The 4-Date Misrule

A commenter on a blog I occasionally read mentioned an article about women dating beta men, in which the author advised women to pursue a “4-date rule” to screen out players who closely adhere to the well-known 3-date rule.

(For those in the dark, the 3-date rule means pushing for sex by the third date, and if sex is not forthcoming by then, to jettison the girl and cut your losses, because odds are good that a girl who can wait longer than three dates to put out can wait much longer than that. Plus, a girl who will make you wait an inordinate amount of time is likely a girl who isn’t that taken by you. You will find it very difficult to achieve the all-important hand with such a girl.)

A mass movement 4-date rule, i.e., a temporary boycott of sex Lysistrata-style to weed out cads, will never come to pass. The reason why is simple: Women don’t actually want to weed out the cads.

In one of those mating market paradoxes that drives genuine niceguys insane with unrequited hatelust for the opposite sex, women are less attracted to the sort of man who is willing to abide women’s stated preference for delayed sexual gratification. In other words, if you sincerely agree, tacitly or openly, with the woman you are dating to her arbitrary timetable for sex — “Sure, we can wait, I respect you” — you will have decreased the chance she will ever have sex with you. In the primeval mind of a woman, the man who is willing to patiently endure her chasteness, without complaint, is a man who doesn’t have too many other options in women, and thus signals his low mate value. And the longer he is willing to suffer her clamped legs, the less attraction she will feel for him.

Yep, “I like that you respect my wishes” really means, when translated from the womanese, “You’re a boring loser for not disrespecting my wishes.”

Dr. ϕ writes:

[P]erhaps I’ve grown overly cynical from the blogs I read, but my fear is that the message — watch out for players and PUAs — isn’t worth much by the time it gets through female mental filters.

Looks like a cool drink of water but
he’s candy coated misery
He’s the devil in disguise
A snake with blue eyes
And he only comes out at night
He gives you feelings that you dont want to fight . . . .

But PUAs are good at what they do precisely because of their ability to fly under just this type of radar. The guys that get shot down are the same no-game beta providers that have an uphill climb anyway.

So what happens is that when you tell girls, “There are some bad, bad players out there, so be careful,” they impute the “bad, bad player” quality to the guys they already weren’t enthusiastic about. It becomes a justification for being cold and bitchy to people who really didn’t deserve it. Meanwhile, PUAs do their thing unimpeded.

My explanation for why a cultural or motherly message to avoid players gets nibbled down to a nub and pissed on by female rationalization hamsters is a little different than Phi’s: when girls hear that a man is a “bad, bad player”, he becomes more, not less, interesting to them. Girls then flock to this man, and justify their attraction for his cosmic badassness by utilizing an impressive suite of self-serving spin that would be the envy of the most amoral political campaign operative.

Women love interesting men, even the ugly ones. Women loathe dull men, even the handsome ones. The man who flouts societal convention and disregards women’s claimed preferences is an interesting man. The devil in disguise is more desirable to women than the unmasked angel.

In contrast, the man who abides women’s rules soon finds himself ruled out.

Dr. Phi is right about something, though. Those boring beta niceguys who dutifully wait date after date for a meager morsel from that vagina plate are assigned the unflattering judgment by women that women claim the rule-breaking badboys deserve. But you see, deserving’s got nothin’ to do with it. Not when tingles do the talking.

Now as with most sexual market phenomena, a rule does not mean contrary exceptions don’t exist, or that its parameters aren’t a bit flexible. I have waited more than three dates with a few girls in my lifetime. I went a whole five dates with one girl who was particularly beautiful. Of course, it helped my perseverance that I was dating a couple other girls at the time.

If, on the rare occasion, you find yourself dealing with a woman who is bent on making you wait longer than three dates, you need to ask yourself a couple of questions.

1. Does she behave as if she is struggling to contain an irresistible lust for you?

2. Do you see this girl as long-term potential?

If number one is true, you can safely wait longer than three dates without jeopardizing the alpha cred you have with her. A woman who desperately wants to fuck but also wants to wait a bit so you don’t mistake her for a slut is a prized filly. She is worth humoring, because she likes you enough, and respects your masculine desire, to work hard at projecting an image of chastity and future fidelity that you will value. Don’t worry about being able to tell if she is this type of girl; you’ll know by her flushed face as she’s breathlessly uttering the words “not tonight”, and feebly pushing off from you, that she’s really into you, and that the calculated waiting period is one of mutual respect and deep interest, not one borne of flagging attraction.

If number two is true, it would be in *your* interest to allow her the luxury of a perfunctory waiting period. You will perceive a woman who has made you wait as a high value woman more worthy of your long-term investment and resources than a slutty same night lay would be. This perception operates at the subconscious level; you have little control over it.

If neither of those prerequisites are true, get the bang sooner rather than later, or cut your losses after the third date. (Some would say the second date should be your limit; I have no quarrel with that.) The danger in adhering to women’s waiting periods is that you 1. drain power by the date, resulting in lost hand, and 2. diminish the woman’s attraction for you.

The fact of the matter is that the strongest, most intensely romantic relationships often start the most passionately, punctuated by sexual immediacy. The great advantage to *not* waiting for sex on a woman’s prerogative is that you are in the driver’s seat; you can choose to pump and dump or to pursue a relationship after you have sated yourself. You are in no position to think clearly as long as your balls remain filled with brain-blocking sperm. At least if you have banged a girl on the first date, you know for certain she’s into you, and nothing bonds a woman to a man better than sex.

A curious trick you can try on women who seem like the types to follow a “wait to mate” strategy is to preempt their objections by insisting on waiting yourself. As she’s kissing you, say, “Oh, hey, I’m not like most men. I don’t want to have sex until later, maybe much later. I have to get to know you first before I go there.” It”s a bit cheesy, but when it works, it really works. She will wonder why you aren’t all over her like so many other men, and this challenge to her broad but shallow princess ego will spur her to sexual aggressiveness, until she is satisfied she has defeated your principles. Then you may allow yourself a victorious chortle.


  1. This is one of the few things I actually disagree with the PUA community on. I have found through trail and error that when i’m not pressing, when i’m not forcing the issue and I take it slow, I can nail the bitch to the ground and she begs for more. It’s when i move quickly and try to secure quick bangs that the whole deal explodes. And it’s much easier for me to mvoe slower when i’m spinning multiple plates because id ont’ really care if i bang her tonight, because i just got laid last night by my other option. In fact, I usually score the bang on about the 5th date and by then the chick is so emotionally invested in the transaction that it would take a modern day moron to loswe hand and screw it up.

    I think the optmimal strategy is to actually lay back, not touch, not press, just lay low and then pounce on about date 5 with diner at your place and a timely bang. Once you bang her then, you can literally bang her for the next 12 months.

    Just throw in a “i like to tak things slow, i’m really interested AFTER the bang….and she will not know what to do.”


    • I can tolerate 5 dates, but no more than 3 typos.
      Consider yourself pump and sumped.


    • “It’s when i move quickly and try to secure quick bangs that the whole deal explodes.”

      If it explodes before the lay, you have shitty calibration. If it explodes after the lay (ie – you can’t keep her around for more than a few hookups after that), you have shitty after-lay game aka fuckbuddy management (managing buyer’s remorse, diffusing and avoiding triggering anti-slut defense, emotional push/pull, etc).

      No offense intended, I’m just saying its your game that’s weak (in this one area), not PUA tactics. There’s still an art to the push/pull involved in moving quickly, you don’t run in like a bull in a china shop with your cock flailing around.

      And that’s fine, you don’t have to be good at this style of game. What you’re doing fits your lifestyle and satisfies you and most importantly it works, so keep it up, I’m not talking shit here. I’m just defending the PUA tech because it’s solid even if you couldn’t make it work.

      Hell if I had a bunch of money and free time (and patience lol) I’d go on dates too. They’re just inconvenient to me right now and I’d rather skip to the sex. But whatever fits your lifestyle, run with it and more power to ya.


      • When you move fast, chicks get buyer’s remorse and freak out. I’ve seen it happen a milion times. When Mystery said 7 hrs, he wasn’t lying. It’s really hard to push it quicker than 7 hrs and keep it flowing. THe chick either freaks out, or is a total slut. Neither is what i’m looking for. I think the 10 hr rule is probably more fit for the current marketplace…considering most men paw and group from the 1 hr mark. My strategy is:

        Date 1.) Don’t touch, don’t talk about the next date, active disinterest, make no mention of seeing her again. A hug and a good bye at the end. Keep date short and two drinks minimum.
        Date 2.) Don’t touch before she has two drinks in her, then esclate, make out happens 98% of the time.
        Date 3.) Usually some sort of activity like a baseball game or some other bullshit nonsense. More making out….but don’t take her back to my place just yet.
        Date 4.) Make her dinner at your place. Push for the bang if you can, but don’t make it or break it.
        Date 5.) Weekend night. Heavy on the Drinks. I usually close 90+% and they all stick around after i bang.

        I can tell you one thing. Touching them on the first date and pushing hard just doesn’t work on a consistent basis, it just doesn’t seem to lead to long term stable success for me. Maybe it’s just my personal style. The ones i succeed with freak out. The ones i esclate kino and go hard but don’t get a kiss from, never return my call.

        Active disinterest is so unpracticed by men in the field that it’s like kat nip to chicks. I think you can raise your value by almost two full points on a 1-10 scale just by acting like you don’t want to fuck her and with a proper volume of negs.

        Most dudes group and paw at chicks from the get go and telegraph that they want to fuck them right out of the gate. Simply acting like you don’t care if you fuck them seems to be pretty poweful from my experience in the field. And building a soft harem of 3 chicks is really the best place to be in life. And landing them and banging them is only one step in the game. YOu have to be able to bang them and keep them around….that’s testestament to a guy that really knows what he is doing.


      • “When you move fast BADLY and UNCALIBRATED and don’t know how to diffuse ASD and Buyer’s Remorse because your game in that category is shit.”

        Fixed your quote for you. I’ll respond in depth later. Myself and the guys I hang with and tons of PUAs are obliterating the 7 hour rule and have been for a while. 7 hours makes for a really solid lay, but you can do it in under 7 hours and have it be as solid. My bread and butter is fast lays + keeping fuckbuddies around for months-years.

        No worries, I’ll write some tips.


      • Yep, you hit the nail on the head here.


      • I like these rules…but I would add the kiss close the first date though. Some guys think kissing = touching. But the way a woman looks at it…they really are two different things.

        Plus you have a pretty good idea where you stand after that. Even more so than just getting her number.


      • Chicks don’t use a 1-10 scale. You are Justin Timberlake (/local Justin Timberlake), your personality counts, or ew you creep. Most of you are in personality counts by vast majority,I’d say it’s 1%(15%) 60% 25% depending on hot/and or shallow the chick is the percentage will vary. If one is going pure hot chick using shallow criteria. When chicks use different criteria the attraction equations would just be too crazy to put numbers on.


      • math is hard.


      • Most people don’t meet nonetheless have a chance to fuck celebrities so it’s basically irrelevant and more like .001 but the basic premise is stands.


      • You’re not really competing with celebrities though so it shouldn’t be a percentage at all unless you live in L.A./or some similar area even then it’s still far from the norm.Basic premise is that for the most part it’s about personality that could sway either way in most cases.


      • Since you don’t even kiss on the 1st day, most men, not just PUA’s think you are a loser.


      • Keep in mind that some women will “next” a guy if they don’t think he’s got the balls to make a move. By date #5, you’re probably halfway to the friend zone.

        I can see how “active disinterest” can be a powerful thing which really sends out the alpha vibes. But women want to feel “genuine” passion and desire, so you’d either have to balance the two or switch-over quickly. I figure that if a girl agrees to go to dinner, she’s probably already shlicked one off in your honor, and you can play it a bit cool. (talking social game here) But eventually you need to turn up the heat.


      • I don’t think i have ever been friend zoned. Just doesnt’ happen. There are two ways to slice a sandwich….i’m just offering my view from the field. I have tried it both ways. Pushing hard and laying back. Laying back seems to work best when it comes to closing and keeping them around.


      • on September 11, 2012 at 8:01 pm anonymous does not forgive

        But then you have to sit through 5 boring nights of dating before you get to the good part. Not to mention all the $$$ you’re spending, at that point it’s cheaper to get a hooker.


      • The chick freaks out because you think if she sleeps with you in less than 7 hours, she’s a total slut. She picks up on that judgement you’re projecting. You have a madonna/whore complex that you aren’t conscious of. So what happens is the slutty girls sleep with you in under 7 hours because they’re acting the way you expect them to act, and the nicer girls freak out if they sleep with you in under 7 hours because they can tell you think they’re a slut, and you aren’t good (yet) at managing their emotions in the after-math (aka calibrating to what she’s feeling) because of your madonna/whore complex (you legitimately think she’s a slut), so they get Buyer’s Remorse.

        Understand this: YOU are causing the reaction you’re getting.

        Part of getting women to sleep with you fast and not freak out is not judging them. It’s understanding that women are sexual creatures and that we all want to bang and that there’s nothing wrong with that. When a girl sleeps with me in a few hours, she feels as good about that decision as a girl who sleeps with me after a few dates. Buyer’s Remorse and freakouts happen when she regrets her decision, or just feels bad about it or like it wasn’t a good idea.

        The difference between you and I is that you just don’t know (or seem to have an interest in, since your ego has already created your limiting beliefs that you need 5 dates and you have your routine and that’s just “how it works”) how to ensure that the girl feels good about putting out.

        This is actually an internal issue, not an external one. It’s also one that you’ll probably roll your eyes at because like I say, you’ve created an identity for yourself and already built up a bunch of bullshit like “other guys grope and paw at them right out of the gate!” and “this method is like cat-nip!” to make yourself feel better about it. You’ll literally ignore what I’m saying and stick to your current method instead of going out and learning to diffuse Buyer’s Remorse and ASD for a few months. That’s why I’m not putting much effort into this response.

        You are essentially the Karate guy who talks smack about other martial arts saying they don’t work and Karate is the best lol

        When you can make a girl NOT feel like a slut for sleeping with you in under 7 hours, they’ll sleep with you quickly AND come back for more. I have fuckbuddies I’ve kept around for months, even a couple that I’ve seen frequently for over a year, and a lot where I haven’t talked to them in months/years but I could shoot a txt their way and re-ignite it easily if I wanted to (even if they have boyfriends now) because they know they can bang me and I won’t judge them.

        But hey, if what you’re doing works for you, keep doing what your doing. I don’t have a problem with your method (although it’s way too slow for me), I only have a problem with you making adamant claims that pushing it quicker than 7 hours doesn’t work. That’s a retarded limiting belief on your part, other guys (including myself) are shitting all over the 7 hour rule regularly lol


      • Awesome. Write a book. Please.


    • Girls don’t wait till the 5th date to make up their mind!

      If a girl is willing to go on 5 dates with you then she would have surely given it up on date 3 and probably on date 2. You are the problem, not the PUA community.


      • It’s not whether or not she wants to have sex with you. It’s her stressing out over whether you’ll think she’s a whore or not. Unless, you’re only into picking up sluts in bars.


      • That’s an overused lame excuse.

        Sorry, but if said chicks was really so stressed out about being labelled a whore, then she would NEVER sleep with someone before X dates. Yet the vast majority of women are all over the map in their history… ie one night stands all the way to beta orbiter charity fucks.


      • “It’s her stressing out over whether you’ll think she’s a whore or not.”

        Agreed. 99% of guys have a madonna/whore complex and girls know it. Part of fast seduction is making it clear very quickly to the girl that you won’t judge them for fucking you. This is part of the Secret Society concept where no one judges eachother.

        If another guy and I both go out with the same girl, but he yaps about how he was raised in a traditional family with good moral values blah blah blah, she’s not going to sleep with him for a few dates. Meanwhile I’ll be yapping about sex like it’s no big deal and trading sexual adventure stories with her where she can see that I’m totally chill about sex and don’t treat it like it’s a big deal, so she’ll sleep with me on that first date.

        Unfortunately the madonna/whore complex runs DEEP in this society. Well, unfortunately for other guys lol, it works out great for ME. 🙂


      • Nice observation.

        I just commented about the virgin/whore thing further downthread.


      • Oh man… dude…

        How many guys ACTUALLY sabotage his own pussy on a 1st date, by vilifying “sluts” to the woman he’s with?? Almost none.

        Why do you think that the madonna/whore complex is the only thing feminists RE-use from Sigmund Freud? Seriously think about it.

        Banging whores, but marrying a virgin is as old as time and very fucking alpha. You really need to internalize game a lot more than you have. Right now you’re like a veneer of game over a feminist, mangina former beta particle board core. Wake the fuck up.


      • Yeah it’s funny how that seems to be a major yareally bug.
        We try and try and he just doesn’t get it.

        Yareally, please reread evilalpha’s second paragraph:

        How many guys ACTUALLY sabotage his own pussy on a 1st date, by vilifying “sluts” to the woman he’s with?? Almost none.

        How many guys ACTUALLY sabotage his own pussy on a 1st date, by vilifying “sluts” to the woman he’s with?? Almost none.

        Thank you. I’m done trying.


      • That’s like saying “how many guys give their hand away in a poker game by shouting out their cards?”

        They don’t do it consciously. It’s in the subtleties that come with the mentality, from body language to tone of voice to how they keep in contact afterward to how they react to certain things in the environment on the date, etc etc.

        Two guys bang the same girl: one cuddles with her after and says “it’s cool if you crash here” and they get breakfast in the morning. The other backs off as soon as they bang and calls her a cab. Which guy will she think thinks she’s a slut?

        This isn’t rocket science guys lol I make my examples blatant and obvious for the same reason children’s books use big fonts.

        There’s also nothing wrong with a madonna/whore belief system, I’ve never qualified it as a bad thing. All I’m saying is that it limits you from getting certain results. Don’t get all emotional like a chick on me here, I’m logically saying 2 + 2 = 4 and you’re crying because you have 2 + 1 = 4 and I marked it with an X on your test. It’s not a judgement, I’m just telling you the formula. If you have no interest in getting 4 and you’re perfectly happy with what 2 + 1 equals, keep on keepin on.

        Jesus, it’s like PMS time in here. Where’s that period tracking app so I can mark this down?


      • @YaReally

        That’s like saying “how many guys give their hand away in a poker game by shouting out their cards?”

        Yup… exactly…. and here’s why.

        1. Most women are not sharp enough to pick up a poker tell anymore than they are keen enough to notice you view her as a slut.
        2. If she does recognize the truth in either case… it’s because you are one shitty player..and too obvious!
        3. Banging sluts isn’t Vegas high stakes gambling with strangers. It’s a game of penny poker with your boys.

        Nowm I understand how some dudes need Orwellian illusions to help them cope with the sluts they bang, but that’s on them. “Sluts” aren’t just some misogynist construction of the eeeevil patriarchy. They exist and are everywhere and everyone must deal with that in one way or another.

        Here are the three current approaches to “sluts”

        A. Sluts are akin to lepers and should be stoned. (Muslims and religious manginas)
        B. Sluts don’t exist. (Liberal beta dudes, and of course sex possie feminists)
        C. Sluts are there to service my cock. Thank god for sluts, but none are meeting my momma. (Alpha apes and Kings)

        You really need to get out of category B and into category C


      • 1. Because they don’t play poker. They’ve been playing “watch out for being shamed/judged for your actions/thoughts” since they were kids. Boys aren’t judged as harshly through their lives for thinking/talking about sex or trying to get sex or having sex.

        2. Vast majority of guys have zero poker face when it comes to girls talking about sex, especially face to face. It’s not something they run into very often so it’s not something they’ve had to learn to do. Just like a guy who’s never played poker won’t have a good poker face in his first game.

        3. Your mom and sister are as slutty as the girl shaking her ass on the bar. Or do you think they’ve only sucked one dick in their life? If you think any girl you know is a “good girl”, you’re living in a fantasy world. But whatever helps you sleep at night lol


      • except girls who sleep with guys that quickly ARE whores. You talk about guys having a “madonna/whore complex” as if its a character flaw. It’s not. Its just a firm grasp on reality.

        Now if you want to talk about ways to set non-judgmental frames and pretend you don’t have a madonna/whore complex, that I can get down with. But don’t try to convince me the girls you sleep with on the first nights aren’t fucking skanks. Maybe deep down you actually believe they aren’t sluts and its just societal conditioning and all that shit, and that probably helps you set non-judgemental frames because its what you think is true, but its still bullshit and you’re wrong.


      • What were you expecting, virgins?


      • Yareally’s illusion works for him because he doesn’t have the political skill to pull off fucking a slut while accepting her for the enhanced masturbation tool that she really is. So he MUST delude himself. It’s never gonna bite him in the ass though because he also doesn’t want to have kids or marry. Guys like Jason however end up paying full price for a cock carousel rider and thus feminism wins.


      • Sorry man, I know you can’t relate anymore than a religious person could relate if I said I didn’t believe in god or anymore than a racist person could relate if I said I didn’t think black people were the filth of society.

        I legit don’t consider girls who put out early for me to be sluts. Sex is sex, it’s just a physical act like exercise. Maybe you wrap way more emotions in it than I do.

        There are girls I consider slutty and don’t have an interest in, but it’s not based on whether they put out quickly for ME. Of course she puts out quickly for me, she’d be retarded NOT to, I’m more attractive than any other guy she’s met or going to meet and she’s going to feel amazing and happy that she made the decision to sleep with me.


      • Yareally no need to get defensive about this: there’s nothing wrong with fucking sluts.

        Girls who put out quick for random guys have low control over their hypergamous instincts, have low respect for their body and health, risk their mental stability and they erode their value as a long-term mate with each dick they take. There is nothing wrong with fucking girls who do this as long as you aren’t committing time/emotions/money to them. It appears you are doing this correctly as you screen for fuck buddies. Cool, man. Do what you do. But these things matter when you’re committing more than just a load or two week per week to a girl. Girls know this, which is why things like the “4 date rule” are based on biology, not societal conditioning.

        I don’t mean to shake your inner game, but maybe these girls fuck you so fast because you’re the most awesome snowflake who has ever existed, OR maybe, just maybe, they fuck because you’re just awesome enough and they’re just slutty enough.


      • Nag, I avoid the ones that put out for any random guy. It’s no fun if it isn’t a challenge lol

        You’re free to think what you like though. When I was a newbie I thought any girl who made out with a guy in under 3 dates was a slut too. Social conditioning is powerful that way, but you’ll break thru that with enough experience.


      • *Nah


    • This is an important topic. I’m in East Europe. Surrounded by a lot of women. I actually don’t WANT to close quickly. I’m in my 40s and with most girls I meet, well, I’ve already had relationships their type before. I know where they lead. Been down that road and don’t need to go again. So I hang back, see if I’m surprised and meanwhile pursue other options. The problem with trying to close quickly is that then you create all sorts of psychic/karmic issues with THAT GIRL who you’ve already (in principle) had years before. So to keep things clean it’s best to just have a few dates without much happening and let her go if she doesn’t feel like a keeper. This must be heresy but again I’m in my 40s.

      The notion that waiting actually makes it HARDER to close with the keepers may have some merit. But for me the keepers are so rare and I get so excited by them that I don’t think it’s an obstacle. (But I could be wrong.)


    • on September 12, 2012 at 2:36 am Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

      da gbfm lives by da .5 date rule zlzozoolzolzolz

      during dinner if i’m not geteting a nhandjob under da table before destert to rpovide da whipped cream with my spllogegge, den i call “next!” lzozozozolzzoz


  2. I wouldn’t be too worried about this rule, after 4/5 dates I always eject, whether I get laid or not, because if I’ve bedded her, the put cock back in the box syndrome invariably starts up. If I haven’t bedded her than she’s going to be problematic on a lot of levels that I do not have the patience for. Plus there’s always a new one around the corner.


  3. As long as date doesn’t mean expensive romantic dinner at a fancy restaurant followed by an awkward kiss, you’re good.


  4. In Game, there is a subtle balance that needs to be recognized between risks of over-investing in a particular woman with regards to practicality and not throwing the proverbial baby out with the bath water and losing on a potentially rewarding opportunity. Women, as is particular to their own Game, will naturally come down on the side of casting doubt on a man’s valid assessment of a woman’s potential value, both in long term perspectives and potential sexual satisfaction. This presumption of doubt is a built in failsafe social convention for women; “if only you’d been more patient, if only you invested a little bit more, you’d be rewarded with a great mother for your children and the best pussy of your life – don’t blow it now!”

    Put it this way, with just average Game, in 3 dates you should be able to determine if her desire level is high enough to want to fuck you.

    In 3 dates you’ll know if her desire is genuine or if it’s mitigated by something else – another guy in rotation, sexual hangups, filibustering, etc.

    In 3 dates you’ll have had sex or you’ll have had the “I wanna wait / I need to be comfortable talk.”

    If you have sex on the 1st date or a same-night-lay, in all likelihood she’s really hot for, and into, fucking you based on physical criteria alone.

    If you have sex on the 2nd or 3rd date, she’s into fucking you and probably wants a relationship because she wanted to give you a token impression of her not being ‘easy’.

    If she fucks you after the 4th date, you’ll do as her first alternate.

    If you’re sexless after 5-6 dates you’ve probably been at it for over 6 weeks, you’re over-invested and The Medium is the Message. NEXT.


    • The only thing missing here is if she’s truly high-status hot and shows high interest in you and she actually is a rare bird that might be worth long term status.

      In that case, making *her* wait through your indifference may captivate her at the subconscious level. You can even toss in a LJBF for good frame, letting her be the orbiter for once. Get her retardly confused about why you’re different than every other schlub, then make the kill completely on your terms. Dominate.

      Of course, you need tight game, plenty of backups, and be able to resist all her wiles, but when it comes to hot women who aren’t dumb as sand, this has been the only way for me to keep them interested for the long term.


    • “If you have sex on the 1st date or a same-night-lay, in all likelihood she’s really hot for, and into, fucking you based on physical criteria alone.”

      I heart you but I disagree with this. The problem is most guys don’t realize just how much you can DO on a 1st date if you’re efficient.

      Think of it like this: there are, say, 5 switches (totally just making this up for analogy sake) you have to flip for the girl to picture you as a long-term potential. 99% of guys will walk into the room and flip switch 1, then walk around the room for a bit and flip switch 2, then take a nap and eat a sandwich and walk in circles for a bit and flip switch 3…then they go on another date where she’s forgotten he flipped switch 3 so he starts back over at flipping switch 3. Then he meanders around and eventually accidentally bumps into switch 4. He thinks he’s done because he doesn’t even realize there’s a 5th switch. So she doesn’t quite put out yet. The next date they go on she’s hoping he’ll flip the 5 th switch he’s oblivious to but he’s a little clueless and she likes him because of the last 4 switches so she says fuck it and helps him along and guides him to the 5th switch. Now they fuck.

      What a really solid/advanced PUA does is just walk along that wall of switches and go “flick, flick, flick, flick, flick.” on date 1.

      To relate it to standard game for the guys new to this, it’s like how you know a girl wants to see that you’re a desirable guy. So you know that another girl (like an ex) hitting on you in front of your date is going to flip that trigger. Now you can take your date out somewhere random and cross your fingers that maybe something will happen to show your date that you’re desirable. And it might happen if the universe aligns right, or it might happen on the 3rd date, or it might not happen.

      Now what if you strategically made sure to take your date to a place where you knew your flirty ex was going to be that night?

      Another example: you know that your date wants comfort and to feel like she really knows you and has spent a lot of time with you. So you take her on a 5 hour date at a restaraunt. It’s great, except that by hour 1 the environment becomes familiar and she only has reference experiences in her head of being in one scenario with you. Now what if you take the PUA concept of leading and venue changing? So in one date you go to 5 different places, where each new environment you enter with her she gains another reference experience of being safe and bonding with you against the environment (we call this creating an Us VS Them bubble/frame). Now she’s still only been on one date but psychologically she FEELS like she’s been on 5 dates with you.

      Or take social proof. You know she wants to make sure you’re a good solid guy who everyone likes and isn’t some creepy shadow weirdo or evil player who will manipulate her (lol). You could take her out on a date to some random place and hope you run into some friends you know who will verify that you’re a good guy. Maybe that could happen by date 3 if you’re just wandering around taking her to a museum and theatre and shit.

      But what if you intentionally started the date at a cute little cafe near your place where the staff all know you by name and love you?

      Basically most guys, even players and PUAs who haven’t read the old PUA literature, go on extremely inefficient dates. That’s why for those guys, ya, her banging them on day 1 probably means she just liked their looks, because they have shitty game and haven’t flipped all the other triggers. But when you get advanced that guideline no longer applies.

      Not a lot of emphasis is put on the “Day 2” (aka the first date) these days because 1) everyone wants to chase the Same Night Lay these days and 2) we already solved Day 2’s as a community, there’s tons of PUA literature on how to build a solid Day 2 plan out there so there’s not much ground left to cover.

      My “dates” are designed very specifically to flip the right attraction switches as quickly and efficiently as possible. Her sleeping with me on date 1 is based on as much non-physical criteria as her sleeping with a normal guy on date 3. That’s solid game. 🙂


      • A guy giving game advice who uses emoticons. Hilarious. Talk about a modern day oxymoron.


      • One must have some means of conveying one’s shit-eatin’ grin.


      • Efficient is right, but its as much about dating logistics as triggers. My previous favorite bar closed at 1am, was staffed with all hotties and was within walking distance of my place.

        Step 1. Meet me at my place and walk over…
        Step 2. Walk back to my place and continue the party.
        Step 3. Fuck.


      • Fucking drunk bar sluts is as alpha as snagging a fly ball from a fourth grader. Just fyi :)!


      • And yet betas can’t seem to do either.

        You’re not cute when you’re angry. So shhhh….


      • You don’t understand the concept of beta is fluid depending on time, environment, and culture(species behavior also but let’s not go that far). Your def and mine are different and I bet most guys would be more interested in knowing mine because mine counts other than in macho pissing contests. Some people have standards and don’t find hookers or people unable to actually consent or be human like during sex as acceptable or enjoyable. You should learn to respect differences in man as well as woman. There’s no need to insult people or feel threatened by people with different opinions than yours.


      • Most guys don’t care what women say… we just watch. Beta and Alpha is defined by your southern lips, not your northern ones.

        And what’s up with your obsession with hookers? Did some ex do you wrong? You know this is a pua site right?


      • “Efficient is right, but its as much about dating logistics as triggers.”

        Yep, that’s all part and parcel of building a solid Day 2 plan.

        Who’s going to get laid more, the guy driving a girl across town to some fancy restaraunt where he feels uncomfortable at having to use a specific fork for his salad, or you taking her to a bar just up the street from you where the hot staff chicks know you and you feel totally relaxed and comfortable.

        I think a lot of guys focus on the initial interaction and don’t realize there’s a TON of PUA information on designing a solid Day 2 out there, and how much different a solid Day 2 will actuall make in their results.


      • What’s also been left unsaid in this whole discussion is the interaction between date 1 & date 2. Solid txt game, deft use of IM/chat for building attraction, sexual vibe & emotional connection, all build momentum & energy for that date 2. In my experience, putting in the work in the in-between makes all the difference.


  5. […] really, but there are exceptions, as this post by Heartiste demonstrates : If, on the rare occasion, you find yourself dealing with a woman who is bent on making you wait […]


  6. ** “As she’s kissing you, say, “Oh, hey, I’m not like most men. I don’t want to have sex until later, maybe much later. I have to get to know you first before I go there.” ** ”

    I’ve found that this works more often than some might think and is most effective with closet submissive Asian women. Going against what the perceive as the norm for American men when you shut them down, the hamster starts spinning and their minds fill with an overwhelming amount of self-doubt. As her intensity increases in an effort to prove her worth, you have to decide whether to continue the thread of making her wait, or make a show of slowly giving in to her desires.

    Just beware that if you make her wait, it could always go the opposite way and shut her down completely.


    • on September 12, 2012 at 1:10 am Days of Broken Arrows

      This definitely works. I found out by accident by breaking off kissing a girl when I just didn’t like the way she kissed and that got me thinking I really didn’t like her, etc. Unfortunately, the rejection got her more into me and I really, really didn’t want even to talk to her after a while, much less sleep with her. But if done for a response, I can see this achieving the end goal.


  7. Funny, I once had a girl I told I didn’t want to sleep with -yet-. Had a great night of connecting without actually having sex. In the months after that, she was actively trying to get me to sleep with her every time.
    The best part being that I honestly didn’t want to have sex too soon, it makes it hard to decide if she’s actually that long-term-investment girl once you’ve slept with her. Women bond through sex, but men too.

    Even years later, she reminisces and I can still make her wet just by taking her mind back to the past. If both single, we’re going to have to try that again someday.


  8. “A mass movement 4-date rule, i.e., a temporary boycott of sex Lysistrata-style to weed out cads, will never come to pass. The reason why is simple: Women don’t actually want to weed out the cads.”

    When this author is on, he is really on. That simple construction conveys in brief what people sometimes take years to understand, if they ever grasp it at all.


  9. Once again, the PU community should less worry about numbers and more trust their instincts. Fuck rules like the 3-second rule, 3-date rule etc – they are just for lousy guys who alwas stick like slaves to protocols thinking it makes them successful. Such rules might be useful initially to develop a deeper sense whats going on in women, but often they do more bad then good.
    Getting women is not rocket science, it needs no stupid tricks or obeying certain rules… Women are programmed to crave men, not all men, but when you are self-confident, even a bit arrogant or at least not a pussy-slave, funny to talk to and have something going on in your life, ladies will like you.
    Just remember that you are a man and it’s your natural right to have your own opinion and to pursue women, it will work – of course you have to escalate things once she is hot for you, but give her time to become hot for you…who cares if it takes two, 3, or 7 dates.
    Best is not to date at all, rather include her in the things you are doing anyway, this conveys the perfect “I don’t really care” attitude which is crucial for getting women.


    • The PUA community was created because lots of guys have shitty instincts..thus the numbers. If it takes 7 dates to bang a chick you are surely doing something wrong.


      • Yep. The community wasn’t created by cool guys who decided to get super obsessive. It was created by the same guys who spent a year living in their computer room playing World of Warcraft instead of socializing. Those guys don’t HAVE “things they’re doing anyway” to invite girls along to and they have nothing but negative reference experiences telling them they DON’T have a “natural right to their own opinion and to pursue women”.

        You can’t even relate to these guys, so you would never be able to help them…it’s probably best for your frustration to just not read pickup sites/discussions.

        Rich Celebrity to a Blue Collar Worker: “Your car broke down? I don’t get what the big deal is, why don’t you just have your butler bring the limo around to get you?”



      • Reading helps – I don’t date, I just bring girls along things I do anyhow. And sometimes logistics prevent an earlier close. Don’t get stuck on numbers, enjoy yourself, enjoy the world, enjoy women…


      • You wrote this “who cares if it takes two, 3, or 7 dates.”



  10. Or as I always heard about relationships…

    “You don’t get what you deserve…only what you can negotiate.”


  11. “If there was a male slut walk, featuring shirtless men with bulging crotches in leather pants, would feminists be offended by the intrusion?”

    Um, that’s a gay pride parade. So no, they probably wouldn’t be offended.


    • They happily join the walk, because they are oh so liberal and open-minded.

      P.S: Don’t get me wrong, being gay might be un-natural but there is nothing wrong with it!


      • Is this a confession?


      • No, I just don’t like homophobia.
        It’s okay to discredit people based on multiple reason like e.g. being a lazy bastard not contributing to society, but sexual orientation should not be such a reason, since it’s not harmful to society.

        In the end, it means just more girls for you and me and other straight men.


      • Faggots ain’t all cake and ice cream. There’s more pussy for us, but they vote like shit, side withe feminists, and are bad for the country overall.


      • And then there’s that pesky STD/HIV issue…

        Not to mention no musicals without the obligatory queer/race-mixing nods.


  12. if she’s making you wait, chances are she’s banging some other guy who she didn’t make wait. also, you probably aren’t the only one waiting.

    remember: alpha fucks and beta bucks.


    • You all are paranoid. It’s the same as cheaters accusing the other person of cheating. You think because you do it everyone else is. Nah it ain’t like that with most people. You just have to take the time to actually figure out who people are and what values and interests motivates them. After that it’s pretty is easy to tell what they will or won’t do.


      • I think its good policy to wait just to see who you’re getting involved with. Sex ain’t football or table tennis.


      • The funny part is it shouldn’t take that much time depending on the peoples openness and how much social interaction ones I think people just need a little more patience.


      • So every guy you ever fucked… you fucked after the same number of dates????

        Nope. STFU


      • None of your business because this discussion isn’t about me per se as most people. From observation of many and varied people in various locations most woman don’t sport fuck on the side and never will. This mentality is used to justify ones own bad behavior by attributing a worse behavior to the person(s) in question. Psych 101 you need to take it.

        I enjoy engaging people on a personal basis in conversation but this is neither the time nor the place guy.Your question was not even appropriate to the o.c. in any manner so stop derailing.


      • This surely is about you princess.

        If there was any consistency to you spreading your legs there wouldn’t have been so much deflection.


      • I/= everyone or most people. That is not a deflection just staying on topic. If this is about me it’s stupid because I’m a poker playing dog for all you know.

        Back on point men are paranoid about woman sexual history even though there are these crazy new things called tests to check for anything serious. Statistically men usually have a higher partner count as woman generally aren’t interested in sex as much in general (I loathe to express myself in generalities). Individuals will obviously vary. The problem is y’all are looking for a short cut which may or may not get the desired results but also too many unintended ones in some cases.

        [heartiste: a high male partner count is a feature, not a bug. you will never see the light as long as you cling to the delusion that men and women are in any way significantly similar in their romantic or sexual psychologies.]


      • @wingwoman

        So now a slut is JUST gurls that have “diseases”? LMAO.
        No honey. That shit don’t fly. A slut means you fucked too many guys and too quickly. You must be a pin cushion with defense mechanisms like yours.


      • sport fucking on the side is only bad behavior when it’s done by a woman.


      • We’ll listen to your advice after you’ve picked up and banged 10 girls.



  13. I mostly agree with heartiste here, though a woman’s agenda is always at play and that agenda differs by her age. When a woman looks for a suitor at a young age, she seeks a cad. When she seeks a man worthy of being a biological father, she seeks a cad. When she seeks a man to fall for, she seeks a cad. Once she enters baby/financial agenda years, she may actually seek a wealthy beta male (with no intentions of sleeping with him for very long or ever becoming impregnated by him), and thus these three or four date rules are applied by women who are older and are looking for money and/or work to be outsourced.

    These women are seeking financial and/or daddy-commitment (not an actual father, but a person to be the “social father” – ie: doing the work of a father) so they can outsource their work while sleeping with alphas on the side, or – when they become sexually irrelevant (39+) – have someone to take care of them. As an older and much wiser man once warned me, “A woman will make her agenda, your agenda if she becomes your wife.” Alphas should sleep with girls quickly, or as heartiste mentioned, if waiting a while, sleep with several girls on the side to avoid an emotional and mental commitment.

    A woman married to a millionaire who works all the time, while she hooks up with many men on the side is no fool (in fact, she’s a brilliant business strategist when you think about it). She’s outsourced all the things she hates while having her fun on the side. The articles about a four date or three date rule really help women learn how to find the men to outsource the life they want and leave beta men clueless into thinking that these are “morally good and wise” women.


    • “A woman married to a millionaire who works all the time, while she hooks up with many men on the side is no fool (in fact, she’s a brilliant business strategist when you think about it). She’s outsourced all the things she hates while having her fun on the side.”

      lol very true. This is why I don’t hate these women, I fully understand the logic behind what they’re doing and for them it’s actually an optimal strategy, especially considering how the law and society will back them up and provide massive failsafes/compensation if she gets caught and divorced.

      The trick is just making sure you’re the pool boy and not the 100-hour work-week millionaire.


  14. The real PUAs I hang with have a Two Date rule. If they don’t make contact under her underwear by the end of the second date, they move on. Some even insist on intercourse by date 2 or there is no Date 3.

    This can be a lot of fun to watch. Hank is a friend of mine, 38, senior level administrator, six figures, good shape, and he’s thinking about starting a family . . . maybe if he meets the right girl. In the meantime, he has no compunctions about going out with as many auditions for the role as he can. Hank was the first dude I knew who enforced the 2nd Date rule, and I was amazed the first time I witnessed the following one-sided conversation over the phone after a second date that didn’t end the way he wanted it to. I’m only guessing at her words, but I’d venture it was a pretty accurate guess.

    “Hey, Hank! I just wanted to thank you for taking me out last night!”

    “Hey. Yeah, I had a good time, too.” Not particularly enthusiastic.

    “Well, when would you like to do it again? Maybe dinner this Friday?”

    “Well . . . I’m not sure that’s a good idea.” Reluctantly.

    “But . . . but . . . I thought we had a really good time!”

    “Look, I did have a good time — you seem like a really nice girl. But . . . well, I have certain standards for how I date, and if things haven’t progressed to a point I’m happy with by the second date, it usually means it’s time to move on.”

    “What do you mean, ‘progressed’? I thought we clicked really well! I don’t know about you, but I felt some chemistry.” Starting to feel rejected, defensive, Hamster set to stun.

    “Hey, I said I had a good time — but if you didn’t feel enough chemistry to want to get intimate with me, then don’t you think it’s in both of our interests to cut our losses and find people who are more appropriate?” Sounding dire, but grinning his head off.

    I…I like you a lot, Hank, but I’m not the kind of girl who’s going to throw herself at a guy like that. I have some class. I’m not about to get intimate with a guy on a second date — you might be an axe murderer or something!” Attempt to recover with poor humor — Ladies, never mention a dude you’ve dated might be an axe murderer. It’s insulting and poor form, even in jest.

    “Well, that’s fine, honey, it’s good to hear that there are girls with standards out there. But if you aren’t woman enough to try to close me by the second date, then I doubt you’re woman enough to handle a real relationship with me. I prefer women who aren’t afraid to go after what they want.” This puts her in a hard position: essentially using her defensiveness and insecurity about being rejected for a third date to convince her to argue in favor of a future sexual encounter. Hank is adept at controlling the frame.

    Hey! If I want something, then I go after it!

    “Yet you didn’t go after me — see? So why waste a third date on something that clearly isn’t going anywhere? You’re really a very sweet girl, but I’m looking for something that’s going to be serious and work out, long-term. If you aren’t willing to commit your body to me after knowing me for two dates, then you don’t know if you want me. And if you don’t know if you want me, then that kills the whole ‘chemistry’ thing. Either you want me and will do what it takes to get me, or you don’t and we’re just screwing around. I’m a busy man, I don’t screw around, so . . . unless you can give me a compelling reason (hint: sexual) to ask you out again, then I think it’s best we both pursue other options.”

    Hank tells me he’s used this close/break-up conversation a couple of dozen times, now, and it works about 60% of the time. The other 40 weren’t that into him, or just not attracted, or were prehistoric hosebeasts once you met them in person. In a small number of cases, he’s even gotten the girl to agree to sex in advance of a third date. And one time he had the girl show up on his doorstep and demand that he do her, just to keep her from feeling rejected.

    Four dates? I haven’t dated in 20 years, but if I had to wait until Date 4 I would have counted it as a sucker move, even in my Blue Pill days. When you’re a quality dude you can write your own rules . . . and the Date 2 rule is a pretty dandy one.


    • I would use this on the extremely-hot-but-secretly-low-self-esteem girls. ie – the 9-9.5s at clubs who turn everyone’s head and know they’re hot but are still concerned with what people think of them (a legit 10 with high self esteem doesn’t care if people like her or not because she’s internally validated, whereas the low self esteem girl, while she may look just as hot, is externally validated and will react and try to gain approval back when someone fucks with her value, aka the “I need everyone to like me!!” syndrome).

      I wouldn’t carry it as far as he does though, just cause expressly making them state that they’re going to have sex triggers ASD a lot more often and is probably a big part of the flakes he gets. He could probably increase his conversion % if he ran the same game but cut it off earlier and transitioned into a normal “okay let’s go on one more date” vibe. Basically once he’s planted the VERY clear seed in her mind (which he does great in your description, he’s totally non-needy about it and not mad/frustrated with her or anything, so that’s really solid and props to him) of “if you don’t put out, I’m walking” there’s no need to keep going with it. She’ll show up to the date ready to fuck. The trade-off would be like “1 naked-on-your-doorstep girl for every 5 flakes” for “5 girls-that-fuck-you-on-the-next-date with slightly more effort than opening your front door and 1 flake”.

      Which one is more appealing depends on your preference, lifestyle, free time, and apathy lol

      Of course he might normally tone it down and could’ve just been showing off and metaphorically running it into the ground because you were in the room lol


    • on September 12, 2012 at 11:17 am Concerned Mother

      But nowhere in your imagined convo do you make it clear Hank tried to get into her pants. To the contrary. She calls after date 2 and is shocked to learn that Hank expected her to make the first move toward the bedroom.

      I’ve waited as long as date 4 for sex if it’s clear we’re moving in that direction. where we’ve done everything but p-in-v boning.

      Yeah, you claim Hank goes after what he wants. Then stop imagining convos where that make Hank look like the world’s biggest dildo.


  15. on September 11, 2012 at 12:45 pm 3rd Millenium Men

    I can attest your last paragraph works wonders!!!


  16. Denying women your essence is a fail-safe initial strategy… nothing makes the hamster spin more frenetically.

    That said, the little rodent can only run so fast for so long… so don’t push it too far… beyond another week or so.

    But pick up on subtle clues (body language, facial expressions, etc.)… if your “not yet” doesn’t get her hamster spinning, but instead seems to elicit a barely-perceptible sign of relief, then cut and run immediately… it means her thang is broken, or at the very least, you won’t be the one to fix it.


  17. “A curious trick you can try on women who seem like the types to follow a “wait to mate” strategy is to preempt their objections by insisting on waiting yourself.”

    We call this “stealing her frame”:

    It works like a motherfucker.

    I can’t remember the last time I didn’t have sex on the first or second meet-up. I know I used to take around 3-4 dates for it with some girls, but my whole vibe/game these days is oozing “short term fling, not a long term provider guy” so there’s really no confusion on her part. She doesn’t need time to figure out which one I am, she knows right away that we’re going to be having sex ASAP if she hangs out with me…whereas when I first got into game, I was a lot more under the radar with my intent. But that just got me a lot more nights of spending money and getting blue balls lol, that’s why I focused on getting faster lays.

    Logically you’d think this would screen out the girls who are looking for LTRs, like they’d go “oh he’s a player” and avoid me. But even the girls looking for an LTR need sex now and then. That’s why they keep in touch with their ex-BFs or occasionally drunkenly allow an orbiter a shot. Of course these scenarios “don’t count” so they’ll never acknowledge them.

    So what I do now is capitalize on this knowledge and my membership to the Secret Society ( ) and I’ll flat out tell girls that I’m not the boyfriend type, I’m the guy they can fool around with who won’t bring them drama or get clingy while they look for real boyfriend material.

    It never fails to make me chuckle when a girl I’ve just pounded is cuddled up to me and telling me about some guy she likes and is going on dates with but not having sex with him yet because she’s making him wait (similar to this 4-date rule). Hell, I even give them advice on how to get the guy lol

    Anyway, remember when you drop your date off on date 3 with no sex and it’s like 10pm, she’s texting me to come over and bang her as soon as your car pulls away.


    • Yareally, thanks for all your contributions. Outside this blog, what are the top 3 or 5 resources you recommend for learning practical infield tactics? I assume tyler durdens archive on bristollair is one? Anything else?

      And again man, I really appreciate the value you offer in all your post.


      • Checkout TD’s vid collection on youtube. Use “RSD Nation” as a search criteria.

        It should help you get in the right mindset.


      • Ya, RSD’s video articles are great, specifically Tyler’s. Watch his whole archive of videos for a bunch of great stuff. His work is pretty much head of the pack in terms of progressing pickup as an art-form.

        Same time though, I got into the community in the old-school heavy tactics days and I think having a grounding in the old-school stuff underneath all the new “be shapeless like water” stuff helps a lot. Mystery Method was solid gold, but it’s a looooong read/watch. If you can handle that, great, but if not then I’d recommend LoveSystem’s “Magic Bullets” which is like a really condensed “only the important stuff” version of MM.

        Paul Janka’s “How to get laid in New York” is a good read (free PDF file) just to get a different perspective (he’s a natural and he does day-game in a really busy fast-paced city, he has some interesting takes on how he games).

        If you Google you can find “The Tyler Digest”, but I’d actually recommend this one instead or as well:

        It’s got a bunch of old-school writing from the top guys.

        That’s enough to get you laid like crazy if you go out and practice and apply it lol The only messageboards I can recommend are sedfast (fasterseduction) and LoveSystems’ board. The RSD boards are too full of retarded kids who are getting thrown out of bars, and other boards are too full of pussy “don juans” who don’t get laid.

        Good luck. 🙂


      • As always YaReally, thank you


      • No prob, happy to help!


    • But even the girls in an LTR need sex now and then

      fixed that.


    • Ouch. You just reminded me of how cheating women administered a shocking revelation to me when I was still a teenager: women are the deadlier half of the species when it comes to love and sex. I still remember the thrill gals got from cheating with me on their boyfriends. Realizing that all women had this in them either woke me up or ruined me for life, depending on your viewpoint. Better then than 20 years later, I suppose.


  18. One thing about bitches in heat is that they really aren’t that used to it.

    For all the jokes about men being led around by their dicks, men at least have the experience of being turned on a lot more and for a lot longer than women. And, because of that, how to socially deal with that.

    Consequently, when a man is turned on —say, at a strip club— he doesn’t charge the stage and throw a stripper down and fuck her right there, even if he wants to. Fear of the bouncers, arrest, rape charges, etc. are there, but so is the social approbation and, generally, his experiences as a younger man knowing how his sexuality acts and not succumbing to it. This, too, shall pass.

    Women, on the other hand, experience lust and turned-on-ness more rarely, and its more fleeting for them. After all, the sexual reproduction is accomplished when men ejaculate, not when females orgasm, so nature made men hornier. This is also why women complain of a mood (for sex) “being broken” by a smell, a phrase, or a sight, while men do not have that happen—because men are built to push through and get the job done.

    But because women get less horny, when they do get turned on, and especially turned on well, they have much less control. A smooth player who hits all the right buttons on a girl will have her in a puppy-like state because she doesn’t know how to handle it. Its at the root of when women say “it just happened”—she was so overwhelmed by unfamiliar instinct that she went on autopilot (almost literally), as she had no experience fighting it.

    Hornier women—i.e. more masculine women—-are more in tuned with the male mindset because 1) they’re led around by their vaginas more; and 2) they have experience taming their vagina cravings. They don’t act girlish because girlishness is for girls who don’t know what waking up horny every day feels like.

    All this is to say that women who are able to deny sex based on some “rules” mentality are thinking instead of feeling, which means they aren’t feeling horny enough to jump on you, which means they aren’t very turned on by you in the first place.


    • “he doesn’t charge the stage and throw a stripper down and fuck her right there”

      No wonder I keep getting thrown out.

      Seriously tho, your whole comment is solid gold. Everyone should read it.

      The last paragraph transitions into why PUAs say “change her mood, not her mind”. The beta rich 6-pack guy is trying to logically convince her to sleep with him with a pros/cons list. The alpha bad-boy who isn’t spending a dime on her runs her through a bunch of emotions that get her horny and she does half the work from there.


      • Yeah, I remember some weightlifter writing that female weightlifters who took testosterone-like substances often commented to the guys how much their respect grew for them. Because, the girls, said, it was a wonder the guys didn’t just stop everything and masturbate all goddamn day.


      • lol ya I heard that too. It’s why part of my screening with girls is for girls who LIKE to fuck. The frigid ones who are like “can’t we just hang out? Is sex really THAT important to you?”, I’ll tell them flat out “Yes, it is.” because I know extrapolating that attitude down the road into a long term relationship means ending up one of those guys who “jokes” about how his wife only puts out once a year lol


      • “Once a year? What the [email protected] are you smiling about then?”

        “‘Cause tonight’s the night, dude!”


      • on September 11, 2012 at 3:30 pm gunslingergregi



      • Fembots, especially the radical ones don’t give a shit. They want us all dead.


      • True. But the truth is, women are just too stupid as a species to ever do it correctly.

        Reminds me of when black guys talk about “the revolution” and how they “gonna make whitey pay.” These assholes can’t run a bodega, but all of sudden are going to take over the country and enslave everyone not darker than a paper bag.

        They’d never get beyond what they do now—-rioting and killing each other.


      • Woman are the same species as men. Stop dehumanizing them.




      • Woman are the same species as men. Stop dehumanizing them.

        we don’t normally do this kind of thing. sometimes it just happens.


      • @wingwoman: You are not the same species, you are below men. Get used to hearing it, honey. Truth hurts.


      • I’m pretty sure you are at least 40 IQ points below me so let me translate this to insipid for you.
        Adapt or die. Change is the only constant.

        [heartiste: morbidly obese women have never been attractive.]

        The whole game premise is going to shoot itself in the foot if one accepts it has a foot in the first place.

        [not clever.]

        The more it expands the more chicks will find out.

        {“the more pert tits and firm asses and pretty faces there are, the more men will stop liking that in women.”]

        Supposedly it won’t matter because this works as demonstrated by random men who want you to buy things backed up by sock puppet comments and total loser who learned to get phone numbers !!!!!

        [you write like a loser game denialist.]

        You are obviously one of those lazy specimens that’s going to die.

        [we’re all going to die, lazy and active.]

        If being famous is so alpha why are most game blogs anon?


        Don’t need the groupies or don’t want people calling you out for being full of shit?

        [don’t want to be stalked by psychos. really, american girldoll, think this through before you comment again.]


    • I don’t understand. Am I the only girl who discovered how to use the water pressure on the shower, lotion and a pillow in middle school?


  19. Tom Leykis: 3 date rule is because pretty much all women have had a one night stand. Why should you wait when that guy gets in no problem? Why should you play second fiddle to that guy?


    • Win.


    • Because for the most part, when you fuck a girl first night, she doesn’t stick around long term. The goal is to be banging her off and on for 6-10 months. Not fuck her on a drunken friday night.


    • Why should we fuck you after you’ve fucked nasty chicks/hookers/Idon’tevenwanttoknows? It cuts both ways.


      • It doesn’t cut both ways. Our “when” never changes. Every single woman on the doable list gets the same wait period.


      • I don’t care how long it took to fuck her, just how fucking gross she was. I’ll admit there’s sometimes a correlation.Woman value fidelity if you go around fucking every nasty bitch it makes you a male slut with zero standards. If one has no standards one may should not have high expectations of others and be all but hurt when people don’t meet them. I.E. double standards. Men reap what they sow. You guys want to fuck every chick in sight you find attractive but have chicks not fuck anyone but you. Have your cake, eat it, and shut up. Don’t complain that there’s crumbs on the plate.


      • sooooooo……he never gave you a callback, huh?


      • Who evilalpha? He wouldn’t even get it to begin with.:)
        Who cut your balls out and spoon fed them to you that you hang out here chatting to me in a comments section?


      • i’m flattered you’re thinking of my balls, but let’s just take it slow, okay? i have standards.


      • 1. But your vagina cares how long it took to fuck her, because that’s part of the alpha/beta designation.
        2. Men value fidelity more than women, because the downside is bigger for men.
        3. There’s no such thing as a male slut.
        4. Around here the standard for men is different than those for women. This is not a feminist site. We don’t believe in androgyny.
        5. Cake is gay.


      • Since I know you love interacting with me I’ll continue with this one. I’ve got to go to eat so it’s been fun but toodles til I come back.
        1.No because it wasn’t my time. I wasn’t involved and I don’t know. Ditto for most chicks.Alpha/beta is fluid spectrum. I don’t care what a stud you were or weren’t in high school or last weekend.
        2. No it’s really not considering the std rate and child support is retroactive (matters if one married but in general too). If dudes got kids he’s less able to commit to ones own (which isn’t always the criteria) or a relationship in general. Even if one is causal time is another issue. If he has stds well…gross unless both have it than people in glass houses…..
        3.Yeah, you better wish guy.
        4. What are your standards for citizenry of a society or person in general? I am not my genitals and neither are men so there must be some overlap criteria. It doesn’t matter since were not being personal and everyone makes there own values and standards at the end of the day.
        5. Cake is neither happy nor homosexual nor male but ok if you insist.


      • P.S. If you mean how long you last instead of long it took you to get it because then I’d say yes to woman caring about that for incompatibility reasons.


      • There’s crumbs on the plate.

        WTF ?


  20. Per my above comment, this is also part of why girls abnormally fear rape. When a woman gets horny, she “can’t control herself” and “things happen;” naturally, they impugn the same feelings to men.


    • I also agree with this. The same as how an alcoholic who always gets out of control and is now trying to stay out of trouble would worry about being around people who drink.


  21. This post is well-timed, could use advice. Went on first date with sunday school teacher who was hella aggressive. I delayed on sex because she seemed like solid relationship material.

    After second date, we couldn’t help ourselves despite agreeing it’d be better to wait and had very rough sex after a fancy night on the town. She, a 25yo, told me it was her first time since college. Probably true; she’s not on birth control and freaked out when I came inside instead of on her. It sucks, I wasn’t even trying for sex. I was trying my best to avoid sex, but she was making hella moves and whispering “we can’t” or “I should really go home, but this feels so good” and it was impossible not to. I really wanted to hold off, but alas I have a penis.

    Sleepless from a girl the other night, I was off my game; was an uncaring asshole after the sex. Questioning me on friday night she found out a girl was over the night before. I tried opening up to her emotional questions to make up for impending ASD, but then she said “I see, you get emo after sex.” Possibly the worst double whammy, I went from overly uncaring asshole to needy 21yo. Despite my crap game, we still had more sex and she moved in to kiss me goodbye when I walked her to the taxi. After the kiss, she thanked me for the great sex (my gut told me it was a bad thing to hear these words from a girl like this).

    Two days later I sent a sweet “saw blah blah and it reminded me of you” text to try and shift the mood and back off from aggressiveness. No response. Normally get something back within 5 minutes. To make matters worse I buttdialed her a bit later.

    Do I resolve myself to the fact that I butchered this to no chance in hell? On second date she asked me about 8 different ideas for a third date: asked me to go to church with her, for a surf lesson, etc. I like to get more back n forth going before I ask out for a date, but not sure if I have any options with this girl other than to just move on. Which sucks because the oneitis is settling in and I actually believe it’s justified. I went from having her swooning for me to what I’m guessing is some of the worst asd imaginable.


    • I was going to go through this point by point but man, you fucked up EVERYWHERE on this one. You will never see or hear from her again, and rightly so. You missed her signals that she wanted you to take charge, and you acted like the woman while she did all the gaming on you, and you are completely not the type of guy she’s pretty clearly looking for.

      I’m not trying to be a dick, but you just made like every mistake possible to make with this one. Best to quit thinking about her, delete her number and move on. You will never ever get her now, especially not for a relationship. Getting one-itis for her will just hold you back right now.


      • Thanks dude. Oneitis is gone; all it took was number-closing a hotter girl this morning. I appreciate the harshness. It’d be great to get some insight as to why these were such heinous mistakes. My goal is to fail fast, learn fast.

        If there’s no shot, then maybe I could send “I thought about taking you out again, but it’s probably not something that’d work out. Good luck” just to get the hamsters furious.


      • “If there’s no shot, then maybe I could send “I thought about taking you out again, but it’s probably not something that’d work out. Good luck” ”

        God no, that’s a butt-hurt reaction and she knows it. Her hamster will go “ugh what a loser, why did I bother fucking him??”

        Glad you’ve moved on, it would’ve been brutal to see you get stuck on winning this chick back when there’s no chance.

        The jist of what you did wrong comes down to you and her exchanging roles. Read through your report again, EVERYTHING is “she wanted this and I didn’t want it but I caved and did what she wanted” and “it just HAPPENED, it was IMPOSSIBLE to resist, somehow we ended up doing such and such”.

        There’s acting and reacting. You’re the alpha male, you’re supposed to be the one acting and she’s supposed to be the one reacting to you. Whether it’s you approaching or teasing her and her reacting to that, or whether it’s you saying “No, I don’t fuck on the first date.” and her reacting to that. The point is that what you say, goes, and you should be leading not just her but leading yourself.

        You come off as completely spineless and shirking all responsibility. You blame it being “impossible” to resist and “we ended up hooking up” etc., like you had no part in any of that and it was just the universe pushing you around.

        Basically you’re like a pinball bouncing off your environment and the universe around you, letting everything else determine where you go and what you do.

        With a normal random girl, you might get away with that (though even she’ll get bored of it when she realizes you don’t have any will-power or leadership going on and she can push you around and dictate the relationship), but this girl specifically is into alpha leader type men. That’s why she likes the rough sex, that’s why she was hella aggressive in general, that’s why she made fun of you being emo after sex, etc. She wants the complete opposite personality type from who you are right now.

        Your gut was right, she was saying “Thanks for the great sex…because I will never ever ever hook up with you again. Goodbye forever.” I could tell just from reading your recap of the events that she wasn’t going to text you back after that lol

        You keep projecting onto her that she has “the worst ASD possible” when in reality YOU’RE the one with the ASD. 🙂 You’re the one acting like a woman through this whole thing: wanting to make her wait, falling for classic PUA LMR-busting tactics (her saying “we shouldn’t be doing this…” as she keeps doing it), blaming “it just happened” for your actions, wanting to talk about feelings with her, etc.

        Not a big deal, you can work on this stuff in the future. Just work on making an effort to make decisions and stick to them. If you don’t want to have sex, don’t have sex. If you want to go on a date, go on a date. Don’t let the woman dictate the rhythm of the interaction, ’cause she WILL (especially the aggressive types like the girl from your report) but she won’t WANT to and will lose attraction for you.

        A classic way of describing the mentality is that the man is the oak tree, strong and rooted and solid to it’s core, and the woman is the twitchy little squirrel running around the oak tree. In your interaction with this woman, even though ya, you got laid, you were the squirrel and she was the oak tree.

        Start with making little decisions and make them adamantly. Like say “We’re going here and doing this” instead of “What do you want to do on our date?” Get used to leading and being decisive and sticking to decisions. You’ll probably find other girls are easier to resist having sex with because they won’t push for it as aggressively as this one did…you just happened to step on a land-mine of a girl (aggressive alpha type chick) which was totally not what would gel well with your current mentalities…that’s why I say you guys are completely not right for eachother.

        P.S. Use a condom, jeezus lol If you got her pregnant it wouldn’t keep her around, she would still be unattracted to you and end up ditching you for some other guy and then you’re paying child support for 18 years for a kid she won’t even let you see.


      • Hm. I’m normally decisive, dominant, and escalate fast. I’ll order the girl’s drinks without asking her what she wants. But I’ve struggled at dealing with ASD after first date hookups. One of my buddies suggested that I try making it my goal to not have sex or makeout on first dates, since my game sucks post-fuckapalooza. Sunday school teacher is the first girl I tried this mindset with.

        It wasn’t my idea to wait, she brought it up and it happened to jive with the advice I was trying out. Sunday school teacher sent a text out of the blue before the date saying that she had had trouble with guys expecting more sexually from her after a few dates than she was ready for and that she just wanted “to be on the same page.” I replied with a reframe and sent “Whoah whoah. I do expect more — I expect a great date. meet ya at — at –“. During the date, she was overly apologetic about the text and said she thought I wasn’t going to show up, ended up showing me texts from her friends telling her that I’d think she’s a “nutcase”.

        At my place we made out in my living room and then I carried her to the bedroom. I had decided I want to make a go for sex, but when I put my dick in she said “I can’t” and then “stop”. She expressed that she really wanted to, but wants to hold off till marriage for the right guy and that she wants to wait as long as possible for me. I told her if she wasn’t comfortable having sex, then we shouldn’t and that it’s totally cool. I turned away from her to go to sleep and she started cuddling and whispering about wanting to fuck so badly. So I made another go and we spent the rest of the night banging. She looked like she had gotten mauled by a bear when all was said and done.

        I still think she got ASD because she started saying “I really shouldn’t have” after the first round of sex, or maybe that was just a shit test? It’s from there that I went way asshole and then went “emo”. I thought I cannot have been that bad since we still fucked after that.

        The lesson is being too much of an asshole is recoverable, being too much of a pussy is not. But you’re right. If I have a thing for chaste girls, then I ought to make the decision to not have sex on the first few dates and stand by it. That’s going to be really fucking difficult. What was particularly hot about this girl was that she really enjoyed rough sex but also wanted to be the good subservient wife type (flat out said on first date that she wants to drop her career when she meets the right guy and be a great housewife).


      • I would take close note of the advice YR gave you SantaCruz.

        Same thing happened to me earlier this year after I fucked an alpha chick that YR describes. Great rough sex, she constantly was testing me, would get turned on when I took charge.

        She was my first one like that though and you can guess how it turned out. I got ljbf’ed (verbatim, she said lfjb in the last text).

        I was spinning plates but still fixated on her due to the great sex.
        I was the pinball in her universe but couldn’t see it at the time.
        I used many of the concepts described here at the Chateau to game this girl (venue switch on day of first date ie “change of plans”, pushing her off me when she was trying to cuddle the first night and saying i like to let things develop, etc)
        I look back at it and realize I was the reactive one.

        All this got me the lay SantaCruz but I did not get to keep/keep banging the girl other than a couple times. I’m not going to explain why because much of what YR said covers both your and my experience with similar girls.

        But, let me leave you with this. It seems you’re more into the sex than you are into the girl. You need to take this as a learning lesson and realize that that is part of improving yourself and hell no, way have you hit your peak.

        Abundance my friend, abundance. Forget the girl and push to game others even if you want to call it quits and try to rope her back in.

        Don’t beat yourself up because there will be more. Every rejection is a brick in the palace where you will house your harem.



      • Thanks for the words of encouragement I.G. I’m going to try to roll with that mindset.

        Getting laid is not a problem, so I am not hung up over the sex (though it was definitely wayyyy better than sex with a frigid girl). There was great potential to like her for more than just the sex. YR’s advice is greatly appreciated but I’m hesitant to take his frame too much as I am more open to a relationship.

        Going to disagree that the girl was an alpha/high-T. I can see how that’s the impression from the context given. But I left out a great deal. It does not make sense to write about what I did great or what was great about her, as I just want to learn from my worst mistakes.


      • Let’s break this down thoroughly, PUA Field Report style, ’cause you sound like you’re legit looking to fix this and I have a lot of free time tonight since Jack’s mom is busy lol:

        First thing to keep in mind is that you can turn an open relationship into a monogamous one easily. You just see her more than once a week and “fall” for her and then give up seeing other girls. So don’t let our different goals taint your view of what I’m saying because the fork in the road toward open/monogamous relationships comes after the part where you’re running into problem. Once you have sex with a girl, turning her into a GF is EASY, regardless of what frame you set to get the lay.

        “I’m normally decisive, dominant, and escalate fast.”

        Honestly, with this girl, that would’ve gotten you farther. There’s a LOT going on with this particular girl, like I say you ran into a land-mine. It’s like saying “I’m no longer going to gamble or drink or have sex.” and then the next day you win a free trip to Vegas lol The universe just kind of fucked with you on this one.

        There are a few key elements/concepts going on here:

        1) You listened to her words instead of her actions/history (a girl’s actions/history are her blueprint…a girl who’s dated a bunch of jerks and then tells everyone she’s only dating nice guys now, is still attracted to jerks regardless of what she says…like the fat chick who says she’s going to join the gym, odds are she’s not going to because her actions/history show that she leans toward gluttony/laziness)

        2) You were reacting to her instead of her reacting to you (note: you can still be non-needy, push or not push for the lay, and get the lay, while reacting to her…but it fucks you over in the long run…essentially you came from a frame of “what kind of guy will she like me to be, what kind of obstacles should I run away from to hopefully get the lay?” based on the things she said VS “I’m going to do what I want, now what kind of silly obstacles do I need to get past or ignore to get the lay?”)

        3) You weren’t acting through your own intent (this is why you couldn’t stick to any of your goals (ie – to not have sex), you didn’t WANT to)

        So let’s go through our new info:

        “But I’ve struggled at dealing with ASD after first date hookups. One of my buddies suggested that I try making it my goal to not have sex or makeout on first dates, since my game sucks post-fuckapalooza.”

        Your buddy had good intentions, but he’s actually giving you advice that would help avoid LMR/ASD PRE-lay…and your problem is happening POST-lay so it’s like telling you how to keep your car from breaking down before you get to your destination instead of telling you how to fix it once it’s broken. You’re getting to your destination with no problem, your car is just breaking down the next time you try to drive there.

        What you need to focus on is avoiding Buyer’s Remorse and post-lay ASD. Keep in mind that you can do the absolute raunchiest, most disgusting, nasty, freaky, disturbing shit to a girl sexually (and otherwise)…as long as afterward she feels good about what you two did. On the flip side, you can have the most romantic, pleasant, lovey-dovey, sensual, candlelit sex with a girl…but if you fuck up the post-lay stuff and trigger her Buyer’s Remorse and/or ASD (and you can trigger this with literally ONE wrong word or action, or not even your own word/action but what she reads INTO your words/actions and decides what they mean), she’ll never want to see you again.

        “It wasn’t my idea to wait, she brought it up and it happened to jive with the advice I was trying out.”

        Right from the start, you’re falling into her frame even though it’s technically your frame too because you’re trying this new style out, but to her it looks like you’re falling into her frame. She’s setting the guidelines of the relationship and you’re going along with it.

        “Sunday school teacher sent a text out of the blue before the date saying that she had had trouble with guys expecting more sexually from her after a few dates than she was ready for”

        Her WORDS are telling you “don’t try to have sex with me quickly” but her ACTIONS are saying “I’m thinking about fucking you already, it’s a possibility in my mind that we’ll probably be having sex at some point, even though my ASD says it should ideally be later rather than sooner. If I didn’t WANT to have sex with you, I wouldn’t show up for the date at ALL, but I’m telling you that my ASD needs you to calm it down and make it okay for us to fuck early on, otherwise you’re going to have to wait…my ASD also doesn’t realize that if you wait, I’m going to lose attraction, it doesn’t think that far ahead”.

        How’s that for a mouthful? lol This is essentially a shit-test.

        “I replied with a reframe and sent “Whoah whoah. I do expect more — I expect a great date. meet ya at — at –”.”

        Beautifully handled. Well-done! Shit-test passed.

        “During the date, she was overly apologetic about the text and said she thought I wasn’t going to show up”

        Yep. Because you handled the shit-test so smoothly, you were totally not affected by it, so she started questioning herself and freaking out. Read into it deeper though and look at her actions again…now she’s essentially saying “omg…THIS could be the guy who can make my ASD chill out so we can fuck! I knew I liked him, but after how he passed that test so awesomely, THIS might be the guy who can make me feel good about fucking him quickly! Those other lame-asses I went on dates with who pushed too early had NO idea how to diffuse my ASD…omg I hope I didn’t scare this guy off!! 😦 :(”

        The reason game works DESPITE girls knowing a guy is gaming them, is because they can tell “THIS is a guy who’s going to make this interaction smooth, fun, and make me feel good memories about it, so ya, I’m gonna’ play along with it because I’m getting nothing but good emotions!” It’s like you offered them a free rollercoaster ride. Most guys who have no game or shitty game, it’s “fuck, this is going to just be such an awkward time…ugh. He’s boring and he can’t tell what I want at all, and oh great, now he’s trying to escalate to sex with me, ugh this is all just unpleasant and full of bad emotions…why can’t I meet a guy who knows what he’s doing??”

        So you’re rockin’ here. She sees you as high-value and she REALLY wants to fuck you, as long as you keep deflecting her ASD so smoothly. Little does she know, you’ve decided to actively not be that guy she wants this time lol 🙂

        “At my place we made out in my living room and then I carried her to the bedroom.”

        And she didn’t freak out or leave or refuse to go in your bedroom? Listen to her actions. She wants sex here…BUT, she’s warned you about her ASD.

        Okay it’s gonna’ get complicated here:

        “I had decided I want to make a go for sex, but when I put my dick in she said “I can’t””

        Standard LMR. The usual remedy for this is “two steps forward, one step back”. Whatever she stopped you at, you back off to the step before it (so if you were sticking it in her, one step back would be just having it out and pleasuring her…if she stopped you at, say, fingering her, one step back would be just rubbing around her crotch area…basically just go back to the last thing she was comfortable with), and hang out in that zone for like 10 minutes turning her on more and more, then try again.

        Rinse and repeat this over and over. Generally by the 2nd or 3rd attempt to escalate, she’ll be so turned on she won’t stop you. BUT, if she DOES stop you after, say, the 3rd attempt, you might need to do a full Freeze Out, which is to pull away entirely, put it back in your pants, flip the lights on, and go back to watching the movie or check your E-Mail or break out a chess board or whatever. Basically you shut-down the whole situation in a totally non-angry/bitter way (which can be hard when you’ve got blue-balls lol). If she doesn’t want to play along then she doesn’t get any of the fun emotions. This usually causes their subconscious thinks “omg I fucked it all up, now he doesn’t want me anymore, no no, I really DO want to do this…” and often they’ll re-initiate or be more open to re-initiation in like half an hour, but with certain girls it’ll make them think you’re a jerk and you’ll lose them entirely and they’ll probably hate you lol

        That’s why we don’t Freeze Out until we have no choice, it’s the hail-mary after you’ve tried everything else, because it’s so polarizing. You don’t do a Freeze Out on the first resistance. Also a Freeze Out with sloppy post-lay game WILL create Buyer’s Remorse because she slept with you out of “not wanting to feel awkward/bad” instead of “feeling good”. This is what that [email protected] guy who thinks he has to use 5 dates is running into, that’s why I told him he has shitty after-lay game.

        Google for some of Tyler Durden’s LMR-busting techniques, I link them in the Heartiste comments now and then.

        Anyway, I explained all this LMR-busting stuff not because I think you have trouble with LMR all the time but because this:

        “and then “stop”.”

        …happened because you probably didn’t do “one step back, two steps forward”, you either kept trying to go forward or stayed where you were and later tried to go forward, instead of going back a stage. And THIS:

        “I told her if she wasn’t comfortable having sex, then we shouldn’t and that it’s totally cool.”

        …is actually you unintentionally (I assume, since it was actually just a by-product of the new style you were trying out and not an intentional technique) running a Freeze Out on her lol And what’s the consistently predictible result of a Freeze Out, as I described above?:

        “I turned away from her to go to sleep and she started cuddling and whispering about wanting to fuck so badly.”


        Now to jump back for a sec:

        “She expressed that she really wanted to, but wants to hold off till marriage for the right guy and that she wants to wait as long as possible for me.”

        This is her saying “This is what my ASD is, I need you to diffuse THIS. I WANT you, I’m telling you flat out, but I need you to make my ASD 1) feel okay with me not waiting for marriage, 2) make you feel like the “right guy”, and 3) feel like I’ve waited as long as possible, that this moment IS “as long as possible”…if you can assuage those 3 fears, we can bang like rabbits and we’ll hook up again and again because I’ll feel awesome about this whole thing.”

        Your Freeze Out worked because she DOES want to bang you, and she WAS turned on, and that’s the point of a Freeze Out…BUT, as you’ve seen, there’s no second time. She already knew there would be no second time when you walked her to the cab, that’s why she essentially said “goodbye forever” (and your gut picked up on her sub-communication here, it just didn’t understand WHY your spidey-sense was tingling).

        Anyway, back to this part of the report:

        “she started cuddling and whispering about wanting to fuck so badly.”

        This is her sub-conscious telling you flat-out “fuck, I thought you were the one who was going to be able to diffuse my ASD and make me feel okay with fucking you but you CLEARLY aren’t getting the hint aghghh…so now I’ll have to tell you flat-out to fuck me because you backed off when I told you to and that’s so frustrating because you were supposed to be The One…where’s the guy who smoked my text shit-test about being on the same page earlier?? THAT’S the guy I thought I was with…sigh, now I know you’re not the guy who’s going to diffuse my ASD, but on top of it I’m so fucking horny right now and you won’t even do anything about it, so now I have to admit to you, and to myself, that I’m a slut who wants to bang on the first date, but I’m so turned on that I can’t resist right now so I’m going to make it REALLY clear to you to fuck me, and we’re going to fuck eachother’s brains out and it’s going to be rough because I kind of hate you right now because I’m pissed at you for not coming through for me, and we’re going to get it on all night long and maybe even in the morning…but god DAMN are you ever going to see some reprocussions from THIS.”

        lol You COULD still recover from all this, but now you’ve got a rabid dog to calm down and that’s going to take a lot more work than if you had kept the dog from getting to that state in the first place. And since you already know you have weak post-lay game, that rabid dog probably isn’t going to settle down for you.

        Anyway, we’re not done yet. Now you’ve gotten the lay. Congrats! That’s awesome. And it was a GOOD lay, even better!

        …but remember the stuff earlier about making her feel good about her decision? You’re already one foot in the coffin on that one because of how you got to the lay. That’s why you get this shit-test:

        “she started saying “I really shouldn’t have” after the first round of sex”

        If you handle this correctly, and it’ll take some tight-rope walking because you’re working from a deficit, you’re all good and you can turn this around. She’s giving you a chance to recover here. From the first report, you handled it by:

        “Sleepless from a girl the other night, I was off my game; was an uncaring asshole after the sex. Questioning me on friday night she found out a girl was over the night before.”

        lol You’re pretty much done here. But at least now you know that this was the point where you could’ve saved the whole mess and turned it around. This:

        “I tried opening up to her emotional questions to make up for impending ASD, but then she said “I see, you get emo after sex.””

        …is pretty much just playing catch-up, grasping at straws, that’s why she made fun of you. She’s already decided here that she’s done with you. This is partly her now convincing herself not to see you again. Like when you’re happy with a friend, all you think about are their good qualities, but if they piss you off, all you think about are their bad qualities. Natural human reaction by the ego to make you always feel like you’re right and making the right decisions.

        She fucked you after it, but at that point it’s because she’s already decided that this night is a write-off so she might as well get what she can out of it since you’re both there naked and the sex was good.

        “The lesson is being too much of an asshole is recoverable, being too much of a pussy is not.”

        lol that’s a good lesson in general. For this particular field report, I’d say the main thing to take from it is that you had 3 chances to turn this into a solid on-going fuckbuddy situation:

        1) Before the actual lay, by diffusing her ASD when she gave you instructions on what worries it needed you to diffuse specifically. This is the easiest stage to handle it. This is the dog noticing the kid on a bicycle going by.

        2) But since you didn’t do that, and in the Choose Your Own Adventure book of pickup you flipped to the page with the Freeze Out, you ended up going down a path that led to your second chance to turn it around, which was “I really shouldn’t have…” after the first round of sex, which is MUCH more difficult to come back from compared to just not ending up there in the first place, but it’s still do-able with tight game. This is the dog barking rabidly at the kid on the bicycle and chasing it, furious with rage.

        3) After the whole interaction, when you sent your two days later txt to her. You could theoretically still turn it around here, but you’re laying in the coffin up to your neck in dirt and the undertaker is still shovelling…it would take some phenomenal game to recover at this point. I don’t think you could do it (not an insult, it’s just like you need a certain amount of experience with that situation to know what to do…same way someone who works at a suicide hotline would be more familiar with how to talk someone off a ledge than someone else), but the important thing is to know that that recovery spot DOES exist, for the future. This is the dog mauling the severed head of the kid on the bicycle. lol

        So what’s the optimal move at each of these stages to turn it around?

        1) Remember the 3 things her ASD needs you to fix, and at this moment in time your pants are down and she’s soaking wet and you guys are in the bedroom, which is a different situation than if you had this conversation over drinks at the bar lol:

        a) feel okay with me not waiting for marriage

        b) make you feel like the “right guy”

        c) feel like I’ve waited as long as possible, that this moment IS “as long as possible”…

        I’d take care of these things with honesty, gay as that sounds. Her ASD is screening for you being a player, so if you pretend to be all “I love you, I think I could marry you” if you’re NOT that way, it’s going to set off flags and she’s going to shut down on you.

        So I’d go with something like “That’s cool, I can understand that (I’m agreeing instead of begging or trying to convince you logically) and it’s pretty rare these days to meet a girl with morals like that (ie – everyone else is fucking, I respect your boundaries but what you’re doing is fucking weird). Personally, (I’m not going to call your notion to wait for marriage stupid, but I AM now going to share a short story that makes you FEEL like that notion is stupid lol) I find that sexual compatibility is really important to a relationship. My ex-girlfriend (btw, I’m capable of commitment, see?) was a great girl (I never talk shit about my ex-GFs, so I won’t talk shit about you either), we loved eachother a lot, but we weren’t compatible in the bedroom. It really caused problems in our relationship, because we got along so well but there was always this underlying resentment toward her on my part (’cause obviously SHE was the one who was shitty in bed, not me lol) because our sex life wasn’t satisfying to me. It wasn’t her fault (I’m not a dick), she was just more shy and reserved (hint hint, I don’t like shy and reserved) and I was used to sex being more fun and adventurous and spontaneous. Over time the resentment grew and obviously she started to pick up on it, but if the sexual chemistry is there you can’t just turn it off, and I know it makes me sound bad and shallow (awww, sympathy card), but I ended up having to break it off with her. So personally (sincere shit coming up) I don’t think I could wait till marriage…I’d rather let you know that now and have you tell me that’s not okay with you and we can just be friends, instead of lying to you and telling you that I’d be fine with waiting for like 10 years lol 😉 (now pulling away from the seriousness and into making fun of her belief by exaggerating it)…especially when (kiss, with a grin), you’re right here (kiss), and you look so good tonight (longer kiss, with a grin), and I think we have some killer chemistry. (escalate from there)”

        That’s how I’d run it, anyway.

        “But you’re right. If I have a thing for chaste girls, then I ought to make the decision to not have sex on the first few dates and stand by it.”

        Yep. Either change how you view girls who put out quickly, or change how quickly you put out.

        “What was particularly hot about this girl was that she really enjoyed rough sex but also wanted to be the good subservient wife type (flat out said on first date that she wants to drop her career when she meets the right guy and be a great housewife).”

        You’ll never know, now. Don’t beat yourself up about it though, there are other girls out there, and you’ll be better equipped to handle them now that you lost this one. 🙂

        Good luck!


    • “Aggressive” and “relationship material”?
      You obviously have deeper problems.


  22. A woman gets turned off by a man who doesn’t go for it early and often, yes. But that’s not because he seems like ‘he doesn’t have options.’ It’s because he seems like a little bitch – he’s too pussy to express his sexuality, and boldly go for what he wants.

    [heartiste: the two explanations are correlated, but the latter is consciously apprehended while the former is subconsciously registered. pussiness is a proxy for lack of mate options. the pussyboy is afraid he’ll scare away or offend his one prospect.]


    • More like he’s not really interested and that gives one zero leverage if need be.Level of interest should be mutual even for a casual encounter. If you are both not feeling it why bother?


      • “Zero leverage”. Why would you want leverage over him? That’s right, to control him and make him serve your needs on command. Fuck you skank.


      • I have better things to do than control people because frankly I don’t give a damn but some people like to play like that. Some people need the drama and thinking it’s exciting. Preferably you can just trust each other and both people are looking out for the interests of both to some degree after a certain stage but lol that’s ideal which doesn’t happen always. People are naturally selfish so fuck yourself but also everyone needs to look out for their best interests so as to not be taken advantage of (man or woman). Such vitriol is unattractive irl by the way.


      • Because she’s a whore, but a fun whore who is easy to make an example out of for all the readers.


    • Or maybe he just doesn’t like the way she eats her salad.

      What the fuck is wrong with you? “Dating” is now how men would prefer to express their sexuality. Your rationale is dumb.


  23. Just be a member of the “Dark Triad” and the female hamster will do anything for you. How else can a convicted killer get fan-mail?


  24. on September 11, 2012 at 4:04 pm gunslingergregi

    set up the date and the fuck before the date in three hours dun dun dun


  25. Respectfully disagree that not going for it= lack of options. I see not going for it too early as a sign of self/impulse control possibly just good manners. IOI is trying to initiate physical contact but the trick is to know how much is too much. You practically have to be a horse whisper type and be gentle but assertive . I feel a lot of the mistakes of pushing to early are bad primary selection. Don’t fuck and chuck chicks who want a relationship. Just make sure she’s really just dtf and not confused as fuck or you going to cause yourself problems. There are plenty of chicks who want to hookup and leave it at that.


    • Man you are one entitled bitch.

      Guys are ALWAYS DTF which is why he’s talking to her in the first place…so it’s on the woman to be clear about her intentions, not on him.


      • As demonstrated by the comment immediately after mine: it’s a hard call between he’s pretending he’s interested and he just wants to fuck and he wants to fuck but has interest in making it a relationship. Most people aren’t direct enough to just be blunt because let’s face it’s seriously awkward and dude can still just lie anyway. All you all gotta do is same something like ask don’t go catching feelings for me or some other line to make it clear.

        Remembering your previous picking up drunk bar skanks ( by the way not every chick at the bar is a skank or there for a ons fellas that’s why we get annoyed at dudes approaching us for shit we don’t want, it’s tant amount to infomercials) comment I think I see were you problem is, chicks would be beyond the level of comprehension need to understand simple conversation


      • No all YOU need to do is say something like..”I like to take things slow”

        that and stay the fuck out of bars and mini skirts.


      • You think the bar wearing a skirt is the only way I get unwanted attention. lol
        At the end of the night you make the bed you fuck in and both parties are culpable but if dudes want less drama and bs they should take the 3 seconds to say something but as demonstrated by the graph post that would mean honesty and being honest would lead to less sex for some on occasion. I think the rate is marginal for the most part.


      • No honey, I don’t think a bar wearing a skirt is the only way you get “unwanted attention”. I’m sure you also get unwanted attention wearing workout attire while running errands.

        but if chicks want less drama and bs they should take the 3 seconds to say something but that would mean honesty and being honest would lead to less relationships for some on occasion. I think the rate is marginal for the most part.



  26. I have a question perhaps any of you gentlemen may be willing to answer. I ask: What is your advice to a woman seeking a relationship on when she should have sex with a man she is attracted to whom she finds suitable for an LTR?

    Some men will say it doesn’t matter when, and that the probability of a relationship forming rests wholly on the man’s interest level. Whereas some men advise that it’s more prudent to wait in order to send the message that one isn’t the town’s bicycle or a cuckold risk.

    Both make sense. But which one is it? What is the most practical route for a woman to go about in this situation?

    Women are aware that pre-sex is the most hand we will have in a relationship with a quality guy until he gets emotionally invested. It’s a little daunting at times to surrender that hand even when every inch of your body yearns for it.


    • There is no cut and dried answer to that question, and I don’t think you will get a useful answer here. The answer depends on too many variables, usually depending on age and other available options.

      But yes, generally, if you are seeing some guy who makes ‘every inch of your body yearn’ the “probability of a relationship forming” depends on this guy’s level of interest.


    • What’s the quickest you’ve slept with a man? That’s the answer on how soon to get intimate for a LTR. In other words, don’t be like your “sisters” and fuck a dude in a bathroom bar, then expect a courtship from some other dude. Shit don’t fly.


    • Tits or GTFO.


    • Waiting until marriage is generally a good strategy. But since you’re obviously a non-virgin, ie damaged goods, ie slut, there’s nothing you can do that’s gonna matter anyway.


    • To me, I don’t care when you fuck me. All I care about is that you stay as awesome as you were when I picked you up.

      If 6 months in you’re no longer the healthy sexy fun optimistic up-beat chick who dresses up to impress me that I originally picked up, and instead you’re now bitching about work all the time and complaining about your friends’ drama and eating shitty because now you have a man so you don’t have to try anymore and you’re putting on pounds because you don’t bother working out either and because you’re putting on pounds you get all self-conscious and don’t want to dress up sexy anymore or have sex with the lights on and you spend all day bitching about your weight, job, friends, etc. but take no actual steps to change or fix any of that…THAT’S what I care about.

      Avoid THAT, and I’ll fuckin’ marry you lol “Oh but when we find a man we want to finally be able to relax around him and be able to let him know about things that bother us about our day so he can make me feel better” No, fuck you, just be a pleasant person and handle your shit. I’d like to just lay on a couch 24/7 playing X-Box but you’d leave me if I did that and no one would blame you lol

      “Well no one can stay perfect forever!!” I agree, that’s why I don’t do monogamous commitment or marriage.

      I’ve found a lot of normal (non-player/game guys) have the same complaint. A girl is awesome when he first meets her and then down the road she goes into crazy town and he ends up miserable because she’s no longer the chick he originally fell for.

      /rant lol


      • There is no way you get laid bro. You have the “lol’s” going….the emoticon crap going. Your replies are freaking 18 paragraphs long. Comical. Turn off the video games and wake me up when your oprah pontificating ends.


      • ヽ(゜∇゜)ノ  Eeeeyyyy sexy laaaaaadyyyy

        ヘ( ̄ー ̄ヘ)  Op

        (ノ ̄ー ̄)ノ   Op

        (〜 ̄▽ ̄)〜 Op

        〜( ̄△ ̄〜) Op

        (☞゚∀゚)☞ Oppan Gangnam Style


  27. If nothing has happened by the end of Date #2 (assuming you were trying on both), then get the hell out.

    Whenever I was hit with the “I don’t shag before x dates” bullshit, my responses were twofold: a.) “Can you tell me how you arrived at the number x? It seems like it’s kinda arbitrary.” and b.) “And what should I be doing between now and x date?”
    – If she says, “Feel free to see other girls” then walk away and don’t ever contact her again; you’re an alternate.
    – If she says, “I really like you, but I don’t want to seem easy,” the response is, “I know you’re not easy. If I thought that, we would have been together already. So now what?”
    – If she says, “Can’t you be just a little more patient?” the response is: “Okay. You have my number. Call me when you’re ready for the next step in our relationship. Good night.” DO NOT EVER CALL HER FIRST at this point. If she calls, it means she wants you and you’re pre-approved for a shag. If she doesn’t call, it shouldn’t matter (you HAVE been tapping other chicks in the meantime, right?). [Comment: note the magic word “relationship”: it’s a guaranteed hamster-spinner.]


  28. Maybe it’s because I’m old and boring now and looking for more than a bang, but I plan something open ended and if the first date doesn’t turn into a 7 hour affair, she’s off the list. Tell the girl we are going to the museum then getting food. If I or she wants to bail after dinner and not take a walk or go get a drink, well, that’s another one for the history books. This has been the pattern with the past few girlfriends and it works out well.

    Like I said, old and boring, so I give a girl a good 15 hour trial before I decided if she is worthy of sleeping with me.


  29. Context is everything. All humans are affected by what they perceive to be social expecations. Females much more so than males.

    If you really are sitting there on date 4 wondering whether things with a particular girl are progressing fast enough on the physical front, then you probably are not connecting very well with the chick. Once you get physically close, whether on date 1, 2 or 3, you will typically know what is going on. If you haven’t attempted to close the physical space gap and you’re on date number 4, you need to understand this: I don’t care where or how you do it, but on this what is likely to be your last date, you MUST get your arms around this girl.


  30. So, I have a question to those of you who do plan on settling down with the right girl, building a life together and having kids:

    How many dates would you expect the mother of your children to hold out?
    I AM a sexual person and pleasing my man every which way is very important in my book, but 4 or 5 dates still sounds so rushed to me. Sex is important, but it’s an act of love and intimacy. Well, at least, to me it is. Maybe that’s why the bar scene always seemed so weird to me. Is the ‘friend zone” such a dreaded place if you actually like the girl? For someone who equates sex with real closeness, love, trust and personal investment, it’s necessary to get to know the guy on a level that’s beyond superficial, to make sure that he really does care. That’s not a shit test.

    I understand that many of you aren’t looking for anything that involved. But those of you who are looking for a girl who’d be important enough to have your children, wouldn’t you invest into the girl long enough to develop an intimate friendship before making sex mandatory? I’ve always thought of it in terms of months of hanging out, having fun and enjoying the romantic tension and growing intimacy rather than just a few dates. Would you advise your daughter to sleep with a guy in 5 dates, if she were looking for a man, not just sex? I don’t think I’d be able to.


    • Ideally, I’d want her to hold out for me. Those are the keepers. I’m no hypocrite either…I’m holding out too, but that doesn’t mean you treat each other like cold fish. I like these forums because they give me the insight of how this all works.

      And yes the “friend” zone is dreaded by guys…other than “we need to talk” line, the LBJF talk is the worst thing you want to hear from a woman you dig. I assume by friends you see this man as a non-sexual entity altogether.


      • No, a friend wouldn’t be a non-sexual entity. I merely think that it makes sense to hang out, have things in common, make some shared memories and learn a lot about each other before having sex. I need my lover to also be my friend because that’s real intimacy.


    • If I were to settle down… haven’t made up my mind yet.

      1. I would expect her to put out at the minimum number of dates that she has in the past. It’s funny how even low IQ porn stars understand the concept of “special” (Only my boyfriend gets anal) but modern women either play coy or just don’t get it.
      2. I would expect her to treat it like a friendship and not a courtship. In other words she would be doing half the work!
      3. If I have a daughter she will never be looking for just sex. A woman’s pussy is valued at the lowest price she’s ever “sold” it for.


      • But you haven’t answered my question! Suppose you WERE looking for that special girl… You said you’d expect her to put out at her past minimum, but what if she is either a virgin or she had only ever had sex with one or two long term boyfriends after dating getting to know them for a really long time before hand?
        What I’m asking is: would you just call it quits if this girl actually truly counted sex as “special”, as in ONLY for a very special man in her life, and this were so important to her that she needed months to feel that things were special enough between you two?

        You also didn’t answer my question about your potential daughter. So she is looking for a man to fill that important role in her life, would you REALLY advise her to only wait for 5 dates? (if she equated sex with something special, like love and intimacy, the 5 date rule would probably be very uncomfortable for her). Would you trust any man’s intentions regarding your daughter if he expected sex on the 3rd or 5th date?

        As you said, people (both women AND men) don’t seem to understand the concept of “special”. If a girl doesn’t take sharing her body lightly, if she considers sex to be an intimate expression of love, she won’t be able to sleep with you within 7-15 hours of quality time.


      • I did answer all of you questions, but since you need more details…

        I definitely would call it quits, because that long is just a shit test. Even virgin catholic girls back in HS didn’t take months to get to know you. I expect a grown woman to be efficient and put in the effort, rather than be passive and wait for grass to grow while declaring how she wants it to be “special”

        If you are making the husband of our children wait for the seasons to change in order get some it’s because you are trying to make him earn it, not because you think he’s special. If you truly think he is special then you’ll do things for him that you haven’t for other guys. That may be hand jobs, or blow jobs, or just an expedited intimacy track where you spend lots and lots of time together in order to get closer really fast.

        As for my hypothetical daughter…I would advise her to not fuck any dude until she met his family, friends, and co workers…several times.


      • Catholic school girls are notorious skanks in my experience. It’s a stereotype for a good reason.Taboo is exciting and all that jazz. YOU DON”T KNOW PEOPLE’S SEXUAL HISTORY! You only know what you’ve been told and can /can’t see. How do you overcome that in your value system?



        not by asking them directly, no. but there are patterns of behavior that correlate strongly with a girl’s sluttiness. [email protected] has done posts on this in the past.


      • Nope.
        “Modern” women are the notorious skanks especially when compared to Catholic girls because the latter is taught that whoring is bad not “empowering”. Never seen any catholic chicks at slut walk have you??

        And ALL girls are horrible liars when it comes to their sexual history… and your friends can’t keep a secret…plus there is google.


    • You better be really hot or be really good at blow jobs if you think you can hold me off for more than 4 dates and expect me to be back. you will not be the mother of my kids if you are not fucking me.


      • I can’t imaging giving a blow job to someone who weren’t THE man in my life. Oral sex is sex and it requires intimacy of a special kind. Holding someone off was never my intention, and I’m not following any rules. It’s just that sex=making love to me. And I am unable to toss the concept of “love” around lightly.
        But, hey, thanks for answering my question. Basically you’re saying that you would be comfortable settling down with a girl who slept with you within 4 dates. Are you okay with the fact that she probably slept with the other men who got to the 4th date? I’m not saying that she necessarily did… It’s just that she wouldn’t be able to move so fast with you if it weren’t an okay thing for her to do, in general.


      • Women have a very inconsistent sexuality. Shaggy’s 4 dates, may be one dudes 4 hour wait , may be another guys 4 week wait. You just need to be the dude that got to her in 4 hours that’s all. Even for a girl that is on a longer time table…some dude got it several weeks before another one did.


      • Okay. I get that some guy would probably be able to get us to that point in 3 months while it would take another guy 7 (though it doesn’t say anything bad about the second guy; if I went to bed with him, it means I was in love and committed, regardless of how long it took).

        But my question remains: Would you want to be the guy who got the girl to break her record and go to bed after the shortest waiting period yet, if it still meant that you had to hang out with her for 3 months before having sex? If so, would it actually meant that you are invested and thinking of making her the one? If you do decide to settle down, how long, do you think, a woman you would possibly consider worthy would wait before sleeping with you? You said you want her to match her shortest previous time with you- fair enough. But does it matter what her shortest time is when/if you’re picking a mother for your sons? Do you care if it’s 40 minutes or 4 years? What would you consider respectable, normal, and a good example for your future daughter to emulate?


      • I see what you did there gurl! Love it. Also remember most of these guys just want to pick up bar skanks and our posturing it in a defensive manner like every chick is a slut and unworthy of being respected as a person. I can’t wait for someone to try to answer this.

        [heartiste: ya know, in all my years of sexytiming the lovelies, only one girl i fucked would legitimately be described a bar skank. and even she was borderline. but you keep telling yourself comforting illusions.]


      • “What would you consider respectable, normal, and a good example for your future daughter to emulate?”

        A virgin who gets married before 20 to an man 10 years older. Everything else is a clear sign of decadence and thus generally doomed to failure.


      • Okay. I get that some guy would probably be able to get us to that point in 3 months while it would take another guy 7 (though it doesn’t say anything bad about the second guy; if I went to bed with him, it means I was in love and committed, regardless of how long it took).

        The sentiment above proves that you don’t think sex is special, but rather just want to get the best “deal” for your vagina that you can. The guy who you made wait 7 months is the “beta sucker” regardless of whether you admit it. Everyone can see that.

        I love to break records… and hymens, but I’ve never waited 3 months and never will. If a woman can’t screen a guy and fall in love in a month then she’s just playing games. Think about what missing a month of work or college would be like. A girl who needs 3 months to make a decisons is half assing and or using the guy.


      • 1) What makes you so special that a man should gladly sacrifice months of his young life for a CHANCE (not a guarantee) that sex & a relationship will result from the courtship you’re suggesting? That’s a question only you can answer.

        2) How inefficient are you take it takes you months to get to know somebody? More importantly, why do you care to know every detail of a man’s life before sleeping with him? I don’t really care what your favorite color is. Why do you, and why does it matter?

        3) You won’t truly know your love interest until you’ve had sex with him.


      • I got my wife on our second date. No hard feelings, no hangups, no regrets, no bullshit. It was just real and passionate.

        We both joke about it now — that society has these absurd ideas about “waiting”. The connection was so real that we couldn’t have waited if we’d wanted to.


      • It was just real and passionate between her and all those other guys too. LMAO.


      • You plunder only virgins, I presume. Nothing but fourteen-year-olds for the evilalpha.


      • Virgins are not for plundering dumbass.
        A worthy alpha plunders damaged goods and marries a virgin.
        But the alpha who loves to fight took the most important decision of his life like a beta.


      • @Jason

        Damn you are one feminist indoctrinated pussy. The average girl doesn’t get her cherry popped until past the age of consent. Whats all this shit about 14 year olds??

        You married a whore. It’s not my fault.


      • If either of you can find a virgin past the age of 18 who’s not 1) staunchly religious, 2) physically sick, or especially 3) boring as hell …

        …please send me photographic evidence of intact hymen. Thanks.

        The virgin/whore dichotomy is like an antique Victorian clock. It kept time once, sure …. but dusting it off and presenting it as the best method for timekeeping in today’s modern world is absurd.

        But don’t let me stop you. Go ahead and marry the ignorant, pudgy blonde deep in the Bible Belt, the one who gorges herself on the free doughnuts after Sunday service, the one who can’t hold a conversation on anything more substantive than Us Weekly.

        Those types of women are the vast majority of over-18 virgins today, and they’re all yours, buddy. I’ll be happy with my hottie.


      • Go ahead and marry the ignorant, pudgy blonde deep in the Bible Belt, the one who gorges herself on the free doughnuts after Sunday service, the one who can’t hold a conversation on anything more substantive than Us Weekly.

        Geez… an awful lot of hate in that post, alphie.

        Don’t you lecture anyone about facts or hate on this forum again, you hypocritical dastard.


      • I don’t hate the pudgy blonde. But she’s all yours.


      • @Jason

        It may make you feel better to lump your whore wife together with a chick that just got out of a relationship with her college boyfriend, but seriously a girl with 1 or 2 partners is more virgin than she is whore.

        How many dicks have been in your sloppy seconds of a wife?


      • It’s been my experience that a lot of guys who talk about how great virgins are and how much better they are and how they’re the ultimate prize, are usually guys who’ve never actually been with a virgin, or have only been with one or two max.


      • “It’s been my experience that a lot of guys who talk about how great virgins are and how much better they are and how they’re the ultimate prize, are usually guys who’ve never actually been with a virgin, or have only been with one or two max.”

        Cosigned to the nth degree.


      • How cute. A budding bromance between jason and yareally!

        It’s been my experience most guys who are slut apologists live in urban areas all their lives, vote for Obama and date way to many American liberals.

        I fuck liberals chicks. I don’t date them and I definitely wouldn’t marry one. Even Aunt “Susan” realizes that men are the relationship gatekeepers.

        Oh well more virgins for me…


      • Oral sex is sex

        not to the girls of today, it isn’t.


      • I was talking about the sort of a girl you could love, respect and trust to raise your children well, not an average girl. And if sex is an expression of love and commitment for such a woman, not just a bargaining chip and a physical spasm, then oral sex is indeed sex.


      • “I can’t imaging giving a blow job to someone who weren’t THE man in my life. Oral sex is sex and it requires intimacy of a special kind.”

        Comments/beliefs like this are what I screen for when I meet a girl so I don’t waste my time. Like good luck with that, I hope you find a nice dude who doesn’t care about his penis and has watched The Notebook a dozen times, you guys will have a blast and I wish you the best. But you and I would be completely incompatible sexually…even if I used super ultra ninja awesome game to get a BJ out of you, in the long-term your Disney views on sex would end up being a frustrating hassle to me and cause resentment and frustration in our relationship and ultimately destroy it.

        I actually have certain conversation topics and statements/questions I bring up early on when I meet a girl to test the waters of whether her and I have the same outlook on sex.

        You also have a madonna/whore complex lol which is funny because you’re a girl, but also not uncommon, oddly enough.


  31. Wanted to say thanks for this post, CH.
    One of your best , certainly in the top 10.


  32. on September 11, 2012 at 7:52 pm anonymous does not forgive

    This photo album is like a list of alphas (with the exception of the dude with Linda Hogan):


  33. Im really curious what the dudes on this forum have to say about hair length and how it affected their success.

    Off topic i know.

    Looks are certainly less important than game, but they are very important.

    Im on the fence. I have long hair but I’m wondering if women would take me more seriously with short hair….im comfortable with both. Ive web searched womens opinions….but without seeing the quality of the girl…its useless to me.

    Very curious what the men here have experienced.


    • Ask your boyfriends


    • Some girls will like you less (career women), some will like you more (college girls).

      It has to do with how confident they are in their own sexuality. Less self-confidence = more attraction to men with “feminine” long hair. And self-confidence usually comes with age. So start swoopin on the local quad, I guess.

      How do you tolerate that, though? I had long hair for one year, and it was an unbelievable pain in the ass. Snip snip, no more.


      • it can be, im just used to it. Cant help the nagging feeling that the hotter girls respond better to shorter hair.


    • A rule of thumb coming from someone who has had long hair for 9 years (i’m 21): If you have long hair and you’re not wearing any heavy metal paraphernalia, you will look like a massive bitch.

      I’m an aspie/aspic virgin. Accordingly my opinion may be useless to you.

      However, being the good looking aspic that I am, I have received plenty of attention from cute chicks in my time (only fucking it up with my aspic ways, iv’e even had a cutie approach me while wearing my ARGHOSLENT t shirt). Maybe I would get more opportunities if I had short hair, but I am drawn to the DARK path of UNHOLY METAL.

      So rocking the long hair can be serviceable provided you have the game to back it up and don’t look like a total queef.

      But be honest with yourself, in my town, the dudes with cute chicks around their arms are almost invariably well groomed, well dressed, and short hair-ed. It’s not so much that girls will be un-attracted to it, as you will find many will be turned on like Brazilian bitches in heat by it, but that other men will disrespect you for it, therefore undermine your social value. Don’t go flipping off cultural norms unless you have charisma and social proof.


    • Ps heartiste, we definitely need a post on game for hessians. also here’s a good song:


  34. Scrubs did a nice spoof on this (Elliot Reid is a female doctor, Carla is a nurse):

    Carla: So…you guys have…?

    Elliot: Not yet, but tonight’s our fourth date, so….

    Carla: Four dates?

    Elliot: Yeah, it’s one date longer than the sluts, one date shorter than
    the prudes. I am Four-Date Reid!

    Carla: Yeah, but, what about that surgeon the other—

    Elliot: [shouting] I’m Four-Date Reid!

    Paul comes up and puts his arm around Elliot.

    Paul: Hey, Cutie! You ready for our third date?

    Elliot: Fourth date! You’re forgetting about the time we ran into
    each other at the coffee machine. [to Carla] You shut up!


    • Scrubs tried hard to balance between hipster-leftie-ironic-supercilious-feminine humor and truthful-harsh-masculinity. It largely failed (see its audience numbers), given that its lead was a massive generic “pussy white guy” with his black “cooler, more masculine, smarter surgeon friend” , but it at least it gave us Dr. Cox—who kicked ass.

      [heartiste: agreed. cox kicked ass. in related news, andrew sullivan had a bathhouse dedicated in his name.]


      • Dr. Cox kicked ass until the last parts of the eight season when he started liking his ex-wife again.


      • Every hipster chick who watched that show that I was with *loved* Dr. Cox, even though he was the *antithesis* of what they said they wanted. In retrospect, I realize what was going on. At the time, however, I was confused—“why do girls like assholes?”

        The best was how he wasn’t above putting down the cool-black-surgeon-genius-best-friend. He avoided any racial attacks (unlike, say, the very-much-like him House ), but still managed to belittle him (“meat jockey” was one I particularly enjoyed) when they interacted. That made me give a lot of respect to the creators/writers—–it takes a lot of balls in Hollywood nowadays to dare portray a white, older man as cooler, wittier, smarter, and more alpha than the token-black-cool-genius character.

        Then they ruined it by portraying Cox as a miserable, self-loathing alcoholic who needed to get in touch with his feelings/re-love his skanky ex-wife.


    • lol’ed

      the sad part is that this isn’t even a spoof. I’ve witnessed conversations like this with women.


  35. The four date rule will protect against would-be PUAs, who don’t light her fire enough to get the bang, and leave after three dates. Accomplished PUAs will have her taking it before the third date.


  36. 9/11 2012 NEVAR 4GET


  37. on September 11, 2012 at 11:43 pm 3rd Millenium Men

    As your last paragraph says, I’ve found sitting back works wonders. It turns the usual dynamics upside down and every girl I’ve been with has been desperate to bang by date 3 at the latest.


  38. on September 12, 2012 at 12:02 am Days of Broken Arrows

    Back in my youth I bounced between Alpha and Beta behavior depending on the girl or my state of mind.

    Two decades on, when Facebook appeared, and interesting thing happened: ALL the girls I was a cad with sought me out to friend me and NONE of the ones I was a “gentleman” with even accepted my friend requests.

    To summarize, women loved the “jerk” me, but found the “nice” me repulsive. I would never have understood this years ago, but after years of this blog it makes perfect sense.


    • I can explain this for you. Schadenfreude. I had one ex boyfriend that things got bad with but I kept in touch for a while because are dynamic worked better as friends and nothing sexual. To know he was miserable while I was happy and dodged his misery loves company ass was always refreshing. Most of the time I only stay friends with the one who were friends to begin with and facebook friends isn’t real get together and have lunch every Thursday kind of friendship.


      • Wingwoman is having hamster hot flashes, unless by Schadenfreude she means hopping on some cad’s Freudian Schadenmissile.


      • Heh, heh… Schadenmissile. The anti-antimissile which counteracts the V(ag)-2 Schneider.


      • on September 12, 2012 at 6:54 pm Days of Broken Arrows

        This is not the proper use of the word “Schadenfreude,” which is a sort of karma. If anything, what I described is the reverse of Schadenfreude.


  39. Looking back on past dates, my notch count would be doubled if I was more aggressive in my esculation. I have heard somewhere before that esculating is attractive to women.


  40. My two cents:

    The 7-hour rule is totally dead on. It’s a great observation. (I just ran the numbers in my head for several of my pre-marital conquests, and they indeed average out to about seven or eight hours apiece before shagging commenced.)

    And while I’m usually more patient than most men, I realize now that I did subconsciously abide by the three-date rule. At risk of sounding hippy-dippy, it just feels … organic. Both of you should be feelin’ it by the third meeting. If not, it won’t EVER feel right, and you’ll pay dearly for the forced, awkward sex later, down the line, either in a vicious breakup (been there) or in divorce court (no way).


    • You’re a limp dick beta.


      • I would like to congratulate you, Anon, for consistently dropping the sophistication level of these comments. This is further proof?

        Care to say anything constructive? Or even true? Or is anonymous name-calling the only way you can relate to people?


    • While 3 dates is too slow for me, I actually do find it reasonable for the average guy. Same with the 7 hour rule. Going faster than that is possible, but it’s more just for the guys who are going hardcore into PUA stuff and want to push those limits for their own amusement/satisfaction.

      For the average guy who works a 9-5 and goes out now and then on weekends and is reading the Manosphere and picking up some general outlook tips on how to be more attractive to women, and meets a new women every few months organically through their social circle or work or by luck, 7 hours and 3 dates is just fine and are good guidelines to find girls who are into them and weed out the girls who aren’t without wasting much time. No sarcasm at all here.

      Like I say, the only issue I take is when people say it CAN’T be done or that any girl who sleeps with a guy too fast is a slut and won’t be able to be kept around etc. etc. Same way someone would tell Bruce Lee that fingertip pushups can’t be done…maybe YOU can’t do it, but people training more intently can.


  41. the key to a fast bang on a date is venue changing, aggressive kino and alcohol. even if you’re meeting up in the middle of the day, you should start out with drinks.

    if i don’t see her as LTR material, there’s no way i’d date her more than once without banging her. i also screen for sluttiness. if she ever had a ONS, she’d better be fucking me tonight, if she wants to see me again.

    if i encounter resistance with a slutty girl, i do the freeze out. that way atleast i’ll get a blowjob. the chick will hate you. but who cares?


    • Yup.
      And if you are waiting longer than the other guys to bang her then it simply means her vagina instinctively thinks less of you.


    • Far as alcohol goes, you don’t really need it, but having the excuse of “we were drunk, it just HAPPENED” is a good LMR/ASD buster. You definitely don’t need to get them actually drunk. Literally all it takes is for them to have a sip or two so they can say “we were drinking” when they tell the story lol

      I used to get mad that girls would waste my beer by just having a sip and leaving the rest while we fucked, so in the morning after she’d leave I would screw the caps back on and put them back in the fridge and then the next girl I’d have over I’d pretend to have just opened the bottle. With liquor I don’t even pour them any, I just mix it in the kitchen and give them a glass of Coke/Sprite/OJ/whatever and tell them it’s got vodka in it.

      I’m poor lol


  42. […] The 4-Date Misrule « Chateau Heartiste […]


  43. Extraversion is a result of facultative calibration such that as physical attractiveness and strength increases, people become more exrtaverted.

    The Origins of Extraversion: Joint Effects of Facultative Calibration and Genetic Polymorphism

    Study 1 Discussion from page 4:
    “The results of Study 1 are consistent with the existence of facultative psychological adaptations that calibrate levels of extraversion to levels of physical strength and physical attractiveness.”


    General Discussion from page 7:
    “This research tested the hypothesis that individual differences in extraversion are calibrated to variations in physical strength and physical attractiveness, since these characteristics likely predicted the reproductive payoffs of extraverted strategies across most of human history. In support of this,
    physical attractiveness (for both sexes) and physical strength (primarily among men) exhibited independent positive associations with extraversion, which together explained substantial portions of extraversion’s variance across two
    separate studies. Although theorists have long discussed the importance of testing the facultative calibration model (e.g., Buss, 1991, 2009; Tooby & Cosmides, 1990), the current study is the first to our knowledge that directly tests for facultative calibration of a broadband personality dimension such as extraversion.”


    Conclusion from page 10:
    “The present findings demonstrate that a surprisingly large fraction of the between-person variance in extraversion can be predicted from physical strength and physical attractiveness, which in turn provides novel evidence for the facultative calibration of a broadband personality trait. The fact that
    these effects were shown to be independent of variance explained by the AR gene CAG repeat polymorphism— despite the fact that CAG repeat length had effects on men’s strength and extraversion—bolsters the claim that these patterns of multitrait coordination reflect facultative calibration rather than pleiotropic gene effects. Taken together, these findings provide initial support for an integrative model of personality origins wherein facultative calibration and functional genetic polymorphisms operate in concert to determine individual differences. Although our results may be open to alternative explanations, the findings are nonetheless patterns that any complete theory of extraversion’s origins must explain, and the data thus carry importance for basic theoretical debates within personality psychology. As such, we hope that this research draws attention to the concept of facultative calibration in the study of personality origins.”


  44. It is sad indeed what the US have come to under the pathetic Democratic Party rule. Everyone expected strong condemnation and action against the foolish Libyans but what we see seems the country has become a second rung power. Obama is pathetic and limp-wrist leader.


    • Foolish? Not by my standards. They still got balls to defend what they believe in, which is a religion that makes them immune to western-style decadence, at least for now.
      If we still had the same vigor, we would have hunted down the perpetrators and nuked one or two cities. We’re just a dying civilization that will never recover, and obama’s ugly face is on the media every day to remind us of that fact.


      • Bush would have done that. Though many would not consider him Alfa leader but for me he will always be a great leader who never cared for anyone and did what he believed in. IDK but Obama is a disgrace for the US..I am speechless after reading the news of ghastly murder of a diplomat.


      • You are unbelievably ignorant.

        Crack open a political magazine and see what’s inside. You’ll find a world of wonder called “expert analysis of current events”.

        If you’re having any trouble, just sit crosslegged on your piece of carpet and say the letters on your lips until the teacher gets there.


      • another 9/11!


  45. “1. Does she behave as if she is struggling to contain an irresistible lust for you?
    2. Do you see this girl as long-term potential?
    If neither of those prerequisites are true, get the bang sooner rather than later, or cut your losses after the third date.”

    She’s not in love with him and he’s not in love with her – why on earth would you advise anyone in this situation to “get the bang sooner rather than later”???

    Otherwise, I like your post a lot, as usually. Luckily, I have met very few guys who “expected” sex from me – this is so repulsive and immature. I have nothing against sex on the first date (it’s probably the most romantic thing that can happen to anyone) but I think that it’s very unlikely to decide about this so soon and I will be happy if I have sex after a few months of getting to know each other. Waiting is very cute as well. It’s probably just as romantic as sex on the first date. I will probably wait until marriage.


    • You don’t have to wait until marriage, doll… I have it on solid authority that if a girl is truly pure of heart, such as yourself, the hymen will regenerate within a month.


      • It’s not that. I’m just not interested in sleeping around because I still hope I’ll find true love one day and being a virgin is a gift for my future husband.

        [heartiste: it’s not going to be much of a gift when you’re 40. the value of virginity is directly proportional to the youthfulness of the unplundered virgin vagina.]


      • It will be a gift for her 60 year old husband.


      • What? It’s not a gift? What if I get married at 30?

        [heartiste: it’s less of a gift than if you had given a man your virginity at 18.]


      • Yeah … I know. I don’t know why I’m asking this again … :'((( I hope he’ll still be happy with that 😦


      • Who will want your old punani at the age of thirty! Even if you do not do regular copulation your punani olds as usual.


    • Just be cool that your future husband is fucking everything he can (worst case scenario) and you’ll never get married.
      Although now you know puas attentions spans are too short to out last three dates for the most part so you should be relatively safe in waiting 3 or four dates if you get a hint of reserve about a guy. Make sure he knows your serious.


    • Nothing romantic about a first date fuck. But hey..sluts gonna slut… and then rationalize it.


      • Nothing romantic if you are not in love with each other, but if you are, I think it’s very very romantic. It’s even more romantic if you have sex on the first date and get pregnant. ❤


      • Women project onto a man and then call it love. That’s how I get some of my best quick lays.


      • Yes, some women do mistakes like this. But most have an intuition to recognize if someone is in love or not.

        Also, don’t you think it’s immoral to use someone for sex when she’s in love with you?


      • Also, don’t you think it’s immoral to use someone for sex when she’s in love with you?

        a woman who is in love with a man wants to be fucked by him, so when he does fuck her, he is giving her his intimacy, his manseed. she is not being ‘used’ in any way.

        better hurry [email protected], the shortbus is leaving.


  46. I will probably wait until marriage.

    you should probably start stocking up on cat food.


  47. whorefinder

    Reminds me of when black guys talk about “the revolution” and how they “gonna make whitey pay.” These assholes can’t run a bodega, but all of sudden are going to take over the country and enslave everyone not darker than a paper bag.

    Thats true. Most black people who attend college go through an “Afrocentric phase” where we have meetings to learn about “whitey” and all the evil things he does…

    (Im not joking)

    A large part of these meetings are to discuss strategies for “dealing with the white man…” But an even larger part is people trying to find a date. This results in a lot of “big talk” but very little action. (theres always one militant brother there saying “we need to kill all the white people. He always shuts up when I ask him, “so how many white people have you killed?”)

    But the real irony is none of us realized white people would destroy their own power without us doing anything.

    Look around?

    The baby boomer white people are eating their own children, shitting in their own bed and generally running everything they inherited into the ground.

    I keep thinking it must be some kind of reverse psychology whiteman trickery designed to fool negro onlookers…

    But no, they really don’t give a fuck.

    and by the time you crackers find out, your parents will be faking alzhiemers.

    Good luck Tyler.


  48. Evilalpha is a pathetic aspie virgin keyboard jockey who gets zero pussy. I know this because I have seen him hanging around the DLA.


  49. What’s wrong with using a girl as an emotional pillow? I like doing that. I don’t want women demanding sex *from me.*


  50. on September 13, 2012 at 6:35 pm gunslingergregi

    yea thwack all the whitey protection black people been getting worldwide about to be gone.


  51. on September 13, 2012 at 6:37 pm gunslingergregi

    both woman i married fucked on first date well date might be arbitrary on second but yea.
    seems to work out fine


  52. on September 13, 2012 at 6:38 pm gunslingergregi

    to higher chances of fucking on first date be sexy look good it will happen lolzzz


  53. […] Heartiste – Game And HBD: BFFs, The 4-Date Misrule, Ditch The Treadmill, Incentives Matter, Unequal Housework […]


  54. on September 16, 2012 at 10:04 pm youreallwankers

    The longer you wait the harder the game is


  55. I don’t wait more than one date. I screen heavily before then and if she doesn’t put out on date one I’ve got a half dozen more chicks waiting in the wings. I haven’t broken this rule in a couple of years now, except for 2 chicks I dumped after date one for not putting out and they emailed me back a couple of weeks later with an invitation to come over and nail them, which I did.

    Not to say this always works — I’ve missed lays with cute girls that would have happened on subsequent dates — but my confidence shoots sky-high when I can dump a chick after one date, knowing I’ve got plenty of others to choose from. Imagine the mental fortitude required to dump an 8 who’s into you but won’t put out on the first date.

    HB8: “I really like you but I’m not the kind of girl who sleeps with guys on the first date. But next time… (wink wink).

    YOU: “Sorry toots, it was now or never. Bye bye.”

    It’s a trip, and I firmly believe it makes you more attractive to women.

    There is no substitute for plenitude. None.