Are Ugly Women Necessary As Stepping Stones?

Alert: Intrapickup squabble!

Is it true that an aspiring womanizer — or even a typical man in a billowy button-down who wants to improve his love life — must pay his dues with ugly women before he can achieve the goal of banging hotter women? The question hints at a significant fault line in current pickup thinking, precisely because it throws into stark relief the ego-shattering human impulse to judge men based on the quality of women they pull.

I’ll paraphrase a reader’s objections, who asked not to be directly quoted:

Roosh’s idea that you have to bang a lot of unattractive women to get hotter women is not persuasive. What helps is getting laid regularly, which doesn’t necessarily require cutting your teeth on ugly chicks. You only need one woman to get laid regularly, so such a strategy obviates the need to fill up your notch post with lots of uglies and plain janes. Ideally, your “regular lay” should be in the 6 to 8 range, but if you’re a newbie you may have to start with 4s and 5s. Picking up large numbers of less attractive women may give you experience with logistics and help with honing your routines, but that is the relatively easy part of game. Getting laid regularly, even if it’s with one woman, is all a man needs to step up to the next higher beauty class.

My opinion on this matter falls somewhere between Roosh’s and the anonymous reader’s takes. Roosh is entirely correct to note that men who use the “I have standards” excuse are, more often than not, men who aren’t living up to their professed high standards. It’s similar in spirit to the internet nerd sour grapes syndrome, in which hot chicks that are unavailable to them are deemed unworthy of their loving nerd attention because of some ridiculously trivial flaw, like pointy elbows.

Roosh is also onto something when he advocates for having flexible standards. If 8s and above are all you will deign to approach, then there are going to be times and places when and where you will endure some long, tough dry spells, and this is especially true if you are an average guy with average game and above average horniness. Unless you have rock solid inner game and unshakeable confidence that enables you to weather extended down times without losing your pickup magic or your aura of charismatic fuckability, those dry spells will hurt your interactions with women. Like dogs can smell fear, women can smell celibacy.

The reader suggests that the ideal route for men to take to avoid sexless purgatory while keeping the ladder-climbing option open is to gun for the decent-looking regular lay. This allows a man to avoid the dispiritment that accompanies fucking too many uglies while also sparing him the stink of celibacy that erodes confidence and spooks hot chicks.

And that’s where I part company with Roosh and favor the life strategy of the anonymous reader. Fucking uglies, in even small quantities and in temporary bouts, risks flirting with depression and slumping into a long-term rut. I don’t come by this view speculatively. I have some real world trials by trolls from which to evangelize. I’ll give you an example I’m thinking of from years ago:

I had spent a few weeks fucking a 5. It was only four bang sessions, but that was enough to alter my self-perception and mood. I had gone through a bad breakup and she (the 5) presented herself, fortuitously, almost immediately after the final severance from my ex. She was friendly and sweet, and open to meeting someone. I gamed her but hardly needed more than my first wave artillery; she melted quickly. She had a good body, so despite her plain face the sex was good. But I couldn’t help notice it was not as good as   sex with hotter women.

Just at the point I was getting the full measure of my single man’s confidence back, the 5 conveniently left town, rescuing me from the awkwardness of a messy dumping I knew had to be done. However, upon leaving, the sexless rut began to reappear. Two weeks went by with no acceptable nibbles on my penile line. A buddy who was a wingman at the time suggested I meet up with a girl he had failed with himself as a sort of friendship offering in difficult times.

“You’ll really like this girl. She’s totally your type. A solid 8. Very hot, blonde.”

“Oh yeah? If she’s so hot, why aren’t you working on her?”

“I did. I got nowhere, but it’s OK, I prefer brunettes. We hang out together. She makes me look good when we go out.”

“So you want me to meet her? Hmm.”

“Yes, you’ll thank me.”

We met, all four of us — me, the “hot blonde 8”, my friend, and his current girlfriend — late at night under cover of a dark lounge. I didn’t know where my friend’s head was, but she was no 8. Yes, she had blonde hair, but that was about where the confirmation of my friend’s powers of observation ended. From what I could glean through the dim club light and my alcoholic haze, she was no better than a 6, and maybe even a 5.

Nevertheless, I was horny, and feeling down. I could use the pickmeup pickherup. We trundled outside, into a cab, and I took her back to my pad. Inside my place, lights at full blast, I was sorely disappointed to realize my friend’s “solid 8” was a weak 4. I had never fucked a 4 before, and never would again.

Too late to reverse course, and bored into conspiracy, I lamely escorted her into my bed, and quickly swung her into the doggy-style position where exposure to her face would be limited. Her body wasn’t half-bad, but not good enough to compensate; my dick went limp inside her vagina. I imagine that has to be a girl’s worst nightmare; up front rejection in the form of a backturn or a wandering eye is bad enough, but getting rejected in the most softeningly obvious way possible when you are literally giving it everything you’ve got, your womanhood deeply committed… well, that’s gotta sting.

I couldn’t be bothered to make excuses. She dressed and left in silence. My blue mood hardened. I cursed my friend’s taste in women. I took a shower to wash off the dirt that had alighted upon my soul.

Two women, one borderline ugly and the other plain as unsyruped pancakes, in a row and I was done with the idea of it. Their company, however genial and accommodating, did nothing to lift my spirits or gird my confidence. Just the opposite, in fact: I fell deeper into self-flagellation.

One week after the limp-out incident, I hit up a local lounge and met an 8.5 whom I would spend the next five months fucking in gloriously hedonistic abandon. I have yet to share my bed since then with a woman lower than a 6.5. I learned my lesson.

I’m as horny a guy as you’ll find, but I have to admit not so horny that I’ll start rummaging through the 3 and 4 kitchen trash if there’s no four star restaurant available. Maybe that’s a problem of getting laid too regularly — you lose that wall-climbing horniness that would compel you to stick it in the most convenient wet hole. Ugly girls as stepping stones to hotter women sounds good in theory, but in reality sex with them too often — and too often can happen a lot faster than most men realize — is not only a time and energy suck, but a depressive drug that corrodes self-confidence.

Perhaps this feeling — this sex dynamic — varies by race, age and baseline dignity. If so, more power to the guys who don’t mind dumping fucks in seacows and butterfaces. I can’t bring myself to do it, even if it’s all the local talent has to offer. My minimum threshold in women’s looks is 6, under which it becomes almost physiologically impossible for me to complete the bang.

My inner game is strong enough now that I can afford to risk a month or two downtime without getting too rusty or too doubtful of my skills. I would only use an ugly girl who fell below my minimum looks threshold as a stepping stone in the most dire of circumstances, such as if my dry spell extends beyond two months, or I’ve taken to, ahem, “mood enhancers” that give me 24 hour wood.

So you might say that the reader’s strategy is the way to go if you are a high risk for lengthy dry spells, and your game and self-possession aren’t strong enough to carry you through a slump slumming it with ugly chicks. Alternatively, Roosh’s strategy — to skip the “regular lay” girlfriends and just focus on getting laid even if the talent available is not up to snuff — is better if you can’t tolerate any kind of dry spell, if your dick is indiscriminate, and if your game is good enough that regular pickup with little downtime is within the realm of possibility.

TL;DR Don’t make a habit of banging ugly chicks. It can be as bad for your self-confidence as involuntary celibacy.


  1. Hookers are a better alternative to ugly chicks, provided you fuck them right and they show it.


    • And provided you pay them well, too.


      • Not worth mentioning. It should be clear to whoever reads “hookers”.

        I’m not a big fan of hookers myself, but women should try not to criticize prostitution too much. It only reveals your insecurity when faced with hotter competition. Coating that insecurity with whiny idealistic rants about exploitation just makes you look… cute.


  2. Then there’s VK’s mud-turtle love …


  3. “Two women, one borderline
    ugly and the other plain as
    unsyruped pancakes…”

    Thanks, I needed a good laugh.

    Great post. Well considered.


  4. I think you and Roosh are in complete agreement.

    Roosh would never advocate trying to bang a girl who doesn’t pass the boner test.


    • Time for a more serious response. The above is was merely some initial thoughts I left from my Android.

      The point regarding the boner test is thus:

      “If a woman passes your boner test… what is the problem?”

      There are two scenario’s:

      a.) she gives you a boner, and therefore isn’t ugly.
      b.) she gives you a boner, yet you know she’s still ugly.

      In case of (a), why wouldn’t you bang her?

      In case of (b), how could banging her hurt your chances with picking up new women? Will banging an ugly somehow change your biological composition of your dick to not desire hotter women?

      My experience has been that a man’s dick becomes choosy… when I first started the game, banging a 5 was no big deal… but now, nothing less than a 6 can satisfy my manwood.

      So, if a girl is ugly but still gives you a chubby, I say go for it… she’ll only make you more picky, and give you more experience towards picking up a hotter chick.

      Regarding your original post,

      ” I lamely escorted her into my bed, and quickly swung her into the doggy-style position where exposure to her face would be limited. Her body wasn’t half-bad, but not good enough to compensate; my dick went limp inside her vagina.”

      Yeah dude, she didn’t pass the Boner Test. Of course you felt like SHIT afterwards. Your penis was punishing you for not listening to it. Become one with your gun.


  5. Solid advice–I’ve been there and done that and learned the hard way–wish you had been around then!!


  6. Not to throw too big a monkey wrench into the machinery here, but by this logic would it not be more pragmatic to hire professionals to maintain that confidence level? Banging a free HB4-5 might be less preferable than paying $300 for the services of an HB8 considering you’ll have none of the associated baggage to deal with when you move on from your ‘slump buster’ girl.

    I’m bracing for the inevitable shit storm of how “real men don’t pay for sex” next, but from a strictly pragmatic perspective, maybe guys like Advocatus Diaboli are on to something, even if it’s just in the short term?


    • I don’t think you can derive confidence from paying for sex. Quite the opposite I think.


    • The problem with banging escorts is that it’s addictive. You quickly get used to the 9s and 10s, and the regular 8s can seem like warpigs. Ask DirkJohanson above.


    • Real men know the real price of everything, including sex.

      Sex is free only if your time and attention are worthless.


    • All dating is prostitution. It’s just a matter of price/value negotiation.


    • on December 19, 2011 at 2:55 pm Too Smart To Fail

      The respondents above all make good points.
      The discipline required (assuming you have options) to refrain from dumpster diving will assist in maintaining one’s self-confidence, even during slumps and dry-spells. Incidentally, settling for a less desirable partner (or resorting to costly prostitution will bring you less satisfaction and adversely lower your self-confidence below involuntary celibacy levels.
      This, I believe is the crux of the issue, and why pursuing higher quality woman in the face of higher probabilities of opposition or mild rejection will assist you in the long-term acquiring top-notch female candidates.


  7. Sadly, you are right. It is even worse than you say, though – a man paired with an unattractive woman is judged even lower than a perpetually single World of Warcraft addict. It screams lack of self-worth – not to mention lack of testosterone and sex drive.


    • IMO I think there’s something to it and see nothing wrong with judging others by the company they hold, significant other included.

      Asking “Why is he with her?” (implying he could do better) is just the inverse of remarking “How’d he get her?!” (in the sense that she would normally be out of his league).


    • Then again it may be a reasonable tradeoff if she excels at housework and he’s not interested in having sex with here


  8. on December 16, 2011 at 5:06 pm Rant Casey - BR

    Roger that.


  9. very interesting


  10. The ugly have it tough enough without being pumped and dumped by seducers.

    I say leave ’em alone.

    One should always be kind to ugly women *who are not curdled* by their ugliness. They have character and they deserve a certain respect, esp. from good-looking, charismatic men.

    Good karma all around.–


    • My, how sensitive of you.

      Whatever happened to the fire-breathing, take-no-prisoners n/a of times gone by?


      • Pretty women are human titanium until that day they hit the diamond Wall and I have no pity for these privileged and shining creatures. They are prey, willing prey, and treated as such.

        Ugly or plain women who maintain their humanity and treat others well are some of the best people on earth. They are a marvel and they move me to emotion because many of them will never experience any kindness, much less love. Sexual ecstasy, without which I can’t imagine my life, is forever foreign to them, but like everyone they yearn for a moment of it. They will never have it.

        I have had it and I pity them. To go through life, esp. youth, without once seeing the world transformed by the drenching glamour of love?

        I would not recognize it as life. So I pity them.


  11. Not to mention that the most difficult “breakups” are with the least attractive girls. As this blog has pointed out before, if there’s a big difference between your physical attraction and her’s then you’re likely to develop a stalker.

    Worst girl I banged saw me out one night a few weeks after I stopped calling. I was out with a new girl and the old one came up and wanted to “talk”/cockblock. Long story short, lost the new girl as I couldn’t shake the old one.


  12. I banged a chubby 4 for a little while and kept it interesting by severely degrading her. I actually enjoyed it a bit in the moment, but after I came, I would look at her and get hit by a wave of shame that made me feel physically ill. I felt like I had to go take a shower immediately. It really was bad for the soul.


  13. Don’t make a habit on it, but I’m on the side of men who say it can be a useful stepping stone. The way you treat an unfortunate looking woman is probably how you should treat hot women if your goal is to get the notch. Spending a little but of time with the fuglies is a good learning aid.


  14. Great post – I’ve cut off communication with a bare 5 completely a month ago that I settled for due to being in a rut after a shitty incident. I was bringing her back to my apt one night when I came across a Russian girl from class, a solid 9) and she thought we were a couple, calling us “cute”. Pretty fucking embarassing – getting your dick wet is not worth being seen with ugly pussy and potentially ruining your chances with other hotter girls.


    • Peter Pan,

      Me think you doth worry about what other women will think. Women, even full-on lesbians, are virtually clueless as to what makes a woman attractive, and, being hard wired to be attracted to guys, are prejudiced toward finding big women attractive over small – the opposite of what most guys think. Better to be seen with a 5 by other women than with no women at all. Many a time I’ve seen hot chicks literally kfel over ugly women, repeatedly calling them beautiful, and meaning it.

      On the other hand, I find being with below-average looking women to be bad for my own mental state, and cause me to immediately want to be nowhere with the average woman. A psychologist friend told me that being stuck where you do not want to be is bad for self-esteem, and while an average woman might occasionally do in a pinch, being with one when there are hot chicks around sucks.


      • That’s what they say. Look at what they do.

        A hot woman may honestly think and say that a guy + warpig = cute couple, and that the warpig is not that ugly. But when the guy becomes single and starts hitting on the hot chick, something won’t “feel right”.

        Women’s hindbrains know what the game is all about. Women know subconsciously that someone who bangs fuglies is a low value male.
        It’s just indicible for their conscious mind. Perhaps a trick of nature to spare them bitterness.


  15. “My minimum threshold in women’s looks is 6”

    Same here. All else follows from this.


  16. Gotta slay a few dragons to get to the Princess


  17. I have literally just finished banging a 4 five minutes ago and my regular is a 5. The 4 is really into me and enthusiastically sucks me before sex. I am still having trouble really getting my game together, but last year I had a 6 month dry spell. I can tell you straight off that fucking 4s and 5s is better for your game than 6 months dry. I suppose for ch, six months dry is just not part of his reality.

    A serious problem with pickup gurus that they have trouble thinking down to the level of an average recovering AFC. And I am better than average in my local lair. About half of the guys are going dry, and have crushing AA as a result. I regularly open, get about one kiss close per two nights and about one bang in two months, though I am going to make a serious effort to improve.


  18. Fucking ugly chicks makes me feel dead inside.


  19. If she passes the Boner test and there aren’t any other readily available options, then it’s better to get the bang and keep the mojo going.


  20. Does fucking a midget lower or heighten your inner game. Cuz last night I fucked a midget and I’m not sure how I should feel about it. She was an ugly midget.


  21. I never regretted a lay.


  22. You lose your red ferarri and try to quickly replace it with a red Toyota sports car. It might be fast but it will never be the same


  23. Hey Heartiste, this got me thinking:

    Should game, or at least socio-sexual dynamics, be taught in middle/high school? It’s a significant part of life, and knowledge of these topics would help the vast majority of confused teenagers (at least the boys).

    The little that was said about sexual dynamics in my high school was extremely idealist egalitarian and far from reality, and did nothing to help us (at least not the boys). We got delivered phrases like “Do not feel pressure to have sex!”, which hardly resonates with the average teenage boy.


  24. So, true about women smelling celibacy. You need to be getting laid to open further lays for you. A lot of guys don’t get this, and never do. It’s always better to have the aura of having a woman, or a harem, waiting for you with open legs, welcoming your seed.

    It gets other women flocking to you like crazy.

    If you can’t make it, fake it.

    Strange but true.


  25. Very true. If you’re able to get turned on enough to fuck a 5, then there’s something wrong with you. The very definition of a 6 is “I’d fuck her if it was easy and my friends wouldn’t find out”. What would happen if your dad saw you with her?

    Fucking uglies is like eating McDonalds while drunk. You might get an urge that needs satisfying but the whole experience is squalid and you regret starting before you’ve even finished.

    Good game is 8s and above.


  26. Roosh is the go to guy on banging – foreign women.
    Domestics…not so much…


  27. Tis true. Once in my small town, in my beta days, shtupped a 3.5 to end a 6 month dry spell. catastrophic mistake: quality local women witnessed it and I received a demotion to omega level. Only cure is to move town


  28. ‘I couldn’t be bothered to make excuses. She dressed and left in silence. My blue mood hardened… I took a shower to wash off the dirt that had alighted upon my soul.

    jesus. where is the common decency in all this squalid behavior?

    these ‘uglies’ are human beings who as such deserve a modicum of respect. how would you feel if you were treated as shabbily? women you say were good-natured enough and pleased by your attention but were ultimately ‘dirt’ due to their deficiency in the looks department? i do hope all this is only rhetorical exaggeration. otherwise i can only hope for your karmic comeuppance.

    hearing this kind of talk makes me despair for my girls. with any luck they’ll stay as cautious and prudent as their mother.


    • Though it’s clear your sentiment is well-intended, the OP hasn’t forced those women to sleep with him. Part of the problem with the current dysfunction in the SMP is women aiming for higher than what a realistic appraisal of their market value would afford them. They shouldn’t expect to be rewarded if they willfully go into such an imbalanced situation, especially if it begins as a same-night lay.

      I also think that many of the current “uglies” are of the sort who could easily increase their rating if they lost weight, wore better clothes/makeup, behaved more femininely, etc. so it’s not always the case that they are hapless victims dealt with an unfortunate genetic hand.


    • Carolyn,

      Why is it not ok to treat ugly girls badly but women think it’s ok to treat low status guys badly? (i.e. bad job, slovenly behavior, alcoholic, nerdly, poor choice of clothing, poor eating habits, low iq) It is precisely the point of these guys that (crude as they often can be) men’s attraction triggers are overwhelmingly based on physical beauty and youth. But women’s are status and behavioral. It seems that the whole thrust of the modern world is to deligitimize men’s darwinian evolved preferences in mating while raising up feminist fantasies.

      In effect, this blog is a minor counterstrike against a world that has asymmetrically disarmed men (think of modern marriage where women are supposed to be free to do what they want and men are pressured not to insist on cooking, cleaning and subservience, but women still get favored in divorce settlements as if we were on Victorian terms).

      In such a world, being rude to ugly girls is a relatively minor sin and doesn’t even come close to compensating for the tendency to overly praise fat warpigs as deserving empowerment.


      • Excellent reply. Carolyn, how do you “feel” now?


      • She feels fine. Never underestimate the power of the hamster.


      • ‘Why is it not ok to treat ugly girls badly but women think it’s ok to treat low status guys badly?’

        neither is right. a little common courtesy makes life so much easier to take, for both sexes. don’t be part of the problem.

        heartiste’s physiological response to the less than lovely girl isn’t what i was criticizing. that much should be obvious. it was his lack of concern for the feelings of someone who enjoyed his company enough to want to go to bed with him. is she not owed a few words of reassurance out of courtesy?


      • Careful, Carolyn,

        [heartiste: feewing the need for an ally?]

        you might hurt heartiste’s feewings.

        [i bet your husband spends a lot of late nights at work.]

        And if you do he will tell his chorus of Beavis and Buttheads that you are really ugly, and oh, that will sting, because they know he can see through the internets.

        [i have no idea if you’re ugly, but it’s fun to insinuate you are and watch you dance like a puppet.
        though, to be fair to my powers of perspicacity, you do write like a fat-faced cunt.]


    • He didn’t say she was dirt; he said his soul felt dirty.

      And our cock doesn’t second our – PC or not – feelings. It went limp without him being able to do anything. Women can fake arousal, men can’t.

      Your girls will fare better anyway by being cautious and prudent.


    • “these ‘uglies’ are human beings who as such deserve a modicum of respect. how would you feel if you were treated as shabbily?”

      Clearly she does not recally how shabbily she treated that poor shlub in high school who nervously asked her out, but was deemed unworthy of her.


    • If she’s healthy, not overweight and hygienic I can look past the lack of looks. Also, a great personality goes a long way.


    • You believe in karma? What religion do you profess?

      Humans belittle others.

      Women chose to deny men.

      Men choose to deny women.

      Deal with it.


      • Forget karma…let’s stay down to earth in people having limits and that stuff happens.

        Unless you’re a psychic who knows you will always be phyisically superior to everyone you ever encounter, it is wise to think before you act.


    • spoken like an ugly girl. hope your daughters fared better in the genetic lottery.


  29. Pretty hard to even get it up for a beached whale, so from a physical standpoint it’s not really feasible to continually bang obese uglies.


  30. “My inner game is strong enough now that I can afford to risk a month or two downtime without getting too rusty or too doubtful of my skills.” — Chateau

    A month or two. Well, another reason not to get married. A month or two.

    To paraphrase our dear President: “I do think, at a certain point, you’ve had enough sex.”


  31. Would you recommend hiring a professional female socializer of 9 or 10 on occasion to keep oneself motivated?

    It could be a pleasant change from a series of 5s and 6s.


  32. Seems to me like an extremely long dry spell would be more devastating to your confidence than fucking a few below-6’s. After all, your confidence and inner game were apparently not effected so much, as you were able to land an 8.5 while supposedly in a state of depression.


  33. Doing ugly women to work up to hot ones isn’t game, it’s the ancient wisdom of men- although the two are really the same. Just because it’s tempting for some guys to stay with the easy lay doesn’t mean you can go from Rosie Palm straight to an 8.


  34. Indeed. Some say they’ll mount anything with two legs, but for me if she doesn’t clearly pass the boner test I won’t even use her for practice – I’m only going to be setting myself up for disappointment a little way down the line. No one got into the game to get good with 4s and 5s.


  35. Ugly women are horrible for your self-esteem…it’s dumpster diving or like eating a Big Mac when you’re hungry instead of say…something equally filling but healthy…

    I’ve banged a number of ugly chicks before I got into game…it was like some social experiment in how much I could bang… But ultimately it didn’t improve my game…or make me more confident.

    Inner game is the hardest part of putting all the pieces together.

    The tendancy to beta backslide is like deciding to put off a workout because you don’t think you need to go to the gym everyday.

    First it’s one day…then a few days…next thing you know, you’re back to being an AFC.

    After several months of this…I broke up with my gf. I had become beta and it was destroying my inner game.

    I told her we were through, I couldn’t see her anymore.

    Her response; “I don’t want to break up…”

    It was all I could do to push back and say: “I do….”

    Problem I see with ugly chicks is that they make you think you’ll never do any better and when you do…you begin to get scared of losing the hotter chicks…

    Bang decent chicks/hot chicks and you can then be much more discriminating as to what you want longer-term rather than shorter-term.


  36. I agree completely and have similar experiences.

    Know your own standards and stick to them. Don’t waste your time or hers trying to bang below your minimum threshold.

    But if you’re unsure of your threshold you may have no choice but to learn the hard way.


  37. yeah, and my boys get an earful from me too. their porn viewing is hopefully rendered less than felicitous what with my advice to imagine those ‘degraded’ actresses talking with their pals, phoning their moms, undergoing root canal, i.e. being ordinary human beings. two of my boys have been scolded for stringing along sweet girls who needed to find husbands.

    no, we don’t want ‘beta’ sons, but users of either sex are morally repulsive to us. our sons won’t be such if we can help it.


    • Seems to me you should have recognized the inherently tragic nature of life before deciding to reproduce yourself multiple times.


    • A woman giving advice on raising a man.

      Next up, butter tells how to sharpen steel.


    • You realize, don’t you, that you’re abusing “your” boys? Men are hardwired by a billion years of evolution to get aroused by visual cues. And you’re punishing them for it, because it doesn’t fit your idea of how things should be.

      Here’s a clue, Carolyn: being a controlling bitch mother will not make “your” boys respect women more. It will convince them that all women are controlling bitches and should be treated as such.


    • You’re an abuser. I hope you rot in hell.


  38. I’m with you, Heartistie. Banging ugly girls does not improve your game. Even if your inner game is solid and you are just horny, getting with a 4 is extremely easy. Fucking whomever and not taking into the female’s SMV and/or attractiveness can cause complacency. You want to constantly be improving. Even if I go through dry spells, I keep myself occupied through my non-sexual interests/hobbies. But one mechanism I use, and it is not for everyone + it takes a lot of psychological effort, is to NOT masterbate. You wouldn’t believe after approximately 10 days how motivated you become to approach attractive women when you refuse to self-satisfy. It increases testosterone, and helps in the gym.


  39. I think the difference between the two schools of though is where one gets game confidence. If your confidence comes from your ability to game girls, then you need to regularly pull them to maintain that confidence. If your confidence comes from somewhere else, than you can go an extended period of time without getting any and wal right up to the hottest girl in the room like you just banged a half an hour before.

    A few of my friends have to go home with someone every night. I would be embarassed to be standing next to some of the girls that they walk out of bars with their arms around.

    I honestly don’t buy into women being able to pick up on your ‘celibacy’, I’ve pulled most of my hottest girls after dry spells. Maybe it helps that most of mine come from just being too lazy or bored to go to bars regularly.

    VK said it best a month or so ago… drunk sex with a mud turtle is often less satisfying then just watching porn and getting to bed early.


  40. Seems like solid advice. I wonder, heartiste, what 5s, 6s, 7s, and 8s looks like your books. Also, I think alot of your readers would also like to know how you got started in game: what was your drive.


  41. This goes double or sextuple for old ladies. Over 45 = ex-women.


  42. The only way for a guy to maintain his self respect when fucking a 4-5 or, heaven forfend, something worse, is to do it with as much cruelty as he can get away with. Most likely, there will need to be bruises – so be sure to put those where no one will see and ask her too many questions about. She will not really mind it: but there is always the danger that this one will fall into psychotic love with you. THAT is the scary thing. This subject has been with us from the dawn of time and I am not the best one to give advise.
    FWIW, the author of this piece must have lived in England for at least a while.


  43. I think I know where you’re coming from. I was about to lose my virginity the other day with this chunky 5. But I went soft as went into her. Now this wouldn’t be a big deal but it happened again when I tried again 5 minutes later. I don’t even know if I’m capable of slumming it.


  44. Think I’d rather pay for a hot whore than bang an ugly or fat chick. My dick does have standards and I’d rather not lower my expectations along with my self-esteem.


  45. I concur. I just lost my virginity to a girl I would describe as a 4. It was incredibly boring. I lost my erection twice. My reaction was “Damn is this really what drives human civilization?”. I was told by her that she had a great time blah and given how wet she was I believe her. And now she won’t get off my nuts. But I find it rather boring and a waste of time. Since it happened I’ve been severely less interested in women in general. The whole affair is rather depressing.


  46. Low value women are often confused about the seriousness of their un-fuckability. But the guys who fall drunkenly and stupidly into bed with them are not. But they will eventually sober up, and stupidity always recedes right after the bang.
    A wise man takes all this into account and puts on his psychic armor beforehand just like he puts on his condom-armor. If its streachted tight its right. And he hums to himself, “A mans gotta do what a mans gotta do” as he dumps his load and dives for the door.


  47. Another, somewhat darker, self respect preserving strategy (when with a 5-ish American woman) is to exert as much cruelty as you reasonably think you can get away with. During the bang. Most likely, that will produce some bruising on her body. So take care to leave the marks more like on her ass cheeks than on the places where she will be forced to explain complicated facts that she will never be able to explain honestly to anyone.. (To keep you out of jail)


  48. You mention smelling like celibacy, but what if you’re losing your game and are only able to go so far as making out with women?
    Does his negate the smell of celibacy? How does one get their game back after losing it?


  49. few thoughts
    – if you’re macking on a girl way beneath you, she will let you know

    – if you could do better than the girl you’re currently with, other women will let you know

    – if the girl you’re with is way higher, other guys will let you know

    – good lookin girls also make my wewe stiff

    – if you’re getting into PUA because you’re totally unsuccessful with women, you’re probably in the 3-4 range and should be ecstatic if what you learned lands you a 5-6.


  50. Not entirely related, but the chateau may want to comment in a future post:


  51. Also here is a lead for all you home-on-friday-night playas — Foreign Exchange Students

    It is strange, all these upper-class girls from around the world come to America for college, and then they spend all their time hanging out with other foreigners doing nothing. If they get into relationships, its usually like hand-holding junior high stuff. If you can penetrate this group with some local knowledge of bars/bands/parties/shows, it’s total a gold mine.

    Most big universities have a certain coffeeshop or lounge where they hang out. Or find the for-profit scam art or business colleges and the nearby places. (You probably need to be in a major city like NYC or SF.)

    I know of maybe a dozen successful foreign student relationships including a couple of my own. These girls wouldn’t be here if they didn’t secretly want to be ridden by a cowboy.


  52. A grateful ugly woman with a good body who naturally does what you tell her can be a self-esteem boost.

    But slumming for the sake of not getting anything else is bad.


  53. “Infection: Avoid the Unhappy and Unlucky

    You can die from someone else’s misery – emotional states are as infectious as disease. You may feel you are helping the drowning man but you are only precipitating your own disaster. The unfortunate sometimes draw misfortune on themselves; they will also draw it on you. Associate with the happy and fortunate instead.”

    It would seem that this applies to the women we choose to bang as well. No matter how high your self value and internal image are, dumpster diving still covers us in shit and no one likes a guy who smells like a horse’s arse.


  54. Nodoby is posting, it’s that depressing.


  55. Sorry, just like any endeavor you have to start at the bottom rung, unless you happen to be gifted with charm and good looks at an early age.

    Here’s an analogy: If you’re Tom Cruise’s son, you can get million-dollar roles when you’re 16 without paying dues. For the rest of us, we have to scratch out bit parts in crappy slasher films until we get a spot on ER. Banging your way up the ladder is no different. All else is a pipe dream. Get real.


  56. Agree with Heartiste to a degree here.

    The whole principle of Get Out There & F*** Ten Other Women is only valid when you find women of a similar calibre to your Oneitis. Doing Fuglies and fatties is actually counter productive.

    If you do otherwise- i.e. a hole is a goal!- (as I have found in my past shitty 10 months), the only memory you are forgetting is your own sense of self worth in the sexual marketplace.


    • I imagine a fembot reading Radfem hub and Heartiste.

      Short-haired radical femcunts may sound to her just a little bit excessive when they talk about killing male babies. But Heartiste will sound like pure evil just because he bangs hot chicks.

      Feminism declared war on men. It’s been insidious so far. Radfems are at least upfront about their intentions.
      I really hope that irrational extremism is the swan song of a failing ideology. It could be the case for islam and its terrorists. Maybe it applies to feminism and radfem. At least, I hope it will apply soon enough to save male babies from being buried in the backyards.

      At the same time, we’re talking for the most part about ugly lesbian delusional old hags. Who wants to fuck them anyway?


  57. nicely summed up! Indeed, even if someone has long dry spells going for limping beauties should be avoided. However, this is applicable only for PUAs not for those who have lifetime dry spells.


    • yeah, there are two things going on here. First, I suppose an ugly AFC should start off just getting used to girls. But, but, but, one of the problems with ugly bitches is that their minds aren’t right, (there was a post on this, IIRC) they will be bitchier than normal girls (and expect a ring to prove that they have decent SMV), and possibly have amazingly repulsive personalities followed by stage 4 clinginess.

      And another problem is that there’s a glass ceiling of hotness where said AFC will still find himself acting like an idiot, befuddled by the beauty of the chick he is trying to game, regardless of how many war-pigs he’s slain (translation for the RPG player, you don’t level up in the real world by slaying 1-hp monsters). There is really no upside here for decent looking guys.

      On the other hand, for the host’s dry spells, a guy who is used to banging 9’s and 8’s would probably be better off setting a bottom limit of a 6 while setting strict ground rules. You don’t want to lose opportunities because you’re being nice to a girl. If you live inside a city within walking distance to bars, you may be able to set up a prolonged booty-call scenarios, so you can pursue before closing time and still have a 2am buddy. Every time I’ve given primetime bar hopping time to a girl like that, it just makes me resent them. weeknight drinking only.

      But a 6 month dry spell? well, I agree with the host’s last paragraphs, the scars to the psyche and to your public SMV are terrible for being seen with a sub-6.


  58. War of the sexes… Uncensored. Smells like blood, and I fuckin love it!
    Patriarchy is dead, long live War!


    “The question hints at a significant fault line in current pickup thinking, precisely because it throws into stark relief the ego-shattering human impulse to judge men based on the quality of women they pull.”

    This sounds like a gratuitous concession to fembots. They often argue that men value beauty only to feed their ego, comply to the social pressure on women to be pretty, and intimidate other males with a trophy wife/partner.

    The reality is that we value beauty because we are genetically designed to feel like a god whenever we put our dick inside a hot female.
    However, the rest of your post made that point crystal clear.


  59. Roosh is entirely correct to note that men who use the “I have standards” excuse are, more often than not, men who aren’t living up to their professed high standards.

    I completely agree and admit I’ve done this myself. Despite my advocacy that guys stop using this excuse, I still see it all the time in the community.

    Ugly girls as stepping stones to hotter women sounds good in theory, but in reality sex with them too often — and too often can happen a lot faster than most men realize — is not only a time and energy suck, but a depressive drug that corrodes self-confidence.

    Agreed. Good in theory, but in practice it’s a whole other story. I’ve since learned that having a decent looking “main” works well for building and/or adding to the lineup. It keeps you from coming off as desperate (to upgrade) and allows you to have tighter standards.


  60. Probably if instead of ugly you said “older”, this piece would have been softer.

    I think experiencing with cougars (not under the threshold of bad ugliness, of course) can help one’s game.


    • Yeah, a woman over 35 who’s well-maintained can be useful as ‘training wheels’.


      • But a “cougar” is by definition a woman who is denying her own fiminine values!

        A woman REALLY wants to fuck a man of higher social value. If she’s banging a young guy, she is “settling” or has given up.

        Maybe that’s rational and maybe its not – reverses the original question, doesn’t it?


  61. Yes. But Roosh also says that any girl you bang must past the “boner test” (which is my personal philosophy, btw). The problem with you banging the blonde wasn’t that she was a 4, but that she obviously didn’t meet that standard. There is some guy out there who’s going to be able to pitch a tent for that 4, and nailing her would make him a happy man. He should fuck her, despite the barbs of his detractors.

    Generally, I think guys do themselves a disservice when they go by a girl’s rating. Sticking to the boner test will make for happier—and more frequently laid—men.


    • No it won’t. Social reality is the reality for the vast majority of humans. I can’t say if this is good or bad, just that it is so, and perhaps because it served some sort of evolutionary purpose.


      • You’re questioning is understandable, but you’re not looking at this correctly. (Due to you being a woman.)

        This is all down to a man’s mental frame. If the girl in question passes his boner test – no man should or likely is affected by damage to social proof by shagging what is generally considered beneath him. He will enjoy the experience and leave the encounter happy that he emptied his balls. His mental frame will be positive. No one will look at him unfoavouably if his inner monologue is “she was fat you say? Shit, I just bent her over, slammed my dick in that ghetto booty and gave her my reggae-reggae special.” However, if a girl does not pass the boner test a man will have to nigh on force himself to shag her. The experience will not be pleasant, not be fun and his mental frame will be damaged causing regret for slumming it. This will affect his self-belief and outward behaviour, leading to it possibly affecting his attitude to sex (e.g. the virgin above who couldn’t get it up with a monster and now doesn’t see a point to sex) and/or future relations with women (girls will pick up on a man who feels shit for slumming it.)


        As echoed by others, they’re is no problem if she passes the boner test – we have all shagged a conventionally ugly girl who gets the fire burning (e.g. butterface yet with double G’s) – and it is a one time only deal. If she doesn’t I cannot see much long term good coming from it.

        The common belief is, of course, that for novices to women and game you must pay your dues by fucking uggers before you can get to the quality. However, a point that has been overlooked with giving this advice to these inexperienced individuals is that while they may force the motions in chatting up and/or grind out sex with an unappealing girl, more often than not they will become attached due to their desperation and cling to this girl. Even though she may be completely unsuitable and/or unappealing.


      • I don’t think you get it because it’s difficult to see the topography of a forest when you’re standing in the center of it.

        Let’s say you’re very alpha, and like most, could give a rat’s ass what most men think of your shagging mates. Understanding social dynamics, you may proudly show off your higher rated choices to the cheering crowds, but you are not going to let anyone shame you into dumping Helga with whom you can cut lose and fuck with a level of impact that would literally break a more fragile woman.

        She makes you steak and eggs for breakfast. You leave her place with your manhood nicely recognized. I won’t even say validated because well, you don’t need it.

        I’m feeling you.

        …but you have no idea whatsoever is wriggling in the dark recesses of the minds of your underlings.

        I have actually heard the words come out of a grown man’s mouth, “I want to date a skinny girl so other guys can look at what I have and know that I’m the man.”

        I’m the type to not just take one guy’s words as truth for all, so I did some asking around. I found that most normal guys are affected by social proof. Basic beauty may be universal, but the reaction to it beyond the erection is based on social considerations.

        Most humans are insect like that way. It doesn’t matter what is more fit or more desirable to them, they’re going to go whichever way is most socially convenient.

        Though it is fascinating to note that boners, and not feminine fashion, determine what is beautiful and what isn’t, it matters very little if people are so stupid and weak that beauty is socially irrelevant.

        The slaves who passed the boner test and got house duty were still slaves at the end of the day. Scores of non Jewish Russian women here in Israel pass the boner test with flying colors, but only the ones who got lucky and caught the attention of the more independent guys or another non Jewish Russian, ever get to see a real relationship.

        I think if a guy is worried at all about what other people will think of his choices, he should definitely stay away from the ugly and otherwise socially inconvenient because shagging them anyway won’t make them feel good. It will make them feel bad because they are too stupid to feel otherwise about going against the herd.


      • Well written. You have made some clear and great points. Social proof does exist, humans are inherently pack animals and humans do follow societal expectations.

        Social proof is certainly a powerful thing. As you rightly point out, there are a great many minority groups that would refuse to enter a relationship with someone outside of that minority. However, while Caleb the Jew may not marry a Christian westerner due to it upsetting mummy, he would climb over coals for a ONS with an attractive gentile.

        This is where the seperation lies. ‘Shagging’ and ‘a shag’ are two different things. There is no issue with roggering an unappealing woman who turns you on, (the boner test) if it is a one time deal. As you rightly point out, anything longer will not make a man feel good as he is slumming it.

        It is certainly true that the men who are the most likely to shag ugly women as stepping stones are the most likely to be harmed by it. Of course, it is nonsensical to ever suggest that someone should sleep with someone who is incompatible (whether physically a turn off, rotten of personality or entirely different of outlook). It’s asking for trouble in the long term and any man who does clearly does not rate himself.

        ‘I have actually heard the words come out of a grown man’s mouth, “I want to date a skinny girl so other guys can look at what I have and know that I’m the man.”’

        All true and many men I have met are similar, though I find this outlook frightening. Get him to this website STAT!


      • I’m afraid it wouldn’t help. I have printed out the 16 commandments for this individual, and let’s just say that there is still no cure for stupidity.


  62. You guys have to understand that Roosh’s lifestyle of traveling forces him into irregular sex and uncommitment, and into the arms of ugs.


  63. on December 17, 2011 at 10:22 am Dr Van Nostrand

    Assanova(realmademen) covered this in “Always be fucking”
    he mentioned the story of Kiss singer Gene Simmons who was seen once with a mediocre chick-when asked about it he said “you cant have filet mignon everyday,sometimes you need a McDonalds”

    I suppose its a question of supply and demand variables.As you said-how high is your sex drive and thirst for variety vs the pool of available hot chicks.
    Heck if Gene Simmons has to settle everynow and then ,I should imagine the average highly sexually charged player would have to stoop as well.

    My sex drive is high but not so high and my thirst for variety not so intense that I would bonk rogue chicks every now and then.But is there anyway to tell if an ugly chick would be good in bed so atleast there is a screening process!


    • good point. i wanna eat good steak every night but i dont let myself go hungry if i cant have it. i have a bigmac once in a while and its damn good. will apply same logic to chicks.


  64. Avoiding the “stink of celibacy” by lowering standards sounds like sexual Keynesianism. Keeping the wheels greased when capacity would otherwise be underutilized is a strategy for not losing it due to not using it. I’m usually not a Keynesian, but I have to think that the concept might work in the sexual realm.


    • Hmm…so banging an ug to “stay frosty” is a sexual corollary of the broken window fallacy. If Hayek had written about game, he would advise reserving your resources for the most promising targets.


  65. on December 17, 2011 at 11:02 am Steve from Florida

    Foist, as they used to say in B’klyn.


  66. I think its indispensable to one’s sexual skills to have a lover that you click well with and can have a lot of sex with. I reached this conclusion early on, after I had slept with my first married woman and a few more thereafter. The married women I slept with at the time were several orders of magnitude better as lovers in terms of skills. I feel this also applies to men.


    • Nonsense.

      Men get better at sex due to having lots of partners. Men place a higher status on themselves if they’ve banged a lot of women. When a man has many notches on his belt, he feels much more sexually confident and aggressive. This carries over into life (he can sexually escalate with more confidence and be fully upfront about his desires), the act (he will feel free to ravage as he so desires) and performance (sexual anxiety is a thing of the past and he can slip fully into the moment by banging away with glee).

      Women get better at sex when it is in their best interest to do so. As men we rate a woman’s sexual skills based on how much effort she puts in (everything from moans to how forthcoming she is with the blowjobs). The reality is women only put the effort in if they are trying to keep a man around. If they have the means to keep a man around (beauty, youth, a ring on their finger), they will quickly stop being quality lovers. This is why beautiful women can be lazy and poor lovers as they know their beauty is enough to keep a boyfriend around. This is also why fat girls have a reputation for being freaks in bed and having amazing blowjob skills. They go the extra mile because they lack the visual means to keep a man around.

      Your married lover was not a great shag because she had honed her skills with her husband,* she was a great shag because she was giving her all to seduce a new and appealing lover.

      *By the way, what a funny concept! She married for fucks sake! Sex for them would be a thing of the past. £100 says they weren’t even shagging in the six months prior to you coming along.


  67. I found ugly chicks good to hone my bed skills, because I didn’t give a fuck if they got off or not. They should be avoided though.


  68. “Don’t make a habit of banging ugly chicks” is dead on. Here’s a first hand example, my drunken encounter with a fat 4 (keep a barf bag handy):

    She was a sloppy brunette, short hair, saggy fat tits, big gut, all around nasty. No rubbers so I’m raw dogging her but keep losing my boner because even though I’m drunk, in the back of my mind I realize this bitch probably wants to get pregnant! She blows me back hard a couple times but there was no way I could finish fucking this fattie, thank God the big head overruled the little head. After a final attempt doggie and slapping that big ass HARD I gave up and went to the bathroom to wash off. She’s insulted, asking why I’m cleaning off and I’m barely hiding my disgust when I say “Just trying to keep my dick clean,” knowing it’s a total Fail (even if I didn’t cum inside and impregnate the bitch). She left pretty quick and I sat up for a couple hours, stone cold sober, with all kinds of self doubt and disgust. I wasn’t a man, I was a complete fucking stupid drunk moron who threw his dignity out the window at the first chance to fuck some wildebeest.

    Obviously I had to hit rock bottom first and if that isn’t it I’D RATHER BE FUCKING DEAD! Healthy doses of CH et. al. have me moving in the right direction. Understand that fucking fatties and uglies will make you absolutely HATE yourself. Learn from my stupidity! Better to go without.

    Definitely, “Don’t make a habit of banging ugly chicks.”


  69. on December 17, 2011 at 12:42 pm Holden Caulfield

    I think its worth bringing back up the 2/8/2 rule mentioned in the archives. That was solid advice that I think has bearing on the current argument.


  70. on December 17, 2011 at 12:48 pm AlwaysBeFucking

    If a woman passes your boner test you should fuck her.
    It’s true that some women you want to fuck once a day/week and some you want to fuck 4 times a day.
    If you are ever going to manage large group of men or going to fuck large group of women you will learn that you need them all and their value varies greatly but you need them all.


  71. on December 17, 2011 at 12:54 pm AlwaysBeFucking

    At my age, all hookers fail boner test for me.
    When I was younger they gave me boner but still less satisfaction than lowest rank women from my portfolio.


  72. I agree, with some caveats. There are extenuating circumstances. A more plain woman (say a 6) who is feminine, affectionate and amazing in bed is preferable to a cold, bitchy but attractive woman (8)

    A plain looking, but athletic & strong woman is preferable to a skinny-fat girl with a cute face. (butterface vs. butterbody)

    Finally, to flip the script on its head–a slightly older hot babe is more fun (for me) than a plain looking young chick, though that one for me is far less stable & may change with the day.


  73. Carolyn, if your sons have lots of kids(even if with many different women), they have been successful reproductively. They have succeeded in passing along their genes. And since their genes consist of about 50% of your genes, that means you have been very successful as well.

    Every grandbaby they have is going to have about 25% of your genes. You should be very thankful for every good girl they knock up. And to a lesser extent, the skanks too.


  74. on December 17, 2011 at 1:27 pm Dr Van Nostrand

    my advice to imagine those ‘degraded’ actresses talking with their pals, phoning their moms, undergoing root canal, i.e. being ordinary human beings.”
    Very good, just a question-would you have advised your daughters(if you had any) that romance novel heroes eventually have to stop being dashing,romantic,princes on a white horse/limo wooing them with flowers and chocolates and return to their day jobs where they would have to push papers and eat shit from the boss in order to provide for the her to buy groceries and school supplies, the cookie cutter house and smelly ,wailing kids?If not,why not?

    “two of my boys have been scolded for stringing along sweet girls who needed to find husbands.”
    Scoled by whom, not the girls I take it.Do you think the girls are so dense that they dont know if they are being stringing along?
    Hasnt it occured to you that it may be what those broads what- I thought you women were pro choice!


    • i’ve inoculated my daughters against such crap ‘lit’ thru ridicule, and they know as well the less than felicitous facts of life by witnessing their dad’s hard work as well as mine in supporting/servicing a large family. but your point is a good one. if the right ever succeeds in banning porn, i’d campaign that it would only be fair to ban the feminine equivalent.

      ‘rainbows and unicorns’ fantasy lit. yeah, right. not under my roof at least.

      to clarify about my sons, their girlfriends were continuing to see them hoping for marriage. when the boys told me they had no such intention, i ‘admonished’ them strongly to set them free. as everyone on this board is aware, wasted time has more serious consequences for women. letting go was the least they could do for the girls they ostensibly once loved.

      and no, i’m in no way an ‘abuser’ as somebody here claims. just someone who wishes to raise decent human beings.


      • rock on Carolyn. BTW is there anything more beta than this post? “oooh, don’t sweep with ugwy girls or you might end up feewing bad about youwself.”

        [Heartiste: You know, using the word beta as a sloppy, all-purpose smear for everything that twists your panties in a bunch is… well… beta.]


      • Wah!

        [heartiste: your first word when hubby dropped trou?]

        As for my supposedly twisted panties, you can ask my husband what shape they are in.


        He would know.

        [is this supposed to be a brag? talk about setting the bar low.]


      • “The Right” hasn’t accomplished anything in the last 40 years.


  75. All women are easy to wheel once our game is tight. We simply use different game to wheel different levels of women. We shoot ourselves in the foot, or more acurately the balls, when we build a habit of wheeling uglies. Imagine what physical traits you want in a woman, dream big! Now go out there and find those 8s and 9s. It may take 1, 10, a hundred attempts before you put together what works to hook her in. But once your skills are honed and put into habit it will be well worth it.
    Build the habit of wheeling fugly 4s and fugly 4s will be who you are.


  76. “theres only two pieces of pussy that count;

    your last and your next”– Richard Pryor


  77. I think you and Roosh are in complete agreement.

    Roosh would never advocate trying to bang a girl who doesn’t pass the boner test.

    I don’t think the question is whether you need to start with mediocre chicks, its whether you need to bang a lot of them rather than picking just one.


  78. “I think you and Roosh are in complete agreement.

    Roosh would never advocate trying to bang a girl who doesn’t pass the boner test.”

    The question isn’t whether you need to start with less attractive chicks, its whether you need to bang a lot of them.

    Of course, if you need to bang a lot of less attractive girls it is implied that you’re going to have to start out with a lot of 4s and 5s, whereas if you only need one it shouldn’t be that hard to find a 6.


  79. One more problem is the opportunity costs. You may find yourself out in public with a girl whose SMV is much lower than yours, causing you to lose your own SMV and to lose an opportunity to swoop, if one should present itself. When you refuse to date-date a girl, setting up a habit of booty-calls and midweek drinks, that’s much better. I guess the host has no problem going solo dolo anyway on the weekends.


  80. What if one is an older omega,with very little experience. he doesntw ant to get with a nice younger girl and look inept. Bad! really bad! So he considers “oracticing” on older women who boost his confidence and on whom he can “experiment.” This is not to degrade the woamn;why would ya? Sh eis told we’re just fooling around,and she gets a bunch of much-needed affection,touching,dick,pussy-lickin’ etc. She is better off and so are you. One prob might be when you are ready to stop she might not understand…


  81. Mystery’s book talks about gaming girls that you’re not attracted to just to gain experience. Turning down a fatty is going to be a hell of a lot more of a confidence booster than fucking one.


    • Very true. No man is thirsty enough to shag a girl he has to force himself into bed with, yet everyone can charm an ugly woman to hone social skills.


  82. Roosh has said that after a dry spell of two weeks or so, he falls into the “rabid wolf” mentality, where he will stop at nothing to get laid, come what may. It seems like he can handle two months before the the arid winds drive him mad.


  83. I don’t think ugly women can be a step stone for those who aim at bedding hot babes. Women may behave quite differently accordingly to their perceived SMV, therefore game you develop on a lower SMV woman won’t work or will even backfire when dealing with a higher SMV one, and vice versa. I think a better strategy is befriending hot babes and starting to game them and using them as pivots *while forgetting about bedding them*. Since you are a novice, you must be adamant about the latter point, otherwise your neediness will betray you.


  84. on December 17, 2011 at 6:39 pm Big Game Hunter

    Take this from someone who has been accurately described as “beta as fuck”:

    Jesus fuck no you do not have to bang ugly girls in order to get hotter girls later. No. Just… no.

    I don’t look special and I’m not alpha, and my game isn’t that great. Pretty much my only “advantages” are 1) I’m tall, like everyone else in Scandinavia so that’s not much to work on and 2) I’m fairly smart, so I can at least learn some and adapt better than some guys. And still, I lost my virginity with a girl I’d rate as a solid 8 if not higher. I don’t think I’ve ever had sex with anyone I’d rate below a 7, and I doubt I could. The kind of girl I’d rate a 6 is…. well, I can’t get wood with a girl like that, without using some imagination. Maybe I’ve watched too much porn or something. Honestly, scoring the prettier girls doesn’t feel so difficult compared to the uglier ones, cuz the uglier ones often still have huge egos and think they’re just god’s gift to men. Psychological defensive measure, I guess.

    I’m also thinking there may be some difference at work here in how different guys rate female hotness. I wonder how Heartiste Himself would rate the girls I rate as 8. 7? 7,5? Or even 6,5? Less? Or same as I do? To me, the weight thing is one thing that’ll sure as damn drop a girl’s rating like a stone. If a girl is overweight, she can never be more than a 6 to me, meaning unfuckable. Same thing for the skinny catwalk model body type. Sorry, but if I can see your ribs from your backside, yeah, I can’t do you. Not that you’d want me to, so it’s a win-win.

    But other than that, I try to be nice to ugly girls. I find that they’re often the most intelligent girls, too, especially the ones who understand they’re not hot at all. Maybe it’s because they don’t spend all their time thinking of how fantastic they are. They’re often pretty friendly and nice in general, too, so that’s a bonus. Their lives are probably hard enough already anyway and they’ve done nothing to me, so I don’t see why I shouldn’t be nice to ’em. The more sane among them could probably use some positive male attention so they don’t go and kill themselves. Way back in high school, an ugly girl I knew did just that.


    • You risk them becoming attached to you, much like a beta male would get attached to a kind 9.

      Be careful with the niceties.


    • demographics explains your disagreement.

      had you grown up in the u.s., chances are you would have lost your virginity to a girl who was a 5 or a 6, and you wouldn’t be so quick to say that the ugly girls tend to be smarter/friendlier/nicer.


  85. on December 17, 2011 at 7:02 pm Good Luck Chuck

    If memory serves me correctly I’ve banged a total of 2 ugly chicks.

    The first one threw herself at me at a party. I’d say she was a 4. Too many people around so I sent her on her way. Next time I bumped into her I was in need of a slumpbuster so I offered her a ride home from the bar. Went back to my place and, well….it was a slumpbuster….

    The second one was a chubby 5. Met her in a chat room of all places. She was originally from here. She got in her car, drove 800 miles and rented a nice hotel room a few miles from my place after I agreed to meet up with her on the condition that it was only for sex. Got to the hotel room and started to work my magic but she wanted to get some food first. Hand holding and footsie for an hour at Chili’s wasn’t part of the bargain, but I begrudgingly agreed.

    We got back to the hotel room and she spent the next several hours fucking and sucking me dry, but by the time midnight came around I was hit with an overwhelming feeling of shame and disgust so I put on my clothes and bolted. I kind of felt bad for her, seeing the look on her face when I told her I had to go, but I absolutely could not bring myself to spend the night with her. And she agreed that it was supposed to be JUST SEX, so, whatever.


  86. this is why the God of Biomechanics invented the Boner Test. If she doesn’t make you hard, don’t even try to bang her. If she does, everything else is just noise.


  87. girls cannot smell celibacy. what they can smell is lack of confidence, neediness and low testosterone. i became voluntary celibate due to spiritual reasons and also to test my psychological responses to certain practices. during this time i trained 2-3 hours a day in martial arts, yoga, olympic weight lifting and meditation. i masturbated very very rarely and i cut out porn totally.

    i have never had more women want to fuck me than during this period. women would open me, give me their phone numbers, at school, on the train, wherever i went women would just gravitate to me. i would talk to them like a normal human but never made advances. i made a covenant with myself and i stuck to it. that said, my self confidence went through the roof during this period. my physical and mental stamina became immense, my voice deepened, colors seemed more vivid, my gaze was more intense, and my intuition and perception of situations sharpened.

    btw i wouldnt try this unless you know someone who can guide you through such a dramatic and intense change. i have a guru who schooled me in certain ancient yogic breathing and energy techniques which made it possible. no im not some new age corny fuck, i am in med school studying neurology. i guess you could say i am also a radical empiricist who likes to undergo psychological experiments just to see what changes i can effect on my neurology.


  88. Sometimes you gotta throw a dog your bone.


  89. Heh. If women can smell the stink of celibacy, I’m screwed (30+ yo virgin). I’m not bad looking (6’4″ blonde), women approach me in bars on the rare occasion when I go out (albeit not particularly attractive ones, not dogs either). Too low confidence to hit on women I’m attracted to, too nice to bang women that I’m not. Lol. My head isn’t in a particularly good state if you can imagine.

    It sucks being decent looking, walking into a place and watching women light up and smile at you, and then after a few seconds the smiles inexplicably vanish when they see your behavior and they look at you like you are something they scraped off of their boot. At least I know why now, I guess.

    Was wanting to save it for someone I liked but I’m starting to think that may have been a mistake. Wish this site had been around 10 years ago. Believe it or not I was in much worse shape (playing WoW in the parents’ basement, 100+ lbs. heavier, smoker) before I started reading here a little over a year ago. And I am very thankful, for the large part you played in opening my eyes to the world around me, and more importantly what I was (beta, still am I suppose).

    Not giving up, but damn, it’s hard going without for this long.

    Haha. Kind of an extreme example I guess.


    • In a case like yours an escort could be in order. Not a a streetwalker but a more expensive one with decent manners who won’t be rude. I think there are websites where you can read ” reviews”. I’m serious. It sounds like being a virgin is holding you back from interacting with women in a positive way. Time to get it taken care of.


  90. When learning Pickup, guys should try new things on women they aren’t really interested in. Not necessarily ugly, but just not the kind of girl they want.

    That eliminates the self-conscious factor. By removing any desire to succeed, a guy can focus on learning the skills he needs to develop. That way, if he fails, it doesn’t kill his soul because he really had nothing to lose.

    Liken it to learning CPR on a dummy. Do it wrong and you just need to do it again. Do it right, and when you really need to do it, you save a life.


  91. how pathetic must your friend be to mistake a 4 for an 8? its one thing to be off by .5-1.5 when you factor in personal tastes, but a full 4 points? not to mention that he even admitted that he failed to close on her. and i have to ask, how good looking was the girl that he came out with when he introduced the blonde?


  92. I’ve never failed to get an erection. Well, not exactly. I did once- when I was breaking up with a LTR. I was completely disgusted with her and beta to the point I didn’t want her but didn’t want to be the one to end it.

    Besides that, I haven’t felt like my boner quality had anything to do with the attractiveness of the chick. Maybe I’ve just always managed to land close to my equal or perhaps I’m a narcissist and I give myself an erection.

    I’ve definitely turned down a lot, though- including some 7s and 8s, but that’s a long story.


  93. Of course taking a 5 is alright. It’s subsistence hunting. A man’s gotta eat while he looks for a trophy rack. God bless the subsistence prey too. They keep a man’s strength and nutrition up.


  94. There is no way that I will even work anyone who is below a 7. I did my time with the fugs and won’t do anymore. I’d rather go through months of nothing than deal with nasty chicks.

    I’ve found it relatively easy to pick up strippers so I hit the nudie bar during dry periods. They are f-ing crazy as hell but hot and I would rather live with that for a few days or weeks instead of dealing with the drama of a nasty bitch.


  95. i find it hard to imagine a 5 with a nice body unless she is old, missing a tooth or something.


  96. just found this site, great stuff. its been awhile, severe dry spell since my ex left town. reading this got me thinking i should put the moves on a chick i been friends with for a while even though shes average looking. my ex was pretty hot so i know i can do better but there’s no hot chick knocking down my door and i’m not into hookers, so the 5ish friend is on the radar now. any advice on the fastest way to turn friend into a regular uncomplicated lay. or is this a total no no?


  97. “these ‘uglies’ are human beings who as such deserve a modicum of respect. how would you feel if you were treated as shabbily”

    Wimpy men *are* treated as shabbily by women.

    [Heartiste: It’s shabbiness all the way down.]


  98. on December 18, 2011 at 1:20 pm Just another asshole responding

    Roosh is a pathetic sex addict who will fuck anything. He never posts pictures of what he’s pulling because I strongly suspect he’s getting Ugs.


  99. “Avoiding the “stink of celibacy” by lowering standards sounds like sexual Keynesianism.” Haha, I like it. Also, screwing fat and ugly chicks puts one more at risk for STDs, and makes hot chicks look askance at you. Remember the handsome dude with the pigwoman you mentioned a few days ago on this blog? Um, yeah.


  100. Unlike the social milieu doesn’t change, you’re not gonna have much of a say in how immoral your sons end up. Once they figure out there’s no use in trying to treat women decently, once they figure out game works and not “using” a woman doesn’t, what you have or haven’t taught them won’t mean jack.


  101. Maybe I don’t understand the rating scale here, but isn’t a 5 average? The vast majority of women are average or worse. ( as are most men.) I see plenty of average looking women walking around with BFs and husbands. And plenty of average women with children, which is proof that someone found them attractive enough to have sex with.


    • Or that someone didn’t have better options. Most people don’t have said options, so they settle for whatever they can get. And if I remember correctly, a 5 is not a passing grade, a 6 is the bare minimum to pass a course.


  102. The Chateau got wrote up in “Good Men Project.” Apparently Heartiste is the “Darth Vader” of the seduction world.

    That said, she isn’t totally hard on the host here, in fact I think she has a little crush. She lets him off the hook for a couple things. Most tellingly, she actually has a reasonably solid understanding of the neg, after clearly adopting the Chateau definitions.

    Her harshest criticism is reserved for the commenters here. Not a bad article overall, considering the source.


    • That slut has a nice little mouth to suck on a fat dick, but her forehead is showing the creases that time so cruelly cuts into the faces of aging tarts.

      Females like this like to prattle about supposed women-haters and then spread their cheeks for the cocks of same.

      This minx is jonesing for “dominant” dick and that’s about it; she knows there’s not much of it in her world of lefty manginas.–


    • Haha, rickb223 made such an impression on that “sex positive *cough slut* feminist”. His comment about vapid airheads was deemed to be the most offensive.

      I would personally take that as a compliment.

      Good job, rick.


  103. This post is really about knowing yourself, and being honest with yourself about what quality of women and at what frequency of ball draining you need to be at to sustain optimum happiness.

    Like anything, if you work hard to improve your game and meet objectives you will then create new ones more challenging.

    1) banging women you are not attracted to is horrible for your confidence and your overall game progress. I’ve been in the limp dick scenario and it’s not fun,she’s so ugly you just can’t get into it, and you feel like shit. I’d rather rub one out to porn, 100%.

    2) dryspells can be managed.
    Actually it’s an opportunity to make positive changes: excersise more, change diet, limit or obstain alcohol/drugs, study new game concepts, goto new venues you have never been, work on cold approaching. Seriosuly. You want to take your mind off of getting laid? Go to a public place and cold approach attractive women- if you’re new to it, the approach anxiety will jolt your system. Gotta start somewhere. More you do it, easier it becomes.

    3) get into an LTR with an avg women you are attracted to that is possible for you AND continue working on game. “But that’s unethical”. Nope. You can get laid regularly with LTR, AND, work on cold approaching, #closing, txt game, dates, attraction and comfort routines, etc etc etc. As long as you don’t do anything physical, you haven’t “cheated”. They are just “friends”.

    Actually, by consistently gaming other women while in an LTR, your LTR will be more attracted to you, as you’ll be less needy, all the while building a rotation of hot opps, with hotter women. You’re in control. Alpha.

    “But that’s not right, I’m using her”. See #2. Then See #1. Your choice.



  104. on December 19, 2011 at 7:35 am Professor Mentu

    I agree with Heartiste on this one. I have a friend from work who is maybe a 4, and she invited me to a concert with her friends because she had an extra ticket. Thinking I would show up and hit on one of her hotter friends (none of whom I had ever met), I accepted. Later that night I found myself at one of the most popular venues in Austin with four of the ugliest damn women south of Oklahoma, and they were all dancing and hanging on my arm.

    I broke out of the group and attempted to hit on two 7s and an 8. They shot me down like I was a leper. I lowered my standards and went for a 6. Still, no play. The 6 wouldn’t even tell me her name.

    Not only is banging an ug a bad idea, but apparently just knowing one is too.

    Never again.


  105. I wouldn’t say that “ugly women are necessary” to perfecting your Game, but you must be confident in your outcome. And also know how to demonstrate value to an 8 or 10, so if you practice on a 5 or 6 all you know how to do is demonstrate value to a 5 or 6 if you aspire to bedding 10’s you have to study your target since a 10 is another creature entirely, and you have to know your prey.

    So just like hunting rabbits does not prepare you for hunting bear, so bedding a 5 doesn’t prepare you for bedding a 9. It really is that simple. But having said that, if you have never picked up a gun or hunted in your life, you need to start with the small stuff before you are ready to tackle anything major.

    Just my view point…


  106. on December 20, 2011 at 6:53 am EvilutionaryBioShock

    I have a roster of three women who are my regular lays. One is a 7 (fucking animal in bed, lets me do nasty shit to her) and the other two are solid 8s. I would never fuck under a 6 although the slut I was fucking a couple months ago was a 6, insanely hot body (huge tits, nice stomach, round perky ass) and dtf whenever, loved sucking my dick, doggy style and reverse cowgirl. Fucking an average chick just isn’t worth it.


  107. @thisarticle –


    Fucking El-oh-el.

    Ty for this article. I’m totally saving this for future reference.

    Also to carolyn vs commentors – Whaaa?


  108. Dear Roosh,

    When the gods seek to destroy us most completely, they give us what we want.

    Yours sincerely,


  109. this blog is full of disgusting assholes. Wow. Way to ruin my perception of humanity, stinkin’ douche bags.


  110. even flirting with an ugly is an ordeal. Try it and see


  111. You know what?This actually makes sense.You can’t expect (as a newbie)to be banging 8-10’s when you have no experience with 5’s and 6’s.


  112. […] women to stop coming onto you, what to do if your girlfriend is only gorgeous on the inside, how to use ugly women for casual sex, whether doing so brings on depression, and, well, just offering pictures of various […]


  113. This is all kind of interesting reading, if you’re a woman. I’ve faced the same issues, ie I’ve pulled unappealing men because they were the only ones on offer at the time, then felt a bit ewww. Now I don’t do that cause ‘ugly’ men have feelings too and I believe in karma. Still, we women don’t have this ravening dick thing leading us around..