Sarah Palin’s Masculine Digit Ratio

I mentioned in the comments over at Half Sigma’s blog that if the rumors of Sarah Palin’s adultery were true it wouldn’t surprise me since she has a masculine jawline which suggests higher levels of testosterone than the average woman. More testosterone means more sexual impulsivity. Curious, I looked for a photo that would show her index finger to ring finger digit ratio. Here’s the clearest one I could find:

looking like a woman, feeling like a man.

looking like a woman, feeling like a man.

The evidence is in — her right hand’s ring finger is considerably longer than her index finger. Sarah Palin was exposed to higher than normal amounts of testosterone in her mother’s womb. This would go a long way to explaining her love of non-metrosexual alpha men, caribou hunting, moose dressing, shooting, tattoos, having lots of sex, crushing her enemies, and her meteoric rise to the top of the manly world of Alaska politics. Bristol Palin probably inherited her mother’s strong libido.

Personally, I like Sarah Palin, mostly because her mere existence drives SWPLs crazy with hate. I wouldn’t be attracted to her as girlfriend material, though. I prefer my women sweet, girly and feminine, not hard-driving and bloodthirsty. I would be suspicious if a girl I was dating told me she liked hunting or wanted to run for public office.

PS: This will be my last post on Sarah Palin. She embodies a lot of modern cultural and psychosocial baggage which is why I’ve been writing about her. I won’t write much about politics until election day. Our prediction: Obama by fewer than 100,000 total votes. The red blue electoral map will look nearly identical to the previous two elections. Same old same old… for now. Reconquista!


  1. This will be my last post on Sarah Palin.

    Praise Allah.


  2. *wondering what Clio’s ratio is*


  3. on September 6, 2008 at 10:15 pm monohechomierda

    Yeah, I was beginning to wonder if nothing was fucking sacred with all the political talk on this blog.


  4. Digit ratios? Palin probably likes Alphas, moose hunting, shooting etc. because she lives in Alaska.


  5. I told you so.


  6. Acrylic nails are missing! 😦


  7. Her ring and index fingers look about the same length to me. That still makes her higher testosterone than most white women, but not an extreme case. That also makes sense. She looks a real mixture of feminine and female assertive to me. All that playfulness is in a feminine way. She’s definitely not girly girl though.

    She’s probably a real tigress in bed – provided it’s a real tiger emotionally and physically pounding /dominating her. I.e. she loves to fight against submitting and then give it up big. Yeah I think she’s a hot milf.

    I too would worry about her cheating on me. I think it would have better than average odds. BUT — I wouldn’t mind so much (after we’d formed a really strong pair bond) aside from the trust violation part, which is big, if she didn’t have a fall in love affair with someone else but rather just sex or close, and also lusted after me more, since her whole sexual drive would get kicked way up.

    Best way would be with a open marriage for both but with strong rules — designed to firebreak love or near love outside the relationship (but not close sexual friendships) and drama or social embarassment, through mutual carte blanche veto power for the other spouse, most definitely including being able to tell your spouse (and her solemn willingness to comply) to stop seeing anyone who has become threatening for emotional reasons, or for reasons of diminishing the sexual connection and frequency between the couple. Normally that goes up, often way up, when these things start openly and with relationship preserving rules and powers for the other spouse in this way, but it can go down later if the involvement emotionally or sometimes otherwise becomes too great.


  8. I wonder if McCain is gonna have a heart attack when he hits her from the back. *fingers crossed*


  9. on September 6, 2008 at 11:15 pm Days of Broken Arrows

    SWPL??? Single White Professional Ladies?

    Explain, please.


  10. SWPL = Stuff White People Like

    See the blog link under “Sites of Interest”


  11. Interesting stuff, dougjnn. I once had a brief fling with a woman who’s now living the Lifestyle with her spouse. They don’t have rules of the kind you’ve described, as far as I can tell (she still had some feelings for me, and our post-marital get togethers were sanctioned by him, but had a distinct emotional component that he might not have liked. Oh…and one other thing…he always provided condoms…six usually, how insulting!…for me to use…squick me out! Felt like he was watching…I always refused to use them…bareback all the way…she never told him about my refusal), and maybe they should, since she’s his wife number four, and the guy was only in his thirties when they tied the knot.

    It’s interesting that the scenario you describe as less ultimately destructive (she screws around for sheer lust) is the one that supposed to, for evo-bio reasons, bother men more than emotional infidelity. Maybe if the emotional stuff is there along with the rodgering and boffing and other general goings-on, then the emotional stuff becomes ultra-threatening. Dunno.

    Do you have experience in the area? Not asking aggressively…could be people you know. The Lifestyle is an interesting angle on marriage, especially here, where marriage is The Death Of All That Is Good For Man.


  12. Roissy — you’re pushing it there. Palin is just like her outdoorsy school teacher / track coaching parents — who were on a Caribou Hunt when her selection was announced.

    There’s no credible evidence linking testosterone exposure in the womb to finger length in women (or jaw structure), much less testosterone exposure to “manly” traits.

    What you don’t understand is that pretty much MOST women in the Mountain West rural areas are JUST LIKE PALIN. Let me explain it to you: money is tight, trips to the store are 4 hour one-way affairs, everyone learns to fix things, work hard, economize (Palin’s “one big thing” politically on government spending), and the main recreations are hunting and fishing which also adds to diet (and again stretches the budget).

    It’s a hard life. Hard, demanding, physical work are the hallmarks of that: ranching, farming, hardscrabble mining, fishing, oil field or gas work.

    It does have it’s rewards, which is why some people either seek it out or stay there: INDEPENDENCE, no one is your boss but you. Work for others is judged by pure productivity, not politicking or anything like that. See Deadliest Catch, it’s how fast you can bait traps, pull in crab, weld on the drilling rigs. That’s it.

    Mostly it’s men who like that, but some women really do love it. Among other things, they don’t have to pay much attention to appearance, makeup, etc. Hard physical work is the gym. They get married and mostly stay married. These women are completely different from any you would experience in DC and you’d be completely unable to game them. Since their selections are “old school” priorities: loyalty, capacity and willingness for hard work, canny intelligence to maximize revenue, etc.

    I seriously doubt Palin had an affair — it’s impossible to keep things secret among small communities, and the penalties (lost loyalty) make it quite different than anonymous urban localities. Risk of catastrophic loss of resources among split families — remember EVERYONE is independent there. It’s why they chose that tough life or stayed there in the first place.

    Obama, I’m more and more convinced, will probably lose decisively. He only knows one thing: Jack Ryan type scandals (he’s behind obviously the ones thrown against the wall with Palin). Latest Obama screwup: his delegates in Denver threw thousands of American Flags away — janitors rescued them from the trash and are giving them to the McCain campaign.


  13. Let me add, you’ll find women like Palin in: rural New Zealand, outback Australia, and Western Canada.

    Dominant factors in sexual selection of partners: reputation sticks, life on your own requires/demands a partner, the pool of “good” men is limited and doesn’t grow any more than that of women.

    All factors that act to create an environment for monogamy, all other things being equal. More intense the more remote the community is, and challenging the environment.

    Just for an example: working stock (thousand pound animals) can easily lead to severe injuries leaving one dependent on a spouse.


  14. Other than skin color and eloquence, there is no difference you can define between Obama and John Kerry, Al Gore, Michael Dukakis, Jimmy Carter, George McGovern, Gary Hart or any of the other losers the Dems have been looking to put in the Oval Office since before I was born.

    Clinton made it because he wasn’t really an SWPL transnational progressive ideologue like the others, because he was from the South, and because he was the most talented politician of his generation.

    Obama has the talent, but he has all the upper crust Chomskyite college lefty baggage to go with it. If McCain can avoid having a heart attack or saying something “macaca” stupid until election day, he will win by some margin.


  15. >I hope that all of you that make this hateful and reckless comments about Heath burn blissfully in hell. It’s so classy of you to take the plunge on him now that he can’t fight back… Really brave!
    >Yeah… Awesome…. Just fucking burn in hell. All of you, motherfuckers!


  16. caribou hunting is effed. elk are the true prize. the best thing is wrastling a real live dc rat to the ground, reducing it to a shuddering composite of itself, just melting into the asphalt.


  17. 2 Tupac Chopra:

    *wondering what Clio’s ratio is*

    *tapping foot*


  18. So when are you going to start studying her cranium to figure out if she’s going to be a criminal?


  19. The index finger of my right hand is way longer than the ring, but on my left hand, they are almost the same.

    What does that mean?


  20. caribou hunting is effed. elk are the true prize. the best thing is wrastling a real live dc rat to the ground, reducing it to a shuddering composite of itself, just melting into the asphalt.

    Now, this message intrigues me…



  21. I once had a brief fling with a woman who’s now living the Lifestyle with her spouse … he always provided condoms…six usually, how insulting!…for me to use…squick me out! Felt like he was watching…I always refused to use them…bareback all the way

    Bareback = an exclusively gay term.
    The term for your experience is “raw dogging.”


  22. “Bareback” is used all the time in the Life to describe hotwives getting it on condom-free with their lovers/bulls. “Dogging” in general is a Brit term.


  23. Tupac, Tupac. I’m beginning to think that maybe we really do need to go for a walk and, ah, work this out.

    Clio’s digit ratios are for me to know. Not that I do. But you get my point, right?


    Tupac? Tupac?


  24. on September 7, 2008 at 3:40 pm Turkeybaster115

    I think roissy is sexually attracted to palin. Roissy, you mean if a skantyly clad palin, showed up at your apartment one night, horney as shit, you wouldn’t jump her bones?


  25. Maybe 15 years ago when she was in her prime I would have considered her doable for a one-night offer.

    Now she is just another criminal politician, all alleged sweetness and competence, but like any mob godfather she pretends to have a great family life (way to go raising your daughter Palin!) even as she foists absurd laws and regulations on the rest of us. (Don’t get me started on her Creationism stance — we’re definitely not electing a rocket scientist. And some of you want this woman in charge of nuclear weapons should McCain die?)

    Both teams in contention for the POTUS are flip-sides of the One Boot-On-Your-Neck Party, and we’re in for a rough ride because neither side understands one whit about freedom.

    Are choices are basically fascism-lite with McPalin and socialism-mid with JObama. I agree with Roissy: JObama by a hair.


  26. 23 PatrickH:

    Patrick, you need to step the fuck off ‘fore I blast you one.

    Look, all this chest-beating and posturing does neither of us any good. It simply plays into Clio’s ego-gratification. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but I believe it behooves us to recognize that if *anyone* is to win the favors of Our Fair Maiden, it will ultimately be through our own virtues and personal accomplishments with respect to her needs and desires. Such as, to take an example completely at random, having the perceptiveness and sensitivity to intuit Clio’s love of Chaucer.

    You know, like I did.




  27. Whiskey 12—

    “There’s no credible evidence linking testosterone exposure in the womb to finger length in women (or jaw structure), much less testosterone exposure to “manly” traits.”

    Completely wrong. There is a ton of evidence for both. No I’m not going to do your work for you and refind and link it up for you. Use google. To make things simpler for you whiskey, the evidence suggests that we all start out in early embryonic stage as females and that it’s mainly (or anyway extremely importantly) testosterone release in the womb yes cause by male chromosomes/genes selected at the moment of conception that turn on those chemical signals. Also, basically, the more testosterone in the womb the more manly the male will turn out to be. More testosterone in the womb tends to be create bigger penises and bigger balls for example, and more testosterone in life.

    Post conception testosterone is needed for male puberty onset, and the amount of it so greatly affects aggressiveness / desire for dominance that it may be the sole determinant (though other factors will of course effect the ABILITY of the male in question to actually achieve dominance. Height and muscle mass (good size) for instance, and IQ up to a point, a fairly high point in modern society. That the levels of testosterone during gestation in the womb would effect the ring/index finger ratio is probably a harmless but also non functional side effect that essentially, if you will, there was no evolutionary purpose in pruning away. (That’s putting it mistakenly ontologically, but it’s way easier to express and understand that way, and not importantly wrong for these purposes.)

    Oh, and testosterone and estrogen /progesterone are so important in maintaining or amping up male and female sexual / personality characteristics throughout life that 1) basically the way you turn a man into a woman is a) suppress his testosterone levels by chemical intervention, but not to zero (too little sex drive of any kind) and b) strongly up his estrogen level from around zero to a high level. You need surgery to invert a penis and make it a vagina, of course.
    Do some research before you spout of on scientific subjects.

    Hey I genuinely like you man. This isn’t intended as some general put down, just a heads up.


  28. Whisky 12—

    “What you don’t understand is that pretty much MOST women in the Mountain West rural areas are JUST LIKE PALIN.”

    I DON’T DISAGREE with this point. I don’t have enough familiarity to endorse (or reject the “pretty much most”, but I do have enough to know it’s a hell of a lot more frequent. So yes, I agree that while higher levels of testosterone for females relative to their sex’s average will tend to imprell a woman to have geater interest in these typically male hobbies and interests, the cultural surround is very very likely more important in determining one local populations average amount of interest compared to another.

    There are major differences in testosterone level between the major races though. Blacks and whites grouped sorta together but with blacks more including esp. in their women, with Asians less. Like everything else biological (genetic) this differences takes the shape of overlapping bell (i.e. Gaussian) curves. If you don’t know what that means you HAVE TO LEARN if you want to approach any evo-pysch or the impact of our genes on our minds and society, sort of issue with any kind of understanding whatsoever. I’m talking about basic understand the diagrams level of understanding, not equations, etc. Try Wikipedia. (Basically it’s the difference between “men tend to be taller than women” and “every man is taller than every woman” — but and understanding combined with a bit of open intelligence will tell you one hell of a lot more and deeper than that. It’s really a fundamental scientific / mental construct. It isn’t taught except at specialist levels because the quasi Marxists in control of our educational elites don’t want any more threat to their blanks slate, victimology, socially construct the new progressive unisexual and non ethnic or racial person so that all are fully equal in result (not just rights) and essentially the same but for incidentals. Biology (genetics) FUNDAMENTALLY doesn’t work that way, but that’s the deep dark secret the PC establishment works to suppress or certainly to allow any large and important conclusions to popularly expressed. Loss of job results. Many examples and ubiquitous and massive chilling, esp. in the popular sphere. (Specialist journals are overlooked, until stuff starts to seep out, then is viciously vilified.) See e.g. Larry Summers, who cowardly and very beta boyishly backed down, and then once that PR victory was securred by the feminist educational and media mob, was fired from head of Harvard anyway.

    Differing hormone levels and their effects both within and between major races has a BIG impact on dating patterns as we APPROACH complete female freedom to chose entirely on her perception of “sexiness” of the man – as opposed to income security, etc.


  29. zorgon 10 —

    “SWPL = Stuff White People Like”

    Roissy’s pithy one phrase translation of that phrase was “what WHITER people like”. Which is really quite ironically amusing, when you start to grok the underlying meanings. Actually it can even lead to PC dissolving insights when you really do.

    If you’re still not on board, here’s an easier an more prosaic translation: stuff the young fashionably lefty elite, and those who aspire to same, like.

    It’s grounded in the observation that other races in America (except their few these days members who are madly trying to copy not just basics but the whole kit and caboodle) don’t like these things so much, or certainly not as much or in the same way. But wait, neither do e.g. “redneck” whites, or smaller town or rualish whites generally. The humor is based on broad and deep epiphanies through dead on cultural observations in post after post, about just how tribal and status whoring most of us are, especially certain sorts of people who generally hold themselves to be “above all that”. Oh and PC shibboleth after shibboleth is revealed for just how much it’s fundamentally based on group identification/inclusion and status whoring it really is. E.g. recyling. But goobs more.

    It’s a truly amusing blog that went massively viral soon after it appeared, solely on the basis of it’s dead on cultural observations and humor. The sole guy doing it is young a copywriter/screenwriter in Hollywood (from Canada) who’s got a book with a major advance about to come out on the backs of his blog. A talented nobody before. Oh — and very beta, at least before this hit. Big money on his still not being any kind of bedroom alpha. Just look at him. See the recycling post.


  30. Patrick, you need to step the fuck off ‘fore I blast you one. // Look, all this chest-beating and posturing does neither of us any good. It simply plays into Clio’s ego-gratification. Not that there’s anything wrong with that,

    Cool! Not one, but two phrases made famous by Seinfeld.


  31. Agree, dougjnn — I may be very white as far as race goes, but my SWPL score is not very high. In fact the SWPL list, with a few exceptions, is a good list of things that *annoy* me about leftist hipster types.


  32. Roissy prediction: Obama by fewer than 100,000 total votes.

    remember that the 2000 election, by this metric, was decided by a negative number of votes.

    i’m surprised that the mccain camp hasn’t made a bigger deal of obama’s middle name than they have thus far.


  33. i’m surprised that the mccain camp hasn’t made a bigger deal of obama’s middle name than they have thus far.

    I believe that McCain’s biggest motivation is not, as you’d think, to become a president. It’s being praised by the liberal press and high-ranking Democratic senators.


  34. 4 Peter “[Palin probably likes Alphas, moose hunting, shooting etc.] because she lives in Alaska.”
    === Boy howdy yeah. Anyone born into that lifestyle (brrr) who can’t adapt to it leaves as soon as they can, and people who move there and stay are embodiments of the term “self-selected.”
    What a great place Alaska must be for women who have a difficult time attracting men by cause of unfortunate morphology (not-so-girly genes as in heavy jaw, large frame, etc.). The male/female ratio there is radically skewed in womens’ favor, plus a whole lot of the males are too rough to desire or aspire to a Yuko Ogura anyway.

    12 Whiskey “There’s no credible evidence linking testosterone exposure in the womb to finger length in women (or jaw structure), much less testosterone exposure to “manly” traits.”
    Uh…all mammals are female by default, and the hormonal weather in the womb plays a big role in how prominently gender gets expressed in a given individual. Them ain’t skeeter bites on your chest, and if you take estrogen they’ll sprout.

    We tend to think of gender as being either/or, but in the real world it’s a continuum, albeit very strongly skewed away from androgeny. All wombs are bathed in both sex hormones; it’s the relative mix of them that so strongly influences jaw lines and the innate preference for GI Joe or Barbie.

    Dougjnn said in comment #28,
    “I’m talking about basic understand the diagrams level of understanding, not equations, etc.”
    In that spirit–strictly for scientific purposes, mind you–I offer you, Whiskey,this uproariously unscientific graphic matrix:

    Well, that actually wasn’t it, but since I did a sloppy job photoshoppin’ I wanted to show the original before presenting the mangled version. Here’s the chart:

    The vertical scale is how feminine/masculine the girl/man is. As you go left from the center for women and right from the center for men, the girliness/manliness increases. This graphic isn’t intended to show population distribution, but if it was you would need to view it inverted, e.g., Ogura and Ventura are in the tails.

    At the left end, you have the girls such as Yuko Ogura (whose bosom you are beholding) for whom their first few months in the womb were highly estrionic. What testosterone was present was totally emasculated. Its number of molecules was hopelessly outnumbered and just couldn’t deal with all the tea parties and kittens and giggling and tears.

    Just below the Yukos are the beautiful girls who are masculine enough to endure the brutalities of showbiz. The celebrity female is not a Yuko, but of course she’s hot.

    Quite a ways down from the celebs are the Sarah Palin types. They definitely like men and a great many men find them sexy at some level, but most are too intimidated by her to do anything more than flirt. She has a relatively high level of testosterone, such that she enjoys….well, you know, hunting caribou and stuff. Male models make her laugh. If she fantasizes about bdsm with women, she’s the top.

    Going further down, where the ratio of estrogen to testosterone is getting pretty low, we have women like contestant Amy.

    Can you imagine pumping gas on a dull day and then three minutes later you’re dashing onto a national TV stage? Surreal. Amy handled it like a man.
    Almost any man would do Amy given the right circumstances. When she wants to get laid, she gets laid. She doesn’t need to be a beauty, just passable.

    Down near the right tail of the female side, below the sea of girls who need to slip a bag over their head or beer goggles onto their partner, we have the dykes. When the female gym teacher sees those high school girls in the shower, she’s not thinking of hearts and flowers. She’s thinking of having her GNP worshipped and/or a strap-on, and how crimson a paddle would make those fair twitching young rumps.

    At the end of the female curve, in the vertical drop representing how few cases there are, we get into the tragic territory where the “girl’s” birth precipitated a passionate discussion between the obstetricians over what should go on the birth certificate. You don’t hear about sexually ambiguous people, not only because they’re rare, but also because no one *wants* to hear about them. Those poor folks avoid locker rooms and being on The Tonight Show, though you used to see them at Carnival sideshows (See the amazing Shemale!). When Roissy and others talk about the humanity of aborting defective fetuses to save the person a life iof purgatory, this is an example of what they’re talking about.

    Going over to the male side…well, at this point we’re in the middle, so these “men” do not need a paragraph of their own.

    Moving to the right, we’re out of the territory of increasingly less-girly girls and into relative dominance of testosterone. With a bit more T than E, we get to the males who are classifiable as such by what’s hangin’ but who, like their female counterparts in phys ed, have essentially zero appeal to the opposite sex. Ross Mathews, the person who interviewed Amy in the video link above, is the best of ‘em.

    Moving further to the right, we encounter the male counterpart to Amy, the nerds/geeks/omegas. As DA can attest, merely having youth and all your limbs is a quite different experience for a male than a comparable female; without game, merely possessing the equipment and not drooling on yourself will not get you laid.

    Between the manly manly men and the omegas are the great mass of men: Herbs, AFC’s, lesser betas, and the pretty boys who are the male counterparts to Sarah Palin. Again, these men are proof of how screwed (or not) males are who lack game. Although the lesser-undesirable of these men can get laid by lowering their standards (psychos, single mothers, fatties, fat single mother psychos), all the looks in the world won’t get such a guy within a parsec of the bed of a women who is evenly remotely close to him on the appearance ladder. Even money is limited in its appeal if the man has zero personality. Game is to men as looks are to women.

    At the top are the male gym teachers, firefighters, etc. and the Jesse Venturas These are macho men, and yes Whiskey, they were throwing back shots of T in the womb.

    A serious discussion of the sorts of things touched on above is the “Treatise of Love” (under “Links of Interest” on this page).

    Another great freebie (Google’ll take you right to it) is “Sex and Character” by Otto Weininger.

    P.S. to dougjnn: You’d be fun to exchange emails with. Shoot me one at my anon yahoo mail account if you like. The “at yahoo dit kahm” email is


  35. TC: *neenerneener*

    Okay. I know when I’m beaten. I think I’ll just step aside and let you move in.

    I will leave you, my victorious rival, with a musical coda to my now completed life with Clio:

    From Lee Michael’s classic song of the rejected heartbroken loser male, You Know What I Mean?

    Have to find myself. Another girl.
    Have to find myself. Another girl.
    Have to find myself. Another place.




  36. 35 PatrickH:

    There can be only one.

    My condolences.


  37. At the top are the male gym teachers, firefighters, etc. and the Jesse Venturas These are macho men, and yes Whiskey, they were throwing back shots of T in the womb.

    I am quite confident that there are male gym teachers, firefighters, etc. who enjoy taking it in the twins, as it were.


  38. I wouldn’t necessarily equate geeks with low testosterone; D&D and math are things very few women are into. Low-testosterone men are most likely artsy types and, of course, gay men, who are often quite successful with women (except, of course, that gay men aren’t interested). To account for game and explain the geek-jock divide, you need a third factor that has nothing to do with androgen/estrogen ratio. I’d argue that both geeks and alphas have high androgen levels, but of course only one is successful with women.


  39. Geeks have masculine brains (logic, systematizing) and feminine personalities (passive, timid).

    Artists have feminine brains (intuitive) and feminine personalities (expressive, passive-aggressive)

    Salesmen have feminine brains (“emotional intelligence”) and masculine personalities (assertive, aggressive)

    Jocks have masculine brains (common-sense) and masculine personalities (willful, confident)

    Leaders have a good balance of masculine in their brains (“people-smarts” and good decision-making skills) and personalities (assertive but also empathetic)


  40. Jocks have masculine brains, but I’m not sure that that’s tantamount to saying that they have common sense. The jock types I’ve known tend to be prone to the most self-destructive forms of behaviour, more so than any other group except perhaps the artists – the only thing the two groups have in common, though they express it differently: jocks do daredevil stunts with cars, motorbikes, or other vehicles; they pick fights with other men; they’ll get into outrageous binge-drinking (when not in training), and so forth. Not much common sense evident in that kind of thing, is there?

    No – I think jocks have a special kind of perhaps never-measured “body intelligence” – never measured I mean in the sense that I believe no one has found a way to measure it except when it is displayed in action. They know where their feet and hands are, how to make the best use of their assets (whether strength or speed or whatever); how to think on the spot, etc.



  41. Clio, you’re right, and you nicely expanded on my quickly-scribbled post about Jocks et al.

    When I wrote “common sense” I was grasping for a snappy word that would liken the Jock’s masculine brain to a Geek’s but not on th elatter’s plane of abstraction. But I didn’t think of one and lazily pressed “send.”

    What is clear to me with the Jock archetype (and this includes many of the enlited men I served with in the Army) is that they have a no-nonsense way of thinking, maybe better described as a kind of practical mind.


  42. PA: I like what you’ve got.

    You might be dealing with extroversion and agreeableness in the five-factor model, currently favored among psychologists in describing personality.
    Assume agreeableness tracks femininity (which is what most research pretty much shows).

    Thus salesmen=E+A+ (EF types in Myers-Briggs)
    geeks=E-A- (IT in MBTI)
    jocks=E+A- (ET in MBTI)
    artists=E-A+ (IF in MBTI)

    So the level of extroversion is important as well.

    Roissy might try reading about the five-factor model; I’d be curious to see how current theory maps onto his excellent intuitive observations about human behavior.


  43. Seriously, what is there to like in this virago?

    Roissy, I think your slant on Palin doesn’t make much sense.

    You “like” her, but you wouldn’t date her?

    Just why do you like her? What is there to like? That she’s for teaching creationism in public schools? That she’s against stem cell research? That she wanted to ban books from the Wasilla, Alaska public library?

    Seriously, one would think that a slick, hyper-ambitious career woman who neglects her 5 kids while walking through the halls of the Alaska statehouse in stilettos, tapping furiously on two BlackBerries at once, while her 16 year old daughter is fucking a boyfriend and having an ILLEGITIMATE FUCKING BABY with him, would be the apotheosis of everything right-wing, culturally conservative working class and evangelical voters would want in a VP candidate.

    And yet lemmings like Limbaugh and that cretin, Dobson, are salivating over Palin.

    My guess is that this woman is gonna really surprise these conservative elites, by massively turning off working class and middle class white MALE voters… you know, the pick-up, NASCAR-going, shotgun-shooting crowd.

    Those male voters won’t care that she wants to ban abortions even in cases of rape and incest, that she says global warming ain’t man-made, and that she thinks God told Dubya to invade Iraq.

    The fact is that those very male voters will be disgusted by her very shrew-like qualities — the ones that make her a right-wing carbon copy, mirror image, of everything they detest in women like…. oh, Hillary Clinton, for example.


  44. One point that has never come up here is the number of young men nowadays who, for want of any other way to test their masculine mettle is through extreme sports (not team sports) of one kind or another: racing mountain bikes, hang-gliding, surfing, etc.

    Many of the young men I worked with over the last nine years were nerds personified – techies with sociology degrees, of all things. These boys have no other outlets – they have girlfriends so they can’t be seduction artists; they have boring steady jobs so they can’t go out binge-drinking with the boys; they’re not in school any more so team sports aren’t really a practical option – but, young and vigorous, they still need some way to test themselves as men, and extreme sports fulfill that need for many of them. I’ve never heard of the “geek jock”, or the “techie stoner” as a stereotype, but that’s what a great many of these guys were, in some combination or other. Wonder if that’s a new social phenomenon?



  45. Wonder if that’s a new social phenomenon?

    Interesting. It sounds like a new phenomenon. But what did similar young married/employed men do 20+ years ago?

    More people smoked then, and that probably took the edge off one’s restlessness (I’m mostly facetious here)


  46. test their masculine mettle

    On the other hand, for most guys having a girlfriend or a wife (or girlfriend and a wife 🙂 ) plus a job does feel like they are passing the masculinity tests that life throws at them…

    Could the popularity of extreme sports be linked to a combination of sedentary childhoods and absent (divorced) or weak (sitcom dad) fathers?


  47. The sequence of comments above are hilarious — trying to shoehorn human diversity into a two-dimensional “masculine/feminine” model is absurd. Even four or five factors won’t do it.

    There’s enormous variance of human personalities, and at a deep level not all that much of it correlates strongly with what gender you are. But layered over that variance you have the crude effects of testosterone and estrogen — which are simply enormous in your teens and 20s, gradually lessening thereafter. Then add in socialization, differences in physical strength, and differences in sexual market conditions (because testosterone makes you uncontrollably and indiscriminately horny, women are always the in-demand sex), and things can start to look very different.


  48. 45 Clio:

    Your observations are spot-on. This phenomenon is especially apparent in the UFC, mixed martial-arts subculture. I myself train at one such gym and it’s quite funny to see how the guys fall into two categories: on the one hand you have the 2 digit IQ, neanderthal street thugs whose primary motivation and training methodology is “Must. Hurt. People.”, and then you got the “regular Joes”, middle to upper-middle class professionals, known to others in the culture as “fight nerds” who approach the combat arts in the manner a serious chess player would approach the game. Which suits me just fine as Brazilian jiu-jitsu is very much like chess with another person’s body.

    But truly, I’m a lover, not a fighter.

    Which reminds me Clio, is there anything we can do about the jpeg situation? That smattering of pixels on your blog, while promising, is really just a painful tease.

    Although, I do believe I see shades of Sondra Locke, no?

    I’ll show you mine if you show me yours….



  49. TC: Tupac, I love you. You are my alpha dog. You beat me fair and square with your brilliant and timely use of *neeeneener*–a master stroke for the ages that shall be sung to the young at Mystery Method Workshops and parties at the Playboy Mansion attended by no one but Neil Strauss look-alikes and two or maybe three New Jersey-born novice Bunnies. But…

    …Sondra Locke has this prognathous fricking acromegalic jaw. Retract the comparison of fair Clio to that, that, ape woman, or hostilities shall recommence!


  50. I’ve got nothing against extreme sports. Men need to face danger, and better this than war. At least the extreme sports guys only hurt themselves.


  51. MQ: no shit sherlock. I guess you’ve never heard of “types.”


  52. 50 PatrickH:

    Sondra Locke has this prognathous fricking acromegalic jaw.

    You’re right. I forgot about that. I suppose I was going more by “aura” or “feel”. Or maybe it was the eyes. I dunno. Blondes aren’t even my type.

    Retract the comparison of fair Clio to that, that, ape woman, or hostilities shall recommence!


    But what the hell do you expect when her “photo” looks like a hit of acid???


  53. People are capable of adapting several roles. Thatcher was supposedly quite feminine with her husband at home. He would lift the heavy furniture.


  54. Tupac, forgiven.

    But what the hell do you expect when her “photo” looks like a hit of acid???

    I hear you. I tried blowing that little sucker up…PIXELATED MADNESS ENSUED.


    What I’m saying is, don’t look at it too long and then try to drive heavy machinery.


  55. Clio, over here “tech student = binge drinker” is the most notorious techie stereotype. The first big project of many engineering students I’ve known was building a still. But then, this is Finland, so even female MENSA geek meetings are all about drinking.

    SFG, what Clio was reaching for with “body intelligence” clearly corresponds mostly to S/N in MBTI. So

    ESTP = jock
    ENTP = crazy dancing geek monkey


  56. I think we may have covered this before, Jaakkeli. The kind of “techie” people I’m thinking of are not engineers, or at any rate not the kind of engineers who build anything except computers. The kinds of engineers who design/build large buildings, sanitation systems, bridges, and roads are a different breed than the kind who design/build computers and design software. The former are more traditional macho/jock types who drink hard and chase women and don’t talk much. The latter tend not to be; they are usually geeks. That’s why I was surprised to discover that these geek fellows are smoking pot and racing steep hils on mountain bikes – though not usually at the same time, fortunately.



  57. I have a masculine digit ratio. I have no desire to hunt or run for political office, nor am I excessively competitive or aggressive. I agree with what others have stated here, I think her masculine-worship personality is more a symptom of her environment.


  58. what is SWPLs? Single white professional lemmines?


  59. bmc 59 —

    “what is SWPLs? Single white professional lemmines?”

    The expansion of the txt abbrv. is “Things White People Like”. It’s a truly hilarious blob that mocks people in a pretty much unique way — that obviously should have been done systematically long ago. It went viral on the internets a few months ago esp. among you know, white people, coming out of nowhere. One young very white person guy working in the screenwriting/copywriting side of Hollywood.

    Wait, you don’t know what it means? You must be REALLY white. (not) Well if your black that’s understandable, but …

    Now go google it and catch-the-fuck up.


  60. Brandy 58–

    Yeah, ok on your point. Rather agree.

    But what we all really want to know is are you as, umm, *hungry* as we’ve all confidently declaired Mrs. Palin is?


  61. PatrickH 11–

    “Maybe if the emotional stuff is there along with the rodgering and boffing and other general goings-on, then the emotional stuff becomes ultra-threatening. Dunno.”

    Yes I think so. And, if’s she’s doing it on the sneak tip it’s even more threatening, even supposing the husband never finds out or does and completely forgives her, after his betray devastation. Threatening because SHE is going to strong tendencies to lose her romantic feelings for her husband and real difficulty fully regaining them, as opposed to affection. I think it’s possible but I think it takes big time game. I’m assuming a good marriage where she got restless and wanted more excitement, or simply diversity, or new love emotions. The last is probably what she most wanted, unless she was historically a serious slut, or a bottled up one (not as common these days outside religiously conservative circles).

    As for the evo psych, the jealous emotions are there for sure and no doubt for those reasons. But we do have birth control, so overcoming or sexualizing them (which is definitely more than possible) make sense and won’t lead to losing her in whole or in part it’s an option. That’s a big IF and an enormous subject.


  62. Carl Sagan, alive?

    Check your FAQs!



  63. At least one of the TinyURL links in my comment #34 above died.

    The direct link to the Ross Mathews spot:

    The direct link to the chart:


  64. Sarah Palin is a bloodthirsty and unpleasant person by any standard. This said, clearly you can’t handle the idea a woman who is not meek and who is possibly more successful than you because you are an insecure man of modest abilities.


  65. WTF !!!! she’s even more manly than me fingerwise, I wonder what kind of thing she has down there