Priests Are Either Betas Or Closeted Gays

Following on the heels of the pedophilic priest scandals of a few years ago, it was obvious to me that most of those accused were closeted gays who used the cover of the celibate priesthood to hide from their gayness and to prey on underage altar boys on the cusp of manhood. Gay men are as drawn to youth and beauty as straight men are (men are visually oriented no matter what sex they are attracted to) and in all the noise at the time about the Catholic Church’s refusal to allow priests to marry what was lost was that most of the perpetrators targeted boys. In poker, that would be known as a major tell.

Well, now we have news that middle-aged men are turning to the priesthood in droves. And reading between the lines, it’s easy to see these guys are betas who lost in the race to find a woman for themselves:

The Rev. Michael Bies heard the same call, but before he did, he worked 20 years as a machinist in his native Chicago and even considered marriage. Ordained about four years ago, Bies, 52, is associate pastor of St. Mary’s Church in Pontiac.

Take a look at his photo in the accomanying link for verification of his beta status. Lesser betas who aren’t gay and who have gone their whole lives without succeeding at the only game that matters — getting a woman — probably find the priesthood a more attractive alternative than do normal men who enjoy the delights of pussy on the regular. If the choice is between delivering sermons to a captive audience or riding out the rest of your miserable days in lonely grinding celibacy until you die stuck to the couch with a bowl of cheetos in your lap and the flicker of porn on your computer monitor, I’d imagine the calling would be very strong indeed.

Naturally, most refuse to see the ugly truth and turn instead to more pleasing rationales for the increase in middle-aged priests:

Paul Sullins, a professor at the Catholic University of America, said the average age at ordination has risen by 10 to 15 years since the 1970s — part of a national trend toward increased education and later-life commitments.

“An increasing proportion of priests today are entering their second or third careers,” said Sullins, adding the trend may help relieve the shortage of priests in the U.S.

It’s no wonder the average age of ordination has risen 15 years since the 1970s — that’s when the sexual revolution took off. With later marriage and more years playing the field, men who got the short end of the genetic stick could delude themselves into an extra decade of hoping that a woman will come their way.

Monsignor Paul Showalter, vicar general of the Peoria Diocese, agreed. Showalter said, in general, the trend toward older priests is beneficial.

It all comes down to “when they get the calling,” he said.

“The Calling”: When you reach the age that your sex drive has plummeted and your chances with women have sufficiently dried up that enforced celibacy isn’t a sacrifice.

Knowing that “God is using you to bring solace and peace,” helps him cope, he said.

Translation: Knowing that the priesthood is a socially acceptable outlet for hopeless betatude helps him cope.

The celibacy requirement is actually a gift, said Bies, because it “frees you up to see all people as part of your family.”

Translation: The celibacy requirement lets him avoid reckoning the painful ugly reality of his loser loveless life. Part of his family will now include blossoming young teenage girls sitting in his pews taunting him every Sunday with their ripe bodies SO CLOSE yet SO UNAVAILABLE.

The divine irony of it all is that the social status — the “podium effect” — of delivering sermons to a large attentive audience will make these lesser beta priests more attractive to more women… and completely off-limits by the draconian celibacy rule. If he attempts to act on his higher status by banging one of his Sunday best groupies, he will have risked losing the source of power that gave him more leverage in the sexual market. What a conundrum!

I don’t think I would last in the priesthood longer than the time it took me to lure a God-fearing babe into my rectory — one week, tops.

I believe priests should be allowed to marry. That would at least solve the problem of the priesthood turning into a closeted gay ghetto. And it would encourage more well-adjusted straight guys to spread the word of god, because a man spreading his wife’s legs every night understands what it’s like to be filled with God’s love.





Comments


  1. Did it ever occur to you that some of these men are becoming priests because of genuine religious calling?

    In any event, as I understand it, even a deeply Beta man in his 40’s or 50’s can get married fairly easily, so long as he is willing to forego having children (which clearly is the case with these priest candidates). There are plenty of divorced middle-aged women who aren’t too caught up anymore in the whole Alpha/Beta deal.

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  2. haha… nice

    organized religion is a farce to begin with. anyone trying to elevate themselves within its rank & file are more than likely douche-bags to begin with.

    they can have it…

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  3. There are plenty of divorced middle-aged women who aren’t too caught up anymore in the whole Alpha/Beta deal.

    lmao

    riiiiiight… older women are even more concerned with the alpha/beta thing as are younger women. put the pipe down dude.

    and refer to my previous post regarding the whole “genuine religious calling” bullshit.

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  4. Agreed about the last paragraph. The only reason for priestly celibacy was the Roman church was too damned broke, and later too damn cheap and greedy, to pay its priests enough to support families. No other non-marginal Judeo-Christian sect has this onerous, nonsensical (I’m truly grateful that I’ll never have to suffer through marriage counselling with one of these virginal fruits posing as an expert) requirement, not the Protestants not the Jews not the Orthodox not the Muslims. It should be ditched immediately.

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  5. Allow me to quote:

    “…the only game that matters — getting a woman — ”

    “…because a man spreading his wife’s legs every night understands what it’s like to be filled with God’s love.”

    Roissy, this is perhaps the most BETA post you’ve ever made. Anyone who worships women this much is only pretending to be an alpha. Do I see a bit of a soft spot in that oh-so-cynical heart? Dare I say it… are there actual feelings there? Is the priesthood in YOUR future?

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  6. Did it ever occur to you that some of these men are becoming priests because of genuine religious calling?

    i’m sure that’s what they tell themselves.

    Anyone who worships women this much is only pretending to be an alpha.

    understanding that replication is the name of the game is not the same as worshipping women. hope this heals.

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  7. The biblical basis for Catholic celibacy is flimsy, but to change course, after centuries, would be to admit the errancy of the Vatican.

    I’ve belonged to both Catholic and Protestant churches, and must agree that (in general) Catholic priests are weirdos compared to Protestant pastors. I’ve had a crush on my divorced 50 year old Lutheran pastor for his intelligence, comedy, athleticism, confidence, spirituality, and solid moral compass. He has the ability of actors to modify his voice and sermon presentation to fit the message of the moment.

    Another shout out to the priest who helped me with farm chores after my father died.

    I agree that priests should be married.

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  8. Actually, well-to-do people contributed enormously to the Church from an early period in its history. THAT, in fact, was one of the reasons why the Church came to expect celibacy of its priests, although this has never been an absolute demand in canon law.* People – both laypeople and Church officials, that is – feared that offices in the Church would become family sinecures if priests were allowed to marry.

    Even with priestly celibacy, this happened to some extent; there were wealthy families in which large numbers of men would take up powerful positions as bishops, etc., as a matter of course. But the properties and incomes on which they depended continued to belong to the Church, not to the priests’ families, as they likely would have eventually done if marriage and its inheritance laws had made it possible for priests to inherit their positions in the Church directly. Married people must of necessity put their families ahead of all other obligations. A celibate priest is naturally less involved in purely worldly affairs than a married one.

    Celibacy has always been seen as a mark of holiness, and in nearly all cultures (think of Buddhist monks, Hindu holy men, Roman Vestal Virgins), not just Christian ones, because it requires that people give up two of the major pleasures of life in the world: children and sex. It’s true, though, that only the Catholic church expects lifelong celibacy of its priests as well as of its monks and nuns.

    Clio

    *The expectation of priestly celibacy is an expectation rather than an outright demand in the Catholic Church; priests in the Church’s early years were allowed to marry, and priests in the Eastern Rite Catholic churches are still allowed to do so.

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  9. i had the same idea when i first saw this headline. nice to see someone else thinks the same.

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  10. In the church’s early days, the Roman division was the poor ass hillbilly branch…as you point out, the failure of any other significant branch of the church to adopt this aberration is telling. It had nothing to do with Egyptian desert monks, maybe 5% to do with assuring Roman noblemen that the clergy wouldn’t handle their matrons, and the rest to do with expedience. It’s not like the clergymen who would afford families — the bishops and above — didn’t have huge bastard families in fairly high numbers up until the Counter-Revoultion. Borgia, anybody?

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  11. The priest that I grew up with in my church hunted, fished, was a Korean War vet and eventually retired and then got married to the widowed church secretary. Is that Beta going to alpha? Or still Beta? Obviously he’s not gay.

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  12. Kinda has me wondering about the trend of having a sharp increase in Asian-Pacific American men entering the priesthood.

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  13. >>understanding that replication is the name of the game is not the same as worshipping women.

    when do you plan to have kids?

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  14. when do you plan to have kids?

    contraceptives allow me to play the game on my own terms.

    you guys are gonna have to try harder than this to trip me up. what, do you think this is amateur hour? hit the bricks!

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  15. >>try harder than this to trip me up

    i wasn’t trying to trip you up. i just find your view paradoxical.

    if the whole point of sex is to replicate, isn’t having sex for pleasure alone (and wanting never to have kids) missing the point?

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  16. Pupu has always wondered whether the mechanism of sin-and-confess may induce more sin, causing something like a bulimia of sins.

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  17. This must be a catholic thing.

    The protestant priests I’ve known are not particularily Beta, especially if they serve large, wealthy church’s. You don’t get to be head of a major episcopal congregation by being a herb. You’ve got to organize fund raisers, deal with big donors, the church heirarchy, handle difficult/charged emotional situations (funeral, weddings), counsel people, manage a fairly large staff and put up with some massive egos that are cloaked in religious righteousness.

    Honestly, I knew an Episcopal Priest in Dallas, a former UT football letterman, who could beat your ass Roissy, and take your woman if he felt like it.

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  18. “Did it ever occur to you that some of these men are becoming priests because of genuine religious calling?”

    So what is your sermon on this week, Peter?

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  19. The Maury Povich Show is the new confessional booth. Real priests don’t offer airfare and roundtrips to NYC for the airing your dirty secrets!

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  20. “isn’t having sex for pleasure alone (and wanting never to have kids) missing the point?”

    Never feels like it is missing the point.

    – MPM

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  21. if the whole point of sex is to replicate, isn’t having sex for pleasure alone (and wanting never to have kids) missing the point?

    it’s missing your gene’s point. but then i don’t care what my genes want from me when i’m having so much fun at their expense!

    causing something like a bulimia of sins.

    would pupu care for a wafer thin sin?

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  22. Great post as always Roissy!!!!!

    “Part of his family will now include blossoming young teenage girls sitting in his pews taunting him every Sunday with their ripe bodies SO CLOSE yet SO UNAVAILABLE.”

    Hahaha, sounds great. A better occupation however would be teacher of an all girls catholic highschool, where you could contemplate the young women in their cute miniskirts and/or jumpers.
    The real reason why the church prohibited marriage was to avoid legitimate offspring and the following inheritance problems. These problems, also lessened (working for a church is like working for a huge corporation) still exist, because the priest and his potential family form close bonds to the local community.

    “any event, as I understand it, even a deeply Beta man in his 40’s or 50’s can get married fairly easily, so long as he is willing to forego having children (which clearly is the case with these priest candidates). ”
    Only an idiot marries a woman who is past her childbearing years, unless she has money or he is sick and needs to be taken care of. A man is usualy better off alone than with a menopausic woman, unless he formed a bond with her during her youth.

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  23. “This must be a catholic thing.”

    It is a Catholic thing. Just look at Joel Osteen’s wife. Hint: He’s not Catholic…

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  24. Evidently, they play by different rules in Italy. From the Telegraph.UK:

    Italian man catches wife in bed with priest
    An Italian husband returned home early from work to find his wife in bed with their local priest.

    By Nick Pisa in Rome
    Last Updated: 5:33PM BST 14 Sep 2008

    Following the shock discovery, the man stormed into the local bishop’s office in Chioggia, near Venice, and demanded an explanation. Later police were called to calm him down.

    Details of the incident in Chioggia near Venice emerged on Sunday in Italian newspapers and the local bishop Angelo Daniel has now confirmed that the adulterous priest has been sent to another parish for “reeducation”.

    The 53-year-old priest was described as a specialist on the Bible and had been a good friend of the couple.

    The husband, 39, and his wife, 37, have two children.

    Bishop Daniel added: “I have always respected the priest in question and I will continue to respect him. You cannot discount all the good a person has done in their life just because of one mistake.”

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  25. Some churchmen had huge bastard families. Not all, at any time in history. And it happened less often in the Church’s early centuries than it did after Romen began to recover from the barbarian invasions in the 10th century AD. But I think you missed most of my point. It was a kind of expediency that led the push for celibate clergy, but not the kind you mentioned in your original comment. Sex and childrearing (which could not readily be separated, even if the use of the primitive contraceptives of the day had been sanctioned by the Church) by necessity involved the clergy in worldly concerns in a way that did not become the role of the priest as one of Christ’s representatives on earth.

    Anyway, for centuries the priesthood carried considerable worldly power and status with it, so that it was attractive to many men who were not betas and might not be especially religious, either (though alpha status and religious devotion are not necessarily mutually exclusive, contra Roissy).

    clio

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  26. “Honestly, I knew an Episcopal Priest in Dallas, a former UT football letterman, who could beat your ass Roissy, and take your woman if he felt like it.”

    A college pro athlete could might be able to kick his ass. But “take his woman if he felt like it.”? What fantasy do you live in? Kicking someone’s ass does not mean you win their lady.

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  27. I think, and I could be wrong, that part of the celibacy/no marriage thing was a way of forcing the priests to leave all their worldly possessions to the church, which back in the middle ages, when joining the church was considered a path to power and success for wealthy families, was a pretty big deal.

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  28. It’s not about the physical. The guy was a charming dude. Smart, well spoken, confident, good looking. He was smooth, and in the corporate world, he would have been an alpha player. He just chose a different calling.

    I mean, he was head of a very wealthy episcopal church in Dallas. That’s a BIG gig. Religious organizations, in many ways, are just like any company. The cream rises. Crappy priests minister in the sticks. Good priests, who can raise money, give a good sermon, and navigate the church hierarchy, end up at rich megachurchs.

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  29. Clergymen have the lowest levels of testosterone of all professions.

    Trial lawyers have the highest.

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  30. “if the whole point of sex is to replicate, isn’t having sex for pleasure alone (and wanting never to have kids) missing the point?”

    The proximate cause of sex is for pleasure, the ultimate cause is reproduction and the ultimate-ultimate (if there is such a term) reason for sex probably has something to do with the Red Queen theory whereby sex increases the rate that adaptation occurs.

    So at least he’s satisfying 1 out of 3.

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  31. Are Myers-Briggs scores correlated with testosterone levels, or orthagonal?

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  32. You devil! Just one small piece then.

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  33. A fallacy of composition arises when one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole (or even of every proper part).

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  34. would pupu care for a wafer thin sin?

    gimmee a bucket

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  35. Pupu needs to stop using the 3rd person because it is irritating and makes Pupu sound stupid.

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  36. Pupu would sound stupid even if Pupu didn’t use the 3rd person.

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  37. Roissy

    Everyone knows that a great many priests are homosexuals in various stages of sublimation of their sexual urges.

    Everyone also knows that many priests chose celibacy because for them they are not giving up as much as other men would. We all know that Casanova could not become a priest, at least not until his seventies (and probably not then either).

    It is however a mistake to think that the life of the mind is simply the loser’s refuge, chosen solely because focusing on rutting was such an unrewarding focus in life for many men, who you call for that reason alone “betas”.

    The type of immersive mental work that garners far more universal respect these days (I think for good reason, but regardless, it clearly does) is science.

    It is possible Sir Isacc Newton died a virgin. Whether he did or not he clearly lived most of his life in celibacy. As a young man and of his own volition he did once propose marriage, but it went nowhere, for unknown reasons. There is no record of his ever having any romantic liasons or trips to a bawdy house. Yet his monastic like work transformed physics and science.

    Newton may have been an extreme example of a rule-less celibate ascetic, but science was often or usually advanced by men who focused very little on getting laid, and probably didn’t all that much. This was true from the rebirth of empirical science in Christian Europe in the Renaissance, to this day. Much is made of the lethario scientist exceptions, but they are exceptions.

    Creative artists can be quite the opposite and in fact probably usually are. Though scholars of the arts, or other areas of human knowledge, are often more like scientists.

    As someone who does mightily enjoy seduction and sex, I think it’s ridiculous to reduce all human activity to the measure of how instrumental it is in getting laid often and well by bushels of different women. If anything, the opposite might often be true. To my mind though, a balance is best. Not a tepid balance that avoids tasting deeply of either extreme, but a swirling balance, that bites deeply into both, in turn.

    Appetite for food is a human essential, but excessive indulgence of that appetite, especially without fine art and artistry, is hardly the pinnacle of human achievement.

    A bit more balance would be nice Roissy. I realize that our society gripped so pervasively as it is by radical feminism, has enormous need of fundamental correction, and that that has happened far too little in the public sphere.

    But please Roissy, at least show some glimmers of a synthesis, beyond your hammering out your all too needed anti-thesis.

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  38. clio:
    Celibacy has always been seen as a mark of holiness, and in nearly all cultures (think of Buddhist monks, Hindu holy men, Roman Vestal Virgins),

    Brahmins can have sex and families.

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  39. Fortunately, Pupu is under the shiny armor of a third person. The first person is too thin skinned to take the attack.

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  40. What do you plan to do with your life, Roissy? I don’t see anything happening, except for the endless bragging and the childish chasing after tail.

    Anything going professionally? Making any money blogging?

    I don’t see that great a future for you, buddy. 30 years will pass before you know it.

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  41. Celibacy is creepy. It seems to me that protestant pastors are a lot more charismatic and commanding figures than Catholic clergy exactly because of this rule. Hence mega-churches, televangelists, cult leaders, and other Big Man protestant phenomenons, that don’t seem to happen with Catholics.

    And here’s the best part, I’ll bet in Islamic countries where higher status can legally translate into multiple wives, the preachers are EVEN MORE charismatic. Because the higher the potential sexual status reward, the more incentive there is for high quality, skilled people to compete for the position.

    Perhaps this is one of the overlooked reasons for the popularity of Islamic fundamentalism. If Imams needed to be celibate, then they would all be no-chin losers… and who the fuck listens to them?

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  42. Man, you sure told him, on the internet! He’ll think twice about his actions now for certain.

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  43. dougjnn:
    But please Roissy, at least show some glimmers of a synthesis,

    roissy has no interest in hypothesis. he doesn’t believe in syllogism, or synthesis, or any absolute. what does he believe in? chaos. and you don’t even have to believe in it. it’s self-evident.

    pupu the charmer:
    The first person is too thin skinned to take the attack.

    roissy likes pupu and her(?) self-referential devilry. but roissy particularly likes the way pupu ricochets off the lips.

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  44. FYI,prior to the Renaissance, priests were allowed to get/be married. Making priests take a vow of celibacy was suppose to do away with or at the very least decrease corruption within the church .

    It’s not only priests who are having problems with celibacy, nuns have problems with the vow as well. I came across a news item from France about sisters molesting some of the younger girls in the convent and even having affairs amongst themselves.

    In today’s world with all the STDs and unplanned pregnancies, celibacy is a good move for those who are able to deny to channel their desires into other productive activities.

    I don’t think celibacy is natural for most human beings but I do acknowledge that there are some individuals who are born asexual

    off topic:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/14/sports/playmagazine/0914play-NARED.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&sq=nared&st=cse&scp=1&oref=slogin

    femine female athletes

    yes or no?

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  45. roissy:

    Kickin’ post, two gatts up.

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  46. 1 Peter:

    Did it ever occur to you that some of these men are becoming priests because of genuine religious calling?

    What *else* is there — genuinely — to the “calling” besides the recognition of the cruel fate of genetic dross? That’s not to say it isn’t a necessary service, but the strong of the world have no need for such quaint notions — they get to act with impunity.

    Morality is a crutch that allows the disenfranchised the opportunity to feel noble. – C.S.H.

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  47. Roissy, you should read up on the “is-ought problem,” but I’ll leave that aside for now.

    You say that getting women is the only game that matters, because our genes have programmed us to really want to have sex with women (for the purposes of replication).

    You realize that you can trick your genes by satisfying the urges they’ve given you while avoiding what your genes are really trying to make you do. That’s fine, but perhaps we can also trick our genes by leading fulfilling lives without spending inordinate amounts of effort chasing women.

    Suppose that David Alexander is able to develop his imagination and masturbatory skill to such a degree that using it plus pornography is able to give him the same satisfaction that you get persuing actual women. He is tricking his genes by simulating sex, similar to how you are tricking your genes by “simulating” impregnating women. His simulation is just one level back from yours.

    You might argue that porn isn’t as satisfying to your genetically programmed desires as sex with real women, but this is just an engineering problem. Perhaps with advanced virtual reality, there will come a time when pornography is more satisfying than sex with any real life woman could be.

    What you are really saying is that “satisfying our biologically programmed impulses is the only game that matters,” and you are assuming that chasing women is the best way to do that. Maybe a hardcore mathematician is not able to trick his genes in such a way that he gets more fulfillment from math research than he would via chasing women.

    Maybe we can trick our genes by persuing high status and high achievement as our primary goal. These things are very rewarding to us because in the past they lead to sex with lots of women. The fact that some high achieving males don’t actually follow up on their achievement with actual sex (just like how you don’t follow up on your achievements by actually impregnating girls) doesn’t make the satisfaction they get from their achievement any less real.

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  48. “Maybe a hardcore mathematician is not able to trick his genes in such a way”

    This should read:

    “Maybe a hardcore mathematician is able to trick his genes in such a way”

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  49. on September 15, 2008 at 10:41 pm Glengarry Glenpoon

    When the topic of religion comes up, I always start wondering why I’m not FLDS.

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  50. on September 15, 2008 at 10:44 pm Days of Broken Arrows

    I grew up Catholic and think you totally called this. Bravo!

    Preists were (and are) either young closeted gay guys or older men who are unattractive to the point of looking deformed. The Catholic clergy is a refuge for the shameful and shamed.

    I want to add, though, that in retrospect I now realize a lot of the nuns were probably Lesbians.

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  51. I enjoy the fundamental contradictions on this blog. Either you spend a good part of your life bedding as many women as possible, which is admittedly a pleasurable thing, and reject and avoid the whole marriage trap in the process and prove yourself to be an independent, powerful alpha. Yet if you do that you are more likely than not, depending upon when you want to relinquish your alpha status and willingly enter the servitude of marriage, to end up an aging, celibate former player desperately trying to bed young women when really all you can have are aging hags. The pool of young, hot women dries up for you, and you will then be forced to be celibate, and die eating a bowl of cheetos while watching porn. You then die a beta, unless you like fucking grannies with sagging tits and wrinkled up asses and vagina’s drier than the Sahara desert. So which is it? Is marriage to a nagging, harpy wife who now wants to fuck the landscaper instead of you, is a family with whining, money sucking children, is a boring middle class job the thing that will save you from “grinding celibacy” when you get old. And what if your wife dies? What then? Still celibacy. Or do you remain a player your whole life until age forces you out of the game. Seems like life is a no win situation all the way around. So which is it? Be a player until you can’t get it up anymore or women no longer find you attractive, or get married and give up your masculine freedoms and alpha player status and risk being a dutiful beta whose wife will out of nowhere serve him his divorce papers, as had been mentioned on this blog more than once.

    Spirituality is a decent option for those who value a little bit more in life than pussy. I love pussy, but there is more to life than just that. The horrors of aging are the worst for those whose main goal in life when younger was fucking pretty women and who did not cultivate any other interests or desires beside that. It must be truly a living death.

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  52. You then die a beta, unless you like fucking grannies with sagging tits and wrinkled up asses and vagina’s drier than the Sahara desert.

    *DEAD*

    Racer X-excellent post and you are hilarious.

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  53. Or do you remain a player your whole life until age forces you out of the game. Seems like life is a no win situation all the way around. So which is it?

    i plan to drink heavily and solicit prostitutes.

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  54. “the only game that matters – getting a woman- ” Obviously Roissy has never been married. Once a cat snares a mouse it gets bored of its catch quick fast.

    Maybe these priests have been in long term relationships and realized what they were getting themselves into. No kidding I know an Alpha Bishop who went down that route.

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  55. “Be a player until you can’t get it up anymore or women no longer find you attractive, or get married and give up your masculine freedoms and alpha player status”

    Ah, decisions, decisions…

    I guess some men die young because they cannot face what old age brings them.

    “Spirituality is a decent option for those who value a little bit more in life than pussy. I love pussy, but there is more to life than just that. The horrors of aging are the worst for those whose main goal in life when younger was fucking pretty women and who did not cultivate any other interests or desires beside that. It must be truly a living death.”

    There is something fascinating about a formerly attractive empty shell in his, or her, late forties. You just barely see the former glory lurking in the shadows, a bit like visiting the Colosseum, all it takes is a bit of imagination to imagine what a catch he could have been in his day. Then you have this huge cloud of impending feebleness, inspiring a terror that makes him wake in cold sweat. He may have a friend who had a stroke and ended up with the side of his mouth hanging, in a wheelchair. More prominent is the sense of loss, not just the loss of youth, vitality and virility, but the loss of his identity. He tries not to feel this loss, to grasp onto the last straw of hope, as tiny as his chance may be. He could be redeemed. Saved. He would do *anything* for a piece of proof that he has still got it. Anything to regain identity. Often a clever whore, who may not go by that name, will act as his redeemer and save him from his living hell. At a price, of course.

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  56. chicnoir 44–

    yes or no?

    No. For the most part no.

    Female fitness and muscle tone yes. High levels of female athletic (or career) competitiveness is a turn off to most highly attractive men with lots of options (and utterly intimidating to many others, but then the women in question don’t much are about that, which is fine.)

    The following little snipit is I think ENORMOUSLY ILLUMINATING. The following observation was made by someone in the mainstream press, I believe a reporter for the Times of London.

    First there was an enormous amount of sexual activity going on between athletes at the olympics. Just huge.

    Second, male athletes who were medal winners, and particularly gold medal winners suddenly became positively surrounded by female athlete groupies after their wins. They did ok before, but afterwards look out. This was true even of men who didn’t look particularly masculine, relatively speaking. E.g. that what’s his name American swimmer who was much remarked upon. Even him. Others huge.

    Among female gold medal winners nothing comparable happened. Maybe even the reverse. Oh plenty of female athletes were getting plenty of action and had plenty of eager suitors, but they were often ones who weren’t at the highest levels of competitiveness, and often were eliminated early — only to relax into popularity and rut city.

    The Dutch women’s teams were especially popular. The goings on in their part of the olympic village became rather legendary.

    But…. I’m quite sure all the evidence in the world won’t change the feminist determined mindset. This twenty something generation has changed quite a bit from their mothers, and I think the next one wlll be less radical feminist still. It just doesn’t work very well for either men OR women.

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  57. This is totally a Catholic thing. All the Baptist pastors I’ve known took the track early and were married prior to 30. Some of them certainly not beta. Their dedication to God’s will, be it imaginary or real, made them bold as well as charismatic.

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  58. the strong of the world have no need for such quaint notions [religious calling]

    What about the US Marines? Many are in it because they feel something similar to a calling. They can certainly fuck more girls and make more money doing someting else, as officers have college degrees, and enlisted men are often above-average in IQ.

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  59. I think the celibacy rule is no longer necessary. It would be better for the Catholic church to give up for it. But once it had very far-reaching unintended consequences. In the middle ages the Catholic church was the only non-dynastic major power broker. It had the monopoly on lawful weddings. It was the ban on cousin marriages that helped end tribalism in the West.

    Read Steve Sailer’s superb essay Cousin Marriage Conundrum

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  60. …and enlisted men are often above-average in IQ.

    PA, I know plenty of Marines that would tell you themselves that’s a crock of shit…but they are all former officers.

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  61. “And here’s the best part, I’ll bet in Islamic countries where higher status can legally translate into multiple wives, the preachers are EVEN MORE charismatic. Because the higher the potential sexual status reward, the more incentive there is for high quality, skilled people to compete for the position.

    Perhaps this is one of the overlooked reasons for the popularity of Islamic fundamentalism. If Imams needed to be celibate, then they would all be no-chin losers… and who the fuck listens to them?”

    Islam is a religion of war. Its sacred texts include detailed instructions on how to divide the spoils of war (captive women and loot). Extra-marital sex is prohibited under islam but that does not apply to female captives in war. The founder of islam spent the his post-exile-to-Medina part of his life as a warlord.

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  62. 59 PA:

    What about the US Marines?

    The notion of strength or power is a relative one, always. And as vital a service as our servicemen provide, I am confident that the State is quite content to cynically dole out inspirational delusions to persuade our warriors to go off to die as cannon fodder thinking that they are
    important even as their fragile bodies are literally being
    tossed into a metal death machine to be ground into a mass of bloody agonized pulp — for their masters. *Our* masters.

    This is a generalization of course, and I would like state that these sorts of delusions,e.g. “the calling”, are necessary delusions for the smooth functioning of society, but delusions nonetheless.

    As we here on this blog don’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of affecting the order of things, we can rest easy that we will perforce acquire our oil reserves and have pleasant places for the herbs and betas to live out their days.

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  63. Karl #38,

    You write “Brahmins can have sex and families”. Yes, but Brahmins are not so much holy men or priests but an entire priestly caste. They are, as a group, to be distinguished from “holy men” like saddhus, who often (though not invariably) adopt celibacy as they wander through life with their begging bowls.

    The rest of you: It’s unlikely that homosexuals were present in the priesthood in large numbers until the 20th century. Throughout the Church’s history, while priests were repeatedly accused of every possible vice – worldliness, drunkenness, concubinage, corruption, ignorance, simony (look it up) – sodomy was almost never mentioned in the long catalogues of their sins, composed by Catholic reformers and Protestant critics, until the last 100 years or so.

    Even today, homosexuals are a minority among priests, according to the various studies done after the sex scandals broke. Some commentators did note, though, that some nuns, who often controlled admission to seminaries, seemed to be disposed towards taking homosexually inclined candidates.

    It’s foolish and self-serving to insist that every apparently celibate person must be hiding a life of sexual vice. It’s the kind of thing people love to think in order to excuse their own vices and flaws.

    clio

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  64. “it’s missing your gene’s point.”

    Not all of them, to the extent you have relatives, which, if you go back far enough, everybody does. So much for genes.

    You admit “the priesthood is a socially acceptable outlet for hopeless betatude.” Why is it socially acceptable? Why is maintenance of one of the oldest institutions in the world socially acceptable? Why does it endure? Why is remaining celibate a tenet for the priest role?

    “Roissy believes priests should be allowed to marry. That would at least solve the problem of the priesthood turning into a closeted gay ghetto.”

    No, it might conceivably help solve that problem, or, it might probably help solve that problem. There’s no rule against Broadway musical directors getting married, but yet that institution, to the extent it’s an institution, seems fairly gay ghetto-ish, or at least very pro-gay. Maybe there’s something in the nature of the Broadway theatre professions and the priestly vocation that attracts gay men? So just permitting marriage wouldn’t necessarily “at least solve” that priesthood as gay ghetto problem. You’ve mistaken possibility or probability for something else.

    Furthermore, your invalid presentation of marriage as, necessarily, a solution leads to a further mistake; it’s a false dilemma: permit marriage or ever suffer perverts running the show. There are other solutions. Don’t let them in. Kick them out if they do get in. Keep discipline in the ranks [think Six Sigma or whatever management method] to keep any marginals from falling. Train/lead those who can be led away from that. So much for “we-gotta-let-them-get-married-or-else.” Cf. “We-gotta-give-these-girls-condoms-or-they’ll-get-knocked-up.”

    Meanwhile, can’t you think of any downsides to doing away with priestly celibacy? I can think of several, but in terms of this site, one leaps to mind: professional rivalry between alpha-ish priests with hot wives vs. beta’s with homely or non-existent wives. Think institutional morale.

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  65. My question, is how many men are not entering the Priesthood and simply remaining singleton celibates? What will be their attitudes towards women (likely negative I think)? What will be their political and cultural influence.

    If women are largely desirous of the single motherhood model, having a few Alphas father their children, leaving the rest of the men unattached, what is the likely cost?

    I’d imagine only a small fraction of the losers of the mating game would enter the priesthood. The rest of the men would have negative attitudes towards women, they would not happily marry these women but rather remain single, fixated on porn, and totally unwilling to extend themselves to their female contemporaries.

    Dedrick your proposition depends on having lots of beta men slave away for no reason whatsoever to create all the infrastructure your possible future depends upon. Far more likely is a chaotic, West African future of fairly violent responses, within a decaying urban setting. Blade Runner without the replicants. Brutal and random violence a fact of daily life, accelerating the decay ever more.

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  66. If women are largely desirous of the single motherhood model, having a few Alphas father their children, leaving the rest of the men unattached, what is the likely cost?

    in the near term:
    1) porn and potentially greater access to prostitution (i.e. tijuana for those in socal or lessening of massage parlor restrictions in cities) might be enough to stave off hordes of betas from organizing into killing machines. i realize that there might not be greater access right now to prostitutes, but this political resistance will likely be forced to give way to the pragmatic reality of satiating the betas canal desires. btw, in parts of southeast asia, it is quite common to see middle aged and older white (and now even japanese guys) getting into serious relationships with prostitutes. same thing goes on in south brazil. doesn’t always work out when the betas bring the whores to the states for a variety of reasons. sometimes it does though.

    2) more betas will take an indifferent attitude to crimes against women. there is a lot of non- msm press (if you know where to look) about violence and gang rapes of women in various places of the anglosphere (like australia and western europe) by immigrants. if these reports are true, why isn’t there a lot of outcry by anyone? first, women’s groups have aligned themselves with transnational progressive organizations in those countries so don’t vociferously object for that reason. second, chivalry requires gratitude. the betas in those countries might be tired of not getting play from the native women in those countries. if a few of these women get raped or killed by outsiders, they might be adopting an ‘oh well’ stance.

    in the long term:
    1) more good-looking, tall and high iq guys like roissy will be created by voluntary genetic engineering. women, too. the genetic advantages the current alpha males and females have will be diluted by the new eugenics realities. as roissy has also stated, ‘there is strong evidence that beauty is not relative.’ in other words, there is a definite standard of beauty across all races. this is also contrary to the morons who like to argue that the red queen hypothesis will militate against eugenics cogently manipulating the situation as i described. with more beautiful people, there will be few to no betas within 1-2 centuries and the problem will take care of itself. as roissy has also predicted, there will be more happy people in such a scenario, too.

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  67. Whiskey —

    So much of this change comes about because the state helps support unmarried women with kids, or state power forces men to support children they either didn’t want (and she could have aborted), or only wanted together with the wife/mother services exchange.

    It’s pure state coercion of male earning power in either case.

    Men need to call and end to all this. If women want money from men to help with children, they should have to do what it takes to convince men ON AN ONGOING BASIS to want to keep providing that money help.

    The fact that many women can make it on their own these days even without any help beyond their earnings power doesn’t mean that’s always what they’d choose to do if that was their choice.

    Men were not convinced to provide this sort of government support and government coercion with any clear idea of what it would it would lead to, or how much women would take advantage of it. Instead the feminist and religious right progaganda, in a weird team up, was all about the poor abandoned woman and dead beat dads and what not.

    In fact it’s hubands and fathers that have been abandoned far, far more than the other way around.

    No wonder many men wouldn’t want to voluntarily support young children if a wife leaves for another man or in search of one when the kids are still infants, for example. Of course he’d rather start over. Let her find a new man to support her kids that she’s taken from him. Or else suffer. Along with her kids. Suffering is needed as a disincentive. The current marriage/divorce theft model is massively unfair to men, or always theatens to be, whenever a woman feels like it. Of course not all women do in all marriages. But it’s no accident that America has by far the highest divorce rate in the world, and has had since it particularly vicious and man hating/belitting /emasculating brand of feminism went mass media and educational establishment, some forty years ago.

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  68. Men need to call and end to all this. If women want money from men to help with children, they should have to do what it takes to convince men ON AN ONGOING BASIS to want to keep providing that money help.

    i totally agree with the above suggestion. but, it’s not happening and hasn’t happened so far. beta males (and to a lesser degree, men as a whole) in the anglosphere are largely unaware of the evil being perpetrated against them by womyn. they are like steve sailer’s analogy, the lobster that is slowly dying in the water because the heat is slowly turned up to boil in the pot. a more likely scenario is that men, and especially beta males, will continue to do nothing. marriage rates will continue to fall. divorce rates will continue to rise. society will continue to destabilize at a dilatory pace. a few lesbos will continue to benefit from the widespread antipathy generated by today’s welfare state between men and women. such a course will continue until or unless america inexorably falls to china/india in the global economic market- or until or unless voluntary formal eugenics saves us all from ourselves in my post 67. many will suffer, including many women.

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  69. The Dutch women’s teams were especially popular. The goings on in their part of the olympic village became rather legendary.

    @dougjnn
    I like Dutch people. Please give me more dirt on the Dutch women’s teams please.

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  70. “with more beautiful people, there will be few to no betas within 1-2 centuries and the problem will take care of itself. as roissy has also predicted, there will be more happy people in such a scenario, too.”

    Uh, regression to the mean, anyone ?

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  71. spot the alpha and beta chics

    it’s funny too 🙂

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  72. Spot the alpha chic

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  73. Uh, regression to the mean, anyone ?

    uh, open a genetics textbook, anyone? i’m suggesting that voluntary eugenics will simply eliminate disadvantageous genes for iq, facial morphology, height and if desired by some, skin color, hair color, hair texture… there is no regression if the genes no longer exist or exist in much lower numbers- through voluntary mechanisms, of course.

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  74. “voluntary eugenics will simply eliminate disadvantageous genes for iq, facial morphology, height and if desired by some, skin color, hair color, hair texture… there is no regression if the genes no longer exist or exist in much lower numbers” – through voluntary mechanisms, of course.”

    “I’m the magical man, from Happy Land, who lives in a gumdrop house on Lolly Pop Lane!!!!…… “

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  75. PA says: “What about the US Marines? Many are in it because they feel something similar to a calling. They can certainly fuck more girls and make more money doing someting else, as officers have college degrees, and enlisted men are often above-average in IQ.”

    “fuck more girls”? I thought there were Marine groupies and that Marines got laid pretty much any time they wanted to (although maybe not with high-quality women and certainly not with the career women who frequent the bars of DC).

    By the way, what’s the code for italics? Is it or [i]?

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  76. chicnoir 72–

    They do home ec. differently in Holland, don’t they?

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  77. doujnn, what is ec?

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  78. Do you mean home economics?

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  79. LauraByNight

    By the way, what’s the code for italics? Is it or [i]?

    It’s with an i in the middle, followed by one with a /i to end italics. I.e. it’s the standard html coding.

    What I’d like to know is what’s the wordpress specific code to get the indented quote preceded by the single open huge “” ?

    Not too many use that here, but some do, and it looks, well, swell.

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  80. Ahh, well it’s a challenge to write . That just disappeared above.

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  81. Let’s try this <>.

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  82. Bingo. double the number of cuniforms to get one pair to survive for show and tell. Ok, put an i in the middle of that. Then close it up with a /i in the middle of another pair.

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  83. Home economics.

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  84. Pupu feels girl to dougjnn.

    dougjnn likes girly, especially in a young woman would can do that too.

    Girly is to be encouraged in this day and age.

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  85. i think Racer-X is on to something, I plan to play Casanova until my early thirties then find a woman in her early twenties to make some babies with. I plan on picking a 7 who grew-up in a family-oriented environment and whose priority is to start a family–these girls are plentiful outside of status-whore coastal cities. Raising kids seems meaningful and rewarding(though admittedly expensive). I plan on ameliorating the mundane aspects of child-rearing by outsourcing all domestic tasks. With regard to the priesthood, a life of celibacy just ain’t natural and the church should eliminate the arbitrary rule

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  86. Freak Show — won’t the race to Alpha-dom just mean there will be more attractive betas? Since in the end, to paraphrase Highlander, there can be only a few. By definition. If women only want the most dominant, does that not imply a race to dominance ala the Black Community? The most poverty-stricken guy in the ghetto can up the dominance route by simply thugging it up.

    And in the short term, “betas” adopting that strategy as well?

    I am not convinced that the welfare state is to blame. Places where it does not exist: Tunisia, Iran, Algeria, and Japan have an explosion of single motherhood and lowered TFR just like the West. If women can afford single motherhood and pursuit of Alphas they will take it, is how I read that.

    Plastic surgery alone suggests regression to the means, and of course given how IQ and testosterone are mutually exclusive, it would imply a lower-IQ society, with much more violence. More like West Africa, than anyplace else. Since again that’s the quickest way to dominance and thus, reproduction.

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  87. Dedrick your proposition depends on having lots of beta men slave away for no reason whatsoever to create all the infrastructure your possible future depends upon. Far more likely is a chaotic, West African future of fairly violent responses, within a decaying urban setting. Blade Runner without the replicants. Brutal and random violence a fact of daily life, accelerating the decay ever more.

    Beta men are already slaving away at creating virtual reality, nanotech, biotech, AI, etc. My vision of the future only requires that betas continue doing what they’ve always done.

    I don’t understand why you and others expect some sort of violent revolt. We are so far away from that now. Just try to start a violent beta club with the aim of overthrowing the government or something and see how little interest you get from normal guys. I believe commenters here wildly overestimate the chance of this happening because this blog is filled with people who focus on the alpha/beta distinction out of all proportion to how much most guys care about it.

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  88. “Priests Are Either Betas Or Closeted Gays”

    Hmm…. You think???

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  89. personally, i think it’s the uniform. something about a man in a black suit. WAY hot. especially when you’re confessing your sins behind a screen…

    gents, take note: a suit can help you cross the line from greater beta to alpha. it not only makes you look good at first glance (women love the official power uniform), but it improves your self confidence as well.

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  90. Maybe TODAY priests are as you describe them.

    But the old-days priests were clearly alpha motherfuckers. They raked in cash from the slow-witted masses, occupied panty-moistening positions of power and fame within communities, and spent a half hour or so in a darkened room with every nubile young lady in town every week.

    I probably agree that most priests today are seeking a hiding place from the cold, unforgiving sexual marketplace. But RESPECT those that came before them, because GUARANTEED you are littered with strands of their DNA.

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  91. Have you visited http://rabbiwatch.com/ ?

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  92. Dedrick — you make an assumption error, one common to women and many Alphas. That infrastructure just magically appears, does not need maintenance, and regular replacement. That in order to create virtual reality and the like, you you need just sprinkle nerds and it appears like magic.

    Without constant repair and maintenance and replacement, the power grid, sewage lines, water lines, and the like will fall apart. Doing so takes … money. Which requires wealth generation. Which in turn requires, broad based economic productivity, or valuable resource extraction (your nations sits on an oil field). You don’t get cooperation among men if it’s winner take all for mating with women. And all that stuff just collapses very fast.

    You see where I am going. Look at Russia — once their economy fell apart with the Soviet Command system just collapsing, they had no social capital, lacking a real nuclear family-oriented system, and collapsed. Only a temporary oil price surge saved them and that likely won’t last.

    Nerds won’t have to revolt. Any system that produces a few winners and mostly losers among men will create revolts in and of itself. Russia is a dangerous and violent place. So too Latin America, or much of South Asia.

    Or look closer to home to the Black Community: in 1965 most births were to married mothers, illegitimacy was only 24%, lower than the White rate today (which is 41%). Black men had a respectful, polite attitude towards women, and R&B was filled with songs of romantic longing and cherishing of women, which remain romantic standards today. Compare today with illegitimacy at 90% in the Urban Core and women being compared to basically, animated sex toys.

    Along with that change, came a total loss of all the many benevolent societies that offered life insurance, home insurance, health insurance, loans, real estate brokers, and pretty much anything else the Black Community would need.

    You can’t break the nuclear family and not pay a heavy price: which is basically turning into South Central.

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  93. Freak Show — won’t the race to Alpha-dom just mean there will be more attractive betas? Since in the end, to paraphrase Highlander, there can be only a few. By definition. If women only want the most dominant, does that not imply a race to dominance ala the Black Community? The most poverty-stricken guy in the ghetto can up the dominance route by simply thugging it up.

    whiskey, if u accept roissy’s idea that there exists an absolute standard for beauty then that severely undercuts the ‘red queen’ related meme you’re espousing. i’ve read the red queen, btw, so i know exactly what these guys have been trying in vain to argue. furthermore, if other factors, like height and iq, can also be manipulated, it suggests that there may not be as much difference between alphas and betas as there are today.

    there will still likely be areas of significant difference, like with respect to personality. however, the impact of these differences may be less palpable than they are today. and if not, i suspect that personality might potentially be modulated too if need be (more than just accounted for by iq).

    of course, this entire idea is premised on believing in the genomic basis for a non- trivial amount of behavioral traits. as u can see from this thread, some people read gnxp and half sigma, and such ideas involving this and voluntary genetic engineering aren’t especially far fetched; other people don’t and pretend like this is alice in wonderland stuff- which it likely is to them.

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  94. “furthermore, if other factors, like height and iq, can also be manipulated, it suggests that there may not be as much difference between alphas and betas as there are today.

    there will still likely be areas of significant difference, like with respect to personality. ”

    I guess the ‘Top Dog’ will always be relative.

    In the dark ages, when many people, had suffered illnesses, had scars and missed an arm or an eye, just having decent skin and a bone structure that was not too bad were the makings of a beauty.

    When everyone who can afford it has perfect skin, healthy hair and a healthy figure, looks may matter less, especially if bone structure can also be adapted.
    Motorics, bodylanguage, voice and facial expressions maybe more difficult to change and may start mattering more.
    If people can have longlasting youth and fertility, age will matter a lot less, perhaps older people will be slightly more popular due to experience.
    Personality will also matter more. I guess those people who are very attractive online will become more attractive in real life.

    More time will be spent on learning to be graceful and charming, alluring and seductive. Beauty rituals are reduced because a girl can tweak her gene expression to give you long lashes, hairless legs, bouncy and shiny hair and smooth skin. Women’s magazines will have completely different content. Men don’t have to worry about lack of muscles or hairloss and perhaps not even about height.

    I personally live in a country where practically every twentysomething man is tall enough to be acceptable. Result is that we are a lot less aware of height, it is not usually mentioned. Height alone is not enough to attract a girl and a guy who is slightly shorter than average need not be less popular than a taller guy. I guess the average girl is about 5’8″ here and the average guy 6’2″, if we are talking age 25. Very few men are under 5’9″, but those who are usually do have major problems with the opposite sex, unless they are seriously handsome.

    I guess when the time comes those who are unable to afford ‘boosters’ are going to be double screwed, and not in a good way. The will be both poor and ugly while the haves will be both rich and handsome. The handsome and the pretty, if they failed to develop charm, will find themselves among enormous competition. Those who refuse to boost will become beta, unless they are already near perfection.

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  95. It won’t stop at genetic engineering. Biology will become altogether obsolete. At some point your body will be composed of programmable matter and you can choose to look like whatever you may want to look like. Heck, you may have multiple bodies at your disposal at the same time. I do not venture to make any projections beyond that stage. The rules of the game and the game(s) itself may be totally different. One thing is certain: it’s not going to stop at genetic engineering.

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  96. Whiskey is 100% correct that with current trends, society is more likely to deteriorate than advance.

    Back in the early 1970s or so, when effective artificial insemination was on the horizon, there was talk of legions of women choosing tall med school students’ seed to make babies. Fast-forward to that science fiction year 2008, and you see our dear single moms opting for another kind of sire. Google “I be concubinin’ ” sometime.

    Even if genetic engineering becomes practical (that’s a big IF) it will remain a boutique practice used by a comparative few. For every uber-yuppie couple that makes one, or at most two Superbabies, you will have ten Morlocks making six or seven.

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  97. But the old-days priests were clearly alpha motherfuckers. They raked in cash from the slow-witted masses, occupied panty-moistening positions of power and fame within communities, and spent a half hour or so in a darkened room with every nubile young lady in town every week.

    So true. From the anti-Catholic propaganda of Europe over many centuries, it seems pretty clear that priests in European Catholic countries were anything but celibate. They were celibate like politicians are faithful to their wives.

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  98. Even if genetic engineering becomes practical (that’s a big IF) it will remain a boutique practice used by a comparative few. For every uber-yuppie couple that makes one, or at most two Superbabies, you will have ten Morlocks making six or seven.

    godless capitalist once commented about this possibility in gnxp. basically, look at abortion. it was initially expensive but more than just the rich desired it. so, what happened? in a modern democracy like ours, the poor mobilized to force politicians to make it available to them via subsidies. if genetic engineering comes to real fruition (say sometime this century), there is no way it will be relegated to just the rich in modern democracies. even countries like china won’t be able to ignore the wishes of the masses forever. basically, the poor and even middle class will mobilize to demand access to it at non- exorbitant prices, just like with abortion. i don’t disagree that initially it will start with the rich as a boutique service, however. yet, it won’t remain boutique for long.

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  99. Well, maybe. However, abortion is not a procedure that requires a great deal of technical sophistication or skill to perform; genetic engineering is.

    John Derbyshire recently wrote a piece that was very sceptical of genetic engineering becoming ubiquitous, at least in the forseeable future, and his arguments made sense to me, a layman with only a limited interest in this area.

    One of Derbyshire’s objections was that genetic engineering entails tinkering with DNA, which carries a huge risk of genetic damage. When you screw up with mice, you toss them into Medical Waste. But with a human? especially if the damage is not initially apparent?

    (Right now I’m picturing the early Robocop prototypes gone wrong)

    Anyway, he made several arguments that sounded very persuasive, but I don’t recall them now.

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  100. John Derbyshire recently wrote a piece that was very sceptical of genetic engineering becoming ubiquitous, at least in the forseeable future…

    i’ve commented that voluntary eugenics might become widely available in 1-200 yrs. guys like markku jumped all over me as being way too conservative in my prediction. he’s probably right. there are areas of math/science that will work synergistically to greatly enhance genetic engineering in ways we can’t completely fathom, like exponentially faster cpu speeds. as an example, the fastest way to sequence a protein decades ago relied on manual labor and test tubes. the fastest way now is to just let a computer quickly do it. either way, 100 yrs or 200 yrs, this is still a blip on the vast human time scale. sometime this millennium, humanity will ascend to the next evolutionary level through voluntary eugenics and not look back.

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  101. “Roissy believes priests should be allowed to marry.”

    Amen. Didn’t Freud pretty much prove that repression leads to all kinds of perversion? They’re so fucked up.

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  102. One of Derbyshire’s objections was that genetic engineering entails tinkering with DNA, which carries a huge risk of genetic damage. When you screw up with mice, you toss them into Medical Waste. But with a human? especially if the damage is not initially apparent?

    Eugenics can be done succesfully on a cruder level than detailed genetic engineering: by taking a large number of gametes, reading their genomes, and choosing the combination deemed best of the available ones, for instance.

    Frankly, I don’t think tinkering with genes with the aim of turning uglies into beauties is ever going to become widespread a practice. The risks will be too great. Few people are going to be willing to put their unborn children in that serious a jeopardy. Secondly, manipulating genes or expression thereof in adults is not going to be dramatically effective. Genetics are simply not powerful and precise enough a tool to achieve the desired results quickly, cheaply, safely, and reliably enough. By the time there is enough computing power and sophisticated enough models to simulate growth and development from genetic information with high enough accuracy, more straightforward and effective methods will exist.

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  103. Embryo selection sounds more plausible, but all you have to work with there is the parents’ genetic material.

    In which case I can see it being used to screen out of undesirable traits (alzheimers, diabetes, etc.) than as an actively eugenic method of promoting “supertraits.”

    And again, no matter how cheap and available embryo screening will be, the left half of the bell curve is as likely to use it as low class single moms are to use tall med school students’ seed, widely available in fertility clinics today.

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  104. on September 16, 2008 at 4:03 pm Usually Lurking

    Dedrick — you make an assumption error, one common to women and many Alphas. That infrastructure just magically appears, does not need maintenance, and regular replacement. That in order to create virtual reality and the like, you you need just sprinkle nerds and it appears like magic.

    Without constant repair and maintenance and replacement, the power grid, sewage lines, water lines, and the like will fall apart. Doing so takes … money. Which requires wealth generation. Which in turn requires, broad based economic productivity, or valuable resource extraction (your nations sits on an oil field).

    Whiskey, good for you. I have been saying this for a long time now.

    Productive societies are productive for a reason. If you were to take all the artists and athletes and put them in one place and all of the engineers and scientists in another place, you can be damn sure that one society would function and the other would fail.

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  105. Sara 102–

    Freud. Freud never proved anything whatsoever. He dreampt up endless amounts of stuff based upon his client statum of upper middle class very early 20th century Viennese women, most of whom were also Jewish. He was indeed brilliant however. A brilliant introspective speculator.

    Is there something to the idea of the unconscious or only partly conscious mind? Sure. Is there something to the notion of primitive emotions and drives, with a societally mediated sense of morality and order (superego) sitting on top in our conscious and language heavy brain functions, trying to play traffic cop and “make decisions” (ego). Sure, that’s one analogy, or way of putting it.

    What Freud said that was new wasn’t true (penis envy as a universal; oedipal conflicts, etc.); what Freud said that was true wasn’t new (repressed thoughts; unconscious mind, etc.

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  106. freak show 101–

    It seems to me to be patently obvious that it’s utter folly to rely upon some future hopes for genetic engineering to serve as some deus ex machina to save us from our current societal misdirections.

    Just where genetic engineering is going to go anytime soon is extremely hard to predict. One of the last things it would do would be some social transformation in a kinder and gentler direction. The first tendencies if effective would tend in the opposite direction, a gattica direction of super people who are even more genetically gifted than can be found now at the right side of various human trait bell curves.

    Further, Derbyshire, one of our fearless and original thinkers if more than a little dour in his particular case, is doubtless right about the supreme challenges that disposing of laboratory mistakes makes in the human case, especially as he said, when the mistakes are subtle enough at the gestation phase to not become apparent until say language capable childhood. Dispose and start over?

    It soon becomes obvious that a fascistic social arrangement will be far better able to go through trial and error in this field than a post Christian one. Are you also thinking China?

    No, nothing is going to save us from the need to do the hard work necessary to reign in and transform feminism in this land of it’s extremity.

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  107. I definitely agree that the priesthood became an option for a lot of men (esp. several decades ago when stigmas were greater).

    A former priest (and now VERY out gay man) was a regular at the bar I went to during college. He said that he felt so ashamed of his sexuality that he went into the priesthood as a way to avoid it alltogether. Eventually he embraced who he really is came out of the closet and the frock.

    However, putting gays in the same category as pedophiles is a major error. Those with pedophilic urges may have entered the priesthood for similar reasons as gays (shame and guilt, trying to avoid their urges), but that does NOT make them one and the same. The former prey on children; the latter are attracted to consenting adults.

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  108. Quick Note: I considered the priesthood because I have zero chance of permanently maintaining a woman who meets my sexual needs, but I declined since I’m pro-choice, not gay, and love kids, and I’m much too materialistic and wedded to masturbation and porn.

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  109. 106 dougjnn

    Here’s are quotes that say it better than I can.

    With Freud a new kind of awareness has dawned on man: that suppression is wrong, that suppression brings with it nothing but self-pity and anguish. If a man fights with himself he can only ruin and destroy himself. ….through denial and suppression of his natural instincts and emotions, man became suicidal and killed himself.

    The old religions taught suppression as the way to God. Man was supposed to suppress everything-his sex, his anger, his greed, his attachments-and then alone would he find his soul, would he attain to God. This war of man against himself has continued long enough.

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  110. Sara 110–

    This war of man against himself has continued long enough.

    You’re right, Freud has come to stand for that strain of thought, which has long since triumphed by and large. (There are always people who want to take it further, and other people who remain “anally retentive” and need for balance sake to “take it further” than they have.)

    I don’t think it’s really very dependent on Freud or his particular theories or insights. But he does stand for that.

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  111. Whiskey: I don’t think infrastructure magically appears at all. People will build and maintain infrastructure because they get paid to do it, just like they do now.

    You don’t get cooperation among men if it’s winner take all for mating with women. And all that stuff just collapses very fast.

    You get cooperation via markets because each man finds it in his self interest to exchange his labor or services for something in return.

    What exactly is your claim regarding this winner take all for mating with women stuff? It’s obviously not winner take all right now. Betas have girlfriends and wives aplenty. The wives/gfs may cheat with alphas or prefer alphas, but generally betas are still getting girls.

    Yyou seem to be claiming that this is going to fundamentally shift soon, and that soon it will become much harder for betas to even enjoy the limited success they have now? Why? Can you clarify exactly what you’re predicting and by when you think it will happen?

    Regarding Russia: their economy sucks in large part because of the lack of the rule of law there, lack of stable property rights, corruption, etc. When had a capitalist economy with a strong rule of law and stable property rights ever had a significant group of ‘betas’ refuse to partake in the economy because they were upset about their skills with women?

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  112. Simple question all: Why is it better to be an Alpha than a Beta?

    More aggressive men do get more sexual attention and obviously have more choices, but they fight and die more; and, frankly, there’s just so few of them that surely it must suck to be one. In nature, Alpha men seem to exist soley to serve Beta men (and women) by securing and advancing civilization for Beta settlement. They are so expendable that, in fact, when their utility is over and their excessive aggressiveness begins to cost rather than produce, most are routed to prisons, executed, or, on the front lines where they can act as front fodder for munitions launched by the Alpha enemy. I never saw a Alpha soldier unhappy to be where he was with his M16 and in his Marine fatigues talking about how the enemy was going to get their asses whooped – so it kinda works out for everyone.

    There are so many Betas that wind up with great women and all the sex they can handle without all the grief and risk of being Alpha, the odds are good that if you choose to be a Beta rather than are merely regulated by social dynamics, you’d be making the better choice, and, pay very little in terms of sexual success and choice in the process.

    Being Alpha is like a jetliner crash. There are few of them but it’s dramatic and newsworthy any time there is. Just as it’s more the dread factor than real substance with the rare plane crash, there seems to be this awe perception over the status of being an Alpha. It’s rare to be one in most groups, but everyone automatically accepts the premise that it is the stronger, better, status because, occasionally, the chicks an Alpha sleeps with are hotter. That’s not a superior genetic makeup, that’s giving the worker a bone and is clearly *inferior* – speaking in strict Alpha/Beta terms.

    The best people are Betas who become a little more like Alpha versions of themselves, and vice versa, but it bothers me that the premise of this entire blog fails to acknowledge that.

    Dave

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  113. “The best people are Betas who become a little more like Alpha versions of themselves, and vice versa, but it bothers me that the premise of this entire blog fails to acknowledge that.”

    That is truly an excellent point, I enjoyed your whole post to be honest.

    Most of the men who die before 30 had a high level of testosterone and a low level of restraint. Men who tooks big risks and lost their lives or became invalids while Betas were safe and warm in their beds with their wifes.

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  114. http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/110329.html
    Published: 09/11/2008
    Threats forced a prominent psychologist to resign from a task force on sexual abuse in the Orthodox Jewish community.

    Dr. Benzion Twerski, who is also an Orthodox rabbi, resigned after receiving the threats, The New York Jewish Week reported. The task force had been established recently by New York state Assemblyman Dov Hikind.

    According to a statement published on the Orthodox Web site Vos Iz Neias, Twerski quit out of fear for his family.

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