Older Man Game: Direct Or Indirect?

Younger man game gets plenty of attention and analysis, but in comparison older man game seems to get the short shrift. The principles of pickup are fairly universal — female hypergamy operates on all men, of all age groups — but some of the tactical details will change if your age is significantly younger or older than the woman you are seducing. With that in mind, here’s a comment pulled from the Nick Hoss PUA website:

Another time to possibly go indirect: when you’re significantly older. A direct opener would force her to make a snap judgement, while indirect may give you time to demonstrate high value.

In theory, this sounds right. Direct game does theoretically corner women into making reflexive snap judgments. If you come on strong, a woman is not going to have the chance to enjoy the feeling of flirtation building to an anticipated denouement. She will revert to her default female filtering algorithm which activates at a much lower threshold if all she has to go on are your approach mechanics and plainly visible SMV irregularities such as might be apparent in a large age discrepancy. (Most older men, out of cowardice or lack of compensating attributes, do not hit on significantly younger women, which conditions younger women into expecting older men to comport themselves like bland, asexual lumps. The inverse is also true — it’s rare for, say, 18 year old men to hit on 28 year old women, and for similar reasons.)

But it can be argued, theoretically as well, that older men using indirect game on younger women feeds into women’s expectations of harmless avuncular daddy figures chatting them up with nary a sexual thought in their minds. In other words, if you are an older man hitting on a much younger woman, you have to be more careful about the danger of indirect game spiraling into breezy, chit chatty pointlessness. You’ll know you’ve failed when you swerve into more sexually tinged banter and she acts surprised and indignant.

So again we come to a pro and con list for direct vs indirect game that applies equally to older men as to younger men. Direct game circumvents the risk of LJBF prejudice, at the potential cost of activating insta-screens in women. Indirect game allows for cunning guidance of women’s emotions, at the potential cost of misjudged intentions.

Enough of theory. What about applied seduction? In reality, women make snap judgments before you even open your mouth. Your body language can be alpha or beta, and women subconsciously pick up those nonverbal signals of your mate quality. If you are significantly older or younger than your prey, your body language cannot, in any way, exude defeatism. Both the younger man hitting on an older woman and the older man hitting on the younger woman must seem in control of their worlds. Large age differences amplify the need for compensating attractiveness cues.

My gut feeling is that indirect game, as a contributing variable in approach-lay ratio, is the better choice overall for the typical scenarios involving older men and much younger women (10+ years younger). By typical scenarios, I mean non-nightclub environments. Women — especially prime age women in the 18-24 year old bracket — possess very strong preconceived notions about how older men will act around them. A direct, choose or lose, style of approach may violate their preconceptions so thoroughly that they respond by shutting down.

But that is just gut feeling. Any of you older men or pickup pros who have experience hitting on significantly younger women using direct and/or indirect game are encouraged to leave your opinions in the comments section. Award-winning comments will be highlighted in a future post.


  1. on August 21, 2012 at 2:26 pm John Campbell

    Hey CH: Have you ever commented on Robert Chambers?


  2. “You can improve your close rate immensely by refusing to wait for approach invitations.”

    This is surprising to me. Why do you say that? Seems like you’d close a higher percentage when you’re starting with an interested girl.


  3. Wrong. Obviously you were supposed to remark on Akin.


    • What did Akin say?

      Was it that he indicated some rapes are legitimate–that they are honestly reported and actually occur–while others are lies?

      Talk to Brian Banks or the Duke lacrosse team.

      Is it that he claimed pregnancy could not occur in cases of legitimate rape?

      I’m guessing, without looking, that there’s considerable biomechanical truth to this. Not that pregnancy in cases of legitimate rape is impossible or even unlikely, but that the instance decreases in women who are psycho-emotionally closed off and even terrified by the prospect of being impregnated by the men who are raping them.


      • The only biomechanical truth you need to obviously learn is sperm can penetrate egg resulting in pregnancy. How the sperm got there – from a rape, from a one night stand, from a romantic getaway in the Caribbean, does not matter. Yes, women can falsely report they have been raped. But to the clueless, there is no hormonal secretion a woman can make to prevent a pregnancy occurring from a rape. Doesn’t matter how ” Closed Off ” they are. Doesn’t matter if they are terrified of getting pregnant. To argue otherwise will only make you sound incredibly stupid. Sperm penetrates egg=pregnancy.


  4. Living in a city full of flaming liberals, younger women treat me like I’m not even human. It’s really offensive. When I go somewhere that is politically more conservative, young women treat me with respect and courtesy.

    I find it amusing that political conservatives are much nicer to a guy with a ponytail than political liberals.


    • Well that makes perfect sense.

      Liberal women tend to be sluttier, so they’re probably used to emanating that vibe and getting hit on by anything with a penis looking for a quick lay. They also tend to be pickier in how a guy looks because they have more masculine brains.

      Conservative women are nicer to you because they assume that you’re not going to hit on them. At your age, it can be assumed that you are already married, with 2 kids and one on the way.


      • That would make it even worse. Conservative young women should have no illusions that older men are going to be compliant cowards and not be interested. But you have shown why it’s important that the indirectness not last long.


      • Liberal = ‘ho… you got that right.


      • Do you nerds just make this stuff up? Republicans, at least where I live, are just more upperclass and more civilised with better manners. It has nothing to do with whether they want to get laid. In fact, they’re usually even hornier than the liberal frigid sluts. Just more subtle and reserved outwardly.


    • I’ll bet they treat you better than they treat older women. 🙂


    • Well, we could start with getting rid of the ponytail…


      • Old dudes with ponytails never look as good as they think they do.

        Young sluts are meaner to guys because they’re actually screening for guys to fuck. So they have to screen hard. Why waste their time being nice to some random old dude with a ponytail when there are guys out there that can rock their hamster and pussy?

        Nice conservative chicks can be nice to everyone because they’re not looking to fuck anyone.

        Think, man. Think.


    • lose the ponytail. Who are you,Betty from Riverdale?


      • By the by,women who are “liberal” are liberal not because they are nicer or better,Its quite the opposite, Theyre status seeking cunts;so you’d expect them to be cuntish!!


  5. Successfully hitting on 18-24yos is far easier in my mid-30s than it was when I was 18 or even 20something. Though I cheat by using dating sites where both of us already know what we’re there for and so I can be very direct. Once that context is established it’s simple to maintain it when meeting in person. I would find it much harder to segue into that shit if I met them in sailing class.

    When I hit 40 I may have to work harder – that seems to be the red line for them.


    • Girls like older guys. No not from another generation but =~ 10 years is obvious and without socialization is really what nature wants.

      Early 30s men who cannot make it work with any girl starting at least in the early 20s makes me think they must be short, pudgy and have friar baldness.

      I was too young to take the hint nature was trying to tell me early on, but when I was a senior in high school girls seemed like work. Yet I once ran into an 8th grade girl on my way home with my bike which started as some misunderstanding I don’t need to get into. It was clear she was interested in talking to me afterwards. She was not the dregs either. She was on the cusp of incipient hotness about a minute or two before you take the pizza out of the oven. I talked to girls, but it was the first time I felt like I was being followed.

      There is another observation I make now where I am with a younger married couple. He is 26 and his wife a year or two older certainly seeks to engage me. Yet several girls much younger who are daughters of the larger social group, who are about 14 , have an obvious crush on him.

      The only ones who seem to know this today are pimps at the bus station.

      Co-ed education creates the illusion that you should go after girls your own age. What does your instinct tell you let alone theirs?


      • “Early 30s men who cannot make it work with any girl starting at least in the early 20s makes me think they must be short, pudgy and have friar baldness.”


        Assuming you’re fit and have somewhat of a head of hair, there’s no reason why a guy in his early 30s can’t score the same type of young chicks he scored when he was in his teens and twenties.

        Girls go nuts over Brad Pitt, Daniel Craig, and George Clooney who are well into their 40s and 50s… even Sean Connery when he was in his 70s. Yes, they are genetically good looking, but most older men can dress as well and be just as fit as those guys if they gave a damn.


      • It’s an older man’s duty to rob the cradle if for no other reason than aging feminazis hate, hate, HATE it.


      • everyone, meet my new facebook status.


  6. Indirect but not for long. Example used on a college student yesterday walking in the same direction,

    Me: Where is ABC Restaurant?
    Her: I don’t actually know
    Me: You should, it’s the best place to eat here, so they tell me
    Her: I’m a poor student so I haven’t had the chance yet in life to eat at a nice restaurant.
    Me: Yes, but a female poor student and someone like you would be asked by men, making her financial status irrelevant

    That got a conversation going.


  7. My current main fb is 11 years younger than me. However, I’m not sure my game (mostly direct) would count because I look a lot younger than I actually am. So I’d be interested to hear from other guys who actually look older to see which one works better, since I’m not gonna look young forever.


  8. Here is a scenario that played itself out for me this year. I am 41, target is 23. Upon meeting, she was very abrasive with me, challenging, shit tests, wise cracks, you name it. I handled all of her barbs and her sarcasm with nary a flinch. This was back in January. After one such night of exchanging barb after barb, I was settling up my tab at the bar.

    She came over to me and asked me, “Oh, are you leaving now?” I answered, “Why, do you want to come home with me and have sex?” She stopped dead, jaw agape. I continued on sorting out my bill, downed my drink and left.

    After that, she was very hot and cold with me for several weeks, even a couple months I’d say.

    I continued on unaffected, playing serious aloof game, mixed in with some push-pull during any subsequent encounters.

    Then one night, she came up to me, she was all dolled up. She asked for my cell phone number. I gave it to her and she immediately sent me the following text while we were both in mixed company at the bar:

    Her: “What are you doing later?”

    Me. “Not sure, why?”

    Her: “Will you spend some time with me? Do you live near here?”

    Me: “Yes”

    She then came up to me and said, “Yes you’ll spend some time with me or yes you live near here?”

    “Yes I’ll spend some time with you and yes I live near here.”

    I carried on drinking, somewhat less aloof. A while later she joined me for a couple, I bought her a couple shooters and we left together. I took her home and f*cked her brains out.

    Hopefully there’s some game tactics in there that could help some guys on here, but mainly I rely on my height, my looks, and aloof, push-pull game mostly. I don’t over analyse game as I find it makes me operate a little less smoothly. I’ve bedded quite a few women who were substantially younger using this same tactic, but this particular one was the youngest at a nearly 18 year age gap.


  9. Also depends on how much older you look. Some men can look 20 in their 40s.


    • Well, I am counting on that as I enter the higher numbers in my 30’s. As for looking like my 20’s, maybe not but still shockingly young looking. Of course, the end goal is a russian mail order bride but still, I want to have fun until then.


      • There are no longer such creatures. Once they got on the Internet for themselves, pirate copies of Sex and the City and Twilight taught them they can get younger men in perpetuity.

        But at least they are not equalist feminists. It’s not ideology, just expectations you have to deal with.

        Never pay a mail order bride site for correspondence because you are 100% guaranteed of her not being the one to read and respond to your letter. If you must, pay for a date. The prices are now in the $50 to $100 range for that date, but at least you wouldn’t have spent that amount receiving fake letters from a guy named Boris in the back room.

        If the service demands that you pay for a certain number of letters first, call their bluff and so no and tell them why: that you are onto what the industry is doing. On the date, know that the interpreter gets $15 per hour because she has to give $5 per hour to the girl who often now wouldn’t be interested in meeting a foreigner for no hourly compensation.

        Good girls know this scam is going on and are increasingly staying away from the agencies.

        The salad days are over. All you guys who thought it was your backstop are wrong.

        Feminism is spreading via pirated American films and it must be defeated fast because there will be nowhere to go in your 50s and 60s if it continues apace and American prosperity filters around the world.

        Manosphere bloggers should work to put this industry out of business, mainly by taking their credit card processing abilities away from them. It’s almost entirely a fraud. Call Visa.

        But, worse, this industry is making American men look like stupid fools. The hottest girls who speak English will dabble in helping work these scams because there is so much money for what amounts to a little fake letter writing or donating their photos to the scams for a monthly fee.

        They can’t help but lose respect for western men.

        The industry must die to save the reputation of western men.


      • ouch, I was mostly joking, but it is funny that this backstop is disappearing. There’s always Vietnam?


      • Now I’d just take vacations in Eastern Europe. You may be able to work something out with an agency there but face to face with concrete results, not “letters”. This should be nothing more than getting the correspondence going. If you have the time growing some balls and mingling will work. They will give you a free shot when they know you are not a local schlub especially the more provincial the area. Ask for directions all the time….


      • on August 21, 2012 at 5:53 pm colombian guy

        agreed. feminism is spreading like the plague…. south america is suffering from that too.. but , at least they try to look feminine.

        asshole game still works wonders on this chicks for now, so i would not worry for now.


      • Asshole game is always gonna work. It still works in America.
        The problem with feminism is that it is cultural poison. You could still get laid under a feminist zeitgeist but the lies, the rationalizations and the misandry will make you suffocate.


    • How about Keith Richards game where you are 45 but look 85. 40 but looking 20 would make you look odd. I’m 45 but look it. Younger girls have told me that I’m very good looking , they like the grey at the temples.


    • A 40 year old who looks 20 would look weird. Go for keith Richards game , that is where you are like 50 with the face of an 80 year old


  10. As a mid-40’s guy who chases girls in their 20’s and early 30’s, I’ve got a lot of experience in this area.

    I generally work only night game (lounge-type bars, but also the occasional club). My style is fairly direct, especially later in the evening, when the only unattached girls are likely drunk and looking to hook up.

    Basically, I open with the tried and true “Hi” and look to escalate quickly so that I’ve got a legitimate shot at a ONS within a few hours.

    I’ve had pretty good success with this style, banging a good number of 6’s and 7’s that way, with a rare 8 thrown in for extra wood-inducing action.

    My last girlfriend was 27, the one before that was 25 when I met her (I was early 40’s at the time), I’d rate both as high 7’s…

    But I also find that I’m getting shot down more as each year passes, so clearly age is a factor to some of these chicks and my style may lose its effectiveness in the next several years.

    Another thing I’ve noticed is that the ones who are much younger that I wind up dating longer term, seem to have daddy issues (from divorced home, much older father, or dad passed away when she was young, etc.). So, I think I’m attracting a specific subset of younger chick who wants an older guy to provide some kind of protection.

    So, I guess on balance, I think that direct game is a better option overall, at least for the evening. I would caution, however, that being super cocky/smirky, etc. may not be as effective as just demonstrating plenty of confidence and DHV’s (dress well, a few comments about travel/lifestyle thrown in, etc.)

    Maybe that’s because the Daddy issue types need to feel secure in addition to that all important tingle…

    Liked by 1 person

  11. I’m 40 and look a little younger. I got a make out with a 20 year old and that’s been it. She was a clerk and I negged her and she loved it. Still seemed indirect though. But following that she was super flaky.

    Thanks for this post. I always think blogs and books are talking about guys under 33. Cant wait to have more directed at older guys cause I loves the young girls don’t ya know.


  12. on August 21, 2012 at 3:33 pm Professor Mentu

    Indirect game with a few surprisingly aggressive negs work best for me. But I always neg with a smile.


  13. I’m 41 and usually date about 10+ years younger. I’ve found the times I was successful were almost all using direct game. Of course this could be because my indirect game isn’t up to par. It just seems with indirect I end up falling into the “breezy chit chatty pointlessness” CH warns about.


  14. I second anonymous: indirect with fast escalation. Faster than she expects.

    When an older man (38-48) opens a younger woman (24-28), she knows what he wants, even if he’s not direct. He conveys his intent by how suave is his tone, how assured are his transitions, and how well put-together he comes across overall. By that age, if you’re not capable of leading the conversation into interesting directions then you shouldn’t be hitting on younger girls.

    At some point in the conversation she will bring up something personal, intimate, awkward or emotional for her. She’s trusting you to handle it with greater maturity than she’s capable of. That’s your one and only chance. If you don’t pounce on that one opening to insert yourself deeper into her world and her psyche, you’re chalked off as ball-less.

    Liked by 1 person

    • “At some point in the conversation she will bring up something personal, intimate, awkward or emotional for her. She’s trusting you to handle it with greater maturity than she’s capable of.”

      That does happen a lot now that you mention it.

      Very insightful and very good advice.


    • “If you don’t pounce on that one opening to insert yourself deeper into her world and her psyche, you’re chalked off as ball-less.”

      How? Maybe an example or two would help.


    • At some point in the conversation she will bring up something personal, intimate, awkward or emotional for her. She’s trusting you to handle it with greater maturity than she’s capable of. That’s your one and only chance. If you don’t pounce on that one opening to insert yourself deeper into her world and her psyche, you’re chalked off as ball-less.

      Example(s), please.


      • One told me her mother hit her in the face on multiple occasions….led to me stroking her face in a bar and going back to her place.

        Another confided how deeply affected she was by her father’s lack of interest in her.


      • Dang brah! Bitch told me that a few weeks ago, I give her a right hook outta nowhere and say LIKE THAT?? ozzlzlzlzzozozoz

        trying to be empathetic … feel her pain right … lzozozoozozzz


  15. “Most older men, out of cowardice or lack of compensating attributes, do not hit on significantly younger women”

    Don’t forget that you’ll immediately get labeled a “pedo” by the shrieking FemiNazis.

    Like Anon above said: Indirect but not for long. Although, Krauser goes for the younger women and I’d say his game is pretty direct.

    It’s funny, but I get plenty of looks from 18 yo’s (hell, even the 17 and 16 yo sisters that live a few homes down from me) at my mid 30s age. It does help that I don’t look my age, of course. Plus, there’s a difference between being, say, 35 and knowledgeable of pop culture and being 35 and still listening to GnR or early 90s hip-hop. I don’t dress like a teen, but someone in my late 20s. And I stay in good enough shape — you don’t need to have 8% bf nowadays with the way the younger guys are carrying that extra tire around. But older (30 and over) men shouldn’t be scared to hit on 18 yo women, especially if you are of significantly higher status than her. Case in point: I have a twitter follower who once complained about having to walk to work when “old pedos” were trying to talk to her. She’s 17. When I asked how old they were she said “I don’t know in their 30s?” Meanwhile, almost all her tweets are about how she wants to bang Bradley Cooper (37) or eminem (39).


    • Hmm, I wonder what the difference is between Bradley Cooper and “old pedos,” it’s probably not being in shape or being obviously constrained by an old ball and chain, eh?


    • Case in point: I have a twitter follower who once complained about having to walk to work when “old pedos” were trying to talk to her. She’s 17. When I asked how old they were she said “I don’t know in their 30s?” Meanwhile, almost all her tweets are about how she wants to bang Bradley Cooper (37) or eminem (39).

      “Old pedos” = omegas aged 30+. “silver foxes” = alphas guys aged 30+.

      There are plenty of 18 y.o.s who would get banged by Mel Gibson.


    • on August 22, 2012 at 9:59 am RappaccinisDaughter

      I think some of the “older men hitting on younger women are creepy” thing that you’ll get from women isn’t so much about pushing an agenda as it is about projection and an inability to understand that men and women think differently.

      Because women are programmed to seek men who are our age or older, as women age, most of us begin to see men younger than ourselves as inappropriate targets. Personally, any man more than 3 or 4 years younger than I am just looks like a little boy to me. So what happens is women assume that men feel the same way, or decide that they *should* feel the same way.

      Not that you shouldn’t ignore the harpy shrieks. I’m just positing that the harpies may just be hamsters with megaphones.

      (For the record, as long as everybody is a consenting adult, I don’t think there’s anything “creepy” about older men seeking younger women.)


      • Well “consenting” is exactly what they question, telling themselves that men only target younger girls because they are inexperienced and easily bullied into sex. The women their own age have obviously only improved in every way with each passing decade so what other reason could their be?


      • “So what happens is women assume that men feel the same way,”

        That’s a great point. I remember being a little surprised that someone fifteen years older than me was interested, (eleven and thirteen had been my previous experience) but then a man twenty years older made fifteen years seem like not a big deal. Both men are very likeable, but that’s it. Now, when I was hit on by a man in his seventies on an online dating site, I was like, this has GOT to be a joke. It wasn’t!!!

        I love the infectious enthusiasm of younger guys, and older guys who can still occasionally tap into that are the best of both worlds. If you like dogs, puppies are a lot of fun, but an older one has matured and learned to protect the home.

        I think the significance of the age gap has more to do with stage than biological age. I tend to feel that younger men with older women are being taken advantage of (unless the man is very relationship savvy), just as a very young girl with an older man might be (unless he is looking to “settle down”:), although I recognize the younger woman/older man is the ideal correlation for the majority of people.


    • Pedo! Yes! That’s like RACISSS and NAZI …

      Each and all to be met with a stern look and the magic alpha word: “And?”

      coocooreeeecooooooooo the coq a chanté mes frères

      today at a fish market i passed this hot leggy hipster ho i’ve seen walking everywhere around town …… seen her okcupid before ……. stopped her and said, hey i wrote you on okc today! lzozlzlzozoz, she’s like omg i need to disable that shit, is it my tattoos you recognized?, lozozozz i say, no those are typical, it’s your face, so different from the rest …. remembering that K-selected dawgz in a test uncovered a woman’s face before her body zozozozlzlzlzlzlz beta dweebs lzozozo so yo she says i work at ___ come see me this weekend!!! ozozozmgmg yes sure omg i will come spend money on you and not get laid yippeeeee lzopzozopzozozozzozozozoz


  16. I did somewhat okay in my 20’s, but I never started filling out until my early 30’s, and I likely looked quite young. I have quite an angular jaw and strong chin, so I probably looked somewhat awkward back then. Through my 30’s though, my look has changed as I’ve filled out, and I suppose I grew into my face. I still have occasional bouts with self esteem issues, but on the whole I do quite well with the ladies, better than ever in fact at 41, as I’m now at 6′ 2″ 200 lbs and I’ve always walked everywhere and got a lot of exercise. I still have virtually all of my hair too, and a decent job, so I don’t do too badly, considering I often don’t try very hard and I do live in a difficult city known for its stuck up bitches.


  17. [O]lder men using indirect game on younger women feeds into women’s expectations of harmless avuncular daddy figures chatting them up with nary a sexual thought in their minds.

    A beta “daddy figure” might conjure “nary a sexual thought,” but a proper father figure — the template for a (male or female) child’s conception of alpha — is not asexual so much as protosexual. “[W]omen’s expectations of harmlessness” is a function of beta, not a function of age. Older men, and the experience signified by their elder status, are the opposite of “harmless” — unless we’re talking about nursing home residents here.

    Age further indicates “harm” by the fact that men naturally grow more alpha through the trials and errors of youth. A young woman’s peers simply have not seen enough tail to know how to handle it, much less potentially abuse it, and for all of youth’s advantages, experience cannot be faked.

    “Direct game” is for peppy strivers eager to learn from their errors because mistakes make a man. They become inured to rejection and percentage games once they feel the thrill of their first jackpot, and they build on the thrill to increase their hit rates. Indirect game is not just an advanced paradigm made possible by maturity, mastery, and confidence, it eventually becomes the only game in town for men with any sense of dignity.

    To chase a skirt directly is to put pussy on a pedestal. The more you directly try, the more you satisfy her inner princess, the more you are playing into her frame. Often that suffices, particularly with 45º sluts (halfway to horizontal). Older men who understand the counterproductive danger of inflating a girl’s already overblown esteem develop methods of misdirection to signal attraction without confirming her ego. It’s not that hard with the bubbleheads. With sophisticated women who can consciously sense what’s going on? The game’s the thing.

    The problem is, for a wallflower beta attempting to elevate his technique and confront his fear, only a direct effort will break him out of bad habits and give him a taste of what’s possible. For the uninitiated, indirect game and no game appear to be equivalents on the surface. So the counsel to “eliminate your desire” sounds to them like “nothing ventured, nothing gained.” But the tingle is the ultimate arbiter of effectiveness, and just as a woman cannot observe indirect game but rather involuntarily feels it, nobody but the mark herself detects the private tingle. Direct game is best played as a finishing move, not an opener. The hammer comes down once she is positioned over the target. “I have you right where I want you.”

    But how do you teach vibe and spontaneity? You don’t. Direct game has its zealots because it is just above minimally effective and because it is teachable. It is quantifiable, it is itemizable. Do X to produce Y and to capture Z. Direct game is science. Indirect game is art. Methodical men require methodology. Artists require freedom.


    Liked by 1 person

  18. I’d say – If you are an older guy that “has had girls, and can have girls,” ALL females, incluing Younger girls will simply KNOW IT – and indirect game is the way to go. No need to hit them over the head with direct.

    Especially true for an older guy. I agree that an older guy with game stands out among a sea of hopeless loser older men. I’d say its 1 in a 1,000 (or more?) older guy who has the game, wealth, status, and alpha to be readily banging 18-24.

    When one of these guys rolls up, females of all ages will know. It will instantly be subcommunicated in your demeanor, the way you “walk through the world” Lines and routines become secondary…

    An alpha is an alpha, and the older alpha from say, 40 to 55, is potentially the most powerful and magnetic of any man— period —- , even more so than his younger counterpart.

    Because the older alpha has had the time to acquire wealth, high societal status and possibly fame that younger male competition can’t compete with.

    Liked by 1 person

    • on August 21, 2012 at 8:43 pm Born Again Alpha

      I agree.


    • He still won’t be batting more than .200 because 40% of the hottest girls won’t go for the high status older male even if they are dirt broke and know their own time in the sun is almost up. But the smarter the girl, the better his chances provided she isn’t in that 110-115 IQ range that the feminists manage to capture.


  19. Aren’t older men aided by pop culture and some bad boy antics by popular older than 30 men seem to date younger girls in real life and in the movies, making may decembering sort of normal or cool?


    • Famous guys have such ridonkulous higher SMV by virtue of status that it doesn’t trickle down much to normals. The fact that 18 year olds want to bang George Clooney doesn’t mean they’d still want to bang him if he had no game and a boring job. You have to make your own cool.


  20. Plus, there’s a difference between being, say, 35 and knowledgeable of pop culture and being 35 and still listening to GnR or early 90s hip-hop.

    So maybe you can tell me: what constitutes pop culture today (musically that is)?


  21. A key to being successful with younger women when you’re post-40 is to be extremely fit.

    I know that fitness is important at any age, but after 40, it becomes even more so. The reason is that, among older men, being fit is incredibly rare. It’s relatively easy to be fit when you’re 23, which means that fit 23 year-olds need to differentiate themselves in some other way.

    But a man who is lean and strong at 43 is maybe one in a thousand. When I was 39, I was a f*cking fat slob. At 43, I’m in the best shape of my life. It also helps you stay young-looking. I got carded last weekend.

    Also, I think a 40-something guy trying to blend in with 20-something culture almost always comes off as a loser. Be youthful in spirit, but your tastes should not be molded to fit the current trends.


    • on August 21, 2012 at 7:21 pm Lucky White Male

      Great comment. THERE IS NO EXCUSE not to be in shape, and muscular and solid, now that Paleo is here.

      Indeed, you can actually REVERSE YOUR BIOLOGICAL AGE internally basically. This is confirmed by Art DeVany, a 74 year old who looks about 50, and was tested at a top aging lab in California and has biological age of 32 year old male.

      DeVany also confirms that Testosterone does not drop with age. Not only has his T level not dropped at 74, it’s the highest his doctor has ever seen, and that DeVany is aware exists at his age – at top of scale (700).

      He attributes it again to his Paleo lifestyle – eat Paleo, Lift Paleo. He also drinks moderately, enjoys cigars, and races motorcycles in the French Alps.

      DeVany: “Aging is for dummies” — http://www.arthurdevany.com/

      When I see older guys who refuse to learn Game and use Paleo to get jacked, I really have no sympathy.

      The tools are here. We could be entering the fucking glory days of being an older man. Any guy too lazy to transform his life in the face of these tools deserves no sympathy


      • More snakeoil. And he doesn’t look 50.


      • It does work. Paleo (or even a more paleo-ish diet) combined with a Cross-Fit style of exercise => a more healthy, strong, attractive man.

        Starting when I was about 10, my father owned a cutting-edge fitness center. He was ahead of his time. Professional football players used to travel to our state-of-the-art gym in the off-season to check out the new technology and ideas about fitness. This was the era when football players smoked and “trained” by drinking beer and getting in bar fights. Prior to modern, scientific strength training, weight-lifting was stuck around the mindset of circa 1900-1960 (you were expected to grunt out barbell reps until you collapsed). I’ve been around the fitness world my whole life.

        In all that time, I have never seen any pattern of diet and exercise more effective than low-carb combined the paleo-inspired short-burst weight-bearing style of exercise (P90x, Cross-fit, etc.). It’s never been easier to lean, strong and well-proportioned.

        DeVany knows what he’s talking about. He’s a mathematical economist, applying theories of complex systems to the human body. While I don’t always agree with every application of his theories, his theories are rock-solid.


      • I don’t know how old you are but if you’re under 40 you don’t even need any special diets or exercise. They have no effect on aging anyway and it’s all genetic.
        And unless you were a pro athelete men who went to gyms and lifted weights and worked out were all gay. Even when Arnold made it a bit more acceptable people still considered it homosexual for a long time.


    • It makes me very optimistic to read things like this. I’m 22 and have been on paleo/IF for about a year and lifting much longer than that.

      Paleo fucking works. You can actually eat till satiety and still be healthy, lose weight and retain muscle mass.


    • It’s relatively easy to be fit when you’re 23,

      Have you seen the average US 23 yo? Except for the grass eating ectos on here, there’s like 5x as many flabby fatties than when I was young. Just add some flip flop, baggy calf length shorts and a fanny pack and you’ll be consigned to the omega friendzone. 🙂
      Older men should dress in a more sophisticated way especially in their sportswear (casual clothes to you young ‘uns) A lot of older men have that sloppy ill fitting clothes look and probably had it when young but now it’s really more pronounced..You can just as well hang a sign around your neck reading, working class stumblebum and that is not interesting to any young female. Females are very attuned to these things even among guys her age who she’s friendzoned for looking like nerds or kids.
      And don’t talk about video games or how you’re a ccomputer programmer because she also views this as kid’s stuff(unless your name is Bill Gates)


      • I’ve said this elsewhere: dress like a grown-up. Button-down shirt, long pants, a sport coat if it’s not 100 degrees outside. There are several reasons for this.

        1. Sportswear (like shorts, t-shirts, spandex bike pants, etc.) only looks good on actual athletes. It doesn’t make you look like an athlete if you wear it, it exaggerates how much you don’t look like an athlete. Seriously: unless you actually get paid to play a sport, or are actually on the Olympic team or a college varsity team, don’t wear sportswear in public. It’s like dressing up as a Klingon or an elf.

        2. Don’t dress like a child. Children wear short pants, sneakers, and colorful shirts with cartoon characters on them. They think grown-up clothes are itchy. Now: how many women want to fuck little boys? And do you want to fuck a woman who likes to fuck little boys? No? Then don’t dress like one.

        3. Look at how actual alpha males dress. Silvio Berlusconi always appears in public in a suit, even when he’s dry-humping a female cop on camera. George Clooney (I know we keep coming back to him, but he really is a very attractive man) almost always appears in a sport coat and button-down shirt. World War II was fought and won by men in ties.

        4. The big secret is that grown-up clothes are designed to make grown-up men look good. They visually bulk out your shoulders and hide your gut. They cover your skinny pale legs. Let the talents of tailors and clothing designers help you.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Button-down shirt, long pants, a sport coat

        That’s simply what guys like Clooney and myself have always worn as sportswear. It’s just our everyday clothing or at prep with a tie.
        You must be a foreigner from Kansas perhaps? Sportswear is casual. The other stuff is called atheletic wear.
        And it’s just called a shirt not a button down. Button down means the polo collar on the Brooks shirts that button down.


      • I live in a highly SWPL town in New England where “dressing up” means breaking out the good sandals. Grown men old enough to have grandchildren walk about in public wearing spandex bicycling pants. Thirty-year-old men with good-paying creative jobs go to work in cargo shorts and superhero t-shirts. Fathers of small children take them to the park wearing t-shirts emblazoned with obscene slogans. To be honest, I expect people in Kansas dress much better.

        I used the term “button down shirt” to let people know that I wasn’t talking about a t-shirt or a rugby shirt or (god help us) an African Dashiki on a pudgy white dude. I’m with you, Chiparooney, but anyone who needs this advice needs it in clear, easy-to-understand terms.


      • So it’s one of those Podunk New England towns then.


      • MrChipps: “Have you seen the average US 23 yo? Except for the grass eating ectos on here, there’s like 5x as many flabby fatties than when I was young.”

        When I was in college, I remember most guys being somewhat grouped around the statistical middle — not jacked, not ecto, not fat.

        Today’s college-age men look entirely different to my eyes. They seem to fall more often into extremes — either extremely fit (they have access to better fitness routines than I was taught), extremely fat (high-fructose corn syrup), or extremely thin (mostly computer programmers and gamers, which in my day were known as “bookworms” since computers and games were primitive, to put it mildly).

        There seem to be fewer middle-of-the-road standard-issue guys.


      • Yes, there’s some truth to that. Either lardarses or nerdy ectodweebs and not many just fit average weight and build guys. The % of decent average girls of normal weight has gone down too although there is about the same % of good looking and slim but this group has always been small with the genetic celebrities and was never enough to go around. But at least formerly the 2nd tier girls were at least slimmer and fuckable. Girls also did not become chubby at such a young age and that was something associated with middle age although there were always some young fatties. Even the lower class girls weren’t as fat as today where it’s almost the norm in a lot of the US. Very few heavy females where I live and those are just big boned and titted females and I’ve never seen any obese. People are really breeding themselves into classes these days and when I’m in other areas I have to look twice because I’ve never seen the really fat. I guess that people who live in these areas are so used to it that they don’t even notice it and just think it’s normal. There’s also a lot of vanity sizing in the lower>mid range clothes because an woman’s 8-12 used to be average where today these are fat girl sizes.There were no 0 sizes and today these are really like a 4-6 formerly.


    • “Be youthful in spirit, but your tastes should not be molded to fit the current trends.”


      Refined, cultured tastes are timeless and universally attractive. Cultivate those rather than trying to keep up with the latest band or movie series that will be irrelevant a few years from now anyway.


    • But a man who is lean and strong at 43 is maybe one in a thousand.

      That’s true, but I think it goes even further than that. When you see a fit 22-year-old guy in a t-shirt and jeans, he looks 22 and fit. When you see a 40-year-old who’s that way, he look fit and solid. There’s a hardness that develops as a man ages, so if he’s in reasonably good shape, he becomes more manly with age, not less.


  22. I think you have to indirectly establish rapport with the girl. She has to know that she can talk to you and that you are interesting on her level, not like her Dad or other old people. However, you have to put it out there that you are available to her or she will just assume that you’ve got an older girlfriend or wife. Once you put it out there, be patient. Her initial reaction may be resistant, or even shock. But if you can maintain dominant frame, she will consider the offer. For some, the age gap is a deal-breaker. But its good to week those out. My advice would be to keep cool and maintain dominant frame, talk to her like an equal, not a child. Work in some pg13 teasing. Try to connect and then put it out there.


  23. Women — especially prime age women in the 18-24 year old bracket — possess very strong preconceived notions about how older men will act around them. A direct, choose or lose, style of approach may violate their preconceptions so thoroughly that they respond by shutting down.

    Well, the preconceived notion thing is exactly the problem, but if she knows from the beginning that this particular older man is “that kind of guy” then he’s got the opportunity to make a play without making her feel like her daddy (or grandpa) just made a pass at her.

    I’d go with the direct approach if I were that kind of old man. Letting the woman frame you first as a sweet, sexless old fool isn’t going to help later. Better that she thinks you’re a dirty old man from the beginning.

    I know this because I saw it work on several occasions when I was a little kid. Embarrassed the hell out of me back then, but it was one of those lessons you don’t forget.


  24. I’ve only discovered Game this year. My mentality fits the thin somatotype (ectomorph), an intellectual type without a feelings drive or locus, not that I don’t have feelings. I am able to open in nightlife setting and almost never trigger the cockblock. That is amazing to me. Also started using eyes ‘from the soul’ and preliminary results are very good. Last weekend, met a hot black woman who was much younger and I won over her body quickly–again, amazing to me–by using eye confirmation appropriately between her grinding pauses and then standing beside her group, but found out she is married so I bailed on # she would have given me. That ten or fifteen minutes was my best work so far, so my perspective is limited.

    I am in the Bible Belt. Rednecks like blacks and Hispanics do not see older men as too old. There are higher class whites who prevail in more urban settings that attract job seeker, like where I go out. Maybe the age limit irrelevance rubs off on non-redneck whites. I lack finances and worldly accomplishment, so I am forced into instinctive attraction as opposed to logical value. And yes, unhappily married women are the women who care least about real world value. They want their souls touched my a man’s soul, as all non-dyke women do to whatever intensity.

    Bottom line: I do better with 30 and under and I am mid-40s. I’m told I look a bit younger.

    Hypothesized reasons for better with 30 and under: (1) Older women are more likely to have kids which is bad logistics and mentality, divorce bitterness, a husband I don’t want to incense, a ticking biological clock and THE ONEitis, princess style with life-threatening commitment, (2) Frame in an older man who has intellectual surety and self-consistency is mentally very strong, stable, and deep. I know who I am, just not how to fit into this garbage citizenry…actually, I’m learning to wear instinctual clothes for the useful idiots, and (3) Second wave feminism completion, as I now explain.

    The way I see it, women who are (in 2012) aged 36-28 were in the waning ‘penumbra’ of 2nd wave in their formative years. The major psycho hit was on those aged 48-36. In 2nd wave, little girl had both Disney princess aspirations for the special man easily lording over most men without a care and also mommy’s struggle for workplace equality. Women about 28 and under never faced ‘the workplace struggle’ and so are not hostile. They presume and trust and the greener grass on the other side is worry-free convenience if not submission. I wonder if the men 28 and under are mostly so wrecked they are not able to develop values from experiences. Women 48-36 want it all neurotically and are hardened forever. Older than 48 and I see no potential for a nuclear family on a long shot and just sex has lost its bloom. Yes, I am generalizing on all this. I wonder if the forever marriages are mostly aged 48 and over now.

    In any event, here in the Bible Belt, I do better getting interest at least at 30 and under and the looks are a free bonus. It would not be that way in a sane country. So many women over 30 with kids fool themselves into thinking they have time for a man but the kids come first as they should and she is NOT available, just fooling herself and any attentive suitor. Maybe (I lack experience here) younger moms have more energy, and so do their moms for watching the kids. Once all kids leave the nest and old bag is ready for Prince Charming–how kind of her–she is ready for her life to come first (as read on dating sites), and she is Tales of the Crypt beautiful outside just like inside.


  25. Being in better shape in my 40’s than most guys I see at clubs in their 20’s has absolutely given me an edge over the younger competition. Combining a good physique with a fairly aggressive direct approach has landed me numerous women 12-20 years my junior for both LTR’s and pump-n-dumps.


    • Fitness is key… both for maximum inner self-confidence and outward attractiveness.

      I’ve found weight lifting (with a reasonable supplement of aerobic activity than doesn’t kill the knees) to be the only true natural fountain of youth.


  26. pardon me, but i thought divorced women over 30 are the bread and butter for older guys. that’s my plan at least until my late 50’s. am i wrong?


    • An Alpha doesn’t take sloppy 23rds no matter how old he is (meaning that the woman had sex 23 times already)


      • Yeah ok, but what about someone who’s less than alpha? game is not “you are either a total beta or a total alpha”


      • Upper Betas can do well in many countries. The answer is to move before your local feminist society tells you what you have to date. Betas can show some pride and standards. Just say no to what you’d consider second rate if you were somewhere else.


      • That’s where it becomes hard to discern – the recently divorced woman who was married to her husband for 15 years or so is by far the better bet than the woman who is 35+ who has barely had long term relationships, much less been married.

        The ones that are 39+ who have never been married I have found to be completely broken as human beings, nevermind as women. They are good for an easy shag though.


    • Maybe the Mickey D’s of older guys. Cheap and fast, but crappy and bad for your health.


    • Older women are the training ground for the younger women.


    • Wrong! The whole fucking point of the peer reviewed seduction community is that liberated women operate on instincts of evolutionary species-wide judgment. Women are not the judges of meme evolution like they are of gene evolution! Men have not forced women to evolve into rational beings with enough generations of civilization, assuming that is the tendency.

      There is no try! Pretend and also be or do not. Her perception is her reality. No one is true alpha in civilized society (a good thing), but the closer to ‘alpha’ persona the better as pretense. A woman’s evolutionary programming is at its most intense during night game. They reject harder AND accept harder. But female natural selection of men works how it works always. The closer to feral alpha you can pretend to be, the more she can’t help but be interested because her judgment is instinct. If she goes down princess laundry list of what you do, etc., she is using logic but not rationally. Women are more and more feral with more and more liberation. Find a hot one who responds.

      I totally don’t think directness/indirectness is a function of age difference. It is a function of social context. Start with vibe: I am so successful I expect to find fun people, including women superficially like you or hotter for sex. Being desperate with a chic near your age makes you a creep. Being desperate with a chic much younger makes you a creeper. So what? Be proud of what you have to offer, touch people’s souls by wearing attractive empathy signals (feral communication), attract conversations about pop culture, employment leads, and sex–just because the world happens to be your oyster. Chics ALWAYS dig that. Game takes study of principles and repetition to develop basically one (or two) principles at a time (at least for newbie me). The Mystery Method framework is the standard for a reason. No age options to it. Risk being creepy and learn to be assertively attractive like a kid in a social candy store who loves discovering new flavors. When you can make eye contact without creeping out, you have your first Jedi skill.


  27. Anonymous – women in their 30’s come with a whole other set of baggage, and yes, I’ve been involved with my fair share of them. Frankly, my experience with women in their 30’s has been somewhat nightmarish, they are pretty f*cking psycho a lot of the time, and once they see you as potential mate material, the games and the shit tests go into serious high gear. I personally don’t have a lot of patience for that anymore, and I find myself kicking them to the curb a fuck of a lot. This year alone I’ve kicked 3 to the curb for their bullshit.


  28. Here are some recent experiences of a man in his fifties in England.

    I could make lots of excuses about England being full of politically correct socialist man-hating hags (true) or the reserved English character (true) but the truth is I am new to game and it is still scary. On several occasions I have had some very helpful support in the comments here from YaReally (many thanks my friend).

    Direct game is a complete non-starter, maybe because of the social/political climate in England. More likely it is because in England men my age are supposed to be either married or gay, so English women think a direct approach is sleazy. Also the logistics of night game are a problem for me right now, for reasons too tedious to explain. So indirect day game it is.

    I have completely changed by approach to women (previously a supplicant beta, all my cheating ex-wife’s friends described me as “the nicest man I have ever met”). What has been working for me is:

    Seeing the flaws in a woman on approach (that is a biiig ass..) which helps me approach with utter confidence.

    Utter confidence in myself is a must, because otherwise I cannot seem to hold the women’s attention (I am generally aiming at women 20 years younger than me).

    I dress and groom very well (Savile Row suits, shirts from Milan).

    I approach with funny, quirky observations and gentle negs. I recently started using compliment takeaways, which I am finding more difficult to do well. I always make sure my energy is good and I never use lame openers (It’s true, English people talk about the weather to open a conversation). Conversations are getting personal quite quickly, which I think is a sign of improvement. Also I rarely strike out, women enjoy talking to me. I have to remember not to become the entertainment monkey, which was a problem at first.

    So have gone from the stage of waiting for an introduction to one where I will talk to any woman at the drop of a hat. Now in the stage of getting numbers.

    Currently receiving IOIs from two women, one a well-preserved, very very sexy gal (early forties) in the Digital Media business, but our schedules (different parts of the country) have kept us from getting beyond that.

    Second is a 27 year old Italian woman, slim, beautiful, but feisty and poor. I can see she likes me but am trying to work out whether she thinks this is a sugar-daddy opportunity. Which is not what I want. I may be too cautious with this one.

    My issues right now are:

    Still get anxious during approaches. Twice I have been so wrapped up in getting my approach right that I have walked away from what, in hindsight, were obvious IOIs.

    Not doing enough approaches. If I am tired (it happens when you get older) or work is not going well, I make excuses not to approach.

    Flaking. I am getting numbers but not enough, and almost all of my number closes flake.

    So this is where I am. Currently assessing the situation in order to decide what to do to get laid. The most important things at the moment are:

    I am enjoying the chase/number closure

    I now have no fear of women.

    I am finding it difficult to convert.

    Your feedback on my experience is most welcome.


    • I can help with the flaky numbers problem.

      Skip the number close completely! Tell the girl that you’ll be doing [activity x] at [time and place] and invite her to come out and do it with you.

      The reason you do this is girls will often flake on a guy they actually LIKE. It’s really fucking annoying, but it happens all the time. Sometimes it’s a shit test, sometimes it’s ASD, and sometimes she’s just being a bitch. Whatever it is, you don’t really care, you just don’t want to put up with it.

      So don’t get her number, and don’t give her yours. Now she has two options. She can flake on your date. But she doesn’t have your information so she can’t call and explain why. You don’t have her information, so you can’t call and reschedule. If she flakes, she never EVER gets to see you again. Or she can show up.

      If you’ve done your job right, you’ve raised enough value that she wants to see you again. Thus she’ll show up.

      I started doing that and my flake percentage went way downhill. As a side benefit, the activity I invite the girls on is always something I was planning on doing anyways! Going on a hike, having a latte, or heading up to the hills for some shooting practice. If the girl doesn’t show up, it’s only a small loss. I’ve still got a fun afternoon ahead of me!


    • on August 21, 2012 at 8:40 pm Sredny Vashtar


      You’re right about the UK- direct approaches are like the first day of the Somme.

      In relation to your number game- are you waiting a few days before a casual text? It’s a good idea not to be too eager. In any case, even a super alpha will get a 60% flake rate: it’s just life.


    • Theorize->Field Test->(repeat). You need to change something on purpose. I suggest studying vibe and eye contacts, starting at seductionbase.com.


    • How tall are you and what’s your weight?


    • John,

      Have to second Special K’s advice. If the number business becomes such a hurdle, and it usually is, find a way of dispensing with it. Find some local event where people will be having fun, if that isn’t too fantastical a thing in the UK, tell her to be there or be square, and be the fucking life of the party. Or just say, this is where I hang out.

      Also check out Craigslist San Francisco “missed connections”. It is clogged with women leaving notes for men they felt overwhelming attraction for on sight — but I promise you that if most of them were to ask for a number and try texting, they’d get nowhere.


  29. While I’m not an older dude, I would say this- Your style should be impeccable, you should be well groomed, and not fat.

    Many girls do cream for silver foxes and attractive older men, but…. there are none to be found because a lot of you old fools are sloppy.

    Regardless, if you’re dressed well and all that and have taken good care of yourself, I see a couple opportunities to play this

    (indirect) The conversationalist with stories of adventure and whatnot in his youth, a man who is finitely more experienced and travelled than she will ever be. Among wine and devilishly increasing kino, you regale her, and seal the deal.

    (direct) Vicki Christina Barcelona type shit, the older man with swag x1000


    • Your style should be impeccable, you should be well groomed, and not fat.

      yeah, think james bond. fit, impeccably dressed, can slay women of any age.

      but sadly, as the west gets fatter and fatter, even being closer to austin powers than james bond can give you a leg up over a lot of other guys.


    • This seems accurate. It’s more difficult to be attractive as a man (or woman, but that’s another story) ages, so it’s more impressive when it is achieved.


    • Speaking as an older guy (mid-40s), this is spot on.

      It is incredibly important take good care of oneself and be well-groomed (have a style, a ‘look’).

      Being overweight is said to physically age a person by up to 10 years or more, and this is also the case with appearance after around age 30 or so. Conversely, in today’s society where so many people, especially middle-aged and older, are overweight, being fit and well-groomed will reduce your apparent age (and physical feeling) by at least 20%, and maybe more depending on your genes.


    • Gabardines and clean, polished shoes with matching belt are an absolute requirement. Practically does the work for you. I still get the looks and I’m 55, often from a girl with her young male partner who is dressed in cargo pants and stupid-ass tshirt.


  30. As an older PUA, i find it more effective to DHV myself until i notice iois. Silently telling me she is interested in sex opens a door that allows me entrance to her heart.

    And i walk through it.

    An older man needs to deal with her fears. By using a little more conversation, a man can find out what fears she has and respond by demonstrating how she need not have those fears with him.

    Having said that, I am finding more young women approaching me. Maybe it is age. Maybe it is because I am far more skilled in PUA DO than I used to be. I don’t know how I am attracting them…to paraphrase that wisened sage, Mr. Nunamaker, when commenting on how positraction works, “I just do.”

    When they do open me, I assume the sale. I know they have a couple concerns about swwming like a slut, so I have a couple easy to meet qualifiers to show I am the high valued man they think I am. Once I do that, I go direct.


    • Swwming = (fat-fingered version of) Seeming


    • What are these easy qualifiers, if you’d be kind enough to share a couple?


      • Depends on the situation. I have so many that they come out without thinking about them.

        But things like, “What kind of music do you like?” “What’s your favorite food?” I use these to push-pull. One moment I will confirm that her opinion is like mine, which I will qualify further…such as “I like jazz…” “That’s cool. Old Style Louis Armstrong Jump Jazz, easy listening Michael Bolton, or fusion?” …whatever she says, I bounce off of…if she says Jump Jazz, then I again agree. If she says Michael Bolton, I chide her hard for being tone deaf.

        That is just one example that is among several.

        Usually with food, I comment on the best place to find that food in the area.


  31. You just gotta be cool like me. You can be a little fat too. Women don’t mind it as much as they say they do.


    • Yeah but sex sucks when you’re a fatass. I was 60 lbs overweight and every time I had sex, I used to sweat like in a marathon, and breathe like an elephant. My dick was also a full inch shorter because of all the fat, my erections were inconsistent, and my cumshots were weak.

      Nothing beats a lean athletic cad, even when you’re old.


    • Most of mine say I’m crazy for worrying about those few extra pounds, and that they like it. It’s the “bear” allure. They like mass. You will meet more women who say they like a “big” man than a “lean” one.


  32. I’m 42, am decently successful in the sexual market, and two things jump out right away: First, older men should generally stay out of clubs and the wilder night venues. 30 is about the high point for that behavior, maybe. Older than that and you’re seen as the old creep, leering at the young. Bars are somewhat better. You’re more able to pull off the solo vibe in a bar, especially if you’ve got unreal confidence. But certainly, older men roving in packs is strictly off-putting. It speaks of corporate hacks at a convention away from the wives looking for easy tail. Not good if you want anything other than the slut fives and below. Two, maybe three guys out should be the limit. But certainly a confident, solo older man can swoop if he goes indirect with calm, unshakable game and NO bending; no neediness of any kind. Total indifference to her wanting or not wanting is key. It should seem like you’ve done this thousands of times before. Scripted; smooth; detached. Being sexual creatures, hot young women know what’s coming; they just want to see it done expertly, and they assume that an older man knows what to do.

    Second, being introduced into a younger group by a median-aged female is a good strategy. Not someone old enough to be a mother-figure, nor someone young enough to be a peer, but someone the younger females can view as a good judge of character. In other words, you’ve already been vetted. Dinner parties, house parties, gatherings of like-minded people (art crowd, sports crowd, etc.) are decent ways to work into the younger set.

    I’m in an outrigger paddling club, and we mix with the younger teams regularly, both in practice and during regattas. Being part of the group takes away the weird older-guy vibe and replaces it with a comfortable comradery. Obviously, for the sports set you need to be in good shape to do something like this; but trust me, if you’re in good shape, even with a touch of gray on the sides, and can walk with confidence, the younger set WILL give you a try.


    • The club scene has been great for me, I have pulled a ton of young tail out of those places. As I mentioned in an earlier post, at our age (40’s) it’s all about having a nice physique and assertive, confident game (as you also mention above).


    • “First, older men should generally stay out of clubs and the wilder night venues. 30 is about the high point for that behavior, maybe.”

      Nah. Most of the RSD instructors are early 30s. It comes down to your own comfort level though. If you feel like the crowd is “too young” and you’re self-conscious about being there, they’re going to pick up on that vibe from you and you WILL be out of place.

      You can always hit the “old people nightclubs” (most cities have at least one) but then you’re stuck choosing from wrinkly old chicks with baggage lol


      • You’re absolutely right about that self-consciousness thing. It applies to everyone, of course. You should never be self-conscious, because it always shows. However, one of the great things about age is that you tend to lose a lot of that self-consiousness of youth. Try to cultivate the who-gives-a-fuck worldly above-it-all attitude If you don’t have it by the time you’re middle-aged, you are screwed; it is THE sign of maturity. Without it, you are just an old creeper. Don’t act young. Act mature, but not old. See Jamse Bond. You CAN get a girl 20 years your junior, senior.

        Still, I hate clubs. Too loud. Throw a party instead. In your big fucking mansion. Have it catered, with gorgeous young twenty-year old girls serving the drinks and hors d’oeuvres. You can afford it, because you are at your peek-earning years, and everyone loves to be around beauty, guys AND girls.


      • Try to cultivate the who-gives-a-fuck worldly above-it-all attitude

        After a certain age you don’t have to cultivate anything.You’re not pretending to be indifferent, you really are.


      • on August 27, 2012 at 4:38 pm Mr. Pointyface

        early 30’s not old. hard for 20 yo chix to differentiate 27 from 33. after 45-50 is the tough part.


  33. I find that the best bet is to just go to a place where young women WANT to meet older men, and then you just go direct. But the secret is finding the place in town where younger women go to meet older guys. It’s not the college pub.


    • Hey, it’s tenmagnet. Awesome.

      On that note, lovesystems has a 30+ forum at http://www.theattractionforums.com/30-forum/ that’s a solid read for guys hitting the “am I getting too old for this?” self-doubts.

      The RSD forum skews pretty young and the sosuave mature man forum is just awful, so I recommend the lovesystems one if you want more game/PUA specific reading on this stuff (vs manosphere game).


  34. It really helps if you go to the place where younger women go to meet older guys. Trying to pick up at the local college pub looks a bit odd if you’re over 30.


  35. on August 21, 2012 at 5:13 pm blackbird.young

    I’m writing a comment because my opinion is of the Essence.


  36. I’m currently dating a girl 10 years younger (this being the second time I’ve done so and I’m never going back to jaded, bitter, biological clock ticking old broads). It seems to me that for serial monogamy purposes, indirect game demonstrating that you are a mature, responsible alpha unlike their college “brosef” classmates is the key. These girls will tell you that they are hit on by creepers and loser dudes with no game all damn day. They know they are young and hot and all men want them. No man just befriends a college girl.

    They usually throw out the age difference as a shit test, but they really don’t care because their jumblies are all excited that a real man is interested in them. However, it will remain an issue because their families (aka their beaten down by feminists beta father’s) deny that older man/younger woman is the natural order of the world. I’ve never been anything less than honest in my intentions (I like hanging out with you, but you have growing to do and we both know we will eventually part ways) and they are more than happy to have their fling and get some great, grown-up experiences from the relationship.

    Another tip to keep the young ones around is to actually be cultured (which is part and parcel of being the alpha male pack leader). After you land the digits, a perfect first date is a museum followed by a cool, ethnic restaurant. It’s something her fellow 22 years olds would never do. HTH.


  37. Older women are the training ground for the younger women

    Words of wisdom!

    As an older PUA, i find it more effective to DHV myself until i notice iois

    Now that I am getting closer to 30, the way to DHV is through table service. It helps a lot to have money for that…


    • Money game will attract gold diggers. Not saying that is bad. Just saying.


      • Money game will attract almost all girls, including gold diggers. If you want to avoid the gold diggers you then have to screen them out, which may be a pain.

        Game guys (other than a few true experts) often get this wrong and assume you should hide your wealth and status act like a poor college student. All is fair in love and war. Use all the resources you have at your disposal.


      • This is a big mistake some older guys make. If you are an older guy and single with no kids, you better have some money. If you don’t have lots of extra money, you are a real loser.

        This is why car, clothes, haircut, etc. matter more if you are older. Buying nice stuff is not being materialistic, and women that notice it are not necessarily gold diggers at all.


    • True…


  38. on August 21, 2012 at 5:47 pm sameoldsameold

    Off Topic:
    Future betaboys of america react after seeing movie, “The Odd Life Of Timothy Green”


    • These boys are old enough to hear a stern “KNOCK OFF THE CRYING AND BE A MAN!” from pops, and then a calm explanation about the realities of life and death in this system of things… and perhaps then an explanation of how death came to be, and the hope of what the future holds when death is no more.

      In the boys’ defense, though, one child’s overblown emotional trauma is catching and becomes a catalytic reaction amongst the others if not nipped in the bud, rather than amusingly encouraged by these (pah, bad taste in the mouth) SWPLs.


    • ghey


  39. If I practice anything at 51 that could be called ‘game’ it would be indirect game.

    I have had four, make that five women actually approaching me recently, each easily less than half my age. Of those five, one definitely had ‘daddy problems’ broken home, parents living apart – that, and her excessively large breasts for her otherwise petite body size disqualified her.

    I imagine that daughters of divorced parents might be a rich vein to mine.


    • “her excessively large breasts for her otherwise petite body size disqualified her.”

      God bless y’all semi-gays who find big titties off-putting.

      More titties for me.


      • The old guys know the truth about big jugs.


      • Yeah, gravity is their enemy. Small breasts will still look good decades later.


      • Anon: “God bless y’all semi-gays who find big titties off-putting.”

        There ain’t much wrong with large breasts, it’s just that 80% of the girls were closer to my ideal. In another five years, I’ll be less discriminating if I find it becomes necessary.


      • God bless y’all semi-gays who find big titties off-putting.
        More titties for me.

        I’m with you on that…

        Yeah, the real big ones might sag as the years roll on, but it still beats half-a-handful… and many hold up just fine… and I was put on this earth to hold up my share.


  40. To my experience, it works best if you just don’t make age an issue, but behave like it’s the most normal thing on earth that a mid-30ies guy hits on an early 20 chick. If you are mentally young and behave mature, she will soon forget (or even start to appreciate) the age gap. Of course, teasing her sometimes that she is sweet, but naive or otherwise too inexperienced for you works fantastic.


    • So true. Back when I was in the prime age bracket, I went out with a couple guys that were ~10 years older than me. I didn’t think it was an issue at all but I remember one brought it up, and he just seemed *too* excited about the fact I was 22, which creeped me out. We’re conditioned from early on to only associated with people our own age (school being set up how it is) but in the grand scheme of things a man being 10 years older than a woman isn’t that big of a deal- so don’t act like it is!


    • on August 22, 2012 at 4:48 am Days of Broken Arrows

      Good point. This also goes for height. This why I was pulling taller tale as a high school senior — it had never occurred to me I wasn’t entitled to it.

      College and feminist bullshit will fuck you up good. Avoid that.


      • How right…as a man, If you don’t make it an issue, she won’t either. I’m only 5’6”, but handsome, fit and full of relaxed game – the ladies cue up!


  41. As a man in his late thirties I always found I was most successful with a straight up approach – a little cocky, more about culture, and cracked the odd neg. Really I think it was the talk about culture that really sealed the deal. Women in their mid to late 20’s can’t find a straight man, let alone many Alphas, who do things like attend the opera or orchestra. For a second or third date, I would get more action after dropping $20 on cheap rush tickets and having her buy two martinis at the bar beforehand then I can remember. Something about putting on that little black dress and going to a cultural event with a guy in a suit really gets the hamster going. I always counsel guys in the late 30’s to early 40’s who want to work the 27-32 crows to ramp up their local culture credibility and to work that angle.

    Well that was then, now looking to get out of the game. Once was married for three years in my early twenties. It ended in divorce because I was a beta chump. Then I found a guy who turned me on the early PUA stuff on the web in the late 90’s. Been working game ever since. The girlfriend who has been around about the last four years really wants to get hitched. About a year ago, we had a conversation where she told me in a sincere way (at least for a woman) that she really wanted to get married and if I wasn’t that guy she wanted to know so she could move on. I told her I would sincerely think about but needed a year. She reluctantly agreed.

    Now that year is almost up. (Talk about dread game, she has been on edge now for about eleven months). Figured though if I was going to remarry she was as good as anyone and I ought to think about it seriously. Who was I to have the moral authority to string her along if it was her sincere belief. Started out by buying a $500 ring at Macys. (It looks more like a $2000 ring and is pretty nice, but not too nice…seriously guys if you want a perfectly acceptable ring ignore the jewelry stores and just go to a big box department store). Then I read all the standard anti-marriage blogs again. Visited my lawyer too. He drew up a rock solid pre-nup. I was actually pretty surprised by what you can put in those things (at least in my state). Even put in a perfectly legal clause that if she wants a no fault divorce she has to pay a $5,000 penalty to me AND I get to either boot her out of the house or she has to pay 6 months of my living expenses if I opt to move out. Also, talked to all my married friends whose opinions ranged from hell no to its not soooo bad. Even had a two month long discrete fling that I just wrapped up.

    After all this I figured why not try marriage one more time. Maybe I am crazy. Maybe I drank the kool aid. Maybe that makes me a beta chump. I don’t know. Just think where I am in life with who I am with it makes sense. It comes with a few riders that are non-negotiable. 1) small, inexpensive wedding 2) pre-nup is a must and 3) chill honeymoon then we just go about living our lives.

    Just not sure how and when to ask her. It certainly won’t be elaborate or in any way involve her friends or family. It will just be her and me in a casual way. We have a planned European vacation coming up in a month and I figured to just give her the ring on random night. Or I was also thinking of just sliding across the table at dinner. I think I am leaning toward Europe. Pop the question half way through the trip. Get some killer sex. Then come back and take care of the legalities such as the pre-nup.

    So there you have it a story about how game worked for an old guy. I really don’t even know why I decided to type the entire story here, but there it is. if you have any thoughts on how I should do it or think I am making the worst mistake of my life please make it known.


    • Don’t. Get. Married.

      Tell her that you love her, that you honestly doubt that someone else can care for her or love her the way you do. But you can’t get married. If she won’t fall for “we don’t need a paper and state sanction to be in love”, then make it clear that marriage will only ruin things, that most married people are miserable. That “we don’t need marriage, what we need is kids”, if you don’t have problems with kids.

      Tell her something, anything, in the most alpha way possible. If she freaks out, show some beta compassion.

      You fucked up big time when you asked for one year. You should have asked for 3 months… or 20 years.

      Prenups are a joke. There’s no such thing as iron clad prenup.

      She will get bored after the marriage. The only thing that keeps her on her toes is the thrill of the suspense, the haunting idea that she may be wasting her life with you. Once you strip her from these powerful emotions, she will get bored. If she doesn’t get bored, she will get old.

      Marriage is for chumps. Wake up, alpha boy.


    • You’re not making a mistake. I’m 42 and about to marry a 29 year old. Game isn’t just about endless PUA. It’s also about vetting and sifting for what you really want. I gamed a shit-ton of girls to find one that I can deal with. I want kids, she wants kids. Otherwise I wouldn’t bother getting hooked. She comes from a solid family with still-married parents and strong values, so I think she’s serious about having a marriage like her parents. I’ve met her father, and he runs his house. This girl knows what it’s like to see her mother submit AND be happy doing it. I like that part. Besides, they’re second generation Eastern European from a tight ethnic enclave, so she hasn’t been totally wrecked by the femcunts. She still prefers dresses and likes being feminine. All these considerations are way more important when you’re going down this road.

      But I’ll be pretty much doing the same thing you’re doing. Very small wedding with only intimate family; low-key affair, nothing monstrous. She takes my name, she bears my children and works or not works when the kids come; but she accedes that’s my decision. What I say goes has already been established up front; it’s my game to lose from here on out.

      I could continue to game younger women, but this one seems a good fit, so what the hell. Life ain’t forever, and as much as 40 year olds like to say they can game forever, we all know that’s not possible. Eventually you slow down, so throw your hat in the ring while you still can. And despite your pre-prep, if this one still takes you to the cleaners? Fuck it. Resolve it and move to the Philippines to bang your remaining years away.

      But I don’t think it’ll go that way if you have strong hand. Read all of Athol Kay’s website and stay forever alpha… scare her every once in a while.

      “Marriage is a young man’s curse and an old man’s comfort.”


    • “then we just go about living our lives.”

      Right. You sound like you’re bringing a dog home from the pound.
      Fill out the papers. Get her spayed. Buy her a dinner bowl. You
      need to find out exactly what “living our lives” means TO HER.

      Now I wouldn’t blame you for thinking, “hey asshole I’m the one
      who’s been with her for four years, not you,” but you’ve been with the girl, not THE WIFE.

      Ask her for specifics about money, housing, work, etc. If she says she doesn’t care about any of that as long as she’s with you then
      run for your life.

      And her friends and family who won’t in any way be involved, well
      how long will that last? Are they kooks? Tell us about her mother.
      What about YOUR friends? Will they get taken out and shot in that
      particular American Wife style?

      I only comment because you invited and your story resembles my younger brother’s. He thought he was marrying a chill chick, turned out he was giving Hitler the enabling act.


    • Alas, I am forced to agree with the other posters. Women have the attention span of a hamster on crack — with betas (like myself) at least. In <10 years, she'll be seeing the pool boy behind your back. Unless you absolutely adore children, avoid marriage like the proverbial plague.


    • Yeah, I’d start by bringing that pre-nup to another lawyer and asking how many tries he would need to wipe his ass clean with it. Of course there are probably other ways of protecting your assets if you really want to form a family


    • So she wants to “move on” if you don’t do what she wants? Perhaps guys like you need to learn that men and females really have nothing in common. She’s getting older and she wants a kid and needs some support and security to do it. Marriage is boring and all work for the man even under perfect conditions. If you really like compromising about every little thing or feel that you’re too happy single then by all means get married. And just remember that you know what you have but you don’t know what you’ll get. Her problems will become your problems and you’ll feel like you’re never alone in your house and free to do what you want. You want her family to become a part of your life or attending her sister’s birthday party or other nonsense then go right ahead and marry. You may as well forget sex too because you’ll be totally bored with her sexually in a few weeks of living with her or she just won’t be in the mood.
      Happy honeymoon and come back in 6 months and let us know how you’re doing 🙂


    • Come on, dude. You said it yourself: women can’t really be sincere. Sincere for a woman is still a lying, childish bitch who’ll make your life worse. At any rate, why would you sign yourself up for a woman’s lifetime of aging? A woman is only good for one thing and once the fine lines start to show, she becomes completely worthless. Females are bed mates, not companions. You can’t actually share a life with them. Be honest, this girl isn’t and never will be able to provide actual support, understanding, friendship or love. Females are incapable of such feats. And unless she knows her place and keeps her mouth shut during the day, at all times, I fail to see why you’d ruin your trip to Europe by dragging her along. And did I mention that she’ll get old and become a tiresome eyesore? The only older woman a man should have to deal with is his mother, and even that is a cruel burden.


    • Considering marriage?

      Check out http://www.marriedmansexlife.com for advice on how to make it work


    • on August 24, 2012 at 10:06 am your male hind-brain

      Look dude…

      This site has helped me avoid a messy divorce, and you put your situation out here, so I’d like to give back a little…

      Anon at 7:58 and Feral1404 are both right.

      Marriage can work out ok, but it takes even MORE alpha to make it not go to shit… (Think about how solid your frame has to be when you BOTH know that your “walking away” will cost you just about everything you’ve spent your life working for, and how hard it is to maintain your attitude of “abundance”…)

      From what you’ve stated, I don’t think you should get married at this time, for these reasons, to this woman… That may change next week, I can’t say….

      First point to think about.

      “The girlfriend who has been around about the last four years really wants to get hitched. About a year ago, we had a conversation where she told me in a sincere way (at least for a woman) that she really wanted to get married and if I wasn’t that guy she wanted to know so she could move on. I told her I would sincerely think about but needed a year. She reluctantly agreed.”

      This seems like a classic shit test (“Give me what I want, or else…”) …and you failed…

      SHE really wants to get hitched? Well, duh…what woman doesn’t want financial security at your expense? The question really should be “what do YOU want?” What do YOU get out of being married….to her…

      Her “dread” for this last 11 months is probably less about losing you and more about her having to face the prospect of “settling” for you (beta provider).

      Just because you had something on the side, doesn’t make you alpha… and if she was good enough to get with for a couple of months, why not wife HER up? If she wasn’t “better,” why stay for the couple months, and not just bang the future-wife instead?… (I really do understand about variety. I’m just sayin’ think about your situation from the outside…)

      “Who was I to have the moral authority to string her along if it was her sincere belief.” Where did you get the moral authority to be bangin’ her all this time without being married? Also, what about YOUR sincere belief?….

      Why does a ring have to be perfectly acceptable? Why spend the money a “nice, but not too nice” ring? Who are trying to impress? Her? You? Your friends? Her family?

      Wilson is right. “Rock solid” pre-nups do not exist. Don’t believe me? Take that pre-nup to another lawyer (a GOOD family lawyer) and pay the money and ask him/her to tell you how hard it would be to break it, if he/she were representing your future soon-to-be-ex in your divorce. Ask for percentages regarding possible outcomes. Also, ask about your exposure for child-support, which is NEVER a part of pre-nup.

      Next point. Small, inexpensive weddings are still legally binding…

      Next point. How to ask her to marry you? Are you worried that she will say “no?” You want to make it special, so she won’t criticize you throughout your marriage for doing it wrong?

      Next point. Trip to Europe to have “killer sex?” You don’t get killer sex NOW? Wherever and whenever you want it? If not, you sure won’t get it AFTER the wedding.

      You get the point. So, here is something concrete that you can do to determine if YOU are ready to be married to HER.

      Tell her that you have made your decision on the marriage. Take her into the living room. Hold her hands and look deeply into her eyes. Tell her that you are NOT going to marry her, and that you NEVER will… Then, tell her to go to the kitchen to make you a sammich and get you a beer, while you sit down to watch the game. Pat her on the butt as you turn her around to point her to the kitchen…

      YOUR reaction to doing THAT will tell you everything you need to know about how your marriage to her will be in the future….


    • on August 24, 2012 at 11:50 am male hind-brain

      Look dude….

      I want to help out, since you put yourself out there, but the interwbz has eaten 2 replys already, so here’s something concrete you can do without the long-post analysis.

      Tell her that you have decided. Bring her into the living room. Hold her hands and look deeply into her eyes. Tell her that you will NOT marry her, and that you NEVER will. Then, tell her to go to the kitchen and make you a sammich and get you a beer. Pat her on the butt as you turn her and point her to the kitchen. You sit down to watch the game….

      YOUR reaction to doing that will tell you everything you need to know about how your marriage to her will work out for you….


  42. It’s important for guys (of any age) to understand that Indirect doesn’t mean Asexual.

    If you’re obviously older than her, she needs to know you’re a sexual older man who’s been around and knows how to fuck. All you’re doing with indirect is not making it obvious that you’ve chosen her to be the one you want to fuck next. You don’t sit there and talk about Glee lol This means you make sexual jokes, innuendo, comments, talk about sex and sexual stories, get her talking about her fantasies, etc. instead of avoiding all that and being asexual. If she’s into older men, she’ll shoot you IOIs, and then you escalate fast as fuck (you’re an important older man with shit to do, you don’t have time to play txt games for weeks, you don’t have Facebook, etc.).

    You also want to bring the vibe that you’re qualifying/screening her a lot more. Most older guys go in with her up on the pedestal since she’s the young hot chick and he’s the “creepy old guy” so naturally he should have to impress her, but you want to approach it from the reverse: You’re the older, mature, experienced, accomplished man and she’s just a silly young girl who hasn’t done shit with her life yet so she should be trying to impress you.

    You’re not trying to show her you can fit into her world, you’re trying to decide if she can fit into yours.

    I like to drop stuff like “Have you ever been with an older man?” early on, like when they ask my age, because it sets the frame of “I’m sizing you up, sexually, so if you’re not interested you should run away right now” but doesn’t say “I want to fuck you”…it’s just letting her know that you’re already screening her and haven’t decided if you want to fuck her yet.

    “I find that some girls are intimidated by older men…but you don’t seem like you’re the type that GETS intimidated, are you?” (qualifying, cold-reading, etc.)

    You’re gonna’ get a lot of younger chicks who just completely won’t fuck you because of your age, even if they like you and are attracted to you…the numbers are too much of a mind-fuck for her. Like I met a chick 2 years older than me and she was self-conscious about her being older than me and mentioned “robbing the cradle”. Like, really? 2 YEARS is cradle-robbing?? lol

    I don’t like to lie about my age, but sometimes the girl needs (and wants) you to. Actual pre-makeout conversation with a 20yo from the other weekend:

    Her: “How old are you?”
    Me: “31.”
    Her: “No way, you’re not 31. Ew that’s gross, how old are you REALLY?”
    Me: “Okay, 26.”
    Her: “Whew, good. I’m SO glad you’re not 31…”

    She WANTED to make-out, but she needed me to be within the maximum age range she’s always pictured she could get with. And since she was attracted by that point there was no WAY (in her mind) that I could be past that maximum age range because she couldn’t possibly be attracted to someone older than it.

    A big thing that helps older guys too, is social proof. Get to know the staff at some regular places and make friends that you can go out with so you look like an important “man-about-town” instead of just a creepy guy with a beer by himself in an 18yo bar doing laps.

    Also take care of your grooming and style and shit. A 40yo woman wearing mom-jeans and hair from the 80s isn’t a “hot cougar” lol Get some exercise too, because by 30+ you should have cultivated an interest in taking care of your body. At 20 when you’re scarfing down McD’s every night no one gives a shit, you’re young, you have time to become responsible…but at 30+ you should really be demonstrating “I take care of my health”. Plus you’ll be able to fuck better, and you’ll need the energy to keep up with the young-un’s.

    Remember that “What you feel, she feels”, so if you feel like your age difference is weird, she will. If you don’t, she won’t (unless like I said, she has specific hang-ups about going past a certain age range, which lots of the 18yo’s will because they haven’t even fucked a guy their age let alone their dad’s age). And a girl’s biggest fear is social judgement, so don’t go hang out with her and her friends (unless they’re female and you think you can charm them too so they approve). If she’s all “come meet me at BarX” and you go there and she’s there with her 6 18yo orbiter guy-friends in their Abercrombie shit, you shot yourself in the foot lol

    Anyway, in summary: For older guys I’d say go indirect and make her qualify herself while making sure the conversation is sexual, and if she’s into you she’ll shoot you an IOI or try to qualify herself to you (“oh my last boyfriend was 35!”) and then you escalate the situation like a motherfucker the second you get that IOI.


    • Me: “Okay, 26.”
      Her: “Whew, good. I’m SO glad you’re not 31…”

      I never get tired of doing that. You just can’t be over their limit! Icky.

      I go absurdly low with the age to amuse myself. Twenty-three! lzolzozlz

      When I was 23, I had a 15 year old girlfriend, and sat night after night at her parents’ dinner table pretending to be an 18 year old just going off to college. Good times.


  43. I’m 36 and haven’t significantly changed my game in 20 years, at least not consciously. While I have gotten older, my girlfriends/hookups have remained the same age, 20-25. Maybe I’ve enjoyed success with younger women simply because I don’t have to ACT like it doesn’t exist. It really doesn’t exist in my mind. It honestly never occurred to me that men shouldn’t date women 15-20 years younger, and it still seems odd to me that others would find the practice disturbing.

    I suppose I said all that to simply say this, age difference, in my opinion, is to be simply ignored. If you act like it doesn’t exist, it will cease to exist in her mind very quickly.


    • “Maybe I’ve enjoyed success with younger women simply because I don’t have to ACT like it doesn’t exist. It really doesn’t exist in my mind. It honestly never occurred to me that men shouldn’t date women 15-20 years younger, and it still seems odd to me that others would find the practice disturbing.”

      This is the right attitude. A lot of guys have been socially conditioned to worry about age differences so it’s hard for them to shift into this mindset. It’s another reason why PUAs stress going out and getting field experience. The more variety of women/ages/classes/etc you meet, the less that stuff bothers you because you gain enough positive reference experiences to not care.

      I’ve banged women from 17 up to 50 lol age doesn’t mean anything to me and I sometimes do a double-take when a girl is concerned about it because I have to think “oh ya, normal people worry about a 2 year age gap, I forgot”


  44. on August 21, 2012 at 7:26 pm NoloContendre

    I am 50, and have had success practicing the crimson dark arts – as you so refer to them – before they became popularized in your most excellent blog. I’ve pretty much dedicated much of my life to the pursuit of feminine beauty and attention, sadly. Hell and to think I could have been an astronaut.  
    Your most recent post is correct. Direct game will not work on young women. Or, on the most desirable young women at least. The allure of the older man to the young woman – especially in today’s feminized society – is the native masculinity expected to be present in the older man, by the young woman. This should be evidenced by his demonstrated mastery of the world, self-control of his emotions, and an all-knowing bemused grin with the goal of channeling of the young woman’s initial fear and diffidence of him into feelings of desire. To overcome the fear and diffidence, the older man must open his younger prey with conversation that is edgy, but not overtly sexual – at first. The initial topics covered must demonstrate to the young woman his higher value compared to her, but this needn’t be overdone, as she will naturally assume such.
    Overt negs are not necessary when dealing with most younger women, provided your projection is spot on. In fact, they can actually hurt the chances of successful pickup – as these negs can come across as either fatherly-ish rebukes, or as being more hurtful to her psyche than when coming from someone closer to her age.
    The largest problems one runs into as an older man seducing younger woman are 1) keeping the conversation from amplifying the age gap; steering clear of generationally specific topics,  stifling discussion or even acknowledgement of one’s children, and 2) an attention to dress and grooming. Very important…an older man should follow the general rule that the less flesh seen the better, and attention should be paid to procuring quality clothing. A slovenly dressed older man comes off as pathetic.
    I personally believe wingmen are optional, but I’d be interested in other opinions here. I don’t think they hurt, but on the other hand it isn’t as unusual to see an older man alone in the right type of bar, sipping his drink, chatting with the bartender, and surveying his world. Older men are often seen alone and thought of as standing alone, like kings.
    If a bar is to be used as a pickup venue, it helps if you are not the only guy there over 40…otherwise right from the gitgo it looks tryhard.
    While indirect game I believe is the best approach, sexual intentions and interest should be shown early. There should never be communicated any fear or embarrassment for pursuing younger women – it’s much less forgivable for the older man.
    I personally believe that now more than ever – the older man/younger woman pairing works; and probably has never worked better since its prevalence during the settling of the early United States, when it was quite common to see an age gap (particularly with a second wife, the first having died in childbirth) of 15 years or more. Why is this so? Because of the stability and worldly experience represented by the older man. Men can deal with chaos – and some even long for it. Women, though, cannot. The older man represents shelter from the storm of the fast-collapsing West. Here is where we have an advantage over our younger competitors, in that the younger women we pursue are more likely to believe that we can be caught successfully, and harnessed to provide sorely-needed resources, all other things being alpha-equal


    • Excellent advice. +1


    • NoloContendre: “stifling discussion or even acknowledgement of one’s children, ”

      Ha ha! You bet! “You have a son two years older than me ..?? “, doesn’t usually go down too well.


  45. The older I get, the more I prefer indirect game (particularly as defined by YaReally– indirect does NOT mean asexual). It’s mainly based off my desire to give girls shit. Also, I’ve become very wary of pedestalizing women (which never worked for me when I was younger). Early direct game not only pays her ego a tribute before she’s earned it, but it takes the fun of the chase away.


  46. Men seem to look better in their 30s. I am currently “dating” my first 30-year-old, a finance expert. I have never shown so much respect for a man.
    Finding myself acting more typically “feminine” and compliant when he is around. Trust me this is not me. But I feel really great around this guy. And god he looks amazing in his suits.
    I’ve seen pictures of him in his 20s and he looked really childish if not clownish.
    I don’t think I would have dated him then.
    I’m 22 by the way. It seems that older men never hit on me? Or maybe they are going too “indirect” and I can’t tell at all.
    I’ve known men as old as 45 who could’ve had a chance with me if they had only sent some signals that they were interested. But then again they were probably married.

    Suggestion to older men: there are definitely young and attractive women out there who want to date you. Specifically me, so just go for it.
    I’m considering raising my age minimum from 27 to 30 now that I’ve experienced “older” men.


    • Yeah, the high point for women is in their early to mid twenties.

      But for men, it’s usually mid-to late thirties.

      Because that’s when many men start to hit their stride in the world: status, wealth, they become truly dominant as opposed to faking it.

      Also I think the ideal pairing for human beings may be “half a man’s age plus seven years” as the old saying goes.

      Which means “older man-younger woman” is what nature intended.

      No wonder girls love older men.


    • Hey kid, 30 is still a boy and that age difference between you and him is nothing.


      • Only in our spoiled-ass, antiseptic modern SWPL world is 30 still a boy… maturity isn’t always a function of calendar age.


    • I’m 22 by the way. It seems that older men never hit on me?

      Or perhaps you’re not high quality enough for them. Merely being 1/2 their age is no guarantee that they’re interested in you.


    • Finding myself acting more typically “feminine” and compliant when he is around. Trust me this is not me.

      trust us, it is.

      as a girl it is in your very nature, your biological programming, to be feminine and compliant. it’s just that you’ve been socially conditioned to think and act more like a man. thus you believed this to be the real you, but it really isn’t.

      up until now you haven’t met a guy who was able to rescue your xx chromosomes withering from underexposure and bring out the real you.

      welcome to your five minutes of alpha.

      I’m considering raising my age minimum from 27 to 30

      considering? you already shattered that arbitrary 27 year age restriction.

      and your new 30 year age restriction will shatter just as easily.


  47. I’m seventy, and I’ve been married for more years than the women that I’ve seen on the side, by a good amount. Game? They need to know you are willing and able, and discrete and something of an adventure for them. Women above 30 worry they will look desperate or foolish or too easy. Women below 30 worry you will think they are too stupid about the world. So, reassure them a little bit — not too much because they need to be a little uncertain — and they will try hard to overcome their self-perceived inadequacies for some fun. Remember that the age difference means that there is virtually no chance for encounters to turn into LTRs, That operates both as a relief and an excuse for them. Also, I remember that any chance you get may be the last chance you will ever get, as the years roll on.


  48. R.Don Steele elucidated older man game 20 years ago in his timeless classic “How to Date Young Women for Men Over 35, Volumes I and II”. His method relies less on snappy approaches and more on slowly laying the groundwork towards relationships with young women. Also compares and contrasts younger men/older men and why young ladies want an older man and how to cultivate them.

    His website steelballs.com has some intro material.

    No, I am not R.Don Steele.


    • on August 21, 2012 at 8:42 pm Sredny Vashtar


      Steele’s books aren’t too bad, but avoid his seminars: George Sodini was a big fan of his.


    • on August 23, 2012 at 1:04 am manofthetimes

      Don has some excellent insights regarding the mindset of a woman at all age groups and how she perceives an older man. However, most of his stuff is primarily focused on helping beta-types run pickup by recognizing glaringly obvious IOIs. A skilled seducer will want to make his own breaks and deal with the occasional tough blowout rather than protect his ego.


  49. I only date women 26 or younger. I’m 37. I still swear by indirect-direct. I make no secret that I’m hitting on them but I do it initially with my subcommunication and then transition to more overt statements of interest later in the interaction.


    • So with 27 I’m too old for you?! Are you afraid of grown-up, confident women? I mean, there’s no big difference between 26 and 27 … I think I even look better now than I did one year ago. Maybe.
      With 37 you should be interested in women just a few years younger than you are – you can still have kids with women in their thirties, so this shouldn’t be a problem.


      • Oh, sorry. I didn’t realise YOU get to tell ME what I should find attractive.


      • I’m sorry, only now I noticed that I really wrote ‘you should’ … Of course I’m not going to tell you that. I was just expressing my disappointment because even 37 year olds now feel that I’m too old for them.


  50. NoloContendre
    The allure of the older man to the young woman – especially in today’s feminized society – is the native masculinity expected to be present in the older man, by the young woman.

    Yup. In addition, you can OPENLY call bullshit on all aspects of the feminized culture because you have something to compare it to. Ditto with respect to music, movies, art… When I show young girls why there would be no Tina Turner without Ike, its not that they don’t say anything. They say, “wow, I didn’t know that”

    Most importantly, don’t project your experiences from 20 years ago onto todays young girls. They’ve had 20 years of Oprah, “you go girl!”, “empowerment”…. they have all been told its their duty to go to the amusement park and have as much fun as they can.

    You’re just another ride at the amusement park.

    Don’t over think it.

    (matter of fact, some of them want the scary, dangerous ride)


  51. on August 21, 2012 at 9:33 pm immoralgables

    I haven’t seen such insightful and helpful commentary on CH in a long time.

    Makes me think.

    That the 30+ crowd know their shit (based off the numerous coherent comments I just read) and that the less 30- crowd aren’t quite there yet.

    Doesn’t surprise me. Glad I have something to look forward to as odds are my steez will become refined.



  52. Quick tip: if you have salt and pepper greying hair you might want to try Just For Men hair dye. I use it and you can’t tell, although I’m good at it because I’ve been doing it for awhile. I use the right color for me (light brown) and while dying it I keep it in the exact right time, if you don’t do it right your hair will look too dark and dyed. It depends on your hair, try it out. If it looks like shit it’ll just grow out and you’ll be done with it, or you might be a guy who looks good with greying hair.

    It is a pain in the ass to do it but it makes me look 5 to 10 years younger, the difference it dramatic. And since a man is shamed for just about everything he does these days, some people (man or woman) might make fun of you if they find out you use it. Fuck them. If for some reason a girl asks me if I dye my hair, I’m honest and tell them yes. They don’t seem to care.


  53. interesting comments, considering I saw an article today on abovethelaw by a law partner who gets all kinds if names in the comments section because he dared say that younger woman are at their peak attractiveness and together up for a law career at their peril. I can’t imagine that 30plus lawyers are great fun, even for some of you rocking older alphas. But I may be wrong on that.


  54. I’m 53, engaged to a 32 y.o. legit HB8 with a 25 y.o. candidate on the side. Fitness, confidence, and direct game all the way.


  55. Just turned a young looking 51. I can generally same night close a women in her 30s (7 – 8) if I’m seated next to her at the bar. Combination of indirect conversation and playful kino.

    I was a student of Tenmagnet …


  56. I’ve been meaning to write in, since (and I don’t say this lightly) the Chateau (CH and commentaries here) and Athol at MMSL have literally saved me from a messy/painful/costly divorce. I had the blue pill beaten into me by society when I was young. Got married, beta chump, wife (10 years younger), two young kids… blah, blah…. Everybody here knows the drill. Found and took the red pill last year! My marriage, which was weeks away from official failure (divorce papers), is now solid, with me in control.

    My recent experience at a minor league ballpark fits in perfectly with the older man game of this post. I’m 50, with a spare tire. I look about 40, but my hair is gray and I’m “fat.”

    I went to a minor league ballgame last month. My buddy and his family (wife and 2 kids) invited me and my family (wife and 2 kids) to go to a nice afternoon game (perfect weather).

    We went to the game and got the all-you-can eat/drink pass. We went into the sectioned area. I noticed that the two “beer-girls” were pretty hot. They were both about 18, wearing tight t-shirts and shorts. A brunette HB9 and a blonde HB8, obviously “hired guns,” according to PUA lingo. I had no expectations, since my wife was right there and my marriage is solid now, but I still have fun flirting…

    HB9: Can I get you something?
    Me: What have you got?
    HB9: Pabst Blue Ribbon, premium …
    Me: PBR (cutting her off, solid eye contact, slight smirk)
    HB9: Uuuhhhrrr…are you sure….?
    Me: Yep. (It’s not that I prefer PBR, but I haven’t had one for a while, and just wanted it… Plus, it was kind of cute to see her flustered.)
    HB9: [gives me the can…]
    Me: [I leave to join my buddy and our families]

    [My buddy and I leave the table with the wives and kids to go sit at the rail to see the game better.]

    [I go back up to get some food. Chips are gone, brats/dogs are gone.]
    Me: [looking at the empty food containers][smirking with solid eye contact] Geez… when do think you’ll have something I want…
    HB9: [Looking at me quizzically] We should get restocked any minute. We called the kitchen…blah, blah, blah…
    Me: (disappointed sigh) How about a good beer this time…?
    HB9: [pours the beer perfectly] Here you are…
    Me: [just walk away]

    [I go back up to get some food. HB8 is restocking the hotdogs/brats. HB8 holds the packaged hot dog/brat up to the sun to read the writing on the foil, then puts it into the proper warming tray.]

    Me: [smirking at HB8] I’ve never met anybody with x-ray vision before…I’ll take a brat when you see one…
    HB8: [smiles at me. Looks for one and hands it over.]
    Me: See, I knew you could find one…
    HB9: [looks at me quizzically and more than just a little intently.][I smirk at her.]
    Me: [to HB9] I’ll take a beer, too…
    HB9: [gets the beer and pours it in a cup. It foams up, so it is undrinkable.] Ooops, I’m sorry, it’s a little foamy… (That’s right, it was a shit test…)
    Me: [smirking with solid eye contact] That’s alright…you’ll do better next time…

    [From my position at the railing, I turn to look at her. She’s behind the beer stand, there’s no customers and she’s staring intently at me. It’s funny, but I got the feeling that I could actually see the hamster spinning away, furiously. I hold solid eye contact for about 15 seconds, then smirk/slow blink and look back to the game.]

    [I went up to get several more brats or beers over the next hour, or so. Every time I went up, I just got a brat or a beer. No flirty/witty comments, just solid eye contact and a smirk, with minimal conversation. I also made sure that she saw that I was noticing things about her, like her hair, ear rings, nail polish, etc. Not her sexual parts, just other things. No comments, just silent judgment.

    Every brat was handed over a little more nicely than the last, with more “helpfulness” on her part. Every beer pour got just a little bit better. I would watch her pour the beer and silently judge her while she did it. She knew what I was watching for and was trying to get my approval.]

    [I went back to get another beer, and they were out of the premium beer.]
    HB9: Would you like a PBR?
    Me: [Not smiling] No.
    Me: [I looked at her mouth, then smirking with solid eye contact] Do you have anything else I might want?
    HB9: [Staring back at me with her big doe eyes. Her nips popped through her t-shirt as she tried to stare me down. She licked her lips and looked down. I left for the rail as soon as she looked down, and I didn’t look back.]

    [After they restock the beer cooler, I went back up. It was “last call.” Before I even get to the counter, she’s talking…]
    HB9: [seeking my approval] They restocked…blah, blah, blah…[as she poured the beer with extreme care] I’ve got a beer for you…blah, blah, blah… [As she held it out to me, I saw that it was the perfect beer pour. It was literally perfect…no foam, no ‘spilled’ beer on the edge of the rim (the whole rim was dry). It. Was. Perfect.]
    Me: [Taking the beer like it was precious (It was – it represented her best effort) and covering her hand with mine as I took it] [Big happy smirk with solid eye contact] I knew you had it in you…
    HB9: [she had the biggest smile on her face, she was flushed/blushing, touching my hands back, trying to meet my eyes…] Thank you…

    This would have been the time to either number close, or bounce to some venue after she got off work and go direct/escalate kino and push for the f-close at her place… (in other words, direct game)

    This whole exchange took place over about 4-5 hours. It was a fun day at the ball park…

    The post-script of this incident was that my wife tried to be mad at me and shame me for flirting. She saw what was going on, and when we were on the way home, half-heartedly told me that it was disgusting. (I think she got juiced by the pre-selection…) That this girl was young enough to be my daughter, and that I could only date women that were over 30.

    I told her, “no,” that the “beer girl” was almost young enough to be my grand-daughter, and if I had wanted to, I’d be doing her right now… (Have I mentioned that the sex with my wife has been great since I took the red pill!?!..)

    (I think my wife’s comment about “dating” women over 30 was her hamster having some cognitive dissonance between her hind-brain liking the pre-selection effect of a teenage girl responding to me, worrying about future resources for her offspring (if the girl responded “too much” and replaced her), and her indoctrination into modern feminist culture.))

    I have noticed that indirect game will always lead to direct game. It has to. Direct game is the precursor to the f-close. Kino/escalation/body language, etc. is always necessary for a successful close (even with your wife). Just because you do that stuff in public, doesn’t mean you can skip it in private…

    Some analysis…

    Since I took the red pill just under a year ago, I’ve gotten very sensitive to interpersonal dynamics and sexual subtext. What I’ve noticed is that direct and indirect game are not mutually exclusive. They represent different aspects (different parts of the timeline/sequencing) of the same game.

    From what I’ve been able to figure out (and correct me if I’m wrong, I’ve only been “red-pilled” less than a year) hind-brain’s sole function is to actively secure the best possible genetic contribution from a sufficiently genetically superior male (alpha) that is possible within the female’s current environment, given the fact that she ovulates one time per month.

    In other words, hind-brain doesn’t care that the greatest possible alpha male really wants to fertilize her egg, but is 1000 miles away, if the egg is on the way down the plumbing right now. The hind-brain wants to reproduce on this egg and will take the best of the “sufficiently” superior genetics (alpha) from whatever male(s) is(are) available. Age does not matter. Superior genetics as evidenced by an alpha behavior set is all that counts. This sufficiency requirement can be met by emulating alpha behavior because the behavior cues have been bred into the hind-brain’s decision-making set.

    Fore-brain is whatever cultural indoctrination is stuffed into the females head, from wherever. This includes fashion, education, ASD, feminism, age differences, religion, etc.

    The hamster is the hind-brain’s minion. Designed to allow the hind-brain to get those superior genetics – first, by shit-testing to weed out inferior samples, and second, by being slutty when necessary to get the sample, and to do it without having the female’s head explode from cognitive dissonance in her fore-brain.

    The hamster interfaces with the fore-brain’s values to get what the hind-brain wants – an egg fertilized by superior genetics. This leads to the “chick logic” that we all love.

    Direct game seems to be focused on talking directly to the hind-brain (through kino, body language, assertiveness, DHVs, etc.) – showing the hind-brain that the PUA has those superior genetics, by hitting all the proper behavior cues, while giving the hind-brain’s minion, the hamster, no reason to have to work too hard to avoid blowing out the “donor,” by virtue of the PUA violating a fore-brain value in the target. Direct game needs to have and keep hind-brain/fore-brain congruence in the target or the PUA will get blown out.

    Indirect game, on the other hand, seems to be focused on hitting all the proper behavior cues to indirectly attract the hind-brain’s attention from any receptive female in the interaction/environment. I’ve read that it is like putting out a “vibe,” and letting that do the work… However, at some point you have to go direct game to get to a close.

    An analogy will help here. It’s like in golf. The saying is “drive for show, putt for dough.” The “short game” (inside 100 yards) is the most important skill set for a good golfer, because it is always used, prior to the “close.” The more skillful the short game, the better the player, and the more fun the game is… Indirect game gets you close (driver/irons) and Direct game (wedges/putter) is always used prior to the close…

    Notice two things from my baseball game outing. One, I did nothing to put HB9 in the position of having to make a yes/no choice up front. I was just having fun. I had no skin in the game. I got her hamster to spin on behalf of her hind-brain. Two, even though I was also interacting with HB8, she didn’t have her interest piqued at all. I was demonstrating all the same behaviors with her – direct eye contact, judging, etc. It just didn’t “take” with her.

    I think the problem with calling it direct game or indirect game is that the hind-brain still needs time to evaluate the genetic donor’s potential and enough time to let the hamster ‘adjust’ all the fore-brain’s values enough to get those genetics to the egg. I think I read somewhere about 7 hours of contact time being the threshold…

    If that’s true, then the implications are that indirect game and direct game are just different sequences of the whole process. It seems that direct game involves first showing sexual interest in a target, then proceeding to interact with the target for a certain amount of time (>7 hours) in a way that allows the target’s hind-brain to have confidence in the superiority of your genetic contribution (ie maintaining congruence), while allowing the hamster enough time to make the necessary adjustment to the fore-brain to get the genetic contribution done.

    Similarly, indirect game involves first allowing the target’s hind-brain to have confidence in the superiority of your genetic contribution through interaction for a certain amount of time, then proceeding to show sexual interest in the target in a way that allows the target’s hind-brain to continue to have confidence in the superiority of your genetic contribution (ie maintaining congruence) (for a total of >7 hours), while allowing the hamster enough time to make the necessary adjustment to the fore-brain to get the genetic contribution done.

    The only difference seems to be that with direct game your alpha behavior is directed at the target first and always, and with indirect game your alpha behavior is thrown out into the world, which includes the target, and then becomes focused on the target.

    I hope that makes sense and helps out somebody…


  57. on August 22, 2012 at 1:01 am LongLostFriend

    I co-sign on the fitness. If you look worn out and tired, kiss any shot at a younger woman goodbye.

    Also, I support the indirect approach, with the right frame. There are 22-year-olds who balk at the thought of a 27-year-old man (they often still refer to themselves as “girls.”) Just write them off. They love the word “creepy” too much to be of any use to you.

    Then there are those who are consciously and overtly drawn to older men. This is where you will find your “daddy issues,” and if you want to capitalize on that, more power to you.

    The third category is the most fun, IMO. These are the ones who have never considered dating an older guy one way or the other. Put that confidence on display, don’t allow yourself to be neutered in her mind, don’t even refer to the age difference, and let her warm up to the idea of an older man as you gradually move from indirect to direct.

    Framing yourself as simultaneously “mature/charming” and “masculine/virile” is key.


  58. “Generation skipping game” happens when a fit 50 ish guy manages to totally impresses a gang of 20 something guys by pulling off things of transcendent coolness like winning a hovercraft race in Stockholm with his own design after air-frieghting over his whole team.Likely as not, they will rave to their age-mate girls – largely unaware of the for -real tingling inspired by their second hand stories ‘ Because that dude is too odd, doncha know.”
    What the girls hear is “Too old? He is winning races in an exotic motor sport that the BBCs TopGear is going gaga about.” I wanna meet him!!!
    Really meet. him.
    Yeah, generation skipping game Turn young men into your worshippers and the door for poon-plundering is wide open.


    • It’s easier than that. What you just described would work but sounds like a lot of trouble for little marginal gain. In fact, guys like that will often just inadvertently help their male followers get laid because they, themselves, were too busy organizing that hovercraft race.

      In other words, that and a solid frame of entitlement would get him laid.


      • Obviously we all can’t be hovercraft racers. But I think he has a valid point: get younger men to admire you and the women will trail in their wake.


    • Women love a winner, true… but if her gaggle of friends (men or women) start the “too old” mantra, well… an incarnate hamster may be a loner as a pet, but THE hamster is a pack animal.


  59. Man, old guy game. What an idea. I guess I might need it one day if I want to live my life how I want. I want to have kids but still bang cute young girls forever. My uncle is almost 60, spent his life as a truck driver and bouncer and biker, fat, mows lawns to make money nowadays. He just had a kid with a 22 year old I went to school with after spending a couple year mooching off a 30 something who kicked her husband out so he could move in, and he has five fully grown kids already. Fuck that. Its inspiring like a crack baby becoming President: clearly its possible, but I dont have any clue how.


  60. Does he really have anything better to do than post provocative items about subjects he hasn’t put to the test, and then deleting comments that utterly disagree with him?

    This is his new target: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/08/17/your-second-thought-for-the-day/


  61. Womanizers, help me out here!

    Ongoing convo i’m having with a chick (dating website):

    Me:I should spank you 😡
    Her: I would just eat your plants if you did that.
    Me:If you touch my spearmint plant, i’ll leave bruises.
    Her:hand shaped bruises?

    What say I next?


  62. on August 22, 2012 at 4:52 am Days of Broken Arrows

    Does anyone else miss the old Yahoo messenger, where you could meet women without having to disclose your age? It seemed back then there were a lot of really young girls who didn’t care about age.

    That “scene” now seems to have transformed into the OKCupid realm, where you’re forced to disclose your age — and women have to put an age bracket they prefer. Kind of ruins the whole thing.


    • Forced? As in mailing in your driver’s license or they are like that True.com dating site that I thought crashed and burned from lack of interest?

      Match.com briefly had a policy ten years ago where they made it impossible for anyone to change their birthdate after first entering it. Sales dropped off precipitously because the bread and butter users were and are, drum roll please, older people trying to stay relevant.

      They changed their policy fast.


  63. A website on cuckoldry advises that in order to convince a reluctant partner to cuckold you, you should be beta towards her.

    “The key to helping your lover see you as a cuckold and not as the alpha male that she married is to become so subservient to her that sexually you become boring.

    Some of those ways include:

    Waiting on her hand and foot
    Instead of being the alpha male, let her take the lead
    Be overly romantic”

    @ http://infoportal.hubpages.com/hub/The-Joy-of-Cuckolding


  64. Study from 1996 found that 37% of early twenties women who went to Spain for two weeks, away from their partners in the UK, cheated.

    The google books version summarises the study.


    This is the link to the study but it doesn’t make reference to the specific study in the abstract and it is paygated.


    If this doesn’t provide a reason not to have long-term relationships with women I don’t know what does. As long as there is no societal/criminal punishment for women’s cuckoldry men should pump and dump all the way as there’s no disincentive to stop them from doing it.


    • “as there’s no disincentive to stop them from doing it.”

      That is, men should just pump and dump all the way as there’s no disincentive from women cuckolding them or put another way there’s no disincentive from women reproductively exploiting those men who pursue long-term relationships with them.


    • Now did we REALLY need a study to “prove” this? And to whom are we proving this well-known phenomenon of the Irish-American girl going off to Madrid to study suck some Montenegran migrant’s cock at an abandoned construction site after a few hits of E? the girl? the Montenegran? each other?


  65. Perhaps one way to conceptualise why women don’t like emotional/sensitive guys would be to consider this.

    Men value women for their sexual intimacy, while women value men for the emotional intimacy.

    Now men don’t want a relationship with a woman who is promiscuous with her sexual intimacy as it either indicates she has low value, or potential for cuckoldry.

    Perhaps women don’t want relationships with emotional/sensitive guys as these men are promiscuous with their emotional intimacy. And their emotional promiscuity indicates they are either low value or have a potential for abandonment.

    So a niceguy is to women, what a slut is to a man.

    Now, when you here feminist therapists telling men they they should be more sensitive and get in touch with their feminine side and what not, those therapists are no different from some old sleazy lecher trying to convince women that it’s in their best interest to sleep around and experiment with their sexuality in the hopes that the woman will sleep with them.

    Basically, telling men to be more sensitive is a ploy to make it easier for women to use men, just as telling women to be more sexually open would be a ploy to make it easier for men to use women.


    • Chris, that’s a terrific contribution; impressively well articulated. Thank you.


    • Interesting.

      But physical promiscuity carries with it real-world disasters, from disease to emotional brittleness, to raising the spawn of other men… so it’s quite understandable that that would be a deal-breaker for men in how they view women… and perhaps even a little vice versa, given this Age of STD.

      But I don’t see how it would harm women to have a man that was “nice” to everyone, including other women… the only downside is that maybe it doesn’t deeply satisfy an individual woman’s desire to be that special unique snowflake if her man is sensitive to the feelings of other women as well… but that’s no rational or moral reason to view said man as the equivalent of a slut.

      Then again, who said rationality or morality were cornerstones of the female mind.


      • @Greg Eliot See the link here to The Treatise of Love. In feral state of evolutionary selection, women needed resources and protection from men since childhood is so long. They gave sex (likely lower fertility orgasms) for resources instinctively. The love feeling was her assurance another woman would not get those resources. Men fight. Women use, and she wants monopoly over as many guys as possible for gene pool selection and resource aquisition, in her instincts, just like men want as many gals as possible for sex. chris just wrote a blog article.


      • No argument on why women give sex for resources (DUH!)…

        But the flaw in the premise is that, if exclusivity is what the woman wanted (and why she didn’t want “a nice guy, open to the emotional needs of all women”), she would have grown to hate the alpha and love the beta…

        As we know, then and now, the opposite is true.

        (because in the case of the alpha, he gives his actual physicality to as many other women as possible, hence ALSO resources when other spawn are produced… not merely the “emotional shoulder” of the beta).


      • Greg, perhaps this is where we must agreeable disagree. It is one thing to father other children, and another to supply them. I think a woman instinctively wants exclusive rights and even control over each man and that leads to hypergamy (obviously I know). She is happier if she fails the control part, but she has to constantly be sure he is more powerful. I did not say she instinctively wanted to be exclusive back. Her tendency is to ‘consume’ the man and move on if he is too nice to her or to others and loses dominance and resource access. Sperm is cheap and why would she care about that? His feelings are expensive unless he can be turned beta.

        Women are NOT realistic, and I wonder if you are supposing a woman is realistic enough to be societally stable. She is not. Her love of other children is nothing to her love of her own. Pack animals constantly recalibrate. Women were not put under as much evolutionary pressure to be rational (required in society). Women are generally incompetent at politics. Society has government and politics. Packs have a dominance heirarchy and no accumulated wealth. Game is played as selfish pack animals.

        A Beta is so nice that his chances at resources in the wild are slim. The womanizing Alpha gets resources (including women) by definition, and he is there to be exploited maximally. Women need to be put into their respective places to be societally acceptable and most happy. It’s battle of the sexes for a reason. Pack recalibration. Genes vs. genes.

        She ‘hates’ that she can’t monopolize the alpha. She ‘hates’ the (civilized) beta for letting her and other users exhaust him, but that is good feral natural selection. But then we attribute too much to a woman’s hate. If women don’t truly love, maybe they don’t truly hate either. They have more primitive minds, more primitive social constructs, and little or no ability to use empathy to disconnect and see intrinsic worth in others. They are empathy resonators and feelings manipulators with an agenda. If I don’t get what your point is, sorry. I just don’t.


      • I see what you’re saying, but my initial ‘confusion’ is with the original post’s:

        Perhaps women don’t want relationships with emotional/sensitive guys as these men are promiscuous with their emotional intimacy. And their emotional promiscuity indicates they are either low value or have a potential for abandonment.

        So a niceguy is to women, what a slut is to a man.

        Because if an alpha isn’t going to give them an emotional bond (he’s banging other gals, after all), and an exclusive emotion bond is what women want (according to the OP), then you’d think she’d not hate the beta because she’s at least getting SOME emotional bond from him, even if he is a sympathetic shoulder to other women as well. Also, who’s to say the beta will be sharing actual survival resources with other women? Odds are, he’ll have a heavy case of oneitis in that regard, all in return for the occasional nookie. If all he’s sharing is his “niceness”, I don’t see the connections between how men view physical sluts and women view “nice guys”.

        Anyway, as I initially said, it’s an interesting premise.


      • [Reality Doug] beeg genius. He design your mind.

        — Paraphrased Doomed Scientist from Blade Runner


    • Men value women for their sexual intimacy, while women value men for the emotional intimacy.

      And this is absolutely key to older guy game. Women crave emotional intimacy just as men crave physical intimacysex. As an older guy (I’m in my early fifties, which judging from the comments is on the high side of older) you can offer the intimacy and stability she craves along with adventure and excitement. But (as the OP says later) don’t offer emotional intimacy early or easily. Make it clear that a relationship with you emotional intimacy must be earned, and that great rewards are reaped by those who work to do so.


    • Doesn’t make sense. I fuck as many sluts as I can. Do women fuck as many nice guys as they can?


      • You are confusing the male value system which isn’t sex. Its how much trouble you are willing to go through to get sex. That you fuck as many as you can implies very strongly you invest very little.

        Women are often very pleasant towards genuine nice guys and will gladly spend a few moments on their emotional needs which is about the same 5 minutes you spent with a slut. Value needs to be computed in the native currency of the male sex in which case sperm costs pennies. In the native currency of the female, a hug is worth a kopeck and they spend them on betas all the time.


      • Damn, I’d rather get the sex. Empathy is cheap.


      • Not from alpha men.


      • That being why women try harder for their scarce validation, like Captain Ahab’s “one wee teardrop” into the ocean.

        If chris’ comment points to anything, it’s that alphas raise the cost of emotional validation by artificial scarcity, as women raise the costs of sex.


      • Spot on… which is why I’d think that the emotional validation they get from betas in return for the few crumbs of sex would make them (the betas) the sexual equivalent of ‘useful idiots’ (and not the anathema of how men view ‘sluts’)… especially when a few life-sustaining resources are thrown into the bargain.


    • Comment of the week.


    • @chris Fucking brilliant! That is elegantly exact, explaining the female’s mental mechanics on nice guys. Pristine truth resonates. If I heard that when I was young, I might have figured things out then. Damn, that was good.


    • chris, this is one of the best comments i’ve ever read on this blog.


    • Definitively true as far as the exhortations to be sensitive and so on; this is, speaking biologically, the human female imposing a weaponized routine in pursuit of her mating strategy — weeding out subservient but useful males as she waits and waits for the dominant one.

      However, convincing women to be more sexually open was done by those same feminists. Why? But for this we must divert to ethnic strategy …


  66. Rcently met an 18 year old in a bar. Talked to her for about ten or fifteen minutes and got some good iois. Lots of touching on her part etc. she sheepishly tells me that she is only 18 and is there w fake id. I made some comment about owning things older than her , but that she was doing ok in talking to adults. At this point she is literally pushing her body against me. We’re standing at the bar and i close my tab. They give me my receipt along w my id and card. She grabs my id and makes a weird face, then comments on how much older than her i am. 33 btw. Not even a chance to mock her comment before she disappears into the crowd. Ghey.


    • Mistake to let that ID get into her hands. Lesson for next time.

      However, this blog needs to help promote a mass main street effort, led by Baby Boomer males with the help of all forward thinking younger males, to stop the ridiculous American idea that even 33 is too old for 18.

      Don’t let any younger woman get away with bringing up the subject that you’re too old for them without discussing the concept of who will age faster. It’s not as if you have much to lose when they are definitely going to walk because of their warped conditioning.


      • At least the guy who comes after you won’t see the scrunched up face. She’ll know it should be as socially unacceptable for a girl to rudely tell a man he’s too old as it would be for a man to laugh off an older woman by telling her to her face that she’s too old. Women not raised in a cultural barn will recognize the man had the right to try and she’ll be tactful.


      • on August 22, 2012 at 2:57 pm Days of Broken Arrows

        I’m pretty sure it was feminists who led the idea that 33 is too old for 18. When I was a Gen X-er just starting in the workforce, the Baby Boomer men with money and status at my company had no problem at all tapping women that were even younger than me. IMO it’s the feminist bullshit about “power dynamics” that made women in the USA think their mates had to be the same age.


      • And a lot of young American women were taught to explicitly chastize older men for trying to get with them, practically taunt them with approbrium and disgust, while it became completely un-pc for a young or old man to directly tell a woman that she was too old. A healthy society would have the opposite dynamic.


      • I’m absolutely sure every backward idea believed by women is directly attributable to feminist interference.

        – 30 is too old
        – white men are violent predators / “ax murderers”
        – abortion is sacred / embryos are not life
        – protection is oppression
        – sexual liberation is without long-term consequences
        – whites oppress blacks
        – white men are to blame for the woes and hurt feelings of everything that goes on two legs and isn’t white or male
        – feelings matter more than biology
        – wimminz are unknowable mysteries
        – 18 year old women are “little girls”
        – but 15 year old girls should be allowed to philander and forced to take birth control pilzz
        – and allowed to parade their oh-so-sweet budding assets before mankind at carwashes, shopping malls, and on the way home from public zoo
        – that men “want” strong bitchy, successful diversity hire cunts

        etc. etc.


    • WTF frame is that? Is it just me or is that desperate vibe? See the glass half full for pressing against an 18 yo. Rejection from one she-child after some fun is what? Do you feel worse from the 18 yos that rejects so early nothing even starts? You got a kind nibble. Fish, evaluate, refine.

      I don’t like the pure target mindset–desperate. I prefer ‘semi-direct’ (essentially the not asexual approach of @YaReally?), meaning I vibe getting things I want from whatever sources, too many sources to keep track. Then qualify as you escalate a 3-set, whatever, see what bites, and have fun exploring the possibilities instead of measuring against an ideal outcome that kills vibe that women sense whether they want to or not. She could have been psycho and later cried rape for all you know. I have learned to trust the absolute unavailabililty of women.


  67. Question.

    What if you are a 40 something guy who passes for 28 to 32 on a regular basis. I am not talking about my own assessment, but just what people say when they are asked to guess my age.

    Do you tell a 20 year old your real age? Or do you just let her assume that you are 28 and not broach the age conversation at all.

    I feel like I am cheating because when a girl see me, she doesn’t think, “oh 40 something year old guy”. Do I come clean or let things fall where they may?


    • Always lie. You’re not going to marry it, so why the fuck would you act honorably toward it?

      Better still — let her think what she thinks, then let the truth out in pillow-talk. I’ve done this and it can be made to work. She’s shocked and offended at the deception, but the deed having been done, investment made, she quickly comes to terms and might even be turned on.


  68. Some great comments here. I second some observations — such as,

    So much what’s posted online about game presumes to deal exclusively with guys under 35 or so, but doesn’t say so; presuming consensus on this presumption; revealing immaturity/ignorance (by those who do this), and reducing the value of what’s presented (material based on unstated presumptions which are not shared by everyone in the discussion).

    Also, like other guys said,
    It’s better to go indirect and just enjoy the moment for itself (as if that’s all she’s good for to you) — playful, detached from outcome. Convey that you doubt she has enough experience to play on your level well enough to interest you past this moment.
    ‘I doubt she’s worth the trouble beyond this talk right now’ is the attitude to have,
    and let it be politely apparent to her. Let her be eager to gain your respect.
    Delay validating her ego (be very slow to show her ‘I know I want you’).
    Value your self-possession and your dignity.

    For me, game is sometimes like fishing: Go where you might find the fish you want and the fish who might go for the bait you have. Put yourself in a situation where many women get a chance to see you (to ‘size you up’).
    See who responds to your ‘bait’.

    But whether I go looking for women or I’m just out & about, going about my business, it’s the same MO:
    Be alert to IOI. Start with eye contact, see if she reciprocates the IOI. Then it’s smile and see if she reciprocates. Then it’s hello, etc. You start by escalating in small steps of reciprocated IOI, like a game of echoing.

    The point is, start by screening out the (potentially desirable) women who show you they are not receptive to you at all. Don’t waste your time, energy, dignity, etc. on these obviously hopeless ones. Look for the attractive women who show you they might be receptive to you, then proceed with escalating IOIs.

    Finding the younger women who don’t object to your age is like finding the desirable women who don’t object to your lack of wealth or CEO status. Some will go for you, some won’t. Their reasons for their criteria don’t matter to you. You just keep meeting women until you find hot women who give you IOIs.
    Meanwhile of course you do what you can to be desirable to women, such as stay fit & trim, dress okay (ie, not badly), keep developing your game skills/knowledge, etc.

    Ageism (women thinking there’s a law restricting you to dating women within 5 years of your age) seems more common in LA (I lived there many years) than here in the DC area, where I’m getting IOIs from hot women up to 30 years younger than I am.
    Online dating pursuit (older men for younger women) is crippled by the upfront demand to know your age (and a common rigid narrow-mindedness about age).
    It’s so common (and stupid) for women to post they want a guy only within some particular 7 year age range (while she bemoans her difficulty finding a guy who excites her).

    To me, ageism is almost as stupid & pathetic as racism
    (‘Oh, I know if you have trait A, then you also have traits X, Y, & Z’).
    Women presuming ‘ALL guys over 40 are tired, flabby, boring, etc.’
    is about as dumb as women presuming
    ‘All guys under 30 are energetic, exciting, with a great body’.
    Sometimes I too stumble a bit with social brainwashing about age.
    I have to remind myself ‘Not every adult over 35 is truly mature, not all women under 25 are immature & boring (in conversation), and some women over 40 can be HOT.’

    My last FB (a hot Scorpio sex bomb) was 17 years younger than I am.
    My last ‘relationship’ woman was 47 with a killer bod better than most women of any age. But just finding these women in the first place took lots & lots of searching (because I lack patience with going out on the prowl for women).


    • Its my impression that awaiting IOI’s is not part of game. If you see a woman who interests you approach, regardless of whether you’ve had an IOI. A woman’s actual interest in you can only occurr through interaction. A quick glance isn’t likely telling enough.


  69. I’ve met and banged a 26 year old this year. I’m 46. I DHV’d her and she came onto me. I really didn’t care much. She loved being teased. I think it was the confidence and the not giving a shit. Also for some girls, they like the maturity and the playfullness.

    The new ones I’m gaming are in their late 20’s. I usually flirt and do cocky-funny. Then I propose drinks. There’s nothing in that approach that suggest old guy.

    Also I’m in shape, tall and have started honing my game to the point where my confidence and ability to parry shit tests sets me apart from other much younger betas.


  70. Remember, society wants to tell men that they’re the ones who will end up unloved and alone in the nursing home if they don’t settle down. Yet, the single men in the nursing home are living the life viagra just fine. Or to put it another way, sure sure, I could date chicks my own age at any point in my life, I won’t do so until I am forced to (the home).


  71. I am reminded of Jwoww and her much older boyfriend. Sad to say, if you’re not Clooney, then maybe you need to spice it up a little, get those biceps bulging, get a tatoo, or whatever to peacock it up a little. Jersey Shore game is obviously different than DC dating game (and of course, who would ever choose the hotter chicks from Jersey? They don’t even go to the right colleges, like yuck) and in which case, you may want to rent Crazy Stupid Love to learn how to up upgrade from dad khakis, eh, to the SWPL version of biceps and tribal tats. And going by zero knowledge, I’d say you’d have to build comfort before doing anything useful.


    • remember, there’s a website called “hot chicks with douchebags” not “lawyer cunts with douchebags” for a reason.


  72. on August 22, 2012 at 2:26 pm Oldest member

    This is right up my street.
    I don’t know what you mean by older men, but when I say older than the girl, I mean way older. When I retired a couple of years ago after a life of wage slavery, I noticed almost immediately great interest from girls of all ages. I was a bit surprised by the growing interest from girls way, way younger than me. You, dear readers, understand that the subconscious of the girls reported to their hamster that here we have a free man who don’t give a shit. Women are animals that can pick subtle clues as to the value of the male.
    Perhaps you won’t believe me, but young girls even try to pick me up. And if they handle their cards right they may even succeed.
    If you are older, whatever that means, have no fear. All rules of game applies to you as well.
    My current girlfriend is 22 and very anxious that I will tire of her. It’s funny to see girls of her own age trying to cockblock me at the same time as they are trying to make me interested in them.
    But the best thing of having a girlfriend obviously much younger than you is the hatred in the eyes of bitches 30 years and up. It’s a wonderful feeling to know that they hate you and can do nothing about it.
    Whether you believe what I have said or not, let me say this: if you are reasonably in shape (if not, fix it) all that matters is attitude, attitude and more attitude. Did I mention attitude? Don’t get hung up on age. I have seen guys 80 years old having girlfriends 50 years younger, and these were not rich guys, they just sent out a vibe that made the tingle machine work at max capacity.
    Almost forgot, don’t try to dress too young. I have noticed that when I wear a nice suit and tie there is frothing about the lips of the bitches in heat.


    • You are quite correct in the dynamics that take place when dating younger women, with the other women in their social/age grouping. More than a few times after the initial several weeks of fun and frolicking the women will start to get pressure from their “girl-friends” for “dating a man old enough to be your father”. And I’ve had some who are unable to handle it. Of course, then the fun starts because the ones who were most against it, will start making their interest known. Of course, they want to keep it on the down-low – something I nix immediately since “I have more than enough women who want to be seen with me to waste my time on you”. That tends to make them want you more. (Women are so predictable.)

      Of course, once it comes out that I’m now with the one who was the biggest detractor, the claws come out and that is when the one-up-man-ship starts. I have seen this a lot more over the last few years – of course, the fact that many of the younger women, never had a “father” growing up helps more than anything. One of the women I’m presently seeing turned 18 only a short time ago, and her social group is doing that to her at the moment. Of course, the fact that she grew up without a father, has trumped all of the negativity she’s getting and she”ll actively tell them, “you’re just jealous that I found him and you didn’t”.

      I couldn’t agree with you more about “attitude.” It is what is meant by “being comfortable in your own skin”. And it IS the most important thing when it comes to interacting with women.


      • I’m OK with them not wanting to do the public thing, because that puts 100% of the dates at my place. I have several college age girlfriends who wouldn’t be seen with me in public but do whatever I want in private. Plus they wash the dishes and clean the kitchen after they cook for me.


  73. greater than 21: Direct
    less than 21: Indirect


  74. “The clear bra strap look is not attractive, ladies. If your boobs sag, it’s time to give up on strapless dresses.”

    The lack of knowledge on the use of proper undergarments in the young is apalling. A strapless bra, or, if necessary, strapless and backless, is all that is needed to solve this simple problem 🙂


    • I found out that another good solution is to get as fit and skinny as possible. My breasts became quite firm again … And I was already depressed that nobody will ever be able to settle for my sagging breasts.


      • “My breasts became quite firm again”



      • Hope you’re not joking? Now everyone is making fun of me on this blog … so I can’t be sure about you … In case you’re being serious, I can assure you that losing more weight and enough physical activity will make your breasts firmer. It’s best to have a BMI of about 18 (depending on how tiny your bones are). I know some people believe this is borderline anorexia but being relatively very skinny makes you feel so much better. I’m not starving of course, that would be very unhealthy.


      • Like a good bra, I’m merely being supportive. Certain gym equipment/kinds of lifting can help too. Ask a trainer.

        Bras before alphas.


    • Look at the comments. Our kind is nowhere to be seen. PUAs don’t like to leave comments to counteract the manginas. The traditional American “Eeeww” word is used many times. It’s one of the most misandrists words in the modern english vocabulary.


  75. “Your comment is awaiting moderation”…. and the moderator is … on vacation …


  76. Off-topic, but… Manosphere beware, if you royally offend some left/libtards and/or femimnazis with healthy male and/or conservative viewpoints, prepare to have them call the authorities all “concerned” you’re a danger to yourself/others… first, it was SWATing; now, it’s Psycho Attacks (and left/liberal psychology people like to find conservatives crazy):


  77. “Akin is wrong. A woman’s chance of getting pregnant from rape is higher than from consensual sex. Feminists confused. bit.ly/k7JoZr 4 hours ago”

    Yeah, because women orgasm during rape more frequently and even have rape induced-ovulation.

    [heartiste: why don’t you read the study that was linked before attempting a slash-and-burn troll campaign in the comments?]


    • Because I hoped you’ll start talking to me again. It makes me sooo happy. No matter what you say, just seeing your black bold comment makes me feel fuzzy.


  78. on August 22, 2012 at 4:24 pm BornAgainAlpha

    I’m 46 and regularly date hot girls who are in their early 20s. I believe key success factors in order of importance are: 1. I regularly date hot girls in their early 20s (preselection is way more important in these situations) 2. use direct game to confidently channel your intentions 3. have confidence 4. be non-judgmental about their choices 5. be successful 6. be fit

    Nothing makes you more attractive to women (even older women) than dating a much younger woman. Contrary to some of the views expressed here older women do not get upset when older men date much younger women.

    [heartiste: the losers do. and remember, in women, arousal and distress are not mutually exclusive.]

    There are no older women whose hamsters can’t convince them that they can compete. Older women will only get upset if you tell them that you only date younger women or if you tell them they are too old.

    Non-judgmental aloofness is also very helpful with much younger women. They want acceptance from older successful men particularly if they have daddy issues.


    • They want acceptance from older successful men particularly if they have daddy issues.

      You couldn’t be more wrong and you’re just mimicking what the other middle aged omegas are spouting. It is the females who have had good relations with their fathers and love their fathers who will go with older men. They feel comfortable around men their father’s age.


  79. I practice ‘Attention Game’.

    I refuse to give the women any attention. Not even eye contact. I ignore women/girls completely. Then sit back and watch the melt down. The reactions by females at the grocery store, for example, as I push my cart by them not even acknowledging their existence, are especially hilarious. Shock and dismay on their part. Like they’ve grown up expecting, and have come to rely upon, every guy checking them out.

    There is definitely some sort of energy vibe that woman/girls feed off. Like sexual vampires they need to be continuously replenished with the psychic energy (attention) of men. Or it’s like they start starving to death or something. Get desperate.

    Anyone else ever noticed that?


    • Non-attention game… why, that’s just crazy enough to work!

      In a woman’s prison…

      With a pocketful of pardons.

      /just havin’ a little fun with ya, bro!


    • Yeah, because I’m sure they’re panting over your ectosmurf body and good looks lol


  80. If you are the old guy in the college club the “easy lay-up” opener for any girl, no matter how attractive, is to ask her questions about the club; as if its your first time there.

    The older guy can always pull that off.

    You can segway from there into asking about them, or talking about yourself; or better yet, asking them to dance if you get the DJ to play some better music (go ahead fellas, you can use that one, just don’t play no Rick James, thats my tune for grindin)

    I admit not understanding this thing about rude or mean girls acting annoyed or angry when you approach them, especially to a total stranger; that must be direct game?

    The only direct game I use is the direct NEG because when its a good one, they can’t get mad, they hafta laugh cause its so good.

    Yes, this is “indirect game”, but just talking to girls means you are halfway there, because no matter what she says,

    I guarrentee at least one other girl is watching you do it.

    Tally HO gentlemen.


  81. Okay… Having stopped “pushing 50” and having hit the big Five-Oh, and thinking back over the years I have to say that I have seldom dated women close to my age. When I was younger (teens and 20’s) I tended toward women in their early 40’s and late-30’s mostly because they were easier and less hassle since they weren’t chomping at the bit to get married, and to a certain extent they really were easier for me… I wasn’t interested in younger women as they tended to be more of a hassle. So I was regularly banging women 10-20+ years older than me, and loving every second of it.

    In my late 20’s and early 30’s I shifted over to targeting early 20’s and have pretty much been in that age group (18-25) ever since. I never really thought of how things have evolved over the years since the way I interact with them, and particularly where has changed due the progression of my life and career. In my 30’s clubs were easy, but being in college (grad-school) meant that women in that age grouping were every-where and I met them naturally in everything I did. I did find that they took more work than the ones I was normally dealing with, but due to proximity it was a target rich environment. I did find that younger women tended to be more screwed in the head – but that was fine, they had compensating advantages.

    In my 40’s things changed a bit (shaved my head long ago, so never really had “age related” hints) – I tended to give women more of a hard time, making them work for everything. One thing I can say is that over the years I have become very adept at reading body-language as well as other clues, so it’s fairly easy for me to gauge how I’m being received – it’s a skill that is useful in business and personal life. So I would regularly call “bull-sh*t”on women and tell them when they were full of it – generally being abrasive and saying things like, “Right now you think opening your mouth and putting a dick in it makes you special – till you know what you’re doing, you aren’t. You’re just a little girl who thinks she knows more than she really does. Of course little boys don’t know the difference.” Now that would be called “busting her chops” and I did it regularly. Still do. But I have come to see that you need a target-rich environment with more women than men, with yourself preferably at the peak in the hierarchy. Now that is easy in a company – but you don’t want to target those women since it’s a good way to lose your shirt. But having women speck well of you, is always a plus..

    So, I’ve taken to directing/producing in community theater, as well as performing in a specialty entertainment group that regularly performs at places like ski-resorts and such in the winter, and beach resorts during the summer… While, I’m not obviously in charge, I am one of a few men facing the audience with lots of women seeking my attention – always a good thing. But, in retrospect, throughout my life I have taken active steps to create target-rich environments where things are in my favor. Take that and factor in being able to see attraction due to body-language, and being able to walk away because there are always some up-and-comers and it’s pretty much a recipe for fun throughout life.

    It wasn’t till a few years ago that I even became aware of such things as “Game” and the like, but I could see that many of the things, I did throughout life due to simple observation of what worked and what didn’t – fell into that category. So I can’t say if I am more “direct” or “indirect” these days since I have no script and do what comes naturally, and never really care if I go home with her or not, since I can always call someone. I’ve tended to collect more women than I can see comfortably anyway – so I’m probably not in your target audience since I do whatever works – without ever being “creepy” or the like, primarily because I’m in an environment when the women tend to approach me and want my attention, more than my doing it. Although I’ve met women in gas stations, libraries, and in pretty much everything I do.


  82. That’s what the women are always gushing over… the MSM is even reporting it about Ryan, fer cryin’ out loud, in re the womens vote..


    • “Cute” is a relative term… Donnie Osmond or George Clooney or Humphrey Bogart?

      Anyway, your contention was that women focus on the mouth and jaw (bottom-third).

      I’m sure there are “studies” somewhere to be found on the internet to corroborate all manners of “what women look for/at”.

      But all I ever hear about is eyes, from the innumerable media outlets common parlance (the aforementioned popular express)… as well as from the ladies in my life.


    • Check that, you said “lower two thirds”, so I guess I should say, cheeks, mouth, and jaw.


  83. OT: A friend told me about this today. Despite how this article portrays it, I think its a good idea (as long as the girls aren’t on birth control).



  84. Obviously, the guys over at National Review are reading your site:


    I’m serious – there’s absolutely no way the guy who wrote that article is not a regular reader of the Chateau.


  85. Am honestly considering growing the beard out again….


  86. It will help you step over spit and duck flying snot though.


  87. I hung out with the the Indigo Girls before they got on TV. They are two far gone lesbians from Athens Georgia who play their own kind of music The thing is, when they/we were deep into a song., all that stuff sort of went away. The word “ecstasy” has been polluted by its association with a silly drug. But there is a reason that I remain an optimist and it has to do with that. I mean, there is a place beyond the hopeless dys-connection of the genders and a good way to get there is … music; shared.
    I do not know what K.T. Tunstall fucks when she is in the mood. But listen to/watch her do her cover of. Dylans “Tangled Up in Blue”.
    Something about is just true and right and redemptive.


  88. FWIW, USA Today had an article promoting the new film, utterly forgettable, done by Dax Shepherd and Kristin Bell. Shepherd is 5 years her senior, had as he pointed out a “Scumbaggy” reputation (his words), Bell was quick to defend him as “experimental” and also seemed to love the height difference.

    Lesson: the hottest girls want guys who are somewhat sleazy, and much taller than they are. Drug addictions, lots of exes, a plus. So too, a non-trivial age difference. Just as good an alternative to the Clooney model is the Shepherd model, particularly if you can fake the drug addictions, exes, and present a high-functioning “lots of sleazebag problems” image. Also target smaller women, the taller you are the better.

    There is probably (seriously) a business opportunity here, a ‘make you a sleazebag’ service that will convince women you are the Shepherd model. While of course you remain the sane and sober and employed you. Women LOVE LOVE LOVE drama.


    • There’s a new film by a female director “Seeking a Friend for the End of the World”. Do not pay to see this because she’s giving bad advice to men.

      Middle aged beta male Steve Carrell of 40 Year Old Virgin fame is sitting in his car with his rather attractive same-age wife who wants a divorce. The radio reports that Asteroid Matilda cannot be diverted and will destroy the Earth in 3 weeks. The wife becomes all the more eager to run from him.

      10 days later he’s done nothing, out of depression, while the rest of the world has done a good job of organizing orgies and such. Virgins are begging men to give them experience. He sits and mopes.

      We’re supposed to relate to him moping, at least if we’re over 40 we’re supposed to identify with this sniveling little beta. We’re supposed to see ourselves as “sensitive males”. We’re supposed to feel ourselves left out, even if all the younger people go into full-scale orgy mode. That’s the main reason you must not pay to see this crap. They will only produce more of it if they earn profits.

      Then his friends try to get him laid with willing partners. He refuses because he has to be in love with someone. 7 days left to the end of the world and you’ll refuse sex with an 8? Why does this director think there would even be one male to identify with this nonsense?

      Except the female director thinks she’s targeting the beta religious male community together with the meak metrosexual and asexual male community.

      Which the producers of this film probably assumed was a huge market of both Republican and Democrat American betas.

      He meets Kiera Knightley despite having zero game and he did not open her. She knocked on his window and said “Can I come in, I promise I won’t steal anything if you promise not to rape me”.

      Again, the female director is telling betas they don’t have to bother women with opens. A hot Kiera Knightley will knock on your window when you least expect it if you’re a nice guy.

      They do the usual “running from the riots of Armageddon” stuff and, after an entire restaurant filled with young people starts an impromptu orgy, he of course runs away to the parking lot to escape. Riiighht.

      She comes with him and then she seduces him, apparently against his will. We’re supposed to find this lower beta spiel funny, like slapstick I guess.

      Then he feels guilty about it, saying “I didn’t want to take advantage of you. It just happened”. This isn’t meant to sound ridiculous. The screenwriters felt a good metrosexual or christian male would talk like this.

      Did the producer of this film think any female viewer would appreciate this?

      Then he says “You’re so young. I didn’t plan to exploit you. By the way, how old are you? 30, 31?” (he wasn’t doing this as a neg nor did the director presume to have her take it as a neg, which a real woman would have, showing how screen writers can be quite clueless these days).

      Kiera Knightley answers “26”.

      Steve Carrel immediately does a facepalm hating himself for having behaved like a pedophile, apologizing and saying “that’s just too large an age difference”. This was not meant as ridiculous slapstick. The audience was supposed to relate to this feeling.

      She’s like “Chill out. It’s fine”.

      This is where the mental sickness of the director/producers/screenwriters is most evident.

      Apparently she’s granting that the males in the audience would appreciate being allowed to relate to this male who just got “really lucky” supposedly. She thinks she’s presenting them a fantasy. But she’s telling middle aged males the following “rules” which must be applied even if an asteroid will destroy the earth in 7 days:

      a) that the younger woman a middle aged man seeks must be 26 or more, not 25 or under.
      b) that he must let her seduce him and still apologize for exploiting her

      I fast forwarded through the rest of the film, but he gets oneitis and, not wanting to exploit her more, sends her while she’s sleeping to a peaceful death with his father who wants to crash his plane.

      So he attempts the murder (mercy killing) of the woman he most wants to sleep with and now apparently loves, with 2 days left to the end of the world.

      He’s still got a complex about her being too young for him = too good for him.

      She stops the father from crashing the plane with her in it, returns and finds the now Omega Male with 10 minutes before the asteroid strikes.

      He lies on the bed with her, not touching her, telling her that he loves her for her mind, not her body and she really appreciates it as he says “I’m really glad I met you” as the glare from the approaching fireball gets brighter and brighter and the world ends. There was no hugging involved.

      Steve Carrell will be arrested and tried for treason when the new male order finally takes over from the fembots.


  89. Lots of good comments above, here’s my experience:

    It’s a zen sort of thing. If you try to act towards what you desire, you lose it. You have to instead adopt the mindset that you can walk away from any female any time, especially the nubile young ones. Be one with this mindset. It pays off. Won’t happen overnight, but then again, great things rarely do. Once you get into the groove, younger women will approach you.

    Tactics, in no particular order:
    * Do not be needy or desperate. Do not suck up to females.
    * Body language: yeah, it sounds corny, but walk like a man.
    * Go out with women your own age so you are comfortable in the dating scene.
    * Go out with women (even if just friends) where you can be seen by younger women. Younger women are incredibly curious about older guys who are dating other women and will sometimes quite brazenly approach you — even if you are with another woman.
    * If/when she approaches you, get her number, call her up a day or two later, arrange for a brief meeting (like at a corporate franchise coffee bar) and spend about an hour talking. Then use that to set up the next date. Do NOT try to do anything big the first time out.
    * Don’t home in on “10s.” There are plenty of decent females who do not look like Playboy models but who are in great shape and are open to going out with an older man.
    * If/when you strike out in a public place, like a club, walk away and don’t go back. The jungle telegraph will broadcast your being shot down and you’ll come off as another “old guy” trying to scam on young chicks. And then you will be dead in the water with all females there.
    * If/when you succeed in a public place, other females will home in on you because suddenly you’re the new hot guy. (Go figure…)
    * Do not waste large amounts of time on the phone or texting. Critical thing is to see her in person.
    * When you go out, don’t ask her permission, tell her what she is to do.
    * Stay in reasonable shape but don’t be a fanatic.
    * Dress your own age.
    * Act your own age, not like some frat bro.
    * Have a nice car but don’t think that your BMW-Benz-Jag wheels are gonna sweep her away.
    * Don’t try to buy her gold digger style, but don’t cut corners with money. For example, I impressed the heck out of a 22 year old I dated because I actually paid to park at clubs instead of parking blocks away and walking to save ten dollars like her usual college age dates. To me, paying for parking is SOP (largely because it’s safer than dumping the vehicle on the street), but to her, it was an adult thing.
    * IMPORTANT! If you’re into clubs, know the scene inside and out and be able to take her to places she’d never get to otherwise. After hours places, highbrow places, underground places, loft parties, whatever.
    * Sh*t tests: recognize them, defuse them.
    * One strike and she is out (like she flakes on you, she’s history). This is good discipline for yourself as well as impressing other young women in her circle.
    * Stay in control. Never lose your cool. You’re the adult, get her to move up to your standard, not you down to hers.
    * Double emphasis on staying in control if you are out drinking!
    * Never ever go out with underage females. Period. End of discussion.
    * Don’t expect sex with every woman you go out with, but if it comes to it, take charge. Have safe sex materials ready to roll.
    * Sex will usually be within the first three dates, if at all. Forget about romance. If she wants you, she doesn’t want to play long term games courting. If she doesn’t want you, then no amount of romance will “win her heart.”

    * AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST! No matter how hot she is, always always always be ready to call it “quits” if she gets too far out of line. Like DeNiro’s crew in the movie Heat, “Don’t let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds.”


  90. Celebrity status is the greatest chick crack.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYU1a0lTTTw


  91. Some responses to shit tests from younger girls:

    How old are you?

    Me: 25, but i like older women like you..

    Me: I’m Benjamin Button….

    Me: You want a boy or a man?

    if this continues i reframe: How much do you weigh?


  92. whiskeysplace
    There is probably (seriously) a business opportunity here, a ‘make you a sleazebag’ service that will convince women you are the Shepherd model. While of course you remain the sane and sober and employed you. Women LOVE LOVE LOVE drama.
    Yeah, hire a scary-just-got-out-of-prison nigger to sell you fake drugs and exchange negro dialect with you…

    Nothing says white boy cred like having the “savages” under voice command.

    Imagine the look on her face when the nigger shows up at your house to pick up his gun he left in your bathroom?

    Her: “who’s that?”

    You: “oh thats Tayshaw, he works for me”

    Her: “doing what?”

    You: “none of your business; now get that dress off!”

    Tarzan is the white womens wet dream.


  93. I’m in my 40’s and teach at a university (don’t hate), so my experience and some of my methods are different, but I hope useful. For the record, on-my-roster = off-limits, at least for the time being ;-). So, #1: don’t shit where you eat, my friend.

    The advantages I have are these: I have access to a small city of young women in an environment where my presence is not cause for the creepies; I don’t have to work AS hard to demonstrate value; and a certain amount of dominance on my part is assumed. But I have to walk a fine, fine line. If slip and do or say anything remotely creepy, there are websites where students can post that about me which a lot of others will read. Therefore,

    #2. Indirect game is best, indirect day game even better.

    #3. Stay away from night spots where your age bracket is grossly outnumbered, for reasons others have already mentioned.

    For those of you who don’t have the advantages I have, find a way to replicate them. Whatever it is you’re good at, find an environment with younger women in it where you can demonstrate that skill. Whether it’s teaching a cooking class or frequenting a bookstore coffee-area, make it happen. A book (a good book) is a great lure for the young, smarter-than-average coed who, while probably tapped, thinks of herself as “outside the box.” Better yet, a photography book. If you know nothing about photography, just say you’re trying to improve your skills.

    But the absolute most important thing is this:

    #4. Be prepared to wait. Many of my trysts didn’t take place until a year or more after I met the women, usually where they work as a waitress or something in a non-student venue. Then, a few weeks before they graduate and leave (read: no social consequences for her), they decide it’s time to see if the old prof can teach them a private lesson. Often, I barely ran any game on them at all, except insofar as expressing little interest works. Conversations arise naturally, so early on just drop the bare minimum detail needed to establish value and leave it at that for a while. You will see this girl frequently over time, and you’re not going to lure her away from the next shaven-chested frat-boy on her list anyway, so direct game is nearly futile.

    Oh, and dress like you have a job. Fashionable is good, but fashionable for your age. A 40-year old in an Abercrombie shirt might as well be wearing a chastity belt.


    • Yes, that “be prepared to wait” sentence was right on. At that age, there’s at least a few weeks where you fit safely into their world.


  94. 36, have been seeing a hot 20 year old. I tease hard, have zero neediness or investment but not totally aloof, always assumed the sale. Laugh at her shit tests (though really, hers are pretty mild), tear it up in bed.

    In other words, solid basics.

    It won’t last, but it’s good fun.

    Younger guys, heed me: attracting girls has only gotten easier in my late 20s and early 30s. You need not settle. You need not judge yourself by who you can attract at 21.


  95. Hmm. I would personally love to date a significantly older man (I’m 31, plain looking but healthy), but I’m terrified of the possibility of love happening, a serious relationship following, and one day I’m an active and happy 60-year-old while he is over 80 and I will have to witness him crumble both mentally and physically, leading to a possibly slow, painful death. Just no. Too high risk.

    One thing I have to say though… I am not sure what other women think but for me the “selfish asshole” attitude on an older man is a serious turn-off. I somehow expect an older man to be somewhat kind (note: not_nice_!), as if he’s not I’m led to believe that he either 1) hasn’t experienced that much in life and is thus “childish” 2) is a bit dumb. A middle-aged man acting like an egoistical 20-something is just laughable. The life-experience and years of contemplation should show.

    But older men are attractive indeed… and very young ones too. Personally I find the age from late 20’s to early 40’s most unattractive in men. Young men can be interesting, idealistic and fun. Then they turn absolutely boring… it’s all about his career, his car and his money. Then perhaps in their 40’s they start to develop personality again, look around themselves and regain their imaginations, becoming more and more interesting until dementhia takes it’s toll. Such a shame men look their best during the years their personalities are at their worst.


    • Preach it, Kristi. I’m an older man in my fifties: kind, considerate, well-traveled / educated / rounded etc., and if I wasn’t married, I’d be asking for your phone number.

      As for suddenly waking up and finding you’re 60 and he’s a doddering old fart of 80: just dump his ass and find a handsome 65-year-old. OR: you could not behave like a 20-year-old hypergamous slut and stay with the man you love and who gave you 20 years of happiness, companionship and fidelity.

      Just a thought…


      • Oh dear, behaving like a 20-year-old hypergamous slut sounds like such a handy way around things! I wish I could do that, but sadly I’m cursed with things like empathy, loyalty to loved ones and… uh… a heart.

        I’d love to give you my phone number if you weren’t married and I wasn’t so thoroughly liberal and thus probably way too unfeminine. Men who can talk about things like art, literature and classical music as an equal are hard to come by.


  96. […] – The First SWPL President, Hot Girls Need Your Best Game, The Allure Of Male Dominance, Older Man Game, Comment Of The Week, Women Gossip To Compete For […]


  97. I’m in my fifties, and my opinions on this topic are these.

    1) I wouldn’t think of dating a younger woman (20-40), because mostly:

    a) they’re stupid, ignorant and vapid
    b) they’re impossibly self-centered
    c) they’re fickle
    d) they’re hung up on having kids
    e) they have priorities that are not mine
    i) they’re liberal twerps who have no cogent ideas about anything [see a) above] and are reflexive feminists through liberal schooling and conditioning
    f) we have nothing — nothing — in common to talk about (music, art, literature whatever)
    g) I’m not interested in being a teacher (no real reward for me)
    h) I don’t need my ego stroked by being a figure of envy to other men by the arm candy I’m poking.

    2) Older women (45+) are better, because:

    a) they’ve had menopause, ergo no kid issues or pregnancy scares
    b) their kids are grown up (if they have any) so you don’t have to babysit
    c) they are better in bed. Seriously. Younger women are enthusiastic but they don’t know shit. They’re little better than RealDolls speaking bullshit. (Nor, according to women of my age who’ve had younger lovers, are young men, which is why most 45+ women prefer dildoes to men. Don’t bother to argue, I’ve seen the research on this.)
    d) usually, they have money and/or jobs, so they don’t need a provider. (If they do need money/a provider, then it’s MOA time.)
    e) they appreciate gentlemanly behavior more than younger women — and I live in the South, where women are more womanly than the average
    f) yeah, they sag. BFD. I don’t look as good as I did in HS or the Army, either.
    g) they don’t do shit tests, unless they’re impossibly spoiled in which case MOA
    h) they’re more appreciative of male attention because they don’t get much, as a rule.

    At my age, if I’m going to date any woman, she has to bring lots of stuff to the party: a decent attitude, some life wisdom, sense of humor, serious education and a shitload of culture — stuff, in other words, that no younger woman can possibly have. Otherwise, I can just hang out by myself or with my buddies,shooting guns, watching movies, reading, traveling to different places, playing my guitar or writing my latest novel.

    You see, the nice thing about being in your fifties is that women can no longer lead you around by your dick, because you have needs which are just as worthwhile (to you) as poon. You live life on your own terms: when you score, you score; if not, who cares? There are enough notches on the bedpost already.