When To Move In For The Kiss On A First Date

Shaft writes:

I’d like your thoughts on a recent date I had.

We were introduced through family. [Ed: Never a good idea if you play the short game.] We went on one date and it went well. Started 10 PM and didn’t end until 530AM.

Conversation was free and easy and I escalated slowly throughout the evening, although I didn’t push hard enough. When I needed to demonstrate value I did.  When I told her to follow she obeyed. I dropped some good negs.  I had problems with my ATM card but she had no problem paying until I straightened them out (we visited 4-5 venues) without a fuss. We said our goodbyes.

The second date is the one I’d like you to comment on.  It was the next day and I called her and invited her out for drinks.  She told me she’d call me after dinner and kept her word.  She sounded surprised to hear from me so soon but didn’t hem or haw and we met within a half hour.  This time we found a pool hall and I displayed my superiority while gently negging her.

HER: Am I really the worst pool player you’ve ever seen?

ME: It’s kind of tough to call.  I knew this blind guy who liked to play…

She liked that one.

We moved to a lounge which had couches and single chairs. I guided her to a loveseat and she didn’t protest.

I spread out alpha style and put my arm up on the back, almost around her.  We chatted for a while, light touching, teasing.  She went to the bathroom and this is when the shit test started. I hadn’t had a real one so far that night or on the first date.

I noticed that after she returned from the bathroom another button on her shirt was undone and her hair was a little more tousled than before.  She began by complementing my overall physique, but she then started to ask why I wore my clothes a little more loosely than usual. I told her it was for comfort. She told me she couldn’t tell whether or not I was in shape.  As I was wearing a polo and an undershirt she said she could better judge if I removed the polo.

Let me say that a year ago I might have complied to a request like this without hesitating, but after some game research and restoring my manly dignity, I do not perform for women, nor do I give something for nothing. Nor would I be embarassed about what she would see. I don’t have a six pack but I’m tall, lean, with wide shoulders and v-shaped back.

I decided to see if she would put her money where her mouth was and told her if she wanted it she would have to kiss me. She said no. Right then I knew it was about control. If she had wanted an excuse to escalate she had it. I reframed by teasing her she didn’t impress me with her sales skills (she’s in sales). That bought me time to pay
and walk her out of the bar and home. It was about a forty minute walk. We had a good convo pretending to bargain over the price to see me without the outershirt.

Halfway to her place I asked her if she could do me a favor. I took off my jacket and tossed it to her. “Can you hold this for me? I’m warm.” The smile on her face was priceless. She thought she was about to get what she wanted. A few minutes later when handing me back the jacket, she made an attempt to lift up my shirt. I gently stopped her hands and feigned disappointment that she would resort to trickery.  The rest of the walk home I kept about half a step ahead.

As we reached her door I slowed but didn’t stop and said my goodbyes as I turned to continue home.  She looked stunned that I didn’t hug her or peck her on the cheek. It was cordial but minimal with no contact.

As I walked away I was proud of myself for not selling out to desperation. My gut told me following an order for her would have spelled doom, but I know I missed an opportunity somewhere. Would she say yes to another date?


Even though this question from the reader is about his second date, the title of the post is about moving in for the kiss on the first date, since it is the first date when you should get physical with a girl. The majority of kiss-less first dates lead nowhere. It is also a bad idea to schedule a second date the very next day following the first date. This reader was one of the fortunate few to dodge some self-inflicted seduction-killing obstacles. The rest of his game — such as the handling of her shit tests — was good, and probably accounted for her continued interest.

Her are some basic rules about kissing on the first date:

  1. Do not kiss her when you meet her at the start of the first date. You are not as debonair or as European as you think you are, and neither is she. A kiss upon meeting is going to feel awkward for her and for you. This goes even in those first date cases where you previously had a sloppy make-out with her in the bar on the night when you scored her digits. Actually, it goes doubly for those instances. (Previous sloppy bar make-outs reveal your hand, so your job should be to temporarily disqualify yourself so she doesn’t think you are too easy.)
  2. Do not kiss her at the end of the first date unless there was significant physical contact during the date. Multiply the awkwardness of the initial meeting kiss by ten and you will know the feeling of planting a night-ending wet one on a girl at the end of a date that was woefully free of any physical connection.
  3. Do not attempt to force a nonexistent rapport by kissing the girl. This rule applies for any date, but its disregard is most evident on the first date. Many men will try to light a fuse in their dates by moving in for the kiss sans any physical groundwork, incorrectly thinking that their shared sterling, intellectual conversation was proof enough that she was ready for kissing. They are then flummoxed when she delivers the cheek turn, the “whoa, not so fast” rejoinder, or, worse, the “what do you think you’re doing?” lawyerspeak shut-down. Instead of the smooth move these men imagined in their heads it would be, they end up lurching clumsily from chit chat at a four foot distance to a lips-probing kiss flying in at the speed of light. Kissing is an emergent property of successfully executed game; it is not a standalone game maneuver that you can run in any context. If you haven’t escalated physical touching with a girl during a date, don’t think that a kiss after three hours of arms-crossed shop talk will advance the seduction.
  4. Do not go for the first date kiss in a crowded room. Venue bounce, drink, venue bounce again, settle into a sofa at a lounge, make out. Most girls lie to themselves that they are “not that kind of girl”; why give a girl an excuse to test her self-delusions by moving in for the kiss where a huge crowd can analyze the depravity of her sluttiness?
  5. The ideal first date kiss should happen sometime in the middle of the date. Kino escalation, growing intimacy, then kissing, followed by a cooling off push-away, more light banter, reinitiated kino, etc… if you can physically peak in the middle to last third of the date, you will leave her wanting more while simultaneously avoiding the dreaded last minute kiss of desperation that poisons so many dates. Mid-date physical peaking also prevents ASD (anti-slut defense).

So to sum up, don’t kiss at the very beginning or the desperate end of a first date, don’t force a kiss if she isn’t giving indicators of interest, escalate physical contact until you ideally begin kissing her in the middle to last third of a date, and wait to kiss her when you’re settled into an intimate location (this includes a back alley if the weather is warm).

Caveat: If you are going for a bust-or-bail first date same night lay, kiss her whenever the fuck you feel like it. An end-of-official-date kiss is simply a prelude to a beginning-of-unofficial-date night of fornication.

The ideal kiss window should open effortlessly if your game is tight. Girls who are being seduced properly *want* to be kissed. Always check for dilating pupils, hair twisting, leg opening, lip licking, heel dangling, head cocking, bar stool swiveling, drink swilling, incidental thigh touching, and hand on chin head propping.

To the reader: it’s hard to know if she’ll agree to a third date based on how you described the second date ending. It looks like you fell into the trap of overgaming to compensate for some fuck-ups you may have done on the first date, and to reestablish hand after she denied you the kiss when you playfully challenged her to one. In your zeal to demonstrate non-neediness, you forgot that you have to make a physical move on a girl to get the ball rolling toward sex. There is a fine line between slyly camouflaging your intentions and showing no intention at all. Two dates have now gone by without any kissing or intimate touching, from what you have written. This is a recipe for a seduction about to fizzle.

What you did by nonchalantly walking off was probably better than ending the date on an awkward goodnight cheek kiss where she held all the cards, but you shouldn’t have put yourself in that situation to begin with. Had you prepped the courtship by kissing her earlier in the evening (let’s say during drinks at the lounge), the date-ending goodbye would not have been a test of wills pitting your aloofness against her coyness. Sure, by unexpectedly denying her the long-awaited goodbye kiss of prostration you may have won the battle, but you lost the war well before your tepid final flanking maneuver.

In the future, push for kissing by the middle of the first date, but don’t overdo it. Making out with a girl for too long and too hard on the first date — again, unless you are gunning for a SNL — will gradually lower your value and, hence, raise her buyer’s remorse, leading to flaking on subsequent dates. The perfect seduction moves two steps forward, one step back. No kissing = celibate LJBF. Too much kissing = flaking. Ideal kissing = mid-date, in measured doses. You want to break the lip barrier without making a spectacle of your horniness.

Always remember that the alpha male demonstrates by his actions complete mastery over his sexual desire, and knows when and how to parcel it. A man with simmering, feral arousal that he can control is intoxicating to women. This is why make-outs followed abruptly by takeaways or teasing push-offs is so attractive to women — they love that they can’t figure out how much you really want to fuck them.

When you kiss on the first date, stop before she does, lean back to talk some more, and chastise her lightly for moving too fast. Repeat a couple times during the night, then hold her hand as you walk her home. Kiss her *before* you get to her door, then drop her off about twenty feet from her place (to reduce the impression of formality that surrounds a door-step departure), giving her a hug if you wish. Then tell her you had a great time AND LEAVE. Do not tell her you’ll call her, or try to set up a second date. Just leave, and she’ll thank you later, in the best way women know, for blessing her happily restless sleep that night with the inscrutability of your actions.


  1. “Making out with a girl for too long and too hard on the first date — again, unless you are gunning for a SNL — will gradually lower your value and, hence, raise her buyer’s remorse, leading to flaking on subsequent dates.”

    good insight. haven’t thought of that but now that I do, it explains some of my recent failures.


  2. Yeah I am sure THAT explains your recent failures!Perhaps,tho,your decsion to try and Game non-crack whore-AIDS-infested-opensore street walkers has lowered your average as of late!!


  3. Yep. Personal experience absolutely validates this. Some part of your brain goes haywire if you manage to initiate first date makeout with a hot girl, and it’s way too easy to overdo it and activate buyer’s remorse and ASD in the girl. There needs to be a part of your brain standing athwart makeout shouting “STOP!”

    Good post. I’ll keep this in mind.


  4. Making out for too long is you chasing, esp. if she’s the one to break the kiss off. Not making out tends to make her think the date wasn’t very sexually charged, in retrospect.

    Don’t go for the kiss until you can feel she wants it as a result of your push pull, neg and DHV, asshole and comfort game. Tease kissing at first is often good. Then go for a good passionate hungry for her kiss – but break it off before she wants to. That’s often a good time to lightly neg her. “Hungry little minx, aren’t you?” You’re hot for her but also in control, playing with her. Then cool her off by being cool, turn to something else. Emotional roller coaster, with you driving.


  5. This is a great example of overgaming. Remember, the goal is to win the game, not to play technically precise game.

    There’s a HUGE difference there.

    Playing perfect game assumes you need to do so. Just winning can be done thru imprecise game (and always seems to happen that way).

    When a girl wants you to take your shirt off, man, don’t be a fuckhead and start making it into a 2 hour long production. That’s dumb as hell. Find a way to make it about HER taking it off FOR you.

    Let’s just assume that this was the first date, since the rule about kissing on the first date is CRUCIAL. I’ve NEVER been denied a first date kiss, and i don’t really consider myself good at game, or really hot, or anything that would render my advice unadaptable. Just take it. its what they want. why else are they on a date with you, fool?

    if a girl is asking me to take my shirt off (and i’m in good shape), i do it. not there. not at that time. but i do it. i dont get big bollocks about it and make a big deal! Turn it around on her. “i’m not that kind of boy” “not in front of all these people” use it as an excuse to venue change. “Maybe later ;)” in 10 minutes, suggest drinks at her place/your place whichever is close. then once the liquor is flowing, go ahead and tell her to take off your shirt. that’s what alpha dominance is about. it’s not some egghead chess match; it’s just you imposing your will in the most effective way possible.

    i hope that was clear. it’s a weird concept, but you’re doing what she wants you to do while making her feel like she’s the one doing it. this way you are not “taking orders”


  6. That’s often a good time to lightly neg her. “Hungry little minx, aren’t you?”

    Even for you that’s corny, lol. Who talks like that in the 20th Century?

    We come here to read Roissy’s advice, not yours. Stop always tacking on lengthy addendum to his shit.


  7. Depends on the girl but sounds like this girl was just begging for you to make the move, possibly even a little shy, and you put her on the spot by making her make the move.


  8. When learning game it’s tempting to be bold and just go for things like the kiss early, but you really have to wait until the girl is truly ready. She will let you know.

    I’ve lost a few seconds dates because I pushed for a desperate kiss at the end of the date. It was easy to tell the girl kissed me out of pity and was verified when I never heard from her again.


  9. Moral of story- no one rule for any one girl. Rooshs advice is pretty decent though.


  10. Where does this unending genius-ness come from? lol No one is this good or meticulous. Astounding.


  11. Grab her and kiss her. If she slaps you, leave immediately.

    Do this with every girl until you get one who doesn’t slap you. make your way around the bar, doing this to every girl you speak to for a few minutes. If you get the same girl twice, just pretend you’re meeting her again for the first time.

    This is the way of the warrior.


  12. Man the date ended at 5:30 am and she was trying to get his shirt off and he still needs help?? What a maroon. This guy needs some sort of Dean Stockwell Quantum Leap character at his disposal at all times to ask what to do next.

    “Her hand is up my shirt and she’s rubbing my chest and nipples..what do I do??”

    Fucking shit


  13. Kissing reduces rather than increases sexual tension. Don’t kiss until isolation is achieved and only if you plan to go for the lay that night.


  14. I was wondering if there’s a disconnect with the whole, no dating thing so this is probably more for what to do when you meet n greet after securing numbers…good job with the caveat, “You are not as debonair or as European as you think you are, and neither is she.” There are too many over compensating types trying to alpha-up sharing their disaster stories.

    Another sign I’ve picked up on is look for girls who try to get you drunk. They’re overcoming their own fears. If a girl is buying you drinks, she’s trying to butter you up for serious end of date kissing. And…she’s immobilized you, setting up an excuse for you to stick around, so you’re in her clutches. So, don’t pass out. enjoy.

    Also, the Jersy Shore has been an interesting real world laboratory of Roissy world view, from dudes who buy gifts for girls versus other white knighting and black knighting activities.


  15. “This is the way of the warrior.”

    You win the thread 😀


  16. Mid-date kissing has so many benefits worth appending this article.

    1. The middle of the date may be the high point of the date. Neither of you is as exhausted as you’ll be later in that night (esp. true for school night dates), which means you’re both having more fun. Plus, girls expect you to make the move at the end of the date, which means that toward the end of the night they’re fortifying their anti-slut and prudent gotta-work-tomorrow defenses. Their defenses just aren’t as rigid mid-date.

    2. Also because girls expect to be kissed at the *end* of the date, kissing mid-date gives you points for spontaneity and thus tingles.

    3. Venue changes are perfect for mid-date kissing because they give you good ways to measure the kissing and leave you in control. Example: kiss her coming out of the second venue. Tell her “come here,” give her a long, wet one, and pull away. “Let’s catch a cab.”

    4. After you do that, the whole date will seem more romantic to her. Your spontaneity and measured whiff of sex help her see the rest of the date through rose-colored lenses. Kissing whets (heh) her appetite for sex and leaves her wanting more. (Or it turns her off, and you know to bail on the last 1/3 of the date, save your time and money, and go looking for a last-call girl to try to salvage the night.)

    Side note: none of the above works well with aloof asshole game.


  17. “Doesn’t this contradict Roosh’s advice to just go for it.”

    You won’t even be able to be in the position to kiss a girl if she doesn’t like you at least a little (she won’t let your face get close to hers). My advice is geared for guys who worry about if a girl likes him or not. The only way to find out is to make a move.


  18. A girl trying to get you to remove clothing is not a girl trying to control you. It’s a girl trying to get you out of your clothes. It’s a shit test in that you can be too eager about it, but generally if a girl is coming onto you that strongly, you don’t want to shut her down. Shut a girl down too directly and unless she’s already obsessed, she’ll assume you’re not interested and start rationalizing your appeal away.


  19. Okay, is this squirrel an alpha?


  20. Any ‘date’ that lasts from 10pm until 5:30am and doesn’t end with you slipping out of her bed unnoticed while she sleeps and into your car parked outside her apartment isn’t a date – it’s a filibuster.

    This girl had successfully filibustered the reader twice in less than 24 hours. Her insistence on seeing his midsection wasn’t a shit test. All it amounts to is her wanting confirmation of his sexual viability based on his physique because his Game wasn’t getting the job done for her. Essentially she’s thinking, “I’ve strung this chode along for 10+ hours now over two consecutive days, but I still might bang him if he’s got a nice body under all that clothing.”


  21. Ah, yes, date mechanics…CR’s advice is helpful to the aspirants out there who are worried about (instead of today’s advice seeker who takes pride in avoiding kissing) the kiss.

    There is some good advice, especially once you get over boring date blandness. However, thinking of girls who go expect the motions (dinner, movie, kiss, good night) who expect the kiss good night without much date-time affection, receptiveness can be gauged by a closing hug: without too much awkwardness, watch her head; does it turn towards or away from your face. If the girl leans in, the kiss is there, if not, that’s good too; you can still hold the girl post hug, at arm’s length like a middle school slow dance, and look into her eyes to see if she wants the snog. Some girls want to kiss, expect to kiss, but also expect the guy to go for it in this circumstance because they fear rejection as much as you do. Some end of date awkwardness can actually be because she wants it more than you.

    Also, it may not occur to CR at this point in his life, but if you’re nervous about the kiss, and that’s why you’re worried about timing, and that’s stopping you, try to break your own nervousness by kino’ing it up. Hold hands, light non-creepy contact, etc. This should help your confidence and bring about the magic 2/3 date window. Of course, if you’ve followed the rules, bounced three times, maintained good eye contact, kino’d, and have had some drinks, the remaining 1/3 of the date will be all kissing. The alphaness comes from not forcing it but also taking it if it’s there; and then you can worry about push-pull.


  22. Great post! As always with Roissy at his best, this handles all the intricate subtleties without losing context. Great points on venue changing, mid-date kiss, push-pull, escalating while subtly masking your intentions, and the dangers of the last second desperation kiss.

    Especially the last point – it’s easy to slip into a mindset where a last second kiss is a victory and is somehow building a rapport bridge for the next date. It couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s often simply more awkward for the girl to say no than to give out one good-bye kiss. I’ve dug my grave before pulling this move, and now it makes more sense why nothing happened after.


  23. Bars are closed. People are going home.

    Friends are on the sidewalk talking to respective friends and strangers.

    I see the girl I’ve been gaming all night. A real beauty with light brown hair and the bluest eyes I have ever seen. Predictably, she was a total bitch. She pissed me off at the bar earlier because she kept interrupting me to rant about how smart she was. I returned the favor and was a complete asshole to her, blowing her off. I don’t have time for games. We are now not speaking after we exchange rude insults. I walk away.

    But now, there she is. Just looking at her stupid little iphone with her friends around her.

    With the spirit of Marlon Brando in me, I walk, no, swagger right up and look deeply into her eyes. I say nothing. I go in for the kiss but she turns away. I ignore this act of non-submission and swiftly, forcefully grab her. One hand on her waist, one hand on her chin, forcing her lips to mine.

    Boom. No more pulling away. She melts into me.

    I am Rhett Butler.

    Make out. Right in front of my friends and her friends. The crowd around us quiets. The makeout was long but I pulled back first, pushing her away. I turned around and swaggered back to my friends who clearly were impressed with ballsy endeavor. I glance at her once. She was a wreck: smiling, giggling, trying to make sense of what just happened. (Hamster wheel) Her girlfriends gazed at me with lust. I ignored her and left with my friends.

    Facebook message the next morning and I have a date.

    I kissed her because I wanted to, but I also noticed the IOIs from our previous interactions and went in for the kill. Yes, she pulled away but in this case was just a test to see if you are man enough to go after what you want.

    Take Asshole, Do Almost Nothing, One Word Game and combine it with a pair of brass balls, a little cocky funny, and a take-no-shit-from-anyone attitude and you will go far.


  24. “I am gay. How will this work for a gay man?”

    As punishment for their sins, homosexual men must eternally attempt to kiss female demons as they writhe in the fires of Hell.


  25. on September 27, 2010 at 5:15 pm You're doing it wrong

    This Woman was describing a recent relationship she’d had and how the guy was giving her the LJBF routine, how he usually dates Married women and she was the exception being single, intelligent, etc, etc and claiming he just wasn’t good enough for her and maybe if he got his act together they could revisit the thing later. I’m thinking beta w/ low level game working her into a FB.

    Then she described the night they met, how he didn’t use lines and was so different from other guys – how he tried to fix her up with a friend and then “reclaimed” her a bit later. She went on and on about how different this guy was, described his humorous negs, etc and how surprised she was to end up going full blown slut at the end of the night w/ him.

    Obviously the kid is either carrying some natural porn PUA DNA or he’s had some level of training. I can’t figure it out though – it all fits except the way he’s breaking it off and seems to be making the mistake of lowering his own value, pedestal worship, etc. Am I missing something?

    After reading the how to go for the kiss article I thought about this guy and his “meet my buddy, you two would be great / I changed my mind and want you for myself” routine that set him up for full, ez access on the first night. That’s not a bad play if you think about it…..


  26. on September 27, 2010 at 5:25 pm The Quest For 50

    This rings so true for me… the one time I’ve had an awkward, rejected kiss in the last few months was under this exact circumstance. I tried to force it at the end of the date, and it was like entering a canyon of awkwardness, to wallow around and die in. I wrote about it in this post: http://thequestfor50.wordpress.com/2010/09/05/missing-the-layup/


  27. on September 27, 2010 at 5:25 pm You're doing it wrong

    I just read the inventor of the Segway died in a horrible Segway accident.

    God hates beta males. . .

    Then again, you would think that in order to die on a Segway a person would have to be doing something really strange, like going much, much faster than a glorified unicycle is meant to go.

    If that geek wired his Segway to do 90 mph that’s pretty damn alpha. Neanderthal stupid alpha but alpha none the less.

    I wonder if being the inventor of the Segway lured vagina and if so, was it just because of the money or did it lure a very specific type of vagina? Green hippy, leg hair w/ gadget fetish vagina is my suspicion.


  28. Rollo, I don’t think you can put this in the female filibuster column. First, the female opened buttons on her shirt, continually kino’d the guy, and mussed up her hair. Second, girls who don’t want to be there won’t be there. No girl hangs out with a guy until 5am unless they’re platonic drinking buddies (and yes, they exist) or she’s waiting for the guy to make a move.

    I’ve observed a female filibuster where, because of going out dynamics, a female friend ended up on friend’s floor with her “date.” She would make it their only date. She had to keep him talking until 5am just to avoid him from swooping in. That’s a filibuster. Girls will leave or play possum otherwise.

    Like an FAA official, I am chalking this crash up to pilot error.


  29. Great advice, and something you eventually just get a feel for….after practice, you just know when a chick wants to be kissed. It’s a great feeling, heheh.


  30. “…then drop her off about twenty feet from her place.”

    “A man with simmering, feral arousal that he can control is intoxicating to women. ”

    Good ones.


  31. I go for the kiss midway in dates, even if she’s not giving out tons of IoIs.

    If she refuses the kiss then things were going nowhere anyway- so no loss. If she goes for it then there is a good chance that my qualitiy kissing skills combined with raw sexual chemistry could lead to a ONS even if the date was somewhat lackluster to that point.

    Better to go for it and go down in flames with the “cheek turn” then let a date end in the pathetic asexual whimper of conversation and polite escort to the door.


  32. on September 27, 2010 at 6:26 pm greatbooksformen GBFM


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  33. “2. Do not kiss her at the end of the first date unless there was significant physical contact during the date.”

    This is bad advice when it comes to being out with shy, awkward, really insecure girls. Their initial interest in you (if it’s there) will often be highly masked in public areas (as they are totally uncomfortable with giving you chances for physical escalation during most of a first date.)

    When it comes to girls like this, sometimes you just have to take the chance toward the end of the date and see what happens. If it IS awkward and she’s not into you, who cares?

    Plus if she IS receptive, things will often escalate quickly (probably since their social passivity leads to them getting less sex and being more horny.)


  34. you did well to hold her off in the venue but the time to kiss her was when you dropped her off…you may not get another look in now. when the woman has opened to you physically (i.e she is ready to be intimate, even just a kiss) you must proceed. Hesitation, confusion or working out which type of game you are still running will fail.


  35. on September 27, 2010 at 6:58 pm greatbooksformen GBFM








  36. – “An end-of-official-date kiss is simply a prelude to a beginning-of-unofficial-date night of fornication.”

    Kinda like the “After-Prom.” Here in Los Angeles, (possibly everywhere?) the formal school sanctioned prom is followed by a private prom that everyone is invited to, but where the chaperones aren’t there.

    I don’t know why that sentence made me think of that. God, I hate having daughters.


  37. Who gives a shit what the girl thinks. If you want to kiss her, kiss her. Don’t be a pansy ass pussy. Grow some balls and do it. If she turns her cheek or rejects you, no big deal. Tell her to fuck off and go along your merry way.


  38. Look, another inexperienced urban fag with a blog.

    News flash, 9’s aren’t dumping your jelly ass because you tried kissing them. Whether it’s the soically omega perv or the beta bitch like you, once the hottie’s hindbrain creepster radar sounds, your loser sperm is not getting anywhere near her egg.

    The majority of kiss-less first dates lead nowhere.

    The opposite is true of church girls. I blew myself out on many a first, second, even third date trying to kiss a succession of 7.5-9 ranked girls. I destroyed what I believe were some real potential relationships before I figured out that you can’t just put the pedal to the metal like you need to do with most other girls. So, I started experimenting with how long I could go without kissing these girls while still maintaining interest. The answer is . . . months. I sometimes feel I’m operating in a separate universe from most of you guys. Anyway, this reminds me of PA’s remark that with a very inexperienced girl, you can get away with sleeping next to her and not making a move. I believe him. Of course, there still needs to be lots of other physical affection involved. You can’t act like a eunuch.


  39. on September 28, 2010 at 12:16 am Days of Broken Arrows

    Here is where he went wrong: when she asked him to take his shirt off, instead of mentioning kissing (which was a non-sequitor) he should have said “Sure, if you take yours off.”

    This is what she was going for — the heavy sexual vibe and he dampened it by going for a kiss, which says “romance” not sex. Had he done this, she may just have taken him up on it, or said “maybe later.” Kissing confirms sexual tension, it doesn’t lead to it.

    I once got a kiss out of annoying a woman by messing with her bra strap — this is how he should have played it.


  40. Rule #4: Do not go for the first date kiss in a crowded room.

    I’m “totally that kind of girl.”

    But then, Chateau, you know all about that. Your tongue tasted of Now-and-Laters and stale plums. Divine.


  41. I wish I could agree with the “go for a kiss in mid-date” thing…but i really cant.

    some of my most intense affairs with women had really iffy, reluctant kisses on date #1. and we wound up fucking each other 3 weeks later.

    yet on the other hand, my last date a few weeks ago had an intense makeout session in the middle of the date…neither one of us initiated it, it was just mutual…but i never saw her again (she “wasnt ready” to reenter the dating world, she said. whether it was truth or bullshit, i didnt push it, but based on earlier comments, particularly when she said she hadnt been with a man since last sept., might have been some truth to this)

    with the “kissing in mid-date” deal, i generally FEEL my way through that. it’s not like i say “ok, it is now x’o clock, this is the part where i give her a big wet one”

    otherwise, i agree with those who say that the guy “overgamed” himself when he refused to take his shirt off. it just sounded so PETTY. i could see making her work for it by not doing it right away, but when he drew it out a long time like that…and it was 10-ish when they started but 5:30 when they ended…its like the man cockblocked himself. id like to know what his 3rd date was like. or if there is one.

    i am going on a first date myself on thurs., so without overthinking this, im keeping all these tips in mind. i hope she doesnt freeze up on me, or even worse give me this line: “i thought you were just being FRIENDLY, i didnt know you were trying to be my BOYFRIEND”


  42. on September 28, 2010 at 2:05 am (r)evolutionary

    Great post. Deft calibration advice here. With experience, calibration happens automatically.


  43. Vodka and Ground Beef is a total whore. Don’t listen to her.

    And I think she believes in the blank slate. She thinks Pinker is a pinko.


  44. Vodka and Ground Beef is a total whore. Don’t listen to her.

    I doubt that. Her clients would run away. I mean, what do you expect when her mother, Marquise de Made (pron.: mad) made her to play the role of ugly duckling a year after year at a school christmas show.

    And I think she believes in the blank slate.

    Ni. I think something got mistranslated. She calls it black out state.


  45. She calls it black out state.

    In that she trusts.


  46. I agree that the guy not taking his shirt off was “over playing” and lost an SNL because of this.


  47. The Segway millionaire died because the path he was riding his Segway on was riddled with tree roots at the top of a cliff jutting over what the British apparently call a crag (river ravine). I wouldn’t give him a Darwin Award for that but it comes close.


  48. I was under the impression that you have to go for casual sex (and of course this includes kissing beforehand) with every hot girl you meet, because you have to see if they fail the test and expose their sluttiness. What’s this about dont make out too much, etc? I thought the whole point of this website is to get people LAID, not dating girls who make you wait 3 months for sex.


  49. Ya, I too have the same opinion. The post is trying to show that one should go slow but the de facto existence of the blog is to tell we lads how to get laid as swiftly as possible. Is the blog going stray! Any comments from fellow readers!!


  50. Can’t follow rules. You end up loosing your senses. Being able to sense the feel your date’s responses is invaluable.


  51. on September 28, 2010 at 12:19 pm gunslingergregi

    If you just got a number from a chick after first meeting and you were hitting it off go for kiss.


  52. This girl set it up so perfectly for this guy…wtf?

    I was planning on showing you what’s under my shirt here in about 20 minutes after I throw it down beside your bed.


    Guy: You’ll just have to wait until its laying on the floor beside your bed.

    Girl: Oh, is that right?

    Guy: Yes, (Grabbs girl by the arm) in fact that’s where we are headed right now.

    If she pulls away, you can easily play it off as a joke.


  53. chateau #394b

    When To Move In For The Kiss On A First Date

    whenever before
    – but never after –
    she gives me the beejer


  54. Thursday

    don’t force a kiss if she isn’t giving indicators of interest

    Doesn’t this contradict Roosh’s advice to just go for it. After a certain point that’s what I did with the girls I met at bars. I didn’t give a shit. Sometimes they kissed me, sometimes they didn’t, but I didn’t really care.

    Sometimes you have to begin kino escalation with no IOI, and even negative IOIs. Sometimes the IOI just isn’t going to come, so you have nothing to lose, and there is always the possibility that the escalation will spark something. Last week I went from no IOI and the girl wprapped up in a duvet way on the other side of the bed to having the girl fully unclothed in 20 minutes, (3rd date) starting from laying my hand on her lap. But for the kiss, even if the date had no kino escalation the whole time, and you are saying goodbuy, you can lean in. Thats what I did on the 1st date with the above girl – but I went in for a sniff kiss. She said it made her knees weak. Yes, it could have been wiser to do more kino before that point – but the fact that I didn’t did not make the final effort awkward.

    The fact is that your kino escalation can begin even with no ioi, and sometimes must begin that way. Her sexual interest may only start once your is shown.

    On another note, the 2nd virgin I started dating at the same time is falling in love just as hard and fast as you’d expect a 21 year virgin old to. There is a thrill in doing small sexual firsts with her. Imagine – the first man to do ANYTHING. We see each other almost everyday. This is fun. Girl has a hot and jealous temper, but I’ll marry her anyway. I can handle her passion.


  55. Another note that could be implied in the CR post. If you full date has passed, and you have been physcially able to keep your hands off of the girl, perhaps the reason escalation didn’t happen wasn’t because of her lack of IOI, but because you just aren’t that into her.

    I know, for a man, getting some indicators of interest is often enough to get him into the girl. But if you’re with a date who only barely does it for you, you won’t be giving her your fullest attention. She won’t get your best game. If she was that hot, you’d have been pawing her, not waiting for her to invite pawing.

    And like Sidewinder says, it’s not always about the body. A mental connection is a sexual turn on sometimes. So if the girl is all around that, to you, ignore if there are IOIs or not. It’s enough that she is what YOU want.


  56. culdcept

    When learning game it’s tempting to be bold and just go for things like the kiss early, but you really have to wait until the girl is truly ready. She will let you know.

    I’ve lost a few seconds dates because I pushed for a desperate kiss at the end of the date. It was easy to tell the girl kissed me out of pity and was verified when I never heard from her again.

    Its quite difficult to codify these things. Since communication forces us to, squeezing the nuance into the rules often makes it seem as if there are no rules at all.

    Sometimes the girls indicators of interest are extremely subtle – questionable even – and outwardly appear even negative.

    If you get a mood, follow it. If you are uncertain, follow what you want to do. Better to do more kino before the kiss, but as with any escalation, sometimes you purposely escalate quickly and then back off. Shock value.

    If driving a car, you can take any attitude you want towards the gas pedal. Floor it, gentle acceleration, smooth town driving or racy off road hill jumping. When cruising down the highway on a heavy motorbike, if you open the throttle full you’ll get a punch of acceleration. Kissing can be like that punch – you can use it just for drama, then back off. Or kissing can be a smooth segue into the next step. So if there has been no indicator of interest yet, you can still smack open the throttle for one second, and then see what happens next. Don’t go in for a long tongue kissing and stay there though. Unless she starts to grab your cock or something.


  57. Anonymous

    Kissing reduces rather than increases sexual tension. Don’t kiss until isolation is achieved and only if you plan to go for the lay that night.

    Ya, some guys are into kissing, and find it builds attraction. I’m not one of them. I’ll often only start kissing after several fucks. I’m more apt to go for her nipples than lips.


  58. Raliv

    I go in for the kiss but she turns away. I ignore this act of non-submission and swiftly, forcefully grab her. One hand on her waist, one hand on her chin, forcing her lips to mine.

    There you go!

    Sometimes escalation is like a wrestling match. You have to grab her face to force a kiss.


  59. And it’s the same for getting a girls pants off. Sometimes you have to literally wrestle her for them.


  60. I wrestled with my fiance over her pants for a good 45 minutes today. Never did get em off. And I’d lean back often, and watch her reactions and body language. Well, she kept hiding my phone, and wouldn’t give it back, so she wanted to wrestle.

    As long as the girl is laughing, no doesn’t mean no.

    And sometimes just wrastling, throwing the girl around here and there, is good clean fun. So much the better if you win and get her pants off. If she really means no, you’ll know. She’ll stop laughing and looking wide eyed amazed. She’ll instead look sullen and serious and angry.


  61. If I had a buck for everytime a girl told me no… we’ll tonight alone I’d have earned a couple hundred easy.


  62. Rather than kissing, I like to bring my face very close in conversation, such that lips are touching. This also can take some forceful working up to, with every rebuke seen only as a 3 second restraining order.


  63. What I mean is not kissing, but talking with lips touching. Same laughing and joking. Eyes open.


  64. Great advice. Took notes on this one as I know it will come in handy for me.


  65. Consider the super hot girl. She gets hit on all the time. Even though all men want her, she may be lonely, and rebuke is her habit.

    To break down those defenses, you need persistence, as well as skill. The skill is to push her various attraction triggers. The persistence is to simply never take no for an answer. No is merely a cause for pause. Usually not even that.

    A girl might say no and push your hand away from her nipple. Over to the next nipple. She may say I have to go now! but not get up off of your bed.

    All those guys who tried and failed, for lack of persistence and skill. I’m so glad young men are boyish. Younger guys may do fine at building comfort and attraction, but they suck at escalation. If I had to choose between the three skill sets, I’d choose escalation.


  66. xsplat–

    What are the divorce laws like in the Philippines?


  67. haha wow i just realized that some guy i knew used one of these on me… the whole stopping and chastising the girl during kissing. and that was why i never wanted to see him again, i mean, who DOES that.