Indirect Vs Direct Vs Clever Openers: Which Is Best?

A reader sent along a link to a study which attempted to clarify which kinds of approach “openers” (pickup lines or greetings) worked best on women. The science, while far from conclusive (results were based on women’s self-reported preferences, so usual caveats apply), is finally having a say in this eternal debate between direct and indirect game advocates. Funny enough, the actual study was done in the ’80s. A lot of great, illuminating stuff about human nature gets forgotten, especially when the zeitgeist is so suffocatingly PC.

Women prefer innocuous opening lines vs direct or clever lines.

Men prefer women to be direct.

Via Scott Barry Kaufman:

In the ’80s, Chris Kleinke and colleagues analyzed the effectiveness of 100  pick-up lines across a number of different settings, including bars, supermarkets, restaurants, laundromats, and beaches. They found three main categories of openers: direct gambits, which are honest and get right to the point (e.g, “I’m sort of shy, but I’d like to get to know you“), innocuous gambits, which hide a person’s true intentions (“e.g., “What do you think of this band?“), and cute/flippant gambits, which involve humor, but often in a cheesy, canned way (e.g., ”Do you have any raisins? No? Well then, how about a date?“.)* 

Both men and women agreed that cute/flippant pick-up lines were the least attractive. Women, however, preferred innocuous lines and had a greater aversion to cute/flippant lines than men, while men had a greater preference for direct opening gambits than women. This basic pattern has been found over and over again in a variety of settings, including singles bars .

Eric Barker, the guy who runs that fantastic repository of helpful science, notes that mentally tired people are less receptive to clever pickup lines. If you’re churning through garbage hour and hitting on tired girls, keep it simple. A brief comment about something in your shared environment is all it will take.

So cute (aka douchebag) lines are the worst. No surprise there. Those kinds of lines are spit more for the entertainment of a guy’s buddies watching nearby than they are for the purpose of attracting a girl.

Clever lines you aspiring William F. Buckleys might be tempted to use are wasted on tired girls, and likely on any girl with an IQ under 120, which is most of them.

Direct openers aren’t as bad as cutesy openers, but girls still prefer the indirect strategy from men.

The abiding truth that game practitioners keep coming back to (and that science often confirms) is that girls don’t want the nuts and bolts of their seduction revealed to them; they want men to just *know* what they like and give them the *feelings* of being successfully seduced, and that means men must maintain plausible deniability about their sexual intentions, even if feminists shriek that such a mating strategy amounts to “manipulation”.

[Editor: Chicks dig being manipulated!]

Direct openers may work in some niche situations, and on certain types of women, but for most women the direct approach robs them of that feeling they love of being swept up in a romantic moment that ostensibly began as a “ships passing in the night(club)” fortuitous, random meeting.

Or it could simply be that direct openers automatically and instantaneously, by transparently communicating a man’s desire, lower his value vis-á-vis the girl he is hitting on, because she knows exactly how much he values her, and this knowledge gives her all the hand in the interaction. And girls don’t really crave the having of hand in budding romantic situations, despite their claims to the contrary. If the nature of woman is to love the thrill of winning over and eventually surrendering to an aloof, dominant man, then it makes sense they would prefer their seductions are blurred with a gauzy filter of mystery, ambiguity and uncertainty.

This study would seem to validate the efficacy of Roosh’s “elderly opener” tactic, but as the CH reader averred, direct openers should be part of your arsenal even if they aren’t the most broadly effective, because there will be times when indirect openers are ridiculous and self-defeating.





Comments


  1. Matching engery is important. Slightly above if hers is low and lower if hers is high. What you think ya really?

    Like


    • Ya Really doesn’t think. He regurgitates.

      Your energy should be slightly above the girl’s. If she is super high, give her some heroin.

      In any event, the study DIRECTLY asks what girls think they prefer. We all know girls lie, delude themselves, or generally have no idea. Reams of studies show that what women say and prefer are two different things.

      A better study would involve showing a 2 different film clips to 2 different group of girls. The first group would be shown a film showing an actor doing a direct approach. The second group would be shown an indirect approach by the actor. Both groups would have genital blood flow and lubrication measured. The group with the higher flow proves which method works.

      Still, in real life, probably the only thing that matters is the guy making the approach. Most girls that you fuck don’t even remember what you first said to them.

      Like


    • on November 29, 2012 at 2:56 pm Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

      lzozozllzolz

      daGBFM indirect: lostas cockas for you!
      d GBFM direct: lotscockas 4u!

      #2 tendasz to work better with the butetholohiliol geneatriron of anaanaal penetrtrttaed womenz zllzllzlzlzoz

      Like


      • GBFM

        no disrespect intended but my first language is not English , it’s French, and when I try to decipher too many words like “butetholohiliol”

        I get a headache…

        Like


      • on November 29, 2012 at 7:31 pm RappaccinisDaughter

        I’m a native speaker of English, and I’m still trying to decipher WTF he’s saying. Something about Tucker Max and Bernanke.

        Like


      • on November 29, 2012 at 10:17 pm Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

        lzozozolzolzozol tuvker max rhymes iwth goldman sax

        both tucker max and ben benenrnakes violate property rights

        tucker max butthesextes other menz future wives, violating da law of moses and you future wives bunghoeloziliol violating moese’s law which states “thou shalt not commit adultery” and also “thou shalt not covet thy neigehetborz wife” (nor buttehxt her lzozlz)lzozlzlzlzozoz

        ben bernenek buttehxtes the dollar and setealz form teh geenral popaoulaztionz via da inafalaatzin tax lzozozlzlozollzoz, violtaing moeososesMOSES moses’s tenet, “thou shalt not steal.”

        and so u see why tucker max rhyems iwth godlmana ssnanx lxozlzlzlzozo

        Like


      • Cornholio was a Beevis and Butthead spoof character… corn hole means anal sex.

        This is my impression… I cannot, nor will I, guarantee total comprehension of GBFM’s glossolalia… it is, after all, the tongues of the angels.

        Like


      • on November 30, 2012 at 9:51 am RappaccinisDaughter

        TP for me bunghole?

        Like


      • Let me translate for you:

        For GBFM, both his indirect and direct game is about offering powerful masculine sexual energy, but direct game is terse and encapsulated.

        Further, GBFM finds that for the current Millenial generation of women, most of whom who have been serially anally penetrated, direct game more efficient.

        Once you’ve been able to fully digest the Red Pill and encode its lessons upon your DNA, one can see the Matrix and instantly decode GBFM’s wisdom.

        Like


      • Oh stewardess. I speak GBFM.

        He said he’s in great books for men and wondered if you can help him.

        Just hang lol, bungholio. Womenz gona cat h up the bungholio on the butthex.

        Like


      • “Once you’ve been able to fully digest the Red Pill and encode its lessons upon your DNA, one can see the Matrix and instantly decode GBFM’s wisdom.”
        Word

        Like


      • That’s freaking awesome!

        Like


      • on November 29, 2012 at 10:12 pm Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

        lzozozlzozoz

        mon frere ami why did you not say? my native language is also french nd chinese too!!! here is the orginla of my fmaous sermon on getting mounted: “i luvs all ye of little fiath” whichc i orirngally penned in francais oui oui oui!!!!!

        le fraincaiis inevented da butteht!! lzozozlozloz

        i luvs vous allls o de peu de foi

        à tous les célibataires avec des chats
        qui teh nourris dupé dans le célibat / portion de la dette lxolllozlzl
        à tous les fanboys dans les sous-sols ther maman unique de
        dont les pères n’ont jamais su parce que la Fed tookawy fatehrhood lzozlzl
        à tous les familes cassés
        qui ont été dispersées par la nécessité de faire deux fois le salaire pour nourrir les enfants
        à tous womenz vieillissement Necon celeberating tapings secrets de butthex sans teh girlths lzozllzlzozlzl conthent ils vous tircked trop
        à tous les chix vieille fille encore, je suis désolé, ils vous sdesouled
        dans asscokcing sessins vous drogué le prozac
        vous l’ai dit d’abandonner vos enfants n’est pas étonnant que Vous êtes en train d [pressé et tout fucjked jusqu’à lozlzlzlzling pas ici
        mon cœur est à vous tandis que Tucker Max & goldman sax rire zlzolzlzl
        trop tous les fetushes avortés nous demandons pardon, nous méritons pas et à tous ceux dupé dans l’abandon le don de la vie lzozllzllzl nous pardonnons aussi u et prier pour fethuses teh, mais pas à l’école que la prière est illégal à l’école lozlzllzlz
        à tous ceux genertaion INTHE montante qui devront payer leurs parents dettes culturelles et monétaire lzozlz guerre n’est pas amusant, mais ça fait partie de teh Fed fiat cycle de bulle lzozlzllz si semblable après pays d e va buste la guerre commence dans la pompe ultime et schéma udmp vous pensiez Enron / WorldCom / fannae mae était lolzozlzlz mauvais simplement vous attendez lzozlzlll j’espère que non, et ai prier pour la paix lozlzlz peut-être nous pouvons tous apprendre à vivre et à se supporter mais je pense que nous aurions à commencer par la vérité et de la noblesse et l’honneur et ocurage et de la vertu et non la dette fiat et lozlzlzl butthex c’est juste gues NMY de heroduts de lecture et les grands boooks et classis en grec et en latin zlzolzllzlzl

        et la bible trop à propos de Sodome et gomorroah ne yuknow taht forme sodomycame Sodome et gonnoreah provenaient gommroah? lzozllz une blague à ce sujet une seconde je ne doute mais peut-être, qui sait je n’ai jamais eu eitehr sodomie ni gonorreah et je ahve jamais été à Sodome, ni gomoorrah

        sodom doit; avez été un lzolzlozolllzzll drôle d’endroit et une soirée de folie ou deux et le rédacteur en chiefstress priscilla Painton à Simon and Schuster aurait conviendront dans l’édition de livres tucker max de yah i Betin gmorrah qu’ils avaient un tour de babel avec les ofices de simon et schuster en haut dans le couloir former le lzozlzlzllzlzlzlzllzlzlz nourris

        parfois je me demande si les poètes et les prophètes peuvent encore changer le monde?

        ou ont-ils trainde trop, trop de femmes à la haine, et abêtis et drogué trop nombreux menz? ont-ils destoryed trop nombreux pères et tué de nombreuses familles? ont les y deocnstructed livres tyoo nombreux et trop de sang versé et de avortés fetuthes un trop grand nombre que l’on est un de trop. ils ont prescrit du Ritalin à un trop grand nombre de sols cretaive chool dans prozac à trop de gens qui ont besoin d’être déprimés et y faire face quand ils avorter les fœtus en tant que dieu nous a donné des sentiments et nous fait pas attention à ennuyeuses enseignants corproate Stae que toute créativité vient de ne pas en accordant une attention à l’état lzozlzzll et maintenant il est diagnostics comme lzozlzlz Diseas.

        lozlzlzzlzl

        juust bien voulu dire i luv u all et agréable 2 tu sais, et se félicite Abords lzozlzl

        et 2 asnwer mes propres questions ci-dessus
        permettez-moi de dire jsut
        livres teh grands
        ne serait pas grand
        si ils n’étaient pas immortels
        et ils nous offrent rachat
        Pour le moment nous commençons à vivre par tehir ideasl
        et épiques étages supérieurs
        donc déposer votre haine et votre bande de butthex secret
        et ramasser une croix
        et venez me suivre
        et laissez-moi shoulderyour fardeau
        Car mon joug est léger
        dante a écrit la vita nuova, la vie nouvelle
        et il est temps de trouver 4 u votre nouvelle vie
        pour la vieille manière perdra son est de fuind le nouveau chemin
        il ne faut pas craindre
        lozlzlzlzlzlz omg wtf je dis lzozlzlz
        J’ai failli sauter ma couverture ici comme teh messie lzozlzllll i cacher beind tous mes lzozlzllzlzlzlzlzlzlles mais un couple d’entre vous ahve pris sur lzozlzlzlzllzlzl

        Like


      • GBFM(TM)

        Je te remercie pour ton effort mais…désolé meme en francais une grande partie de ton texte est impossible à déchiffrer ( pour moi )

        Je comprends les mots, mais je ne comprend pas le sens de ton texte

        Like


      • on December 1, 2012 at 1:37 am Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

        zlzoozozozozzooz

        bonjour mon ami–mon petite grasshopper–i can show you the door, but you must be the one to open it.

        zlzozoozozolzolz

        Like


      • Il n’y a qu’une solution: continuez à la lire jusq’à ce que la comprehension vienne.

        Like


      • GBFM Cliffnotes:

        1) Women have been desouled* by butthexing* and the subversion of the currency (via inflation) by disingenuous government evil-doers.

        2) GBFM has special powers to bypass their desouled nature, and gives them lots of cock.

        3) One can return to less corrupted state by reading the classic books he has listed I forget where.

        4) The epitome of frivolous, cynical abuse of women is Tucker Max, and his covert videotaping of Max’s anal abuse of women.

        5) Tucker Max rhymes with Goldman Sachs, which he used to point out the parallels between the two: TM has desouled women, GS has helped undermine the US currency.

        GBFM Special Terms Glossary:
        * Desouled– Made cynical, mercenary and hardened by butt sex and a consumer society.

        * Butthexed– Hypnotized into adherence to a shallow, consumerist society by excessive sensual pleasure.

        Like


      • on November 30, 2012 at 12:07 pm Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

        zlzozozolozzllzzloolz

        http://greatbooksformen.wordpress.com/2012/07/29/as-time-goes-on-men-will-find-a-rebirth-and-renaissance-in-reading-the-great-books-and-classics-lzozozozzlo/

        As time goes on, men will find a rebirth and renaissance in reading the Great Books and Classics lzozozozzlo

        As time goes on, men will find a rebirth and renaissance in reading the Great Books and Classics in their original languages, or in translations penned before 1950. For the bible I recommend the KJVB, or, if you must, the NKJVB. The Judeo-Christian tradition contains man’s greatest assets–his greatest myths–the very souls and spirits of his exalted fathers–their trials and tribulations–their exalted advice on women, marriage, justice, money, and life. Beside your bible, keep a copy of Homer’s Iliad and Odyssey and Socrates’ Apology, for you will find that they have far more in common than not.

        The Bible begins with Moses’ heroic, physical journey–liberating his people from the corrupt King. On the first page of the Iliad, Achilles rebels against his corrupt King. Both Moses and Achilles appeared to exalted Natural Law–of Zeus and Yahweh–and tough Mill and Locke would expound upon Natural Rights millennia later, Jefferson referenced not Mill and Locke, but our Creator in the Declaration of Independence. Indeed–liberty’s poet Thomas Jefferson wrote, “As we advance in life, they all fall off, one by one, until we are left with Virgil and Homer, and perhaps Homer alone.”

        So fellas, go forth and read Shakespeare and the Bible as the Men that You Are. Read Homer and Virgil. Exalt in your classical, Judeo-Christain Heritage, for it was paid for in blood, sweat, and tears, and then given freely, to you.

        And as Dalrock points out in the above video, understand that you will be attacked–often to the degree that you serve the spirit of Socrates and Jesus who internalized the external voyages of Moses and Achilles and blazed the hero’s journey of the spirit–understand that you will be attacked and persecuted by the false prophets, pedants, scribes, and pharisees–by the state officials who wash their hands while the feminist scribes author your crucifixion.

        And remember, that even Jesus lost faith at the end. After the chief scribes and pharisees persuaded the people to free the murderous sinner Barabbas and leave Jesus to die, in the same way they do today, Jesus asked, “My God, My God, why has thou foresaken me?”

        One can easily imagine the following playing out in our own time, with the controlling feminist’s/woman’s/corporation’s/university’s/mob’s preference for the perverse and sinful–for the debauched and degraded:

        27:20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas (the murderer/buttcocker), and destroy Jesus.
        27:21 The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas.
        27:22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.
        27:23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.
        27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
        27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
        27:26 Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.
        27:27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers.
        27:28 And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.
        27:29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
        27:30 And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head.
        27:31 And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.
        27:32 And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.
        27:33 And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull,
        27:34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.
        27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
        27:36 And sitting down they watched him there;
        27:37 And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
        27:38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.
        27:39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,
        27:40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
        27:41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
        27:42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
        27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
        27:44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
        27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
        27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

        Now think about that. Jesus Christ–the man who has single-handedly influenced and exalted Western Civilization and the World as no other, lost faith in God in his final moments.

        Aye, but let us explore one layer deeper, as we realize that “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” is but the beginning of the famous Psalm 22:1:

        22 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

        We don’t hear the rest, as Jesus has passed through the other side, but yet, we know what Jesus is saying, as we continue on in Psalm 23:

        23 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
        2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
        3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name’s sake.
        4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

        What this means Men, is that as long as you hold true to your ideals, the false prophets and apologists have no power over you, neither in life, nor death. For as Jesus, the King of Ideals stated, “My Kingdom is not of this world.”

        Thanks again to Dalrock and Heartiste for bringing those classical, exalted ideals to life with with and humor, day in and day out.

        “Better sleep with a sober cannibal than a drunken Christian.” -Herman Melvill

        zlzoozzoozlozozoz

        Like


      • You should always write like this. This was the first post you’ve had that I bothered to read all the way through.

        Like


      • LGBF,

        you have reinforced my Christian/Catholic tendencies.

        Like


      • on November 30, 2012 at 12:13 pm Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

        lozozlozlz chekcout da gbfm lexicon (not to be confused with the butthexicon aka neocon zlozozlzozozozozo)

        what is da tsory of da gbfm?

        when i was in third grade i asked my teacher, “what is the federal resevre?”

        she sent me to da princicple!

        o i asked him, “is it federal? is it a governemnt entity? is it a reserve? does it actaully have any moneyz or does it just create debts?”

        he sent me to the uspeirnetdenient

        so i asked himz “what gives them the moreal authorty to crate out of thin air that whihc i must labor for, and give it to tehir firendz?”

        he send me to the chool nurse who prescievedbed me ritalaizinz and addeoeorloozlzozl lotass pillz lzozlzl for asking stooooopid quetsuzonzznz znzozlololzo

        so i aske dteh nurse, “how is it that the cenrtal bank can create debt out of thin air and den cgahagr inetrest on it funding wars and fmeinsisnzmz and bostionrtoonz? and aborititonz? and why do christians never speak out agianst abortion, nor sosodomy, nor the detah of marriage and fatherhood? Why do chcistians instead kneel down before game, as if moisisntening buttcocked womenz’ gina walls is the greatest glory higher dan chirst ieven? lzozlzlozoozo?”

        and the school nurse injected me with a ritalin addeorlloololzolzoz cocktail

        and ever since den

        i talked like thiss and shsook and shaked when i typex d zlllzozlzozl as i get eixicieted dat i see and hear and see thingsz that noboy else see nor hears

        for tehy are of little fiath lzozlloz

        but jesus jeusus he saves me
        and tellz me dat while the gamerz win on erth in moisuienetig da ssoccked buttcoked women’z gina wallsz with tehir lies and decpetions and degradgations
        christ tells me dat my ideas win
        in his kingdom of ideealz idealz

        and dat is da story of da GBFM

        since yu akeskekd lzozozlozz

        have a niczozoe day!! lzozlzolzoz

        Like


      • Questions for GBFM:

        1. Is there a list on your site of all the great books you recommend?

        2. Is Mein Kampf one of them? (Im not a Nazi, I just like books written by guys in prison)

        3. Any books about trees?

        Thanks.

        Like


      • on November 30, 2012 at 3:49 pm Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

        lzozozlzl i was thinking dat da PILL transofomrns the fertile gina hoel into an infertile buttholezz so that all you fanboyz fuck fuck fuck fuck and still no sons and audghgetrz and all tat that timez spent watsed fucking and fucking and fucking instead of reaoding da great books and clasiscs and goenornroisng your trurte ftaherz zlzozzzzlzlzlzol who ye have let downz zlzolzlzlz

        hey thwackoff rhymes with whackoff,

        my mom is jewish and a holocaust survivor.

        why do you think i would consider mein kampf a great book? are you a crazyzy moyteherfuckkekrkzozlzozlzl?

        here’re some great bookzkz for menz which exalt MAN’S NATURAL RIGHTSZZZZ:

        1. Homer’s Iliad
        2. Homer’s Odyssey
        3. Exodus, Ecclesiastes, and the Psalms
        4. Virgil’s Aeneid
        5. Socrates’ Apology
        6. The Book of Matthew & Jefferson’s Bible
        7. Plato’s Repulic
        8. Seneca’s Letters from a Stoic
        9. Dante’s Inferno
        10. The Declaration of Independence
        11. The Constitution
        12. John Milton’s Paradise Lost
        13. Shakespeare’s Hamlet
        14. Newton’s Principia
        15. Adam Smith’s Wealth of Nations and Theory of Moral Sentiments
        16. Shakespeare’s Hamlet
        17. Ludwig von Mises’ A Theory of Money and Credit
        18. F.A. Hayek’s The Road to Serfdom
        19. Herman Melville’s Moby Dick
        20. Einstein’s The Meaning of Relativity
        21. The Analects of Confucius
        22. Huston Smith’s The World’s Religions
        21. Joseph Campbell’s The Hero With a Thousand Faces and The Power of Myth
        24. Ron Paul’s Revolution

        If ye read all these bookzz, insteadz of purusing buttoholified pussysysuuyssu, dne you will be a step closer .

        The Fatal Flaw of the MRM/Manosphere is that they do as they are told and they ignore the GREAT BOOKS FOR MEN. They ignore their Fathers and their Rightful HEritage, instead, choosing to bicekr on blogz like a bunch fo zlzoozlzoz womenzzozmlzlzlzoz

        Heartsitses alone stands like a towering ligthhouse as he enever bickerz but stands liek Captain Ahas, his hand firm on the wheel, guinding his vessel forvers towardz truth ane d buetayiez zzlzoozozozozooz

        while the other “menz” shut down tehir belogz zlzozozozoozzo

        Like


      • Here’s an extra bonus for you thwack… Kilmer’s poem sung by your very own Paul Robeson… and he wasn’t even hanging in it!

        Like


      • “Is Mein Kampf one of them?”

        Excellent question. There is more to you than meets the eye, thwack.

        All kidding aside, GBFM’s offering is outstanding. I often say Greek knowledge is the brain of the west and Judaism is the soul. They combine as Western Judeo-Christian values. You can learn much from this list of books. Mein Kampf has no place there 🙂

        I am sure some of the chateau readers are not happy about the omission of Mein Kampf from this illustrious list, which they have studied in advanced university courses at Nazi university, so they say.

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      • School nurthe.

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      • Thanks siberian

        Thanks Greg

        Thanks Revo

        but despite all your help I do not really get what GBFM(TM) is trying to say or why he does it that way

        Maybe it is an acquired taste but I’m not there yet…and may never be

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      • He’s reminding us of what it means to be great and that a civilized society can only exist if led by men who understand this. We are divided and conquered by our opponents politically by women because we fail to learn the lessons contained in the sum total of our Western Judeo-Christian heritage.

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      • on December 1, 2012 at 11:07 am Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

        go to da head of da class tyorne!!! lzozolzlzlzo

        ahed of all da butehxteettsrs and secetirve taperz of butthetx who the neocnths womenz love and finance and publish and promote and celebrate as heroes, repretaingtheir lies thatthey are six feet talallalslz lzzozolzlz

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      • Tyrone
        He’s reminding us of what it means to be great and that a civilized society can only exist if led by men who understand this. We are divided and conquered by our opponents politically by women because we fail to learn the lessons contained in the sum total of our Western Judeo-Christian heritage.
        ————
        Sure, you can read all those books, or you can just listen to this nigga:

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      • I am no native english speaker.

        And still, I revere GBFM.

        If only the pain wasn’t so acute, I’d read all his posts.

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    • This blog is a joke. Direct game is clearly more alpha and works. I know from experience and lookup people like David X. Plenty of people have success running direct game.

      [Heartiste: Hey man, don’t j’accuse me! I agree with you. Well, mostly.]

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  2. Like Roosh says, got to keep on Rambling. Perfect that elderly ramble. The stuff works.
    Although, the hottest woman I’ve dated so far, I met at a lecture on medieval beliefs & superstitions, and I opened her head-on afterwards with “Are you alchemical?” then sustained eye contact and a smirk.

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  3. Good find. I don’t trash direct game, but indirect is a good “default” to have in any country or venue. Direct game seems to be solely tailored for street game in European countries.

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    • “direct openers should be part of your arsenal even if they aren’t the most broadly effective ,because there will be times when indirect openers are ridiculous and self-defeating.”

      Like when ?

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    • @roosh….In asia where I live indirect game is a much better way to open than direct. Girls tend to say things like “I don’t like perverts” etc etc. But if you engage them about whatever, they tend to open up. Then they often go direct…”You are very handsome…” etc. Then you know it’s on.

      I also like Krauser’s “Long Game” concept. It works for me but until I read it I hadn’t realized it was a real thing.

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  4. So indirect is THE way to go. Damn I might actually have to put in work for this.

    BTW I go direct to girls that I have a lot of contact with (girls I see on my college’s hallway on an almost daily basis, girls that friend zoned my social circle etc.) and it works “alright” so far (meaning they will say no the first time, then say yes later on)

    The term I use is “hang out” so not really direct?

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  5. Too often I find myself in impromptu daygame scenarios where I see the girl, confirm that she passes the boner test, and then have no choice (as I see it) but to directly open her before she walks away (ala Krauser). And in coffee shops etc. I can’t help but make eye contact with an attractive girl, and then have no plausible deniability to start elderly chatting about the make of her iPhone or the best flavor of cappuccino (I’ve tried this, for the record; you just come off as spineless and/or creepy if you already shared eye contact with them). Direct game is an absolute put-up-or-shut-up proposition and it forces the girl to make judgement calls that rely too heavily on your appearance, no doubt, but I’m having considerable trouble finding an opportunity to innocuously ramble about a ‘prop’ in all but the most fortuitous situations.

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    • Is the problem that when you do indirect, you deep-down think how it’s all a ruse? Like ya you’re chatting about the iPhone even though you know you don’t care and it’s making you uncomfortable.

      If that’s the case then I hear what you mean. It’s almost like you have to convince yourself that what you’re doing is an ends to a mean and that it’s just for practice. No harm, no foul.

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      • Great that you hear what he means, but what shoud he do about it? (I got the same prob)

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      • I think you may have hit it, actually. I tend to prefer being very open with my sexual intent; I don’t play the innocent guy very well, and attempting to do so makes me feel off-balance and out of character. Because of this I end up eye-fucking them as soon as I see them, thus making it very difficult for me to dial it back.

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      • I feel your predicament and why it may make you feel incongruent. But if your goal is the lay then fake the genuineness and do a little acting if that’s what it takes.

        Here in NYC, a default opener you could use (with the right body language, proximity, etc, etc) is “Hey I just wanted to say I really like your style” (Or pick out anything peculiar about what she’s wearing.

        Her: Oh, hey thank you
        You: Do you work in fashion? What do you do here in the city?

        And boom from there you can continue the convo and steer it the way you want and spike it with DHVs, negs, disqualifiers, etc.

        You may be thinking it’s bullshit and yes, there is no way you really could give a shit about what she’s wearing. She’s not going to know that though, especially if said right and if you come off as sincere/genuine. And you could go in with the neg quickly. “Hm let me guess, you definitely don’t work in fashion.” (Stolen from Krauser) and then all of a sudden you got her interest. Take it from there.

        You might say how it’s fake and I hear ya but the point is in this situ u went in under the radar but were still able to make your sexual intent clear after that. Indirect —> leading to direct. All you had to do was kill your soul for those 5 seconds when you told her you digged her style.

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      • You can glean a lot of information about a girl from idle chit-chat that will help you in your seduction strategy. It’s not necessarily a ruse.

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    • Or just practice idle chit chat with people you aren’t attracted to. Make idle chit chat with older ladies, people who are working in a department store, or even dudes. The only difference is you don’t escalate the conversation (hopefully).

      I’ve actually practiced this and it’s easy to do when you aren’t trying to get into their pants. Unless they are a huge introvert or a jerk of epic proportions it should be easy to start a conversation about anything in the environment. You just have to take that mindset to an attractive woman you start talking to.

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    • I like this, following some web page’s advice on pickup= beta. Fuck the world and stupid girls and say whatever you want. FInd the women with daring.

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  6. The PUA community used to think you needed solid indirect openers to open. Then we found out you could go direct. Like I’ve said before, when you get two different outcomes from the same action, it means you can boil it down to a deeper concept.

    Now we understand that you can open with anything, as long as what you open with comes from a place of self-amusement and congruency.

    When you think “How should I open this girl?” you’re essentially thinking “What can I say/do to earn this girl’s validation?” and you’re already coming from a frame of having lower value than her.

    When you think “What I’m saying is gold, of course she’ll love me, I’m so awesome!” you’re essentially screening her for “Is she cool enough for me to let her hang with me?” and you’re coming from a frame of having higher value than her.

    Girls generally pick up on this subconsciously, because they’ve spent their lives having to learn to quickly assess “is this person being genuine/honest with me or are they trying to get something from me?”

    A lot of why “Who lies more?” worked so well was because the guys learning it felt like they found the secret invincible formula, so when they approached with it they were approaching from that “This is going to blow her mind, of course she’s going to love me” frame.

    Direct worked because the guys who tried it were sick of going indirect and beating around the bush and wanted to just get their intentions out in the open so they were just saying “HEY. You’re cute, I’d kick myself if I didn’t come say hi.” and expecting it to work, so it did.

    When you’re out of state and feeling anti-social and just pushing yourself into sets with girls you’re not even into because you feel you “have” to because you’re out sarging, most of your sets will go shitty or not open at all, because you’re just going through the motion and even though “Hey, you’re cute, who are you?” worked the night before when you were on fire and met some super hot chick you were into, now you’re coming from a place of trying to get her validation to appease your ego and so you crash and burn with the exact same line.

    Eventually you crash and burn enough that your ego goes “Fuck it, this is horrible lol it can’t possibly get any worse, let’s just fuck around instead of trying to keep our PUA Batting Average flawless!” and then you let go of your attachment to the outcome and start self-amusing and suddenly shit opens for you.

    The guys at RSD are opening girls with “DOG. Cunt! Whore!!” right now and it works because it’s amusing to them so the girl can tell they’re approaching from a place of qualifying/screening/testing them VS trying to seek their approval. This is also why Naturals can open with retarded shit that objectively AFCs overhear and go “wtf!! That’s not even funny, it’s just ’cause he’s 6’4″ and rich that she likes him, and she’s a bar slut!” lol Because Naturals are pretty much the kings of self-amusement…somewhere along the way their life circumstances taught them not to take hitting on girls seriously at all so anything they say is coming from the right place, VS the pickup newbie who’s ENTIRE SELF-WORTH AS A HUMAN BEING depends on her being receptive.

    You can open just by staring her down and literally not saying anything for a few minutes, you can open by making retarded noises, you can open by shouting her down like she’s in trouble, you can open self-depreciatingly, you can open overly-cocky, you can open with long flourishing elaborate dialogue Russel Brand style, you can open with cheesy “Hey baby, do you like raisins?” lines, etc….the “what” doesn’t matter, it’s the “why” that matters.

    Congruency and self-amusement are the key. The rest is just mental masturbation.

    [heartiste: yes, this is all very good to remember, but it also helps these discussions to realize that the bulk of men in these studies are not game-aware men who act from a position of self-amusement and congruency. these studies are examining average men, and finding that for the average man — the man who doesn’t have the alpha attitude — indirect openers are his best bet.
    i’d say, noobs should start with indirect, and then experiment as they begin to adopt a better frame of mind about the whole pickup enterprise.]

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    • Yo dude. I ended up texting that girl that went cold on me a few weeks back. Here’s the exchange I’d like to hear where you think I could have done better:

      Me: So what does miss Gaby want from Santa this year

      Her: Lol! 🙂 hmm,, a handosme, humble, funny, hard worker, and lovely boyfriend lol! How u have been? Im running out of battery! 😦 i left my charger at home 😦

      Me: U were too naughty this year to get that for Xmas, whoever it may be ;-p
      Me: I’m good. I want to hear how uve been tho lets talk on the phone sometime when ur free

      Her: Today, il be at home by 10:30

      Me: Hey, I’m going to be at the gym before, so I might call u a few minutes after that.
      Me: Talk to u around 10:30

      Her: kk

      (Intermission) I called a few min after 10:45p. We spoke for about a half hour and I was using cocky/funny and rapport building…whatver

      Me: (A few min after phone call)
      Hey I want a pic of u I only have that one from Halloween :o(

      Her: B-)
      Her: :-p
      Her: Ok, lets make an exchange o_O
      Her: Send me one of yours 😉

      Me: Ladies first

      Her: Lol! Pretty smart! I like that 🙂

      Me: But ya. I’ll give a PG or PG-13 version depending on urs

      Her: ?

      Me: (I sent a pic of me in a blazer & button down seated at rooftop restaurant, cocky smirk and cropped out chick I was with but enough of her face and hair to let it be known there was a girl next to me)

      Her: (Sent a sexy close-up face pic…damn) Ok, aqui va. Miss Mexico. Primavera/ verano 2012. Lol! Version rubia. Lol!
      Her: Just, don’t do any voodoo ok. Lol!
      Her: 😦 I cant see it! X (referring to pic I sent her)

      Me: I don’t think that’s u. What did u do with the real Gaby (because of blonde hair)
      Me: Ok I’ll send u another. BUt I want to see more of u in the next one ok?

      Her: Thats no…Fair, loL! U know:)
      Her: Kk
      Her: No worries

      Me: (Sent a pic a friend took of me finishing a set at the gym. Not bragging but it’s not a herb-like pic. I’m in good shape and strong and it’s upperbody and I wasn’t posing)
      U can do all the vodoo u want
      Me: Ur turn, Miss Mexico ;o)

      Her: Lol! 😉

      …RADIO Silence

      So yeah, I’m in the learning process and no doubt I fucked up at some points but hella proud I re-engaged and took the lead with the phone call. Also happy that I got a pic and tried to get to her to escalate with a more sultry one. To all the KJs salivating at tearing this apart…I humbly admit that my skills are beginner status.

      Maybe the last pic was too much but I showed my buddy who games the text stream and he thought the whole exchange was solid. I’d say I’m in better shape than this girl so maybe if she thought she had to compete by showing more she felt insecure doing so. Maybe I’m mentally masturbating here…

      -IG

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      • Disclaimer. On the phone I pushed for meet up and it’s set to go down in the next weekend or two. I took the lead and said I’ll organize with something fun to do for both of us. I didn’t get on the phone to dilly-dally and had an objective in mind (flirt/build rapport/push for meet-up).

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      • lol you went from “no outcome in mind” to “too much outcome in mind”. 🙂 But that’s all good, that’s how we learn. We go from one extreme to the other and then learn to find the sweet spot in the middle.

        First up tho, some congrats:

        “On the phone I pushed for meet up and it’s set to go down in the next weekend or two. I took the lead and said I’ll organize with something fun to do for both of us. I didn’t get on the phone to dilly-dally and had an objective in mind (flirt/build rapport/push for meet-up).”

        Good stuff! The important thing is that you consciously made the decision to follow a game plan and head towards an objective. 🙂 It’s hard to say how much damage was done here, but she’d probably flake if you tried to make plans right now. I would go radio silence on her till next week and then spike her emotions via txt and when she’s in a receptive mood, push for the meet-up for that weekend.

        Breakdown:

        All good up to the phone call so far. You spiked her emotions and took charge and told her let’s talk on the phone, so she answered.

        “Her: Ok, lets make an exchange o_O”

        Her trying to take the frame back (aka a shit-test)

        “Me: Ladies first”

        Perfect. 🙂 Shit-test passed, you keep the frame. And she KNOWS it:

        “Her: Lol! Pretty smart! I like that :)”

        See, like I was talking about before where she doesn’t REALLY care what you do for a living when she asks, she’s just seeing if you’ll qualify yourself etc. Here she doesn’t REALLY care about getting a picture from you, she just wanted to see how you’d react if she threw down an ultimatum/demand.

        If you had just stopped responding, she’d’ve sent a pic. Unfortunately, this is where you get de-railed lol

        “Me: But ya. I’ll give a PG or PG-13 version depending on urs”

        ahhhh shit. This is where you went into “too much outcome in mind”. It’s good that you decided “I’m going to get pics from her”, but here is where you get too dependent on the outcome. You’re so determined to get pics that now you’re negotiating and trying to qualify yourself to get them.

        1) Girls don’t care about pics from guys, unless they don’t know what you look like. There’s a reason 50 Shades of Grey isn’t full of photographs, they just don’t care about that shit. Don’t send ’em naked pics. If you guys are exchanging dirty pics, HAVE SEX WITH HER IN PERSON instead lol

        2) Now you’re trying to negotiate. If you had stopped at “Ladies first” you’d have looked like a badass with standards who just expects her to cough up a pic. As soon as you sent the next txt, you’re basically saying “…but since I don’t REALLY expect you to do it, here’s my offer to sweeten the deal up, please?”

        “Her: ?”

        This is her going “wait what? I thought you were an alpha badass, why are you willingly throwing away all the Hand you had in this interaction??” lol

        “and cropped out chick I was with but enough of her face and hair to let it be known there was a girl next to me)”

        whew, good, if you ARE gonna’ send pics of yourself, that’s a good type to send at least! Understand though, that there’s two levels of communication going on…there’s the picture/txt exchange, and there’s the sub-communicated push/pull frame battle for Hand. You’re focused more on the obvious exchange than the sub-communicated one.

        “Her: 😦 I cant see it! X (referring to pic I sent her)”

        A good response here would be to tease her on missing out. 🙂 As opposed to sending her more pics. Because again she doesn’t really care about “I’ve sent 3 pics so I require an exchange of 3 pics from him to balance out the equation of fairness”.

        “Me: I don’t think that’s u. What did u do with the real Gaby (because of blonde hair)”

        Good stuff. An accusing tease instead of a “wow you’re so hot”. Well-handled, you’re communicating emotionally here because in her mind she goes “omg lol of COURSE it’s MEEE!!!” and ends up wanting to send another pic or two under the guise of now having to convince you she’s not lying. Again this is emotional communication, which is what she wants, VS “That is an acceptable PG-13 pic, so I will now send you a PG-13 pic of myself so that our exchange will be considered even.”

        “Me: Ok I’ll send u another. BUt I want to see more of u in the next one ok?”

        Spiraling down into outcome dependence. I totally get where your head was at, I’ve done that too lol But this is again what I mean when I say you’re too focused on the outcome (getting a sexy pic from her instead of just a lame face one) that it’s fucking with all your sub-communications and now you’re becoming needy/desperate for the pic, VS before where you were just like “I might call you after the gym, who knows, maybe, maybe not, yawn, I could take or leave you.”

        Note the pattern your behavior took:

        “I want to hear how uve been tho lets talk on the phone sometime when ur free” (demanding but aloof)
        “Hey, I’m going to be at the gym before, so I might call u a few minutes after that.” (demanding but aloof)
        “Hey I want a pic of u I only have that one from Halloween” (demanding but aloof)
        “Me: Ladies first” (demanding but aloof)
        “Me: But ya. I’ll give a PG or PG-13 version depending on urs” (negotiating/needy)
        “Me: Ok I’ll send u another. BUt I want to see more of u in the next one ok?” (negotiating/needy)
        “Me: U can do all the vodoo u want” (flirty, but now you’re in the needy frame to her, so it comes off bad)
        “Me: Ur turn, Miss Mexico ;o)” (needy)

        This is kind of like going in for the kiss and her turning her cheek at the last second. The good way to handle that is to laugh it off, not be phased, and try again later. The bad way to handle that is to go “please kiss me? c’mon?? here what if I have a breath mint first? Now kiss me, okay??” You’re essentially doing the 2nd one here with the pushing for a sexy pic…which I know is annoying because it’s like “but I thought I was supposed to shoot for a goal, wtf??” lol It’s more like, have a specific goal, and push for it, but if you hit too much resistance be completely okay with backing off and trying again later…learning to spot that point of “too much resistance” is just calibration that just comes with field experience so you’ll get the hang of it in time. We ALL lose tons of girls while we learn to calibrate, that’s just how it goes. 🙂

        Note that here:

        “Her: Thats no…Fair, loL! U know:)”

        She doesn’t give a shit that she didn’t get a pic. She’s more happy that she got the emotion of “Hey!! That’s not fair!!! grrrr 🙂 🙂 :)”, know what I mean? It’s like when a girl fishes for a compliment and you tease her…she wouldn’t have given a shit if you said she didn’t look fat in those jeans anyway, what makes her happy is getting an emotional spike of “omg you’re such an asshole lol!!” and punching you in the arm.

        “Her: No worries”

        See, she’s saying like, “I totally don’t care about the pics dude. Don’t qualify yourself to me, I was liking you and you’re fuckin’ it up here!”

        “Her: Lol! ;)”

        She knows she won that whole exchange and now you’re chasing her in her frame. Imagine if you had responded:

        “Her: Thats no…Fair, loL! U know:)”
        “You: Lol! ;)”

        And then shut your phone off and went to bed for the night.

        “I’d say I’m in better shape than this girl so maybe if she thought she had to compete by showing more she felt insecure doing so.”

        Totally doesn’t matter. She doesn’t give a shit about what’s in the pic. You’re focused on the logical communication instead of the emotional communication.

        Think of it like this: You’re playing Poker and the guy across from you is a millionaire, but you’re REALLY good at reading people and you’ve got this guy nailed. He raises a bunch of money in the pot and you know he’s bluffing, and in his mind he’s thinking “THIS amount will scare him off…this is a significant amount of money for this guy, if he does the logical calculations of how many chips he has and how many I have and he weighs the mathematical odds he’ll have to fold because it won’t be worth the risk to him…”

        But in your mind, you have him nailed, you know him to his core, and you KNOW he’s bluffing, so you don’t care how much he puts in. You aren’t even looking at the chips he puts in, you’re just looking him in the eyes. He could put in a billion dollars or he could put in a handful of rocks, and you wouldn’t even notice because you don’t give a shit about what’s in the pot, you’re playing a different game than the logical mathematical one on the table.

        That’s how this is. Your pics are like the millionaire’s bet, she doesn’t care how much the bet was, she already knows she has you.

        All in all a good learning experience, even if you don’t get her. The main thing is you’re consciously trying to lead things toward specific goals…it’ll make a big difference in the long-run compared to just hoping “something” happens like most guys do!

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      • Well yareally once again my mind is fucking blown with how much u are able to see in a text exchange that would go over 99% of peoples heads.

        I can’t argue with a single thing you said. It’s almost scary how much info u can glean and then explain what’s really going on.

        I was reading your post yesterday on the bus and it was like each paragraph a light-bulb went off. Like in the back of my mind I knew “maybe” where I fucked up but the reason was obscure, dark and cloudy and then as I kept reading your reply it was like a lamp being turned on in the corner of the room. Then at the end it was the lightswitch turning on the overhead lights. Then I could see everything in the room and…..fuckkkkkk.

        Odds are I’ll be in similar situs and I’ll fuck them up again but do it less and less. Thanks for being cool and understanding about all this it makes it easier to shake my head and laugh about the whole exchange because you went thru it too and it’s all part of the process.

        I think it’s a good thing that I was sweating the exchange (and the girl really) like I did so this learning lesson will make a great impact upon me. If this was a girl that I wasn’t as into then I doubt I would take away from this as much as I would. Experience is the best teacher. A painful one is even better; even if I didn’t get the outcome that I wanted.

        TL;DR: Fail. Learn. Fail. Learn. Fail. Learn. Thanks again brother.

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      • “Odds are I’ll be in similar situs”

        You will.

        “and I’ll fuck them up again”

        You will lol

        “but do it less and less.”

        You will…after all, how do you think I learned this shit? Same way. 🙂

        Glad I can help. Like I say, whether you get this girl or not, this was a good learning experience for you. You’ll be more conscious of this stuff with the next girl you txt or if you get further with this interaction.

        Like


    • The guys at RSD are opening girls with “DOG. Cunt! Whore!!”

      So they say. I have yet to see in-field of this and if it works. Any links?

      [heartiste: i imagine for something like this to work, it has to be obvious to the girl that the guy is clowning around.]

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      • These clips aren’t of them doing it literally AS the opener, but right away (first few seconds to first few minutes) as soon as they meet the girl. There are probably clips of them opening with it at the Hot Seat events, but these are from some free clips. I don’t see any reason to believe they can’t actually open with it, I’ve opened with retarded shit (insults, jibberish, fake languages, complete silence, etc.), it’s really all in the sub-communications. Tyler is currently a lot less congruent with it because he’s trying it out and it comes off weird still, but as he says:

        “So you may have noticed I’ve been FIELD TESTING / EXPERIMENTING with a lot of Julien’s ideas lately, especially in the recent infield video clips. One of the things that shocked me was in a Julien Free Tour video he mentioned calling girls “SLUTS!” and “DOGS!” My initial reaction was “This is too hardcore, not my personality…” but my general view of anything outside my comfort zone is that it is EXACTLY WHAT I NEED TO TRY.”

        Julien talking about it:

        Julien at about 3:30 in calling a girl a deadbeat white-trash whore:

        Small clip of Tyler at the start of this video:

        Small clip of Tyler at the start of this video:

        Small clip of Tyler again at the start of this video:

        “[heartiste: i imagine for something like this to work, it has to be obvious to the girl that the guy is clowning around.]”

        lol I wouldn’t recommend newbies try it, put it that way. 🙂 But for the sake of expanding the understanding of social dynamics, it’s important that there are guys trying outlandish shit like this so we can figure out “okay why does this work when logically it shouldn’t? What principles of Game are underlying it that makes it work or not work?”

        There was a time when people thought throwing your arm around a girl as you say “Hey, you’re cute, who are you?” was impossible. Now it’s a pretty standard PUA opener.

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      • Thanks. I was expecting something different. They aren’t exactly opening with those lines. It appears as they have already established that they are fun, aloof guys but are basically just being crass and crude. Not a problem if you still maintain a playful, devil may care attitude.

        I have to say that this does work well. Pre-discovering game I did well with women to the amazement of my friends because I have no internal filter and fucked up shit often spills out of my mouth hole. Yet I’d still end up going home with the girl I “offended” because it comes from a positive place and not the bitter rantings of a beta hater. Game just elevated my low level naturalness to higher levels.

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      • “They aren’t exactly opening with those lines.”

        Ya, like I say, you’d probably have to sign-up to attend a Hot Seat live event (where they spend a couple days showing in-field footage (including from meet all the way to lay) and breaking the interactions down bit by bit explaining the dynamics) to see footage of that.

        Mostly they’re using it to just break the “politeness barrier” that most chicks put up, to shake their frame and snap the girl into the moment, out of the bullshit facade they have to put on to weed out lame guys…from there they can have a normal interaction.

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      • Julien is a full on psychopath, which is great thing or learning from. He’ll try anything.

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    • Yar’s good read as always. I’ve found that no matter what I’ve said, two things happen either ignored or engaging, so isn’t there also the thing that the girl decides on whether she likes you immediately (which sounds anti-game).

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      • Gotta’ break it down further. Why was one opener ignored and the other engaged? Was it the girl? Was it the opener? Was it your vibe? etc. etc.

        This is why PUAs go out and run the same opener on dozens of types/ages/races/etc. of girls in a bunch of different situations/environments/etc. We’re looking for why sometimes “Hi, my name is YaReally.” works and why sometimes it doesn’t, so we can increase our odds.

        End of the day game is like Poker or Blackjack, there’s still elements you can’t control and some random outcomes, but with proper strategy you can heavily tilt the %s in your favor. A lot of anti-gamer types are like “Ohhh look that girl shot you down, so Game doesn’t work, see?? It’s just a numbers game!!” and it’s like, no, it’s just not 100%. But if a guy with no game approaches 100 girls and a guy with game approaches 100 girls, the guy with game is going to succeed a fuckload more consistently.

        Like


      • I want to ask you, YaReally, because I think you’re the epitome of retarded honesty (not that you’re dumb, just that you’re correct): I am extremely emotionally fucked up by a situation that happened recently involving an ex BPD who I was doing well fucking around with alongside other girls.

        Until she had an outburst. It has literally traumatized me.

        I am out of my element. But, nothing really would go to show that.

        But, really, I am fucking depressed. She hurt me. She hurt herself. Immensely. And now she’s suddenly disappeared. I don’t even know if she’s alive. I fear for her life and those who she will engage with. She is capable of extreme violence.

        How do I get over this? I thought I was doing great, and then something happened, and I let her back in.

        Yareally I Ask you because you seem to be ok with what you do, and it’s what I usually do, accept for now, when I can’t. Because I am hurt. I don’t understand these emotions. She hurt herself because of me. I witnessed it. I’ve seen it before. I’ve been on and off with her a long time. But last time, after she was with me intimately nonstop she had a break and it was more violent than I could have ever imagined. I am glad I didn’t hurt her though was able to subdue her, and prevent further bad things from happening.

        I’m drinking because I don’t understand this, so I apologize for the shit writing.

        I don’t get this. I know I should just move on – it’s only been 24 hours since fucking around in my car and her attempted murder AND suicide – but her immediate silence in response to her fucking things up is fucking with me. I think she may need professional help at this point. This is not about me. This is about what the fuck is someone supposed to do when another actually poses a legit threat to themselves and others around them?

        I came here to ask you, so please give me a response. Or give me your email so I can explain further. You respond in honest detail so I want your opinion.

        Like


      • Run like a motherfucker and be glad you escaped without being killed, her killing herself, getting your dick chopped off, getting falsely accused of rape, getting her pregnant and being legally strapped to her for 18+years, etc. You dodged a fucking bullet.

        Your instincts will be to try to “save” her because you care about her, and that’s admirable and shit, but take it from the thousands of guys who’ve dated BPD chicks: 1) you will NEVER be able to save them, they will continue their destructive patterns and you can’t change that, 2) the more you try to save them the more your life will get fucked up, and 3) they generally won’t actually commit suicide or anything, they’ll move onto the next guy and do the same shit with him.

        You need to cut her out of your life entirely, mentally and physically, no more responding to txts or anything, tell her to get help and block her number, delete her off Facebook, change your locks if she had a key, etc. At the same time, hang out with your buddies and go talk to some new girls. Hanging out with some cool down-to-earth chicks will put your girl’s psycho behavior in perspective and you’ll understand that you deserve better than that.

        http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=164551&page=3

        http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=185333

        http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/01/20/borderline-personality-disorder/

        Don’t fuck around, GTFO and let her do whatever she’s going to do. Odds are she’ll throw some tantrums and threats and then latch onto some other guy when you stop giving her ANY attention (good or bad).

        BPD chicks are a spider-web of emotional trauma. You will get stuck and sucked the fuck back in over and over and over until you end up in a situation where you look back at this moment and go “fuck, YaReally and all those other guys were right, I really should’ve cut and run…NOW I’m fucked :(”

        In conclusion:

        RUN.

        Like


      • 110% agree with this. I was 18, naive, and got involved with a girl like this. I didn’t understand it at the time, she seemed to be going through a lot of stuff yet would never really fill in the blanks, I just had that “white knight” instinct to help her make it better.

        Then she turned it around on me. And then I believed I was to blame even though I didn’t know what I had done wrong. It wrecked me because I had good faith in others and NEVER imagined someone manipulating me like that just to get their rocks off.

        PSA to all up and comers….if a girl has wild outbursts of drama, or hell, even if something feels a little off with her, DO NOT try to save her. She don’t wanna be saved…

        Like


      • Yeah, though the bluffing, such as it is, can be pretty hardcore. Nothing like having a hysteric mess covered in her own blood showing up unannounced at 3 AM on a weekday.

        (“Come in, I was just about to boil a bunny anyway.”)

        Like


    • I guess I’m more in the natural game camp. don’t really have a problem approaching a girl either direct or indirect. I could just ask them what time it is or say hi and ask them what they’re up to. I don’t have to tell myself how high value I am, or try to force myself to not expect any particular response or outcome in the interaction. within a couple minutes, they always ask me what I do. Maybe this is something chicks ask as a default question, or they are searching to find something attractive about me after being underwhelmed by my appearance, who knows. But I think its just a matter of getting some internal game basics down and then not giving a hoot. I’m employed, in good shape, decent looking, medium height, introverted but intelligent. I’m also balding, thin, not great skin…The point is, I’m fine with myself and am not too worried about finding girls that will want to sleep with me. Its happened enough times throughout my life that I’m sure it will happen again. And if not tonight, I’ll go home and beat off. Its just not that important to me to get to triple digits, or to find a girl hotter than the last one I slept with. If I’m looking for sex, a 7 or up will do just fine. If I’m looking for a girl to hang out with…yeah, not really. But anyway, using this non-game game, I can strike up a convo with the hottest girls in the bar. At most I just try to mind my posture, not lean in, and not to talk too much. Then I just observe the quirky things chicks say and do. Things just seem to go from there. You get a sense of who’s single and who’s not, what each chick’s “agenda” is in going out, and you can pretty much make up a battle plan on the fly.

      I wouldn’t post this except for the fact that this non-game amazes my male friends. Its insane how locked up inside guys get about approaching girls. I was at a bachelor party a couple weeks ago and I just walked over and started talking to these girls. I helped myself to a seat at their table and talked to them for a few minutes. The guys I was with thought this was just an insane act of bravery or something. They were also all lawyers though, so maybe they are just pussies.

      Like


      • lol for any newbies to Game reading this, this is pretty much how Naturals operate. This is the mindset of a Natural. A lot of times they can’t even wrap their heads around the concept of having to “learn to approach women”. It would be as strange as someone saying “I’m learning how to breath air” or “I’m so nervous to breath air!!”

        The mindset that you don’t care, don’t expect anything to go wrong, don’t attach any self-worth to how girls react, and that you just overall expect to be able to do whatever you want to do and that at some point a girl will sleep with you, is why you can pretty much say and do whatever you want. Girls pick up on all those sub-communications, and they’re not sub-communications the pickup newbie in the corner trying to pep-talk himself into asking “Who lies more, men or women?” is giving off lol

        Thanks for sharing, it’s good for guys learning Game to understand this mindset. I’ve hung with a bunch of Naturals so I’ve seen this a lot. Most of the time I don’t even tell them about Game, and they just think I’m a Natural myself. I find it’s good to hang out with them now and then because their total ease at approaching pushes me to go “oh ya, fuck, this really isn’t a big deal, time to get out of my head and hit that girl up”

        Like


      • “The mindset that you don’t care, don’t expect anything to go wrong, don’t attach any self-worth to how girls react, and that you just overall expect to be able to do whatever you want to do and that at some point a girl will sleep with you, is why you can pretty much say and do whatever you want.”

        Amazing you mention that…I’m still a noob but I realized my mindset has quickly turned to this. I’ve started interacting with lots of people (I used to be more introverted) and that’s what starts to happen. You just expect it to work…and if it doesn’t, so what.

        That probably the natural result of what happens when approach anxiety fades away.

        Like


      • Yup, all you gotta do is take the hot girl home from the bar once and you realize getting laid ain’t that important. That starts a feedback loop of getting laid more and thus caring less ad infinitum.

        Like


      • A Natural is merely someone who observes reality and adjusts his behavior accordingly, without the need to embrace dogma of any stripe or color.

        Like


    • on November 29, 2012 at 5:32 pm RappaccinisDaughter

      And to follow up on Ya’s point about not letting your entire self-worth be wrapped up in whether one individual girl responds to you…please don’t. If she doesn’t respond, it may not have a thing to do with you. Maybe she’s just tired or sick or worried about something else.

      Some dude tried what sounds like an indirect opener on me a couple of days ago, in the grocery store. I’d realized that I was out of cat food* and Red Bull, so I had to go to the store. I really hate grocery shopping, and I’d had a headache all day, I was already embarrassed about having a handbasket chock-full of Crazy Cat Lady, and oh look, just my luck, I’m stuck behind a WIC whore.

      So when the guy in front of me in line said, “Well, that looks like quite a party you’ve got going there!” it didn’t even really register with me that he was doing anything other than trying to fill the time while the dumb twunt in front of him fiddled with her WIC coupons** while ignoring her two whining toddlers.

      Normally I might have made some crack about this being the Paula Deen version of pate de fois gras, but…I had nothing left. Totally empty gas tank. So instead I just kind of muttered something like, “Um yeah, gotta get the party essentials,” gave him a half-hearted smile, and went right back to staring off into space.

      And then he tried again. “So how many people are coming to your cat food party?” And once again, headache pounding in my temples, all I had in response was a weak little chuckle.

      There wasn’t anything wrong with him. Under normal circumstances I would have at least talked to him. So, dude, if you’re out there, don’t take it personally. It had nothing to do with you. I hope the rest of your night went well.

      *Yes, I have cats. Go ahead, yuck it up.
      **Can you tell that WIC shit pisses me off? Because it does.

      Like


      • Cat food and red Bull

        so that’s how you stay thin and on manage to put money aside in your nest egg!

        no but all joking aside

        maybe you could have told him something along the lines of

        ” sorry… I have a headache today, this is a bad hair day , maybe another time ? ”

        maybe he would have asked for your phone number ?

        Like


      • on November 29, 2012 at 7:08 pm RappaccinisDaughter

        Nah man, I had nothing. Literally nothing. All I could think about was getting home, putting on my gas fireplace, feeding my piglets, popping 2 Advils and zoning out to the most retarded thing I could find on TV. It didn’t even occur to me that he really wanted to talk to me until I was already home, doing those things, and feeling a little bit better.

        I just wanted to let y’all know that if you approach a woman and it fizzles, you really shouldn’t take it to heart. (Unless she pepper sprays you or calls the cops or something; in that case, you may want to rethink your strategy.)

        Like


      • feeding my piglets
        —What a horrible way to describe your lesbian friends.

        (Unless she pepper sprays you or calls the cops or something; in that case, you may want to rethink your strategy.)
        —Then you know she’s really into you.

        Next stop: Clown mask.

        Like


      • on November 29, 2012 at 7:44 pm RappaccinisDaughter

        Trust me, there’s nothing remotely porcine about my lesbian friends, whorefinder.

        Like


      • Yep. If he had caught you on a better day, when you were in a more social/energetic mood, etc. you two might be banging. It would be silly for him to take anything personally in that interaction…you don’t know anything ABOUT him, you couldn’t possibly be judging his worth as a person in a 30 second interaction.

        The other thing to consider is that a guy feeling out of it, who’s chatted up by a cute chick, will try a lot harder to get himself into the groove because it’s rare for most guys that a girl will chat them up. Whereas for a girl, it’s like “oh, sorry dude, not today…” because who cares, there’ll be another one just like him chatting you up on the bus home or on your Facebook wall later or on the way to work tomorrow or at work etc. etc. etc.

        So it can be hard for a guy to understand that you can just “have nothing” in a situation where if the roles were reversed they’d find some way to at least try to make it happen.

        Like


      • on November 29, 2012 at 7:41 pm RappaccinisDaughter

        I can tell you this, Ya…although there was nothing wrong with what he said to me, that if I’d been feeling better I’d have laughed and engaged with him, what would have worked much better would have been something like, “Hi, my name is xxx, do you like coffee? Because there’s a coffee place right nearby…” or whatever. Because then I wouldn’t have just blearily thought, “Oh, he’s bored, he’s just trying to pass the time, and he’s a stranger, and it’s not my job to entertain him. He can just stare at the cover of US Weekly the same as me.”
        Because, see, my first thought when someone talks to me isn’t, “He’s trying to pick me up.” I know perfectly well that I Ain’t All That, I’m maybe a 6 or a 7 if you’re feeling charitable.

        Like


      • @RappaccinisDaughter

        Hamster predictions, sorry. Being a regular at CH doesn’t mean you’re not as unaware what would work on you as any other woman who fills out the “how would you like a guy to approach you?” survey.

        No offense, that’s just how it is, and why we don’t take advice from women on how to pick up women.

        Like


      • on November 30, 2012 at 11:43 am RappaccinisDaughter

        Sigh. In my defense, I am at least trying to be helpful.

        I can tell you what has worked on me in the past, and it has universally been very direct and to the point. I’m actually quite introverted and shy in person, especially with strangers, and so unless you put your cards right out on the table, I’m going to assume that you’re not interested in me and just trying to be nice.

        Here’s one that worked:

        (On one of the few occasions I allowed myself to be dragged to a club)”Hi. My name is XXX. You look thirsty. I’m going to buy you a drink of water.”

        Like


      • Trust me, there’s nothing remotely porcine about my lesbian friends
        —-pics or GTFO.

        Like


    • @heartiste

      lol agreed. I just figured there’ll be enough “it’s better to ask about her purse!!” “no way man just whip out your dick and slap her across the face with it!!” back and forth in this thread that I’d offer up the over-arching principle for the intermediate+ guys to keep in mind. 🙂

      For a total noob, I’d say like you said, start indirect, and when you can handle that consistently, start dabbling with direct. Once you can handle both indirect and direct, you can start pushing some extremes and figure out exactly what is congruent for you and what amuses you. It’s like learning the rules so that you can start to break them.

      I think a lot of advanced guys get stuck on a plateau where they’re so attached to the external stuff that they don’t start that journey toward the internal which is an entire new journey that they didn’t even realize they’d have to go on. And a lot of women/white knight/Natural types don’t understand that a lot of guys learning Game aren’t just learning a couple lines, they’re doing complete overhauls of their psyches/beliefs/mindsets/behaviors/etc.

      This is why I feel bad for the guys who “try that Game thing out” for a few months and then give up and become rabid anti-gamers…they bought into the “say this one magic line and in a weekend you’ll go from a nerd to banging Playboy models!!” marketing and don’t understand that this is a YEARS+ long journey. Depending on how hard-case a newbie you are, you could spend the first year just fixing up your basic social interactions, let alone actually getting any pussy lol I didn’t hit my prime till probably my 3rd or 4th year Gaming, and even now I’m still breaking through new plateaus and trying new stuff out and streamlining my style.

      Like


    • Very well said, Yareally

      Like


  7. Openers are so fucking easy. It doesn’t matter what you say, and I would venture a guess that incoherent moaning with the right inflections would be enough to spark a girl’s interest (NOTE! Note field-tested). Girls want to be spoken to by you! If you feel good your words (or incoherent moaning) will convey that feeling to the lady in question.

    Like


  8. Let your words be indirect, while your smirk simultaneously reads I-wanna-lick-your-vag direct.

    Like


  9. Isn’t it possible to be both direct and indirect?

    Like you are being direct with body language (strong eye contact, good posture, etc.) while being indirect with your words (rambling grandpa).

    Honestly to me that seems to be the easy way to go…that way you don’t overthink what words you are trying to say.

    [heartiste: mixing signals is an effective form of game. you can go direct BL with indirect verbal, or indirect BL (i.e., “rocking”, glancing away, backturns) with direct verbal. Traditional game though, tends to be more consistently indirect in both BL and verbal.]

    Like


    • Interesting thing that accidentally worked was a stupid drunken direct opener “hey, video games.” to girl. She engaged, “what you mean like Lana del ray?” in an interested manner. Me: “oh what, nevermind” turning off all interest worked better than I had realized. But being drunk idiot, she did look like lana but I convinced myself she didn’t. She even accused me of being pua.

      Like


    • This is essentially what most guys do when they attempt to be indirect, they are indirect with their words (“How do you get to Starbucks?”) but then they are very direct with their body language–mainly eye contact and body orientation. They face her and give her lots of eye contact, looking at her continuously, as if they’ve just spotted a rare bird. From my experience, instead of combining the best of both worlds, this combines the worst.

      When you’re direct, it shows balls. The drawback is that you are betraying a lot of interest, which lowers your value and makes you seem like less of a challenge. When you combine an indirect verbal opener with direct body language, you betray interest but don’t show any balls at all.

      Once you’re in the interaction with her, you can start to show more interest physically, once she’s earned it. You can be more sexual with your eye contact, etc. But if you’re going to open indirect, then be indirect. Don’t betray too much interest. Act like she just happened to be there and so you said something to her. If you’re going to walk across a room/park just to talk to her, then show some balls. Go direct.

      Like


      • Agreed good sir. I feel if you are going direct, you gotta go full throttle manly and avoid anything cutesy. Or else the nauseating “Aww you’re sweet but I have a boyfriend” speech is guaranteed, which I guess is the “cute/flippant gambit.”

        That being said, I prefer more indirect with a little ballsy direct weaved in when the time is right 🙂

        Like


  10. I’m with Hook or Crook there, just feels so ridiculous to talk about some BS when you both know what this conversation is really about.
    I don’t know if I agree to Heartiste’s reasoning why direct openers are inferior to indirect. Yes you show to her that you value her, but you also show her that you’re not afraid of your own sexuality and that you have balls. Direct game takes more balls than indirect “who lies more” stuff. It’s also less of a waste of time. Girls are naive and talk to you for two hours straight even when they’re not sexually interested in you because they think all you want to have is an interesting conversation.
    Maybe my view is different because I’m from Europe and Roosh already said direct game seems to be tailored to European Street Game. European Club Game works the same way I think, your intentions are even more obvious when you open a girl in a club and it would seem ridiculous to talk about your grandpa.

    Like


    • I tend to agree with this, but only if your direct game is “I am striking up a conversation in order to determine if you are up to my standards” and not “I am trying to talk to you so that you will have sex with me.”

      Like


  11. Stare at them and then ask them: “do you have any black in you?”

    Like


    • Just curious: Do you EVER think of anything else?

      Like


      • Ha ha ….he likes to make sure we’re still on target should any one of us begins thinking about other “less important” stuff. What could be more import than race, eh?

        Like


      • A bit off-topic from thwack’s race speak, 63 babies born for every 1,000 women in the USA. Lowest birth rate in history. And probably the lion’s share of these babies were born to Blacks, Hispanics, and Muslims, who usually have lots of children, either out of wedlock or within “blessed” matrimony. It’s probably even lower in Europe. Decay and extinction of Whites.

        30 years ago the number was 122 babies for every 1,000 women, which was low as is, considering what it is in African, Islamic, and Latin countries. Now we’re down to half of that. Sure, it was bound to happen when gay sex and feminism became the norm and anything traditional is seen as primitive.

        Like


      • OK Lily, I’ll deal with you the same way I deal with them militant nigs at the black power meetings on the college campus that complain ‘not enough white people are being killed!”

        So Lily, how many white babies have YOU produced?

        Like


      • So what do you ask them, ‘how many Whites did you kill today, this week, month, or year to date?’ Extremely stimulating your conversation are, eh? What do you think they would say if a white blonde girl came with you to those high-powered meetings?

        Like


      • So that is what you people do at those community organizing meetings.

        Now I understand where Obama comes from!

        Like


      • “Now I understand where Obama comes from!”

        From those “high-power” meetings and community agitation seminars. Now he’s agitating the country and irritating all of us.

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      • CF, Lily, do you not get it?

        I was making the comparison between the loud mouth black militant (who ain’t killed no white people) suggesting more white people need to be killed.

        And the loud mouth racist white woman (who ain’t produced no white babies) suggesting white women produce more babies.

        In both cases each person is projecting their lack of ACTION to solve a problem onto other people.

        Its silly and I call people on it when I see it.

        Don’t be callin for some work you aint willing to do yourself.

        Like


      • It’s not fair holding her to that standard, thwack.

        When NiteLily found out I was already spoken for, she took a vow of chastity.

        Like


      • Oh, I know what you were getting at. But it’s a bad analogy.

        How is telling white women to produce babies a racist thing to say? What exactly is racist about it? On the other hand, encouraging Blacks to kill whites IS a racist thing to do. There is no compassion here. You can say I am a hypocrite, but you can’t say both of these statements are equally racists. That’s just wrong.

        “Don’t be callin for some work you aint willing to do yourself.”

        How are you sure I am not willing to do myself? You assume too much.

        Like


      • “When NiteLily found out I was already spoken for, she took a vow of chastity.”

        Hey, there is always polygamy.

        Your wife might be happy to get you off her back for a while. Did you think about getting a full-time concubine at the farm? Might do you some good and keep you busy.

        Like


      • Now I see what Greg was talking about; Nitelily is a female and females can’t understand logic. They just can’t get the logic, the relationship between two things, the principle…

        The principle wasn’t about racism, but about people who tell other people to do things they themselves won’t/don’t do.

        It happens all the time and you gotta call people on it; especially the most militant blowhards like chickbilliy.

        (((shakin my head)))

        Like


      • Wrong, you used the racist word in your reply to me, which implies you thought my comment is as racist as the guys in the hood.

        “I was making the comparison between the loud mouth black militant”
        And
        “And the loud mouth racist white woman”

        From your own words, you were making the comparison between the loud mouth black militant and the loud mouth racist white woman. That’s what I am getting at. You are making an analogy between them, yet one is a racist for wanting to kill more whites, and the other is not for wanting more women to have children.

        What I am getting at is that one should be precise in their wording. You can’t throw the racist card all the time when it doesn’t apply. As I said, you can say I am a hypocrite for supposedly not doing what I preach, but not a racist.

        Your analogy is false. Just sayin’.

        Like


      • NiteLily
        What do you think they would say if a white blonde girl came with you to those high-powered meetings?
        ———————-
        One nigger stopped me in the lobby and threatened to hang me from a tree if I ever did it again (but he didn’t say shit to the white woman cause niggers are scared of white people)

        Like


      • on November 30, 2012 at 2:49 am Hugh G. Rection

        Well we’ve done our part. Now it’s the other guys’ turn.

        Like


      • Yes, ropes, trees….

        Like


      • Yes, ropes, trees….

        You know you could also tie a woman to a tree ( not from ) if she is into that sort of kinky stuff

        maybe it would satisfy your arboristic obsession and untie the knot in you ?

        ( I am trying to make clever plays on words in a second language…)

        Like


      • Carnac: “Knot, knot, and knot”.

        McMahon: “Knot, knot, and… knot.”

        (opens envelope)
        Carnac: “Things you would find in a rope, a tree… and thwack’s head.”

        Like


    • Stare at them and then ask them: “do you have any black in you?”

      More importantly,

      ” the black in you, was he wearing a condom ?”

      Like


      • you guys think its silly, but people want to go to the edge; especially if there is a strong/aloof man to lead the way and show them what they thought was some deep dark Greg Eliot scary fucking abyss; is really just a shallow trench filled with skittles.

        “why so serious Batman?”

        Like


      • Why I gotta take the heat for chasms?

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      • Thwack

        why would I need to ask if a woman has some ” black in her” , African DNA or whatever you want to call it?

        if she has enough for it to matter , it will be visible. no need to ask

        Unless there is something I am missing in your comment?

        Like


      • Dude, thats an “opener”; but the key is you hafta spend some time looking hard at her face before you ask the question.

        “why would I need to ask”

        Man, thats the game! You are playing her, thats your job! You are playing her in a way she has never been played before. Matter of fact, the whiter the girl the better.

        Now Im black, so the answer you get may vary; but its been my experience that white girls either answer no, or try to use the “native American” thingy.

        Now at this point, there are several ways you can take the conversation but you hafta know where you are going because everybody else is watching and not saying anything; waiting to see where the fuck you are going with this.

        You started it. You gotta end it, even if it means getting the grin slapped off your face.

        Like


      • You started it. You gotta end it, even if it means getting the grin slapped off your face.

        If yo’ mama had slapped the black off you, like she threatened so many times, you’d be White Like Me.

        (see what I did there?)

        Like


      • The Canadian’s a little slow. There’s an Asperger’s epidemic going on up there. Something about tragically low vitamin D levels.

        Like


      • I thought your comment was about racist men who would refuse to have anything to do with a woman simply because she would have some black DNA in her

        that is why I said if it is visible that is all that matters, if a man does not like mullatos all he has to do is open his eyes.

        There are so many flame wars here about race ( guilty ! ) that I thought this comment was all about race and racists

        Like


      • Canadian Friend
        I thought your comment was about racist men who would refuse to have anything to do with a woman simply because she would have some black DNA in her
        ——————–

        OK, I see how YOU could think that. But remember, if she’s white, she has no idea where you are going with this, especially if your body language is showing interest and she is hot. You are generating a mass of conflicting emotions in her.

        She doesn’t know if its an insult or a compliment because its whatever the hell you decide it is…

        Its really just an opener but your own guilty concious is fucking you up.

        Stop thinking about about trees and rope and just focus on the pussy.

        Like


      • Making a white woman feel guilty she has no black DNA – an easy thing to do in this brainwashed by the left sick society – may get you some “pity sex“ I suppose…

        she will suck your dick to make it up for the unfair white privilge she enjoys

        tell her your ancestors died working their ass off as slaves for some evil white American and she may let you sodomize her so guilty she will feel!

        / sarcasm
        / cynism
        / satire

        Like


      • Hey nigs, how’s that study of the English language going?

        Like


      • you should change your name to nigfinder.

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      • Do you know how to look up words yet, boy? Or do you just let rappers tell you the slang, and then claim no other words exist?

        Like


  12. Stupid question:

    Does “elderly opener” mean rambling on like an old person about something in thyour e shared environment? Or is it something else entirely?

    [Heartiste: I believe Roosh gives an example of talking to a girl about a pen she is holding.]

    Like


    • It refers to the former. Imagine a time you were out somewhere using a piece of technology and an old man came up to you and started asking you about it (seemingly genuinely intrigued) and that convo ended up leading to something else.

      Or if you’re at the gym banging out weighted chin-ups and an old guy comes up to you and asks you how you’re able to do it, how you started, that he’s impressed, and you to end up sharing stories.

      In both cases you didn’t have your guard up because the old man came off as innocent and his opener seemed innocent and pertinent enough to what you were doing.

      That’s a rough sketch. For a better version I’d recommend Roosh’s Day Bang as he provides great examples and logistics that cover this.

      -No affiliation with Roosh.

      Like


      • Funny you mention the old dude in the gym. I’ve had old guys ask me about exercises and we end up chatting. I also worked in a nursing home for a time and a lot of conversations were started by what was going on in the environment.

        There must be something about getting older where you will talk to anybody and everybody.

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      • Yep, but I think its more experience than age. In my case I think its related to my work. I talk to strangers all the time, have them cry in my presence sometimes. If I feel at all nervous talking to a girl, I’ll just go into my “work” mode and it seems to work fine.

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      • Ya it’s prob one of those things that you’ve done it so much so you don’t fear it. Also, the older you get the more wisdom you have. Easier to talk to people when you’ve seen a lot of shit and know more than them.

        Basically, what thwack says below.

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      • There are also a lot of old gay guys at gyms.

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    • Jason, go get a job working for an old retired person and you will understand “elderly opener”.

      For retired people, everyday is like Sunday. They are simply never in a hurry and you hafta adjust your sense of time when you deal with them. Every guy should spend some time working for an 85 year old white man.

      Why?

      Cause that cracker has seen everything and done everything. The one I worked for even told me he killed someone by accident; told me the whole story. Half my job just discussing “stuff” and listening to his exploits.

      Like


  13. Fatal Flaw 1a with this ‘study’ – be it from the 80’s, 90’s 00’s or 1367:
    Women self-reporting = 100% bullshit.

    Like


  14. Fascinating stuff. I have no reason to doubt the results, and I really do cringe upon hearing a “cute” line. Granted, it might be only because the vast majority of them are just extremely corny and not funny at all, but it’s probably not just bias. It’s just difficult to craft such a line that would work well..

    The worst I’ve ever heard of is “Your dad must be a terrorist because you’re a real bomb!”

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  15. Roosh.

    Like


  16. When women say romance them, they really say, “Lie to me!”

    Or, more accurately, “Tell me a story, Daddy….I want to believe.”

    It’s how magicians get laid, despite being dorky tools. The entire mysticism surrounding their patter is gold dust to women.

    Like


  17. I’m sticking to direct. Indirect is for the artsy hippie type. I’m a borderline caveman inside and out.

    And all the self-proclaimed paleos should do the same.

    Like


  18. Off-topic, but holy hell. Check out the white knight white guy (with beard, of course) and the girl next to him with a sign that spells the word “womyn”.

    Odds that this “incidence of hate speech” was a hoax?

    Like


  19. Is “Can I buy you a drink?” really all that bad for an opener? If she accepts, you have the chance to chat her up. If she refuses, you save time and money.

    Like


    • Nah…can be good. Order her a shirley temple first and tell her that if she handles that she can move up to the grown up drinks…all with smirk. If she punches back, good good.

      Order up vodka shots, tease more.

      Like


  20. […] A reader sent along a link to a study which attempted to clarify which kinds of approach “openers” (pickup lines or greetings) worked best on women. The science, while far from conclusive (results were based on women’s self-reported preferences, so usual caveats apply), is finally having a say in this eternal debate between direct and indirect game advocates. Funny enough, the actual study was done in the ’80s. A lot of great, illuminating stuff about human nature gets forgotten, especially when the zeitgeist is so suffocatingly PC. Women prefer innocuous opening lines vs direct or clever lines. Men prefer women to be direct. Via Scott Barry Kaufman: In the ’80s, Chris Kleinke and colleagues analyzed the effectiveness of 100  pick-up lines across a number of different settings, including bars, supermarkets, restaurants, laundromats, and beaches. They found three main categories of openers: direct gambits, which are honest and get right to the point (e.g, “I’m sort of shy, but I’d like to get to know you“), innocuous gambits, which hide a person’s true intentions (“e.g., “What do you think of this band?“), and cute/flippant gambits, which involve humor, but often in a cheesy, canned way (e.g., ”Do you have any raisins? No? Well then, how about a date?“.)* Both men and women agreed that cute/flippant pick-up lines were the least Source: Chateau Heartiste   […]

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  21. I was out with some buddies once, dressed in an old ratty t-shirt, old jean shorts and flip flops…. I looked like hell. A beautiful girl walked in, and I am usually one for the indirect opener, but I looked so rough I said fuck it and went in for the direct approach, expecting to be shot down. I got her number and dated her for six months! I am pretty sure my attitude was what made her overlook my crappy outfit and go out with me.

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  22. OT, but HEARTISTE!

    Can’t wait to see what you come up with based on this:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50135408n

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  23. Something you should know: women are NOT “less visual” than men. In fact, men focus on women’s faces more when watching porn, while women focus more on clothing, background, and genitals.

    http://www.lehmiller.com/blog/2012/6/18/what-do-men-and-women-focus-on-when-they-watch-porn-the-answ.html

    [Heartiste: In a psychosexual context, visual doesn’t mean what you think it means. Men focus on women’s physcial beauty while women focus on context and fashion and other things that might indicate a man’s status.]

    Like


    • ‘Visual’ for men means ‘She’s hot/cute’.
      For women, it means ‘He’s TALL, looks like my favorite soap star, is younger than 30/me and my ‘female intuition’ tells me he’s got moolah’.
      (‘Female intuition’ = jumping to conclusions based on false assumptions)

      Like


  24. I know I’m not the target audience but I really enjoy the economic/psychological insights on this site. From a girl’s perspective, I usually dislike a direct approach because it’s too high-pressure: you’re showing your hand and forcing her to make an on-the-spot decision as to whether she’s receptive, making it awkward for both of you if the answer is no. And since I have a boyfriend, I’m always going to shut down a direct approach but I wouldn’t be rude to someone just starting a conversation Whereas an indirect approach enables you to size up the situation and more gracefully extricate yourself if the girl is unavailable or uninterested.

    Like


    • on December 1, 2012 at 1:50 am WalMart Whale Fetishist

      yer a nice but useless girl who’s riding the cock carousel, your BF is fucking two other chicks and will never marry you. and u need lose some weight. so hoo cares if you blow me out.

      Like


  25. on November 30, 2012 at 4:31 am Hopeless Romantic

    “Heartiste: In a psychosexual context, visual doesn’t mean what you think it means. Men focus on women’s physcial beauty while women focus on context and fashion and other things that might indicate a man’s status.”

    Like genital size….

    [Heartiste: Nope. A man’s crotch is just one criteria (and a small one at that, compared to others) which women evaluate when sizing up a man. Crotch bulge arouses directly, but the overall attractiveness of a man to women hinges on a much broader range of traits, physical and non-physical, than the overall attractiveness of a woman does to men. This is what we mean when we say men are more “visual” than women; men’s desire to sleep with any one woman is almost entirely a function of how she looks. In contrast, women’s desire to sleep with any one man is a function of many variables, including status signals and personality and attitude. So you shouldn’t take the term of art “more visual” so literally.

    Btw, here’s a study which found that men look at a hot babe’s tits 37% more than women do, while the women check out her engagement ring more than the men do. Yet more evidence that men are “more visual” and less contextual than are women.

    http://miratech.com/blog/eye-tracking-men-are-pervs2.html%5D

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  26. Do guys really have to overanalyze interactions this much to pick up women? Not trying to be insulting but I genuinely never realized that guys do this.

    [Heartiste: It’s all relative. You seriously expect anyone here to believe women don’t overanalyze their interactions with men with ten times more gusto than men do their interactions with women? Anyhow, to your point: women are, in fact, more complicated mating machines, and thus require more study to operate at maximum efficiency.]

    Like


    • Of course women do it tens time more! I just didn’t know that men do it this much too. I had always thought that men were more relaxed and spontaneous about picking up women.
      And also,
      If you’re strategizing how to appear ‘aloof’ and ‘uncaring,’ isn’t that the extreme opposite of being aloof and uncaring? I’m attracted to a man who doesn’t care about what I think of him, but extremely turned off by the thought of a guy that cares so much that he’s pretending not to care. Does that make sense? I like to feel that I am the one trying to impress the man enough to make him want me, I used to hate it if a guy was the one trying to impress me.

      Like


      • That’s called the cock carousel, honey.

        Like


      • WW:
        Selection bias. The only ones you notice are spontaneous and relaxed about it. The rest are furniture because they’re not coming up to talk with you or you write them off right away.

        Like


    • on December 1, 2012 at 9:55 pm driveallnight

      “What do you think he meant by that??”

      The words that have launched a kajillion hamsterfests. It’s like the national anthem before a ballgame.

      Like


  27. “Can I buy you a drink?” is the worst opener ever! You are just setting yourself up to pay for everything not to mention asking permission for something right out of the gate is not really showing much authority. The whole buying drinks thing is bad news. I swoop in right after she’s bought her drink just so I DON’T have to buy her a drink.

    Set the bar low and don’t do anything to raise it. – Tom Leykis

    Like


  28. GBFM is sort of like James Joyce, except I’m not sure he has the right stuff. The best parody of James Joyce that I know of is George Singleton’s novel ‘Novel’. He lives near me in Dacusville, SC.

    Like


  29. i go indirect to get a laugh, then i escalate. my favorite is “if you keep laughing like that you might end up pregnant.”

    never had it fail.

    Like


  30. “direct openers should be part of your arsenal even if they aren’t the most broadly effective, because there will be times when indirect openers are ridiculous and self-defeating.”

    Cans someone tell me when using indirect openers is ridiculous and self defeating ? I’m a total newb

    Like


  31. What does it mean, which one is “best?”

    Surely it depends more on who is doing the opening, their vibe and subcommunications, than what is being said!

    Having said that I think you just need some basic calibration:

    Direct : street / nightclub
    Indirect – direct – department store
    indirect – direct – bar

    Where most guys go wrong is they get caught up in the words. The words are only a small part of it. It’s the subcommunications and vibe that you’re being “judged” on.

    The other criteria I would say is super important is how real it seems, to you and her. If you mean what you say when you open, then it’s better than some pre – rehearsed line that you’ve been saying all day long. That’s where I think clever lines fall down, usually they are super cheesy and they sound rehearsed. (I also think that’s why you’re falling into a trap of trying to “pass” shit tests with clever comebacks. What position are you coming from if you have to put that much thought into it??

    Who writes these studies anyway and do they have experience of doing it themselves? I really dont respect game theorists, they have no clue what they are talking about. Ditto surveys (as you say Chateau they don’t know what they think anyway)

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  32. The study is obviously worthless. OF COURSE girls are going to say they prefer indirect openers. They have their ASD on when they’re answering the survey questions, just as they do at all other times.

    Heartiste wrote this: Or it could simply be that direct openers automatically and instantaneously, by transparently communicating a man’s desire, lower his value vis-á-vis the girl he is hitting on

    Nonsense. Showing a sack of balls will do the very opposite of lower your value vis a vis the girl you’re hitting on. Again, you can’t be a nervous wreck.. When you go direct, the aloof, devil may care shit eating grin must remain on your face at all times. The world is easy. The world is yours. You communicate to her that you’d like to take her out tonight, and your body language and tone of voice communites that you really aren’t sweating her answer either way.

    The fact of the matter is this: when you go indirect, the girl knows what’s up. Your desire is being communicated just as it when you go indreict.. But what is also being communicated is that you don’t have a sack of balls.

    Fortune favors the bold. Go direct.

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  33. The study is obviously worthless. OF COURSE girls are going to say they prefer indirect openers. Girls would feel like sluts if they said they were more responsive to direct game. And girls never want to feel like sluts, even on an anonymous survey.

    Heartiste wrote this:
    Or it could simply be that direct openers automatically and instantaneously, by transparently communicating a man’s desire, lower his value vis-á-vis the girl he is hitting on

    Nonsense.

    Showing a sack of balls will do the very opposite of lower your value vis a vis the girl you’re hitting on. When you go direct, the aloof, devil may care shit eating grin must remain on your face at all times. The world is easy. The world is yours. You communicate to her that you’d like to take her out tonight, and your body language and tone of voice communites that you really aren’t sweating her answer either way.

    The fact of the matter is this: when you go indirect, the girl knows what’s up. Your desire is being communicated just as it when you go dreict.. But what is also being communicated is that you don’t have a sack of balls.

    Fortune favors the bold. Be Bold. Go direct.

    Like


  34. […] guys for either sex or relationships. More Science: The dark triad gets girls. More Science: Which openers work. More Science: Sex and […]

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