Dodged The Same Bullet Twice

Many years ago, a girl I had been dating once offered to marry me, and I once offered to marry a girl I had been dating… within the same relationship.  This is possible because the two events happened a year apart.  She was quite a looker; tall, slender, exotically sculpted face… and an accent that directly aroused me via soundwave.  After a few months of dating, she probed to see if I was ready to marry her (probing is the female equivalent of asking).  But I was a rake and still intrigued by the pursuit of the fresh notch, so I hemmed and hawed and strung her along and generally treated her as an accessory.

Naturally, my complete indifference to her needs made her fall deeper in love with me.  The more she clinged, the more I went to bars without her to try and supplement my relationship with sexual variety.  The harder I pushed, the stronger she pulled.  It did not help that when we went out together other women paid more attention to me.  My girlfriend had become the perfect pickup prop.

Unless you are so deeply in love with your girlfriend that all other attractive women become abstract entities to you, you will find that having her accompany you on nights out is tantamount to psychological torture.  You will get so much more flirting from women than you would have as a single man, and yet you will be able to do nothing about it.  It’s like a thirsty man in the desert with one glass of lukewarm puddlewater to quench himself stumbling across an electrified cooler full of ice cold sodas and beer.

So the struggle in her was apparent.  Her logical brain was telling her to leave me, while her emotions were running red hot to stay.  It went on like this for another year, until the overtightening of reality finally started to strip the threading holding us together.  She attempted escape a couple of times, but the aloofness was strong in me, foiling her intentions.

Lesson One:  If you want to keep a girl around, act like you don’t mind if she’s not around.  It helps to really feel this way.

Then the fates turned.  It is only when a woman makes herself scarce that I want more of her.  As she gradually, painfully extricated herself from the relationship I became drawn to her in a way I hadn’t felt since the first week of new lovers sex.  The gears had shifted and were now grinding in the opposite direction.  I stopped hitting on other women.  I proactively suggested progressively more sophisticated and romantic dates and I began paying her way every time.  Phone calls increased.  Declarations of love poured forth.  I didn’t realize at the time how my actions were poisoning the well.  I just thought “Hey, she once wanted to marry me, so she’ll welcome my professions of love now.”

Lesson Two:  If you want a girl to fall out of love with you, shower her with love.

Unsurprisingly, she grew cold and distant.  The first warning sign was the extra time it took her to return my phone calls.  The last warning sign was her saying “No, I don’t love you.”  When my runaway emotions had crescendoed and I finally told her I wanted to marry her, she tsked and rolled her eyes.

The afternoon before the breakup we had the best sex ever.  She orgasmed freely.  There is something about breakup sex that brings out the animal in women.  Perhaps it is the only time they can completely sever their emotions from sex and just let their vaginas take over with a man they trust.  Or maybe it’s a last hurrah.  I felt used for my body.

So that is how you have two marriage proposals in one relationship that don’t actually lead to marriage.

The breakup was painful but in retrospect it turned out to be a blessing in disguise.  I went on to many exciting adventures with women that I would have regretted missing out on if I had closed off the option by marrying my honey-voiced siren.

Lesson Three:  When you really love a woman it will be A to B.  Not A to D to B to C.





Comments


  1. on October 25, 2007 at 2:14 pm instantExcitement

    This is of course the ultimate game. The transition to keeping a girl and showing affection, and still keeping control is what the women wants, and what a guy in a relationship would want. It’s amazing how easy it is to fix relationship problems by simply avoiding or ignoring the girl.

    I accidentally discovered a great strategy. I was in the midst of a breakup with a long time gf (5+ years) and while still a beta, I hated that she had the upper hand. I decided that the only way I would get over things is if I got her to admit she loved me, that she still was very into me, and that she more physically attracted to me than anyone else. Once I got her to admit to those things, I told for her own good that I would stop talking to her.

    Long story short, I stumbled upon the most basic rule of seduction and the game, you can’t let the women control the situation, and once I stopped calling, and declared that I would not pick up her calls, she called 3-6 times a day with another couple of emails.

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  2. Yes, yes, do this all you want. It’ll work, I have no doubt of it, if by “work” you mean keeping your women in a frenzy of sexual anxiety and distress.

    What it will not do is help you to be happy in love, or to build a loving marriage. In fact, it will ruin you for either. And if you ever do go on to marry a woman whom you have treated in this fashion, your lives together will be Hell.

    My dear Sirs, you have set yourselves up to be bachelors forever. Only as you get older, fewer women will want you, and the ones who do will be older too. Warren Beatty got away with it, but he was rich and famous, and his job allowed him to meet hundreds of pretty young actresses. Hugh Hefner, on the other hand, is surely not an inspirational model…

    Liked by 1 person


  3. Ha ha ha, you know I’m loving the title of this post. Please sir what’s your motivation? You learned, right? What doesn’t kill….. Well played Roissy… well played.

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  4. this explains a lot, roissy.

    you’re completely wrong about lesson two. you just showered her with love too late. she was probably hurt and had emotionally moved on by then, honey. you boys just don’t realize that timing is everything. you weren’t ready to settle down, and your last attempts to hold onto her were just too late.

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  5. on October 25, 2007 at 3:34 pm mr. pilkington

    Outstanding post Roissy. It sounds counterintuitive for a man to remain aloof, and indifferent with a woman he loves but for a relationship to truly succeed, he must continue to remain a challenge. Going back to your story, I wonder if another motivation for her to stay with you as long as she did was because she wasn’t sure it was really going to hurt you if she left. Once you made your declarations of love and marriage she “suddenly” got the strength to leave.

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  6. A mini-lesson here applies to an area in which many men are clueless: how to handle an argument with a woman. When your wife/girlfriend is pissed off at you, be it for rational or hormonal reasons, pull back. Don’t talk to her, don’t touch her.

    She’ll calm down and will be grateful to you for not smothering her at the time when she “hated” you and for not letting her manipulate you emotionally.

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  7. The girl loved you more than you did her and, when she began to move on, you took over the role as “the one who loves the most.” Had you been on the same page from the beginning, your relationship may have had a different outcome. But, it is what it is, right?

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  8. freckledk–

    The scientific term for what you describe is “dyadic power”, meaning that relationships are just like real estate or any other business deal. Power in them is held by the partner that cares less than the other partner. The reason why one may care less is the availability of other possible relationships or business deals.

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  9. When I was a young man and very well thought of
    I couldn’t ask aught that the ladies denied
    I nibbled their hearts like a handful of raisins
    And I never spoke love but I knew that I lied.
    But I said to myself Ah, they none of them know
    The secret I shelter and savor and save
    I wait for the one who will see through my seeming
    And I’ll know when I love by the way I behave.

    The years drifted over like clouds in the heavens
    The ladies went by me like snow on the wind
    I charmed and I cheated, deceived and dissembled
    And I sinned and I sinned and I sinned and I sinned
    But I said to myself, ah, they none of them see
    There’s part of me pure as the whisk of a wave
    My lady is late but she’ll find I’ve been faithful
    And I’ll know when I love by the way I behave.

    At last came a lady both knowing and tender
    Saying you’re not at all what they take you to be
    I betrayed her before she had quite finished speaking
    And she swallowed cold poison and jumped in the sea
    And I say to myself when there’s time for a word
    As I gracefully grow more debauched and depraved
    Ah, love may be strong, but a habit is stronger
    And I knew when I loved by the way I behaved

    — Peter Beagle

    Sigh. Don’t suppose the lessons are doing any good. Back to work.

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  10. on October 25, 2007 at 4:11 pm startingtoday

    I think your lesson two is a bit off – she didn’t fall out of love with you because you showered you with love; she fell out of love with you before that when she realized she wasn’t “the one.”

    I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just saying that’s how I see it from a woman’s perspective.

    But I’m with FreckledK. It is what it is.

    And you had great breakup sex. It wasn’t all bad!

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  11. “you’re completely wrong about lesson two. you just showered her with love too late. she was probably hurt and had emotionally moved on by then, honey. you boys just don’t realize that timing is everything. you weren’t ready to settle down, and your last attempts to hold onto her were just too late.”

    Wow, shadi. That is so damned true I can’t even choke back my astonishment. It’s exactly how it happened for me.

    I was 15 years old, had fallen deeply and madly and completely in love with a 21 year old who deemed me too young and innocent to be with (and of course the whole age of consent barrier in the U.S.), and so he left me for a string of other women who were obviously worse than me (older, skankier and less attractive). We never got to consummate the relationship when I was filled to the brim with the thrill and rush from the chemistry of new love.

    To this day I still vividly remember the hurt and pain at the abandonment. It no longer becomes a game when one party feels like the game is over. When he came back for me 2 years later with full proclamations of his love, I was happy for a little tiny while, but the more he told me he loved me the more angry I became that he didn’t love me when I needed that love the most.

    There is no happy ending to this story. I’m married to this guy after much fighting and turmoil. I don’t get hot for him whatsoever, even when he is aloof, and maybe especially when he ignores me. He can’t even make me jealous by talking about other women. Yeah, call me damaged goods, because he will never be able make up for his utterly shitty timing. I married him for stability, not for love.

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  12. To Hope:
    I appreciated a lot your story because it reenforces a lot of points whuch femenists like DA like to deny.

    1. That high ages of consent deny human nature and don’t protect teen girls, but rather deny them sexual freedom and even hurt them. I’m convinced that general age of consent should be 16, but 14 if all partners are under 35 and even 12 if all partners are under 21.

    2. That most women’s strongest bonding years are in their midd to late teens (14-22), and that is the ideal age if you want the woman to be your lifetime partner. The bond createdbetween a woman over 22 and a man will never be that strong.

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  13. on October 25, 2007 at 4:46 pm instantExcitement

    Obviously at a certain point, if you’re looking to get married, both parties need to stop playing games and stop wanting to have control. The question, however, is when to do it. If you give up control before she does, you’ll fall into point #2 and then lose the girl. If she does before you, you have to question if it’s real or just a female being very emotional. If you determine she’s really ready to stop playing games, you have to answer if you’re ready for something serious or if you’re just getting lazy or scared. Too many men and women settle, and settling is just laziness and fear.

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  14. I think lesson 3 is the moral of this here story.

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  15. Gannon –

    the reason that women’s strongest “bonding” years are age 14-22 is b/c they are too innocent, naive and trusting to know any better. thanks to inexperience. if you get ’em that young, of course they’ll be “bonded” to your ass, aka worshiping you. they went from daddy to you. they can’t even make rational thoughts of their own yet!

    also, how can you generalize age for women like that? it’s so subjective. women all bloom at various ages.

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  16. “The bond created between a woman over 22 and a man will never be that strong.”

    Part of that has much to do with neurochemistry. During her teenage years a girl’s emotional upheavals are frequent and numerous, due to hormones and biology. It’s cause for much teenage angst and emotion, but it’s also prime time for sexual pairing.

    Look at the graph here:

    http://www.edinformatics.com/news/teenage_brains.htm

    The bonds created during this time are often permanently imprinted since the brain is still, in many ways, changing and forming. They aren’t called the formative years for no reason.

    Just like it’s a lot harder for an adult to perfectly learn a new language than for a child or teenager, it’s harder for an adult to create permanent bonds than children. It’s the reason why high school friendships often tend to invoke deeper feeling in people than mature work friendships.

    It was a mistake that can’t be corrected, but I’m not constantly upset over it. Happiness in adulthood comes in different flavors — and like coffee and dark chocolate, often sweet mixed with bitter.

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  17. Well, A to B is the key here. All relationships have problems, nothing is perfectly perfect. But, there is something to say for a relationship that is work…but gratifying.

    I had given up on relationships, for many reasons: Pain, time, anger, past failures, games etc. I just resigned myself to many ideas that it just wasnt for me. I had been in a great relationship that ended tragically, which caused me to revert…i went through the stages here: the playa, playa; the drunk girl/party girl, the self-destruction, the wounded solider, and finally the, i’ve seen it all, show me something, or keep moving. I never felt the need to discuss these stages with my suitors, they were just thoughts i held in my head…

    I dated around, and liked a few, but found the game always took over…there was a struggle, a word they said that i didnt like, they liked me, i didnt think they were funny…something that told me that it wasnt worth the time….sometimes it was right away…other times it took longer…

    The point here is the final thought: A to B. If something is the prize…you know it. You see your old ways just dont work…you want something more, you linger around…and it happens. To both women and men…no matter their age, ethnicity, etc…sometimes it doenst happen…But you have to make distinguishing marks between the prize, and the poser.

    Does that mean someone is too hard on women, or chicks arent worth an old bum’s boot…maybe? maybe not?

    The truth of the matter is that this blog keeps it real…people are fucked up. They dont care about others, they just want to screw, they blahblahabh…all people…men and women alike. But once you are taken by the prize, you realize that all those other trick ass hoes were worthless, and the men were losers dogs; because you had your eye on the prize…

    It doesnt make them bad, it makes your chemistry strong, and able to withstand the cheating, the richer or poorer, the crazy kids and that other crap that goes on in the world.

    If that chick REALLY loved and wanted to marry him, and spend her life with him….it wouldnt have ended up the way it did…real love doesnt falter..it doesnt seek self-serrving tendencies, it doesnt settle, it fights, and it uplifts…she didnt know what she wanted…but Roissey did…he didnt want her. If she really loved herself, she wouldnt have let the relationship deteriorate…So, he sand bagged…the relationship just wasnt meant to last through time….

    Long story short…i commend these bloggers, because in a way, they are search of the prize…the beauty of that, is that they name the prize…

    Keep up the Keeping in Real…

    This exchange is to keep people from settling for a terrible relationship for the wrong reasons, calling a spade a spade, and giving visibility to all the bullshit in the world.

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  18. Thank you for your support girls!

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  19. “It helps to really feel this way”

    Well, there’s no other way to do it.

    The ones you really want will know you’re in love no matter how good your “aloof” game is. Once they tire of your cute act, they move on. They weren’t really in love with you.

    The ones that want you, you won’t want so much, so your natural aloofness will drive them crazy in love. You can pretty much be yourself and the girl will always fall for it…..but you have to be nice to them sometimes.

    I know because I’m living proof.

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  20. Please explain lesson 3. also i agree, she already moved on. its kinda like what u said some many post back, a few guys never do let the girl know of their interest or if at all they do, they do it too late. its what happened in ur case. physician heal thyself?

    anyway, its interesting, some guys would have professed their love and she would have walked all over them. the game is only good for when u are playing around but better if done widely when u are in one position. that made no sense.

    anyway, i suppse the day would come when un would look back and wonder if u let the one (not in the sense that there is a specific person for you) go.

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  21. This girl sounds like a manipulative game player and not someone good for a stable relationship. She wasn’t worth marrying.

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  22. Reading the comments from the fairer sex on this board, I’m impressed by the degree to which women have swallowed hook, line and sinker our society’s cultural conditioning regarding love and relationships.

    In a happy, healthy relationship the active power struggle has taken a back seat with the man in charge, but it’s still there. Deep down whether she knows it or not, no woman ever wants to feel like she dominates her man.

    I have concluded that all women, no matter their profession or political persuasion, want to submit to a strong man. It’s female nature. It’s best to stay a little aloof and not let her tantrums affect you. She will love you more for it.

    The tragedy of our modern US society is that politically correct social conditioning (i.e. feminism and twisted definitions of “equality”) has tried to change immutable human nature. The consequences are unfortunate. Women are indoctrinated that submission is bad, cooking for and taking care of a man is bad. But this runs against the nature of a woman — she is happiest when she is serving and supporting her man. Following the PC doctrine for happiness, she will end up with a powerful career and big bank account but will be barren and unfulfilled — just look at “Sex and the City”.

    Too many American women at best uncomfortable with their femininity, at worst downright alienated from it. Steve Martin put it best – “Whereas women of many other nationalities wear their sexuality and femininity as an integral part of their being, American women treat their femininity like a power suit. Most of the time they keep it locked away in a closet. forgotten. Only once in a while do they remember it’s there, dust it off and wedge it on like an uncomfortable accessory.” Brilliant, and so true.

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  23. Yes, Azuzuru, no woman ever wants to feel as if she dominates her man. At least I certainly don’t. But it doesn’t follow that the kind of silly game-playing that men advocate so often on this site is a demonstration of any kind of strength other than that which is purely egotistical.

    A man of proper (i.e. appropriate) pride knows to take a stand over some issues; to let others slide because they are of no importance; and to admit when he’s wrong. A man of proper pride has the proper degree of humility, as well. What does the master of “game” know of any of these things? Would he be man enough (to take an example from pop culture) to give Elsa the tickets that will let her leave Casablanca with her husband? Or will he hold on to them to save his own skin, or in the hope of persuading her to join him, or worst of all, out of spite against the other man?

    The kind of strength Roissy describes here is skill at egotistical (that word again) game-playing, whose purpose is to turn everything into a contest in which the person who wins feels good, and the person who loses feels bad. It’s a dangerous way of looking at human relations and sets up unhealthy habits.

    Anyway, I don’t appreciate being lumped in with other “brainwashed” women; nor do I think most women, even strong feminists, are brain-washed in the way you describe. Some of the strongest feminists I know married big hulking macho guys – probably because these were the only ones brave enough to take them on.

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  24. Alias, men need to play the games because we are generally behind the curve, as women mature faster and they learn the emotional manipulation games in high school. Men are still learning them in their 20’s and 30’s. If women used their brains more when looking for a man instead of undefinable things like “chemistry”, men would not need to resort to games. We were given this situation, we didn’t choose it.

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  25. lost:
    Please explain lesson 3.

    real, mutual love is the cuisinart of the heart that slices and dices through drama, pain, and tragicomedy.
    or:
    when it’s right it won’t feel like a fight.

    alias:
    The kind of strength Roissy describes here is skill at egotistical (that word again) game-playing, whose purpose is to turn everything into a contest in which the person who wins feels good, and the person who loses feels bad.

    no, no, no this won’t do.
    the goal is for both people to feel good.
    the game is a midwife i use to help bring us closer to that nirvana.
    if you want to argue against the services of the mating midwife, you’ll have to convince me that reality isn’t what my lying eyes see.

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  26. So true, this post. Amazing how I’ve thought the same things before but couldn’t put them in writing as our Roissy has:
    – I once took a girl to Miami, she was really good-looking but just imagine how I felt among the crowd of attractive girls checking me out… when my friend called me to ask how it’s going, it happened the pool bar I was at played Shakira’s song “La Tortura” so I just put the phone to the speaker 😉
    – Another girl, the day before she told me she wanted to break up, she came over and we had the wildest sex, then next day she said we’re thru; I thought damn, is breakup sex always this hot? I should have knows she had something on her mind…
    Can’t comment much on the rest, as I’ve never proposed and been rejected, but I guess it does go like that… Thumbs up, Roissy!

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  27. Hi Alias. You write:

    “Some of the strongest feminists I know married big hulking macho guys – probably because these were the only ones brave enough to take them on.”

    That is *exactly* my point. Although she will never admit it, even a dyed-in-the-wool feminist has a deep desire to be dominated and owned by her man. It’s the nature of women. Show me a prominent feminist’s husband, and I’ll show you i) you a guy who makes more money and is more powerful than she is, or ii) a guy who is utterly dominated by her, whom she despises for his weakness.

    Roissy is right — when done properly, gaming is a win-win. The woman feels good, the man feels good. And women feel happiest when their man is strong and leads her to new emotional highs. Men are the leaders in relationships, women the followers. Don’t fight it — it’s the way our species evolved.

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  28. Break up sex makes no evolutionary sense for the woman.

    If women have evolved the emotional circuitry that gives them last minute resistance — stemming from the fear that a man she has sex with may leave her (which would have disastrous consequences for her in a tribal society since pregnancy would leave her in a highly vulnerable state if the man didn’t provide for her) — wouldn’t that same emotional circuitry kick in to prevent her from having sex with a guy she fully intends to break up with?

    The above assumes that evolutionary psychology is true and we’ve inherited our emotional circuitry from an ancient tribal society that no longer exists – before contraceptives, abortion, etc.

    Can somebody explain this?

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  29. Azuzuru, I don’t know if you read my post very carefully. I wasn’t wholly disagreeing with you. One reason I’m an advocate of women choosing strong men is that choosing those who are too passive will land a woman with a burden for life, a man who doesn’t shoulder his weight in marriage.
    What I was disputing is whether the kind of games advocated here are really a show of strength. Continue to insist on always coming out the winner in every verbal or emotional contest with a mate and you will wreck your relationship. The kind of man who does this is not a strong man; he’s a spoiled narcissist. Abusive men often come from this category: angry “betas” who regard it as an insult when dinner isn’t ready on time and yell at or hit their wives for it.

    Roissy, if the goal of ‘game’ is really to ensure that both parties feel good, I have nothing against it. A little resistance and play, and the suggestion that you can’t be won too easily, is both fun and necessary, for both sexes. The kind of situation you were describing with your ex-girlfriend isn’t that kind of play, however: it’s a neurotic power struggle. When you find yourself in that situation, or rather when you become aware that you are in it, the smart choice isn’t to “play it cool”, it’s to drop out. Because one you’ve awakened each other’s neuroses, it’s too late to build a good or happy love or even a fun fling.

    Much of what you say about relations between the sexes is insightful; OTOH some of your advice is sound very unlikely to lead to much happiness for the man who practises it. It’s of the “I’d rather win than be happy” type.

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  30. Regarding “game” — it’s not a word I use. In fact, I don’t really have my own word for this, but the signified is an approach to screening, attracting and keeping a woman with the ultimate goal being a long and happy marriage.

    “Game” or whatever it’s called, properly understood is the equivalent of shaving, bathing, and chewing food with your mouth closed. In essence, without it a man is just raw material.

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  31. Delete “sound” from my post #29, above.

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  32. skeletor:
    Break up sex makes no evolutionary sense for the woman.

    true, but contraceptives short circuit the emotional wiring. my theory is that breakup sex is completely devoid of emotion for women so they are able to logically enjoy the moment knowing the condom or pill is there to protect them from pregnancy.

    alias:
    What I was disputing is whether the kind of games advocated here are really a show of strength.

    it’s not game so much as a state of mind. when one person is less invested in the relationship than the other, it’s inevitable that drama will ensue. inner strength is the ability to withstand this emotional buffeting.

    Continue to insist on always coming out the winner in every verbal or emotional contest with a mate and you will wreck your relationship.

    it’s not about coming out a winner, it’s about not swaying like a reed in the wind. a strong man won’t let himself get mired in the head game maelstroms that girls will often throw out there to test his loyalty and commitment.

    The kind of man who does this is not a strong man; he’s a spoiled narcissist.

    narcissism and strength are not mutually incompatible.

    Abusive men often come from this category: angry “betas” who regard it as an insult when dinner isn’t ready on time and yell at or hit their wives for it.

    strawman.

    The kind of situation you were describing with your ex-girlfriend isn’t that kind of play, however: it’s a neurotic power struggle.

    no.
    neither of us was intentionally angling for power. we were blindly following our emotions, and the result was an unintentional power play. that is why it is so important for a man to understand the foreign land that is a woman’s mental landscape. once he knows what makes women tick, he can give her what she wants and, at the same time, give himself what he wants.

    When you find yourself in that situation, or rather when you become aware that you are in it, the smart choice isn’t to “play it cool”, it’s to drop out.

    what if the sex is still great?

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  33. The best sex doesn’t last 24/7, year in and year out. Marriage does. So do “long term relationships”. Even short term ones can come to seem rather long if the time between bedroom sessions is spent feeling sick to your stomach with anxiety.

    The abuse scenario I sketched out wasn’t really a straw man. Things like that do happen with nutty, insecure men who have strange ideas about what it means to be a real man. The trouble is that many men these days have no idea what that word can mean. And what ideas they do have often come from movies like Fight Club, which analysed the problem nicely but offered a silly solution for it.

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  34. The trouble is that many men these days have no idea what that word can mean.

    i suspect your definition of manliness is “whatever serves my own interests.”

    And what ideas they do have often come from movies like Fight Club, which analysed the problem nicely but offered a silly solution for it.

    it may have been a silly solution from society’s perspective, but then i was never one to lap up the shit of the conformist lickspittles.
    the most fun i can have in a lab is to smash the glassware.
    it’s a male thing. you wouldn’t understand.

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  35. ‘”i suspect your definition of manliness is “whatever serves my own interests.”’

    Not fair. Not true, either, which is more important. I like the wrong kind of men: irresponsible light-hearted Dodgers who always turn out to be alcoholics or addicts, who are impossible to reform. My ideals thus can’t really serve my interests. Anyway when it comes to ordinary male foibles I’m pretty lenient.

    I’m thinking of the kinds of qualities that make good leaders, husbands, fathers. The ideal I have in mind is probably unattainable, but it helps to have, at least, worthy ideals.

    Oh, and if you want to talk about my interests: I’ve dated so many men who were abandoned by their fathers and who grew up to be charming messes that it started me thinking about where they all come from. (And yes, why they were all interested in me.)

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  36. Hi Alias Clio,

    Your exchange with Roissy piqued my interest. What, indeed, is your definition of a “real man”?

    Earlier in this thread you suggested that Humphrey Bogart in “Casablanca” was a real man because he sacrificed his own escape from the Nazis to help Elsa and her husband get away. It seems you’re suggesting that a “real man” is one who elevates the woman’s interests above his own or, in Roissy’s words “whatever serves [your] own interests.” Just curious. 😉

    Love and kisses,
    Azuzuru

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  37. No. Helping Elsa escape wasn’t something Rick did for Elsa. If you recall, he did it for her husband, because the husband was a Nazi fighter. He wasn’t really in imminent danger from the Nazis himself, or at least so the film made it appear. (I always wondered about what would have happened to him in the end – but the police in Casablanca were shown to be so corrupt that he was probably safe from them.)

    Originally Rick planned to use the tickets not to escape the Nazis, but to run away with Elsa. She and her husband were, I think, only escaping in that they were leaving behind the immediate threat in Casablanca. They planned to go back to their rescue work as soon as the hunt for them died down. Recall Rick’s speech about how Victor Laszlo (I think that was the husband’s name) needed his wife in order to be able to do his work.

    Rick went from being a selfish man who lived only to protect himself (“I stick my neck out for no man”), to being an altruist. That’s what I meant about being a real man – not one, in other words, who would sacrifice himself for a woman, but for the sake of doing the right thing.

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  38. I’m pretty sure your “showering with love” didn’t drive her away. What if she just figured that if you were willing to act like a jerk, for an extended period of time, then she had no reason to trust this sudden “shower,” which only showed up when she pulled away? She would have had to spend the rest of the relationship pushing you away, or risk a return to the being-treated-like-dirt scenario. That’s not worth the hassle. Once you’ve convinced a girl you’re a cad – and it sounds like you did a pretty good job there – she’s generally very unlikely to believe you when you try to keep her. If she’s convinced herself to leave, and taken steps, she’s not going to backslide just because you pay for a few dates.

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  39. “showering with love” is exactly what drove her away. Before that, he was a challenge to her. Afterwards, he no longer was.

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  40. No. 38 and 39: you’re both partly right, and partly wrong. It’s human and feminine to want a man who is strong enough to stand up to you, true; it’s also human and feminine to want an alpha male who is seen as a catch: he has a high-status job; he has no trouble “scoring” women; if he’s alone much it’s because he chooses to be; etc. But once he has made you feel special by seeming interested in only you, you want things to stay that way. If he changes, and becomes suddenly aloof, yes, he becomes a challenge again, but not in a good way. No woman wants a man who melts in a puddle at her feet for her, but that doesn’t mean she wants one who plays push-me-pull-you, either.

    I repeat: it’s only neurotic women who stick around for this kind of treatment. Those who are unsure of themselves, afraid that they don’t really deserve to be loved, anxious to prove to themselves that they can make bad relationships work, probably as a result of bad parenting. A smart woman knows that if a man starts losing interest, she ought to walk away, and stay away.

    And for men, the same is true in reverse. If you find you start wanting a woman again only once she has left you, then you probably have similar “issues” of your own. The thing to do then is stand back, take stock, and tell yourself that if you lost interest once, there was probably a good reason. Do NOT run after her, even if you’re convinced you really want her. And even if you think you might stand a chance of winning her back again. Because if you do succeed, you’ll find you’ve let yourself in for a pattern of passion followed by rejection followed by misery and anxiety. You may get some sort of perverse enjoyment out of living that way – but if so, that too is a mark of neurosis and unfinished childhood business.

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  41. I know a girl who fits your middle paragraph in 40 to a tee. Pretty good looking, always attracted quality guys, for whom she showed contempt as soon as they started liking her. The she met a guy who told her “fuck you” about four times during their first phone conversation. That was ten years ago. She’s still with him and has two of his bastard children.

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  42. Clio – agreed. The premise of No. 39 was that the relationship was doomed from the beginning.

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  43. The she met a guy who told her “fuck you” about four times during their first phone conversation.

    15 minutes into the first date with the girl in this story i told her “i’m not relationship material. i value my freedom and independence too much.”

    2 years of hot sex and hotter drama followed.

    long after the breakup i heard through a mutual friend that she had said she wanted to run when she heard those words.

    in girlspeak, run = can’t help myself around you.

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  44. “Two years of hot sex and hotter drama followed”: Yes, well, that’s a certain sign of neurosis, Roissy, on both your parts, though she was certainly worse than you, since you spoke up about your intentions soon. I call this kind of situation “the irresistible force meets the immoveable object”. The thing is, both parties want to be the irresistible force and the immoveable object at the same time.

    It’s not that she was moved by your alpha-ness so much as that she wanted to put her own alphaness to the test. She didn’t give in when you tried to go back to her because she had learned better, perhaps. Or the moment had passed and she’d gotten over you. But it’s not because you gave up your aloofness.

    I recently bowed out of a situation that looked as if it were likely to end up in that kind of mess. Once I might have stayed on out of the temptation to be The One who succeeds where all the other women failed, but now I know better. Nothing but the worst kind of unhappiness – the kind that brings out the worst in you – can come from it.

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  45. 15 minutes into the first date with the girl in this story i told her “i’m not relationship material. i value my freedom and independence too much.”
    2 years of hot sex and hotter drama followed.

    What you told her was in a whole different league from “fuck you.” A normal girl is intrigued by a tough-to-lasso-in badboy. A girl who chases after a guy who tells her F.U. has problems.

    In another note, I remember I once met a girl on a blind date…. met at the Farragut North Starbucks…. she walked in, I was disappointed, she was delighted. (So I don’t come off as a braggard – opposite sets of reactions have happened to me as well).

    Anyway, we walked to a bar near DuPont Cirlce, I kicked up my feet, lit a cigarette (I quit since then), and started bullshitting about art (she was an academic type), this, that, not giving a crap about how I come off to her…. My somewhat out-of-character nonchalance made a profound impression on her…. and now I am a proud member of the men-who-once-had-a-psycho-stalker-chick-fall-madly-in-love-with-them-and-threaten-suicide-club.

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  46. on November 2, 2007 at 5:37 am planetary watson

    I’m thinking of the kinds of qualities that make good leaders, husbands, fathers.

    No, you’re thinking of the kinds of qualities that are common among followers, yes men, and cubicle drones.

    Said qualities mainly consist of an unseemly tendency to obey female rules: societal directives that push men towards a life of self-abnegating servility.

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  47. on November 2, 2007 at 5:41 am Todd Fletcher

    Nice. An entire thread of people, none of whom claims to be in a lasting relationship, arguing heatedly about the key to a lasting relationship. Priceless.

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  48. Sigh. One major problem is — and a good chunk of why you’re talking past each other, I suspect — y’all keep insisting on using terms like, “all men,” and “no woman.” That’s almost always code for *you* wouldn’t do x, or *you* always want *x*.

    From a great article in Slate some years back:

    “Before Alfred Kinsey took up human sexuality, he studied wasps–thousands and thousands of them, whose bodies he minutely examined. Yet when asked what he could say about The Wasp, he replied that he hadn’t really seen enough specimens to generalize.”

    *^*^*

    “It’s a male thing. You wouldn’t understand.”

    No, it’s a *you* thing. And if I can’t understand, it’s because you’re not very good at persuading people to understand, and you’re trying to turn that bug into a feature.

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  49. Roissy’s description of the dating game is simply socio-biology 101 and is, therefor, entirely predictive.

    Clio’s description of the ideal relationship is certainly desirable, but does not fit with my observations and understanding of human socio-biology.

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  50. Also, the socio-biological influence over behavior varies between different groups. The East Asians are the least socio-biological in their dating games. Other groups are a lot more. Caucasions seem to be somewhere in the middle.

    The guys who do actually want to have a real long-term relationship free of all of the socio-biological crap that Roissy describes would do best with East Asian women (Japanese, Chinese, etc.). They seem to be much less into this socio-biological game, as compared to white, black, or hispanic women.

    This stuff is actually old hat. Phillip Ruston and others have been talking about this stuff for decades.

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  51. Alias-Clio says it best on this thread. (And I’m a guy, pretty-happily-married, with the three kids I dreamed of.) As many commenters have pointed out, so much of the Dance turns on behavior that’s unlikely to lead to the outcomes that we think we desire.

    Harville Hendrix supposes that we leave childhood with some business still unfinished. As adults, we look to our partners to resolve these old issues. Two people, each doing that, and a relationship gets complicated. Things sometimes turn out well. Often, though, we don’t see the connection between our feelings for another (longing, eros, fascination, anger) and what we needed to get from our parents–often, the opposite-sex parent.

    Hendrix has a website that looks overly commercial, but his first book “Getting the Love You Want” talked about these matters in a way that was helpful to me.

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  52. I remember when I was a youngster just like Roissy, engaging in just these sorts of behaviors. Twenty years and one failed marriage later, I realized what I wanted wasn’t what I was chasing. Some day, he may learn that lesson, too.

    But the interesting part of this site is the continuing discussion of what a “man” is. Whether or not Roissy truly believes his frat boy persona is the ideal man is something only he can answer, but the oh-so-solicitous alpha of Alias’ dreams (people are addicts because they’re bored, Alias; try to excite them!) isn’t found much in nature. I notice, however, there’s NO real discussion of what a true “woman” should be! Is she the cooking and cleaning Playboy centerfold of Roissy’s wettest dream, or the polymathic, hormonally-balanced Uberchick that Alias would like us to believe exists?

    Before insulting my “manhood” Roissy, feel free to come up to Boston North Fitness in Saugus, MA and try to spot me when I’m benching 400+. Not bad for a 49-year old, huh? In fact, I met my girlfriend (3+ years) while doing cardio; we were both reading Bourdain’s Kitchen Confidential. We are the true odd couple. I’m the prototype that you see on ESPN’s the World’s Strongest Man series-5′ 11″, 280 lbs. with a face-shaped face (girl says I’m a burly George Clooney, bless her). She’s the antithesis of the juggy girls I always dated and/or married-5′ 10″, 125 lbs., great arms, legs and shoulders from her days as a swimmer in school and current hard work at the gym. My theory on what makes us work is that we were friends before we were lovers. We just sort of grew closer through shared interests and worldviews that eventually we just ended up in bed.

    Because of past bad dating experiences, she intentionally came off as aloof and remote, like a lot of beautiful women. I live by the John Mellencamp line-ain’t good lookin’ but I ain’t shy, and it just so happened that our personalities clicked. She makes more money than me, which I’ve been told should bother me. She’ll be the first to tell you that I’m more intelligent and well-read. She’s way better looking, I’m way better with people. For whatever reason, it just works, and we’ll be marrying in July (and hoping that second marriage is NOT just the triumph of hope over experience!).

    Love, to paraphrase Lennon, is what happens while you’re looking somewhere else!

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  53. Hey Brutus, lots of discussion here on what makes the ideal woman: beauty, youth, slenderness, beauty, more youth, femininity, and beauty. That’s it. That’s all. Oh, and “femininity” means being conservative sexually (except when it comes to doing whatever a man wants in bed, not before but not too long after the third date), affectionate, uncritical, unambitious, undemanding, old-fashioned but quick to pay your own way on the first few dates, and eager to have children before the age of twenty-five with a man up to 15 years older than yourself.

    Well, it’s not an unattainable ideal, I suppose, from a man’s point of view, although from a woman’s perspective it’s beyond the reach of effort and will power, because, except for the slenderness, the essential qualities are of the kind one is either born with, or not.

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  54. Heh-heh. All very theoretical to me. I wonder if this ‘I don’t care about you’ behavior only works above a certain level of alpha-ness, though…when I started ignoring girls they disappeared pretty fast.

    Liked by 1 person


  55. I do think you guys are talking past each other, but Clio has a more subtle, accurate and realistic view of human relationships than the original poster does, that’s for sure.

    Warren

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  56. No worries, Clio, we’re travelling the same road!

    How much time can one spend bumping slippery mucus membranes to mutual delight? Not nearly as much time as a couple has to spend interacting non-coitally (though not really what Roissy is looking for in the first place). As I said, the fact that we enjoy each other’s company outside the bedroom is what makes it special (that sound you hear is Roissy gagging). Up here in the Northeast, I think the creative male and careerist female relationship has some real traction; I get sick of listening to the my artsy coworkers’ narrow blathering, as does my fiancee’ in her ratracing environment.

    I never particularly found “slenderness” attractive. There’s something primal in men that WANTS curves. It means fecundity, sustanence, etc., all those things that the species requires to perpetuate. That the MSM has spent the last 40 years trying to change that paradigm is a discussion for another day. I know when my best friend met my girlfriend, he said it wouldn’t last because it seemed I always had a 38D minimum!

    You just don’t pick and choose who you fall in love with.

    Aside to Roissy-find yourself a nice cougar; they’re much less work to bed and much more worthwhile when you get there!

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  57. Not nearly as much time as a couple has to spend interacting non-coitally (though not really what Roissy is looking for in the first place). As I said, the fact that we enjoy each other’s company outside the bedroom is what makes it special (that sound you hear is Roissy gagging).

    quite the contrary.
    i love being in love and relationships with incredible women are among the best things in life, if not the best.

    That the MSM has spent the last 40 years trying to change that paradigm is a discussion for another day.

    they’re doing a horrible job of it judging by the skyrocketing obesity rates in the US.

    Aside to Roissy-find yourself a nice cougar; they’re much less work to bed and much more worthwhile when you get there!

    define worthwhile.

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  58. roissy, it seems that you were getting more into her, but when you knew it she was already fed up. She may have thought the attention was just a ploy to keep her in orbit.

    sorry if this is blunt but if this is where pretty lies perish, then I’m going to say what I think.

    cheers dudes.

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  59. on November 9, 2007 at 6:01 am Days of Broken Arrows

    Sorry to comment so late on this but Alias Clio said:

    “Only as you get older, fewer women will want you, and the ones who do will be older too.”

    As a guy who has a few years under his belt, I can tell you she is dead wrong. Totally wrong! I’m on the short side, and have a high-status but medium-pay job. And with each year that goes by, the single women seem to flock more and more. Heck, the married women flirt more. Older women, younger women, women my age. Hell, college girls.

    The fact is, women like men, not boys, and the years has worked wonders on how attracted women are to me. Maybe it’s the job — or the fact I remained looking young — but had I gotten this much attention at 25, I’d be paying child support like Flavor Flav (the old school rap reference gives away I’m not 25 anymore).

    I think that Craig’s List dude said it best when he wrote that men are an appreciating asset and women are a depreciating asset. I advise all you lonely guys in your twenties to wait a few years and things will change.

    Liked by 1 person


  60. doba-
    speaking from experience, i concur 100%.

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  61. Jeeze, didn’t anybody actually watch _Casablanca_? Rick hints to Captain Reynaud that he plans to leave with Ilsa after betraying Laszlo to the police. But there’s nothing overt to suggest that he ever intended to go through with it. For one thing, he has no reason to think that Ilsa would accept him then – his betraying Laszlo would disgust her.

    Rick’s final renunciation is to send Ilsa away with Laszlo, rather than ask her to stay with him.

    Oh, and Rick’s actions at the end are not merely risky but approaching suicidal – he shoots Major Strasser in front of Captain Reynaud, then stays behind. He expects Reynaud to arrest him and to be executed. Yes, the police are corrupt, but killing the chief German agent is not something one could get out of with a payoff.

    The surprise ending is when Reynaud decides to protect Rick. The great victory is _Reynaud_’s redemption, not Rick’s. Rick’s sacrifice has impressed Reynaud so much that he renounces his position with the Vichy regime (symbolized by his violently discarding a bottle of Vichy Water, and expressed in his suggestion that he and Rick head for the Free French post in Brazzaville).

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  62. Just ran across this blog and my mind is blown to use an oft used phrase. I am astounded that this “dodged the same bullet twice” person is even asking why his games didn’t work. Because they were games. Because you knew the score when she didn’t. Because she was playing the game of love and you were playing a different game entirely. You were playing the game of manipulation and control. Have you ever asked yourself exactly WHO it was that was lying, manipulating, and using this women? Who was it that schemed, plotted, and “decided” that deceiving her and keeping her anxious and insecure was a great idea? Who is this man who is going to be DEAD one day? Who is he?

    You have no idea and you’re asking these fellow bloggers to tell you who you are, who you were and who you’re now supposed to be? How about just being authentic? Has the thought ever occurred to you that it might be the very best thing? Don’t you want to be authentic with SOMEONE? Isn’t it much better just to be alone than to be phony with someone…anyone?

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  63. Wow…see, this is why I prefer a games free situation. I don’t read minds or believe too much in words. With both men and women, I watch what they do infinitely more than what they say.

    Sorry to say, Roissy, but you wouldn’t have lasted a week before I was banging someone more consistent. Just because you think you’re the only one and we’re obsessed doesn’t mean we actually are, and believe me, what you won’t do for a woman, another brother will.

    If a woman singles you out it’s because she thinks you’re special in some way, but as soon as she finds out that you’re aloof because you’re frightened and not because you’re actually too busy to talk to her, the facade has fallen. At that point you’re just one step from the friend zone. You’re the “break glass in case of emergency” guy.

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  64. […] I was rooting for the beta. In the flood of emotions, he may not have realized it at the time, but he dodged a bullet. […]

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  65. great post and many uncomfortable truths for both men and women… loved it!

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  66. […] I did not reply to that text. I noted with wry irony the “best of luck” face saving maneuver and then proceeded to show her text to all my friends later on. We scornfully laughed in that way guys laugh when we’ve dodged a bullet. […]

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  67. […] I know what a lot of you are thinking. “Hypocrite! All this time he’s been telling us to avoid marriage, and he goes and gets married.” You forget that I’ve also said rules were made to be […]

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  68. […] Your victory cums in doing what you please and refusing to play her marionette. When that last fuck arrives, and it will, don’t be surprised if it is the best lay you’ve ever had. […]

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  69. mature sex mom boy movies…

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  70. […] had long term relationships with a Russian girl and a Polish girl. Both were exquisitely pretty, feminine, slender, and most importantly for an […]

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  71. bitches love sociopaths

    Mmm battered housewife syndrome

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  72. […] all those imploring that I settle down, I say: Don’t hold your breath. Yes, I will get older. But then, I would have gotten older in a marriage, too. Yes, there is a […]

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  73. […] had a few instances where the girl I was dating began pressuring me for marriage. What did I do? I walked. And I will probably walk again. If a lover told me “marry me or […]

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  74. Not sure why women bother posting here. All they do is bleat on about how they can see ‘though’ game or that they have an antidote to it, but all that happens in the end is that they affirm the reasons game works.

    Girls, read your threads. They’re not as clever as you think. They’re full of backflips, contradictions and circular arguments. The simple fact of the matter is that men are designed to circumvent the rules, and they will circumvent them or die trying. To be male is to game. Fuck the alphabet.

    Every rule women make or uphold that doesn’t improve conditions for humankind will eventually be gamed out of existence by men. It’s our job. There’s no point arguing about this – it’s an act of nature. By our very nature, men improve on everything that a woman is, has or does. If the ‘girl cell’ is the essence of Man, as that pheminist pigdog Eve Ensler barked on CNN the other day, then thwarting women’s game is the only way mankind can survive. Arrest the thwart and you arrest evolution.

    Each time one of Ensler’s talking cunts persuades women of a greater truth than this, a million more loving spoonfuls end up as fish food.

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  75. […] that she is piling on the PDA and feminine sweetness now that her gig is about to blow up. I wrote about this phenomenon in this post about a girl whose best fuck I had with her occurred the day before we broke up. The afternoon […]

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  76. @alias clio: It sounds like you have a good definition for what an “ideal” man might be like. I put that in parentheses because I don’t believe that it’s possible for anyone to be ideal of course. It sounds grounded on good sense and moral soundness. Too bad you’re not attracted to such a man by your own admission and prefer men with a little dirt on them. Sigh. Women are cursed to be attracted to evil men and losers while ignoring the good guys and even the winners sometimes. You’re just proving more of Roissy’s point proving that chicks dig jerks and game works.

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