Escaping The Friend Zone

Many men will nod with understanding when reading the following LJBF account from a reader:

I was just on the receiving end of the fastest friend zone in the world. It usually occurs after orbiting a girl for a while and then having her reject a move. This happened before any actual moves.

– Met this girl through a female friend when the 3 of us went to the cinema
– Got her number the same evening, she was very warm and enthusiastic towards me, we exchanged some messages later
– Called her 2 days later and had a chat where she was again the same towards me. Tried to schedule a drink at Thursday, she was busy but offered Saturday instead
– 15 minutes later I get this text from her: “I’m really sorry, I’m not really up for going out, I was in a long relationship until recently. It was very nice in the cinema with you, you’re really pleasant and interesting to talk with, but I understood it only as friendship.”
– My reply 15 minutes later: “Fair enough. I appreciate you telling me, I went through something similar. If you’d like that interesting conversation, feel free to call.”
– Her reply 2 minutes later: “Ok. I’m sorry if I hurt you in any way, I didn’t intend to.”
– My reply 2 minutes later: “Don’t worry, I didn’t propose to you or something 😉 Brave of you to tell me. Enjoy :)”

I tried to signal in my replies that it didn’t really matter because I didn’t do anything except chat with her, but wasn’t going to hang around as a friend. On the other hand, since she was so direct (honest), I didn’t feel the need to counter with bombs like “What, you thought I was hitting on you?” or attempt to salvage.

I guess that even though I approached with no pressure she knew that no guy asks a girl out unless he intends something, and doused it. Whether it was because of her real recent breakup or just a polite way of telling me that she wasn’t interested, I’ll never know. Maybe I should just be proud of putting out enough of a sexy vibe in one hour after the movie, eh?

Regardless, that’s the fastest friend zone I’ve ever seen!

Did this story raise the hairs on the back of your neck? Did you identify with the emailer? The friend zone is like a huge pussy planet with a mighty gravitational pull; your escape velocity needs to be very fast to avoid getting sucked into receiving warm hugs with three pats on the back and listening to boyfriend stories not involving you.

The best way to dodge the friend zone is to refrain from putting yourself in a position in which befriending is possible. That means making it clear to a girl early on that you see her as a sexual conquest waiting to happen. Once befriended, it is very difficult to change her opinion of you to one of potential lover. An ounce of sleaziness is worth a pound of conversion.

If it’s a bang you want, it’s a friendship you don’t want. There are only a few circumstances under which it is feasible to be friends with a girl.

This is not to argue that befriending girls in order to later get in their pants can’t be a successful hookup strategy. If you have the patience of a saint, the fortitude to endure painful blue balls, and the willingness to undertake a high effort endeavor with a small chance of reward, then the friend zone to fuck zone plot ploy is for you. Most men, however, don’t feel they have ten lifetimes to devote to this long-view strategy. Plus, there is the matter of preserving one’s dignity.

The emailer made his move quickly, but without being there to observe his body language and the tone of his conversation, it’s impossible to say whether he made an early impression as a sexual man or as a good-natured friend of a friend. In addition, the context was not ideal for pickup. A girl who meets you through a mutual girl friend is going to mentally box you into the friend zone by association. This is especially true if your girl buddy talked about you in private with her girl friend as if you were the bestest male buddy in the world a girl could hope for. And don’t you just want to squeeze his chipmunk cheeks!

Obviously, when the emailer tried to schedule a later date, she clued in to his intentions. It’s possible she may have known his intentions from the first meeting, but it’s good policy to never underestimate the ability of girls to misread a man’s romantic pursuit. As a defensive measure, girls are adept at missing male sexual overtures. Since most men are on the prowl most of the time, it would make sense for women to behave as if they notice nothing that could shake their coy repose. This is why the best seducers are men who take action to get what they want, rather than men who passively wait for love to fall in their laps.

If it’s true the girl recently left a long relationship, she would likely have welcomed the attention of the emailer, if only for a platonic date with friends. Thus, she may have misled him into believing she was available FOR HIM. (Despite what women say, recent breakups are no impediment to hooking up with a new man if he is an alpha.) It’s a common mistake for men to enter contrived social scenarios (as this emailer’s was) and attempt to capitalize on the good fortune of being thrust into the company of an attractive girl. But quick pickups rarely happen that way, unless you are obviously higher value than your target. Girls don’t like going on dates with men who take advantage of infrequent forced social arrangements, particularly if her friends are watching. A few days later, she may have even felt some resentment toward the emailer for assuming she would be interested just because he’s a friend of her friend.

It is also possible, although not as likely, that she was turned on by the emailer and stomped on the brakes before the flirting spun out of control. Some girls don’t trust themselves after a breakup; sex is a quick and dirty way to rejuvenate the ailing female ego. But this is more of female rationalization than anything else. There are too many women who will monkey swing from one alpha cock to another to buy into that line of thinking.

Once she knows you’re interested, there’s no backpedaling without making yourself look like a tool. “You thought I was hitting on you?” will sound pathetically transparent to even the stupidest girls. The emailer avoided doing that, but his chosen responses weren’t much better. “Fair enough” is beta mincemeat. Where is the teasing? The cocky attitude? “Fair enough” is what you say to your neighbor when you are arguing over a property line assessment.

Better reply (a few hours later): “Wow, you sound like a soap opera. Drama queen!”

Or don’t reply at all. There’s nothing like a non-reply to rev up a hamster in distress.

And for fuck’s sake, don’t suggest she call you “if you’d like that interesting conversation”. She just blew you off and you’re rewarding her with your time? For crying out loud, dude. Sack up!

Also, whenever a girl says “I’m sorry if I hurt you in any way” (and let’s face it, men, these words are like fingernails on a chalkboard to us), the worst response is “Don’t worry.” Why let her off the hook with exactly what she wants to hear? Play with the condescending bitch a little bit. Better answer: “Oh LORDY my heart… it is exploding! However shall I go on?!”

“Bravo of you to tell me”?!? *gag* RTFA.





Comments


  1. First? Wow.

    Like


  2. First! Damn 😀

    Those sound like great examples of how to still remain flirty and teasing after the blowout without being cheesy. Very balanced!

    Like


  3. I agree.

    The responses were horrible.

    Where was the teasing? The cocky attitude?

    Guys try to play it straight up too much with chicks. No need for any of that.

    Like


  4. on November 16, 2010 at 3:12 pm greatbooksformen GBFM

    15 minutes later I get this text from her: “I’m really sorry, I’m not really up for going out, I was in a long relationship until recently. It was very nice in the cinema with you, you’re really pleasant and interesting to talk with, but I understood it only as friendship.”
    – My reply 15 minutes later: “yah i understand that you miss the lotsa cocka in all da orfices lzozlzozlzozoz bent over the couch up aaginst the wall and i’m not lookng fro anything but like maybe my cocka can help fill teh void for a vfew days beofre your next long-term asscocking partnrt en route to eitehr lotsa cats spinsterhood or some beta chump buying u a ring even after u gave the best years away 4 free when you were younger hotter tighter lzozlzozozlzozo. so whatya say? lostsa cockas 2nite? lzozlzl.”

    Like


  5. Like most guys, this guy fucks up by using too many words.

    Text messages should include 90%:
    * Cool.
    * OK.
    * All good.
    * Sweet.
    * Bring the movies.

    That’s it. Anything more just leads to fuck ups.

    Like


  6. I’d send her a pic of my cock and show her what she’d be missing. Stay classy my friends.

    Like


  7. Seriously, where is everyone?

    I hate reading these LJBF stories because they bring up flashbacks that will haunt me for the rest of the day.

    Like


  8. on November 16, 2010 at 3:16 pm greatbooksformen GBFM

    15 minutes later I get this text from her: “I’m really sorry, I’m not really up for going out, I was in a long relationship until recently. It was very nice in the cinema with you, you’re really pleasant and interesting to talk with, but I understood it only as friendship.”
    – My reply 15 minutes later: “bring da movies zlzoozo”

    Like


  9. The blunt counter-proposition used to work pretty well for me on a time delay. Don’t try this at home if you tend to come off creepy or bitter.

    Girl: “blah blah blah LJBF blah blah”

    P: “That’s too bad, I just wanted to fuck you tonight”

    Girl: “blah blah blah”

    P: “ok bye”

    Weeks, occasionally months, rarely but sweetly hours, later:

    Girl: “come over and fuck me”

    Yes, you must ignore her and avoid contact and all that in the meantime. And yes, you must pump and dump, or she will try to start the LJBF thing or more annoying games (‘let’s you and my boyfriend fight’ is not an uncommon reason for a booty call) all over again.

    You can substitute just about any nookie-avoidance-drama for LJBF in the above, btw.

    Like


  10. Women have boyfriends and girlfriends. If you’re not fucking her, you’re her girlfriend.

    Like


  11. “Fair enough. I appreciate you telling me, I went through something similar. If you’d like that interesting conversation, feel free to call.”

    If that didn’t seal the LJBF deal, I don’t know what did.

    Like


  12. “If it’s a bang you want, it’s a friendship you don’t want.”

    It’s as simple as that. The converse is also true, i.e. if it’s friendship you want, avoid the sexzone. The natural question then becomes, what’s the value of the friendzone? For married men, the answer is obvious. For co-workers, the same. For unmarried men, it’s much less clear.

    Like


  13. This person may be a reader, but he is not an understander/believer. How can anyone who reads this blog reply with those sad beta responses?

    Your time and attention is valuable. If you don’t value your own time by offering to have “interesting conversation,” then why would any girl? Those messages can be summed up in two words: use me.

    Just ugh.

    Like


  14. roissey – the response of girls to apologise by default is also an the final ego trip for them, for them its like having the final word. Girls by default are amoral creatures, especially in the dating world. Shes not sorry but she wants you to give some faggy reponse for you to show all the investment she has in you so far. Ive had this couple of times. Best reponse is ignore it – a bit gay, or just say “its ok nothing to be sorry for??” or even “whats there to be sorry about?” and then ignore all subsequents from her. Im not sure the ‘escalate and amlify response works so well here – it feeds the rationalization hamster and believe it or not a lot of them will take that response at face value from you and cream their panties about giving the field report to your mutual friend. Thats why with these types of escalation you need to ramp up the kino/sexual tension straight away (in fact, thinking about it; this is the response you should be giving 90% of the time anyway). You simply cant try the softly softly approach in this situation and expect any success.

    Like


  15. I’m not so sure I like “Wow, you sound like a soap opera. Drama queen!” much better than “You thought I was hitting on you?” Both come off as a guy (desperately) trying to save face.

    Better might be, “That’s okay. You just seemed like my girlfriend’s type, so I thought the three of us might hit it off.”

    I don’t object to, “Fair enough,” by the way. Granted, it’s not alpha, but it sounds like the sex ship has sailed anyway. So since conversation on Saturday was pleasant, there’s no harm in being the “nice guy.” Life doesn’t always have to be about bagging chicks.

    Like


  16. Why did this guy get LJBF’d? I bet there was no teasing at little group get together…no drinking either…so no rapport or fun.

    His text after LJBF is obviously bad. Notice that the beta-bait Saturday night date was set too.

    The girl texting “Ok. I’m sorry if I hurt you in any way, I didn’t intend to.” That is just a little too much, would make we want to reply, in internet hero land, “the hell? did I come off as a pussy?”

    Like


  17. One other thing, maybe it’s just me, but her “Ok. I’m sorry if I hurt you in any way, I didn’t intend to.” response is soooo far over the top that I think she’s trying to convince herself that she’s some sort of heartbreaker. My guess is there are some psycho elements to this girl.

    Like


  18. Just a thought people, but rather than fumbling looking for the right words, a cocky attitude speaks for itself. It is usually self generating. A good rule of thumb is to simply be cocky. Cocky does not reply “yeah well, no problem”, it replies “Who is this again?”

    Like


  19. on November 16, 2010 at 3:29 pm Days of Broken Arrows

    I feel bad for the guy. But after her “I’m really sorry…” message, his only response should have been total silence.

    I assume she was really hot to get him as interested as he was, but she sound like a bitch, sorry to say. Too much entitlement in her replies.

    Like


  20. on November 16, 2010 at 3:32 pm greatbooksformen GBFM

    15 minutes later I get this text from her: “I’m really sorry, I’m not really up for going out, I was in a long relationship until recently. It was very nice in the cinema with you, you’re really pleasant and interesting to talk with, but I understood it only as friendship.”
    – My reply 15 minutes later: “dude–i’m not for ghoing out eitherlzozozozl just wanna fuck n suck lzozozlzl let teh beats buy you dinner going sot shixizniht lzozlz”

    Like


  21. The medium IS the message.

    I hate the term ‘Mixed Signals/Messages’. More often than not there’s nothing ‘Mixed’ being communicated and rather it’s a failure (willful or not) to read what a woman is communicating. The average guy tends to ‘get’ exactly what a woman has implied with her words, but it takes practice to read her behavior and then more practice in self-control to apply it to his own. When a girl goes from hot to cold and back again, THIS IS the message – she’s got buyers remorse, you’re not her first priority, she’s deliberating between you and what she perceives is a better prospect, you were better looking when she was drunk, etc. – the message isn’t the ‘what ifs’, the message IS her own hesitation and how her behavior manifests it. 10 dates before sex? This IS the message. Canceling dates? This IS the message.

    Women with high interest levels wont confuse you. When a woman wants to fuck she’ll find a way to fuck. If she’s fluctuating between being into you and then not, put her away for a while and spin other plates. If she sorts it out for herself and pursues you, then you are still playing in your frame and you maintain the value of your attention to her. It’s when you patiently wile away your time wondering what the magic formula is that’ll bring her around, that’s when you lean over into her frame. You need her more than she needs you and she will dictate the terms of her attention.

    What most guys think are ‘mixed messages’ or confusing behavior coming from a woman is simply due to their inability (for whatever reason) to make an accurate interpretation of why she’s behaving in such a manner. Usually this boils down to a guy getting so wrapped up in a girl that he’d rather make concessions for this behavior than see it for what it really is. In other words, it’s far easier to call it ‘mixed messages’ or fall back on the old chestnut of how fickle and random women are, when in fact it’s simply a rationale to keep themselves on the hook, so to speak, because they lack any real, viable, options with other women in their lives. A woman that has a high IL in a guy has no need (and less motivation) to engage in behaviors that would possibly compromise her status with him. Women of all ILs will shit test, and men will pass or fail accordingly, but a test is more easily recognizable when you have the breadth of experience that comes from reading her behaviors.

    Like


  22. the foundation for friendzone was laid in the 2 day later chat. the cringe-worthy beta responses just sealed the fate.

    Like


  23. on November 16, 2010 at 3:39 pm greatbooksformen GBFM

    “Got her number the same evening, she was very warm and enthusiastic towards me, we exchanged some messages later
    – Called her 2 days later and had a chat where she was again the same towards me. Tried to schedule a drink at Thursday, she was busy but offered Saturday instead.”

    lozozozozozoz do not CALL A CHICK 2 DAYS LATER!!!!

    eiotehr lose the number or text her “lotsa cokas?”

    then if she texts you back “WTF?” say “oops wrong number, but maybe we can hang some otehrt ime. lozozl”

    Like


  24. Roissy, good explanations. I think this explains a recent flake I had, a friend of a mutual friend that I met at the mutual friend’s party. Never saw it coming.

    Like


  25. ahh rollo from so suave – we spoke couple of years ago on.im about a girl in similar circumstances to this one. Hope your well.

    Like


  26. 15 minutes later I get this text from her: “I’m really sorry, I’m not really up for going out, I was in a long relationship until recently. It was very nice in the cinema with you, you’re really pleasant and interesting to talk with, but I understood it only as friendship.”

    Me, 30 minutes later: Cool.

    Look, guys, this shit is simple. The fucking cunt it not actually sorry. Women cannot feel remorse. She is tossing out beta bait to see if she was right to keep your beta ass in friend zone.

    One-word responses are best. It keeps bitches guessing. Their little minds race with trifling thoughts. It’s also insulting.

    Women have said, after receiving my one-word reply to their long e-mails or texts, “That’s it?!”

    Yes. That’s it. You’re only worth one word.

    I’ll write long-winded shit to my guy friends – and even to beta pussies trying to better themselves on Internet forums. Men are amenable to logic and reason, and thus deserving of words.

    Women, being emotional animals, will have their emotions manipulated. Fewer words are better than more. Some slut gets one word, and I’ve turned around many “friends” with one-word game.

    Emotional vacancy creates a vacuum. Women and nature abhor a vacuum. Make that bitch fill it.

    Like


  27. “Women have boyfriends and girlfriends. If you’re not fucking her, you’re her girlfriend.”

    This is pure gold and should be spread widely and well beyond the manosphere.

    Like


  28. Rollo:

    Great insight.

    Like


  29. The best response for any type of break or LJBF–whether it’s something as quick as this or an ending of a two year relationship–is agree and amplify.

    “I was just thinking the same thing myself.” If anything was to be salvaged, it will be salvaged this way.

    For a guy who is used to being aggressive with women, meeting a friend through a friend is actually a tricky situation. You can’t be as risky with her because, unlike a stranger, you don’t want to risk creeping her out or burning bridges. So your choices of action are a bit muted.

    Like


  30. ” I understood it only as friendship.”

    Response: Yup. That’s why it’s drinks and not dinner.

    Like


  31. Personally, i’d just not respond. If I had to write back, it would probably be along the lines of “*eyeroll* what-eva blood.”

    Like


  32. evil alpha has the best reponse. Brilliant

    Like


  33. No response required. Next.

    Like


  34. “Despite what women say, recent breakups are no impediment to hooking up with a new man if he is an alpha”

    As a woman, I completely disagree with this statement. I think this is true for men (recent breakups are no hinderance to a man hooking up with a new girl, if she’s a 10) but not for women.

    In my experience, any girl that is worth dating (my meaning: capable of strongly bonding with her boyfriend) will go through a refractory period after a breakup where she’s still strongly bonded to the ex. During that time, the idea of anything more than gentle flirtation with another man is as abhorrent as when she was in the relationship.

    I’ve observed (and experienced) this to be the case even when the girl initiates the breakup or when she’s recently broken up with a man of lesser status than the new man persuing her.

    Of course, this is only happens after long term relationships in which she loved him!

    Like


  35. I never read the comments closely, but Rollo has at least two golden responses here.

    One of the best ways to break out of the LJBF box (assuming you couldn’t/didn’t avoid it in the first place) is to go get another girl. There’s nothing like a little competition to get a woman to leave LJBF behind. A girl faced with the prospect of losing her male attention-giver to another girl who puts out will often put out just to keep him there.

    Stay cocky/funny, but don’t blow the girl off. Keep that iron in the fire until it gets hot again.

    Like


  36. I’ve been in the friend zone. It is possible to get out of it if you were in fact a genuine friend and not an orbiter, but usually you have to have dated another girl in the meantime which forces the girl who LJBF’d you to contemplate that you do in fact have a functional Y chromosome.

    The girl I was friends with was just about the hottest in her year at my school (the hottest in her year in her dorm, for sure), and the fact that I was in her company so much did wonders for my rep because so many assumed we were actually a romantic item. Looking back, I can see 2 or 3 opportunities where I could have vaulted right out of the friend zone with an alpha move at the right time (not possible with all girls who LJBF you but in this case there were special circumstances). I’m glad I didn’t though, because she had an entitled, self-centered streak which got worse as she got older, it wouldn’t have worked out and I might have missed my shot at the girl I met the next year (and married the year after that).

    If you are not really friends with the girl and have no real connection with her as a friend, hanging around as an orbiter is a bad idea; but there’s nothing wrong with having an actual friendship with a girl who is not interested in you sexually, as long as you don’t have one-itis for her and don’t let feelings for her prevent you in any way from pursuing other girls. If you are determined to pursue her romantically though, you need to establish some distance, either by having another girlfriend first or simply getting out of the picture (or else taking the risk of going into shock-and-awe alpha mode and overpowering her, which will either work or end the friendship).

    The other kind of “friend zone” is where you already are attached to someone else but want to be friends with a girl who is actually attracted to you. This is dangerous; it is possible if your current relationship is very good, but the hotter and more compatible the girl is, the better your current relationship has to be to risk it.

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  37. Women can tell what’s on your mind just by the way you look at them. Use this. Smile at their prattle with something else lightly on your mind. Be fine with what’s being said, but don’t empathize. Make contrarian game amusing. And so on. This guy obviously didn’t leave the impression that he was sexually worth her risk, and that impression was created earlier than the betatexts.

    @kmr

    “In my experience, any girl that is worth dating (my meaning: capable of strongly bonding with her boyfriend) will go through a refractory period after a breakup where she’s still strongly bonded to the ex.”

    So the guy in Roissy’s post was perceived as her ex’s rival. You’re saying there is no way he, or any man, could have overcome this?

    Not true in my experience at all.

    Like


  38. on November 16, 2010 at 4:12 pm greatbooksformen GBFM

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    lzozzlozzoolzzlzolzozzozozozlzzol

    Like


  39. the Y chromosome

    Here’s a illustration of all this for you young boys out there:

    Y is the Y chromosome. Elmo is the girlfriend. Y would be alpha if it weren’t for his stupid apology.

    Sex-a-me Street at Roissy’s. You’re welcome.

    Like


  40. polymathblogger

    I’ve been in the friend zone. It is possible to get out of it if you were in fact a genuine friend and not an orbiter, but usually you have to have dated another girl in the meantime which forces the girl who LJBF’d you to contemplate that you do in fact have a functional Y chromosome.

    The girl I was friends with was just about the hottest in her year at my school (the hottest in her year in her dorm, for sure), and the fact that I was in her company so much did wonders for my rep because so many assumed we were actually a romantic item.

    Let me guess: she’s rumanian

    Like


  41. One of your gems that I frequently use in this situation:

    “Good luck!”

    I used it on a girl recently when she blew me off saying that she had a bf, she messaged me soon after for a hearty banging.

    Like


  42. As for saving face/trying to salvage it, the only thing you can do at this point is try to convey that you weren’t shaken by her LJBF proposal. Which sounds simple enough in theory, but can be quite tricky to pull off via text message. The appropriate response should be calibrated to the type of girl you’re talking to. For a girl who seems fairly articulate, such as the one in the reader’s email, roissy’s sarcastic reply might yield positive results, but don’t underestimate the average girl’s complete inability to detect even the most blatant, obvious sarcasm in a text message. Likewise, depending largely on the nature of your interaction with the girl up to LJBF, many might interpret complete silence/one word game as them having gotten to you.

    As a general rule of thumb though, one-two word game is probably your best bet. In fact, you should always keep your text messages as short as possible, so that no matter what happens, you always seem aloof anyway. Congruence is key.

    Like


  43. 5 minutes later I get this text from her: “I’m really sorry, I’m not really up for going out, I was in a long relationship until recently. It was very nice in the cinema with you, you’re really pleasant and interesting to talk with, but I understood it only as friendship.”

    “Friendship? Eff that, I’m trying to get in them jeans.”

    Stop being a pussy, who cares if you get rejected–real men don’t give a shit, in my head this is a shit-test. Girls know you want to fuck them, It’s their default setting, unless you make it clear that you don’t wanna fk em.

    So don’t beat around the bush, if you’re trying to stick it. Say so, she say no?, next ho.

    Like


  44. … I think this explains a recent flake I had, a friend of a mutual friend that I met at the mutual friend’s party. Never saw it coming.

    @Rookie
    It’s not the degrees of separation that caused your fail. I’ve banged plenty of friends of a mutual friend… because that mutual friend and thus all her friends know me as the guy that whips his cock on crowded streets, screws waitresses, loves tequila and is a general hell raiser. You however are probably known as your mutual friend’s little brother.

    If your mutual friend isn’t PR and gaming for you, then what good is she? The girls at the party ought to know you by reputation; otherwise you are doing something wrong. There is little sweeter to my ears than when a brand new girl, says Hi. “I know who you are.” It’s a very polite way of her saying… please bang me in the ass.

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  45. “if you’re trying to stick it. Say so, she say no?, next ho.”

    Bumper sticker material.

    There is little sweeter to my ears than when a brand new girl, says Hi. “I know who you are.” It’s a very polite way of her saying… please bang me in the ass.

    Another maxim.

    Like


  46. Women have used the LJBF rejection for a hundred years because it serves an ego preservation function for her. To a greater or lesser degree, women require attention and the more they have of it the more affirmation they experience, both personally and socially. The LJBF rejection is a social convention that has classically ensured a woman can reject a man yet still maintain his previous attention. It also puts the responsibility for the rejection back on his shoulders since, should he decline the ‘offer of friendship’, he is then responsible for entertaining this ‘friendship’.

    This of course has the potential to backfire on women these days since the standard AFC will accept an LJBF rejection in the mistaken hope of ‘proving’ himself worthy of her intimacy by being the perfect ‘surrogate boyfriend’ – fulfiling all her attention and loyalty prerequisites with no expectation of reciprocating her own intimacy.

    The LJBF rejection also serves as an ego preservation for her in that having offered the false olive branch of ‘friendship’ to him in her rejection she can also sleep that night knowing that she (and any of her peers) wont think any less of herself. After all, she offered to be friends, right? She is excused from any feelings of personal guilt or any responsibilities for his feelings if she still wants to remain amiable with him.

    The default response should be to take the LJBF as what it is, a rejection, (and her loss) ergo you remove the behavioral reinforcer – attention. Up until the point you made an approach for her intimacy she was enjoying the benefit of your attentions. After an LJBF response her latent intent is to keep that reinforcer of attention. Do not reward her for this disingenuous response, she will only use it on you again or with another guy in a similar situation since it was reinforced the last time this circumstance was experienced. And should the next fellow reinforce it further she will internalize this as her standard response.

    The best way to enact this is to use a takeaway and turn down her LJBF. An outright refusal of her psuedo-friendship offer would be ideal, but not always possible given social settings, however a takeaway is always warranted. Most women, whether serious or not in their LJBF rejection, will almost always follow up with some kind of communication when you do remove your previous attentions and like most animals when faced with a behavioral extinction, she will attempt to re-establish that reward. This is why if you do end up cutting all contact with her she will have a tendency to pursue – and depending on the individual sometimes more actively pursue – your attention, even if she has no intent of becoming intimate with a guy. Women do this in an effort to maintain self-affirmation (i.e. she wants to verify everything is ‘OK’ between you and her in an email or IM) after a rejection.

    Like


  47. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1327282/How-middle-class-mother-Tunbridge-Wells-stupid.html

    How could she fall in love with a foreigner on the internet and then, despite his many and obvious lies, entrust him with £40,000, money she will never see again?

    In fairness, Caroline, now 54, has the honesty and intelligence to talk about her motives and the loneliness which is at the root of her current predicament. Similar to many women of her age, with two failed marriages behind her, she badly wanted the comfort of a relationship. ‘What woman doesn’t worry about growing older?’ she asks. ‘It’s not just about looks. Confidence evaporates. Builders no longer wolf-whistle. When you have always attracted men, invisibility hits hard. I still craved that special someone to say, “Want a cup of tea? Let’s have a cuddle,” ’ she says. ‘It is not about sex, but togetherness.’

    So when, in August last year, Caroline came across Match.com, a high-profile dating website, the temptation to sign up was overwhelming. At first she was conservative…but she soon found that her ‘dates’ were on the cautious side, too.‘There was never that spark,’ she explains, flicking at the pink tips of her bleached blonde crop. ‘I began to find men my age too old for me. I don’t feel like a woman in her 50s. I fight it. I’ve had a gastric band and a facelift.’

    Then she came across a man she calls Sab, who seemed so very different from the run-of-the-mill men she had been meeting. ‘I call him Sab because, when he first advertised on the site, he called himself Sabastine Roland. He used a fake picture and posed as a Greek…Caroline accepts that even the earliest signs were dubious. ‘I challenged him about it but he laughed,’ says Caroline. For all his obvious lies, she found him attractive. ‘We messaged and emailed every day.’

    ‘Love changes everything. We seemed to have so much in common. We were both risk-takers. More importantly, he seemed so much stronger than me. I’d never had that. Both my ex-husbands were weak, which was perhaps why those marriages didn’t last.’

    They arranged to meet in South Africa, a neutral country from where Sab could organise the ‘deal’ and where Caroline could organise the facelift she had wanted for some time. She says: ‘After a few hiccups with Sab’s visa – I paid for his flight, of course, all the while thinking, “scam, scam scam” but doing it anyway – I got there. I got off the plane in Johannesburg, churning, sweating, feeling like a teenager. I went through Arrivals, trying desperately to look cool. There he was, beaming and waving. We fell into each other’s arms. We kissed, we sobbed. I had never been so happy since giving birth to my first child.

    ‘We had breakfast in the airport, then went to a hotel. I gave him presents. He cried. I showered. We talked. “God, you’re so beautiful,” he kept saying. “You only look 30.” It was all I needed to hear. One thing led to another. It was so intimate. I’d never experienced anything like it before. I knew this was true love. I almost wish now that it HAD been just sex, but it wasn’t.

    ‘All I know is that I’ve never felt so much emotion as with this man. I was so desperate to be loved that I’d believe almost anything. He had an explanation for everything,’ she says. ‘I believed him because I was madly in love with him. I still am. After all that I’ve lost, half of me trusts him’

    Like


  48. there’s something that almost no one says when conversations about the friend zone come up, but should be painfully obvious: for the most part women make terrible friends. i’ve had my share of female friends, but they are almost never on the level of my male friendsips and maintaining them requires almost as much game as would having a girlfriend.

    notice that when a woman gives the friend speech to some poor bastard, she almost always talks about what a great guy he is and how his friendship means so much to her. of course, as soon as she receives the attention of a suitably alpha prospect, she’ll ditch the AFC in a hearbeat.

    think about it this way, when a man gets in a relationship and stops hanging out with his friends he’s called pussywhipped. when a women gets in a relationship and stops hanging out with her friends she’s called… well, she’s not called anything cause that’s the norm.

    not all men stick to the ‘bros before hos’ ethic, but there isn’t even a comparable standard for women to aspire to. it’s very seldom that i see women form the kind of legit friendships that happen among men. it does happen, but it’s not the norm.

    Like


  49. Rollo Tomassi

    Women have used the LJBF rejection for a hundred years

    Damn: one hundred whole years. That’s a pretty long time.

    Like


  50. on November 16, 2010 at 4:49 pm greatbooksformen GBFM

    – 15 minutes later I get this text from her: “I’m really sorry, I’m not really up for going out, I was in a long relationship until recently. It was very nice in the cinema with you, you’re really pleasant and interesting to talk with, but I understood it only as friendship.”
    – My reply 15 minutes later: “Friendship? lzoozlzzl Why would l want to be friends with a temptress fucking and sucking dudes outside of wedlock?”

    Like


  51. Women have used the LJBF rejection for a hundred years because it serves an ego preservation function for her.

    chris rock had a bit where he says that to women a platonic male friend is just a dick in a glass jar. i would amend that to:

    to a woman, a platonic alpha male friend is dick in a glass jar. a platonic beta male friend is a compliment/shoulder to cry on/dinner date in a jar.

    remember that and act accordingly.

    Like


  52. Women have used the LJBF rejection for a hundred years because it serves an ego preservation function for her.

    chris rock had a bit where he says that to women a platonic male friend is just a dick in a glass jar. i would amend that to:

    to a woman, a platonic alpha male friend is dick in a glass jar. a platonic beta male friend is a compliment/shoulder to cry on/dinner date in a jar.

    remember that and act accordingly.

    Like


  53. Going to a movie with two girl is Beta Heaven.

    Its like saying I wouldnt mind gayness.

    Solution: drop some pussy or booty jokes with a wink; then suggest shots or your photo collection at home…

    Like


  54. Sorry to be so lengthy, but I have written extensively on the LJBF rejection on SoSuave and rationalmale.com Hopefully this is useful to readers here.

    Most guys get a LJBF rejection because of a process. These are the “friends first” mindset guys; the guys who put far too much emphasis on a solitary woman and wait her out until the perfect moment to attempt to escalate to intimacy, at which point her most comfortable rejection is to LJBF. This is made all the more easy for her because of the process the guy used to get to that point.

    Most guys (not all) who get to the point of a LJBF rejection come to it because they fall in line with a Sniper mentality. They wait for their one target, constantly attempting to prove their merit in doing so – meaning they emphasize a comfort level and try to be friends before lovers. In essence they believe that desexualizing themselves will make them more attractive (by virtue of not being like “other guys”) because they’ve bought into the idea that a woman must be comfortable with them first before they initiate intimacy. Once the AFC gets to a point where he’s mustered enough courage to initiate, and he feels she ‘should’ be comfortable enough to appreciate him as BF material, the Sniper takes his shot.

    The problem with this process is that it bypasses essential stages of attraction and the necessary discomfort and sexual tension necessary for intimacy and proceeds directly to a warm familiar, comfortable, rapport the exact opposite of arousal. If you think about this in terms of sex, this is the stage right after climax when she wants to cuddle, spoon and be wrapped up in her nice, secure oxytocin induced comfort. This the opposite of the testosterone fueled, sweaty, anxious and uncomfortable stage of arousal and intercourse before that release. So in terms of “friendship” and the Sniper mentality, you’ve skipped arousal and gone straight to comfort. You’re perceived as a stuffed animal she can hug and then put back on the bed. Thus, when that previously platonic stuffed animal uncharacteristically gets a hard-on and says “I think we ought to be intimate” her reaction is to think that everything you’ve done for her up to that point has been a grand ruse. My God, all you wanted was sex this whole time?

    Her most predictable response is then the LJBF rejection. The field has already been tilled by you, it’s only one, very easy step for her to stay in that suspended comfort – “lets still be friends”. And then the cycle repeats. The AFC believes the LJBF is a genuine offer (not a rejection) and then falls back into the Sniper mentality. He mustn’t have been convincing enough to prove his worth to her and therefore returns to further proving himself as the perfect BF until he once again presses his intent of intimacy after another period. All this goes on apace until she becomes intimate with a BF and/or he acquires a new target after realizing his efforts with the LJBF girl aren’t bearing fruit.

    The problem with the “advice” IQQI offers here is that she would cast doubt on whether a LJBF rejection is in fact a rejection and not a genuine offer of friendship. To which I’ll say that the only reason this is such a common issue among men & women for so long is because it’s been repeated so regularly and the outcome so predictable as a rejection. A woman’s behavior is always the only gauge of her intent, and thus when a rejection like LJBF has been so consistently met with the same outcome and behavior (as evidenced by thousands of identical stories on SS alone) it’s only prudent for a Man to behave in kind.

    A man’s default response should always be to excuse him from the LJBF situation. The reason for this is because it serves his best interest whether she is testing him or is rejecting him. If he is confident enough in himself to walk away from the sexually tense environment, he proves himself as decisive enough to put himself above being ‘played’ like this. Ergo, he leaves her with the impression that he is the PRIZE, possibly has contacts with better prospective women and is confident enough to take away his attentions from her and thus passes her sh!t test while placing the responsibility of a re-connection on her (where it should be anyway). If she has in fact had a change of heart (her prerogative, remember?) and is using the LJBF as a means to reject him, he still benefits from all of the above and plants the ‘seed of doubt’ in her about her initial estimation of his acceptability for her intimacy. And even if she is truly not interested in the guy, he walks away on his feet and not his knees, by playing “friend” with her and wasting still more time that could be far better spent with more productive prospects.

    It is really one of the few win-win situations for a guy to make a wholesale withdrawal of his attentions when he is confronted with an LJBF. Women know all too well how an LJBF places social pressure on a guy to accept what basically amounts to an ultimatum of negative social proof, and that’s a hell of a sh!t test no matter what her real intent is. If the guy turns down her offer of friendship, he’s the d!ickhed, not her. But the guy that can do what common sense and gut instinct points out to him will be the one to succeed, with her, other women and himself.

    Human being’s natural inclination is to avoid confrontation. When a man makes an approach to intimacy with a woman this becomes confrontational. If she is unsure of a man’s sexual acceptability for her intimacy she must resort to psycho-social, learned behaviors to diffuse this confrontation. Preferably these techniques should be reinforced beforehand and proven to diffuse just such a confrontation, thus the LJBF response is acted out through generations of women across many different cultures – quite simply it works more often than not. You can also apply this to women who not-so-nonchalantly weave into their conversation that they have a boyfriend in an early effort to diffuse a potential suitor’s interests. It’s basically a proactive LJBF rejection.

    It’s the guy who is unwilling to accept these conventions that makes the most lasting impressions of confidence with women. It goes against what our common human heritage dictates for us – avoid conflict, don’t make waves, be her friend, etc. By not accepting a LJBF you emphatically make known that you are good at confrontation, you have an understanding of her motives and you’re confident enough in yourself to make it known. Not only does this impress her with potential for security provision it also implies future confidence. The problem for most guys is enacting this and making it a default behavior when our biology would have us move away from conflict rather than engage in an unacceptable social dynamic that is subtly damaging to his own interests.

    Like


  55. “Wow, you sound like a soap opera. Drama queen!” much better than “You thought I was hitting on you?”

    Both of these are awful responses – as a text message, this will be read by her as the guy being upset and lashing out. Any type of wise-ass response will not come off well because of the context of the situation…him wanting something from her and being rejected.

    The original response – “Don’t worry, I didn’t propose to you or something” would’ve have been perfect, if he just left it at that and dropped all contact with her. But, he screwed up by following up with the self flagellating offer to be the friend zone – which was cringe worthy.

    Mystery had it correct when he said most guy’s errors with women are due to incorrect sequencing. First attraction, then comfort, then seduction. Dates are for seduction, they occur after you have her attracted and comfortable with you. The emailer clearly didn’t have attraction yet and was already jumping to the date. Not that it’s impossible to go back a step and generate the attraction once you’re on the date, but that’s starting at a disadvantage. Had he worked it properly, she’d been the one who wanted to go out and she wouldn’t have pre-emptively rejected his date offer.

    Another thing… notice that the girl had frame control – so much so, that she assumed her rejection of his date offer would devastate him emotionally. How much higher is her self percieved market value than this guy? It would be funny, if it wasn’t the situation that almost all women operate from that perspective in their dealings with men. That frame has to taken from her, even after being rejected for the date. An unaffected dismissal of her rejection as nothing exceptional would help with that. Following it up by dating another girl and making sure the mutual friend knows it and talks about it to her would cement it and leave her wondering. Though that’s not always possible.

    Like


  56. on November 16, 2010 at 5:22 pm greatbooksformen GBFM

    lzoozozzl women want money from every man
    and sperm from one or two

    so if you are nice you fall into the every man money place
    if you are aloof you become the sperm

    basically if you are nice to a woman she considers she already got paid without having to give you anything

    so don’t be nice….

    ever note how women want to keep going form bar to bar instead of going home and porking rigt away?

    well it is alalogous to life they want as many free drinks befofre giving it up lzozozolzolzoz

    Like


  57. That was painful reading. I felt like I had been transported back in time to when I was a teenager. Ugh.

    Like


  58. comfort without attraction = LJBF. What did the e-mailer do to generate attraction during that movie date (granted, very difficult)? through game or raw magnetism? probably nothing. Don’t set up a date or start texting until you’ve set the hook right. otherwise you are setting yourself up for LJBF pain.

    Like


  59. on November 16, 2010 at 5:26 pm greatbooksformen GBFM

    – 15 minutes later I get this text from her: “I’m really sorry, I’m not really up for going out, I was in a long relationship until recently. It was very nice in the cinema with you, you’re really pleasant and interesting to talk with, but I understood it only as friendship.”
    me: “oops i understood it as only benefits lzozllzll”

    Like


  60. Some of my female friends would also write the sentence “im sorry i hurt your feelings” i am stunned to see that, as i see it, and as i try to explain for them, that this comment actually is an auto grading about themselves, to feel better, poor guy like me so much etc. Not really true feeling because if she would really feel slightly sorry for the guy she is rejecting she would not write that. Even if it would be true, so wrong to tell, making the rejection even worse. It is somehow better to pretend as the guy wasn’t seeming so interested, and help him save face.

    Like


  61. @ Mike – brilliant stuff.

    Like


  62. (This is my first time ever commenting on a post after almost 2 years of faithful readership, so forgive me if I repeat what anyone else has already said)

    As someone who has put guys in the friend zone too many times to count, I have to say the writer played it all wrong – he made it far too easy for her. When letting a guy down, that’s the exact response you want. Unless you’re shittesting, in which, the answer was all wrong.

    She either had something else going on with someone hotter/richer/alpha-er, or he just wasn’t up to snuff, which is why he got the brush off. After he asked her out for drinks, she immediately rolled out the drama wagon and read more “emotionally” into his intentions than was real. With his nonchalant forgiveness, she most likely assumed that he wanted her so badly, he’d stick around despite her rejection, even if it was just a phone call. It fed her the right amount of ego nutrients, so she felt the need to “apologize” for breaking his poor little heart.

    Everyone’s comments about the one word replies are exactly correct. If he had just replied with ‘cool’, or the infinitely superior “that’s why it’s drinks, and not dinner”, she’d have changed her tune. I guarantee it.

    DO NOT MAKE IT EASY FOR THEM TO LET YOU DOWN.

    Like


  63. on November 16, 2010 at 5:58 pm too late for romance

    @foxyaj07 and others:

    Everyone’s comments about the one word replies are exactly correct. If he had just replied with ‘cool’, or the infinitely superior “that’s why it’s drinks, and not dinner”, she’d have changed her tune. I guarantee it.

    DO NOT MAKE IT EASY FOR THEM TO LET YOU DOWN.

    The drinks line is gold. In fact, that whole attitude is gold. Never take it seriously. It’s just drinks after all, but that line is nice, succinct and a little challenging.

    The Saturday thing would have killed me though. I’m always busy on Friday and Saturday nights, even when I’m not, unless there is guaranteed sex. It’s like using the fake time constraint in bars: all you need to do is say you need to leave by a certain time to meet a friend for a drink and the hamster’s off to the races. Let them do the work.

    I try to use John Wayne’s advice about acting, “Talk low, talk slow, and don’t talk too much.”

    Like


  64. on November 16, 2010 at 5:59 pm greatbooksformen GBFM

    ROSISIYS TOISSYY ROISSY!!

    ROISSY!!!!

    POST ALERT!!

    you need a post on thsi one: Julie Klausner Sounds Off on Kermit, Tucker Max, and Other Inferior Men

    “Comedy writer and former Upright Citizens Brigade member, Julie Klausner has news from the frontlines – of shitty relationships. Like most of us, she spent her twenties ricocheting from douchebag to douchebag, and she reveals every crappy moment in her dating memoir I Don’t Care About Your Band: What I Learned from Indie Rockers, Trust Funders, Pornographers, Faux Sensitive Hipsters, Felons and Others. As expected, there are tons of laugh-out-loud lines delivered from Klaunser’s sharp-wit pen. More surprisingly is how cringeworthy tales of blow jobs with goths and bedbug-infested one-night stands are followed with sage observations. For instance, she points out the stark difference between guys and men. (As she writes, if Mad Men was called Mad Guys, it’d star Joe Pesci and not Jon Hamm.)
    ” –http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/cultist/2010/11/julie_klausner.php

    Like


  65. I once responded to a post-hookup LJBF with

    “Just forget it, I’m not your little goddamn friend”

    Honesty is not the best policy. It sure as hell didnt win her back. The asshole thing is an art, I suppose…

    Like


  66. “LJBF …”
    “LJBFB.”

    Like


  67. “I’m really sorry, I’m not really up for going out, I was in a long relationship until recently. It was very nice in the cinema with you, you’re really pleasant and interesting to talk with, but I understood it only as friendship.”

    GG: “Me too! I wanna friend you so hard, baby, you’ll have forgotten that relationship when we’re done friending.”

    GG: “… You’ll go, wait, I was in a relationship?”

    GG: “… No way, with who? With my friend? Gotta be my good friend, right?”

    GG: “… What were we talking about again? Lets. Be. Friends. Oh yeah. Such. Good. Friends.”

    GG: “Gotta bounce, girl. Lotsa cocka!”

    Like


  68. A man’s default response should always be to excuse him from the LJBF situation.

    @Rolllo

    You sure???

    It’s a lot more fun to accept the proposal and then abuse her for the insincerity. Fuck other chicks in her dorm bed and leave cum stains; make her give you back rubs; and by all means have her do the drunk driving home.

    The reason women use LJBF so much is because of the awesome success rate. She will most likely be rewarded with free, easy attention (snipers) or the free, easy dismissal (retreaters) of those who follow your advice. Either way she wins!

    Make all LJBF offers “expensive” and bitches will stop making them.

    Like


  69. Julie Klausner says it loud and clear – her long discussion essentially ends with “ultimately, the real problem is the epidemic of inferior men – which is basically what my book is about”

    You want to be successful with women? Stop being an inferior man.

    Like


  70. E.A. – Lame – Why waste your time like that? It’s not like it’ll eradicate the world of LJBFing.

    Like


  71. bictopia

    Some of my female friends would also write the sentence “im sorry i hurt your feelings”

    not ALL you EuroGirls are the angels pua imbues – we all know hungarian girls crush betas like puny insect

    Like


  72. on November 16, 2010 at 6:42 pm Good Luck Chuck

    Evil Alpha-

    “It’s not the degrees of separation that caused your fail. I’ve banged plenty of friends of a mutual friend… because that mutual friend and thus all her friends know me as the guy that whips his cock on crowded streets, screws waitresses, loves tequila and is a general hell raiser. You however are probably known as your mutual friend’s little brother.”

    This whole “never be friends with a woman” thing is bullshit.

    It’s good advice for guys who are helpless wuss bags around women, but if you have enough self control to not allow yourself to get emotional over a decent looking chick, Social Circle game is like shooting fish in a barrel.

    As long as the group, and more importantly your primary female contact in the group sees you as a masculine, sexual male, the friendzone doesn’t exist. If you are “approved” by at least one of the women in the group and you maintain your masculine frame you are unlikely to get rejected due to lack of attraction. Usually if a chick in the group rejects your advances it will be out of “territory respect”.

    Point is, as long as the women in the group see you as a sexual being instead of an asexual orbiter, you can leverage your social proof inside and on the outskirts of that group to hook up with more women than would normally be available to you.

    If your mutual friend isn’t PR and gaming for you, then what good is she? The girls at the party ought to know you by reputation; otherwise you are doing something wrong. There is little sweeter to my ears than when a brand new girl, says Hi. “I know who you are.” It’s a very polite way of her saying… please bang me in the ass.”

    Right on.

    Last week I attended a little happy hour birthday celebration for an ex fuck buddy of mine. I walked in and birthday girl introduces me to her friend.

    Her friend’s eyes got wide and she said “Is this THE Good Luck Chuck?!?!? Shame on you!”

    Why did she react this way? Because last year, during the time when I was banging birthday girl, I also banged birthday girl’s best friend, and the new girl happened to know both of them.

    The entire night the spotlight was on me. The subject- how I was such an ass hole for having banged birthday girl’s friend. Of course every “insult” was followed by “you know I’m just teasing, right?”.

    The gina tingles were seismic.

    Like


  73. willie D was onto something

    Like


  74. Mike and Rollo, you’re putting up solid stuff.

    Like


  75. Suggested responses so far:

    1. “Wow, you sound like a soap opera. Drama queen!”

    Assessment: Trying too hard. Bitchy attitude just sounds bitter. She’ll probably giggle at you with your mutual friend behind your back. C-

    2. “Just forget it, I’m not your little goddamn friend”

    Assessment: Waaaay too bitter. She’ll giggle about this with *everyone* behind your back. D-.

    3. “Me too! I wanna friend you so hard, baby, you’ll have forgotten that relationship when we’re done friending.”

    Assessment: Clever! Too clever for me to be able to predict the results. Could score anywhere between “game-changing” and “creepy” depending on the situation. I’m gonna grade this a “Q+”

    4. “Friendship? Eff that, I’m trying to get in them jeans.”

    Assessment: Never gonna work. D.

    4. “Cool” (30 minutes later)

    Assessment: Almost correct. A. The correct answer is the marginally more dismissive “coo” which would have earned an A+.

    5. “lozlzlzlzlzlzllzlzzlzzzzlzlz”

    Assessment: Just crazy enough to work. B+

    Like


  76. on November 16, 2010 at 7:00 pm Good Luck Chuck

    I honestly can’t remember the last time I heard a chick say “lets just be friends”.

    I do, however, have two pretty good female friends.

    One is the ex f/b from my post that is probably still in moderation.

    The other is a chick that I messed around with a few times back in the day but never had a lot of interest in.

    Funny thing is, I screwed BOTH of their best friends, during the respective times when each of them had at least a passing interest in me.

    The fact that I have had sex with one or more OTHER women in each particular social group established me as the rooster in the henhouse.

    It is not uncommon for either one of these women to call me up on a Sunday morning and ask “are you alone” or “do you have to kick any dirty hookers out” before asking if I want to grab brunch and have a few drinks.

    When your female friends constantly refer to your unabashed caddishness you know you are doing it right.

    Like


  77. This thread has collected some really good and practical advice. Copy-pasting a half of the posts for re-reading in the future seems like a good idea.

    Like


  78. E.A. – Lame – Why waste your time like that? It’s not like it’ll eradicate the world of LJBFing.

    @bds

    Waste time? Lol. Being evil requires much less time and effort than being good.

    As for eradicating LJBF… not my intended goal, but simply was highlighting that between the options A (beta) & B (Rollo) option C (mine) is more effective at making a girl think twice the next time.

    Like


  79. Her friend’s eyes got wide and she said “Is this THE Good Luck Chuck?!?!? Shame on you!”

    Chuck. Good shit. Really good shit!

    Like


  80. @ titan

    “You want to be successful with women? Stop being an inferior man.”

    Being “inferior” didn’t prevent those men from getting Julie to spread for them in “bedbug-infested one night stands”, or whatever she called them.

    Like


  81. I was in a similar situation about a year and a half ago.
    She gave me her number …. I fucked up by texting her the day after (too soon) and then a day later received an epically long text about ” You’re a nice guy , I have come out of a relationship , I’m busy with work , blah blah blah”

    In retrospect , I should have just replied as P suggested … “That’s too bad, I just wanted to fuck you” and then waited.

    A few weeks later, I texted her again asking if she’d like to meet for a coffee …. got the “I’m busy with work” type reply … texted her back ” Ok , cool ” , deleted her number and charged the experience to the game.

    Like


  82. 81st !!

    Like


  83. Riff Dog made the point I thought of: her attempt to escalate a simple meetup offer into something that would hurt his feelings shows a real entitled drama queen. She wants to think every guy she turns down is crying in his beer somewhere. Like Mr. Z said, she completely controlled the frame, and there was really nothing he could say at that point that wouldn’t sound bitchy or pathetic, which is why one-word game (or zero-word) was the only answer.

    Unless, of course, he really was supplicating so hard that she knew he was gonna be crushed. He doesn’t sound that way in his email, but who knows.

    Another possibility is that an ex she’s been pining for called her in that 15-minute span. A girl will kick a B-list guy to the curb in a hurry when one of her A-list guys calls.

    Like


  84. Rollo’s description of the “friends first” process is painfully familiar. Boy loves girl; girl doesn’t know he exists; boy hangs around waiting for his chance or for girl to realize her man is a cad; some big dramatic situation happens that gives boy a chance to show his true value; girl realizes boy has been there all along and they live happily ever after. Hey, it works in the movies!

    That attitude kept me chaste for most of my 20s. Just stopping that, without adding any fancy game tactics at all, increased my success with women exponentially.

    Like


  85. on November 16, 2010 at 7:31 pm Good Luck Chuck

    Chicks who know you’ve banged their friend(s) are low hanging fruit, perfectly ripe for the picking.

    You do have to learn how to keep them in check or they will cockblock the hell out of you. I have found that regularly reminding them “no cockblocking me tonight” serves two purposes.

    1) It makes them conscious of their actions so they stop actively cockblocking,

    and

    2) Competition anxiety is amplified because she WANTS to cockblock and it’s written all over her face

    Like


  86. on November 16, 2010 at 7:34 pm Good Luck Chuck

    “Them” being women other than your target.

    Like


  87. Chicks who know you’ve banged their friend(s) are low hanging fruit, perfectly ripe for the picking.

    @GLC

    Amen! I hated women’s need to gossip, till I figured out how to harness it and get me laid.

    Like


  88. “I won’t pack your bags out tha store. Nor will I take you to a play or a musical, whore.”

    Yep, Willie D was onto something, too bad I didn’t take that song more to heart back when I used to laugh at it all the time.

    Like


  89. on November 16, 2010 at 8:23 pm Gunslingergregi

    ”””””Evil Alpha
    Chicks who know you’ve banged their friend(s) are low hanging fruit, perfectly ripe for the picking.

    @GLC

    Amen! I hated women’s need to gossip, till I figured out how to harness it and get me laid.
    ”””””””

    Word.

    Like


  90. Chateau–

    Once befriended, it is very difficult to change her opinion of you to one of potential lover. An ounce of sleaziness is worth a pound of conversion. *** If it’s a bang you want, it’s a friendship you don’t want. There are only a few circumstances under which it is feasible to be friends with a girl.

    Although you explain the exceptions to this very well in the earlier post you linked to here, this simple formulation is still gonna be read and acted on wrong by a lot of guys.

    The way it really works is that if she doesn’t early on in meeting you feel any attraction to you, such that she puts you in the not interest in that kind of way category (i.e. beta), THAT’s very hard to turn around. Cause girls feel guys have it for them or not = chemistry.

    The point is there’s no reason not to be friends with a girl you might want to bang, or definitely want to. But if so you’ve gotta flirt. You’ve gotta game them, at least some, showing at least a glimmer that you can bring it a lot if you want to. This happens a lot in work situations and also in just day to day interactions. It happens a lot in university interactions too. At least if you’ve got some or a lot of game.

    Hot girls who are friends are also great social proof, especially if she’s friends in a flirty kind of way.

    Like


  91. i tried to de-friend-zone myself the other week:

    Me: “Drugs?”
    Her: “Yes!”
    Me: “Booze?”
    Her: “YesS!”
    Me: “Bum sex?”
    Her: “NO!”

    Worth a shot though.

    Like


  92. “Despite what women say, recent breakups are no impediment to hooking up with a new man if he is an alpha.”

    Lol, so true.

    I swear, guys whine and whine about how women are “inconsistent” and “illogical” and whatever, but in reality they are very consistent and logical people.

    It’s just that their logic revolves solely around rationalizing their emotions. If she has a low interest level, she will make up any excuse not to be around you, trying to avoid confrontation along the way. But if her interest level is high, she will cheat on her boyfriend and get drunk to give herself “plausible deniability”, as Mystery is fond of saying.

    I forget which guru said this, but he exhorted men to “change a woman’s mood, not her mind”.

    Like


  93. It’s funny, this post is actually pretty relevant to my life right now. I’m not sure if i’ve been handling it right so far, but i’m giving it a shot.

    Had a month long fling with this girl, long story short i fucked up and saw her two nights in a row; she gave me a number to text her at later that week since she doesn’t have a phone.

    Go to text her, and the reply is “i uh dont think she wants to talk to you anymore dude”

    so i said “okay perfect” and left it at that.

    A week goes by and I get the following message on facebook-

    “i didnt want you to think that i was trying to avoid you. ive just been having some really shitty communication abilities lately and i really have no idea what that kid said to you that night that you texted i just got told that you did and that him and his friend took care of it for me. really tho im sorry and this is the first time ive been able to really get online. i really hope your not pissed at me. but i have a job interview and hopefully i can get the job and put my phone back on soon enough.”

    so i reply 3 days later, “everyone gets one. this is yours. im free later on sunday, or maybe midweek sometime. if this apology is sincere, you’ll get in touch with me by the end of the week.”

    cue 6 days of silence from her, and on the 7th (2 days ago actually) she IMd me on chat. The following conversation happened-

    her- hi
    i cant really talk but i did wanna say hello cuz its been awhile. sorry ive been busy, i havent really had the time to really hang out with anyone in a while

    me, 15 min later- its whatever dude

    her, 5 min later- okies, still i dont want any bad feelings dude

    me 30 min later- its cool man

    her, right away- :):)
    but i gotta go, its just hard to get a hold of you since i dont have my own cell anymore… i totally fucked up that phone btw… i smashed it and then broke it in half.. my rage got the best of me lol

    me, 10 min later- shit dude
    i figure if youre gonna get in touch you will, its whatever

    her, 2 min later- lol but ill talk to you later dude

    me- sure

    Now i realize i fucked up by ending the conversation instead of leaving it, but overall i think it went well enough. She knows im seeing other people and i know she is too, so really im just trying to maintain the whole “doesn’t give a shit” frame.

    Any thoughts as to what i might have done right or (more importantly) what i can do better would be appreciated.

    Like


  94. on November 16, 2010 at 8:50 pm cadinbetaclothing

    I find that putting yourself in the beta/friend zone is one of the best ways of disposing of highly emotional neurotic woman you’re tired of. You break off cleanly and she thinks of you fondly. A few years later she suspects she was had, but by then the tingles return, and often, so does she. But much tamed…

    Like


  95. on November 16, 2010 at 8:51 pm Gunslingergregi

    ””” An ounce of sleaziness is worth a pound of conversion.””””

    Yea

    ””””” If you have the patience of a saint, the fortitude to endure painful blue balls, and the willingness to undertake a high effort endeavor with a small chance of reward, then the friend zone to fuck zone plot ploy is for you. Most men, however, don’t feel they have ten lifetimes to devote to this long-view strategy. ””’

    Or if it really and truly doesn’t matter because you allready getting pussy every other interaction is just a game. Doesn’t mean shit not loaded and play.

    ””””- 15 minutes later I get this text from her: “I’m really sorry, I’m not really up for going out, I was in a long relationship until recently. It was very nice in the cinema with you, you’re really pleasant and interesting to talk with, but I understood it only as friendship.”””””

    Yea lets go hit this club you can help pick up chicks for me.

    Like


  96. The difference between a friend an an orbiter is enormous. If you wouldn’t actually want to be friends with the girl (not sure? Imagine she is plain-looking) then being put into the friend zone means you gave screwed up and should bail out and pursue other women. If you can actually be friends with her (meaning something completely reciprocal where she is not the center of the relationship which you merely orbit) then you should still bail out if you want to maximize your chances of attracting her, but you can also take advantage of the friendship to attract other girls as an alternative strategy. This worked for me in college (Firepower, she was from New Jersey.)

    Like


  97. on November 16, 2010 at 8:55 pm Gunslingergregi

    Or what I really said allright I’m going to the stripclub.

    lolllllzzzzzz

    Like


  98. on November 16, 2010 at 9:13 pm Gunslingergregi

    ””””” (a rather small group) found that 70 percent of Italian men have never used a stove, and 95 percent have never run a washing machine.””””

    Yea that is right. If you are a man you shouldn’t even know what a washing machine is unless it is to fix it if it is broken.

    Note on this site how the most memorable horror stories of men and woman relationships always include the guy saying how he was such a great cook.

    If you are single eating out is cheaper than cooking anyway.

    Like


  99. on November 16, 2010 at 9:20 pm strikeforcemorituri

    If you’re trying to stick it. Say so, she say no?, Next ho….

    I couldn’t have said it better myself. Personally I think the guy who got insta LJBFriended messed up from the start, He should have made it known that he wasn’t that type of guy right off from jump street. I’ve been introduced to plenty of my platonic girlfriends female friends and I always let them know that I’m pretty much about getting the ass. I always do it in a playful way that challenges them to control themselves.

    I usually say something snarky when names are being introduced such as “I was wondering when you were going to bring a new girl around for me to seduce…” Or I’ll say “She doesn’t usually introduce me to her female friends as I end up in bed with them, but don’t worry I’m trying to turn a new leaf.”

    From that point if I ask them for their number they pretty much know whats up.

    I’ve always found having a woman as a friend can get pretty exhausting as they try to monopolize a ton of your time. Fuck that noise.

    Like


  100. “you want 2b friends, I only want 2 fuck. bye.”

    Like


  101. J R, good point about the shallowness of female friendships. They’ll abandon their friends at the drop of an alpha’s hat.

    The girl who spurned the guy in this post did not deserve an answer to her dishonest text. If you have to reply out of a misguided sense of
    politeness, then keep it to one word

    Like


  102. Threaten suicide.

    Make it ambiguous as to whether you are sarcastic or serious.

    Do not reply to further texts.

    [Editor: This is pretty funny.]

    Like


  103. @Rollo Tomassi

    “Women have boyfriends and girlfriends. If you’re not fucking her, you’re her girlfriend.”

    +++

    Like


  104. She said yes, then 15 minutes laters changed her mind?
    Shit Test
    Wait a few hours and text back “See You Saturday”

    (Alright, maybe she called you mutual friend who said:
    You’re dating HIM?, or
    He’s MY Guy.)

    If she doesn’t show Saturday, tease mutual friend about her gf flaking.

    @kmr
    In my experience, every long term gf broke up and flaunted new boyfriend in my face! (often in the opposite order)

    Like


  105. on November 16, 2010 at 10:06 pm Gunslingergregi

    ””””’old guy
    Threaten suicide.

    Make it ambiguous as to whether you are sarcastic or serious.

    Do not reply to further texts.

    [Editor: This is pretty funny.]
    ”””””’

    Don’t be copying my suicide game he he he

    Like


  106. @Gunslingergregi

    ””””’old guy
    Threaten suicide.

    Make it ambiguous as to whether you are sarcastic or serious.

    Do not reply to further texts.

    [Editor: This is pretty funny.]
    ”””””’

    Don’t be copying my suicide game he he he”

    You use it too?

    Works like a charm on some does it not?

    If not it’s good for giggles.

    Like


  107. That dialogue sounded exactly like how this one gay guy in my aviation class started hitting on me. Weird as hell. But hey, it’s San Francisco, I can’t complain.

    Yes, the best way to respond to anything is with a non serious, immature, blow everything out of perception, sort of way. Honest, I’m not being sarcastic.

    Like


  108. In my experience, any girl that is worth dating (my meaning: capable of strongly bonding with her boyfriend) will go through a refractory period after a breakup where she’s still strongly bonded to the ex. During that time, the idea of anything more than gentle flirtation with another man is as abhorrent as when she was in the relationship.

    I think the most common type of breakup occurs because of mate poaching, for both genders…. (implying the refractory period happens while one is still dating the soon to be ex) and ending upon breakup.

    Like


  109. @Evil Alpha

    A man’s default response should always be to excuse him from the LJBF situation.

    @Rolllo

    “You sure???

    It’s a lot more fun to accept the proposal and then abuse her for the insincerity. Fuck other chicks in her dorm bed and leave cum stains; make her give you back rubs; and by all means have her do the drunk driving home.

    The reason women use LJBF so much is because of the awesome success rate. She will most likely be rewarded with free, easy attention (snipers) or the free, easy dismissal (retreaters) of those who follow your advice. Either way she wins!

    Make all LJBF offers “expensive” and bitches will stop making them.”

    ##############

    Like.

    Like


  110. on November 16, 2010 at 10:57 pm Good Luck Chuck

    I can’t tell you the number of opportunities that have been afforded to me after I began to realize that men can use women in the same way women use men. I know Rollo T personally and he knows what’s up when it comes to women, but I have always butted heads with him on his “If you aren’t fucking her you’re her girlfriend” philosophy.

    As I mentioned, it’s sound advice for the guy with orbiter tendencies to avoid women who would use him, but to imply that it is a universal rule implies that all men are slaves to their penises and aren’t smart enough to use subterfuge to gain hand on women who would normally be the ones dishing out the manipulation tactics.

    In other words, this is sage advice for the guy who cannot actively compartmentalize what is in front of him at any given time but it is poor advice for the “alpha” who cares little about any one woman.

    Evil Alpha-

    Chicks who know you’ve banged their friend(s) are low hanging fruit, perfectly ripe for the picking.

    @GLC

    Amen! I hated women’s need to gossip, till I figured out how to harness it and get me laid.

    Many PUA tools are based on the ability to utilize “feminine” tactics to get results.

    I realized a few years ago that a men who are successful in the mating game date like women. Multiple options at any given time, branch swinging, manipulation tactics, etc.

    As far as gossip goes, it’s another VERY powerful tool a man can use to his advantage. All it takes is to get a couple of the hens clucking about you and they will ALL start to see you in a sexual light (as long as you haven’t messed up with other chick(s) in the group).

    Of course the gossip thing can totally work against you as well. I almost screwed up BAD on Halloween. I guess I had enough “alpha cred” to pull me through it, but I made the mistake of having a little too much to drink and laid it a little too thick on a chick in the group who turned out to be engaged. She left the bar because apparently she has terrible social anxiety (her friend told me this might happen before we went out) but it appeared to some of the other members of the group that it was me trying to kiss her that made her leave.

    I know buying signals when I see them. This chick was giving me all of the classic IOI’s, but I wasn’t sober enough to calibrate my game to accommodate for the fact that she was with her friends and didn’t want to be seen letting some dude kiss on her in front of everyone.

    Luckily the cabal decided the next day that I wasn’t a “creeper”, that I had just had one too many to drink, so I got a free pass this time. That was too close for comfort though. If I didn’t have that get out of jail free card I could have wrecked my game with a really good social circle that took me YEARS to build. I was kind of sweating it even after the ladies told me that everything was cool, but when I saw that they posted pics of me and the chick in question on facebook I knew that I’m still in with that group.

    [Editor: Good comment. This is how I run my lifestyle with women. While I don’t go out of my way to actively manipulate every woman I know, the manipulation more often than not emerges naturally and unbidden. It’s a subconscious impulse that men who know women well have. We are always working to tilt the playing field in our favor.]

    Like


  111. If you can get the cops to arrest her for trying to kick your door down you are free and clear of being trapped in the friend-zone. For one thing, she will probably spend the night locked up with real Hos – who will talk lovingly about their pimps – and she cannot help but to forever think of you in
    the same way.

    Like


  112. Saying my line wouldnt work…

    Have you ever tried it and not pussied out? Never say you’re just kidding. That other shit sounds exactly what it is “dismissive” trying to save face cause you got rejected because u didn’t put out a sexual enough vibe. Learn something about women and then try critiquing

    Like


  113. Good Luck Chuck–

    Chicks who know you’ve banged their friend(s) are low hanging fruit, perfectly ripe for the picking.

    Word.

    (So long as the gossip has been good in the sex department. You can be an asshole in other ways though.)

    Like


  114. I’ve seen the one word text response on this blog a few times and I like it…

    “gay”

    not even a question mark after it. They’d be like wtf ?

    Like


  115. Dammit, Doug1, again you’ve brought important perspective!

    Like


  116. “gay” is better to use after you got rejected after actually making your intentions, not getting rejected before you get out of the drive way. IMO

    Like


  117. alphabeta–

    If you’d had a good push pull non needy on your part, hot sex month long fling with her, seeing her two days in a row by itself isn’t gonna be anything close to fatal. It could even be good. So since there’s likely at least some basis for the guys texting you that she didn’t want to see you, the fling probably did have neediness and your chasing her in it.

    “i didnt want you to think that i was trying to avoid you. ive just been having some really shitty communication abilities lately and i really have no idea what that kid said to you that night that you texted i just got told that you did and that him and his friend took care of it for me. really tho im sorry and this is the first time ive been able to really get online. i really hope your not pissed at me. but i have a job interview and hopefully i can get the job and put my phone back on soon enough.” [you’re pretty much still desirable in her eyes here].

    so i reply 3 days later, “everyone gets one. this is yours. im free later on sunday, or maybe midweek sometime. if this apology is sincere, you’ll get in touch with me by the end of the week.” [ This is way off. You think it’s alpha but it’s beta. You really hurt yourself here. It’s threatening. That’s what someone feeling scarcity, not abundance of girlfriend options, does. You actually would have been better off comforting her here. Then letting her contact you next, if she’s gonna.]

    cue 6 days of silence from her, and on the 7th (2 days ago actually) she IMd me on chat. The following conversation happened- [It goes further downhill from here – she’s trying to keep you in the game for her, but ice you, maybe do her genuine preoccupation with job and money problems, but also because you’re sucking energy from her.]

    Pickup and flirt with other girls, mostly for your own head but also for social proof. Let her get in touch with you if she’s going to. If she does, give her comfort about her job and money problems, but don’t chase at all. Be a rock. You want to give her the idea that you’re not putting any demands on her, but at the same time you’re not waiting around for her.

    Like


  118. […] from Rollo Tomassi on the Roissy comment section: The medium IS the […]

    Like


  119. here’s a story of a poor girl who put a beta male suitor into the ‘friend zone’ only to be raped and murdered by the alpha male she unfortunately preferred to spend time with one night:

    http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/classics/mbb201_amy_st_laurent/1_index.html

    As the 1:00 a.m. closing time drew near, Rubright queued up to use the men’s room. When he finally got out, St. Laurent and the men had vanished. This was odd because he was her ride home to South Berwick, a Maine-New Hampshire border town 40 miles south of Portland. Her coat, cell phone, purse and backpack remained in his rental car. “I came outside and waited right by the door until, like, everybody was out of the bar,” Rubright later said. “And I didn’t see her, so I figured, you know, she left, or whatever, without me.”

    Annoyed, he decided to drive back to her place alone, assuming she had gone home by some other means.

    Like


  120. on November 17, 2010 at 12:30 am johnycomelately

    Response, “Whats a blowjob between friends, cumoooon….”

    Like


  121. […] When you meet a new girl, if you focus on creating playful conflict, you will definitely escape the friend zone. […]

    Like


  122. on November 17, 2010 at 1:16 am Good Luck Chuck

    Doug1

    Good Luck Chuck–

    Chicks who know you’ve banged their friend(s) are low hanging fruit, perfectly ripe for the picking.

    Word.

    (So long as the gossip has been good in the sex department. You can be an asshole in other ways though.)

    Lets just say that it pays to pay attention in bed…..

    All sorts of intricacies involved in banging multiple women in a given social group. I could go on and on as I have had a lot of experience in this realm and the dynamic fascinates me, but I need to get the hell off the internet now.

    Like


  123. From too late for romance’s post – “Never take it seriously.”

    Isn’t this the fundamental law of all interactions with women?

    Unfortunately I’m still generally fucking up thanks to life long beta habits that are a bitch to break. But when I have been successful it has always been because at that moment in time, for whatever reason, I didn’t give a fuck about the woman I was interacting with. I wasn’t bitter or angry or withdrawn. I just didn’t care. I was interacting merely to amuse myself, and truly didn’t care if she responded or walked away.

    It’s rare, but when I’m in that zone I’m fucking gold. It’s the moment I start to care or take the girl seriously that I fuck shit up.

    Evil Alpha’s response “Yup. That’s why it’s drinks and not dinner.” is something I would say while in that zone. (That or “too bad, all I really wanted was to fuck.”)

    My #1 problem is finding a way to hold that frame 24/7. If I could learn that I wouldn’t need Roissy’s blog or Mystery’s books or anything except a study supply of condemns.

    Like


  124. ‘Enjoy’?

    Enjoy what? I don’t get it.

    Like


  125. I won’t start a flame war discussing one of the more obvious ways to escape the friend zone right quick.

    Unrelated, but worth a Chateau post is that Prince William will owe Kate Middleton half his British kingdom seconds after her marries her:

    http://www.tmz.com/2010/11/16/prince-william-kate-middleton-prenup-england-queen-elizabeth-harry-princess-diana-wedding-engagement-ring-charles/

    I wonder if the PUA/MRA community can make enough of a dent in the media coverage of this issue.

    Like


  126. With a majority of women I have fucked, we have started out as friends first.

    Then again, I have always placed them in the friend zone.

    Regardless, there is nothing wrong with being friends.

    The issue Rois, is that the guy simply either came off as 1) desperate 2) desperate

    It is not that difficult; considering women all know that we want to fuck them, as soon as we make the slightest of a move on them, they know we are trying to fuck them, and hence, many of them will place a guy in the desperate for pussy zone. The only time a woman will go along with the guys advancements is if she is already very very physically attracted to him

    Attraction 101: Attraction is not a choice

    Whether you are just friends or not, a womans attraction triggers remain the same

    what can fuck up attraction, is when the woman senses that the guy is getting no pussy

    therfore, cover your tracks and tell her you just want to be friends for now

    I have done it many times, and I still end up fucking the chicks by the 2nd or 3rd date

    Like


  127. I would disqualify myself, and be patronizing, especially with some “you’re cute” game. Here’s an example of my handling of a similar situation.

    A girl I had met was coming into town, and she emailed me before saying she’d love to hang out. Then, when in town, she called me and asked me to join her for a drink. I said I had some work to finish (I didn’t) and will see if I could join later (I was going to). She then said: “By the way, I know this is awkward but I wanted to get it out of the way now so no problems happen. I really think you’re a great guy and I want to hang out, but I don’t want you to think I’m hitting on you. I just want us to hang out and be friends.”

    I turned all patronizing and said: “Oh, that’s really cute of you to think I was interested in you, but to be honest I have a girlfriend and was only thinking that I’d like to just hang out with you too. It’s cute you’d think that, though. Anyways, let me see if I get done with my work and I’ll call you later.”

    Two hours later, I texted her, she told me she’s waiting for me in my local bar. I went and she couldn’t get her hands off me, and we were back banging in my apartment in less than an hour.

    Like


  128. “15 minutes later I get this text from her: “I’m really sorry, I’m not really up for going out, I was in a long relationship until recently. It was very nice in the cinema with you, you’re really pleasant and interesting to talk with, but I understood it only as friendship.”

    My suggested response: Don’t forget to bring the skittles.

    Like


  129. on November 17, 2010 at 7:49 am Prince William

    Roissy, could you do a post on Kate Middleton, whom I, Prince William, heir to the throne of Ye little Olde England, is to marry next year? I am worried because I don’t think I haz game.

    I’m worried I’ve chosen the first slut who got her claws in me at university. The media haven’t reported me with any other women not because of concerns for my privacy but – honestly – because I haven’t had any other women!

    I know Kate has lovely feminine long hair but I wonder if she could be keeping that as a marker of her high social status and will cut it short once we’re hitched.

    Here’s her ring hand.

    In this picture she has an oversized man jaw.

    Also, I’m not sure if she’s that pretty: 6-7? If I had game I could dump her for something better.

    Advice badly needed.

    Wilz

    Like


  130. I understand and respect Good Luck Chuck’s PoV. I know him IRL and we’ve bounced differing theories off each other for years, but my disagreement with him about intergender friendship isn’t really the crux of an LJBF rejection. I have no doubt that many skillful Men have used a female “friend” as a successful pivot into another sexual opportunity, and there’s is a definite DHV element to having an attractive female “friend”, but that’s not what we’re talking about here.

    What’s at issue is the utility a LJBF rejection has for a woman, and how to avoid the potentially long term pitfalls it presents for a guy; particularly less experienced beta / herbs and guys who still fail to see that a woman’s behaviors are the only reliable proof of her motivation – never her words. An LJBF rejection should never be taken as a serious offer of friendship. Know it for what it is, a social fail-safe with the latent purpose of absolving a woman of the guilt associated with rejecting a guy.

    Should you chose to accept that rejection based on your potential to use her as a “friend” pivot into one of her hot girlfriends, well, that’s your prerogative, but don’t think for a moment the basis of your “friendship” is genuine in any way. I should also add that it’s only the very experienced player who can covertly convince a prior LJBF girl that he’s legitimately pursuing a friendship with her while running Game on her girlfriends. You made the attempt, she gave you the LJBF bailout, it’s pre-established that you want to bang her so any “friendship” dialog you play along with is already going to be colored by this in the background.

    Like


  131. Any thoughts as to what i might have done right or (more importantly) what i can do better would be appreciated.

    i got a few thoughts, dude. for fuck’s sake, why are you pursuing this chick? she has no job. she has no computer or internet access. she’s prone to fits of rage where she breaks things that she can’t afford to replace. she doesn’t even have a cell phone? i’ve seen homeless people with cell phones.

    this is a woman that you’ve decided to pursue? you interest in her is broadcasting to her your lack of value. any man with self-respect would run the other way from a girl like that. if she’s cute then some dudes might call her up for the occasional booty call, but what kind of guy would actually be treating her like a prize? chances are, this broad has been treated like shit her whole life and that’s all she’s capable of responding to.

    the hooker with a heart of gold is a fictional trope. if you find them in the gutter, leave them in the gutter. my advice is simple: don’t be Captain Sav-a-ho.

    Like


  132. Rollo Tomasi’s post above re “The Medium is the Message” is a must read. An absolutely brilliant post.

    Like


  133. I have a group of nannies that I have been friends with for years and we go out and use each other as pivots. Sometimes I will get drunk and shag one of them by accident but she understands when that happens that we are still just friends.

    Like


  134. BTW, a couple years back I asked a girl whom I’ve been friends with for 18 years to be my pivot, and suggested that if we went out, we could help each other in pick ups. I hadn’t seen her in a few years. We met up, went out, and she ended up jumping on my knob that night and many times over again in the subsequent several months. Frame is so very important, and I think my blatant, direct request to use her as a pivot and suggestion that she do the same with me made something click in her.

    Like


  135. “Any thoughts as to what i might have done right or (more importantly) what i can do better would be appreciated.”

    1) you didn’t give her any shit about some other guy answering her text. that should have been the point in time where you made here work extra hard to qualify yourself to her.

    2) You left long gaps between your communication, but it seemed contrived and an expression of bitterness to wait 3 days after she said her phone was off.

    3) Saying “it’s whatever dude” in any context with a woman sounds bitter beta to me.

    4) Calling any woman “dude” and “man” repeatedly strikes me as extremely immature and creepy, and something that would surely land you in the friend zone. If you are calling the girl the same names you call your buddies, something is terribly wrong.

    Just a critique – I have done things that were far worse in my life so I’m not insulting you.

    Like


  136. As others have said, if a woman is attracted to you, she’ll make the meet happen. I’ve had women drive 4 hours to meet me, finding out later that they had to borrow gas money and arrange babysitters to do it. When she’s interested, she’ll make it happen. On the other hand, I’ve had them make up the most ridiculous excuses to put me off, time after time, never just admitting that they weren’t interested.

    If she’s giving you stories about a broken cell phone, she doesn’t want you. At most, she might want to keep you on the shelf as a backup while she works through things with a guy who really does make her tingle, but why settle for that?

    On the friends thing: it’s not that you can’t be friends with girls. FBs can be friends, after all. But the friendship needs to follow the attraction. What most guys do, like Rollo described, is try to be a girlfriend first, presenting themselves as safe and reliable and sensitive, hoping it will “grow” into something more. But that means they have to avoid all the attitudes and actions that women actually find attractive, so by the time the guy tries to make his move, she’s firmly stuck him in the LJBF category.

    When that was my strategy, I still got lucky a couple times, but only because I was a pretty good looking guy, and the girl in question had daddy issues and I reminded her of him, or she was getting revenge on her ex, or she was a golddigger, etc. Dumb luck, in other words. They slept with me despite my “friends” attitude, not because of it. Unfortunately, a guy doesn’t have to get lucky that often to be convinced he just needs to keep doing the same thing, so it took a long time to realize I was doing everything wrong.

    If you approach friendship with them the way you approach it with guy friends — this is who I am; we can hang together and have fun but I’m not your confessor or your doormat — that can work quite well. But it has to be real — if you’re pretending to only want friendship while secretly pining for her heart, women can smell that like a dog smells bacon.

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  137. woops I meant she should have had to qualify herself to YOU after that intercepted text.

    Like


  138. ‘Called her 2 days later and had a chat where she was again the same towards me. Tried to schedule a drink at Thursday, she was busy but offered Saturday instead’

    This is where he burried himself. It was a shit test and he failed. That’s why she messaged 15 minutes later and shot him down.

    He should have behaved as though Thursday was his only free night. Let her think you’ve got a date with a hotter chick on the Saturday. She put up a hoop and he jumped right through it.

    Proper response: ‘no panic, let’s talk next week’

    Like


  139. I used to do the most beta shit in the world too, in fact, some downright cringe-worthy stuff that to this day will throw me off my game just thinking about it, some much dopier stuff than even in these examples. I’m confident enough that it is sewage under the bridge now because all of the women whom I’ve been involved with over the past several years still hate my guts after dumping them.

    In fact, I had one bitter ex that I dumped in ’08 yelling and screaming at me, drunk in the street just last week. Fun stuff.

    What these broads don’t understand is that, if you start being a detriment to my life and bringing negative shit into my realm, I am going to expel you. The problem is, these modern day bitch-princesses with their entitlement complexes simply can’t comprehend that fact.

    Like


  140. That shit from mystery is right – build attraction early, then speak to them like she’s one of the guys, then aloofness, then sex.

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  141. Only 3 response options really:

    1. No response to her LJBF note. Nothing. Nada dont even acknowledge she lives.
    2. Very short response. See the good ones above.
    3. Escalate. This one is very tricky but if done correctly can be superiour (fast results) to the others. The first 2 are recommended for most guys and can work albeit slowly. You need to be very up on your game for this one. I would estimate 1-5% of guys can properly escalate given this situation.
    4. Reverse play using mutual friend if and only if she is willing and able to raise your value subtely. This is rare but an attractive female willing to properly wing for you is like kyptonite to shit testing females.

    Like


  142. Rollo,

    I don’t think this post was ONLY about advice for the gameless emailer though many of us weighed in on specific actions for his circumstances.

    So while I appreciate your attempt to help betas cope better, the reality is that “friend zone/LJBF” is a more complex phenomenon than you describe. This is an advanced site and so classroom concepts from pussy 301 should be as welcome as pussy 101 concepts. Thus “old guy” chimes in with funny shit like “threaten suicide” where the best response for most rookies is probably to do nothing.

    Now the problem that I have with your comments concerning friend zone/LJBF is they feel less as if you are dumbing down theory for the benefit of the less skilled, and more like you actually believe that LJBJ/friend zone is black and white simple. Well, it just isn’t.

    Earlier Last week I got an LJBF request that ALL men should welcome. On occasion, LJBF is the best way for a woman to relay “I’m seeing someone and want you to think I’m loyal, but I would sooo like you to get me drunk and fuck me so I could blame the indiscretion on alchohol” or “You are serious upgrade from my current boyfriend, so please don’t leave the state cuz when we run our course, I’d love to do ass 2 mouth for someone like you”

    On occasion LJBF is a girl giving you a pussy rain check.
    LJBF is not ALWAYS something to dread.

    I am surprised that a guy who understands that medium is the message does not display a broader view of LJBJ. A woman who wants to fuck you will find a way… even if that way looks like a conventional form of female rejection.

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  143. on November 17, 2010 at 12:42 pm Good Luck Chuck

    Although seduction has been distilled into a process that most anyone can learn, it still relies heavily on using the numbers game to your favor. Even a dorky guy can get a lay from time to time if he approaches like a machine. The whole idea behind game is to go from 1 lay out of 50 approaches to 1 lay out of 10.

    That said, women’s attraction is still a very complicated process. The nuances go well beyond the meet/attract/comfort/seduce. Guys who possess a deeper understanding of how the female mind works have additional psychological weapons that can be deployed to great effect.

    I’m not the kind of guy who has the time for or enjoys dealing with the bullshit that comes with approaching random women all of the time just to keep my dick wet. It is STILL a pain in the ass dealing with women who come primarily from social circle game, but when you come preselected the BS decreases exponentially. My time is much better spent cultivating attraction within several social circles than trying to wade through a dozen random flakes just to get one lousy lay. It’s great because I don’t have to do much more than I would normally do anyway- I pull women while I am hanging out with friends doing my everyday thing.

    That’s why I have an issue with Rollo’s simplified theory. I am not currently fucking any of my female friends, but I am certainly *NOT* their homosexual empathetic “girlfriend”.

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  144. “That’s why I have an issue with Rollo’s simplified theory. I am not currently fucking any of my female friends, but I am certainly *NOT* their homosexual empathetic “girlfriend”.”

    The big caveat with Rollo’s simplified statement is the assumption that the fellow is attracted sexually to those girls who are friends.

    If there is indeed no mutual attraction, then female friends can prove quite handy as pivots, introductions to other females, increasing social value, etc.

    As a somewhat older fellow (48), I have cultivated female friendships and it has proven a good experience. Thankfully, the pressure to look good here in South Florida means that my female friends feel the pressure to look attractive and having them around increases my social value.

    Like


  145. polymathblogger

    (Firepower, she was from New Jersey.)

    well, with all teh easteuro soviet-communist-immigrant enclaves squatting there, its sort of the same thing

    i date[d] a girl from jersey with an accent like mel gibson’s ex

    Like


  146. on November 17, 2010 at 2:14 pm French Connection

    Not entirely in line with the LJBF story mentioned above, but I heard the following a while ago, (can’t remember where, might even have been on here).

    Girl goes into a bar, gets talking to the bartender. Eventually she mentions she just got out of a relationship and is really not ready to start dating again. The bartender replies ‘So you’re just looking for a fuck?’.

    Depending on your reputation this could be tricky given the social situation, but I totally see this working.

    Like


  147. You can call it oversimplification, but I’d call it pragmatism. Yes, I’m sure there are rare instances where an LJBF rejection may in fact be a veiled shit test, or a woman who drops info that she has a boyfriend into casual conversation (i.e. the boyfriend disclaimer) may in fact want to see if you’ve got the sack to push past it and still bang her in spite of it, but these are exceptions to a rule. I think what I’ve proffered here may seem like LJBF basics, but if that’s the case it’s only because the prompting, the motivations for, and the outcome of, an LJBF are so overwhelmingly common. It rings true for so many guys because it so common a default response for women it’s a cliché now.

    So you can see my hesitation to advise “hey stick it out, I once had one girl in 50 ride me to glory after she LJBF’d me”. The more common scenario is going to be what I’ve described above, so the pragmatic response is to learn from the mistakes a guy made in his approach and adjust his game with the next girl. The problem guys have with this advice is that it seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water, particularly after he’s put so much time and effort into his patient, painstaking approach. The more experienced Man, will refer back to a past experience when he did get laid after a previous LJBF and inject some second guessing of his own, or at least not entirely wanting to blow her off in order to use her as future pivot.

    To which I’ll ask, by comparison, is it worth the overall time and effort to push past a LJBF to get that sex and/or to accept and use the LJBF girl as a pivot in contrast to NEXTing her, and applying what a guy’s learned to his next prospective woman?

    I am not currently fucking any of my female friends, but I am certainly *NOT* their homosexual empathetic “girlfriend”.

    @GLC: We both know I would never dream this to be the case. The point of that quote isn’t about how you as a Man perceive your relating to a woman, but rather how she associates you. Her ‘platonic’ friendship mode is based on her same-sex friendships. That doesn’t imply you’re willing to accept some effeminate role with her, but it is her way of dealing with “friends” she has no sexual potential with as opposed to Men she does feel sexual potential with.

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  148. Solid Post.

    I met my current girlfriend through a mutual friend. In fact, I think that’s the best way to do it, if you think the girl has genuine wifey potential.

    One of my friends was meeting another friend of hers for lunch and I tagged along. Her friend also invited a friend to tag along. I was a bit flirtatious with the “friend who tagged along,” and then after the dinner, I called up my friend’s friend and said:

    “What’s up with your girl? Does she have a man? Tell her I wanna go out with her.”

    She texted me her number later that day. In this situation, I made it as obvious as possible that I was trying to GET DIRECTLY AT HER. I think you’re cool as long as you’re upfront about what you want. I would also advise to be more aggressive than you normally would be on the first date just to make sure the point is clear.

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  149. Excellent comment thread.

    @Evil Alpha
    On occasion, LJBF is the best way for a woman to relay “I’m seeing someone and want you to think I’m loyal, but I would sooo like you to get me drunk and fuck me so I could blame the indiscretion on alchohol” or “You are serious upgrade from my current boyfriend, so please don’t leave the state cuz when we run our course, I’d love to do ass 2 mouth for someone like you”

    On occasion LJBF is a girl giving you a pussy rain check.
    LJBF is not ALWAYS something to dread.

    Similarly, using it as an anti-slut defense (ASD) right at the start leaves her the option of still acting on her desire later, giving her some plausible deniability, especially if there is alcohol involved.

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  150. Thanks for the tips guys, I’m completely awful at internet game; basically nothing comes across the way I intended. Telling her she gets one was my way of saying “don’t worry about it; don’t stand me up like that again either.” But you’re all right, didn’t come across like that.

    Only thing I’m gonna disagree with (not trying to be an ass) is the calling her man or dude- Its always been my defacto neg, and literally every girl who ends up interested either gives me shit the first time, or just assimilates it into their vocabulary when talking to me. I can practically feel the gina gushes whenever I’ve used this proper; maybe it isn’t working via text but she mirrored like they always do, which leads me to believe it had the desired effect.

    And again no offense taken, appreciate the time put into your replies

    Like


  151. @Rollo:

    “”The problem with this process is that it bypasses essential stages of attraction and the necessary discomfort and sexual tension necessary for intimacy and proceeds directly to a warm familiar, comfortable, rapport the exact opposite of arousal. If you think about this in terms of sex, this is the stage right after climax when she wants to cuddle, spoon and be wrapped up in her nice, secure oxytocin induced comfort. This the opposite of the testosterone fueled, sweaty, anxious and uncomfortable stage of arousal and intercourse before that release. So in terms of “friendship” and the Sniper mentality, you’ve skipped arousal and gone straight to comfort.””

    This is the “aha” moment where all of the game techinques come together.

    It’s either you’re gaming for sexual purpose or you’re not.

    There’s a girl in my social circle I gamed. She lists “engaged” on her Facebook page.

    I asked her for drinks after she gave me IOI’s.

    She was “busy”.

    Last night, she leaves the club with some other new guy.

    The medium IS the message.

    If chicks want something they want it.

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  152. I’ve been de-zoned lately myself. Ouch. You could say the girl got buyers remorse, you could say she didn’t see me as high enough value, you could say I freaked her out by fucking her on the first date without a condom. Whatever the frame, I fell hard for a thrilling girl, and was tossed. I tried to turn things around, but everything I said just came off with a hint of begging or arguing. How do you convince a girl she’s being hasty about not seeing you again in any other way? No matter what you say, it will be an argument against her position – which only reinforces her position.

    I’ve had two new girls since then, one who is becoming infatuated and who I’m fond of, but the one that got away keeps flashing into my mind. What a babe – and not just physically. All around babe. God damn! I rail!

    Now I know what it must be like for an alpha chasing chick, aiming out of her league. But, but, sputter, just give me a chance! You’ll see!

    And I keep rewinding and rerunning my game. What if it were tighter? What if I just fucked her for 10 minutes with a condom and got soft because I can’t feel a damn thing, and left it at that, for a few weeks until she’d go condomless? Probably I’d only be inviting a heartbreak later. But I would have taken it. Because she’s such a babe!

    My philosophy informs me to not dwell on regret, to be satisfied with the many loves I have in my life, and to keep searching for a girl who is less severe and unforgiving, and who puts me at higher value from the outset. Living that philosophy doesn’t come easily, with the quality that slipped through my fingers – like holding a winning lottery ticket and seeing it fall through the storm grate – you just want to retrieve it.

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  153. Hey Roissy, what do you mean by “incidental and forced contact?” people hook-up with friends-of-friends all the time, social circle game and all that shit. So under what conditions is it bad and how do you get past it? Help a recovering beta out…

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  154. Mike

    Like most guys, this guy fucks up by using too many words.

    Text messages should include 90%:
    * Cool.
    * OK.
    * All good.
    * Sweet.
    * Bring the movies.

    That’s it. Anything more just leads to fuck ups.

    Nonsense. Bring the movies is for a girl who has attraction for you. You can’t use it on a girl who has friend or no-zoned you.

    In fact, there is very little if nothing you can do once no-zoned. It’s all sputtering, no matter what you say.

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  155. well, whatever, ok.

    does needing to be loved, make you beta?

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  156. obv, the joke is on me, but, the question is real.

    is that not what it comes down to?

    the Great Comedian, George Carlin, said, Drop some of your needs.

    he was right, but, just saying.

    we have to be hard hearts, super tough psychos?

    what a deal.

    believe me, i get the joke.

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  157. @Wexler
    “well, whatever, ok.

    does needing to be loved, make you beta?”

    God NO!! Call it whatever you want…..beta, alpha…..we alll want to be loved. we’re all human.

    Like


  158. i am only half-way through the comments … there are always so many.

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  159. there is a frequent poster on the Spearhead. he talks a lot about being touched, and how, living without that, twists your soul.

    you begin to enjoy women suffering, their own defeat. how twisted is that.

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  160. don’t let me close off this conversation.

    got some food on the grill, have to attend to, will get back later.

    Like


  161. You guys should go check out some David X material on friends zone. It’s golden advice.

    “What if she just wants to be friends? What if she’s not ‘over’ her ex? You
    either fuck her or you don’t. It’s black or white. There can’t be any brown,
    gray, or blue. You’re not immortal. If she’s not ‘ready’, it usually means,
    “Stick around for now until I find something better.” If her favorite rock star
    asked her out, do you think she would say, “I’m washing my hair tonight”?
    She would probably make time for him! If she’s not making time for you,
    that’s ok. Somebody else will. There are 6 billion people on the planet, and
    half of them are lonely women. And a funny thing happens when you just say
    ‘ok’ and walk away effortlessly. Suddenly she may change her mind. If she
    does, great. Let her chase after you for a while. You have to realize that their
    cunts aren’t more valuable than our cocks. We’re both after the same thing —
    each other.
    The easiest thing you can do is walk away from a woman. You won’t get to
    fuck her, but at least you won’t have to put up with her indecisiveness. You
    won’t have to bring her a flower, or any of that shit. Just walk away, enjoy your
    freedom while it lasts. “What is it? Your sex is worth so much? Go give it to
    somebody else, I don’t want it.” Usually what happens when you finally do get
    to taste the one’s that give you such a hard time is you discover they’re no good
    anyway.
    They give us such a hard time in the beginning. But what they’re doing is
    they’re testing you to see if you’ve got what it takes to take good care of her.
    They don’t want a pussy. If you’re reading this, I think that you need an
    awakening; you need a good kick in the ass.”

    Also, when was the last time a woman ever helped you out as “a friend”……. NEVER. They are competitive, get it into your heads! They’ll never hook you up with their friends, they’re always competing with each other subconsciously. She won’t risk her female friendships if you don’t work out with the other girl.

    Seriously, it’s pointless to be “friends” with women unless you’re in certain situations as pointed out above in the thread.

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  162. right, the essence of inspiring women is danger.

    there is no faking it.

    but that real danger is not the seduction; it is the battle, or, perhaps, the hunt.

    those are the real thing.

    no soldier or hunter here, nor seductress …

    but it does one mad, to see others, without the real thing, fooling the women.

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  163. these days, for the greater beta (in the old school, the King’s Man), … it seems that gaming women is for fools, and fakes.

    and yeah, resentment colors my comments. and i know your post, on the withered heart.

    but these patterns, in social-sexual dynamics or whatever, lead one to be more among men.

    Like


  164. [i catch that error at my post of 12:54 am.

    “seductress”?! laughs.

    and i make posts about manliness. funny stuff.]

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  165. i should have waited until tomorrow, to comment more. oh well.

    this crazy holy fool i met, not long ago, i was near tears, over my own sad story, looked at me and laughed; said, Master your passion.

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  166. Her: “I’m really sorry, I’m not really up for going out, I was in a long relationship until recently. It was very nice in the cinema with you, you’re really pleasant and interesting to talk with, but I understood it only as friendship.”
    Me: “Are you crazy?”

    Her: “I’m sorry if I hurt you”
    Me: “Shut up. I’ll talk to ya later”

    What can I say, I don’t feel like playing a girl’s games.

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  167. Anon – Word

    Like


  168. Rollo.

    You ain’t getting it. 60% of NFL games are won by field advantage, but placing such a bet … without knowing the home team and the visitor is foolish.

    Pragmatism is: Assess > Strategize > Execute
    Reflex is: Stereotype > React

    “Run when you think you hear LJBF” is not pragmatism, it is reflex based on oversimplification (stereotype). Because you presume that some large percentage of LJBF will eventually lead nowhere, you completely skip the assessment step required to make the next best move for the given circumstances. So in your haste to blindly retreat, you miss all opportunities to

    A) bang girls that want to cheat
    B) bang girls that see you as a near term upgrade
    C) bang girls that need revenge/attention
    D) bang girls that you will meet through LJBF girl
    and E) bang girls who LJBF’ed, but will change their mind.

    Even if all the aforementioned add up to 10% (and trust me it’s higher as category A is huge and a gimme) it’s worth it. A 5% increase in pussy is always welcome as is a 5% increase in pay.

    Deciding anything based on theoretical odds, rather than using actual situational data leaves lots of easy pussy/money on the table.

    The original emailer wrote this: “I was just on the receiving end of the fastest friend zone in the world. It usually occurs after orbiting a girl for a while and then having her reject a move. This happened before any actual move. ”

    He has sensed his situation, categorized it as odd and should be analyzing, not knee jerking. Unfortunately his read and response sucked. Nevertheless, all good game requires that you look before you leap.

    Time for you to rethink your position my friend.

    Like


  169. redders

    “By the way, I know this is awkward but I wanted to get it out of the way now so no problems happen. I really think you’re a great guy and I want to hang out, but I don’t want you to think I’m hitting on you. I just want us to hang out and be friends.”

    A girl prefaced a first date with similar last week. I told her “What? No, I’m not trying to meet you to be friends. I’m meeting you to see if we can be more than friends.”

    Yes, I got the bang.

    Yes, sometimes the just meet as friends ploy is an anti slut defence. Just as you can play along and when a girl says “I’ll visit your apartment, but no sex” with “no, of course we aren’t going to fuck.”, sometimes you could play along and not push things about meeting as friends. But personally, I wouldn’t. The very word pisses me off, and I have no time for anything other than dating in the name of fucking.

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  170. Dave

    The issue Rois, is that the guy simply either came off as 1) desperate 2) desperate

    It is not that difficult; considering women all know that we want to fuck them, as soon as we make the slightest of a move on them, they know we are trying to fuck them, and hence, many of them will place a guy in the desperate for pussy zone. The only time a woman will go along with the guys advancements is if she is already very very physically attracted to him

    Yes, you really are coming at the issue from an attraction 101 stage.

    There is more to seduction than not being desparate. Sometimes the girl just isn’t into you, no matter how much poon you are getting and how tight your game. Not every girl can be converted, and not every conversion can lead where you want it to. Girls have minds of their own that we can’t completely manipulate.

    I’m rather sick of newbs thinking that aloof=game.

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  171. schfifty five

    I once responded to a post-hookup LJBF with

    “Just forget it, I’m not your little goddamn friend”

    Honesty is not the best policy. It sure as hell didnt win her back. The asshole thing is an art, I suppose…

    Schfifty, maybe it did work. Maybe you got a testosterone boost for acting like a man. Maybe it will show up in your swagger. Maybe your ability to be harsh and cutting will show up on your facial expressions like a gangsters knife fight scar.

    Being a prick when a girl needs a lesson taught is the way to go, in my opinion. Raises your manhood level.

    Like


  172. Z

    dates are for seduction, they occur after you have her attracted and comfortable with you. The emailer clearly didn’t have attraction yet and was already jumping to the date.

    I’m not sure about that. I suppose that even with internet dating, attraction is built up before scheduling the date, but if done efficiently you’ll have arranged the date with the minimal previous interaction. Everything can be done on the date. Attraction, comfort, seduction.

    For me, chatting gets in the way of any sort of game. Without body language I’m fairly useless – too prone to crankiness, as most women really are irritating.

    Like


  173. And you can mash up my comment to z and schfifty – you can even be a prick on the first overnight date, and get cranky at the girl for something. She’ll want to suck up to you and make amends, and this will help cement you as her authority. Of course the anger should only last about 1% of the time of the date, and not come until after you’ve fucked her.

    I’m convinced that having a short temper and very high expectations for a girls performance works in a man’s benefit, as long as the rest of the time his pull is hard and his comfort and joy building are strong.

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  174. on November 18, 2010 at 12:02 pm Beta States of America

    I have to agree that, if one’s talking about a 10, walking away is only a good idea when there’s distance involved or there are others of equal physical beauty around. If she’s a 10, be irreverent, assume she’s for sale, escalate, whatever, but continue seeing her.

    Here’s yet another reason not to live in the Beta States of America:

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/kiddie_pawn_shock_KnKyQ0JfMITAIqGawRJf8J

    Apparently, males are not allowed in Central Park anymore if they’re not accompanied by a child.

    The rationale, given by beta policemen, is “if a child were ever harmed, people would be demanding to know why individual adult males were ALLOWED to have been walking around in the park at that time.”

    That matches the feminist mantra for passing new laws: “if it saves just one woman from harm, it will have been worth any loss of supposed rights for men.” <- Not a joke, this is what federal judges have said upholding laws like VAWA.

    Like


  175. Ah-nold has it right…

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  176. I think the best response to her turndown is to txt this: “bitch”. See how she reacts. I know this is extreme but Roissy’s suggestions weren’t much better.

    And I think the best way to get out LJBF is to follow Roissy’s advice from back in the day: ignore your tendency to conform to her expectations of you. Slap her on the ass. Flirt with other girls in front of her. Ignore her. Make her feel good. Then bad. And over again.

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  177. […] in this post described a social situation that most guys, including myself, assume provide a good chance for a […]

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  178. it is good, that that exposed vulnerability was not ridiculed.

    it is to your credit.

    said it before, saying it again. learned a lot, from this blog.

    Like


  179. it all makes me wonder, Who you are, you regulars, you lurkers, you sympathizers.

    do i see you, down the street, down the mall, the pub.

    kind of know it, kind of not.

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  180. @Rivelino on his blog wrote a great companion piece to this post:

    And the best way to approach creating playful conflict — the “”best mindset to have — is to focus on being indifferent to her opinion of you, and to focus wholly on amusing yourself, not pleasing her.

    After you have created playful conflict, you need to stand your ground, because she will attempt to make you back down. The infamous shit tests. You cannot back down or apologize. Because if you do, you are back to square one of being easily domesticated.

    Finally, if you do everything right and create playful conflict and not back down, she will either reject you, in which case you exit gracefully, or she will accept your playful dominance, and accept your superior leadership and power.

    If you succeed at establishing playful dominance, then congratulations, she has just entered your world, your frame.””

    This is so true. The hardest thing for me is to maintain perspective.

    When I see betas getting attention from the hot girl I’m gaming, I wonder “What am I doing wrong?”

    Also, when I maintain playful conflict, it builds tension and doesn’t immediately lead to a shag.

    But it’s not about focusing on one girl, it’s about maintaining the “indiffference” frame and not appear fazed by any of the push-back.

    Shit-tests and resistance I’m now convinced can be a “reflex” from girls who are attracted to you. Otherwise there’s no rational reason for it.

    And with those beta orbiters, there’s no resistance or shit-tests because they’re “tamed” into compliance.

    It’s a big perceptual shift to undderstand attraction. It sometimes doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me.

    But when I recognize the signs and patterns and keep my confidence up, my game improves.

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  181. another good analysis, the blogger has been hitting home runs lately.

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  182. I’ll never forget this girl I went out with once. Met her in a club. Date went well, but then at the very end she tried to LJBF me. Claimed that she thought I was just being friendly when I complimented her on how good she looked. She then added – with no compassion whatsoever – that we could get together as friends.

    I responded that I thought it was bullshit, and I like to get laid just as much as her previous boyfriend did.

    She then CRIED.

    ????

    I don’t regret what i said, and i even feel good that i made her cry. but at the end of the day, i still have to wonder what the hell she was thinking.

    thats probably the most puzzling thing ever. when the girl GOES OUT WITH YOU, when youve already established that you want to eat her for breakfast, and they STILL think youre being platonic? and she acted like i hurt HER feelings?

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  183. on November 22, 2010 at 5:20 pm Just A Horny Dude

    Kenton — “I like to get laid just as much as her previous boyfriend did.”

    Brilliant, absolutely brilliant line.

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  184. the last time a girl tried (too late) to LJBF me, i was a bit more direct. i said “i want some pussy, and this friendship bit is no help.”

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