You Are NOT The Father

I was vegging out watching the cultural phenomenon that is Maury Povich’s Who’s The Daddy? specials. I can do this because I delegate all my work to underlings. This particular show was a treat — Maury had on girls who had been on previous Daddy shows and still hadn’t found the real daddy of their kids. One girl had brought two guys with her — numbers 7 and 8 — to see if either of them would pass/fail the paternity test as the father of her cursed child.

Needless to say, except for one glaring exception, the women were beastly. The real dregs of womanhood. One was so hideous the thing looked like a pumpkin placed on top a crumbling mound of feta cheese. The men were thuggish trash, all piercings, sloping brows, and vacant stares. The audience booed and cheered on cue. This is the modern version of the Roman Coliseum, with the physical bloodletting replaced by emotional bloodletting.

The girl who was currently testing numbers seven and eight for paternity of her future ward of the state had noticeably different reactions to the two guys on stage for the latest round. One guy barely muttered a word and looked like an alpha gangbanger. His eyes were beady and his face round. The other guy looked smarter, if smarts can be deduced by looking at a person. He was taller and better looking than the other guy, but not nearly as tough. Compared to the average Linux fanboy, he was an alpha, but next to the musclehead on his right, he was comparatively beta. He expressed some enthusiasm for assuming responsibility for the kid should he be proven to be the father. The alpha thug just shrugged his shoulder and smirked when asked what he would do if the kid turned out to be his.

Alpha was not the father. He jumped up and pumped his fist. A couple buddies greeted him on stage and they all chest bumped. Tongues were wagging. The girl didn’t seem too moved. When the next DNA test result was opened and the relatively beta good-hearted guy was declared free from 18 years of financial servitude, the girl totally lost it and ran screaming from the room.

It might’ve been staged, but if their reactions were close to the real deal, then it was obvious that women have a real fear… and a real need… for beta providers to help them raise their bastard children. When a child is sitting there in a stroller, this need is as encoded as the need to get fucked hard by a badass alpha.

I do not want to ever pay one red cent for any of these kids with my tax dollars. If they all die in the street it wouldn’t bother me one bit. I support exposure at birth.

I was rooting for the beta. In the flood of emotions, he may not have realized it at the time, but he dodged a bullet.





Comments


  1. It would have been interesting to she her reaction if the alpha had been declared the father before the negative result with the beta.

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  2. how many dudes did this chick rawdog in that very specific window of time? and if she was as nasty as you described, i’d be embarrassed to even be on that stage. head in hands, “yeah, i hit that.”

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  3. Yikes! See, not she.

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  4. I love these shows. I laugh and laugh and laugh when the women cry.

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  5. I once watched one of these shows with an EX, she said she feels so sorry for these women and most importantly the kids. I laughed and said I find the whole situation comical. She started yelling and I kept laughing at the TV and excitingly pointing out how hopeful the women looked at the chance at some money and how pitiful they looked afterward.

    As far as beta suckers – they’re needed by society. I stopped feeling bad for them as well. A society of all Alpha Males wouldn’t work for me. I’m quite happy knowing how much better it is meeting a woman in a serious relationship and not having to hear about why the girl in the next cube wears the ugliest clothes.

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  6. Wait, am I reading this right? These men were the 7th and 8th guys she has tried to pin as the daddy? Christ on a cracker.

    Her vagina must be an oozing crater of puss and unidentified semen.

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  7. This raises an interesting question. As the proportion of single males rises, particularly those with no real hope of wife and girlfriend, what happens to political support for single mothers and their kids?

    Particularly in a prolonged depression?

    There is after all, only so much money. Money not spent in taxes to support Single mothers and children can go to what single men want — savings, retirement, what have you. It’s not as if single men are invested in society.

    Will Married Women also support single mothers? They might if they want insurance for divorce, but higher taxes on their joint income means transfer of wealth from them to single mothers.

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  8. Your tax dollars will pay for them. Don’t like it? Too bad. You acquiesced to the fiction that the Constitution is open to interpretation by unelected judges. The government is just doing whatever it can, which is pretty near anything, to placate any group that whines loud enough.

    It’s not your kid? Nobody cares. It’s not your money either, if they want it.

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  9. Her vagina must be an oozing crater of puss and unidentified semen.

    god you turn me on…

    and FUCK having kids

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  10. @8 MarkD

    Great point. Your whining and bitching about the situation will get absolutely nothing.

    You want to have an intelligent discussion about equal rights for men, cuckolding and the lot? – Too bad, whatever chick, or in many cases other men, will simply say yeah but what about the risk of rape, men make more money etc.

    Going back to yesterday’s Roissy post…This is a feminist world. You have 3 options:
    1. You accept and deal with the opportunities created,
    2. You become a beta provider and fall in line.
    3. You keep bitching and moaning and get nothing done before getting screwed in the long run.

    Until a significant cultural change happens, more stories, articles about the issue from reputable news sources nothing will happen. So may as well accept it and look at it as an advantage. Like I mentioned above any chick in a long distance relationship can be had, and you don’t deal with her nightly bitching, just the moaning!

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  11. It’s not your kid? Nobody cares. It’s not your money either, if they want it.

    All too true. There was a “discussion” the other day about abolishing the 401K plan:

    http://www.usnews.com/blogs/capital-commerce/2008/10/23/would-obama-dems-kill-401k-plans.html

    Not your money is right. NAMs and losers need it so they have double digit numbers of future criminals and future welfare receipients. The goose that lays the golden egg is being taken out behind the woodshed. Hide your money if you can.

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  12. This is the modern version of the Roman Coliseum, with the physical bloodletting replaced by emotional bloodletting.

    Brilliant. Fucking beautiful.

    ChicNoir posted a Youtube link in a recent comment showing some chick on Maury who was on her 17th and 18th paternity test victim. And they were both negative.

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  13. Some part of the psyche revels in the exposition of karma. Yes, there is a price for your whoredom, for your deceit. And men feel this way because in this exchange, so often women do not ‘pay the price’. One can take one of two tacks for this: Comfort in divine justice; that in the End, they’ll get theirs. Or, you can take the other, that fairness and justice is just another social construction. These women are just at the mercy of the impulses that they are unaware of. They are less to be pitied and hated as they are to be reprogrammed. Of course, it’s easy to say ‘let them feel the burn’ behind the guise of Pavlovian reconditioning, but this is never fully free of the taint of sadism. I can’t say that I know how to feel on this other than the repulsion I feel at supporting the carelessness of others in a wide social contract (as opposed to family). But I can’t say I’d go as far as to wish the destruction of lives. Perhaps quarantine…

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  14. what would have been a good idea is to privatize social security.

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  15. A true alpha would have grabbed her by the hair and mouthfucked her on live tv after hearing that he was absolved from the responsibility of raising her beta child.

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  16. on October 29, 2008 at 7:41 pm Married But Cool

    This is Must See TV for those of you who haven’t once seen this series. Seriously, once would think the woman in question just learned that she lost a loved one to a tragic death. By definition, every woman who appears on this series is a bona fide slut, but also an uncomfortable representative for the millions of shitty women who look at their men and husbands as a paycheck.

    Seeing the men declared innocent is the equivalent of watching Boise State upset Oklahoma in the Fiesta Bowl.

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  17. I do not want to ever pay one red cent for any of these kids with my tax dollars. If they all die in the street it wouldn’t bother me one bit. I support exposure at birth.

    Agree with the sentiment, but unfortunately even mandatory paternity testing would only solve part of the problem.

    As long as there is a welfare state, we all pay when someone has a kid outside of wedlock and the mother and the real father don’t step up to the plate. Either a bogus father pays, or the government pays.

    And that’s on top of all the other free crap the government gives kids. Remember, even when a responsible married couple has a kid, even if they’re not on welfare or Medicaid, they get what is effectively welfare in the form of the public school system. Those of us who don’t have kids pay for their kids in the form of property taxes. (Or, increasingly, other taxes, because too many courts have decided it is “unfair” for education dollars to come from local property taxes.)

    It’s self-perpetuating because these kids are also used as excuses for why we *need* the welfare state and need to make it bigger. Remember the S-CHIP debate? The basic leftist argument for expanding the S-CHIP argument was: “how can you deny health care to a CHILD? that’s just evil!” Never mind that there were states allowing childless adults to sign up for this “children’s health insurance program.” That would be applying logic to what was basically a matter of emotion.

    If we want to stop this crap, we have to attack not just feminism but also the welfare state.

    We need the general attitude to be that when a woman has a child she can’t afford, that is in large degree *her* fault and her responsibility, rather than the father’s or the government’s fault or reponsibility.

    Abortion is legal. If you’re pregnant and you can’t afford to support the kid, GET A FUCKING ABORTION. The father has zero control over whether the mother chooses to get an abortion or not. If the father wants an abortion and the mother refuses, why do we put the father on the hook?

    I am even inclined towards mandatory abortion in these cases. My modest proposal: the parents of every child should be required to post a $100K bond. If the parents fail to take adequate care of their kid, this money would be seized and used to pay for the kid on their behalf. Responsible parents would get every cent back with interest (think of it as a savings program for college tuition). If you can’t afford to post the bond, sorry, no kids for you.

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  18. Maybe we should consider reviving the Spartan tradition of throwing babies off a cliff if they’re deformed, misshapen, sickly, of unknown parentage, or the product of paternal discrepancy. I wonder how women would react to that?

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  19. Let me give one more plug for a chance to put the slapdown on some feminists – equalwrites.blogspot.com

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  20. I’m kind of disappointed in Whiskey @ #7. He usually finds a way to tie in every post to the coming race war. Likewise I’m guessing Peter’s absence means he can’t find a way to work hairy cooch into the discussion.

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  21. Of course, it’s easy to say ‘let them feel the burn’ behind the guise of Pavlovian reconditioning, but this is never fully free of the taint of sadism. I can’t say that I know how to feel on this other than the repulsion I feel at supporting the carelessness of others in a wide social contract (as opposed to family). But I can’t say I’d go as far as to wish the destruction of lives. Perhaps quarantine…

    Undesirables no longer “feel the burn” anymore because liberals have decided that that it is “unfair,” “meanspirited” and “oppressive” for them to learn or experience the negative from one’s mistakes and that society and those who are productive must pay for those mistakes(as it is the fault of the productive anyway). In fact, liberals have set up a system of rewards for parasitic, anti-social malcontents.
    As St. Augustine said, all true education begins with physical punishment. I’d add mental punsihment just to be sure though. Nothing wrong with a little sadism either. It takes a hard heart to deal with this sort of problem. What will the “children” of these careless savages inflict upon the innocent? Murder, rape, assault, theft…. and worse. They(and their “parents”) are the ones that have broken the social contract. Parasites deserve no pity. And some lives should be destroyed. This serves 2 purposes. First, it rids society of a problem. Secondly, it serves as a warning to others.

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  22. I always suspected Povich had these programs on to suppress the out-of-wedlock birthrate of the underclass, specifically the black one, because that is usually who is on his television show the times Ive seen it. When men see that they are proven by DNA testing to be the father, and acknowledge that 21% of their gross (before tax) income is going to be taken from them EVERY WEEK (the way it is in my state), the viewers in the TV audience get the message, parenthood sucks if you didn’t plan it and want it with your partner.

    I get the feeling……………….. no fuck that, I KNOW that many of these housing-project and Section 8 young women are TRYING to get pregnant so that they get a Government-paid-for apartment, WIC payments, AFDC payments, free health care, and whatever other goodies the taxpayer has to foot the bill for.

    Welfare started out as a noble idea in our collective heads. We thought we were aiding women whose men had left them. This was back when most of us thought females were usually pure in their motives and victimized by thuggish males. We know better now, and know women will act like “ho’s” and get pregnant on purpose just to have a free place to live and a check every month.

    Pat Buchannan’s idea in the early nineties, of orphanages, was the best one Ive ever heard in how to deal with women who get pregnant with no man in their lives on purpose. If she cant afford the kid, you dont reward that behavior, you take the kid away and have it professionally raised in an orphanage while the woman, who is allowed to visit, has to make HER OWN WAY in the world by getting a GODDAMNED JOB just like the rest of us. No free house, no WIC, no food stamps, no AFDC, no social services, no free health care, none of that shit that the rest of us pay for. Only then would you see an end to welfare mommas with five damned kids and no dads around. It would have worked.

    Anything on earth you subsidize, you get more of. If you inflate the price of pumpkins, farmers will allot a bunch of good earth better spent on other vegetables or fruits, to pumpkins and we will have an overabundance of them every halloween. If you subsidize ho’s getting pregnant out of wedlock with babies with no father, you will get ho’s who are willing to fuck any guy to get a baby and 18 years of government handouts. Its like leaving cheese out on your back deck and not expecting the flies to come.

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  23. 20 T
    Peter knows these women got the Glory.

    T. or Roissy (or Half Sigma if you’re listening),
    one of you should write a post about the hypocrisy of the abortion debate, and how no one, neither right nor left, is suggesting real solutions to lowering the teen pregnancy rate.

    The right promotes abstinence to the people who’ll have none of it. And the left throws tons of condoms at the problem, expecting the stupid teenage parents to be conscientious enough to quit rawdoggin’ it. Worse is how the leftists then deem themselves as ‘the realists’ in the debate.

    The solution is the promotion of subdermal implants or intrauterine devices, devices that are professionally installed that prevent pregnancy for years, with no action required on the patient’s part. The insertion procedure would be covered by taxpayer dollars for unmarried women. The procedure would be optional, but it would be just as heavily promoted as condoms are.

    Extraction would be covered by taxpayer dollars as well, unless it was inserted while the woman was married.

    The left would call this scheme racist, eugenic, hitlerian, etc. It would also object that the device doesn’t prevent the transmission of VDs (true of course), so sponsoring the procedure would cause a rise in VD infection rates. Probably true, but you get what you deserve. The right can’t be seen condoning sex out of wedlock, and doesn’t want to be tarred as racist.

    If you honestly want to reduce the number of abortions had per year, this, or something like it, is the solution. Otherwise, you’re a liar who has other interests at heart.

    Info on the devices: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrauterine_device
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jadelle
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_birth_control_methods

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  24. The audience booed and cheered on cue. This is the modern version of the Roman Coliseum, with the physical bloodletting replaced by emotional bloodletting

    So SAD Yet So True!

    Roissy, you could of easily been on that show had that girl from two posts ago become pregnant. Maybe you will start strapping up.

    the girl totally lost it and ran screaming from the room
    They^^^ always do and it angers me. If only she ran screaming when that raw peen was making its’ way to one of her three orifices.

    If they all die in the street it wouldn’t bother me one bit. I support exposure at birth
    Ah the anonymity of the blogosphere lets one say something which they wouldn’t dare say in good company. Anyone of us (SMDH) reading this blog could of easily been the child of one of those women. I have real empathy for the children who come out of such madness. It’s not always about IQ, race etc… Sometimes people come out of such F-up circumstances that it takes someone with a strong will to succeed to overcome the cesspool of their family & neighborhood.

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  25. If they all die in the street it wouldn’t bother me one bit. I support exposure at birth

    You know you really need your ass kicked for this. Animus that ^^^^is a forum of abortion right???

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  26. JKC- If I’m not mistaken, they take all of the guys who went there in a 21 day period. The sad thing is, these women are not real prostitutes. Real women of the night(-drug addicts) would protect themselves. They are just the neighborhood girls who the guys from the block pass around. The dangerous thing is, many of these guys have girlfriends who they raw dog also. Now you can see how diseases are spread with ease in some areas.

    The poor girlfriend has no idea that her private area is on fire from the funky dragon (making her infertile) that her boyfriend picked up from the neighborhood girl who caught it from one of the guys around the corner. FYI, this is one reason why I don’t trust me and I always have my own protection. If you are not my husband, you can’t tap nothing raw over here

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  27. on October 29, 2008 at 9:03 pm Patrick Bateman

    I fucking love Maury. “Dat baby don’t look like me!

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  28. 17 zorgon

    Remember, even when a responsible married couple has a kid, even if they’re not on welfare or Medicaid, they get what is effectively welfare in the form of the public school system. Those of us who don’t have kids pay for their kids in the form of property taxes.

    This is faulty accounting. Kids of responsible married couples are investments; they tend to throw off positive externalities to the rest of society, so it is not unreasonable to at least indirectly subsidize them. Who were you expecting to produce the goods and services you intend to consume in your retirement, anyway? Robots? (Well, actually, we should be investing more in automation and less in unskilled labor, but that’s another debate for another time.)

    That said, the form of the subsidy could use a lot of improvement. Fuck the teachers’ union and their dogmatic opposition to accountability.

    Abortion is legal. If you’re pregnant and you can’t afford to support the kid, GET A FUCKING ABORTION. The father has zero control over whether the mother chooses to get an abortion or not. If the father wants an abortion and the mother refuses, why do we put the father on the hook?

    I am even inclined towards mandatory abortion in these cases.

    18 DF

    Maybe we should consider reviving the Spartan tradition of throwing babies off a cliff if they’re deformed, misshapen, sickly, of unknown parentage, or the product of paternal discrepancy. I wonder how women would react to that?

    I don’t think this is feasible. Most people are not mentally sophisticated enough to understand that even murder is defined by social convention, rather than some absolute prohibition handed down by God. Given the limited number of bytes of cultural programming they can handle, I’d rather err on the side of an overly broad definition of murder than an overly narrow one. You’ve mentioned that you may have made more enemies than friends in the process of focusing on making money, so I think you’d concur.

    So I don’t expect we can do much better than the status quo on abortion (though it would be nice if the lawyers refactored their code… “penumbra”, wtf).

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  29. “I do not want to ever pay one red cent for any of these kids with my tax dollars. If they all die in the street it wouldn’t bother me one bit. I support exposure at birth.”

    Oh Roissy… you’re slowly seducing me with your words.

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  30. Being that the woman was super fat white trash, I bet she had a massive GNP. Its probably filled with all kinds of great aromas.

    Nothing like a GNP holding in the smell of syphilis and semen right Peter?

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  31. 22 z

    Pat Buchannan’s idea in the early nineties, of orphanages, was the best one Ive ever heard in how to deal with women who get pregnant with no man in their lives on purpose. If she cant afford the kid, you dont reward that behavior, you take the kid away and have it professionally raised in an orphanage while the woman, who is allowed to visit, has to make HER OWN WAY in the world by getting a GODDAMNED JOB just like the rest of us. No free house, no WIC, no food stamps, no AFDC, no social services, no free health care, none of that shit that the rest of us pay for. Only then would you see an end to welfare mommas with five damned kids and no dads around. It would have worked.

    Anything on earth you subsidize, you get more of. If you inflate the price of pumpkins, farmers will allot a bunch of good earth better spent on other vegetables or fruits, to pumpkins and we will have an overabundance of them every halloween. If you subsidize ho’s getting pregnant out of wedlock with babies with no father, you will get ho’s who are willing to fuck any guy to get a baby and 18 years of government handouts. Its like leaving cheese out on your back deck and not expecting the flies to come.

    Totally agree with this. The hard part, though, is figuring out how to actually implement such a policy. Buchanan is not very good at winning votes.

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  32. on October 29, 2008 at 9:24 pm ironrailsironweights

    Her vagina must be an oozing crater of puss and unidentified semen.

    It’s going to be a long time before I can get that image out of my mind.

    I was going to speculate about the, ahem, grooming habits of the women on this show, but they sound so gross I think I’ll pass.

    Peter

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  33. 27 DoJ:

    This is faulty accounting. Kids of responsible married couples are investments; they tend to throw off positive externalities to the rest of society, so it is not unreasonable to at least indirectly subsidize them.

    Maybe. I’ve seen people of various political views throw around a lot of unsubstantiated claims on this topic, and not much rigorous analysis.

    I don’t see anyone saying that we should (only, primarily, to a greater extent) subsidize high-IQ kids, for example, even though it seems obvious enough that high-IQ kids are likely to have much greater positive externalities. And below a certain IQ the externality is most clearly negative on average; the only question is what that number is.

    Also, the mere existence of a externality does not by itself justify a Pigovian tax or subsidy. Even if we take a purely utilitarian perspective, we have to ask: does the deadweight loss from the externality exceed the deadweight losses almost certain to result from the imperfectly designed tax or subsidy? (See public choice theory.) A simple example: education may have a positive externality, but if we pay for an education subsidy using an income tax, we have to account for the costs of the income tax. If we then funnel those income tax dollars to teachers’ unions (who in turn lobby for more tax dollars) rather than to, say, school vouchers, the calculation comes out worse still.

    In a region where property values from house to house are all pretty similar, a property tax to pay for education is about the closest thing you’ll get to a “head tax.” If everyone’s house is worth about $250K and everyone pays a 3% property tax, the property tax is basically a flat assessment of $7500 per year per household. (These numbers are roughly in line with my area.) A head tax is one of the more efficient forms of taxation, and so a local property tax to finance education is not horribly objectionable to me. But then people whine that their property taxes are too high, and then the state doesn’t want to cut spending, so instead they shift the tax burden to other areas. For example, in Texas, there was a significant tax shift from school property taxes to state-assessed business taxes in the last few years. They didn’t really cut taxes, they just shifted them from local to state and from visible (property taxes that every homeowner pays) to hidden (a business tax that only business owners know about). Again… see public choice theory. Smart economists can devise a smart policy, but that doesn’t mean that a smart policy can ever actually get enacted in the real world.

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  34. @21 Drained: The great irony is that modern liberalism, drudges up ‘unfair’, when ‘fair’ really has no meaning outside of context. It’s 100% relative. And yet the post-modernist droves seem to feel that fairness is objective. A smaller percentage remit ‘might makes right’, which sits very uncomfortably in the seat of history.

    @24 chicnoir
    I assume you meant ‘form’ instead of ‘forum’. Abortion is legally defined as termination of a fetus. So, no, it’s not abortion. What roissy suggests is gracious euthenasia, hard eugenics, or just outright murder, depending on who you ask.

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  35. zorgon saidAnd that’s on top of all the other free crap the government gives kids. Remember, even when a responsible married couple has a kid, even if they’re not on welfare or Medicaid, they get what is effectively welfare in the form of the public school system. Those of us who don’t have kids pay for their kids in the form of property taxes. (Or, increasingly, other taxes, because too many courts have decided it is “unfair” for education dollars to come from local property taxes.)
    I don’t have a problem with paying taxes. Visit a third world country and it becomes evident why it’s important for those “who have” to pay taxes.
    You should take a look at a second level country like Brazil* and you will see why paying taxes is important. The wealthy in Brazil are under constant threat of kidnapping. The Brazilian wealthy often travel by helicopter to protect their person. I’ve also stories read about poor street children being executed by the police. We are talking very young children btw. Have any of you seen City of Gods? Think the very young children who killed lil Zeke. There is a reason Western European countries like Sweden and the Netherlands are very safe places to live.

    Abortion is legal. If you’re pregnant and you can’t afford to support the kid, GET A FUCKING ABORTION
    attack animus^^^:(

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  36. T said:I’m kind of disappointed in Whiskey @ #7. He usually finds a way to tie in every post to the coming race war. Likewise I’m guessing Peter’s absence means he can’t find a way to work hairy cooch into the discussion.

    *runs over to give T a big hug and a kiss after legs stop shaking*
    Oh T, I do believe you have made me moist. I thought I was the only one who noticed Whiskey’s 300 like fantasies.

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  37. Animus- but* you don’t agree with him, do you?

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  38. z
    I always suspected Povich had these programs on to suppress the out-of-wedlock birthrate of the underclass, specifically the black one, because that is usually who is on his television show the times Ive seen it

    Actually, I’ve seen blk,white, and Hispanic women on that show. The only small difference I’ve noticed is white women need DNA paternity tests for their boyfriends/husbands family members more so than other groups. There are lose irresponsible women in every group. How else to do you think most of you get laid.

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  39. Z said:Welfare started out as a noble idea in our collective heads. We thought we were aiding women whose men had left them

    One of the worse things welfare did was break up families.

    Pat Buchannan’s idea in the early nineties, of orphanages, was the best one Ive ever heard in how to deal with women who get pregnant with no man in their lives on purpose. If she cant afford the kid, you dont reward that behavior, you take the kid away and have it professionally raised in an orphanage while the woman, who is allowed to visit, has to make HER OWN WAY in the world by getting a GODDAMNED JOB just like the rest of us

    This is a good idea^^^.

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  40. @chicnoir:
    Do I agree with roissy? I see his point. Detriment to society, resource drain. In virtually all other realms of law, that which you cannot afford to be responsible for is subject to seizure. I don’t know how much of what he’s saying is hyperbole. But strictly speaking, I already said my opinion in post 13. Intervention over termination. If you want to argue with him, look to Jonathan Swift.

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  41. This wise men who put up child support and alimony did it for many reasons, one is rarely mentioned. In a rational society men would be more careful about who they had sex with, and who they got married to, when there are stiff sanctions for divorce or producing babies out of wedlock. Since according to blogs such as these, men are so sensible and women are not. No one knows how true that was, but it now makes economic sense for strivers to target wealthy men that can serially pay off ex-wives, or pay $10,000 a month child support. At the bottom of the barrel, a child for the local thug brings some prestige amongst fellow bottom feeders, so the choice is not irrational.

    As for the “players” who think they are scot free, not so fast the game is just starting. Each year millions of unattached women cross thirty, many of them hot looking but with a load of baggage and high city mileage. Definitely not the A-list for Alphas in the same age range, but very bangeable for players. It is only a matter of time before the culture fully spills over to yuppiedom. Ask Tom Brady, he’ll tell ya.

    The removal of the stigma of out-of-wedlock kids is the root of the culture. However if a stigma was put back on such children, many women would be less keen on genital sex which would distress many a single guy.

    Can’t eat your cake and have it kids.

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  42. Sex education(complete) should be mandatory.

    Animus#39- Thanks for answering. I was curious as to how you felt about what Roissy wrote.
    If you want to argue with him, look to Jonathan Swift.

    If you want to argue with him, look to Jonathan Swift

    I don’t like to argue. I’m a submissive young woman.

    I agree Benito Hoover.

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  43. WHAT “Race War” T?

    Povich mines the class-war within the White audience, showing low-class, blue collar, mostly white types for ridicule/amusement. However you could find the same thing among the upper-classes, just with better lawyers (see Edwards, Paterson, and Spitzer). Edwards is just as tawdry. If anything White audiences prefer not to deal with the reality of the Black Urban core, which is even worse (90% illegitimacy rate) and how rapidly both Suburban Black and Whites approach that rate (from 4% illegitimacy in 1965 to 41% now, for Whites nationally, compared to 24% in 1965 to 70% nationally for Blacks: Source, “Racist” Juan Williams, “racist” WSJ).

    [The tabs indeed feed the appetite for laughing at tawdry celebrities, be it Britney Spears or Anne Hathaway or Lindsay Lohan.]

    The coalition of Blacks, Hispanics, feminists, gays, single mothers and what have you in Western societies is pretty well established. In Europe, substitute Muslims for Blacks and Hispanics. Otherwise the same social dynamics that support the Welfare state are universal across the West: White elites, using “purchased/bribed” minority votes, and control of the Media, Legal, and other professions create a Welfare State.

    That provides mostly a sinecure for guys like Ayers (son of the CEO of Commonwealth Edison), and crumbs for the “bribed” minority groups, plus some social policies for their coalitions.

    Which depends on two things: 1. Continued good economic times to avoid hard choices about money and funding; 2. Lack of a populist revolt in politics to transfer money to THEM instead of the Welfare State coalition partners.

    The coalition is FRAGILE, even if long-lasting in the prosperity of 1968-now.

    Money, for example, for single mothers, could be spent on other things, like say tax refunds or something along those lines. Palin’s rebating the Alaskan oil royalties to every Alaskan was very popular and populist. Also in a depression, historically the successful coalitions have excluded minorities from Welfare spending to maximize spending on THEIR coalitions. FDR and the AFL excluded Blacks from Labor Unions, particularly the Railroads, and deported Mexicans, requiring citizenship for New Deal programs. Shameful perhaps, but winning politics if you are counting votes.

    Moreover, the natural progression of Welfare Statism is seizure of elites property. There is always someone, lacking a ruthless Stalin or Mao, to argue that David Geffen’s mansions, yachts, etc., or perhaps Will Smith’s, would be better distributed among the majority groups. This is the case in Indonesia and Malaysia with the native groups and Diaspora Chinese. “Spread the Wealth” generally well … spreads.

    In the US there is hardly going to be a “race war” but Populism is a historic fact of life: Jackson, Polk, Lincoln, Grant, TR, FDR, Truman, Ike, LBJ, arguably Carter in his first campaign, Reagan, and arguably Clinton and Bush (at least in the first campaign). Populism is all about transferring money/power to the largest group, and screwing over everyone else.

    It was Bill Clinton, after all, who “ended Welfare as we know it” when he got in trouble after HillaryCare and ran against Sistah Souljah. Populism works. Since it’s all about slicing the pie for maximum patronage benefit.

    It is a fact that no Western nation has had “Affirmative Action” style policies in a Welfare State during an extended recession/depression. That’s just a fact … though doubtless a “racist” fact.

    Like


  44. whiskey, that was just a friendly joke, man. it didn’t actually require a serious answer!

    Like


  45. Let me add, the problem of single-motherhood is worldwide.

    In the UK, over 51% of births are single mothers. In Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and the Netherlands, the same. In Iceland it approaches this … and Iceland has almost no non-natives.

    It is also a huge change over time. The White rate in 1965 was only 4%, and Blacks were only 24%.

    The problem is … women PREFER single motherhood, if they can afford it. The Welfare state is only PARTIALLY responsible. Rising women’s incomes, and social freedom, and more free societies (all good things in and of themselves) allow women to have single motherhood as their choice. More and more WHITE women are choosing this, not the stereotypical uneducated, poor, Black ghetto living woman, but educated, White, professional women.

    It has advantages: all the Alpha chasing women want, kids on their own terms, and no compromises with a messy and resentful Beta male. Having it all.

    If we did away with the Welfare state, the Black and Hispanic illegitimacy rate would go down over time in the urban and poor cores, but there would be little effect on the White rate which is rapidly approaching 50%.

    Rising women’s incomes, social freedom, independence, will ALWAYS create single mothers, absent social constraints on both men and women’s sexuality. This is proven time and again throughout the West.

    Collapse of the traditional culture under extreme mobility, mass-media, and urban anonymous living has been greater in some communities (Black Urban Core) and lesser among others (White/Black suburban inhabitants). It is however collapsing in all communities.

    I assume Povich appeals to those who retain enough traditional morality to laugh at the people on exhibition.

    Like


  46. That’s OK T.

    I do think our traditional welfare-state alliance model is collapsing. I don’t see the money to pay for it and I don’t see the “glue” that traditional culture provides to mitigate pure identity politics plays that populism entails.

    Like


  47. I like Whiskey. He and I don’t agree on much but he is alright. He has never laid into me and I tease him often. Maybe he gives me a break since he knows I’ m a baby. I will add that he has a real alpha quality in that he is not overly sensitive.

    Like


  48. @45: Whiskey –

    I think that’s why Obama winning may be a good thing. He and the Dem supermajority in the Congress will hopefully push things so far that there is a rebellion at the polls in the next four years and a serious scaling back of the welfare state. We may be third world by that time, but oh well…

    Like


  49. *runs over to give T a big hug and a kiss after legs stop shaking*
    Oh T, I do believe you have made me moist.

    Ha. I didn’t even have to mention any licking! :p

    Like


  50. Whiskey said:Povich mines the class-war within the White audience, showing low-class, blue collar, mostly white types for ridicule/amusement. However you could find the same thing among the upper-classes, just with better lawyers (see Edwards, Paterson, and Spitzer). Edwards is just as tawdry.

    *shakes head in agreement*

    The rich get away with so much dirt. Oh how I dream of being rich one day.

    Like


  51. on October 29, 2008 at 11:19 pm Dave from Hawaii

    Remember, even when a responsible married couple has a kid, even if they’re not on welfare or Medicaid, they get what is effectively welfare in the form of the public school system.

    Welfare?

    Try State sponsored indoctrination.

    The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America

    The Underground History of American Education

    Like


  52. Listen, 10 cold winters without welfare checks would pretty much straighten things out. I am not worried. It’s comin’.

    Like


  53. Ha. I didn’t even have to mention any licking! :p

    LOL for that comment, no licking needed.

    Here is video proving your favorite politician. He is indeed an alpha with the women. Michele was no where around, otherwise she would of shut those girls down with a quickness. .

    <a http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=550_1210277599

    Like


  54. Needless to say, except for one glaring exception, the women were beastly. The real dregs of womanhood.

    Given the easy accessibility to porn, why are these men still bothering to have sex with such ugly women? Maybe more men need to sack up and have standards and hold out for better looking women.

    but if their reactions were close to the real deal, then it was obvious that women have a real fear… and a real need… for beta providers to help them raise their bastard children

    One could argue that the poorer women would prefer the alpha male thug drug dealer due to his ability to possibly rise up in the drug trade and generate more income versus some hard-working beta who works at Wal-Mart as a supervisor.

    I once watched one of these shows with an EX, she said she feels so sorry for these women and most importantly the kids.

    When I watch with my niece and nephew, it’s a mix of emotions. It’s funny to see the reactions, but it’s sad noting that these men and women engage in dangerous unprotected sex. Interestingly, I use the show to teach my niece and nephew the benefits of marriage.

    Like


  55. opps

    *Here is a video of your favorite politician. This video proves he is an alpha with the ladies*

    <a http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=550_1210277599&p=1

    Like


  56. Polygamy would solve a lot of problems about single mothers, child support and such.

    Like


  57. In the UK, over 51% of births are single mothers.

    Is it possible that the high birth rate is due to a small birthrate by married middle class women in general when compared to their poorer counterpart? It’s also possible that committed couples are getting pregnant first, then marrying afterwards or just not choosing to marry at all due to the expense of having a “proper” wedding.

    It has advantages

    Isn’t the downside that alpha males will use the single mom as the lowest class of the pump and dump, while a sizable number of beta males are uninterested in raising somebody else’s kids, especially if mommy has them from multiple dads or former criminals?

    We may be third world by that time, but oh well…

    Or we’ll have increased federal spending that trickles down into a job for David Alexander, job security for his friends and family members, and of course, new rail lines to explore. 🙂

    Like


  58. I will tell you the real reasons why most women don’t want to get/stay marri

    Like


  59. chic noir –

    Like


  60. whiskey: It is a fact that no Western nation has had “Affirmative Action” style policies in a Welfare State during an extended recession/depression. That’s just a fact … though doubtless a “racist” fact.

    The 1990s recession was pretty brutal on many northern European countries but it seems to have barely slowed the nuttiness. It was bad on Sweden… no effect on multicultism. In Finland it the 1990s depression was worse than the 1930s one, so that’s what we call the Great Depression, and that’s when we started turning into another nuttyland. The obvious, insane contradiction of turning up importation of refugees who went straight to welfare while *everything* was being scaled back convinced some that now they could speak out… and that just turned into a giant media purge with some of the biggest names in the country losing their jobs.

    There’s no guarantee that a crisis cancels multiculturalism. It’s guaranteed to bring out angry voices – but that can be just used by the left to justify repression of critics and to go even further with their policies.

    Like


  61. on October 30, 2008 at 12:32 am ironrailsironweights

    Maybe we should consider reviving the Spartan tradition of throwing babies off a cliff if they’re deformed, misshapen, sickly, of unknown parentage, or the product of paternal discrepancy.

    If we were to revive Spartan traditions, men would have to run around corn-holing each other.

    Peter

    Like


  62. I fall into a profound depression every time Jaakkeli mentions that there are refugees in Finland. I spent a couple of days in Helsinki in 2001 and didn’t see one person who didn’t look Finnish or hear any language that didn’t sound like Finnish or Swedish.

    But he’s probably right. The ruling classes in the West are hellbent on population replacement, and no recession will phase them. May demons rape them eternally for this crime against humanity.

    Just whatever you do, don’t tell me that FinnAir went to shit too. They seemed to be the only Western airline that still had gorgeous stewardesses.

    Like


  63. BTW if whiskey replies, you should all remember to blame T for turning this into another death of the West thread.

    Like


  64. Actually, Denmark, Sweden, Norway and others have finally tightened their refugee policies. That’s why they’re all coming here.

    We had an election last Sunday, a massive defeat for most of the left and a huge victory for a tiny nationalist party that used to be considered a joke, a simple victory for simply for being the first party to actually take a stand on multiculturalism. The mainstream media and parties were of course instantly ready to declare that the people voted wrong and that nothing will change.

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  65. BTW if whiskey replies, you should all remember to blame T for turning this into another death of the West thread.

    It was just supposed to be a harmless joke, I swear! Don’t blame me! 😦

    Like


  66. @44 Whiskey-

    I think you’ve hit upon something important to point out – most people only seem to exert as much effort as they have to in order to live relatively decent lives. That’s the fundamental premise of your post, and I agree wholeheartedly. Let’s face it, marriage is a damn long haul, even with someone you like to be around. It should come as no surprise that once women were granted greater freedom and opportunity, more of them would forgo the difficulty of getting along with the same person for 50 years. Same holds true for men, of course. This has an implication that will be disturbing for some – greater freedom doesn’t necessarily lead to greater societal success, or general happiness of society’s members. It’s only in the last 50 years or so that modern societies have thrown off the physical constraints to the freedom we take for granted today. Yet modern human civilization has existed for 5000+ years without these freedoms, and that lack of freedom has molded people to be what they are today. Thanks again for the post.

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  67. Excellent comment Fabian.

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  68. The obvious, insane contradiction of turning up importation of refugees who went straight to welfare while *everything* was being scaled back

    Even as the de facto liberal here would admit that importing high numbers of refugees to live off welfare while the natives sacrifice is bad policy in general. Hell, one could argue that European nations absorbing in sizable numbers of immigrants was a foolish idea given the inability of Europeans to deal with other Europeans in the pre-World War II era. I mean, the only real exception you could give is to countries like France and England that had large colonial empires spanning different races and ethnicities, and even those countries have issues with some groups.

    BTW, it seems that everybody is complaining about the Somali immigrants. My cousins in Canada have nothing but negative things to say about them, as legal non-political immigrants they felt cheated since they refugees are pretty much given *everything* to survive while they had to build up their own lives from their own money.

    Fun Question: If we’re going to have the urge to “save” people, is it cheaper to just give foreign aid and intervene in third world nations to prevent future refugee crisis?

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  69. Fun Question: If we’re going to have the urge to “save” people, is it cheaper to just give foreign aid and intervene in third world nations to prevent future refugee crisis?

    No. Because foreign aid fails for the same reason welfare fails here. Lots of administrative waste, misappropriation of funds, fraud, and the solution of handouts undermines self-reliance in the beneficiaries. If someone considers domestic welfare an abject failure, why would they support international welfare?

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  70. chicnoir: it’s City of God, not City of Gods

    Like


  71. on October 30, 2008 at 2:06 am tastexperience

    >>>Excellent comment Fabian.

    seconded.

    Like


  72. 32 zorgon

    I don’t see anyone saying that we should (only, primarily, to a greater extent) subsidize high-IQ kids, for example, even though it seems obvious enough that high-IQ kids are likely to have much greater positive externalities. And below a certain IQ the externality is most clearly negative on average; the only question is what that number is.

    This was actually attempted in Singapore in 1984 (yeah, fitting year…). Predictably, it was an enormous flop, and was abolished within a year. (Incidentally, they paid $10k to low-income/education women who voluntarily sterilized themselves; only 56 chose to do so during the program’s lifetime.)

    So, I think the best the government can do is to (i) align incentives correctly by normally offering minimal or no direct subsidies to parents, and perhaps more importantly, (ii) protect the kids who are born anyway thanks to poor parental restraint/planning (or scheming by the mother, or a genuine birth control failure) by offering an exception to (i) conditional on sterilization of the parents. The majority will not accept a return to death by exposure, and I don’t think it should. (Full disclosure: I may be a little biased on that last point. My mom only exists because my biological maternal grandmother’s birth control failed.)

    …Smart economists can devise a smart policy, but that doesn’t mean that a smart policy can ever actually get enacted in the real world.

    Yeah, but it’s still important to try to minimize how dumb the enacted policies are, since we don’t get to escape to Libertopia (and I don’t think I’d want to, anyway). Anyway, I don’t think we disagree much on policy — honestly, I wouldn’t mind seeing the existing K-12 public school system nuked so we can restart from scratch, so I think it’s safe to say I’m not a fan of throwing more money at the system…

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  73. on October 30, 2008 at 2:34 am ironrailsironweights

    BTW, it seems that everybody is complaining about the Somali immigrants. My cousins in Canada have nothing but negative things to say about them

    I’ve heard that in Britain, even other African and Muslim groups consider the Somalis an embarrassment.

    Peter

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  74. Roosh
    chicnoir: it’s City of God, not City of Gods

    thanks deep voice.

    Question to all males: Is there really a big difference in sensitivity with/without a raincoat?

    Like


  75. Haven’t these people heard of CONDOMS ???

    Like


  76. BTW, it seems that everybody is complaining about the Somali immigrants. My cousins in Canada have nothing but negative things to say about them

    I’ve heard that in Britain, even other African and Muslim groups consider the Somalis an embarrassment.

    Peter

    However, the men usually like looking at Somali women since they are among the best looking on God’s green earth.

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  77. John C
    Haven’t these people heard of CONDOMS ???

    I2I John

    Fun Fact, women can go to Planned Parenthood and get birth control for free or at most, 30 bucks a month.

    If the man I’m sleeping with can’t afford 30 bucks per month their is no way he can afford pampers, daycare and milk.

    Like


  78. The urge to “help” IS the whole problem.

    Regarding those Somalis, I once read a book by the leader of one of the left-wing parties about her trip to the US to explore immigration there. She found some Somalis there, discovering staggering things like Somalis in real jobs (their employment rate here is 8 % and most of those are of course interpreters, imams and other government workers we wouldn’t “need” if we didn’t have the refugees), most of the men not having been to prison, lots of Somalis actually learning the local language (many refugees here intentionally do not learn Finnish, since they would lose the guaranteed welfare – we have refugees who do not speak a word of the language after more than a decade of living in Finland) and so on.

    The conclusion? While she admitted that the American way works better, it is selfish: it’s selfish to demand people to learn the language and it’s selfless to give and keep on giving. We know it doesn’t work but we’ll be *helping people* and therefore morally superior to the Americans.

    That’s how people with the urge to “help” think.

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  79. on October 30, 2008 at 3:08 am ironrailsironweights

    Question to all males: Is there really a big difference in sensitivity with/without a raincoat?

    Whatever differences exist are more mental than physical.

    However, the men usually like looking at Somali women since they are among the best looking on God’s green earth.

    Yes, that’s true, which in a way makes the country’s wretched state seem even worse.

    Peter

    Like


  80. 71 Chic:

    Question to all males: Is there really a big difference in sensitivity with/without a raincoat?

    Hell yes. Even the women I bang tell me that.

    You would know that if you ever managed to push away from the licking and get with the sticking.

    Like


  81. 76 Peter:

    Whatever differences exist are more mental than physical.

    It seems that whatever brain anomaly accounts for your fur fixation has some additional symptoms as well.

    Like


  82. DoJ:

    since we don’t get to escape to Libertopia (and I don’t think I’d want to, anyway)

    I hear you. No hot chicks there.

    Like


  83. Condoms are the only reason I can think of to consider an actual steady relationship.

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  84. Question to all males: Is there really a big difference in sensitivity with/without a raincoat?

    ummm, yes. A big huge difference. Lambskin (instead of latex) improves this somewhat, but still not up to bare.

    Plus there’s stopping everything in the middle to fumble around putting on a condom, the fact that she’ll be more reluctant to suck you clean after fucking if you taste like latex, etc.

    Like


  85. Haven’t these people heard of CONDOMS ???

    Some of the men demand condomless sex and the women will gladly acquiesce to such demands due to the “alpha/player” status of the male. Other times, the men and/or women are drunk or high, and in some cases believe all sorts of myths of falsehoods about avoiding pregnancy.

    Then there’s the women who actively go around spreading AIDS out of spite…

    The urge to “help” IS the whole problem.

    The problem is that for a segment of the population, their desire to help is sometimes driven out of status, and sometimes, it’s due to the fact that watching people suffer bothers them. In other words, when they see a poor group of Somalians, it hurts to see them suffer and struggle, so they want to prop them up so they can be successful. One can extend this to any group that’s an outlier of the mainstream and underperforms when compared with the mainstream.

    Seriously though, I must admit that Finland has a big problem on its hands with a pool unassimilating immigrants who simply collect welfare. In the long-term it’s just not sustainable and it’s not multiculturalism, but just an extension of pilarization where two societies (barely) co-exist but don’t mingle. It’s like Belgium, but even worse…

    Question to all males: Is there really a big difference in sensitivity with/without a raincoat?

    I’ve had sex with the same woman with and without a condom, and I didn’t notice any difference.

    Condoms are the only reason I can think of to consider an actual steady relationship.

    I can get hugs and cuddles from a platonic relationship, so condomless sex is pretty much the only reason to have a steady relationship.

    Like


  86. @65 David:
    On one hand I can *kinda* (but not really) see how your relatives could feel that way (the immigrants from Somilia more heavily supported), but Somalia and the Carribean have different economic and military realities. Ignoring that is a bit ignorant. And they shouldn’t feel cheated, they chose to move to Canada as immigrants and chose to re-start and re-build their own lives. Refugees and immigrants have different status.

    I can attest to the rise of single-momness. As long as a certain percentage of women can afford it though, it’s here to stay.

    Like


  87. some of you guys have very serious contradictions in your arguments. on the one hand, you’re throwing out valid criticisms of progressive policies and the modern welfare state, and correctly pointing out that much of what defines so-called progressivism is really watered down marxism. at the same time, however, you’re essentially making use of marxist frameworks by referring to whole classes of people: ‘single mothers’, ‘blacks’, ‘hispanics’, ‘immigrants’, etc.

    rolling back the welfare state and removing the moral hazard that comes with it is obvious, but some of you seem like you want to actively punish people for actions you see as destructive. this, again, smacks of marxism. marx felt that socialism was an inevitable historical fact, but that it needed to be helped along. see the contradiction in that? it’s the same contradiction inherent in throwing babies off of cliffs.

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  88. “…but some of you seem like you want to actively punish people for actions you see as destructive.”

    Of course. Destructive actions deserve punishment, not rewards.

    “…this, again, smacks of marxism.”

    I’m not sure how. Before Marxism or any other “ism ” was even invented, destructive behaviors were punished by the tribe, clan, village, etc… Even animals do this.

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  89. I’m not sure how. Before Marxism or any other “ism ” was even invented, destructive behaviors were punished by the tribe, clan, village, etc… Even animals do this.

    Yes, it’s called the free rider problem, and we have evolved to locate and punish free riders. The problem with Marxism is that it runs counter to human nature and tries to get us to create and lionize free riders.

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  90. Lance: Marx was wrong about plenty of things, but he’s still an influential thinker. Borrowing an idea or two from him does not automatically make an argument wrong.

    I do think some of the commenters here go a little overkill on the race arguments. Race is at best an imperfect proxy for a bunch of other traits, be it genetics, culture, etc. I don’t think a race war is going to happen. The most that will happen (and has already happened?) is a nativist/white backlash against immigration policies, affirmative action, etc. that the media does its best to ignore.

    That said, a dose of “race realism” is good for us all in our very PC culture, same as how Game provides us with “gender realism.” These classes of people *do* exist. They *do* correlate to a number of phenomena (though causation is less clear). To this day, some race stereotypes exist for a valid reason.

    marx felt that socialism was an inevitable historical fact, but that it needed to be helped along.

    I don’t see the destruction of the welfare state as anything even close to inevitable. In fact, I see it as an extremely unlikely outcome. Through history, the only times I see when a welfare state has been disbanded (as opposed to just mildly rolled back) were times when the state as a whole was destroyed.

    The welfare state seems to have a way of creeping forward slowly over time, plus an occasional big step forward (think the FDR and LBJ presidencies), plus an occasional small step backward. Eventually the society becomes so dysfunctional that the promises made by the government can no longer be kept, and the system collapses. Sometimes this leads to ever greater tyranny: see Argentina after its financial collapse in the early part of this decade. Sometimes this leads to greater freedom: see the former satellite nations of the USSR (though sadly not Russia itself).

    The welfare state has grown under Bush, but it looks like we are headed for another large expansion of it under Obama and a strongly Democratic Congress. I am not hopeful. The system is already quite dysfunctional, but I doubt that it will collapse within my lifetime. Through higher taxes, higher debt, and higher inflation, we can and most likely will keep it going for another 50-75 years.

    On a smaller scale, it will be interesting to see how California — ground zero of ruinous leftist policy — emerges from this current economic crisis. What California is facing now is a precursor to what the rest of the country will face over time. California has a bloated, horribly inefficient state government that (even though constitutionally mandated to run a balanced budget) runs up more debt every year. The state’s infrastructure is collapsing. Its budget situation is already bad enough, but it will get much worse: California’s sources of tax revenue are highly volatile. Over 50% of the state’s money comes from its income tax, and you can bet there won’t be a lot of capital gains reported this year or next. Falling property values hit property taxes, and the state is required to reimburse localities for these shortfalls. And sales taxes, well, who’s buying stuff? The Google wealth machine propped up the state and its housing market for the last few years, but that was a one-time thing. Now you have rising unemployment, falling property values, rising foreclosures, and bankrupt municipalities (I doubt Vallejo will be the last), in a state whose tax and cost structure is horribly uncompetitive with every other state in its region, and a state that hundreds of thousands of people *leave* every year seeking better jobs, lower taxes, and a lower cost of living.

    I’m very glad to be gone from that shithole of a state.

    As far as Obama goes: this drop in the tax increase income threshold to $150K is just the start. After this election and after we survey the devastation that is being done to our federal budget by this economic crisis, the debate will change very quickly. Just like with Clinton, say goodbye to the middle class tax cuts. Say hello to “how much do we need to raise taxes by, and on whom.” Only in la-la land are permanent tax cuts for *anyone* going to happen right now.

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  91. @ Drained
    you prove my point when you use the word ‘deserve’. deserve implies that you can adequately judge in advance which actions will be beneficial and which will be destructive. this is the same mistake that progressives make in thinking they clan plan the perfect society. just and efficient societies are ones in which people are free to make their own choices, but responsible for the consequences of their actions.

    a society that throws unwanted babies off of cliffs is one that thinks it can predict at birth which of its citizens will be productive and which will be a drain. it’s tempting to assume that certain people will never amount to anything, but in practice what you end up with is things like a rigid class structure and rampant nepotism. think of ivy league schools. at one point, people who went to them were basically the children of the wealthy. today, if you’re smart enough to get into harvard, you can go no matter what your family background. it’s hard to argue that the former is a better system than the latter.

    @T
    that’s a rather imprecise explanation of the free rider problem. that being said, the appropriate way to address these problems is by figuring out how to ‘charge’ people they’re full willingness to pay. that means we should be indifferent to how many babies a low-income, single mother has, so long as she is willing to shoulder the burden herself.

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  92. that means we should be indifferent to how many babies a low-income, single mother has, so long as she is willing to shoulder the burden herself.

    I agree with this. If people can support them without my tax dollars, knock themselves out and have as many kids as they can I say. If you keep pumping out kids because you feel entitled to my money to support yourself though, I consider you a free rider.

    Zorgon at 88 is right on track. California is so willing to sign its own death warrant with its ass-backwards policies that it astounds me. Great comment overall.

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  93. One time my brother in law and I were walking around chelsea/meat packing and a car with Geraldo Rivera stopped in front of us, with Geraldo in the passenger seat. The car stopped about 2 feet away from my brother in law and he got all excited and started yelling “Look, its Povich, Holy shit, its Povich” completely within earshot of Mr. Rivera and many other people on the street.

    Needless to say he didn’t get why I was laughing so hard for so long.

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  94. Lance, as a libertarian type, I have to agree with you about freedom of choice with consequences. But if something is historically bad, 98% of the time, and you take a non-interventionist position, then you have let ideology trump pragmatism. That’s understandable, but it’s a position most will not share.

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  95. @71; Question to all males: Is there really a big difference in sensitivity with/without a raincoat?

    In this age of mimbo “players”, skanks, and disease, the joys of condom-free sex are an overwhelming hedonistic argument for monogamy.

    Like


  96. Fabian — yeah that was my point.

    Re: IQ. I think it matters a lot less, than people think. Good cultural habits matter more, than native IQ. In fact, over time, good cultural habits tend to produce higher IQs. Look at Europe.

    Nothing before the Romans, and nothing after them until around 1000 AD. Those cathedrals were and are magnificent. More impressive even than the height of Roman engineering. Yet built by the descendants of people who were barbarian illiterate savages just 400 years prior. “Race” is so caught up in cultural habits that you can’t separate the two. But culture can and has changed: compare any Marvin Gaye soulful tune about true love from 1965 to Snoop Dog’s raps about women.

    I don’t think single motherhood works. Women like it, it’s easier, more convenient, certainly make them happy. But it’s a disaster, and one that once started is nearly impossible to revert without massive coercion by a strong, authoritarian state, which has it’s own costs.

    Singapore has had lots of state coercion to “erase” what Lee Kwan Yew thought were bad cultural habits of the Diaspora Chinese. Including sanitation (fines for spitting, chewing gum, and not flushing the toilet), and disrespect for public places. Singaporean guys I met found Hong Kong a hell-hole (it’s like a Disneyfied version of Manhattan, much cleaner) so that says something. But … creativity and individuality get crushed out in that sort of regime.

    The answer is not eugenics, more abortion, or stuff like that, but a concerted effort to remake culture and critically, provide lots of social institutions and links to keep people/families/societies together. One of the reason Somalis integrate better in the US is that the acculturation process into more robust social institutions (Churches, community organizations, etc.) is stronger in the US than Finland.

    Like


  97. “…deserve implies that you can adequately judge in advance which actions will be beneficial and which will be destructive.”

    We have had years and trillions of spent money and lives that make it rather easy to judge which actions will be beneficial and which will be destructive.

    Like


  98. whiskey: How do you “provide” social institutions? I don’t see any social institutions any more for people out of school. I don’t know anyone who goes to church, for example. I’ve barely even seen my neighbors.

    You know how Democrats make fun of the “Ownership Society” as the “You’re On Your Own Society”? Funny. Economically, we *don’t* have such a society: we have a welfare state where the government looks after people who don’t have enough money. Yet socially, we *do* have such a society. It would be very easy for me to die in my apartment and for no one to know for a few weeks.

    Like


  99. best maury clip:

    Like


  100. zorgon saidTo this day, some race stereotypes exist for a valid reason.

    Forgive me for being DAish but would you mind listing^^ a few? I could write lists for days but um

    Like


  101. i am all for actively dismantling the welfare state, but replacing it with the second-coming of sparta or some sort of ‘intelligently designed’ society would be equally disastrous. you guys make the same mistake that progressives make in thinking you can actively remake society into some utopian ideal.

    real progress often comes from places that nobody expected. you start tossing unwanted babies off of cliffs and who knows what we’re losing out on. the motor that makes our economic engine run is individual self-interest. people get up and go to work everyday so they can provide for themselves and their families. as a result the most productive people are often from working class backgrounds; people who know the value of a dollar. a society where pro-creation has to be purchased with a $100k bond is a recipe for a society full of coddled, spoiled, entitled, rich kids.

    Like


  102. on October 30, 2008 at 8:33 pm Dr. Grzlickson

    Not the Mama!

    Like


  103. Ned

    <a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SflqPlSQElw

    I think this ^^^couple put on a show for a free trip to NYC. Unless the couple is Jewish, Greek, Italian or some type of darker white*, there is no way a little boy who looks like that would come from the two of them.

    Like


  104. @Lance- Kinda like modern city living couples in China?

    Like


  105. Forgive me for being DAish but would you mind listing^^ a few?

    Asians are good at math and science?

    White trash?

    Alcoholism on Indian reservations?

    Like


  106. <a http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/us/16immig.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=somalis&st=cse&oref=slogin

    I read this a few days ago in the NYT. I find it interesting that two immigrant groups are fighting over something that belongs to neither of the two.

    BTW, I am not with DA or jaakkeli
    on the anti Somali treatment.

    @peter and tupac- I don’t know what to believe. I hear both views. I wonder if being circum plays a role in sensitivity.

    MQ saidthe fact that she’ll be more reluctant to suck you clean after ucking if you taste like latex

    SICK SICK SICK
    SMH

    Like


  107. Lance @ 99:

    Now when you phrase it like THAT I can agree. Excessive social engineering of ALL stripes is disastrous. The only duty we need to provide to a society is to stop excessively shielding people from the consequences of their actions. Provide safety nets to keep people from totally falling through the cracks if you have to, but don’t go so far as to excessively prop them up either and reward bad behavior.

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  108. thanks zorgon

    Alcoholism on Indian reservations?

    This seems more fact based than stereotype. I don’t think all Native Americans have alcohol problems of course. From my understanding, Native Americans didn’t have exposure to alcohol until the Europeans brought it along. Native Americans have trouble metabolizing alcohol ( I think) so they become intoxicated much faster and for a longer period than other people . I read some studies on this a few years ago so you can look them up if you want direct proof. .

    Like


  109. @T
    right on. you’re preaching to the choir.

    @chic
    how do you mean? i’m not so knowledgeable about china.

    Like


  110. 106 chic noir

    This seems more fact based than stereotype.

    Er, what did you think you were asking for?

    If you redefine “stereotype” to mean “not fact-based,” of course they won’t “exist for a valid reason.” But that’s not what “stereotype” actually means.

    A stereotype is just a generalization about a group which does not apply to all of its members. Sometimes they nevertheless have a lot of statistical validity (e.g. alcoholic Native Americans). Sometimes they don’t.

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  111. Lance: I don’t especially like my $100K bond proposal either. I’m just throwing it out as a trial balloon since I know that the welfare state isn’t going to be dismantled or even scaled back in the forseeable future (it’s likely to get significantly bigger in the next 4 years).

    If the first-best option isn’t popular enough to be implemented, then we have to think about what *is* popular enough to be implemented and that would still constitute a step in the right direction.

    For example, requiring a paternity test before a birth certificate can be produced listing a particular father — I’d think that this would be something you could get just about all men to support, and a good number of women, just based on the average person’s idea of justice.

    Look at the success of something like the Michigan Civil Rights Initiative. In a year that was terrible for Republicans, despite overwhelming “elite” opposition from the media and both parties, it passed with a very solid percentage of the vote — because the average guy is sick and tired of the government granting special privileges to certain people based purely on their race.

    The overall political climate is very, very bad for conservatives/libertarians right now. That doesn’t mean giving up, it just means fighting the worst of the bad stuff and finding some new, popular, positive stuff to push for.

    What worries me is that a lot of conservatives are basically ready to give up on the welfare state thing. See the whole “Sam’s Club conservatives” trend, which is another outgrowth of “big government conservatives.” When you look in detail at what they support, it’s just Liberalism Lite. Big increases in the child tax credit for folks who don’t pay taxes in the first place, for example. It’s just welfare by another name.

    Given the current economic situation, I would think the time is ripe for conservatives to really come out swinging on a message of frugality. I’d think a lot of people would respond to a message that “we got ourselves into this mess by running up too much debt.”

    Then again, I’d think McCain would have been able to appeal to people along those lines, and he just doesn’t seem to have been able to do it. Maybe a lot of people really *have* grown to think of the government as a magical provider of free goodies paid for by Other People.

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  112. Requiring a paternity test to list a father on a birth certificate is a good idea; but rather, I’ve thought so ever since reading the 10% illegitimacy statistic years ago. Protect men from exploitation and discourage bad behavior because you can’t get away with it. What’s to loose? Big time whores might use up a lot of resources trying to pin the unlucky SOB, but the gains for society are worth it.

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  113. I live in an upper middle class suburb in the Pacific Northwest. The number of women in my neighborhood who have married these (I can’t even use the word) men to take care of them and their baby is simply astounding.

    It’s the same story. My wife tells me “well, she had a kid with this guy but he split but then she met John/Mike/David/BigFuckingLoser and he’s really, really nice and then they got married and he treats him/her like his own son/daughter and it’s really cute and they’re really happy, etc”

    It literally makes me want to puke.

    And, of course, right on cue the second these losers are not longer, strictly speaking, NEEDED they get dumped. And then they whine.

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  114. Zorgon —

    I think explicit anti-Urbanism, in terms of dispersing the population, into small towns and the like, with various grass-roots organizations providing the sort of life that was present in Segregated New Orleans (a gazillion benevolent societies, for every need under the Sun) to current small town say Idaho or Utah, could rebuild the sort of human connections people need.

    You would not see Jourdan’s loser guys so desperate for a family they provide sucker-money for a woman looking for temporary security for her kid with some Alpha male biker dude or what have you.

    If you penalize cities and reward small towns, you’ll get more of the latter. It’s also good policy to have more small towns and fewer big cities, since it reduces the overweening power of elites in a few urban areas. The power exerted by NYC, LA, Chicago, and Seattle’s elites is noxious and bad for most people’s lives. Certain cultural traits are proven over time to work, regardless of what elites claim.

    As you note, people are isolated and LONELY. A big part of Obama’s promise is a promise to end loneliness. Which no man or movement can do. By definition. But we can emphasize community groups and connections.

    One aspect: welfare delivered by actual people in the community who are responsible for taking care of their charges and moving them into productive work wherever possible, with pay based partly on performance. This would require more than just cutting checks, or granting funds. But it could be done.

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  115. @111 Jourdan-

    Ah yes, Seattle: Home of the Single Mother. Land of the Dateless Guy Who’s Too Busy “Respecting” Women to Ask Them Out. Home of the Socially Introverted. For those posters who don’t know, take it from me: you have NO IDEA how bad it can be until you’ve lived in a city like Seattle for awhile. It’s a place where feminism won. And the results are not pretty….

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  116. Seattle’s still got to be better than San Jose, home of endless seas of computer dorks?

    The word back in the day was that the single male/single female ratio in the South Bay was worse than Alaska.

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  117. SICK SICK SICK

    also, you’ll be more reluctant to go down on her after fucking if she tastes like latex. Does that help, chic?

    Like


  118. So if you`re a biker in Seattle you are set for life?

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  119. MQ- “that” is apart of the opening ceremony my dear :).

    Like


  120. Doj :A stereotype is just a generalization about a group which does not apply to all of its members. Sometimes they nevertheless have a lot of statistical validity (e.g. alcoholic Native Americans). Sometimes they don’t.

    Um
    that’s why I wrote the comment about NA and alcohol.

    Lance said@chic
    how do you mean? i’m not so knowledgeable about china.

    i don’t know a lot either. From what I’ve read the one child policy has led to a number of very spoiled only children. Some parents are not willing to deny their children anything.

    BTW, the one child policy is not applied to all of China’s people universally. I read that upper class city dwellers are allowed to have two and some tribes/ethnic groups who are non Han* are allowed to have more than one child. The Mosuo Chinesse are sometimes listed or disscussed as a group who are allowed to have more than one child. The Mosuo are an intresting group
    <a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB5sz576cnM

    The obesity epidemic in China is linked to couples who don’t place limits on their spoiled only children*. Kentucky Fried chicken is very popular in China.

    zorgon saidI would think the time is ripe for conservatives to really come out swinging on a message of frugality. I’d think a lot of people would respond to a message that “we got ourselves into this mess by running up too much debt.”

    NYT has started too push frugality & how it’s trendy or hip to be conservative with spending.

    Like


  121. Ah yes, Seattle

    Allegedly, Seattle is great for black guys looking for white women. One blogger essentially e-mailed me and told me that moving there would be a boon as every black guy dates a white girl there…

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  122. Um
    that’s why I wrote the comment about NA and alcohol.

    But you do understand that the truthfulness of something has zero bearing on if it is a stereotype, don’t you? Because your statement certainly implies otherwise, and such a definition exists nowhere. I’m guessing that you misspoke, but if not, I’d love to hear where the definition in question comes from other than the aether.

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  123. The number of women in my neighborhood who have married these (I can’t even use the word) men to take care of them and their baby is simply astounding.

    Oddly, I wouldn’t mind such a situation if I wasn’t married to her. I get to play hero and feel useful, and she gets a beta to prop her up. Hell, there may be a 10% chance for sex, and I can write off her kid as a dependent.

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  124. Yeah, and a 100% chance to get herpes, although from what I hear about you, that’s probably a step up.

    Another question: are you really a black guy? Because I’ve never heard of a black guy as insecure and neurotic as you. Seriously, what’s it like to figuratively take it up the ass from everyone?

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  125. Stereotypes:

    1. Dark men date lighter women, and rarely a darker woman then themselves.

    2. Native Americans on reservations drink heavily.

    3. Africans don’t run things too well. (Think Africa. Think South Africa. Think school systems and hospitals in America.)

    4. Racial differences in physical attributes.

    5. Africans are more violent than other racial groups. 10x, at least, according to FBI statistics.

    6. Gay men are more concerned with style and appearance than straight men.

    7. Black men can run faster than white men and Asian men (jump higher, too.)

    8. Straight men really like women, and are happy to give them presents in return for company and “favors.” Many women are pleased to cooperate.

    9. Males and females have very different psychologies. This is important in the work world. It is quite possible to have a very large and functional all male organizations, but are there any large organizations composed only of women which actually do something? I don’t mean political stuff like NOW.

    I confess I haven’t heard a single racial stereotype that wasn’t true. Stereotypes talk about the average, not the particular, so there are lots of individual variation. I head a lot of racial stereotypes when I was in Tennessee in the 1970’s. I didn’t believe them then. I do now.

    Stereotypes are our friends, not our enemies. Think of them as a first approximation, not the final truth about any particular situation.

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  126. Stereotypes are our friends, not our enemies.

    Except they make certain groups of people look bad when compared to everybody else…

    Like


  127. on October 31, 2008 at 3:14 am ironrailsironweights

    @123 –

    Another stereotype: far too many women go for the hideous pedophilic Bald Eagle look, rather than having thick, rich, luxuriant Glorious Natural Pelts.

    Peter

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  128. Oh, and on the topic of California, I forgot to mention “crippling drought”: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081031/ap_on_re_us/california_water

    Just wait until Lake Mead dries up…

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  129. Do you think President Obama will dismantle welfare? A significant percentage of our population, including children, would starve w/o it and we won’t allow that. To quote “The Bell Curve”: Going on welfare is an unintelligent thing to do which is why women of low cognitive ability end up there, but such women have little to take to the labor market and welfare is one of few resources available to them when they have a baby to care for and no husband to help out.”

    And it is not just IQ: drug use, immaturity, psychological issues. Planning as well. It takes a future-oriented perspective to avoid having a baby by abstaining, effectively using birth control, or getting an abortion. To have a baby all you have to do is have sex and wait. Yes the racial data is statistically sound and I don’t want to dismiss it out of hand, but there are single mothers of all races and they are all individuals

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  130. If the question is about responsibility for out of wedlock kids, all the talk of Sweden, welfare, and underclass is a joke. In an economic recession the ultimate sucker is the father. Pay up, go to jail, or join the Army.

    The laws that allow sexual profligacy but hold men to more responsibility are outdated. If women are that independent they should be able to take care of their children.

    If all the welfare is cut the child support and alimony laws are still intact.

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  131. @ Hello, it is interesting you quote “The Bell Curve” because according to that we should devote the most resources to Asians since they are overwhelmingly overrepresented in Colleges and Jobs that require high intelligence.

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  132. Except they [stereotypes] make certain groups of people look bad when compared to everybody else…

    … thus placing the onus of improving said group’s behavior where it belongs: on the members of that group. Not on other people who notice these things and respond appropriately.

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  133. I confess I haven’t heard a single racial stereotype that wasn’t true.

    There is only one I can think of: the “Stupid Pollack” stereotype that was quite entrenched in the U.S. from the 1960s on through the ’80s.

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  134. I confess I haven’t heard a single racial stereotype that wasn’t true.

    The fat frumpy Russian babushka stereotype we had here in the 80s doesn’t seem to have been true.

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  135. I was initially surprised to hear that Americans have a “stupid Pole” stereotype. There’s no such thing in eastern Europe.

    Relatively speaking, it may still be true. My theory is that Americans learned about Poles from the Jews.

    And Russians used to be pretty frumpy, although not fat. Soviet street fashion could hardly afford the present levels of glorious hosiery.

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  136. None was as shocked about the Polish stereotype as I was when I came to the U.S. from Poland duirng the mid-80s as a teenager. It was my very own “A Boy Named Sue” experience.

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  137. @ whiskey
    “explicit anti-urbanism”??? someone already tried that. his name was pol plot.

    as for stereotypes, they’re for the lazy. open your eyes, and assess people as individuals and you may actually learn something.

    and all those bell curve arguments are bullshit. i’ll say it again: start trying to actively engineer society and the results will be disastrous. it’s exactly what the welfare state tries to do, and the reasons they both won’t work are essentially the same.

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  138. and all those bell curve arguments are bullshit. i’ll say it again: start trying to actively engineer society and the results will be disastrous

    I believe it is the Bell Curve-deniers who are associated with social-engineering ideologies.

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  139. on October 31, 2008 at 2:08 pm Seeking_Alpha

    it’s exactly what the welfare state tries to do, and the reasons they both won’t work are essentially the same.

    It’s the opposite on this point too. The bell curve, which makes sense, also means that some level of poverty is inevitable. The welfare state sees any inequality of result as an inequality of opportunity and attempts to engineer a fake equality.

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  140. @ PA & SA
    if you try to group everyone into society into different groups (e.g. high IQ, low IQ) and then make policy based on where people fall in those groups, you are engaging in social engineering.

    the problem with the welfare state is that it wants to provide everyone with cradle to grave protections and therefore kills people’s incentives to strive on their own behalf. the same thing happens when you start classifying people at an early age. someone put in the low IQ category will have no expectations placed on them and therefore always tend to under perform; likewise to those labeled as high IQ, they’re already been given a special place in society so why would they feel the need to work harder than necessary.

    you want a society that rewards productive behavior, not just being born with a high IQ.

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  141. on October 31, 2008 at 2:21 pm Seeking_Alpha

    I didn’t read all the stuff that came before so maybe I missed something but who was saying anything about making policy based on where people fall on the curve? I thought the discussion was just whether or not the curve exists.

    I definitely agree you shouldn’t make policy based on it. Hard work is usually able to trump smarts. I’d take a hard worker over a brilliant, lazy worker.

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  142. I believe it is the Bell Curve-deniers who are associated with social-engineering ideologies.

    No, the Bell Curvers are full of it too for the exact reasons Lance says. You see it on this blog too, people who think high IQ should be the top criteria for everything, an aristocracy based primarily on IQ. It’s actually not that different than communism, where a core group of intellectuals expects to be able to centrally plan a whole nation’s economy and productivity. Some of the biggest fuck-ups in society have been high IQ people. Some of the greatest successes have been people of average IQ that were gifted in other types of intelligence like social intelligence, emotional intelligence or common sense. You may get someone of average IQ like Ronald Reagan who turns out to be one of the greatest Presidents of the 20th century, or a serial killer who has a high IQ but is horribly maladjusted socially. Proclaiming people to be of high or low worth from early on based on supposed superior genetics is as bad as artificially propping up those of inferior genetics through entitlements. These are the lessons of books like 1984 and Brave New World. We need to let everyone compete and have the chips fall where they may.

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  143. @SA
    even absent explicit policy provisions based on IQ, there’s still a problem with the bell curve argument. the idea that you should just let a certain portion of the population languish in poverty, because they were born to under performing parents is completely antithetical to the ideas of a liberal, and i use that word in the true sense, democracy.

    society’s need the ability for social mobility. the creation of a permanent hereditary under class, or a permanent hereditary upper class, erodes mobility and leads to a generally less productive society.

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  144. I was initially surprised to hear that Americans have a “stupid Pole” stereotype. There’s no such thing in eastern Europe.

    Polish jokes were just about the last form of ethnic jokes that were socially acceptable in the United States. They could be told even in workplaces as recently as 15 to 20 years ago, long after all other forms of ethnic humor had become completely taboo.

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  145. 134 PA:

    None was as shocked about the Polish stereotype as I was when I came to the U.S. from Poland duirng the mid-80s as a teenager.

    Damn. That must have sucked.

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  146. 141 Lance:

    @SA
    even absent explicit policy provisions based on IQ, there’s still a problem with the bell curve argument. the idea that you should just let a certain portion of the population languish in poverty, because they were born to under performing parents is completely antithetical to the ideas of a liberal, and i use that word in the true sense, democracy.

    I’m confused. You seem to be saying it is inhumane to let the chips fall where they may, but if on the other hand ,government attempts to adhere to humanistic/liberal ideals of compassion by interfering with the state of nature, you criticize that as “social engineering”?

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  147. Sucked big-time. There I thought that having just come from a small, defiant country that had just stood up to the Soviets (this was just three years after Solidarity, Lech Walesa, Martial Law, and PL having eliminated USSR in the 1982 Wold Cup in the most dramatic 0-0 game ever played) would have been seen as awesome.

    Notably, is that it was mostly upper-middle class preppies that I’ve had a hard time with. The redneck/metalhead crowd was for the most part pretty cool.

    At first I took the crap because I was convinced that my family would get deported if I got into fights or whatever. But eventually, I got into two fights, and won both.

    The first one in a rout, with a smaller kid who mistook my unwillingness to fight for fear. The second one was with a big and very aggressive kid. That one was much closer. I had a bloody nose, and he had a bloody lip. But he cried afterward and I didn’t, so I was considered the winner.

    Of ill comes good, just like in that Johnny Cash song.

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  148. I meant to add that after those fights, I got all-around respect from everyone at school and there were no more problems.

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  149. @TC
    what i don’t want: a welfare state.

    what i do want: a social safety net that works, and public education.

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  150. on October 31, 2008 at 4:05 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @Lance – That’s ironic because public education hurts those at the bottom of the bell curve and the bottom of the socio-economic spectrum the worst. People born to wealthy parents who are more likely to already have a headstart with innate intelligence can either opt-out or move to excellent districts. The place that needs private education (with government vouchers for those who can’t afford it) the most is the low-income, low-intelligence group. My (private) school’s program for those with minor learning disabilities and slower intelligence which was tailored to their specific needs served them far better than a 4000 person school could have, and it costs about the same.

    @T – I didn’t see anyone calling for an enforced rule of the intellectuals. But the fact of the matter is that in a meritocracy, if you ‘let the chips fall where they may’, then the people with money and power are going to be mostly high intelligence people. Of course hard work counts for a lot, and personality as well in areas where intelligence matters less (politics, sales, etc.), but if person A works his hardest and person B works his hardest, the smarter of the two will do better. A really smart slacker still won’t reach the top, but neither will a moderately hard working average intelligence.

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  151. on October 31, 2008 at 4:06 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @T – And on this blog, high IQ actually loses you points on the Dating Market Value Test for Men, which I can personally attest is an accurate evaluation.

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  152. @SA
    as i tell me liberal friends, public education does not equal public schools. the fact that the government has a monopoly on the education of poor children is one of the biggest detriments to instituting true meritocracy in this country.

    i’m all for vouchers, charter schools, teacher accountability, school choice, etc. the point is that i support the use of public money to educate children whose parents can’t afford it even though i couldn’t care less if a certain percentage of those parents went hungry and homeless.

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  153. on October 31, 2008 at 4:31 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @Lance – Oh okay, much better. So the only thing public about your public schools would be vouchers only for those families too poor to afford school? No mandates of any kind. I can agree with that.

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  154. 148 Seeking Alpha:

    I didn’t see anyone calling for an enforced rule of the intellectuals. But the fact of the matter is that in a meritocracy, if you ‘let the chips fall where they may’, then the people with money and power are going to be mostly high intelligence people.

    This is the point that turns the whole Randian Libertopia on its head. Rand paints the elite of the world with a meritocratic brush. After all, in an “aristocracy of spirit”, only rational and moral people are capable of success. The result of such a weltanschauung is that people are seen as morally deserving of their station in life: if you’re successful, it’s because of something you did, if you’re not successful it’s because of something you didn’t do.

    The emerging truths of IQ and other biologically based tempermental dispositions throw a monkey wrench into this business. PatrickH makes a good point elsewhere that the ruling classes of the world have a vested interest in pretending that IQ is not genetic in origin: they get to pat themselves on the back for something they had no hand in. Conversely, such a delusion keeps the lower classes tame and docile as they are protected from the knowledge that they are simply fucked in certain areas of life. It gives them hope. That way they can keep spinning their wheels while they are flipping burgers.

    Everyone is happy.

    What would Rand say if it turned out that all her business heroes simply had been born with greater genetic potential, higher IQ’s, etc? It probably wouldn’t bother her much if they conducted themselves in the Right Manner. But history shows that the elite will do what they elite have always done: pretty much anything they can get away with.

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  155. I work in medicine and have had many occasions to inform teens from the projects that they are pregnant. They are often giddy, giggly to know. It makes them important. They matter.

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  156. on October 31, 2008 at 4:44 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @TC – You may be right if IQ was the sole determinant in success, but it clearly isn’t. I know plenty of smart people who are too lazy to really make anything of themselves, and even I know I could be much more successful if I spent less time arguing on Roissy and more time looking for new ways to make money at work.

    I’m a big Rand fan, so I’ll use specific names to make my point. Ellsworth Toohey is super high IQ, yet he is the arch-villain in Fountainhead. In reading Atlas Shrugged, what strikes me about the characters isn’t their intelligence but their work ethic. They should all pat themselves on the back. Anyone who thinks all it takes is brains and pedigree to found a company, grow a company, run a company well doesn’t know what they’re talking about.

    The truth is that hard work and intelligence are both fundamental factors in real success. Social skills come in for some areas and not for others, but in a meritocracy, you need both.

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  157. on October 31, 2008 at 4:49 pm Tired of Smoke Rings

    “I was initially surprised to hear that Americans have a “stupid Pole” stereotype. There’s no such thing in eastern Europe.”

    @PA

    I used to work and share living space with a refugee Pole in the mid-Eighties. He was bright, hell he was brilliant. For example, he had learned nearly idiomatic American English in less than two years, while working full time at a number of shitty jobs. His entire English vocabulary when the Jaralzelsky (sp?) regime showed him the door was one word, “Super” if I recall rightly, so it’s not like he had been studying in Poland.

    We worked with a number of other FOTB refugees and on occasion they would do something stupid. Nothing out of the ordinary mind you, just a normal mistake that a sleep deprived or inattentive person might make. Never once saw any of these guys own up and accept responsibility. Usually there was a variation of ” I meant to do that”.

    Proud fellows, too proud perhaps, thought I. Mind I never bought into “the dumb Polack” thing but I did wonder if perhaps some had gotten this idea from similar experiences.

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  158. on October 31, 2008 at 4:54 pm Seeking_Alpha

    By the way, not that anyone cares, but my old handle on these comments was ‘Michael’. The name is a double-entendre on what we’re all doing here, and on an industry rag of the same name.

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  159. @PA: Totally understand. I got a lot of crap at school, and ‘turned the other cheek’. Then one day I beat the snot out of one of my agitators. It all stopped after that.

    @Tupac: The rebuttal is simply that it has more to do with hard work than it does intelligence. It’s all about who you know, isn’t it? Our cultural elite are so frequently defined in terms of our celebrities, but we make fun of them as being ‘dumb’ all the time. Also the idea that intelligence is best defined in terms of IQ is frankly, outdated. Mental capacity has far too many facets. We’ve all known ‘smart’ people who are stupid.

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  160. @T – And on this blog, high IQ actually loses you points on the Dating Market Value Test for Men, which I can personally attest is an accurate evaluation.

    I don’t mean from Roissy himself, I mean from many of the commenters. Many commenters here worship at the altar of IQ.

    @T – I didn’t see anyone calling for an enforced rule of the intellectuals. But the fact of the matter is that in a meritocracy, if you ‘let the chips fall where they may’, then the people with money and power are going to be mostly high intelligence people. Of course hard work counts for a lot, and personality as well in areas where intelligence matters less (politics, sales, etc.), but if person A works his hardest and person B works his hardest, the smarter of the two will do better. A really smart slacker still won’t reach the top, but neither will a moderately hard working average intelligence.

    An oversimplification. There is more to the recipe of success than those two traits of IQ and hard work. What if the moderately hard working average intelligence guy has incredible social intelligence and charisma and is super-ambitious? He networks, knows how to impress the right people with ass-kissing and chutzpah, plays office politics well, has good family connections, is not afraid to ask for what he wants, etc? I bet you that moderately hard working average intelligence guy may make it all the way to the top.

    You are boiling things down to just hard-work and IQ. Success is not that binary. What about charisma? Social intelligence? Emotional intelligence? For example Napoleon had a high IQ, but plenty of underperformers have high IQs. What made Napoleon so successful and dangerous was his high IQ combined with his social intelligence, hard work and rabid ambition. He was uncanny at ingratiating himself to and winning patronage from powerful and important people. Making good alliances. Reading the winds of change and making sure he was on the right side of certain conflicts. This social intelligence is what also made Ronald Reagan such an effective leader despite the common view that he only had slightly above average or just average IQ. He had social intelligence, what many would call a folksy smarts. His communication skills and comedic timing were brilliant.

    If you ever look at the makeup of Mensa memberships, for example, according to the logic espoused by many commenters here it should be loaded with a majority of society’s movers and shakers. But look at the member breakdown of mensa and their success and salary levels:
    http://stason.org/TULARC/self-growth/mensa/10-What-kind-of-people-are-Members-of-Mensa.html it’s not as impressive at should be if IQ was as important to success as people claim. It’s just one of many metrics that can be used to assess potential. It’s important sure, just not the be-all, end-all, or even THE most important metric.

    In fact, one of the main reasons I’d say so many intellectuals hate capitalism is that unlike school and the rest of their childhood, the free market is the one place where being intellectual and smart does not guarantee success and accolades. Look at most of the most successful and dynamic people in the world and what they tend to have in common are a mix in different proportions of IQ, decisiveness, charisma, social intelligence, willingness to risk, willingess to work hard, good family connections, etc.

    This tendency today to overvalue Ivy leaguers and high-IQ people is leading to a one-dimensional type of artistocracy in our country with tunnel vision and huge gaps in its decisionmaking skills. All with the same backgrounds, schools and lack of real-world experiences. Look at the mess high IQ people and Ivy leaguers in charge of our government, the Fed and the top I-banks combined to create in our economy. Infatuated with their own IQs and the decisionmaking superiority they perceived it gave them, they engineered and micromanaged the economy through interest rate manipulations, “socially just” lending policy legislations and complex financial instruments. Most of the societal failures throughout history have been the result of high IQ people trying to do social engineering through central planning and legislating rather then just let the average joe just do his own thing on his own behalf and let the chips fall where they may as Adam Smith suggested.

    An aristocracy based primarily on IQ to me is a nightmare. And I say this as a high IQ person. I think this article says it all:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/oct/18/banking-useconomy

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  161. on October 31, 2008 at 5:09 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @Animus – Also the idea that intelligence is best defined in terms of IQ is frankly, outdated. Mental capacity has far too many facets. We’ve all known ’smart’ people who are stupid.

    I think that idea stems from a lack of understanding about intelligence. Intelligence is pretty simple. In computer terms, it’s a combination of processing power and RAM. It’s how fast your mind can detect and analyze patterns, and how many abstract symbols it can hold at once (rarely more than 7). These are scientifically grounded.

    There are other facets, such as “emotional intelligence”, which is a form of pattern recognition but applied to social behavior, or “creativity” which is yet another form of pattern recognition, applied to aesthetics, but they’re all derivative of the basic definition of intelligence. There is no such thing as a stupid person (low processing power, low RAM) who is very successful creatively or very successful socially.

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  162. There is no such thing as a stupid person (low processing power, low RAM) who is very successful creatively or very successful socially.

    I don’t know about that. I know some people who are dumb as dirt overall but just have singleminded passions and are actually pretty creative at them. My one friend is an artist and is obsessed with drawing, has been forever, and makes a good living as an artist, but he’s not that bright, even in intellectually discussing art. I can’t imagine him doing well on an IQ test. Some actors are great at what they do, but they seem pretty dumb too. Maybe I’m wrong and they would do great at IQ tests, but I think it’s more a mix of passion, hard work, empathy (great for acting) and social intelligence (also great for acting). But strictly on IQ scores, I don’t think they’d do all that hot. And as far as being stupid and socialy successful, I STRONGLY disagree there. I know plenty of people who are dumb in terms of IQ but social wizards (think real-life versions of Joey from Friends). Mind you they were models so their looks helped, but as Roissy will tell you good looks with no social intelligence (game) still equals social loser.

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  163. @Tired of Smoke Rings,

    Well, we all have to feel superior in some way. What easier way than to look down on “the other?” It’s a lot easier than actually working to accomplish something. Call the Polish guy dumb, because he doesn’t speak in perfect, unaccented English. It’s easy. The people who do NEVER speak another language. That would be hard.

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  164. And on this blog, high IQ actually loses you points on the Dating Market Value Test for Men, which I can personally attest is an accurate evaluation.

    That’s only an issue at very high I.Q. levels, where people (males, at least) often fall off the “nerd cliff” and have severely underdeveloped social skills and are deeply introverted.

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  165. on October 31, 2008 at 5:45 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @T – Well I think there are a couple things at work there. A test that did a better job of measuring processing power would find some of those people with higher IQs than a traditional IQ test. Intelligence is pattern recognition, but IQ tests focus on very specific types of patterns.

    For the people that you’re talking about that have great game but aren’t like math wizards or whatever, it’s just that they focus their intelligence on social analytics. For naturals, a lot of it is done subconsciously, but it’s still done. It takes pattern recognition to pick up on the subtlest of social cues that naturals are so good at noticing and interpreting. I bet if those people decided that they were sick of their lives and really wanted to become studious, they could.

    Likewise, I’m a very smart person, but I was always terrible at social signaling, understanding social patterns and analyzing and interpreting social behavior. It’s not because of a lack of “social” intelligence. I just focused my intelligence on other areas. Now that I (and I would guess many other people as well) have redirected our mental focus to social behavior, it’s not a particularly challenging area of study… it’s just different.

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  166. on October 31, 2008 at 5:46 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @ Peter –

    15. What is your IQ?

    Under 85: -1 point
    85 to 110: 0 points
    110 to 130: +1 point
    130 to 145: 0 points
    over 145: -1 point

    I don’t know… 145 isn’t all that high, and even at 130, you’re only breaking even.

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  167. I don’t know… 145 isn’t all that high, and even at 130, you’re only breaking even.

    Assuming a mean I.Q. of 100 and a standard deviation of 15, only a little over 2% of the population would have scores over 130, and only one-tenth of one percent would be over 145.

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  168. on October 31, 2008 at 5:57 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @ Peter – That’s true. I just meant that 145 is hardly the borderline-autistic scientist or mathematician. I think that’s probably another standard deviation out.

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  169. Call the Polish guy dumb, because he doesn’t speak in perfect, unaccented English. It’s easy. The people who do NEVER speak another language. That would be hard.

    The “dumb Pole” stereotype that was commonplace until recent years was not, for the most part, based on immigrant unfamiliarity with English. Immigration from Poland had been relatively rare during the Communist years. Most of the Polish-origin people who found themselves portrayed as slow-witted and unsophisticated during the sterotype’s heyday in the 1950’s through 1980’s were from families that had been in America for decades. As one might imagine, this makes the stereotype’s popularity and persistence all the more difficult to explain.

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  170. on October 31, 2008 at 6:09 pm Tired of Smoke Rings

    “Well, we all have to feel superior in some way. What easier way than to look down on “the other?” ”

    @MarkD

    I’m not sure if you got the point of my anecdote. To put it more plainly, I found most of the Poles I worked with to be prideful and that it caused them to appear more dense than they were. Not too proud to work, I mean I had MDs pulling guts out of fish alongside me and such like. No one likes to admit a mistake but the Poles would rather lie about it than fess up and be done with it. On average I judged them to be great guys in spite of this quirk.

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  171. thus placing the onus of improving said group’s behavior where it belongs: on the members of that group.

    The problem is that it may be impossible to change the behaviour of that group.

    The fat frumpy Russian babushka stereotype we had here in the 80s doesn’t seem to have been true.

    Yes, but the stereotype of the ugly Russian male with poor manners is sadly still true. As for the babushkas, you’ll see many of them in Brighton Beach and Sheepshead Bay…

    open your eyes, and assess people as individuals and you may actually learn something.

    I don’t trust people to do that, hence my hate for stereotypes.

    The bell curve, which makes sense, also means that some level of poverty is inevitable.

    The problem with that is if there’s inevitable poverty, there is no true equality. Equality of opportunity while admirable and essential goal of model society is not the same as true equality which is the equality of results. The problem is that such true equality is impossible to achieve without excluding significant numbers of people, or massive wealth transfers that dwarf what even the most generous social welfare states in providing for the poor. Both solutions are politically untenable, so we’re stuck with having to live with the fact that poor people (and by default black people) will never be equal.

    These are the lessons of books like 1984 and Brave New World.

    Interestingly, I thought the utopia of Brave New World was a model society since everything was well ordered, consumerism provided for everything, sex was available on demand, and soma made everybody happy.

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  172. I think by the time you get to 3 standard deviations of IQ above the mean, you’re talking about pretty whacked out geeky types such as myself. I never (to my knowledge) took an IQ test, but I would guess I fall into that category and I knew plenty of other folks in the same category. Not your most well-adjusted people.

    Some of them may have been -1s or -2s from their intelligence and its fallout; others, like myself, probably got at least a -5, perhaps a -10, from it. (It’s just not possible to overstate how screwed up I was. While other kids were playing on the playground, I was writing computer programs that played chess.)

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  173. T. AKA Ricky Raw,
    IQ isn’t everything. Social skills and confidence are also very important. But social skills, confidence and high IQ will get you much farther than the first two alone. IQ is not as good a predictor of an individual’s success as it is the averages of a group’s success. An individual with an IQ of 160 maybe a slacker pothead, while someone with an IQ of 100 will be reliable and hardworking. But if you take 100 people with a 160 IQ and 100 people with a 100 IQ you’ll find that the first group earns more than the second group. And as far as talking about people you’ve known, no one’s experience is omniscient and that is why we perform empirical studies.

    Benito Hoover,
    You must not have read “The Bell Curve” because it says no such thing. There was one chapter stating that the intelligence gap between whites, blacks and Asians seemed to be genetic but made no racial policy prescriptions. It says that we should devote a lot of financial resources to bright students, regardless of race.

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  174. @Seeking_Alpha:

    I find your computer analogy to be poor, although maybe because I happen to know a lot about computers. But to continue your analogy, you can buy a Mac and a Dell with the same CPU and RAM, but because of the differences in software, their capabilities are very different. Software is what is important and in this case, software is a mix of innate programming (what you’re born to ‘recognize’) and 3rd party stuff (what you learn). Even assuming that it is all ‘just patterns’, the mathematical expression of different kinds of patterns are not necessarily similar. Afterall, how do you explain ‘idiot savants’?

    T is right, there are plenty of socially successful idiots out there. Perhaps you’ve never heard of football.

    I also think that reducing ‘smarts’ to pattern recognition is misleading. If it was really that simple, AI wouldn’t be the incredibly difficult problem it is. The best performer at the Turing Test is still woefully inadequate.

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  175. DA:

    The problem with that is if there’s inevitable poverty, there is no true equality. Equality of opportunity while admirable and essential goal of model society is not the same as true equality which is the equality of results. The problem is that such true equality is impossible to achieve without […]

    No, equality of results is simply impossible to achieve. Period.

    Equality of results is also *undesirable*.

    Outcomes cannot be judged as just or unjust. All that can be judged as just or unjust are processes. We must accept whatever outcome results from a just process.

    For example, if you and I agree to flip a coin and bet $5 on the coin flip, that would be a just process, so long as no one sneaks in a biased coin. The outcome is unequal, but it would be a perversion of justice to say that simply because the outcome is unequal that the loser has right to redress. No — the process was just, so we must accept the outcome, whatever it was.

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  176. on October 31, 2008 at 6:30 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @ Zorgon – My point was only that the lack of social skills is merely a lack of will and effort rather than a lack of ability.

    I got a 5 on AP Computer Science, so believe me, I hear you about missing out on the childhood stuff. I only wanted to relate that through a concerted effort to conquer it – by embracing your intellect as your most powerful analytical weapon rather than rejecting it and trying to ‘dumb your game down’ – you can be socially successful.

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  177. what i do want: a social safety net that works, and public education.

    The so-called “flexcurity” of the Danish model versus the simple handing out of money in exchange for nothing?

    vouchers, charter schools, teacher accountability, school choice

    As the product of thirteen years of Catholic School, I’ll will attest to the need for school choice, but point out that it’s not a panacea to our troubles. Private schools do well because they have the ability to select for students that they want and kick out trouble makers that they don’t want. In turn, if one is interested in sending children to an alternative school and paying through the nose for it, it’s obvious that one is interested in pushing their children further and ensuring their educational success.

    I’m pro charter schools, but I’m against vouchers as it will simply inflate the costs of private schooling similar to how financial aid bloats the cost of colleges and universities, and as a Catholic, I don’t want to see my tax payer dollars going to prop up Protestant schools or schools for other religions. As for teacher accountability, as much as I hate some of the ineffective teachers that I’ve had in high school, I’d be very leery of implementing such reforms, especially in the poor areas. Nobody would bother teaching if your job security and pay relied on getting a bunch of poor kids with uninterested parents to do better in school.

    if a certain percentage of those parents went hungry and homeless.

    If the parents are hungry and homeless, there’s a good chance that the children are hungry and homeless as well.

    Conversely, such a delusion keeps the lower classes tame and docile as they are protected from the knowledge that they are simply fucked in certain areas of life. It gives them hope. That way they can keep spinning their wheels while they are flipping burgers.

    I’ve always found that to be the reason why (hopefully) race realism may never really get off the ground. If black children are genetically too stupid to go to college, it also implies that most white children are genetically barely able to finish college, or attend high ranking schools needed to become high ranking professionals. Nobody wants to hear that their children are doomed and will never have the chance to succeed.

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  178. hello:

    It says that we should devote a lot of financial resources to bright students, regardless of race.

    That was sort of what I was getting at. The public schools were decent where I grew up, but they just didn’t work for me education-wise. The basic problem was that they treated all students as if they were the same. The pace of every class was set to that of the slowest learners — the goal was more to get everyone up to some minimum bar than it was to get each person as far as possible. The most they’d do for smarter kids is assign them “enrichment” materials, i.e., extra homework at the same difficulty level.

    My initial comments were directed at DoJ’s comment that there is an positive externality to children, so that it’s appropriate for the government to subsidize children. My comment: it’s not obvious how we would rigorously conclude that there is a positive externality, and some children are certainly more valuable than others.

    It’s hard to formulate a useful public policy based on this, much less one that has any chance of being enacted. For example, even if IQ-based child subsidies were scientifically demonstrated to be a good idea, I still doubt that they would be enacted.

    I don’t necessarily have a problem with elitism or what you might even call “enlightened aristocracy.” (I *don’t* mean aristocracy in a hereditary sense — to me the modern “aristocracy” would be, say, the folks who’ve won a Nobel Prize.) Elites can often be stupid, and we don’t want a dictatorship of the elite, but I have a huge problem with the modern dogmas of “democracy” and “equality.” Democracy means that every idiot gets a vote. Equality means that we pretend that there is no such thing as an idiot or a genius.

    I also disagree with the idea that “every human life has value.” Some human lives have negative value.

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  179. The outcome is unequal, but it would be a perversion of justice to say that simply because the outcome is unequal that the loser has right to redress.

    Your example is valid, but it’s irrelevant due to the low cost of the transaction. Equality of results doesn’t refer to such small scale events like two men betting or even two professional sports teams playing against each other. It’s something a societal level where we have two races in this country that have the ability to succeed and lead a middle class lifestyle, and one that doesn’t, and IMHO, in the long-run it’s simply an untenable position due to the extreme social isolation that this will cause.

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  180. Seeking_Alpha:

    through a concerted effort to conquer it – by embracing your intellect as your most powerful analytical weapon rather than rejecting it and trying to ‘dumb your game down’ – you can be socially successful.

    Unclear. A frequent comment I see on sites like this one is that people like me are over-analytical: that we have a bias towards thought over action. I would plead guilty on that.

    I used to be really horrible about this: I’d have a phone number and wrack myself over for hours trying to think of what I’d say on the phone. Then it would be too late to call, and the process would repeat the next day. Now I may think briefly about what to say, but not for more than a few minutes; I just pick a time between 8 and 9 and hit Talk, and what happens happens.

    I still have a significant “over-analytical” problem when it comes to cold approaches. And sometimes I’ll know exactly what to say, but I just… don’t. I freeze. One worry that has started to get to me lately is that I have trouble following up after the opener, when all of the sudden I find myself in a high-pressure social situation. I tend to blank out. I have no problem sustaining a conversation for an hour on a date. Sustaining a conversation for 5 minutes in a bar with someone who is not initially interested and talkative, another story.

    As far as dumbing down my game goes: there are some tactics in the Game community that I simply cannot see myself doing. Most of the cold reading stuff, for example. (The “cube” routine is probably the worst example of this.) Totally incongruent with my personality.

    DA:

    The so-called “flexcurity” of the Danish model versus the simple handing out of money in exchange for nothing?

    The Danish model has a lot to be said for it, but it’s not clear that it could be applied to a larger, more diverse nation like America.

    It’s really hard to make *any* single national policy work well in a large, diverse nation. Thus our federalist system; unfortunately the federal government has now amassed so much power that federalism has mostly broken down. There are still differences between states, but the federal government’s share of GDP is significantly greater than the average state/local share of GDP. (20% vs. 10-15%)

    The bigger a nation and the more centralized its government, the worse results I would predict, simply based on public choice theory.

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  181. 174 David Alexander:
    Nobody wants to hear that their children are doomed and will never have the chance to succeed.

    You might be right. Hope is what affords the “food on the chain” the illusion that the door had not been slammed shut a long time ago.

    BTW, stop making this a black/white thing. Social stratification occurrs regardless.

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  182. on October 31, 2008 at 7:08 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @Zorgon – people like us, my friend, not people like you.

    I just pick a time between 8 and 9 and hit Talk, and what happens happens.

    That’s sort of what I meant by dumbing down your game. I think the big takeaway from this site isn’t that you should think less, but rather that you should think in a different direction. There’s an intellectual solution to the problem. You just have to change your framing of it. Not too different from coding really.

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  183. IQ isn’t everything. Social skills and confidence are also very important. But social skills, confidence and high IQ will get you much farther than the first two alone.

    That refutes nothing I’ve said. of course adding IQ to existing social skills and confidence just makes you even better. My point was about isolating IQ too much when trying to place value on someone’s potential or likelihood to succeed.

    For example adding a high IQ to a set of other skills will improve you sure, but what about a person with just a high IQ but no social skills and zero confidence versus someone of average IQ but high confidence and social skills? I’m willing to bet on average the latter does better all-around in life.

    And as far as talking about people you’ve known, no one’s experience is omniscient and that is why we perform empirical studies.

    And empirical studies are often constructed in flawed or incomplete ways, which is why they often get debunked by later empirical studies. That is why it’s good to flesh them out with anecdotal evidence borne out of real life first hand experience rather than examine them in an intellectual vacuum. This out of hand dismissal of anecdotal evidence at the all-important altar of empirical studies is the exact egghead tunnel vision I warn about that we would get if we had an aristocracy based primarily on IQ. Read Darrell Huff’s How to Lie With Statistics to see how people lie with statistics, make mistakes with studies or just manipulate them to say whatever they want to say. Not saying studies aren’t important, just that they are nowhere near as infallible as many believe. To tie it into this blog, a pickup artists can read as many books and studies on attraction as he wants (keyboard jockey) but all the successful pickup artists all agree that they learned the most from personal anecdotes and experiences from the field.

    Read Moynihan’s books on the welfare state and you’ll see there were plenty of social engineering eggheads filled to the brim with data and studies explaining why the great society would work. all the i-bankers, ivy league lawyers turned politicians and mba economists all probably used loads of economic figures and studies to craft their wonderful subprime meltdown. Meanwhile many small mom and pop mortgage guys with their ear to the streets and anecdotal firsthand experience with borrowers were screaming bloody murder about the regulations requiring lax standards for mortgages.

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  184. Oops, that first paragraph in my last comment was supposed to be a quote of “hello’s” comment.

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  185. 177 zorgon:

    One worry that has started to get to me lately is that I have trouble following up after the opener, when all of the sudden I find myself in a high-pressure social situation. I tend to blank out.

    And in that single moment of hesitation, you will have telegraphed to the girl your social ineptitude, regardless of how smooth your opener was. The spell is broken. Like Grace was saying.

    As far as dumbing down my game goes: there are some tactics in the Game community that I simply cannot see myself doing. Most of the cold reading stuff, for example. (The “cube” routine is probably the worst example of this.) Totally incongruent with my personality.

    Don’t sweat it. Most of that shit is done by dweebs and geekazoids anyway.

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  186. @zorgon: The problem is not that your are over-analytical. You’ve already realized your fault: thinking too much. Your problem is your current difficulty with over-coming the freeze up. I agree with Seeking here. Analyzation is in fact your best weapon, as long as you follow through with your conclusions. This is, of course, easier said than done.

    When women are initially uninterested, you’ve got two options. 1, Blow her off. You have standards don’t you? One of your standards is that people are fun. Unsocial, despondant chicks are too closed up and not fun. 2, Percieve that she’s playing a game and that you’ve got to stomp the gas to get your rpms up for the next gear. Often the disinterestedness is a feint to screen you out. Girls like this require you to have solid state control though.
    Generally I find myself going with option one. Boring girls are boring lays.

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  187. on October 31, 2008 at 7:24 pm Seeking_Alpha

    Don’t sweat it. Most of that shit is done by dweebs and geekazoids anyway.

    Is geekazoid the kind of term where by using it, you label yourself with it?

    Cube might be kind of corny, but that kind of thing works great, and it’s actually kind of fun. I was walking back from the beach with a girl and I mentioned how it would be cool if we had a tunnel that went straight from my house to the beach. I saw her eyes light up, so I went with it. I asked questions about what would be in the tunnel, what the floor would be, whether you’d walk it or if there’d be a moving walkway or whatever. Just nonsense questions. She loved it.

    It might be a stupid example, but I’m trying to make a point. The cube, like so much else in Game theory, might seem stupid if you just did it yourself, but if you understand the theory behind why it works, you can adapt it to yourself really easily and it works well.

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  188. 162 Seeking Alpha:

    For the people that you’re talking about that have great game but aren’t like math wizards or whatever, it’s just that they focus their intelligence on social analytics. For naturals, a lot of it is done subconsciously, but it’s still done. It takes pattern recognition to pick up on the subtlest of social cues that naturals are so good at noticing and interpreting. I bet if those people decided that they were sick of their lives and really wanted to become studious, they could.

    Doubtful. “Picking up social cues” has as as much to do with empathy as it does intelligence. And empathy is not as amenable to intellectual analysis. When a natural does it, he is surfing on the feeling of intuition. It is part and parcel of being a feeling human being who can sense his commonality with his fellow man. Since the egghead types we are discussing here became that way most likely as a result of an emotional defeciency born in the service of their cold hard logic, it is unlikely they can mimic a natural with any sort of grace.

    What you’re saying is like suggesting someone can become a soulful singer by undertaking an in depth study of the anatomical and physiological nature of the vocal cords.

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  189. BTW, stop making this a black/white thing. Social stratification occurrs regardless.

    The problem is that this will always be a black-white issue due to the disproportionate number of poor black people when compared to whites. The question of course is do we solve the poor people problem first or the poor black people problem first. As a black person, I’m obviously biased in my desire to have black people be truly equal with and respected by white people.

    The Danish model has a lot to be said for it, but it’s not clear that it could be applied to a larger, more diverse nation like America.

    The problem with the Danish model is that it requires high labour spending to prop up the incomes of transitional workers moving from industrial work into service sector work. In other words, when a factory closes down, we end up with Wal-Mart employees making $20/hr an hour. Nobody wants to pay for that.

    It’s really hard to make *any* single national policy work well in a large, diverse nation.

    I’ve felt that federalism is what creates high tax zones like California and New York with low tax areas like the South or the Mountain West. These states essentially dump their poor residents onto other states who then have to raise their taxes to take care of these dumped residents. Then the high taxes chase out productive residents into the low tax zones. Either the federal government fully funds, mandates, and runs social welfare from the national level to provide for equal benefits everywhere in the US (adjusted by cost of living), or states are allowed to impose residency requirements to prevent states from dumping their poor on generous welfare states.

    As an example, people from other states and territories can come to New York to loot off our generous welfare and secure subsidized housing due to a federal court order that prohibits NYS (and NYC) from declaring residency requirements due to acceptance of federal dollars to partially fund such programs.

    Interestingly, Canada is a federalist paradise, and their federal government is essentially a giant bank that collects tax revenues to give back to the poorer provinces which is slowly becoming most of Canada. Otherwise, the provinces a whole spend more than their Federal government…

    Like


  190. 184 Seeking Alpha:

    re: cube

    There is a difference between what you say/do with a girl upon first approach in a lively social environment and how you speak with her during the comfort/rapport stage.

    Like


  191. on October 31, 2008 at 7:34 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @ TC – I don’t think the analogy of a singer (which is a genetic trait… you can’t learn to have amazing vocal cords… although you can improve with coaching and practice) is correct.

    Intuition is merely pattern recognition in the subconscious. A master chess player playing against an inexperienced player can play intuitively, without thinking much, and still win. When I program, I have an intuitive feel for where bugs are going to be located. That’s just internalized pattern recognition. It’s not a qualitatively different thing.

    What is ’empathy’? It’s identifying and comprehending the mental states of others. It’s absolutely amenable to analysis. Roissy has taught us plenty of social cues to look for, or to give off. Changing your body language to be more alpha. That’s something naturals do, well, naturally. It’s likewise something we can do consciously, but it has the same effect. Recognizing that friendly eye contact from across the room is a come-hither signal. That’s something you can learn to recognize. When a woman’s body language is positive or negative and how to change that. Again, if you learn what to look for, you can identify it and react accordingly.

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  192. on October 31, 2008 at 7:38 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @ 187 – First you said stuff like ‘cube’ doesn’t work, and is only for dweebs and geekazoids. Now you’re saying it works, but only at a certain stage?

    This is an example of why high IQ can be prohibitive to pick-up. You’re spending your time looking for reasons to shoot down ideas and why they won’t work. If you’re smart, it’s easy to argue either side of an issue. The real challenge is to identify what works and execute.

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  193. Agree with 188 Seeking_Alpha. I have the exact same sort of intuition he describes when it comes to computers and math (to an extreme level, especially for computers), or piano and chess (not so much but still some). I could even apply it to other totally different areas like skiing.

    When you’re learning a new skill, you have to think about each step of what you’re doing. Eventually the low-level aspects of the skill become automatic, freeing up your conscious mind to work on higher-level things.

    So then the big question is, can an “unnatural” learn Game to the extent that he becomes natural? I can’t answer that question, but I immediately think of a different question: can an “unnatural” learn computer programming to the extent that he becomes natural?

    My answer: I think it can be learned, with sufficient discipline, but I don’t think the “unnatural” will ever reach the ability levels of the “natural.”

    And why is that? I think with a lot of skills, your maximum ability is set in good part by what age you start learning the skill. The younger the age, the greater your potential.

    I started learning math and computer programming at age 2. I started learning social skills at about age 13.

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  194. zorgon,
    We have ivy league universities whose IQ type test (SATs), although race-blind, tend to select more whites and Asians than blacks and Hispanics. Quotas add more blacks and Hispanics than would be there otherwise and although it’s not ideal it’s better than not having an ivy league at all. A similar compromise could be made with the school system.

    “I’ve always found that to be the reason why (hopefully) race realism may never really get off the ground. If black children are genetically too stupid to go to college, it also implies that most white children are genetically barely able to finish college, or attend high ranking schools needed to become high ranking professionals. Nobody wants to hear that their children are doomed and will never have the chance to succeed.”

    David Alexander,
    I think you’re right about that. IQ insecurity is hardly limited to blacks, and Nazis banned IQ tests because Jews outperformed Gentile Germans. As Charles Murray himself said elsewhere, “There is no magic point at which a genuine college-level education becomes an option, but anything below an IQ of 110 is problematic.”

    The only way to make a bachelor’s degree possible for most of the population is to dumb it down. Most colleges simply accept students with modest test scores and modify the curriculum accordingly. I don’t agree with the credentialism surrounding a college education; many kids who are definitely smart enough for it don’t really want to be there. Spending several hours a week in the library reading and writing papers isn’t for everyone, which is why binge drinking has become a dominant culture on many campuses among bored students.

    And a low IQ (or average IQ) doesn’t inherently make a person less moral, less hardworking or less worthy of respect. I don’t have contempt for people with low IQs; it’s just the way some people are. Also, even assuming that there’s no racial difference in IQ statistically there will always be 50% of the populace that scores below the other half. So, the information economy will cruelly leave some people behind .

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  195. 189 sa:

    I meant the cube sucks for *attraction* and *demonstrating value*, unless you’re gaming nerd girls. The crowds I roll with would laugh at you if you came at them with such things in the first few minutes.

    During isolation or 2nd day meetups, it’s fine for establishing *comfort*.

    Like


  196. on October 31, 2008 at 8:06 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @ TC – The crowds you roll with? Anyone who uses ‘roll’ and ‘geekazoid’ in the same thirty minutes is showing some clear incongruity. So are you a G or a dork? I can’t tell. Based on the overcompensation of Game terminology…

    Like


  197. DA:

    Canada is a federalist paradise, and their federal government is essentially a giant bank that collects tax revenues to give back to the poorer provinces

    That’s not all bad. I’d rather have the federal government engage in pure redistribution than in its current incoherent mixture of poorly targeted redistribution, regulation, heavy-handed bureaucracy, and so on. Same as I would prefer Milton Friedman’s “negative income tax” over the current welfare state.

    The problem with the Danish model is that it requires high labour spending to prop up the incomes of transitional workers moving from industrial work into service sector work. In other words, when a factory closes down, we end up with Wal-Mart employees making $20/hr an hour. Nobody wants to pay for that.

    You allude to an important point: when comparing the US and Europe economically, it’s important to compare on a Purchasing Power Parity basis rather than based on the exchange rate between the dollar and the euro. The US does *very* well internationally on a PPP basis, whereas its standard of living looks kind of mediocre when you use currency exchange rates. Why? Because the cost of living here (outside a few specific areas such as NYC) is remarkably cheap.

    But I don’t think that’s the whole story on why the Danish model wouldn’t work in the US. Why are the Danish able to sustain low unemployment despite generous benefits? I think the answer has to be cultural, e.g., there is a social stigma to living off the dole. Without that social stigma, the Danish model collapses.

    I’ve felt that federalism is what creates high tax zones like California and New York with low tax areas like the South or the Mountain West. These states essentially dump their poor residents onto other states who then have to raise their taxes to take care of these dumped residents.

    I think this is mostly a self-inflicted problem by the high-tax states. The feds don’t necessarily help matters, but take Arizona vs. California. Why did California go down the high-tax road while Arizona stayed relatively low-tax? They’re directly adjacent. They both have lots of Mexican immigrants. Yet for some reason, California ditched its old “Wild West” rugged individualism and went down the leftist rabbit hole, especially starting in the 60s, while Arizona more or less held onto it.

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  198. Animus saidUm
    that’s why I wrote the comment about NA and alcohol.

    But you do understand that the truthfulness of something has zero bearing on if it is a stereotype, don’t you?

    Yes I do. I just think the NA *stereotype* is based largely on fact.

    Like


  199. I disagree, Tupac. The cube is good for attraction and value. It’s fun (You’re engaging parts of her brain most guys do not), and it’s unusual (you have unusual knowledge, IE value). But the reality is it always depends on your delivery.

    IMO, the cube sucks simply because it’s trite and unoriginal. Repeating others verbatim makes me feel like a robot, and making me feel like a robot makes me feel disconnected. Afterall, a parrot isn’t smart just because he repeats a wise saying. Doing what SA talks about and improvising with the principles is cool.

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  200. 188 SA:

    Intuition is merely pattern recognition in the subconscious. A master chess player playing against an inexperienced player can play intuitively, without thinking much, and still win.

    The big difference is that human beings and their behavior during interpersonal dynamics are orders of magnitude more complex and chaotic than by-the-rules games. At a certain point you would have a brain meltdown (the “paralysis of analysis”) if you tried to wrap your head around it all. And the thing with seduction is you don’t have the luxury of taking a moment to reflect upon your moves. All it takes is a moment of hesitation to have significant amounts of information about your value subcommunicated.

    Look, I’m not saying analysis is bad. Not at all. In fact, for clueless guys it’s the ONLY rope of salvation dangling down in their pit of despair. But I’m concerned with better than normal — the elite levels if you will. To break into that league, you’re going to need some deep-level changes in your psyche/personality to hang. A mental checklist of do’s and don’ts won’t cut it.

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  201. T. AKA Ricky Raw,
    No doubt that our Ivy League elite is arrogant, self-serving, and unrealistic. They are numerically facile but have no respect for the truth, which is why the engineer scientific studies for their own purposes instead of submitting their desires to scientific proof. These goofs think that pure brain power can supersede wisdom and common sense, and they never see how smart people for the most part simply rationalize their irrationalities instead of coolly analyzing the world. Of course empathy, experience are important. Of course science can be manipulated. The Harvard grads who ran our financial industry into the ground thought that as long as they could think up clever schemes they could get rich without risking or producing anything, and that naysayers were just idiots. We need to stop fetishizing brain power and temper it with wisdom and ethics.

    Empirical studies are often made “subjective” by errors or bias, but subjective experience, however worthwhile, is by definition always subjective.

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  202. on October 31, 2008 at 8:22 pm Seeking_Alpha

    I hear what you’re saying, but I think it’s a false premise. An athlete makes decisions even faster than in a pick-up, but a lot of what they do is intuition. A running back sees two holes in the line… which one to take? He has to analysis all the defensive players on the field instantaneously, makes predictions about where they’re going and how fast they’ll get there, all in the space of an instant. Most of it is intuition, which is subconscious pattern recognition.

    Likewise, an analytical approach to game is all you have. Maybe you start off with the mental checklist of do’s and don’ts, but soon that checklist becomes subconscious (for instance, I don’t think about body language any more… that’s one thing I’ve got down subconsciously).

    After that, when you go after ‘deep-level changes in your psyche/personality’, how do you identify what changes need to be made? Random trial and error? Of course not. You, again, analyze your weaknesses, construct logical solutions, test, analyze results, and refine. You’re doing it on a more complicated topic, a more complex and esoteric aspect of game, but it’s the same thing.

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  203. I think the modern dogma of equality only means, that supposedly everyone should be equal in terms of justice, legal rights, just that.

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  204. 196 Animus:

    I disagree, Tupac. The cube is good for attraction and value. It’s fun (You’re engaging parts of her brain most guys do not), and it’s unusual (you have unusual knowledge, IE value). But the reality is it always depends on your delivery.

    I can only go by my experience. Unfortunately, there is not a lot of intellectual sophistication where I live. In the bars here you are judged on whether you can “hang” or not. Whether you have good social calibration or not.

    And yes, I absolutely agree that it’s important to be engaging and unusual. I’m just saying that around here you need better material if you want something other than plain janes and aging beauties.

    Like


  205. DA saidOddly, I wouldn’t mind such a situation if I wasn’t married to her. I get to play hero and feel useful, and she gets a beta to prop her up. Hell, there may be a 10% chance for sex, and I can write off her kid as a dependent.

    DA, I believe that many men like ready-made families for the reasons you stated. I think the hero and provider gene is very strong in men. It’s the reason attractive women who “have it together” have problems finding a mate.

    T saidYou may get someone of average IQ like Ronald Reagan who turns out to be one of the greatest Presidents of the 20th century

    screams

    *dead faint*

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  206. 199 SA:

    I think we have gotten derailled.

    My original contention was that for geeky egghead types, their lack of common humanity and feeling will be a huge obstacle regardless of the improvements they make in their strategizing. It was zorgon, I think, who said he simply hates most people. When someone has a feeling/belief like that, you are talking about something fundamental to their identity. Something that can not be plastered over with “game”. Well, it can be plastered over, and they can find some measure of success, but I think that aspect of themselves will leak out and be revealed no matter how much game they use. Particularly since Game is largely modelled on how successful, affable, and gregarious people act. It’s like a fundamental contradiction in their premises.

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  207. on October 31, 2008 at 8:41 pm Seeking_Alpha

    204 TC:

    Fair point. You’re saying inner game is required. I’m saying inner game can be analyzed and fixed. You’re saying that these people aren’t likely to do that. I say you’re right. As someone who also hates most people, I will say that it is possible to change both inner game and outer. But I agree the change isn’t likely.

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  208. Tupac:

    It was zorgon, I think, who said he simply hates most people.

    No, no — I think you may be mixing me up with another poster. From another thread, it was misterdobalina who said: “I dislike about 95% of the people I meet. (really, I can’t stand most women, and I can’t fake well enough to get laid)”

    I, on the other hand, had that attitude up to about age 15 or so: the attitude that most people simply were lesser beings than me and that they were not worth my attention. This was a *huge* roadblock to my social development.

    Fortunately, I found an adult mentor in my teens who helped me straighten out some of the worst attitude and other social problems I had, this being one of them. (A guy who’s worked with harder cases than me.)

    I do still lack empathy to a large extent. I tend to connect with people on a logical, not an emotional, level.

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  209. 44 Whiskey

    > Rising women’s incomes, social freedom, independence, will ALWAYS create single mothers, absent social constraints on both men and women’s sexuality. This is proven time and again throughout the West.

    It’s also true in other parts of the world. Look at historic Sub-saharan Africa. The ecology made it very easy for a single woman to raise crops for herself and her family, entertaining itinerant sperm-donors when desired. Contrast that to places where it was historically impossible for a single mother to create her own independent subsistence existence (e.g., places with winter, monsoons, etc).

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  210. You can learn to change that “I don’t like most people” bit. Ain’t easy. But can be done.

    Like


  211. 174 David Alexander

    Nobody would bother teaching if your job security and pay relied on getting a bunch of poor kids with uninterested parents to do better in school.

    This will remain true as long as we aren’t allowed to accurately estimate “value added.”

    I’ve always found that to be the reason why (hopefully) race realism may never really get off the ground. If black children are genetically too stupid to go to college, it also implies that most white children are genetically barely able to finish college, or attend high ranking schools needed to become high ranking professionals. Nobody wants to hear that their children are doomed and will never have the chance to succeed.

    I’m sympathetic to being circumspect about race realism for the reasons you describe. We don’t have all the solutions ready yet, so the time for fully open discussion has not yet arrived.

    But I nevertheless support Sailer because being circumspect is not the same thing as trying to pretend the facts don’t exist at all. When you are opposed to the very research that will give all of these “doomed” descendants an actual chance, just because the transitional phase might be a little painful, you become the enemy of your own people. (And of me.)

    175 zorgon

    My initial comments were directed at DoJ’s comment that there is an positive externality to children, so that it’s appropriate for the government to subsidize children. My comment: it’s not obvious how we would rigorously conclude that there is a positive externality, and some children are certainly more valuable than others.

    I made sure to refer to “children of responsible parents,” rather than children in general. (Incidentally, David D. Friedman attempted to estimate the externalities of the marginal child a few decades ago, and could not figure out the sign. So I’m well aware that it’s far from clear what impact the average child has, but with the “responsible parents” clause I think the evidence is on my side.)

    203 Tupac Chopra

    It was zorgon, I think, who said he simply hates most people.

    No, that was misterdobalina in the other thread (post #182). I don’t think either zorgon or I are anywhere near that misanthropic.

    I just find most people somewhat boring; but this is obviously not a problem with the girls I’m attracted to. The problem there is my weak social skills, stemming both from lack of practice and perhaps too much indoctrination regarding blunt honesty. I don’t lack humanity or feeling; what I lack is the instincts for expressing them in a manner that doesn’t drive others away. This is the sort of thing a judicious application of “game” should plaster over.

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  212. #167 Tired,

    I was just trying to account for where the stereotype of the “dumb Polack” could have originated. IIRC, it was a Polish mathematician who helped crack the German Enigma machine. I don’t know of any reason, including pride, why Poles would differ from their neighbors in intelligence. Then again, that’s not a culture I know well, despite Buffalo having had a large Polish population when I lived near there.

    I’m overly sensitive to this, because my wife gets this stuff all the time from the people she works with. Why isn’t your English perfect, you’ve lived here a long time? Well, she’s the one who knows accounting, not them, and she’s smarter and better looking, and we make more money than they do, so the losers have to have something to say.

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  213. zorgon, do you have an email where i can email u?

    thx.

    Like


  214. each one of those shows reminds me of my time spent in the educationg system. the ignorant piledriving one another into having more kids than they could ever afford even if they did have money more than their minimum slave wage jobs. utterly revolting….and the reason why we have the electoral college.

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  215. Raphael: all my existing email addresses had my name in them, so I just created a new one: zorgon83 at yahoo dot com.

    I may not check it super often, but it’s there.

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  216. anony
    I work in medicine and have had many occasions to inform teens from the projects that they are pregnant. They are often giddy, giggly to know. It makes them important. They matter.

    I’m not from the projects but I am from a very tuff area where most of you would not feel safe walking alone at night.

    Those teens know it’s not sociably acceptable to become pregnant at such a young age(even in the projects) . I waited a little later before I started to indulge because I knew without a doubt that I didn’t want children. I also didn’t want to ask my mother for birth control.

    When I talk to those types of girls there are a variety of reason why they became pregnant:
    1. Sometimes the boyfriend will tell the girl, he wants her to have a baby for him. At the same time, the idiot boyfriend knows he does not intend on being there once the kid comes along.

    2. As a group, black girls only recently started to engage in othe types of seX acts like the Monica.

    3. There is finally someone to love them.

    4. To keep a man or mistakenly thinking that the man will never leave his baby. They view having a baby as the greatest gift a woman can give a man.
    5. For the attention.

    6. Lack of sex education. There are people in this country who know what pre-C.oMe is, think you won’t get pregnant your first time, or that anal sEx is the riskest form of sex( HIV/AIDs)

    7. To get their own home/apartment for their peace of mind. If you grew up in a home where there was a lot of abuse, fighting, overcrowded etc… you may be willing to do whatever it takes to get out to. Don’t forget that we now have 3-4 .
    generation welfare/ public assistance families in this country.

    To some extent, those families have become welfare dynasties. If someone makes 30k in those families, they are seen as almost rich. I’ve met people who really don’t know that you are suppose to wear a suit or at the very least, dress business causal for a job interview. Then again, how are they to know if no one in their family has had a job?

    8. Distrust of the medical establishment and the powers that be. Read about the Tuskegee experiment, John Hopkins lead paint study and Hurricane Katrina just to name a few.

    FYI, welfare is no longer something one can be on for a life time, former President Clinton dismantled the old system. Now you have a maximum time of 5* years on the dole. The system has come closer to how it should have originally been composed. President Clinton and George Bush leave me confused when attempting to define a liberal vs a conservative president. It’s the reason I pay more attention to what the candidate promises to do versus party affiliation.

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  217. Spending several hours a week in the library reading and writing papers isn’t for everyone

    Amazingly, that’s how I screwed up at the second college. I did well on the tests and engaged in class discussions, but I didn’t do the papers, so I failed out. Ooops.

    Same as I would prefer Milton Friedman’s “negative income tax” over the current welfare state.

    One could argue that we have a half-assed version of that via the Earned Income Tax Credits. In theory, the negative income tax is effective since it doesn’t require various qualification methods and an apparatus to operate it, but it’s not good at solving problems directly. As an example, a negative income tax doesn’t help a poor person get health care if they’re employed, and it comes via a lump sum which is no good for somebody that needs assistance now.

    Because the cost of living here (outside a few specific areas such as NYC) is remarkably cheap.

    I’ve concluded that the high cost of living is why European birthrates are in the toilet. Cheap and large housing is basically a subsidy to high birthrates and the Europeans lack both.

    Why are the Danish able to sustain low unemployment despite generous benefits?

    IIRC, the Danish benefits are good, but require schooling or constant seeking of employment opportunities. In the long-term, if you don’t find work, your unemployment benefits are cut significantly, so it’s much more enticing to work. In addition, unlike in say France or Italy, Denmark makes it relatively easy to fire or hire as necessary allowing for labour flexibility.

    I would imagine there is a cultural component as well. Not in the sense that living off welfare is shameful, but that not-working is not an acceptable alternative to working in a service job.

    I think this is mostly a self-inflicted problem by the high-tax states.

    I look at the problem from this viewpoint. The high-tax states tend to be more established states with old money and large urban populations. In other words, people will see poor people in their area and demand that something be done about it. Thus the programmes begin for the poor and to pay for it, resources are diverted and taxes are raised. Then out-of-state residents hear about the generous programs, and then they begin to move to take advantage of such programs which increases the burden and requires even higher taxes to pay for it. Eventually, taxes can reach a point where the opportunity costs are too high and companies and residents begin to flee to other states which exacerbates the taxation problems on the tax base that’s left.

    Mind you, one reason for high taxes is because of high cost of living for municipal and state employees. In other words, unless you want third rate cops and teachers, you’ll need to pay high taxes to ensure that they can have middle class salaries too. Don’t forget debt servicing and pensions…

    IMHO, if you want lower state and local taxes, move as much funding as possible to the federal level to spread the tax base around…

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  218. 1. PA
    None was as shocked about the Polish stereotype as I was when I came to the U.S. from Poland duirng the mid-80s as a teenager

    This^^^ should of given you empathy for other groups who are ostracized.

    1. PA
    I meant to add that after those fights, I got all-around respect from everyone at school and there were no more problems

    Most people f*ck with those who they think they can beat. This ^^^ highlights the importance of winning your first fight as the new kid at a new school. I would add that this translates to anyplace you will travel to in life. If you start a new job and allow one of your coworkers to humailate you in front of your coworkers, expect the same as time goes on. If you are a man, don’t look forward to getting lucky with any of your female coworkers.

    Seeking alpha said The bell curve, which makes sense, also means that some level of poverty is inevitable. The welfare state sees any inequality of result as an inequality of opportunity and attempts to engineer a fake equality.
    You make a very good point here, some level of poverty is inevitable. That means that all of us can’t live in Mansions and drive new cars. However, with a country as wealthy as America*, no one should be eating out of trashcans or unwillingly living on the streets.

    * At least we are told this is a wealthy country.

    Lance said you want a society that rewards productive behavior, not just being born with a high IQ
    I agree
    the problem with the welfare state is that it wants to provide everyone with cradle to grave protections and therefore kills people’s incentives to strive on their own behalf
    I partially agree. I think the “welfare state” has many benefits:
    1. Universal healthcare is for the greater good of society. You may not think so until you are sick or suffering from an illness that causes you intense pain.
    2. Welfare/unemployment should be temporary for those who find themselves out of work. If things turn out as bad as some economists predict, there may be a number of commenters here who will find themselves in the welfare line.
    Today I came across two men conversing about the economy. Both men were prole blks(HS), one of two was feeling down because he hadn’t a job in four months. The other replied, “I don’t know how you do it, I would of gone crazy”.
    There are people who take advantage of the system but I really don’t think most people view welfare as a viable career option. As you mentioned earlier, overtime a portion of the underclass will think welfare is their lot in life.

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  219. DA, I believe that many men like ready-made families for the reasons you stated. I think the hero and provider gene is very strong in men.

    One of the side effects of dating a single mom is that you’ll see how she’ll really act with kids and how she looks with stretch marks. Hell, you’ll get to see how eager she is for sex when she’s tired and under stress…

    The ecology made it very easy for a single woman to raise crops for herself and her family, entertaining itinerant sperm-donors when desired.

    That’s also been my personal theory as to the source of black average low IQ. Winter climates tend to weed out those who cannot think ahead to prepare for winter and the lack of food and warm shelter, and despite the Ice Age, Africa’s climate is mostly unaffected by the effects of winter, ensuring that anybody can survive due to plentiful access to food.

    This will remain true as long as we aren’t allowed to accurately estimate “value added.”

    Even if you can come up with a system that measures progress, why would anybody teach in a school where the students come from homes where improvement is not reinforced. Would you bet your salary and job security on the interest of students wanting to do well if they live in an environment where academic achievement is not emphasized?

    you become the enemy of your own people. (And of me.)

    I’d argue that you’re the enemy of my people as you seek to make their lives even more miserable by aiding the people who hate them with a passion. Unless you can guarantee a painless transitional phase, then no amount of pain is worth going through the phase especially since we have idea of how long it will take to develop various treatments and if such treatments are effective with no or few side effects. Besides, the last thing that I want is to have white nationalists boasting about how black people need treatments made by white people to be smart and effective. I want black people to be naturally successful and equal to whites.

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  220. hello
    Do you think President Obama will dismantle welfare? A significant percentage of our population, including children, would starve w/o it and we won’t allow that
    Hello, Bill Clinton cleaned the system up to a large extent.
    Benito Hoover The laws that allow sexual profligacy but hold men to more responsibility are outdated. If women are that independent they should be able to take care of their children.
    Or men could make the decision to not sleep with women without the use of a condom and take any used condoms home with them wrapped inside of a piece of toilet paper or a napkin. Always use a condom, I don’t care if you partner told you she was on birth control, so what? Is she the first woman to tell a man she is on the pill??? What if your partner didn’t take her pill at her usual time today and instead took it 5 hrs later because she forgot or overslept? What if she vomited? What if she is on antibiotics like rifampin, ampicillin? Better safe than sorry.

    The
    BTW, for my Science and number people, there are studies, papers or reports on the effectiveness of birth control when coupled with antibiotics. Agnostic, do your magic buddy.

    PA said thus placing the onus of improving said group’s behavior where it belongs: on the members of that group. Not on other people who notice these things and respond appropriately.

    PA, I don’t agree. People are responsible for themselves not the actions of those who happen to share the same phenotype, religion or ethnicity.

    If you call me the N word, I will not go to Roissy and expect him to apologize for your wrong doing simply because you are both white. If T steals your car, why should DA and I apologize for him?

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  221. DA:

    Winter climates tend to weed out those who cannot think ahead to prepare for winter and the lack of food and warm shelter

    I don’t believe I originally came up with this theory, but a long-standing theory of mine and a friend of mine is that the most brilliant people tend to be largely of Northern European extraction. They’re always English, Dutch, German, Nordic, Russian, etc. Even when they’re European, they’re rarely Spanish, Italian, etc. This was based on observation of who the “best of the best” folks were at my old employer.

    There are plenty of *smart* people from those other areas. It may even be that the average Asian software or hardware engineer is smarter than the average European software or hardware engineer. You just don’t find the extremes of genius there. The guys who made you say, “wow, this guy is *amazingly* smart” were all Northern European, down to just about the last one. (And of course 100% male, but that should go without saying when we’re talking about brilliant SW and HW engineers.)

    I happen to be German, Scottish, Swedish, and a few other random things, but 100% Northern European.

    Like


  222. Men who don’t want to wear condoms are a real problem. I’ve broken up with two former boyfriends because they didn’t want to wear condoms. They attempted to use the argument that we had been together for a while so it was no longer necessary. I called major BS there, my thinking is – if we are not married, you need to strap up. I’m on BC(backup) but I lie and said I’m not.
    Guess what, those idiots were still willing to chance it.
    I said: I am prolife and I will carry the baby to term no matter what?
    Boyfriend: 1. you won’t get pregnant just this once
    or
    2. Well, then we will get married
    I said: I will take 20 percent of your income for the next 18-21 years. Are you really ready for that. …
    Boyfriend: Well *blank face* let’s just try it this once.
    I said: It only takes one time. Thousands of dollars for 30 minutes or less.
    Boyfriend: Well just for two minutes. Look let me put the head in
    I said: *hottie blinks* Have you heard of precome??? You leak like a runny facet so I’m sure I will be pregnant in less than 30 seconds if we tried that.
    Boyfriend: *look of confusion* you can’t get pregnant like that.
    I said: Um, yes you can. A number of men have knocked women up like this btw.
    In fact, let me find my sister’s A&P textbook to prove it to you.
    There is more but I think you get the point. Don’t tempt fate, Wrap it up.

    Like


  223. To keep a man or mistakenly thinking that the man will never leave his baby. They view having a baby as the greatest gift a woman can give a man.

    That’s how my mom ended up with my older brother. Surprisingly, it didn’t work and this was pre-abortion so we all know what happened, and no she did not go on welfare.

    Lack of sex education.

    The type of men who impregnate girls on demand for the boost in ego are the same type to either ignore or forget what was taught in sex ed, or the type to drop out of high school or cut class and avoid learning it.

    To get their own home/apartment for their peace of mind.

    Getting pregnant at 16 gives you nothing, but getting pregnant at 18-19 is pretty much an easy way to ensure Section 8 or subsidized housing in some areas. Staying single and going to work after high school means that you’re stuck living at home with a mother that you probably have lots of arguments with in a small one to two bedroom apartment.

    There’s a reason why most teenage pregnancies occur to eighteen and nineteen year old women…

    Don’t forget that we now have 3-4 generation welfare/ public assistance families in this country.

    That’s one of Whiskey’s arguments, and it’s one of the big problems with continued welfare use. Some have argued that the underclass is isolated from the rest of American society, and this prohibits their ability to adopt and conform to mainstream norms. As pointed out in your example Chic, those who don’t know that one has to speak proper English or wear a business dress for a job interview. It’s the main reason why I feel the need to be active in the lives of my niece and nephew.

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  224. DA:

    While there are people who abuse the welfare system, I think that the bigger problem is the disincentive for people that want to get off of it because of how it is implemented. The cutoffs for what is considered eligibility is too black and white and provides no way for individual consideration. At $4:40/hr with two kids, I qualify for medicaid, food stamps and whatever crap the government gives out (Don’t challenge me because I’m just pulling the numbers out of my ass). At this rate, govt pays part of my insurance premium too and think they also pay my medical deductible. I’m probably eligible for section 8 so my rent is cheap. More random number pulling out of my pooper, but the point I’m trying to make is still valid. Assume the part of my medical premium that uncle sam is paying for is $60/m, my discount off my rent $300/m; grocery savings from stamps $60/m. Just to mention a few. If the cutoff is $5/hr wage to be on the program, How much of a wage increase do I need to be able to afford my poverty-stricken lifestyle without uncle Sam and what are the chances of me actually getting that jump in income if we consider the demographic associated with these programs?

    Like


  225. zorgon- the author of The Iceman Inherritance said what you wrote(#218) and bit more.
    Is being Scottish considered Northern European?

    Like


  226. DA saidIt’s the main reason why I feel the need to be active in the lives of my niece and nephew
    Thank you for doing so.

    Getting pregnant at 16 gives you nothing, but getting pregnant at 18-19 is pretty much an easy way to ensure Section 8 or subsidized housing in some areas.
    I knew a girl who was about 16 with a baby and living on her own. Maybe she was an emancipated youth, I not sure but she was certainly living on her own.

    Like


  227. On the other hand, people from northern regions often look to more easygoing, sumptuous places (Italy, Tahiti, Bali, Africa) for lessons in “how to enjoy life,” “how to exist in the here and now,” “good eating,” “good sex,” “fabulous patterns and colors,” “enjoying the body,” etc.

    Northern people may tend to achieve a lot, and to do well in a material sense, but they’re also prone to feeling agonized and tormented, and like they’re missing out on comfort, well-being, a sense of ease … They work, they strive, they struggle … And then they move to Tusacany for their retirement, or they vacation in Bali to renew themselves. Africa sounds generally hellish these days (what do I know?), but northern Euros in search of adventure and mystery used to go there in droves. You don’t hear a lot of Africans or Italians going on about feeling alienated from their very beings!

    And I think it can certainly be argued that one of the gifts that people of African descent have given to life in the U.S. is warmth, immediacy, “being,” sensuality, improvisational (ie., in-the-moment) wit and humor … I gather from black friends that it isn’t unusual for them to look at white people and think, “They’re missing the whole point of life!”

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  228. Is being Scottish considered Northern European?

    I would certainly think so. Many great Enlightenment thinkers were Scottish. Adam Smith, David Hume, etc.

    Like


  229. Men who don’t want to wear condoms are a real problem.

    I’ll wear a condom for you 😛

    Like


  230. And on this blog, high IQ actually loses you points on the Dating Market Value Test for Men, which I can personally attest is an accurate evaluation.

    Petter said:That’s only an issue at very high I.Q. levels, where people (males, at least) often fall off the “nerd cliff” and have severely underdeveloped social skills and are deeply introverted.

    Peter, a male commenter (not a regular) here once mentioned IQ was an important marker in determining the type of woman he approaches in a bar*. I didn’t respond to his comment but it knocked me for six. You don’t walk up to people you don’t know and start asking them their IQ. WTF
    At the end of the day, the most intelligent people in a society must be able to relate to the average or normal people. If not, then they will become isolated and socially awkward

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  231. DA saidI’ll wear a condom for you

    😯

    but i’m blk DA and not a light skinned blk chic either. I’m medium in complexion.

    Micheal Blowhard saidAfrica sounds generally hellish these days (what do I know?)

    I won’t go into the whole Africa is very diverse blah blah blah because I am sure you are well aware of that. Countries like Ghana, Senegal (Muslim country btw), Morocco and Ethiopia (-border war Somalia) are largely peaceful. Places like the Congo, both the former French colony and King Leopold’s personal colony are very unstable. The West, China and Arab/Muslim countries all place a very important role in the Congo’s problems. *There are a number of reasons why but I won’t bore you. Kenya is unstable because of the election that took place earlier this year. As you know, Zimbabwe is also unstable. Tony Blair plays as large of a role in Zimbabwe’s problems as Robert Mugabe.

    Like


  232. michael blowhard,
    You’re right, there’s no superior race or perfect culture. There are always trade-offs, which is why travel is a must for a well-rounded person.

    Like


  233. The cutoffs for what is considered eligibility is too black and white and provides no way for individual consideration.

    That’s the main problem with pushing people from welfare to work. Going off welfare in some cases requires giving up the other supports like Medicaid, Food Stamps, and/or Section 8 which makes working a disincentive. I’ve generally felt that benefits should be boosted for those who work with a gradual decline in terms of benefits given as income increases. EITC is good for boosting incomes, but the cash in a refund check doesn’t cover up the money given towards paying for healthcare, and it comes too late in helping a family purchase food or housing.

    BTW, IMHO, EITC checks should come with an option to deposit money in a high yield CD that comes with additional funding to encourage savings among the poor. In other words, if one receives $500 as EITC, the government should add an extra $50 if one chooses to keep the money saved in the bank along with the high yield interest.

    but i’m blk DA and not a light skinned blk chic either.

    If you’re smart, attractive, and have nails, skin colour isn’t a problem. 🙂

    Besides, if you’re medium in complexion, you’re no darker than me, and your blog implies use of makeup and the possibility of 5 inch stiletto heels…

    I won’t go into the whole Africa is very diverse blah blah blah because I am sure you are well aware of that.

    That’s the problem with Africa. While African nations aren’t rich, you have some like Senegal that are democratic and stable, others like Equatorial Guinea that are stable but still run by presidents for life, unstable kleptocracies like Zimbabwe, and the few hellholes like Congo. The problem is that everybody talks about Zimbabwe or Congo, but nobody talks about Senegal or Botswana.

    BTW, Morocco isn’t “African”, but it’s labeled as an Arab state.

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  234. chic noir,
    You can’t reliably gauge a person’s IQ by talking to them. You might be able to feel out their verbal intelligence, but you couldn’t guess their quant skills. He may look for shyness or nerdiness, although if he does ask for IQ he’s probably beyond all hope.

    Like


  235. MarkD
    @Tired of Smoke Rings,

    Well, we all have to feel superior in some way. What easier way than to look down on “the other?” It’s a lot easier than actually working to accomplish something. Call the Polish guy dumb, because he doesn’t speak in perfect, unaccented English. It’s easy. The people who do NEVER speak another language. That would be hard.

    Comment of the day!

    Like


  236. hello
    michael blowhard,
    You’re right, there’s no superior race or perfect culture. There are always trade-offs, which is why travel is a must for a well-rounded person

    I agree 200%. Traveling has made me into a much better person.

    although if he does ask for IQ he’s probably beyond all hope.

    lol agreed

    Like


  237. 216 David Alexander

    Even if you can come up with a system that measures progress, why would anybody teach in a school where the students come from homes where improvement is not reinforced. Would you bet your salary and job security on the interest of students wanting to do well if they live in an environment where academic achievement is not emphasized?

    High risk, high return. Any fair accounting would handsomely reward teachers who manage to maintain order and instill a positive attitude in such kids. No “these kids must pass an algebra test in eighth grade” nonsense, which forces rampant cheating and worse than useless teaching-to-the-test.

    I’d argue that you’re the enemy of my people as you seek to make their lives even more miserable by aiding the people who hate them with a passion. Unless you can guarantee a painless transitional phase, then no amount of pain is worth going through the phase especially since we have idea of how long it will take to develop various treatments and if such treatments are effective with no or few side effects. Besides, the last thing that I want is to have white nationalists boasting about how black people need treatments made by white people to be smart and effective. I want black people to be naturally successful and equal to whites.

    Look, I would be all for black people being “naturally successful and equal to whites” if it were possible. But under your definition of “natural,” the evidence too strongly suggests that it simply can’t happen, any more than a guy like me could be just as naturally successful with the ladies as Casanova.

    Low population IQ = minimal control over your own destiny, which is why we have stuff like

    228 chic noir

    Places like the Congo, both the former French colony and King Leopold’s personal colony are very unstable. The West, China and Arab/Muslim countries all place a very important role in the Congo’s problems. *There are a number of reasons why but I won’t bore you. Kenya is unstable because of the election that took place earlier this year. As you know, Zimbabwe is also unstable. Tony Blair plays as large of a role in Zimbabwe’s problems as Robert Mugabe.

    With some luck, an African country can fail to attract any negative attention from more powerful countries, and escape selfish strongman rule. But that’s really the best possible outcome right now. There’s no hope of Asian Tiger-style rapid technological advancement and assertion of an important role in the world economy. Little hope of finding a better source of wealth than supplying China with resources.

    I don’t know about you, but I don’t consider this state of being permanently acceptable for any group of humans.

    218 zorgon

    I don’t believe I originally came up with this theory, but a long-standing theory of mine and a friend of mine is that the most brilliant people tend to be largely of Northern European extraction. They’re always English, Dutch, German, Nordic, Russian, etc. Even when they’re European, they’re rarely Spanish, Italian, etc. This was based on observation of who the “best of the best” folks were at my old employer.

    There are plenty of *smart* people from those other areas. It may even be that the average Asian software or hardware engineer is smarter than the average European software or hardware engineer. You just don’t find the extremes of genius there. The guys who made you say, “wow, this guy is *amazingly* smart” were all Northern European, down to just about the last one.

    This varies a fair bit by field, but as a first approximation it’s consistent with my observations.

    Like


  238. BTW, Morocco isn’t “African”, but it’s labeled as an Arab state

    DA, Morocco is located in Northern Africa. The large bulk of the Moroccon population is of Arab orgin but the country is located in North Africa. Morocco is located near Senegal.

    <a http://teacherweb.ftl.pinecrest.edu/snyderd/APHG/projects/MUN-BC/maps/africa%201885.gif

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  239. any more than a guy like me could be just as naturally successful with the ladies as Casanova

    DoJ- if you learn some tongue tricks trust me, you will have woman on you like glue.

    Like


  240. 231 hello

    although if he does ask for IQ he’s probably beyond all hope.

    Yeah, that is fucked up. Though, oddly enough, it doesn’t seem so fucked up to put IQ test applets on your Facebook page? (I thought it was, but then I noticed my sister had done exactly that and she’s a lot more socially normal than I am, and I saw it elsewhere as well, so I’m kinda confused now.)

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  241. Chic, what is that horrid thing you’re using as your avatar?

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  242. Blowhard, that seems to be a stereotype without any accuracy, i.e. “southern” type peoples are “warm and life-affirming” etc.

    For example, the greatest achievers in the field of Jazz have been historically guys like Sonny Rollins, who in his late 50’s took a year off to relearn his technique, practicing in the middle of the Brooklyn Bridge for 10 hours a day, every day. His practice regime would put Heifitz and other concert performers to shame.

    Meanwhile, guys like Larry the Cable guy or that “You Might Be a Redneck” comedian or many country music stars have a laid back attitude. As does king of the nerds, Bill Gates, Mr. Low Key himself. Who wouldn’t have a great attitude with that wealth and power?

    It’s more likely a projection of greater levels of sunlight, than anything else.

    Look at deaths by hypertension and so on — Blacks live in a high stress environment in the Urban Core — which tends to put the lie to the easygoing nature. Nothing more stressful than contemplating being shot.

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  243. To #234 (and all the rest of you),

    The English used to have a saying: Wogs begin at Calais.

    Wog = stupid, foreign, often black person

    Calais = the other, non-English side of the English channel

    Quite likely some of them still say this when there aren’t any wogs around. Of course, that means that most of us wouldn’t hear them.

    Clio

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  244. Clio – every culture in the world has some kind of a playfully chauvinistic comment about the “other.” When you cite the English saying “Wogs begin at Calais”, I say, “so what.”

    What should the English now do to atone for this horrofic HateSpeak? Invite every Wog in the world to live in England, and imprison anyone who objects? Oh wait; they already did that.

    Clio, I wonder if you, as a Christian, haven’t confused Christ’s teachings with Marx’s.

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  245. on October 31, 2008 at 11:41 pm ironrailsironweights

    Most people f*ck with those who they think they can beat. This ^^^ highlights the importance of winning your first fight as the new kid at a new school. I would add that this translates to anyplace you will travel to in life. If you start a new job and allow one of your coworkers to humailate you in front of your coworkers, expect the same as time goes on. If you are a man, don’t look forward to getting lucky with any of your female coworkers.

    Something of this sort is reputed to happen in prisons. As a form of initiation ritual, an inmate – usually the biggest thug in the cell block – will try to steal something from a “new fish.” It might be something as simple as food from a cafeteria tray. If the new inmate fights back, he will earn the respect of the other ones and have a decent enough time in prison. He might be severely beaten when he fights back, but that’s okay. It’s the willingness to fight that counts.

    Now, if the new inmate doesn’t fight back, and lets his food or other property be stolen, suffice to say that he’ll find sitting down a very painful process.

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  246. DOJ,
    The sub-Saharan countries have lower IQs than the black American average, and there’s not enough racial admixture to account for it. I think that improvements in health, nutrition and education will raise IQs in sub-Saharan Africa as in the western world although it will take generations before the fall-out from AIDS before such improvements will affect IQ. Also, I think that the Big Man culture which promotes tribal affiliation over individual achievement stagnates growth, and that isn’t related to IQ.

    And from a racial realist standpoint I’ll say that many of the problems you mention regarding American blacks are a result of welfare and crack. Black communities were more stable during the fifties, and Steve Sailer himself believes that Roe vs. Wade and welfare set off the high rates of black illegitimacy that plague them today.

    Finally, I want to thank DA and Chic Noir for participating so civilly in this discussion. I’d never have thought that a PUA blog could be the forum for such honest and non-judgemental racial debate, but I’m glad it did. Sailer never seems to get any black people to talk turkey over at his blog, though I’m sure the stormfront commentators and all the time he spends asking his ouija board questions about Obama’s childhood don’t help.

    Like


  247. He might be severely beaten when he fights back, but that’s okay. It’s the willingness to fight that counts.

    What Chic and Peter are saying is very true. The one thing that separates today’s adult middle class men who are “fight virgins” from ones who aren’t is the fear of violence. Which includes getting the fear of beat up.

    Like


  248. which is why travel is a must for a well-rounded person

    I only travel to countries and cities with trains. Anybody feel like subsidizing my trips? 🙂

    High risk, high return.

    Why deal with the stress of trying to push ghetto kids to learn when you can go teach in a suburban school and earn a decent salary while teaching kids who want to learn. A few people have said that I’d be a great teacher, but I’m much too beta to teach, and too small and timid to gain the respect of a bunch of kids in the ghetto.

    As for testing, it’s the only means we have measuring the knowledge of children. I’m open to any other idea if you can suggest one.

    Look, I would be all for black people being “naturally successful and equal to whites” if it were possible.

    It has to be natural, or it just aids the white nationalist/race realist types. Plus, as I said, the problem is that the transitional phase has to be painless, lest one drive people like myself into a deep depression and social isolation waiting for something that may never come within our lifetimes or help us. In such a transitional phase, why would I want to marry and have kids if they’re just going to be excluded from the rest of society for being low IQ.

    In addition, this all presumes that black people will line up to take the “smart pills” or whatever treatments are developed…

    DA, Morocco is located in Northern Africa.

    Morocco is in Africa, but culturally, it’s an Arab-Berber state that has more in common with the rest of the Mahgreb than the lands south of it like Senegal.

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  249. Whiskey — Sure it’s a stereotype, but it’s one subscribed-to and accepted by many, including northern Euros who flock to Bali and Greece to vacation and who buy homes in Umbria and Provence. I won’t speak for black people (though I suggest you have a read of Albert Murray and Ralph Ellison, two black geniuses I’ve learned a lot from), but I’ve known plenty of Greeks, Italians, and Spaniards who think northerners are too intellectual, don’t know how to enjoy themselves, etc. Think Italy, dude: melody, opera, fashion, food, fabrics (but also strikes, governments that last about a year, cars that fall apart, etc). They’re a people with an immense cultural gift for sensuality. My Sicilian barber cuts hair well (manual labor, style), wears clothes well (fashion, style), has a nice garden (sunlight, living things), is proud of cooking and eating well (food), and thinks Americans worry too much about money and miss the point of life in all their franticness. He’d be insulted if you said something like, “Oh, it’s just a stereotype that Italians have a gift for sensuality, food, and style.” Of course Italians (generally speaking, many exceptions allowed for, etc) have a gift for those things.

    And, who exactly said that jazz isn’t hard? Or that topflight black performers don’t practice a lot?

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  250. on November 1, 2008 at 12:00 am ironrailsironweights

    What Chic and Peter are saying is very true. The one thing that separates today’s adult middle class men who are “fight virgins” from ones who aren’t is the fear of violence. Which includes getting the fear of beat up.

    As I’ve said countless times over the past seven years, I am absolutely convinced that if most middle- and upper-middle class white men weren’t “fight virgins” more than 3,000 lives would have been saved and America wouldn’t have descended into panty piddling paranoia. Michael Moore was right.

    Unfortunately, the typical non-prole white man cannot even think of slamming his fist into another man’s face, no matter how dire the situation. Fighting back? That’s for other people – ghetto gangbangers, rednecks, drunken fratboys. What they are too clueless to realize is that sometimes you have to be willing to fight.

    Peter

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  251. DA,
    If there’s anything that excludes blacks from society it will be violence and dysfunctional behaviors like illegitimacy. As others here have pointed out a high IQ can impair socialization rather than aid it. Also, a low groups average IQ doesn’t mean that individuals cannot have high ones. As a race realist (who is emphatically not a white nationalist) I judge individual blacks on an individual basis. No one who understands statistics takes a low average IQ to mean “all blacks are stupid”. However I agree with you that publicly addressing the IQ gap is probably impossible given America’s racial history. Trying to explain the subtleties of standard deviations and individual variances to the same electorate that wants both lavishly funded government programs and low taxes would be a waste of time.

    Speaking of social retards someone over at Sailer’s blog once posited that the IQ gap could be eliminated if black women had babies with men of other races. But race realists aren’t all like that.

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  252. My problem is, even if you DID do a big public discussion of black IQ, what would be the practical point of it? I think white men want it for the same reason I as a black man would want to broadcast a study on superior black cock size if such a study ever came to light…it’s mostly for ego I think.

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  253. hello saidFinally, I want to thank DA and Chic Noir for participating so civilly in this discussion
    your welcome. I’ve grown a very thick skin to people and what they are capable of saying. For me, it’s less about being PC and more about having good manners.

    Sailer never seems to get any black people to talk turkey over at his blog, though I’m sure the stormfront commentators and all the time he spends asking his ouija board questions about Obama’s childhood don’t help
    I comment there occasionally but under anon. Some of the people who hang around Sailor’s place, are flaming racists. Flaming racists are a waste of time since they have no desire to learn of or discuss different people. They want to project their hateful views into the world without question.


    I’d never have thought that a PUA blog could be the forum for such honest and non-judgemental racial debate, but I’m glad it did

    for some reason this blog does. I came here for the first time via a link from another blogger to Roissy’s post about his first time with a blk woman.

    although it will take generations before the fall-out from AIDS before such improvements will affect IQ
    I’m not denying the existence of AIDS in Africa but I will tell you that Africans are often diagnosed according to symptoms not diagnostic blood work. The number of Africans who are reported to have the disease is overinflated.

    I would add that the number of st8 whites who have the disease is underestimated. There is simply too much interracial sex going on here for the HIV/AIDS rate to be low in the white community. There are also a number of DL and bisexual men within the white American community.

    FYI, some whites in this country have a gene related that protects them from HIV. That gene is the same gene is that protected some Europeans from infection during the plague*. My handsome sweetheart Agnostic could pull the study(s) for you. There are also a group of Kenyan prostitutes who are immune/resistant to the HIV. Those women have been infected repeadly with the virus through their work yet don’t have the disease.

    I think the treating of AIDS as a black and gay male disease in this country is a big problem. It has led to many whites thinking that it won’t happen to them and therefore they take unnecessary risks with their health.

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  254. on November 1, 2008 at 12:15 am Tired of Smoke Rings

    “The one thing that separates today’s adult middle class men who are “fight virgins” from ones who aren’t is the fear of violence. ”

    No kidding. One interesting effect of this is men who ought to know better, posture and taunt as if they are hard men, when they are not. A guy tried this with my younger brother and was shocked when he nearly got beaten for cursing him and asking him to “Bring it on.” Only an immediate retraction of the challenge saved his sorry hide. To guys like that violence holds a fasination that evaporates under a rain of blows.

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  255. Someone once told me that AIDS foundations gave different size recommendations for condoms in African countries, European countries and Asian ones. According to him Africa needed the biggest condoms, Europe was in the middle and Asia was the smallest. However, you could always ask this chick.

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  256. 243 hello

    The sub-Saharan countries have lower IQs than the black American average, and there’s not enough racial admixture to account for it. I think that improvements in health, nutrition and education will raise IQs in sub-Saharan Africa as in the western world although it will take generations before the fall-out from AIDS before such improvements will affect IQ. Also, I think that the Big Man culture which promotes tribal affiliation over individual achievement stagnates growth, and that isn’t related to IQ.

    And from a racial realist standpoint I’ll say that many of the problems you mention regarding American blacks are a result of welfare and crack. Black communities were more stable during the fifties, and Steve Sailer himself believes that Roe vs. Wade and welfare set off the high rates of black illegitimacy that plague them today.

    No disagreement with any of these points. Blacks were actually starting to assimilate fairly well in the ’50s and early ’60s. Then the environment that allowed it was destroyed.

    The question is, what’s our best course of action now? Surely more cultural assertiveness is in order. But how do we get there? I guess we can formulate a strategy after we start seeing what kind of president Obama is.

    245 David Alexander

    As for testing, it’s the only means we have measuring the knowledge of children. I’m open to any other idea if you can suggest one.

    Parental choice is effective when parents care; let the schools that fail to engage kids fail, and legislate whatever transparency is necessary to prevent schools from too easily tricking parents.

    Yes, this doesn’t work with uninterested ghetto parents; I guess the only feasible short-term fixes there are less idiotic test construction and use, and empowering public school teachers to exclude troublemaker kids until they’re willing to exert some self-control. Yes, this Leaves Some Kids Behind. But they’re going to be left behind anyway; the best we can do for now is preventing them from taking everyone else down with them.

    In such a transitional phase, why would I want to marry and have kids if they’re just going to be excluded from the rest of society for being low IQ.

    As an Asian male, why would I want to marry and have kids if at least the male children I have would be heavily penalized in the mating market?

    I don’t know about you, but for me it’s enough to know that somewhere down the line any genetic component of that curse can be addressed. (Maybe I have a pathological amount of long-term orientation.)

    In addition, this all presumes that black people will line up to take the “smart pills” or whatever treatments are developed…

    If welfare doesn’t spiral out of control, this will probably happen. (That is a fairly big “if,” though.)

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  257. T comment #249- I agree. I also find it interesting that *some* whites who scream about affirmative action for blks/ Hispanics become silent when you reveal that the only reason whites still take seats at Harvard etc… is because of Affirmative Action and for the wealthy, buying a seat.

    Peter saidUnfortunately, the typical non-prole white man cannot even think of slamming his fist into another man’s face, no matter how dire the situation. Fighting back? That’s for other people – ghetto gangbangers, rednecks, drunken fratboys.

    What they are too clueless to realize is that sometimes you have to be willing to fight
    Absoutlouley
    Even Animus and PA noticed that they were no longer picked on when they stood up for themselves. Pacifist & non violence are good sometimes but if it comes to it, they need to stand up for themselves.

    As I’ve said countless times over the past seven years, I am absolutely convinced that if most middle- and upper-middle class white men weren’t “fight virgins” more than 3,000 lives would have been saved and America wouldn’t have descended into panty piddling paranoia. Michael Moore was
    Fight virgin and suburban living go hand in hand. Most blk men who come out of that type of environment have the same type of demeanor.
    I won’t deny that I like that you can have an argument with someone from the “middle- and upper-middle class white men & women” group without fear that it will result in a fist fight or getting shot. On the hand, sometimes you need a man to be a man and protect his turf and that’s when the problem develops with the “fight virgins”.
    Blk women who refuse to date white men*^ will often site they don’t “feel safe with them” or feel like a “white man could protect them”.

    Steve Sailor has it all wrong. It’s not skin color or muscularity (total BS) that turns blk women of from white men since plenty of dark skinned blk women date light-skinned blk men. In NYC, many blk women date light- skinned Puerto Ricans and Dominicans.

    To be honest I see a difference in muscularity between the two races. I believe I read that darker skin shows muscle definition more and it’s the reason why many bodybuilders tan their skin to a very dark color. I guess you knew that since you work out

    *^Italians and Russians are often excluded*

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  258. Seeking_Alpha
    By the way, not that anyone cares, but my old handle on these comments was ‘Michael’. The name is a double-entendre on what we’re all doing here, and on an industry rag of the same name.

    Please explain for a low IQ prole like myself.

    Like


  259. comment 238 PA
    Chic, what is that horrid thing you’re using as your avatar?

    That avatar is what I use for another site. I don’t understand why it’s posting here. I have a different avatar for this site.

    Like


  260. Chic,
    Steve’s original article says that blacks are considered slightly more and Asians slightly less masculine than whites, and he notes the difference in body fat percentages which is related to muscularity.

    Here’s a thread on black women in interracial relationships talking about the protection issue. Note: you may find the website offensive because it says some negative things about black people and black communities and VERY negative things about black men. But if you’ve commented on Sailer’s site I think you can take it.

    BTW, I think skin tone is not that big a deal either.

    http://www.blackfemaleinterracialmarriage.com/2008/09/lakeview-terrac.html#comments

    Like


  261. DA saidwhich is why travel is a must for a well-rounded person

    I only travel to countries and cities with trains. Anybody feel like subsidizing my trips?

    DA, due to the economy and Great Britain being in recession, the dollar has strengthened against both the pound(1.5-1 versus 2-1 in early summer) and the Euro.

    I think Rome &( maybe Senegal) is on the horizon for me 🙂

    Like


  262. Hello, I been to that site before but I will take a look at your link.

    Like


  263. Blk women who refuse to date white men*^ will often site they don’t “feel safe with them” or feel like a “white man could protect them”.

    Sometimes I feel like white men come in two different breeds: the wimpy nice guy, and the NFL Offensive Lineman type. Those are obviously extremes, and there is a continuum in between. However, living in a SWPL world, on ecan forget that there are some tough white guys out there.

    You’re more likely to find them among Rednecks, Ior Italians and Russians like Chic said.

    But it’s not difficult to carry yourself in a way that inspires a woman’s confidence in your ability to protect her. Evenif you’re not big.

    All you need to tell yourself, is this: I’m not afraid of getting punched in the face. And if shit really hits the fan and I get stomped to near-death — if it’s in a worthy cause, like protecting my kid, or my wife, or something I believe in, then let it rain.

    It’s not that hard.

    Like


  264. FYI, some whites in this country have a gene related that protects them from HIV.

    IIRC, whites have stronger immune systems than blacks do on average according to an oncologist that I met. Blacks tend to have lower white blood cell counts, and supposedly, dark skin prohibits absorption of vitamin D which essentially for a functioning immune system. Supposedly, this is also why men look for light skinned women…

    Blacks were actually starting to assimilate fairly well in the ’50s and early ’60s.

    Black communities in the 1950s and early 1960s in the North tended to be large clumps where the middle class and lower class blacks lived together. Once the Fair Housing Act was passed, real estate opportunities opened up which left the poorest blacks behind, and their community supports whither as the middle class support left for green pastures. In addition, the first wave of de-industrialization began to hit this group leaving them unemployed and isolated from suburban manufacturing employment opportunities. By the time the 1980s hit, crack began to take it’s toll on the community, and the drug trade and its lucrative opportunities destroyed what was left.

    empowering public school teachers to exclude troublemaker kids until they’re willing to exert some self-control

    As a former Catholic School student, I’ve never understood why suspensions and expulsions require so many hearings and meetings in public schools. Schools need to be able to essentially banish the unproductive, consistently misbehaving children to prevent them from ruining the learning environment.

    Interestingly, if we go to an all charter school system, how can we support neighbourhood schools? Most suburban areas can’t support multiple schools unless we move to large county-wide districts and this may require children to travel long distances to attend the school of their parent’s choice. Urban school districts deal with this problem by having kids commute via public transport in some cities, but that’s not ideal for young children or overprotective suburban mothers.

    Yes, this Leaves Some Kids Behind. But they’re going to be left behind anyway

    The problem is that some people feel that these kids can be saved, and that if we don’t save them, they’ll become criminals, hence the need to intervene as much as possible.

    As an Asian male, why would I want to marry and have kids if at least the male children I have would be heavily penalized in the mating market?

    It’s because your kids are more likely to succeed than my kids per genetics. Your kids have a low chance of failing, and a decent chance of becoming upper middle class. My kids may end up as screwed up welfare queens with kids in their teens or in prison. I’m much more justified in fearing for my children than you are.

    but for me it’s enough to know that somewhere down the line any genetic component of that curse can be addressed

    Maybe I’m a perfectionist, but I can’t support a transitional phase that destroys my peace of mind and turns me into an even greater paranoid emotional wreck that’s even more isolated from the rest of society. Plus, the problem with the solution is that it just plays into the hands of racists as it proves the natural inferiority of black people. In addition, who is honestly going to admit that their children are stupid and require smart pills to do better?

    I may be alone in this, but there’s something that’s pride destroying in having to send your kids to the doctor so they can get shots or whatever to boost their intellect. Hell, I could imagine the white kids making fun of black kids over this, and I suspect that may destroy interracial friendships and romance, as nobody will want to date somebody who’s naturally stupid.

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  265. the dollar has strengthened against both the pound

    I would kill to see Germany, the Netherlands, and Sweden right now, but I lack the cash and my employer doesn’t offer vacation days so I don’t even have the days off to do so. Hell, I would have driven up to Canada for my birthday next weekend, but I lack the days off, and the recession has spooked me into not spending at all.

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  266. Can’t you take unpaid time off?

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  267. 1. With some luck, an African country can fail to attract any negative attention from more powerful countries, and escape selfish strongman rule. But that’s really the best possible outcome right now. There’s no hope of Asian Tiger-style rapid technological advancement and assertion of an important role in the world economy. Little hope of finding a better source of wealth than supplying China with resources.
    I don’t know about you, but I don’t consider this state of being permanently acceptable for any group of humans

    DoJ
    I mentioned Toni Blair in relation to Zimbabwe because he promised to do everything in his power to break Mugabe via Zimbabwe. When leaders impose embargos on countries, who are they really hurting? Do you think the president or dictator’s family are hurting/suffering from lack of food or medicine? Hell no, it’s the common people who do without. In a way, embargos bring on more turbulence because the citizens look for anything or to anyone who promises to improve the conditions of that country. Thereby opening the door to rival dictators and a coup*
    (Cuba managed to hang on because the Soviet Union was able to offer help for so long.)
    Mugabe screwed up the country by kicking white farmers out of “their” farms. Keep in mind that the farms white owned were stolen from native blacks. At the end of apartheid in Zimbabwe, there should have been concessions made to native blacks in terms of farmland. I think we can agree that it was wholly unfair of whites to assume that they should keep all of the best farmland when the land was stolen in the first place.
    Do I think whites should of left in 1980 when Zimbabwe became the last African colony to gain its independence –no. Do I think there should have been talks in 1980 about the unfair land distribution between the white minority and blk majority-hell yea. BTW, Mugabe isn’t all bad. His push for literacy among blks made Zimbabwe the most literate country in Sub Saharan Africa. The high literacy rate is also, what makes it difficult for him to maintain control of the people. An educated populous is powerful and important. If you think it’s a mistake that most Americans know little about the rest of the world and how Wall St. really works, think again.
    The Congo’s problems are so immense that we can go on for days. First and foremost, the country has great mineral wealth and other natural resources. The natural resources and mineral wealth make it a target for stronger nations who need and want what the Congo has.

    1. Diamonds, emeralds etc..- There is one area of the country (the name escapes me) which is so jewel wealthy that fighting has been going on for control of that region since Patrice Lumumba was president. De Beers and the like have made a lot of money from Africans killing themselves and each other for a few pennies.

    2. Uranium- All of us here know what uranium is used for- nuclear power. Is it any wonder that the CIa agent Scooter Libby, Rove and the gang snitched on was “working” in the Congo??? Is it any wonder that China and countries like Iran and Iraq are all hanging out in the Congo? I once read something about how the Uranium in the Congo was especially valuable because it does not need to be treated as much as uranium from other parts of the world before it’s put to use*.

    3. The Congo has 80% of the world’s Coltan reserves. Coltan is an important mineral because it is used to make our cellphones. Cotan is used in the microchips of cell phone batteries to prolong duration of the charge. The region of Congo where the Colton is mined is also occupied by armies from neighboring countries. You see, every one wants a piece of the pie and since Congo is weak from so much in fighting, everyone is trying their luck.

    4. Don’t forget that African tribes/ethnic groups had their problems before European and Arab invaders came along. The arrival of the Europeans and Arabs with their religions’ & the Trans Saharan and Atlantic slave trade only exacerbated the issues Africans had amongst themselves.

    5. Congo was a personal colony of King Leopold of Belgium. He did not seek to “uplift” Africa like some colonizers claimed to do. In fact only a handful of Congolese people had college educations when the country gained its’ independence. Patrice Lumumba had only completed grade school or middle school if I’m not mistaken. FYI, the resemblance between Malcolm X and Patrice Lumumba is freakish and beyond words.

    I am exhausted beyond words. Good night guys.

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  268. Can’t you take unpaid time off?

    To get three days off to go to SFO several months ago required begging and pleading over several weeks, and too many absences means that you’re “unreliable” and thus worth firing. I already used one “planned” day for a railfan trip, and an “unplanned” day when I was sick this month.

    Besides, mom said no to driving to Canada alone “in the winter”, and quite frankly, I need the money to reduce credit card debt more than I need the adventure.

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  269. DA,
    I afraid to spend anything right now too. I’ve cut down costs in other areas thought. So if everything goes well for me in the upcoming months, I may travel in the Spring. FYI, March, April and early May is the low season for Europe. If you go then things are much cheaper and you can have fun with the locals versus your fellow cringos.

    Happy belated b-day incase I forget to tell you next week.

    PA said All you need to tell yourself, is this: I’m not afraid of getting punched in the face. And if shit really hits the fan and I get stomped to near-death — if it’s in a worthy cause, like protecting my kid, or my wife, or something I believe in, then let it rain
    Ah you’ve made me moist.
    J/k

    but I agree with you 100%.

    Sometimes I feel like white men come in two different breeds: the wimpy nice guy, and the NFL Offensive Lineman type

    The second types are usually working class/ blue color white men like your construction workers and plumbers etc. Forgive me for talking about feelings but men who do those types of jobs just seem to give off a different type of energy. It’s like a very tuff masculine sort of aura, I was struck by it yesterday when I walked past a large mixed group of construction workers. When I walk into a bar or club I can often pick up these sort of things just by looking at a guy.

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  270. David: your last comment was truly in character.
    Chic: sprawiasz wrażenie niezłej dziewczyny.

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  271. The “mom not lettingg you drive” part is what I meant. Being smart about work and money – you’re doing the right thng.

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  272. on November 1, 2008 at 3:41 am Dog of Justice

    260 PA

    All you need to tell yourself, is this: I’m not afraid of getting punched in the face. And if shit really hits the fan and I get stomped to near-death — if it’s in a worthy cause, like protecting my kid, or my wife, or something I believe in, then let it rain.

    This is not something I have a problem with. If there’s one good thing my childhood Christian indoctrination bequeathed me, it’s a total lack of fear of death when standing for what I believe in.

    Of course, an Asian girl pegged me as “too aggressive” not too long ago because of this, since she couldn’t take advantage of me without fear of retaliation…

    261 David Alexander

    Once the Fair Housing Act was passed, real estate opportunities opened up which left the poorest blacks behind, and their community supports whither as the middle class support left for green pastures. In addition, the first wave of de-industrialization began to hit this group leaving them unemployed and isolated from suburban manufacturing employment opportunities.

    That’s a good point. (It also leads in to a question about the ethics of America brain-draining the Third World.)

    The problem is that some people feel that these kids can be saved, and that if we don’t save them, they’ll become criminals, hence the need to intervene as much as possible.

    And the current system doesn’t drive many of them to be criminals anyway? 😦

    I’m not opposed to some form of intervention in their lives, but we clearly agree that no matter what, they cannot be allowed to freely disrupt others’ learning environment.

    My kids may end up as screwed up welfare queens with kids in their teens or in prison. I’m much more justified in fearing for my children than you are.

    Okay, I sympathize with this. But isn’t that an argument for developing the technology that frees your nieces and nephews from that fear?

    Plus, the problem with the solution is that it just plays into the hands of racists as it proves the natural inferiority of black people.

    To the degree that economic and technological inferiority exists, it’s already proven by the trajectories of other developing countries relative to those in Africa. Mendelian inheritance was established long before DNA was discovered. Finding relevant genes is part of the solution, not part of the problem (though I’m not entirely opposed to obfuscation of the status quo, for the morale reasons you mention).

    The question is whether the relevant actors see this as justification for taking advantage of Africans, or if they are more compassionate. I’m hopeful because I have already seen the West be compassionate once — East Asia could have been left to be despotic and backward. Instead my people were given the tools to become a world leader.

    I may be alone in this, but there’s something that’s pride destroying in having to send your kids to the doctor so they can get shots or whatever to boost their intellect. Hell, I could imagine the white kids making fun of black kids over this, and I suspect that may destroy interracial friendships and romance, as nobody will want to date somebody who’s naturally stupid.

    I know where you’re coming from, but at some point it’s like saying nobody will want to date somebody who’s naturally nearsighted and needs that artificially “fixed.” In the past, nearsightedness really was a problem. But once technology has neutralized an inequality for good, people care about the residual genetic difference less and less.

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  273. I mentioned Toni Blair in relation to Zimbabwe because he promised to do everything in his power to break Mugabe via Zimbabwe.

    Basically, the choice was between invading the place and engaging in regime change which nobody wanted to do, or punishing Zimbabwe with a slow death by embargoes. The third choice of making deals wouldn’t work because Mugabe will never give up power, and the fourth choice of getting other Africans to liberate Zimbabwe was never going to happen, and may set a dangerous precedent in that region of the world.

    The “mom not lettingg you drive” part is what I meant.

    Mom would let me ride a fly, ride a bus, or take Amtrak, but she’s pretty much closed off “winter” for a road trip up North. It doesn’t help that an early November trip to Canada involved driving along an ice and snow covered I-81.

    Admittedly, I am a mommy’s boy as Tupac Chopra pointed out, but surprisingly, I am not a “yes man” to her, and I will routinely say that something she likes is ugly or her idea is stupid.
    Being smart about work and money – you’re doing the right thng.

    Roztropność jest dobrą żoną.

    I’d like to first build up the equivalent of six paychecks in case my employer becomes desperate and fires me before I go out and begin funding overseas adventures. And to counteract the idiotic decision to pay for last semester with my credit card, I must continue to pay off my credit card debt ($975 left) before I go buy fun stuff like an iPod Touch unless I pay cash for it…

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  274. I meant the cube sucks for *attraction* and *demonstrating value*, unless you’re gaming nerd girls.

    Anyone care to comment on gaming nerd girls? Roissy is too contemptuous (perhaps rightly so) to do so, but if anyone else has tried…

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  275. sfg:
    Anyone care to comment on gaming nerd girls? Roissy is too contemptuous (perhaps rightly so) to do so, but if anyone else has tried…

    eh. contemptuous? why would one be contemptuous of nerd girls?
    ime, they tend on average to be a lot less deserving of contempt than most of their peers. and if you like asian girls, there are some delicious ones. (hot non-asian nerd chix are, unfortunately, very, very rare.)

    the core principles aren’t all that different.
    the biggest difference is that you don’t neg quite as much. instead, you should replace about 30-50% of the negs, and most of the evasive answers to “interview style hoops”, with casual, offhand references to nerdy things that the average dude wouldn’t know.
    the strangest things can work to generate rapport/positive vibes. for instance, with normal girls i usually answer “how old are you” with something like 15 (i have a good fake id) or 95 (i stay out of the sun). with one cute nerd chick i was working a few weeks ago, though, she was pretty smitten when i answered in hex.
    be careful, though. too much of this, without enough kino, will land you in the friend zone. (although nerd girls have more utility as friends than do party girls, at least outside the realm of being wingwomen)

    the other upside of nerd girls, at least in my experience, is that their relatively still sexual waters run very, very deep.
    not as many guys know how to flip their nerd switches. so when a guy comes around who does – and who can also flip the attraction switches – they wil very, very often turn into maniacal slutty whore succubi.
    i like.

    are you the same sfg who has described yourself as a relatively hopeless beta?

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  276. — Admittedly, I am a mommy’s boy as Tupac Chopra pointed out, but surprisingly, I am not a “yes man” to her, and I will routinely say that something she likes is ugly or her idea is stupid.

    Tupac’s observation struck me as dead-on. Anyway, you sound like a good kid.

    — Roztropność jest dobrą żoną.

    That was pretty cool! You even got the adjective and noun declensions correct.

    I’d like to first build up the equivalent of six paychecks in case my employer becomes desperate and fires me before I go out and begin funding overseas adventures.

    A friend of mine was freaking our about the economy going down in his industry (mortgages, heh). I told him not to worry, as long as he has two things: no debt, and a backup plan. It’s good to have at least two months’ savings, and it sounds like you’re getting there.

    But then again, don’t be too conservative. All work and no fun… also, it’ll not be as easy to find time to travel once you et out of your 20s. So you may as well do it now. Plus, you won’t be as tolerant of sleeping at camp sites or in the car, to keep things on a budget.

    One difference big I noticed between my mid-20s and mid-30s as far as travel is that I can’t stay up at night like I used to. I once drove from Maryland to New Mexico via Kansas, back roads and all…. no motel money to spare, so I drove three days with no sleep except for a couple of cat-naps at rest areas. No friggin’ way I could do that now, and I’m in better shape now that I was then.

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  277. Yeah, that was me.

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  278. The economic crisis has been “fun” for even the minimal traveler. On my last Tallinn trip, the mid-week ship was surprisingly absolutely packed with thousands of people, after another line declared bankruptcy with no warning, just a “sorry, your trips are canceled” note up one day. In a city that lives off tourism the mood was *very* different. The last time I saw the locals that desperate for my money was right when the USSR went down. Some people I was traveling with got mugged and robbed (never happened there before) and the police station was full of Finnish and British tourists who had had their stuff stolen or (much) worse.

    Folks, take extra care in poor tourist traps right now.

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  279. And everyone’s right on the upper middle class folks. I was always a misfit in my tiny hometown and I assumed it was an IQ thing, that I’d fit in better once I moved to the city and found more smart people to hang out with. Then at the university I met all these guys who’ve never even been in a fight and after years of thinking that I was a nerd I suddenly found myself a misfit for being too “rough”. Ngghhhh.

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  280. Once you get past the disgust and amusement offered by this show, you realize how well it demonstrates the basics of the human mating conflict.

    I challenge everyone on here who shakes their head in disbelief of the evolutionary psychology perspective offered by roissy, Tupac and others to explain the ridiculous seeming emotional outbursts of these men.

    There is the endless ecstasy of those who can walk off from a slut they banged who tried to blackmail and pin them down using the life of a small and helpless human being as their tool. And then there is the suicidal glitter in the eyes of the guys who learn that their best friend fucked their wifes pretty much throughout all of their marriage.

    The difference to other trailer trash shows is that this is not just about cheating. This is about actual paternity fraud. These men do not just get humiliated by being publicly exposed as cuckolds – they are being told that they failed in doing what every male in their family had managed to do since thousand of years – to pass on their genes to the next generation. They failed miserably on a colossal scale – natural history. They are a dead brunch on the tree of life.

    Now realize that between 1 out of 4 or 5 men are paying $200.000 (estimated cost of raising a child in the US these days) for another dude’s broad. In other words, it’s freakin’ normal. So normal that the government simply has no interest in having every child DNA-tested for paternity. The consequences of the truth coming out would be too disastrous for our society. You better don’t fuck with human nature – just keep up the veil of lies and be thankful for all the betas out there who pay the bill.

    Watch the women in the show.

    They go out of their way describing how the facial features of their little bastards “match” the accused dad. They try hard to sell their bastards (it’s a lot of money we’re talking about after all). They get aggressive to the point they need to be restrained. All of this despite the fact that they know there were other guys flooding their pussy, too!

    Women love emotions and emotional displays. No wonder this show is so successful. But most women do not sympathize with cuckolded men. A very female notion is that the true father is the one who “raises” the child and not the sperm donor. As a result they feel more for the guy’s public humiliation or lost of trust than about the fact that he was about to call another man’s baby his own.

    That’s precisely why things need to get spiced up. It’s not about the men. But by letting the women in the show become a victim of public moral outrage (slut!), letting their world fall apart (still no “daddy” to help you pay the bills!) or let them get back together with the guy (“I still love you”, “you ARE the dad despite her cheating!”), women can experience everything a wide range of feelings that every woman is aware and afraid of – without being harmed.

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  281. on November 1, 2008 at 3:07 pm ironrailsironweights

    With regard to the decline of fighting, and of physicality in general, among men today, I offer this passage from A Fighter’s Heart by Sam Sheridan:

    Kids used to fight more: violence wasn’t so frowned upon and didn’t escalate as it does today with the prevalence of firearms. The penalties are severe today – getting into a few bar fights can lead to weeks or months in jail, heavy fines, and tremendous hassle. The cops will invariably arrive. Everybody in the early part of the century, through the Depression, would be in fistfights, especially as young kids. You would know who was the toughest kid on your block, and how you compared to him, and then you would know how he compared to the toughest fighter in the neighborhood, the city, the state, and you would see how the toughest fighter in the state got his clock cleaned by Sugar Ray Robinson or Jack Dempsey, and you would have a direct relation to and understanding of that controlled violence.

    Well said.

    Peter

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  282. Then at the university I met all these guys who’ve never even been in a fight and after years of thinking that I was a nerd I suddenly found myself a misfit for being too “rough”. Ngghhhh.
    ROTFL. Yeah, sometimes you can’t win. I know exactly what you mean, albeit in another context…

    Thanks for the hints, johnny 5; may have been my lack of kino tripping me up. I was always afraid of getting sued for sexual harassment, but I guess in a nonwork context they can’t do much…

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  283. Oh, and mercifully I have no opposition to chinese food. Let’s face it, their culture’s more congenial to our (my?) kind.

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  284. Excellent experiment, Roissy. You took a few days off and look at how the readers kept flocking to the same topic to get their fix.

    Cheers!

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  285. We interrupt this endless comment thread with an optimistic message to the younger members of the female sex: Your looks won’t fade as drastically as you might fear they will. See here for instance, an example of a perfectly normally aged 34 year old woman.

    http://thesuperficial.com/2008/10/kate_moss_looks_like_crap.php

    You too can age this well, as long as you start out as a super-model who makes millions of dollars every year based on your looks.

    If not, then I’m sure your results won’t be too much below this.

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  286. I’m guessing I could do all right with nerd girls, but Asian girls just don’t do it for me. I like white girls first and Hispanic girls second.

    I also simply don’t run into a lot of nerd girls in the first place. The time to get them would have been at MIT…

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  287. @282
    I never understood the “look” of Kate Moss. At her prime, she appeared very generic, bland to me. Her look could be found in a dozen girls in any American high school.

    Under the cover of anonymity, I can admit a degree of elitism to see images of former Hollywood hotties of my age. I am waaaay more fit and attractive than Kathleen Turner, Beverly Johnson, and more. It is difficult to understand how women who made their living looking good, can become matronly. Meanwhile I earn a living purely on my brains, grunt work, and hustle, and look just fine. My inspiration comes from public women like Cindy Crawford, Joan Alllen, Karen Allen, Madonna. Even more inspiration from local private women who look great. It helps to be inspired.

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  288. Wow, 284 is definitely a woman talking. WHAT THE HELL DOES ANY OF IT MEAN?!?!?

    (ha haa! the perfect time to disappear into the night *puff* I don’t hear you anymore)

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  289. While I totally agree with Rain And’s overall point about how delusional women are about their looks and how long they’re going to last, I’m not sure if Kate Moss is the best example based on her life of drinking, drugging, smoking and partying. No matter how hot you are when you start off in life, starting that shit heavy from a young age will age you horribly.

    Anony’s last comment though made ZERO sense.

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  290. SFG
    Oh, and mercifully I have no opposition to chinese food. Let’s face it, their culture’s more congenial to our (my?) kind.

    YOu got it right the second time. Johnny 5 is Asian my friend.

    anony- Cindy Crawford is tampering with her face too much in my opinion. she is not aging well. Stephanie Seymour on the other hand, looks as if she hasn’t aged in the last ten years. Seymour kicked out 4 babies and can still wear a bikini.

    I agree T, Kate’s hard living has done her in. Compare Kate Moss to Stepanie Seymour,Christy Turlington or Naomi Campbell to see what hard living can do to someone.

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  291. PA, hon, you gotta stop imagining things into my comments that I never put in them.

    I didn’t say that the English should be punished forevermore for their racial/colonial sins (including comments like “wogs begin at Calais”) by allowing themselves to be flooded with foreign immigrants. FWIW, I support highly controlled immigration, not open borders.

    My comment about wogs was a tease, a reminder to some of the posters here that in the old days you didn’t have to be black or Asian or some other different colour in order to incur a little contempt from the English. Being a continental European was enough to earn you the “wog” label.

    Nuances and context, sir, you must learn to read for nuances and context.

    Clio

    Like


  292. PA, hon, you gotta stop imagining things into my comments that I never put in them.

    I didn’t say that the English should be punished forevermore for their racial/colonial sins (including comments like “wogs begin at Calais”) by allowing themselves to be flooded with foreign immigrants. FWIW, I support highly controlled immigration, not open borders.

    My comment about wogs was a tease, a reminder to some of the posters here that in the old days you didn’t have to be black or Asian or some other different colour in order to incur a little contempt from the English. Being a continental European was enough to earn you the “wog” label.

    Nuances and context, sir, you must learn to read for nuances and context.

    And I’m not, heaven help me, a Marxist, or anything resembling one.

    Clio

    Like


  293. PA, don’t make me have to defend Clio’s honor…

    Like


  294. 260 PA:

    All you need to tell yourself, is this: I’m not afraid of getting punched in the face. And if shit really hits the fan and I get stomped to near-death — if it’s in a worthy cause, like protecting my kid, or my wife, or something I believe in, then let it rain.

    The problem is that it’s not so black and white in actual practice. Rarely does one have to protect one’s life from a mugger, or protect one’s wife from a rapist.

    Instead what you have are borderline-violent situations where you have to *possibly* incur violence while defending your *ego*: a person cuts in front of you in line, or swipes a parking space you were waiting on, or catcalls your date. None of those situations are violent per se, but if you step up and the other guy thinks he can take you, these situations sometimes have the possiblity of *leading* to violence. So the question is: is it worth it to you?

    “Civilized” people advise taking the “higher road” and to let it go since getting into a fight is not worth it, particularly if you are on your way to a pleasant evening function with your date. The problem is, you end up looking like a bitch in most girls’ eyes for not “being a man” if you back down from a verbal confrontation.

    It is taboo in society to talk about the well-known connection between female lust and male violence. Women deny it all the time saying how they “hate it” when guys act like “egomaniacs” and “jerks”. But the fact is they *love* seeing *their* man give another man a beatdown, their P.R. protestations to the contrary notwithstanding.

    In this way, we see yet again how female mate selection acts as a drag on humanity’s emotional and spiritual evolution.

    Like


  295. Clio:

    Nuances and context, sir, you must learn to read for nuances and context.

    PA, I think what Clio is trying to say is that you’re a big dumb Polack.

    Like


  296. I’ve never gotten in a real fight. Like Tupac said, if it’s just my ego on the line… why? The benefit doesn’t justify the risk.

    One fear I haven’t been able to get out of my head when approaching women is the fear that the Alpha Boyfriend will step in and kick my ass for hitting on his girl.

    Like


  297. on November 1, 2008 at 11:34 pm ironrailsironweights

    Kate’s hard living has done her in. Compare Kate Moss to Stepanie Seymour,Christy Turlington or Naomi Campbell to see what hard living can do to someone.

    For an extreme example of how different people age at different rates, do a Google search for current photos of Brigitte Bardot and Sophia Loren. Born within two weeks of each other 74 years ago, both regarded as stunning beauties in their younger days, they most certainly haven’t aged at the same rate.

    Peter

    Like


  298. Oh Peter, Brigitte Bardot has aged horribly. That poor woman looks terrible. Her shell now matches her interior and that of her husband Le Pen(tp).

    Like


  299. Sara, most women, even the fairest skinned of white women, do not look like Kate Moss at 34. Kate hard partying has caught up with her that’s all.

    Like


  300. on November 2, 2008 at 12:36 am ironrailsironweights

    Hey, here’s a bit of shocking news, as reported on Yahoo. Women may prefer Beta providers to ultra-Alphas:

    Job security and marriage to an accountant beat adventure and an exciting Bond-style boyfriend for most British women, a new survey said.
    PARSHIP, Europe’s largest matchmaking service for singles wanting a committed relationship released results of the poll on the same week as the latest Bond film “Quantum of Solace” had its royal premiere in London.
    But results showed that although British women may fantasize about a glamorous James Bond-style romance, in reality they prefer job security,
    an accountant boyfriend and marriage over a high-octane adventure.

    Roissy? Any comment?

    Peter

    Like


  301. Peter: So we should trust a self-interested corporate poll over what we all have observed and know to be the truth?

    Like


  302. Johnny 5 is Asian my friend.

    only partly so.
    i’m a mutt. i’m regularly mistaken for hispanic, among other things.

    Like


  303. zorgon
    Peter: So we should trust a self-interested corporate poll over what we all have observed and know to be the truth?

    Zorgon are you crazy??? Don’t you know that studies are more important than emotions and feelings at this site? Agnostic sic Zorgon.

    Like


  304. Kate Moss was never a beauty, in my estimation, but she doesn’t always look as bad as she does in that photo. That’s a deliberately (I think) awful shot, with harsh photographers’ lights. I’ve seen many recent candid photos in which she looks good – even young. But it’s true that she hasn’t taken care of her looks.

    Brigitte Bardot spent all her spare time baking in the sun. Sophia Loren, a Neapolitan, probably thought she was dark enough already and didn’t bother with too much tanning. That’s the main difference between the two. BB’s present face is the result of sun damage, no more no less. (Take that as a warning, you tanning-salon girls!)

    Tanning went out of fashion in the later 80s and stayed that way through much of the 90s. I was horrified when it came back into style. When I was a teenager girls rubbed themselves with iodine and baby oil mixtures, and wrapped record albums in tin-foil and shone them on their faces to tan faster – but I got sick in the sun so I didn’t. And now I look decades younger than my contemporaries.

    Clio

    Like


  305. on November 2, 2008 at 3:44 am Comment_South_Is_Warm

    *****
    On the other hand, people from northern regions often look to more easygoing, sumptuous places (Italy, Tahiti, Bali, Africa) for lessons in “how to enjoy life,” “how to exist in the here and now,” “good eating,” “good sex,” “fabulous patterns and colors,” “enjoying the body,” etc.
    *****
    It’s called low self-awareness.

    SAD is Season Effective Disorder. Most commonly it is caused by lower sunlight exposure during the winter. It can be treated, usually very effectively, by increasing the persons exposure to sunlight, including the use of ‘light boxes’ and ‘light visors’.

    So what happens to a normal persons energy level, sex-drive, ect. when exposed to a massive sudden increase in sunlight? They feel good. They feel sensual. blah. blah. Any vacation closer to the equator will do this.

    My very low energy levels reached normal human levels during my 3-month vacation in South America. It took even my sorry *bleep* a year to notice this. However, it is true.

    Key things to also realize when there:
    1.You are shedding water faster to. If you are trying to avoid drinking the local water, drinking caffeine products WILL NOT HELP REPLACE WATER.
    http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/id/QAA57092
    ****
    “The short answer to your question is “no.” Thanks to their caffeine content, both tea and coffee are diuretics – that is, they cause the body to lose water.”
    ****
    2.I took no vaccine, was moderately careful, and experienced no health problems. This is not to say that vaccines are not sometimes justified, but vaccines themselves are dangerous. So just don’t ‘shoot-up’ everything under the opinion ‘it won’t hurt’. It most definetely can hurt.
    3.If you have any sort of hearing problem, then getting a hearing aid of some sort before attempting to learn a foreign language is a good way to stop yourself from wasting quite a bit of time. I’m under-40, but stupidity has led to a small impairment… that makes learning a foreign language significantly harder.

    Like


  306. Daily wear sunscreen should be tax-deductible

    Like


  307. Clio, I re-read your “Wogs” comment and I don’t think that my original reading — that you were making a politically correct point — was unreasonable. I’m sorry that my response to you was brusque, however.

    The “Marxist” point I made is unfortunatley salient with many Christians today, particularly within the Catholic Church and mainline Protestand churches. For waht it’s worth, my view on immigration is that Western countries need a carrot-stick approach toward achieving a net out-migration of incompatable non-Westerners who had settled in these countries over the past 50 years or so.

    And in a perfect world, we’d have Nuremberg-style trials and punishments of people who are responsible for flooding Europe with non-Europeans.

    Like


  308. Come on, PA, some of those immigrant women and their daughters are cute!

    I kid

    Like


  309. i love povich! check out this good looking beta male proving just as much when he finds out the results:

    Like


  310. check out the ending of this at about 5 minutes 50 seconds to see how women really feel about settling down with an alpha male they profess to hate.

    Like


  311. PA, Marx would’ve actually mostly agreed on the “wogs”. He was a big believer in Germanic superiority (as were the British, really: the Germans weren’t inferior, they were scary!) and one of the major advocates of race war – the one where the “mongoloidized” Slavs would be driven out of Europe in favour of the Germanic races.

    That it was Marxist Slavs who actually won the great race war is one of the delicious ironies of history…

    Like


  312. achieving a net out-migration of incompatable non-Westerners

    Is non-Westerner a proxy for Muslims of African, Indian, and Arabic origins or does this include Hispanics, Eastern Asians of various religions, and Caribbeans? In a sizable number of cases, some of the immigrants have been in their respective guest nations for nearly many years with a nearly two generations born in the country.

    In other words, David Alexander isn’t moving back to Haiti, and I suspect those French-born kids of Algerian orgins aren’t going back either.

    Like


  313. 313 David Alexander

    Is non-Westerner a proxy for Muslims of African, Indian, and Arabic origins or does this include Hispanics, Eastern Asians of various religions, and Caribbeans? In a sizable number of cases, some of the immigrants have been in their respective guest nations for nearly many years with a nearly two generations born in the country.

    In other words, David Alexander isn’t moving back to Haiti, and I suspect those French-born kids of Algerian orgins aren’t going back either.

    Yes. This is a very old idea — Abraham Lincoln tried to implement it — and it didn’t work because most blacks preferred to stay in the US.

    Like


  314. So the question is: is it worth it to you?

    If the risk involves a trip to the hospital, jail, or to a crematorium, then it’s not worth it. Hell, I used to flash my lights at the people who used to drive like slow fucks or cut me off, and I stopped once stories of road rage shootings appeared on the news…

    Women deny it all the time saying how they “hate it” when guys act like “egomaniacs” and “jerks”

    I suspect the difference is between being the man who starts fights versus being the man who defends his honour in a fight. The latter is the sign of a good provider who will ensure lots of resources for his mate while the former implies a good chance of being raped or the loss of resources when he gets his ass kicked.

    Tupac’s observation struck me as dead-on. Anyway, you sound like a good kid.

    Yeah, he was spot on about it, hence my remarks about him being able to see thru the real intentions of men. It’s simply the consequence of a lot of factors that I won’t get into on the Internet.

    That was pretty cool! You even got the adjective and noun declensions correct.

    Google translate is getting better. 🙂

    One difference big I noticed between my mid-20s and mid-30s as far as travel is that I can’t stay up at night like I used to.

    I may be hitting this transition point now. I was surprised that I couldn’t stay up all night to drive around the Bay Area a few months ago, and even the quick 15-20 minute naps weren’t working as expected. Admittedly, that trip did bring back a little bit of the feeling of “invincibility” back that I had lost over the past few years.

    As for sleeping in the car, while it’s relatively easy to do in a guarded parking lot at community college, I would never feel safe enough to do so at night, especially in rural areas and lightly used sections of interstates. I’d rather take my chances at the EconoLodge…

    Like


  315. David, what are you afraid of in *rural* areas? White people?

    My no-budget hippie trips have often taken me around just hitchhiking and sleeping off in whatever forested patch I happen to come across… the odds of someone even finding me are less than running into a bear.

    Like


  316. clio said:When I was a teenager girls rubbed themselves with iodine and baby oil mixtures, and wrapped record albums in tin-foil and shone them on their faces to tan faster – but I got sick in the sun so I didn’t.

    The things women do to impress men. I can add sodium hydroxide & formaldehyde to the list.

    PA saidI’m sorry that my response to you was brusque, however

    That^^^ is the mark of a true man. You can apologize with ease if you are wrong. To bad there aren’t more people of either sex who can do that.

    jaakkeli
    David, what are you afraid of in *rural* areas? White people?

    In this country, hell yes.

    Like


  317. Women deny it all the time saying how they “hate it” when guys act like “egomaniacs” and “jerks”

    Women hate it when ugly guys are jerks. End of story

    Like


  318. freakshow,
    Wow, that second clip was killer. Cheated on him with two guys and he takes her and her baby back? OTOH it’s a very decent thing to do for the kid.

    Like


  319. Hello said:Women hate it when ugly guys are jerks. End of story
    I genially do hate it when men are jerks but with ugly men, jerk like behavior it is simply unacceptable.

    Like


  320. jaakkeli
    David, what are you afraid of in *rural* areas? White people?

    In this country, hell yes.

    those rural ohioans sure are a dangerous bunch.

    I genially do hate it when men are jerks but with ugly men, jerk like behavior it is simply unacceptable.

    so you agree that it is simply unacceptable for fat women to act bitchy.

    Like


  321. Chris said Yes. This is a very old idea — Abraham Lincoln tried to implement it — and it didn’t work because most blacks preferred to stay in the US

    Blks who moved to Liberia and that small island near Hati faced a high mortality rate.

    jaakkeli
    David, what are you afraid of in *rural* areas? White people?

    In this country, hell yes.

    those rural ohioans sure are a dangerous bunch
    Yes they are. I am as afraid of them as you are of those blk guys who hang out/live in that neighborhood where your liberal blogger friend was shot.

    so you agree that it is simply unacceptable for fat women to act bitchy
    Hell yes, I think I’ve mentioned before that unattractive and people with other handicaps people can’t afford to be mean(not that anybody can) . There disabilities are a deterrent when it comes to social interaction.

    Like


  322. Yes they are.

    you would be wrong.
    see: FBI crime statistics.

    I am as afraid of them as you are of those blk guys who hang out/live in that neighborhood where your liberal blogger friend was shot.

    1. he wasn’t my friend
    2. your fear, if you really are afraid of rural white areas and not just lying to score phantom points (which i am sure you are), is not based in reality.
    3. your willful ignorance will not save you here.

    Hell yes, I think I’ve mentioned before that unattractive and people with other handicaps people can’t afford to be mean(not that anybody can) . There disabilities are a deterrent when it comes to social interaction.

    so you believe a different moral standard should apply to people who were born with ugly faces?

    Like


  323. I suspect those French-born kids of Algerian orgins aren’t going back either.

    It’s too bad that Algerian-born French people got driven out of north Africa, though. Or Vietnam. Or English people from Rhodesia.

    Like


  324. David, as much as I like him, sees white people not as human beings, but as a backdrop for non-whites to prosper among. As petri-dish agar, for foreign cultures to grow on. According to him, whites don’t deserve to have their own habitat, so to speak. They have no human rights and no civil rights.

    Like


  325. David, as much as I like him, sees white people not as human beings, but as a backdrop for non-whites to prosper among. As petri-dish agar, for foreign cultures to grow on. According to him, whites don’t deserve to have their own habitat, so to speak. They have no human rights and no civil rights.

    No offense PA, because I like you too, but how is that much different than how you view nonwhites? You just see them as an minor annoyance that whites must tolerate at best or invading force looking to bring about the end of White Western life. Anything that falls short of being a scathing indictment of nonwhites like Clio’s accurate objective comments describing antebellum South is attacked as being a Christification of blacks or too-PC. If something is remotely complimentary of them, it seems to offend you and needs to be disproved, like the discussion of biracial women. I really don’t understand how you can make that critcism of DA’s views on whites when from your comments you don’t seem that different, just with the races reversed.

    Like


  326. Sorry, last comment was me.

    Like


  327. Yes they are.

    you would be wrong.
    see: FBI crime statistics.

    I could care less what the FBI crime facts are if as I am driving thought a small town I am warned that it is sun down town or repeatedly told that, “not many people who look like you come through these parts”*. I don’t wait for bad things to happen because I get or stay the hell out of dodge.

    *said in a creepy way

    your fear, if you really are afraid of rural white areas and not just lying to score phantom points (which i am sure you are), is not based in reality
    Um no, and I am not the only blk person who is afraid of rural white areas even poor white urban areas in this country can be dangerous for me.

    so you believe a different moral standard should apply to people who were born with ugly faces?
    Don’t be an ass Roissy. You know exactly what I mean. Zogan said pretty much the same thing on the feminist utopia post.

    PA-France invited the grandparents of those third generation Algerians to help rebuild the country after the WWII.

    It’s too bad that Algerian-born French people got driven out of north Africa, though. Or Vietnam. Or English people from Rhodesia.

    Agreed and it’s too bad Native Americans can’t have America. You are forgetting that by your own omission, you are a foreigner living in America. Have some empathy.

    Like


  328. Um T, where/when did the discussion of biracial women go down?

    You just see them as an minor annoyance that whites must tolerate at best or invading force looking to bring about the end of White Western life.
    You hit it on the nose T.
    The words Camille Cosby used to describe the guy who killed her son could easily be used to describe PA instead

    Like


  329. I normally don’t reply to people who are too lazy to use a handle, but I suspect that Anonymus is a frequent commenter who forgot to write in his normal handle, so here is my response:

    Every people on this planet are entitled by the most basic of human rights to have their own country. If me and ten million of my Slavic cousins moved to Korea, even on our best behavior, we’d be committing a crime against humanity, on the level of genocide, against the people of Korea. We’d be befouling the Korean people’s habitat. What greater crime can there be?

    By the way, I don;’t have a problem with non-whites. In fact, I like them. I have lived on every continent on this planet except Australia, and I recognize the richness of al the world’s cultures.

    What I reject is the elites in Western countries who are pursuing a policy of population replacement by flooding countires like Finland with millions of Somalis and Ghanians. This is pure evil. As is any kind of genocide.

    Like


  330. PA the comment was from T.

    Like


  331. Every people on this planet are entitled by the most basic of human rights to have their own country. If me and ten million of my Slavic cousins moved to Korea, even on our best behavior, we’d be committing a crime against humanity
    So you and your Slavic brothers have commited a crime against America?

    on the level of genocide, against the people of Korea. We’d be befouling the Korean people’s habitat. What greater crime can there be?
    I agree, look at what happend to the Native Americans.

    Like


  332. Thanks Chic, I just saw that too. I suspected it was a “regular,” but wasn’t sure who.

    By the way, thanks for finally putting up something cute as your avatar 🙂

    Like


  333. The American cleansing of the Indians was a horrific thing, but it was a done deal before any of us were born.

    Like


  334. The words Camille Cosby used to describe the guy who killed her son could easily be used to describe PA instead

    I just saw that. Wow, at least I’ve never called any of my online interlocutors murderers.

    Like


  335. I can add sodium hydroxide & formaldehyde to the list.
    I think if you heat those things up together, you can get wood alcohol and fire ant acid…

    Sometimes you just get fire ant acid and hydrogen though. See, I told you I was a beta…

    you got a website, johnny 5?

    Like


  336. I could care less what the FBI crime facts are

    so you are admitting your willful ignorance.
    glad we could clear that up.

    if as I am driving thought a small town I am warned that it is sun down town or repeatedly told that, “not many people who look like you come through these parts”*.

    anecdote is not data.

    Um no, and I am not the only blk person who is afraid of rural white areas even poor white urban areas in this country can be dangerous for me.

    except that they’re not.
    see: FBI crime statistics. oh wait… you’re not interested in the truth.

    Don’t be an ass Roissy. You know exactly what I mean.

    oh, i know *exactly* what you mean and that is why my leetle probing questions regarding your slippery moral code are making you uncomfortable and agitated. i asked you this:

    “so you believe a different moral standard should apply to people who were born with ugly faces?”

    here is what you wrote in reply (in your usual pidgen english):

    “I genially do hate it when men are jerks but with ugly men, jerk like behavior it is simply unacceptable.”

    you are making a moral judgment that a man who was born with an ugly face who acts like a jerk is more unacceptable than a good-looking man acting like a jerk. you are applying two different moral standards to jerk-like behavior based on the looks of the man.
    so, chiclet, tell me… why is it less OK for an ugly man to act like a jerk than a good-looking man?

    Like


  337. PA, the other pic was from the avatar site and the pic you see now is from wordpress. For some reason the two switch back and forth.

    I just saw that. Wow, at least I’ve never called any of my online interlocutors murderers

    HUH?

    I’m not saying you are a murder. What I am saying is, you seem to have a dislike for black people via some of your comments as T pointed out. It’s hard to believe that you would feel this way since you are an immigrant who came to this country, and had to face a set of battles because of your ethnic heritage. It’s the reason I was write empathy when I post a comment to you..

    SFG- Most men and women are beta so it’s not the end of the world.

    Like


  338. Why is it less OK for a one to act like a bitch than a ten?

    oh, i know *exactly* what you mean and that is why my leetle probing questions regarding your slippery moral code are making you uncomfortable and agitated

    Actually you become agitated whenever I make a comment about ugly men.

    here is what you wrote in reply (in your usual pidgen english)
    thanks

    Like


  339. Chic, sounded like you were likening me to Bill Cosby’s son’s killer. No biggie, bygones.

    I don’t in fact dislike black people. The black people I know in real life I’m been pretty cool with. You’ve been here since Jamestown and you’re an integral part of what America is. (Btw, there were several Poles at Jamestown too, employed as glassmakers) .

    The things I do dislike, to put it mildly, include Leftism, political correctness, and the West’s evil policies of population replacement.

    Like


  340. PA, the west’s evil policies of population replacement is just the rich oligarchy finding cheaper labor. They have been doing to us prolateriates since the begining of time. Why do you think I’m here.

    In my opinion, PC is simply having manners. Think of how hurtful it is when a woman is very mean to you simply because you approached her in a bar.

    Like


  341. David, what are you afraid of in *rural* areas? White people?

    I’ll explain this a bit further.

    Rural crime rates in the United States tend to be low, and areas of low density like the rural US or your native Finland means that your chance of being the victim of a crime is low. The problem is that one of my preferred hobbies, roadgeeking, means that part of enjoying my hobby may take me to places where close-minded or racist individuals may lurk. In other words, I may meet cops who when they pull me over presume that I’m a drug dealer or drug mule or some other type of potential felon. I may walk into a restaurant where everybody gives me dirty looks or the owner either refuses to serve me or poorly serve me. I may meet a hotel owner who may choose not to give me room to stay in. PA brings up sleeping overnight at a rest area, but I may encounter some “bored kids” who think that my presence is a threat and they may attempt to attack me.

    So as much as I may want to drive along I-80 in the Nevadan desert or Bundesautobahn 2 to Berlin or the Alsaka Highway to Fairbanks, I may be taking a big risk in entering rural areas that are not tolerant of non-whites.

    Like


  342. The words Camille Cosby used to describe the guy who killed her son could easily be used to describe PA instead

    Oh no, I wouldn’t go that far. I don’t see him as being hateful of blacks. I just think he’s someone who’s so tired of political correctness that he becomes too sensitive to any hint of it and starts reading political correctness into comment that is not harsh on nonwhites, just like some blacks read racism into any sentiment that is politically incorrect regarding blacks. But I don’t think he’s a bad guy at all.

    Like


  343. Population Replacement is not just the oligarchs finding cheap labor, although that’s part of it. It’s also socialist politicians finding socialist voters.

    Like


  344. Every people on this planet are entitled by the most basic of human rights to have their own country. If me and ten million of my Slavic cousins moved to Korea, even on our best behavior, we’d be committing a crime against humanity, on the level of genocide, against the people of Korea. We’d be befouling the Korean people’s habitat. What greater crime can there be?

    By the way, I don;’t have a problem with non-whites. In fact, I like them. I have lived on every continent on this planet except Australia, and I recognize the richness of al the world’s cultures.

    What I reject is the elites in Western countries who are pursuing a policy of population replacement by flooding countires like Finland with millions of Somalis and Ghanians. This is pure evil. As is any kind of genocide.

    I agree with a lot of what you say, actually. I do think the West, both in America with Mexicans and Europe with Africans and Muslims, are much too lax with immigration and don’t take enough steps to preserve their borders, language or culture, and that it’s the equivalent of cultural suicide. I actually don’t think you dislike black people. But I notice that you tend to be binary about your views on political correctness. If something is not politically incorrect, you automatically lump it in with politically correct excusemaking. Sometimes a statement can be in the middle.

    Like


  345. chic, that’s just it. It’s good to keep manners in daily interactions, but “manners” are no basis for national policy. Right now we’re stuck importing loads and loads of illiterate Muslims who have absolutely no place in a modern society, mainly because acknowledging the simple truth is simply not “nice” towards them. So, we’re going to import and import, until it all gets so impossible to ignore that people become willing to vote for candidates that aren’t nice.

    PC is what’s to blame for the success of people like Le Pen.

    Like


  346. T., I’m about to check out for the night, but I appreciate your comments. I do have to say that you’re one of the most interesting commentators I’ve read online.

    Like


  347. So as much as I may want to drive along I-80 in the Nevadan desert or Bundesautobahn 2 to Berlin or the Alsaka Highway to Fairbanks, I may be taking a big risk in entering rural areas that are not tolerant of non-whites

    It’s only the rural areas in this country that I’m afraid to visit, other places not so much.

    PA, if I offended you earlier, I apologize. I don’t think you are a murderer.

    Like


  348. It’s only the rural areas in this country that I’m afraid to visit, other places not so much.

    The rural areas of any nation are questionable for non-whites to visit. Just as the American countryside may be littered with racists, the European countryside is littered with ultra right groups who though Hitler was right. I’d rather take my chances in locales with liberal whites to protect me and keep me safe.

    Like


  349. I don’t think you are a murderer.

    That’s the sweetest thing I’ve ever heard!

    Scratch that. The nicest thing I’ve ever heard is a friend, some years back, who said this with utter bewilderment:

    “PA, don’t get me wrong. You’re my friend and all, but how is it that you are such an asshole, and yet you get all the ladies?” 😉

    Like


  350. jaakkeli
    Right now we’re stuck importing loads and loads of illiterate Muslims who have absolutely no place in a modern society, mainly because acknowledging the simple truth is simply not “nice” towards them
    I agree with you 80%. In the USA, most of our Muslim imagrints are of the educated class. There are numbers out there somwhere but I not in the mood to go searching for them. People who refuse to assimalate are a problem. People who assimalte but still maintain some vestages of their culture are not.

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  351. jaakkeli

    Another problem with recent imagration is bringing in new immigrants when there aren’t enough jobs for the natives. When times are tuff people will turn against the “other” and blame them for all of their problems

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  352. DA, outside of this country, your “African-Americaness” will set you apart from other blks. Your mannerisms will be a dead give away that you are not st8 out of “the bush”.Think of how you set yourself apart from blk Americans when calling yourself Haitian. Just behave yourself and all will be fine(for the most part). When you travel internationally, you will find yourself surprised at how much some non Americans know about African-American History.

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  353. David, as much as I like him, sees white people not as human beings, but as a backdrop for non-whites to prosper among. As petri-dish agar, for foreign cultures to grow on. According to him, whites don’t deserve to have their own habitat, so to speak. They have no human rights and no civil rights.

    I think you’d be pleasantly surprised. White people are human beings too. 🙂

    White people have their “native” habitats, but I don’t see how a group of non-whites in general will somehow take away their habitat. If these groups come to a country, learn the native language, work, pay taxes, and engage in some cultural traits of the natives, did this group magically take away the land from white people? On the flip side, if a group of whites moved to Haiti, does that take away from the habitat for Haitians? There are Mormons right now trying to convert Haitians to their religion, and it certainly doesn’t bother me because it doesn’t make Haiti any less Haitian.

    Mind you, given the dearth of opportunities for people in certain parts of the world, it’s rather obvious that citizens of poor nations would make their way into white nations where they’re tolerated and have the ability to make the best use of their skills and talents. If East Asian nations were accepting immigrants, I’d imagine that they’d go there too.

    Regardless, even if one was to create a hermetically sealed border with minimal legal immigration, you still must cope with the issues of dealing with the first and second generation of native born non-“native” children. My problem isn’t with immigration per se, but with what we’re going to do with these descendants like myself because we’re not going to go away.

    It’s too bad that Algerian-born French people got driven out of north Africa, though. Or Vietnam. Or English people from Rhodesia.

    The sad part is that in all three situations, it was essentially the revenge-minded decisions of the political classes to prevent a possible “fifth column” of resistance from developing. Hell, in Zimbabwe’s case, it was because Mugabe has the black opposition suppressed leaving the white farmers as the only force to stop him from destroying that state. IMHO, these citizens should have never been forced to leave just simply out of fairness and human decency.

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  354. David, I’m from the European countryside and really, there are no racist right groups there. Trust me. I know anti-socialist militias and I know people who think campaigning against witchcraft is a good election plan. Eagerly right, but not racist. Racism is urban.

    Besides, the actual Nazis weren’t even violent towards black people. There were Africans living safely in Germany for the whole period. Actually, the poor treatment of blacks in the US was a big part of Nazi propaganda against America and was bought by much of the Western left (who’s Roosevelt to lecture Hitler on the treatment of minorities?).

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  355. Another problem with recent imagration is bringing in new immigrants when there aren’t enough jobs for the natives.

    Interestingly, one could argue that immigrants have essentially exposed the underbelly of European economic policy, and that fact that Europeans have been unable to create the jobs needed to keep their populace employed, and interestingly, well-housed to allow for the population growth of the native citizenry.

    David, I’m from the European countryside and really, there are no racist right groups there.

    Who are the Neo-Nazi and ultra-right wing organizations that I see in European media? They tend be shown in smaller towns and cities in the rural countryside.

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  356. chic, roissy:

    People who are old, fat, ugly, poor etc. can get away with far less in the way of human flaws than the young, thin, pretty, rich. Without her money and looks do you think Paris Hilton would have thus far eluded the death penalty? There’s no gender divide here.

    As far as immigration, I recall Number 2 in Austin Powers: “There are no governments, only corporations”.

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  357. The media is more than slightly biased against the countryside. Still, if you’re talking about small *cities*, there are of course the stereotypical cities that used to have a big factory or two that went to China while the left-wing politicians kept praising globalization. (That’s another ridiculous media lie – the so-called far-right parties are rarely actually right-wing, usually they’re just left-wing parties without the SWPLism.) The number one source of far right votes are the immigrant heavy but not yet immigrant dominated poor suburbs of bigger cities.

    I suspect this argument is more of an issue of what you’d consider “rural”… if it’s even remotely possible to not know everyone who lives a mile away, it’s not rural to me.

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  358. btw chic, I am a woman. I didn’t want to sound as though I was putting you on the spot for our sex re “ugly men can’t get away with being jerky”. I was just stating my observation.

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  359. I think an ugly alpha can get away with being rude more than a good-looking beta can.

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  360. chicnoir:
    why do you abbreviate “blk”, but not, say, “wht” or “azn”?
    i’ve always wondered this.

    sfg:
    no. at least not for now.

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  361. As I’ve said countless times over the past seven years, I am absolutely convinced that if most middle- and upper-middle class white men weren’t “fight virgins” more than 3,000 lives would have been saved and America wouldn’t have descended into panty piddling paranoia.

    Oh, fuck you.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slogan_%27Let%27s_Roll%27

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  362. i agree with roissy.

    sad that this type of situation exists in the first place. though i think he’s analyzing a bit too much.

    if there were two contestants and the first is proved not to be the father, 100% of the expectation is then shifted to the second. if he’s not the father, 80% of the disappointment (20% having been displayed on the prior candidate) is left for the poor guy. Be it the fault/design of production people or whatever, that poor sap was left to absorb all the blame with none of the real responsibility.

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  363. sorry if that was confusing – I basically meant to say that all that stuff is staged, and it’s hard to figure out whether there’s anyone who you should genuinely feel sorry for. if anyone, it seems to be the guy/girl getting screwed.

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  364. @346 Jaakkeli

    Problem compounded by the fact that we’re NOT importing people from the minority sub-cultures of the Arab-Muslim world (anymore) like Lebanese Maronites, Iraqi Assyrians and Chaldeans, and Egyptian Copts who were more culturally-mobile, generally more Westernized, and more positive in their view of the West. Even some Muslim traditions (Pakistani Ismailis, for example) have a pietistic, quiescent tradition analogous to the Jewish Talmudic “The law of the kingdom is the law” or the Christian “render unto Caesar” that pretty much precludes aggressive Jihad or Da’wa.

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  365. johhny five -Sometimes I abbreviate wht and Asian too.
    Hello- No problem, we agree anyway.

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  366. she of the chiclet mind wrote:
    Why is it less OK for a one to act like a bitch than a ten?

    you tell me. you brought it up.

    “oh, i know *exactly* what you mean and that is why my leetle probing questions regarding your slippery moral code are making you uncomfortable and agitated”

    Actually you become agitated whenever I make a comment about ugly men.

    actually, i just like to call you out when you write stupid shit.

    “here is what you wrote in reply (in your usual pidgen english)”
    thanks

    your refusal to answer my question is duly noted.

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  367. Very inersting & important topic, thanks for posting it up, Roissy. I’m a bit late to the dance, but I had a few comments to share, and a question to pose.

    I too have paid some attention to the Maury Show, and despite charges from some quarters that it trades in daytime “trash” tv w/blatant racial overtones, I think it serves as a powerful window onto our Sexual Political landscape. It is both a powerful commentary & testiomony on the dirty nitty-gritty as to what happens when the arid intellectual social-sexual theories of (almost entirely Leftwing) Elites comes to Real Life.

    Perhaps someone has already asked this question before, and if they have I apologize in advance; but the question I’ve always asked since Maury’s Who My Baby’s Daddy focus in the 90s was:

    What happens when the Daddy Test, all but 100% foolproof, says, “You are NOT the Father!”? Then what?

    British Common Law, on which our Society was and is still largely based, deemed a husband to be fully accountable for any children born during the length of a marriage. This understanding, even while medical technological advances have undeniably been able to determine paternity one way or another, remains largely intact-and as Roissy has observed elsewhere-I think lots of women know this, too.

    The answer to my rhetorical question above is there, but implicit-when All else fails, we, the Taxpayer, must pay. But its helpful to view it in the way Roissy has presented and which I myself have always seen it-what we are really doing, is paying for another man’s Pumps.

    While I share Roissy’s sentiment I am not prepare o go as far to implement such Spartan-like notions; instead, I say turn the matter over to the Private Sector, where Charities, Christian in the main, have always dealt with such issues. That way, those who WANT to help, may contribute of their own Volition.

    But again, Feminists in the main, and Women in general, do not wish to honor our collective right to Freedom of Association; they wish to coerce the rest of us to underwrite the private choices of others, good or bad-and don’t get it twisted, I’m just as vehement in my opposition to the Bailout(s) on Wall St and elsewhere that’s sure to come, launched in part by the GOP.

    I’ll hold here. Comments?

    Salaam
    Mu

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  368. […] girlfriend that he will have a paternity test done on her baby when it is born. Mel has been reading my blog. I’m glad to see him shedding the straightjacket of his beta religious sensibilities. A […]

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