Red Pill ExampleSo, I met the "Other Man" today. (self.TheRedPill)

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I showed up at the soccer game today. It was her day with the kids, but I still wanted to be there for my daughter... and to see my boys. Any chance I can get to to be with my kids is a plus. Even though I see them 5 days a week, I'd prefer it to be 7.

I arrived and couldn't find them. It's 100 degrees outside. Ah, there was my youngest boy jumping up and down because he saw me. "Daddy! Daddy!" I ran over and gave him a big hug and kiss, some tickles. He laughed. He asked if we could wrestle. "Not right now. I gotta watch your sister play, buddy!" My oldest boy comes over and tells me about how he was hit in the face with a soccer ball and it was awesome. These boys...

I set my things down, and there she was in front of me, facing the field. I didn't recognize her. Her hair looked extra shitty today. There he was next to her. The other man. Oh shit.

For those that don't know the story, see my other posts. Over a year ago the ex of 15 years left me for the uber alpha male.

I was the sweet one. He was the asshole.
I was the guy who could change a diaper and wipe a butt faster than anyone. He was the guy who could lift a house.
He was the one who convinced my wife to do anal. I was the one who would rub my daughter's head when she cried asking why mama left.

In the past 15 months, I have been daydreaming about this day. Would I stab him in neck with my pocket knife? Would I try to show off my physical attributes? Show him that I'm not a worm? "Man, it's hot... better take off my shirt! Whoa, my pecs are glistening! These abs! So washboard-like!" Would I give him a big speech on how he caused a lot of heart ache for some really great kids? Would I cause a huge scene in front of everyone and go down in soccer field history?

Then I had a good look at him. I sat quiet in thought.

It's not his fault. He's a dude. He stuck his dick in crazy. We've all been there. He got roped in. He's now with a 40 year old woman with three kids. Her best days are waaaay behind her. He'll have to wake up next to a woman that he knows left her three kids and husband when the first whiff of something exciting hit her in the face. He'll learn of her childhood baggage. He'll learn of her addictive/impulsive behaviors... and he'll start asking her about why she spends so much on strange stuff. He'll be where I was in no time. There's no way in hell I would ever want to go back to that point in my life.

I get up from my chair and stand behind him. I say his name. "David?" He turns around and seems a bit surprised. I extend my hand. "It's nice to finally meet you." We shake hands. I go back to my chair.

Poor asshole. He's the real Beta, after all.

[–]lukins 419 points420 points  (39 children)

Thank you for sharing that. Sometimes you have to make a decision about how you choose what perspective to take. You framed a perspective that works for you and you engaged the world to make that a reality.

[–]Grasshopper21 131 points132 points  (22 children)

I don't know why but you saying that just made the whole concept of frame click for me.

[–]enteralterego 25 points26 points  (21 children)

I would still appreciate a ELI5 version of "the frame" to be honest

[–]Dream4eva 106 points107 points  (17 children)

Eh its late but I'll give it a shot:

ELI5: You paint a picture of yourself and hang it on the wall for everyone to see. This picture of you displays your values, beliefs, Ideologies etc.

Some critics show up and will question whether or not this is an authentic painting. "Did you really paint this yourself? How did you do this part here? What does this represent?" (these are tests)

Holding frame is the embodiment of the painting in real life. If you differ from the painting, they'll know you didn't actually paint it. "That's not you, you faker". Once they've figured out that your faking, you lose respect and ultimately value.

[–]EmergedRed 7 points8 points  (10 children)

What a great explanation. Simple to understand. I had an idea what frame means but now it's clear. Thanks.

[–]donit 7 points8 points  (9 children)

Frame is the physical and verbal framework of everything around you that is happening. When a passenger gets into your car, you control the frame because you control what is going to happen.

When an alpha male of the group (AMOG) interrupts a conversation between you and the girl you are talking with, and takes over the conversation/discussion, he is taking over your and the girl's frame. He is controlling the verbal frame by controlling the focus of the conversation, and by doing that he is also controlling the physical frame because out of politeness, the girl is now standing closer to him in order to listen to what he is saying.

Frame is the environmental, logistical pattern around each person that determines their point of view, what direction they are going to "go with the flow", and where their focus is going. It is the picture that they see of the world they are entering and moving through.

When you are alone, you control your own frame. But when two or more people are together and interacting, usually one of them holds the dominant control and the others go along as passengers, or they take turns and share control of the frame.

[–]zeny_two 7 points8 points  (7 children)

An important aspect of controlling frame is disregarding frames that are incompatible with your own.

For example, a plate asks "are you busy tonight?" You aren't especially busy, but her wording is imposing. All logical responses fall into her frame. "Yes" is a lie, "no" will cause her to invite herself over, and explaining yourself isn't good form.

You don't have to respond how she expects. You can give her any ridiculous answer you want. "I'm auditioning for a Korean soap opera" "Building a submarine" "hang gliding with the mayor." Now she has to respond to your playful frame. She can't resist - girls wanna have fun. Even though you're rejecting her, she'll play along and wish you good luck

I think AMOG stands for Alpha Male Other Guy btw

[–]donit 8 points9 points  (3 children)

AMOG was coined by Tyler/Owen to describe when a guy shows up and hijacks your frame in order to make a joke to manhandle/belittle you in front of the girl in order to assert his alpha-ness. The ones I typically run into at bars aren't usually after the girl, they're just asserting their dominance. Identifying them led to the development of AMOG destroyer routines, which I think are well-worth learning so you'll have a straightforward way to shut them down before they succeed in destroying your frame, which is actually what their goal is. Some of the techniques involve flipping the focus back on the AMOG, like complimenting him for being so funny and prompting him to "do it again", "tell us another funny joke or observation", and treating him like a dancing monkey.

Building on your point in an attempt to dig deeper into the definition of frame, frame is the plane of focus that the person who is talking- offers to the listener, and the available, allowable path on which the listener can flow. Sometimes as you said that path that is offered traps you with no possible answer, or comfortable answer.

I've noticed this in texting, when a woman doesn't respond, it was often because the frame I put out for her didn't offer any comfortable channels or routes for her to flow through, and so she would stop responding, unable to respond because she was completely trapped in the frame. The only way to release her was to redo the frame and provide an easier one with easier ways for her to navigate.

I feel we're getting closer and closer to coming up with a complete definition. The frame is something a person in a group provides that determines the route and flow of the focus of the conversation and the activities that will be going on.

[–]CptDefB 5 points6 points  (2 children)

I've noticed this in texting, when a woman doesn't respond, it was often because the frame I put out for her didn't offer any comfortable channels or routes for her to flow through, and so she would stop responding, unable to respond because she was completely trapped in the frame. The only way to release her was to redo the frame and provide an easier one with easier ways for her to navigate.

Oh. Snap.

With this snippet, you've verbalized the observations of my hind brain. Or at least, connected something I knew (the observations) with something still nebulous (frame), and synapses just went, "Well, hello! It's nice to meet you!"

Nicely done. This particular convo string is a sleeper among convo strings. Excellent shit here.

[–]donit 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Much appreciated! It's really exciting to figure these kinds of things out together as a group, and I really wish we could bring everyone along for the ride.

But alas, as you mentioned, for a new concept to stick, it has to connect 2 things you already know, trust, and believe in. I've noticed if a proposed concept requires 2 or more new connections that connect to things you already know, but both connections are unfamiliar and go against your current beliefs, that generally requires too much faith for people to accept, and so whenever that's the case, it gets locked out as implausible.

So I've found for most readers, advanced concepts like these will often sound reckless, doubtful and downright stupid, often inviting a flood of downvotes, disdain and possible deletion as part of the effort to keep things safe and on the straight and narrow, recycling only well-known concepts and phenomena in order to protect against the possibility of misinformation being spread. But as the saying goes, risk is the only route forward and so we have to take risks in order to gain anything new.

[–]donit 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You might be interested in digging deeper into the meaning of frame. Each time you rephrase it and manipulate it through slighhtly reworded examples, it gains more meaning and relates to more and more situations, and just keeps going. Example- for me just rephrasing it again triggers more:

When you frame something for someone, you're packaging it for them. So in a group, one person with a strong personality will play host and package the frame for everyone who is there.

The party host directing every move: "Welcome to my party. How are you feeling tonight? Would like a drink? Come over and say hi to my friend Bob here. He's new to the area. Enjoy yourselves, I'll be back in a few minutes."

All aboard the frame train: Whenever you're picking a girl up, talking with a girl on the phone, or texting a girl, you're taking over her steering wheel and guiding her along her path in life during that part of her day.

[–]heist_of_saint_graft 2 points3 points  (2 children)

AMOG means "Alpha Male of the Group".

[–]Fryguy48 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, it all makes sense now.

[–]tubameister 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is so freaking trippy. I'm so glad I found this subreddit.

[–]mvg210 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Thanks dude 1 coffee /u/changetip

[–]changetip 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The Bitcoin tip for 1 coffee (2.965 mBTC/$1.50) has been collected by Dream4eva.

ChangeTip info | ChangeTip video | /r/Bitcoin

[–]speakeasy2d 21 points22 points  (0 children)


it's long-winded but a great read

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

The other poster's painting metaphor isn't bad, but I'll take a crack.

Think about it like how you might frame a shot when taking a photo. Depending on where you stand, what lens you use, what you focus on, what you crop out, etc. the same physical scene can be portrayed many different ways.

Your frame is similar. It's a matter of how you portray the world, including past, present, and future. I think there are two components: external and internal.

Internal frame is how you present the world to yourself. It's how you spin the past to be a lesson instead of pain, how you spin the present to be full of potential in every moment, how you spin the future to be brighter than the present by way of your own actions. Internal frame is created consciously by you, by actively thinking about how you would have it be, not through spontaneous rationalization (hamstering).

External frame is the projection of your internal frame onto the world. From the internal frame comes your beliefs about how things are; your external frame is how you present those beliefs to others (as necessary), including your emotions, your outlook, your communication and your actions. All of these things should be as consistent with your internal frame as possible.

When TRP advises someone to maintain their frame, they're talking about the external frame, generally within the moment of some interaction with a woman. Self consistency is paramount to making your external frame believable. Self consistency in the external frame comes from both having a really well developed internal frame that is in and of itself consistent, and having experience in knowing how to maintain that frame externally, not backing down or allowing your frame to be damaged by acquiescence the way a beta male would.

Note this doesn't mean being overly insistent, or controlling, or outright manipulative. It just means being consistent, sticking to your guns when challenged, and not allowing yourself to become wishywashy in order to please others.

As for your internal frame, it should always be evolving. You should be able to look back at your internal frame as of a year ago and think about how far you have come as a person in terms of your mental maturity and development. Sometimes, looking back and cringing at yourself is necessary - it's a good sign in that it means you recognize your own past failings and can seek better solutions next time around.

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 10 points11 points  (1 child)

The perspective that your ex is post wall, sliding down faster by the year, and that some other guy is fucking her after she cheated with him, is a good perspective. Being able to fuck 20 year old girls instead of worn out 40 year old pussy that has had three kids shoved through it, is a good thing.

I don't like the guys either of my ex's are with, but it isn't because they are fucking a 41 and 32 year old that I fucked when she was in her 20s, its for other reasons. The first one molested my daughters, so if I liked him what would that make me? The second one lied and set me up using his job to get me thrown in jail for something I didn't do, so that is obvious. I don't care they are fucking post wall bitches. I do feel just a little sad for the second ex, she has really fucked things up, and she was good for me. Can't make choices for her, she has to learn the hard way. The first one worked hard at making her life shit, so she earned it.

The college girls are back in town, next weekend there might be some field reports from the old silverback gorilla.

[–]vendetta_vera 6 points7 points  (12 children)

yeah... that's also the definition of "hamstering"

[–]robesta 37 points38 points  (9 children)

That's an interesting point. My knee jerk reaction is that frame is conscious and self-aware, whereas hamstering is done at an unconscious level and is almost radical self-unawareness. Also frame is a perspective for future actions, whereas hamstering is a rationalization for past actions.