FYI #2: George Sodini Was Not A Pickup Artist

To all the femdopes suffering from post traumatic reading incomprehension currently linking to my last few series of posts about George Sodini and menstruating indignantly all over the internet, you should get your logic straight before flapping your gums:

  1. George Sodini was not a PUA. He went to an R. Don Steele seminar and sat in the audience with a bunch of other losers in love. Attending a pickup workshop and sitting in the audience listening to R. Don Steele for a few hours does not make one a pickup artist, nor does it make one a murderer. Becoming a pickup artist requires months of learning and real world practice to see consistently positive results. We have no evidence that Sodini did either.
  2. It is not incitement to murder nor is it an expression of misogyny to observe that Sodini might not have gone on a killing spree had he learned effective game and diligently applied it to his dealings with women to boost his confidence, land a few dates, and relieve his 20 year dry spell. Currently, game is being used successfully by millions of non-murderous men the world over to improve their love lives. It may have even been used successfully on you.
  3. Loose cannon psychopaths walk among us. Get used to it. See: Lorena Bobbitt.
  4. You’re still femtards.

Yours in unreconstructed evil.





Comments


  1. Hahaha, vaginas.

    Life would be so much easier for you if you just plunged into gay sex. But its cool. As long as the balls aren’t touching, its not really gay.

    No more women and their nasty hormones and scary bits and blood spurting yeast holes amirite

    Like


  2. I don’t read your comments section (because people are stupid), but I’m having a hard time seeing how anyone could be upset. Here’s your argument:

    1) Had George Sodini learned game, he might not have killed people. (premise)
    2) Therefore, there is at least one person who, had he learned game, might not have killed people. (Existential Generalization)
    3) Therefore, learning game can stop at least one person from killing others. (from 2)
    4) There are probably more people out there who might end up killing people if they don’t learn game. (from 2 by induction)
    5) Learning game can save more people from killing other people. (2,3)
    6) Killing people is bad. (assumption)
    7) If killing people is bad and game can save some people from killing other people, then those people should learn game. (assumption)
    6) So, every frustrated beta should learn game. (from 4,5,7)

    I think it’s sound. Whence the anger?

    Like


  3. during things like this, feminists/liberals etc just want to see everyone pile on the oppressor. there is no room for empathy or rationalization or takeaways in their eyes. don’t ask questions, just nod along as everyone spouts how evil he was and how we have to stop this……the problem is, if you don’t talk about it openly, you can’t find out what the evil stems from or how to prevent it.

    Like


  4. The very fact that femfists cannot tell the difference between a PUA and a guy like Sondini says something.

    Like


  5. on August 7, 2009 at 1:10 am Willard Libby

    George Sodini Was Not A Pickup Artist

    File it under Obvious along with “Hitler was not a big fan of the Jews.”

    Like


  6. While I have not read through the rest of the comments today there is just one thing that comes to mind. Its probably already been mentioned but the femtard response on this is much higher because Sodini was a beta.

    We all know how women in general vehemently hate betas. Consider the subset with lower intelligence (femtards) and a platform to fester (the internet) and you have a bunch of idiots angry about the wrong thing. I assume this is what Roissy’s post here is aiming to resolve.

    The femtards would of much rather he just killed himself as its just another dead beta.

    No worries, in a week the kids won’t even remember it.

    Plan of action: redirect their attention to Bill Clintons heroism.

    Like


  7. on August 7, 2009 at 1:29 am The Fifth Horseman

    The ‘Game Can Save Lives’ thread is a work of art. It was like the main battle in Lord of the Rings : Return of the King. 1200 comments, with at least 10 feminazis coming over from Mordor, and getting beaten down by a tag team of the best and brightest of the regulars here.

    Epic, epic comment thread.

    Like


  8. on August 7, 2009 at 1:32 am unlearning genius

    I left the states after living there for 7 years. I did see a lot of men that were just ticking time bombs. But cmon american women aren’t that difficult, tease them a little … just be playful .. if you do not see interest .. move to the next target .. I love american women the most .. euro women are such snobs and seem to go for eurofag like soft men .. asian women are just looking for a rich husband ..and they are intellectualy vapidest .. so there you have it the coolest women in the world .. american women … the only thing i disliked about the states was that you had to work your ass off.. i miss america so much .. I cannot understand why a guy cannot get laid .. when a darker skinned skinny dude who only wore old t’s and jeans could get slightly above averaged 20 yr old girls by just being himself.

    I even had some loser guys come by and pass of strongly racist remarks when they saw me with a white girl .. and this was in ann arbor … strange country indeed

    Regardless of what roissy says, there is no way some guys are ever going to learn game. They simply cannot adopt the psychological attitude that is needed. American guys can go to Asia and get much better looking women who ARE looking for providers. But their PRIDE won’t allow them to do this.

    Like


  9. on August 7, 2009 at 1:34 am Admiel Carcer

    Sweet Marduk, it is good to see Tiamat’s filthy splatter-spawn discomfited once again.

    Like


  10. please, pleasepleaseplease, ENOUGH on this fucking wack job. he represented neither men, game, pickup, nor anything other than his unfortunate and twisted self. he’s *not* a symbol of oppressed beta maledom (roissy has been clear about that – some commenters unfortunately less so).

    some of you fucktards – lucifer, AJ, others – you know who you are – seem to think this story represents some kind of justification for violence, rage, and murder against women. wise up, grow up, get control of yourselves. stop embarrassing your host and this board with that shit.

    this does *not* apply to whiskey’s point about the disaffection and alienation from society of involuntarily celibate beta males. that’s real and a long term social problem, albeit one that will take place over a timeframe of generations, not years. but it doesn’t really relate to the going-postal outbursts of violence, simply because most men in that situation, though unhappy and withdrawn from the sexual marketplace, *do not* go crazy and gun down people.

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  11. maurice,

    He responded to his predicament in a way that he thought was appropriate.

    Why don’t you argue with him and tell him that is pathetic.. oh wait, that is exactly what he heard of felt for all of his adult life. Do you see the problem?

    Like


  12. on August 7, 2009 at 1:54 am russell rodriguez

    did anybody heard that he had kid but the mother did not talk to him after she still is only pregnant? poor firend he never got to see the kid, or the mother killed the kid before it was born??? i hope whatever women did that to the poor man burns in hell if what i hear is honest.

    Like


  13. ””””””unlearning genious,
    American guys can go to Asia and get much better looking women who ARE looking for providers. But their PRIDE won’t allow them to do this.””””””””’

    Don’t think it is pride so much as it doesn’t seem doable. If guys get a couple jobs and focus and save money yea doable. Now that would also allow them to get american chicks at the same time.

    Like


  14. Smartly said, as usual.

    Like


  15. Well what bothers me is talking of this guy as a ‘victim’ of some sort. It’s as if some think he was deserving of female attention of some sort for some reason. It’s quite probable this guy thought he was ‘owed’ attention from females in a way that when they didn’t ‘deliver’ he merely went into ‘debt collection’ mode.

    Like


  16. He was a victim society gave him no way out. If you want this not to happen society must condone allowing him to die peacefully if he wants to. Must be a place to go for final peace that he doesn’t have to do himself.

    Like


  17. To the Bard and many other’s.

    Take your lame ass, beta smelling, balless sacks of crap spewing forth from you mouth and find some womyn who will bugger you so we can all be spared your garbage.

    My God, I actually smell shit when I’m reading some of your posts.

    Like


  18. “[editor: just go take care of your kid already and log off the internet. america thanks you for your cooperation.]”

    Please, if her kid is a baby, don’t discourage her from logging onto the internet. If she spends more time offline, she’s bound to spend more time with her baby out in the world. That would mean one more a baby unleashing death-curdling screams while I’m out trying to have a quit lunch somewhere.

    Like


  19. “He was a victim, society gave him no way out. If you want this not to happen society must condone allowing him to die peacefully if he wants to. Must be a place to go for final peace that he doesn’t have to do himself.” – Gunslinger

    He had access to guns and bullets therefore he could have committed suicide quickly and painlessly without harming others. Besides, if someone one has a problem there’s no obligation for society to fix it.

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  20. Well the truth is society/religion definetly has a problem if you kill yourself. Society/religion has no problem calling people losers and heaping shit on them. Society/religion has no problem with people suffering it makes some people feel better to think there are people that are worse off. Society/religion condems the man for killing those people. Where is the solution in that?

    I have proposed a solution that will help both society and people in pain. Society helps those in pain by not condemning them for there choice to leave. Society gains by not having people choosing to take out members of society that have condemned them in there eyes. They go peacefully off to dreamland never to return.

    People have the balls to talk bad about others they just don’t have the balls to help someone do anything about it. People only seem to have the balls to kill a fetus not the balls to help an adult go on there way.

    It is tough no one can disprove god. If we can kill fetus/baby then we should be able to kill pre-dead in pain/human being

    Why should people be here if they don’t want to be but can’t leave?

    Now I think the real fear of the making it socially ok to do might be that everyone would go ahead and choose to leave. Well if that happens I guess people weren’t meant to be here anyway don’t ya think?

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  21. Did this guy want to be a “player” or was he just looking for a young woman for marriage and children?

    Like


  22. The modern animus that is so increasingly evident between the sexes in many modern White-Western nations would’ve never occurred if organized Jewry and their anti-White/anti-Western ideas hadn’t hijacked our nations and gained near-hegemonic control in the post-WWII era – http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/authors/Kurtagic-Men.html

    Like


  23. Well WP I think the internet might actually be what repairs that divide.

    Like


  24. Must admit this man’s story has haunted me since I first read his blog posts the other day. Not that I feel sorrier for him than his victims – but he was a tragic figure and they were simply tragically unlucky.

    (Note to readers: tragic in this instance doesn’t mean “really, really sad”.)

    Part of what’s tragic about him was that in some ways he was a near-miss, unlike Cho or Harris (of Harris and Klebold fame) or Ted Bundy, who were pretty much beyond reach from an early age. An earlier intervention by an older man with some worldly wisdom and knowledge of “game” might have helped him. It’s clear, though, that by the time he was writing those blog posts it was too late: the man’s despair was too complete and he wasn’t capable of responding to any outside intervention. He needed treatment; he needed anti-depressants.

    I don’t think he was a psycho/sociopath: if I’ve understood the definition of sociopath, it’s someone whose narcissism is so complete that he/she can’t feel any empathy at all and also can’t see any faults in him- or herself.

    This man seems to have been capable of some empathy even at the height of his despair: not shooting people at his office because he liked them; feeling sorry for the people there who had been fired; not shooting as many people as he might have, as if he were shocked by the reality of killing after his fantasies of it. And he was more than willing to see that he might have faults in his approach to women, or even basic flaws in his personality, and to try to change them. Those who say that he thought women “owed” him affection or attention are, I think, mistaken, at least according to what I’ve seen of his blog.

    I don’t think, though, that you can blame society as a whole for his fate. There have always been people, esp. men, who are shut out from the mating game and desperate about it, but most of them don’t turn into crazed killers. I do think better parenting might have saved him but it’s not his parents’ fault either. It was in the end his own fault, both that women avoided him and that he chose to act on his rejection the way he did – but he tried hard for years to do the right things and with wiser counsel he might have pulled it off. And that’s why I feel sorry for him.

    Like


  25. […] post:  FYI #2: George Sodini Was Not A Pickup Artist « Roissy in DC Categories : […]

    Like


  26. on August 7, 2009 at 7:16 am unlearning genius

    I actually see undercurrents of sympathy and pity from you guys here. This is so sad. Many guys go unlaid we don’t see them stamping foot and going postal.

    I also contend the fact that “learning game” is NOT useful. First of all, has there been any objective study done on the efficacy of it. All we have is the word of mouth of guys who have clearly everything to gain by bragging.. including self-delusion. When your entire sense of self is based on the “self-proclaimed” ability to bed hot women …quickly… i expect you to cook the books by claiming more numbers and hotter women.

    Why does not a PUA come forward and offer his high-sextane life to be recorded on tape 24×7 for 4 months say with faces whited out for preserving identity? If the results are real , then there should be no fear. Do it for science fuckers … you almighty “alphas” (sarcasm). Blogs touting your “alpha”ness and your verbose theories do not count.

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  27. Gunslinger,

    I think that assisted suicide thing you are always promoting is a really bad idea. It would not have helped in this case because Sodini wanted to get revenge and make a statement. So do most murder-suicides, I think, and those who simply want to die can always find a way without the murder. I don’t think we should force anybody to stay alive, either, but the government facilitating suicide for people who are not terminally ill is just wrong, and even then it is highly problematic. Please stop promoting suicide as the solution to all problems.

    Like


  28. Gunslingergregi,

    He did not want to die, he wanted revenge. I think you do not get it.. he felt no reason to care about a society that had not cared about him.

    I do not think that any society can expect people whom it does not care about to still care about it.

    Like


  29. “femdopes…post traumatic reading incomprehension …menstruating indignantly…flapping your gums:”

    LMAO, well stated. Hey, waitaminute, when I talk like this I get called a bitter beta; I must learn Game, not so much for the pussy, but so I can slag feminists with impunity.

    Like


  30. aliasclio,

    You don’t get it… read his blog a couple of times..

    It comes down to “I fulfilled my part of the social contract, but society stiffed me by reneging on it’s part and therefore it will have to pay”.

    Society works on a ‘quid pro quo’ basis, once it starts failing to deliver what is implicitly promised, it will fall apart.

    Like


  31. “Why does not a PUA come forward and offer his high-sextane life to be recorded on tape 24×7 for 4 months say with faces whited out for preserving identity?” – unlearned genius.

    Duh! A PUA is a Beta trying to be an Alpha. He’s using sneaky tactics to get him ahead of all the other Betas. If everyone Beta was PUA then any advantage is lost. It’s just like the military with a need-to-know basiis – PUA tactics are only given away when they’re out of date.

    Like


  32. “Society works on a ‘quid pro quo’ basis, once it starts failing to deliver what is implicitly promised, it will fall apart.”

    Again I must wonder what this guy was looking for. If all he wanted was marriage and children, then one can argue that society failed him. Not that it excuses or justifies his conduct, of course.

    Like


  33. This Mark Ames article was a good explanation.

    Revenge of the Nerd

    Like


  34. Bhetti was a conteder for Sexiest Female Commenter until she revealed herself as not being blessed with perfect A-cup or B-cup boobies.

    Like


  35. Nice to see I was at least a contender. 🙂

    This whole Sodini saga is just awful, on all sides. What is really worrisome is that, as more betas get less pussy — since as Game spreads, and more alphas get laid more, the number of unpleasured betas has to rise — we will see more craziness like this, ie Sodiniesque betas acting out with a rifle when they can’t use their, ahem, gun.

    Happy Friday

    P.S. I have had several gals say to me re: Sodini, “Hey, he wasn’t bad looking, what was up with that?” Interesting.

    Like


  36. on August 7, 2009 at 9:35 am Horatio Sanchez

    I know what you’re trying to get at here, Roissy (clearing up facts for those to whom facts mean little or nothing, AKA femtards) – but really, would it be such a bad thing if women thought PUAs were dangerous and potentially a little crazy?

    Speaking of that, I bet Sodini would have had better prospects with the ladies after doing his shooting rampage, if he didn’t off himself, of course. Certainly couldn’t have been any worse. I think that speaks to the fucked-up-ness factor of his situation pretty well. You’re a decent looking guy, in shape, have a cool quarter million in the bank, aren’t a complete genetic failure (having reproduced), but may be a little neurotic? Sorry, no poon for you, ever. Same guy but now you’ve signaled a little thuggery by going on a shooting rampage? Poon availability can only go up from such a low base.

    Like


  37. The Bard carketh:

    I don’t read your comments section (because people are stupid), but I’m having a hard time seeing how anyone could be upset. Here’s your argument:

    1) Had George Sodini learned game, he might not have killed people. (premise)
    2) Therefore, there is at least one person who, had he learned game, might not have killed people. (Existential Generalization)
    3) Therefore, learning game can stop at least one person from killing others. (from 2)
    4) There are probably more people out there who might end up killing people if they don’t learn game. (from 2 by induction)
    5) Learning game can save more people from killing other people. (2,3)
    6) Killing people is bad. (assumption)
    7) If killing people is bad and game can save some people from killing other people, then those people should learn game. (assumption)
    6) So, every frustrated beta should learn game. (from 4,5,7)

    I think it’s sound. Whence the anger?

    Hey Aristotle – for the obvious answer, check your very first sentence.

    I made bold thine text so you could see it thru your thick, horn-rimmed bi-focals and or pincenez.

    Like


  38. PA

    It is time for the first ever Commenter Awards.

    dude – are you serious?

    Like


  39. Lucifer

    aliasclio,

    You don’t get it… read his blog a couple of times..

    It comes down to “I fulfilled my part of the social contract, but society stiffed me by reneging on it’s part and therefore it will have to pay”.

    Society works on a ‘quid pro quo’ basis, once it starts failing to deliver what is implicitly promised, it will fall apart.

    When did society promise anybody they were going to get laid?

    Like


  40. G Manifesto should be in the running for personality award along with game/pickup commentary. And hell, David Alexander.

    Vladimir, Kamal, most brainy and informative.

    But can’t nobody touch Obsidian’s flava. I hope the guy writes a book.

    Also have to admire Nicole’s teflon persistence. Nicole can get wordy sometimes but often makes interesting points. It would be unfair to label her an attention-whore troll.

    Like


  41. From “auspicious” – to awaiting moderation in one day.

    On the anniversary of Nixon’s resignation, no less.

    Like


  42. “Becoming a pickup artist requires months of learning and real world practice to see consistently positive results. We have no evidence that Sodini did either.”

    I think we actually have proof positive that he did not do either – to-wit, the 20 year dry spell.

    It is kind of obvious that he wasn’t a PUA – he had a 20 year dry spell!

    Like


  43. Sexiest Female Commenter.
    Winner: sarah I

    oh..how could i forget about my cougar fling!

    Like


  44. on August 7, 2009 at 10:34 am Dreg-Skeletor

    Dear George. WTF dude?!? ?REALDOLLS hello!

    Like


  45. PA created a huge number of unnecessary categories because he wants to please the largest number of people possible and avoid the resentment of the un-prized

    From my part, I am only prize-able in the “financial”, “racist” or “Hispanic quota” categories.

    Like


  46. ROISSY AND EVERYONE YOU HAVE TO READ THIS

    It is guaranteed to make an impression on even the most hardened and cynical of you —

    It is F. Roger Devlin’s review of two recent books, “Women’s Infidelity” by Michelle Langley, and “Taken Into Custody: The War Against Fatherhood, Marriage, and the Family” by Stephen Baskerville. The review is entitled:

    “Rotating Polyandry — And Its Enforcers”

    I know that very few people share my sense of humor, which is nothing more or less than the humor of Hell: but where I found occasion for huge, rude, horse-laughs, you will no doubt find confirmation, enlightenment, camraderie, and no doubt many other valuable and positive things which I miss because of my narrow focus (that the human race is essentially a grotesque, unnatural, virus-like mutation which behaves accordingly)…. Enjoy!

    http://www.theoccidentalquarterly.com/archives/vol7no2/v7no2_Devlin.pdf

    Like


  47. @ katto

    have you heard about Steve Sailer?

    Did you know the latest breaking news? Obama won the election!

    Like


  48. lolol

    Like


  49. heheehh

    I admit I am not 100% familiar with everything linked to or mentioned in this blog and its comments, there’s simply too much, and 90% of the comments are worthless, which makes it even more difficult to find the good stuff

    Like


  50. I am sure that comments linking to DEvlin in August-2009 are among the 10% worthy reading

    Roissy, have you heard about a guy named Roosh? He lives in DC!

    Like


  51. Tarl,

    If you treat implicit social assumptions with the same legalism as credit card contracts, you cannot blame his response.

    Like


  52. @FP- i thought nixon resigned on 8/8/74, not the 7th.

    @PA- how did you get in charge of the awards committee? i guess that makes you ineligible to nominate yourself… i could quibble with some of the choices, but nice idea. maybe our host can turn it into a post at some point in the future.

    @clio- nice post. i get the empathy for his condition, but really, the only reason we’re talking about this frustrated beta, as opposed to the millions of others out there, is because this one committed multiple murders. he had the opportunity to change his life in any number of ways, but failed to do so.

    Like


  53. Sodini was a PUA, but a failed one. He is one of the many, many guys out there who, even if Game is explained to them, will never be able to pick up the nuances enough to implement it in real life. For Sodini and his ilk, if he could have actually been the sort to successfully put Game into action, he would not have needed it in the first place. So no, Game is not a panacea for that type of guy. He even had trouble interacting with other males, so women would have been completely beyond his scope.

    Like


  54. on August 7, 2009 at 12:14 pm mandy been here a while

    I recommend the article Experianced Father linked.

    Like


  55. its really ridiculous you would talk like this about women.
    i want to be a fan roissy , seriously .

    anyway i agree that if he couldve gotten some game together and had some better luck with women he might not have done this .though not all guys in that position choose to kill innocent people .
    maybe he was just a sociopath .
    no fixing him

    Like


  56. I like to dissect girls, do you know I’m utterly insane?

    Like


  57. Lucifer,

    I know you must have a mother, so suppose she was shot by this guy. Would you be so sanguine about it if that happened? I understand your point, but you seem to carry it a bit too far. You’re the last person I would expect to use a society-based argument to justify these actions. Isn’t collective guilt a tactic used by the left (who I know you despise)?

    This guy did have options. Lots of options. In fact, he had many advantages (although I’m sure he didn’t think so): he was reasonably decent looking, he wasn’t fat, he had no debt, he appeared to be healthy, he seemed to be intelligent, etc. Unfortunately, he was weak.

    If you put “how to pick up women” in Google, the first link you get is to the Art of Seduction website, which certainly *is* part of modern PUA/Game theory, unlike Steele. You telling me he couldn’t Google?

    Like


  58. maurice

    @FP- i thought nixon resigned on 8/8/74, not the 7th.

    well, with moderation tentatively applied, I seek timely punctuality.

    ’tis a bane on my
    trenchant
    whimsy

    mout

    Like


  59. Soldini was not clueless – he was actively clue-resistant.

    The baseball analogies are apt. He was an uncoordinated older guy who wanted to take a course, read a book, and go out and play in the Majors.

    If he had any ability to absorb the information, he would have absorbed that Game, he would have figured out that it is mostly a way to help a guy go from involuntarily celibate or getting women below his expected level to realizing his potential more fully and getting a SOMEWHAT higher level of woman.

    Like


  60. @maurice – “some of you fucktards – you know who you are – seem to think this story represents some kind of justification for violence, rage, and murder against women. wise up, grow up, get control of yourselves. stop embarrassing your host and this board with that shit.”

    Amen.

    Like


  61. On the commenter awards I’d have to say Firepower is the funniest.

    Like


  62. ””””””””””””on August 7, 2009 at 7:25 am Arpagus
    Gunslinger,

    I think that assisted suicide thing you are always promoting is a really bad idea. It would not have helped in this case because Sodini wanted to get revenge and make a statement. So do most murder-suicides, I think, and those who simply want to die can always find a way without the murder. I don’t think we should force anybody to stay alive, either, but the government facilitating suicide for people who are not terminally ill is just wrong, and even then it is highly problematic. Please stop promoting suicide as the solution to all problems.””””””””””’

    ””””””””””””””””’on August 7, 2009 at 7:45 am Lucifer
    Gunslingergregi,

    He did not want to die, he wanted revenge. I think you do not get it.. he felt no reason to care about a society that had not cared about him.

    I do not think that any society can expect people whom it does not care about to still care about it.”””””””””””””’

    Yea fellas I am failing to believe that the two of you have ever actually hit bottom. I have. So what I am saying is that it is harder to kill yourself straight out because of all the societal pressure from growing up in religion and family and then of course you have to fight your bodies natural inclination to stay alive. I went through the phase where yea I wanted to just kill myself failing that I moved on to wanting to kill a lot of people. Started planning on going door to door back in the day. This is the reason I say let people leave the planet. Why keep people here that don’t want to be. If I would have started I would have killed a bunch of people and then offed myself. Well obviously I am still here today. I couldn’t do it. My inner morals overroad my wanting to leave. Would have been nice though to have the option of walking into a place for a nice clean out of life. Then I would have to have worked all those years and go through inconveniences. I guess I wanted to stay for the challenge and because unsure about the unknown. I am telling you though people are not killing mass people because bla bla bla they are doing it to get courage to off themselves.

    Like


  63. ASF,

    He did not care because he felt nobody cared about him. He had reached a point beyond good or evil.

    Having said that, it did not have to end this way. Even if he had access to some occasional willing single mother pussy, it would not have gone this far.

    Remember that he found 40-something women (who went to the same gym) attractive. So though he would have preferred a tight 20 something hottie, he was clearly willing to settle for a non-ugly woman who cared about him and had sex with him.

    Is that so hard to understand?

    Like


  64. Sodini was just a lonely, neglected guy — fucked over by the many sexy, self-centered, manipulative women in this world — and he reacted as anyone would after a lifetime of rejection, frustration and social/sexual isolation. Ladies — don’t even TRY to relate to this, because you will never comprehend the reality of that existence.

    Until any of you have lived that kind of life for ONE MONTH — totally ignored and anonymous… rejected at every turn… watching everybody else “get it” so naturally and easily while you remain alone and invisible — don’t even ATTEMPT to give an opinion on this subject.

    Most rejected “nice-guy losers” will simply kill themselves, or live isolated in a room, and America’s sexy sweethearts are very content with that, as they pursue their “bad boys.” If Sodini were given the chance (by women) to lead a normal sex life, there’s no way in HELL he would be out shooting people.

    Like


  65. on August 7, 2009 at 1:18 pm Cannon's Canon

    i found a jezebel commenter who followed the logic train of “oh, if only all women objectified themselves and had sex with losers, according to MRA assholes, we’d save so many lives!”

    she remarked, “i will now change my name back to ‘whorey mcfucksalot.’ ”

    she has a blog and lives in nyc. i sent her an email asking her out, loosely following the standard rules of the game and of course not tipping my hand. i’ll let you all know if i make any headway.

    Like


  66. If you treat implicit social assumptions with the same legalism as credit card contracts, you cannot blame his response.

    I don’t think there’s an implicit social assumption that everybody’s going to get laid.

    If one accepts the premise, the conclusion still does not follow. What legal contract permits you to kill the person who breaks it (or more accurately, to kill a bunch of people to whom you have no contractual obligation)? Those women had no contract with him, even implicitly, and the idea that he “cannot be blamed” for killing them is batshit fucking crazy.

    Like


  67. Tarl,

    Did you notice that he stopped caring about such rationalizations for some time before he started planning. The simple fact is – He did not care.

    Like


  68. A lot of feminist and beta haters are waiting for the smoking gun where they can say the pick up is wrong, evil, unwholesome, and leads to nothing but death and destruction. They just can’t admit that PU, when studied under a mentor who isn’t 70-years-old, leads to an enjoyable life of sex with a pile of attractive women.

    If the killer was an alpha who banged as recently as this century, I’d give pause to their arguments.

    Like


  69. Tarl,

    If you want a functional and livable society in the long term, you better get used to that particular implicit assumption.

    If not, you won’t have a functional and livable society. Your choice…

    Think of it as food stamps for poor people, it is either that or they will commit crime to feed themselves and follow a charismatic leader.

    Like


  70. Personality Award
    Winner: David Alexander
    Runner-up: Tupac Chopra

    Are you sure that’s not reversed? In keeping with character, I should decline the award, but it is nice to feel appreciated once in a while by adults.

    Best Game/Pick-up Commentary
    Winner: Dave from Hawaii

    Even though I don’t believe in game for myself, and I think it should be used primarily for expressed purpose of securing as many short-term sexual relationships with as many hot women as possible, if I had to recommend game to somebody, Dave’s approach is the one that oddly leaves me the least sickened.

    Bhetti was a conteder for Sexiest Female Commenter until she revealed herself as not being blessed with perfect A-cup or B-cup boobies.

    Joke: Bhetti, if you sport nails and heels, I can learn game for you. 😛

    No wait, that’s highly beta. Sub-human male strikes again.

    Sexiest Female Commenter
    Winner: Alias Clio

    Just as how I found the over hyped rankings for the average women rather frightening, I am too displeased with this notion of Clio as sexy. She’s a religious Canadian intellectual in her thirties which basically ensures she can never be considered sexually attractive in any form what so ever. Now, if she had giant DD cups, a 40 in ass, some nails, and make up with a sexy attire, then we could reconsider.

    Like


  71. A lot of feminist and beta haters are waiting for the smoking gun where they can say the pick up is wrong, evil, unwholesome, and leads to nothing but death and destruction.

    roosh is right to make this connection between feminists and beta haters. imagine two different dystopian societies. the first is a right-wing christian theocracy where women are kept on a short leash in order to enforce monogamy, immigrants are kept out to keep america ‘pure’, and the races are kept segregated to minimize ethnic strife. the second is a leftist, feminist, multiculturalist society where a comprehensive welfare state forces the productive to subsidize the unproductive, where female choice is given full vent and beta males are forced to pick up the tab by draconian alimony and child support laws, and hate speech and hate crimes are prosecuted robustly so as not to upset the status quo.

    in both of these societies, guys like roissy, roosh, and g would be public enemies and their sites would be banned.

    Like


  72. if women wouold just give the nice guys a chance in the dating scene, this whole tragedy could have been averted. i hope some kind of lesson was learned here

    Like


  73. Because what PU does essentially is take power away from feminists, lowering the value of their vagina, while also not giving betas a “society/women sucks” out for their failure with women. Both groups would be a lot happier if PU would just go away.

    Look for future mass murderers to be somehow connected with the scene.

    Like


  74. off topic question , is the army a good place for an beta/omega to break out of his shell and be better with women?

    [editor: i’m not a military guy, but i would guess yes.]

    Like


  75. I heard Mandy! XD blames Sordini for the failure of Obama’s health care plan. because he’s a racist. Bec ause she heard it somewhere.

    Like


  76. in an attempt to derail the seemingly never-ending discussion about this loser — check out Susan Boyle in Harper’s Bazaar.

    she’s generally held up on these boards as the epitome of unfuckable. but if a woman styled like this approached me with the right blend of sweetness and poise, I might think about it.

    but then again, I’ll admit that I tend to enjoy older women. more independent, less clingy, and often better conversationalists than college girls (who often make me think “Gucci Gucci goo”). and, as Robt Heinlein said of young widows: “They won’t yell, don’t smell, won’t tell, and are grateful as hell.”

    thoughts?

    Like


  77. if women wouold just give the nice guys a chance in the dating scene, this whole tragedy could have been averted. i hope some kind of lesson was learned here

    Fuck that. “Nice guys” should just man up instead.

    Like


  78. on August 7, 2009 at 2:49 pm Comment_Whatever

    I have found another case of Murder, Tarl and Whiskey.

    I am curious what you think should be done with the murderer.

    http://www.nwfdailynews.com/articles/freeport-19418-walton-call.html

    Like


  79. Did you notice that he stopped caring about such rationalizations for some time before he started planning. The simple fact is – He did not care.

    The fact that he did not care does not mean that we should not blame him. Most criminals don’t care, when they plan their crimes, that what they intend to do is wrong. That certainly does not mean that we, society, should excuse them or cut them any extra slack because “they don’t care”.

    I don’t care that he didn’t care. If he had lived and I were on a jury, I’d give him the death penalty anyway.

    If you want a functional and livable society in the long term, you better get used to that particular implicit assumption.

    If not, you won’t have a functional and livable society.

    I disagree completely. It has never been true that every guy gets laid. There are always guys who get shut out for one reason or another. Society has no obligation to them whatsoever.

    imagine two different dystopian societies. the first is a right-wing christian theocracy where women are kept on a short leash in order to enforce monogamy, immigrants are kept out to keep america ‘pure’, and the races are kept segregated to minimize ethnic strife.

    Wait, this is a dystopia? What’s the downside? =)

    Like


  80. ””””””””Tarl,
    The fact that he did not care does not mean that we should not blame him. Most criminals don’t care, when they plan their crimes, that what they intend to do is wrong. That certainly does not mean that we, society, should excuse them or cut them any extra slack because “they don’t care”.

    I don’t care that he didn’t care. If he had lived and I were on a jury, I’d give him the death penalty anyway.”””””

    So why does society only kill people that do something horribly wrong. Do you understand how this works?
    If you have to do something horribly wrong to do then that is why people do something horrible before they go so they deserve it. Why can’t society help people die that don’t want to live. Not because they have done anything wrong but because they don’t want to be on the planet. They don’t want to work every day for the rest of their lives or live under lifes conditions. They may need help with dieing though. Why can society only kill after doing something bad but not because someone wants to die?

    Like


  81. Sodini was just a lonely, neglected guy — fucked over by the many sexy, self-centered, manipulative women in this world — and he reacted as anyone would after a lifetime of rejection, frustration and social/sexual isolation.

    This is pure bullshit. “Anyone” would not react that way. “Anyone” who was not a psycho would find other meaning to their lives besides relationships and sex with women.

    Good grief, I pity the fool who gives women so much power that he has to kill himself and others if he doesn’t get any.

    Like


  82. Gunslinger, why should society help someone die who wants to die? Nothing is stopping them from offing themselves. Nothing stopped the guy in Pgh from blowing his brains out in his basement. If you don’t want to be on the planet, great, see ya, suicide is painless.

    On the other hand, society should definitely help people die when they kill other people.

    Like


  83. I don’t think all because of woman I think dude didn’t want to do it anymore. He did not want to go through the motions of life. You wake up go to work eat shit go on vacation and that is about it for most people. If someone figures out that they don’t want to do that until they naturally die. Why does society not make it easy for them to go. For people that want to die there is no morally condoned way to do it. The only way they see society kill someone is if they have done mass killings. This is the wrong message to send. Basically society makes them a prisoner on this world that they don’t want to be on.

    Like


  84. For people that want to die there is no morally condoned way to do it. The only way they see society kill someone is if they have done mass killings.

    People who kill themselves don’t give a damn that society doesn’t condone it – and I don’t think society condemns suicide very strongly anyway.

    If he wanted to “make society kill him” then he could go with “suicide by cop” – e.g. walk around in public with an empty gun until the cops shoot you. That would still be cowardly, but at least he wouldn’t hurt anyone else directly.

    Like


  85. Tarl are you dumb what is stopping them is the fucking religion that tells them they will go to hell for committing suicide. It is also a crime to commit suicide. You can’t be buried in an army cemetary if you commit suicide. Suicide is looked at as being weak. It is not as easy as that. If the media said it wa ok though and was looked at as an ok choice ala abortion then people would not have to do mass killings to get the courage to do it.

    Like


  86. on August 7, 2009 at 3:13 pm Experianced Father

    >Look for future mass murderers to be somehow
    >connected with the scene.

    More like preying on the scene, Roosh.

    Like


  87. Society implies you can only die when your bad. That is why people do bad shit to die. People want to fit in.

    Like


  88. yea it ain’t the puas making people kill it is society that punishes punishes punishes punishes but never takes mercy.

    Like


  89. What’s most comical about all this is all the women saying “he should have just killed himself”. Obviously, these women feel the same way about at least half of all men.

    But what’s insane about this sentiment is their inability to recognize that when you’re in the mood to kill yourself, you have nothing left to lose. Why wouldn’t you go on a killing spree?

    I wonder if it’s a fundamentally feminine inability to understand suicide. When women pretend to commit suicide, it’s just to get attention. Women understand “suicide”, in that feminine way, but they don’t actually understand the desire to end one’s life.

    A man who chooses to end his life unceremoniously is performing an extremely noble act. Going out in a blaze of glory, a la George Sodini, is a much more “normal” behavior.

    Since most feminist-leaning women are more than happy to let the George Sodinis of the world kill themselves, they focus on the symptom rather than the disease. Their concern is not this man’s despair, nor its causes, but finding some way to prevent these last-gasp expressions of rage in the future. Unfortunately for them, no law or cultural taboo can restrain a man at the end of his rope. So their over-reactions can do nothing to stop the next George Sodini, and are likely to create more.

    Like


  90. ”””””””””””””””’MMP
    Sodini was just a lonely, neglected guy — fucked over by the many sexy, self-centered, manipulative women in this world — and he reacted as anyone would after a lifetime of rejection, frustration and social/sexual isolation. Ladies — don’t even TRY to relate to this, because you will never comprehend the reality of that existence.

    Until any of you have lived that kind of life for ONE MONTH — totally ignored and anonymous… rejected at every turn… watching everybody else “get it” so naturally and easily while you remain alone and invisible — don’t even ATTEMPT to give an opinion on this subject.

    Most rejected “nice-guy losers” will simply kill themselves, or live isolated in a room, and America’s sexy sweethearts are very content with that, as they pursue their “bad boys.” If Sodini were given the chance (by women) to lead a normal sex life, there’s no way in HELL he would be out shooting people.”””””””””””””””’

    Yea umm went through two years where yea asked friend to kill me tried to kill self begged god to let me die asked my dad to kill me. Not one fucking person including myself would give me mercy. Underfuckingstand how it is. There is no fucking help. I went to doctor/counselor and I told them the baddest part was that I couldn’t kill myself. They didn’t know what the fuck to do other than give me personality test and a pill. Thought about doing mass murder to give myself the courage maybe to be able to off myself or yea go out in a blaze of glory. I couldn’t do that either. Finally gave up and decided to live life and achieve some goals.

    Like


  91. Understand that no one helped me out. Everyone was content to let me suffer on this fucking planet.

    Like


  92. So you can see when suicide is brought up peoples callousness for the average guy. No mercy for them only mercy kills if your a badboy. pretty lies

    Like


  93. It is not the feminists though mike it is everyone.

    Like


  94. Tarl are you dumb what is stopping them is the fucking religion that tells them they will go to hell for committing suicide. It is also a crime to commit suicide. You can’t be buried in an army cemetary if you commit suicide. Suicide is looked at as being weak. It is not as easy as that. If the media said it wa ok though and was looked at as an ok choice ala abortion then people would not have to do mass killings to get the courage to do it.

    The idea that people are afraid to commit suicide because society condemns it, and therefore commit a crime society condemns even more strongly – mass murder – is so absurd and illogical you should be embarrassed to make this argument.

    I guess you’re happy that liberals are pushing suicide as an “OK choice”?

    Like


  95. “only mercy kills if your a badboy”

    But of course, gregi! Why kill a productive man like Sodini as long as his taxes can go to pay welfare to some single mom who would never give him the time of day?

    Like


  96. ””””Tarl,
    I guess you’re happy that liberals are pushing suicide as an “OK choice”?””””””’

    Yea I would be happy with that.

    Like


  97. Yea mike once they realize your not a danger to people then yea if they leave you alive you have to work to eat and be a good little slave or you get the punishment punishment punishmen but not death no no no

    Like


  98. But of course, gregi! Why kill a productive man like Sodini as long as his taxes can go to pay welfare to some single mom who would never give him the time of day?

    He didn’t want her. Only some young, nubile co-ed, who still wouldn’t give him the time of day. He might have actually had a chance with a desperate enough single mom. This is where America’s “anyone can achieve anything!” mentality comes back to bite itself on the ass. A socially awkward misfit like our mass-murderer should have settled for whoever would have him. Everyone can’t be a Clooney.

    Like


  99. Tarl,

    You are either a woman or a whipped man. You don’t get it..

    Humans are unlike other animals in that they can intentionally take down many others with them. Technology has certainly made that easier, and is precisely the reason why the alpha, beta, omega idea do not work for long in technological societies.

    Think of the kamikaze pilots in ww2. They knew what they were doing, they knew that their actions would not benefit them in any measurable way, but they did it anyway. This is about attrition, not victory. The person knew he was never going to win, but he did it out of spite.

    You do not have leverage over a guy who willing to die for his beliefs. Your only hope against such an adversary is that you get him before he gets you, but in this case there were no real warning signs.

    Like


  100. “He didn’t want her. Only some young, nubile co-ed, who still wouldn’t give him the time of day. He might have actually had a chance with a desperate enough single mom.”

    Many of those single moms were young, nubile co-eds before they went on the government dole. It’s not Sodini’s fault that those women passed him over and decided to tap into his paycheck indirectly rather than directly. In a saner world, those women would have had to provide something to Sodini in exchange for his financial support.

    Like


  101. @Gunslingergregi

    So you’re a pussy since you chickened out of killing yourself. You sound like a total loser, I bet if you did no one would care. I personally wouldn’t want to risk jail time to end someone like you. Not worth it.

    @ Everyone else

    Mystery was a chump and he still dresses one like too. Game can be learned.. money can be made. It is their own fault that they are losers and accomplished nothing.

    Why is everyone defending this shit? I bet most guys won’t marry a warpig just because she had a great personality. Same with women they would rather die than have a kid with a total loser omega. If he had the courage to kill he should have done something. If he wasn’t a dumbass like most betas and omegas he would have went “abroad” to get laid.

    Like


  102. on August 7, 2009 at 4:00 pm Cannon's Canon

    “she has a blog and lives in nyc. i sent her an email asking her out, loosely following the standard rules of the game and of course not tipping my hand. i’ll let you all know if i make any headway.”

    update: she replied that while she appreciates the compliments, she remains happily married.

    i will end this experiment, as ROI yield seems low.

    Like


  103. on August 7, 2009 at 4:01 pm Tupac Chopra

    Clio:

    Must admit this man’s story has haunted me since I first read his blog posts the other day. Not that I feel sorrier for him than his victims – but he was a tragic figure and they were simply tragically unlucky.

    It was in the end his own fault, both that women avoided him and that he chose to act on his rejection the way he did – but he tried hard for years to do the right things and with wiser counsel he might have pulled it off. And that’s why I feel sorry for him.

    It is, I must say, a bit of a mystery that you feel sorry for this guy, when the deprivation he felt was but a drop in the bucket compared to what you did to me WHEN YOU RIPPED MY GODDAMNED HEART OUT AND STOMPED ALL OVER IT FOR ALL THE WORLD TO SEE

    I think I’ll start a blog.

    Like


  104. It is pointless to evaluate Sodini as anything other than a person with severe mental problems. Life is full of frustration and disappointment, for some more than others. Some people turn to drugs or alcohol, some turn to religion, some to pornography and commercial sex. Very few turn to murder/suicide.

    So it’s pointless to speculate what *might* have helped him, because he couldn’t help himself. Nonetheless I will say game would not have helped. Game assumes a normal level of functioning which this person clearly did not have.

    Steele is a big fan of Louise Hay, who for those not familiar is a kind of New Age guru (but not a therapist of any sort as far as I can tell) and I think the “you are responsible for and create your entire life” stuff these people sell is poisonous for people with severe problems like Sodini.

    Like


  105. PUA lifestyle actually adds some meaning to life for people looking to find some. People who are stuck here are looking for some sort of joy to be had looking for what it is that your supposed to stay on the planet for. Society doesn’t offer answers pua does.

    Like


  106. No chas it is not the pua that is poisoness it is the aimless life that is poisoness. People come to conclusion that life is pointless without pua.

    Like


  107. People are searching for meaning to existance. The problem is there is none. PUA tries to give some kinds of goals for something to do when you are on planet. Otherwise just work till you die is not really an answer.

    Like


  108. “It was in the end his own fault, both that women avoided him and…”.

    That is TOTAL BULLSHIT. Women avoid the nicest men, its a fact. It was not his fault that women screwed him over. its never the mans fault (or very seldom). the world was created for pretty women and they make the decisions and run the show. they decide who will “get layed” and who wont. so please dont blame HIM for women avoiding him. he was a victim of all females in society, collectively. (im not condoning his actions however)

    Like


  109. Kinda missing what’s so interesting about this guy that merits 5 posts in 3 days…

    Like


  110. Because this guy was decent looking not fat in shape and made good money and had 250k in assets. He basically had a very good position in life. He still followed through on killing himself. So yea a lot of people probably aspire to be in his position and this guy was there and life still wasn’t worth staying for him. So the conclusion some people came to that it is not worth staying on the planet is validated by this guy.

    Like


  111. on August 7, 2009 at 5:00 pm Ted Thompson

    While most agree that his actions were horrendous, I think George Sodini went down as a martyr, for all of the oppressed, sexually frustrated beta males that are wandering around out there. He brought their life condition to the forefront — a group that never receives attention on a day-to-day basis, suddenly being discussed and analyzed. Perhaps the discussion can prove to be of some value. Is there some social program or something that can be instituted to help such males to cope with the hand that they’ve been dealt..? Just food for thought.

    Like


  112. on August 7, 2009 at 5:05 pm Willard Libby

    Ted Thompson

    While most agree that his actions were horrendous, I think George Sodini went down as a martyr, for all of the oppressed, sexually frustrated beta males that are wandering around out there.

    What about the beta males who were/are married to the victims? Do you think they are a bit frustrated now?

    Do you think any of them would like to carry out preemptive attacks on the omega sociopaths who are out there lurking around their wives and girlfriends?

    Like


  113. well r don steele is more towards older crowd I’d say, however I dont see mystery as the best material out there.

    frankly 48 laws of power and art of seduction by robert greene have helped me a lot more in my game than
    mystery method who seemed more geared towards guys who had low social skills, are nerds, dont have their shit together yet, frat boy type of guy who is looking for naive women. eventually these guys will outgrow the mystery method like you did.

    another author that I found his material to be very REAL, blunt and to the point is ModeOne: let the women know what you’re really thinking…. if you’ve never read his book or heard interviews from the author Alan roger currie, then what are you waiting for!

    this is what he had to say about sodini
    http://www.pr-inside.com/mode-four-author-s-book-warns-men-r1423703.htm

    best

    Like


  114. I for one am deeply grateful for this forum, and for the topics discussed over the past few days, though the topic was an undoubtedly sad affair, both of George Sodini himself, and the people he murdered and/or maimed.

    The past few days have been a very powerful exercise in testing out, in realtime, exactly the many core tenets of Game, thanks to our friends from Jezebl, Feministe, Feministing and the rest of the feminist blogosphere. Their comments and POV is extremely important, because these are the Women in the key demographic out there on the dating market-and, because these internet outlets are part of a larger public policy push on the part of feminists.

    So-what have we learned, based on the comments of our visiting friends?

    1. That Women-particularly those who have not yet reached Menopause-are INCAPABLE of assisting Men wrt dating/mating. They cannot because of the inherent biological, and as a result, psychological, differences inherent btw Women and Men. This is why PUAs frown on Men taking any advice from Women in these areas.

    2. Women, by their natures, have a very hard time seeing the entire chessboard-they tend to have a kind of tunnelvision that Devlin among others have noted. This explains why Feminists only talk about the top dogs but never the losers among Men-and, as we saw here over the past few days, when they do address the latter, it is often w/extreme contempt.

    3. If Feminists were truly interested in reducing the chances of violence against Women, they would fully support mail order brides, legalizing prostitution and escorts, and the like. Studies conducted clearl show, that when porn and hoes are widely available, crime of all kinds against Women drops considerably. These studies, conducted in places like Amsterdam, are easly found on the web. So, the question has to be, why are so many Feminists dead set against such proven anti-violence against Women measures?

    4. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS “GIRL GAME”. As Roissy has recently noted, Game is a skills-based, field tested pursuit, designed to get real results out in the field. For all the vicious ad hominem attacks launched on Mystery by varied guest commenters here, the fact remains that he has a proven track record of bedding some of the most beautiful Women around, AND has taught countless other Men how to do the same. All. Documented.

    Women on the other hand cannot point to any such system that can take a 5 gal and transfomr her to such an extent that she will be able to get marriage proposals from the topmost 1% of all Males in attractiveness and status/resources. Contrary to what some would like to believe, it ain’t He’s Just Not Into You; it’s You’re Just Not That Hot.

    5. Men are Nature’s Wild Card, its labratory. This explains why there is more variation among the male of just about any species than female, and also explains why we see more serial murders, etc. Men need socialization more than Women do, and when this doesn’t happen, bad things result.

    There is more that I could say, but the threads really do speak for themselves. Thanks to all the guest commenters.

    The Obsidian

    Like


  115. Jack Burton,

    He did what many may have considered and he left a trail that is such that we cannot say he was nuts.

    [editor: seriously, if you’re gonna crack, don’t do it on this forum. go find a nice empty basement and keep your killing spree self-contained.]

    Like


  116. This dude was gay. Tt will come out.

    There was no way you go 20 yrs w/o sex. Plain and simple.

    In his ramblings, he notes his net worth is $250,000 and he owns the house, has a new Nissan, and a recent raise/promotion….so not beta on $$.

    As a public service announcement, and to deter future mass murders I present 10 tips that could have saved this guy….from the basic to extreme.

    1-Sell lame house; move to hip townhouse complex or condo downtown…never buy a @ 2br….it just collects dust.

    2-Decorate….kill the a/v shit, put up artwork, have a bar, build game room/screening room…throw out all boxes, junk, storage, etc.

    3-Invest in cool clothes, haircut, teeth, lose mustache

    4- For same money as Nissan he could have had base Camaro, Mustang, Challenger, Solstice or used Vette, BMW, Boxster

    6-Get hookers

    7-Hit Brazil, Thailand and East. Europe for mail order brides

    8-Throw parties; people are cheap and will come for free booze/food

    9-Get Therapy

    10-Get a matchmaker

    Main lesson is that $250,000K and money spent on crap apartment/car could have easily been spent to improve life.

    PUA is not magic. However, spending money is, it creates illusion of magic and will turn many nightmares into heaven….while the cash last.

    Most guys (inc. Roissy) miss this…and leave their money to be lost/spent on future minivans, lipo, old age homes, adult diapers.

    [editor: actually, i agree. this is good advice. especially number one. a decent, even if small, downtown condo will do wonders for a man’s sexy vibe.]

    Like


  117. @obsidian,

    wrong blockquote, I’ll try again:

    THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS “GIRL GAME”

    Consider for a moment, –why are you resistant to believing a woman could manipulate you? –why are women resistant to believing that a man could manipulate them? –must game be “systematic”?, or might individual women instinctively use game, without even thinking about it?

    Like


  118. Silver Fox, you are right! With that kind of money, he could have had hookers every night (nice ones). He could have bought a HELL of a lot of sex with all that dough. Sex is money and money is sex. (Doesn’t say a lot about women, but it’s true, and they’ll admit it). HE HAD THE CASH — WHY WAS HE NOT BANGING EVERY NIGHT — I DON’T GET IT.

    Like


  119. ps, Also R. Don Steel is not crap

    His book is like $8, 100 pages and basically spells out to improve yourself.

    He calls out female hypocrisy on dating, that it.

    He basically says its sales and a numbers game. The harder you sell, to more markets, and more at-bats, the more you will score.

    The PUA, Mack, sarge, neg, blog-stuff of new crop of artists is more cultish/antisocial/pathological and less effective….because in the end it rests on negativity / manipulation.

    Success in life breeds success with women.
    Thats Steele’s #1 rule.

    He is still selling since 1977…that more that can be said for 99.999999999% of PUA gurus today…..truth.

    Like


  120. Anony,

    You said:
    “Consider for a moment, –why are you resistant to believing a woman could manipulate you? –why are women resistant to believing that a man could manipulate them? –must game be “systematic”?, or might individual women instinctively use game, without even thinking about it?”

    I’m not saying that Women can’t manipulate Men at all. The plain truth of it is, that more Women manipulate Men than the other way around, though most Women will never actually admit this.

    Women are resistant to the idea of a Man manipulating them because many of them believe their own hype. Especially now in our times. Nevertheless, Game, works. I’ve done and continue to do it, so have many Men here in this and other forums accross the internet and the globe.

    Game is systematic, Anony. Please read the posts up top that Roissy has written on the home page. Or the Mystery Method. Or The Game. Or any of the other top PUAs in the field. Very little if any is happenstance.

    “Girl Game” is realy contingent on one thing and one thing alone-how inherently beautiful the Woman is. As I’ve said before, please point me to the “Girl Game” system that takes a rather Plain Jane homely sub-5 gal and transforms him to such an extent that she can attract multiple marriage proposals from the Tom Bradys of the world? I’ll wait.

    O

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  121. Hit Brazil, Thailand and East. Europe for mail order brides

    gringos are disgusting. it is not that they get the ugliest girls, but that they behave in the worst fashion. Gringos will take subpar hookers to night clubs and pretend they teenagers in the park

    dengue fever and robbery are good in the sense they both keep the filthy gringos away.

    Like


  122. @obsidian,
    –No one , not men nor women, will even reluctantly, admit to being gamed. Interesting that you prefer the word “manipulation” by women rather than game. Whatever. I won’t quibble.

    Your “Girl Game” from sub-5 to Tom Brady is unrealistic for either gender. Women (manipulate) or game men intuitively, instinctively, without being conscious of it. We can lower a man’s self-perceived value relative to our own.

    Like


  123. only once I saw a foreigner with a girl i considered truly hot, a 9. It was a group of 6 people, three argentinian guys and three brazilian girls, two of which were ugly.

    I felt like murdering the fucking jerk with her.

    Like


  124. on August 7, 2009 at 6:28 pm esgie de la qroue

    “If only women would have given him a chance, if only the society would have looked different, if only this, if only that…”

    Face it: no one was responsible for this guy’s desperation, loneliness, rejection, misery and, most of all, his despicable actions, but himself.

    He was indeed a victim, but only of his own weakness and victim-mentality. He created a world for himself in which no one wanted him and where he had been “rejected by 30 million women”. 30 million women. That’s one rejection every day for 82 191,7 years.

    I highly doubt this sorry excuse for a man approached even one woman a month. He was to hellbent on being a helpless victim to even try.

    Like


  125. Success in life breeds success with women

    yeah. you still would have trouble finding three guys in this forum whose added number of sexual partners beats the highly succesful businessman Roosh V.

    Like


  126. @ esgie de la qroue

    most women working today work in areas that not only do not add value to society, but many do subtract value (i.e, NGOs)

    so those women were actually living from the resources of George while pursuing their hypergamous feelings

    I have the habit of when going out with beta friends to hit on girls away from them, not only because betaness is contagious, but mostly because male success breeds male resentment. I want to keep the friends.

    SO I regularly treat them like girlfriends, denying until death sexual conquests that are deniable

    Like


  127. gig,

    I would not be so sure about that..

    Like


  128. betaness is contagious? holy shit ; (

    Like


  129. on August 7, 2009 at 7:06 pm esgie de la qroue

    @ gig

    “most women working today work in areas that not only do not add value to society, but many do subtract value (i.e, NGOs)

    so those women were actually living from the resources of George while pursuing their hypergamous feelings”

    So what? Am I supposed to feel sorry for him? Guess what: I don’t. I don’t owe shit to society. Neither did George. If he chose to “contribute to society”, and expected to get some pussy in return, then it was a very stupid choice.

    If you choose to feel sorry for him because you think that women indirectly lived off of him, well, I’d advice you to invest your sympathy elsewhere.

    “I have the habit of when going out with beta friends to hit on girls away from them, not only because betaness is contagious, but mostly because male success breeds male resentment. I want to keep the friends.

    SO I regularly treat them like girlfriends, denying until death sexual conquests that are deniable”

    Been there, done that, left that phase.

    Instead of hanging out with jealous beta-friends with a scarcity-mentality, you should seek out high-value friends that are more successful than you with women. They tend to challenge you to become a better man with women, and a better person overall. Why would you want to have friends that does not want you to be succesful?

    Like


  130. Anony,
    As I recall, I was only responding to your use of the word “manipulation”. I had no ulterior motive in using the word myself.

    As for the 5-gal and “Girl Game”, my point is that there is no systematic, field-tested core body of knowledge among Women designed to assist them in getting longterm commitment from th best Males around. Even the Kama Sutra itself, some two thousand years old, is really a sex manual FOR MEN, NOT WOMEN. The plain truth of it is, that the hotter a Woman is, the less she actually has to learn, so to speak; put this together w/the simple fact that getting regular sex is hard for the average guy, and its easy to see why most Women, for example, suck at giving head, pardon the pun.

    Take Lovely Sexy Beauty for example, who is a big advocate of so-called “Girl Game”-when I advised that she, among other things, learn how to get really good sucking dick if her goal was to keep a Man longterm, he reply completely bypassed this point. The reason why is very easy to see-simply put, she doesn’t have to learn how to fuck well, especially if she’s easy on the eyes to begin with. Here in the forum Roissy noted that the hotter the chick the more sexually excited the Man will be. And there’s a lot of truth in that observation. Women don’t need skills in order to get laid or keep a Man. They only need to be hot.

    Which is something that is largely out of their hands, as its mainly a matter of who their parents were. True, more Women are able to tweak their looks today than at any other point in history, but still, if you’re a 5 Plain Jane, the fact of the matter is you’ll never become a bona fide 9. A 7, at best.

    On the other hand, take a look at Mystery and Style, neither would be considered as having leading Man looks. Yet btw them they’ve probably banged more hot Women than have appeared at Hugh Hefner’s parties at his mansion, and that’s saying a lot, since neither of these guys were rich when they really first started out. Which brings me to another point.

    Game can give just about any guy the skills needed to get the sexual attention of a Woman at least a solid point above him on the attraction scale, if not two or more points. Its built on field tested techniques, rooted in evolutionary psychology, among other things.

    Again Anony, I ask: please point me to the system that transforms a Plain Jane into a Tom Brady magnet?

    I’ll calmly wait.

    O

    Like


  131. @ esgie

    If you have many friends, they won´t be necessarily all alpha. Also, I work in a field where networking is everything. Guys can be your friends but sexual inequality can hit them hard.

    Like


  132. @obsidian,
    You prefer to reserve the term “game” for a systematic theory of generating attraction. No problem.

    Thus, what term would you prefer, for the intuitive instinctive verbal responses of a woman who is able to boost her own value to a man. That is, to a man that you would deem more worthy than she? She responds, acts, behaves in a way to hugely enhance her options with men, avoids emotional pain, and gets the commitment she desires? And it has nothing to do with sex skills?

    Like


  133. on August 7, 2009 at 7:45 pm esgie de la qroue

    @ gig

    I understand what you mean. I have experienced it myself.

    But holding on to friends (if by friend you mean someone who you have close relations with) who get upset and try to bring you down when you’re successful and they’re not is not a good thing. Even if you keep your conquests secret they can sense what’s going on. Sooner or later they’ll start talking behind your back, especially to girls (that they themselves can’t get), about what a player-douchebag-asshole you are.

    You don’t have to tell them to fuck off or that you don’t want to be their friend anymore, just create some space, and gain some independence, and your life will become better and less complicated, since you don’t have to conform to the rules of a beta-collective.

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  134. “Thus, what term would you prefer, for the intuitive instinctive verbal responses of a woman who is able to boost her own value to a man. That is, to a man that you would deem more worthy than she? She responds, acts, behaves in a way to hugely enhance her options with men, avoids emotional pain, and gets the commitment she desires? And it has nothing to do with sex skills?” This will never work with an Alpha if said girl doesn’t have good looks. Thus female game does not exist.

    Like


  135. Meaning if the guy is a genuine real deal alpha male that shit will never work. Ever.

    Like


  136. As for the 5-gal and “Girl Game”, my point is that there is no systematic, field-tested core body of knowledge among Women designed to assist them in getting longterm commitment from the best Males around.

    Well there is “The Rules”, which purports to be a manual for getting guys to commit, roundly condemned by men everywhere. Which Predates “Game”, with a capital G.

    I daresay that most women can rather easily go from a 5/6 to a 6/7, or more, with the right hair, make-up, and clothing. Part of girl “Game”, which has been around for as long as human history.

    But I think we all know plenty of women who punch way above their weight class, if one went solely on looks. Whatever it is, raw sex appeal, enaging personality, or feminine wiles, they have men eating out their hand, willing to do whatever they ask, while not having to put out, or even give a hint that they would be willing be willing to put out. Girl game at its best.

    Like


  137. Anony,
    As Funky K has noted, a Woman’s “power” in the sexual dating/mating market is her attractiveness. The more of it she has, the more power she has, the reverse being true if she’s not as attractive or worse. It’s really as simple as that.

    Again: “Girl Game” is really “Inherent Beauty Game” if such a thing exists at all. I can name you guys who aren rich, great looking or have any status still able to consistently pull very nice looking Women. Plain Jane 5s simply cannot get the Orlando Blooms of the world. Simply doesn’t work that way.

    O

    Like


  138. @anonymous ,

    Girl game at its best.

    My sentiments as well.

    Like


  139. “Whatever it is, raw sex appeal, enaging personality, or feminine wiles, they have men eating out their hand, willing to do whatever they ask, while not having to put out, or even give a hint that they would be willing be willing to put out.”

    Again, will never work with alpha males. Ever.

    Like


  140. There is such thing as Female Game. Of course, it’s a different creature than Male Game. There are two kinds of Female Game: (1) Appearance Game and (2) Commitment Game.

    Appearance Game:
    When a girl looks sexy, she’s not “being herself.” Effort went into her lip gloss, makeup, hairstyle, highlights, jewelry, and other crap we don’t understand.

    The clothes component of female Appearance game: looking sexy does not mean going out in a bikini. It involves a magic concoction of style, fashion, teasing, revealing, and hiding. Appearance-oriented Female Game turns a raw body and face — a vaguely boring-looking girl she sees in the mirror when she wakes up — into an object of mystery and desire.

    Commitment Game:
    Any girl can get laid. The difficult thing is to secure commitment form a quality male. To this end, girls also can’t just “be themselves.” Their banal, airheaded, venal, superficial, childish female selves. Alphas come across them in bunches.

    Commitment Game is tricks and strategy that makes a man feel like she “gets him,” that she is just the right mix of whore, confidant, arm-candy and mother.

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  141. Agreed no “Girl Game” but there is something that sometimes, often with women unaware of it, has certain women radiate sexiness. I knew a sweet, married woman, about a 7, who just radiated sexiness to every guy she met, and had no clue. She was very open and “nice” and had an air of innocence. So naturally every guy who spent five minutes with her wanted to bang her like crazy.

    I don’t think it can be “gamed” in the manner of a deliberate personality affect. More like either a severe case of the innocence or sluttiness, that makes guys overstimulated. I’ve seen it first hand, experienced it, left sort of washed up on the beach. There’s nothing like it. Ever. But yeah it exists.

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  142. Again, will never work with alpha males. Ever.

    Of course it can, and has. Think of Napolean, Emperor of Europe, falling head over heels for Josephine, universally described as a plain jane, and definitely no raging beauty. He could have had any woman that he wanted, but he wanted her. She had him eating out of the palm of her hand. She had many affairs, and reduced Napoleon to a laughing-stock when letters that he had sent to her crying over her affairs and begging her to stop were intercepted by his enemies, and published.

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  143. Anonymous

    Whatever it is, raw sex appeal, enaging personality, or feminine wiles, they have men eating out their hand, willing to do whatever they ask, while not having to put out, or even give a hint that they would be willing be willing to put out

    Funky K.

    Again, will never work with alpha males. Ever.

    Julius Caesar. Marc Antony.

    Anyone who thinks there’s no such thing as female game or that alphas can’t fall for it should read Art of Seduction.

    Like


  144. Also, recent historical evidence also shows Cleopatra was likely a plain jane too.

    Like


  145. Joe,
    Yes, The Art of Seduction is an important read and as Greene points out in the book, seduction itself started out as a “female thing”-but the point I’ve been making both to Anony and LSB is that Game is systematic and based on empirical study; “Girl Game” is not. And please note, that Cleopatra was and is a rarity among Women, precisely because she was able to apply principles in a systematic way. Most Women cannot, most simply don’t have to.

    O

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  146. @obsidian,
    It’s understandable why you prefer to not acknowledge female use of psychological principles to her advantage. No problem.

    Like


  147. We’re talking in modern context here. Alpha males do not operate with scarcity mentality thus if a women tries to pull any of this shit on him he will either reframe or move on. Simple as that.

    Like


  148. There’s girl game too. PA describes it perfectly. You can find it in Cosmo and the Rules too. Only reason it isn’t as formalized and written out is because unlike fathers with their sons, the average woman equips the average daughter with the rules from birth so that it becomes instinctual in the majority of them. A minority of men are naturals. But a majority of women are. That’s why 20% of men, naturals, fuck 80% of the women.

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  149. @ esgie

    friends that try to put you down are not friends.

    but any friendship with someone in the same market will suffer hardships if one of the friends starts making much more money than the other

    if the inequality is about girls, instead of money, the effects are 100 times worse. Perfect nice guys, cool people you could trust to help you hide a body, may become hostile when the sex lives are compared. Betaness hurts the most besides alphaness

    I actually have only one friend that certainly fits the bill. But considering how natural his feelings are, I´d rather play beta than risk losing his froiendship and creating any other hidden enmity.

    Like


  150. but the point I’ve been making both to Anony and LSB is that Game is systematic and based on empirical study; “Girl Game” is not.

    How so? Pretty much anything can be broken down into its component parts, studied, and explained. It is just whether anyone has the interest in doing so. Just as male game existed before “Game”, female game exists too, without there being a female equivalent to a PUA.

    Women are systematically taught how to improve their looks and behavior to capture the guy that they want. Some women are better at than others, of course. Some women punch way above theri weight class, while others punch way below. Most stay at around their level, just like for men. Some of the advice is just as outmoded now as provider game is for some guys, but such information is passed down. But there is definitely more to female game than just pure looks, though of course that is part of it too (as it is for males too, to a different extent).

    Like


  151. Did you read The Game? Mystery got whipped. So did Style when Lisa ran girl game on him and got in his head. So even in a modern context the creators of this shit can even get whipped by feminine wiles. It happens less to alphas, but it still happens. Alphas are superior but they ain’t infallible.

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  152. Here is a girl who does not do Female Game: slouches around the house in a frumpy bath towel, talks bullshit gossip while munching loudly on a chicken thigh and her voice is husky and monotonous.

    THIS is a girl “being herself.” Not even a 10 could get away with this kind of bearing around most men. But that’s exactly how they walk & talk around their girlfriends.

    If yo see the image above as the most unsexy thing imaginable, that’s exactly how chicks feel when they see a beta nice guys with no Game.

    Like


  153. Joe,
    Again we keep losing sight of something that’s very important: most Women simply have no problem getting laid. And, no matter how nice you act, if you’re not hot as a Woman to begin with, you can forget landing Prince Ranier.

    True, the Seven Sisters and The Rules have been around, but again, they do not and cannot compare to Game as we currently know it. The latter is a highly empirically based system of knowledge w/virtually universal application.

    Again: why hasn’t there been a female Kama Sutra? Why don’t we routinely see Plain Jane 5s landing Orlando Blooms and Tom Bradys? Why is it that the vast majority of Women suck at sucking dick?

    These and other questions are easily answered when we understand the inherent differences btw Men and Women. Think about it-its in a Man’s best interest to be good in the sack, because if he ain’t, his Woman can simply get dick elsehwere. On the other hand, a Woman don’t necessarily have to be skilled, since most guys are happy enough to be able to stick their dick into something warm and wet, all the moreso if girlfriend is pretty hot to begin with. I’ve spoken about this before, but the more homely the chick the better she needs to be in bed if she wants to keep a guy for any length of time.

    Anyway, “Girl Game” is largely a misnomer. No comparison to Game.

    I still wait for Anony to present actual evidence to the contrary. Should be pretty easy to do, right?

    O

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  154. PA/DA: Why would you think I’m sexy?

    Most non-headscarved Arabesses are very sexy. I know, I lived in one of your lands.

    But if DA thinks you’re hot, that’s not a good thing.

    Like


  155. Joe,
    As I recall, neither Mystery nor Style were “victims” of Women deliberately running “Girl Game”. If they indeed were “victims” it was the result of inadvertent “Girl Game”, which again, doesn’t compare to Game, which is deliberate and organized. And repeatedly proven to get results in realtime out in the field. Accross the globe.

    Still waiting for Anony to provide evidence.

    O

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  156. DA:

    as really the only things that are wrong with your persona:

    Not to say that these are hugely difficult things to drop.

    PA:

    Most non-headscarved Arabesses are very sexy. I know, I lived in one of your lands.

    PA’s Secret Revealed: He can get past the C and above cups.

    But if DA thinks you’re hot, that’s not a good thing.

    😦

    Like


  157. True, the Seven Sisters and The Rules have been around, but again, they do not and cannot compare to Game as we currently know it. The latter is a highly empirically based system of knowledge w/virtually universal application.

    Again: why hasn’t there been a female Kama Sutra? Why don’t we routinely see Plain Jane 5s landing Orlando Blooms and Tom Bradys? Why is it that the vast majority of Women suck at sucking dick?

    Female Game and male Game have two different focuses. A man will try to bed as many good-looking females as he can, while not investing resources into any of them, while an optimal mating strategy for a woman is to get as many men to invest their resources with her, while not putting out for any of them, or alternately finding the guy with the most resources and getting him to invest those resources exclusively with her.

    The Rules has a very good and systematic way of describing for a women how to do this. It has pretty much universal application, and despite predating Game by several years, the advice sounds eerily similiar, merely tailored to suit women’s goals.

    Now you and I may come from different neighborhoods, but I have yet to see a guy without some resource, whether it be money, looks, sexual charisma, talent, fame, whatever, be able to routinely pull good-looking women on a consistent basis. I don’t know many (any) guy-equivalent sub-5’s paired with girl 10’s. Nor have I seen a woman without any of the aforementioned be able to pull a guy 10. I think you vastly over-exaggerate the importance of Game, which for most people helps at the margins, valuable for a point or two for most men at the utmost, similiar to a push-up bra and makeup for women.

    But yes, I have seen relatively plain women with some very good looking guys. I think we all have. I have seen other relatively plain women with some very wealthy men. Have you looked at Bill Gates’s wife lately? I would say most CEOs of big companies are punching below their weight in terms of just sheer looks of what they would get on the open market, because they value other qualities in a wife, which is where girl game come into play.

    So yes, guys are more focused on looks than women are. However, they also like other things too, which can bump a woman up or down a few points along the scale. But much in the same way that a girls natural inclinations can be manipulated and exploited, so too can a guy’s. Whether it is improving her looks, status, wealth, demeanor, her seeming class, education, all those things are subject to manipulation, and thus Game.

    Like


  158. Feminine wiles don’t work on alpha males? Nonsense. PA is far closer to the truth than Obsidian and whoever else was trying to foist this on readers here.

    In fact, wiles are esp. necessary for a woman who wants to land an alpha male. Alphas can get all the pretty girls they want, more or less, and nearly all the sex they want. Isn’t that the definition of an alpha male, or the one used here at any rate? Well, since most alphas do marry eventually, how does a woman (a pretty one, it goes without saying) capture such a man and persuade him to commit himself to her? With “wiles.” Since a woman’s attractiveness is a given at this rarefied level of sexual-emotional exchange, it’s very possible that the successful beauty’s wiles will involve qualities other than beauty or sexual willingness.

    Female wiles, on the other hand, are lost on beta males. Beta men’s great problem tends to be over-eagerness to please. Why would any woman need strategy to capture a man of this kind? It might occasionally be necessary if the man is the kind of beta who is so wrapped up in his work and his computer games that he seldom raises his eyes from a screen, but for the most part it isn’t.

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  159. “t’s very possible that the successful beauty’s wiles will involve qualities other than beauty or sexual willingness. ”

    No they will not. You’re wrong.

    Like


  160. Read up on scarcity mentality. Any man that operates with it is not a real alpha and never will be.

    Like


  161. I’ll admit that I derive a bit of fun from watching the regular blog poster’s rip the feminists’ logical fallacies, but exactly what is the point?

    Detecting alpha genes is a woman’s replication and survival strategy. If any beta male can learn game, then women can’t discern which men have the alpha genes and which don’t. From the point of view of a woman’s genes, the consequences of mating with a beta male are severe: death and extinction.

    Thus, women shriek that game manipulates them because it does (although the women rarely seem to know the real reason why): game manipulates them into mating with a man who has beta genes but has learned to act as if he has alpha genes. Game is the ultimate threat to a woman’s genes. Women cannot respond logically to a logical discussion about game because their genes are screaming at them through their emotions that game is evil.

    So, what is the point of arguing about game with women, other than the pure joy of it?

    Like


  162. Commitment Game is tricks and strategy that makes a man feel like she “gets him,” that she is just the right mix of whore, confidant, arm-candy and mother.

    It’s actually very confusing when men — alpha or beta — voice attraction to this when all they want is sex. Think it’s more moral to have sex with a woman than pull her into the whole LTR frame if all you want to do is have sex with her* rather than commit, especially when you’re not attracted to her personality and solely the looks.

    Do one-itis betas look at personality as well? I suppose it varies. It often seems like there’s not a realistic handle of what she’s actually like.

    * (I can’t say whether it’s effective to pull her into the LTR frame: sounds beta but what do I know, might have to do some of this if you’re targeting prudes, shame on you)

    Like


  163. Read up on scarcity mentality. Any man that operates with it is not a real alpha and never will be.

    Begging the question quite a bit, doesn’t it?

    Like


  164. game manipulates them into mating with a man who has beta genes but has learned to act as if he has alpha genes

    To a lot of women (e.g. prevalence of friends to lovers plot in romantica), this can be a Fantasy Come True and may seem like the recipe for The Ideal Man.

    Hit the gym, make yourself more masculine and confident, get more experience with women, yay! More attractive men for women, who cannot reject their old largely niceguy values horribly but have a better realistic view of what these are.

    Increased betaness, dominating women and increased obesity are all harmful to the total overall attractiveness of the species.

    Like


  165. on August 7, 2009 at 11:01 pm Comment_Whatever

    esgie de la qroue admired himself:

    “If only women would have given him a chance, if only the society would have looked different, if only this, if only that…”

    Face it: no one was responsible for this guy’s desperation, loneliness, rejection, misery and, most of all, his despicable actions, but himself.

    He was indeed a victim, but only of his own weakness and victim-mentality. He created a world for himself in which no one wanted him and where he had been “rejected by 30 million women”. 30 million women. That’s one rejection every day for 82 191,7 years.

    And of course, since NO ONE was responsible for George’s failure than himself, it is also quite clear that NO ONE was responsible for esgie’s success but his own god-like wonderfulness.

    Esgie strikes me as a lot like George Bush II. Too stupid to get anywhere without family connections, and to stupid to even know it.

    You know what happens when you let people like Esgie and Georgy run a country? Bad things.

    Like


  166. Whiskey:

    Agreed no “Girl Game” but there is something that sometimes, often with women unaware of it, has certain women radiate sexiness. I knew a sweet, married woman, about a 7, who just radiated sexiness to every guy she met, and had no clue. She was very open and “nice” and had an air of innocence. So naturally every guy who spent five minutes with her wanted to bang her like crazy.

    Reminds me of the one love of my life. Totally innocent, child-like, probably would have been considered a “bimbo” by the annonys of the world, but loved life and people, was compassionate and kind…and utterly *radiated* sensuality out of her pores, as well as being a total freak in bed. A dark haired Marilyn Monroe.

    Sigh.

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  167. She was what Freud would have called “polymorphous perverse.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymorphous_perversity

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  168. Clio:

    Well, since most alphas do marry eventually, how does a woman (a pretty one, it goes without saying) capture such a man and persuade him to commit himself to her?

    You’re infernal devilry will not move me, woman.

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  169. Wilbur:

    So, what is the point of arguing about game with women, other than the pure joy of it?

    “It’s kind of fun to do the impossible.” — Walt Disney

    Like


  170. “Off topic question , is the army a good place for an beta/o—a to break out of his shell and be better with women?” – Anonymous.

    ” I’m not a military guy, but I would guess yes.” – Roissy.

    Have you two seen a general snapshot of the men who inhabit the army? You be surprised of all the allsorts of guys (and gals) who are there. In other words, Betas (and maybe even the odd O—a) are in the army and it doesn’t do shit for them. They’ll come out the same way they went in. The notion the army is there to ‘make men out of boys’ is false rather it is there to be ready to move and fight where needed. Lesser Betas/O—-as probably find themselves behind the front line doing mindless boring such as handling supplies whilst decent Betas/Alphas get to go the front line (where innate aggressiveness is required) and even the speical forces. It would seem from looking at visiting Asian army soldiers that they train their men to a higher standard than Western armies do but then again losers aren’t probably accepted or get weeded out in training or don’t get to go overseas or, if they do, aren’t allowed to go into the general public thereby making the Asian soldiers all seem tough and manly.

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  171. Lucifer

    Tarl,

    You are either a woman or a whipped man. You don’t get it..

    Humans are unlike other animals in that they can intentionally take down many others with them. Technology has certainly made that easier, and is precisely the reason why the alpha, beta, omega idea do not work for long in technological societies.

    Think of the kamikaze pilots in ww2. They knew what they were doing, they knew that their actions would not benefit them in any measurable way, but they did it anyway. This is about attrition, not victory. The person knew he was never going to win, but he did it out of spite.

    You do not have leverage over a guy who willing to die for his beliefs. Your only hope against such an adversary is that you get him before he gets you, but in this case there were no real warning signs.

    There is such a thing as honorable suicide – but that’s not what Sodini did.

    There is even such a thing as honorable homicide / suicide – but that’s not what Sodini did.

    Sodini was a contemptible, subhuman douchebag, and so are you for providing so many abject apologies for his cowardly acts.

    Like


  172. Two of my friends were in the Canadian Armed Forces*, and are both massive betas.

    To be successful with women, one does not need to be able to take orders and shoot a gun. One needs first to know the pitfalls of dealing with women.

    * You yanks will assume that the CAF is weak, but it is in fact one of the best armies in the world. Yours is just MUCH larger.

    Like


  173. ””””’The_King
    @Gunslingergregi

    So you’re a pussy since you chickened out of killing yourself. You sound like a total loser, I bet if you did no one would care. I personally wouldn’t want to risk jail time to end someone like you. Not worth it. ””””””””

    Yea your right I was a pussy in that respect. I oculdn’t end my own life. I have gone into many situations where I could have died but found that it is not easy to get killed when you want to. That is why need to change laws so that people can be killed who need help.

    Like


  174. ”””””””on August 7, 2009 at 7:01 pm stan
    betaness is contagious? holy shit ; (”””””””’

    OMG somebody give this guy 1000 cc’s of adrenaline.

    Like


  175. ”””””””So, what is the point of arguing about game with women, other than the pure joy of it?””””””

    There minds are changeable after they get the screaming out.

    Like


  176. Gunslinger,

    Don’t you now think it’s a good thing no one helped you die back then, or are you still suicidal?

    Like


  177. Naa I’d rather of not lived back then. I have come to terms that I cannot kill myself.

    Like


  178. Imagine all you value in life to be smashed to bits in front of your eyes in a short time. Patriatism, Manhood, Love, Commitment, Imagining police would do the right thing, Imagining there is a common decency in people, Seeing someone turn into someone else, Seeing someones life irrevokably altered based on a whim. Yea now I am ok I suppose but still would rather of not had to live with the bs. Yes I have done things in my life that I have been proud of since then. Yes I have basically figured out how to not allow that type of thing to happen to me. I just wonder what other crap is on the table for the future.

    Like


  179. Obsidian,
    The Satanic Witch by Anton LaVey is the closest thing to a book about Girl Game. LaVey was a huckster, liar, fraud, nutcase and all round interesting character. In the 60’s he lectured women on how to control men by using the classic techniques of the Fem Fatal.

    The book combined the use of cold reading, psychological typing and sexual fetishism. The goal was to teach women to maximize their sexual power over men for purposes of control. Getting laid was merely a pleasant side effect. The book is very specific on identifying personality types and fetishes and gave detailed instruction on how a woman should adjust her looks, voice, name and other attributes to attract and control that type of guy.

    LaVey claimed that the book was a practical application of classic techniques used by strippers, carnies and Fem Fatals. Its an entertaining read, as to its applicability, well would a self-proclaimed Satanist lie?

    Like


  180. Bye the way, a couple of the female posters have used techniques mentioned in the book.

    Like


  181. Absinthe,
    It is interesting indeed that it took a guy to collate such a body of knowledge. Very, very interesting, indeed.

    Simply put y’all, most Women aren’t motivated to learn “Girl Game” BECAUSE THEY DON’T HAVE TO. Simply being halfway decent looking and willing to put out is more than enough.

    Again, can anyone name the female version of the Kama Sutra? I didn’t think so.

    O

    Like


  182. Why would you think I’m sexy?

    I was not asked but I can´t escape answering.

    Once people asked Jean marie Le Pen what did he think about the muslim veil. He answered that he liked it, because “it hid ugly women”

    And he is right. Outside Lebanon and Syria, there are no beautiful girls in Arab world. Beirut and Tel Avib are the border posts of the Abode of Female Beauty. Outside them lies the Abode of Ugliness, encompassing 60 % of human race

    Like


  183. most Women aren’t motivated to learn “Girl Game” BECAUSE THEY DON’T HAVE TO. Simply being halfway decent looking and willing to put out is more than enough.

    Nonsense. A girl being decent looking and willing to put out gets a girl pumped & dumped by mediocre men. Female game is needed to attract higher caliber men and secure their commitment.

    Again, can anyone name the female version of the Kama Sutra?

    Female version of Kama Sutra appears every month in every new issue of Cosmo. It teaches girls how to transform themselves from dime-a-dozed females into objects of mystery and desire.

    Like


  184. Outside Lebanon and Syria, there are no beautiful girls in Arab world.

    Lebanese Christian girls are HOT. Egyptian girls, especially in Coptic or more secularized Zamalek district Muslim families (ie, no ugly headscarves) are often very good looking too, with small boobies to my recollection.

    Iraqis often look downright white. I know a secularized Iraqi woman who married an Euro guy. She is supermodel quality.

    Like


  185. Female game also involves knowing how to walk the line betwseen personal safety and thrill, and walking the line between looking prudish and slutty.

    Like


  186. Co ty z tymi malymi cyckami PA? Odbilo ci? Zartuje, pozdrowienia!

    Like


  187. “Female game is needed to attract higher caliber men and secure their commitment.”

    Which is not really game, it’s just being well adjusted, feminine, charming, compassionate etc. The girl either has it or she doesn’t, if she doesnt and is just faking it the shit will come out sooner or later. An alpha male can see right through it and dump her ass. And since he’s not operating with scarcity mentality he has a circle of women to choose from, he picks the one with the best qualities. She can use her “wiles” all she wants, will not work. Now successful beta’s and higher betas, that’s a different story. They fall for this shit.

    Like


  188. Małe piersi są jak klejnoty, duże to jak wymiona u krowy. 3majsie!

    Like


  189. the levels of female beauty in the Arab world excluding Syria and Lebanon are like those in Mexico

    you can always give an anedocte about how you found a supermodel somewhere, but they all fail the subway test

    take the subway in any country to see how the regular people, the average folks are.

    and the harsh reality is that more hot women tracvel in the subways of Rio or Moscow in any given day that are born in the entire Arab world (exc. Lebanon and Syria) in any decade

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  190. He went to an R. Don Steele seminar and sat in the audience with a bunch of other losers in love

    what can be more depressing than a game seminar?

    what do those guys discuss during lunch? World of Warcraft? how to create your own noose?

    Like


  191. A lot of snake oil in the community now. You don’t need to spend a cent to learn game, plenty of free resources to learn from. Best one being fastseduction.com, read the archives, hit the forum with your questions. Observe, learn, tailor game to your needs go out and change your life. It’s not difficult, unless you have a personality disorder like that freak that shot up the gym. Then there is no help for you.

    Like


  192. Cosmo instructs on the lifepath to becoming 40 yo single parent. It advocates promiscuity and dishonesty.

    Female game is based on psychological principles of lowering a man’s self-perceived value and raising her own.

    [editor: no, that won’t work. female game is based on the biological principle of inheriting genes for good looks. but thank you for playing.]

    Like


  193. “Female game is based on psychological principles of lowering a man’s self-perceived value and raising her own.”

    Absolute nonsense.

    Like


  194. I think PA is right on the money with his descriptions of female game. Being hot is not enough. That just gets your foot in the door. A lot of hot women spend a lifetime getting pumped and dumped as alphas, having bastard kids with deadbeat dads and hitting a wall by the time they hit 30. Yet they got laid a lot. Is that game?

    Like


  195. “as alphas” should read “by alphas”

    Like


  196. Absolute nonsense.

    No it’s not. in PUA-speak it’s called “beta-izing.”

    Like


  197. “No it’s not. in PUA-speak it’s called “beta-izing.””

    Which is not a concious attempt at gaming the alpha. It’s a mating strategy as old as humanity itself and completely subconcious behaviour. Again no such thing as the female equivalent of game. We can continue this bickering ’till the cows come home. Won’t change a thing.

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  198. For reasons I ought not explain, I have seen quite a few female members of the Saudi Royal family in an uncovered state. Anyone who has had this experience will ask themselves, “How did this happen? This is what alphas choose?”
    Then it occurs to one that the alphas over there just warehouse as many females as they can on general principles.
    The best inside peak into Arab male preferrence comes from looking at the girls chosen to work in high end brothels in the Middle East. From what I have heard, it is what you would expect.

    Like


  199. You’re not “unreconstructed evil,” you’re just stupid.

    Like


  200. Which is not a concious attempt at gaming the alpha.

    Whether or not it’s conscious, it’s still game.

    It’s a mating strategy as old as humanity itself and completely subconcious behaviour.

    So is “natural game.” Naturals don’t do what they do consciously and their tactics are evolutionary strategies as old as the human race, do you deny that naturals have “game?” Naturals are the ones PUAs study in the first place!

    What pickup artists do is take game that “naturals” do unconsciously and reverse engineer it. Then they break it down into easy to digest steps for people who aren’t naturals to learn, complete with its own lingo. What systems like The Rules do is take the strategies of female “naturals” which is female game and break them down into easy to digest steps too.

    Like


  201. on August 8, 2009 at 11:28 pm Lawyer from Hell

    on August 7, 2009 at 2:58 pm Tarl:

    “I disagree completely. It has never been true that every guy gets laid. There are always guys who get shut out for one reason or another. Society has no obligation to them whatsoever.”

    Civilization depends on the commitment of ALL members of society. That is the whole point of mongamy and marriage. All the other blather about marriage is pure nonsense. Marriage is the foundantion of civilization mfor that reason.

    Every man and every woman pairs up and has an opportunity to continue a genetic legacy.

    Without that, the majority of males are not committed to society and society collapses.

    We are witnessing that unfold now. Men that aren’t getting laid are going to opt out of civilization and do the bare minimum to get by.

    Like


  202. Once people asked Jean marie Le Pen what did he think about the muslim veil. He answered that he liked it, because “it hid ugly women”

    Looks like Mr. Le Pen must’ve done a lot of Unveiling anyway.

    For reasons I ought not explain, I have seen quite a few female members of the Saudi Royal family in an uncovered state

    Worsened by obesity/neglecting hair removal?

    Like


  203. PA,

    Here’s a bit of exchange btw us:

    O: most Women aren’t motivated to learn “Girl Game” BECAUSE THEY DON’T HAVE TO. Simply being halfway decent looking and willing to put out is more than enough.

    PA: Nonsense. A girl being decent looking and willing to put out gets a girl pumped & dumped by mediocre men. Female game is needed to attract higher caliber men and secure their commitment.

    O: No argument there, but again, there’s no comparison btw Cosmo and the Mystery Method. Agree or disagree?

    O: Again, can anyone name the female version of the Kama Sutra?

    PA: Female version of Kama Sutra appears every month in every new issue of Cosmo. It teaches girls how to transform themselves from dime-a-dozed females into objects of mystery and desire.

    O: Cosmo cannot compare in any way to the KS. No one who is familiar w/both would make such a case.

    The Obsidian

    [editor: O, both you and PA are right. you’re right in that because so much of a woman’s sexual desireability is wrapped up in her looks, she does not need to learn to nearly the same extent men need to learn, any sort of “game” as a consciously aware system for attracting the opposite sex. PA is right inasmuch as a woman’s sluttiness or lack thereof will have real consequences for her ability to keep the man she watns around for longer than a short fling. also, there is the matter of femininity. a hot babe, if she acts like a man, can get laid, but she would find it harder than an equivalently hot feminine babe to get the men she wants the most to commit to her.]

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  204. on August 9, 2009 at 10:28 am Marcus Aureliette

    O:

    PA gave you an answer, as you requested. You’re rejecting it because you don’t like it, now? That’s not like you.

    He’s absolutely right: being decent-looking (by which I mean not actively unattractive) and willing is not enough. That’s just a recipe for years of lousy treatment, at worst, or wasting a few years investing in a relationship that fails anyway, at best. A woman has to figure out early what she’s after and comport herself accordingly. Something else is required; call it female game, or feminine wiles or whatever. But decent looks, a respectably low partner number and a good attitude is not enough — something else is required, and I say that as a woman who is profoundly lacking in whatever that is.

    [editor: whatever that “something else” is, it isn’t nearly as important a variable as a woman’s looks.]

    Also, you seem to be proceeding from the assumption that women’s primary goal is the same as most men’s: to get laid. Why do you assume that? If you want to set it out as an equation, then women in general (but not as generally as you think) can probably accomplish getting laid easier, simply because there are so many men with that goal. But that equation doesn’t reflect what’s actually going on in real life.

    Are most women looking to get laid? I don’t think most of them are, nor are most of them capable of no-strings sex for very long, if at all. Just getting laid is not our goal, overall, so holding it up as some kind of unappreciated gift is…pointless, really. You complain because we can get laid if we want to, but you also complain if we actually take advantage of that, and then you complain if we don’t take advantage of it.

    What is it that you want women to do?

    I don’t happen to experience that which you guys seem to assume is the lot of all women: I don’t get propositioned, ever…possibly because I’m clearly not open to any offer of sex with a stranger, under any circumstances whatsoever, and I deliberately drab myself down much of the time to avoid the whole issue. I am Off The Market and make it a point to have it show (which is why I don’t believe most women who complain about how awful it is to get hit on all the time. Frump it up and they’ll stop.) It wouldn’t matter even if I were bombarded all the time, it wouldn’t matter if the guy were alpha or omega: that’s simply not how I operate.

    I can tell you, for all the lamenting of women’s morals seen on this board, women with morals are the absolute last thing guys want to deal with until they’re ready to settle down.

    Like


  205. Hi,
    I’m a “femtard” and occasional reader, just thought I’d drop my two cents in.

    No, of course the seminar he went to was not responsible for him becoming a murderer. You can’t personally blame R. Don Steele for Sodini’s crime.

    Maybe Sodini wouldn’t have gone nuts if he had gotten laid. To some extent that was my reaction, reading his diary; what if he had learned whatever social skills he was missing? Lives would have been saved.

    On the other hand, and what I think is the key point, this was a crime against women. Bob Herbert was right http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/08/opinion/08herbert.html?_r=1:
    Sodini’s victims were killed for no other reason but that they were female, just as countless victims of rape and battery and murder are targeted because they were female.

    Sodini had gotten the twisted idea in his head that women in general owed him sex, or else. Now we know, if it were possible to doubt it before, that it’s an idea that leads to violence. And the PUA message (which is something that people in my nice, hypereducated circles never hear about but they probably should be aware of) isn’t helping, because it perpetuates that assumption. When men think the world owes them sex, that women owe them sex, they react violently when they’re denied. I think Sodini turned to that PUA seminar because he already thought this way — it didn’t put the idea in his head — but it should make people like Roissy question whether he wants to reinforce the message that a man deserves sex and that women are to be blamed if they’re not attractive or not available.

    [editor: read the post before this one.]

    Like


  206. No argument there, but again, there’s no comparison btw Cosmo and the Mystery Method. Agree or disagree?

    Disagree. There is comparison between the two in the sense that both are strategies for increasing a man’s or a woman’s success on the mating market. They are two sides of the same coin.

    Mystery Method is male Game whose design is getting guys laid by better looking women than he’d snag without Game. Without Mystery Method, a guy is just another sausage in a bar.

    Cosmo is female Game whose design is attracting and securing the commitment of higher caliber men than she’d otherwise snag. Without Cosmo, a girl is just anotehr pretty face in a bar.

    Like


  207. like Mr. Le Pen must’ve done a lot of Unveiling anyway

    if he did so, my respect for him gets even higher. a man with the option to bang only the hotties who yet choses sometimes to bang the orcs is a true macho

    he is man whose mere existance increases female happiness.

    one more thing should be said about Arabs. They, AFAIK, created the idea that women should have hair on their heads only. The world owes them that.

    Like


  208. Goes without saying that guys with natural Game don’t rely on Mystery Method, and female 9s/10s don’t need to put as much effort into looking good and being “mysterious.”

    But we’re talking about MM or Cosmo as a tool for more average people, not for the sexually gifted elite.

    Like


  209. Alias Clio,

    Picking up on where we left off:

    AC: Feminine wiles don’t work on alpha males? Nonsense. PA is far closer to the truth than Obsidian and whoever else was trying to foist this on readers here.

    O: hang on. I never said that “wiles” don’t work on Alphas. What I said was there is no real female equivalent to Game. Now you may disagree and that’s fine, but I maintain that there’s no female equal to the Mystery Method, The Game, Pimp, The Art of Seduction, or the Kama Sutra, just for starters. By and large Women aren’t as “systems driven” as are Men, and as Roissy has pointed out, the reason is simple-the number one weapon, if you will, that Women have is their inherent beauty. Second, most Men don’t get laid, and will be most eager to get pretty much whatever they can get. So again, most Women don’t have to concern themselves w/things along these lines.

    AC: In fact, wiles are esp. necessary for a woman who wants to land an alpha male. Alphas can get all the pretty girls they want, more or less, and nearly all the sex they want. Isn’t that the definition of an alpha male, or the one used here at any rate? Well, since most alphas do marry eventually, how does a woman (a pretty one, it goes without saying) capture such a man and persuade him to commit himself to her? With “wiles.” Since a woman’s attractiveness is a given at this rarefied level of sexual-emotional exchange, it’s very possible that the successful beauty’s wiles will involve qualities other than beauty or sexual willingness.

    O: The point here is that Women need to be hot to begin with in order to attract said topshelf Alphas. Being a Plain Jane 5 w/a heart of gold aint gonna get it, otherwise we’d see far more of em w/the Tom Bradys and Orlando Blooms of the world, and we…don’t. Care to explain this?

    AC: Female wiles, on the other hand, are lost on beta males. Beta men’s great problem tends to be over-eagerness to please. Why would any woman need strategy to capture a man of this kind? It might occasionally be necessary if the man is the kind of beta who is so wrapped up in his work and his computer games that he seldom raises his eyes from a screen, but for the most part it isn’t.

    O: The main reason why said strategy isn’t needed is because said Males don’t sexually turn on Females in general, and definitely not the higher end Females.

    The Obsidian

    Like


  210. My attraction seems to be solely for alpha males. When I was 20 I had no difficulty and was able to pick anyone I chose. I chose an alpha for an ltr which lasted several years, I wish I knew then what I know now about men. I admire the 20 somethings here who are self aware, I was not. Now that I’m 30+ alpha’s my own age (and younger) are still attracted to me, but not for long term committed relationships it seems. I don’t believe wiles or personality is what it takes to secure them. I know I’m very feminine and have a fun personality and have been told by many men that I radiate sensuality and this still doesn’t get men who I’m attracted to interested for more than a few weeks of fun. I know its not the bedroom either – lady on the streets, freak in the you know whats is a good description for me – I’m very comfortable with sexuality. These men simply have a wide pool of women to choose from and are not interested in having to settle for one. I’m not interested in sharing them and even though they’d love to keep me in the friends with benefits category I refuse. I have some pride thank god.

    I’ve learned a lot about men here at Roissy’s. Since I’ve visited I learned not to even look at men my own age. I feel now that if they want me it’s because they can’t get anyone younger and that’s not interesting to me. I wouldn’t have felt that prior to reading here.

    I’m building a relationship with a man 13 years my senior and as I look younger than I am we look 20 years apart which is how we both like it. I think by applying what I’ve learned here for my own purpose it is girl game. Any thoughts?

    Like


  211. Hmm…
    not sure I understand your point, roissy.

    MA: I think life can be all right without female game, in my (admittedly short) dating experience. I have zero feminine wiles. Being a nice-looking nerdy girl puts you in a very good position with your fellow nerds — no copy of “The Rules” required.

    Like


  212. PA,
    I’d love to have the actual success rate of Cosmo and put that against the Mystery Method. That’s another big distinction btw “Girl Game” and Game, the actual field testing of methods in realtime. Theory w/o application, is dead.

    Aoefe, I think your post really sums up the debate here-Women who are hot and young, really don’t need to “learn” much. True, its not in their interest to slut it up, but that should go w/o saying, right? And, I note w/particular interest, that only now in your 30s are you even interested in hearing about learning either about Men or for that matter, other Women/yourself.

    And you’re right, guys w/options will choose younger, hotter babes. Period. Not all of them, but most of them wil, most of the time, more often than not. Hence, another reason why there really isn’t any such thing as “Girl Game”.

    The plain truth of it is, that to the extent “Girl Game” exists, it is largely dependent on the inherent beauty said Woman is born into this world with. The more inherently beautiful she is, the better position she’s in to snag the topshelf guys. Once again: please point me to the Plain Jame 5s who regularly snag Tom Bradys and Orlando Blooms? Should be pretty easy to do, if Girl Game is really all that-right?

    Meanwhile, I can point to two Men-neither of whom anyone would accuse of having leading Man looks-whove consistently bedded Hot Babes by just about any measure. They were able to do this as a result of a field tested system of knowledge rooted in scientific and psychological information and insights. Again, there is no feminine equivalent, The Rules simply cannot compare in any meaningful way to The Game or The Mystery Method. Nor is there a female version of the Kama Sutra.

    O

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  213. @ aoefe

    girl game is bounded by physical appearance. boy game, as many here have shown, unbinds the male performance from his physical appearance.

    but yeah,, you are right, it is girl game.

    Like


  214. My advice for the 20 something women here would be not to play the field thinking the playground will be around forever. I’m attractive and have no issues getting men to date me, getting them to commit is quite another matter. The men I can keep are either submissive or beta men who frankly I’m not attracted to. Your ltr potential is significantly higher now. The difficulty is in choosing correctly. I’m a wiser person now then when I was in my 20’s and can choose a better partner which is why I am taking the advice given here and seeking an older man. I’d recommend the same for 20 something’s choose a minimum of five years older. My ltr choice was my age and although he was an alpha he was immature and truthfully he didn’t grow out of it.

    There is a double standard in regards to men and women slutting it up. Be choosy girls. I have always been and for this I’m grateful. I don’t have high numbers and for the men I want to attract this is important. I’ll ‘put out’ for men who seem to want a relationship not the obvious p & d’s. That said I’ve been fooled and although I don’t have one night stands often the relationships only last till about the six week mark. I used to take it very personally and now since coming here I realize it speaks more to the men I’m choosing. I’m choosing men who I’m very attracted to yet are very attractive to a wide circle of women. Who can blame them for wanting more when they can have it so easily?

    I date a lot. I have had as many as six dates in five days. The greatest percentage don’t make it to date two. I can tell right away if I’m attracted. I don’t waste time seeing if it will build. Gaming strategy as taught here works on me. The men I will go out again seem to naturally apply the principals spoken of by Roissy. They may be PUA’s, I can’t tell they’re good.

    I’m not a game player in the sense that I’ll practice wiles. That said since my beauty queen/pageant days I’ve realized how to take good care of my looks and have continued that. I like to look good and honestly love when I get second looks from men. I know some girls complain about the attention, I’ve never begrudged it. I’ve said here before I believe a girl ‘owes’ it to her man to keep herself attractive to him. I do want to say there is a difference between slutting it up look and classy, feminine attractive look. I go for the latter. Men love a girly girl.

    Changing the subject. I think most of the girls who comment here would be of the nerdy variety would we not? I mean really how many chicks who aren’t nerds would spend hours reading this stuff? Just sayin…

    Like


  215. Obsidian, thing is, as Roissy has alluded to earlier (one of the points where our perception intersects) the vast majority of women are born with some natural beauty. They just shouldn’t do things to mess it up. We disagree about what the cause and the cure is for more women that should, getting messed up, but that’s one of those petty issues better discussed between people in the position to do more about it than call people names.

    Besides, girl game isn’t all about attracting men. Most of it is about choosing the right one. When you have a pool of say, five truly interested suitors, you have to be able to pick which one has what you’re really looking for, and not screw it up.

    Even if a woman doesn’t want long term relationships, she’s got to know how to avoid drama, and even get what she wants out of casual encounters.

    Like


  216. Anonymous,

    Replies as follows:

    O: True, the Seven Sisters and The Rules have been around, but again, they do not and cannot compare to Game as we currently know it. The latter is a highly empirically based system of knowledge w/virtually universal application.

    O: Again: why hasn’t there been a female Kama Sutra? Why don’t we routinely see Plain Jane 5s landing Orlando Blooms and Tom Bradys? Why is it that the vast majority of Women suck at sucking dick?

    A: Female Game and male Game have two different focuses. A man will try to bed as many good-looking females as he can, while not investing resources into any of them, while an optimal mating strategy for a woman is to get as many men to invest their resources with her, while not putting out for any of them, or alternately finding the guy with the most resources and getting him to invest those resources exclusively with her.

    O: Tru dat.

    A: The Rules has a very good and systematic way of describing for a women how to do this. It has pretty much universal application, and despite predating Game by several years, the advice sounds eerily similiar, merely tailored to suit women’s goals.

    O: OK. Are there any workshops being conducted by the authors of The Rules, where they take out socially inept Women out into bars, clubs and the like and then demonstrate said methods in realtime?

    A: Now you and I may come from different neighborhoods, but I have yet to see a guy without some resource, whether it be money, looks, sexual charisma, talent, fame, whatever, be able to routinely pull good-looking women on a consistent basis. I don’t know many (any) guy-equivalent sub-5’s paired with girl 10’s. Nor have I seen a woman without any of the aforementioned be able to pull a guy 10. I think you vastly over-exaggerate the importance of Game, which for most people helps at the margins, valuable for a point or two for most men at the utmost, similiar to a push-up bra and makeup for women.

    O: Please read The Game. For all his career success, Style’s love life was virtually nonexistent. He got Game, and EVERYTHING changed. And this is true for thousands, if not millions, of Men worldwide. Please see The Urban Scientist in Psychology Today, he’s written about this.

    The truth is that I seriously doubt The Rules will transform a Plain Jane sub-5 into an HB10 able to pull the Bradys and Blooms of the world. Game operates on principles that are designed to push Women’s attraction buttons, which really aren’t focused first and foremost on the Man’s appearance. Wrt Men however, a heavy emphasis is placed on a Woman’s beauty, of which her age or lack thereof plays another important role. No amount of “Rules” or “Girl Game” will change this, otherwise we’d be bombarded w/topshelf guys consistently selecting for Plain Jane sub-5s and not needing to go anywhere else. I’m still waiting for realworld evidence, sans the Bill Gates stuff, that refutes what I’m saying here.

    A: But yes, I have seen relatively plain women with some very good looking guys. I think we all have. I have seen other relatively plain women with some very wealthy men. Have you looked at Bill Gates’s wife lately? I would say most CEOs of big companies are punching below their weight in terms of just sheer looks of what they would get on the open market, because they value other qualities in a wife, which is where girl game come into play.

    O: Again I don’t think we can really use Bill Gates as a legitmate example, because he never was on the market to begin with. But fine-for every Bill Gates you can name, I can name a Donald Trump. And for the remainder of CEOs you mentioned, I can name a Bill Clinton, a John Edwards, a Elliot Spitzer, etc, et al. Need I say more?

    A: So yes, guys are more focused on looks than women are. However, they also like other things too, which can bump a woman up or down a few points along the scale.

    O: Wrong. I, and just about any guy here if they’re willing to be brutally honest, can name long lists of guys who are more than willong to forego points in the “other catergories” department in order to gain more hotness in a Woman. It’s a known fact that a Hot Babe can get away w/being a bitch far and away moreso than a Homely Chick.

    A: But much in the same way that a girls natural inclinations can be manipulated and exploited, so too can a guy’s. Whether it is improving her looks, status, wealth, demeanor, her seeming class, education, all those things are subject to manipulation, and thus Game.

    O: Most guys, again if they’re being brutally honest, couldn’t care less where a Woman went to school or what kind of degrees she has. Its a “plus” but in no means is it a dealbreaker. Her looks is what is a dealbreaker for the vast majority of Men out there. Period.

    Holla back

    O

    Like


  217. on August 9, 2009 at 12:53 pm Black Military man

    Obsidian, Kama Sutra was written a long time ago by a supposedly celibate sage who was employed by a King, back in the days when royal patronage was the way to go for wise men and poets. It was not written for the masses (mainly poor, illiterate folk). Only since the invention of the printing press has this text been available to more than a select few, and since the internet, to the entire world.

    Consequently, an Indian woman has recently (within the last 30 years) written a women’s version. You have obviously not read that and I doubt many people outside of India have.

    Like


  218. Obsidian says, “O: Most guys, again if they’re being brutally honest, couldn’t care less where a Woman went to school or what kind of degrees she has. Its a “plus” but in no means is it a dealbreaker. Her looks is what is a dealbreaker for the vast majority of Men out there. Period. ”

    For the vast majority, this is true…so in a market wherein both the cads and the dads are looking for the same thing, what is a girl supposed to do when the trends shift and that same thing is a card carrying hoe from the gutter?

    IMO, it’s better then for a woman who doesn’t want to become a thug baby mill, to look out for her own interests.

    At this point in history there are still places where a woman’s looks and sexual availability are not the only value she’s perceived to have. Some guys out there still need their woman to be loyal and not screwing half the town. A great many of those need that even sexually.

    A big part of girl game involves not becoming a six week stand to a guy who wants exclusivity but not a long term commitment.

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  219. @nicole – “A big part of girl game involves not becoming a six week stand to a guy who wants exclusivity but not a long term commitment.”

    Exactly!

    Like


  220. Ladies,
    I don’t necessarily disagree w/anything either of you have said. What I’m saying is that for a Woman, her inherent beauty or the lack thereof sets the tone as to the kinds of guys she can attract, all things being equal. It’s really as simple as that.

    Now, of course, if she has other qualities to add to the mix all the better; but simply put, a Plain Jane or a Homely Helen sub-5 w/the heart of gold ain’t likely to land the topshelf guys of the world. That no one is able to give many such examples, in our time, wrt guys like Brady, a what, four time Superbowl winner, and someone like say, a Tom Cruise, who’s made so much money for the movie busines that his name is a name-brand, just goes to show that what I’m saying is for the most part, true.

    And yet again, there is no real equivalent in female terms, to the Kama Sutra. Trying to say that Cosmo fits the bill is like trying to argue that a Vespa and a Beemer are equivalent.

    O

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  221. The men I can keep are either submissive or beta men who frankly I’m not attracted to.

    Fun Question: Is the flight to alpha males induced by what some have argued is the emasculation of beta males?

    my beauty queen/pageant days

    They must have low standards for that stuff in Canada… 😛

    I do want to say there is a difference between slutting it up look and classy, feminine attractive look. I go for the latter. Men love a girly girl.

    To a certain extent, while the latter is nicer than a tomboyish or androgynous look*, the slutting it up look is certainly more attractive to me the feminine look. It’s a marker of sexuality and sexual intensity on my part. It’s the old inductive theory where her appearance determines her desire for sex, and thus, her desire to attract males.

    *For sampling purposes, compare Athena’s drab sweaters with Uggs to Molly’s bright fashionable tops and high heel boots and sandals.

    I’d recommend the same for 20 something’s choose a minimum of five years older.

    Shudder. The horrors of dating *me* a twenty year old girl.

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  222. @DA – “Shudder. The horrors of dating *me* a twenty year old girl.”

    No kidding you’d shudder – you don’t date. Jeesh. 🙂

    Like


  223. @Obsidian

    I’m in total agreement with the differences between girl and guy game. Men are MUCH more tactical. I’ve read He’s Just Not That Into You, but that’s been the extent of my reading and notice its not built on how to get a man, but just to be aware of when he’s not into you and move on. I watched a Mystery video – white board and all – and was amused and amazed at how much strategy goes into getting chicks. We read articles on MSN.com perhaps, but most of our ‘game’ strategy is talking to other chicks and them reinforcing wrongly the things that will get the dude i.e. He will LOVE your personality!. You guys have actual game tactics we simply have ideas. This isn’t to say we’re stupid we’re just less openly/actively strategic.

    O, you said earlier that Style got tons of women after learning game – I’m curious though – was that before or after he became famous in the movement? Fame of any kind will attract a female.

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  224. No kidding you’d shudder – you don’t date. Jeesh.

    Eh, you’re Canadian, so you’ll do. 🙂

    Remember kids, alphas just fuck, betas date, and sub-human males just sorta hurl silly words at women…

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  225. Obsidian, what is a top shelf man for women is different from what’s a top shelf man to guys. Sodini thought he was a top shelf guy, but women did not agree.

    Most women would want to shag Tom Cruise because he is cute and famous, but we know that marrying him would be a mistake…same with Wesley Snipes, or most male stars and professional athletes

    The top shelf guys don’t marry the most beautiful women. They marry women who are beautiful enough to suit their tastes, but have other qualities that are more important. Even the women they cheat with usually fit that description. See: every U.S. President ever.

    It’s the average and below average quality guys who are so wowed by physical beauty or worse, conformity to media standards that might actually uglify a woman more than enhancing her, that they would marry a more beautiful hoe over a less beautiful wife type. They have no spine, so they blow whichever way the media or individual manipulator goes.

    What may give other guys the impression that their woman’s beauty is her status is the fact that once a woman reaches or marries into a certain level of status, she has more time to devote to maintaining and enhancing her beauty…or conformity, if she’s going to be in the public eye.

    Even at this point, dating a “son of…” I’m expected to continue to lose weight, dress classy and modest, and break out some of the old bling I’ve been hiding. I have to look like an authority figure’s accessory.

    We don’t all look like models and hotties when they find us…the ones with marriage or commitment on their minds anyway. The hot chicks are for when they’re old in need of some entertainment, and even then the truly top shelf are not just looking for any and every.

    Berlusconi is doing girls who are eye candy, but have been filtered and sorted. He won’t be catching the clap from random poon that’s just skinny and friendly at the moment.

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  226. Aoefe,
    To answer your question, please read The Game. Style got his chicks all on the strength of his learning curve; again, if his “fame” as a NYT/Rolling Stone/etc writer was the silver bullet, he’d never need Game to begin with. Nor is Style any catch of a Man lookswise. Its all skill, darlin’. And that’s what so many Women either can’t see or refuse to admit when it comes to “Girl Game”.

    He’s Just Not That Into You is really You’re Just Not That Hot, because when you really boil it down, that’s what it comes down to. The book in NO WAY comes close to either The Game or the Mystery Method, or for that matter Greene’s The Art of Seduction or the Kama Sutra which is some two thousand years old. Moreover, there aren’t any realtime, in-field demos of The Rules where sub-par gals can transform themselves and regularly get marriage proposals from topshelf guys w/serious options. For the umpteenth time, please point out to me any such gal who was able to land a Tom Brady or a Tom Cruise or an Orlando Bloom, etc et al? If you find yourself having trouble coming up w/such an example, you’ve proven my point. Heck, Jay-Z could have gotten with any number of gals w/great personalities, educations, etc et al up in NYC but in the end he chose Beyonce’. The reasons by now should be obvious. Simply put, being a Plain Jane or Homely Helen, regardless of how nice, cultured, educated, wealthy or indeed sexually skilled, WILL NOT land you a tophself, bona fide Alpha Male w/serious options. Hasn’t happened, and won’t happen.
    “Girl Game” is a postmodern, postfeminist, early 21st century capitalist conceit, designed to foster the pretty lie that we all the same. We are not. Men and Women are fundamentally different, have fundamentally different aims and goals, and have fundamentally different tools at their disposal to bring about their aims and reach their goals. Women don’t value looks in a Man as much as Women do, for what should by now be obvious reasons; a highly accomplished Man looking like Henry Kissinger can pull just as many if not more hot babes as Orlando Bloom. On the other hand, Oprah Winfrey will NEVER pull as many eligible Men as Tyra Banks.

    Period.

    Game works because it is a system of knowledge that is tested and proven, over and over in the field, accross a wide spectrum of Women-all races, social classes, yes even ages. In fact, a skilled practitioner of Game can seduce Women to get them to do what they want w/o ever having to sex them, because Women get off on the “almost” dynamic a lot more than Men do. Teasing is essential in making a Woman wet; teasing for a Man is simply being a mean bitch.

    O

    Like


  227. Yea woman can practice things that would make a man want to commite and stay commited for life. Her character, Personality, brain, actions, grace, femininity, are not shared equaly by woman. Looks do of course help with that just like with guys.

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  228. Obsidian, you’re misjudging girl game the same way that women misjudge guy game.

    When you say these things about girl game, you should consider how much of a moron someone would have to plausibly be, to think them.

    If anything, the basic premise is that not all guys are the same. If they were, we would all try to look the same.

    Like


  229. on August 9, 2009 at 3:26 pm Black Military Man

    “Heck, Jay-Z could have gotten with any number of gals w/great personalities, educations, etc et al up in NYC but in the end he chose Beyonce’.”

    Obsidian, you have got to be joking if you think Jay-Z could pull a highly educated Ivy League white woman with network connections amongst the New England High Class Set.

    He’s a black entertainer with a criminal past from the ghetto and he pulled another black entertainer – period.

    Beyonce is not ghetto but she sure as hell ain’t New England upper crust – ever heard her in an interview? She sounds like she’s just two steps away from Laqwonda’s Weave and Beauty Parlor on Flatbush Ave.

    As a man, it is VERY IMPORTANT to me what type of background, education and job a woman has.

    If she is ghetto, no college, and working at a minimum wage – no matter how “hot” she is, she is a HUGE liability to me – financially, socially, professionaly and psychologically.

    I prefer to mate with an equal – in all ways.

    Like


  230. …and by the way, girl game is not just _The Rules_ or _He’s not that into you_. It’s also _The Satanic Witch_.

    Like


  231. Lucifer,

    Are you fucking kidding me? Tell me you don’t seriously think this douche was some kind of masculine role model.

    “He did what others have considered”? Take a minute and listen to ol’ Jack: if you have ever seriously considered “avenging” some perceived social insult by murdering a roomful of strangers and then killing yourself, YOU ARE FUCKING RETARDED. What is there to “consider”? What is the fucking upside here?

    Lashing out in self-pity, no matter how violently, is not manly behavior. Are your actions aimed at achieving some result in the real world, or are you merely expressing your own emotional state in a hyper-dramatic scene? If it’s the latter, check your shorts, you may have turned into a bitch.

    The fact that this guy chose to pitch a giant, suicidal hissy fit, particularly when he could instead have taken a few simple steps to improve his life in a real way makes him a a more pathetic example of ineffectual, feminized douchery than either of the BOTM contestants.

    Also, there is no such thing as society, or the social contract. Is it really news to any adult that life is not fair?

    Stupid.

    Like


  232. Nicole,
    OK, fair enough-question then:

    How many Women actually have read and/or applied, The Satanic Witch? And while we’re on that tip, please note that it was written by a Man.

    O

    Like


  233. MuOn the other hand, Oprah Winfrey will NEVER pull as many eligible Men as Tyra Banks.

    ha
    there are plenty of good looking but broke men who need a few extra dollars and are willing to roll with oprah to put a few in their pockets.

    Like


  234. Obsidian, _TSW_ is a very widely known book in certain circles. It is probably one of the most read books on seduction and game for women.

    Not only was it written by a man, but by a man who was labelled a misogynist for his views on women.

    Like


  235. Obsidian, I am mostly in agreement with you regarding superiority of mystery’s game versus the rules or girl game. I have however known several women that have applied the satanic witch with mixed results.

    These girls were a combination of the Waif/neurotic or Eternal Ingenue that Roissy wrote about in How To Handle Femmes Fatales. They all looked cute/jailbaitish. They were all into the occult and knew about the satanic witch and applied LaVeys principles to the letter. From the ages of 15 to 23 they had an almost hypnotic effect on a lot of guys. After age 24, the “cute” went away, and girl game didn’t work as well.

    The women for whom this book worked were all high testosterone, goal oriented, frigid, had a history of physical and sexual abuse, took drugs and were raised by aggressive single mothers. They were all subject to depression, self mutilation and emotional instability. With one exception they were slightly above average in looks 6-7, but looked much younger than they were. They all had a very male way of thinking and had guy interests. Sure sounds like pure, top notch LTR material doesn’t it. In spite of this they had a mob of betas competing to white Knight for them.

    One girl had her two male “friends” give her all their money, cook, clean the apartment( which they paid for) buy her drinks, pay all her expenses and not bother her while she was on the computer or having wild sex with her thug boyfriend. She would date a string of thuggish guys, while her bitchboy support system waited for their Christmas hugs. Her boyfriends were usually lesser alpha player types but she eventually turned them into betas. Then she dumped them. Then they went crazy and stalked her, got arrested/scared off by the next thug.

    The one girl that wasn’t able to use the book was, a 19y/o HB 8.5, intelligent, educated, gentle, feminine, middle class, normal girl. She was very popular with guys but was in a committed relationship and completely faithful. She broke up with her boyfriend because she was kinky and he wasn’t. She got swooped up by a PUA, and treated to kinky sex. Shortly thereafter she found herself cheated on and dumped with only the memory of a traumatic abortion and STDs to keep her warm at night. She still thinks fondly of the guy.

    Like


  236. As an addendum I should point out that the PUA that scored the hottie was, short, bald, poor, a pot head and fucked up, but ran tight, almost textbook game. She didn’t stand a chance. No matter how many of LaVey’s books she read, she lacked the emotional detachment and ruthlessness to use it. Roissy is right Game beats the Rules or Satanic equivalent.

    Ironically, the girl with the beta providers who beta-ized her thug boyfriends got Gamed by the father of one of the ex boyfriends. This guy was in his mid 40’s a minor musician and a natural alpha.

    I watched him harshly neg this girl, run asshole game, and be cocky and funny while doing it. She was eating up every word and later told me that if he was just a bit younger she would have jumped him on the kitchen table. She did end up becoming a sort of surrogate “daughter”. Last I heard he was helping her out financially.

    Like


  237. Chic Noir,

    O: On the other hand, Oprah Winfrey will NEVER pull as many eligible Men as Tyra Banks.

    CN: ha
    there are plenty of good looking but broke men who need a few extra dollars and are willing to roll with oprah to put a few in their pockets.

    O: Chic, I have yet to hear ANY Black Man, or any Man of any race for that matter, ever say they thought Oprah was hot, or, that they’d be willing to get w/her for her money. Aside from the Steadman Sham, she’s never been known to be w/any Man, especially any of any consequence.

    I rest my case.

    O

    Like


  238. Absinthe,
    Thanks for the additional info regarding The Satanic Witch. While in no way scientific or comprehensive, I still think we can tease out some key points from your observations that lend themselves directly to our discussion:

    1. That “Girl Game”, to the extent such a thing exists, hinges directly on said gal’s inherent beauty/youth. Once that goes, no amount of skills-based Game is gonna save her, so to speak.

    2. That a known misogynist, according to Nicole, actually wrote The Satanic Witch instead of a Woman, and is considered superior to say, The Rules, really tells one all they need to know about the fundamental differences btw the sexes; it explains why ANYTHING based on Matriarchy will invariably be primitive, primeival at the very least, bringing Paglia’s famed quote to mind, that if the building of civilization was left to Women we’d all still be living in grass huts. It is my firm belief and view that Women are incapable of devising a female Mystery Method because they simply aren’t motivated to create such a system-all of their “weapons” are “on-board” so to speak. They just need to have the good sense to make the best possible choice of a mate and to do it before the clock runs out. That’s it.

    Thanks again.

    O

    Like


  239. Roissy writes, “O, both you and PA are right. you’re right in that because so much of a woman’s sexual desireability is wrapped up in her looks, she does not need to learn to nearly the same extent men need to learn, any sort of “game” as a consciously aware system for attracting the opposite sex. PA is right inasmuch as a woman’s sluttiness or lack thereof will have real consequences for her ability to keep the man she watns around for longer than a short fling. also, there is the matter of femininity. a hot babe, if she acts like a man, can get laid, but she would find it harder than an equivalently hot feminine babe to get the men she wants the most to commit to her.”

    I’ve seen very pretty women (including one of the most beautiful women I ever met) get dumped by men who immediately met and soon married someone else, also beautiful of course. I’m not trying to deny that beauty is important in such cases. I’m saying that with men who are in a position to date only beauties (natural alphas), beauty in itself isn’t going to be what closes the deal, from the woman’s point of view, if she wants a husband rather than a fling.

    Women can and do drive men away by seeming too needy, or too eager for marriage (a very tricky issue to cope with), or simply incompatible. The last of those issues isn’t one that can be resolved with female “game”, but the others can be, to some extent.

    I’m convinced that when you are eventually caught by some beauty (and I’m sure you will be some day, in spite of your disclaimers), it will be by a woman who is a master of female game.

    Like


  240. off topic question , is the army a good place for an beta/o m e g a to break out of his shell and be better with women?

    I just saw that someone asked this earlier. Short answer: Yes and No, but if you are not a complete fuckup, then Yes.

    Where the military can help you is in teaching you to reach down and find a pair down there. And they do it with the principle of “tear you down to build you back up.” Starting with your first day in basic training, you are the lowest puke on the human totem pole, hollered at and abused by everyone, from the post’s commanding officer, through the drill instructors, on down to the slack-jawed fat slug civilian women serving food in the mess hall.

    But – at the same time, you and your fellow recruits take turns being squad leaders, responsible for the appearance, performance, etc. of the other guys. If some guy in your squad has a messy wall locker, it both his and your ass. So from day one, as abuse and yelling is heaped upon you by the training cadre, you also get to yell, supervise, and instruct others.

    And the twist is, that even basic training recruits are human, not robots. So if you are a douchebag or a dork, your squad members aren’t gonna take your orders seriously, and they will sabotage you to make you look bad in front of the drill sergeant. As is the case in any supervisor-worker relationship, from a fast food store on up through Fortune 500 executives. This is often the first time a young guys is in a position of leadership, and for many, it’s a great chance to lean how to act alpha.

    Military training also drills alpha body language and demeanor into you – stand straight, walk with a purpose, sound off like you got a pair.

    [One note of caution – for an o m e g a, a military environment can be the straw that snaps the camel’s back. Think Gomer Pyle in Full Metal Jacket. (Though to be fair, that character was singled out for abuse by his DI). But when I was in basic training (late 1980s) we had one guy who snapped. Started muttering bizarre threats to other guys, got caught jerking off into the bathroom sink, etc. As far as I know, he got a psych discharge.]

    But outlier cases aside, all these things in the military, along with the physical training like push ups, sit ups, running, weapons training, can help you with girls indirectly, by giving you a boost of confidence. The camaraderie-building activities like marching, cadence-calling, common purpose, etc. are also big confidence-builders for guys. Especially for previously-underperforming guys who were shy, non-athletic slackers during high school.

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  241. Women can and do drive men away by seeming too needy, or too eager for marriage (a very tricky issue to cope with), or simply incompatible. The last of those issues isn’t one that can be resolved with female “game”, but the others can be, to some extent.

    Women can also turn men off by “being themselves” in the sense of not acting feminine.

    As I described above a few days ago, slouching around in a frumpy bathrobe, loudly munching on a chicken thigh while gossiping on the phone in a husky monotonous voice, is non-Game behavior that even hot women would turn guys off with.

    That’s why women only act this way around, say, siblings or their girlfreinds, never around guys they like.

    Like


  242. Also, having been in the military, especially if you had been in combat or other life-threatning situations, is priceless in terms of feeling superior to other men, and that’s a shot of confidence that never leaves you.

    Like


  243. “loudly munching on a chicken thigh”

    Yesterday, Pupu munched on a fried chicken thigh in one of the I-95 rest stations. One bite failed to catch every crumb, and a piece fell on a grease-stained paper liner inside a flimsy plastic tray. It was one of the lowest points of Pupu’s life. A trivial event, such as the falling of a crumb, could actually trigger an existential crisis. Sadly, that was not the only time Pupu had munched on a fried chicken thigh in highway rest stations. Driving brings out the worst in Pupu.

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  244. Half my family is career military and they’re not especially good with women. Just being in the military didn’t endow them with the ability to talk to women, ‘game’ women, or (especially) use a version of LTR game. I have no idea on the older generations, since that generation didn’t divorce and if the men stepped out, etc., they sure as hell didn’t share it with the granddaughters/grandnieces, but the boomer generation didn’t seem able to keep their women (though they all replaced them just fine.)

    @ Bhettit skim the other thread. Compared to the usual tone Roissy practically coos an acknowledgment of LR’s pain to her.

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  245. The military won’t teach you game and attracting women directly, but it will, as I described, give you the confidence and break you out of your shell, if you happen to be an underperforming but otherwise cool guy. Which are all indirectly helpful toward being attractive to women.

    I also noticed a difference between one-term enlistment guys vs. lifer types. The latter are more rigid institutional type, which might describe the career military guys in your family.

    Like


  246. on August 10, 2009 at 12:04 pm Marcus Aureliette

    O:
    Now, of course, if she has other qualities to add to the mix all the better; but simply put, a Plain Jane or a Homely Helen sub-5 w/the heart of gold ain’t likely to land the topshelf guys of the world.

    I’m not even bothering with topshelf, I’m taking it a step further: a Plain Jane or Homely Helen 5 or below with a heart of gold is going to have trouble getting — and more trouble holding onto — even a fellow 5.

    The commenters here completely underestimate the hypergamy of men. I’m not saying women don’t do it, I’m saying that men do it too, and it’s a lot more common than you seem to think, even amongst the lower ranks.

    They just need to have the good sense to make the best possible choice of a mate and to do it before the clock runs out. That’s it.

    But that’s seriously risky, at best. Having watched a number of middle-aged coworkers bail on their high-school sweetheart wives for younger, sportier models once the kids had flown the coop, imho the very best sense would be for the woman to hedge that mate-choice bet by making sure she has the means to provide for herself in case it goes south.

    And by “provide for herself” I mean just that: get an education; have a vocation beyond the marriage and never let it stagnate. I’m not talking about a divorce windfall. I think it’s a huge mistake to put your distant future — whether emotional or financial — into someone else’s hands, however enthusiastic they may seem in the present.

    Like


  247. I think it might be important to make some distinctions here wrt the USA Military and Game. If you’ll forgive me, it seems that the Marines are seen by Women as hotter than are Army soldiers or Navy sailors-enlisted, of course. All bets may be off for officers.

    Definitely, the thinking of the Marines is far and away different from that which one will see in the Navy, Army or Air Force. I think that directly contributes to Game.

    Comments?

    O

    Like


  248. Definitely, the thinking of the Marines is far and away different from that which one will see in the Navy, Army or Air Force.

    Military branches, by coolness factor:

    Marines: per Obsidian, you can’t go wrong with the USMC. The dress uniform alone is a poon magnet.

    Army: low-ASVAB-score support units (cook, clerk, supply, mechanic), naaah. Hi-ASVAB support units (medic, aviation, intel) — got potential. Infantry, airborne, etc – resist the urge to be a loudmouth douchebag, and you’re cool. Special ops: top of the fucking world.

    Navy – sailing around the world gives you cool points; otherwise, see Army low-ASVABs

    Air Force – dorks, every last one of them, unless you’re a fighter pilot

    Officers, any branch – poon central if you know how to work it

    Like


  249. on August 10, 2009 at 12:39 pm mandy been here a while

    O
    Somewhat unrelated….

    I’ve heard that Marines of any race tend to have more in common with other Marines than with people of their own race who aren’t Marines.

    Maybe the key to a harmonious multi-racial society is for us all to go through devil-dogs boot camp together?

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  250. Definitely, the thinking of the Marines is far and away different from that which one will see in the Navy, Army or Air Force. I think that directly contributes to Game.

    *shrug*

    Mine are all either Navy or Marine, though they have some of that intractability PA referenced. (Also, much more easily rendered putty in girly hands than the non-military uncles). Of my gen military I know, more are Army officers (I think I only know a few Navy pilots). I have been *assured* that a West Point ring is a panty dropper (I have been assured of this!), though any college ring on a 32+ year old . . . Fighter pilots, panty droppers, though that may also be part of the personality type of those who seek that job.

    The FBI boys I ran around with were all intelligent/terrorism which was catnip a couple years ago in DC.

    Also, I don’t think I know any who have real female friends.

    Like


  251. Absinthe and Obsidian, the problem with the junior hoes who apply the principles of _TSW_ when they’re younger, is that they don’t remember what LaVey said you’re supposed to do when you get older.

    If an older woman uses the tactics for older women, they will work. I’ve used them myself very successfully…I mean without a miss, since I stopped trying to be “good” rather than adhering to my own code of honor regardless of whether it would result in certain people perceiving me as evil.

    I made the mistake of gifting my copy to a friend when I left the U.S. because in my romantic delusion, I didn’t think I’d need it anymore. It’s a good thing I have a pretty good memory, and there are websites where the principles are discussed.

    What men should remember is that the objective, for women, is not usually to get sex. It is to be sexy, and get a life partner.

    When a woman is younger, her youth and beauty will take her pretty far, but she also needs to not detract from that just for the sake of fashion. When a woman is older, attempting to cling to her youth doesn’t work nearly as well as successfully aging well.

    Being inaccessible also garners a fair degree of admiration. Older women are supposed to be forbidden because they’re supposed to usually be taken. If one is not taken, she is supposed to only be accessible to men who are at least a few years older than her. A man her age or even one year younger should have to fight his way through hordes of Mongols and sea monsters because she is old fashioned.

    So what older “Satanic Witches” do is take themselves off the general market and become the hot older ladies the younger ladies hope they will be, as well as the older ladies the younger guys wish they could do. This whole cougar thing with older women being openly accessible has become a problem for us all, because now older women are “doable” in a disposable kind of way.

    Once I realized the gravity of the problem, I just closed the shop until I was pursued by a very serious man whose word is frighteningly his bond.

    Some women just can’t handle the transition. _TSW_ is a very good book if someone doesn’t only pay attention to the parts that apply to young women.

    Like


  252. Pupu just redeemed herself with a large twist in pink and green from Thomas Sweet — life is once again filled with meaning and joy.

    Like


  253. on August 10, 2009 at 1:43 pm Black Military Man

    Game in the sense of self improvement works on some level for both men and women. However, it has its limits. Nothing however beats having meaning to your life, something that you live for and something that makes for interesting conversation and puts an energetic skip in your walk, which is attractive to both sexes.

    As a military man, I say military training can both help and hinder in this regard. For many of us, ordinary civilian life is something that we have to acclimatize ourselves to and we often feel like “outsiders”.

    Obsidian, I’ve noticed you ignored both my comments above in response to you – the one on Kama Sutra for women and the one about Jay Z and Beyonce. Perhaps you just didn’t see them?

    Like


  254. on August 10, 2009 at 1:53 pm snatch magnet

    Being in the military, officer or not, is no guarantee of alpha status, or being a poon magnet for that matter.
    Today’s military is vastly different from what existed in the Vietnam era and before. True its all volunteer, but recruitment is geared toward techies and ethnic groups as a means to an end.
    The Army of one thing was a joke and caused more problems than anything else.
    PA, is right. It does give you a foundation, but by nature one must be a follower to be successful.
    I was an Army Armor Officer for 12 years and I got to the point where I just couldn’t deal with the suckups and incompetents any longer. The military is the only job where you can perform poorly and be given a job with less responsibility and a cost of living raise every year.
    In my experience and personal opinion West Pointers are the worst of the lot. Social retards. I’ve met very few who were worth a shit but those that were good were very good.
    There is a point around the 10 yr mark where Officers sell their souls for their careers. They know nothing else, are probably overpaid for what they do and in fact lack life skills and work experience to venture out into the real world. I know this for a fact. I was scared to death to start over.
    White Knighters are everywhere in the Military, no matter what branch. I’ve seen an awful lot of Officers, West Pointers in particular, get played and totally screwed over by women simply because they felt they had to be this chivalrous guy all the time. And the more rank they had the worse it was.
    But if worked right, like PA said, the military can work for you in the women department.

    Like


  255. The commenters here completely underestimate the hypergamy of men. I’m not saying women don’t do it, I’m saying that men do it too, and it’s a lot more common than you seem to think, even amongst the lower ranks.

    @marcus aureliette –

    I think that there is a terminology difference here. Hypergamy doesn’t mean “getting the best you can” – it means only settling for the best. The two concepts are different. A top dog alpha will have sex not only with 8-10s, but also, at whim, with 6s and 7s if they are cute, available and in his face. That isn’t hypergamous behvaior – it’s promiscuous/polygamous behavior. If he were hypergamous, he would not sleep with anyone less than a 9 or 10.

    A greater beta may appear to be behaving hypergamously by being very selective in terms of looks, but the guys who get laid the most are much less selective – that’s how they get laid a lot. And even the betas and greater betas, if they are shooting for the 7s and 8s, will often settle, as the night draws to a close, for a 5 or 6 if she is cute and sexually available. Not all will, of course, but the ones who want to get laid will.

    Women, by contrast, do not behave like this at all. They are much less prone to settle (other than when selecting a husband, because many realise they need to settle for that decision), and much more prone to simply go without. How many 9s, finding themselves alone at the end of the evening, will settle for a beta or greater beta because they are horny? Not many, if any at all.

    At least not if they’re sober … 🙂

    the very best sense would be for the woman to hedge that mate-choice bet by making sure she has the means to provide for herself in case it goes south.
    And by “provide for herself” I mean just that: get an education; have a vocation beyond the marriage and never let it stagnate. I’m not talking about a divorce windfall. I think it’s a huge mistake to put your distant future — whether emotional or financial — into someone else’s hands, however enthusiastic they may seem in the present.

    This is sensible enough.
    Personally I think that once the kids are of age, all bets are off on marriage. I’m against no-fault divorce when minor kids are present, but after they are grown, bring on no fault divorce, with no alimony and so on unless fault is proven, and let everyone call it a day.

    Like


  256. on August 10, 2009 at 2:22 pm Advice for Bonnie

    @snatch magnet,
    What was it about West Pointers that you could not respect?

    Like


  257. on August 10, 2009 at 2:42 pm Marcus Aureliette

    nova:

    Perhaps I’m misusing the term, then. What I was trying to convey is that anyone who thinks every 5 guy will be content to get genuine devotion in a LTR from a good-girl fellow 5 is sadly mistaken. Humans are opportunists. For every 5 guy who appreciates his well-matched 5 girl, there’ll be a 5 guy whose ego gets shored up by the 5 girl’s attention to the point where he’ll decide a 5’s not good enough.

    Which, practically-speaking, is worse than a pump & dump, because it wastes valuable time and resources, which, for us, are finite.

    How many times do you think that has to happen before a good woman decides it’s simply not worth the effort to take that gamble again?

    (BTW, I’m not concerned with what the 9s do. They are, by definition, a distinct minority. I’m more interested in the fate of the unremarkable majority.)

    Women, by contrast, do not behave like this at all. They are much less prone to settle (other than when selecting a husband, because many realise they need to settle for that decision), and much more prone to simply go without.

    Which is how it has to be, if you ever want to have a reasonable contingent of good (decent, moral, non-sleazy, low-partner-count) women to marry.

    Going without is not something women whimsically do to punish men, and just because we’re capable of doing it doesn’t mean it’s easy for us. (I know you didn’t say this, nova, it’s just in response to sentiment seen in some posts lately.)

    Personally I think that once the kids are of age, all bets are off on marriage. I’m against no-fault divorce when minor kids are present, but after they are grown, bring on no fault divorce, with no alimony and so on unless fault is proven, and let everyone call it a day.

    I fear that you’re right about the fate of marriage, post-children. I don’t see a lot of them lasting anymore, which I find sad.

    I’ve known too many people who were robbed blind by the no-fault system (men and women both). I’m against no-fault altogether. If he ditches her for midlife crisis reasons after the kids are grown and she’s spent a big chunk of time out of the loop with her career on hold because the husband wanted a full-time wife, then some alimony is fair. But that kind of dynamic is pretty rare — although some guys here might be surprised at how many men are out there who won’t allow their wives to work because they view it as an insult to their manhood. Certainly a pre-nup spelling such things out seems like it might help.

    And if she ditches him for whimsical reasons (as opposed to legitimate dysfunction or abuse), she shouldn’t get a penny.

    Like


  258. on August 10, 2009 at 2:56 pm mandy been here a while

    novaseeker

    Personally I think that once the kids are of age, all bets are off on marriage. I’m against no-fault divorce when minor kids are present, but after they are grown, bring on no fault divorce, with no alimony and so on unless fault is proven, and let everyone call it a day.”

    I understand in theory. This is an improvement on anything goes that we have now.

    However, if 2 people are together for a few decades, they plan their future assuming they will retire together and work towards that day, looking forward to bouncing their grandkids on their knees, would it really be OK for one of them to bail because they got bored or some other silly reason?

    Like


  259. ””””’PA,
    Army: low-ASVAB-score support units (cook, clerk, supply, mechanic), naaah. Hi-ASVAB support units (medic, aviation, intel) — got potential. Infantry, airborne, etc – resist the urge to be a loudmouth douchebag, and you’re cool. Special ops: top of the fucking world.”””’

    Waa the marines take guys as long as they can write there name on asvab. Army most mos 110 gt. he he he

    Like


  260. ””””’Obsidian
    I think it might be important to make some distinctions here wrt the USA Military and Game. If you’ll forgive me, it seems that the Marines are seen by Women as hotter than are Army soldiers or Navy sailors-enlisted, of course. All bets may be off for officers.

    Definitely, the thinking of the Marines is far and away different from that which one will see in the Navy, Army or Air Force. I think that directly contributes to Game.

    Comments?

    O”””””””””””””

    We did have marines in my ait. They did about ten extra weeks of basic and I think it maybe was all drills. So yea there were no individuals. They marched to piss. We got to walk on our own.

    Like


  261. ””””””””’Marcus Aureliette,
    Which, practically-speaking, is worse than a pump & dump, because it wastes valuable time and resources, which, for us, are finite.

    How many times do you think that has to happen before a good woman decides it’s simply not worth the effort to take that gamble again?
    ””””””””””””’

    Now woman are just talking shit. I gave you chance to be number three before for life. lol

    Like


  262. Start thinking more like mandy you will be fine. Maybe

    Like


  263. However, if 2 people are together for a few decades, they plan their future assuming they will retire together and work towards that day, looking forward to bouncing their grandkids on their knees, would it really be OK for one of them to bail because they got bored or some other silly reason?

    @mandy bhaw

    I can understand that. As you know, I am quite biased in favor of fault-only divorce. Once the kids are gone it’s a harder issue, but I could easily be convinced it should also be fault only. 🙂

    How many times do you think that has to happen before a good woman decides it’s simply not worth the effort to take that gamble again?

    @m.a. —

    I get that.

    How many of those “5” men can bed women who are 6s and 7s? Maybe with Game some can. But that also means that they are no longer “5” men — they have become 6 or 7 men (and I don’t think the same scale applies, but I am using it to match what you wrote for the purposes of discussion) and are batting in their new home. Women can also move between ranks by taking care of themselves, haircuts, clothing, makeup, botox, surgery (if they wish). So maybe a woman is a “natural” 3 and through effort becomes a 5. She shouldn’t feel entitled to a “natural guy 5” who has Game, because he is now a 6 or 7. But the guys who are “natural guy 4s and 3s” who have Game should be in her view.

    Does that make sense?

    Like


  264. As a practical matter, it takes two professional incomes to provide safety and security for kids, so yes having a degree that is useful is wise for women. Turning education into a feminine “mostly” province as it is now, however, is not wise.

    Like


  265. on August 10, 2009 at 3:35 pm mandy been here a while

    novaseeker

    “but I could easily be convinced it should also be fault only”

    Or maybe at least make it so both parties agree to divorce even if there is no fault, perhaps. Either way, the unilateral no-fault divorce just gives one side way too much power if change of mind occurs in only one party.

    Really if we could just find a way for divorce to be less profitable to divorce filers, lawyers and other assorted parasites, we’d probably see cultural improvements.

    Like


  266. MA,

    O: Now, of course, if she has other qualities to add to the mix all the better; but simply put, a Plain Jane or a Homely Helen sub-5 w/the heart of gold ain’t likely to land the topshelf guys of the world.

    MA: I’m not even bothering with topshelf, I’m taking it a step further: a Plain Jane or Homely Helen 5 or below with a heart of gold is going to have trouble getting — and more trouble holding onto — even a fellow 5 .

    O: Tru dat.

    MA: The commenters here completely underestimate the hypergamy of men. I’m not saying women don’t do it, I’m saying that men do it too, and it’s a lot more common than you seem to think, even amongst the lower ranks.

    O: Men aren’t interested in a Woman’s earning or social position as much as the reverse. This is easily observed all the time-how many “Bimbo Wives” does a Donald Trump have? Now let’s turn it around-how many male equivalents does say, an Oprah Winfrey have? To ask the question is to answer it.

    O: They just need to have the good sense to make the best possible choice of a mate and to do it before the clock runs out. That’s it.

    MA: But that’s seriously risky, at best. Having watched a number of middle-aged coworkers bail on their high-school sweetheart wives for younger, sportier models once the kids had flown the coop, imho the very best sense would be for the woman to hedge that mate-choice bet by making sure she has the means to provide for herself in case it goes south.

    O: W/all due respect I find your comments to be irrelevant. Please see my remarks below as to why.

    MA: And by “provide for herself” I mean just that: get an education; have a vocation beyond the marriage and never let it stagnate. I’m not talking about a divorce windfall. I think it’s a huge mistake to put your distant future — whether emotional or financial — into someone else’s hands, however enthusiastic they may seem in the present.

    O: That may be true, but I see it as irrelevant to the discussion. The bottomline is that a Woman’s beauty or lack thereof pretty much sets the tone for things, NOT her education, business smarts, work ethic, etc, et al. At best, they are pleasant “add ons” to a Man, but they do not and cannot makeup for her lack of beauty. Period.

    O

    Like


  267. Or maybe at least make it so both parties agree to divorce even if there is no fault, perhaps. Either way, the unilateral no-fault divorce just gives one side way too much power if change of mind occurs in only one party.

    Really if we could just find a way for divorce to be less profitable to divorce filers, lawyers and other assorted parasites, we’d probably see cultural improvements.

    Agreed on all points, from the perspective of the marriage parties. Mostly I get agitated about the impact on kids, but your post reminds me that the H and W also have legitimate interests, especially once the kids are raised.

    Like


  268. on August 10, 2009 at 3:53 pm gunslingergregi

    ””””””””’but your post reminds me that the H and W also have legitimate interests, especially once the kids are raised.””””””””””””””””

    The whole time the husband and wife need to be more important than the kids.

    Like


  269. The whole time the husband and wife need to be more important than the kids.

    True.

    Like


  270. PA:
    Here is a girl who does not do Female Game: slouches around the house in a frumpy bath towel, talks bullshit gossip while munching loudly on a chicken thigh and her voice is husky and monotonous.

    THIS is a girl “being herself.” Not even a 10 could get away with this kind of bearing around most men.

    a 10 could get away with that. easily. sure, it’s not the ideal feminine behavior, but how many men would then turn up their noses at sex with her? how many men would refrain from having a relationship with a 10 who munched loudly?

    answer: you could count them on one hand.

    beauty is far and away the most important variable in female game. a 10 can afford to slouch around in frumpy clothes because her sheer beauty will overwhelm the drab fabric. handicap principle in full effect, yo.

    since beauty accounts for so much of a woman’s mate value, there is little that mediocre or ugly women can do to grab the interest of men much above their own ranking.

    now as i explained above to you and Ob, there is some variant of game available to women. it consists of acting coy and not being a slut, basically. a man with many options may fuck a hot chick but he might think twice about commiting to a hot chick who belches loudly in public. or to put it another way: female beauty is necessary but not sufficient for persuading an alpha male to commit.

    nevertheless, all this proves is that female game is much less extensive, and a lot easier to implement, than is male game, as long as the basic beauty prerequisite is met.

    If yo see the image above as the most unsexy thing imaginable, that’s exactly how chicks feel when they see a beta nice guys with no Game.

    no, it’s not the same. a lesser beta is viscerally unappealing to women. a hot chick munching on a chicken thigh is still a hot chick munching on a chicken thigh.

    Like


  271. a 10 could get away with that.

    I did overstate my point. A 10 can get away with unfeminine behavior. For a while anyway. 10s tend to be with superalphas anyway, and it’s in her interest to not irritate or disgust him over time.

    But a 6-8? morning face does need to go through magic touches to turn her from a fema-lump into a gilded thing of desire.

    I’m in agreement with you on the fact that beauty is by far the most important component of female Game. I think Gig put it well, that male Game unbinds a man from the limitation of his looks, while female game is confined to the natural constraints delineated by her looks.

    Like


  272. mu to Chic, I have yet to hear ANY Black Man, or any Man of any race for that matter, ever say they thought Oprah was hot, or, that they’d be willing to get w/her for her money. Aside from the Steadman Sham, she’s never been known to be w/any Man, especially any of any consequence.

    She has money, with money she can buy any man she wants to have. She doesn’t need a man for companionship, she has Gail and other friends for that. She just needs a man who can perform *wink wink*.

    How many men would turn down 100k for 30 minutes work? Mu, you would certainly hit for 100k and I know money hungry guns and seeking alpha would too 🙂

    Like


  273. on August 10, 2009 at 5:53 pm gunslingergregi

    If it was only the money chic I would get a harem of fat chicks to give me there money 🙂

    Like


  274. on August 10, 2009 at 5:53 pm gunslingergregi

    Or pimp woman he he he

    There are limits.

    Like


  275. 30 minutes for 100k guns, I think you would do it and so would most of the men here, especially the loser guys. most men walk around daily looking to give it away for free anyway so why not get a bonus.

    are there any men here who wouldn’t hit off oprah for 100k? lets be honest please.

    Like


  276. PA, but those “natural constraints” are pretty wide for a woman without any serious physical defects, which is most women.

    How many models are “objectively” beautiful, rather than average or below, and simply tall and thin?

    Modelling is a field that can get many a plain Jane exposed to men she’d have no chance of even meeting if she prioritized her looks above her social status and connections.

    Looks are important, but they are not and have never been everything.

    Like


  277. Nicole, I suspect that you I are splitting hairs. I wrote originally that female game is oriented toward two different goals: appearance and commitment. The latter calls for more non-looks strategy, like showing desirable character traits.

    I was originally reacting to Obsidian’s assertion that all a woman needs is looks and willingness to put out, a point that neglects that 7 often compete with other 7s, 8s with other 8s, and so on. And that “putting out” can make her used by men if not done smartly.

    — I know money hungry guns and seeking alpha would

    Gunslinger is the one who likes money. Seeking Alpha likes disloyalty, treason and population replacement.

    Like


  278. Seeking Alpha likes disloyalty, treason and population replacement.

    i think he’s beginning to come around. probably because he knows that hurling emptyheaded slurs like xenophobe won’t work in these parts. or maybe his car broke down in a vibrant neighborhood. heh.

    Like


  279. It would be good to see SA become a loyal American, since he’s solid on many other subjects.

    Like


  280. PA, maybe I am splitting hairs, not we. I try to remember that men and women put different values on things, but being a very “estrogenic” female (and therefore unable to be objective about this), I sometimes get confused in the middle of a conversation with men.

    Thanks for reminding me. 🙂

    Like


  281. The Sodini dude WAS a world class PUA — almost!

    If he didn’t blow his brains out, he would have had endless conjugal visits with female pen-pals from around the world, just like every other death row inmate.

    Like


  282. on August 10, 2009 at 7:32 pm Black Military Man

    “PA, but those “natural constraints” are pretty wide for a woman without any serious physical defects, which is most women.

    How many models are “objectively” beautiful, rather than average or below, and simply tall and thin?

    Modelling is a field that can get many a plain Jane exposed to men she’d have no chance of even meeting if she prioritized her looks above her social status and connections.”
    ……………………………

    High fashion modeling is a field ruled by gay men. Hence women who heterosexual men find feminine and attractive are not represented amongst them. High fashion models look like tall, gangly adolescent boys, the types of guys gay men are attracted to. Once those women hit 20 and fill out a bit, they then qualify for lingerie or swimsuit modeling, and hence, start looking like women that are more like what heterosexual men find attractive.

    In high fashion modeling “odd” or “masculine” faces are preferred over softer, more feminine ones. Odd and angular faces photograph better perhaps, but softer and more feminine faces look better in real life.

    High fashione models in general do not represent what heterosexual men in general find attractive.

    I’m watching “Millionaire Matchmaker” right now. She is trying to find LTR matches for two extremely successful and wealthy 48 year old men who like to date 20 something women. She is having a hard time. She is telling them that if they are really serious about LTR love of the faithful variety, they have to forget about 20 something chicks.

    It’s reality TV, but just thought how coincidental.

    Also, seems like that pic of Sodini in the blue shirt matching his blue eyes is the only one where he looks fit and somewhat decent. All the other photos show him as a man who let himself go (out of shape and unattractive).

    Like


  283. No self-respecting PUA (SRPUA) drives a Nissan Altima or can wire a CAT 5 … too bad for RSD…

    No SRPUA makes youtube videos about his loneliness…

    No SRPUA worries about one more day…one more year…

    No SRPUA is worried about his dining room table matching his walls…

    No SRPUA buys a $79k house and thinks he paid too much…

    No SRPUA worries about her feelings 10 to 20 years from now…

    No SRPUA thinks a 32″ TV is hot shit…(can a tv could remove the panties from a tingling vag??)

    No SRPUA uses speakers as an end table…

    No SRPUA is concerned if his chairs match…

    No SRPUA is worried about his back yard…

    No SRPUA would worry about his unfinished basement…

    Most Def a Provider…

    Like


  284. Here is a girl who does not do Female Game: slouches around the house in a frumpy bath towel, talks bullshit gossip while munching loudly on a chicken thigh and her voice is husky and monotonous.

    THIS is a girl “being herself.” Not even a 10 could get away with this kind of bearing around most men.

    No, no that’s bullshit for a woman to act like that. That’s one thing I can’t stand women letting themselves be all sloppy and do disgusting things like belch and not shave for a few days!!! Ugh I think it’s fair for a man to except a girl to smell good, look decent, be smooth and look like a female.

    You can’t expect a man to take out the trash and hold doors open or whatever if you’re going to be nasty.

    Like


  285. on August 10, 2009 at 9:47 pm Marcus Aureliette

    nova:
    How many of those “5″ men can bed women who are 6s and 7s? Maybe with Game some can. But that also means that they are no longer “5″ men — they have become 6 or 7 men (and I don’t think the same scale applies, but I am using it to match what you wrote for the purposes of discussion) and are batting in their new home.

    I see what you’re saying, although I was talking about 5s who become discontented with what they have even before they’ve determined whether or not they can aim higher with any success. (Which pretty accurately describes how almost all my guy friends feel about their respective gfs/wives, which is really, really demoralizing.)

    Whether or not he can actually be successful is irrelevant to the girl he’s bailing on: the relationship is already ruined even if he can’t do better, because who wants to stay with someone who believes they can do better? Any girl this happens to is going to be understandably gun-shy going forward, and willing to go without rather than repeat the experience.

    O:
    That may be true, but I see it as irrelevant to the discussion. The bottomline is that a Woman’s beauty or lack thereof pretty much sets the tone for things, NOT her education, business smarts, work ethic, etc, et al. At best, they are pleasant “add ons” to a Man, but they do not and cannot makeup for her lack of beauty.

    No, O, it’s relevant. Because even ugly girls have to make their way in the world…regardless of how much of an aesthetic affront some guys may consider it. And if, as is commonly stated here, pretty girls are only a few years away from their own obsolescence, they had better have a way of getting by in the world that isn’t dependent on whether or not a guy wants to fuck them.

    I’m not saying education, etc. does or should mean a tinker’s cuss to a man. I’m saying that, given that a man’s interest is going to be fickle at best, and a woman’s ability to attract that attention is to a large degree out of her control in that it’s primarily determined by her luck in the genetic lottery, it is in her best interest to make sure she can look after herself rather than put her long-term future at the mercy of a man, no matter how much he seems to dig her in the short term. Particularly when there’s a good chance he’ll ultimately leave her for someone younger/prettier, given the opportunity.

    I’m not the first poster here to observe that an alarming number of men seriously overestimate the level of woman they can realistically expect to fraternise with…in fact, you’ve said that your own self. And you were right.

    This is easily observed all the time-how many “Bimbo Wives” does a Donald Trump have? Now let’s turn it around-how many male equivalents does say, an Oprah Winfrey have? To ask the question is to answer it.

    Again, the lifestyles of the rich and/or highly-ranked are of zero use to the unwashed masses. What Trump or Oprah do is about as relevant to everyday people as what aliens do in Alpha Centauri. Or wherever.

    It might come as a surprise to some that there are things of import in life that don’t actually revolve around whether or not men find them attractive. Whether or not I can look after myself may not be of interest to you, but it’s certainly of primary importance to me.

    gregi:
    Now woman are just talking shit. I gave you chance to be number three before for life. lol

    LOL! And while I appreciated it, I did respectfully decline that… uh, generous offer. If a guy’s going to be my one and only, then I’m going to be his, or no deal. Quid pro quo, Clarice….

    Like


  286. on August 11, 2009 at 6:04 am gunslingergregi

    lol mc

    Like


  287. on August 11, 2009 at 6:11 am gunslingergregi

    That is what I am talking about woman want love but don’t want to share. Too picky. I guess the challenge I suppose.
    Why in life it is not about just getting shit thats easy. It is about doing it in the way our inner soul tells us we need to do it. This is where game can help guys quite a bit they can find the woman there inner soul needs because they have choice otherwise they end up not knowing what they crave.

    Like


  288. they had better have a way of getting by in the world that isn’t dependent on whether or not a guy wants to fuck them

    no one opposes that. but keep in mind that “wants to fuck” is the prelude of “proposes marriage” so if you loose your “wnats to fuck years” in your career you won´t have any “proposes of marriage”.

    guys want to fuck based on beauty and want to commit based on character, given beauty, with betas sacrificing the latter in order to maximize the former thus making the day of divorce lawyers

    also, having a child at 23 won´t condemn you to uter poverty. but delaying childbirth until 33 will probably condemn you to a beta husband, divorce bonanza and a child that is either a petty drug dealer or an herb

    Particularly when there’s a good chance he’ll ultimately leave her for someone younger/prettier, given the opportunity

    this is a lie. and the most commonfemale comment in this blog. The guys who can do this are small share of the male population, but are the only ones a female radar can detect

    Like


  289. My mom had children in her thirties.
    My dad is one of the most insanely alpha men I know.
    My sister and I are certainly not petty drug dealers.
    Delaying childbirth is a very sane career move. For every year a woman delays childbirth (up to the end of fertility), her lifetime average yearly earnings rise by thousands of dollars.

    Like


  290. on August 11, 2009 at 12:12 pm Black Military Man

    The only men whom education and earning potential of a female does not matter is men who are either OK with carrying her entire financial burden – for her entire life – that means alimony too, or men who do not come from sufficiently cultured families where education and social standing means nada.

    I don’t know how many of you guys here are fathers, but I have daughters. As a father it is my duty to prepare my daughters for the real world and make sure that they are able to survive and succeed in this world as adults. The thought of either of my two girls becoming totally dependent on some dude is scary.

    I love my kids and I want never want them to put their precious lives and futures entirely into someone else’s hands.

    Like


  291. @ sarah

    and you are such a happy and lovely person!

    Like


  292. Look, I’m a bit argumentative on this site (because I’m not a fan of PUA stuff) but not 24 hours a day.

    Like


  293. Chic Noir,

    “mu to Chic, I have yet to hear ANY Black Man, or any Man of any race for that matter, ever say they thought Oprah was hot, or, that they’d be willing to get w/her for her money. Aside from the Steadman Sham, she’s never been known to be w/any Man, especially any of any consequence.”

    CN: She has money, with money she can buy any man she wants to have. She doesn’t need a man for companionship, she has Gail and other friends for that. She just needs a man who can perform *wink wink*.

    O: That may be, but like MA, you’re sidestepping my point-how many Men have you heard say they’d tap Oprah if they had half a chance? Now compare that to the number of guys who said the same thing about Tyra Banks. See what I mean? Game, set, match.

    CN: How many men would turn down 100k for 30 minutes work? Mu, you would certainly hit for 100k and I know money hungry guns and seeking alpha would too

    O: Nah. Never was into that sort of thing and ain’t gonna start now. Can’t speak for Gunny though…

    O

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  294. on August 11, 2009 at 4:07 pm Black Military Man

    O: That may be, but like MA, you’re sidestepping my point-how many Men have you heard say they’d tap Oprah if they had half a chance? Now compare that to the number of guys who said the same thing about Tyra Banks. See what I mean?

    Me: Yeah, I see what you mean. But by the same token how many women do you hear sayin’ they get hot and bothered by Donald Trump? Nada.

    The only reason Oprah doesn’t have a harem of nubile young brothers is because she most likely is not a high libido heterosexual.

    That being said, she’s probably had her fair share of occasional paid-off jump-offs, with either or both sexes, and they are sworn to secrecy. She has a reputation to protect afterall.

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  295. MA:

    “O: That may be true, but I see it as irrelevant to the discussion. The bottomline is that a Woman’s beauty or lack thereof pretty much sets the tone for things, NOT her education, business smarts, work ethic, etc, et al. At best, they are pleasant “add ons” to a Man, but they do not and cannot makeup for her lack of beauty.”

    MA: No, O, it’s relevant. Because even ugly girls have to make their way in the world…regardless of how much of an aesthetic affront some guys may consider it. And if, as is commonly stated here, pretty girls are only a few years away from their own obsolescence, they had better have a way of getting by in the world that isn’t dependent on whether or not a guy wants to fuck them.

    O: Its not relevant to our discussion here. Whether ugly girls exist in the world or not, whether they can and/or need to take care of themselves or not, etc et al, all irrelevant. Again: “Girl Game” is really about a Woman’s inherent good looks, or the lack thereof. Either she’s got it, and enough of it, to attract topshelf guys, or she doesn’t. She can be Ivy League Magna Cum Laude, be the CEO of one of the world’s most successful companies, you name it, it will mean nothing to the vast majority of Men if they’re willing to be brutally honest about the matter. Either she’s hot looking, or not.

    MA: I’m not saying education, etc. does or should mean a tinker’s cuss to a man . I’m saying that, given that a man’s interest is going to be fickle at best, and a woman’s ability to attract that attention is to a large degree out of her control in that it’s primarily determined by her luck in the genetic lottery, it is in her best interest to make sure she can look after herself rather than put her long-term future at the mercy of a man, no matter how much he seems to dig her in the short term. Particularly when there’s a good chance he’ll ultimately leave her for someone younger/prettier, given the opportunity.

    O: Irrelevant point, non-sequitur. In no way addresses my basic thesis.

    MA: I’m not the first poster here to observe that an alarming number of men seriously overestimate the level of woman they can realistically expect to fraternise with…in fact, you’ve said that your own self. And you were right.

    O: Yes, I did indeed say that-but again, it’s irrelevant to the point being made here. Which is again, Women have pretty much a fixed set of “tools” w/which to work to attract choice Men, and that’s their looks.

    O: This is easily observed all the time-how many “Bimbo Wives” does a Donald Trump have? Now let’s turn it around-how many male equivalents does say, an Oprah Winfrey have? To ask the question is to answer it.

    MA: Again, the lifestyles of the rich and/or highly-ranked are of zero use to the unwashed masses. What Trump or Oprah do is about as relevant to everyday people as what aliens do in Alpha Centauri. Or wherever.

    O: Tell that to the multi media world, I’m sure they’d agree wholeheartedly with you. Again, Donald Trump could snatch up another Marla Maples type w/the quickness; who can Oprah get? To ask the question, is to answer it.

    MA: It might come as a surprise to some that there are things of import in life that don’t actually revolve around whether or not men find them attractive. Whether or not I can look after myself may not be of interest to you, but it’s certainly of primary importance to me .

    O: Again, no argument there, but its irrelevant to the larger point being made, which is, that “Girl Game” in no way is comparable to Game if such a thing ever existed in the first place; and that a great deal of a Woman’s “power” to attract high quality mates rests almost solely on her inherent beauty, or lack thereof.

    O

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  296. Obsidian,

    never posted here before, but I can give you a CLASSIC example of a blah, plain Jane who literally STOLE an *ELITE* Top-Shelf Alpha male from a hottie female.

    Ever seen Camilla Parker Bowles, Duchess of Cornwall? I get the creepies just thinking about her.

    Ever see Princess Diana? I still remember the Royal Wedding aired when I was a kid. Diana radiated something, something that made her desireable and loveable to the entire English speaking world (and more). It was enough to lure the Prince of Whales, heir to the British throne. (And her not even royalty, but a commoner at the time). Every little girl’s Cinderella story played out in the presses.

    And all of it swept away from Diana by a below average, already married with children hag with whom he carried out an affair. Granted, His and Di’s relationship was known to be sour…but this is Prince Charles, and he could have had his choice (on a GLOBAL scale) of women. Heck, Charles need not even have “true” game. He INHERITED all the game he needed by being royalty. Regardless, I do not know Charles, but every TV interview or appearance he comes across as charming, savvy, intelligent, witty, confident, and of course he has the manners and presence of a groomed would-be King. If “Male Game” is true, his big ears and overbite are insignificant obstacles to bedding any and all the women he wants.

    And still he chose Camilla in the end.

    I’m not disputing MUCH of what you say. I totally agree that any and all above average women can get their needs met on their appearance alone. And if getting you hair and nails done is considered game, wouldn’t it be nice if thats all a guy needed to do 🙂 However, as it has been pointed out, women have different goals, and KEEPING the man is their objective. This requires being MORE than the cute girl at the bar, because cute girls at bars are a dime a dozen.

    On a side note, I’m on my second marriage (Me 36, her 29) On my appearance scale she was a high 7, low 8 when I married her…pretty and really fun. She just had a baby and she is getting her figure back, but I’m not overly worried about that. I wanted a partner and a friend as well as a sexual mate.

    Unfortunately, the craziness has started showing itself and I worry that I had one-itis and overlooked her very serious flaws. The flaws that the FEMINISTS have institutionalized in this generation of women.

    My whole point of this, if this man Sodoni could have walked a mile in a LOT of men’s shoes (multiple marriages, divorces, child support, etc) he may have valued his singleness more. And if he’s been genuine and just put himself out there with no chip on his shoulder, I’m sure he would have experienced a more steady sexual history than he did.

    Unfortunately, he never had the epiphony that might have helped, and it ate at him. I can sort of empathize with his frustrations, having had two year dry spells at points in my life when I was out of the game. Empathize, but do not condone or understand.

    Like


  297. Yup, no doubt CMB’s bagging of Prince Charles is something to be noted. That said, I think her exceptional case only buttresses the rule, not kills it.

    I hope you’re able to cool things out on the homefront. Best of luck to you.

    O

    Like


  298. on August 11, 2009 at 4:25 pm Black Military Man

    WHR: Unfortunately, the craziness has started showing itself and I worry that I had one-itis and overlooked her very serious flaws. The flaws that the FEMINISTS have institutionalized in this generation of women.

    Me: That’s not craziness, that’s PPD, post-partum-depression. All women experience intense hormonal changes after giving birth. Hang in there, it’s temporary. What she needs now is a loving, supportive and understanding husband.

    Like


  299. A comment on the Oprah train of thought I just read.

    Oprah is easily the wealthiest, most powerful woman in the world. In general, men do not put power and wealth high on their list. Looks trump all (in general). Keep with me, I’m in agreement with male game/vs female game in most senses.

    A mental experiment that has merit: I imagine Oprah being in the market. Now, there might be a genuinely wealthy and powerful black male out there who might find her attractive, and in reality Oprah isn’t just butt-ugly anyway. So I’m not ruling out Oprah using the money/power game to get a mate. At that high level, even women have that tool at their disposal.

    But lets say Oprah fell in love with an average Joe (in the money sense), a young but great looking auto mechanic in Chicago, and lets say he was caucasian (not to play those cards, but it follows the logic I speak).

    Now this guy would probably flip if he knew Oprah had the hots for him. He would probably entertain the idea of being her man. Heck, he might even do it. He might even marry her in time.

    But, deep down this man wouldn’t be satisfied. Money and power are not that big of an attraction for a man. His motives were greed to even do it in the first place. He probably figured he’d play around while spending her money and have a hootinanny of a time.

    But Oprah is smart and it wouldn’t last. Oprah wouldn’t be satisfied with a boy toy, and he wouldn’t be satisfied with an old, overweight woman. The marriage would end as quick as it came.

    But the guy would have allimony and freedom, and he’d move on. And this guy, wealthy now, a stack of dough from allimony and settlements, would seek a younger, prettier woman. Eye candy. He’d be nondiscriminant in who he dates. He’d date a girl right out of a trailer park if she had the looks. Trailer park can be fixed, just get her out of it and buy her great clothes.

    OK, my imagination ran wild, but you get the point.

    In the end, power and money didn’t make Oprah more genuinely successful with men. If she’d had the looks, that would not have been the problem.

    Like


  300. Come on Rain,

    Get serious if you want to be enlightened fuck a “career”

    Like


  301. Well, this is one of the reasons I’m happy to be an outlier.

    Not everybody can live as an exception to the rules, but those who can probably should…because the way things normally operate seems to result in people either having to live under a strict pseudo theocracy, or getting screwed by nature for stupidity.

    Some weeks ago, a group of relatively wealthy people’s college age “kids” asked me if I knew where they could gamble. I never know anything since the wake up call a couple of years ago, but I was curious so I asked them how much bank they were starting with. Chests got puffed, and I got replies of the equivalent of $200-500.

    I just laughed at them. I told them that if they found someplace that would let them in at all, they’d just lose all their money. Sure enough, they did find someplace, and they lost their money.

    Little mice will push a button many times just to get a little treat once. Guys watch the television and porn, and spend many nights alone trying to get the elusive unicorn.

    I can’t really fault them. I’m willing to spend years and years alone to be ready for the guy who’s ready for me.

    Thing is, this causes me no bitterness, anger, or frustration except due to rarity of the kinds of guys I’m compatible with. I knew since I was young that the odds are against me. So I was able to have peace about it, and wait, but stay ready…and to deal with the possibility that it may never happen, but at least in the end I can close my eyes knowing that nobody ever really used me.

    I know that what I waited for is worth it.

    …but most people wait for something that turns out not to be worth it.

    The guy who is truly in it for life no matter how old, ugly, or sick you ever become…who sees the beauty in you and the wonder that is you, is rare. The woman truly unique enough to inspire such feelings in a man with that capacity is rare.

    I feel bad in a way for people who will never know that, but maybe it’s one of those neutered cat things. Cut off a cat’s balls, and getting a scratch on the chin is the best thing there is.

    Most men remind me of neutered cats that way. When you are not special, and you don’t recognize special, then looking special is enough.

    Like


  302. WHR: I think you’re spot-on about Sodini not having had the (very common) experience of marriage/divorce to crush his soul and make him appreciate singlehood. Men who idolize marriage (or even LTRs) aren’t in one, and probably never had been.

    Marriage, as we know, is about one pussy forever, usually attached to a nagging wench who will ruin your life, one awful day at a time .. and she holds virtually every legal card, don’t forget it.

    Sounds like you’re in a rising world of hurt there, bro. Could be PPD, but I’m not a doctor (I’m sure BMM isn’t either). Don’t be a dick, but plan for the worst — NOW. Don’t get ass-raped. Get legal help at the earliest possible sign there could be a split. Hang in there and FIGHT!

    Esq.

    Like


  303. WHR

    find a country where you won´t be extradicted for failure to pay child support. open an account in the local bank. discover what it takes (even bribery) to get citizenship.

    Like


  304. on August 13, 2009 at 1:35 am Marcus Aureliette

    this is a lie. and the most commonfemale comment in this blog. The guys who can do this are small share of the male population, but are the only ones a female radar can detect

    Not a lie, merely anecdotal, which I know is regarded as much the same thing around here. You can cite however much data you like, but I’m far more educated by the real life antics of real guys (all of whom would be designated as betas here) with whom I actually interact. Thank god I only work with/am friends with them, because it’s not pretty. In many ways it’s much more grim than anything posted here.

    O: Irrelevant point, non-sequitur. In no way addresses my basic thesis.

    O, give it a rest. I was not debating you. I was expressing my own opinion, commenting on some of your comments along with those of other posters. I wasn’t throwing down the gauntlet of debate — there’ll be no mistaking it when I do — and clearly we’re talking across purposes. The vast majority of the time I agree with you, but I’m not one of the people who stood up for the concept of Girl Game. All I said was that PA was right: being reasonably attractive, interested in sex, and a “good girl” — those qualities alone are not sufficient to achieve the goal (which is LTR, not short-term sex) with even an equally-matched male, never mind an alpha. Whatever that elusive quality is or isn’t, I have no idea, but the rather dismissive “that’s all you need, case closed!” take on it is wholly unhelpful.

    If you want to argue about Girl Game, then do it with someone who’s interested in defending the concept.

    And what the 9s and celebrities do is honestly of no use to me. I’m not one of them. I’m far more interested in the fates of the women who fly beneath the radars of the posters here. Plain chicks do continue to exist even if nobody’s looking at them. Or wants to look at them….

    Like


  305. Obsidian and Marcus, one thing that has to be remembered in the debate on the validity or girl game is that alphas above the nuclear family scale are all outliers.

    That’s part and parcel of being the leader, the one with the most access to the most resources, the one that people look up to…You are one who stands out from the many.

    So their motivations and their needs are going to be different from the majority. Most of the ones I’ve met have a different idea of beauty than most guys. It’s either more closely tied to fertility/nurturing signs, based around a specific fetish, or a relative non issue compared to grooming and behavior.

    The reason hot women are attracted to them is because they are legitimately not impressed by them. They just don’t give a crap what the television says about what beauty is. So the woman has to prove herself through her behavior because her hotness barely makes a blip on his radar.

    His natural counterpart, the alpha female, is one who is herself a leader among women. She is the legit queen bee, not the one who’s shagged the most guys. She’s not the one most guys chase for sex either. She’s the one the most guys want to *marry*.

    There are many hot women that guys who are being honest will say, “I would do her…once.” There are very few women anywhere on the looks range that guys automatically wish they were good enough for.

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  306. I just have to wonder out loud if all this talk of 8, 9’s and 10’s doesn’t leave men here unhappy because realistically they have to settle for less beautiful women. Face it most of you will not have the opportunity to wed, p and d, or date high numbered women. (live deluded if you like) Doesn’t this make you MORE critical of what you had to settle for? So isn’t there potential that without this intense debate of women’s hotness you’d be happy with a six or lower? Realizing of course that every man WANTS a beauty, not debating it doesn’t change that fact. Just wonderin…

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  307. Kind of depends on your goals in life don’t it?

    A woman who can keep a promise is worth more if that is what your looking for. Doesn’t meen a 10 couldn’t keep a promise though. But a good start.

    Can you keep a promise aoefe?

    Like


  308. on August 13, 2009 at 6:18 am Epoxytocin No. 87

    @ nicole

    His natural counterpart, the alpha female, is one who is herself a leader among women. She is the legit queen bee, not the one who’s shagged the most guys. She’s not the one most guys chase for sex either. She’s the one the most guys want to *marry*.

    I may be seriously misinterpreting you, but it seems you’re claiming that most men look for “leadership qualities” in a wife.
    This is ludicrous.

    Most guys want sweet, nurturing, and domestic, not “queen bee” (which is in many ways the antithesis of those qualities).

    Correct me if I’ve misinterpreted.

    @ aoefe

    Face it most of you will not have the opportunity to wed, p and d, or date high numbered women.

    Nope. Incorrect.

    This is true for women, barring massive physical changes: you pretty much are where you are on the scale.

    Not true for guys. Most guys, at least in the demographic who post here, are perfectly capable of retooling themselves to the point where they can fuck such women.
    This may require a massive, difficult transformation, but it’s not impossible. Taking a female 5 and turning her into a 8-9 is impossible.

    So isn’t there potential that without this intense debate of women’s hotness you’d be happy with a six or lower?

    MOST men would be happy with a ‘6’ wife, provided that she has actual wifely qualities (see above). And doesn’t get fat.

    You have to keep two things in mind.

    (1) This is a PUA site. Although it has certainly become more and more of a political commentary site, it’s still fundamentally a PUA site. Therefore, the commenters are obviously going to be disproportionally skewed toward “I wanna hit it with hot chicks, and I won’t be happy unless I do”.

    (2) Let’s face it, the quality of American women sucks on average. It used to be “you know who the bad girls are”. Now it’s “you know who the good girls are”.
    Since that’s the case, there are good reasons for letting the 8/9/10s be the exclusive focus: if you’re gonna fuck sluts, may as well make it hot sluts.

    Like


  309. Epoxy says, “I may be seriously misinterpreting you, but it seems you’re claiming that most men look for “leadership qualities” in a wife.
    This is ludicrous.

    Most guys want sweet, nurturing, and domestic, not “queen bee” (which is in many ways the antithesis of those qualities).

    Correct me if I’ve misinterpreted.”

    There are queen bees, and wannabes. The domineering slut is a wannabe.

    The queen bee is the woman who walks into a room or down the street modestly dressed, and women who don’t know her hold their boyfriends and husbands a little closer. People around her either seek her approval or make strange overcompensating gestures.

    For some reason, she upsets any artificial hierarchy. Guys respect you more because you’re dating her. Doors open to you that were closed or uncertain before.

    The queen bee is seldom obvious in the Hollywoodian way. Yet people are drawn to her. If she’s been to a place once, the second time she goes, people remember her and want to be around her. You’ll get better service because people just want to see her smile.

    Natural alphas’ moms are quite often like this. They tend to seek these things out in a woman. It’s not “leadership qualities” in the way a man would have them. It would be described as something more…mystical, but it’s not really mystical.

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  310. Wow, I’ve never seen this blog before.

    You really need to look into getting some help for your mental health, I mean that seriously.

    Like


  311. Aoefe,

    Depends. As the only man here who regularly gets with women who are really non-conventional in appearance (and who gets accused of fetishism, sometimes by the women themselves) I find that the question is more or less a dead issue unless I actually want to torture my partner with the knowledge. I do feel weird about how hot looks often come with a personality that’s uninterested in mine, because of the whole dominance prerequisite thing, and how I’m overlooked sometimes solely because of my looks, and yes, I may be fundamentally unhappy in a wistful “grass is greener” sense, and be a hypocrite for hiding it from my partner, but I have also been fundamentally happy with unconventionally-attractive women. I suppose it’s a matter of temperament and also not treating people as means to an end.

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  312. Excellent response, bravo:)

    Like