Field Report: The Dushka And The Cougar

Reader BuenaVista apprises,

From the Field:

So, in WashDC there’s a fairly prominent meat market for the middle-aged and well-suited: the place lawyers, senators, TV talking heads, CEOs lobbyists go in their ill-fitting suits to hustle women. It’s called Cafe Milano. The dynamics are like any Beverly Hills cafe of similar stripe, only it’s DC: DC is Hollywood for ugly people. Young women from the age of 20 up through women pushing 50 are in this place. Later in the evening it often gets quite insane when all the working men go home and the place fills up with Middle Eastern men chasing shiksa tail.

This is where I went last night to experiment with the difference between “high energy” and laconic “low energy.” I had a date so I went half an hour early for my experiment.

I was the only guy in the place not wearing a tie or sport coat; I had on a flight jacket, black sweater, jeans, Guccis, no socks.

I’m not funny, when ad hoc, in most instances, unless “irony” counts as funny — and it usually doesn’t. So I resolved to just smile, speak up, raise my eyebrows, and engage — i.e., the opposite of laconic pilot leaning against bar waiting to be chosen. In the first five minutes I looked straight at the Russian girl serving a full bar and quickly entered a five-minute conversation about the merits of American rye, how long she’s been in the country, what she drinks at home, and how funny is this shit with all these fat guys hustling Georgetown girls.

That last part is your best game. Knocking the pretension of other men is a time-honored technique for raising your own value.

I would say I was looking directly at her, only smiling to punctuate, listening, querying, listening, commenting. The bar was busy but she talked to me. I would estimate that she is 25 years younger than I am. She served me and my eventual date well all night and slipped us a couple freebie bottles of sparkling mineral water.

The next person I spoke to was a 45 year-old in a Chanel suit, cheekbones like Charlotte Rampling, a German accent, and a firm bust and small waist that means: Yoga every single day. This was a divorcee of some apparent means. In the past I just leave these women alone and they either open me (life was better when a woman could ask for a light in a bar, at least it was better for introverted me) or I didn’t talk to them. I turned, smiled briefly, complimented her on her suit,

A good neg here would have been “That’s a nice power suit you’re wearing.”

asked her if she had just come from an event of some sort, smiled, queried, commented, smiled, queried. I asked her what she would like to drink and ordered her glass of wine for her from the Russian. She name-dropped her summer place, I’ve been there many times, which school her son attends, blah blah blah. I don’t think I have done something like that more than five times in my life. As *her* date entered and was coming to grab her, I slipped her my card and she gave me a look that, perhaps unrealistically, said, “I just might follow up on this.” I didn’t get her number because I didn’t have time once her lawyer/lobbyist/whatever showed up.

She’s 45 years old. The odds that she’ll follow up by taking the initiative and calling you are far better than if she were her 25 year old self. The fear of the Wall has a way of focusing minds and opening legs.

Question: is “high energy” reducible to: choosing to open, managing the rhythm of the conversation and keeping it moving moving moving with a focus on her her her, not slobbering all over her looks, treating her more like the au pair than the princess the au pair works for. I mean, I can do this. This is little different than opening a potential business contact, male or female, on a long flight someplace.

High energy means you lead the conversation and don’t give her a chance to frame the interaction to her liking. Well, it means that, among other meanings. It doesn’t necessarily mean that you “focus on her her her”. You can be high energy and just shooting the shit about anything.

Or is it really this: halfway through the evening another software ceo, very successful guy, very notorious for his harems and runins with the SEC, was holding court with his usual gaggle of staff and the groupies the ceo always has about. Then he stood up (he’s kind of a short guy with a plain face, but he’s worth $500mm) shouting about some shit I couldn’t understand and his group started roaring. I’m never doing this: I think he’s a buffoon, albeit one with a net worth I’ll likely never approach.

Half Billion CEO dude is already preselected. He DHVs just walking into a roomful of people who are familiar with the local business scene. A guy like him could go high or low energy, it wouldn’t matter. His army of lackeys at the ready to laugh at his dumb jokes is all the game he needs.

Or, if it requires R. Brand levels of realtime wit and invention, forget it. I will never attempt that.

Any comments appreciated.

(See, Ya Really, I do actually go out.)

Low energy isn’t the same as being a wallflower. High energy isn’t the same as being an interrogator. Either method, you’re interacting with the express purpose of pushing it toward a carnal conclusion. The difference is how much dead air or dud utterances you’re willing to risk. Low energy is sexy, but vulnerable to competing distractions. High energy is captivating, but vulnerable to self-sabotage. I’d say if you’re hitting on hired dushkas or wealthy cougars, go lower energy. You might even gain points for establishing a contrast between yourself and the cackling suck-ups slobbering Half Bil’s knob.


  1. See, the question about ‘high energy’ tips your hand. You, and a lot of people on the board, have the wrong idea about it.

    Focus on her? Lol NO. Think of it like this —- at one end of the room is a door. This door represents her spreading her legs for you. At the other end — there’s you. Between? A bajillion shit test landmines. Cool-guy laconic game is for those who get directed through the minefield — just don’t fuck anything up and set yourself off course. High energy game is for guys who just drive a goddamned explosion-proof tank over every last mine.

    By not shutting the fuck up, you’re putting yourself in a wide range of congruence spots and opening up your own opportunities. Say something offensive? Better hold that frame — it’ll get tingles. Say something that would embarrass a normal person? Hold the frame — it’ll get tingles.

    When you do it right you will hear:
    “You’re just one of those people who does whatever they want, huh?”
    “…it’s so weird, I don’t want you to take this the wrong way, but like….you kind of make me feel inferior.” (ya, trust)
    “Where does all of this COME FROM?”
    “I can’t believe you just said that omgeeee!”
    “You’re so fucked up!”
    “That’s so crazy!”


    • Newsflash: objection: elegant, privileged women do not shit-test like regular women or wives. They don’t. They evaluate silently, and they’re good at it. They never say anything like your last sample quotes.

      We’re talking about people who haven’t flown commercial in 10 years.

      [CH: doesn’t matter. a woman’s real world value is tied up entirely in her looks, which is broadly a function of her age. she may *perceive* herself as having high smv due to her money and lifestyle, but that perception is paper thin. easily shredded.]

      If she’s in a Chanel suit on Wednesday in a bar, a block off M Street, trust me, she’s either psycho or the real deal. In both cases, no shit-tests. None of this is probably useful for this blog because I’m so much older. The shit-tests with this kind of woman come later, well into a relationship, and they are indirect and deadly if misunderstood. We can deal with them another time.

      Anyway, I really appreciate the comment, because I am inherently the laconic, observant sort — except when I am at work doing my make-it-happen thing. There seems to be a lot of crossover in the make-it-happen, which is really just high energy flattery and discovery, with the social challenge of being a man in full in public.

      My sense is that highly privileged females, when they fall, they fall all the way to to pool man. What does this mean? They want to be treated like a normal person. I was trying to treat both of them as, essentially, co-workers, as I would any woman in a professional context.

      I think my take-away from your comment is “Own the conversation, and don’t make it about yourself.” Am I correct?


      • I just googled Milano. I think you may be giving it too much cred. And the level of quality in DC doesn’t compare to NY/LA/Miami. Different universes.


      • I’m glad you Googled it. I’ve lived and worked in DC for 25 years, in industry, government, and the gray area that no one can figure out. I described it accurately.

        What I’m clueless about is what is ‘high energy’ game, if one lacks the insane genius of Russell Brand or Eddie Van Halen. Because I can’t play Hot for Teacher like Eddie Van Halen.

        I appreciate all comments not referencing a Google search.


      • eddie van halen reference? nice 1 gramps


      • on October 24, 2013 at 9:14 pm haunted trilobite

        he was the drake of his day for all you beliebers


      • Lol….Diamond David Lee Roth is also a pretty good example of high energy game. He has plenty to say, but he never comes off as qualifying himself. He’s actually pretty chill:


      • nowadays he looks like an old black woman. LOL


      • Lol 2:20 – 2:50 is such a great rant. “I got class.” This would be a pretty good DHV routine one-on-one.


      • Hands down one of the most legit joos ever.


      • on October 25, 2013 at 6:07 am Lucky White Male

        You should stick with Low Energy Game. You said you are an Introvert. You sound very intelligent. You also appear to be sophisticated. I see from your recently added photo icon (balls of steel for showing your face), that you are (not gay) a handsome looking “fella” in that laid-back, Nantucket WASP way

        These are all plusses in the Low Energy column. You should play to your strengths and amplify them. You do not have to be a Russell Brand, because you don’t need to be

        You are probably most masculine/dominant in the sphere of Low Energy not High Energy, and this is what broads are looking for: you masculinity, your dominance

        By the way, it seems like you are pushing your comfort zone by going out there an experimenting. More commenters should be trying the things we discuss on CH and reporting back, instead of the keyboard jockey bullshit

        So congrats on that.


      • on October 25, 2013 at 7:30 am RappaccinisDaughter

        Ha ha ha, Milano was the spot where the dude laid the old “small tits, childbearing hips” line on me. That’s part of what shocked me so much—people there just don’t DO that.


      • So, you two live in the same area?!?! You could lure him into your garden!!! 🙂


      • Da fuq? You live in DC? And yet you say you pack a pistol everywhere? Not too bright… you will get pinched for that sooner or later.


      • With luck you aren’t the girl I IED’d myself before at a certain second-floor wine bar up the street last summer. That was not a graceful death.

        Jay is right, I carry but *never* in DC or NY. They are ruthless. Presumably you are referencing NoVA.


      • Indeed they don’t. But as I wrote, and as Jay agrees below, it’s a sort of pretentious and status-whorey place. Even in Georgetown, where I rarely ever go, there are much better places.


      • Yeah, several of my family members have CCW permits but none of them carry in DC. The risk of getting strung up by the feds is much worse than the risk of whatever you’re trying to protect yourself from. That’s crazy.


      • on October 25, 2013 at 11:17 am RappaccinisDaughter

        I live in the Virginia ‘burbs of DC, where my guns and my carry permit are perfectly legal. It’s a $20 cab ride to M street. For the record, no, I don’t carry inside the city limits because felony. That’s why I limit my forays to Georgetown and Dupont Circle…and I don’t drive. Cab straight in and back out again.


      • I am in the Maryland ‘burbs of DC, work downtown, get out to VA fairly often. The non-DC residents in the area tend to split into two hostile and mutually-incomprehending camps, divided by the Potomac river. Politics has something to do with that- red state vs blue state. Also that there’s not much need to drive to another suburb which would have exactly the same kinds of malls and chains stores. But really, they’re pretty similar. Except for the carrying-a-gun thing.


      • on October 25, 2013 at 12:24 pm RappaccinisDaughter

        “With luck you aren’t the girl I IED’d myself before at a certain second-floor wine bar up the street last summer.”

        What did she look like?


      • Pre-Raphaelite long dark red tresses, 5’10 or so, wearing black, early/mid-30’s. Reading at the bar late afternoon. Place deserted. I concluded we were fated to meet. Didn’t work out that way.


      • on October 25, 2013 at 2:58 pm RappaccinisDaughter

        Nope, wasn’t me.


      • No, he is 100% on point. I’ve been to that place three times in my life and that was two too many. You walk in and are just hit with this wave of tangible pretentiousness. And the two times I found myself there for dates were with a lawyer (shocker!), who was just what you’d expect. She was hot as shit, early 30s and is quite googleable as I later found out. She settled some huge lawsuits in the airline industry and was stacking mountains of paper. She was name dropping and DHVing with her accomplishments. But at the end of the day, just like BV said, I was having difficulty focusing on her because of the cute waitress serving us. That is the secret fear they all know about but will try to crush down into a lockbox of repression.

        The second time was with a much more normal date, so I thought, but she just launched into this bizarre diatribe about how she hated dogs and was pissed that her ex-boyfriend wouldn’t give his dog away for her. You can’t make this shit up. Then she started shredding his interior design tastes and typical DC entitlement slut shit. “Check please”.

        The third time was with a normal girl and we simply didn’t fit in to that whole scene which I have kept myself away from because of the utter contempt I have politicos and their sycophants who are running this ship against the reef.


      • Own the conversation and make it about yourself. Whatever YOU want to talk about, you will talk about. And everything you say is the fucking shit. That’s high energy game.


      • > “Newsflash: objection: elegant, privileged women do not shit-test like regular women or wives. They don’t. They evaluate silently, and they’re good at it.”

        Is this place some sort of a “quiet” bar?

        Because I haven’t been to a public place in forever where you could actually have an honest-to-goodness conversation with a chick and have any hope of hearing what she was saying [unless maybe you were a lip reader].

        At least not a public place which was serving alcohol.

        I’ve been told that restaurants actually jack up the “music” [really the noise] to hurry people out the door and to maximize turnover – they don’t want tables of people just sitting around for hours and conversing and not generating any revenue.

        It’s one of the reasons that I’m such a huge fan of what they call “day game” – getting out and meeting chicks in real life and chatting them up in normal conversations, without having the background noise of Kim Kardashian’s Baby Daddy screaming tribal war-chants in your ear at 120 dB.


      • ZS, I would say its fairly noisy, but it’s a kind of professional mixing place, too, so they have to keep the noise low enough so that guys can get something done. If a club is 120db, this would be 50-60, I think.

        Incidentally, I do have a 25% hearing loss (flying, motorcycles, oil rigs) so a place like this bar is just about as noisy as I can manage, and I do lip-read. But this can be a good thing because it forces me to engage visually in a very direct way, and pull a woman closer to me.

        I’m attempting a lot of day game as well and jesus, stressful much? But my old strategy — online — doesn’t work very well now because I don’t lie about my age and no one believes my pictures are current. So when I cold-approach someone they evaluate me on appearance rather than the number.


      • > “a place like this bar is just about as noisy as I can manage”

        So in a situation like you were in with Chanel-babe, where you’re waiting for your date, and she’s waiting for her date, then it seems to me that a really good line would be the honest one: “Let’s hook up some time in a joint that’s a little quieter and where we can have an actual conversation with one another.”

        Of course, then the hard part is going to be finding a joint that really is quieter.

        In the summertime, you can always go for the picnic lunch in the park – with a bottle of wine [maybe two bottles of wine], some wine glasses, and the all-important cork screw – never forget the cork screw!

        At this time of the year, as it’s starting to get really cold, tailgating at an important football game could be a lot of fun.

        Or something really snobbish, like a big NCAA lacrosse game.

        > “day game… stressful…”

        Okay, that I don’t understand.

        I guess I don’t have anything to add there unless I knew more about what you were getting at.

        Bonus Thought: For someone like Chanel-babe, you could have a lot of fun doing opposition research, by going either to an actual Chanel store, or to the cosmetics counter at an upscale department store, like Nordstrom.

        In my experience, cosmetics counter gals are a blast to talk to, especially if they know that you’re looking for insights into what makes a woman tick.

        And there again, you can just be honest: “I met this really sophisticated chick, who likes Chanel, and I’m taking her to the Johns Hopkins – Syracuse lacrosse game this weekend, and I need you to tell me everything you know about Chanel babes and how to deal with them.”

        Just remember that when you chat up cosmetics counter gals, you can’t be trying to interest them in the finer points of Quantum Mechanics or Algorithm Theory or Sophocles in the Original Greek – that shiznat is way above their paygrade.

        But if you stick to the basics – Bra Cup Sizes, Fake Boobs, Collagen Injections, Skirt Lengths This Year, Loyalty/Betrayal, Love/Hate, Attraction/Repulsion, Miley Cyrus/Katie Perry/Lady Gaga – then the cosmetics counter gals will talk your ear right off.


      • ZS: ” then it seems to me that a really good line would be the honest one: “Let’s hook up some time in a joint that’s a little quieter and where we can have an actual conversation with one another.”

        That’s a really, really good suggestion. I know where the quiet spots are and I will do that.


      • I’m from the New York City / Fairfield / Westchester area, so I see a high level of quality. I think DC is also quality of a different sort. I don’t have an “in” to the DC clans, and they are very clannish, so I have some curiosity about it. They are doing better than NYC since 2008. I’ve felt frozen out whenever I try to spend more than 5 minutes with DC people.

        The women I meet in my area are at private parties of various sorts, since I am not barhopping, and the women are mostly but not entirely married. There is some shit testing, but it’s really about your ability to make interesting conversation. The alpha males in this environment tend to have fairly calm subdued office behavior, so it’s respected and is not an impediment as long as one can maintain the frame of command. But a biker thing or other act would probably work too, it’s just that we don’t often see it. The women have slightly longer attention spans, so the dynamic is a little different. Yet CH is right, they’re still females, and gina tingles are still what matter for the purpose. When a woman gets a lot of college degrees, the gina learns nothing from all the schooling.

        Amid all that, norms of conventional behavior are not well respected. “We’re above all that” especially at parties. So if you can go in, walk up to a woman and say “let’s fuck” and pull her out of there, you’d probably have a decent percentage of wins. I’ve been married my whole time in this area so I don’t know for sure. Things always go easier in the wealthy zipcodes. Everything.


      • I’m interested if you would elaborate on the later-in-the-relationship-deadly-shit-tests from older established privileged women


      • Privileged women are profoundly covert. I’m talking about UC, not UMC. They do not bicker, whine or bitch. They evaluate. They compare. They measure. They scheme strategically. They are often UC solely because they have these skills. They do not fight in public, they do not lose their shit in the parent-teacher conferences, they do not gossip in a manner they can get called out for it, and they do not lose — at anything.

        So the kind of shit-test you’re going to get from someone like this will be profoundly subtle: quiet observations if some other couple is moving ahead faster financially, if some other husband is better schooling his son, if some other guy just transformed his body with diet and exercise.

        Generally speaking, as Chas. Murray notes in his latest book, these people do not blow up their families like most mc and umc women do, and divorce; they will tolerate more infidelity if the home and money are good; but they remain hypergamous, these women, and they will cut you dead if they can, financially in divorce; they will cut you off at home, if they cannot take you in divorce.

        So when you meet one of them in public, their shit-tests will be of the most subtle kind, not the in-your-face kind Scray lists and we’re all familar with. The shit tests with my Chanel friend were all socio-economic: the Vineyard, Sidwell, shoes, vocabulary, “do you work for yourself?” etc. It sounds like a bunch of dull TV talk, which it is, but she’s just qualifying the customer. I used to refuse to play that game, but it didn’t work. They wouldn’t talk to me if I made fun of their qualifying questions.

        Now I answer or suggest the tests myself ( yes– I shit-test myself to get it out of the way, because she won’t be comfortable until I’m qualified socio-economically), but I do so as vaguely or modestly as I can: “Yeah, a friend of mine has a boy over there; what year is your son” “Yes, I used to fly in there a lot in a prior life.” “Well, I’m in transition, basically, I think we’ll sell out in the next year or so and I’ll be moving on to more literary horizons”.

        The information in the prior three statements, to an UC woman, are: 1) I am in a social grouping that prizes $45K per year children’s education; 2) I flew myself to either a girlfriends house or my own house on a certain island; 3) I’m retiring soon on entrepreneurial winnings and writing books (or, who knows, blogs!!!).

        In general, if you’re fit, going full Hedge Fund Gigolo in dress will work very well with these women. It distinguishes one from the fat guys in their sack suits. After that the shit-testing will be socio-economic, though it doesn’t hurt to have some knowledge of some aspect of the arts community (where they donate and volunteer) or some social justice/community development B.S. (where they also donate and volunteer).


      • Those don’t sound like standard female shit-tests to filter out potential mates; they sound like filters to weed out the non-rich. in other words, you suggest these women have strong discipline and total focus on status and money; or maybe it’s that the very rich, like the very famous, develop this sense of superiority over the non-rich or non-famous, and won’t even engage in normal human interaction unless they know you’re one of them, or cloise enough (rich enough) to pass, as it were. perhaps that discipline, or that sense of supriority, extend to the ‘gina, which won’t tingle unless you’re the right kind of person.

        How would you describe hedge fund gigolo attire?


      • Maurice, I think the assortive mating habits of the UC are exactly as you describe: they solve for money, status, and a few other markers such as education-level. Then when those markers are met, they go looking for love. Murray has noted the absolute discipline they now employ in creating their insular worlds.

        For the hedge fund gigolo concept, Sebastian Pritchard coined the term and described it here:

        and we batted it around a few times here:

        (Lots of pictures.)

        Extremely versatile and efficient way to dress, extremely flexible, while also stressing a man’s fitness level and non-cubicle-dwelling outlook.


      • I guess the only exception to the rich-filtering thing is the cliche of the rich bored housewife fucking the poolboy or tennis instructor. But even then it’s more like (uh, is literally) being serviced by the hired help.

        Thanks for the links. I suppose the long quote in the second one is from you-? That’s a pretty standard look actually, one that I use often on nights out (minus the plunging neckline). Usually with leather boots or desert boots instead of loafers. You are right that the quality of fit and material is important- women are typically very observant of those- they signify wealth as well as style/taste. Also, fwiw, the fat-guy-in-sack-suit need not be the antithesis of the cool HFG look- a great suit minus a tie can be an equivalent look, if a little dressier.

        Fit is ultimately dependent on fitness- you first have to have that trim, V-shaped torso for the trim, V-shaped jacket to show it off. American men (straight ones anyway) tend to be a little leery of trim-fitting clothes- the bagginess maybe being a way to avoid showing the countours of the body.


      • Maurice, I think you got it; these women’s entire existence is based on their weeding out, and yet BV is still interested in such women. Wouldn’t he be better off with a gorgeous younger women in her late 20s, or even early 30s? OK, maybe she won’t have the divorce settlement and the connections, but at least she’ll make a good mate. What’s more important, happiness, or marrying wealth?

        Furthermore, everyone has to remembers that at the end of the day, no matter how much money you have to spend on recapturing your youth, and how great you look into your 40s, it won’t last. Even the plastic surgery isn’t going to help you much past your 50s.

        And your money? It’s not going to come with you where you’re going. You’ll leave with nothing, so that all your hard work and toil is really in vain. It’s better to have good people surround you and enjoy life. You could still make your fortune, but not at the expense of your happiness. Marrying it is even more shallow, especially for a man. One of the most important decisions you’ll ever make is who you marry. It has the power to make you or break you; bring you much happiness or great sorrow. Therefore, choosing a mate based on her trust fund or her divorce settlement is really shallow, more shallow than choosing a mate based on her looks alone.

        I think in BV’s case he thinks that if she has her own money then he’ll have to spend less on her, and in the event of a divorces they could each go their separate ways. Makes sense if you’re into that kind of cold unromantic relationship. However, knowing these types of people, it’s almost a given that a divorce is in the future, and at the end of the day, happiness is still illusive and the marriage a waste of time. It’s better to marry a woman that doesn’t travel in these jaded circles.


      • Lily, you misjudge on many levels. Which is okay. But in the interest of my reputation only:

        1) I have my own money so needn’t marry it. Please discard the gigolo/avaricious angle in my case.

        2) A late 20’s girl will want babies. I have done that already and want to write, not rear, for the next 30 years.

        3) I’m an intellectual as much as a sexual actor so I need to be with a woman I can discuss the world with, before or after we do the unmentionable. So I don’t mind giving up some beauty for some wisdom — and proven virtue.

        4) I’ve been knocked around in divorce, in a conventional but extremely expensive manner, so I’m not getting involved with any wild cards.

        5) It is a mistake to assume that all UC women are wealthy. Many are not. And since I am a bit of a sigma I view certain artists and bohos as UC even if they are “poor.”

        Appreciate your helping me think about how I present myself and how others react to that.


      • BV, I figured that #2 is definitely an important aspect of your choice. You don’t have to worry about that with older women with kids.

        #3, “I don’t mind giving up some beauty for some wisdom — and proven virtue,” is obviously what you’re doing. Figured it out to, and told you so already.

        #4, you told me this already in other threads. Too bad that it affected you so much.

        #1, you also told me already. But you also said that you like her to have her own money – that it turns you on.

        #5, I agree with you on that, especially if you like #3.

        “Appreciate your helping me think about how I present myself and how others react to that.”

        Honestly, who cares how people react to this? You have to do what pleases you.

        That said, you should be more canny in RL. You can’t be as forthcoming and honest about yourself as you are here. As long as you are anonymous, you can afford to be honest, but in RL people will judge you based on their personal values. If you can’t take the judgment, then yes, it’s better not to reveal too much.


      • Fascinating, thx!


      • In my experience, by the time those shit-tests come rolling around, though, you’ve already screwed them silly and the answer is invariably “next.” They’re women – they still want men, they just sour-grape shit-test after so they can feel good about themselves about how you aren’t worthy of them long-term.

        Can’t answer the dress thing – I dress to my own tastes and always have, so I’m never in fashion, or rather, I’m in my own. But I *do* insist that my clothes actually fit (none of this “five extra pounds of shirt waggling around”), and that does seem to make a notable difference.


      • “Newsflash: objection: elegant, privileged women do not shit-test like regular women or wives. They don’t. They evaluate silently, and they’re good at it. They never say anything like your last sample quotes.”

        You’re wrong. All women shit test. It has nothing to do with elegance or privilege. What you’re really trying to say is that older women are more sophisticated and less obvious about it. The shit testing is done more subtly and cleverly.

        “If she’s in a Chanel suit on Wednesday in a bar, a block off M Street, trust me, she’s either psycho or the real deal. In both cases, no shit-tests. None of this is probably useful for this blog because I’m so much older. The shit-tests with this kind of woman come later, well into a relationship, and they are indirect and deadly if misunderstood. We can deal with them another time.”

        Oh, please. You give these older women too much credit as if they are masterminds and “deadly if misunderstood.” LOL we’re talking about old hags here. As CH says, never mind her perception or her imaginary feminist power, reality of her advanced age, she can never escape – no matter what vibes she tries to give off with her couture clothing.

        “My sense is that highly privileged females, when they fall, they fall all the way to to pool man. What does this mean? They want to be treated like a normal person. I was trying to treat both of them as, essentially, co-workers, as I would any woman in a professional context.”

        No. Like all other women, they are desperate to find a mate or a companion for great sex, never mind being treated like a normal person. That’s not what they are after. These women have an inflated feminist ego prevalent in their age group. The only thing they want is sex, so they can feel like they’re still a sexual being, and still desirable to men. All they’re doing is fighting off old age with their plastic surgery, cosmetics, tailored clothing, and fit bodies – what I collectively call, fighting old age with their finger nails.

        Furthermore, if these women are indeed co-workers, then it makes sense you treating them like it. But if they are dates and you’re treating them like a business deal, that’s serious egalitarianism that you’re feeding into. Either way, this indicates that these encounters are really just about the sex, not romantic relationships that younger women crave.


      • Lily, if they’re pointless “old hags” then I am a worthless gramps ready to be deposited on an ice floe.

        So, oddly, I start with a different point of view: that the SMV curves are staggered by about 10 or 15 years, so perhaps they are my peers; that it’s fun to decode the hidden protocols of the subtle; that it’s good to play the piano with two hands, not just play chopsticks with two fingers.

        Also, you guys have this linear model of physical attractiveness and it’s just … wrong. Springsteen looks better today than he did at 30. I look better today than I did at 31 — at least to some women (I was underweight then). A 40 year-old woman with genes who does yoga every day and eats properly looks better than your average binge-busting pizza-chowing college girl.

        Anyway, everything for sexually alive people may devolve to sex (it does with me). But sex isn’t everything. That’s the paradox.

        (When I was 22? Everything was sex. And sex may well be wasted on the young.)


      • “A 40 year-old woman with genes who does yoga every day and eats properly looks better than your average binge-busting pizza-chowing college girl.”

        If you have trained your eyes to see this, then it’s true. However, realistically, no amount of yoga is going to bring back the skin elasticity or brightness of the 22 year old and all the pizza she devours.

        “But sex isn’t everything. That’s the paradox.”

        I agree. But money isn’t everything either. A balance is more in order – looks and wealth and sex are great, but so is a good character, which is something I don’t believe most of these older women have.

        Why isn’t society training us to look at internal character? Why are we so shallow and look only at the external things?

        Don’t get me wrong. I come from wealth myself, but I have been trained by my parents not to let it confuse me or rule me as to character.

        Think about it. You’ve already had a marriage from hell, and you say you have been through a lot. You know what a bad wife can do to a man, why go the same route? I have a feeling you have been there done that already, meaning hooked up with certain women that you describe here, and which your ex. wife was probably one too. When something doesn’t work, it’s time to try something new. JMO.


    • I’m digging the chill Buena Vista vibe during this interlude, reminds me of the late great A.B. Dada. This site could use much more of it. Mature, relaxed, honest, observant, responsive — the Chateau at its best. Game for grown ups.


      [CH: jesus pepped.]


  2. ‘halfway through the evening another software ceo, very successful guy, very notorious for his harems and runins with the SEC, was holding court with his usual gaggle of staff and the groupies the ceo always has about.’

    I think I know this fucker. He buys women by the truck load whenever he’s boat.


    • [redacted by request of BV]. Grade A douchebag who knows how to flaunt his toys.


      • seriously boys? shit talking pretty girls who are hotter than you is grade A pussy bitch. girls love douche bags. watch and learn. (I am not the motherfucker in question).


      • I don’t get why this guy stays in DC, Microstrategy could be based anywhere, unless being King of the Dorks is a laudable title


      • All about the benjamins baby. DC is the epicenter of BigGov and those contracts are pretty much the only growth industry we have left. Why move your operations away from the revenue stream? There is a reason that two of the counties in NoVA are in the top 5 richest in the nation.


      • He is a rent-seeker, looking for the easy money of fedgov contracts.


      • He doesn’t stay here much. He bought a $20M spread in Miami Beach that he spends a lot of time at. At least one of his boats is usually in Gtown during the summer but he’s rarely on it – he lets his friends use it.

        I work with a guy who was involved with him in a business deal and not only is he a whack job he’s a sleazeball also. Smart dude though.


  3. Your initial investment will have to be higher by way of default, especially with tighter women. Of course, eventually, once you get her hooked (a neg or two, push pull, qualification, amused mastery, diffusing shit tests etc.) move on to being a low energy guy, only changing gears every once in a while.

    I guess that’d be the comfort stage of the three step pickup. That’s when you can (and should) chill out and be inquisitive and ask her some emotion laden questions about herself, and give away a bit of info about yourself.


  4. BV, I really like you. I just wanted to let you know so you feel confident in yourself.

    I think you have a daughter around my age? Coz that makes you just my type. wink.


    • Why are you still here?


      • on October 24, 2013 at 6:52 pm Imperial Leather

        because no man in real life would look at her let alone fuck her or give her the attention she craves, the interweebs was spawned for her ilk


    • Haha. It’s bad enough when I take my daughter out for dinner in NYC and both of us take shit all night from middle-aged women. At 21 last time I actually got an elbow from one.


      • ok, well I think you look nice. If you like girls who are 45, then good for you. But I think many girls much younger also have charming personalities. I think if you give it a chance, some young ladies may like you.

        [CH: someone’s got the bingles! (bindi tingles)]


      • BV has given me some pretty good advice on my blog, so I have warm feelings towards him. I want him to feel good about himself because he is a good person.


      • We’ll have to reconvene out of sight of these dudes at the King Cole Room sometime. Or I have a favorite dive on Avenue B.


      • on October 25, 2013 at 3:24 pm Hugh G. Rection

        He’ll never love you quite like Matt though.


      • Of course he can! Agape is available to everyone who doesn’t hate himself. I hope they make a go of it next time he’s in the city.

        I am not sure if their neuroses are a healthy fit, but it would be an interesting experiment to see if the raw exposure of anonymous internet confession can be a foundation for a functional relationship, particularly between needy people.

        Although, Rappaccini’s Daughter is much more geographically convenient and that circumstance has its own kind of kismet.

        The interconnectiveness of our age has made for an awkward transition. Introductions, dating, and relationships had to be translated from analog to digital to hypernetwork. The cart is before the horse: we learn intimate details of strangers before we even know what their faces look like. Weirds me out. But then, I grew up before the sea-change (and so did everyone over 20).

        I have long been skeptical, even repulsed at this unnatural progression, like trying to walk backwards up a staircase to a relationship. I dismissed it out of hand based on some bad experiences early in the age, before the smartphone, before 24-hour/handheld/personal exposure began maturing into its own custom and set of psychological expectations. It is a hard transition.

        But now we are seeing the first generation of kids who never knew the atomized analog world, whose entire life has been networked and documented from day one. They are the pioneers, who will show us the limits of such a wide-open milieu. Either it will be an unprecedented opportunity for transparency and honesty, or a tragedy of the commons.

        This is why the manosphere is a bunch of dicks for dumping all over the Great Kate Experiment with Mark Minter. Here were two honest, “red pill” people from the old school willing to experiment in the new paradigm, but the haters squandered their offer of candor, and now the formerly chatty couple can’t trust us and report detail on their progress.

        Short-sighted douchebags. Yes, this bitterbetasphere, this repository of scorned men and omega self-hatred, could use many more fearless attempts at love. Though most of you will snark away and ankle-bite, it’s your most comfortable mode.



      • Aw, shucks. I don’t know what better base a relationship could have than shared beliefs. I know we weren’t the first, and I encourage others to try. As for sharing, well, that didn’t go so well before, but who knows? Maybe that trust can be regained.


      • Plenty of people here are happy for you, Kate. And who cares about the others? Qui ne risque rien n’a rien!


      • I know, Amy, and I appreciate that very much indeed. The risks are more serious than just having my feelings hurt, but I’ll tell you what: when you see me change my gravatar, we’ll have something to share with all of you. A sort of gift 🙂


      • “I am not sure if their neuroses are a healthy fit, but it would be an interesting experiment to see if the raw exposure of anonymous internet confession can be a foundation for a functional relationship, particularly between needy people.”

        You can’t be totally nice, even when trying, eh? LOL. I must say, your sarcasm is bitter and dry, but hilarious.

        So, you don’t like internet meet and greet so to speak? Might be the perfect place to practice that causticness you like to inflict.


      • You can’t be totally nice, even when trying, eh? LOL. I must say, your sarcasm is bitter and dry, but hilarious.

        Wasn’t being sarcastic, and “nice” is the real n-word.

        I don’t aim to be gentle, I aim to be truthful. Gentleness has its place, but our culture mistakes it for sympathy/compassion when it is really an outlet for condescension/cowardice. It is one of the worst qualities of femininity.

        Moreover, mine was a qualified observation, of course: everything online comes with an asterisk. Like I said, it is interesting to see how the fake social world of the internet (can we even still call it “The Internet” anymore?) and the real one are converging as the former becomes a greater and greater part of the latter.

        So, you don’t like internet meet and greet so to speak?

        Online anonymity is one-dimensional socializing with little room for nuance. My presentation depends heavily on tone and body language and subconscious signaling. It is no wonder that my words are taken the wrong way nearly 100% of the time (like you just did above). I have spoken to many women about their “neuroses” quite bluntly, but when I deliver my message with eye contact, a welcoming expression, and touch of reassurance, they are not mistaken as unfriendly.

        The people who prefer Facebook and texting and chat are people who have difficulty in meatspace. This is a social simulator, good for shy people dipping their toe in, stifling for the rest of us (if large in scope and convenient).

        We are not wired to know a person’s inner life before we know what he looks like. The effect is creepy, like a voice-recording run backwards.

        But, we are gradually adopting customs to adjust to this unnatural progression. Like most developments, it’s a good thing and a bad thing.



      • Kate wrote:

        I don’t know what better base a relationship could have than shared beliefs. I know we weren’t the first, and I encourage others to try.

        We have disagreed about this from the beginning, but “shared beliefs” is not important as the visceral, almost tangible, chemistry of in-person contact. A couple grows into a shared belief (at least in their own relationship) by instinctive and subconscious methods which are all stripped away by the denuding internet machine. A man in full is so much more than his thoughts, not to mention the symbolic representation of those thoughts casually tapped out in the written language of uneditable comboxes.

        In any event, I am glad you put your money where you mouth is because, like I said, the social dynamic is shifting radically. No, you “weren’t the first,” but you are the first in this community that I know of, which makes you pioneers at least in that regard: two social commenters actually discovering the veracity of that commentary with each other.

        You are pioneers. Pioneers get slaughtered, and settlers prosper.

        Going from the one dimension of guarded pseudonymous identity to multi-dimensional reality is fraught with complication, as you must have discovered, at least in the beginning stages. It’s unfortunate that you can’t share with us the warts-and-all account of that transition (and I don’t recommend it with this crowd of dickwad malcontents). Because that is where intercommunication is heading: a relatively rapid convergence of the physical with the digital.

        God bless and keep you, I hope you are doing well.



      • Consider this: in this particular post, you’re being online high energy, in essence having and controlling an interesting conversation that anyone can listen in to. Helpfully enough, you’re also preselected from the start. And those are suddenly some pretty blatant tingles, right?


  5. Hasn’t a 45 year old hit the wall already? And she has a kid. What does she have to offer except for a little recreation?


    • Seriously? Catherine Deneuve? Liz Hurley? Rene Russo? Seriously? These are far more attractive women than some hot body 9 with a tramp stamp.


      • No, not if the woman is 22. Your penis doesn’t agree. You’re conscious mind is acquiescing to brand names. You’re afraid of losing your socialized dignity.


      • Get back to me after you’ve had sex with a highly skilled 44 year-old movie icon who enjoys sex and knows what she is doing. We’ll compare notes: Oscar-winner?, or hot-body 9 from the drive-thru window at the Dairy Queen. Seriously.

        Also, thanks for interpreting my penis for me.


      • 44? don’t worry. I surely won’t/


      • You can keep them all.


      • whats the similarity between a pro athlete and a woman?

        you never pay much at all for one over 30.


      • Would a man really care if a girl works at Dairy Queen if she’s young and hot enough? Do men really prefer older sophisticated types to young hot girls who work low paying jobs? I thought men didn’t much care about how much money a woman makes.


      • I’m a relationship-game guy, so cognitive and social skills matter to me. They influence my sexual desire for a woman. This is because I am solving for time horizon (sexual and romantic interest over time) as well as immediate batshit crazy monkey sex.

        Certainly in CH’s purest definition, a Faye Reagan body beats an older woman with higher cognitive and social skills, every time. Smart women are not threatened by this, incidentally.

        On another blog a woman recently admitted that when her husband wants sex but she’s meh, she fellates him in front of the youtube of Kate Upton doing the cat dance. *She* thought to add the video, not he. That is one durable LTR, I bet.


      • BV are you saying that if a girl works at Dairy Queen, even if she’s young and hot, men will want her for sex but not for a relationship? Is this true??


      • No, just a man like me. I need the intellectual as well as the limbic. So I would fantasize about her but not fantasize about moving her into my life.


      • on October 25, 2013 at 3:22 pm Hugh G. Rection

        It’s not about where she works. But if she’s notches below you intelligence wise you’ll grow bored of her soon enough.


      • I’d prefer the latter to the former. She looks hotter, I can train her to my satisfaction, and she might still be sexy in five years … unlike the 51-year-old.

        Whether or not she has an Oscar is irrelevant. Men don’t care much at all about women’s credentials; women care a lot about men’s.


      • NAMALT?? 🙂 I sort of get where BV is going with this. He is looking for a partner and when the fucking is over you have to watch the Dairy Queen pick up her i-toy and drool on herself. However, there is some middle ground here BV. Why not the 30something chick who is very intelligent and accomplished? I don’t see why you are fishing in such deep and turgid waters.


      • Jay, actually, I think am well-suited to a 30-somethings. So I’m teaching myself day game and trying to learn stuff like the subject here, in order to meet them, because I can’t meet them online anymore. There are no women in my industry, to speak of, all my friends are married, so I have to meet romantic interests cold.

        (Because AGE FILTER. My pictures but not my age pass the initial filter for most. When I go out with my 25 year-old daughter in NYC, *everyone* assumes we’re dating, which is a fascinating experience. My daughter is a knockout: her mother and grandmother were Vogue models, and she works for a prominent luxury brand, so she dresses well. But they think we’re a couple. The matrons are vicious, their husbands stare balefully at me (and one asked me “How did you meet her?”), and the waitresses flirt with me (I guess because they’re assuming I’m a sugar daddy? That’s the only thing I can come up with.))

        I suppose the fact that in Manhattan people assume I’m dating my daughter is the material evidence of your, and CH’s, and others’ comments that I am aiming a little low. I hadn’t thought of it that way.

        I just don’t have the animosity or disinterest for older women that is common in a competitive PUA context. In order to get some advice here I understand I’m going to get a metric shit-ton of old-guy abuse.

        [CH: if you genuinely prefer dating older women, then knock yourself out. no skin off anyone’s nose. your personal preference means that dating the women you want will be easier for you because your targets are softer. but know that your preference is the exception. most men prefer younger women, much younger women when they can get them. and this reality of the sexual marketplace means that older women are at a distinct disadvantage to younger women for the attentions of high value men. it also means that older women, at some level, are keenly aware of their diminished SMV, and act accordingly.]


      • [if you genuinely prefer dating older women, then knock yourself out.]

        You are all missing his point. He is introducing a touch of nuance to your article of faith, that young beats old, period, next question. He isn’t disagreeing with that eternal truth of that principle, he is elaborating smartly on the concept.

        We all understand the built-in appeal of a drunk 20-year-old slob college chick with a rockin bod in sweat pants and flip flops. In some ways she doesn’t even have to try. BV is just registering his appreciation for refinement, which often requires age. Wine and couture over Jaegerbombs and visible tats.

        Why so defensive about the Commandments? You should be exploring the flexibility of your creed to make its tenets more resilient, rather than reiterating the faith to the already faithful.

        Or do you really think he missed the memo that “[the] reality of the sexual marketplace means that older women are at a distinct disadvantage to younger women”? It’s pedantic condescension in the YaReally vein, rather than trusting the high probability that well-spoken readers have absorbed the basics.


        [CH: i dunno matt, when i read you i feel like i’m getting clobbered round the head and breast with a plush nerf bat. i could hold up an arm to swat it away… but it’s kind of a fun spectacle to endure.]


      • Yick.

        Keep your sub fantasies private, please. Imagining me “clobber” you about the “head” and “breastesses”? I’m not your huckleberry.

        If you want to “reframe” the discussion (i.e., evade a topic for which you have no reply), try not to veer into your masochistic homo id. Remember how we talked about using our inner voice for certain subjects?


        [CH: holy back door projection, batman!]


      • Fag “projection”: the left’s best understanding of why anyone would possibly object to their pet deviancy.

        He notices and rejects faggotry, therefore he must secretly love it!

        Using the “projection” card in general is lefty. Perfect for evasion and distraction, from subject to speaker.

        Meh, I invoke O’Sullivan’s Law here. You’re already trending in your tactics. Leave one cell in the body for libertinism/social libertardianism, the entire corpus eventually succumbs.


      • on October 25, 2013 at 4:15 pm Hugh G. Rection

        And now you’re saying by using a lefty tactic he’s a lefty? Not your best work here, Matt.


      • “Get back to me after you’ve had sex with a highly skilled 44 year-old movie icon who enjoys sex and knows what she is doing. We’ll compare notes: Oscar-winner?, or hot-body 9 from the drive-thru window at the Dairy Queen. Seriously.”

        These guys are right; you’re blinded by the fame, the wealth, the status – all things men traditionally disregard and women care about much more. There is a lot extra going on here than just wanting an intelligent woman and enjoying her company, which can’t be criticized if simply it’s all there is. It’s really the fame, the wealth, and the status that turns you on – things that usually attract women.

        That’s why to you there is no in between. There is either the wealthy experienced elegant accomplished older woman, or the 20-something illiterate dairy queen. You can’t see past the wealth if it doesn’t exist in a prospect.

        Sigh….. I think we have a case of sexual role reversal here, which often plagues baby boomer feminists of both sexes. It’s ridiculous that as a man you can be dazzled by status like a woman can, especially when you have wealth yourself, so why act like a low-level gold digger?


      • Halle Berry, Connie Britton, etc. I get what you’re saying, but movie starts are pretty far removed form teh average middle-aged female, both in terms of basic beauty and fitness regimes.


      • Not to me. Those women are wealthy. I’d love to talk to them and learn how they think and discuss our different experiences. But for fucking? No, that part of them doesn’t attract me much.


    • on October 25, 2013 at 6:41 am gunslingergregi

      seriously though get off the movie gay shit and embrace some real hotness that you can fuck
      if you really do have a list of actress types you want to fuck do it
      try to dream about some real shit and get it


      • The exercise is to learn how to do just that: walk up and pop the ‘don’t talk to me I’m too special’ bubble. And I’m getting a lot of value from the comments.

        For the record, I did date an “actress type” that Blanchett felt compelled to insult in public because “you’re not as beautiful as everyone says you are”. SMV 10, truly. But I met her by accident. Also, you guys would seem to think of her as a sexless granny, which amuses me much: we usually didn’t go downstairs on Saturdays until about 3 p.m. And I got more blowjobs while driving my car in six months than I’ve otherwise enjoyed in my whole life.


      • Give us her name. Let’s see if she really is/was hot.


      • You know her name. It doesn’t matter if you believe me. This is the last forum where I’ll ever embarrass her.

        Anyway, it’s immaterial to the thread. I met her by accident. If I go swimming in that particular pool of good fortune again, I want it to be because I dove in, not because I fell in. Two days of comments and I think I am closer to that goal, and I appreciate it. I didn’t make my first cold approach to a woman until I was 46, and I am not joking.


      • Does anyone else picture the guy from the Dos Equis commercials?


      • on October 25, 2013 at 3:18 pm Hugh G. Rection

        I don’t always drink beer. But when I do I bang Oscar winners.


      • All right you teenaged pudknocking motherfuckers. Top this. I don’t have a TV. It was Oscars night. I had an Oscar-winner in my home. Her husband was up for several Oscars. She wanted to watch the Oscars. Quick: smart guys: what do you do?

        We watched the Oscars in a Comfort Inn in rural Virginia with two bowls of microwave popcorn. And had sex. She was over 40. Fuck off with your little diminishments, and Lily’s “oh you’re a man-whore crap.” That, my friends, is love. That is love. If you’re not interested in love, why should I care? But that, that, is love. If you’re lucky you’ll find it for a few months, as I did.


      • It was Oscars night. I had an Oscar-winner in my home. Her husband was up for several Oscars. She wanted to watch the Oscars.

        That means you’re claiming it was either Frances McDormand or Catherine Zeta Jones.


      • on October 26, 2013 at 3:09 pm Hugh G. Rection

        Seeing as there is no way to verify this story I really want it to be true. Good for you BV.


      • Top that, motherfuckers!


      • Mark Minter on October 28, 2013 at 11:10 am
        Top that, motherfuckers!

        The prodigal attention whore returns.


      • Mark Minter on October 28, 2013 at 11:10 am
        Top that, motherfuckers!

        The prodigal attention whore returns.


  6. Um, so was BV being high energy or low energy? Or did he switch from one to the other? I can’t tell. Both approaches sound like standard low-pressure indirect game.


  7. Pretty good description of Milano. I haven’t been there for a few years, but the place has always mildly annoyed me. It’s also the reliable go-to place for LA/Hollywood types when they’re in town- never understood why they don’t branch out. The CEO was most likely XXXXXXXXXX- he’s the only one I can think of that has both the high-profile and personality (and SEC run-ins) to match the thumbnail portrait.

    I too, as an extrovert, don’t think BV was running real high-energy game- having short, quiet conversations with two women seems more like slightly talky introvert game. True extrovert game might have worked in that status-whoring environment, but I think the contrast with the usual types (no suit, etc.) might have been your strongest asset.


    • I *think* the “experiment” was low energy game in an environment where the competition (ie the CEO) was high energy. Better experiment would have been to actually DO some high energy approaches, then some low ones on similar targets.

      Or maybe I’m missing the point of the whole anecdote altogether.


  8. on October 24, 2013 at 5:41 pm Ternarydaemon

    I wouldn’t consider cougars like that such an easy target. She is past the Wall, but time and money invested in her constantly means that she is better than 90% of all existing women, including most 18-24 year olds. Add her experience because of age and (hopefully) some level of logic because pre-menopause, and you will find yourself competing with dozens of 40-70 year old businesmen/CEOs/lobbists.

    Essentially, hypergamy for cougars. Think about it, she is in the top 0.01 percent of all women past 40, she has the body (but admittedly not the face/skin) and perhaps none of the insane OCD/bitchyness/ignorance/social ineptitude of youg hot women.

    [CH: wealthy former trophy wives who spend a lot on their upkeep (and why do they need to spend so much? rhetorical) *think* they have higher smv than they do, but they really don’t. all BV has to do is flirt with a woman half the cougar’s age and she’ll be pawing all over him… or steaming the night away angry at the world.]


    • Thanks. I realize I’m older than most of you. But I think if you met some of these privileged women, who do have the figure, lifestyle and wardrobe, if not the precise face, of Catherine Deneuve at 45, you’d gasp a time or two. They’re much more alluring to me than most women under 30. Seriously.

      [CH: BV i’m picking up a low confidence issue from you. cougars, no matter how hot, are lower value now than when they were younger, and most of them are lower value than the average woman half their age. you have to know this. you as a man are at your prime, and these broads are subconsciously aware of that. even consciously aware. you should be acting like you own them, not the other way around. once you start acting like that (and it really won’t be acting) you’ll start to notice the cougars are driving claw marks into your chest.]


      • Women in their 40s have to take care of themselves even if they have a nice figure. Had a break from my regular – a girl in her late 20s (size 0, 22 inch waist) who works in a profession where she is physically active daily – to sleep with an old flame currently in her late 30s, who was once featured in Playboy. While the old flame has maintained a nice figure, the difference was night and day. Show me a picture of a woman in her 40s with a perfect body who has had children and avoided plastic surgery. I don’t think this creature exists.


      • CH: thanks. This is thought-provoking. The one Hollywood woman I dated never understood why I deferred to her on SMV. I suspect you’re right. That’s a wide river to cross though for someone with my past. Again, appreciate the appraisal.

        Would appreciate it if you would delete the name of the certain software someone who is named earlier, and accurately, in this thread.


      • Bro, take down your gravatar pic. It’s not a very good idea….at all


      • Thanks, done.


      • on October 25, 2013 at 6:11 am Lucky White Male

        CH I am with you here.

        Buena, you can go after Cougars. But seriously, you should be hitting on twenties girls. Especially if you are not married or otherwise involved.

        You are prime SMV no? What the fuck are you doing relegating yourself to over 40’s? I mean this in the best way, not trying to tear you down here


      • I feel like a dumb peasant. Wait, I AM one.

        What I don’t get: The forty-five year old can’t make a baby (in general.)

        The sex is just an exercise– it’s like the difference between seeing a painting in a museum ( here’s the genes you _could have_ given another life) vs. being in the studio with a younger, nude, willing but dumber model.

        A fertile one.


      • on October 25, 2013 at 12:15 pm Hugh G. Rection

        Just the same with a young girl on birth control.


      • “They’re much more alluring to me than most women under 30. Seriously.”

        You’re so in awe of these well-kept old hags??? Yet, they are all divorced women and/or feminists who made their careers their first priority, while riding the carousel for years. Other than their wealth, what is there to be in awe of? Are they decent human beings, I wonder????

        Under 30? Please. You won’t go out with women in their 30s either. LOL, who are we kidding? You specifically like the older woman because you assume she is wealthy through divorce, a trust fund, or has a business, which women much younger are less likely to have. The money turns you on. You want her to have her own wealth, and you want to keep both your finances separate. This appeals to baby boomer feminists, which younger girls would never go for. That’s why you’re willing to sacrifice looks for a trust fund. Younger women want a real merger that involves children, not a temporary companion. I think you’re just looking for a companion.

        Hey, to each his own.

        That said, I think a man says a lot about his personality (especially his emotional/psychological self) through the type of women he is likely to date. This rule of thumb is almost 100% accurate. I advise my GFs to find out who he dated previously to see if you’re compatible. His ex’s looks alone can reveal at least 50% of him. Her looks, age, height, profession, her marital status when they met, how they met, how long he stayed with her, and why they broke up can tell you so much about his inner self.

        Yeah, believe it or not, women judge the worthiness of a man based on the looks of his previous GFs.


    • Once went on an extended business trip and took home an aged 30s woman like this when she was out with a girlfriend. Was a hard 9 in her 20s, no doubt. She showed up at my hotel just for sex repeatedly. Open the door, straight to sex. Then would leave after an hour to take care of the kids. (And likely go back to her unsuspecting husband.) These women are much receptive to FB status in my opinion if they are not getting what they want physically at home.


    • Agreed. Women 28 and up must heavily invest into their body and skin if they want to keep some credible SMV past 32.

      However, a cougar like the one in this article would be foolish to put herself into a competition with 25 year olds. If she stays in a market and social scene where her competition are 40 year old divorcees and fat wives from succesful businesmen/CEOs/lobbists, she will be in the top 1% of her market. Her SMV will be lower than the one of a 23 year old waitress, but higher than almost all women over 40 alive in this planet.


  9. Well, I used to not put any premium on age until my gf of 35 just ended things. She has a great body and would be an 8. But her personality is still like that of a 25 year old. My game was generally tight but in analyzing what happened, I realize that perhaps she wasn’t able to deal with me putting her in her place: disappearing when she acted like a bitch, calling her out on her crap.

    I used to not think age mad a difference but now I think…myeh. Yah some of these older women may have great bodies but the sad bitter reality is why would any guy put up with that nonsense when there is always someone younger, hotter, tighter that knowing game gives you access to.

    I now personally think gaming women over 32 demonstrates a scarcity mentality on the part of the guy and that is what may be driving the attitude of these women.


  10. Pursue whichever girl turns you on most, BV. Aim high.


    • Aim for women in their 50’s, BV. They are even richer.


      • someone from the senior home called to tell bv that all the lady residents found his negs very charming and would like to see him back for another round of ovaltine


      • I submit myself to this bullshit willingly, too.

        Anyway, I’m not going to slap my privates on the table and brag about the college student I was dating last year. Which you will not be pulling off at 55. All I’m saying is, you either like women or you don’t.

        The ovaltine/rest home insult made me laugh, tho.


      • Bravo, BV. Ignore the haters and low info types. I much prefer the company of a 35+ woman who has kept herself up and fit. I am 51, and have no doubt i could game a 20-something should I choose, and have in the past, but there comes a point in your life that the meaning is much more than sex, and is more about the interaction. 20-somethings are lacking in that aspect of attraction.


      • Please do keep the 35+ hens enthralled. It means more 20-somethings for me.


      • Not a problem. Their dizziness is all yours…


      • Three cheers for men over fifty! I think they’re nifty 🙂

        [CH: and i bet you love that in the bedroom they’re not swifty.]


      • LOL I don’t know what you’re talking about, but you make me laugh 🙂


      • fair enough.

        guarantee you that a there’s a nice 35 year old yoga instructor who is agreeable and not trying to be a member of the handbag-of-the-month club.

        If you’re a naturally laconic and introvert ed, and center of attention game isn’t going to work for you, you still need to be assertive, quick and direct in a Milano setting.

        example: see a couple girls from across the room,you should almost be bellowing a “hey” when you approach, with arms high and spread showing dominance, and maintaining eye contact. you’re commanding respect in the place now, even if Alpha nerd has his audience of math PHd lap boys…engage the girls tersely..”is this the Thursday hottest night in DC?”…your question is urgent because you’re on a mission…ask girls to leave with you some better place…if they like you sexually they will…if they say no ask for number. don’t be the loser hanging out at the bar trying his drawn out “i’m cool guy” pick up aproach on every woman. keep the exchange within a minute, keep it moving.

        you will be surprised at how many high quality girls you can pull this way by getting right to the point.

        and for christ’s sake who cares about your $500 loafers. as long as you’re not wearing keds you’re fine. a guy doesn’t have to spend that much to look like a G.


      • My last two girlfriends were 37 and 36. I think your comment here about assertive, quick and direct is very helpful. It is that initial eye contact that the introvert freezes over, and then loses control of his option to approach. I’ve only failed in that manner 5000 times.

        On the shoe thing, I know it’s a douche comment by me, but women evaluate and rank order men on certain clothing pieces. That’s just a fact. I’m willing to play that game a little bit, and it saves a lot of time.

        My clothing game is summarized by bastiatblogger within his Hedge Fund Gigolo construct. I’m highly confident in this aspect of my game. It’s something I actually know something about.


      • “but women evaluate and rank order men on certain clothing pieces. “

        I’ll grant you that. By my mom, I know this is true. They especially notice your shoes.

        Anyway, dressing well can’t hurt. Ever. Unless, you’re after the very young college student who is used to seeing cads dressed in worn out jeans and a T. Once a girl is done with the college environment, real clothing become important, unless she is highly immature.

        Just like sexy clothes make a girl look hotter, so can well-made/expensive men clothing make a man look wealthy and having social status, which translate into influence and power. Women love men with high social status and power, especially the circles you’re traveling and the age group you’re hitting.


      • Yup. I definitely get conversation and shit-tests off wearing wrestling shoes with my suits.


  11. BV, I think your low energy type of game is perfect for the type of woman you probably prefer: sophisticated, reasonably intelligent women who have something interesting to say. (And great looking, of course.) I can’t see high energy game working reliably well on these women. They know how to engage in conversation with an ironic, indifferently mysterious guy. They don’t need to be constantly entertained.

    The Chanel suit neg is great, though. Absolutely perfect for that type of woman.


  12. “I now personally think gaming women over 32 demonstrates a scarcity mentality on the part of the guy and that is what may be driving the attitude of these women.”

    best comment so far.


  13. You Americanos are so anal-retentive it’s hilarious.

    High Energy: Sasha, Justin Wayne
    ‘Laconic’: Yad

    Youtube these guys and watch


  14. Interesting. What color was the flight jacket? I would strongly advise against a brown flight jacket.


    • I would also strongly advise against a flight jacket.


      • Well, the average barfly asshole in a department store flight jacket is a poseur, isn’t he? He doesn’t know an ILS from a DTF and he’s never been upside down in a jet. That would not be me.

        Anyway, the jacket I was wearing was a black MA-1 with two pencils in the sleeve pocket, actually, because I actually use it. $50 jacket that I’ve had for 15 years. I try to break rules when dressing, and generally go for the hedge-fund gigolo thing, but Milano is just so rich with those guys my jacket was my fuck-you-I-wear-what-I-want gesture for the evening. It was balanced with $500 loafers and a cashmere sweater.


      • stop trickin dude…you’re not a player


      • No, I’m not a player. I’m being instructed by them. But I can tell you right now how to barrel roll a Fouga or Yak — or that plane in the gravatar.


      • just be direct. walk up: “I want your number”..maybe she’ll try to qualify you. You have all the ammo you need…you run a company, are bright, etc.

        Better to put your intention out there immediately. shows confidence, especially if you can back it up.

        Beating around the bush is beta.

        Proving that you deserve her number because you’re cool or witty or a good dresser is beta.

        Modify volume for high energy and low energy energy environments. Billionaire in the room? High energy club? Talk louder.

        Works on the street, works in the hottest night clubs. They either like you or they don’t.

        Do not trick. do not spend 500 on your shoes. you attract gold diggers, if anything.


      • “just be direct. walk up: “I want your number”..”

        Darkhorse, your type of directness doesn’t work with much older women, who are also very wealthy. This works with the 20-something, not 40-something divorce/trust fund rich.

        “Do not trick. do not spend 500 on your shoes. you attract gold diggers, if anything.”

        He’s not tricking; it’s who he is. He is not dressing above his means.

        As far as gold diggers, these women are not classic gold diggers. They have great wealth already. However, like all women, they don’t want to date/marry blow their station. So if they think BV doesn’t have the bank account, they won’t give him the time of day. He must dress the part if he wants to get these women’s attention.

        Despite me thinking these woman are not marraige material, I can’t blame them for not wanting to date men below them. What woman does?

        I am mostly criticizing BV here, because he’s attracted to wealthy independent women, and that makes him a male gold digger. He’s attracted to them primarily because of their wealth, the same exact reason women are usually attracted to men. Traditionally, men loved younger women that not only were hot looking, but also women they could take care of. This is not BV’s preference though. To each his own.


      • That’s a fair point Lily, re shoes. Still tend to this it looks flat out needy, is a signal that attracts the wrong kind women. Girls that will not sleep with you because they want you to continue to pay for dinner, etc. Bad style = no sex. Good style = possibility of sex. Using money to compensate for lack of game = possibility of sex after girl shit testing you bank account.

        Not sure that directness doesn’t work with attractive 40-year olds. I don’t approach them. Have you tried?

        From my experience, initial directness (“give me your number”; “hi, let’s get out of here”; “I want to take you home”) is absolutely associated with pussy quivers, regardless of the environment. My hunch would tell me that 40 year old would respond the same day.

        Can just imagine a 40-year old bragging to her friend about her new boyfriend’s approach. “How did you meet him?” / “Well, he walked up to me at Milano and just flat out asked me for his number. I thought it was pretty brash, but he turned out to be quite a catch, the CEO of a software company.”

        Would love to see our friend BV try it out. Bet he pulls more.


      • Darkhorse, I’m going to try that, truly.

        Anyway: Walk up: “I want your number.” (I have sorta a Gregory Peck thing, I’ll probably say, “Hi. I know it’s a cliche. But I would like your phone number. I would like your number so I can call you and take you out some time. Because you have a great look. So may I have your number. I’ll put it into my phone right now.”


        In business, during all the pre-sales bullshit, from time to time, I just say, “We’re here, obviously, because we want to sell you a major license. If you are not configured to buy something this year it’s important you tell us. If you do not buy strategic software from small vendors, you have to let me know. For us to be here, we must know if you’re able to buy software from us. Because that is the only reason we’re here. Can you buy software this year from a small vendor?”

        It’s pretty funny. The middle-managers who hear that shit have no choice but to be honest, because they’re too taken aback. Thanks again. That is going to be a fun one, if I don’t have a stroke from the stress.


      • Lily, you’re now out of line. I’m a gold-digger like you’re Maureen Dowd. There’s no such thing as an internet mindreader, so I think you should resign that job. Let’s back away from the precipice and be friends. I enjoy sophisticated women, and they may or may not have dough.


      • BV…sounds a little verbose, like you’re assuming she’ll be uneasy about your asking for her number and in will need you to qualify why you need to ask her for her number or justify what you are going to do with it. If she’s uneasy about it, she’ll express that.


      • Calm down. I don’t mean it in a bad way. It’s not worse than you calling yourself a gigolo. I mean it as a figure of speech, or for lack of a better term that connotes the idea. I mean to say you get attracted to the same things that women traditionally have been attracted to (social status, money, fame) and which feminists call gold digging. It’s a reversal of traditional roles that many baby boomers have accepted. It’s just an observation about your preference; it doesn’t make you good or bad. If it makes you feel any better, I have defended gold digging here very recently, albeit from the woman’s perspective.


      • he’s attracted to wealthy independent women, and that makes him a male gold digger. He’s attracted to them primarily because of their wealth

        You’re missing something here. He’s not attracted to female wealth per se, and he said as much. He’s attracted to sophistication, which is rarer in younger women.

        I consider this entire confused discussion the fruit from the tree of CH’s original overstatement, that a woman’s attractiveness is 97% physical, which is exaggeration to make a point. I think it’s even an official part of the creed in the poon sedecalogue.

        Does anyone on the internet do nuance?



      • “He’s attracted to sophistication, which is rarer in younger women.”

        So, do you have to be 45+ to be sophisticated? Maybe. I don’t know. I know lots of younger sophistication though.

        But what is sophistication?

        Is it dressing well? And what’s better anyway, dressing well, or dressing hot?

        Or, is it about having the ability to converse over any subject? Or is it about having interesting banter?

        Or, is it about doing yoga? Or, is about Pilates? What’s more in? Maybe, it’s about having your own personal trainer too.

        Or, is it about belonging to the right social club? Or, is about donating to an acceptable feel-good lefty charity?

        Or, is it about being well-traveled? And, does that mean having had lots of lovers as well?

        I think, these are values that a certain segment of the population hold dear, what is termed here the “privileged elite,” that many of you hate and say is destroying the country.

        Bottom line, it all depends on whether or not you like those types of values and the women that have them.

        “You’re missing something here. He’s not attracted to female wealth per se, and he said as much.”

        As far as this statement, you might be wrong. He mentioned in another thread that he likes them to have their own money. That’s why I have mentioned this here a couple of times. He might be right though – to want this. If he’s not starting his life with her, and they’re not going to have kids, why go out with a younger woman who expects him to father children, as well as wants him to spend on her. If she had her own money, it might not be about anything else, but the companionship. I think it’s what he is after.


      • Darkhourse, you’re right. It sounds like I’m a pussy.

        I’m going to march up to some hot female in the Whole Foods and demand her number. I’m going to do it like you said. I expect some of you guys to buy me a scotch after I report the spiral, burning, exploding dive into a 10 meter crater. Because I don’t think they hear that too often. But I’m going to walk up to a woman, smile (I do have a good smile, I’m told) and say, “I want your number.” That’s probably illegal in Fairfax, but I’m going to do it. And you are going to bitcoin me $10 so I can self-medicated after the destruction.


      • Darkhorse, I went out tonight to two clubs in DC and said three times “I want your number [BV smile].” Thanks.

        (As mentioned above, I can’t hear well and these were 100+ dB environments. I will take Ya’s direction and not name them. Interestingly, the louder it gets, the dumber a man can be, because, wtf, conversation here?)

        Two numbers, one contemptuous shake of the head (god I hate that) — and I just got home. One of the two just sent me a picture of her boobs. And they’re good boobs.

        Lily, your fascination with calling me a money-grubbing male whore is offensive and I would appreciate it if you would not comment further on my posts. There’s an overwhelming ad hominem aspect to your comments (ad hominem in the correct sense: of ascribing motive) that is first, quite wrong, and second, beside the point. The point of this discussion is What is high energy? Can an introvert reliably do high energy? It’s drifted into an appreciation of women other than 19 year-old Pamela Andersons in wet t-shirts working at the Dairy Queen.


      • “Not sure that directness doesn’t work with attractive 40-year olds. I don’t approach them. Have you tried?”

        Darkhorse, I think he can definitely approach a 40-year old in a casual setting such as a coffeehouse in Manhattan or DC and ask for her number. What I said is that it probably won’t work with the 40-something divorcee/trust fund rich, who likes to qualify her men before she’s even seen getting a drink with him at the bar.


      • “Lily, your fascination with calling me a money-grubbing male whore is offensive and I would appreciate it if you would not comment further on my posts.”

        Male whore ? Wait a second! I didn’t call you a whore. Anyway, men can’t be whores.

        Money-grabbing? Well that’s another issue. I think money is very important to you – both in keeping your own, and in your mate having it herself. You’re willing to give up on looks and youth for it, so yeah, I’d say it matters to you plenty. This is where the gold digger is coming from. But as I said, which you chose to pay no attention to, I mean it as a figure of speech, or for lack of a better term that connotes the idea that money is significant in your dating selection. BTW, in dating, when money is important, it’s usually called gold digging. It’s just an observation about your preference; it doesn’t make you good or bad. I have defended gold digging myself.

        You would appreciate if I wouldn’t comment on your posts? Well, I’m sorry, not when your experience is a whole thread and we’re asked to comment.
        That said, you’re way too emotional about this. You’re over reacting regarding how people evaluate your dating experiences. Why put it here if you can’t take the least amount of criticism? You need to develop thicker skin if you’re going to be open about yourself here. If you’re bothered by the perception here, maybe it’s because you’re more worried how you’re seen in RL. You don’t have to be an open book in RL. Here, no one knows who you are, so keep cool.

        Just a bit of advice on what constitutes successful dating that doesn’t leave you making the same mistakes repeatedly and feeling frustrated, which appears to be your situation.

        I know you like women that are equal to you in education/achievement/wealth, but equal does not have to mean identical. Attraction and lust are much more important than dating a woman that looks good on paper. I’m sure in your circles, there are many women that are indeed good for you “on paper.” However, if lust is missing, all their money and all their business success and all their fancy degrees are irrelevant. While two people might have little apparently in common, they might still be a magnificent match for reasons that neither of them could ever explain. So don’t discount the Dairy Queen girl.

        Yes, Ms. Dairy Queen is a bit of an exaggeration. So, think about the 30-something gallery manager, or aspiring writer, or city librarian, or exhibit designer, or museum curator, or you get the idea. It doesn’t have to be the lowly Lady Dairy Queen or McD’s cook. Unless, of course, you still rather date the pilot or the class action lawsuit lawyer or the wealthy divorcée rich. It’s your choice, yes, but I still think that a woman’s greatest assets are her youth and beauty and femininity, which most of these types of women don’t have.

        Obviously, intelligence is important too, but if to you intelligence has to be an independent high-achieving female who matches you on achievement/ education/wealth, then you’ll run into many bitches and feminists who’ll end acting exactly as your ex. wife, which isn’t intelligent at all. Maybe, it’s better to date women that are not exactly like you, and delight in each other’s differences, don’t scare of them. Men and women are not the same, and it’s no fun dating the spitting image of your buddy, or the spitting image of you with a pussy.


      • Glad you had success. Directness like that is your best bet in a high decibel club setting. I’ve experienced similar results. You say you dislike the contemptuous shake of the head, but it’s a gift. It’s like finding out you didn’t get into a college of your choice without having to submit essays and an application. For whatever reason, the girl you struck out with didn’t like you – you weren’t her style, she has a man. Aren’t you glad you didn’t have to hang around all night justifying why you’re worthy. Talking her ear off, proving your value at the bar makes, ironically makes you a subordinate, which is clearly unattractive.

        This weekend I went extremely direct outside of a club where some of the most attractive young women in new york were clustered. Flat out asked for numbers for a host of 8.5/9/10s, ages 20-22. What I found out was pretty funny, but also obvious. The hotter the girl, the likelier she is to have a mate, and to have a mate present. Literally 50% of the girls had their boyfriends standing right next to them, and got instantly mate-guarded. They literally dragged their girls away from me, or confronted me face-to-face (mostly posturing, in my opinion.) This was in a very public space, where people are about as status-conscious as they can be, so I my thinking is the approach needs to be calibrated with, as you point out, some discretion. “I want your phone number” works in a club setting because there’s built in discretion. The environment is dark and noisy. Female compliance is veiled. A visible street where social competition is high requires veiling within the approach, but still must communicate directly “I want your number”.


    • Is brown a color to avoid? Leather jackets no good?


      • David:

        My view is that a man should ‘earn’ his sporting jackets: wear a Belstaff? Better own a Norton. Wear a flight jacket? Don’t be Walter Mitty, be a real pilot. Have an Orvis jacket with a padded shoulder? Better know how to shoot skeet. That’s just me. I don’t know if women see through the phoniness of a man driving a Prius wearing an A-2, but that is my opinion.

        I mostly wear black but that’s just for complexity reduction. I do wear brown jackets with blue jeans and brown boots or shoes. My thing is to have de minimus colors, and I usually balance what I have on top with my shoes or boots. That’s just me, but that has worked for me since I lived in Italy 30 years ago. I stole the design from a bankrupt Italian noble who used to visit the family I lived with while I was playing basketball that year.


        Scray, Ya, Darkhorse:

        I had two dates today and I was wearing a black leather (Coach) field jacket and black boots from Paul Stuart (they are made in England), for both. (I went into town, had date one at 1:30, date two at 3:30.) Then I had on a preppie button down with a cuff monogram and a red ascot, and a pair of decent blue jeans that reveal one’s athleticism. So when I picked up date #2 I was black to my hips, with a splash of red, with anonymous jeans. IME, this travels anywhere — absolutely anywhere — but the leather and boots signify edge, the jeans just indicate I’m not a porker, and the ascot is just my “fuck you I wear what I want” thing. Pretty much straight Hedge Fund Gigolo ™. I was comfortable at the fancy tea place for #1, and comfortable in the Capitol Hill quasi-dive bar for #2 — wearing the same clothing.

        So, a concluding Field Report for this expiring thread:

        #1 was dull, we chitchatted, zero chemistry, I ended it 15 minutes before I needed to. Irony there was #1 was going to a chamber music thing at one of the galleries — where my ex-wife works. I told her to check out the museum staff and email me with her bet as to which one seemed most like my ex-. I doubt I hear from her, don’t much care, my ex- is a lot more attractive.

        With #2, I tried to internalize many of the lessons here to achieve “laconic, pro-active” game. First, I called her and suggested that I just pick her up at home — a bit of a risk as this was our first date. She complied. I think she checked me out from her window, as she was a few minutes late coming down and appeared to be mimicking my dress: leather blazer, blue jeans, boots. That was interesting. So the date started at 3:30 p.m.

        We went to the quasi-dive bar which was busy and noisy as hell but I got a small table so I could read her lips and I tried to do what Scray says above: talk about what I want to talk about, with high energy, cycling frequently to her opinions, correcting her or questioning her opinions frequently (about as much negging as I can muster). I took her jacket and removed mine so she could see what I looked like when walking to the wall to hang them up. She had a nervous habit then of looking down at her bust and I must have said three times, which I have never said to any woman ever, including wives: “They look good” and then later, “They still look good.” (I’m not a boob man but all women think all men are boob men, I guess.)

        At one point we were talking about the SMP and what men and women want and how it’s not so complicated etc. I said that the busy bar on a football Sunday was really just cover for the basal male-female mating dance. She denied it. “People are just hanging out.” Then I offered that it wasn’t true and I could prove it.

        When it was time to buy our third round, there were two women sitting together at the bar. The bar was jammed so they were surrounded by men. I estimated that the women were 20 or 25 years younger than I: typical DC perpetual single females, verging on the Wall and Baby Rabies. They think they’re 8’s, they’re really 6’s. I pointed them out and I said, “I can prove that they are not here just to ‘hang out.'” “How?” “I’ll go get one of their phone numbers.” It helps to be a little tight, and remember I don’t have to take my shoes off to count the total number of times I have asked for a phone number in public. I was 46 the first time I did that in my life. But in for a dime …

        I went to the bar and ordered the drinks, standing next to both of them. I smiled at both. I got cyanide back from one, bemusement from the other. Being brilliant, I asked the friendly one (not the executioner) if she was a Skins or Broncos fan. We chitchatted. Drinks came.

        Then I went full Darkhorse. She knew I was buying two drinks so I was on a date. I said, “Maybe you’ll give me your number so we can meet up sometime.” I always have a pen in my breast pocket and a couple of 3×5 notecards in my jeans. I handed her the card, the pen, got her number after 10 seconds of stunned giggling and groaning by the unfriendly one, who said, “I can’t believe you’re doing this.” I returned to my date. I put the number on the table, kissed her full on the lips, the first time I had kissed her, and noted, “Like I said.” Darkhorse and Scray FTW.

        We ‘hung out’ for three hours (which of course had nothing to do with the SMP, because we were just ‘hanging out’) and after about two hours the ASD comments began. At hour three I said I had to book. I took her home. I went upstairs.

        This was a good day. It had it’s awkward moments, but it was better than sitting at home with oneitis about the woman I dropped earlier in the week, the first woman in years I trusted, because she was always too busy. (I’m sorta lovelorn. It happens even to the mature man.) The comments and discussions of “high energy” v. “low energy”, “chosen” v. “chooser” appear to fit a few days of high-ego-risk experimentation.

        Either that or I’m in the middle of a wholesale personality meltdown, and my disinterest in the polite suppressions by which I lived my life until now are indicative of a mental pathology. Does it matter? Not much.

        My takeaways are: in the SMP, direct all conversation, assume every female is ‘available’ to the right man, and the moment a woman says “I’m not a slut” or some such bullshit, leave the bar for the main event.

        Thanks for all the comments, which have mostly educated me. Although Lily, you presume way, way too much and I’m disappointed in you as a result.


      • Bravo on the good weekend.

        a) Not really understanding how a phone call is “risky”. Unless you are breaking cultural conventions in a bad a way, a message that you want to go out with a women at X time at Y place, delivered directly and confidently is the right move. It either receives compliance, or it doesn’t. And that’s based either on her sexual interest in your (she likes you), or interest in some ulterior goal (she wants something from you). Women and beta males probe for attraction clues by indirect communication. “We should hang out some time” isn’t actually asking a women out on a date; it’s probing for interest. “I’m grabbing cocktails next Thursday’s a Lou Lou’s, you have to join” is a compliance test.

        b) Curious who your cyanide-thrower was. Guessing it was the less attractive of the two women. Here is something to chew on: Let’s say you are a high quality male and you approach a pair of girls who share a visible discrepancy in attractiveness, and you immediately go direct on the more attractive female (“I want your number”)…there is a high probability that the ugly girl will feign astonishment and attempt to sabotage the exchange: “Excuse me, we’re having a conversation! / How could you just ask her so directly so direct?! / Who are you?!” Here is what is actually happening: You actually aren’t breaking any social rules. You’re experiencing a primal evolutionary reaction where females sabotage the reproductive behavior of other females so that tribal resources aren’t diverted to her reproductive competition.

        Similar behavior in chimps:

        “By being quiet during copulation, (female chimps) ensure other females don’t know they are mating with a good quality male, so they don’t have other females coming along and attacking them and stopping them from mating.”


      • a. Risky because it required her to identify her home address to a stranger, met online: risky to her. But I wanted to establish control of the date, manage the post-date logistics, and frankly, if she sounded dull on the phone I would have cancelled. So I called her. (She had already googled me and decided I wasn’t an axe murderer.)

        b. You are correct. Cyanide-eyes was the chubby. If the evil eye could kill, etc.


      • just like chimps. she knew she couldn’t win, so she made the situation lose lose for everyone. in the jungle there is only so much access to resources, so it’s a zero sum game.

        were you with another male it would have likely eliminated her sabotage attempt.

        sound like you meet women by yourself so probably the best approach is to hit the high ranking saboteur with an immediate compliment “you have great taste in shoes” and then immediately engage her friend only.

        if she gives you cyanide eyes before the approach, try this “don’t look at me like that, I actually came over here to compliment you on your taste in shoes.” her social high social rank is solidified, immediately engage the friend.


      • Either that or I’m in the middle of a wholesale personality meltdown, and my disinterest in the polite suppressions by which I lived my life until now are indicative of a mental pathology. Does it matter? Not much.

        Nah, you’re just open to learning and growing, pushing yourself outside your comfort zone, in a way that is unusual for a man in his 50s. Very commendable.


  15. Hi All, we interrupt this thread to bring an update to the previous “beta of the month” post October 10th 2013 involving the Hong Kong crying boyfriend here:

    If you had any doubts about his “betaness” read this story.

    He was arrested outside a Hong Kong court yesterday after he attacked a local female news photographer for taking pictures of him after his girlfriend received a probation order for slapping him.

    Beta: He allows himself to be slapped in public by his girlfriend. Video goes viral. Gf charged with assault, goes to court gets probation. Hapless beta attacks female news photog doing her job.

    Photo here:

    A man who had just left a hearing into an incident in which he was repeatedly slapped by his girlfriend in public ran into more trouble.
    Chioo Wing-ming, 23, was arrested for common assault and criminal damage after he allegedly kicked a female news photographer to the ground outside Kowloon City Magistrates’ Court.

    Chioo was with his girlfriend, Cheng Yan-na, 20, who was earlier placed by Deputy Magistrate Chu Chung-keung on a HK$1,000 good behavior bond for 12 months.

    Her case stemmed from a video uploaded this month in which she was seen slapping her boyfriend – who was kneeling down and crying – 14 times in public and berating him for “bringing girls home.”


  16. High energy game of course runs the risk of being tooled into dancing monkey game so don’t get carried away.

    My favorite low energy game, of sorts, is Aleister game. It’s low energy in that he doesn’t draw a lot of attention in larger groups, but easily DHVs and gets women into these apparently riveting small group or (later) one-on-one conversations. Hardly laconic though, he’s an effortless conversationalist with a calm intensity of sorts.

    On a lower level, it might be that he’s adept at focusing female-nourishing attention in bursts on his, er, victim while leading the convo. (I can’t very well openly stopwatch him, but … maybe it boils down to a reinforcement schedule with intermittent rewards.)


  17. on October 25, 2013 at 2:47 am Greatest Beta

    Field report:

    This is a funny one. Went out with a buddy tonight in Newport CA.

    Was having a smoke, girl bumped in and said “sorry” I said “no your not”
    Her: “I really am”
    Me: “I don’t believe you”
    Her: blah blah blah blanter
    Me: I like to take risks
    Her: me too
    Me: let’s see who can swim across the harbor first (begin unbuttoning my shirt)
    Her: she begins to Unadress as well

    I got the make out within 5 minutes of opening!!! Record for sure. Her friends pulled her away

    That was awesome. Straight spiking the temp super fast 🙂


  18. “Low energy is sexy, but vulnerable to competing distractions. High energy is captivating, but vulnerable to self-sabotage.”

    Very well said.

    First off massive props and respect to Buena for going out and experimenting for himself. I may disagree or think he didn’t get the experiment quite right or whatever, but I have all sorts of respect for guys who say “okay well let’s go test this out instead of arguing online about theory”. So good on you.

    Second off, for guys writing Field Reports in general, you don’t have to name names and places. Just give us the vibe of the environment and the vibe of the city you’re in etc. When you start naming specific locations and specific days/times you were there, you’re risking people narrowing down who you are (from creepy Internet dudes/feminists/etc. who hate us and would happily Facebook-stalk you to message girls you’ve talked to, to girls who stumble across your shit by pure fluke, etc.).

    When you do that, you also inadvertantly “dox” other guys…like someone in the comments here posted what might be the name of the successful CEO guy. Maybe that guy’s a douche, or maybe he did some lame shit at the bar, it doesn’t matter, that guy shouldn’t be having his online rep fucked with incase it complicates his professional/personal life etc. Maybe he’s got a wife at home that thought he was with his buddies last night but someone googling his name stumbles across this shit and is like “oh that guy was out boozing it up with some slutty girls”…that shit ain’t the internet’s business.

    So keep your shit annonymous. I’m not saying this just for Buena ’cause he’s old (no offense lol) and is probably established enough that he doesn’t care who knows what he’s up to, but the new guys who still have to build a career and life in general, there’s no reason to drop names. “This rich CEO dude”, “I was at this high-end lounge with business types”, etc.

    Aaaaaaaaaanyway, I’m stuck inside tonight (saving my energy for Halloween week, my fav time of year lol), so here’s an in-depth breakdown of high/low energy:

    First off, some definitions:

    – Laconic – James Bond, one word answers, slow speaking, only say what’s necessary, letting silences hang, etc.

    – Verbose – Russel Brand, spitting out verbal diahrrea, lots of talking, filling silences, barraging the girl with words, etc.

    – Passive – not actively pushing the interaction towards a lay, being happy with an “interaction”, reacting to your environment

    – Pro-active – actively pushing the interaction towards a lay, trying to fuck her, not just get a number or a “chat”, making your environment react to you

    Now as I’ve said before it’s important to understand that how you act in the bar is not necessarily which type you are. Think about how you act when you’re pre-drinking with your buddies before the bar…THAT’S who you are. Say you’re playing xbox and having a drink before you hit the bar…are you the guy talking shit to everyone? Are you the guy that sits silently only dropping one or two comments? Are you the guy who’s cracking rude jokes? Are you the guy who’s feeling uncomfortable because you don’t know some of the people? Are you the guy meeting/greeting the new guys and making sure they’re a part of the conversation? How are you around your family at dinner? Do you say one or two words? Do you tell stories and yap away? This is who you really are and a big part of game is being congruent to who you are, instead of trying to act how you think the girl wants you to act. Hot girls can sniff out incongruence, it’s a part of their daily survival because so many guys around them are full of shit trying to get something from them. If you don’t talk much around your friends/family and you’d give your best bro-friend a Jumbotron reply, then you are naturally a laconic person. If not, you’re some level of verbose. Bring that to the table and embrace it.

    So there are actually 4 types of game, not just “high-energy and low-energy”, which is where the disconnect is coming in for a lot of people (like I always say, any concept that gets unpredictable results can be broken down further):

    1) passive, laconic (low-energy, beta, unattractive)
    2) pro-active, laconic (low-energy, alpha, attractive)

    3) passive, verbose (high-energy, beta, unattractive)
    4) pro-active, verbose (high-energy, alpha, attractive)

    Examples of each type:

    1) passive, laconic (low-energy, beta):

    Alright I’m gonna’ shit on this one first because this is the Manosphere fucking FAVORITE. Every guy on half the forums thinks he’s this badass James Bond. But I’ve read a lot of Manosphere Field Reports and they are full of delusions. This is what most guys think “low-energy” game is.

    Don’t worry, I’m going to make fun of PUAs later as well, so don’t let this make you feel bad lol.

    But first a disclaimer: Like Scray says, if you’re established as high-value, you can be passive (laconic or verbose) because often the girl will be pro-active. But understand that if you just go in wearing a suit and post up against the bar, you are NOT high-value…you look exactly the same as the “passive, laconic” loser beta. You are fooling yourself if you think you look high-value because your pocket square matches your socks, and you know that you’re getting approached by 5-7s at best, and going home fucking them and telling yourself and your boys that you were just slumming it on a lark that night when in reality you were simply not high-value enough to get the attention of higher-quality girls, and you weren’t being pro-active enough to demonstrate your high-value to get them.

    The reason you looking decent and wearing a nice fitted suit etc. as you post up at the bar isn’t high-value is because hot girls are SURROUNDED by guys who offer that at the bare minimum, and/or who ONLY offer that and have nothing else going on.

    That’s why I say you get approached by 5-7s, because to THOSE women you are high-value…but to the legit 8+ girls, you are just another dude in a nice suit, like the 10 guys texting her and the 4 guys buying her drinks right now. You have to be pro-active to stand out because you are bringing nothing to the table that an 8+ hasn’t seen a thousand times.

    That said, this is okay, this isn’t me shitting on you as a man and saying you’re worthless and fucked for life, it’s me saying take a SERIOUS ego-less cold hard objective look at your vibe when you’re out and ask yourself “am I actually getting the attention of the girls that I ACTUALLY want and choose, yes or no?” If the honest answer is a no, then it’s time to be pro-active. If you’ve been going home solo and/or with girls that you wouldn’t show off to your buddies, guess what, you’re not “good but slumming it”, you are BAD and it’s time for a reality check so you can stop wasting your nights out getting sub-par results.

    This is what “passive, laconic” Manosphere guys THINK they look like:

    And this is what they think/hope will happen:

    In reality what generally happens is after an hour or two of standing around trying to look cool, one of these approaches him:

    …usually a little tipsy/drunk because she had to work up the courage to come over and I mean, she’s had an hour or two of drinking with her girls while he was standing there looking cool. Usually she’ll open with something like “I like your suit!!”, maybe even put her hands on his chest to feel the suit (and stay balanced, since she’s tipsy).

    The guy’s first thought will usually be “ah fuck, get away ugly girl, I want that hot girl over there that I’ve been trying to make eye-contact with for an hour but who isn’t paying attention to me at all, or has made eye-contact with me and is waiting for me to take action but I’m too cool for that and waiting for her to come over to me so I seem more alpha badass”.

    But that girl will be persistent, he’ll realize he’s probably not going to get the hot girl he wanted because his passive “look cool” game doesn’t seem to be working tonight, and it’s been a while since he stuck his dick in something, and this chick is all up in his face so he starts flirting back. He rationalizes it like “well, I’m only doing this as a laugh.” and “I’m only doing this because it’ll be so easy, this is a slam dunk, I’ll even make this chick buy me a drink lolol I’m really a pimp despite slumming it tonight, wait’ll I tell the boys how much this chick wanted me lol”

    The other option is that they don’t get the attention they expected/wanted, so they then, again “for a laugh” of course, bail to a shittier meat-market bar in their suits where the crowd is dressed shittier so they figure that will raise their value, but with that comes shittier girls…but that’s okay, ’cause they’re just doing it for a laugh, you see.

    So why does this happen? Why doesn’t the smokin hottie ditch her high-value social circle to come over and open him? Why do ugly average girls come over and approach him?

    Because these guys are giving off the exact same low-value signals (not leading or going after what they want, waiting for something to happen, reacting to their environment and the women that conveniently approach them and not taking action when girls don’t, settling for whatever approaches them and rationalizing away their shitty results like a fat chick who says she didn’t want any Valentine’s Day card ANYWAY humph!! lol) that these guys are giving off:

    (the guy in the striped polo):

    They’re just giving off those signals in a nicer suit. 😛 Again, if you have established value, you can be passive…but again, wearing a nice suit and having a cool lifestyle does not give you established value because until the girl actually interacts with you all she sees is a dude in a nice suit who’s standing around holding up the wall/bar, taking no action, and not making his environment react to him.

    2) pro-active, laconic (low-energy, alpha)

    If you’re one of those naturally laconic guys, this is what you want to aim towards. This means you’re still staying mysterious or using short answers etc., but you’re pushing the interaction forward sexually. Everything you say is geared toward moving forward or getting a reaction out of her (VS you reacting to her), staying rock-solid through shit-tests, and this involves a lot of body-language and laser eye-contact as well.

    Some examples of “pro-active, laconic”…the key is in 1) how they force the girl to react to them, and 2) how they’re always moving toward fucking…also not how they make a lot of eye-contact, their body-language is stoic, they talk slowly, leave lots of pauses, etc.:


    The jist is that the girls they interact with feel like they’re playing catch-up (reacting) to him…like he has a purpose/goal (whether that’s sex, or to get someone to do something he wants them to do in general) and everything in his vibe is pushing towards that while she stumbles along trying to get her footing.

    Even with men, they’re pushing forward, forcing the men around them to react to them, often by asking questions in breaking-rapport. Like in this clip Tyler is dropping shit like “Do you know what a duvet is…” and letting the silence hang. “Just ask, man. (silence)” “Is it a problem for you to ask?” He cuts Jack off and says things that force him to react and feel like he’s on his heels trying to get his footing as Tyler pushes toward the outcome he wants.

    THIS vibe is extremely seductive to women. The problem with most guys is that they THINK they’re being this, but objectively what they actually do is stand around trying to look cool and as soon as a woman interacts with them they either burst out a bunch of talking (showing that they ARE actually talkative, but were putting on an incongruent shtick by not engaging everyone around them earlier, which is unattractive), or they keep the laconic speech patterns/vibe but they don’t actually push the interaction forward…at best they take it sideways, engaging the girl but letting her lead the conversation or test them or screen them instead of them leading the conversation and screening and testing her. Essentially they end up on the “defensive” instead of her ending up on the defensive, which equals him reacting to her, instead of her reacting to him, which equals him reacting to his environment (passive, beta) instead of him forcing his environment to react to him (pro-active, alpha).

    So you still feel like you’re a laconic dude and you’ve read both 1 and 2 of my points so far, realized my ultimate wisdom and suffered the inner embarrassment of someone hitting way too close to home calling out how your nights out actually go, and you want to fix that shit and get out of category 1 and into this much better category. So how do you go from “passive, laconic” to “pro-active, laconic”?

    The key is in knowing what you want, and leading/pushing toward it. You’re like a train at full speed…she can throw up some resistance but you’re going to just plow right through it while she tries to scurry out of the way. Start qualifying her more, start testing her more. Screen her for qualities and don’t let her get away with not living up to those qualities. Legitimately be judgemental and force her to defend herself. Shit-test her. Let silences hang in the air while she scurries around in her head for an answer to your piercing questions. Approach her as soon as you see her, cut through the crowd, take what you want. Interrupt whatever she’s doing, it’s not as important as you. Force her and the environment around you to react to you. Chat with the people around you, even if you’re just making short laconic statements…show that you’re high-value and that people like you, but that you’d rather talk one on one with someone in a deep conversation, than chat up the entire bar. Engage the people around you in deeper conversations, not surface-level fluff. Ask questions that make people think. Scold a woman for her actions as an opener. Let her worry whether you’re mad at her, and then be relieved that you’re not. This is the style where you ask a deep question that people feel compelled to ramble off a long answer, and you learn more about them than they know about you.

    Both 1 and 2 are laconic, but how pro-active you are is what makes the difference. The problem with being laconic is that your sub-communications better be tight as FUCK, because you’re not giving her anything else to judge you on. You’d better be locking laser eye-contact, staring into her fucking soul. Your body-language better be chill and non-fidgety, unafraid to grab her and pull her in and position her how and where you want her while you talk, with rock-solid belief that she’ll follow.

    The other problem is that a lot of this is hard to fake if you don’t legitimately have abundance with women…you have to BE judgemental and screening. She has to believe that when you say “Do you like (such and such)?” that there is a WRONG answer to that question that will make you lose interest in her. She has to be a little bit afraid that she doesn’t quite have your approval or that she could lose it with one wrong move.

    So a big key in this is knowing exactly what you want. Sit down and write it out. Write down 10 physical qualities you want in a woman (blonde, certain fashion sense, etc.) and then write down 10 personality qualities you want in a woman (positive, out-going, shy, sassy, ability to cook, healthy gym habits, etc.). These are whatever YOU are attracted to and would want in a long-term relationship. Then when you’re out, you screen a girl for those qualities…if a girl doesn’t live up to some of them you don’t have to tell her to fuck off and lose the lay, but you DO have to make sure she understands that she’s on thin ice. Ideally you should be giving off a vibe where she might not know how to cook but now that you’ve let her know you don’t approve of that, she wants to run home and dig out a recipe book and LEARN how to cook.

    This is the vibe that guys like James Bond, Don Draper, etc. give off…but most guys jumble categories 1 and 2 and act like 1 instead of 2, because they don’t have the inner framework to support being 2.

    Also if you’re trying to be this category, you can’t be gaming and fucking and number-closing uglies, or girls who don’t fit into your preferred qualities at all. That means no rationalizing that shit away as “just for a laugh” or “as a slump-buster” or “because it was easy” etc. Every time you do that, whether anyone sees it or not, you’re teaching your brain that your standards are not REALLY standards and you’re getting one step further from being congruent to this category. If you don’t abide by your standards, then you don’t HAVE standards.

    So let’s move into the verbose categories:

    3) passive, verbose (high-energy, beta)

    This is the “dancing monkey”. This is the newbie (and often intermediate/advanced, sadly) PUA. This is what everyone pictures when someone says “be high-energy”. This is the unattractive clown, the approval-seeking fool, the loser that girls allow to entertain them for a few minutes but don’t actually want to fuck.


    “Meat” in this video, possibly the most painful thing you’ll ever watch:

    Both of these fucking guys lol:

    Basically any guy learning pickup that you see out at your local bar is this lol Obviously this is not just super un-attractive, but it’s even repulsive to guys to watch. I didn’t even want to look up anymore examples because it’s just too painful and I feel bad for the guys as well as loathing them.

    The reason this is unattractive isn’t that they talk a lot, it’s that everything they say is supplicative, approval-seeking, trying to hold her attention, begging for scraps, etc. It all reeks of scarcity and insecurity and a lack of a strong inner core. It’s also not leading the interaction anywhere, not creating any sexual tension, and the girl is thinking “he seems like a nice guy I guess”, not “wow I want that guy to bend me over this bar and fuck my brains out”.

    This guy will get results, because he’s basically playing the numbers game and he sticks in there as long as he can, but most of the numbers he gets will either be flakes, or be girls who expect him to take her on a date because they think “well he’s not sexy but maybe he can be my provider beta male while I fuck someone better”, or the girls just give them the number out of social pressure or not wanting to be rude or being drunk etc.

    I would put a solid 90% of the guys that approach girls on any given night at the bar in this category.

    Last but not least we have:

    4) pro-active, verbose (high-energy, alpha)

    This is your Russel Brands, your John Mayers, your Robert Downey Jr’s, etc. The key to notice is that, just like the “pro-active, laconic” type, this type also forces their environment to react to them, puts everyone on their heels trying to catch their balance, etc.

    Another key feature of this type, which is where Buena’s experiment was off-track, is that this type self-amuses. Everything they do is for their own amusement. They like to fuck with people, use innuendo and sarcasm and go off on little tangents, they talk about whatever’s on their mind, and don’t care whether the girl stays or goes because they’re having fun. This is kind of the opposite of the “pro-active, laconic” type in that this type doesn’t really care about “getting to know” the girl and asking her deep questions about herself…he’s getting to know the girl by seeing how she reacts to him shaking up her world.

    Also a lot of these guys use dead-pan. They rattle off some stuff in that tone of voice and with that straight-face where the girl has to think “wait, is he serious?” and basically he’s forcing her to think, which is forcing her to react to him, instead of reacting to her. They tend to have very strong frame-control too, and suck the people around them into their frame.

    And finally, because they’re pro-active, they’re always pushing forward…usually to sex, but also just to whatever their goals are (and their goal is often just to shake people up because they know that’ll translate to attraction):

    People love when Stifler comes on-screen because as soon as you see him you KNOW he’s going to fuck shit up and send everyone around him into a reactive chaos. Just seeing his character appear on-screen, instantly you know he’s going to have everyone on their heels trying to keep their balance:

    Here’s John Mayer repeatedly AMOG’ing Kanye West, possibly the biggest ego in the world…there’s also a good lesson on congruence in there when he explains why black people like him:

    What do you do if you realize upon reading this that you’re stuck in category 3 and you’re tired of asexual interactions and flakey numbers and girls who like you but don’t want to FUCK you, and you want to transition to category 4? The keys are in using breaking-rapport tonality, self-amusing, making statements instead of asking questions, expressing yourself and who you are instead of asking her questions about who she wants or if she approves of things, total outcome independence, etc. Say controversial things unapologetically. Force her, and the people around you, to react to you. Be the center of attention and embrace it. Understand that other guys watching wish they were taking action like you, and girls watching wish that they were being allowed to get swept up in your energy the way the person you’re talking to is. Take improv classes and learn to riff off what people say and redirect the flow of the conversation. Understand that you’re giving value just by being you, and that it’s okay if some people don’t like you. Stick by your opinions, never change your view or your behavior/actions to supplicate to a girl. Completely entertain yourself when you’re out…even if you make an ass out of yourself or say something stupid, act as if it was the smartest awesomest thing in the world and other people will fall into that frame.

    And most importantly: LEAD/PUSH THE INTERACTION SOMEWHERE, like to you sticking your dick in her, not to “a nice conversation” or “a pretty solid number”. Get up in her space and escalate as you talk, drop innuendo, add in kino, be an unstoppable force that has the crowd around you going “holy shit look at that guy go!” and has the girls around you telling your target “omg kiss him already!!!”

    So there it is. Hopefully this clears up some discussion. Happy Halloween. Get out there and have some fun, every girls’ ASD is on holiday and it’s the sluttiest time of the year. No going for gay phone numbers, go all or nothing for the makeout and Same Night Lays. Escalate hard and fast, they aren’t putting on those slutty outfits to NOT get some dick. Be pro-active, whether you’re laconic or verbose.


    • Epic comment! Dudes could save a few grand on courses and just bookmark this comment. Well done.


      • on October 25, 2013 at 10:16 am ain't nuttin but a gansta partayyy

        no kidding. surprised though at how much he keeps putting here and people STILL don’t take it in or continually argue against his points


      • +100 and much appreciated, Ya.


      • on October 25, 2013 at 11:07 am Lucky White Male


        A lot of this comment, I see INTENTION keep coming up one way or another.

        Guys are not laying the line because we are scared, over and over, in small ways and large ways, of getting rejected. Rejection is what is stopping us from showing Intention.

        A very good recent Tyler video on Intent. Around 9:50 are the how-to tips to build very strong intentional “energy”


    • Awesome and amazing comment- thanks-!


    • LOL and on that awesome knowledge bomb drop… I’m gonna have a happy Halloween ahahaha


    • @YaReally.

      Great comment. Just an update. Went to a party this evening and my now ex gf showed up. I blanked her. I wasn’t rude, but in my mind I thought of her as one of those other girls I just avoid or ignore.

      When I did catch her eye, she looked sad, really sad, the blood was drained from her face and her eyes were like saucers.

      I felt….nothing.

      But I did want to know what you thought of my last reply to her clear shit test of the angry email after I thanked her and a bunch of other people for helping with my big event—even though after buying a lot of the decorations, she broke up and blew me off:

      Her: “Pls remove me from the Facebook group”

      Me: ” I thanked everyone who helped.”

      I thought ignoring her would seem butt-hurt and angry.

      Responding directly would be beta.

      This was a way of being firm in my frame without showing I really cared.

      Did this work in triggering her hamster to wonder: “Why isn’t he more pissed off?”


      • on October 25, 2013 at 12:49 pm the latent sadist

        it worked to trigger your hamster to wonder: “what does she think of me?”


      • I respect what you did. But then I think good manners are essential, and enhance, rather than diminish a man. You can (and you did) cold-shoulder her after the appropriate recognition.

        She can be as unhappy as she wishes now. You turned out to have class and character. Cinderella will have to do some major selling to get a coffee date with Prince Charming now. BFD. Women need to own their own behavior.


      • @Sadist. My own journey from AFC to where I am now is astronomical. Three or 4 years ago had this happened my reaction would have been everything that is opposite to this: angry, hurt, drama. She would have reacted in kind thinking what a scary angry dude.

        Now i’m doing all the right things: no contact, chatting up other girls, resolving in my mind this is over and what she did is unacceptable, not rationalizing things etc etc. Guys here would say “oh you’re being beta”. But the reality is being hurt by this is not beta, it’s being human. How I’ve chosen to act and my focus is what I’m judging myself by in this case. The “oneitis” is in heirent in all of us in our journey to Alphadom. But acting like you don’t give a shit publicly, avoiding awkward social situations which might result in beta-backsliding or butt-hurt behavior, falling into the traps are what takes huge will-power.

        Now I know the “rules”….my question which BV also gave insights to is whether it was appropriate to respond the way I did.

        I ask because I want to learn.

        I read many comments here from guys and often wonder do they actually meet and bang girls? It’s easy to FTOW, it’s easy to say “bitch, forget her”. It’s much harder to find a 5 word throwaway that demonstrates you heard the question but weren’t provoked into the angry response that question clearly prompted.

        That question was meant to create more drama. Last night’s big moon face and sad eyes demonstrate for me that she is like a cat who shit the bed.

        But being a man doesn’t mean freaking out, nor does it mean being understanding like a parent. I’m now struggling with game in LTRs vs gaming a girl that I have no investment in.

        I think it’s very easy to post on how to react in this situation or that if it’s a pick-up. The more day-to-day shit tests, the withdrawls, the drama—all that requires a lot more emotional intelligence that game offers but that we as guys often overlook because we see game a producing output, not outcomes: a better, more confident and attractive you.


    • Energy:
      – Laconic – James Bond, one word answers, slow speaking, only say what’s necessary, letting silences hang, etc.

      – Verbose – Russel Brand, spitting out verbal diahrrea, lots of talking, filling silences, barraging the girl with words, etc.

      – Passive – not actively pushing the interaction towards a lay, being happy with an “interaction”, reacting to your environment

      – Pro-active – actively pushing the interaction towards a lay, trying to fuck her, not just get a number or a “chat”, making your environment react to you

      So there are actually 4 types of game, not just “high-energy and low-energy”, which is where the disconnect is coming in for a lot of people (like I always say, any concept that gets unpredictable results can be broken down further):

      1) passive, laconic (low-energy, beta, unattractive)
      2) pro-active, laconic (low-energy, alpha, attractive)

      3) passive, verbose (high-energy, beta, unattractive)
      4) pro-active, verbose (high-energy, alpha, attractive)

      Thanks YaR.

      I’m a laconic sort, but I see that I still have work to do in changing from passive to proactive. I’m getting there — I now do kino and girls enjoy it — but I just keep failing to close except on the rare occasions when they initiate (which has its own problems). And by closing I do NOT mean number-close… that shit’s easy and doesn’t really mean much anyway.


    • on October 25, 2013 at 4:44 pm FuriousFerret

      “Another key feature of this type, which is where Buena’s experiment was off-track, is that this type self-amuses. Everything they do is for their own amusement. They like to fuck with people, use innuendo and sarcasm and go off on little tangents, they talk about whatever’s on their mind, and don’t care whether the girl stays or goes because they’re having fun.”

      I have done this since I was teen and I get constantly hated on by other guys for this. The thing is I’m not trying to mean, I simply trying to have fun and I’m really saying what I think.

      People call me ‘opinionated’, ‘you can’t say that’, huff with frustration. Girls will actual respond really well but sometimes I push it too far and they get pissed and leave. However, alternative guys like musicians, ‘fuck ups’, artistic people I get along with but trad alphas try to fuck with me and basically threaten.

      This has backfired too where I tried to go along to get along to avoid grief but since I don’t do it right, the boring beta types still find fault with me.

      The way out of this I believe is to go further in. Not half ass it.

      Unlike a lot of people here, I’m actually an extrovert. It’s just at some points in my life because of various factors such of an extreme conservative environment that frowns on outgoing ‘offensive’ behavior and big trad alphas basically threatening me with violence that I got into people pleasing mode and it all goes the hell when you do that.

      A lot my previous issues pre sphere was that I would falter when called out but I push back way more than I ever did before. I do appear stronger and way better than before and I win over people, but I tend to make enemies pretty quickly too but interesting enough it’s about the same amount that I had before. I’m the type of guy that will get hate wherever I go and believe me it’s not justified because with people that consider cool I never have problems with. It’s always with straight edge beta types, men and women.

      When I’m on socially, I resemble the Russell Brand, Stifler, Hank Moody way way more than Bond, Draper. I have even tried more stoic stuff and it simply doesn’t work for me. The thing is I think that Bond, Draper is what most people want. Russell Brand forces you to accept him and has a small minority that identifies with him and he gets a lot of hate.


    • Isn’t this:

      “Ideally you should be giving off a vibe where she might not know how to cook but now that you’ve let her know you don’t approve of that, she wants to run home and dig out a recipe book and LEARN how to cook.” really the context of all ideal negs?

      IOW, aren’t you setting up the context in which the man is evaluating the woman, the man is gently indicating that the woman has some self-improvement or other obligation to perform, for the man?

      Negs are tough, we talked about them a month ago. I don’t banter well so I just try to observe something and make light of it, so that the woman looks at herself as slightly goofy or slightly deficient in some way.


      In terms of “laconic, pro-active”, which has just gone into my pre-evening checklist that I review on my phone before going out: In my worlds, it seems unnecessary to be constantly angling, manipulating, pushing, directing for the sex. All the work is in introduction, development of comfort (charm), suggestion of an alternative locale (you guys call this logistics, I call it the hotel or the house). But basically, it seems to follow a very smooth progression, with the degree of difficulty (if we were charting this on a graph, Y is difficulty, X is time) sloping downward rapidly.

      In fact, I have to remind myself, with my women friends, to NOT talk about the lay. They presume the lay. So my talking about it breaks the spell. I do believe women decide immediately if a guy is someone she will kiss. I don’t see how a man being overt helps her maintain her interest.


      I just spent five hours doing what you and Darkhorse prescribed:

      “Approach her as soon as you see her, cut through the crowd, take what you want.”

      for the first time in my life. I went out in DC and visited a couple of the super-noisy clubs where I am easily 25 years older than the mean. My normal deal is to look — and freeze. (Haha, sometimes they would come up to me.) I don’t normally drink whiskey at 4:34 in the morning, but it’s appropriate today. Very stressful. However, very effective. I think it will stop being stressful in a month or so. Really appreciate the coaching.


      • “IOW, aren’t you setting up the context in which the man is evaluating the woman, the man is gently indicating that the woman has some self-improvement or other obligation to perform, for the man?”

        Looks (from the woman) in exchange for commitment (from the man) is prostitution. “I am with you because I love your ass, babe” is degrading. Give her some kind of usefulness in your life and things get easier for her.


  19. on October 25, 2013 at 8:09 am Greatest Beta

    Field report:

    Went to woodys in Newport last night. Wild crowd but good one.

    Having a smoke a girl bumps into me.
    Her: sorry
    Me: no your not
    Her: no I really am
    Me: I don’t believe you
    Her: why not
    Me: cuz I was trying to burn you on purpose (touch her stomach with my finger)
    Her: lolzzlolz
    Me: I like to take risks
    Her: me too
    Me: oh yea? Lets swim in the harbor ill race you (begin to unbutton my shirt)
    Her: ok I’m down
    Me: I pull her closer and start playing with her hair

    Made out with her within 5 minutes of interacting. Her friends pulled her away. Fastest escalation in my life!!


  20. on October 25, 2013 at 8:45 am wolverinejesus

    BV…don’t let [redacted by request of BV] intimidate you. He’s a dweeb and is clueless around women.


    • Oh, I know. I know several women who’ve been pursued by him, been on the plane, etc.

      I’ve had two meetings with him and I’ve seen the borderline autism from 36″. I still have to say: the guy saved a company I never thought could be saved. And made himself extraordinarily wealthy as a result. I respect him greatly for his business achievements. I don’t think much of his abstract thinking ability or lifestyle. But he did earn every single penny and deserves credit for that.


      • BV I’ve enjoyed this discussion you started (last 2-3 days).
        I can relate to your funny hypothetical about being aggressive with women in a Whole Foods in Fairfax County VA.
        About 2 days ago you mentioned you can’t watch Tom Cruise without thinking of certain anecdotes. I lived in LA/Hollywood for years, and I’m curious about your TC tales. Maybe you give tell us the general gist of what they reveal?
        [Did you know film crews on set w/TC nicknamed him “Laser Head”? ha ha]


  21. Boy, I’m glad I don’t live in the Northeast.
    The cunty/bitchy powergames are already bad enough here, Washington/NYC -no thanks.
    There are indeed a (very) small handful of women over 35 who still got it – except for the hands, they can’t fake the hands – but the overwhelming majority of them are married and quite serious about it.
    The few who are 35+, still attractive, not taken
    AND not loaded down with 70,000 megatons of baggage have no interest whatsoever in men their age or older and will go exclusively after guys 16-28.
    In a somewhat ironic twist, competition for those women can be even fiercer than it is for the young hotties. Go figure.


    • good god the hands– i still remember seeing cameron diaz’s claw in what happens in vegas or whatever. shocking.


    • But you don’t have to deal with them. You fill find however in specific neighborhoods or watering holes, more beautiful women per capita, than in pretty much any area of the world.


  22. Greatest Beta

    Yah, Woody’s is definitely where you’d run total asshole/high energy game, it’s packed to the wall with younger 21-25 girls and mostly frat dudes. If you can stand the environment it’s target rich. Pro-tip, since it’s a college crowd that doorman never gets greased, you can skip the line and have easy in and outs when it gets out of control for a tiny amount of greasing (10-20max). Girls love to watch guys grease too.


  23. If there was an Al Qaeda god, Cafe Milano would catch a truck bomb.


  24. It’s funny the person who wrote in here pretends that he doesn’t like the scene he’s a part of, and yet he’s doing everything in his power to conquer it. He makes fun of CEOs, etc. and yet he’s enamored by them. He feels inferior to them, which is what pick-up is: a bunch of guys feeling inferior to others and trying to find ways to catch up.


    • What is the point of this rudeness? BV clearly knows who he is and what he wants out of life. For him, his identity is self generated – not given to him by others. It ought to be obvious from the manner of his posts that he is an intelligent, accomplished individual. We can see this most of all from his attitude rather than his anecdotes. Open, curious and humble about this area of study in which he is not an expert, yet is applying himself well to learn.

      It is unfortunate that the lowest common denominator prevails on Internet discussion sites. It is common for those capable of serious discussion to lose interest due to the children appearing with their crayons and posting graffiti. I for one would be delighted to read more about what BV learns in applying these “game” concepts to a particular niche. I hope he is not discouraged by some of the comments here.


  25. Amused by this thread and its arriviste assumption that ladies with a few more rings in the trunk and some rather shocking sun-damage from their salad days in St. Barts are somehow more “sophisticated” than a sweet pink baby in her last year of high school: the notion is even more comical than it is wrong.

    There is no “intellectual” badinage much less intelligent conversation with a woman who is still worth fucking; of all the cliches of romance none better suits the vanity of women and the hard to dispel starry-eyed stupidity of men than the laughable idea that there exist magical hags smarter, more spirited and altogether better at desiccated 40 than they were at moist 20. This is an amazing delusion and a quintessential trope – and tell – of the diehard beta.

    The question to ask the woman duly and dully decked in her “Chanel” and knockoff Louboutins is do you have a pretty and naughty daughter? There are indeed rich and bored women who will be anything but displeased to entertain such a question after a few oily martinis and then, and only then, does the hard mug of the accomplished bitch take on the warm glow of lechery. Do not press the issue. Let it scent the air.


  26. on October 26, 2013 at 4:21 am Jon's Coffee Shop

    The contrast between Julien and those guys in Keys to the VIP is amazing. Great comparison of good game and weak game.


  27. Not only is BV beta, he is probably gay.