A Test Of Your Game: The Judging

In yesterday’s post, I challenged you to describe how you’d go about meeting Coffeehouse Girl. The challenge brought out the creative side in many commenters. There were a lot of suggestions to neg her for using a Mac, which runs the risk of pegging you as a PC nerd if you show any amount of hostility to her choice of computer. Plus, it’s weak sauce. Commenter “Hardcore” suggested the sketch routine, which will work especially well in a relaxed lounge environment. Another commenter would tell the girl to “watch his stuff for a second” while he flirted with the barista on the way to the bathroom. This is known as compliance, and is a common tactic of PUAs *after* they have built attraction. It would not work as an opener. Others noted that if you crashed and burned you would be stuck there sitting in a sofa across from her, creating an uncomfortable vibe. To this I say, are you a man or a David Alexander? Who cares if she’s uncomfortable? If you flame out, just go back to your couch and laptop as if nothing was wrong. Her discomfort is not your moral crisis. She might even like you more for it, and re-open you later.

I’ve picked out a sampling of answers that illustrate the main schools of thought and strategies in dealing with the scenario I laid out.

Pope Goaz D’Weezil wrote:

I put on my robe and wizard hat.

Yes, peacocking will work to grab attention and build intrigue. But where do you go from there?
Grade: Fail, with flair.

Mu’Min wrote:

What would I do? Simply get up, put my Thinkpad down, walk straight over to her, introduce myself and invite her to join me.

I like the boldness. Direct game has its uses. But this approach relies too much on your looks and the six feet of space you have between you and her to demonstrate your alpha body language.
Grade: Gentleman’s C

Hope wrote:

With laptops at the ready, just use music sharing as a pretext. Say you are excited about this piece of music you just discovered, and since she has a laptop, too, you wanted to invite her to listen.

This is great for the rapport building stage of attraction, but useless as an opener. Why would she care about some random guy’s taste in music? She will feel like he is forcing a connection before she has had a chance to evaluate his value as a potential mate.
Grade: D, on a girl curve.

giesen wrote:

That’s the old school way of thinking: hoping to strike up a connection by blindly approaching a hot stranger that you have no other reason to talk to.

If you want to strike up a new romance, be more social and outgoing in your day to day life, or change your routine so that you are around more people.

I’ve chosen some of these comments because I want the men here to witness firsthand how utterly self-deluded women are about game, pickup, and their own sexual desire. Because outside of business settings, men DON’T have a reason to cold approach and talk to women unless it is to get in her pants, or pawn her off to get in the pants of one of her hot friends.

So giesen instead recommends retrofitting your entire life trajectory to become more “social and outgoing”. Yes, screw game. It’s better to busily scramble after a nebulous concept. I think girls spew these kinds of useless empty platitudes because deep down they understand it will keep the betas running endlessly on their hamster wheels, thus ensuring the dating pool of “genuine” alphas stays uncorrupted.
Grade: Epic fail.

Brandy wrote:

For the average guy I would recommend letting 5-10 minutes pass without acknowledging her. This will keep you from being perceived as being too eager and aggressive and also allow her a moment to relax and let her guard down.

Then after the 5-10 minute cooling off period has passed, look for a natural opportunity to say something clever without being offensive. Smile and make eye contact. If she reciprocates and doesn’t get up and walk away – put your laptop aside, sit up, maintain eye contact and a smile and make conversation. If she reciprocates again – slowly and delicately introduce an appropriate level of game, but don’t completely turn into something you’re not – and don’t get so wrapped up in your own performance that you lose sight of how YOU feel about her as you get to know more about her.

The problem with waiting for her to “settle in” is that you risk get pegged as a cowardly beta ogler. Better to not wait long enough than to wait too long. The rest of what Brandy wrote is fine as far as traditional, passive game is concerned — make eye contact, wait for reciprocation, smile, wait for reciprocation, strike up a conversation, wait for reciprocation. It’s the game of second-place finishers who don’t want to stick their necks out and reach for the brass ring. I can tell you that if you play the game by these “girl rules” you’ll wind up banging the easy marks — the girls who like you, rather than the girls you like. You’ve gotta risk rejection to get what you really desire.
Grade: Passing, barely.

Chris wrote:

My favorite thing to get a girl interested after an introduction though is asking her a question – something innocuous like what she’s working on or what she’s drinking, and then generally regardless of her answer saying something like “Oh, so you’re one of THOSE people.”

Don’t ask innocuous questions as an opener. Again, this falls under forced rapport, and will aggravate her. Johnnyfive suggests in the comments that you *begin* with “OH, so you’re one of THOSE people.” I agree.
Grade: Mincing little fail.

Sebastian Flyte wrote:

Pretend you just got an email a second ago then use a conventional opener off of it. Laugh a little, as if you’re just reading it, then spontaneously look up and say ‘Hey, my friend was really drunk the other night and texted an ex saying he loved her, he just emailed/aimed (aim-ed might be more realistic) saying that he told her it was just the alcohol talking… I’m not sure though, do you think drunk I love you’s count?”

This is a good opener, but remember that she is sitting six feet from you in a large, acoustically-unfavorable room. You’ll still have to get her attention somehow and then talk loudly across the coffee table. If she leans forward to listen, you’ve gotten an indicator of interest, but what if she remains slouched in her sofa, straining to hear you?
Grade: B

Animus wrote:

“Don’t you find it difficult?”, “Uh, find what difficult?”, “Getting anything done in this place. I saw you poring over your laptop trying sooo hard to shut it all out. *impersonates via exaggerated brow furrowing* Like that girl in 8th grade who’s trying to take notes on the goofy cartoon movie dubbed in French, but can’t because Donald Duck sounds even more psychotic in Francais.” Smirk.

The problem with the clever opener is the risk of being perceived as trying too hard. This is particularly the case if your clever line requires a teleprompter and ten minutes to spit out. Sure, she’ll admire your impressive intellect, but that doesn’t always translate into wet pussy. Stick to cocky, short and sweet.
An improvement on this opener:
“Don’t you find it difficult?”
“Uh, find what difficult?”
“Writing the next great American novel while trying to catch guys flirting with you.”
Grade: C for the exaggerated cleverness.
Grade: A for the smirk.

T. wrote:

I’d walk over and say “Yo, gimme your email so I can walk back to my seat and spam the SHIT outta you.” with a dead serious expression.

T for the win.
Grade: A

Jesus Lizard wrote:

I would very surreptitiously take a peek up her skirt and get a panties shot – this is very important. (C’mon, this is a hypothetical and in my world its a girl in a very short skirt and her Macbook is providing me excellent shield). If I like what I see, then I take it to step two of my two step process, which is, look over at her, get her attention, maintain eye-contact for 1, maybe 10 seconds longer than that which is comfortable for her (again, in my hypo I can mesmerize women), then ever so slowly raise my right hand in the formation of a faux-claw pointed in her direction, and in precise unison, do a cat-like swipe, purr-hiss combination right at her. Let me just say this.. it works.

You should always screen a girl by peeking up her skirt.
Grade: F, but I laughed.

Affe wrote:

Leer, then query “Am I the only one with a itchy poop-chute in this joint ?” in a knowing fashion, while attempting a wink that winds up looking like an uncontrollable facial tic.

The spastic wink where both eyes close is especially effective.
Grade: A, if she’s an anal-obsessed freak. Otherwise, F-.

Racer X wrote:

The best game is this: ignore and conquer. Being the one guy in the room who shows no interest in her will make her think about you all the more.

Feigning indifference won’t work on indifferent girls.
Grade: A, if this was meant to be sarcastic. Otherwise, D- for relying on your looks.

Kick a Bitch wrote:

I’d shit my pants and throw feces at her.

If you play the Law of Large Numbers game, then there’s gotta be a 1 in a billion girl who would fall for this.
Grade: E for effort.

Anonymous threatened female posing as a guy wrote:

Personally I see you “alpha/game males” as huge fucking losers. Especially the ones “learning the game” and spouting off your little quotes and theory. You always seem to be adopting different personalities. I’ve always believed if you have to change who you are to get the attention of a woman, you lose. Plain and simple.

One thing I’ve noticed from reading this webpage (and the comments especially) is it seems to me that many “students of the game” are hyper-overanalyzers (yes, that is redudant, but you guys overanalyze SO much) and seem to think/feel/need extraordinary structure in terms of “what to do” in order to be able to function.

What if who you are is the cause of your celibacy? Then change is warranted, no? Should Charles Manson have stayed “who he was” because by doing so he would have adhered to your righteously moralistic worldview? Or should he have tried to be a better, non-murderous person? It’s easy to preach from the dichotomous pulpit you’re glued to — you’re either a natural comfortable in his own skin, or a loser learning game and being someone he’s not. But that is a false premise. Learning game is like learning a foreign language. You don’t become a different person just because you taught yourself German. Dummkopf!

This pseudo-argument you’re presenting has been knocking around in the heads of the sneering disbelievers for a long time, so I don’t expect you to see the light. But I do want to make an example of you so betas who might fall for your inane bromides aren’t sucked into believing their fates are hopeless.

Let’s be clear. The only difference between a natural alpha and a “student of the game” is level of self-awareness. Some guys do allow their systematizing nerdiness to carry them off into overanalyzing creepland, but that is not evidence that game doesn’t work. There is a learning curve, and after enough practice the skills become so second-nature that you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between a natural and a guy who made a conscious, deliberate effort to learn how to pick up women.

and he also showed me this cube game about 2 years ago, and it was ridiculously stupid.

That “ridiculously stupid” cube game is chick crack. But you’d know this if you weren’t an ugly girl posing as a guy who felt threatened by guys learning game and exercising the choice of ignoring you in favor of higher quality girls.


What I did:

Me: [Getting up and walking over to her side of the coffee table] I noticed you’ve been hoarding the sugar packs over here. [Grabbing one] If you wanted an excuse to talk to me, you could have just said Hi.
Her: [smiling] I’m pretty sure those were here when I got here.
Me: Likely story. I’m gonna go sit back down and answer some important emails from people seeking dating advice. I may ask for your opinion later. Sometimes a girl’s perspective helps. [Walk back]
Her: [10 minutes later] You still gonna ask me about your emails?
Me: Hmm? Oh, yeah… you won’t believe this one. Come here, check this out.

You’ll have to amuse yourselves with what happened next.


  1. The best part of that is the walk-away. She was probably so mentally prepared for you to overstay your welcome, and to walk away like that so casually probably made her instantly moist. Being willing to walk away on your own terms at any point in an interaction and having faith it will still work out later is something so many guys never, ever grasp.


  2. It’s not just that it will work out later, it’s that it doesn’t truly matter. If she comes, it’s gravy. If she doesn’t, that’s fine too. The city is SWIMMING in women.


  3. That’s killer. Would you have done anything remotely similar before learning Game, ie. naturally?


  4. on September 26, 2008 at 7:25 pm Large Hadron Collider

    Since I am near the temperature of liquid helium – the cold shoulder has no effect on me – quite the opposite in fact


  5. Don’t you love it when it goes that perfectly. Sweet.


  6. Why do I get the feeling ‘Large Hadron Collider’ is actually ‘SeaFighter HSV’…..part 2.


  7. It’s not just that it will work out later, it’s that it doesn’t truly matter.

    You’re right, I stand corrected.


  8. “Why do I get the feeling ‘Large Hadron Collider’ is actually ‘SeaFighter HSV’…..part 2.”

    He’s not, but I do like the guy’s style.


  9. I hate to admit it, but that’s pretty fucking good.


  10. The problem with “Game” to me is that it doesnt allow for the varied sensibilities of women and/or assumes that pretense or some sort of dramatization is going to be appealing to her or that she wont see past it. Any woman worth dealing with definitely will.

    For the most part, women are either attracted to a guy or they arent and it’s difficult to find out what approach to use without knowing anything about the women, what she likes etc. Its better to toss aside the game, be yourself and if your lucky, she will find you appealing without any of the manipulative B.S.


  11. “it doesnt allow for the varied sensibilities of women”

    It’s all pink on the inside, chief.


  12. Good stuff, bait hook reel release. “in my pre-game days i probably wouldn’t have been as cocky.” In your pre-game days you probably weren’t getting emails from guys for dating advice either. And you were actually responding to emails or no?

    B for me… story of my life 😦


  13. Well, Im an African American, who has dated my share of women, more than probably all of my male friends (none of whom do too bad) and certainly more than the average guy I would say…and thus far, I havent had to employ any of these game tactics. In fact, I have found that when I attempted to be anything BUT myself, I honestly didnt get anywhere. I have known and been with some very attractive women and have conversed on these matters with possibly thousands of women and every womens interest in a guy (initially or down the line) isnt sexually derived etc. Some are turned on by character qualities they assume the person has, some by sense of humor, kindness, assertiveness etc. etc. I think the cookie cutter ideas about women and what appeals to them is alot more complex than what it being put forth.

    What I have found that most of the women responded to in terms of sexuality was the “downplaying of sex” to an extent that I noticed a lack of emphasizing the fact that you want to sleep with them often removes their caution button etc. but thats not a manipulation because my interest in women isnt soley a sexual one (which seems to be the main focus here) and therefore they appreciate the overall interest and interaction etc.

    The problem I see is that alot of men dont know how to relate to women as PEOPLE at all and only see a pussy with legs and cannot engender interest without manipulation of some sort for lack of ability in relating to them in general.


  14. The problem I see is that alot of men dont know how to relate to women as PEOPLE at all and only see a pussy with legs and cannot engender interest without manipulation of some sort for lack of ability in relating to them in general.

    Everybody manipulates. Don’t fool yourself into thinking you don’t. Do you write a resume and format it in the best possible way and choose the words that put you in the most flattering light and downplay your weaknesses? Well you manipulate? Do you practice your job interview skills? Then you manipulate. Do you just engage in verbal vomit in a conversation and say everything that comes to mind with no use of your internal editor or do you work to say the right thing at the right time to make the optimal impression socially? Congratulations, you manipulate. Ever told a joke to make someone laugh? That’s a manipulation of that person’s emotional state. Social life is nothing but nonstop numerous little manipulations played on a conscious and subconscious level all day long. Some people had the right ways to manipulate ingrained in them from youth and can do it unconsciously. Others had to learn it intellectually later in life. But everyone manipulates, including you every time you think about what you are going to say before you say it.

    And this thing about treating women like people and not objects? Do you think women aren’t manipulating you the whole time? Are her cheeks naturally that rosy? Are her lips naturally that red? Is that her true scent? Are her calves really that shape or are the high heels designed to enhance them? Are her breasts really that perky or is that the underwire of her bra? How about little rules she has like don’t sleep with a guy that’s a keeper on the first few dates no matter how badly you want to so that he doesn’t think you are a slut and wants you for a long term relationship? Is that being herself or is that a manipulation. Every single one of these things is a social manipulation designed to hit on men’s biological and psychological triggers. What game does for men is teach men how to do the same thing: the proper social manipulations to hit on women’s biological and psychological triggers too. The reason it stands out so much when men learn it as opposed to when women learn it is that women everywhere are taught these manipulation techniques so thoroughly from so young an age by their mothers and their peer groups that they become social white noise, we don’t even notice it because it’s as ubiquitous as air.

    Why do you think women hate the idea of game so much? Because they want to be the only side with the weapons. And they’ve convinced guys like you that it’s honorable to show up to a gunfight emptyhanded. And my challenge to women who tell men to just “be themselves” and don’t manipulate? “Be yourself” too and stop wearing makeup, figure enhancing bras, slimming underwear, high heels, perfume, and sleep with new guys whenever you honestly feel horny, not when you feel the timing is best for making a good virtuous impression.


  15. this is what i would expect a man who gauges his self-worth by what women think of him to say.

    That’s if one believes in self-worth. In contrast, I believe that self-worth is bunk, and that one’s worth is dictated by society. All the high feelings of self-worth are nothing if people think you’re a piece of shit.


  16. Just for clarification.

    I have no problems with ideas that are designed to helping people make themselves more attractive to the opposite sex at all.

    I differentiate that a great deal from game though.

    Also, if were speaking in biological terms, most peoples motivation towards the opposite sex is based on chemistry to a large extent, which isnt always sexual but cannot be developed or created through a simple approach, line, or manner of addressing another person.

    My belief has always been in the law of attractions in that most people arent going to have the type of chemical connection with someone of the opposite sex and people generally tend to attract other people who are a conscious or unconscious reflection of some part of them.


  17. I have no problems with ideas that are designed to helping people make themselves more attractive to the opposite sex at all.

    I differentiate that a great deal from game though.

    Why? Just “because?” Support your case, why the differentiation?


  18. TO Ricky Raw:

    Attempts at making oneself appealing to another and PRETENSE or dishonesty are two different things. Accentuation of ones gifts and attempting to convince someone that you are someone you are not in order to USE them for something they have are quite different.


  19. David Alexander 29 —

    What i’m curious about in your case DA is what’s the story with you and Wellseley Woman now. I understand that she’s come to a fixed view that you’re a beta and she’s hot for chasing alphas or kinda alphas. But do you still talk to each other and share stories from her life?


  20. You could always do the “is it ok if I sketch you?” thing and then search the internet for a sketch of a beautiful woman who looks close – then cut n paste a Starbucks into her hand.

    Look up at her some and make eye contact while exagergating your efforts – play the “artist drawing her model” role for a while –

    When she asks how its going after a few minutes – ask her for her email – add some cute kittens to it – and maybe a dolphin – and send away.

    If she laughs – you’ve pretty much got her. Go to it.

    If not – you may have failed but you have a story to tell later on this blog – In the scheme of things who cares what a stranger thinks 20 minutes later? You get internal “points” for doing something no matter what


  21. What i’m curious about in your case DA is what’s the story with you and Wellseley Woman now.

    We are no longer in contact with each other, and for all intents and purposes, while it hurt in the short-term, in the long-term, it was much better to move away from such a harmful relationship. I maybe lonely now, but it was probably better to end my sycophantic tendencies towards her. Despite this, sadly, I’ll probably end up comparing other women to her for the next twenty years…


  22. BTW, I’ll add that Wellesley Queen abandoned our friendship when she decided that she grew tired of hanging out with an omega male with no potential for greatness. She was particularly upset that I had lied about going to a “real” college and the fake internship with a local transit agency. She said that she could no longer “trust” me, but I suspect that she grew tired of dealing with me, and that her Wellesley degree entitled her to associate with better (and possibly whiter) friends. I left the friendship depressed with low self-esteem reinforcing my lowly status…

    She ended up working for the Hillary Clinton campaign in Iowa, and I was overjoyed to see that her candidate got beat by the foreign negro with a funny last name. “Smite the Bitch” was my chant…


  23. The problem I see is that alot of men dont know how to relate to women as PEOPLE at all and only see a pussy with legs and cannot engender interest without manipulation of some sort for lack of ability in relating to them in general.

    Very true^^ and it’s why women are mean just for the hell of it at times.


  24. Mu, I’m curious, are you Nigerian? your diction suggests to me you might be.


  25. PA,
    As far as I know, I have no Nigerian ancestry, though I am certain that it is West African, as is the case w/the vast majority of African Americans (BTW, my buddy Zam used to live in Uganda), so its certainly possible. Most historians and the like speculate that African Americans come from the section surrounding present day Nigeria if I’m not mistaken, so again, its possible.

    What makes you ask? What’s a Nigerian’s diction sound/read like? And, I understand that you’re originally from Eastern Europe, yes? If so, what part? Just curious.



  26. So, if I didn’t talk to her, would shooting a knowing look and a smile have the same effect?


  27. Also, I think appearances matter a great deal. I’ve run a good bit of “game” on some different girls, including some retroactively, but while it translates into more flirtiness, it almost never translates into more results.


  28. Yes, peacocking will work to grab attention and build intrigue. But where do you go from there?
    Grade: Fail, with flair.

    No, that’s grade A vintage internet humour.

    Bloodninja had some killer lines


  29. Mu, thanks. For some reason I thought you were originally from another country. I knew two guys from Nigeria, one Muslim and one a Christian, and both had a relaxed but formal-sounding way of talking similar to your writing, which is what I meant by diction. Originally I’m from Poland.


  30. PA,
    Ah, so you’re from the land that gave us Pope John Paul The Great! And thanks for the kudos.



  31. on September 27, 2008 at 6:00 pm yourfavoritewritersfavoritewriter

    Good Analysis, but i believe whether farce or not, MPM said dump a bunch of blow out on the table or offer an E Tab, the right kind of whore ur trying to meet will react to this, her large Christian Dior sunglasses lifting up, revealing a nostril that has seen many a shot up, her Yves St L sundress will be off in no time…


  32. Wow, Kick, have you read about the JetMan Rossy? With your personal gas turbine, you could beat his new record with a fragrant transatlantic trip! Go, Kick, go!


  33. lizard king,

    shouldnt start off making demands

    but i would like an answer to that question

    you are wise,


  34. Props to Zamani for highlighting what game is really about.
    “game isn’t a simple line or approach (although it is a manner of comporting yourself). it’s a constellation of lines, conversation, body language, dress, voice, strategy, tactics, and attitude that work together to complete the effect.”

    This is true. Although, when you say “tactics” I hope it’s all natural. You shouldn’t rely on gimmicks. They require to much mental work to keep up and women will either consciously or unconsciously pick up on them, and you will fail. Guys with no game should just focus on building natural game. embrace your testosterone, embrace your sexuality and then ‘game’ will flow from there all the time, without any effort.


  35. 51 Justin

    Read a good bit of it.

    I want 20 minutes of my life back. 😡


  36. Heres another example.

    I met a young lady online back in 2005 who was a vice principal of a high school here in Philadelphia. She was lightcomplected, very fit build with huge breast and an overall banging body with a pretty face to match.

    She was an extremely cautios person, so much so that she would only converse with me by email for almost a month before she would agree to talk to me by telephone and then she would only take my number and call me from a private restricted line. We talked for almost 2 more weeks by telephone before she agreed to meet me in person.

    She also would only meet me in person at a public place during the day and she made certain to park several blocks away so that I wouldnt be able to identify her car etc. She also noted that it might be “Months” (if at all) before she ever allowed me to come to her place and/or see where she lives etc.

    We met up at like 4pm, chilled at Borders for about a half hour, went to grab a bite to eat for dinner and guess what??? I was back at her place and in her bed before sundown.

    When I asked her what allowed her to let her guard down to easily she noted that I made her “comfortable”, treated her like a “person” and not a “piece of meat’ and that she felt like she could open up to me, talk to me and share anything with me and that this comfort level overwhelmed her normal inhibitions about guys and especially someone she met over the internet.

    Heres another thing.

    I have been with a host of women who have been very open about me not being their “type” physically or just not being the type of guy that they would date, much less sleep with based on their normal physical preferences. The kicker for all of them was that I seemed like a good hearted person, I wasnt all about imposing myself on them sexually and that I seemed intelligent and that I genuinelly appeared to care about them as a “person” and they realized that this wasnt an ACT!!!..And they were right.

    At any given time if I was ina crunch, I have a host of women who would and have offered to help me financially or otherwise and these are women who I havent even slept with in years but who I could if I so desired.

    I do realize that every woman isnt going to appreciate me, and in many instances the types of women who DONT appreciate a guy like me arent very interesting to me anyway and often fall into the category of I mentioned in my previous post. Airheads, chickenheads etc.

    Every women who is attractive isnt interested in an Alpha Type !!!

    I also found REPEATEDLY that DE-EMPHASIZING sex has always led to women being MORE interested and more comfortable being physical with me. This isnt some tactic that I employed either, its just natural.

    A great deal of the women I ended up having sex with on the first date I actually NEVER planned on sleeping with and on many occasions I was SUPRISED that it went down.

    So the bottom line for me has always been to simply be myself in which there is little pretense but I also have the benefit of appreciating women as people with minds, opinions, emotional needs and flaws etc. which is why I might be out of the loop in the forum with respect to my appraoch and perceptions of women, but I would like to think I am wrong…LOL. As corny and as cliche as it might sound, these women are somebodys sisters, or mother etc.

    So yes, PRETENDING to be a nice guy probably WONT get you anywhere in the long run, being a genuine person with flaws (in my experiences) and relating to a women in all aspects will get you over with some women. It hasnt hurt my numbers at all.


  37. Hey Ricky,

    Ok, I understand where your coming from.

    In my actual case, I am much closer to the archetype of that nerd you described than I am to a socialite or a player etc. I’m a computer nerd, a free lance writer, a trumpet player and an Astrologer as well as an electronic nut. I have also experienced social awkwardness at times and depending on when you meet me, I might appear as a complete introvert or as a somewhat friendly but mild-mannered extrovert. I’m not an aggressive person by nature; I suppose I was blessed with a dry sense of humor and wit as well as an ability to empathize and understand people and to tap into what motivates them etc.

    Despite that I realize that every women isn’t and shouldn’t find me appealing. I have a friend and coworker who is the complete opposite of me. Hes a alpha type and he attracts many women as well, but the attractive women who respond to me are and would be turned off by him and the ones that like him would find me to be unappealing, so I think that were not giving enough space for human variance here and its spiraling down into stereotyping at times.

    I can see how someone without any social skills or qualities would find it difficult to meet women and I can relate to how that might make him feel that he needs to develop some approach to compensate for that. In that case however, I think the individual would need to work on his personal sense of self esteem and self confidence and to develop basic social skills, or bring out some of his own innate attractive qualities…since eventually , most women would see beyond the mask of game and realize that this person is insecure if he tried to “fake the funk”.

    Plus I have met DOZENS of attractive women who are COMPLETE NERDS and who actually would appreciate another guy who shares their own social awkwardness. I know of one now who is a model but is shy as a mouse and HATES aggressive men.

    So I am not opposed to an individual learning social skills or even how to make himself more attractive to the opposite sex, my problem was with the idea of pretense and manipulation simply to try to get a women into bed which I honestly don’t feel would have as high of a success rate as its being spoken of.

    Plus, most initial attractions are based on how closely one fits into another individuals perception of what is physically attractive although occasionally some aspect of that persons makeup (personality, attitude) may draw a person in, but it has to be something that is genuinely them and not a pretense because the attraction will be lost once the individual realizes it wasn’t authentic.

    Unless this is just about getting a chance to stick your dick in a girl, eventually women are going to have to appreciate some things about your core of being.


  38. Also most of the women that I have talked to say that they prefer a simple approach from a male who is a stranger and interested in getting to know them.

    Most just want a respectful introduction from someone who seems self assured by not cocky.

    Many of them said they prefer a simple “Hello, how are you, I think your an attractive lady and I would like to get to know you”.


  39. The law of large numbers is a theorem in probability that describes the long-term stability of the mean of a random variable. Given a random variable with a finite expected value, if its values are repeatedly sampled, as the number of these observations increases, their mean will tend to approach and stay close to the expected value.


  40. Uh, L…

    Translation, please? This time, in plain English? Thanks.



  41. Ok, now the coffee shop thing I dont have a problem with.

    If game is being defined as how to go about approaching a women who is a complete stranger and not “blow it” then I can see guys hashing out different approaches cus what works with one women certainly wont work with another.


  42. Mu’min 62 —

    I’ll translate what L said. In doing so I’ll be showing you how utterly trivial what he said was in this context.

    Let’s think of the law of large numbers by first thinking about it’s opposite, really small numbers. This is all about basic statistical ideas. So take a jar of 1000 jelly beans, half white and half black.

    If you pick out only 10, 8 of them might be black. That’s not a remote possibility at all.

    If you pick out 500, it’s extremely likely that you’ll get 250 black and 250 white ones, plus or minus say 20 black ones.

    That’s a central illustration of the law of large numbers as L is using it. With a large sample size the expected and the actual results will converge (if that is your theory on expected is correct and the only issue is statistical randomness).

    As people in the PUA community use it, they mean that even if your game is only good on 1 in 30 hottish women, if you play it on 100, you’re gonna go home with a hottie eventually – in fact as you play it on more than 15 your odds start looking sweet.

    Of course there was that “failing all else”. It’s a lot better to not fail all else.


  43. Zam,

    I think part of the disagreement may come from your perception of what Game is. To me, Game is any tip or recommendations that help you with the opposite sex. Like, the pickup artist stuff is one type of Game, but so is an old school black dude at a poker game dropping knowledge on you or your dad giving you great tips or Iceberg Slim or . Sadly, male role models suck nowadays ever since feminism has confused gender roles. People’s dads grew up in a feminist ideology and are training their sons to be doormats, or people don’t have male role models period.

    There is a specific group of people who are into a type of Game that encourages dishonesty, like Mystery and those guys who teach routines, prefabricated stories that never happened to you, opinion openers about things you don’t care about…that stuff I have don’t agree with. Everyone has true stories in their lives they can use to build rapport with people, and if they don’t their first priority should be to get an interesting life before meeting people. But to me that style doesn’t represent all types of Game out there.


  44. T 57 –

    thanks. grade A style.

    in general, do these PUAs teach guys how to transition from opener into normal conversation? i think that’s the critical point of game. even more important than the opener.

    it gets so awkward when someone doesn’t know what to say after ‘hey. can i ask you a question? who is taller, me or my friend joe?’


  45. Zamani:

    my problem was with the idea of pretense and manipulation simply to try to get a women into bed

    I would hope that no one here is actually advocating that, except in the narrowest sense of believing that all communication with intent to obtain a desired outcome is some form of manipulation. At its best, Game is just a form of marketing and salesmanship. You start with a product (yourself) that you believe is worthwhile; if you think you aren’t worthwhile, then you clearly have bigger problems. Marketing is a matter of making that product’s advantages evident to a potential buyer; salesmanship is converting an interested buyer into an actual buyer. (I’m certainly not one of those folks who thinks that marketing/sales are fundamentally dishonest professions.)

    I’m slightly amazed that, as a self-described nerd, “just being yourself” works more than rarely. Clearly you have some unique talents that, perhaps, you do not yourself fully appreciate.

    Just for starters, the numbers we are talking about are pretty darn high. In order to date hundreds of attractive women over a decade, that first means you have to *meet* quite a few women on a day-to-day basis, or have an extraordinarily high “conversion rate”, or possibly both. I would suspect that the average “nerd” meets fewer attractive women than you date. (“Meet” here means more than just saying “hi” on the street — at least some substance to the interaction.)

    Just to use myself as an example — there is a significant percentage of days where I have zero offline social contact with *any* person. (Working from home is a factor.) More broadly, outside of going to bars/clubs, I generally don’t run into a lot of young, attractive women. (I grant that there are a variety of things I could do to increase that number.) I would suspect that many nerdy guys who have graduated from college run into similar numbers of attractive women, perhaps fewer if they have no interest in bars/clubs.

    I may also have a distorted idea of what constitutes a “nerdy” guy. My friends may be a very biased sample; they are, after all, mostly professional software engineers. My guess is that you are *very* different from most of those guys.


  46. I admit I overdraw; although I think the confines of a text box exacerbates this tendancy. I do find the smirk to be a wonderful weapon. I find the scathing of the ‘reconfigure your life’ comment to be dead on.

    To say anything to Zamani’s edge of conversation here: When it comes to “being yourself”, your identity is a malleable thing. It changes. Consciously directing it seems unnatural to some, but it is really just another form of enlightenment.

    And dude, what the hell is this thing with the paranoid vice principal? I can’t see myself having the patience to deal with that. I can’t help but think some so paranoid as to have some serious baggage.


  47. Finally, T mentioned that he is no longer single, and I’ve been thinking about this aspect of Game – does it work in a relationship or marriage? Can it?

    Yes, because women NEVER stop testing you. They may do it less frequently over time, but it never totally stops.


  48. to #64, Ul

    1) Was this girl at any point coming on to me?

    No, she was a rude woman angling to cut in line.
    You were her roadkill.
    You should have busted her on it; instead , you pandered to her success and apologized for her because of her “decent looks.”

    2) Would it have been possible to game her?

    No, because she had no respect for you after you let her run over you.

    What do you think?

    You are a wuss.


  49. on September 30, 2008 at 4:12 pm Normally lurking

    @ 68 dirty blonde

    Thanks – that makes sense.


  50. @75.
    fair enough.
    my bad.


  51. @RickyRaw – Not to slam the general principle of skill development in the area of gaming, I nonetheless think it’s poor to compare job interviews to meeting women strangers in public.

    Job interviews are typically initiated by a call for applicants. You hear about them via online job sites or in the newspaper, and you respond to engage in a mutually understood game of scrutiny, query, and possible interest. Indeed, there are a litany of generally accepted rules and behaviors that applicants can master to improve their chances for eventual offers.

    But attempting to break the indifference or outright filtering behavior of an attractive woman in public is far more akin to cold-calling or salesmanship. You’re basically taking someone who doesn’t know anything about you (except that perhaps you represent potential trouble in the form of harassment – cuz she just *knows* you’re going to start talking to her), and making a pitch out of the blue. Even if it’s a cute one.

    Done poorly, it’s not even salesmanship; it’s *panhandling* for female attention and subsequent progression. So, the value of achieving game is not about learning to “interview” better; it’s about turning panhandlers into professional cold-calling salesmen.

    The first date might make the better case for a comparison to a job interview, though.


  52. The first date might make the better case for a comparison to a job interview, though.

    Yes. Except that she is interviewing to be with you, not the other way around. That’s the attitude you have to keep.


  53. Good point PA.


  54. “I think girls spew these kinds of useless empty platitudes because deep down they understand it will keep the betas running endlessly on their hamster wheels, thus ensuring the dating pool of “genuine” alphas stays uncorrupted.”

    truer words were never spoken.