HBD And PUA

AHE comments:

it is ironic the HBD movement is so closely associated with the Game o sphere.

on the one hand u have people arguing genes dont lie. on the other, people argue it isnt too hard to lie about your genes.

HBD (for those readers who aren’t yet familiar with the term) stands for “human biodiversity” and is a school of thought that acknowledges that humans differ genetically in character traits on the population group level as well as the individual level. It shares an underlying doctrine with PUA (pickup artistry) — namely, that evolutionary science can explain a lot about modern human behavior, whether ethnic, racial, or sexual. Thus, HBD and PUA are cross-linked on a foundational level. Perhaps the most notable difference is that practitioners in PUA, through the use of game, are candid about seeking to exploit the knowledge of generalizable human behavioral differences for personal fun and profit. HBD believers (which, in actuality, includes most of humanity, regardless of their claims to believing it or not) hide their true intentions behind an obfuscatory cloud of squid ink and evasion even as they rush to move to undiverse neighborhoods when their kids are old enough to go to school.

The difference between a PUA and the typical HBD follower: the PUA has the integrity to stand by his actions and not insult your intelligence.

But the web has released an unabashed HBD Kraken from its underwater lair, and this beast is not afraid to confront harsh realities without the whitewash of politesse and codewords. Unfortunately, in its zeal to smash pretty lies by the boatload, the movement tends to succumb to infatuation with its opposition theories. The faint whiff of immutable determinism swirls snugly like a straitjacket on the follower fringe. An impetus to categorize human interactions based on easily perceived objective traits hints at the nerd-lke systematizing mind trying to grasp the significance of the new and dangerous knowledge.

AHE’s comment is a perfect example of this, and similar to a lot of other anti-game comments floating around the HBD-sphere. His (her?) assertion that HBD is all about “genes don’t lie” betrays a newbie’s understanding of the science, or a liar’s facility with disingenuousness. No evolutionary scientist worth his salt would argue that genes are wholly deterministic, or that the environment plays no role in shaping who we are. What the HBD movement *does* argue is that, since the second half of the 20th century, the genetic explanation for human differences has gotten short shrift, while the environmental explanation — or “blank slate” paradigm — has been untouchable. HBD thus brings balance to the force by revealing the ugly truth that genes account for a lot more of who we are than is currently acknowledged by our ruling class cognoscenti. That this makes a lot of lying shitsacks uncomfortable is a doubleplusgood perk.

So AHE’s specious association between HBD and PUA beliefs is false. Game is not about lying about your genes, just as HBD is not about genes determining the totality of who you are.

AHE, and some others with HBD-themed blogs, claim that belief in game is like a belief in the blank slate — you can’t make an alpha out of an inborn beta. Genes über alles. What an out of tune pitch to make by some of our web’s best and brightest! Can no one improve his lot? Is a 90 IQ person incapable of learning anything? Should that dummy just hang it up as soon as he’s born and suckle through a feeding and drugging tube provided by his 120+ IQ elite caretakers?

Or, to put it in simpler terms, imagine two 90 IQ kids. One is dumped in an empty trailer park to fend for himself, separate from civilization, and the other is raised the normal way, up through high school where he earns a solid C average. Can anyone realistically say the former is going to possess the same knowledge base and the same power of reasoning as the latter? Yes, the average 90 IQ kid is not likely to achieve what the average 110 IQ kid will, but he can, through effort, maximize what he’s got.

In the same way, a natural born beta can work to maximize his attractiveness to women by learning and applying game. And we have the proof that it works, in the testimony of literally tens of thousands of men who have seen their success with women skyrocket after becoming acquainted with the principles and tactics of game. True, the beta with game may never reach the exalted heights of the natural born alpha, but he can improve his lay rate and the quality of women he dates.

Which brings us to a quirky observation of the HBD community: a number of HBD writers and commenters exhibit a curiously child-like lack of understanding of female nature, and what motivates women to make the decisions they do in the dating market. It’s a strange blindspot they have that is probably best explained by their nerdiness and their concomitant need to quantify male attractiveness based on readily observable traits and markers of a traditionalist coloration. Doubters like AHE can only see male worth in easily measurable metrics like looks, money, and material possessions. To them, no man who doesn’t have status along these metrics will see any success with “alpha mimicking” game.

But game alone is enough to attract women, regardless of the objectively measurable quantity of those other male attractiveness traits. As has been argued here before, GAME IS ITS OWN STATUS. Women are turned on by men with tight game as much as, or maybe more than, they are turned on by a man with good looks or a high powered job. Certainly the conventional measures are helpful to a man’s success with women, but they aren’t the whole story. Game itself is a turn-on for women, because game is a true, authentic manifestation of manly power. During the learning stage, some portions of game may be a “mimicking” of alpha traits, but once game is internalized it becomes as much a part of a man’s suite of powerful coolness as any other marker of male attractiveness. After all, a man gunning through law school to get a high paying job that is attractive to women is “mimicking” alpha traits — faking it till he makes it — just as much as the guy attending the university of game. That one route happens to be more efficient than the other for acquiring the love and sexual surrender of many women is no argument against its authenticity.

Furthermore, there is the matter of game being a positive indicator of desirable male traits in and of itself. The men who excel at game are signaling a high ability to learn and apply new concepts, and a fortitude to see a self-improvement project through to success. These characteristics — fortitude, open-mindedness, discipline, ambition — are attractive to women. Now some will say these traits are all genetically influenced, and that may be true, but if so it does not argue against game as an authentic signal of male fuckability.

So HBD nerds need to get over the obvious “money/looks/fame” box within which they argue and constrict themselves, and begin to see that, like human differences in general, there is room to remake ourselves into better versions of who we are. To deny this is to deny there is any reason to put forth effort into anything of note after birth. There is more than one way to pierce a pussy. Women love game-spitting charming assholes as much as they love resource-providing stoic captains of industry. There is no contradiction in this observation.

On a side note, betas having more kids than alphas is not necessarily evidence that they are better with women. Instead, all it could mean is that the betas are finally getting their shot at aging pussy after the alphas have had their fill of that same pussy when it was younger, hotter, tighter and uninterested in baby-making. Number of kids is a poor measure of alphaness in this hedonistic day and age.





Comments


  1. Of course they are in denial about game. Admitting otherwise would destory their change at tenure.

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  2. summoning the obsidian Kraken in T minus 10….9…8…

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  3. PUA is an art.
    HBD is genetics.
    Evolutionary Psychology is the last refuge of the scientifically destitute.

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  4. *claps hands, pulls up chair and waits for race thread to begin*

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  5. Roosh’s recent post seems to argue against your thesis

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  6. Roissy is not even a nobody in the PUA scene. This is not a criticism, but a statement of fact; search his name on the top pickup forums, and he is a complete unknown. And it is not for lack of talent; Roissy doesn’t sell products or workshops, and one wonders if his writing style keeps those of mediocre intellect at bay.

    To say that HBD is closely aligned with Game is false. Unless you mean Game as something completely distinct from the crimson arts, which it isn’t. Game & HBD bloggers are no one, but the scene is incestous enough to nurture delusions to the contrary.

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  7. Tucker Max lies about his height and secretly tapes buttsex.

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  8. “Women are turned on by men with tight game as much as, or maybe more than, they are turned on by a man with good looks or a high powered job. ”

    I’ve found that some women are more turned on by game than others. Just as I’m more attracted to brunettes than blonds, some women are turned on by fame, athletic ability, or game.

    Fortunately I can ignore the women not seeking game and find those who are. Generally those who are not vulnerable to game are approaching cougardom anyway.

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  9. I posted a little something on the topic a while back.

    http://glpiggy.wordpress.com/2010/04/26/the-tautology-of-alpha/

    I question Roissy’s definition of “alpha” that we’ve all operated under for the past couple of years, but the larger point is that female attraction is triggered by a great many variables.

    I point this out mainly in hopes that I’m not confused with the HBD type bloggers who seem hung up on these types of things.

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  10. “The men who excel at game are signaling a high ability to learn and apply new concepts, and a fortitude to see a self-improvement project through to success. These characteristics — fortitude, open-mindedness, discipline, ambition — are attractive to women.”

    Absolutely…. and even if women aren’t consciously aware of someone possessing these traits,…. these traits ultimately lead to success in some form or another, which women will be conscious of and find attractive.

    People with these genetic traits WILL be successful. At the moment game is the path of least resistance if the goal is getting laid.

    We are all ahead of the pack, by the fact that we are on this site.

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  11. I don’t think AHE is in denial about game or the strawmen that you created against him.

    “argue it isnt [b]too hard[/b] to lie about your genes”

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  12. No evolutionary scientist worth his salt would argue that genes are wholly deterministic, or that the environment plays no role in shaping who we are. What the HBD movement *does* argue is that, since the second half of the 20th century, the genetic explanation for human differences has gotten short shrift, while the environmental explanation — or “blank slate” paradigm — has been untouchable.

    most “scientists” who study evolution don’t have a whole lot to say about HBD, because they are biologists and not social scientists. they study genes, their their transmission and their mechanisms. most of the research on intelligence is done by psychologists. and again, evolutionary psychologists aren’t really social scientists.

    the most profound and interesting writers and academics who deal with the subject of evolution from a social science perspective have all but abandoned the nature v. nurture paradigm. it should be obvious to anyone who thinks clearly about this: in human beings genes often express themselves through culture and culture, in turn, helps select what genes get transmitted. it’s not one or the other. it’s not even x% of one versus y% of the other. it’s a complicated system of feedback mechanisms that defies the sort of reduction practiced by both HBD adherants and blank slaters.

    as for the notion that HBD is just trying to restore balance, i don’t buy it. the HBD movement seems primarily occupied with fighting progressives over things like affirmative action and immigration. saying that HBD brings balance is like saying that the bloods brought balance to south central LA by countering the dominance of the crips. technically, it’s true, but neither side is in the right.

    if people want to reduce the incredibly complicated mechanisms by which this world operates to a simple story of different tribes warring for goodies, go for it. personally, i find that shit boring.

    game, on the other hand, is not boring. mostly cause it tends to end with me penetrating moist vaj.

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  13. I’d be a lot more sanguine about your pop-biology posts if you didn’t use “biomechanics” to mean something completely unrelated to what it actually means.

    Just sayin’.

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  14. Another way to look at Chateau’s point about genes not being solely determinative, and that game can and does work is this.

    Gen Y which guys who learn about game haven’t exactly been living in a culture free environment. Instead they’ve being living in one suffused with feminism, which has worked hard to remove any natural game – which involves male social dominance including most definitely over girls he’s interested in. The boys that feminism has most targeted for brainwashing by fare the most are upper half (in SES and brains that tends to go with) white boys. Lingering notions of Anglosphere chivalrary aided and abetted feminism in much of this, despite battleground areas like abortion rights.

    By the time upper half white guys are in college, many whose genes might have easily tended to dispose them to develop into lesser alphas or even alphas, have become greater betas or betas instead, in terms of their raw gina tingling ability.

    This has been done by their mothers embracing feminist memes and often fathers who are too female accommodating, by schools and by the mass media. These guys have been taught that being the nice guy, complimentary and always respectful to girls, being interested in a fully equal relationship (which really means deferring to the female, and doing whatever she wants, currying favor), is the way to attract a pretty and otherwise good girlfriend. Which is all wrong — it’s good guy anti-game. But it’s what upper half gen Y white guys are taught.

    It’s particularly wrong if he wants to get in on the causal sex parade.

    If the guy is socially engaging, has leadership ability and/or a rebel streak, game can reverse all this and develop his inner alpha with hot chicks.

    If he’s a socially awkward nerd follower who only leads sometimes in technical matters and spheres by force of logic alone, game can still offer something, but way less I think. He’s still gonna have problems with most girls but maybe game can give him a better shot with cute geek girls.

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  15. I read that Audacious Epigone post, as well, where he asserted that betas have the most kids.

    http://anepigone.blogspot.com/2008/10/fewer-sexual-partners-means-more-babies.html

    A couple of thoughts.

    1) On aggregate, Women report having more kids than men. This is because women know when they have a kid, while a guy who pumped and dumped a girl may never find out that she carried a pregnancy to term. The men simply don’t know that their child exists. So it’s likely that men with many sexual partners (the ones who pump and dump) underreport their number of offspring.

    2) My guess would be that men with low numbers of sexual partners are more likely to be cuckolded, therefore overreport their number of offspring

    3) The big difference is between men with only 1 lifetime partner and the rest. Once a man has had more than one partner, the trend does not look significant. My guess is that religious couples, who married as virgins and were insulated from the realities of the sexual marketplace, are popping out big families and skewing the numbers.

    Some bullshit Freudian analysis of Audacious E: He seems like an amicable guy who has probably underperformed in his sex life relative to his ‘objective’ traits, and he’s put off by the thought that chicks really do love assholes. Before I embraced game, I had a similar mentality, so maybe I’m just projecting.

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  16. Game is skill to be practiced and mastered like say BasketBall for example. It helps if you were born with certain traits like being very tall, however, that is certainly not an indicator of whether one will be good at playing basket ball, it just indicates that should that person bust his ass training and practicing than he will have an advantage. Game is similar in that if you are born with certain traits, it helps so long as you bust your ass to learn the skill.

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  17. JR
    In your opinion, who are “the most profound and interesting writers and academics…”?

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  18. Chuck–

    I question Roissy’s definition of “alpha” that we’ve all operated under for the past couple of years, but the larger point is that female attraction is triggered by a great many variables.

    Yes but that observation is pretty useless Chuck. Chateau offers lots of specific tips, and an overall frame for game that actually works with girls.

    As well he doesn’t say game is the only attractor. He say that status, looks and money matter too, with game coming second to status generally. It’s just that game is the easiest to change, or is together with fixing obvious things about looks such as losing weight if needed, and building some muscle at least to the point of being toned, and having a good clothes style.

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  19. AHE has a valid point. There’s definitely a major streak of blank slatism running through the game community, partially because a lot of people are selling something, but also just because extreme overconfidence in one’s ability to improve is adaptive.

    Few would argue that a beta cannot drastically increase his lay rate by applying game, but there are a large number of PUA’s who would make the claim that PU is 100% effort and practice, and suggesting otherwise is a “self-limiting belief.”

    In my mental model of game and genetics, everyone is imbued with two qualities that are both mostly genetic: 1) Natural game, i.e. good looks, charm, athleticism, social acumen, and 2) Ability to consciously improve game through applied effort, i.e. intelligence, conscientiousness, openness to experience.

    What percentage of people have the intellectual ability to actually read about and understand the evolutionary background of human female sexual behaviour? Or even just memorize routines?

    Style, Mystery, TD and others like them had weak natural game, but could understand and apply theoretical game very well. Someone like gunwitch had strong natural game plus a reasonably above-average ability to apply new concepts.

    So on one hand, you have the anti-PUA’s who claim that game is generally ineffective, attractiveness is immutable, etc. They are idiots. But there are also a lot of new-agey, “all-of-your-limits-are-in-your-MIND” PUA’s who are equally unrealistic. A short, ugly, slow-witted man who dutifully studies game will never out-seduce a smarter, better-looking man who puts in the same amount of effort.

    Game is an invaluable tool for men in the 21st century, and anyone who can make use of it and doesn’t, is a fool or a coward. However, given two men of equal seduction ability, the genetically better-endowed one will always have more options. Beyond these duh-inducing banalities, dwell petty lies in all directions.

    Cheers,

    Zdeno

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  20. and balls,

    a couple of names that pop into my head are matt ridley, richard dawkins, edward o wilson and herb gintis.

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  21. PUA/Game has little to do with HBD. The fallacy here is that because there clearly exists biological and psychological differences between the two sexes that most people operate in ignorance of, then there exists well defined racial populations with significantly different distributions of a well defined IQ. But the link isn’t there and the evidence for the second isn’t.

    Most HBD bloggers admit that game is a PR strategy to bring men in and then hit them with the racial differences theories and right wing politics. Roissy has been seen as a link between the two camps (and also MRA/MGOTW), but notice that none of the HBD bois use game or even talk about it. HalfSigma and OneStdv are more likely to mention computer games and programming than picking-up women. Married guy game doesn’t count, if they’re only trying to “game” their middle aged wife and not out approaching.

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  22. “it’s a complicated system of feedback mechanisms that defies the sort of reduction practiced by both HBD adherants and blank slaters.”

    It’s not always THAT complicated. E.g. first cousin fucking, or to put it euphemistically, “tribalism” causes a good chunk of the IQ depression in places where Islam is dominant.

    Good religions facilitate sufficient biodiversity to avoid this genetic deadend. Bad religions and “cultures”, not so much.

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  23. on September 24, 2010 at 4:56 pm too late for romance

    So HBD nerds need to get over the obvious “money/looks/fame” box within which they argue and constrict themselves, and begin to see that, like human differences in general, there is room to remake ourselves into better versions of who we are.

    No they don’t.

    I know several six figure a year geeks who have zero self-confidence but are ardent HBD fans. Because they’re massive nerds with average looks, they use HBD as a rationalization not to learn how to dress, start working out, and take the other steps to get better with women.

    And I am sure that there must be thousands of other “men” with great jobs, lots of money, and absolutely no idea about how women really work who use HBD in the same manner: to justify their inaction.

    So please, by all means allow them to continue with their weak inability to face reality. Their ignorance is my strength. I don’t want the competition.

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  24. The HBD crowd suffer from a massive internal contradiction. They claim there are differences among racial groups, and some groups are more fit than others — fine.

    Then they complain that the “less fit” are somehow having more babies and getting ahead in life at the expense of the “more fit.”

    Guys: that’s the definition of fitness! If those groups are having more kids and getting your stuff, it kind of proves you aren’t as fit as they are, evolutionarily speaking.

    [Editor: Remove the safety net of the welfare state and let’s see how “fit” all those losers pumping out broods of parasites remain.]

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  25. Doug1:

    Yes but that observation is pretty useless Chuck. Chateau offers lots of specific tips, and an overall frame for game that actually works with girls.

    As well he doesn’t say game is the only attractor. He say that status, looks and money matter too, with game coming second to status generally. It’s just that game is the easiest to change, or is together with fixing obvious things about looks such as losing weight if needed, and building some muscle at least to the point of being toned, and having a good clothes style.

    I’m not knocking *Roissy’s* tips (I don’t know who Chateau is); his tips aren’t contingent on his definition of “alpha”. So, really, Roissy’s definition in the first place was pretty useless too; my post just carried on with the mental masturbation that lies at the heart of most blog posts. Roissy’s whole blog has been about a melding of theory and practice; that’s been the beauty of it. The theory part is mainly useless (“regular” PUA blogs offer straight up routines with no thinking; if you want a quick guide to getting laid I’d argue that those would be better than Roissy), but if it’s going to be discussed we might as well discuss it all the way, right?

    And I’m also not saying that he diminishes other attributes important to seduction. Roissy knows the score.

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  26. on September 24, 2010 at 5:10 pm Obstinance Works

    I’m pretty fly for a white guy.

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  27. “Guys: that’s the definition of fitness! If those groups are having more kids and getting your stuff, it kind of proves you aren’t as fit as they are, evolutionarily speaking.”

    But that’s not the whole story, so this argument is a bit on the specious side.

    It’s like saying my golden retriever lives better than the bum on the streets, hence is evolutionarily more fit.

    Well, the bum could go on anti-psychotic meds, join AA and get his life back on track.

    My golden retriever is still a dog. Just cause his master favors him don’t make him “evolutionarily speaking” as fit as a human.

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  28. PUA and HBD overlap because both are derived from the evolutionary psychology construction of man. This is also why the HBD community has so many proponents of the paleo diet as well.

    Awhile back I wrote a very brief exegesis of this:

    http://onestdv.blogspot.com/2010/07/more-evidence-for-paleo-worldview-diet.html

    The philosophy presented has internal consistency and, I’d like to think, external veracity. On this blog, I’ve supported the existence of racial intelligence and behavioral differences, gender norms, objective beauty standards, ethnic and racial kinship as underlying social phenomena, Game as insight into the female attraction psyche, egoism as a primary motivation of man, and a bunch of other cool shit.

    To the dilettante, the topics presented have a somewhat tenuous connection to each other. But in actuality, besides their common blasphemy against the prevailing zeitgeist, each position is ultimately derived from an evolutionary psychology conception of man. Or equivalently, many of the characteristics of man, from his social predilections to his cognitive acuteness, are vestiges from a pre-civilization past. Man’s constitution was long ago constructed in his evolutionary history, forged within hunter-gatherer tribes and the arduous circumstances of nature that mercilessly selected our fittest members.

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  29. I’m somewhat surprised though about the derisive tone of this post given you link to a number of HBD-centered sites like HalfSigma, Sailer, OneSTDV, Parapundit, and GNXP.

    [Editor: I’m not anti-HBD. Quite the contrary. The derisiveness is directed at that subset of HBD nerds who see looks/money/job and nothing else when trying to figure out how the female hindbrain works.]

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  30. Cauthon—

    I read that Audacious Epigone post, as well, where he asserted that betas have the most kids.

    In an age without birth control they wouldn’t. That was virtually all of human history. The evolutionary past is what shaped female sexual desires, not the birth control rich last few decades (in the developed world).

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  31. Game + U G L Y aint got no ALIBI = 10 tingle points
    No Game + Toned, Hot ‘N’ Handsome = 10 tingle points
    Game + Toned, Hot ‘N’ Handsome = 1000 tingle points

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  32. Trimegistus
    I’d be a lot more sanguine about your pop-biology posts if you didn’t use “biomechanics” to mean something completely unrelated to what it actually means.

    So True. The term “biomechanics” is used to discuss broken necks and sprained ankles, not jealousy and love.

    [Editor: Well, guess what? I just co-opted the term mothafuckaaaaaaaa!]

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  33. I think TAE’s data simply reflects the higher fertility rate of religious (rural) versus secular (urban) population in the GSS. religious people are known to have fewer partners, they also known to have more babies. the data cannot be used to support non-PUA or contradict PUA.

    http://anepigone.blogspot.com/2008/10/fewer-sexual-partners-means-more-babies.html

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  34. The whole HBD discussion on the Internet, without the self-righteous bullshit, can be summed in:

    HBD: Darkies have more Testosterone and Game, so why bother.

    Obsidian: Whites have more IQ and they do more money, so why bother.

    Both need to get stuffed. Life isn’t fair, nobody starts equal, and we all should do what we can with what we have. All the whining on the world won’t change that.

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  35. That there was a surprisingly sane post. Almost so sane it’s boring.

    To add some more boring sanity:
    It would be surprising if any two groups of people had no difference in any assortment of traits, such as IQ, game, what-have-you. It is just not at all clear which group has more, or how much more, and even less clear what the correct policy to deal with such differences is, on a social or individual level. In the mating market, game seems to be an effective strategy, but by no means the end-all and be-all, unless you apply such blanket definitions as “game is about doing what works”

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  36. “Game is not about lying about your genes”

    semantics

    [Editor: You made the claim. I answered it. Your move.]

    “AHE, and some others with HBD-themed blogs, claim that belief in game is like a belief in the blank slate”

    not sure where i made that claim.

    [Nice backpedal.]

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  37. AHE:

    “Game is not about lying about your genes”

    semantics

    Your genes allow you to be a height in a certain range and give you a brain in which you can exercise free will.

    Now if you use your God-given/gene-built brain and eat the appropriate food to reach your maximum height potential, are you ‘lying’ about your genes?

    The only scenario in which you ‘lie’ about your genes is in — say — not confessing to a being a carrier of sickle cell.

    Believing that genetics makes up the foundation from where you have to build does not mean you cannot build anything.

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  38. The HBD crowd suffer from a massive internal contradiction. They claim there are differences among racial groups, and some groups are more fit than others — fine.

    Then they complain that the “less fit” are somehow having more babies and getting ahead in life at the expense of the “more fit.”

    Feel free to quote someone in the HBD-sphere saying that. There is a difference between traits that maximize Darwinian fitness and traits that are of value to the rest of society. The white nationalist line of reason would be that it’s not that blacks are unfit in Darwinian terms, its that they are unfit in utilitarian terms. The eugenics movement was founded on the realization that natural selection didn’t always favor the traits society found desirable, therefore we as a society need to consciously intervene as a means of rectifying that.

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  39. [Editor: You made the claim. I answered it. Your move.]

    no, it’s still your move.

    [Editor: Re-read the post for comprehension and get back to me.]

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  40. OT: I know there’s been a discussion of Zuckerberg here recently. This guy just busted a pimp-worthy move that shows, regardless of everything that’s been said here about him, he’s playing in the big leagues.

    What do you before an unflattering Hollywood portrayal of you hits that streets and defines you for the masses?

    That’s right. A move so simple it’s brilliant.

    You go on Oprah and cut a $100M check for education.

    Define yourself before they define you.

    That’s the game.

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  41. Trimegistus
    I’d be a lot more sanguine about your pop-biology posts if you didn’t use “biomechanics” to mean something completely unrelated to what it actually means.

    So True. The term “biomechanics” is used to discuss broken necks and sprained ankles, not jealousy and love.

    [Editor: Well, guess what? I just co-opted the term mothafuckaaaaaaaa!]

    Co-opt. Fine. But you sound like a retard whose never taken a single biology course.

    [Editor: Every novelist in recorded history who used a word meaning one thing to metaphorically describe something similar just wept.]

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  42. Original JB

    My golden retriever is still a dog. Just cause his master favors him don’t make him “evolutionarily speaking” as fit as a human.

    Yeah, but if you favored your golden retriever so much that you allowed her to invite in all the dog palls she liked and have litter after litter which you felt obligated to feed out of a sense of multispecies acceptance and noblesse oblige, taking over your house and budget, your particular evolutionary fitness, or really that of your meme set / cultural beliefs, could well be called into question.

    Solution: change your meme set.

    Which is why we should mine the border with Mexico and then mark it well with a cheap low fence for marking purposes, and advertise the hell out of the fact in Mexico and Central America. And then deport all illegals, minor anchor babies and all (unless a citizen adopts a particular one). And then actually fine employers who hire illegals.

    [Editor: The guys who are claiming that underclass trash is more evolutionarily fit than their betters because they litter the world with more of their degenerate spawn are forgetting that much of that fitness is propped up by generous welfare benefits that flow from the bleeding hearts of those having few kids. Remove that support and society will quickly revert to its natural lord of the dies state.]

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  43. Perhaps I spoke too soon.

    [Editor: Remove the safety net of the welfare state and let’s see how “fit” all those losers pumping out broods of parasites remain.]

    The reproductive profligacy of the low IQ masses can hardly be reduced to a consequences of the welfare state. The birth-rates in Sub-Sahan African nations such as DR Congo, Liberia and Niger is a testament to that. Not much of a safety net in those places.

    [Editor: How much aid does Africa receive from the 1st world in money, food, and medicine? Take all that away and the death rate will rapidly increase until a Malthusian set point is reached. Sure, they may continue having loads of kids, but a lot of them will die in the streets.]

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  44. [Editor: Re-read the post for comprehension and get back to me.]

    i read the post and didn’t recognize myself anywhere in it.

    [Editor: Your stupidity is not my moral crisis.]

    as for the concept that Game is akin to lying about your genes: what are girls looking for in a sexual mate? good genes.

    [Actually, no. Girls are looking for a man who makes their vaj tingle. I doubt the thought of genes ever enters their pretty little heads.]

    is Game about making one’s genes appear better or not?

    [It’s about behaving in a way that is attractive to the majority of women.]

    it is at least one way of looking at it.

    [Looking at it the way you do will lead to incorrect conclusions.]

    if you don’t want to look at it that way, no biggie, but you are willfully denying it is a fair way to look at it.

    [If game is lying about your genes, then so is studying to get a law degree, working hard to earn lots of money, or hitting the gym to build muscle. So the way you are “looking at it” is sophistic at best, and silly at worst.]

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  45. [Nice backpedal.]

    nice re-frame.

    [Nice evasion.]

    Like


  46. [Editor: How much aid does Africa receive from the 1st world in money, food, and medicine? Take all that away and the death rate will rapidly increase until a Malthusian set point is reached. Sure, they may continue having loads of kids, but a lot of them will die in the streets.]

    First world aide also contributes by bringing in contraceptives which suppress the birth rate. I’m not sure how many people benefit from first world aide with such highly populated nations which means it would have to be spread pretty thin or reach a rather limited percentage of the population. Theres also the issue of corrupt regimes, armed militias, rebel groups stealing and hoarding all the food for their own people.

    Like


  47. i still stand by my original comment. your convoluted post makes me see the irony all the richer.

    Like


  48. “…a number of HBD writers and commenters exhibit a curiously child-like lack of understanding of female nature, and what motivates women to make the decisions they do in the dating market. It’s a strange blindspot they have that is probably best explained by their nerdiness and their concomitant need to quantify male attractiveness based on readily observable traits and markers of a traditionalist coloration. Doubters like AHE can only see male worth in easily measurable metrics like looks, money, and material possessions.”

    There’s another, deeper layer to this. What is the _reason_ why humanity’s most brilliant writers couldn’t figure out what women are sexually attracted to over several millennia? Because the markers of a man’s fitness have to be _difficult_to_fake_, so a woman isn’t easily fooled into falling for a less fit man. Evolution programmed women to respond to male behaviors that males don’t recognize as being special at all, because those are the most reliable indicators. Guys wind up thinking that women are primarily attracted to money or looks or expensive cars because they literally don’t perceive the very traits in men that are getting women wet.

    [Editor: Good point. This is why the concept of game is so difficult to grasp for so many; and, in fact, a lot of game principles — like body language, qualification, negs, and kino escalation — are a bit esoteric for the average man to comprehend.]

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  49. [Editor: Your stupidity is not my moral crisis.]

    good one

    “as for the concept that Game is akin to lying about your genes: what are girls looking for in a sexual mate? good genes.

    [Actually, no. Girls are looking for a man who makes their vaj tingle. I doubt the thought of genes ever enters their pretty little heads.]’

    you doubt it enters their pretty little heads? whatever happened to the use of your word “hindbrain”?

    [Editor: The female hindbrain reacts to a man’s behaviors and traits. It does not react to a spreadsheet of the details of his genes. The male behaviors and traits are proxies for his genes. This distinction is important, because it means that the proxies can be adjusted — improved upon in some circumstances — in a way that the actual gene coding underlying it all cannot.
    For instance, if your natural body type is ectomorphic and you are a skinny geek, then hitting the gym can put on enough muscle to make you lean and attractive to many more women. But your ectomorphic genes haven’t changed at all. Are you lying? No. Not unless you want to argue that anything done in service of self-improvement or adaptation to the environment is lying. And if that’s what you argue, then be prepared to indict just about every woman alive for using makeup, heels and coyness to make themselves more attractive to men.
    Which brings us back to the point that your argument is silly.]

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  50. On a side note, betas having more kids than alphas is not necessarily evidence that they are better with women. Instead, all it could mean is that the betas are finally getting their shot at aging pussy after the alphas have had their fill of that same pussy when it was younger, hotter, tighter and uninterested in baby-making.

    While this is theoretically possible, the data we have suggests that people mate assortively by sociosexuality and that men with low partner counts tend to end up mating, and making babies with, women with low partner counts.

    http://manwhoisthursday.blogspot.com/2010/07/myth-of-player-who-marries-virgin.html

    [Editor: Sure, but wouldn’t that partially confirm my point? Betas going a while with no action until they meet another low partner count chick? Anyhow, if true and betas are meeting quasi-virginal girls early on and having lots of kids with them, it still doesn’t argue that these betas are “alpha” in any sense of the term. I’d be pretty fucking depressed if I only got to bang one woman in my life, unless she were a 9 or 10, which would make a fine anti-depressent.
    Btw, Thursday, check out Cauthon’s comment above where he argued against AE’s interpretation of some of his data. What do you think of that?]

    Like


  51. I love this blog… I do.

    But one thing has really started to bug me. The term “younger, hotter, tighter”.

    Whilst “younger” and “hotter” are general descriptive terms referring to a woman closer to her sexual prime, “tighter” I just find not only superfluous but quite gross.

    [Editor: What did you expect? Tea time?]

    And worse still when you link the 3 terms together it becomes a catch phrase which others pick up on and repeat endlessly.

    [The credit for the phrase goes to GBFM. I liked it so I appropriated it.]

    We have more than enough catch phrases already, I would be happy if this one died a swift and painless death because I find it personally repulsive.

    [How about ‘younger, hotter, inelastic’?]

    Like


  52. Yeah, religious people marry other religious people, and secular people marry secular. My guess is PUA is most strong within the secular community.

    While this is theoretically possible, the data we have suggests that people mate assortively by sociosexuality and that men with low partner counts tend to end up mating, and making babies with, women with low partner counts.

    http://manwhoisthursday.blogspot.com/2010/07/myth-of-player-who-marries-virgin.html

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  53. “I doubt the thought of genes ever enters their pretty little heads.]”

    Not exactly so. I’d say genes or my self-assessment genes did play a role in my “mating strategy.” I’m not quite 5’5″. So being short (aka: seeing guys drool over leggy females, luckily, the same genes that make them tall, usually make them flat as an iron) impacted my mate selection, at least to a degree. Why would I curse my female offspring with the stigma of being short unnecessarily?

    I’m fairly certain through visual cues and my heightened sense of smell, I can determine suitable mate choices. As for muscles, I could probably go as thin as a lean (not scrawny) 165-170 lbs., but that would have to include extremely physical recreationally or possible a physical job, not a 165-lb desk sitter/couch potato. But more muscle (at a younger age) is preferable (meaning it was gained naturally since not many 15yo boys are bulging with muscles) because I have to work really hard for every ounce of muscle I’ve got. (Again, why would I curse my offspring with what I perceive to be physical limitations.)
    As far as strength, since I’ve got quite a bit for my size and gender compared to my spin-class-is-hard female peers, proportionally, I need demonstration of that strength in a mate. I essentially made these choices early (and probably not completely aware of at that time) and took myself off the market before I was really old enough to be on it. I had a best friend, though, who was turned off by guys who weighed any greater than 165-170, of course she was extremely petite.

    Maybe the role of genes aren’t as important as observation of behaviors, but I think it’s an overstatement to say that genes are never even considered.

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  54. omg, and I need a mate who doesn’t have trouble with subject-verb agreement, since I just messed it up in my last post!

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  55. [The credit for the phrase goes to GBFM. I liked it so I appropriated it.]

    We have more than enough catch phrases already, I would be happy if this one died a swift and painless death because I find it personally repulsive.

    [How about ‘younger, hotter, inelastic’?]

    Ha ha… obviously you enjoy being gross! Maybe I need to increase my level of assholeness…

    Like


  56. The 30 year old at 560 pounds that just walked into my office wincing in pain from “being old” and not from “I’m a digusting fat fuck” is the type of gene-enviro combo that dooms our civilization. Sadly, slugs like him are what populates “middle America”.

    Like


  57. anyone who says looks aren’t important for guys is full of shit. girls are as shallow as guys. take a guy who is ugly, teach him game, and watch him fucking fail.

    Like


  58. “anyone who says looks aren’t important for guys is full of shit.”

    Not necessarily. George Clooney without a shirt in Up in the Air was quite scrawny, almost vomit-inducing scrawny to my eyes, rendering his great facial features nearly meaningless. Looks aren’t nearly as important for girls because girls don’t salivate simply by looking at men who are visually appealing. And that is why men who can be nice to look at can easily blow it if they say too much of the wrong thing.

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  59. HalfSigma and OneStdv are more likely to mention computer games and programming than picking-up women.

    I appreciate the mention, but it’s not at an accurate portrayal of my content.

    I don’t recall having even one post about computer games (never played one seriously). Yet I’ve had a number of posts with positive discussion of Game (http://onestdv.blogspot.com/search/label/Game).

    [For the record, I’m a believer in Game and even more so a believer in the sexual evo psych from which Game derives and Roissy has elucidated fastidiously with this blog.]

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  60. I never thought of game as its own status but I think you might be right.

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  61. Just something to consider… The human genome has about 30k codons that code for proteins and other components that facilitate the biologic functions. A tad short to explain the complexity of a man (let alone a woman with her army of hamsters!). The current theory is that the “junk DNA” is another layer that uses the primary codons as keys for encoding other stuff that is not specifically assigned to bio functions. Then there are the RNA markers (that may or may not be related to “junk DNA” palimpsest) that are short segments that entangle the DNA strands seemingly randomly. The speculation presently goes that it may be that they provide another layer, that is not particularly stable, but can be transferred, in some capacity, to the offspring (e.g. positioning of these short snippets may have some specific meaning). The positions, length and quantity of these RNA markers can change throughout one’s life, dependent on different stressors. A complex interplay of determining factors and stressors that reflect our life experience is what we are.

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  62. I’m with Roissy on this one. There is a subset of HBD folks who for whatever reason refuse to see what makes women tick. My guess is to hold to a romantic view of society that faded away fifty years ago. But worked for most beta men.

    As for HBD viewing differences, well different is not “better.” Which is the master leopard, the clouded, the African, or the Snow Leopard? About all you can say is that they are different, and adapted to their environment, and that we lose biological diversity if we lose one of them, their genes may have unique adaptations valuable in bio-medicine or other applications.

    IQ variances within populations are so well established it is like an iron law. Blacks have the lowest mean IQ, NE Asians and Ashkenazi Jews the highest, with Whites following, then Hispanics.

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  63. whatever happened to Zeets the Throwback Barbarian?

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  64. jim

    anyone who says looks aren’t important for guys is full of shit. girls are as shallow as guys. take a guy who is ugly, teach him game, and watch him fucking fail.

    You’re on. I have this omega neighbor (40). He is a good guy. Just totally inept with women, has never been with one. He is also falling into the ugly category. He acquired a while ago a nasty burn on his face, which does not make him any more non-ugly.

    I’ll take him under my auspices and report in a year.

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  65. Apparently I have been placed on moderation (probation?) at Dana’s blog. This is a first for me.

    Something must be done about this.

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  66. Morsel:

    Bhetti nails it. 🙂

    The only thing Bhetti “nails” is a cross with the body of our Lord Jesus Christ laid upon it. (PBUH)

    Oh wait, that was the Jews. D’oh!

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  67. Editor: Remove the safety net of the welfare state and let’s see how “fit” all those losers pumping out broods of parasites remain

    Remove the social safety nets of bloated socialist oligarchies and in two generations 90% of humanity is comprised of smart men and beautiful women.

    Like


  68. Whilst “younger” and “hotter” are general descriptive terms referring to a woman closer to her sexual prime, “tighter” I just find not only superfluous but quite gross.

    I always took tighter to refer to the taughtness of a younger woman’s skin, not a reference to an unstretched vagina. The former is not gross at all.

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  69. “A 5 or a 6 sure, but even a 7 (the threshold of true beauty) who is a great girl and who truly loves you? From what I have seen, these men have few regrets.”

    Marry a real bisexual. That’s all I gotta say.

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  70. Man is polygamous, woman is hypergamous. That’s one key element of human biodiversity, and of course the foundation-stone of Game.

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  71. the HBD movement seems primarily occupied with fighting progressives over things like affirmative action and immigration. saying that HBD brings balance is like saying that the bloods brought balance to south central LA by countering the dominance of the crips. technically, it’s true, but neither side is in the right.

    I second this from j d, and also zdeno’s point about a certain amount of blank-slatism in the game community. Also this from Junior Gorilla:

    PUA/Game has little to do with HBD. The fallacy here is that because there clearly exists biological and psychological differences between the two sexes that most people operate in ignorance of, then there exists well defined racial populations with significantly different distributions of a well defined IQ. But the link isn’t there and the evidence for the second isn’t.

    Genetic differences between the races are miniscule, and are mostly offset by the bell-curve of attributes *within* each racial group. Nurture (education, health, societal values, etc.) play a much greater role in how any given individual turns out. It may be true that the claim that the nurture predominates has morphed into the claim that genes don’t matter. But in my mind, at least based on the few HBD sites I’ve looked at, countering that is undermined by the sort of political agenda identified by j d. Maybe this is a topic that ought to migrate from the polemical blogosphere into serious academic studies. but given the politics of academia and government on this subject, that doesn’t seem too likely.

    Of course, ultimately it’s not really an either/or proposition:

    No evolutionary scientist worth his salt would argue that genes are wholly deterministic, or that the environment plays no role in shaping who we are.

    .. nature and nurture both play important roles in race/culture differences, and both are sufficiently complex that there will never be a grand unified theory to definitively say which is which.

    I took AHE’s original comment to be something like a quip, a passing observation with a kernel of truth, not a deeply considered statement on the nature of PUA or HBD. So I also was a little surprised that you built a whole post on that comment. It was good post and an interesting topic, but not really fair to AHE to lump him in with the haters or doubters, however defined.

    Finally- I am pleasantly surprised that this thread hasn’t turned into an ugly race-flame-fest. Yet. The Kraken must be on vacation or something.

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  72. maurice: “Genetic differences between the races are miniscule”

    Genetic differences among the breeds of dog are also miniscule, but have big effects. Of all the mammal species, the two with the greatest amount of variation (or biodiversity) among sub-populations are dogs and humans.

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  73. Finally- I am pleasantly surprised that this thread hasn’t turned into an ugly race-flame-fest.

    “pleasantly surprised”???….

    ….or….

    gobsmackingly forsaken???

    SNAP INTO A SLIM JIM YOU PUSSY!

    The Kraken must be on vacation or something.

    He’s still busy gnawing on some righteous BBQ chicken bones. Give it time.

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  74. on September 25, 2010 at 3:00 am Gunslingergregi

    Its always some non white bitch keeping it real with me anyway.

    I prob need to check out some spanish/latin type woman.

    Like


  75. @tupac- the former. I had my fill of race threads on this blog last year, during the “Obsidian wars” as dana called them. They’re always the same, all heat no light, so I usually just ignore them. I used to like Obsidian’s game posts, I thought he had useful stuff to say, and I always defended him on this board against race-baiting, until he went over to the dark side (heh) and became a champion race-baiter himself.

    in fact, that’s what happens when you mix discussion of game and HBD on the same board: the ideas split apart like oil and water, because the interest in each is rooted in two different communities. PUA is populated by mainly by dudes trying to understand and fuck women, so it’s a secular, pragmatic, amoral, even somewhat nihilist perspective much of the time. Whereas HBD, in my limited knowledge, is written by a bunch of ideological paleocons pining for an idealized version of past Western civilization. Their (perfectly correct) preference for the social and political supremacy of European civilization explains the race-talk (a non-sequitur, in my view; non-whites universally and easily adapt to Western values, usually after exactly two generations in the case of immigrant communities. Those exceptions, like the ghetto underclass in the U.S., have mainly intractable social and political causes, not racial ones). Whereas their obsession with “virtue” and “values” leads them to both diss Game and cluelessly pedestalize women. In both cases it comes from an almost fetishized traditionalism which is actually at odds with the West’s true nature since at least the industrial revolution: dynamic, individualist, capitalist, open, self-reinventing, easily absorbing and incorporating the best elements of every other part of the world.

    @harmonious jim- perhaps true in the case of actual genes, I can’t say. But you don’t see it in the expression of them, do you? You don’t see anything like the difference between a chihuahua and a great dane in human populations, now, do you? as well as all the other differences in body and face shapes that domesticated dogs have.

    Just imagine how cool it would be if there were that much difference among people, though? Imagine being a chihuahua dude siding up to great dane tits, or …er, well, without getting too graphic, the possibilities are endless. There’s a good erotic sci-fi novel in that idea.

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  76. on September 25, 2010 at 3:35 am Gunslingergregi

    I think jew talk is much more important since they are the ones that explicitly state that they can lie cheat steal and kill non jews with a clear consciounse.

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  77. Whereas their obsession with “virtue” and “values” leads them to both diss Game and cluelessly pedestalize women.

    I’ll make note of this diss against Clio, mister.

    Don’t make me angry, Maurice. You wouldn’t like me when I’m angry,

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  78. on September 25, 2010 at 3:39 am Gunslingergregi

    And since no jew stepped forward to tell me I am wrong when any other time jews are criticized there is always a response of anti semitism than I am going to have to take the silence as it is true.

    No jews cry anti-semitism but yet are completely anti everyone else.

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  79. Gunny:

    I think jew talk is much more important since they are the ones that explicitly state that they can lie cheat steal and kill non jews with a clear consciounse.

    Like


  80. @tupac- ha, present company excepted, Bill Bixby. your e-obsession with Clio was specific to her magnificent self, though, not a pedestalizing of females in aggregate. I think you know what I meant. And as you no doubt saw earlier this year, I too was infected with Tupac disease. A kind of madness which is a pleasure to experience and a drag to recover from.

    What happened to Clio, by the way? She seems to have abandoned her blog at the end of last year. A shame. Her last appearance in the community, as far as I know, was her quote in the Charlotte Allen piece last March, or whenever it was. Probably married by now.

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  81. It’s dangerous to rely on one person, one school of thought, one area to have the whole story.

    The main value of HBD to me, was that there were actually differences between the races. Like “The Game” by Neil Strauss, HBD woke me from a liberal, equality slumber.

    I’m grateful for what I’ve learned that even you, Roissy, are afraid to say. It showed me what is real, and what is not.

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  82. on September 25, 2010 at 4:24 am Gunslingergregi

    Just like bush payed 20 billion over 4 years and created a heck of a lot of real jobs.

    What has happened to a trillion dollars lol

    Like


  83. she popped up briefly at the 2B send off, but like the angel she is, promptly dematerialized into the aether, never to be heard from again. sniff.

    Probably married by now.

    DAMN YOU. NEVER SPEAK OF THIS AGAIN

    I’m still getting over Cannon’s departure from this cyber coil.

    Like


  84. on September 25, 2010 at 4:27 am Gunslingergregi

    I’d say ask the jews whats up they the ones concentrated in nyc with the funny hair.

    Peacocking?

    I think so.

    Like


  85. on September 25, 2010 at 4:33 am Gunslingergregi

    cannon have you been mimicking him?

    I thought lurker died.

    Like


  86. just like a man with a good iq isn’t born with the knowledge of engineering, but has to spend decades studying, a man with good genes has to learn how to show the goodness of his genes.

    If he can, he has good enough genes

    Like


  87. i still see Cannon’s posts here every week. Unless it’s an imitator.

    Sorry to have poked a sore spot. I won’t do it again. You know the cure for oneitis, though… so, chop chop.

    Like


  88. i appear then disappear with the REALTALK like a genie

    AHE = all hebrew enterprises

    fix your lives; this ‘post’ did not deserve so much as a hat-tip to such a horned imp. fiat bullshit: i earned my front page mentions back in the good ol’ days.

    mischief, MISCHIEF!

    Like


  89. on September 25, 2010 at 4:56 am Gunslingergregi

    Yea over at the spearhead they are talking of the muslim take over of world. I got to say better than the jew he he he

    I can hang with stoning and lopping off heads. No big deal.

    Like


  90. on September 25, 2010 at 4:57 am Gunslingergregi

    Right now if I want to give up I can just throw some drugs into an airport it is a nice comfy feeling.

    Like


  91. ah, that sweeney todd brings back some cherished memories. you don’t even KNOW.

    no homo

    Like


  92. fiat bullshit: i earned my front page mentions back in the good ol’ days.

    I gave up looking for the “Holy Shit, Doug’s a fucking faggot” post, apparently that thread was washed away in the Great Cleansing.

    But I remember…and lolled.

    Like


  93. thanks man. i’ll be back down south again someday and will try to pass the sniff test. much homo… just no HOMOSEXUAL, obviously

    Like


  94. on September 25, 2010 at 5:16 am Gunslingergregi

    God dam I need to learn how to check ips.

    Cannon is that you?

    he he he

    But yea I guess jew thing is highly accurate interesting shit.

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  95. hm. a thought arises. Cannon and Tupac- one and the same? The likelihood of two different dudes, in NYC and Miami, reading the same thread at the same time in the wee hours, and posting in nearly the exact same style.. quite low.

    Like


  96. on September 25, 2010 at 5:27 am Gunslingergregi

    scary I think I have interacting with one entity the whole time oh well.

    Its been fun.

    Like


  97. gregi, here’s a brief code-phrase so you’ll know it’s me:

    unless your BUY AND HOLD ERECTION involves commodities that are magically also paying dividends, abandon all equities at all costs immediately. if your commodity funds somehow pay out, lynch the traitor at the top of that pyramid, for he is surely related to “AHE”. if you insist on following through with your ‘Keynes-Fisher Macroeconomics’ education, build a “recession” bundle… after metals: corn, milk, rabbit-pelts… all the real shit. PORK BELLIES FTW!!! HYPERINFLATION-PROOF!

    Like


  98. on September 25, 2010 at 5:39 am Gunslingergregi

    Yea I got a fallback through woman that includes rice worse case scenerio at least you can eat it he he he

    Like


  99. maurice, tupac is more bio-med knowledgeable than me. i don’t know what he thinks i might trump him at: hopefully something (that is not hip hop trivia). i am really rooting for your boy vinnie chase to die during the last six episodes of Entourage next summer. it would totally redeem the lame SITC-style series, and also i would think about you being totally pissed.

    matter of fact, i’m gonna speak to ‘dana’ (gordon??) about this and see if she can broker a little deal about it.

    Like


  100. on September 25, 2010 at 5:52 am Gunslingergregi

    I have already learned I can beat goldman sachs workers starting late no college and a couple years of work at less than 20 dollars an hour.

    So really yea umm I kind of feel bad for them.

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  101. on September 25, 2010 at 5:55 am Gunslingergregi

    Then my undeducated woman beats me at the shit.

    She prob just feels bad for me and took me under her wing.

    While at same time I am willing to learn.

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  102. I have already learned I can beat goldman sachs workers starting late no college and a couple years of work at less than 20 dollars an hour.

    So really yea umm I kind of feel bad for them.

    oh yeah? well WHAT’S THE PASSWORD, GOY?

    Like


  103. I’ve always been under the impression that Cannon’s nom de guerre was based on a, uh, portly fellow.

    Kinda looks like my boy CSH so it’s all good. (godammn jews)

    But whatevs — I’m sure his deadlifts and squats have done much to maintain his girlish figure.

    Do they still make Husky jeans?

    Like


  104. on September 25, 2010 at 6:37 am Gunslingergregi

    the dam jews and everyone else lets hope an astroid hits so we can stop pretending anything matters.

    he he he

    Like


  105. @cannon- i am more of an e than a vinnie type. but you knew that. it would be a drastic departure, and kinda funny, for such a fluffy show to turn dark like that. but you drastically overestimate my entourage love. i remember defending the show as enjoyable entertainment in a thread last year- sort of a fantasy SITC thing for guys in hollywood, nothing more. and yet every time you jibe at me as though i thought it’s the holy grail of TV shows. sheesh.

    @tupac- i remember that show! a blast from childhood. there were a bunch of those detective shows: kojak, mannix, barnaby jones, etc. each a different type: the fat guy, the bald guy, the old guy, etc. “ironsides” – guy in a wheelchair. i doubt that’s cannon’s namesake though.

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  106. I thought “the god of biomechanics” was a clever reference to Blade Runner:

    Like


  107. “Apparently I have been placed on moderation (probation?) at Dana’s blog. This is a first for me.”

    nope–tho several of your comments and maurices went to mod w/o my say so

    Like


  108. stop typing comments that will get me put under a bush in the yard though — ty

    Like


  109. “On a side note, betas having more kids than alphas is not necessarily evidence that they are better with women.”

    Ultimately, having kids is the only metric that really counts. If life were just about maximizing pleasure, I would stay single, buy some land, grow poppies, and spend the rest of my life consuming home-grown opiates and jacking off to internet porn.

    “Instead, all it could mean is that the betas are finally getting their shot at aging pussy after the alphas have had their fill of that same pussy when it was younger, hotter, tighter and uninterested in baby-making. ”

    That’s probably true, but so what? Let’s suppose you have a choice between (1) spending 20 years f*cking a string of 100 young hotties, none of whom wants or will have children with you; or (2) spending 20 years f*cking just one woman who rode the alpha carousel until age 25 and wants to marry you and give you children.

    I would definitely choose the second option. Reproduction is what it’s all about.

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  110. When the scales fall off your eyes and you see the true nature of women, it makes it easier to see the true nature of blacks, whites, Jews and Asians.

    Similarly, when the scales fall off your eyes and you see, for example, the true nature of blacks, whites, Jews and Asians, it makes it a lot easier to see the nature of women.

    Nice to see you finally discuss HBD and game. You have big balls to do this; you know that the enemies of truth will attempt to block any major publishing deal once you cross the Rubicon. Of course, cross the Jewbicon and you’ve really done it.

    Like


  111. from now on when anyone makes me mad it will be referred to as “crossing the Jewbicon”

    Like


  112. “HBD thus brings balance to the force by revealing the ugly truth that genes account for a lot more of who we are than is currently acknowledged by our ruling class cognoscenti.”

    The ruling class is actually a strong proponent of genes making a person. Why do you think that the top classes have debutante balls (something Fussell forgot to mention in his class book) and an obsession with pedigrees? Fussell also illustrated that class is determined by one’s bearing and deportment, beliefs,style, taste, and values determine class. Notice how all of the criteria listed are determined by one’s early environment and inherent qualities. One’s education (Fussell also forgot to mention English and Swiss boarding schools…) and professional prestige also matter. A Posh Paulie (i.e., someone who went to St.Paul’s) Eli Bonesman (such as John Kerry) already have an overwhelming advantage over an average man. As far as alpha males go I project that John Kerry is approximately in the 99.999th %ile in alpha maleness. After all, he is married to a ketchup heiress and has family roots dating back to the 17th century, and shares said common ancestor with Richard Gere.

    Because women date down and men date up I will advise people here to wait until they have been promoted through the ranks before considering marriage. This is a tricky game in itself because there is discrimination against singles in the work place. A person should still nevertheless have professional and status ambitions to maximize the number of women who are “below” him.

    Like


  113. *Because women date up and men date date I will advise people here to wait until they have been promoted through the ranks before considering marriage. This is a tricky game in itself because there is discrimination against singles in the work place. A man should still nevertheless have professional and status ambitions to maximize the number of women who are “below” him.

    Like


  114. hm. a thought arises. Cannon and Tupac- one and the same?

    Could be? they have their difference in style though. Cannon is crisp, Tupac is wild. Cannon is drunk apollonian, Tupac is focused dionysian.

    But they’re a bit like that Queen song “Under Pressure” — Cannon is David Bowie, Tupac is Freddy Mercury.

    No homo, of course.

    Like


  115. “I think jew talk is much more important since they are the ones that explicitly state that they can lie cheat steal and kill non jews with a clear consciounse.”

    When and where did you hear that? Israel actually has the most moral foreign policy in the world. They even drop leaflets to warn Palestinian civilians before attacking, have built hospitals and schools for the Palestinians, made major advances in medical, pharmaceutical, and computer technology, and has the second most companies traded on Wall ST behind the USA.

    Also, the above should say: “Men date down, women date up.” Remember that. A custodian should not expect to date supermodels, or even average women while a CEO is in high demand and women hit on him. Women compete for accomplished, successful men while men aggressively compete for women.

    Like


  116. One think that’ll make game worthless in the coming years are the number of women who have fluff college degrees and no way of finding a job because of it. If they wise up and find men who are suitable providers, game will only be useful for the remaining women who can live on their own. Which will dwindle down as more women find out the hard way the the lie they bought into isn’t their salvation.

    Like


  117. jay m

    white supremacists found 3 lines in the, what, 12 volume talmud that said something about it being ok to cheat, lie and steal from the goyim and they now believe those are the main tenets of rabbinic judaism

    Like


  118. “anyone who says looks aren’t important for guys is full of shit. girls are as shallow as guys. take a guy who is ugly, teach him game, and watch him fucking fail.”

    Looks aren’t as important for women than for men. Women are shallow in other ways, such as where a guy went to college, their family background, career, and remuneration. A man could be short, skinny, and have unattractive features, but still be very popular with women if he has the personality, prestige, and ambition.

    Evolutionarily speaking, not everyone is handsome because men have decided to develop their character and competence, which women found attractive. People without natural beauty thus make themselves more competitive and are thus represented better in the evolutionary stream. Women find power and intelligence to be sexy, and there are evolutionary reasons for this.

    Like


  119. “I think jew talk is much more important since they are the ones that explicitly state that they can lie cheat steal and kill non jews with a clear consciounse.”

    They do? Where? Someone forgot to let me in on all the cool stuff.

    Like


  120. Xontrarian

    When the scales fall off your eyes and you see the true nature of women, it makes it easier to see the true nature of blacks, whites, Jews and Asians.

    Similarly, when the scales fall off your eyes and you see, for example, the true nature of blacks, whites, Jews and Asians, it makes it a lot easier to see the nature of women.

    Deep, man. Almost like Hermes Trimegistus… As above, so below. And as below, so above. Or something such. Almost a road map.

    Though, would you be so kind… I think I am getting lost in loops… and elucidate what are these particular true natures for every group you’ve mentioned?

    Like


  121. Dana, not “crossing the Jewbitchon”? 🙂

    Like


  122. Italics off before “Deep”. Uhgm.

    Like


  123. on September 25, 2010 at 9:51 am Gunslingergregi

    ””””’Original JB
    “I think jew talk is much more important since they are the ones that explicitly state that they can lie cheat steal and kill non jews with a clear consciounse.”

    They do? Where? Someone forgot to let me in on all the cool stuff.
    ””””’

    I’ll let you know when I ask them.

    Like


  124. on September 25, 2010 at 9:55 am Gunslingergregi

    ”””””dana
    jay m

    white supremacists found 3 lines in the, what, 12 volume talmud that said something about it being ok to cheat, lie and steal from the goyim and they now believe those are the main tenets of rabbinic judaism
    ””””””

    So they are in there just like ragu.

    cool.

    Like


  125. on September 25, 2010 at 10:01 am Gunslingergregi

    ””””Also, the above should say: “Men date down, women date up.” Remember that. A custodian should not expect to date supermodels, or even average women while a CEO is in high demand and women hit on him. Women compete for accomplished, successful men while men aggressively compete for women.”””’

    Should not expect or couldn’t.

    He could certainly fuck hot woman.

    Like


  126. on September 25, 2010 at 10:03 am Gunslingergregi

    ””””””That’s probably true, but so what? Let’s suppose you have a choice between (1) spending 20 years f*cking a string of 100 young hotties, none of whom wants or will have children with you; or (2) spending 20 years f*cking just one woman who rode the alpha carousel until age 25 and wants to marry you and give you children.

    I would definitely choose the second option. Reproduction is what it’s all about.
    ”””””

    That is the choice men have been led to believe they have but really men can do what the fuck they want. Nobody gives them shit they don’t owe anyone shit and they can have a hell of a lot more than a 100 hotties and also have kids at the same time. he he he

    Like


  127. Sometimes I feel like I’m trying to land a sailfish with lake-trout tackle.

    Like


  128. Facebook game question:

    Girl posts that she is feeling sick. Is this a potential shit test?

    Even if not an intentional shit test, I think sending some beta “hope you feel better” message would have the same effect as failing a shit test. You could post something callous or call her out for being a baby, but I think the best move is to ignore the post altogether. Acknowledging facebook use is probably a failed shit test in itself.

    Anyone disagree with the general rule that you shouldn’t acknowledge facebook use?

    Like


  129. on September 25, 2010 at 10:36 am Professor Woland

    Women are after two things in men; physical attractiveness and social status. Nothing else counts.

    Social Status can mean many things, wealth, income, money, power, fame, humor, education, or GAME.

    All of those things have something in common. They are tied in one way shape or other to IQ. Even inherited title / power is generated from ancestors (IQ is hereditary) signals intelligence.

    While something I was never particularly good at, game is a PROXY for high verbal IQ (the part of IQ most tied to wealth) Like humor, game is something the stupid should refrain from. Or to quote an old joke, “better to keep your mouth shut and have them think you are stupid then to open it and remove all doubt.” Women like intelligent men because they want intelligent children.

    Lastly, don’t confuse getting laid with reproductive success. 100 years from now someone’s genes will be gaming somebody else’s genes, and it won’t be the guys who failed to replicate.

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  130. Prof. Woland,

    I agree with you generally, but I think there is another element to female psychology that is being ignored. Girls do not select guys in a free market dating economy. Many do not ever place themselves in an environment where they meet strangers. Many girls make choices based on insecurity, desire for being in a “relationship” for its own sake, their proximity and exposure to certain, familiar men.

    There are a ton of hot college girls with hometown boyfriends of significantly lower dating value. Many end up moving on, but a significant percentage don’t. The psychological neediness of women greatly influences their relationship choices.

    The other thing women can do is to delude their conscious mind into thinking that they are not attracted to any men except their boyfriend, no matter how pathetic the boyfriend is. And its often not a function of “love” but a function of this neediness, insecurity and fear. The relationship acts as a sort of self-validation.

    Like


  131. why is dana so obsessed with race?

    Armchair psychologists discuss amongst yourselves.

    Like


  132. Game is not status in itself. It is a proxy for status. In order to support the point, the editor takes such broad definition of game that I think he really means verbal intelligence. But game’s very nature is to serve as a proxy for other substantive attractive traits in a male, and it can be many things:

    – high verbal intelligence
    – identification of high social class
    – male independence/confidence/initiative
    – desirability to other females
    – social appropriateness/dominance

    The list can go on and on, but in every example, game is a proxy for some quality, not a quality in itself. I think what the editor means is that high verbal intelligence/social dominance is status in itself, and I wouldn’t disagree with that. But we’re really straining the definition of our terms if we’re using the term “game” to mean a substantive trait. Maybe I’m missing his point here.

    Like


  133. I’d like your thoughts on a recent date I had.

    We were introduced through family. We went on one date and it went well. Started 10 PM and didn’t end until 530AM.
    Conversation was free and easy and I escalated slowly throughout the evening, although I didn’t push hard enough. When I needed to demonstrate value I did. When I told her to follow she obeyed. I dropped some good negs. I had problems with my ATM card but she had no problem paying until I straightened them out (we visited 4-5 venues) without a fuss. We said our goodbyes.

    The second date is the one I’d like you to comment on. It was the next day and I called her and invited her out for drinks. She told me she’d call me after dinner and kept her word. She sounded surprised to hear from me so soon but didn’t hem or haw and we met within a half hour. This time we found a pool hall and I displayed my superiority while gently negging her.

    HER: Am I really the worst pool player you’ve ever seen?

    ME: It’s kind of tough to call. I knew this blind guy who
    liked to play…

    She liked that one.

    We moved to a lounge which had couches and single chairs. I guided her to a loveseat and she didn’t protest.
    I spread out alpha style and put my arm up on the back, almost around her. We chatted for a while, light touching, teasing. She went to the bathroom and this is when the shit test started. I hadn’t had a real one so far that night or on the first date.

    I noticed that after she returned from the bathroom another button on her shirt was undone and her hair was a little more tousled than before. She began by complementing my overall physique, but she then started to ask why I wore my clothes a little more loosely than usual. I told her it was for comfort. She told me she couldn’t tell whether or not I was in shape. As I was wearing a polo and an undershirt she said she could better
    judge if I removed the polo.

    Let me say that a year ago I might have complied to a request like this without hesitating, but after some game research and restoring my manly dignity, I do not perform for women, nor do I give something for nothing. Nor would I be embarassed about what she would see. I don’t have a six pack but I’m tall, lean, with wide shoulders and v-shaped back.

    I decided to see if she would put her money where her mouth was and told her if she wanted it she would have to kiss me. She said no. Right then I knew it was about control. If she had wanted an excuse to escalate she had it. I reframed by teasing her she didn’t impress me with her sales skills (she’s in sales). That bought me time to pay
    and walk her out of the bar and home. It was about a forty minute walk. We had a good convo pretending to bargain over the price to see me without the outershirt.

    Halfway to her place I asked her if she could do me a favor. I took off my jacket and tossed it to her. “Can you hold this for me? I’m warm.” The smile on her face was priceless. She thought she was about to get what she wanted. A few minutes later when handing me back the jacket, she made an attempt to lift up my shirt. I gently stopped her hands and feigned disappointment that she would resort to trickery. The rest of the walk home I kept about half a step ahead.

    As we reached her door I slowed but didn’t stop and said my goodbyes as I turned to continue home. She looked stunned that I didn’t hug her or peck her on the cheek. It was cordial but minimal with no contact.

    As I walked away I was proud of myself for not selling out to desperation. My gut told me following an order for her would have spelled doom, but I know I missed an opportunity somewhere. Would she say yes to another date?

    Appreciated,
    Shaft

    Like


  134. on September 25, 2010 at 11:17 am Gunslingergregi

    The thing we are led to believe is that somehow bitches that have a good job and went to school for long period of time is who men should be going for.

    Fuck no.

    Like


  135. on September 25, 2010 at 11:18 am Gunslingergregi

    Have fun with em on a blog but what do you think life would really be like with her hunched over a computer all day lol

    Like


  136. @Gx1080

    Blacks have more testorone because of slavery. Basically the biggest and strongest were bred over and over again..

    Like


  137. I was shit tested in an industrial lab today.

    hottie-virgin “I think I might move to Jogja after I finish school”

    me “oh”
    30 minutes later, eating dinner at a roadside stall with h.v. and her housemate “I think think I might fly to Batam next week”
    h.v. “Why, do you want to go away?”
    with a sigh “No, I don’t. I just need to get out of town for a while to clear my head. You drive me crazy!”

    Later that night she posted pictures of us together on FB, hinted at falling in love, and told me that she misses me all the time.

    This girl is a pro shit tester – I swear. Keeping hand with her is a struggle. Because truth be told, she does drive me nuts.

    Anyone who wants to learn the gentle art of push pull should study under this chick.

    Some lines I used to show interest and keep her rewarded for her infatuations:

    When she posted pics:
    me:makes me warm. good girl then. (reward)
    ..
    me :you seem so happy with that man (re-enforcing her positive feelings and make them public)
    ..
    me :except when you are far – then saddd (re-enforcing her infatuation)
    h.v. i have apic where u look cool. u in bedroom
    me:with no shirt? (trying to associate me with sex)
    ..
    me:you can print it and keep beside your bed then.
    ..
    me:except maybe not – because your dorm mother will see you with a half naked man in your room
    ..
    me: she will spank you (i said spank!)
    ..
    me: actually, it should only be my job to spank you (anchoring sex and my authority over her)
    h.v. u always spank to me. i always happy if i with u
    me: That’s good. strong magnet.
    ..
    ..
    me:ha ha. good. slowly i steal you.
    ..
    me:hold your necklace if you miss me
    h.v. yes i always miss u (!!!!!)
    ..
    h.v. dont forget for pray before sleepy
    me: ok. i will pray you fall in love more every day . ha ha.
    h.v. hahaha..yes good (!!!!!)

    And at the beginning of today’s date all indications were that she was shifting it platonic.

    She said I had inner beauty in the pics with her. This is what I was trying to talk about what a friend of mine taught me, the way he gazed at women. It was like he lit up with 2 E tabs every time he looked into a pretty girls eyes. As if the two of them were already in love. My inner beauty is that my heart is very happy when with her, and together we both glow. People like to laugh and enjoy life – so that kind of warmth and love in the heart can be infectious.

    Love at first sight can be a frame. You build on it, step by step, of course. But you project interest, control, amused mastery, fun. No aloofness – god no, not aloofness. You assume a sale – above is what what I’m selling. That every day she will fall more and more in love with me.

    Like


  138. “Deep, man. Almost like Hermes Trimegistus… As above, so below. And as below, so above. Or something such. Almost a road map.”

    For the record “Hermes” is pronounced AIR-mez.

    “Even inherited title / power is generated from ancestors (IQ is hereditary) signals intelligence.”

    I will admit that peers and royals are attractive (after all, who would not want to practice “eugenics” with the princess of Sweden?) and have a certain je ne sais quoi, but if a princess weighed 300 pounds I wouldn’t want to date her, even if she had an IQ of 300 (which is impossible, since many tests have a ceiling of 155, but for all intense and purposes…) Manners, fashion sense, bearing, deportment, and intelligence help contribute to making a lady attractive in addition to height, weight, and physical features.

    Also, Ivan the Terrible had a mentally disabled son, and Lord Monckton denies global warming. I think that Eton and Oxbridge play a greater role in Peers and Royals’ intelligence than genes. Still, such artificially created divisions were simply created as an excuse to justify oppressing others.

    “Anyone disagree with the general rule that you shouldn’t acknowledge facebook use?”

    I no longer use Facebook, since they have certain restrictions and even will not allow someone to send a friend requests if they added a certain number of people within a certain time. Facebook is not the site it used to be, and it is simply better to e-mail the people a person knows for face to face conversations.

    Like


  139. I am suspicious that betas have more children than alphas ONLY thanks to birth control and DNA testing. Women probably have more sex with alphas than they do with betas, but prefer to have children with men who are predisposed to provide marriage and support. They still secretly have children with alphas sometimes, and would do that more frequently if it were not so easy to expose.

    Just my own theory. I could easily be wrong.

    Like


  140. TG, oh no you di’int.

    Guns, you’re right. I think the girls are more programmed to believe this than men and/or they’re projecting their desires towards successful males.

    But if my personal life experience has taught me anything (which is obviously very little), it is that the intellectual connection is very important. Sometimes this blog gives the impression that we should all strive to bang the hottest girls possible. That’s great, but for LTR and M, you’ve got to have a connection, IMO.

    Like


  141. obsessed with race on a partially HBD inspired blog full of people from the HBD-o-sphere? yeh thats weird–ill make comments about knitting instead

    Like


  142. on September 25, 2010 at 11:37 am Gunslingergregi

    ”””’it is that the intellectual connection is very important”””

    for what?

    Like


  143. >On a side note, betas having more kids than alphas is not necessarily evidence that they are better with women.
    But it is encouraging for society.

    Like


  144. on September 25, 2010 at 11:38 am Gunslingergregi

    liberal arts chicks know how to do one thing well spend the mans money.

    I’ll give em that.

    Like


  145. Guns, for enjoying the 95% of time together that you aren’t having sex.

    Like


  146. I find it useful to think of game as creating value for women. This is a simplification since it ignores the greater likelihood (compared to other ways of creating value for women) of a woman *ahem* creating value for you in response, but it does address the fallacy of thinking of game primarily as “tricking” women. It is not. It is primarily a skill that makes them happy. Yes, it can be used for hedonistic pursuits that go nowhere, but in my opinion the more interesting applications lie in enhancing LTRs (and getting into an acceptable LTR in the first place).

    Like


  147. David

    Ha ha… obviously you enjoy being gross! Maybe I need to increase my level of assholeness…

    David, if you think that tight pussy is gross, you’ve never chowed down on flabby folds.

    Like


  148. # of children is a handy metric with alphness because women will ALWAYS want to bear children with alphas. a 21 y/o girl dating a 38 y/o alpha will want his children… badly.

    alpha life story involves multiple wives, each bearing his children, with 10-20 years age difference between the successive wives. the screeching hag starter wife, followed by scandalously younger successors. the inevitable lifetime of conflict arises between discarded exes and their hotter successors…. par for the course alpha life drama.

    Like


  149. Game isn’t just displaying fitness through verbal fluency. It displays experience, because women are initially opaque to men. It takes dozens and dozens and a few dozen more to get any sort of handle on them.

    So if you can game a girl, it means you’ve already gamed a lot of girls. Fit.

    Like


  150. “The other thing women can do is to delude their conscious mind into thinking that they are not attracted to any men except their boyfriend, no matter how pathetic the boyfriend is. And its often not a function of “love” but a function of this neediness, insecurity and fear. The relationship acts as a sort of self-validation.”

    You actually sound worse than a girl. What are you going to say next, maybe these girls do “love” their boyfriends but aren’t “in love” with them. Yeah, women can be needy. As much as I dislike certain social activities, I wouldn’t want to live alone with no human contact for prolonged periods of time. As far as mate selection in females, you’ve been here reading long enough. Just how long do you think females have to pick a “perfect” guy? The Universe is billions of years old, humans live mere decades, logistically, at some point you have to make a choice. You can have faith in your choices, or second guess yourself to an IVF lab. I think the level of game required by some women is a function of indecisiveness that plaques more feeble-minded females. They need regular affirmation that they made the right choice because they’re incapable of any sort of self-assessment of their choices.

    Like


  151. Game is like creating 3D movies… if you can manipulate 2D images such that they look 3d to us (through an understanding of vision mechanics (binocular vision, contrast sensitivity, mental object modeling) then its basically the same thing to the observer as a real 3d object… We may be wired to see real solid objects with depth, however that doesn’t mean we can’t see manipulated flat objects as having depth as well…. exploitation of mechanics…

    Like


  152. Name, I don’t disagree with anything in your post. Not sure why you think we’re saying something different. I know i’m painting with a broad brush, but I don’t mean to imply that girls never love their boyfriends, or are not in love with them or whatever. Only that there is a difference between a true loving relationship and one based on co-dependence and neediness, which is also quite common with women. And men can definitely be needy as well. I’m just making the point, and I think you support it well, that the dating market is more complex than women looking for the best looking and most successful male. Hell, my girlfriend wasted her entire college years with me and I was a loser! Luckily we dodged the marriage bullet, but it was close. It was the next thing to do on the list. A lot of girls are too afraid and insecure to take that step into the unknown however and settle for what they have.

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  153. Duxbury,

    alpha life story involves multiple wives, each bearing his children, with 10-20 years age difference between the successive wives. the screeching hag starter wife, followed by scandalously younger successors. the inevitable lifetime of conflict arises between discarded exes and their hotter successors…. par for the course alpha life drama.

    It is kind of funny. When my first marriage ended, I sort of accepted the general meme that I failed. You know… that line “till death do us part”. It’s how my family predecessors did things. My parents sort of expressed that line of thinking. I mulled it for a day or a few… but I did wise up.

    I was the same age when I married my 1st wife.
    I was 11 years older when I married my 2nd wife.
    I plan to be ~ 30 years older when I get my 3rd wench (no marriage certificate I desire this time).

    One thing… I never get screwed (fucked up) by my X’s. I LJBFed them during the breakup. Thus I guaranteed the terms past the breakup are favorable to me–I prefer less drama in my life, especially the type I have no control of.

    Yea, mah women do understand my needs! LOL!

    Like


  154. Roissy:

    Remove [welfare state] support and society will quickly revert to its natural lord of the dies state.

    This is just false. Barring an apocalyptic event that pushes human beings to the edge of extinction, we will never return to a natural order. We cannot put the toothpaste back in the tube. Even in an anarcho-capitalist society, individuals with low-impulse control and low-intelligence are going to outbreed “their betters.” Thanks to thousands of years of human innovation — attribute the greatest gains to your preferred economic system — the underclass can support many more of its offspring into sexual maturity (with or without a welfare state, which is small beans compared to birth control).

    Hunter-gatherer society (or “primitive communism”) is closest to the “natural order” but anyone with the slightest concern for their own material well-being would be crazy to return to the state of nature. With the introduction of agriculture, which gave rise to slavery, “the betters” were able to support many of their offspring on the backs of the underclass. In purely evolutionary terms, this is neither “good” nor “bad,” it just is what it is, so it’s almost comical to see Doug, Roissy, PA and other reactionary HBDers complain the “underclass” supports their offspring by illegitimate means. As far as evolution goes, everything is on the table, and on the scale of things, state assistance probably isn’t as bad as rape or murder. And make no mistake we are here this very moment in part because our ancestors raped, murdered and stole. You cannot claim the mantle of science one moment and then sanctimoniously condemn your evolutionary betters the next. The problem with HBDers is that they can’t help but take pride in their genes, which makes them tools.

    Thanks to birth control people today can game the “natural order,” their selfish genes. For the first time in known history there is an organism — so happens to be one of the great apes — who can enjoy sex with many partners yet expect to have approximately zero offspring. Evolution never gave a shit about personal happiness or human flourishing, so many of us don’t give a shit about our genes. Yes, we join the ranks of evolutionary losers, but that’s OK. We were our own masters, but now… the People of Wal-Mart shall inherit the earth.

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  155. ‘Beta’ males are more likely to settle for ugly/older chicks to marry and have kids with.

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  156. Pft. Game is simply putting modern feminized men back in the manly mindset of their forefathers. Men, even betas, of the past never treated women like men do nowadays.

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  157. Thursday, the stratification of the society went along the social hierarchy in the pre-feminist times, but for the most part, the men behaved alpha within the frame of their family. There were some sexual betas and even omegas, but not as many.

    My immediate large family was about 30 couples. 4 certifiable betas (the woman wore the pants) and one omega (never got married).

    Like


  158. Good point Thursday.

    Also it may sound crazy but it almost seems like female mate selection hasn’t evolved much as compared to males. Ancient males would fuck anything, but men have become more choosier. Women have always craved alpha males, even at their and their offspring’s expense.

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  159. Why only female mate selection? The role of women itself hasn’t changed, it’s men who changed themselves.

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  160. and I would like to hear Xontrarian’s theory on races and femininity.

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  161. “Ancient males would fuck anything, but men have become more choosier. ”

    what do people base statements like this on? if anything, ancient males were probably more selective for as close to ideal of the group when people were more isolated, an thats why individuals in small tribes tend to all look alike, like wolves. the mixing of ethnes had to be a MUCH later phenomenon and one that involved the opening of beauty standards to include what woul dhave previously been alien features

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  162. Gun, ”””’it is that the intellectual connection is very important”””

    for what?

    I would not say it is very important, just some. One of the reasons is that women with some intellectual capacity are less relying on a common sense and thus are easier to game in the LTR. My experience, your mileage may vary.

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  163. “what do people base statements like this on? if anything, ancient males were probably more selective for as close to ideal of the group when people were more isolated, an thats why individuals in small tribes tend to all look alike, like wolves. the mixing of ethnes had to be a MUCH later phenomenon and one that involved the opening of beauty standards to include what woul dhave previously been alien features”

    I think the author of this blog has proven time and time again that if women meet certain hip/chest ratios men find them attractive. Even childlike faces are preferred universally by men. When I say men became choosier I mean that their mate selection, while being based mostly on looks, now includes the character of the female in question. Hence, men desire virgin/chaste women.

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  164. Dana, how ancient are we talking about?

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  165. i dont know, i didnt say it–ancient usually seems to mean “in the before time, in the long long ago where humans acted like i am making up they did”

    tribes all look the same, like zebras, tanagers and cardinals. very little individuation. it seems logical to me that the closer an “ancient” resembled its own tribal ethne the more it would be considered “fit” for breeding. male animals don’t just “fuck anything”, why would humans ever have? more likely as humans intermingled with other ethnes more and more and became more accostomed to seeing “foreign features” that also exhibitied the deep symmetry of beauty they became MORE likely to “fuck anything” in that their ability to see difference as beauty at all probably also enabled them to get some boners for “ugliness” by accidental extension

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  166. Dana, the isolated tribal societies were not as much into the “standards of beauty” but rather into the level of trust on which their society operated. The isolation of tribes is more recent phenomenon than you seem to be presuming.

    When you look at human genetic tree, the picture is fairly complicated. It seems to suggest that imports were more common than your thesis postulates.

    I should dig up some data/context and make my first blog entry, mayhaps…

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  167. the persistence of ethnically distinct groups argues the other way–we are probably not on the same page anyway and im too lazy to type anymore to clarify

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  168. Thursday, the henpecked husband stereotype was not a reflection how very common this form was. It was common enough that it was familiar, but not as common for it to lose the entertaining deriding value–this was a standard repertoire of traveling theater companies.
    I gave the example of my larger family. The data is based on my observation. I think that the figures are a fairly representative sample.

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  169. I don’t mean to be rude or anything, but why take something so simple and try to explain it like it’s all complicated and esoteric? Game is just behavior/mindset to get women to be sexually attracted to you.

    Also, this thing about black guys having more game needs to die. In black culture, the women approach the men, and black people have more testosterone, so they fuck a whole lot more. In relationships, the average black guy with no game isn’t any better off then the average white guy with no game, it’s just that they can get lays easier. Plus they have mudsharks/ugly/fat chicks approaching them all the time because they know that black guys have lower standards.

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  170. Trimegistus likes to set up straw men:

    The HBD crowd suffer from a massive internal contradiction. They claim there are differences among racial groups, and some groups are more fit than others — fine.

    Then they complain that the “less fit” are somehow having more babies and getting ahead in life at the expense of the “more fit.”

    Do you misrepresent the HBD crowd out of malice or ignorance?

    Do you really believe the HBD writers conflate reproductive fitness and IQ? Or are you just lying?

    There’s a hell of a lot of ignorant assertions being made about positions in this thread by people who either haven’t read the people they are misrepresenting or are intentionally trying to deceive readers here on just what out-of-the-closet HBD folks believe.

    OneSTDV,

    You have to go back and read thru what he says more carefully. When he’s referring to HBD people note that he includes both in-the-closet and out-of-the-closet people. So right off, there are two groups of realists, those who admit to realism and those who deny what they really believe.

    Then among those who are out-of-the-closet he sees those who deny the usefulness of Game and those who accept that it is useful.

    You know HBD realists who are out-of-the-closet and who deny the responsiveness of women to Game.

    Some of the reactions here (and elsewhere for that matter) to his views and to the views of various HBD writers are misrepresentations of what he’s saying and what they have written. Some of this is due to laziness and ignorance. But there’s some malicious intent on display too along with status posing.

    [Editor: Correct. Most of the world are “HBD believers”, but among them (at least in the West) only a tiny subset are willing to admit to their beliefs.
    As for “out of the closet” HBD believers, a large minority seem to hold tightly to traditionalist notions of male-female courtship, which explains their visceral revulsion to game.]

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  171. Dana, I get your point. I am not saying that it has not been a factor, but maybe not as important as other factors. I’ll do a writeup on it when I get to it and link it.

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  172. I would argue against the idea that upper class people / elites / aristocrats are really much better genetically. Maybe a little “different” though.

    In Britain at least upper class / wealthy people do often bear certain characteristics. They are more likely to be blonde, a bit taller possibly, and often seem to have some other hard-to-describe facial characteristics (and big noses). However a lot of them are quite ugly I would not say they are markedly more attractive than middle classers, and despite great educations many of them can be quite dim too. Many of them look a little inbred, to be blunt.

    Elites in europe are more likely to have come into wealth heredetarily. American elites, most of which have realtively “new money” may be a little different – Their money has more likely come through real meritous success relatively recently in their family.

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  173. Jay M, this is not correct:

    Evolutionarily speaking, not everyone is handsome because men have decided to develop their character and competence, which women found attractive.

    No, way back in evolutionary history Og wasn’t sitting around the stone age camp fire one night when it occurred to him to develop his character as a way to win over Zeep.

    Men developed their competence while out hunting or fishing with Dad. If the genes in a person allowed that person to develop a greater competence then the genetically close group they were in did better and they ate better and he lived longer. The competence was the result of selective forces, not decisions.

    One reason why people aren’t better looking is that humans were getting selected for and against for many reasons, just one of which is how physically attractive a man is to a woman or a woman is to a man. If physical appearances were the only criteria for mate selection then people would be better looking. Some populations are probably better looking because local conditions made competition for mates relatively more important than was the case elsewhere.

    If being better looking takes more resources (e.g. bigger breasts that do not produce more milk or hair that lasts longer or bigger muscles that burn more calories even at rest) then it becomes harder to select for looks in a Malthusian world. It can still happen. But other selective pressures are at work besides attractiveness for mate selection.

    An example of another force: if someone ugly happened to have a gene that conferred resistance to the plague and then the plague swept across Europe that person survived while more attractive people without that gene died. Infectious disease and hunger were probably the biggest causes of human death for the last couple thousand years in Europe until the modern era. Mate selection only happened between people who reached their teen years or beyond (actually, mostly in their 20s if Gregory Clark is correct).

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  174. There ought to be a way to preview comments on this blog. My comment above has two open blockquotes where I meant to close the first one. So the inner most text is actually me.

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  175. Jim,

    Regards upper class reproduction versus the lower class: Read Gregory Clark’s book A Farewell To Alms. The titled nobility are kinda besides the point. In England for centuries the middle class were more reproductively fit (having more babies and more reaching adulthood to reproduce) than the lower class. This was the difference that mattered. A stable system of property rights combined with the Malthusian Trap enabled a selective process to run for centuries.

    Clark argues that this either selected for genes or culture that produced more successful and economically reproductive people and this led to the escape from the Malthusian Trap. I think it obvious that the main mechanism was selective pressure on genes. The smarter and more skilled middle class spread genes that made the industrial revolution possible.

    Read Benjamin Friedman’s review of Clark’s book in the NY Times.

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  176. the most profound and interesting writers and academics who deal with the subject of evolution from a social science perspective have all but abandoned the nature v. nurture paradigm. it should be obvious to anyone who thinks clearly about this: in human beings genes often express themselves through culture and culture, in turn, helps select what genes get transmitted. it’s not one or the other. it’s not even x% of one versus y% of the other. it’s a complicated system of feedback mechanisms that defies the sort of reduction practiced by both HBD adherants and blank slaters.

    Funny, because this HBDer/WN was just thinking you described his take on “nature vs. nurture” perfectly.

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  177. Roissy:

    On a side note, betas having more kids than alphas is not necessarily evidence that they are better with women. Instead, all it could mean is that the betas are finally getting their shot at aging pussy after the alphas have had their fill of that same pussy when it was younger, hotter, tighter and uninterested in baby-making. Number of kids is a poor measure of alphaness in this hedonistic day and age.

    Commenter:

    The HBD crowd suffer from a massive internal contradiction. They claim there are differences among racial groups, and some groups are more fit than others — fine.

    Then they complain that the “less fit” are somehow having more babies and getting ahead in life at the expense of the “more fit.”

    Guys: that’s the definition of fitness! If those groups are having more kids and getting your stuff, it kind of proves you aren’t as fit as they are, evolutionarily speaking.

    I just thought those quotes went well together. 🙂

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  178. I agree, I was talking about old “elites” as people call them, aristocratic people with hereditary wealth.You’re right they’re irrelevant, there’s very few of them left.

    The passing on of cultural memes is as important as genes I should think. Part of that is ambition and confidence which I see lacking some lower class people, and also basic standards of behavior – the sort that makes you fit nor not for a job interview or to work politely in the office of a modern business.

    I am interested in class immensely actually. I work with a lot of europeans from other countries and many of them repeat the idea that the British are class obsessed and it exists to a much lesser extent in their own countries. Personally I think class differences are simply more likely to manifest themselves in a percivable forms in the UK, accent, mannerisms and behaviors, eating habits etc.

    I have a Finish friend who insists there is little concept of class in Finland, from what she says pretty much everybody is “middle class” and standards of living vary less.

    Incidentally in 4-5 trips there I have found the US to be the most class stratified country I’ve been to.

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  179. Morsellaux

    One thing… I never get screwed (fucked up) by my X’s. I LJBFed them during the breakup. Thus I guaranteed the terms past the breakup are favorable to me–I prefer less drama in my life, especially the type I have no control of.

    You live in the US right? (And I’ll assume not in Texas. Texas does have relatively decent child support and alimony laws but the same division of property laws as elsewhere these days.) In that case if you have kids you got screwed. The child support formulas in just about all states include a whole lot of stealth alimony. In all but Texas (so far as I know after a good bit of looking) the formula percentages are applied to your pretax earnings making their after tax or take home pay effect way way worse than they appear. Often 50% of after tax income for two kids for an upper middle class earner in a higher tax state.

    Further paying her half your accumulated assets, at least accumulated during the marriage, unless the two of you made about the same amount of money throughout the relationship, is getting screwed. That wasn’t the law anywhere in the US or for that matter the world until the late 60s in Cali and 70s and 80s in most other states. It only became the judicial practice in Britain in 2000, following the US example, and elsewhere that in the Anglosphere that had followed the US.

    Not having to pay alimony named as such on top of all this is a plus. But it doesn’t mean you weren’t screwed.

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  180. Randall Parker–

    Read Gregory Clark’s book A Farewell To Alms.

    I haven’t read his book but I’ve read several long and perceptive reviews of it including Razib’s of GNXP.

    I realize that Clark avoid’s saying what was selected for was intelligence. Instead he suggests it was long time horizon and forward planning and prudence, as witnessed by low English interest rates, etc. (All pretty strongly correlated with IQ.) And then says that’s a lot of why England kicked off the Industrial Revolution.

    The trouble with that is that German, Dutch, Scandinavian, Polish etc. IQ’s are just as high or a smidge higher in some cases, and if southern Euro ones are any lower, it’s just a smidgen in most countries for which we have much data. I don’t know what the data on long time horizon, forward planning and prudence are in these other Euro countries but I’m curious about that.

    I wonder if the process he tended to show happened in England through such methods as examining death records and inheritance rolls, happened a lot more widely in Europe. Cochran and Harpendig inform us that lots more evolutionary change has occurred, the genetic evidence indicates, in the last 10k years than in the 50k before that.

    I tend to think the reason England kicked off the Industrial Revolution had more to do with it’s coal and iron resources being near cheap water navigation points, combined with high IQ and a fairly free trading, capitalist, economic structure – and rule of predictable, reasonable, commercial law. Germany might have got there first if there was a Germany (as opposed to many German statelets) in the second half of the 1700’s.

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  181. “No, way back in evolutionary history Og wasn’t sitting around the stone age camp fire one night when it occurred to him to develop his character as a way to win over Zeep.”

    “Zeep” found him attractive as a by product of his having invented the bow and arrow, or his leadership ability, or his artistic talent (which far exceeded Franz Klein and Dada’s), and his character development was a byproduct of wanting to make life easier for himself and his tribe, which subsequently resulted in females choosing him over his physically stronger, more handsome competitors.

    “Elites in Europe are more likely to have come into wealth heredetarily. American elites, most of which have relatively ‘new money’ may be a little different – Their money has more likely come through real meritorious success relatively recently in their family.”

    Correct; the European peerage and royals have lost incentive over the generations to compete and grow, whereas the middle class competitively produced values, made the old feudal system obsolete, and is responsible for creating the modern freedoms we enjoy today.

    However, here in the US we have an aristocracy of sorts. The upper classes have their own regional accents, just like the working classes. For instance, the Locust Valley Lockjaw, Boston Brahman, and southern gentleman accents are far different than the neutral (American) middle-class accent (a product of frequent travel) and working class accent. The upper class does not have any real power for the most part (although many do have positions of power, such as many boards of directors of various think tanks and corporations), and the owning class, which comprises of both nouveau riche people who have prole, middle, or upper middle class roots, and those established members of the upper class, comprise the owning class.

    The upper class is also famously known as the Social Register elite, posh Paulies (if they went to St.Paul’s) snotty Grotties (if they went to Groton), and the manner born.

    When an upper class person says: “Person X worked very hard for her/his money” or “She/he renovated her/his house and/or furniture” it is actually a pejorative term for ” She/he is gauche/has no class and nouveau riche”. Upper class people also make fun of people who wear expensive brands. I can understand making fun of a tacky Dolce & Gabanna polo, but Hermès? but high end clothing typically last forever and is very comfortable. Also, are Lacoste, Brooks Brothers, Marc Jacobs, and Vineyard Vines (find the odd one out… I do not care if Marc Jacobs is a fashion brand, he designs very soft polos) considered expensive? I see these brands in every city I go into, especially Cambridge and Boston. I’m not exactly Nelson Rockefeller and I can keep a healthy, organic diet while buying these brands, so perhaps they aren’t expensive and therefore not gauche? Also, expensive relative to what? What store should be considered the median for such a measurement? Macy’s or Nordstrom? I do know that the middle of such a scale would fall somewhere between Wal-Mart and Hermès.

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  182. The whole HBD discussion on the Internet, without the self-righteous bullshit, can be summed in:

    HBD: Darkies have more Testosterone and Game, so why bother.

    Obsidian: Whites have more IQ and they do more money, so why bother.

    Both need to get stuffed. Life isn’t fair, nobody starts equal, and we all should do what we can with what we have. All the whining on the world won’t change that.

    Allow me to add the third dimension:
    Game: the universe is all about me.

    That’s one of the more salient divides, IMO. Gamers don’t seem to care about anything but their peckers. At least, the game evangelists don’t. Alphas do.

    Genetic differences between the races are miniscule, and are mostly offset by the bell-curve of attributes *within* each racial group.

    What does this mean?

    Nurture (education, health, societal values, etc.) play a much greater role in how any given individual turns out.

    Horseshit. Where we’re able to disentangle, the science says genes are the lion’s share, not environment.

    The environmental differences libs harp on are miniscule. Raised in such similar environments, genes come to the fore all the more (as you’ve effectively controlled for environment).

    When the scales fall off your eyes and you see the true nature of women, it makes it easier to see the true nature of blacks, whites, Jews and Asians.

    Similarly, when the scales fall off your eyes and you see, for example, the true nature of blacks, whites, Jews and Asians, it makes it a lot easier to see the nature of women.

    I knew if I read long enough I’d be rewarded. I don’t know what all this “HBD woman-pedestal” thing’s about; maybe it’s just because much of the Game readership is non-white and looking for a reason?

    When and where did you hear that? Israel actually has the most moral foreign policy in the world. They even drop leaflets to warn Palestinian civilians before attacking

    Fucking…hilarious!

    white supremacists found 3 lines in the, what, 12 volume talmud that said something about it being ok to cheat, lie and steal from the goyim and they now believe those are the main tenets of rabbinic judaism

    WNs noticed Ashkenazis cheating, lying, and stealing from humanity for 3,000 years, and sought an explanation; the dumber ones latched onto a literalist/fundamentalist talmudic explanation. Then Ashkenazis latched onto the stupidest WN arguments they could, which is one of the standard plays in their (quite small) playbook (AKA, straw man argument).

    FTFY.

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  183. People saying scumbags are “more fit” by virtue of popping out more sprogs couldn’t be more misleaded. Scumbags are r-strategists, like bacteria, weeds and vermin. Funny, that.

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  184. Doug1, I live in BC, but that is beside the point There are reciprocal arrangements between US & Ca. That being said…

    X1–Canada recognizes divorces from countries where the marriage happened. Since the Czech court had no jurisdiction about our kid (Can.), everything else was an arrangement between me and my X1. No alimony.

    X2–US. Won’t go into details. Let me assure you that there is no alimony, and we have an arrangement re child support that is solely at our discretion.

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  185. Morsellaux,

    Replied to your question. go find it prof. Mars! BC! I’ve been there. My best friend lives there! Love those fusion Japanese food on Denmen (sp?) yum, yum!

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  186. I do have thoughts on this topic, but too lazy to write it all out! hee! Maybe tomorrow.

    in short:

    I don’t believe we are determined. I believe we are influenced and internally we make our choices. Our environment can greatly influence who we are. I believe in change. Change is good. Movement is good–especially in a relationship–growth. Liking a whale…if it stops swimming, it will die!

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  187. what, yea, good answer.

    Denman street… I am fond of texmex, got kinda used to it when I was living in TX and that type of food sucks here, so doing it myself.

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  188. what, there are biological and environment (to a degree) factors that are determined, but otherwise, agreed, we have a capacity to make choices and thus preselect and determine outcomes.

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  189. The thing about looks being important. Right, it is important, but what’s “good looking”? Everyone has different taste. The visual is always important, but get me a good looking guy and if his personality sucks, who cares how good looking he is. I recall reading in an earlier post some of you saying that if a girl is really good looking the best quality is her not knowing she is that great looking. Modesty is important. Same applies to men.

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  190. Morsellaux,

    “what, there are biological and environment (to a degree) factors that are determined, but otherwise, agreed, we have a capacity to make choices and thus preselect and determine outcomes.”

    For example,

    the reason why siblings in a family with the same parents and the same environment can turn out so different. Internally we all make choices some conscious, some unconscious. We can choice to see thing differently, thus shaping us differently.

    My formative years were spent with two other care givers than my parents and I turned out extremely different from my brothers. I believe the environmental influences are so strong is shaping us. My internal compass is different from my brothers.. is amazing. Not saying who’s better, just different. Everything has it pros and cons, depending on how we use it.

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  191. what, well you are a girl, so naturally you turned out very different from your brothers! 🙂

    If you want to have a better idea how the biological determinants and environment factors influence forming of personality, study identical twins.

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  192. @Morsellaux,

    “what, well you are a girl, so naturally you turned out very different from your brothers! :-)”

    “If you want to have a better idea how the biological determinants and environment factors influence forming of personality, study identical twins.”

    hee! hee! a girl I am!! I have things they don’t have!! haha!

    Identical twins. I don’t know very much on this topic, do share your knowledge.

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  193. Thursday nailing it to the wall for all to see

    You idealize. The henpecked husband is a very old stereotype.

    Passing shit tests isn’t just for building attraction. From the outset there will be a struggle for dominance. And it will continue.

    The alpha has times of piece with those he rules, but there will always be those jealous of the throne. Shit tests are never ending, and always important.

    “Go get me my purse” No. “Do you love me? If you love me you will get me my purse!” Big head! Who said that I love you!

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  194. Heheh, double your pleasure!

    Kidding. 🙂
    One thing’s funny, though, I am from identical twins.

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  195. Amazing and creepy. I thought of someone looking exactly like myself walking around this earth is too strange. Double the pleasure!!! kidding too! hahaa!!

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  196. what, actually, it was kind of fun, confusing people. We sometimes did take exams on behalf of another. Division of labor.

    The thing is, nearly 7 billion people… there is someone walking this earth looking almost exactly like you.

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  197. @Morsellaux,

    “what, actually, it was kind of fun, confusing people. We sometimes did take exams on behalf of another. Division of labor.”

    I hope that’s all you shared!! lol!! You two must be very close. How wonderful!

    “The thing is, nearly 7 billion people… there is someone walking this earth looking almost exactly like you.”

    I know….Angelina Jolie. hahah!!

    I read earlier about how you don’t want drama. Some people thrive on drama….usually, I think it works as a distraction from what they really are avoiding to face.

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  198. I wrote this in an earlier post. I think it’s relevant to the topic here.

    here it is:

    We are not stagnant individuals. We are all evolving, hopefully growing. With every new experience we hopefully will learn a bit more. As we all evolve, we will be incorporating and gaining new hopefully better, more effective ideas and ways of relating. Game is representative of one amongst many new repertoire we will learn to better relate or interact wit others. As we are evolving, we are still ourselves, only now we are an even better, more sophisticated version of ourselves. That’s what growth is all about.

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  199. what, I hope that’s all you shared!! lol!!

    We shared a girlfriend in the first grade. So, she got double the kisses she’d get otherwise. 🙂

    You two must be very close.

    Not as much after our 20’s. Different paths… different amimals.

    My beef with dramas is that I resent if I am not the author of it. 🙂

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  200. Morsellaux,

    happy commenting!…signing off… until next topic….lalalalala!!

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  201. I wonder what I said so disturbing to end up in moderation. LOL!

    Time to watch a movie… what we have here… something thematic?

    Quest for Fire.

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  202. you caveman you! have fun!

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  203. i dont believe in Game because i think it is immoral to insult a woman in order to have sex with her. it is important to be yourself around women so they can judge you for who you are.

    real men dont have to put on an act. real men go to church and pray and are able to be silent but deadly.

    Game is for losers and if it works at all it only works on women who are already hookers.

    HBD is valuable because it is good at distinguishing the niggers from the merely colored.

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  204. hitler had game.

    men are more evil than need be for the same reason peacocks have more flamboyant tails than need be. chicks dig it.

    war! what is it good for? pussy!

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  205. “war! what is it good for? pussy!” – AHE

    That probably makes the most sense I heard in a while!

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  206. Roissy,

    Great post. The errant idea that Game somehow epitomizes the realities of HBD needed to be tempered. That Game takes down the feminist myth about gender being a social construction by illustrating that there are differences in what men and women are attracted to (the primary point of difference being how on the guy’s pie chart physical attractiveness also covers all the space that is devoted to social status on the girl’s chart) is, from an HBD evangelist’s perspective, solid gold.

    However, the fact remains that Game is founded on the premise that all the female detection mechanisms that have been honed by selection (natural and sexual) throughout human evolutionary history do a pretty crummy job at what they’re commissioned to do. The degree to which they fail is open to debate–and your assessment is more attuned to reality (they do an okay job, but they’re far from precise) than those made by some of your most zealous minions (they basically don’t exist) are–but it’s axiomatic that they are significantly flawed.

    This is in contrast to the detection mechanisms of men, which are far more perspicacious than those possessed by women are. Science has thrown a few wrenches into man’s well-oiled machine with plastic surgery, breast enhancement, and the like, but prior to World War I, women were almost powerless to do anything at all to influence male detection mechanisms.

    HBDers like OneSTDV and Randall Parker (both of whom I have great respect for) would be wise to acknowledge this. That by no means implies that either HBD or Game is bunk–genetics and ancestry aren’t everything–but they aren’t natural bedfellows. Using one to push the other is akin to using geology to sell people on the wonders of chemical engineering–there’s a bit of overlap, but we’re not talking accounting and finance here.

    I don’t take any offense at the slights directed my way, either. The atmosphere is such that to question any aspect of Game is to tacitly admit to being unsuccessful with women, much like questioning the idea that discrimination is the reason for the black-white achievement gap is to tacitly admit to being a racist. Conveniently enough, my recent tangling of tongues and limbs with a voluptuous black girl serves as a refutation two-fer, but I don’t get bent out of shape when my anonymous pseudonym is disparaged as being piloted by a 40 year-old virgin who leads Klan cross-burnings on the weekends!

    [Editor: I’m not sure game is founded on a premise of flawed female detection like you claim. Sure, a case can be made for the FFD theory, but an equally valid case can be made for the theory that women are perfectly attuned for what they want, just as men are, and that a significant part of what they want are men with the charming/asshole-y/jerkish/PUA behavior that game attempts to deliver. The man with no job or looks who somehow manages to hook up with scores of women through sheer confidence and swagger is a hot commodity in and of himself, because women are drawn to men whose genes show promise that any sons they may have together will inherent the same ladykiller mojo.

    PS Glad to hear you banged that black girl. Not banging cute girls in their prime when it was within reach is one thing for certain you will regret when you’re old and gray.]

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  207. Game works because evil works.

    why is Game new in human history? people used to just say evil, but we live in PC times.

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  208. i think it is immoral to insult a woman

    and

    if it works at all it only works on women who are already hookers

    AHE

    1. I can assure you that the Game works on all women

    2. You have no comprehension what the Game is — it is a special case of social interaction. Women practice their own version of the Game.

    3. You think it is immoral to insult women and yet you have no problem doing so.

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  209. 4. There was never time in history where there was no game. It was not called the Game, but it was always present.

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  210. Mosaylo,

    1. i dont insult women u fucking faggot.

    B. women do not practice their version of Game. that is an ugly lie. women tend to be themselves. why is that so hard to understand?

    if u want to meet a girl and fall in love just be yourself. nature will take its course.
    .
    the reason people ARENT falling in love is because people are not being themselves and therefore people arent really meeting each other.

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  211. Ah, I see. My mistake assuming that there may be some chance for a civil discourse.

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  212. AHE :

    i dont believe in Game because i think it is immoral to insult a woman in order to have sex with her. it is important to be yourself around women so they can judge you for who you are.

    real men dont have to put on an act. real men go to church and pray and are able to be silent but deadly.

    Game is for losers and if it works at all it only works on women who are already hookers.

    There is so much wrong with AHE’s comment that I am now beginning to think that AHE is a troll trying to make HBDers look bad.

    It is not common for someone to be so incredibly off. Hence, I think it is deliberate.

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  213. Morsellaux,

    Yep, I live in BC, too. I was watching a video recently about a guy who was thoroughly ass-raped in court re alimony. He said he had no problem paying child support but the alimony turned him into a modern day slave. Can’t afford to purchase a new home. renting an apartment. can’t move on with his life.

    anyway, you been around. to your knowledge, does Canada have a more progressive/superior family court/divorce regime than the US? Do guys get as ass-fucked here in Canada as they do south of the border? I never hear of alimony in canada. of course we all know child support is around, but I never hear of alimony.

    also, does canada have better shared parenting/joint custody laws than the US (to your knowledge)?

    I’m just curious, thought you might have some insight. If you don’t, no worries.

    Like


  214. What can a guy out by himself do to be seen as an aloof person rather than a quiet person by other people? And what is a good opener if you want to remain aloof?

    Like


  215. whoops! forgot to link to the alimony video. this poor guy is from Georgia. I guess the lesson is don’t get married in Georgia. Or just don’t get married. Here it is:

    Like


  216. Tim, alimony was always a part of the divorce settlement, but it was not so bad before 2003, the parties involved in a divorce could come up with their mutual agreement, which was supported by “clean break” provisions in the family/divorce laws, especially if there was a joint custody resolution. But since 2003, the government decide to meddle and though the policy is officially gender neutral, in 98% of cases the alimony is awarded to the woman.

    So, essentially the same shit like in states.

    Like


  217. on September 26, 2010 at 3:18 am Gunslingergregi

    ””””’Men developed their competence while out hunting or fishing with Dad. If the genes in a person allowed that person to develop a greater competence then the genetically close group they were in did better and they ate better and he lived longer. The competence was the result of selective forces, not decisions.”””””

    We may be looking at ancient history wrong. I think the woman probably did the majority of the work and guys displayed their worth killing other men who were a danger to their society.

    I think woman are perfectly capable of hunting and fishing for the clan and everything else but not as capable of killing other men or defending the clan.

    Guys probably had a heck of a lot of relaxation time.

    Like


  218. Gun, you can probably get a bit of insight by asking people that tried homesteading.

    If the men had too much relaxation time, the whole family was dead during winter.

    It is almost impossible to imagine for people today how hard working men and women were in the past. Even now, with all the mechanization, farming is a tough job. In societies that were predominantly based on agriculture, that was a standard fare for a majority of people.

    Like


  219. “There is so much wrong with AHE’s comment that I am now beginning to think that AHE is a troll trying to make HBDers look bad.”

    If it weren’t for trolls and pranksters Roissy would have a whole lot less to write about.

    Like


  220. “There is so much wrong with AHE’s comment that I am now beginning to think that AHE is a troll trying to make HBDers look bad.”

    Roissy is a very bad judge of BS, which is why he believes in so much of it.

    Like


  221. Gun, yea, in Indonesia, winters are quite rare. 😉
    The last one was when Krakatoa blew up, I believe.

    Like


  222. David, I have to disagree with you about YHT. I think it’s a fitting description because, except for some very dedicated professionals, the vast majority of women are kind of sexually lazy, and it does get stretched out or a bit saggy over time, and with each child.

    Since most western women’s diet sucks, skin elasticity starts to go fairly early. I figure it’s diet related because I had rough elbows until about a year into a natural diet. I’m not using a different oil or anything. Skin elasticity covers the skin everywhere. When it goes, a woman’s labia and vagina loses elasticity too.

    The whole lifestyle of the modern “liberated” woman leads to their being saggy and used up by the late 20’s to early 30’s.

    Like


  223. Gun, we live like kings in comparison with people in the past. And not even so remote past. My paternal granpa was a farmer. He worked 10 hours per day form spring to fall. He had a bit of relaxation on sundays. During winters, there was less to do, but still–repairs, chopping wood for stove, cows, pigs and horses had to be taken care of, while geese, ducks, chicken and rabbits were in my granma’s job description, beside laundry, ironing, cooking and canning.

    Like


  224. Nicole, vast majority of women are kind of sexually lazy

    Meaning?

    Ability to contract vaginal walls? Yea, that is kind of a rare treat.

    Like


  225. It’s definitely what you make of it. I’ve seen conventionally ugly guys put an effort into improving their lot and come across as quite charming, more often than not with a respectable-looking chick in tow, in fact one “Mister Nobody” I knew used to regularly hop from hottie to hottie leaving the mob wondering in bafflement as to how the hell how he did it. On the opposite side of the spectrum you get blokes with god-given genes trash it memetically and phenotypically, like a recent close pal of mine who ended up blowing his brains out yet he was given genes that most men would kill for.

    Like


  226. Morsellaux, well yes, there are kegels, and then there’s walking in general. I’m convinced that a woman must walk.

    Benjamin Franklin said that old women and young are the same down there, but back then, women used to walk more. I think if women today knew what walking does for them, the days of the promenade would return. In the evenings, every girl would be on the street walking around, not sitting in cafes for hours at a time.

    Belly dancing and similar styles like soukous and reggaeton are also good for women. It keeps all the organs supported.

    Like


  227. […] Chateau – “Beta Fights Back“, “Curing Oneitis“, “A Woman Explains Why Chicks Dig Jerks“, “HBD and PUA” […]

    Like


  228. on September 26, 2010 at 7:25 am Gunslingergregi

    Yea I was walking down a river pathway with my son today watching the kids playing in the water while mom was getting hair done again he he he

    But yea was cool everyone outside saying hello friendly.

    He wasn’t quite ready to dive in water yet and I wasn’t quite ready to throw him in.

    Coming back there was dude passing truck in our lane we locked eyes.

    Dude threw his bike sideways and took some pain rather than hit us although I had it under control and still missed his spinning bike coming sideways down road with his body behind it.

    I stopped motor and went back to check him resiliant dude although his bike didn’t work anymore gave him pat on back as thank you.

    Talking to wife about it she like fuck him basically when I talking sending someone back there to help him with bike.

    I guess woman don’t appreciate white nighting and sacrifice of yourself for the good of others.

    Yea sure he should of looked when passing but when he fucked up he ate the blame.

    Like


  229. famous AHE…

    that Janus-Face aka Wandering Undesirable aka High-Functioning Gypsy aka Ancient Friend of Ours aka Tribal Leader aka “race mixing is great!” **marries jew

    … just dropped this blank-slatism:

    i dont believe in Game because i think it is immoral to insult a woman in order to have sex with her. it is important to be yourself around women so they can judge you for who you are.

    real men dont have to put on an act. real men go to church and pray and are able to be silent but deadly. THOUGH NOT YOU, SCHLOMO.

    Game is for losers and if it works at all it only works on women who are already hookers.

    HBD is valuable because it is good at distinguishing the niggers from the merely colored.

    BUT THEN HE SAID
    on September 26, 2010 at 1:00 am AHE

    hitler had game.

    men are more evil than need be for the same reason peacocks have more flamboyant tails than need be. chicks dig it.

    war! what is it good for? pussy!

    yes, YES! Game is anti-semitic, as it is the natural derivative of all applied biodiversity. jew influence in Game practice? inconsequential. let’s ROCK THE FUCK OUT OF THIS MEME

    let me recap:

    AHE disagrees BECAUSE HITLER WOULD HAVE AGREED!!

    who says such people are not despicable?

    Like


  230. on September 26, 2010 at 7:36 am Gunslingergregi

    Like the shit was contagious going down the shitty road to my house instead of good one because I like the challenge especially when it is full of water. Potholes two feet deep nice little ditbike type course.

    I did slip sideways but was going slow so just caught family on my knee lol

    Son and woman like little monkeys around my kneck lol

    They didn’t even get muddy caught everything on my knee per my motor sliding now standard operating procedure.

    I had a good time.

    Woman like why did you go this way.

    I am like don’t worry bout it even if we wreck into a giant mud puddle we have bath capability and can wash clothes he he he

    Like


  231. on September 26, 2010 at 7:59 am Gunslingergregi

    highly suggested to buy your woman a salon since then she can go their daily if she feels like it and even if salon is breaking even you don’t come out of your pocket for her daily fresh from salon look. Plus other side of coin she gets props from all the woman around her because they get discounts. It is a status raiser. Plus free haircuts.

    Like


  232. on September 26, 2010 at 8:12 am Gunslingergregi

    Allright now she is talking about how the other dude was cool but I was cooler he he he

    laughing about our son being latched on my kneck when I did wreck slightly and he didn’t cry and wasn’t afraid just said papa wrecked lol

    He did the right thing stay attached to papa.

    Good little midget. he he he

    Maybe subcons I did it as test in case I ever really have to throw down motor.

    I think family passed.

    Guys are there to save lives and excitement woman are there for everything else.

    Got to practice these things he he he

    Like


  233. on September 26, 2010 at 8:20 am Gunslingergregi

    God dam yo I guess men do need a world that is not so antiseptic and lacking any sharp edges to rend the flesh so we can shine and have our moments of glory.

    Like


  234. Rather than pollute the comments here endless stream of consciousness ramblings about my current infatuation and my efforts to game her, I’ve started using my blog again.

    Synopsis – after date 6, I’m still on track to marry her within 3 months. She’s invited me to meet her family in another city, told me that she loves me, marriage has been mentioned.

    Like


  235. xsplat,

    happy for you. love is in the air!!

    Like


  236. on September 26, 2010 at 10:08 am Gunslingergregi

    Kind of interesting how mans persuit of excellance saves lives. I have been driving that hard road on purpose to get my motor skills up to par and then today they saved my families ass he he he

    I could have always just drove around in persuit of mediocraty but then we could have been all fucked up right now.

    Interesting shit.

    Like


  237. Hey Roissy,
    How about analyzing some game scenes from the movie “The Tailor of Panama”?
    This movie has some nice game scenes.

    Like


  238. AHE: if u want to meet a girl and fall in love just be yourself

    Being yourself is not a good rule of thumb for falling in love with a girl, not if you’re an omega and/or unless you’ve resigned yourself to your natural SMV like a total defeatist and then have to cope with the fuglies whom you may barely even manage a semi for. Game is not necessarily lying or just lying, it’s a tangible means of self-improvement. Better social skills, better banter. Not to mention the varieties of game.

    Like


  239. […] HBD And PUA « Citizen Renegade Posted on September 26, 2010 by The LP 999 HBD And PUA « Citizen Renegade. […]

    Like


  240. If anyone wants to improve their “game” may I suggest “To the Manner Born, to Manners Bred” and Debrett’s etiquette guides? Nothing says alpha like good manners, showing that one has proper breeding, and not appearing to be an ignorant bore.

    Also, developing one’s character and personality helps, and so does exercising. I will recommend to the reader to take up squash and/or tennis, since these sports develop one’s stamina, agility, and coordination. In addition, men should adopt a decent sense of style. This means getting your suits and blazers tailored (but not too perfectly), and wearing all natural and high quality materials. Women look for these kinds of things in a guy. Throw away those Target button down shirts and invest in some Brooks Brothers oxford cloth button down shirts. L.L. Bean also makes good quality clothing.

    Like


  241. on September 26, 2010 at 12:50 pm Gunslingergregi

    “”manners”

    Really is that what gets you to the promised land.

    I will agree they can help with other people with manors.

    But in dealing with females in a bad situation lack of manners is the path of least resistance.

    Like


  242. Visit family pass the biggest shit test possible and if you live you might make it to the doorway

    Especially with an impressive kris knife hanging around in a prominent location! LOL!

    Like


  243. on September 26, 2010 at 12:59 pm gunslingergregi

    Yea more like a swashbuckler type he he he

    of course big fucking machettes everywhere that could easily chop your fucking arm off.

    Like


  244. @AHE

    Cosmetics, fashion, and acting sexy (i.e., the art of seduction) IS game for women.

    Like


  245. on September 26, 2010 at 1:09 pm gunslingergregi

    Had to look that up I was thinking another asian weapon.

    But yea I guess indonesian (per article) that thing is evil looking.

    I have seen for sale (maybe) in jakarta but not in the house.

    Just real deal killing weaps around here.

    Talked to woman never seen one.

    Like


  246. of course big fucking machettes everywhere that could easily chop your fucking arm off

    “I have a big fucking macho-ette and you don’t!” LOL

    Like


  247. Krises are mostly a Balinese tradition.

    Like


  248. on September 26, 2010 at 1:22 pm gunslingergregi

    Yea I like my amazon woman capable of chopping me up keeps me manly somewhat he he he

    Face the fear lol

    Like


  249. Church girl update:

    Not sure what her agenda is, but she is showing a lot of interest. After church, she came from behind me and touched me on the shoulder. I turned, and we exchanged awkward hellos, how are yous. She is still noticeably nervous around me. I complimented her on her weird boots. We talked much physically closer today than we have in the past and she asked if I wanted to go get coffee or lunch. I had to decline, but we set something up for lunch tomorrow.

    The most noticeable characteristic of our conversations is her unwavering and complete eye contact with me. Even when talking about trivial stuff…she is always locked in. Last Sunday I thought she might be trying to force the LJBF angle…this Sunday I just felt that she wanted to be near me. Of course, its difficult to objectively measure such a thing in another person when you are experiencing that feeling yourself. I’m optimistic that this collaboration will result in some really good songs. I think the feelings are there on both sides. Long term, church girl and I will probably go down in flames big time, but hopefully not before we write 10-12 good songs…

    Like


  250. on September 26, 2010 at 1:59 pm Gunslingergregi

    ””””’“I have a big fucking macho-ette and you don’t!” LOL”””””

    You did kick off some shit may not have intended.

    That is the wierdest part nobody tells them they are equal.

    I look at their actions and think wtf kind of equality is us talking about.

    In poor countries where metal meets meat they are more equal than western bitch and yet know they are not equal to men still and are still more feminine.

    Wierd shit.

    But yea I do have a machette you prob couldn’t buy. he he he

    Like


  251. In a traditional context, the men in the family shit test on behalf of the woman, because we all know how it works out when the women are let to do it themselves–gina tingles system override.

    “It’s not a bug–it’s a ‘feature'”

    LOL!

    Like


  252. on September 26, 2010 at 2:02 pm Gunslingergregi

    Come on dude didn’t you also say as an afterthought she was leaving her husband. That might be the kind of thing that is a big obvious fucking problem. lol

    Like


  253. on September 26, 2010 at 2:08 pm Gunslingergregi

    Actually passing shit test vs men is complete system fucking meltdown for a bitch he he he

    Just passing hers makes her tingle.

    But when you go out into the valley of the shadow of death against the toughest in the area he he he

    The vag can explode. lol

    Like


  254. Sidewinder, she is doing the “eyes wiles” on you! Watch out for dilated pupils, I bet she’s got codeine cough drops in her purse! LOL!

    Like


  255. on September 26, 2010 at 2:13 pm Gunslingergregi

    Traditional actually probably made for tighter bonds than current just passing her shit tests with no family around nor relatives.

    When you beat her respected male family members at a game of life.

    Then of course she will be tingling for you at a higher pitch.

    Like


  256. on September 26, 2010 at 2:29 pm Gunslingergregi

    See your in kind of a bad position no other bitch I could get with basically could bury me in the backyard which is what I want.

    So I am fairly safe from their evil clutches.

    You on the other hand do not seem to be.

    Like


  257. Church girl’s status with her husband is that they are still married. He still posts really beta stuff on her facebook page, although she never responds to it. For example, when she had a friend in town to visit, he commented on her page “I’m the luckiest man in the world to have two hotties in my house!” She didn’t respond.

    He has only been to church once in the past 2 years. Maybe he’s more religious and goes somewhere else, i don’t know. She stilll has yet to mention his existence to me. I speculated that maybe they were in the process of splitting just based upon her sudden change in dress and overall appearance. In the past 6 months, she has gone from a plain 7, to a sexy 7.5. Her facebook pictures have gone from silly to outright sultry.

    Like


  258. on September 26, 2010 at 2:49 pm Gunslingergregi

    lol sounds like he may be more alpha than you think..

    Like


  259. on September 26, 2010 at 2:52 pm Gunslingergregi

    Or maybe you would like to believe that so that if she leaves him for you then it will have already been in progress perhaps he he he

    Like


  260. on September 26, 2010 at 2:55 pm Gunslingergregi

    If he just wants hot and you think your wife hotter maybe you two could trade fair and sqaure.

    Like


  261. Sidewinder, again, do not shit where you eat.

    You will regret it.

    Like


  262. Also, this chick is skank if she’s going to shit where she eats too. I predict shagging her will be like a visit to the Grand Canyon without the lovely scenery.

    Like


  263. Guns, before having access to her facebook, I speculated that they may be splitting up. I don’t see any indication of that now, however I haven’t seen anything, or heard her say anything, that demonstrates her commitment to the relationship. She has had multiple opportunities to bring it up in a non-offensive way, but she won’t acknowledge it to me. While he’s obviously a really nice guy, and he’s better looking than I originally gave him credit, I think its pretty obvious that he needs some serious lessons on game.

    Nicole, I don’t understand how the shit where you eat saying is applicable here. Please explain.

    I’m not going to make any bold moves. If its meant to be, it will happen the way its supposed to in time, and I will accept whatever the outcome. I’m not going to try to force anything, and if i feel like she is pushing something unnatural on me, I will resist. There is no rush to do anything on my part.

    Like


  264. Nicole,

    I am definitely interested in knowing whether she’s screwed around with other men before. Maybe even with this old dude? If I find out that she has, I will not ignore that bright red flag.

    Like


  265. Gunslinger, would you please work on combining your many rapid fire asinine illiterate comments into a single longer asinine comment? That way the rest of us can skip them easier, as surely none but the most retarded of Roissy readers actually takes them seriously.

    Thanks.

    Like


  266. The recent AHE is different than the original AHE commenting. Look at the gravatar pictures.

    Like


  267. whoops! forgot to link to the alimony video. this poor guy is from Georgia. I guess the lesson is don’t get married in Georgia

    Here’s another case in Georgia. Guy’s girlfriend gets pregnant, so he “does the right thing” and marries her. After a couple years he begins thinking, “I’m not sure if this kid is mine.” A DNA test proves he’s not the father.

    Naturally the court says he has to pay child support, which he does for eight or nine years. The economy turns to shit, he loses his job, his home, he’s living out of his car. The state of Georgia hauls him off to jail for failing to pay child support for a kid that isn’t his to a woman who lied. A familiar story.

    Now imagine if a woman has a child she cannot support… the government gives her money. Which is fine. Kid needs to eat. But this state aide should be more like a student loan, except when junior becomes an adult, or a ward of the state if you’re an unfit parent (not unlikely), then you get sent to prison for failure to make payments. If you ever do get a decent job, then wages are garnished.

    Like


  268. on September 26, 2010 at 3:58 pm Gunslingergregi

    ”””””Oh, say can you see by the dawn’s early light
    What so proudly we hailed at the twilight’s last gleaming?
    Whose broad stripes and bright stars thru the perilous fight,
    O’er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?
    And the rocket’s red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
    Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
    Oh, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
    O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

    On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
    Where the foe’s haughty host in dread silence reposes,
    What is that which the breeze, o’er the towering steep,
    As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
    Now it catches the gleam of the morning’s first beam,
    In full glory reflected now shines in the stream:
    ‘Tis the star-spangled banner! Oh long may it wave
    O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

    And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
    That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion,
    A home and a country should leave us no more!
    Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps’ pollution.
    No refuge could save the hireling and slave
    From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
    And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
    O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

    Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
    Between their loved home and the war’s desolation!
    Blest with victory and peace, may the heav’n rescued land
    Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
    Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
    And this be our motto: “In God is our trust.”
    And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
    O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
    ”””””””’

    What a joke.

    Like


  269. Sidewinder,
    if you are going to cheat one day, at least do it with someone that your wife doesn’t know, don’t give your wife to little credit, women have an incredible sense for this, it has to be extremlely waterproof so you can protect your family safe from harm. You toss into your family into your game, on what belief do you dare to continue. If there is a chance your wife will find out, dont cheat, and here, the chance is huge.
    You will probably revert back and say you only want to be friend with this girl, and yes it is ok, but it is not true in the long run, you have other intentions.
    im against cheating, i told before that some cheating can be forgiven, (if they find out) perhaps not forgotten, but this scenario that you are getting sucked into is more complicated for a women to forgive methinks. At least hide all traces so it will never be revealed if you cheat, this is too exposed.

    Like


  270. The recent AHE is different than the original AHE commenting. Look at the gravatar pictures”

    i wonder which one made the original comment.

    Like


  271. on September 26, 2010 at 5:05 pm Gunslingergregi

    ”””The Star Spangled Banner Lyrics
    By Francis Scott Key 1814””””’

    ””’This entry contains information applicable to United States law … Massachusetts in 1780 was the first state … New areas of law have been created that deal with the legal rights …””””’

    Like


  272. on September 26, 2010 at 5:07 pm Gunslingergregi

    The joke is that when the star spangled banner was written their already were men in the united states of america paying alimony. lol

    “land of the free”

    lol

    Like


  273. Bictopia,

    You are seriously cute. I can’t believe you previously balked at sending me your picture. Now what are we talking about? This church girl…

    Obtaining sexual gratification from this girl is not important to me at this point. I admit that I am fascinated with her beyond the feelings of friend. I’m not going to lie about that. But making her an f buddy is not going to serve my big picture interests. I’ve come a long way to have this kind of access to her; getting physical with her right now would jeopardize that.

    I’m ignoring the long term. I’m only making a move if enough time and experience has convinced me that a relationship with her is worth all risks. There would also have to be a series of logistical conversations to minimize all risks of detection. I’m a long way from there at this point. I’m just happy today because I feel that I wasn’t being a delusional creepster freak for the past however many months…my intuition is being affirmed, which is a relief.

    Like


  274. Bictopia,

    How do you suggest I insulate the situation from detection?

    Do you think this girl told her husband that she was going to ask me to lunch after church today? Do you think she’ll tell him that we’re meeting for lunch tomorrow?

    I’m not going to tell my wife, unless forced to do so. Should I start treating this as if I’m cheating, even if I’m not? Honestly, that would be my preference.

    I’m going to go into lunch tomorrow with both ears open and mouth shut. Its an unnecessary meeting…I’ve been sending her song material by email. I am going to see what she wants to talk about.

    Like


  275. You got the 90 IQ, 27 year old self-employed plumber who tells the truth, keeps his commitments and is a hard worker. He’s making 80k a year in his lower middle class social class and has young, hot virgins stalking him for a chance. He has interesting hobbies and spends his money on investments that he understands.

    Then you have the 140 IQ, 31 year old investment banker. He was spoiled as child and has a sense of entitlement. His fake coconut tan shades a jelly body. He hangs out in the club every night pretending to be a big shot with the bottle service. This along with his coke habit has him living check to check. His life is stumbling over himself to find another drunk to fuck. His self-esteem drops in response to his minds admittance of where he is on the ladder compared to his peers. Now he battles depression and anxiety for which he sporadically takes prozac when even addict friends are alarmed.

    IQ is simply the capacity to acquire capacity. It says absoluting nothing about the giant sack of testosterone between his legs. Confidence earned not via roids, xananx and alcohol, but by 10 years of challenging yourself to become a better man.

    Or end up the chemically altered/dependent slob cougar chaser 10 years behind in terms of maturity who’s quality of life is metered between month long boughts of major depression.

    We all stumble along the way, but the only determinate in how satisfying a life you lead is the willingness to stand up and brush off the dust when you take a straight right to the jaw. *squirt* It ain’t game, it’s the fortitude to learn game while women land shit bombs to your head every time you start a conversation with one. No matter our lot in life, we each wake up in the moring with the freedom to choose between a saturday morning wake and bake session, or to leave the front door and not come home until we have confronted one more fear.

    Like


  276. Sidewinder,

    Obtaining sexual gratification from this girl is not important to me at this point.

    I suspected as much. Quite early on.

    I admit that I am fascinated with her beyond the feelings of friend.

    The way I see it… she is a fascinating prop. What truly fascinates you is the confluence of elements (her and the situational stratagem) with a potential to create a drama and you are hell bent not to pull the brakes.

    I am not sure what is the impetus for his need, it may be that you feel that you stagnate creatively. Or your marital relationship is in a dead zone. Or both.

    She? Probably bored.

    Like


  277. on September 26, 2010 at 5:50 pm Gunslingergregi

    Sidewinder my consolation prize from my ex-wife leaving was that a dude spent 3 years or so kissing her ass online.

    She fucked him twice then left him he he he

    Like


  278. Whiskey,

    “There is a subset of HBD folks who for whatever reason refuse to see what makes women tick. My guess is to hold to a romantic view of society that faded away fifty years ago. But worked for most beta men.”

    This is obviously an effect of the pedestalization of women still ‘lingering on’, although it should be pointed out that it served a very simple and useful purpose in the patriarchy. If you want to coerce young men into marrying early, slaving away from their family and being faithful to their wives, you have to manipulate them into thinking that said wives are worth all the effort i.e. they are chaste, morally superior special snowflakes.

    Like


  279. on September 26, 2010 at 6:04 pm Gunslingergregi

    As to her current man after she had kid with him she wanted to send me pics of kid lol

    I mean wtf.

    he he he

    Like


  280. Geez. Hearing people talk about Hitler on this blog is like hearing people who have never been to sea talking about seafaring.

    Hitler used his anti-Semitism as a means to power. I think he believed in it, but, he hated Jews because they had power. Hitler wanted nobody to have power except him. That includes people just like you.

    Hitler killed more Germans than Jews. Hell, Hitler was a freakin’ Austrian. Think on it.

    Like


  281. Morsellaux,

    I wouldn’t say she’s a prop. She is actually a very good singer, and based on what I know about her, I can’t say I’ve met anyone, on the surface, as potentially compatible with me. I’ve never done eHarmony, but I’d guess she’d be my closest match by far. And I would really like to hit her petite little 25 year old body, even if it isn’t my driving motivation.

    Her motivations are a bit more complicated, i would guess. She married her high school sweetheart, and he is a nice cheeseball beta. I was in a 6 year relationship with my high school sweetheart, so I’m familiar with the dynamic. Luckily I dodged the marriage bullet, but it was the next thing to do on the list. Church girl is very cautious and analytical, by nature. I remember how I used to feel with my old girlfriend; I was afraid that I’d never find anyone better, and months became years, making it harder and harder to believe enough in myself to make the break.

    In the past 6 months she’s made a real effort to be hot, and I doubt that is just for my benefit. I think at some level she knows she’s trapped in something that is retarding her emotional development, as these relationships tend to do. There is no question she loves this guy, but not as a woman loves a man. If anyone is the prop, I think I am the prop to her. I represent older, established man. She wants me to validate her with my cock, if I had to guess. But I don’t think she’ll act on it. Too nervous, too cautious. I hope she channels this frustration into the music.

    Like


  282. Guns, why did your ex leave you?

    Like


  283. Grampa, let’s not forget Stalin and Mao, both surpassed Hitler in the body count. And PolPot had the best proportional ratio, killing about 40% of his people.

    From all the socialist movements, German national socialism, communisn, maoism and its PolPot version, the Italian fascism was probably the most benign.

    Oh, yea, let’s not forget feminism, another leftism incarnation, the human sacrifices unabated and counting.

    The AHE’s (fake AHE or not) contention that Hitler = Game is an obvious fallacy and deflection, trying to equate Game adherents with Hitler, and by the feat of false association trying to slip the notion that Game adherents are evil.

    Standard leftist tactic.

    Like


  284. Sidewinder, you both are a Mutual Prop Club! LOL

    Like


  285. on September 26, 2010 at 8:05 pm Gunslingergregi

    my new onitis is terminal though he he he

    It all fits together somehow lol

    Like


  286. on September 26, 2010 at 8:16 pm Gunslingergregi

    But yea prob to get me back for telling her to.

    I had no job.

    I had no money.

    I was about to have no house and she left he he he

    Allright so maybe there were some reasons lol

    Like


  287. Sidewinder, what I mean by shitting where you eat is having sex with a woman your wife knows. If you don’t hate your wife to hell, don’t do it. Think about what this could do to her and to your kids.

    What did your wife do to you that is so wrong that you’d even think of this? Get old?

    Well your little already past her prime 25 year old is staring down the barrel of old too. I hope she knows that you’ll shag her sisters in the church in her face when she commits the same crime you feel your wife apparently did.

    If you vowed monogamy, and you want to shag others, especially women she knows, you need to either dissolve the contract or renegotiate honestly.

    Also, remember this woman has a husband who loves her. If the guy shows up at your door with a gun, not only did you put yourself, but your wife and kids in danger.

    Just don’t go there, and don’t get near there. It’s a trap.

    Like


  288. Nicole:

    Amen.

    Some things are just not worth it.

    Like


  289. maurice:
    >You don’t see anything like the difference between a chihuahua and a great dane in human populations, now, do you? as well as all the other differences in body and face shapes that domesticated dogs have.
    <

    Pygmies vs some of the larger Danes look pretty different.

    Like


  290. Nicole, It’s a trap.

    Pretty sure Sidewinder does knows it.
    People sometimes crave drama. Against their best interests.

    Like


  291. Nicole, Grandpa, Morsellaux,

    Definitely good advice. But I don’t understand the trap thing. Is she setting a trap for me? Am I setting the trap for myself? What exactly is the trap and who/what is it intended to catch?

    I’m going to go into our get together tomorrow with eyes and ears open. I’m going to try to figure out what her angle is. Keep in mind, words acknowledging interest have yet to be said by either party. There isn’t really a reason that we need to meet out for lunch. We can’t play music there obviously. So, I’m very interested to smoke out what her intentions are for tomorrow. Any advice on approaching this meet up would be great.

    If she starts taking things too deep too fast, I’ll know that she’s got an agenda.

    But let me ask you this: What if she is thinking just like me, just wants to be together in any capacity for the time being, and is trying to figure it out? If her and I were meant to be in some capacity, how would you expect her/I to act? Or is any relationship between her and I a trap at this point?

    Like


  292. Sidewinder

    But let me ask you this: What if she is thinking just like me, just wants to be together in any capacity for the time being, and is trying to figure it out? If her and I were meant to be in some capacity, how would you expect her/I to act? Or is any relationship between her and I a trap at this point?

    Sidewinder, you are naive as to the underpinnings of your interest in this woman. That’s how the mind works.

    You’ve probably heard that after a loved one dies, a person will find it hard to believe they are really dead. There is a glitch in the wiring of the human brain. It plays tricks on us. The only solution is to acknowledge the trick – oh this is one of those brain wiring glitches. And then ignore the glitch.

    You have an infatuation going. Your brain is tricking you into believing that the interest is not primarily sexual.

    It is. Acknowledge that. And then make your decisions based in full knowledge.

    You don’t have to be fully aware of your motivations in order to acknowledge them. Chemistry between men and women is sexual. That’s how we are built. Your body wants to fuck her, and you will fuck her, given the chance. All this running around upstairs of would you should you how can you is because the woman doesn’t fit with your current lifestyle. So you’ll either have to find a way to fit her in, or not. There is no middle ground. Don’t pretend that there is.

    Like


  293. hat is that which boosts the fuckability of a young chap depends a lot upon the mental attraction among women for his personality which includes as said in the article – fortitude, open-mindedness, discipline, ambition, etc. But, he forgot to mention “Purse’ which is equally crucial.

    Like


  294. Nicole, But I don’t understand the trap thing.

    OK, he doesn’t. 🙂

    Sidewinder,

    3 sceanrios tomorrow.

    1. She is uncertain what is happening. She wants a resolution. The change of venue (public space) is a neutral environment in her mind. She may suggest LJBF, though not in an overt way.

    2. She is uncertain about herself, what she wants. She reads you. She’s hoping that the change of venue provides the environment/atmosphere for you to make a move.

    3. Watch out for dilated pupils! Also any changes like hair done differently (prettier), suggestive clothing, makeup etc. Any sign of it and rest assured that she is ready to spin your head. She’ll be subtle but the slope will be certifiably slippery. The drama ahead is certain.

    Decide what you want, what is your response to these 3 scenarios.

    Like


  295. Given the right opportunities , the 90 IQ kid with the solid C average could end up being the President of the country , ohhhh wait ……

    Like


  296. CR said……””On a side note, betas having more kids than alphas is not necessarily evidence that they are better with women. Instead, all it could mean is that the betas are finally getting their shot at aging pussy after the alphas have had their fill of that same pussy when it was younger, hotter, tighter and uninterested in baby-making. Number of kids is a poor measure of alphaness in this hedonistic day and age.//

    It could also be a possibility that Betas or Gamas are dating low scoring girls of 3 or 4 which are being untouched by Alphas. So in that case you cannot say that betas are using used pussy which has been younger, hotter, tighter which are still tighter and hotter. Pussy is pussy after all whether it is of 8 or 9 pointer or of 3 or 4 pointer girl.

    Like


  297. [Editor: Correct. Most of the world are “HBD believers”, but among them (at least in the West) only a tiny subset are willing to admit to their beliefs.
    As for “out of the closet” HBD believers, a large minority seem to hold tightly to traditionalist notions of male-female courtship, which explains their visceral revulsion to game.]

    The beta-provider model is pretty much instilled in most northern european men. Christianity ensured this by giving the beta-provider an advantage with monogomy. (Woman can’t form harems) Seeing as there are more natural betas than natural alphas, more betas passed on their genes to northern european men. Being beta is not all that bad. They tend to be more intelligent and able to cooperate better than alphas. (I’m using the roissy’s definition of the alpha male as someone women want, not necessarily a man wants to follow)

    Like


  298. A whole lot of effort about a whole lot of nuthin’.

    Like


  299. This explains why most men have a hard time letting go of the traditional notion of male-female courtship. The need to be a beta provider is in their genes. Even if a beta learns game he needs to be vigilant to not backslide into beta behavior around his bitch.

    Like


  300. sara
    A whole lot of effort about a whole lot of nuthin’//

    You cannot understand it till you are a man. Those who are in game they only can understand whether it is worth pursuing or not.

    Like


  301. on September 27, 2010 at 4:05 am Gunslingergregi

    ””””’sara
    A whole lot of effort about a whole lot of nuthin’.
    ””””’

    Yup pretty the way I have felt since I realized the us wasn’t a free country.

    Like


  302. Damn Sidewinder. I’m telling you right now that you can fuck any single woman you want whether you are married or not. If you believe in the bible (I assume so), you know that fucking another man’s wife (adultery) is a bad idea.

    You guys may ask why am I contradicting myself. Try to look up on the definition of adultery on the Bible times and the modern times. They are different.

    Like


  303. on September 27, 2010 at 4:50 am gunslingergregi

    Dam sara that just sums it up so well.

    The deal men get.

    ”””’A whole lot of effort about a whole lot of nuthin’.
    ”””’
    Just beautiful in its simplicity.
    The everyday story of billions of people.

    Like


  304. New to this site. Can someone please explain it to me what are shit tests and how to respond to them? Examples would be nice.

    Like


  305. Sidewinder, if you don’t see how this is a trap, maybe you’re just stupid, and in the grand scheme of things, deserve whatever you get for going down this road.

    You just want people to tell you it’s okay to wreck your life.

    Well go on, wreck it. Just don’t come back 10 years later crying about how you made a mistake.

    Like


  306. CR says, “Women are turned on by men with tight game as much as, or maybe more than, they are turned on by a man with good looks or a high powered job.”//

    But, tight game without good looks, powered job, etc. would be like playing cricket with all skills without a cricket kit which is fundamental.

    Like


  307. People will do what they want to do. Whatever way they choose to learn their life lessons, who are we to tell them not to. if it’s not life and death situation, either way, I won’t encourage nor discourage but leave it in the hands of the person to figure out. After all it’s that person’s life. Hopefully the person will learn from the consequences.

    I do admire everyone’s good intentions, but save your energy for someone who has more awareness.

    Like


  308. Yeah, it’s not a life and death situation until your kid commits suicide because he didn’t have a father figure in his life to teach him how to stand up to other kids who are calling him a fag at school.

    It’s not a life and death situation until your ex wife’s next husband, or the day care worker your wife has to leave the kids with because she has to work because you kicked her out for a bitch who’s going to leave you anyway, turns out to be a closet pedophile and rapes your kids.

    All kinds of stuff can happen.

    While a man is worrying about whether or not he can do better than the old wife, he should also be worried about whether or not she can do better than her old husband.

    The next guy might do worse than break her heart for a whore trying to trade up.

    Like


  309. Oh, and another thing, Jerry…when you fuck her, bear in mind that pussy just recently had another man’s dick in it. She could shag her husband and then shag you the same day.

    When you’re kissing her, you might be swallowing some of his sperm. So why not just cut out the middle man, and suck his cock directly?

    Like


  310. Excuse me, I meant Sidewinder. Sorry for the name confusion. I think Jerry’s on the brain because we might have a mutual friend.

    Like


  311. For fuck’s sake Nicole, what do you suggest I do? Preemptively stop talking to this girl? She hasn’t done or said anything inappropriate and I’m going to stop talking to her because its certain that if I do, her ex husband is going to eventually shoot me or worse?

    Seriously, based on where I am right now (plans to meet girl for lunch, nothing inappropriate has transpired or been said), tell me what you think I should do? Keep in mind that we are legitimately working on some songs together. I realize it sounds convenient, but I actually need her help on these songs, and I would if she were a gross fat chick. (And wife is aware that i’m working on songs with her.)

    Like


  312. xsplat,

    There is no question I would like to hit her tiny 25 year old body. And its new pussy. But that is really low on the list of my feelings towards her.

    As an example, there is a 20 year old girl that works at a drug store across the street from my office. Her body is crazy, she’s dumb as rocks, and she is objectively prettier than church girl. I’d love to screw that girl, and if given the right opportunity, I would.

    But in my screwed up brain, thinking through all possible scenarios, I see myself withdrawing from any attempt by church girl to come in for a kiss because I realize that once that happens, the timer on the lifespan of our relationship will start ticking off (not to mention risk to my family). If she pushes the issue today, I will be in a tough position. If I reject, she’s going to bolt. If I go with it, its going to get crazy fast and I’m in a world of danger. The plan as of now is to verbalize and intellectualize any discussion of feelings, giving her any validation she requires, while avoiding any physical encounter.

    It would be a good outcome if mutual feelings were acknowledged, commitment to continue working on songs affirmed, and some understanding that this is not going to be a full-blown physical affair in the short term. And if those things are discussed, at some point there will have to be a discussion of whether and to what degree spouses are made aware of the situation.

    Like


  313. Golden Tip of Day
    ———————-

    For you guys trying to bang the elite 18-24 crowd here is a golden nugget.

    Anytime you are gaming a young woman, and she presents difficult behavior…..view it 100% as being BRATTY.

    Nothing else.

    Just like a 5 year old girl or cranky brat.

    That is the best way to view it from a detached / neutral viewpoint; and allows you to react effectively.

    I noticed this by chance when I encountered my 6 yr old Niece being bratty and my 26 yo Sat-nite date being cranky in same day.

    No one in their sane mind would reason, rationalize with a 6 yr old how their behavior is disprespectful, or is a reflection of your character, or your status.

    Nor, would you candy coat it with “hey, you know it would be really cool if you could kinda stop painting the wall; it would make me feel better about everything”

    The most effective response is: NO !

    I think this is where most guys screw up; they see a grown Woman, in mature, provocative, and sophisticated attire and manner and believe her behavior will be adult and responsible.

    Not recommending infantilizing Women. Just serving up age appropriate response to immature behavior.

    Women dont want to be out of control; you are doing them a favor, and finally teaching them what their lame Dad didnt.

    Like


  314. i have never seen such a neurotic man, are you woody allen? why are you agonizing over some broad? why are you running headlong into destroying your families life? are you bored?

    Like


  315. Morsellaux,

    Man, if she set this lunch date up to LJBF me, I am going to be pissed. I have been walking on eggshells around her during this entire episode, and have essentially dropped all communication with her since sending her songs last weekend. For her to initiate a second meeting after no contact for 5 days, just to LJBF me, would be offensive. Of course, I don’t know what’s going on on her home front, so maybe husband is forcing the issue?

    If she tries to go that route with me, I’m going to ask her if she feels I have done or said anything inappropriate or suggestive towards her. When she says no, I’m going to tell her that I find her attractive and that I’m fascinated by her. And if she doesn’t think that I can handle myself as an adult, then she is free to walk, no questions asked. And I’ll walk with head held high and balls intact. I am not going to get relegated to orbiter status.

    Like


  316. dana,

    Yeah, i’m pretty bored. Wife and I have no real intellectual relationship, and the emotional relationship is weak at best. Being a lawyer is pretty shitty work. Writing and recording music is my escape, and I’ve always been pretty good at it. I’m not a singer, however, and this girl is a very good singer. In many ways its unfortunate that she isn’t just a cute young twit that I can flirt with, or even possibly bang, while working on the songs. Unfortunately she is a really smart girl who I respect and there is no question in my mind that if the timing would have been right, we would have given a LTR a serious shot. In fact, given the congregation, it would have almost been assumed that we would have got together.

    Like


  317. every day of my life i thank “god” i decided not to practice

    Like


  318. dana,

    Well, I can tell you that I am done being a lawyer employee. I’m starting my own practice (within a firm) and look forward to seeing if the practice is more enjoyable when I have control over my work and income. It will be a financial hit at the outset, but i’m treading water at the big firm, just billing hours for a salary. If I’m going to make real money, and have some control over my life, I need to take the plunge and get a practice off the ground.

    If it sucks worse than my current job, I’ll let you know.

    Like


  319. Anon, I’m not a Bible believer, but her husband is the biggest moral obstacle to me. I feel bad that its not my wife, but on some level i think it should be obvious to her that she does not intellectually fulfill me.

    Maybe its because I can identify with him: I used to be a younger, dorkier guy. I dated my high school sweetheart for 6 years and almost married her. She needs to do both of them a favor and file for divorce, before any kids come along. It appears to me that she’s come to the realization that she needs to grow up emotionally and take responsibility for her life and happiness. I think he’s still clinging to the security of the familiar, however. I remember that it was really tough for me to take that step into the unknown, but that’s really where I mark the beginning of my adult life.

    Like


  320. Sidewinder, you say you do understand that there are sexual feelings, but in the same breath divorce those feelings from higher and deeper feelings.

    My point is that the higher and deeper feelings are just another version of sexual feelings.

    Any feeling you have for this woman is sexual. Different flavors, is all.

    Like


  321. For instance, the greater part of my attraction to my love interest is romantic, at this point. With other girls it can be mostly sexual passion. Both are just different ways to connect. Meat loaf peas and potatoes or pizza – same difference. You are into her, and without sex, you would not be into her. Don’t flither flather around with this “you just want to be near her” nonsense. It’s cause she turn you on. Physically, emotionally – whatever it is – none of that would happen even 1cm without the sex underlying it.

    It’s about sex.

    So, stop all this blither blather. Fuck her or don’t. Don’t hang out and “see what happens”. You already know what will happen.

    Like


  322. xsplat,

    Maybe, but that’s a pretty broad definition of “sexual.” You are right in that I feel like I want to express my intellectual connection and appreciation for her with physical affection, but not in the old in/out kind of way. I know, it sounds really gay. But when I screw a girl, I objectify them as something to dominate, and for some reason my mind won’t let me go there with this girl. I’m sure I could be easily persuaded to see things that way by her, but there are a lot of other girls I flirt with that I think about screwing.

    In a nutshell, my big anxiety with this girl is that I cannot dismiss her as a girl I want to bang. If the circumstances were different, I believe we would be in a LTR, and it would probably be a better relationship than my current marriage.

    Like


  323. UPDATE FROM CHURCH GIRL FACEBOOK:

    “My mind is running in about a million different directions. frustration, poetry, music, my really long to-do list (which thankfully is half-way done), people saying and doing thoughtless things, my own jittery energy”

    I wonder if I’m the one doing and saying thoughtless things…

    Like


  324. Sidewinder, maybe we are using totally different frames and ideas to say the same thing. Try for a moment to get my main point. No matter what your feelings are for this woman, intellectual, emotional – what have you – no matter what they are, you would not be having them unless she were female.

    Your psyche has many attraction triggers. They all have something fundamental underneath them. No matter what it seems to feel like, it would not feel like anything at all, without sex.

    All of this is about sex – even if if FEELS like something else.

    So, do you want to risk having this woman lose the income from her husband from having a torrid affair with you? Do you want to risk divorce for the same?

    Please realize how incredibly naiive and yes, even a bit dense you come across. As if you really do not want to know exactly what you very clearly are doing.

    Everyone else but you seems to see it.

    Like


  325. xsplat,

    I made up my mind last weekend that I had done enough in making an effort to try to be friends with this girl. I didn’t speak with her all last week, and decided that I would operate on the assumption that she is happily married and not interested in me. I left it on her to demonstrate something otherwise.

    She initiated convo yesterday and asked for lunch date. I’m trying to figure out the best course of action here. I’m reacting, not manipulating the situation.

    It would be extremely socially retarded of me to assume that she wants to bang me, when she hasn’t said or done anything inappropriate. At the same time, I’m keeping my guard up. Do you think I should just blow this person off?

    Like


  326. Sidewinder, what are your goals? How can I give advice when even you don’t seem to know what you want? You want to shoot an arrow, but don’t even know the name of your target.

    And don’t tell me “just to be near her, and see what happens”.

    If you want to be near her, it is to have an affair. Realize that and stop fooling yourself about it.

    And if you do want to have an affair, why are you asking me about how to go about it? I bet you already have plenty of ideas.

    It’s kind of a matter of piss or get off the pot.

    Like


  327. Sidewinder, you are taking a traditional girls attitude. You want to set everything up just perfectly so that sex “just happens”

    Men don’t have ooops sex, sidewinder. Either make it happen, or don’t. Be a man.

    Like


  328. xsplat:

    goal: maintain status quo where feelings are ambiguous, communication lines are open, both seem to enjoy each others company, and songs are getting hammered out.

    When I say I want “to be near her” I mean that literally. When we talk, I can feel the pull and we talk physically closer than we have in the past and it feels good. Also, I want to hang out and talk with her about whatever because she’s a smart and funny chick.

    But I dont imagine ours would be the first male/female relationship with natural sexual attraction that was able to function without acting on the feelings, would it?

    I see two threats at lunch today: 1) she tries to clearly LJBF me, or 2) she expresses some feelings for me.

    But hopefullly she’s on the same page as me and just wants to spend some time together.

    Like


  329. Boy! Itsa beaver sized hamster, Sidewinder, spinning in your head!

    Like


  330. Sidewinder, you are a hopelessly lost cause. I’ve never met a man so incredibly unaware of the sexual nature of attraction between men and women. Only women have this lack of introspection.

    No matter what I say, it seems you are incapable of cognizing that you are trying to have an affair. You deny it, because you don’t even realize it. You’re fucked. Hopefully the woman will be more self aware than you.

    Like


  331. xsplat, you are a fucking asshole. I told you what the goal is, and what the potential pitfalls are for lunch today and you have provided absolutely no suggestions or advice. I have acknowledged all your points. On a true, keeping it real biological level, I want to have sex with this girl. I’ve been aware of this for some time and have never denied it. But in my conscious mind, the one that I am aware of and exercise some degree of control, I do not want to have sex or make out with this girl at this time. I’m sure there are a number of girls that you would like to bang that you don’t act on. Your black/white universe has no appreciation for how delicate and complicated these kinds of situations can be.

    Like


  332. “But in my conscious mind, the one that I am aware of and exercise some degree of control, I do not want to have sex or make out with this girl at this time.”

    Meaning, you want to work at it slowly.

    Meaning, you are aiming TOWARDS an affair.

    Yes? No?

    This is one time in your life to be black and white.

    No, men and women can’t be friends. Simple answer.

    Like


  333. What, it is not really about Sidewinder, there are 3 other people involved. That is what Nicole and xsplat see.

    And if you read the Silver Fox’s Tip of the day that got serendipitously thrown in the middle of it… sometimes the petulant child is a man. That’s why these Don’t do it’s.

    Like


  334. My advice is this – only see her again privately, under any circumstances, if you are willing to live with all the possible effects of having an affair.

    That’s the advice. It’s good advice.

    Like


  335. Sidewinder, I’m suggesting that you get used to the taste of another man’s cock.

    …cause if you get with this chick, you’ll be savoring that a lot, and not just from her current husband.

    See, this is why I tell women who know going in that they’re getting with a beta to conform as closely as possible to the media template, and always have a backup plan. You get a little attention from any young, hot thing, and lose your dignity.

    It doesn’t matter if 100 men have run a slow train over the girl. You’re happy to take sloppy one hundred fifty seconds.

    You don’t just want to bang her and get your stamp or whatever small ego validation from doing the next step up from masturbation. No, betas convince themselves that there’s something meaningful there.

    …and you wonder why chicks dig jerks. At least a jerk is led by his own dick, and not Hollywood’s.

    Like


  336. xsplat,

    That is how I’m treating today. Its “off the grid” as far as my wife is concerned. I’ll let wife know of other, open, music-related get togethers. But that doesn’t mean that I’m going to do or say anything suggestive. I’m looking at it as a fact-finding mission. I want to get a read on where this girl is coming from.

    Like


  337. And then what? What if she is open to having an affair?

    As I mentioned, I went there once. It was only meant to be a casual thing. Things quickly got out of hand. Drop a marble, it falls.

    So, unless you want to see glass all over the floor, don’t drop it.

    Seems like you don’t care. So, maybe your marriage is old. I’d do what you are doing if mine was. Any way out is better than no way out.

    Like


  338. Morsellaux,

    it doesn’t matter how many people are involved. He will do what he wants to do no matter what we say. He wishes we would tell him what to do to avoid taking responsibility. I’m sure he’s aware of the consequences.

    Like


  339. xsplat, No, men and women can’t be friends.

    It is possible.

    Like


  340. Yes, it’s possible, but no, it’s not sustainable. Not when there is sexual attraction. And what sidewinder is describing comes nowhere near close to platonic friendship. Platonic friendship with sexual tension? I’ve had it. While I was fucking my brains out with another girl. As soon as I got hungry I got infatuationed with the “friend”. You either wind up fucking em, or you stop being friends.

    You play with sexual tension, you will get burned by sexual tension. Go ahead and play, if and only if you are willing to accept the best or worse case scenario. Cause more often than not, those are exactly what happen.

    Naive people are so silly.

    Like


  341. what, He wishes we would tell him what to do to avoid taking responsibility.

    Of course. I just hear the sound of tearing metal and high pitch screeching when the train leaves tracks.

    There are people that are capable of being in the driver seat. He is not one of them.

    Like


  342. Morsellaux,

    I don’t want to be anywhere near the train. I’ll only safe my energy for someone I truly, really care about. There are those who are worth saving.

    I’d rather save my energy teasing you! hahahh!!

    Like


  343. “There are people that are capable of being in the driver seat. He is not one of them.”

    Agreed. He’s looking for an accident to “just happen” that will force the world to “just happen” to him, such that he winds up either single or with the new girl.

    Some people function that way.

    Like


  344. And Sidewinder – yes, I’m an asshole. So what else is new?

    Like


  345. what, I don’t want to be anywhere near the train.

    Rest assured that he will be entertain us with his whine later on.

    I’d rather save my energy teasing you! hahahh!!

    That’s my girl! 🙂

    Like


  346. I shouldn’t get all righteous about it though. Sometimes there are facts that we refuse to face. Back when I had to do such things, I could barely bring myself to balance my checkbook or do my taxes. I’ve even avoided knowledge of life and death issues, when I did know better. Sometimes some things are pretty well impossible to think about.

    Believe it or not, Sidewinder, I’m on your side. The way I see it, unless someone is blunt as hell with you and spares nothing, you will remain unable to see what everyone can so clearly see.

    That happens. It’s the human condition. Cognitive dissonance, and all. You can literally go insane from it. I did, once. Nervous breakdown. Had to divorce, and spend 6 months to 1 year recovering. Actually, I had to have the nervous breakdown 1st – because I could not allow myself to realize that I could not remain happy in marriage, and that my happiness was more important than those around me.

    I chide you, but for good reason.

    Like


  347. xsplat, Cognitive dissonance, and all. You can literally go insane from it.

    What about them lefties, they go cognitive dissonant all their lives and don’t seem to go ins… wait!

    What if leftism is a symptom of insanity?! 🙂

    Aww, darn, work… switching gears. See ya’ll later!

    Like


  348. It’s not just the lay rate and the quality of the women, it’s the quality of the lay itself. There is nothing that turns me on more than turning on a hot woman.

    Like


  349. LOLZ! This is like watching an argument between a dude who only likes college football and a dude who only likes the NFL. They both love the exact same thing, but they’re quarrelling over the details. HBD and Game essentially serve the same function; looking a little harder at reality and smiting the pretty lies. The scope is just a little different.

    When I was young I was taught that the world worked a certian way, and that relationships worked a certian way. Neither of which jived with my actual experience. Thus, I started looking for answers. HBD confirmed the ugly truths I beheld with my own lying eyes. Eventually, I discovered Game through HBD, and it all makes a lot more sense now.

    HBD, Game, you’re the slogan and the date on the same side of the same coin.

    Like


  350. Ja

    New to this site. Can someone please explain it to me what are shit tests and how to respond to them? Examples would be nice.

    New to game too. Shit tests and how to parry them are a fundamental game concept. You may be able to get the basic idea quickly, but it takes a lot of learning and practice to be able to parry skillful ones well, esp. if you aren’t naturally alpha. Hot girls, and to a good extent almost all girls (who aren’t convinced you’re way more alpha than they can usually pull), are very good at shit tests, having done them all their life. However they’re used to most guys failing them miserably too.

    In some ways female shit tests are similar to male negs – they’re both designed to take the other down a peg and/or probe him for weaknesses, but in a way that usually avoids a pure insult. However they’re also different. Girls want guys to pass them or anyway will be much more attracted if they do. Girls want guys to fail them in the sense of being able to dismiss the guy as sexually interesting to her, and thus thin out the bombardment of interest that hot girls get in any bar type and many other settings – and also e.g. in a work setting be able to have the upper hand. Guy who skillfully use negs (aka playful teasing on the charming side or asshole semi insulting on the asshole side) want girls to mildly fail them and start qualifying themselves. That’s because girls are attracted to socially and psychosexually dominant guys (alphas) and guys are attracted to hot girls they can psychosexually dominate.

    Shit test is a term that’s used very broadly. When first meeting a girl, if it’s not just a total brush off (this is ambiguous because it can sometimes be turned around into a passed shit test if it happens early before you’ve show your stuff), it’s usually in the form of a critical, probing question, where she’s trying to get you to get defensive and hence fail the shit test, disqualifying you from any kind of hot fast moving seduction. E.g. “Do you pick up girls in bars a lot?”

    In a relationship criticisms over unimportant or exaggerated things are often called shit tests too, because the ways of dealing with them are similar. What makes a shit test different from a simple criticism or request for change is the irrational emotional content which girls so often bring to them when they’re becoming dissatisfied. A better word than irrational would be subconscious. She probing you for leadership or weakness and acting out about the weakness visa vie her she’s finding

    Google site search is your friend. Examples:

    http://roissy.wordpress.com/2008/12/17/common-shit-tests/

    http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/08/14/relationship-game-week-a-readers-journey/

    http://roissy.wordpress.com/2010/04/27/the-ultimate-shit-test/

    Like


  351. every day of my life i thank “god” i decided not to practice

    So is the rest of the world, dana. Besides, it’s not actually “deciding” not to practice in your case, is it? I thought you failed to cut the mustard and had no choice but not to practice. Have you even passed the bar and found a place willing to hire your aspergy ass?

    Like


  352. God I come to this site to read the articles and the comments about game and its connection to evopsych, not to hear every tom,dick and harry sound of about how much pussy they’re getting. Stay on topic.

    Like


  353. bossing people around on the internet works really well, secret

    Like


  354. Looks like science has found evidence that social status is more highly correlated with what you learn as a cub from your parents than it is to the genes that you receive.

    Game can set you free!

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090225073209.htm

    Like


  355. Here’s one specifically about male hyena cubs:

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100824110916.htm

    Like


  356. Results from lunch meeting with church girl:

    I did not detect any agenda whatsoever. In fact, I’m not sure why she wanted to meet at all. We had a great time, talked for about an hour and a half. She’s definitely more comfortable around me. We just talked about a lot of random fun stuff. No touching whatsoever. No close physical proximity.

    The elephant in the living room (spouses) was not discussed or acknowledged in any way. Given this huge mutual uncertainty, I am very confident that she will not be the one to make the bold move. It would take some alcohol, and a receptive sign from me for that to happen. And I’m content to just spend time with her shooting the breeze.

    I’m more in the dark after our get together than before. What was her objective? She had no reason to feel at all obligated to meet me. Could she not have an objective at all and just enjoy hanging out? I would say that our conversations feel like dates, but with a big unspoken barrier to any topic becoming suggestive. Maybe i’m just perceiving that, i don’t know. I realize you guys only have my perceptions to go on here, but I’m fairly confident with my read on her that she is too nervous and cautious a person to put herself out there.

    Maybe this lunch date was as far as she will go- she’ll schedule the appointment, but any escalation will rest solely with me. That’s a pretty ideal situation for my goals. Honestly, I don’t think I could have made a move on her today. It would have been too forced, unnatural.

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  357. “Hell, my girlfriend wasted her entire college years with me and I was a loser!”

    You do realize that for a large part of human history humans married (and procreated with) opposite sex humans who lived in close proximity to them. Being isolated in small European village with an aging horse as one of your only means of transportation doesn’t lend itself well to finding a Native American located on another continent separated by ocean. Same reason we don’t marry human-like forms from other galaxies. You know, ’cause we can’t travel there, and we really don’t even know for certain if they exist. Now, people marry spanning a much greater geographic distance, limited to globally, not inter-galactically, obviously.

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  358. Name, I agree. I think the point i’m trying to make is that for most women, it seems that obtaining the marriage itself, or being in a long term relationship, is an end in itself. Some guys are like that, but most only want those things in connection with a particular person and absent the person they could care less.

    The analogy I like to use is the school dance: girls have their dream choices, their top choices, but when it gets to be the week before the dance, they are looking for a date to the dance, period. And oftentimes, they end up “liking” their date after he attains that status and not beforehand, which you would assume (i.e. you like someone, THEN you ask them to the dance…)

    Like


  359. Sidewinder–

    What if anything is the age gap with your wife? Do you have kids and what length marriage?

    She’s quite a lot hotter than Church girl, right? Though with a real big IQ gap with you. Are your interests really incompatible?

    Like


  360. Ok, that explanation makes more sense. Yeah, it’s kind of less ideal to retroactively work backward and “like” the person after the fact.

    “I think the point i’m trying to make is that for most women, it seems that obtaining the marriage itself, or being in a long term relationship, is an end in itself.” Yeah, well that is a bit of problem.

    Your school dance analogy: the problem: the girls who lacked the ability to make their dream/top choices happen. Yeah, life can be cruel to those who lack the ability to successfully compete.

    Ultimately, there’s going to be some level of what you view, from your external vantage point, as subpar mate selection by females. Take 6 billion people, halve it to make it simple. Not enough time to meet and evaluate 3 billion men. Oh wait, the number is somewhat lower because for a white girl, let’s axe all Asians, blacks, and middle Easterners. Ok, we’re left with white men of European ancestry, throw out the top alphas and omegas. The pool is further reduced. Minus the married guys, the pool is shrinking more. Keep narrowing it down based on multiple filters, but at some point a girl has to make a choice. Eggs don’t last forever.

    And, of course, there’s that pesky problem of geography. You don’t marry people, you never meet. At a different church, your church girl would simply have different hair color and a different set of talents. And perhaps it’d have been your current girlfriend you dodged marrying that you’re now bored with, and not your current wife.

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  361. If you have kids, you need to stay. Anything else would be selfish. Two parents at home for children when that’s what they’re used to, probably represents a greater need than your desire for “emotional and intellectual” compatibility with your wife. You never had that compatibility, and you married anyway? Or it was never important to you until now? In which case, reminiscent of Xsplat’s take, it probably never was important to you, but now you’re using it as a coverup to not have to own up to the sexual connection. If you’re wife is much lower in IQ and for some reason, it never annoyed you until now (I fail to see how that’s possible), then bore her with shared reading time and discussion of whatever genre will most annoy her (and if her attention span is that limited, it’ll be almost anything). She might just up and leave you first, which I think you’re sort of secretly hoping for, but you just refuse to acknowledge.

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  362. Doug1,

    Its tough to compare church girl with wife on looks. Church girl is younger, more petite. Wife is taller, more feminine figure, pretty face (she’s on TV from time to time). Church girl has had 0 kids, my wife has had 2. Put them right next to each other in their most flattering attire, I think church girl scores in at 7.5, wife at 8.0, maybe 8.5. But I personally put a higher premium on church girls younger, baby-free vag that I’ve never hit.

    I’m 5 years older than wife, 9 years older than church girl. Wife and I have two kids.

    I know many hotter gals than church girl, and I am more comfortable flirting with them. But I can’t tell you how nice it is to spend time talking with a cute girl that gets it. And its not that we’re talking about any really complicated topics or anything. Its just light, 2-way banter and conversation that flows, and I’m not even gaming her. For as nervous and freaked out as I am prior to meeting with her, I feel more myself talking to her than I ever do with my wife.

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  363. Name,

    Under any scenario that I would wish for, my wife and I will remain under the same roof until we are dead for the sake of the family. Because of this, i’m taking my relationship with church girl preemptively underground, even though she has never acknowledged a sexual interest in me and no situation has ever come close to even a kiss. If things progress to that point, any sexual relationship with church girl will have to be extra-marital, because I’m not leaving home.

    Like


  364. Sidewinder–

    Is your wife still sexually attracted to you?

    Like


  365. Doug1-

    Yes. That is and has always been the primary connection in our relationship. And from a selfish perspective, this has only got better with the introduction of church girl into the equation. Since wife has learned of her involvement with the music, she has cooked, cleaned and banged like a champ.

    But the mental/emotional connection is so weak that sometimes I just don’t feel like it. I usually have to get drunk and pretty aggressive.

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  366. Doug1-

    Given the awkwardness of the spouse issue, i’ve kept the topics of conversations with church girl in totally acceptable, non-suggestive areas. I don’t want to scare her off. But at the same time, I’m afraid that one or two more of these non-suggestive convos will convince her that I’m not interested in anything more than friends.

    What is something I can do, with plausible deniability, that can send a message that I’m into her, without coming across try-hard?

    Like


  367. Number of kids matters in the long run, though, in that bullies and assholes will be selected against, unless they continue to be created via internet game archives.

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  368. Schmoe, don’t confuse a provider with a kid maker. If the trends are unchecked, the chances for a provider to pass his genes would be increasingly slimmer. The Game applied to LTR gives providers a fighting chance.

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  369. Sidewinder, she might not have kids, but she’s spreading her legs for another guy regularly. When she brings her young, hot pussy to you, it’s already filled with her husband’s sperm, and if you put yours in there, some of that lubrication is his jizz all over your cock.

    Does that turn you on?

    It apparently does.

    Like


  370. Nicole, what the fuck is the matter with you? I don’t even think this girl is in to me. But if she was, and offering sex right now, I probably wouldn’t take it. There are a ton of mental/emotional knots that would need to be resolved before that would happen.

    If I had to bet money, I don’t think she would do it short of leaving her husband. She is not some whore temptress. She is genuinely consciencious, intelligent and tries to do the right thing. If she left her husband, even then I don’t see her doing somebody until she feels fairly secure about the prospects of that relationship.

    While I think she responds to general game principles, she is not like the stereotypical 25 year old hypothecized on this site. She doesn’t go out to bars, she doesn’t dress like a skank, she hates jewelry and other conspicuous signs of wealth and status…in short, she’s not what you think. And I can’t figure her out.

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  371. sidewinder,

    i’m reminded of a rather stupid yet apt analogy in reading your posts here.
    namely:
    a decision is a gas tank.
    the factors you’re thinking about are the gas that you put into the tank.

    you don’t factor in enough things = you don’t put enough gas in the tank, you won’t get anywhere.
    you start to factor in too many things = you put too much gas in the tank, it starts to squirt out and get all over you, your clothes, and the ground.
    keep factoring in more and more things, and eventually it’s all going to just blow up while you’re still standing at the fucking gas station.

    you got me?

    have a nice day.

    Like


  372. narciso,

    No, I don’t get you. I don’t understand why everyone thinks I’m fucking up somehow. I have accomplished exactly what I set out to accomplish: break the ice with this girl, spend time with her, get her on board with working on music, don’t fuck her.

    Its somewhat of an ego blow that she doesn’t appear to be in to me, but what can I expect? She’s married and I’m married.

    I’m pretty dense. Please explain to me how I’m getting gas on myself.

    Like


  373. Sidewinder, a little background on me, I’m an old freak. I’m very polygyny friendly, and very understanding of polyandry, both the semi-official and merely de facto kind. It’s just that I understand that most people aren’t cut out for a freak life.

    If you were, you’d have an honest relationship with your wife. You wouldn’t need to duck and dodge, hide and wonder. You’d be able to just ask the girl what her game is.

    So I’m essentially taunting you from outside the pen. I live in the deep forest you’re considering vacationing in. It’s wild out here, with many dangerous animals.

    I have an acquaintance who is a satanic priestess. One of her favorite pastimes is seducing Catholic priests. She looks innocent too. They all do.

    I doubt your little tart is a satanic priestess, but she may as well be.

    A decent woman wouldn’t suggest meeting you without at least one of your spouses present. I don’t care how she dresses. She’s a tart, and you’re a sucker.

    Like


  374. Nicole,

    I can see how you might assume that about her, but she’s a really liberal chick. The kind that doesn’t take her husband’s last name. The kind that attends a church without her husband for 3 years. Her hanging out with me is probably on some level an assertion of her liberal female independence.

    And its probably a safe rush for a chick that is extremely risk averse and hyper cautious. Even now, I sense that on some level she is terrified of me, so I’m sure she gets a thrill out of the unknown in spending time with a strange man.

    While I think you are completely justified in questioning my true motives, I think you are being a bit too presumptive in judging her. Girls are different, and it is possible that she does not have any naughty intentions, which is an ego blow to me, but what should I have expected?

    Like


  375. Come on. They’re racists for crying out loud. We’re sexist. Get it straight.

    Like


  376. Sidewinder, of course she’s not going to make any overt moves. She’s a church girl. She wants you to make the move so she can play the rapo game on you, or she can take you away from your wife claiming it was some kind of pure love.

    Women are indeed different, and don’t forget, very socially dependent. She might just want your attention for the ego boost, or she might want to replace her unbeliever husband for someone she can show off in church as her good little Christian boy.

    …or she might be a kind of predatory type like my friend who fancies herself a destroyer of souls.

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  377. Sidewinder

    Under any scenario that I would wish for, my wife and I will remain under the same roof until we are dead for the sake of the family. Because of this, i’m taking my relationship with church girl preemptively underground,

    American wives have been known to get a divorce regardless of what their husband wishes for, and a vicious one at that, when they catch their husband’s cheating. American wives counsel each other on how to detect it all the time. Your wife is on the alert about church girl. Danger, danger, danger.

    You’d pay through the nose in the case of a divorce.

    Like


  378. Sidewinder–

    I have the pretty strong feeling that given how you feel about your wife and how you feel about church girl, you’re gonna fall in love with the later if you two bang a whole bunch of times. Your wife will definitely be able to detect that and it will seriously mess with your family. She’ll likely divorce you. The risk is high.

    I think you’re far better off keeping it at the friends cause of music level, or perhaps moving it to flirting friends. That CAN go on a long time if she stays interested. She probably will if she hadn’t decided to leave her own marriage. But it will take SELF CONTROL on your part.

    You can talk to church girl and bang your hotter wife. You can also keep her on guard / jealous through your friendship with hot and younger church girl. Reassure her you aren’t cheating (without saying it directly unless she asks, then get offended that she doesn’t trust you, but eventually reassure her). But she knows you do spend some time together over music — that you have at least that in common.

    Like


  379. I haven’t read the “church girl” threads in any detail but I agree with Doug.

    A married man with an unfulfilled desire for a woman, when this desire is more intense than just physical — she “inspires” or “fascinates” him — is a man who is on his way to losing a grip on himself, including in other areas in life.

    Best to sever any contact with this girl beacause I suspect (based on my VERY incomplete reading of that thread) that you can’t handle de-pedestalizing her per my “she’s not special” perscription I posted in the Oneitis thread.

    Like


  380. PA,
    Unless you have about 4 hours you need to kill don’t bother reading the “church girl” threads.

    Like


  381. i just hope sidewinder videotapes the explosion of his life and family and life and posts it so everyone can watch

    Like


  382. @dana

    “i just hope sidewinder videotapes the explosion of his life and family and life and posts it so everyone can watch”

    dana,
    You’re too funny! lol!!!!

    Like


  383. I hate to admit this, but I think you guys might be right.

    Here is an amazing, real world, 100% true example of the effectiveness of game:

    Yesterday during our conversation, church girl mentioned that we needed to get together to play the song we’re working on. Nothing suggestive about that and my wife would assume that we would do that.

    So today, out of curiousity, I texted church girl: what is your schedule today?

    her: i’ve got plans 12-1 and stuff after 5

    me: cancel your lunch plans and we can practice [sent at 11:30]

    her: [11:54] I would have but you didn’t give me enough notice….[blah blah blah about rescheduling]

    I was cringing when I sent the text telling her to cancel her plans. It felt like I was being a pushy, inconsiderate asshole. But I remembered reading about the effectiveness o doing something similar on this site. Not only did it work, I think its pretty strong evidence that she is comfortable escalating this thing.

    I genuinely appreciate everyone’s concern, and I know i have posted way too much about this. I have a couple real world advisors that are helping me navigate the situation, and I do think the current situation is one where I hold all the cards. She will not throw any bold curve balls at me, but if I let my guard down (take her out for drinks), I think she will go as far as I let it go. I have listened to everyone’s advice, i agree with most of it and will keep it in mind and I am aware of the dangers.

    Like


  384. Laura, sorry about my obsession with this. In my boring world, this is pretty high stakes and I don’t want to fuck it up. In defense of myself, I think i’ve done a pretty good job so far and the only thing I need to control right now is myself. I don’t think i’ll have to play defense.

    Like


  385. Sidewinder,
    Doug and PA had some good advice. Why don’t you just take a step back. You seem obsessed with this woman and you are pedestalizing her quite a bit. The relationship between you and her is very charged right now, maybe clouding your judgement and hers.

    Like


  386. Laura,

    Fortunately, i’m leaving town for the rest of the week this afternoon. Here’s how I think it will ultimately play out:

    She will continue to allow herself to be put in situations alone with me, or even plan those situations. But she will not make the move, especially considering nothing verbally has been suggested that would make her think it would be well-received. And based on her temperment as I read her, she just would never have the guts to do it. Once these situations fail to result in any physical activity, her hamster wheel will start working overtime.

    She will then seek validation emotionally/verbally. She will still be pretty passive aggressive about it, but I think she will hint that she is upset about the situation. At that point, I feel that I can score the coup de grace. I will verbally provide her with more validation than she even suspected, shoot her ego through the roof, but then convince her rather easily that getting physical would be the end of our relationship, probably sooner rather than later. So out of my feelings for her, I am not going to take it to that level. I think it will work.

    Like


  387. @Sidewinder:
    Yeah, you’re fucked. Next.

    Like


  388. Sidewinder

    Doug1-“Is your wife still sexually attracted to you?”

    Yes. That is and has always been the primary connection in our relationship. And from a selfish perspective, this has only got better with the introduction of church girl into the equation. Since wife has learned of her involvement with the music, she has cooked, cleaned and banged like a champ.

    But the mental/emotional connection is so weak that sometimes I just don’t feel like it. I usually have to get drunk and pretty aggressive.

    Why don’t you make hay out of your wife’s jealous or preemptive “banging like a champ” now that your spending time on music with church girl? Game you wife hard. DO get pretty aggressive or more than that with her sexually, starting outside the bedroom. Find interest in making her more sexually submissive to you – sex slave games. You dirty bitch. Work the jealousy and social proof angle. Hint that church girl wants you, or better let her observe it in church girls eyes as things progress. Be off hand about it, from a wouldn’t cheat frame, but easily could. Play emotional games with your wife. That can be all kinds of fun even if she isn’t in your league IQ wise. Get her to really dress sexy but not trashy sometimes and take her out, showing her off. Encourage her to flirt some, up to a point, but always with the frame that she’s your bitch, and on your leash when she’s doing that. Lots of interesting stuff to do like that.

    Meanwhile have a flirting friendship and music partnership only with church girl. Enjoy the banter and add in sexual innuendo. But eventually have the talk about not wanting to cheat. You’re enjoying feeling that you are developing some game powers with lots younger girls. Easy to understand. You just sometimes sound quite reckless here re: church girl.

    If you can’t control yourself, then don’t take it in the flirting direction. Or end it if it starts spiraling out of control. Spiraling out of control includes falling in love with church girl even if you two haven’t banged – yet.

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  389. Doug1,

    You are a solid guy. Whether church girl is in or out of the picture, the marital connection has huge problems that really cannot be fixed. I appreciate the ltr game advice and I have employed it. My wife’s sexual submissiveness was her winning strategy in roping me into marriage 1.0. Basically, I have everything a guy is supposed to want according to the conventional wisdom of this site: young wife with higher dating market value than me, total hand in the relationship, and she is an honest, good woman. But the connection just isn’t there, and it has never been there. I’ve just ignored this or downplayed it since we began dating.

    And its not purely an “intellectual” connection that is missing. It’s not like I want to talk about chess or physics or complex shit. its the ability to talk about a movie, the economy, politics, religion, philosophy…to share enough of a basic understanding of history, cultural literacy, that you can talk about anything, not something necessarily high-minded. I cannot be myself with my wife because she cannot understand me or what I’m saying or referring to.

    You take my kids out of the equation, and there is no question I would not be married to my wife, and I would probably be with the church girl. It is very tough for my mind to reconcile this fact with my general preference towards being an authentic and honest person.

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  390. Doug1,

    I’m confident I can control myself around church girl because I am confident that she will not press the issue. Neither one of us wants to put ourselves out there as the sleaze looking to cheat, so I think the stalemate will remain as long as I want. At some point her interest will wane, or, her hamster/ego will feel so insecure that she will verbally/emotionally seek validation.

    But in light of my marital problems as expressed above, I’m wondering: maybe I should have a full-blown affair with this other girl. As I’ve mentioned again and again, my position at this time is that I will not engage in any physical affection with this girl. But I do think it is important to think out all the possible outcomes.

    Benefits to banging the church girl on a regular basis:

    I think banging her would knock her off the pedestal in my mind. She would have to lie, coverup, engage in a lot of unseemly stuff to engage in the affair, and if she’d do that right now, at the drop of a hat, I would question my current feelings towards her. And even if it didn’t diminish her in any way in my mind, she would be someone that I have already banged, which would lower her value.

    The bigger potential benefit is that an affair with this girl, if successfully executed, could stabilize my marriage. I realize this doesn’t seem to make any sense in light of the grave risk of detection, but if I have this other girl in my life that I can be myself with, I can focus on raising the kids with my wife and not feel so miserably lonely. Like I said, the lack of connection between my wife and I is not going to go away if church girl goes away. My wife can’t take a pill that will make her IQ go up 30 points. She can’t retake 12 years of elementary education.

    Again, this isn’t where I’m leaning right now, but I think all options should be considered. I’ve got to make this thing with my wife work well enough that we can remain in the same house together.

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  391. Sidewinder

    You take my kids out of the equation, and there is no question I would not be married to my wife, and I would probably be with the church girl. It is very tough for my mind to reconcile this fact with my general preference towards being an authentic and honest person.

    There you go. Yes, it really, really is. Enough to drive a person nuts. Good job on accepting the bitter truth – and congrats on a step in the correct direction of being more selfish.

    Like


  392. all of this hyper-analyzing and new acronym based ‘movements’ that pop up every day are doing nothing but contributing to our culture of extreme bitchassness. the ratio of people “out there” getting shit done versus the people online theorizing about how and why those types are succeeding is scary. I do find some articles on here informing and at times entertaining, but at what point does being so self-aware actually become counter productive? Wasn’t it just that – super-self-awareness and having the time to constantly think – that spawned this current generation of half-assed men?

    Also, did you guys see that fight outside? No? It was crazy. These two girls were fighting and one of her tits fell out! Yeah…it was nuts!

    Like


  393. […] and PUA Roissy wrote a great post on the intersection of these viewpoints last week. In that post, he takes a swipe at HBDers at the […]

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  394. It’s all about what you want: a wife, a lay, a social circle?

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  395. Sidewinder
    As i mentioned before, as if you wanted to get caught, i understand now why. So then, what is worse, miserable in shitty marriage or divorced and free and god knows what..

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  396. im not sure if your wife is so brain dead as you would like her to be, some commenter’s told you should game her, i agree with that.

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  397. My first comment, i didnt mean to sound as sarcastic as i might have, the latter option is preferable in my book.

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  398. on October 25, 2010 at 2:45 am scared of divorce

    reification is the erroneous use of a term or concept as if it were a single concrete thing. This is how “game” is used in the otherwise good essay. it is not a single objective thing. like music, which could be murdering drug dealers selling cd’s out of their trunk with raps about raping women or experimental conservatory faculty doing twelve tone. can’t have a good discussion til you define your terms.

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  399. on October 25, 2010 at 3:22 am scared of divorce

    before anyone starts with eliist race superiority/inferiority, I wish you would watch “downfall”, an excruciatingly detailed depiction about the last days in the bunker.

    Try this foolish, pollyanish idea-after you’ve seen it:
    “All men are truly brothers.”

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  400. on October 25, 2010 at 3:23 am scared of divorce

    blacks, white, jews, all reified ideas. each person each moment is different.

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  401. on October 25, 2010 at 8:16 am Gunslingergregi

    I was in that bunker.

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