The Dark Side Of Alpha

Pedro Espinoza, the illegal alien murderer of Jamiel Shaw, was dropped off at the killing location by his girlfriend:

A woman testified Wednesday that she drove the alleged killer of a high-school football star to the victim’s street at the time of the shooting and heard a gunshot after her friend got out the car to run an errand.

Yisenia Sanchez said she did not see her friend [editor’s note: by “friend”, she means a guy who has fucked her in the ass], Pedro Espinoza, 19, fire a gun or see whether anyone was shot, but said soon after Espinoza got out the car, a shot sounded, then he came running back in an agitated state.

I’m sure after he breathlessly relayed the details of his dirty deed to his secretly admiring girlfriend, she scolded him for his evil while her wet vagina belied the words coming out of her mouth. Later that night, Pedro got some, and shot a load into her happy face.

Here is a fact for those of you still laboring under the rapidly withering illusion that women are the fairer sex with superior moral guiding principles and emotional intelligence: There are many MANY MANY more young, cute women willing to fuck the likes of Pedro Espinoza, Alpha Killer, than the guy who avoids brushes with the law, dutifully goes to his 9 to 5 McJob, and saves money for the future purchase of a home to start a family.

This is a question for my female readers. What do you feel, at a gut level, when you know that more of your kind go for guys like this:

18th street gang coming soon to all the other street numbers.

18th street gang coming soon to all the other street numbers.

than for guys like this:

"maybe if i learned how to shoot computers instead of build them."

"maybe if i learned how to shoot computers instead of build them."

I can already hear the protestations to the contrary. “Yeah, but only low class girls go for cold-blooded killers and criminal filth like Espinoza.”

From a penis’s perspective, what is the difference between a low class young, cute girl and a high class young, cute girl?

Answer: Nothing.

Marriage and the attendant class considerations are end game, not start game. Sexual attraction must come first, and a woman’s social, economic, and educational status have nothing to do with that. A girl’s class is irrelevant to her ability to excite a man. For every thug complaining that all he bangs are whores as he facefucks his girlfriend and her sister, there are a hundred betas complaining that they can’t bang anything at all.

I’m glad to see men are reawakening to the reality of women’s depraved animal natures.





Comments


  1. “The Dark side of Alpha”?

    What does that make you, the shining beacon of alpha?

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  2. What do you feel, at a gut level, when you know that more of your kind go for guys like this:

    Ashamed and embarrassed.

    I call it rewarding bad behavior. If a man does not behave why should he get some. Ladies of the night, are whom men like Pedro are suppose to get their love from.

    Forgive me for saying this but neither Pedro nor any of the men in the second pic are very good looking. They could at lest become decent if they put a little effort in it
    .

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  3. God I wish all the women at places like Vassar and Radcliffe were forced to read this blog. I mean tied down like “A Clockwork Orange”, given intravaneous booze (to honest them up), have their eyes pryed open by mechanical device while visine was dropped in and MADE to read for food.

    Yes, yes……..I know. Im mean, cruel, wicked, unfeeling, selfish, wicked, etc, etc, etc, etc……

    The “bad boy” fucking phenomena does hyperdamage to the young black and latino community in particular—-and its all women’s fault. This little bitch fuckhole (and thats what they are…..FUCKHOLES), no doubt gripes to high heaven about there being “no good men” and will kvetch that still when her orange-jumpsuit-clad-anal-prober is sent to prison and guys dont want to raise (and pay for) his spawn that she has toddling behind her. She really caused it all in a perverse way. If he couldn’t get pussy BECAUSE of his shitty behavior, he’d change it. Since females reward his behavior, he indulges in it even more.

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  4. In the Amazonian hunter-gatherer group the Yanamamo, men who had killed more people, had more offspring. Probably something similar among whatever part of Central America this forebrainless slime oozed out of.

    At least he proves that Central Americans can assimilate to Western social values — from 1200 AD. We just have to wait 800 years, if we’re lucky, and we’ll all get along fine in this happy melting pot of a country.

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  5. But I’m sure his sisters make great authentic taquitos for us to enjoy, so I guess it all balances out.

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  6. great post! this is such a fucked up situation, mostly because, i think there’s a lot of truth in what you say here.

    i’m a beta, a very pissed-off beta. i see this reward-for-bad-behavior bullshit all around me.

    i especially liked your bit about “the reality of women’s depraved animal natures.” for the past year or two i’ve been telling myself over and over that 1) men are shit and 2) women aren’t much better, but they ARE better. i mean, look at who is the more violent (men), look at the one most people prefer to be around (women), and well…i guess this is my own script for trying to turn around some misogynistic thoughts i have, but i’m kind of unsure now.

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  7. and i agree 100% with z about the vassar/radcliffe girls being forced Clockwork Orange-style to read this blog. it’s funny how female laziness makes for a really poorly informed person.

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  8. roissy:

    Much of your analysis hinges on the hotness of the girlfriend. There are plenty of fat cholitas who are eager to buddy up with sociopathic thugs, but your argument would have more *oomph* if the chick was actually hot.

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  9. Let’s take this a step further. Since it needs to go there.

    As Chic Noir points out, the well-known Urban Core preference for thugs among Black women (google “Lauren London thugs” to see discussion of this) caused a near complete collapse of the Black Community in less than forty years.

    People forget, in 1965 R&B singers were writing and singing soulful paens to the women they loved, in the most romantic terms. Listen to any duet with Tammy Terrell and Marvin Gaye, and then compare any Jay Z video or one by say, Usher, on it’s treatment of women.

    Women rewarded thugs (even preppie Black Lawyers find educated Black women demanding thugs, and offer this as a reason for their preference for women of other races) and there was a race to the bottom for thuggy behavior.

    However, it’s not the Black community only, merely the canary in the coalmine. White women engage in this all the time, particularly suburban white women.

    Consider all the Fox News murdered young women, who chose badly thugs, and figured that somehow they’ d be immune from the thug consequences. Natalie Holloway goes off with dominant, thug-type Johann Van Der Sloop. Same with all these other women who figured that the thugs would never turn on them.

    Women’s problem is that they consistently overestimate their control of thugs, and underestimate the thugs ability to deal out violence to THEM. You see this in entertainment: Buffy the Vampire Slayer, History of Violence, Eastern Promises, etc. etc.

    Women have total freedom of choice, they largely use that to pursue varying degrees of testosterone (among White guys it’s not thug, but stupid-risk behavior like BASE jumping or White Water Kayaking, that indicate lots of testosterone risk plus money).

    Two results — we get dumber as smart guys don’t reproduce and the most aggressive men do (with future generations likely to be far more thuggy). Secondary result: the smart guys end up unattached to women and bitter about it.

    Women overestimate their beauty’s length, power, and ability to win over smart guys who are the “second” or third choice after the thugs.

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  10. chicnoir 2-

    Forgive me for saying this but neither Pedro nor any of the men in the second pic are very good looking. They could at lest become decent if they put a little effort in it

    Which is why your metric of looks first, then money, with game/edginess/toughness etc. following way down the list after compatibility and so on is such utter BS as applied to most women — that is how they really act — and probably is for you too, at least more than you admit.

    Now all women do look for some kind of balance. This thug’s chickas no doubt think he’s got money and is gonna have a lot of it. I’m also sure if you asked them they’d say he looked hot. Just not pretty.

    Yes balance that genuinely rings the strongest sexual attraction bell, or more the I want to be and stay with this guy long term bell, is different, but it’s always a blend and game/edginess/aggression/testosterone is always a part of it.

    Regardless of how much you’re in denial.

    Being a black girl, and probably determined to turn your back on the black thug type most of all, it’s no wonder that you would be in denial and that’s probably a good thing for you as well. There are sure heathier balances for your and any woman’s life than this guy’s.

    But he probably would pull at your p*ssy a whole lot more than you admit if you let yourself get close to him and alone with him — or better for you his black equivalent. So you don’t. Wisely.

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  11. I’ve long thought that the molls of gangsters, and so on and so forth, are massively more responsible for their crimes than Western culture EVER gives a thought to.

    They are even more directly responsible than just about ever charged. As in hide them, sometimes help them plan, are go betweens, sometimes seduce marks as part of schemes, do ancillary jobs as part of the heist, and so on.

    But mostly it’s the hot women, often more than one to a man and willing in this world like few other american ones to tolerate that (complainingly), that fuels the whole thing. That’s the whole point of the fast money. The fast women.

    Run of the mill whores by the way are TERRIBLE sex for run of the mill johns, especially in this most feminist of all countries (and in this regard we’ve been that way at least since the 1930s).

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  12. z said: If he couldn’t get pussy BECAUSE of his shitty behavior, he’d change it.

    I had a debate with a lesbian about this. Please don’t ask why I was fool enough to try to convince her that men will do any thing to get laid. I tried to explain to her how men are like the little dog in the circus that jumps threw(tp) the ring of fire.

    z are you blk or poc?

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  13. randy said:i’m a beta, a very pissed-off beta. i see this reward-for-bad-behavior bullshit all around me.

    but what do you look like*
    just curious

    * this will not become my slogan, I promise 🙂

    Peter-thick glorious pelt
    David-long acrylic nails and high heal shoes.
    chicnoir- but what do you look like

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  14. whiskey said: As Chic Noir points out, the well-known Urban Core preference for thugs among Black women

    Please put no lies in my mouth.

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  15. Numbers. Where are the numbers? Anecdotes abound. Where are the numbers?

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  16. 13 chic noir:

    but what do you look like*
    just curious

    I’ll show you mine if you show me yours…

    tupac_chopra @ yahoo[dot]com

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  17. on September 10, 2008 at 11:36 pm random passerby

    z:
    The “bad boy” fucking phenomena does hyperdamage to the young black and latino community in particular—-and its all women’s fault. This little bitch fuckhole (and thats what they are…..FUCKHOLES), no doubt gripes to high heaven about there being “no good men” and will kvetch that still when her orange-jumpsuit-clad-anal-prober is sent to prison and guys dont want to raise (and pay for) his spawn that she has toddling behind her. She really caused it all in a perverse way. If he couldn’t get pussy BECAUSE of his shitty behavior, he’d change it. Since females reward his behavior, he indulges in it even more.

    It’s entirely the men’s responsibility. If someone offers you a million dollars for commiting a crime, are you going to claim that it wasn’t your fault because someone was rewarding your behavior? If men are weak enough to be manipulated by women, then that’s their problem and their responsibility.

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  18. I chuckle when I see these kind of articles. Stimulation is the close cousin of status. If you engage in stimulating behavior the woman arouses, regardless of the moral nature of the stimulation.

    A few years ago I was watching Fox News and heard a brunette bubblehead say with a straight face she would never date a man who couldn’t kill another man. It was one of those great epiphany moments that showed me where men and sex are concerned the paleolithic programming is still running unmodified. They were trying to explain the whole Scott Peterson girl fan club thing.

    A long time ago a guy picked a fight with me in a dive bar. Bad move at the time, as I was built and very (very…) strong. I pounded him flat and left him bleeding on the sidewalk. A woman walked over afterwards, told me she had seen the whole thing and shamelessly broadcast availability. 40 minutes later we were at my place fucking like it was the end of the world and her whole arousal state lasted for hours.

    It’s a primal thing that trips up women. In this day and age the kill behavior is immoral, but it’s wired deep in there and women that have not sublimated their paleolithic programming are so vulnerable. In paleolithic times, seeking sex with the killer male was relative safeness than being out in the cold and raped by the other males.

    Then again, if someone forgets to use their consciousness between stimulus and response, they deserve what happens them. Did they arrest the girlfriend as an accessory after the fact?

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  19. dougjnn- I must be attracted to the man before we can move from there. I am sorry if this angers you, but it is the truth. I can see a great personality, witty conversationalist, high iq across the room.

    I just can’t do warpig. Warpig is a man who just don’t give a darn, wears dirty socks, does not cut his hair or his toenails, and refuses to go to the dentist until he needs a tooth pulled.

    btw, I mentioned that my ideal is Very good looking, wealth, good person etc… and I don’t do gamers cause I think they are abusive.
    I also mentioned that I will most likely do what most human beings do and that is settle. Although, I don’t want children of my own, and I am not to hot on marriage either.

    You have an idea of the sort of temperament you would want in your woman too. I bet you would prefer that your wife have the shell of a 10.

    But he probably would pull at your p*ssy a whole lot more than you admit if you let yourself get close to him and alone with him — or better for you his black equivalent. So you don’t. Wisely

    No, pardon me for being crude but giving it a very nice ton8gue bath would pull at my strings. There are plenty of thugs and bad boys who don’t have a clue about how to please a woman, and do nothing but beat a woman’s body up in B*d.

    Having a man who can spoil you is nice but wrestling with other women for his heart is not. Having a man who lives to see you smile and does all he can to make you happy is better than anything in the world.

    I’ve been around thugs because I grew up in that type of neighborhood.

    *waits for the offensive comments to roll in*
    If you can smack a woman than you are a thug -end of story.

    When are attracted to thugs and bad boys for the same reason they are attracted to tall men. Women feel that they offer more protection and won’t run when things go bad.

    the guy with the glasses looks as if he would run and leave his girlfriend, if the two where approached by muggers in a dark alley.

    Pedro looks like he protect his girlfriend or at the very least put up a fight so the girlfriend can get away.

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  20. *women are attracted to*

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  21. tupac- if you look at some of the earlier posts, you will find my pic to the right of my comments.

    El Guapo saidA few years ago I was watching Fox News and heard a brunette bubblehead say with a straight face she would never date a man who couldn’t kill another man

    Would she date a solider or police man?

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  22. Actually, El Guapo, that’s not true (women’s desire for aggression hard-wired as a result of evolution).

    Let’s replay that incident as a hunter-gatherer. Guy picks a fight with you, you lay him out, his cousin sticks a spear in your back while you’re not looking (and he may be a “weakling.”) Or maybe he does it to both you and your hook-up (in Paleolithic, hunter-gatherer times).

    Both modern hunter-gatherer societies and archaeological evidence of Paleolithic ones show a high degree of violence, with women and children getting it in the neck as much as anyone else. The “Iceman” in the Alps was after all shot in the back with arrows.

    The dominant feature of survival in hunter-gatherer groups (default human organization from say 50K-11K years ago) was kin-clan solidarity. Seen writ in Iraq and Afghanistan and other places to this day.

    Women take advantage of the fact that there is no serious comeback for laying a guy out in a bar, it’s just a testosterone marker. In Paleolithic times guys with too much testosterone got dead fairly quickly. Even the BEST hunter can come up blank and need someone to share.

    Chic — the same thug can CAUSE trouble likely to hurt the woman. That’s the downside that women discount.

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  23. the same thug can CAUSE trouble likely to hurt the woman. That’s the downside that women discount

    Not can but will. It’s only a matter of time.

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  24. From 17:

    “It’s entirely the men’s responsibility. If someone offers you a million dollars for commiting a crime, are you going to claim that it wasn’t your fault because someone was rewarding your behavior? If men are weak enough to be manipulated by women, then that’s their problem and their responsibility.”

    Wrong!

    This is the responsibility of both parties. I could generalize your argument to “If I hire a hit man for a million bucks to off an ex-girlfriend, it’s his fault that he accepted the money and killed her, not mine. I am innocent.”

    And that’s clearly total fucking bullshit.

    Don’t post shit like this and waste our time.

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  25. on September 11, 2008 at 12:49 am random passerby

    In your example it [i]is[/i] the hitman’s fault for accepting the money, so I don’t see what your point is supposed to be. You’re simply blaming other people for your own inability to keep your shit together.

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  26. If you want to blame women for the violence in certain ethnic subcultures, you might start with the ones who prefer to have children on their own rather than with a man. That, to me, is the real original sin in ghetto culture, and it was the perverse but well-intentioned incentives offered by the government that made it look like a reasonable reproductive strategy. There wasn’t nearly the level of violence in the black community in the mid-1960s that there was later, e.g. in the late 1980s, if I’ve understood the statistics correctly.

    Anyway, that was the thin end of the wedge that helped to create the ultra-violent ghetto culture and eventually ensured that thugs were the only kind of men available to most of these women. Plus, there are drugs, which were also rampant for a long time (still?), and which tend to warp everyone’s judgment. The women I know who choose the most unstable and violence-prone men are usually fatherless and addiction-prone themselves.

    There are many middle-class, nice-girl exceptions to this rule, but they tend to be naive, self-deceiving about their ability to help the “disadvantaged”, and likely to fall for men’s hard-luck stories. Most dangerous men do a very nice line in pathetic hard-luck stories, stories which other men never hear because they’d see through them in a minute.

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  27. @25:

    No, you placed total and absolute moral culpability for the murder on the hitman in your first comment. Again, is the man who offered the million dollars innocent of the crime or is he just as guilty?

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  28. @25

    My point is that in your initial post, you said it was the man’s fault for behaving that way ONLY.

    Well yes, it is his fault, but it’s not ONLY his fault.

    There’s a fucking reason we have criminal statutes like being an accomplice to a crime, or why paying a hit man to off someone is illegal.

    Very, very, very, very, very rarely in life is something one person’s fault. It’s almost always a combination of people being stupid pigfuckers that leads to asinine or criminal behavior.

    Look at your original quote again. “…entirely the men’s responsibility…”

    No, it’s fucking not. Multiple parties are at fault.

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  29. on September 11, 2008 at 1:09 am random passerby

    I’m not talking about legal responsibility, I’m talking about moral responsibility.

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  30. I wanted to comment, but for some reason – all I can think of right now are the lyrics to The Notorious B.I.G.’s Hypnotize.

    Maybe it’s some kind of Pavlovian response to something in the article…

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  31. @29

    So, just to be clear, you see nothing morally wrong with offering someone a million dollars to murder someone?

    Wow.

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  32. on September 11, 2008 at 1:15 am random passerby

    No, I’m saying that if you murder someone for money then it’s your fault. “My behavior was rewarded with money by that other guy” is not a valid defense, and it’s right up there with “but your honor, I just had to rape her because she was dressed in a provocative manner.”

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  33. So the individual who offered a hitman a million dollars has no moral responsibility for the subsequent murder carried out by his hired assassin?

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  34. Never mind.

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  35. on September 11, 2008 at 1:22 am random passerby

    Both parties are responsible, but independent of each other. The client is responsible for arranging the murder, and the murderer is responsible for the murder. They both made their decisions on their own.

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  36. clio- When crack hit poor blk neighborhoods in 1984, crime rates skyrocketed. Crack cocaine turns people into zombies who will do anything, and I mean anything for a hit.

    Most crack addicts are older, because very few young in the ghetto experiment with hard drugs in their youth. Hard drug use is not looked upon highly or seen as being cool in the ghetto. This is why you hear some blk people saying the most horrible things about crack heads and heroin addicts who nod off. They only move on to hard drugs once they become hopeless and feel as if there lives are meaningless.

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  37. In that case, I fully stand by my initial comments stating you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

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  38. on September 11, 2008 at 1:26 am random passerby

    Argument of the year.

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  39. Alias Clio–

    If you want to blame women for the violence in certain ethnic subcultures

    No one’s saying it’s all on the females but they play a big roll too. Contrast with the Jewish community in say NY from 1900 to 1940 when tons of them had no money and were living in poor ghettos. Yeah some did go into organized crime, often soon in Italian crime syndicates either as shylocks (loan sharks) or often soon as the brains behind certain families. Some rose higher. Meyer Lansky, others. But mostly no. Small numbers and very few foot solders. I think it was hard to get a good jewish girl in that line of work. No really. I’m serious. As well Jews were pretty sure that if they followed their traditional paths, the professions, retail, international trade where their international connections gave them a big edge (diamonds, furs, etc.), finance, the universities — they would soon do well in this mostly open to all land — and were right.

    Now Jewish involvement in white collar crime of various sorts is another matter….

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  40. What would Brian Boitano do, if he were here right now ?

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  41. Chic noir says: Most crack addicts are older, because very few young in the ghetto experiment with hard drugs in their youth. Hard drug use is not looked upon highly or seen as being cool in the ghetto. This is why you hear some blk people saying the most horrible things about crack heads and heroin addicts who nod off. They only move on to hard drugs once they become hopeless and feel as if there lives are meaningless.

    Interesting, Chic. And sad. Aren’t there many young ghetto men who make money from selling drugs, though – or have I been watching too much television? And isn’t that where some of the violence is at its worst?

    Dougjnn, I take your point, but you’ve in a sense conceded mine in mentioning that Jews had a long tradition of using their brains to succeed lawfully in society. Black Americans had to cope first with slavery and then segregation. Some coped well with the latter and managed to make good lives for themselves, and were well-placed to advance when segregation was removed.

    But isn’t it true that many of this group started out with special advantages? Some had fairer skin and perhaps white fathers who were willing to help them out; some came from families whose “masters” in the days of slavery had encouraged or at least permitted them to be educated and had a tradition of being teachers in the black community. Poor rural black people, or those among them who moved north to get unskilled jobs in industry had a much harder time, esp. when the industries began to shut down. They didn’t have much of a tradition to inspire them to seek education, either – probably in their communities they had encountered few black people who had done so.

    I’m not trying to say that this history justifies any present-day criminality. Nor do I think that the methods by which black or white American society has tried to solve these problems seem to have worked very well. But it’s only fair to remember that some people carry bigger burdens than others.

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  42. Yisenia Sanchez is scarcely starting a new trend in being drawn to a man facing serious criminal charges. For decades, men serving long prison terms, even those on death row, have routinely gotten marriage proposals from women – in most cases, women they didn’t even know.

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  43. @22

    Uh no — the paleolithic age starts some 2.6 million years ago.

    And long before your romanticized view of clan-kinship cooperation became a reality amongst the human race, in the 2.55 million years prior to your reference dates, women ran for cover with the strongest because it was better for them. They still run for cover with the strongest regardless of their rationalizations for justifying their extreme behavior.

    I guarantee you that in 1 million bc nobody gave a rat’s ass that the guy killed someone except to place him higher in the hierarchy.

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  44. There are many MANY MANY more young, cute women willing to fuck the likes of Pedro Espinoza, Alpha Killer, than the guy who avoids brushes with the law, dutifully goes to his 9 to 5 McJob, and saves money for the future purchase of a home to start a family.

    This is a question for my female readers. What do you feel, at a gut level, when you know that more of your kind go for guys like this:

    Roissy,

    This IS the raison d’etre of the singularitarians: we may be uber-nerdy BUT at the same time we recognize there is a deep disconnect in our world between human nature and a moral world.

    Fantastic Post

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  45. If women were especially attracted to violent men, there would be much much more violence than there is. We are very peaceable people, we moderns, and even our inner cities are calm compared to some of those tribal edens the utopians among us fantasize about and which never existed.

    What percentage of Americans are murdered each year? How many of those murders have anything to do with impressing women? A lot more guys work hard at grooming themselves than at becoming some stone cold killer to impress the ladies.

    The evidence indicates not that women are especially attracted to high-T men, but rather to men with variable T levels: they’re tough and standup when needed and soft and protective and gentle when that’s called for.

    Roissy talks about women’s pussies flowering in response to some murderer. Sure, some do. But so do they when they see a strong man cradling a baby. I’m not kidding by the way: the stronger the man, the greater the turn-on at the sight of him holding a sleeping infant in his big strong arms.

    Women are turned on by lots of stuff. But as (whiskey? dougjnn? UL? Sorry) said, women like to think their sexual power controls men far more than it actually does. Men do kill one another a lot, but it’s usually for man-to-man reasons.

    Women have almost no power in our society (or any other). It’s the inevitability of patriarchy. Whatever power they do have is granted them by men. And can be taken away at any time. Patriarchy’s a bitch for the bitches.

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  46. The problem PatrickH (@45) is that modernism is recent. And I agree that our relative peacefulness is a good thing. But again, a very recent development. I find it a good portent that as our ability to wreak unthinkable violence on masses has increased, our willingness to do so declines.

    The “pussy flowering” effect for murder and mayhem may be a general effect in that almost every woman is susceptible to it, but right now seems to be relegated to the lower fifth of the bell-curve of human performance, those with poor impulse control.

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  47. @ 36 Chic Noir

    A lot of those crack users started their use back when they were younger, and they aged terribly into its use. Yet, you’re right about how crack users were ridiculed because of their deep dependence on the drug. Most crack users met the stereotype of the broken crackhead who would do *anything* for their next hit. Even my nephew who grew up nearly 5 years after crack died down will point out sleeping homeless people as loser crackheads.

    The key in the ghetto is to avoid looking poor, and being a drug addict simply gets in the way of that.

    Aren’t there many young ghetto men who make money from selling drugs, though

    Drug dealing isn’t a lucrative career, but compared to the work available to unskilled young black men sans college education, it’s better than nothing or paying money into child support for out of wedlock children. It’s also lucrative when if one believes that they’ll become the high end drug dealer selling large amounts of cocaine making millions in untaxed earnings.

    As a faux-economist and lazy urban studies major, I’m still unable to understand why black women chose welfare in crappy projects over chasing after and marrying the black men that did have jobs that paid better than welfare.

    some came from families whose “masters” in the days of slavery had encouraged or at least permitted them to be educated and had a tradition of being teachers in the black community

    House slaves versus field slaves, and to a lesser extent, Northern slaves versus Southern slaves. Supposedly, when the wave of Southern blacks first moved to the North, Northern blacks were rather shocked at their behaviours, and the community was essentially overwhelmed by the larger influx of Southern blacks who were mostly fields slaves.

    Poor rural black people, or those among them who moved north to get unskilled jobs in industry had a much harder time, esp. when the industries began to shut down.

    My pet theory has generally been that the first wave of industrial downsizings in the 1960s combined with returning Vietnam veterans who were addicted to drugs or damaged by PTSD along with the black middle class fleeing traditional black areas created the hardcore ghettos where only the poorest of the poor were left.

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  48. alias clio 41–

    Yes, I agree with all that you said in response. As well know that I’m well aware my “point” or argument would have been made stronger by stopping with “nice jewish girl” and I’m serious. I put the rest in because unless I’m pissed off at someone, I don’t go around trying to win arguments on comment threads, etc., but rather to get at the truth, and debate to help others see what I think it is — and yes, learn what they can teach me as well, including by changing my mind on something sometimes.

    Of course civil rights had to happen. I’m even prepared to say that AA needed to happen as a kick start. It should have been phased out by now. The test cannot be “when blacks achieve parity” because maybe they never will. When will Catholics achieve income parity with Jews in the US? For that matter, when will Wasp’s?

    It’s the culture of victimology which is such a problem, or one of them. It’s continuation at any rate, long after the sixties and 70s. It prevents attention to other actually far more compelling reasons for lagging achievement, many of which something can be done about.

    Cosby says some wise things. Actually the whole conservative black intellectual group, from Sowell to Whorter to many others keep saying good and useful things but it all just wafts way, never picked up and taken seriously by the mainstream leftist oriented media or educational establishments. For the most part. Rare exceptions which also just stay burried.

    But… I really don’t want to get into a full blown on this topic on this forum. Not the place for it.

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  49. Sorry for diverting the thread, dougjnn. It’s hard not to sometimes when Roissy publishes posts that are about women but have very broad implications.

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  50. on September 11, 2008 at 4:06 am Comment_Good_Intentions

    ****
    That, to me, is the real original sin in ghetto culture, and it was the perverse but well-intentioned incentives offered by the government that made it look like a reasonable reproductive strategy.
    ****
    Clio, well-intentioned? Well, intentioned yes. Definitely intentioned. A government order that to recieve money from the government the father must leave.

    And this resulted in the father leaving.

    Can you IMAGINE how that could happen? Can you use your imagination to concieve of the complex chain of events where mandating a behaviour as required to recieve money causes the behaviour?

    It’s a riddle. An engima as it were.

    What’s really odd is that some black men decided the government was out to get them after losing their children to this policy.

    Again we are left with a powerful and complicated enigma as to why a black man would consider this an attack on blacks.

    No damage inflicted, no reasonable chain of events, no victim, no criminal, just mad conspiracy ravings.

    And yet some black men considered it an attack. Whatever “it” was, and quite frankly I’ve forgotten myself.

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  51. on September 11, 2008 at 4:24 am Comment_Not_So_Much

    ****
    I guarantee you that in 1 million bc nobody gave a rat’s ass that the guy killed someone except to place him higher in the hierarchy.
    ****
    Perhaps not.

    “No –”

    ” — offer me money –”

    ” — yes –”

    ” — power too — promise me that –”

    “– all that I have and more please –”

    “– offer me everything I ask for –”

    “– anything you want –”

    “I WANT MY FATHER BACK, YOU SON-OF- A-BITCH!”

    Like


  52. on September 11, 2008 at 4:35 am Days of Broken Arrows

    I see the discussion has alreayd gotten into civil rights, minorities, etc.

    Let me throw this out there: Religious women are the first to want to screw killers and bad boys under the pretense of wanting to “save” them.

    They just pretend to “save” them, but what they really want is to fuck them. This is also true when it comes to clergy.

    Remember that movie, “Dead Man Walking,” when you had sister Preljean attending to the Sean Penn character, who was gonna be put to death? This was not the nun helping anyone — if she wanted to help, she would be feeding kids. This was sexual perversion.

    If anyone wants a musical explanation of this, check out the old country song “The Little Lady Preacher” by Tom T. Hall.

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  53. Broken Arrows, does this apply to women trying to fix broken, depressed sad men who have “potential”, or this is strictly for bad boys?

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  54. Not necessarily religious women as such, DoBA. I think ultra-liberal women are prone to this mistake too, perhaps more so, and they aren’t that likely to be religious. And I’d avoid using the word “pretense” to describe this, because the women who do this kind of thing are usually convinced that they’re doing it for the most disinterested motives.

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  55. “This is a question for my female readers. What do you feel, at a gut level, when you know that more of your kind go for guys like this:”

    More good men for me!

    Lookswise, the thug is a 7, the guy with the glasses in the center is a 4, he has feminine features and looks awkward, and the curly haired guy on the left is a 6, just a regular, nice normal guy.

    Thugs are a turnoff to me for various reasons. Not being able to win a decent income and reasonable succes with the girls while playing by the rules tells me a guy is a loser. Which puts him on equal footing with Centerguy. Then there is the prolethingy. Thuggy probably uses bad grammar which is an instant panty dryer. What on earth would we have in common anyway? Lastly, a man cannot provide while in jail. A girl would have to be really stupid to sleep with him.

    In the meantime, Lefty can go to the gym and a good barber and become a 7 in looks. Check out what 4 months of serious gym time can do: http://www.dutchbodybuilding.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=86019
    After getting his degree in computer science, he makes a decent provider. Plus he will like playing board games and discussing cool theories.

    The girl in the center will pick him, she looks like a smart girl. If Centerguy gets realistic like DA did, he will ask the girl on the right out.

    I hear what you are saying about men being happy to fuck dumb/low class women. It would be truly lovely if all of them cleaned up their acts and stopped sleeping with thugs. Unfortunately the other women do not have any influence on their actions.
    Middle class women don’t really ever meet low class women or have them as friends. The closest thing we have are friends who have slept with a white collar cheater/player guy, but they won’t listen to us unless they have a broken heart.

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  56. Roissy,
    Haven’t read the other comments, but lower-class rhetoric, ebonics, etc., are a major turnoff and often go with being lower class.

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  57. Roissy,

    This IS the raison d’etre of the singularitarians: we may be uber-nerdy BUT at the same time we recognize there is a deep disconnect in our world between human nature and a moral world.

    Except morality is a human, conceptual construct that doesn’t objectively exist? Sorry, Ray Kurzweil is just manufacturing religion for atheists who aren’t comfortable with light nihilism.

    Like


  58. David Alexander 47–

    As a faux-economist and lazy urban studies major, I’m still unable to understand why black women chose welfare in crappy projects over chasing after and marrying the black men that did have jobs that paid better than welfare.

    The way it really works as this. Black girl’s got a player boyfriend. He’s dealing coke say, low level but heading up, he says. They do some. They party. She’s what 17-18. Maybe 16. Gets preggers. He says he’ll be there help her. She wants the baby anyway. But she “doesn’t know who the father is” and gets welfare. He kicks in some $$ time to time. Then he maybe flirts with another girl, screws her on the sneak tip. Both of them. Then he goes to jail for a while, a few months say, for limited amount of possession (or some bs charge, it’s about this third so they give him time this time. Another bf starts screwing her. He gets out and hears. Not surprised but pissed. He stops giving any money. Then two years later he thinks damn I’ve got a son. I got to go visit him. He gets together some money, or some presents, and goes to see her. She lets him see his son, but says you want to keep seeing him, help out. He does, off and on. meanwhile she has another kid, different dad. Same general story. She goes to parties, screws around with hot guys sometimes, figures she’s gonna snatch one.

    She doesn’t want to give up her (not so often but sometimes) fast life for a boring inch ahead one with a guy that doesn’t thrill her ’cause he isn’t bad.

    Then there are the dumb girls who don’t have guys who want them as gf but some will pump them once and awhile and they get preggers and welfare. And so on.

    I had a hot PuertorRicania gf for awhile who had family in one of the NYC PR ghettos. Same basic story as with blacks. That’s how I know the inside scope.

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  59. DA 58–

    What I’m saying net net is that the welfare mom can fuck around with hot guys and sorta hot guys and be a party slut, while the wife of a guy with a not very good job can’t — and be at all sure of keeping her husband’s support. (Of course now she can just fuck with him like she does the gov’t and he’ll have to pay just like the gov’t cause they’ll make him, acutally make him pay the gov’t cause he can’t pay her as much as the gov’t welfare does. Which is male indentured servitude.

    [Instead this kind of slut should have to stave or make it on her own. He baby can be taken from her if she can’t support it. But that’s sure not how it works now.]

    Now take away the government welfare tit for babies without fathers willing to reliably support them, and all this changes.

    But it would take at least one generation of lurid hardship and heartbreak for less than brilliant soon to be welfare moms and their surrounding community of moms and dads and the churches etc. to re-establish marriage and husband based rather than primarily government family support. Well, welfare reform was in the right direction at least.

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  60. [b]”It’s entirely the men’s responsibility.” If someone offers you a million dollars for commiting a crime, are you going to claim that it wasn’t your fault because someone was rewarding your behavior? If men are weak enough to be manipulated by women, then that’s their problem and their responsibility. [emphasis mine] – random retard [/b]

    Note that your original position was that all the blame rested on men. This is what people were taking issue with. You later retreated to a much more modest position as follows:

    [b] I’m saying that if you murder someone for money then it’s your fault. [/b]

    Let’s assume that Roissy is correct in stating that women do in fact reward violent thug behavior. If this is true, here’s why women shoulder a large part of the blame for rewarding bad ‘thug’ behavior:

    Suppose half of all males refused to act like thugs to impress women. In only a few generations, those males would cease to exist and since they didn’t get the reward (i.e., sex) would have failed to pass on their genes. In this scenario, the world be populated by twice as many thugs.

    This is why your ‘kill somebody for a million dollars’ analogy is flawed. A closer comparison would be ‘kill somebody or you fail to reproduce.’

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  61. Apologies for being noob and don’t know how to make things bold.

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  62. 54 alias clio —

    Not necessarily religious women as such, DoBA. I think ultra-liberal women are prone to this mistake too, perhaps more so, and they aren’t that likely to be religious.

    Committed leftism is just like a religion in very many ways. Particularly if it’s atheist leftism, then it’s a “monotheism” and that much more powerful in it’s hold. It’s more like a form of Protestantism though, since there’s no Pope or single Church hierarchy, rather a number of authorities, and various sacred texts, all sharing a broadly similar creed, though with lots of incessant internicine warfare over mininutae — though not see as such by the believers.

    Taboos (staying on the good side of the constellation of which and knowing the always somewhat readjusting boundary line is sometimes called political correctness) are much used to prevent apostasy, even among the less than committed, or at least to prevent them from having any wide public influence.

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  63. Ferox Obscurus 28 —

    Very, very, very, very, very rarely in life is something one person’s fault. It’s almost always a combination of people being stupid pigfuckers that leads to asinine or criminal behavior.

    Asinine rubbish. Reflect much before you make bold pronouncements, do you?

    Guy robs a convenience store at gun point. [Robbery all his fault]. Customer enters store, not seeing the robbery in progress. Gunman nervous twists to face entering customer, tells him to come in, stand in the corner and shut up. Employee enters store from side, storeroom door. Guy at register motions him to go back out the door. Gunman, who’s hopped up on crank to neve himself for the heist thinks register guy is going for a gun and shoots. Counter guy is wounded, bleeding badly. Gunman grabs money, leaves. 911 arrives too late, register guy has bled out.

    Who’s fault but one? Do you expect lack of perfection and call it someone else’s partial guilt in the death?

    Endless examples could be constructed or taken from crime blotters.

    You stupid idiot.

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  64. @58/59 dougjnn

    One could argue that the boring guy offers stability and more money than dealing with a drug dealer, but as you said, it’s missing the bad boy factor. Besides, if she wanted money, she would have worked on her own and not had kids in the first place. Even with our limited welfare program when compared to the pre-welfare reform regime, it makes some sense to get pregnant and leave what ever antagonistic relationship exists at home with mom and have your own place to live at 18 or so that’s subsidized with food stamps and Section 8.

    Admittedly, from the anecdotal evidence that I’ve heard about black relationships, it seems that most black couples don’t see themselves as long-term potential partners. Instead, they sometimes come across more as sex/lust fueled relationships that really don’t go anywhere. In the ghetto, most of the women don’t see the men as marriageable material, and the same is true for the men in regards to the women, but everybody’s a potential long-term fuckbuddy. It may be attributed to what you said earlier, but it may also be attributed to the fact that ghetto women seem more likely to hold out for the perfect partner who just doesn’t exist in the milieu. The working class and middle class black men with good jobs have much better choices for women, but the ghetto black men are just aren’t long-term material given their lack of employment (and education) along with potential for criminality and violence.

    Interestingly, when I talk with my niece and nephew, they say children come *before* marriage since they’re only exposed to that lifestyle in their respective communities. When I illustrate the other way around, they say that it makes no sense which is laughable to me since I grew up with both parents at home and married two years before my birth. Once I explained to my nephew the value of marriage (no baby mamma’s drama, shared living costs, no “Maury Povich” scenarios), it started to make some sense to him.

    BTW, fun fact, black middle class birthrates are LOWER than their white middle class counterparts…

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  65. Well, welfare reform was in the right direction at least.

    The funny part about welfare reform is that while birth rates declined for blacks, the number of births out of wedlock increased, IIRC. Even if we took away welfare, it still doesn’t take away the allure of the drug dealer since his potential earnings are still greater than what his non-dealing counterparts in the ghetto can offer. Even in the working class portion of the black community, look at how many single moms exist despite having good jobs…

    If you want end out-of-wedlock births in this sector of the community, you’ll need to get the men into stable working class jobs that pay sustainable wages, and you’ll need to make birth control and abortions easier to obtain, especially in the South where a sizable chunk of the US black population lives. Also, minimum work requirements before welfare prevent women from just transitioning off parents to welfare, and benefits that do not increase with additional children discourages further pregnancies. Plus, you’ll need a way for young black women to find an alternative means of feeling loved and wanted other than their babies…

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  66. Clio — I’m not convinced it’s merely welfare. If you look at upper class Britain, a lot of wealthy women like Minnie Driver, heir to a multi-billion dollar fortune (even wealthier than Julie Louise Dreyfuss if you can believe that) and wealthy in her own right, choose to have kids on their own. It’s a matter of preference.

    El Guapo — Early Modern Humans (behaviorally, with such things as jewelry, burial of the dead, artistic figurines, etc.) date back to around 50K years ago. Physically modern humans only 100K. I would not look at Homo Errectus for many clues about modern humans. Different species.

    In fact, given the well-known genetic bottleneck associated with the Tambora erruptions (only around 2K out of a population estimated at 2.5 million survived) I would argue exactly the opposite. That tribal hunter-gatherers provide the best clues to modern human behavior. After all, what DISTINGUISHES humans from other hominids are two things: tool making, and the complex nature of relationships. [Even among chimps, revenge for hurts given to family members is notable, btw.]

    David Alexander — the pay for a drug dealer excepting the highest, is actually LESS than working at an entry level at McDonalds. LESS. However, even the lowest thug can attract women in the Urban Black neighborhood. Not so the wealthier McDonald’s worker. Why do women chase after thugs in the projects? It’s the testosterone.

    Very few Blacks actually served in the Military, much less Vietnam, in the 1960’s, and that pattern holds today. Most of the casualties, then as now, were White, mostly from the South and Midwest. That has been true of almost every war fought by the US. So your theory does not hold up. Far more likely, macho posturing ala Malcolm X against “the Man” got young Black Men sex, so that insured a race to the bottom for the thuggiest thug behavior. As each sought to outcompete the other for title of baddest of the bad.

    White middle/upper class women pursue those kinds of guys too, but social taboos keep macho posturing into moneyed pursuits of testosterone. Instead shooting some guy, it’s death-courting BASE jumping, or Extreme White Water Kayaking, or basically any “Extreme” sport which signals both money (and lots of it) to engage in the sport and testosterone. In Jane Austen’s Pride and Prejudice, Lizzie’s sisters are agog at the military men in the local regiment (mustered out to respond to a possible French invasion, the militia spent most of their time drinking and riding and gambling). Even though most of the “officers” have the marriage prospects of a turkey at Thanksgiving (lack money, often drunk, etc.).

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  67. Chic noir:

    “I also mentioned that I will most likely do what most human beings do and that is settle. Although, I don’t want children of my own, and I am not to hot on marriage either.”

    That’s sad. I hope you change your mind some day. (Being race conscious and all, you do realize that if you have children of your own, you’re likely to improve your race and humanity as a whole.)

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  68. “White middle/upper class women pursue those kinds of guys too, but social taboos keep macho posturing into moneyed pursuits of testosterone. Instead shooting some guy, it’s death-courting BASE jumping, or Extreme White Water Kayaking, or basically any “Extreme” sport which signals both money (and lots of it) to engage in the sport and testosterone. ”

    I think it would not be a bad idea if more men in general pursues testosterone boosting activities. Maybe not the superdangerous things, but the somewhat safer versions of extreme sports, faraway travel and even martial arts. The risk of serious injury on those are pretty low, other people don’t get hurt and you can show off your courage. Testosterone is what makes a man a man. Erasing it is not the answer to society’s ills. There are some good uses for testosterone in society, or else we would not see that men with the same education advance more in their career than women. Testosterone gives them the drive to compete, to achieve and to win. I don’t believe it is worthwhile to strive for a society where both sexes are women.

    That said. I think Thuggy in the above picture would still have a girlfriend if he worked at McDonalds, as long as he is did work at the lowest level. Centerguy would not have a girlfriend even if he was a thug. Lefty would get enough mileage out of Jiu Jitsu. Which is also pretty cheap. And a lot of guys get years of mileage out of a handful of incidences of extreme sports trips.

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  69. Roissy, you seem to be getting more anti-woman as your blog progresses. The Game can really bring about an anti-female attitude as you get more into it, beginning with the discovery of how fickle and ruled-by-emotion women are, ie. how much they, by the male definition – LIE ALL THE TIME, then the astonishing willingness of women to cheat if your game is tight enough (& not even tell you they’re cheating), and then their preference for these brutes… Another aspect I’m increasingly seeing – WOMEN ARE PITTILESS ABOUT BETAS.

    Most gamers who run the routine “murder, marry, shag” quickly realise this. For those who don’t, you and the girl point at various people around the bar and state whether you would murder them, marry them, or shag them.

    Sometimes I point at wallflowers and guys with no game. I normally just feel bad for them, there-but-for-the-grace-of-god and so forth, me a year ago, he just needs to learn… but women_are_brutal. Murder of course, but they embellish it further with unflattering observations on their penis size, acne, relationship history, masturbation habits… the vitriolic hate they have for these guys, it’s scary. If a couple of alphas walked in and started ripping on the betas, women would join in.

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  70. It seems to me that the heavier one relies on game to get women, the more depraved the women one gets tend to be characterwise. So, maybe being a serious player really causes negative views on women to self-reinforce. If the definition of a quality woman includes brains and integrity, the implication is that she won’t give the time of day to a lying scumbag who treats other people like trash.

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  71. on September 11, 2008 at 1:18 pm Marcus Halberstam

    From a penis’s perspective, what is the difference between a low class young, cute girl and a high class young, cute girl?

    VD?

    Seriously, I am a guy most people would describe as “high testosterone” by looking at me. I have no desire to sleep with or associate with low-class women. I don’t care how attractive they may be physically, my attraction to them is weak at best. Even if I was attracted to them, I wouldn’t give them the satisfaction of fucking me.

    The idea that females are breeding more violence into our culture is silly. Per capita, the world is more peaceful than its ever been and only getting more so. If 1% of women are attracted to murderers, and 0.1% of men are murderers, then those men are going to be swimming in chicks. They’ve got a 10:1 ratio on their side, but thats no indication whatsoever that women in general are attracted to murdering thugs.

    Similarly, only a small percentage of men can be “alpha” (by the very definition of the term). If 20% of women are attracted to alpha-males, those guys are also swimming in pussy. Attempting to pass judgments on all of female nature based on their attraction to alpha males would be an extreme example of a bad selection bias. Put another way, if you are unhappy with the sort of women your “game” is attracting, why not change your game?

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  72. Need not to discuss about this. Read on…
    International serial killer Charles Sobhraj (64) engaged to 20 year Nepali girl..http://www.cjreport.com/pictures/4442.

    Now that is the height of it all.

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  73. Whiskey, I know it’s not just welfare, and I know that single-motherhood exists outside the black ghetto and the English council-house. Some of the reasons for it are the same in both rich and poor communities (the decline of respect for authority and tradition, the decline of religious observation), and some are quite different. Feminism and the wish to be entirely independent of husbandly control has had something to do with it among middle- and upper-middle-class women. Some of the consequences are the same among both the rich and the poor: relationships between men and women become more casual, and neither sex looks appealing as marriage partners to the other. Strange paradox: demand for “quality” in partners goes up, as the number of fresh, undamaged, potential spouses goes down.

    But to state the obvious: the rich can afford things that the poor can’t. From gambling to addiction to sleeping around, the well-off are cushioned from the consequences of their actions to a great degree (though not indefinitely). So the social impact of this behaviour has been less severe among the well-to-do than the poor. Plus, there’s the fact that decent middle-class jobs pay more than welfare or minimum wage jobs, so that there was and is less incentive for the majority of young middle-class women to give up on husbands, or careers of their own, altogether, in order to have babies. And then, too, middle-class unmarried mothers usually live with their children’s fathers for at least a few years, creating a bond. Result of all this is that you don’t find entire communities of middle-class people completely bereft of adult males in the home, as you do in the ghettos or council-house communities, so that even those children who are fatherless still have some male “role models” of responsibility and good sense.

    Clio

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  74. on September 11, 2008 at 1:43 pm yourfavoritewritersfavoritewriter

    the dark side of alpha, this is the classic case of a higher beta hating on a true alpha, pedro wanted to be an alpha but lacked the physical and mental attributes, the best he could do was parade as a higher beta, his hate for the alpha athlete has ruined everyones life….

    I feel like there still some chicks that owe me ass, i feel like theres still some cats that owe me cash–Kanye

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  75. “beginning with the discovery of how fickle and ruled-by-emotion women are…”

    “D´arcy: I’m very religious that way.

    Bart: How religious can you be if you’re pregnant?

    [gets slapped]

    Good answer.”

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  76. For thugs, it’s not about alpha/beta. It’s about money. Thugs with money have girlfriends.

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  77. on September 11, 2008 at 3:22 pm Marcus Halberstam

    Yours Truly,

    “This is a question for my female readers. What do you feel, at a gut level, when you know that more of your kind go for guys like this:”

    More good men for me!

    Now thats a good attitude to have. I admit I feel similarly when some people on here describe their (turmulous) relationships with bitches.

    In the meantime, Lefty can go to the gym and a good barber and become a 7 in looks. Check out what 4 months of serious gym time can do: http://www.dutchbodybuilding.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=86019
    After getting his degree in computer science, he makes a decent provider. Plus he will like playing board games and discussing cool theories.

    Incidentally, I have a degree in computer science and have been going to the gym for about 10 years now. That is some pretty poor gym performance though; unless the guy was fat beforehand I can’t see how those pics could be much of an improvement on anything. The first four months should show dramatic gains.

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  78. […] 11, 2008 by roissy Commenter NotSursprised in yesterday’s post linked to this story: 20-year-old Nihita Biswas is engaged to Charles Sobhraj. They plan to get […]

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  79. […] 11, 2008 by roissy Also from yesterday’s post, commenter Sebastian Flyte highlighted women’s natural inborn revulsion for beta males with […]

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  80. on September 11, 2008 at 4:52 pm Turkeybaster115

    #4 Agnostic:

    “In the Amazonian hunter-gatherer group the Yanamamo, men who had killed more people, had more offspring. Probably something similar among whatever part of Central America this forebrainless slime oozed out of.

    At least he proves that Central Americans can assimilate to Western social values — from 1200 AD. We just have to wait 800 years, if we’re lucky, and we’ll all get along fine in this happy melting pot of a country.”

    Response:

    This is the most racist intelletual piece of junk babble, I’ve read in a while. Buddy most of us are shocked by this tradgedy, and want this guys ball sacs fried, but please refrain from “all-american” collectivist responses, grouping or judging quite a diverse and noble group of people by one useless individual

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  81. This is a question for my female readers. What do you feel, at the gut level, when you know that more of your kind go for guys like this…than guys like this….

    Roissy, I’m assuming that this is a genuine question, not a rhetorical one, so here is my sincere answer: I feel nothing. If you want to know what I think, read further.

    I’ll give you some background information as a caveat lector, so you can know where this is coming from. If you don’t care about sources, other than the confirmation that they have a uterus, feel free to skip the next paragraph.

    I’m a 27-year-old lawyer (I know, I know, get out the holy water); for almost two years, I was a prosecutor, so I’ve spent my time surrounded by low-class thugs. I worked in a small city that was basically being torn apart by violent street gangs, and so guys like Pedro and his charming friends are not exotic beings to me. They knew me by name, they knew where I lived, and they spent a lot of time (though not enough) in jail cells I put them in. For God knows what reason, a lot of them seemed to like me. They would approach me on the street, in restaurants, in the mall, etc. to talk to me. I suppose it’s because I was one of the more familiar figures in their lives. They also liked to flirt with me, perhaps because they believed that I’d cut them an easier deal, I don’t know. The point is: I know these guys well. And I know their girls, because when the thugs weren’t getting arrested for gang violence or drugs, they were being arrested for domestic battery. The girls were no better than the guys. The girls frequently had criminal records themselves. Most of them were no more “victims” than their “abusive” paramours were; it was really just a matter of who threw the first punch on that particular day. These girls are pure trash who hook up with guys they can’t control physically; they use the court system (and well-meaning but foolish “victim advocates”) as their weapon in a power struggle that they freely and quite knowingly entered.

    To put it simply: I know the world of gang violence very well, I know the world of domestic battery very well, and I know the place where gang violence and domestic battery intersect very well. I know more than you’d like to hear about what clothes and what tattoos identify so-and-so as a member of a certain gang, and I know more than I’d — yes, I mean I there — like to know about the mentality of girls who hook up with guys like that.

    My answer: those girls are not normal girls any more than those guys are normal guys. You can no more fairly judge all women by Pedro’s thug girlfriend than I can fairly judge all men by Pedro the thug himself.

    Now, are there a lot of girls who have “bad boy” fixations? Yes, absolutely. The low-class ones will hook up with the criminals, the “bad boys” in their reach. The middle-class and upper-class ones will hook up with higher-status men who might not be criminals but still act like thugs. If you want to argue that women, in general, are attracted by power and displays of manliness, I’ll agree with you. If you want to argue that women, in general, are attracted to guys who treat them with indifference or disdain, I’d be more hesitant to agree with you outright, but I would agree that a significant number of women like men who treat them poorly. But I don’t agree with you that more women would be more likely to hook up with a serial killer or a gang thug than with a computer geek. Given those options, I think the average woman would turn away from both and cast her eyes about for the nearest available jock.

    Bottom line: I think people tend to be attracted to someone in their tribe or above it. Most women are not low-class and will not hook up with members of the criminal class. And you may say guys don’t care about class, but they do — just not directly. A low-class girl, even one treated well by nature, won’t have the means to keep up her beauty for long. High weight these days is more a marker of the poor than the wealthy; most gangbangers’ girlfriends I know are fat and ugly with too many tattoos, too few teeth, and lots of telltale signs of meth addiction, including the lovely little scabs all over their faces. Dental hygiene, skin care, proper hair care, proper nutrition — all require money, and that’s money most lower-class girls, Cinderella stories aside, don’t have. (What they do have, they spend on drugs. Not all of them, not even most of them, but a lot of them.)

    Even if you are right that most women are like that — more likely to hook up with thugs than geeks — to be honest with you, I don’t much care. I don’t feel responsible for the sins or failings of other people, and I don’t hold others responsible for my own sins or failings. There are plenty of girls out there who don’t have guys, just as there are plenty of guys out there who don’t have girls, and single girls can as easily blame their singleness on guys’ refusal to look at anything other than looks as single guys can blame their singleness on girls’ refusal to look at anything other than money, or status, or thuggery, or whatever the excuse of the day is. The cold, simple truth is that most people, if they’re going to mate at all, are going to mate on their level, and that skinny geeky computer boy in your picture probably isn’t going to get a beautiful girl unless he becomes the next Bill Gates. He might have better luck with fat geeky computer girl. Men seem hard-wired to want beauty, and women seem hard-wired to want status. If the beautiful women end up with the high-status men — which most will — then there are going to be a lot of people out there without mates, unless they’re willing to relax their preferences and start looking more at each other.

    And those who choose not to relax their preferences should understand that they’re making a choice, and that they can’t hold the rest of the world (or at least the other gender) accountable for that decision.

    Like


  82. 81 Elizabeth:

    Superb comment, I agree with nearly all of it. However:

    And those who choose not to relax their preferences should understand that they’re making a choice, and that they can’t hold the rest of the world (or at least the other gender) accountable for that decision.

    Agreed, but they can hold accountable those who spray a squid-ink cloud of disinfo and “pretty lies” in their attempts to camoflauge what they know in their hearts (and personal lives) to be true.

    Like


  83. 82 Tupac Chopra:

    (Hee, cool name.) Agreed, but they can hold accountable those who spray a squid-ink cloud of disinfo and “pretty lies” in their attempts to camoflauge what they know in their hearts (and personal lives) to be true.

    Oh, yes, absolutely. I think people who face the truth are a lot more likely to find happiness than the ones who buy into pretty lies.

    But I also think there’s a danger that disappointed people will go too far, and will mistake nihilistic garbage for truth. Most men and most women are not evil. Most men and most women, I think, are just looking for happiness. Not perfection, but happiness. We have our flaws and our idiosyncrasies and our bad days, but most people aren’t out to screw everyone else. And I think there’s as much danger in the nihilism as there is in the pretty little ideal that no real human being could ever live up to.

    Like


  84. “Now thats a good attitude to have. I admit I feel similarly when some people on here describe their (turmulous) relationships with bitches.

    Thank you. Isn’t lfe much easier that way? We can’t eliminate the presence of jerks and thugs, but we can avoid them in our own life.

    “Incidentally, I have a degree in computer science and have been going to the gym for about 10 years now. That is some pretty poor gym performance though; unless the guy was fat beforehand I can’t see how those pics could be much of an improvement on anything. The first four months should show dramatic gains.”

    He looks kind of scary in the pic on the right, and okay in the pic on the left. Not saying that he can go on the cover of Men’s Health or anything, but in 4 months he can go from not appealing to women to being able to find a girlfriend.

    I think both men and women overestimate the amount of looks needed to have a bit of attention from the opposite sex and be able to date regularly. Nobody you want will want to date a 4, but a 7 will be acceptable to most women. If you look at personality, character, looks, smarts, career and masculinity, it is better to be a 7 on all of these than a 10 on one or two with bad grades on some of the others.

    “If you want to argue that women, in general, are attracted by power and displays of manliness, I’ll agree with you. If you want to argue that women, in general, are attracted to guys who treat them with indifference or disdain, I’d be more hesitant to agree with you outright, but I would agree that a significant number of women like men who treat them poorly. But I don’t agree with you that more women would be more likely to hook up with a serial killer or a gang thug than with a computer geek. Given those options, I think the average woman would turn away from both and cast her eyes about for the nearest available jock.”

    That about sums it up!

    “It seems to me that the heavier one relies on game to get women, the more depraved the women one gets tend to be characterwise. So, maybe being a serious player really causes negative views on women to self-reinforce. If the definition of a quality woman includes brains and integrity, the implication is that she won’t give the time of day to a lying scumbag who treats other people like trash.”

    “Put another way, if you are unhappy with the sort of women your “game” is attracting, why not change your game?”

    I’m not sure what game Roissy runs, but if he is attracting women by treating them poorly or filtering out women who don’t put out early on, what he will generally get is women who have slept with many men who are attracted to men who treat them poorly. AKA the scarred ones. He may occasionally run into a naive girl who has her first one night stand but the women who are doing it weekly or monthly will be overrepresented in the bunch.

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  85. @63

    Instantaneous deconstruction doesn’t work.

    Same kind of story:

    Man walks into house. Man pulls out gun. Man shoots and kills woman. Man leaves house.

    Clearly this man must singularly be at fault, right?

    Except this would be the same man that had been hypothetically paid one million dollars to perform this deed previously (see above).

    In your example:

    Where did the gun come from? The drugs? The upbringing and societal pressure that partially (though certainly not totally) influenced an individual into this course of action?

    Instantenous snapshots of life ignore the correlation of experience, time, and outside factors acting on a situation. You cannot pre-create a single situation arbitrarily and think it exists in isolation.

    In closing, if you’re going to attempt to call me stupid, think your argument through first.

    Better luck next time.

    Like


  86. Anonymous/Clio 73–

    Whiskey, I know it’s not just welfare, and I know that single-motherhood exists outside the black ghetto and the English council-house. Some of the reasons for it are the same in both rich and poor communities (the decline of respect for authority and tradition, the decline of religious observation), and some are quite different. Feminism and the wish to be entirely independent of husbandly control has had something to do with it among middle- and upper-middle-class women.

    A great deal was changed by the combination of 1) welfare, provided mostly by taxing males married and unmarried, but to a growing but still overall limited extent successful females as well; and 2) using state coercion to force males who the woman is no longer providing wifely services to in exchange, to continue to pay very substantially against his will to a woman who takes his children and goes off to live with another man, or in persuit of another man, while playing with non contributing males in the interim. In addition she gets a very large percentage of any accumulated savings even if he earned nearly all of it with a view to sharing it with his wife, but not his deserter.

    Take away those two things and there would be HUGE changes. It would cause a lot of suffering, but you know what so do wars and many other things. I basically think tough, if the outcome is better. Not ends justifies ANY means whatsoever, they both have to be considered, but yeah, pain often has to be transitioned through.

    There still would be some, a lot, of what we have today simply because women can now earn comparably to men if they really are willing to sacrifice as much long term to do so (which they usually aren’t and I think will be willing to less and less as the future unfolds and ideology recedes, unless there are lots of other psychic rewards to the job and they don’t have so much going on in their family life).

    I think we’d get to a much fairer place.

    Oh, and women could contract in marriage for something different. But I think the starting point should be no support, unless perhaps the man leaves her and marries of co-habits with another woman within one year? – two? split the difference? of the breakup.

    As it is marriage is an entirely one way commitment. Only the man is legally obligated, and for the most part he’s the only one socially / morally obligated these days, according to current culture. Does a modern feminist wife feel an obligation to provide sex at least two times a weak if her husband wants it, and to put her heart into doing her damnedest to actively participate and enjoy it? Or is it all up to him, like every other prob. in contemporary marriage according to e.g. American sitcoms and other pop. entertainment?

    Like


  87. clio sad:Interesting, Chic. And sad. Aren’t there many young ghetto men who make money from selling drugs

    No, there are not. Any man/boy who you see on the corners dealing, is not making much money. It is actually shameful for a 30 year old man to work on the corners selling hand2hand. The corner dealer is almost at the bottom of the totem pole. Only the lookouts are more indispensible. Unbelievably, the drug game is structured like a corporation. The men on the top, like CEO’s get a parachute and bail out when things get rough.

    The Marlo character, from the television show The Wire, is to the drug game, what the CEOs who F*** up a company and run with a big severance package are to Wall Street. If you really want to understand the drug game, and how drugs destroy poor blk neighborhoods, The Wire is the best source. You see how the drug game works from the view of the police, dealers, children, school system, corrupt politicians and even the local paper.

    Alias clio saidBut isn’t it true that many of this group started out with special advantages? Some had fairer skin and perhaps white fathers who were willing to help them out; some came from families whose “masters” in the days of slavery had encouraged or at least permitted them to be educated and had a tradition of being teachers in the black community

    In this country slave owners did not acknowledge their mixed raced children out right like they did in some other places(Haiti, Saudi Arabia Brazil(?)). Furthermore, it was illegal to teach a slave how to read and write, unlike Haiti , where slave-owners would sometimes send their mixed race children to schools in France. The poor whites of Haiti put an end to that because they were jealous of the educated mixed race. Slaves who could read and write faced being sold away from their family if caught or even being killed. BTW, mixed race male babies where often killed. There was a fear that if light enough, they could one day blend into general society and destroy the wht bloodline.

    Very good Clio, being a teacher was well respected job to have, and still is the blk community. It was one of the few jobs an educated blk could have. The thing people don’t get is this, A Jewish person(most) can hide their religion. Simply don’t wear a Yamaka, don’t socialize with other Jews, and if someone asks you are you Jewish, say no. Now how can blk people hide the fact that they are blk?

    They didn’t have much of a tradition to inspire them to seek education, either – probably in their communities they had encountered few black people who had done so

    Not true, during this time, blks were even more segregated than they are today. Blks of all incomes lived amongst each other, although there were still areas that middle-class and wealthy blks lived. If you wanted to see a doctor ,dentist etc. you visited a blk one* in the neighborhood.

    Like


  88. dougjnn said:
    Cosby says some wise things. Actually the whole conservative black intellectual group, from Sowell to Whorter to many others keep saying good and useful things but it all just wafts way, never picked up and taken seriously by the mainstream leftist oriented media or educational establishments.

    Um Cosby is not the first blk to say those types of things. They can talked about all the time by even the most liberal of 9-5 working class blks. The thing is, unless you are blk, you probably won’t hear them.

    Days of Broken Arrows said:
    I see the discussion has alreayd gotten into civil rights, minorities, etc.

    Because Americans talk about monorites like the Japanese talk about the humidity and the French about bread and food prices.

    yours truly saidAfter getting his degree in computer science, he makes a decent provider
    There are people who have computer science degress who wish this^^^ was still true.

    With all this talk of welfare, are any of you aware of the major changes Bill Clinton made to welfare when he was president??? The days of neighborhoods of women just sitting on their butts and collecting are long gone.

    Like


  89. Chic Noir, I was told that Oliver Howard, the founder of Howard University, had “mulatto” children and wanted them to be able to get an education but knew that no white university would permit this. I have checked Wikipedia which makes no mention of this fact, so perhaps I am mistaken.

    As for black education, I do know that technically it was illegal for whites to teach black people to read and write, but it happened very often, all the same, according to my readings in American history. It was simply more cheaper and more convenient for white slave-owners to teach their senior black slaves to read and write, so they could help out with paper-work effectively, than it was to pay a white person to do the same work. And once one black slave had been taught to read and write, and given a book or two, he could then teach others to do the same.

    You speak of people “not getting” that Jews can hide their religion. Well, yes, I do get that. In Canada, we have a phrase for that expresses this succinctly: it’s “visible minority”.

    Clio

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  90. DA said:it may also be attributed to the fact that ghetto women seem more likely to hold out for the perfect partner who just doesn’t exist in the milieu

    Like Carrie and her crew from Sex and the City. Many women & men believe in a perfect partner, I think we call such person a soulmate

    Plus, you’ll need a way for young black women to find an alternative means of feeling loved and wanted other than their babies…

    I agree but this can be said of any young woman who chooses to have a baby at 16.

    Whiskey saidFar more likely, macho posturing ala Malcolm X against “the Man” got young Black Men sex, so that insured a race to the bottom for the thuggiest thug behavior
    You nothing of Malcom X, if you did, you would like him and his teachings. He said most of what Cosby said, but 50 years earlier.

    Whiskey said:Very few Blacks actually served in the Military, much less Vietnam, in the 1960’s, and that pattern holds today. Most of the casualties, then as now, were White, mostly from the South and Midwest

    Agnostic told me to tell you, “numbers please”. *
    BTW, blks make up a small percentage of the country so I doubt blks would make up the larger portion of casualties but to say that there were few blks to serve in Vietnam is a mistake.

    Marrkusaid:That’s sad. I hope you change your mind some day. (Being race conscious and all, you do realize that if you have children of your own, you’re likely to improve your race and humanity as a whole.)

    Are you blk? Ethopian? How can one person improve the race&humanity as a whole? With Rare exceptions for the mothers people like: Bill Gates, Charles Drew, Einstein,Alexander Graham Bell, Lewis Latimer,Garrett Morgan,Otis Boykin,Darwin,FDR,Thomas Edison
    etc…

    yours truly said:Maybe not the superdangerous things, but the somewhat safer versions of extreme sports, faraway travel and even martial arts. The risk of serious injury on those are pretty low, other people don’t get hurt and you can show off your courage.
    agree 200% with this. I don’t know many women who find Stevo O and the like very attractive but men who travel extensively are very attractive to a lot of women. Men who’ve been in the military, and had the opportunity to travel, find that it works well for them too. If you think Roosh only has conversations about footwear with women he meets in bars, then I got a piece of land I want to sell you for a dollar or 15cents- Euro.

    FUN FACT, even ghetto blacks find international travel interesting too

    Like


  91. FUN FACT, even ghetto blacks find international travel interesting too

    Maybe some, but I wouldn’t say that’s true on average.

    Like


  92. As for black education, I do know that technically it was illegal for whites to teach black people to read and write, but it happened very often, all the same, according to my readings in American history

    Correct Clio, there was a big rush by blks for education atfer slavery had ended.

    Clio said:It was simply more cheaper and more convenient for white slave-owners to teach their senior black slaves to read and write, so they could help out with paper-work effectively, than it was to pay a white person to do the same work

    Clio, I’ve never come across anything like this but I would not be surprised. Outsourcing whey back when;(

    You speak of people “not getting” that Jews can hide their religion. Well, yes, I do get that. In Canada, we have a phrase for that expresses this succinctly: it’s “visible minority”.

    So there is a lot of this going on in Canada?

    Like


  93. RW
    Roissy,
    Haven’t read the other comments, but lower-class rhetoric, ebonics, etc., are a major turnoff and often go with being lower class.

    Then why is Bush President and why was Pallin nominated for VP.

    Like


  94. Marcus Halberstam said:
    Seriously, I am a guy most people would describe as “high testosterone” by looking at me

    But what do you really look like?
    Got a pic?
    Wanna go out for a drink?

    The idea that females are breeding more violence into our culture is silly. Per capita, the world is more peaceful than its ever been and only getting more so. If 1% of women are attracted to murderers, and 0.1% of men are murderers, then those men are going to be swimming in chicks

    Pure Genius

    Similarly, only a small percentage of men can be “alpha” (by the very definition of the term). If 20% of women are attracted to alpha-males, those guys are also swimming in pussy. Attempting to pass judgments on all of female nature based on their attraction to alpha males would be an extreme example of a bad selection bias

    * gives a standing ovation*
    *throws roses on stage*
    :kiss:

    Like


  95. “Marrkusaid:That’s sad. I hope you change your mind some day. (Being race conscious and all, you do realize that if you have children of your own, you’re likely to improve your race and humanity as a whole.)

    Are you blk? Ethopian?”

    I’m neither. (And my name has one r and two ks.)

    “How can one person improve the race&humanity as a whole?”

    A well-adjusted individual with above average intelligence can slow down the current dysgenic trend by having children. You are black and you seem like a person with a three-digit IQ and the ability to function in society as productive citizen. Thus by reproducing you can raise both the average quality of the black race and that of a white dominant mixed population such as that of the USA. It’s a pity you have decided against having children of your own (as you said). I hope you will change your mind.

    Like


  96. T, those that I come across are. I grew up and live in that type of neighborhood. They gave me the nickname, worldtravler. Maybe you are not a good storyteller . Some folks are a bit jealous and afraid to do it themselves but that’s normal.

    Like


  97. Markku, I hope not, I would hate to be like Martha Steward’s daughter.

    Sorry about the name. My grandpa always said,”there is nothing a man hates more than being called by the wrong name.”
    :lOl:

    Like


  98. Not true, during this time, blks were even more segregated than they are today. Blks of all incomes lived amongst each other, although there were still areas that middle-class and wealthy blks lived. If you wanted to see a doctor ,dentist etc. you visited a blk one* in the neighborhood.

    Before the 1960s, the black community was generally lumped into the de facto black community with a wide range of social classes within the same social space. Some have argued that the flight of the black middle and working classes in the mid-60s outside of these original communities left behind a poor working class with no support structures to emphasize the community, or middle class to provide examples of how to behave.

    The days of neighborhoods of women just sitting on their butts and collecting are long gone.

    Welfare has generally shifted towards temporary forms of assistance or supplemental supports in lieu of permanent assistance. Interestingly, stuff like housing projects, Section 8, food stamps, and welfare checks never took up a large part of the federal budget.

    Like Carrie and her crew from Sex and the City. Many women & men believe in a perfect partner, I think we call such person a soulmate

    At the surface, it seems that ghetto men and women are just unwilling to settle for somebody within their milieu. On the other hand, who really wants to marry a woman with two or three kids from different dads (who may want to kill you) or a man with multiple convictions and no job prospects? When your choices are limited, it certain reduces the incentive to marry, especially when you’re on the periphery of watching “pretty people” with money marry each other.

    Very few Blacks actually served in the Military

    I’ve generally used the anecdotal story of a former neighbor, who’s son went to Vietnam in the 1960s and returned as a perpetually drunk or high ne’er-do-well who never keep a job or maintain a place to live. I suspect that he’s not an isolated case, especially amongst older homeless men.

    How can one person improve the race&humanity as a whole?

    I think his theory that moderate to high IQ blacks like yourself should have children to out breed ghetto black women. Judging by the birth rates of middle class blacks, it appears that blacks prefer spending money instead breeding, or they’re simply apprehensive of the world around them.

    Like


  99. Weird Fact: IIRC, the four main black commenters here are all of foreign ancestry…

    Like


  100. clio:But to state the obvious: the rich can afford things that the poor can’t. From gambling to addiction to sleeping around, the well-off are cushioned from the consequences of their actions to a great degree (though not indefinitely). So the social impact of this behaviour has been less severe among the well-to-do than the poor. Plus, there’s the fact that decent middle-class jobs pay more than welfare or minimum wage jobs

    Excellent point Clio. The rich can buy their way out of trouble.

    I feel like there still some chicks(10s) that owe me ass, i feel like theres still some cats that owe me cash–Kanye

    The theam song of many males who vist this site.

    *becomes an Elizabeth groupie after reading comment 81*

    Like


  101. DA said:I’ve generally used the anecdotal story of a former neighbor, who’s son went to Vietnam in the 1960s and returned as a perpetually drunk or high ne’er-do-well who never keep a job or maintain a place to live. I suspect that he’s not an isolated case, especially amongst older homeless men

    I think your right David. I have some relatives who talk of having a teacher who would get on the floor under his desk whenever a helicopter would fly over the school.

    They had another teacher who was often absent from school because of the reoccurring nightmares and flash back like memories associated with the PTSD he develop after serving in Vietnam.

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  102. Weird Fact: IIRC, the four main black commenters here are all of foreign ancestry

    what is IIRC and who are the four main blk commenters?

    Like


  103. IIRC = if I remember correctly

    The four commenters are T who is Haitian, Virgil Kent who is think is of West African origins, yourself with some Ethopian ancestry, and myself who is of Haitian ancestry as well.

    Like


  104. T, those that I come across are. I grew up and live in that type of neighborhood. They gave me the nickname, worldtravler. Maybe you are not a good storyteller . Some folks are a bit jealous and afraid to do it themselves but that’s normal.

    When you say “interested in world travel,” do you mean interested in hearing about it or interested enough to actually do it? Maybe I misunderstood your sentence. If you mean the former, then yeah, I can see it. But not the latter.

    Like


  105. Also, keep in mind you’re a chick. If you’re good-looking to boot you can recite the alphabet backwards and most dudes in the hood will act like you’re saying the most interesting shit ever said. 😉

    Like


  106. IIRC = if I remember correctly

    The four commenters are T who is Haitian, Virgil Kent who is think is of West African origins, yourself with some Ethopian ancestry, and myself who is of Haitian ancestry as well.

    Well I consider myself blk/African-American. VK is Nigerian IIRC. I didn’t know was Haitian also. Why didn’t he comment on that Haitian post we had going yesterday.

    @ T- I meant hearing about(for the most part). Most people who don’t travel think that it is very very expensive, like buying a new car with cash. BTW, most Americans don’t travel internationally. Only a tiny number own passports

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  107. T said:Also, keep in mind you’re a chick. If you’re good-looking to boot you can recite the alphabet backwards and most dudes in the hood will act like you’re saying the most interesting shit ever said
    [email protected], very true. I guess I am just a good story teller because I seem to draw both women and men in.

    @DA-Don’t forget about Nicole-AA, I think Brandy may poc and old friend Reggie. Reggie has been MIA for some time. Maybe those who udder harsh statements around race ran him away? ;(

    Like


  108. There was a Haitian post?

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  109. Well, we where talking/writing about Haiti yesterday and the day before.

    I can recall you saying your family is from the West Indies. I didn’t know they were from Haiti, until DA said wrote about you earlier.

    Like


  110. 100 chicnoir

    *becomes an Elizabeth groupie after reading comment 81*

    Ha ha, cool. I’m already a chicnoir groupie. We can form a mutual admiration society. 🙂

    Like


  111. @Elizabeth- Wonderful

    Like


  112. chicnoir 100-

    Excellent point Clio. The rich can buy their way out of trouble.

    Yes. But that doesn’t excuse the poor from getting into trouble they can’t buy themselves out of. It was after all obvious that they couldn’t to being with.

    The middle classes have certainly know that for, I don’t know, forever.

    Far to many excuses are made for “victims”. Most “victims” who aren’t such by the simplest one time kind of assault or the like, would be far better off if they were first berated for being losers. And then counseled on how to stop being losers. You know, like is done with other sorts of losers who just don’t have victimhood protected status extended to them, because e.g. they’re male.

    There are privileges associated with being rich that extend beyond bigger houses and fancier cars. That’s a lot of why so many people so badly want to be rich.

    Like


  113. Elizabeth 81–

    Excellent post.

    Like


  114. dougjnn:There are privileges associated with being rich that extend beyond bigger houses and fancier cars. That’s a lot of why so many people so badly want to be rich

    *blows kiss at dougjnn*

    I agree 100%. Sadly, so many people are in denial when it comes to this fact.

    I could care less about a big fancy house or car but I certainly want the freedom that comes with being wealthy.

    Like


  115. I stop by here often and I agree chicnoir is sharp.

    Like


  116. Aw, thanks Kel 🙂

    You guys are just stroking my ego.

    Like


  117. dougjnn 114 —

    Thanks. 🙂

    Like


  118. chicnoir:

    You guys are just stroking my ego.

    Only because it deserves stroking. 🙂

    Like


  119. Chicnoir, I wil l take you up on that drink offer 🙂

    Like


  120. I offer because I notice your fascination with Alphas

    Like


  121. 100 chic noir:

    I feel like there still some chicks(10s) that owe me ass, i feel like theres still some cats that owe me cash–Kanye

    The theam song of many males who vist this site.

    Hells yeah!

    Like


  122. [email protected]^^^

    @kel- there is no facination with alphas here.
    @elizabeth- Aw thanks.

    Like


  123. Elizabeth – I like your post except your saying the skinny computer geek should have to settle for a fat girl. A decent, educated guy should not have to settle for the lowest of the low. If you had said he should settle for SKINNY geeky girl, then I might agree.

    You seem to be very balanced compared to what lawyer chicks write here usually.

    Like


  124. 124 Jack

    Thanks. 🙂 I’m curious, though — why are fat girls seen with such revulsion? (Especially since overweight is the new average?) I’m not trying to be judgmental here — I’m just curious. Obviously I’m not a man, so men might see things differently, but I think bad features, bad skin, and bad teeth are much bigger turn-offs than weight (unless we’re talking morbid obesity).

    I asked one of my brothers a few weeks ago if he would rather have, for a girlfriend, a chubby girl with a pretty face, or a slender girl with a plain face. He hesitated for a long time and finally said it would depend on how chubby “chubby” meant. I’ve seen some overweight (not obese) girls with very pretty faces, so his response surprised me. And the standard of beauty for weight used to be much, much different than it is now. If you look at paintings of Renaissance women — women who were supposed to be the pinnacle of beauty — you can see that they are quite fleshy. While they have feminine figures, and they’re not obese, they have quite a bit more skin than is considered attractive now. And if you look at old movies, the women are much heavier than actresses are today. The preference for very slim women is a recent development, so it doesn’t seem like a preference that’s innate (the way the preference for, say, youth is).

    So I’m curious why excess weight seems to be the number one thing held against women these days. Again, I’m not trying to be obnoxious — I’m just curious.

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  125. — why are fat girls seen with such revulsion? (Especially since overweight is the new average?) I’m not trying to be judgmental here — I’m just curious.

    Men’s tastes vary from very thin to ‘Roubenesque’ but a grossly overweight woman evokes a visceral repulsion in most men.

    I’m not sure why that’s so, but those better qualified at talking about evol-psych will probably point to things like a weak heart, overburdened circulatory system, stressed joints, compromised personal hygiene, difficulties in pregnancy, and evidence of gluttony and slovenliness.

    I’d bet that the kind of gross obesity one sees everywhere around today was a rare thing 50+ years ago; today, like you said, it’s a ‘new average.’

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  126. When I was a teenager in the 1970s, teenage girls called themselves “fat” if their hips started getting a little big. All through my childhood there was never more than one fat child in any of the classes I attended, if that. Even sizes have been changed since then, so that what was a size 8 back in the day is now a size 4 or so. “Average” is much fatter than it used to be.

    Clio

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  127. 125 Elizabeth:

    I’m curious, though — why are fat girls seen with such revulsion? (Especially since overweight is the new average?) I’m not trying to be judgmental here — I’m just curious. Obviously I’m not a man, so men might see things differently, but I think bad features, bad skin, and bad teeth are much bigger turn-offs than weight (unless we’re talking morbid obesity).

    There are many reasons I’m sure, but one that stands out to my mind is that our visceral reaction to the beauty of the opposite sex depends on the visual perception of secondary sexual characteristics. Flab tends to distort things like hip/waist ratios in bodily beauty, and bone structure in facial beauty. As a man and woman become obese, they tend to approach each other in physical appearance, like two overgrown, overfed, asexual infants.

    My .02 sense

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  128. Actresses in older movies had softer bodies because they weren’t expected to exercise much, and they were expected to have natural curves (bust and hips) because plastic surgery was rare then, but they weren’t really fatter than their recent counterparts. Marilyn Monroe and Sophia Loren were slightly heavier than other actresses in their day, but they were quite specifically hired as “sex objects”. And they both had tiny waists. Their modern equivalents would starve themselves to emaciation (Pamela Anderson) and then get false breasts and, if necessary, buttocks, to make up the difference. But most of the screen sirens were thin – Marlene Dietrich, Jean Harlow, Ava Gardner, Rita Hayworth, even Betty Grable (whose unexercised legs in her pinup photos look rather plump by today’s standards, but not fat).

    Clio

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  129. Elizabeth – I met a girl last night who is pretty, smart, and a little chunky, but also curvy. I’d have no problem dating or certainly fucking her. It’s more about women who obviously don’t take care of themselves. I actually don’t like super skinny girls either. I like a healthy/athletic kind of body and a girl who likes to show it off a little.

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  130. @PA- can you post pictures or links of what is considered acceptable chubby and grossly obesse.

    @clio- I notice that many French actresses are thin but have normal looking bodies-read not the low bodyfat overly buff madonna body.

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