Similarities Between Now And The Great Depression

With all the recent talk of “moral hazards” and “socializing the loss, privatizing the profit”, it seems the time is right to look for any parallels between the current mess and the Big One of 1929. This article lays out a pretty persuasive case that there are enough similarities between now and then to wonder whether we risk careening into a new Greater Depression:

Creating a Great Depression

Given the grim political prospect ahead of us, we can now examine the checklist for Great Depression causation, and see how many we can check off for today’s leaders:

1. Asset price crash: Check! We’ve already had the crash in asset prices, twice, in 2000-02 with stocks and now with housing. As the stock market crash of 1987 demonstrated, asset price crashes don’t necessarily lead to Great Depressions, but they do thoroughly shake the financial system and reveal hidden weaknesses. This time around, there have been plenty to reveal.

2. Protectionism: Yes, but less severe. Protectionism is definitely reviving, but to nothing like the level of the Smoot-Hawley tariff. Obama’s threat to renegotiate NAFTA, combined with a substantial recession, could produce a substantial leap in protectionism. We can however have at least moderate confidence that Obama has no intention of actually doing anything so foolish as to reopen trade agreements in the middle of an economic downturn.

3. Bank failures: Check! We need an actual bank or two to go under however, not just these investment banking houses of cards, and we need an international bankruptcy along the lines of Creditanstalt. My money would be on one of the thoroughly opaque Chinese behemoths. The Fed and other central banks will doubtless try to avoid a collapse of the money supply following a bankruptcy; they may simply produce hyperinflation, a problem we didn’t have in the 1930s.

4. Expansion of the public sector: Check! Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson’s $700 billion housing bailout fund certainly qualifies here. Commentators have noted the similarity to Hoover’s Reconstruction Finance Corporation, without noting that the RFC was a colossal economic failure. It diverted resources to politically selected companies, increasing the level of Federal debt raising and thereby crowding truly private sector entities out of the capital market. The diversion of resources from the private to the public sector was itself deflationary, weakening the system’s productivity growth potential and deepening the downturn. Paulson appears to be operating on the basis that federal resources are essentially infinite. A $700 billion bailout and the $1 trillion deficits to which it will lead will “destruction test” this bizarre theory. Obama’s spending plans, which presumably won’t be abandoned altogether, will also be a problem here, Indeed it is likely that by 2012 the ratio of federal spending to GDP will be at a new high level never before seen in peacetime. As with bank failures, this time around an excessively accommodative Fed is likely to monetize the additional debt and thereby cause rapidly accelerating inflation.

5. Tax increases in a downturn: Probable. Obama has already promised tax increases, which he will probably make larger than planned to attack the $1 trillion deficits. That’s precisely the mistake Hoover made. McCain hasn’t promised tax increases, but appears to have no great philosophical objection to higher taxes and a commitment to reducing the deficit – it thus looks like tax increases will be forthcoming from him, too.

6. Abandonment of Capitalism: Probable. The principles of capitalism will have little popular support in the years ahead, as in the 1930s. Hence there will be no immediate opposition (other than from politically discredited industries) to daft new schemes of regulation that destroy market incentives. Obama has some idea how markets work, but the barons in the Congressional Democrat majority don’t, so there is likely to be some truly damaging legislation in our future. Even if McCain becomes President, he appears to have no instincts as to which controls and restrictions would wreak most destruction so “compromise” legislation with Congressional Democrats might be as bad or worse than under a President Obama.

7. Destruction of Capital markets: Possible. This is the big question-mark. In the 1930s, the Glass-Steagall Act, by separating investment banking from commercial banking at the bottom of a recession, when capital was scarce and entrepreneurial spirits non-existent, produced investment banks that were truly undercapitalized and indeed unprofitable – even Merrill Lynch, among the largest of them even then, lost money over the decade of the 1930s and survived only through subventions from Charles Merrill’s mother’s trust fund. The result was a level of capital raising in bond and stock markets throughout the late 1930s that was below that at the bottom of the 1920-21 recession, in a much larger economy. It is not unimaginable that draconian legislation along the same lines, backed by popular outrage against Wall Street, might have a similar effect.

What’s needed now is calm and a step back from hysteria. I don’t believe a couple guys (Bernanke and Paulson) cooking up huge backroom buyback schemes to ostensibly save the country from itself would have better answers than a market allowed to adjust on its own.

Thus not all of these factors operate to repeat the 1930s exactly; on the other hand, some of them merely promise a more inflationary version of that sorry decade, which would probably be even more unpleasant. While a re-run of the Great Depression, with or without hyperinflation, is still by no means inevitable, we are a lot closer than we were a month ago.

If we’re heading into an inflationary spiral and peak oil, then I’m putting my money in frontline suppliers like oil, food producers and utilities.

Here’s a guy who says the right answer is bankruptcy, not a bailout.

This bailout was a terrible idea. Here’s why.

The current mess would never have occurred in the absence of ill-conceived federal policies. The federal government chartered Fannie Mae in 1938 and Freddie Mac in 1970; these two mortgage lending institutions are at the center of the crisis. The government implicitly promised these institutions that it would make good on their debts, so Fannie and Freddie took on huge amounts of excessive risk. […]

The fact that government bears such a huge responsibility for the current mess means any response should eliminate the conditions that created this situation in the first place, not attempt to fix bad government with more government.

I agree. The bailout was a terrible idea and I’m glad it collapsed. It ignored a fundamental principle of human nature — when you shield someone from the consequences of his failures, he is more likely to repeat the same mistakes.

The fact that government bears such a huge responsibility for the current mess means any response should eliminate the conditions that created this situation in the first place, not attempt to fix bad government with more government. […]

So what should the government do? Eliminate those policies that generated the current mess. This means, at a general level, abandoning the goal of home ownership independent of ability to pay. This means, in particular, getting rid of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, along with policies like the Community Reinvestment Act that pressure banks into subprime lending.

The right view of the financial mess is that an enormous fraction of subprime lending should never have occurred in the first place. Someone has to pay for that. That someone should not be, and does not need to be, the U.S. taxpayer.

The federal government is an evil gluttonous behemoth like it has never been in American history, and I place most of the blame for this suffocating clutch of tentacled anti-liberty at the exact moment women were given the right to vote. It was virtually inevitable that women, being the sex more concerned with security and stability and less enamored of freedom and risk, with the help of their alpha male co-conspirators and lickspittle beta male suckasses begging for a pussy handout, would vote in more government-as-daddy-and-husband-substitute, with the attendant confiscatory and redistributive taxes, regulations, and government intrusion that entails.

We are now reaping the girlwind.





Comments


  1. Great Blog post. I am going to bookmark and read more often. I love the Blog template � if you need any assistance customizing it let me know!

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  2. hahahahahahahahahahahah, oh my god this is good stuff!
    I now know what rotflmao really means.

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  3. on September 30, 2008 at 4:02 pm L'il Hadron Collider

    I detected strange particles the day Bush stole the 2000 election.

    All of this other stuff – is just the remnants of that big bang.

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  4. Ehhh, from what I gather, it’s the lack of government regulation that created this big mess.

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  5. Ehhh, from what I gather, it’s the lack of government regulation that created this big mess.

    If you’re gathering from Democrat talking points that have no basis in economic knowledge, then sure. But in reality, no.

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  6. “Ehhh, from what I gather, it’s the lack of government regulation that created this big mess.”

    Wrong. What part of the above article don’t you understand? And let’s not forget to blame PC and liberals for this mess as well.

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  7. http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2008/09/economic_disasters_and_stupid.php

    from the article:

    Why did all of this stuff happen?

    In a word: deregulation.

    One of the big trends in American politics is deregulation. Right-winger’s in the government have been constantly harping on the idea that the free market is the perfect solution to any and all problems. Anything that restricts the market – any rules or regulations imposed on it – are inevitably a bad thing, which can never do anything but screw things up. And they’ve worked hard at removing any and all rules that might muddle up their precious market.

    Once upon a time, banks had to keep the bank money (i.e., deposits) separate from other things. In fact, they had to keep the entire business of banking separate from the investment business. There were rules about what they could invest in. And so on.

    All of this was torn down by the conservatives in our government. And as new financial products came onto the market, instead of making rules to make sure that people were being fair and honest, they insisting on maintaining a strict hand-off policy.

    Free markets are great things. But the big catch is that like anything else run by human beings, they’re easy to abuse if you’re not honest. The purpose of regulation is to try to limit the kinds of abuse people can get away with. If someone sells you an investment and tells you that your principal is absolutely safe, then damn it, it should be safe. If it’s not, they should be required to tell you what the risks are.

    But for now, they don’t. There’s no legal framework for creating or enforcing rules. No one can be punished for the damage they’ve done. No one loses the huge rewards that they pocketed by screwing people over – because there’s no rules, no legal mechanism, that says that they can’t. As I’m finishing this article, I just came across a news story. Lehman Brothers is one of the big investment firms that was involved in this. They were forced into bankruptcy as a result. As they’re starting to liquidate and sell off their assets, we learn that one of the last things they did before filing for bankruptcy was setting aside two and a half billion dollars for performance bonuses for the staff of the New York office. The very people who put the firms money into worthless investments, who ran a hundred year old company into the ground, made sure that before they filed for bankruptcy, they squirreled away more of their investors money to pay themselves bonuses. And that’s legal – they can take that money out of the pool of liquidated assets to pay themselves, instead of leaving it to pay back the people who are owed.

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  8. L, here’s one of the responses that does a good job of rebutting:

    The problem was caused by poor regulation, not deregulation. The government encouraged loans over 80% LTV, see all the stories on Andrew Cuomo’s reign at HUD and the encouragement of FNMA and FHLMC to take on these risky loans. Greenspan keeping the prime rate so low for so long caused some of this too.

    A funny thing about these loans was that many were structured as 80/10/10 or 80/15/5 to avoid PMI. I don’t even understand how anyone could get a 100% loan- it seemed stupid at the time, it seems insane now. The bad part about over 80% LTV loans is that they are very sensitive to price drops. The collateral is worth less than the loan. The value of any derivatives based on that loan just became a lot less valuable- even if the payments are made on time.

    The housing bubble popping is the root cause of this. Greedy people buying overpriced houses until the biggest sucker was found. Greedy people refinancing their homes to take out lots of cash reduced their equity stake. As prices rose, people needed higher risk loans, higher LTV ratios to get what they thought they deserved. Small time investors bought everything hoping to flip. As prices drop, the value of those loans drops too.

    As far as the over-leveraged investment banks- bad move on their part. Reread “Black Swan” guys. Start over as commercial banks with a 12x maximum leverage or let them burn. Nothing is too big to fail now.

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  9. Sorry man, I gotta disagree with this one.

    To say you can solve this problem by getting rid of the factors that led to it is like saying you can put out a fire by not leaving oily rags around.

    The Democrats and their effort to manipulate markets deserve a fair part of the blame, but the fact is, people were OPENLY giving out CLEARLY FRAUDULENT loans for several years, and the republicans sat on their asses.

    Smart people saw this crisis coming from miles away, and leaders were willfully blind. What needs to change is the dumbasses who run the US. As bad as the democrats are, the republicans are insane.

    I have a post on this in my blog too, BTW, called Time to take your money out of the bank?

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  10. What it all comes down to is the replacement of logical thought by wishful thinking. There is no logical reason to believe that housing prices must keep rising at an ever-increasing pace, indeed quite the opposite makes far more sense. Unfortunately, everyone wanted prices to keep rising, and acted on this wishful thinking.

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  11. The Republicans are worthless, having capitulated to the Democrats on virtually every conservative cause. This happened sometime after Ronald Reagan, the Last American President, left office in 1989.

    There were a few exceptions to this, such as when the Republicans in the House stood firm against the 2006 Amnesty.

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  12. L,

    You are wrong about deregulation being the problem. The government couldn’t keep their filthy hands out of the business. THey made plenty of bad regulations and threated even more to get campaign contributions out of financial firms (see the entire career of Eliot Spitzer). But you have to remember that regulations are always written in hindsight. They get written because something happened in the past. Innovation escapes regulators. Innovators come up with new products and new instruments which are extra profitable because they escape regulatory scrutiny. That’s called regulatory arbitrage. Money then leaves the regulated sector and moves to the unregulated sector to seek higher returns. The more the gov regulates then, the faster the money, talent, and resorces work to skirt the regulations and capture that arbitrage opportunity (which is now shown to pile systemic risk on the system as everyone attempts the same new strategy). Special investment vehicles, credit default swaps, complicated and layered hedging strategies were ways to skirt accounting rules (see Sarbanes-Oxley) and other realitively more costly risk management strategies like, oh, I’ll go out on a limb here and say, keeping capital on hand and holding adequate reserves.

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  13. Gotta put in a good word for your team even when the ceiling is caving in and we should all be pitching in to keep it up. Politics. So predictable.

    And so continues the blame game.

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  14. There’s a lot of potential unexpected consequences of this bill. Among those that I can see:

    A) Credit to try up for large swaths of the poorer (dollar or credit-wise) segment of the population – Who is going to want to lend to anyone with a FICO score of less than 750/800 if they can have the mortgage terms altered unilaterally by a judge? What smaller bank or credit union is going to want to lend to members who have less than near-perfect credit when there’s an outside chance that they could take a many thousand dollar haircut on a loan if someone hits the skids financially? And how will the government fix this? Are they going to bludgeon lenders to *again* loan to risky borrowers?

    B) More paralysis in the MBS market – Who is going to want to buy MBS from the government if there’s a chance that random tranches of MBS are going to lose a decent percentage of value at the stroke of a judge’s (or the government’s) pen?

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  15. Well, Hope, ask yourself this:

    Who are the main or let’s be honest, total consumers of astrology, mediums, ghost whisperers, and the like?

    Who reliably votes Democratic, to the point where there is a “gender gap” and who votes Socialist in Europe? Who are the main purveyors of PC, and Multiculturalism? Who loves it and defends it?

    It’s not men. It’s women. Women have a risk aversion and short-decision horizon. Even though the lose long term from Sharia, it’s imposition in Britain hurts beta men, who Women hate, hate, hate, and benefits them short-term since they can make PC accusations and find “witches” for public consequences, including in Britain jail time. This is why women are ground-zero for PC and Multiculturalism and the like. It gives them power, over their mortal enemies, Beta Men.

    There are geeky men who believe in UFOs and the like (even there the superstitions are “harder”) but the difference is that nearly all men, Alpha or Beta, laugh at them. Women ooh and ahh over psychics, astrology, fortune tellers, and the like. Even in Israel, a series based on the premise that a Fortune Teller tells a woman the only chance she has for love and marriage is one of her exes, was a huge hit among Israeli women. Being remade here in the US.

    You could not make that with genders flipped, since few men in the West believe in fortune tellers and the like.

    Back in 1940, the DAR and Woody Guthrie were strange bedfellows. The DAR gave Guthrie an award for his anti-British album urging the US to stay neutral against Hitler, who at the time was allied with Guthrie’s pal Stalin. Women ALWAYS pursue the Alpha-est male, and that’s true in Politics. Obama is the “Alpha Male” who all the cool people worship (literally, as a God) so thus women fall for him big-time.

    This problem is endemic in all Western societies, and will never change. Eventually in Britain women will be treated as semi-property as Sharia crowds out Common Law, but women are probably OK with that. Shrug. They are who they are.

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  16. The government (state of WI, Soc. Security) was once my Daddy-substitute. I have since repaid the government (state of IL, Soc. Security, IRS) at least a million dollars, with more purse-vacuuming to go. Thank you taxpayers.

    Financial wreckage is accompanied by emotional, mental, and family wreckage.

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  17. It ignored a fundamental principle of human nature — when you shield someone from the consequences of his failures, he is more likely to repeat the same mistakes.

    There’s a lot wrong with the above post but I’ll highlight this in particular. The bailout will be buying assets that were, a year and a half ago, marked at 100 cents on the dollar or higher, and now are being bought at 30 or 40 cents on the dollar… There are hundreds of billions of dollars of these assets resulting in losses reaching hundreds of billions of dollars. Fortunes have been lost by the CEOs of Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers, not to mention the employees who owned 30% of the company. People will be going to jail soon.

    Please stick with women. It damages the credibility of your claim to rationality when you just parrot cable news talking points like the italicized one above without any knowledge of what you’re talking about.

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  18. Women have a risk aversion and short-decision horizon.

    Whiskey, save your breath. I already know all this. Even my more rational left brain, trained from young to dismiss religion and supernatural phenomena, gets a giddy rush from astrology.

    I personally think women are not fit to be public leaders or to vote, really, but who are openly lauding the female on the ticket? Who are some of those who use female gullibility and religious fervor to stir up support for their own cause?

    Once the proverbial worm is out of its can, everyone wants a piece of it in order to advance their own agenda. Step back from your own politics for a second, gaze into history or even fiction, and observe that it is all following an old, familiar pattern.

    As I said, predictable.

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  19. anony positioned for the sympathy vote:
    The government (state of WI, Soc. Security) was once my Daddy-substitute.

    you are the problem.

    Financial wreckage is accompanied by emotional, mental, and family wreckage.

    cry me a river.
    your poor judgment or bad luck is not my moral crisis.
    nor should it be.
    butch up!

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  20. I’m suprised people aren’t ringing the “Stop spending taxpayers money in Iraq TODAY” bell on this. Seriously. Like everyone head to the boats right now. This article is mentioning raising taxes to address a 1 trillion deficit in the budget. Jesus, we are 1 trillion short, and we are waging wars!?!

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  21. — who are openly lauding the female on the ticket

    I think that a big part of the conservatives’ enthusiasm for Palin is what she represents, rather than her potential to lead. And she represents a wholesome and fecund woman, a fertility goddess for our time. And I mean no slight to Palin by saying that. She’s the anti-Carrie/Samantha/etc. I really do hope she becomes a role-model for American women.

    — Step back from your own politics for a second

    Agrteed in principle. But some partisan arguments are motivated by a perception that ratehr than working on putting out a fire, the other side is pouring oil on it.

    — Eventually in Britain women will be treated as semi-property as Sharia crowds out Common Law, but women are probably OK with that

    Interesting comments, but do you think they can be qualified? As I understand it, the big voting gap is not between men and women, but between married white women and unmarried white women.

    Married women are invested in their children’s future and also tend to internalize their husbands’ politics.

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  22. Married women are invested in their children’s future and also tend to internalize their husbands’ politics.

    true. and that is because married women already have a husband and don’t need a second one in the form of the federal government.

    if anything, a second husband only gets in the way.

    also, women by nature are always seeking a leader in whom they can abdicate and invest their servility. married women… the happy ones at least… have found their personal leader and don’t need to find another one in any p”O”litician.

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  23. @ Nate 20 – We’re 1 trillion short and we’re handing out cash to poor people and lazy old people in the form of Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security?

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  24. Points 4 and 7 show the economic and historical illiteracy typical of right-wing conservative crackpots. The RFC started making loans right around the time economic growth started up again, and in any case Federal borrowing at the peak of the New Deal was at about the same percent of GDP as borrowing during the 1980s under Saint Ronald Reagan, savior of all humanity.

    Also, this crisis is not due to Fannie and Freddie, that’s a Republican propaganda line. They were more victims of it. Fannie and Freddie’s shares of the mortgage market started shrinking around 2001 when things got out of control in the financial markets.

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  25. I really do hope she becomes a role-model for American women.

    Seriously why? I’d argue that she threw her life away by marrying so long, and she threw her daughter’s life away in the process. She only lucked out by being residing in a “small” state, but most other women who replicate her path would end up trudged in anonymous misery.

    BTW, David Alexander is pro-bailout as he fears the repercussions on the local New York Metro economy, and he fears the freeze up in the credit markets. Once credit card limits are cut, mortgages are declined among those with solid credit, student loans are declined, home equity loans nuked, municipal and state governments unable to borrow to pay for capital projects, and small businesses unable to borrow to meet payroll, then we’ll all wish that we had the bailout. Hell, we need to inflate the stock market to inflate the 401ks, IRAs, and pension funds to avoid taxpayer bailouts of those assets…

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  26. “Gotta put in a good word for your team even when the ceiling is caving in and we should all be pitching in to keep it up. Politics. So predictable.

    And so continues the blame game.”

    Hope, please offer something constructive or shut the fuck up. Otherwise, stick with astrology. You’ll be happier in a fantasy world anyway.

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  27. threw her daughter’s life away in the process

    Getting pregnant as a teen is one of the best thing that can happen to a middle class girl today.

    Provided that the boy isn’t a complete dreg, that he will get shotgunned into marriage, and will learn responsibility real quick. Under his father-in-laws’ watchful eye if necessary.

    The young couple is likely then to have one or two more children before they turn 28 or so. By the time she is in her mid-30s, th ekids will be grown up and she will have her whole life ahead of her.

    Alas, she wil have missed out on many shags and bakakkes with the college JV lacrosse team.

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  28. [i]
    I think that a big part of the conservatives’ enthusiasm for Palin is what she represents, rather than her potential to lead. And she represents a wholesome and fecund woman, a fertility goddess for our time. And I mean no slight to Palin by saying that. She’s the anti-Carrie/Samantha/etc. I really do hope she becomes a role-model for American women.
    [/i]

    Someone who can’t name a Supreme Court case aside from Roe vs Wade, who thinks humans and dinosaurs walked the Earth together, 6000 years ago, who is vehemently anti-abortion, is the LAST person I’d want to be a role model to anybody.

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  29. The federal government is an evil gluttonous behemoth like it has never been in American history, and I place most of the blame for this suffocating clutch of tentacled anti-liberty at the exact moment women were given the right to vote.

    Your entire convoluted analysis is–bottom line–just a scholarly way of saying “poor, poor, pitiful me”; or US as the case may be. People would be wise to take PERSONAL responsibility for their suffering. It’s this penchant to blame something else, anything else that is the true reason for whatever fucked up mess there is. I’m not saying there aren’t very ill societal structures that we’re born into, but please, the truth is we can all change our individual lives and in so doing, create positive change.

    I have spoken. x_x

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  30. Ahh… left wing orthodoxy’s chickens have come home to roost. Thank you woman’s suffrage, and all the tenants of communists cookbooks of old. Marx would be proud.

    There are videos abound on YouTube and other sites of our wise democrats rambling on about how it is racist to deny risky loans. Keep the money flowing, keep Fannie and Freddie pumping those sub-primes out. To do otherwise is tantamount to owning slaves, don’t ya know?

    Even President Clinton wanted some oversight into Fannie and Freddie back in the 90’s, but was stopped by (wait for it…) the democrats in congress. Whoa, shocka! I’m glad to see some of the more traditional democrats, many conservative blue dogs from the south, vote no on this piece of shit bill.

    Quasi-governmental mega companies being run into the ground by clueless idiots from the House of Reps and the Senate? Say it ain’t so!

    Don’t get me started on many of our current republican leaders. Very few are even fit to hold the jock strap of Ronald Regan. G.W. Bush has only done two things useful – cut taxes and made liberals cry en mass.

    For people confused on how our national debt actually works, and why it isn’t the largest it has ever been as a % of GDP, see the Skeptical Optimist. Hint: China does not own most of our Debt, and the best way to get economies going is through growth, not just cutting taxes and cutting spending. There has to be incentives and infrastructure upgrades. Way to go on not building more refineries and drilling in more places, assholes. The south east gas shortages were caused by two hurricanes. Wait until we get a CAT5 or some earth quakes.

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  31. I wish I had more time but they’re killing me here at work. I disagree with Prof. Miron. The vast majority of mortgages are to prime lenders whose default rates are not equal to that of great depression era mortgage holders (something like 10% PD). Its incongruent to say the market is pricing them correctly when mortgage backs are trading at cents on the dollar but their price is inconsistent with default rates and LGDs of prime rate mortgage holders. However, since these instruments require liquidity to price, and an accurate ‘fair value’ can only be arrived at through mark to market, why don’t these figures prove?

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  32. Getting pregnant as a teen is one of the best thing that can happen to a middle class girl today.

    That precludes her from going to a high end selective or Ivy League college where she will find a career that will give her access to high ranking white or Jewish males with power, prestige, and/or money.

    Quite frankly, I have no use for prole grandchildren, and for all intents and purposes, if my daughter has a child, I end up having an additional child which ruins my personal financial plans and goals. It’s a net loss for everybody involved in bringing this child into the world. In contrast, I would want my daughters to enjoy their lives, not be saddled with burdens at a young age and not grow up viewing their children as a source of pain and misery as they spend each day looking enviously on women who did the proper thing. By the time they’re in their mid-thirties they’ll be much too old and too poor to enjoy their lives.

    Besides, as a black man, a pregnant daughter is shameful, and just reinforces what “some” people think about black people. So my daughter will win a free abortion regardless of her desires.

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  33. Whiskey 15 –

    I would caution those who dismiss astrology too quickly, especially if they know next to nothing about it. All of the major movers and shakers in the astrological world, notable exceptions aside, have been and to continue to be, men. Moreover, many of the Western and Eastern world’s biggest names in Science were also astrologers: Newton, Galileo, Copernicus, Kepler, etc. Lookup the life and times of William Lilly. Look up the universities at Baghdad. Astrology has and continues to play a big role in India, about roughly half of all my clients are Indian males from places like Chennai and Bangalore, the Silicon Valleys of India.

    Also, don’t be fooled, many folks on Wall Street – again males -rely on astrology a good bit. Look up Henry Weingarten, or Arch Crawford, just to name a few.

    To say that astrology has been bent towards the interests of women in our time is to state the obvious, and I’ve become something of a pariah in the astrological community for writing voluminously on this point. My position is that, by openly pandering to the very vices of women, astrology is hurt in the process. Whiskey’s comments are an example of this proposition playing itself out. Proof indeed.

    Astrology has a rich tradition. Please take a bit of time before you attempt to trash it.

    Lastly, to Roissy, if he’s reading along:

    If your view is that once Women got the Vote things turned downhill – a provocative statement to be sure – I am wondering what your view of African Americans getting same? And for the record, I do agree that the bailout is a bad idea.

    Thanks.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  34. That precludes her from going to a high end selective or Ivy League college …

    Does Harvard have a non-admission policy with regards to married women?

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  35. Astrology and other paranormal intersts can be reconciled with the rational mind when at their best they are manifestations of man’s intuitive attempt to explain phenmomena that science has not yet explored.

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  36. Dave Alexander,
    Actually, history, and by that I mean African American history, does not agree with you.

    Black women commonly had families of their own back in the early 60s, 50s and 40s, and many went on to do quite well for themselves. My own grandmother had two children, my mom and uncle, yet that didn’t stop her from owning her own home, having numerous investment properties, and owning no less than three “mom and pop” stores. The reason why she could do all this? My grandfather.

    After serving as one of the few Black Sargents in the USMC in WW2 – he was a Drill Sargent – he was able to parlay his time in the “service” into getting a job at the Post Office. As many Black folks know, such a job was a big deal back then. Not nly did it promise job security, but it also promised a nice pension, which eventually happened.

    Because of my grandfather’s stable income, my grandmother was able to pursue her business interests. They remained married for more than 50 years, until my grandmother passed away in the latter 90s. My grandfather would live on to his 90s, passing away in 2003.

    The keyword in the above story is MARRIAGE, and that’s what’s in deadly short supply in Black America, Dave. That’s the problem. Palin’s daughter will be just fine, because I’m sure Bristol’s boyfriend Levi will soon become her hubbie, at the point of the Palin family shotgun, the same one they hunt down moose with every season. The problem is, the guns in the hood aren’t used to the same effect and instead are used to mow each other down over stupid drug turf wars, deals gone wrong, and intimatedisputes, many of which having to do with women. See my many thoughts on de facto polygamy.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  37. PA,
    No disrespect to you, and I don’t necessarily disagree with what you’ve said, but I must ask: what do you actually KNOW about astrology? Have you ever studied it? If so, could you please cite those sources, please?

    You see, one of the biggest problems I have with critics of astrology, is that all too often they are wofeully ignorant of the very thing they are criticizing, all the while claiming an air of detached rationality. The Humanist Magazine “attack” on astrology back in 1975, isan excellent case in point.

    Comments?

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  38. I wasn’t criticizing astrology. I thought I was actually speaking positively of it.

    Like


  39. PA,
    Ooops, my bad. Sorry!:)

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  40. No biggie!

    Like


  41. Does Harvard have a non-admission policy with regards to married women?

    No, Harvard doesn’t have such a policy, but if she’s married with a child, it destroys any chance of her marrying into a proper WASP or Jewish family which destroys my chances for my descendants for joining the elite. I may have blown my chance to marry into the elite, but I’ll be damned if my kids marry proles. Secondly, as I pointed out, to ensure that my daughter and granddaughter live a decent lifestyle will require massive infusions of cash on my part which weakens me financially in the short and long-term. It’s better for everybody’s social and financial help to simply have my daughter abort the child, and everybody moves along the proper path.

    As many Black folks know, such a job was a big deal back then.

    So in other words, he was a fluke.

    Because of my grandfather’s stable income, my grandmother was able to pursue her business interests.

    Yes, but were they married at a young age? Did your mother or uncle loot precious financial resources because they had children before they could support themselves independently? I’m arguing that for most parents, their children giving birth to grandchildren before proper financial security simply weakens the financial positions of everybody involved.

    The keyword in the above story is MARRIAGE, and that’s what’s in deadly short supply in Black America, Dave.

    Of course, and IIRC, black poverty rates could be decreased significantly if black couples were to marry. The problem is that in certain segments of the black community, the men simply aren’t worth marrying, or the shortage of good men leads men to simply game the women who are desperate for anything resembling a decent employed male.

    the guns in the hood aren’t used to the same effect and instead are used to mow each other down over stupid drug turf wars, deals gone wrong, and intimatedisputes, many of which having to do with women.

    TRUTH.

    Like


  42. There are many intelligent high IQ people here. I have a couple of ideas but I would like to read what you think.

    1. Why aren’t more Americans willing to ride bikes?
    It would help us lose weight, type II diabetes and lower BP. Gas prices should go down, as there would be a decreased demand for it.

    2. If all Americans started to save 10% of their income, how would that change the economy? What would happen to the economy if more Americans only owned one low limit credit card (3,000 max)
    If more unmarried Americans lived with their parents until marriage, how would that affect housing prices and rental rates?

    3.If more Americans completed their first two years at a community college(HS be gone), how would that affect the cost of a college education? What if more Americans refused to accept student loans to attend college, how would that affect college costs?

    Like


  43. The 19th Amendement isn’t the problem. Going off the gold standard is the problem.

    Like


  44. But some partisan arguments are motivated by a perception that ratehr than working on putting out a fire, the other side is pouring oil on it.

    That perception is in part what gives life and blood to the two-party system. There is much petty quibbling over who’s to blame for the various failures, including the latest quandary of the bill’s failure to pass the House.

    Nowhere in the Constitution or the foundation of American system is there a mandate for the two-party system, and George Washington believed political parties did not serve people’s interests. The two-party system is polarization and stagnation.

    No offense intended, but for instance:

    T:
    “Democrat talking points that have no basis in economic knowledge”

    From glib outsider perspective: there are no economists on the democrat side?

    MQ:
    “the economic and historical illiteracy typical of right-wing conservative crackpots.”

    From glib outsider perspective: republicans are crackpots who don’t know economics or history?

    Roissy is right in that wives tend to take on their husband’s politics. My husband is an independent.

    Intervention has become the default action nowadays, from foreign policy to financial markets. This is what is being done on all levels of leadership and government, regardless of party affiliation. Those who want a bigger piece of the big power pie (seats + money) act on that motivation, rather than real values and conviction.

    Like


  45. We had a chance to reform after the dotcom crash, but instead we just engineered the housing bubble to keep the economy redlining. I guess they thought it was the key to paying for our foreign adventures.

    This one’s going to take years to work itself out. The baby boomers are going to get wiped out bad just when they thought they’d retire to permanent affluence.

    One thing I wonder about is how younger 20-somethings are going to handle this. I’m a few years ahead of that curve, and actually got my first job during a recession (early 90s). Just a few years later, it seemed like all the kids were driving new SUVs, whereas when I was in my teens we felt lucky to have a 15yo junker.

    Another depression is going to be a huge disappointment to people who have never experienced anything but affluence in their lives.

    Like


  46. L:we learn that one of the last things they did before filing for bankruptcy was setting aside two and a half billion dollars for performance bonuses for the staff of the New York office. The very people who put the firms money into worthless investments, who ran a hundred year old company into the ground, made sure that before they filed for bankruptcy, they squirreled away more of their investors money to pay themselves bonuses

    SMH

    Like


  47. DA and CN,
    I want to address both of your thoughts.

    DA:
    My grandparents got married in their early 20s, as I recall; having said that, though, if one researches African American history – Gannon’s gonna like this – it is not unusual in the least to find girls who were quite young who had children, I mean the same age if not a bit younger than Bristol Palin. Again, the keyword was MARRIAGE.

    As for the lack of marriagable Black men, the ause is directly attributable to Feminism, which as we all know is closely allied to far Leftism. Whiskey recently mentioned the grand shift in Black America as seen in its pop culture, and mentioned as an example the sweet ballads sung by Marvin Gaye in the early to mid 60s. My reply was that the same man, Gaye – who I greatly admire, now – had a completely different sound and vibe, less than a decade later. If Gaye can be used as a wa to see the change Black America had gone though, it then gives us a sense of just how hard and fast Feminism had rocked Black America, and this is something that is always swept under the rug.

    The Marvn Gaye of Let’s Get It On would have been run outta town on a rail in the Black America of the early 60s-late 50s, because he would have been seen as no good. Black mothers and grandmothers especially, would have worked overtime to keep the girls of the family away from such men, and if they did come up preggers by such men, they were sent down South for a time, if not indefinitely. What made it possible for Gaye of the 70s to even exist, let alone be an icon?

    In part, Feminism, which includes, as Whiskey rightly points out, the allure of the urban core of America, and as well, the Pill and Abortion.

    Lastly, my grandfather was certainly no fluke. Again, you don’t have strong roots in this country as a Black person, so I invite you to ask around. It was long known in Black America that one of the best things to happen to a Black man was doing his “20” in the service, then getting a stable job working for the city or the Post Offce. Millions of Black men did just that.

    CN –
    I think the major reason why more Americans don’t ride bikes is because America was never setup to be such a country. T’s recent visit to Europe fleshes all of this out. Another reason is marketing. The Big Three automakers pushed the gov’t to build highways so they could sell their cars to the public, and i the years immediately following WW2 people did just that. In fact, I remember as a kid growing up, my grandparents made a big deal out of taking the navy blue Chrysler Imperial out for a Sunday Drive. It was part of the culture. BTW, in case DA’s reading along, my grandparents bought that car, cash, off the showroom floor.

    Moreover places like the UK and Germany have shown what highschool educations can really do once one gets the BS out of the system. The Dept of Edu should be abolished. It helps no one. The university system needs to be gutted. Two and four year tech schools, with an emphasis on the latter, should be the norm these days, and we need to bring back tracking with a vengence in schools to prepare young people, especially males, to be wage earners so they can support a family and be attractive mates for the girls.

    Which brings me to another point. Whiskey’s point about low level arranged marriages, which was what the Church socials and Sock Hops of the 40s, 50s and 60s, weren’t bad ideas, and certainly better than what we have now. We need to bring them back at least in part.

    Simply put, our American Idealism has gotten to a point that it is too hard to make real, because it isn’t based in reality. People simply must have reduced expectations of what is possible and doable.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  48. @ # 19 roissy

    “The government (state of WI, Soc. Security) was once my Daddy-substitute.

    you are the problem.

    Financial wreckage is accompanied by emotional, mental, and family wreckage.

    cry me a river.
    your poor judgment or bad luck is not my moral crisis””

    I’m not certain of your message here.
    -random desire to bludgeon?
    -investment in human capital should derive from sources other than US or state gov’t?.
    -roissy lacks compassion for, or even consideration of others?
    -advocation of brutal financial darwinism or anarchy?
    -advocation of libertarianism?

    Like


  49. DA,
    No doubt there are man in the hood who ain’t marriage material; but you’re leaving out an important point – there are quite a few women who ain’t marriage material either. Let’s not loose sight of that fact.

    Again, Feminism allowed the structures and yes, in many instances, strictures of society to fall away. Again I refer to Whiskey’s very insightful essay series in this regard on his blog.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  50. If more Americans completed their first two years at a community college

    I’ve always had some admiration of the Quebecois education system where high school ends in the equivalent of junior year of high school, and senior year of HS and first year of college are done is a specialized community college like institution called a CEGEP. Tuition is relatively inexpensive, and pre-university preparation programs and vocational programs are available. In Quebec, graduation from CEGEP is required for entrance into any university.

    I would suspect that mandatory community college along with the elimination of the last year of high school would probably save money as money can be directed towards the smaller student body who will attend the community college over the larger high school pool, and it saves money on subsidizing and propping up more expensive 4 year institutions and having students go to such institutions unprepared and fail out.

    If all Americans started to save 10% of their income, how would that change the economy?

    Some would argue that increased savings would create more money for investment opportunities and reduce the need to finance via foreign credit inflows. Some have argued on whether decreased taxes on savings vehicles or consumption taxes (i.e VAT tax of say 15-25%) with a corresponding decrease in income taxes as a compensating factor.

    What would happen to the economy if more Americans only owned one low limit credit card (3,000 max)

    The consumer end of the economy tanks and retailers go into bankrupcy. The end of big home equity loans with interest rates lower than credit cards is why the consumer end of the economy has disappeared.

    BTW, I have several credit cards despite my year income of $12,000, but that’s because the cards are used for different purposes and some simply sit unused. The only revolving debt is from a semester of community college, and my recent trip to San Francisco was paid for within one month of the trip.

    If more unmarried Americans lived with their parents until marriage, how would that affect housing prices and rental rates?

    An even larger decline in birthrates along with weaker sales of condos and low rentals for apartments which leads to low prices for such products. OTOH, that would pump up the consumer side of the economy if the rent/mortgage money is reapplied towards consumer spending. Living with my parents paying minimal rent would probably create a luxurious lifestyle for twenty-somethings like myself, hence the twixter trend of the past few years.

    Why aren’t more Americans willing to ride bikes?

    Several reasons can easily explain why bikes aren’t popular. They’re not climate controlled like cars, and our increasingly aging population is too weak or “chronically ill” to bike around. The main reason is that our cities and suburbs just aren’t designed for it. Plus, you’re generally stinky after any spirited biking session, and Americans are obsessed with personal cleanliness in a way that Europeans aren’t.

    Like


  51. Anony,
    If I may, the current crisis shows everyone just what happens when in the name of “compassion” we toss hard earned wisdom to the wind. Feminism and the Left in general thrives more on feelings and “compassion”, and not on facts or even historical precedent. The USA is an experiment in SELF GOVERNMENT, meaning that people MUST lookout for themselves. We PURSUE happiness, we are not entitled to it. That means that there will indeed be winners and losers in life. We should not rescue people from themselves, and Roissy is 100% correct in his assessment, and especially wrt women getting the right to vote, because they will always vote in more security, meaning more and more gov’t encroachment into our lives, while at the same time a kind of “all the pleasure, none of the guilt” measures. The American Experiment works, at least thus far, because the Founding Fathers accepted the highs and lows of Human Nature and tried to craft a system of gov’t that took this into account. Every other system of gov’t on the other hand, tried to create something that was fundamentally out of step with Human Nature. They have all failed.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  52. L7, The good part of that post is the part before what you quoted. The part describing how we got in to the mess we’re in. The part you quoted was the bad part of his post. Andrew Cuomo and Barney Frank getting Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to make more loans to people who can’t pay them back is not “deregulation”. FM+FM spending millions to lobby DC on their own behalf is not a sign of a unregulated industry. Half the mortgages in the country passing through the hands of two “private” companies with government guarantees is not the free market.

    Needless to say, a 700 Giga-Dollar bailout plan wouldn’t be part of the free market either.

    Like


  53. to #52 Mm

    “and especially wrt women getting the right to vote, because they will always vote in more security, meaning more and more gov’t encroachment into our lives.””

    I understand the “marriage gap”, but you are advocating disenfranchisement, which has it’s own complications.

    Like


  54. Greenspan keeping the prime rate so low for so long caused some of this too

    Greenspan did that to avoid a recession.
    Micheal saidFortunes have been lost by the CEOs of Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers, not to mention the employees who owned 30% of the company. People will be going to jail soon

    This makes me happy^^^.

    Hope saidI personally think women are not fit to be public leaders or to vote, really
    Tell me you are joking hope…please…
    Whiskey saidWomen have a risk aversion and short-decision horizon
    Ah so right… I guess thats why so many men are willing to float the risk, and sleep with a woman who isn’t on BC without a condom. Taking a chance to lose 20% of his income for 18+ years.

    Nate saidJesus, we are 1 trillion short, and we are waging wars!?!

    *somewhere in one of his wife’s McMansions, McCain is smiling at his well written script of excuses for his plunge into Iran in the year 2010. He shakes from anticpation for the day he will ask Ahmadinejad, with the help of a translator and hearing aid, “how my ass taste bi.tch”*

    Like


  55. Anony,
    No, I’m not. I am in favor of giving women the vote. Just saying what’s likely to happen, given women’s natural inclinations, especially among single women. Again, Roissy’s analysis is spot on in this respect.

    Salaam,
    Mu

    Like


  56. ^^^ Wow Mu’Min.

    And* then some men wonder why many women only go for alpha males. If you have to deal with a man why not go for the best since all of them are pains in the azz after a few hrs.

    Like


  57. No doubt there are man in the hood who ain’t marriage material; but you’re leaving out an important point – there are quite a few women who ain’t marriage material either. Let’s not loose sight of that fact.

    I agree on that front. A woman with two kids with two different fathers isn’t much attractive as a partner, and a man with two kids with two different women is reluctant to add more kids to his responsibilities. Plus, when you’re at the bottom, it’s easy to want to hold out for a better partner who may never come than to marry a partner who reminds one of personal failures and low societal ranking.

    As for the lack of marriagable Black men, the ause is directly attributable to Feminism, which as we all know is closely allied to far Leftism.

    While one can blame welfare, I’ve viewed the decline in high-paying blue collar work for “low IQ” black men with no other alternatives as the culprit. While an alpha male sans employment can be attractive, a beta male without a solid job is simply undesirable, and it simply reinforces women towards alpha males and faux-alpha male drug dealers and gang leaders.

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  58. I think I may need to take a break today. The hatred of goodlooking women here is just to much.

    Stay in your lane and you will find a good woman. If you are a 6 don’t expect to a woman who is 10 unless you are wealthy.

    Like


  59. ^^^The same can be said for women in the reverese.

    Like


  60. CN,
    Roissy made the point that single and never married women overwhelmingly vote Democrat. He is not the first or only person to note this. Is that not true? And, historically speaking, is it not true that the Dems are the party of increase gov’t involvement and higher taxation?

    Similarly, married women with kids, tend to vote GOP. Again, is that not true? And could it be, because these women already have a provider, ie, their hubbies?

    One of the great things I like about this site is that it actively works to strip away the contrivances, “pretty lies” as Roissy puts it, that we try to tell ourselves. But as the current crisis both on Wall St and DC show us, no one is helped by any of that in the end. Wouldn’t it be better for all involved to grapple with the truth of things as they are, and not as we would wish them to be?

    The bottomline is, that a key bloc in the Democrat Party are single women. And they repeatedly vote for more Gov’t involvement and higher taxation. Tiger has called this kind of situation, especially among single moms, Bureagomy, if I spelled that right in essence, turning to the Gov’t to do the things that your hubbie should be doing.

    Now, the question is – is such an analysis, right or wrong, and why?

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  61. Again, the keyword was MARRIAGE.

    Your parents lucked out in having a solid employment and prudent financial behaviour and an entrepreneurial spirit. The problem is that your average person, particularly some young black men and women, are lacking in such traits, and having children at such a young age will cripple their financially success in the short and long-term. They should hold out until their incomes have considerably increased to have children, or they should avoid having children in the first place.

    Moreover places like the UK and Germany have shown what highschool educations can really do once one gets the BS out of the system.

    One could argue that European countries have solid high schools because they have few low IQ black students who pull down averages, but most others have argued that centralized curricula designed by Ministries of Education and tracking systems that ensure that only a small number of students go to university programs with the rest going to high school or vocational schools.

    Two and four year tech schools, with an emphasis on the latter, should be the norm these days, and we need to bring back tracking with a vengence

    The problem is that middle class Americans view college degrees as a right to assert their status, employers only want college degrees to weed out unwanted employees, and nobody wants to do vocational work because it’s “nigger” work. Plus, tracking will simply lead to a small number of blacks in universities and a large pool in the lower tracks, and that will bother certain people…

    Like


  62. Tell me you are joking hope…please…

    I think most people in general aren’t fit to lead or vote. But democracy is the system we have, and it’s better in many ways than the other systems that came before it. About voting in particular, I think you mistake that action for democracy itself.

    A real democracy is forged by revolutionary uprising, through violence and overthrowing of a former unjust government (much how America was established). It is maintained and upheld by the threat of an armed citizenry, hence the right to bear arms.

    How many women would be willing to throw away their lives for such a thing as defending American democracy? Some obviously do, as they enlist in the military, etc. but the general trend is that women flourish the most in stable civilizations.

    Also, remember that a lot of people do not vote. There has been a trend of decreasing voter turnout in most established democracies since the 1960s, which is after women gained the right to vote. Barely 50% of registered voters go out for presidential elections. The population segment with the highest income and education have the highest voter turnout in the US. They also hold much of the power.

    While American women are able to vote and to run for office, much of their real power still comes from their bodies, youth and beauty (the highest paid women are models or actresses), or in some cases large inheritances from their families. The push for “equality,” in truth, does very little for most American women.

    The test and extension of political power will be by violence. Should it in fact come to that, the violence will be done by men, not women. The woman’s right to “vote” rests directly on the woman’s ability to persuade men to allow her the right to vote, and to protect that right through implicit or explicit violence.

    Don’t forget the laws of nature.

    Like


  63. CN,
    I think the point so many of us have been saying is that there have been forces in the culture that have fundamentally changed the way the sexes interact. Women by and large simply do not care as much about the physical attributes of males beynd a certain point, and rightly so, since they have a different agenda than do males. The whole Alpha thing has more to do with the ability to defend the home and bring needed resources to the table. At leas in a classical sense, so to speak.

    It is in the nature of a male to seek beauty in a woman; all men seek this. Whether or not they actually get it is another thing, but they all seek and will seek it. This explains why utter dweebs will try for the knockout woman. One y complain about it, but it will not change, it is part of who and what we are.

    To go to DA’s point about supposedly low IQ Black men and the loss of blue collar jobs, I am reluctant to buy into that theory for a number of reasons. We have to remember that a college educated Black man in our time still has an unemployment rate twice that of his White counterparts, and highly educated Black men in the past often could find no more work than that of Pullman porters. But there’s something else that accounts for the palpable contempt for “proles” and the Black Middle Class played a role in this as well:

    The ever rising expectations of Americans, that everyone would be middle class and live such a lifestyle as depicted on TV. There is nothing wrong with being a blue collar man, it does not take away from your basic dignity as a person, and we have done serious damage to ourselves as a result of this kind of thinking, which has had demonstrable impact on public policy in the form of educational focus, with disasterous results. This is aother reason why I think the Palin nomination was so important, and yet again I must turn to Whiskey’s keen insights on this point which appear on his blog. Todd Palin’s presence in the campaign, even while not running himself, has put a huge spotlight on a major problem that bedevils Black and White America alike.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  64. Mu’Min

    You’ve got my vote for whatever you want to run for.

    B. Hussein Obama, the most pussified Dem candidate yet (far more so than Hillary), would bring about all the worst things of which you write.

    Like


  65. DA,
    You have hit the nail on the head; many Whites don’t want to explicitly own up to the fact that the reason why hey shy away from the TRades is because its become associated with “Nigger’s Work”. And that in part is what is behind the complete meltdown by so many on the Left of the presence of Todd Palin, too.

    Hope, here, here. I knew there was a reason why I liked you. You’re hubbie is a lucky man.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  66. From glib outsider perspective: republicans are crackpots who don’t know economics or history?

    I said right-wing crackpots, not Republicans, but the crazy wingers do have undue influence in the Republican party.

    It always impresses me how effective they are at propaganda, though. Just like many Americans still believe Saddam was behind 9/11, I’m sure many Americans will end up believing this unregulated Wall Street free-for-all collapsed because of….overregulation. Up is down, down is up, I read it in the talking points!

    Like


  67. Thanks, Sestamibi. Who knows what the future may bring…

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  68. Similarly, married women with kids, tend to vote GOP. Again, is that not true?

    I don’t know.

    DA said:Plus, tracking will simply lead to a small number of blacks in universities and a large pool in the lower tracks, and that will bother certain people…

    If blks changed culturally, we could/would see many more poor blks in college.

    Like


  69. You know there’s actually very good econometric evidence for your conjecture about the effects of the extension of the franchise on political outcomes.

    See for example John Lott and Lawrence Kenny, 1999, Journal of Political Economy, “Did Women’s Suffrage Change the Size and Scope of Government?” Their abstract copied below:

    This paper examines the growth of government during this century as a result of giving women the right to vote. Using cross-sectional time-series data for 1870–1940, we examine state government expenditures
    and revenue as well as voting by U.S. House and Senate
    state delegations and the passage of a wide range of different state laws. Suffrage coincided with immediate increases in state government expenditures and revenue and more liberal voting patterns for federal representatives, and these effects continued growing over time as more women took advantage of the franchise. Contrary to many recent suggestions, the gender gap is not something that has arisen since the 1970s, and it helps explain why American government started growing when it did.

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  70. Getting pregnant as a teen is one of the best thing that can happen to a middle class girl today.

    Provided that the boy isn’t a complete dreg, that he will get shotgunned into marriage, and will learn responsibility real quick. Under his father-in-laws’ watchful eye if necessary.

    The young couple is likely then to have one or two more children before they turn 28 or so. By the time she is in her mid-30s, th ekids will be grown up and she will have her whole life ahead of her.

    Alas, she wil have missed out on many shags and bakakkes with the college JV lacrosse team.

    Exactly.

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  71. Getting pregnant as a teen is one of the best thing that can happen to a middle class girl today.

    That precludes her from going to a high end selective or Ivy League college where she will find a career that will give her access to high ranking white or Jewish males with power, prestige, and/or money.

    That’ll happen only if she looks sufficiently good.

    Like


  72. Hope saidIt is maintained and upheld by the threat of an armed citizenry, hence the right to bear arms.

    What can a man with a gun vs a bomb? Times have changed and technology being what it is, a gun isn’t going to do much against a tank or bomb. Although, God protect the people of Palestine for trying with rocks and pebbles.

    Hope, should only those with high IQs, property, money be allowed to vote? Please lets not go back to that way of looking at human beings.
    I am well aware of the low voter turnout. Some places like Turkey and Israel have much higher turnout. In Austrialla it’s illegal to not vote.
    At the present, American culture is very anti-intellectual. If you want to make people more interested in the more important things in life, make Paris Hilton and the like uncool. Why is US weekly Star and the other tabloids rags placed at the checkout counter. When I was a child, I can recall seeing Time and other news magazines in their place. People and the Enquirer were the only tabloids I can recall, and I don’t think people was so celebrity focused then..

    Am I the only one(dougjnn) who has noticed that American pop culture has truly taken a turn for the worse in the last eight years?

    Should it in fact come to that, the violence will be done by men, not women.
    Very true, men like violence in a way that most women don’t.

    Which of the two sexes does the clean up after men have waged their wars? Read about the women of Rwanda adopting orphaned children from different tribes.

    Like


  73. John Lott’s piece on how the female vote altered the site of government can be downloaded here:

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=160530

    Like


  74. hope:While American women are able to vote and to run for office, much of their real power still comes from their bodies, youth and beauty (the highest paid women are models or actresses)

    So if I need help or want a bill pased I should do what Forrest Gump’s mother did to get him into regular classes>

    Like


  75. Forgive me hope if I come across a bit sacrastic today.

    Like


  76. Mu’Min —

    I have not seen any evidence that Astrology can predict the future. Meanwhile, quant guys like my Prof at some un-named school in the South made enough to retire from Wall Street, producing models that look for arbitrage opportunities and trading on them. That may not be much of a prediction, but it’s a verifiable model — it either works or doesn’t.

    Your are quite correct on MARRIAGE. Justice Thomas credit’s his Grandfather’s stable presence and jobs as providing for him after his father abandoned his mother. The tragedy of the Black Community is shoveling child raising onto elderly grandparents, something spreading to the White Community. As always, African Americans are the canary in America’s coal mine. [I have a hard time buying DA’s “low IQ” for African Americans problems as a whole, given the success of the Tuskegee Airmen. They *DID* lose bombers, though not many, in the most stressful and High-IQ job around — fighter pilot. Up against the elite (for a while, anyway) of Hitler’s Luftwaffe. They did this flying two models of planes — the P-47 Thunderbolts, and then the P-52 Mustangs.]

    Hope — I don’t think it’s either reasonable or desireable from a social perspective to deny women the right to vote. But … I don’t see culture changing either, any time soon, since women benefit short term from the culture wars, along with elites. It’s useful to note that middle class women like Palin, Meir, and Thatcher had been invested in the future, and so had considerations for building a middle class society or defending it.

    The problem is, that female voting patterns can be “tipped” when most women their peer age are single mothers or single. That defines female culture and presents huge social pressures, like say attending a Steelers game as a visiting team’s fan. You can’t really express your feelings freely.

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  77. — many Whites don’t want to explicitly own up to the fact that the reason why hey shy away from the TRades is because its become associated with “Nigger’s Work”.

    Are you sure about that? I’ve never sensed this attitude in anyone I know. To me, skilled trades — even relatively low skill ones, like carpet installattion — are very much a province of ‘rednecky’ White men.

    If anything, this is what yuppie-aspiring White youths try to avoid: any association with being of “the Wrong Kind of White People.”

    Like


  78. Chic —

    In the West, it’s too far to work to ride bikes, and there are few facilities to change/shower. Moreover, ever ride back at night? On the street? Asking to get killed.

    Savings? People don’t because doing so signals that you are a poor prospect, if you are a man, for women. For women, it means forgoing beauty/clothes that give you an edge over rivals for the Alpha Male. Same reasons mitigate against living with parents. No sex. Particularly for men.

    Same for Community College — the best social aspects for finding a mate, or even casual sex, particularly for HS loser men, is to be at a four year school, for four years. To participate in some girl’s drunken “Mistake” as Superbad put it.

    Yeah, guys go into debt to meet women. It’s that pathetic.

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  79. ^^^and women for men whiskey.

    Do you really think saving 10% is to much to ask.

    Like


  80. I don’t think vocational work is considered so much “nigger work” as it is considered “prole work.” A lot of the blue collar Italian (that is, guidos) and Irish guys in my high school for example were in vocational school. It’s more of a class thing that transcends being just a “black thing.”

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  81. 59 chic:

    Stay in your lane and you will find a good woman. If you are a 6 don’t expect to a woman who is 10 unless you are wealthy.

    But I thought love was blind and that it’s what’s on the inside that counts…

    On another note, I’ve been getting ulcers over the way the left-liberal media (a redundancy, I know), in the form of Tina Fey is trashing the image of Palin and all she represents.

    (That’s not to say I wouldn’t relish the opportunity for me and my friends to run a train on that ho Fey)

    Like


  82. The “Guido” thing must start in New Jersey, as here in the DC Metro Area I can go for months without seeing one. Years, actually.

    Most blue collar whites here are vaguely of Southern Scotch-Irish descent. Southern Maryland, Maryland’s Eastern Shore, and northern Virginia beyond the yuppie Beltway ring are still very much the South.

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  83. If blks changed culturally, we could/would see many more poor blks in college.

    If a world sans Affirmative Action, but with academic support of children by black parents with safe home environments, while there may be fewer black Ivy League graduates, I suspect that there would be more black college students and graduates because of our ability to strip mine the best students or good students with solid academic habits.

    To go to DA’s point about supposedly low IQ Black men and the loss of blue collar jobs, I am reluctant to buy into that theory for a number of reasons.

    I guess one could argue that I’m a whore of theory presented by William Julius Wilson in “When Work Disappears”. One of theories his theories also implies that the “old” black neighhbourhoods of mixed income levels created an environment where the middle class black population served as an example for poorer black population. Once the middle class black population fled in the 1960s, there was nobody left to shame the lower classes, and eventually, those in the ghetto became isolated from the “real world” with no idea of how to function outside of the ghetto which ruined their chances for employment.

    That’ll happen only if she looks sufficiently good.

    Even if she can’t marry into the elite, I want my daughter to go the highest ranking college possible so she can escape prolehood, and restore my family to greatness and to finally achieve the goal of joining the elite.

    If my daughter is under the age of 25 without a college degree, she will be going to an abortion clinic regardless of her desires to keep the child.

    I have a hard time buying DA’s “low IQ” for African Americans problems as a whole

    I thought you were a race realist?

    Are you sure about that? I’ve never sensed this attitude in anyone I know.

    From what I’ve seen, a lot of the skilled trades work has been mostly been done by so-called rednecks or guidos, but very few black people. The phrase “nigger work” essentially captures the idea by certain classes of the middle class here in New York that such physical work is left for non-whites and whites who are too “stupid” or “lazy” to go to college to get proper white collar jobs.

    BTW, IIRC, some construction unions up around NYC have been accused of not employing black labour. From what I’ve been told as anecdotes, the union workers tend to have negative views of black labour and have complains of them being lazy and incompetent.

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  84. the idea by certain classes of the middle class here in New York that such physical work is left for non-whites and whites who are too “stupid” or “lazy” to go to college to get proper white collar jobs.

    I have a few friends from the Old Country up in New Jersey who work in various trades and light manufacturing (they came to the US as adults, unlike me as a teen). From what I gather, a lot of Eastern Europeans and legal Hispanic immigrants do blue collar work up around the NYC area.

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  85. Black men got the vote before white women in this country.

    Switzerland didn’t give women the right to vote until the early 1970’s. That is a serious country.

    The woman’s vote has been a disaster in this country. Ain’t funny.

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  86. One rationale — a correct one in my opinion — for not giving women the vote is that the family is the basic unit of society, not the individual. And the man represents the family in public.

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  87. Whiskey, you have not answered my qustion: have you actually studied astrology in any measure-its history, the major key figures, etc? And there is some evidence that astrology predicts the future, and with the record Wall St’s been having these days, I think the least voices in condemnation of astrology should come from that place.

    T, Race & Class in America are, if not virtually identical, very closely intertwined. In many ways, one serves as a proxy for the other. Not many people, particularly Whiter People, want to openly say this because it disturbs the Cognitive Dissonance of their other correct, ahem, views wrt Race and so on.
    Chic Noir, Hope’s point was that the threat of violence is what keeps Democracies going and more importantly, working correctly. Those who have skin in the game are more likely not only to participate but to get ugly if need be. Women may do the former but go MIA on the latter, in the main.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  88. The ever rising expectations of Americans, that everyone would be middle class and live such a lifestyle as depicted on TV.
    I agree. I had many debates with people about this. Some people really think that it’s possible that all 300 million Americans can become millionaires.

    educated Black men in the past often could find no more work than that of Pullman porters
    with exceptions
    Excellent point. I’m thinking of A. Phillip Randolph.

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  89. Thanks, Chic Noir.

    Also: I just want to make another point. In our Feminized times right now, we always view Violence as automatically Bad. It is not. Violence, like anything else, is a tool that can be used for good or bad. It is a part, a necessary part, of the Circle of Life, the Human Condition, and this is yet another reason why I really liked what Hope said in response to you Chic, on the role and meaning of Democracy.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  90. The real problem with the skilled trades is that no matter how well paid some of them may be, jobs in those fields are highly subject to cyclical shifts in the economy, if my understanding is correct.

    To change the subject: Roissy speaks of the conditions necessary for a depression like that of the 1930s, but I believe he has left one condition out. Was there not a period of serious deflation in that era, as the economy and productivity slowed? Is that not the marker of a true depression, as distinct from a recession?

    I am looking for information here, as I am not very well-informed about economic issues. I welcome correction if I’m wrong, but please be polite about it!

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  91. “If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.” — Abraham Maslow

    W. T. F.

    Girls may have rooted for greater minority homeownership in the abstract, but they sure weren’t the primary gender among the government-sanctioned bastards responsible for FORCING lenders to lower their standards, thus starting the bubble. Girls may like to gamble now and then, but they’re rarely interested in the industrial scale risk-taking that allowed Wall Street to convert what could have just been a housing problem into something that could bring down our entire fucking economy.

    Roissy, your conclusion was pathetic. You’re better than this.

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  92. Dave A,
    I most assuredly am a “Race Man”, which is kinda the Black way of saying “Race Realist”. Its just that I have problems accepting on its face, the Race and IQ debate as is currently presented.

    Strange, we both want to present to White America a different face of Black America, but we go about it in very different ways. I wish to prove to Whites that I can outwork them, outsmart them, out-balls them, you name it. That I can take a highschool diploma, w/no assets, and turn it into a true Success story. That I’m every bit as studied and up on many issues as my White counterparts, and that happens after working 65-plus hours a week, on my feet. That I don’t tow the Democrat party line, but I still hold my Conservative White brethren to task on many of their ideas, racial and otherwise.

    There’s a part of me that cringes at your musings, Dave. For example your constant putting down of Black folk on the basis of low IQ, or even yourself wrt dating and mating, and now, your hypothetical scenario involving your daughter, oreven in how you regarded your own mom. All of that bothers me in a visceral way. I’ve never heard Chris Tracy, Chic Noir or T of The Rawness speak that way about themselves or Black folk in general, and to be sure, they all have their fair share of issues with Black folks as well. But I respect your right to them.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  93. Mu’mim said:Lastly, my grandfather was certainly no fluke. Again, you don’t have strong roots in this country as a Black person, so I invite you to ask around. It was long known in Black America that one of the best things to happen to a Black man was doing his “20″ in the service, then getting a stable job working for the city or the Post Offce. Millions of Black men did just that

    I have long roots in America so I can cosign with this.A postal worker was a highly looked upon job,as was being a school teacher in the blk community.

    Mu’mim-no rank pulling in the comment section.

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  94. @
    Mu’ Min- DA will grate on you. I have had a few web arguments with DA. Most of them have been around the horrible names and things he has said about blk women.

    Part of me thinks DA is an act. I’ve been around self hating blks & even whites and Asians before but DA takes it to the extreme. Or maybe DA is just letting himself be free since we are online.
    .

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  95. Anon and DOJ,
    Every job is subject to market fluctuations. Just ask anyone who’s white collor gig has been outsourced to India or Ireland.

    DOJ,
    I think Roissy’s point was a valid one, and since has been backed up by information provided by T. There is a “feminized” mindset we now live in, that says that because there are those who cannot afford a mortage, the rules must b changed so they can, and so forth.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  96. 97 Mu’Min

    There is a “feminized” mindset we now live in, that says that because there are those who cannot afford a mortage, the rules must b changed so they can, and so forth.

    Okay, I’ll grant that part, and assign it maybe 25% of the responsibility for our current debacle.

    That still leaves the 75% that only men competing with each other to scoop pennies off of train tracks could have brought us.

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  97. DOJ,
    That there have been now nd historically, greedy men is a given. But there have been ways to deal with that, from firing them and locking them up, to puttg spears in their backs or giving them a one way ticket to the gallows or the guillotine. The point is, and what Roissy’s speaking to in this and other posts he’s made on the state of the markets, that we now exist in a time when Macro issues are governed by and cater to Female interests. And Female interests tend to run less risk, svaing people from themselves, “fairness” and especially, “compassion”. These are fine values and insights when left to the Micro realm – the home, where they need to be. But they are disasterous when unleashed in the larger world outside the home, ie, the Macro.

    For all their bluster out sex roles being the product of “the patriarchy” and being mere fictions in the Public Mind, the Feminist Lobby are giving proof every night and day that Women ARE indeed fundamentally different than men. Their sustaind voting record, proves this.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  98. Chic Noir,

    Re: David Alexander – I don’t know what to make of him, frankly. He could indeed bu just a ruse, or he could be 100% honest about himself. Either way, I’ve never come accross such a person, Black or White. B thanks for the backstory of sorts. Personally I think his comments on Black Women are whacked. I’ve met many beautiful Black women, and scores of dog ugly White ones. Black women have their flaws, but so too do White women – just scan though any of Roissy’s archives for evidence of that fact. He regularly speaks on the flaws, rightly I might add, of many White women.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  99. Chicnoir, you are understandably upset that some people want to take away some of your rights. You believe that the right to vote is a fundamental one. I don’t necessarily disagree. But remember, I have a very different background and lived in a nondemocratic — nay, authoritarian — society and knew it first hand.

    This government has over the years slowly taken away several rights, with not so much protest as over the recent bailout legislation. Simple example, one cannot try to take a flight without getting hassled or even strip searched these days. Several pieces of legislation have taken some individual privacy as well. Tell me, what recourse do you really have? Yes, you can vote, but what do you vote on? Whom do you vote for? After a certain point of blatantly ignoring the people’s “votes,” what else can the people do?

    “The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty…. And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.

    The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.”

    — Thomas Jefferson

    What can a man with a gun vs a bomb? Times have changed and technology being what it is, a gun isn’t going to do much against a tank or bomb.

    Who draws up the engineering plans to build the tanks and bombs? Who rides in the tanks? Who detonates the bomb? With respect to violence, men are always on the cutting edge. Tanks can be stolen, computer systems can be hacked into, and most technologies rely on a certain degree of maintenance — and men, generally, do these things. Even trained professional armies suffer casualties when there is local resistance, as is frequently seen in modern warfare of occupation scenarios. It is far more difficult to occupy a population that is rebellious, armed and has knowledge and access to weaponry.

    I know a little bit of that world and the depth of men’s fascination with deadly weapons and killing, but I cannot begin to feel their sort of passion for it. Do you know the roughness of boot camp? Men don’t necessarily enjoy it, but they find that their masculine identity and ego are increased by such toughening of their bodies and willpower. Women’s bodies are designed for other functions, and our psyches simply are wired differently and recoil at the thought of killing massive numbers of people. Self-defense is one thing, but to kill for an ideal? That is something else entirely.

    Hope, should only those with high IQs, property, money be allowed to vote? Please lets not go back to that way of looking at human beings.

    My mantra has always been to keep one’s eye level with reality. I am not an advocate of aristocracies or oligarchies, as I am just a lowly peasant. But I do try to observe the real world, and I think women are fooling ourselves with the idea that we can equal men in political power. We have far less violent tendencies, less ambition and drive for politics — at the same time, that softness and protectionist streak is what makes us distinctively female.

    I never said that I know exactly the right course of action, by the way. I don’t advocate disenfranchisement, merely expressed my opinion that women are not fit for leadership or voting. On this point my husband disagrees with me, and cites the example of Spain attempting to invade England when Elizabeth reigned, perceiving weakness in a country ruled by a female — of course, Spain failed. He also says that he would sooner fight for a queen than a king.

    In any case, people will vote, and I do not have the power or inclination to stop them. The people who do have that power will only resort to certain tactics like voter machine fraud if they must, but would much rather have willing followers, because power is often extracted from the adherents. A leader without loyal followers is no leader at all, and a religion without the devout believers is no religion either.

    Am I the only one(dougjnn) who has noticed that American pop culture has truly taken a turn for the worse in the last eight years?

    Many older models of leadership follow a familial pattern, a king and a queen, replacement figures for father and mother. That was when people were literally under the protection of the state as if they are children. The newer model of western liberalism and democracy emphasizes individuality and personal responsibility, but at the same time we are more stunted than ever in growth, stuck as perpetual children, so many of us are slowly putting ourselves back into an empire or fiefdom without realizing it.

    In history, cultures grow decadent around the same time that living conditions improve and wealth accumulates. America has been prosperous in recent decades, and living on credit allows almost anyone to afford a bit of that comfortable lifestyle. There’s a quote describing what happens after wonderful conditions are established in society: “the price we paid was the price men have always paid for achieving a paradise in this life — we went soft, we lost our edge.” In civilization we become domesticated, soft, lose our keen senses and our wildness, much as house dogs that become dependent on their owners.

    It is why many men themselves vote against the right to bear arms. Like women, they also want the nice, comfortable life of civilization and peace, where they rest easy with their beers and martinis, watch beautiful women stroll by and gyrate to music in air-conditioned lounges or on the ocean beach. Who would want to trade a life of recreation and party for a life of facing constant hardship, threat of starvation and struggle to survive? Yet in this very Western prosperity you will find symptoms of all that you decry: cultural decline, anti-intellectualism, sexual promiscuity, and breakdown of tradition and family.

    Once again I have no solutions, only observations.

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  100. The “Guido” thing must start in New Jersey, as here in the DC Metro Area I can go for months without seeing one. Years, actually.

    I’d argue that the Guido belt stretches from the ends of the Philadelphia and New York City Metro areas with a small outpost around Providence. If by some quirk you immigranted to New York, it’s possible that you may have ended up in that sub-culture as it’s somewhat popular with some Eastern and Southern European immigrants.

    Most blue collar whites here are vaguely of Southern Scotch-Irish descent.

    Interestingly, my exposure to Scots-Irish/Scottish ancestry was via Wellesley Queen and Canadian Mistress.

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  101. When it comes to creation of invention of real things, yes, it’s usually against society’s interest to indulge the “female interest” in running less risk. But that has nothing to do with our current problem, which was primarily caused by unrestricted male risk-taking (what do you think was the gender ratio among Lehman Brothers traders, or at the other big investment banks?).

    Roissy would probably have just needed to wait a few months before a problem that could legitimately be blamed more on women than men came up. Misattributing blame now just lowers his credibility.

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  102. Black women have their flaws, but so too do White women – just scan though any of Roissy’s archives for evidence of that fact. He regularly speaks on the flaws, rightly I might add, of many White women.

    Salaam
    Mu

    I agree 100% but to someone like DA, sadly whiter is always better. Even* when it’s toothless &,400lbs.

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  103. Mu, why do you think I was so shocked when DA asked who the gorgeous woman was in my avartar? Cause DA has made it clear that he hates blk women.

    end of rant.

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  104. Tupac Chopra
    59 chic:

    Stay in your lane and you will find a good woman. If you are a 6 don’t expect to a woman who is 10 unless you are wealthy.

    But I thought love was blind and that it’s what’s on the inside that counts…
    My handsome Italian husband, please don’t be angry with me.
    It was my fustration speaking.

    one question
    Would you happily marry a 4?

    (That’s not to say I wouldn’t relish the opportunity for me and my friends to run a train on that ho Fey)

    Please please please don’t tell me you do this type of stuff to women. Please don’t
    In my opinion, even if a woman consents to this, it’s still a type of twisted rape.

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  105. People respond to incentives, but I don’t want a collapse.

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  106. Part of me thinks DA is an act.

    I thought for a while that DA is an act too, either put on by a young liberal White guy or an older feminist woman, but now I’m pretty convinced he’s real. It’s nearly impossible to sustain a false personality for a longer period of time.

    What US-born African Americans might be picking up on is his Haitian background, with its strains of White and Elite Mulatto lines. It may include some class-type snobbery toward Black Americans.

    I knew nothing about that whole Haitian thing until he explained it at length in some of his earlier posts.

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  107. Speaking of the Islands, I also know a Trinidadian guy – Black, looks like a light-skinned Spike Lee, but insists he’s not Black. Says things that would make a Grand Kleagle blush.

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  108. hope post 101 really moved me. I’m not giving up my right to vote but you made many excellent points.

    PA, the one drop rule is unique to Americans. I was explaining it to two Australians, and they were shocked.

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  109. What US-born African Americans might be picking up on is his Haitian background, with its strains of White and Elite Mulatto lines

    PA is blk???

    😯

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  110. I’m Black like Bill Clinton 😉

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  111. It may include some class-type snobbery toward Black Americans

    forgive me vk, but Nigerians are the worst when it comes to this.

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  112. Are you pulling my leg???

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  113. 106 chic:

    one question
    Would you happily marry a 4?

    Sure.

    As long as she had a maternal streak that allowed her to properly care for the children I sire with my girlfriends.

    In my opinion, even if a woman consents to this, it’s still a type of twisted rape.

    If by “rape” you mean “good time party”, I’d agree with you.

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  114. DA saidLiving with my parents paying minimal rent would probably create a luxurious lifestyle for twenty-somethings like myself, hence the twixter trend of the past few years

    This why young women in Japan can afford to spend so much money of designer goods. One out of four Japanese women own a piece of louis vuitton merchandise.

    http://www.eluxury.com/estore/brands/louis_vuitton/w05/collection.jsp?navChild=cat20434&catId=cat20427&showCategory=cat20476&brand=3250

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  115. Tupac what is a “good time party” ?

    Tupac
    Sure.

    As long as she had a maternal streak that allowed her to properly care for the children I sire with my girlfriends

    The reason why I love you^^^. Or maybe you are just pulling my leg.

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  116. 188 Chic:

    Tupac what is a “good time party” ?

    Runnin’ a train. You down?

    Holla back girl

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  117. @MuMin- I agree with you and Whikey about America being a car culture. I think that will have to change as the cost of gas continues to increase. For those of us who live on the coasts riding a bike may be a good choice. For people in the midwest, maybe a mortorcyle is a better opption?

    @Mu’min,Whiskey and DA- What do you think about smartcars? Will Americans take to them if gas continues to increase?
    I saw a lot of cars like this in Paris.
    http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://photo.net/photo/pcd0796/smart-swatch-car-38.4.jpg&imgrefurl=http://car-photo-stock.blogspot.com/2008/08/smart-cars-royalty-images.html&h=1054&w=1556&sz=259&hl=en&start=7&usg=__Ikzn2Gdnx8bZ7MUcS7EgLxomKKI=&tbnid=sTK1JTuZgl280M:&tbnh=102&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsmart%2Bcars%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

    One of the reasons why the Dutch like to ride bikes is because as a group, they are frugal. Among other Europeans, the Dutch are stereotyped as the most frugal among Europeans.
    When I visited the Netherlands, I noticed that I did not come across many high-end shops like in NYC & Paris. Paying 1k for a handbag is like a crime in the Netherlands.

    In Paris you will come across far more motorcycles than bicycles.

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  118. Tupac Chopra
    188 Chic:

    Tupac what is a “good time party” ?

    Runnin’ a train. You down?

    Holla back girl

    Now you know darn well I am not down for that madness. I would advise you to stop participating in that sort of activity before you find yourself in a lot of trouble.

    Otherwise, you may be a holla back boy for this dude in prison



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  119. What do you think about smartcars

    They require Premium gas, so they’re not that cheap to drive.

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  120. I believe the ones on the European market run on Diesel, cheaper there. They are supposedly gonna come to the US at some point.

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  121. PA- Diesel is very expensive in the US now.

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  122. Comments: tl;dr.

    Key point in history not to repeat:

    Despite signs that the economy was recovering largely on its own from a temporary dip, the American people in 1932 elected the most leftist president to ever have run, on his promise to have the government hand out welfare, create jobs and go after the ‘greedy fat cats’ profiting off of everyone else. Upon election, he turned the government into the nation’s largest employer (which, regretfully, it still is), utterly strangled the business and investment world with taxes, drove unemployment sky high, and implemented price controls and unconstitutional witch hunts that permanently made the government the enemy of hard working citizens. Oh, and made the Depression last a decade longer than it should have, requiring the world’s largest war to revive the economy.

    So, uh, yeah, go ahead and vote Obama. Hope and change, brother! You can go ahead and start sewing those Blue Eagles on your shirts today.

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  123. This thread has certainly taken on a life of it’s own, even more than usual around here, though it is a life consonant with the general areas of discussion of this blog.

    For the moment I’ll focus on the post itself.

    When thinking about the Great Depression and wondering if the current crisis presents real risks of that kind of size and time frame, it’s important to keep a few things in mind about the Great Depression. The first is that the 1029 crash itself, or even the continued slide from October 1929 through much of 1932, was not unprecedented in American history by any means. It may have been the worst such crash, following the most enormous bubble during the roaring twenties. Much of the earlier parts of that bubble were in fact a fully reality bases and more or less sustainable rapid expansion based upon the extremely rapid electrification of the entire country, and all the attendant efficiencies from factories to household appliances that that brought, together with radio and mass market advertising, the spread of the telephone to nearly everyone, and the first mass wave of the automobile, road building and the massive suburban exodus/expansion. But I wax elegiac.

    The proper point is that there were massive booms and busts again and again in American capitalisms before 1029 – in the 1840s, the late 1850’s on the eve of the Civil War, the 1870s, the mid 1890s, and again in 1920-21. I’ve left out several. It’s true that since WWII we haven’t had a really deep one. Until now anyway. The 1970’s were bad but not a traditional bust, stagflation instead, as we inflated out of a bust but also the brink of hyperinflation until Volker worked bitter medicine and a recession and brought it under control.

    What was so bad about the Great Depression was how long it lasted, more than a decade, and how steep the unemployment and other measures of underutilization of the capacity of the economy (e.g. utilization of capital plant and equipment, i.e. unused industrial capacity) were during it’s duration.

    It’s this last that was clearly an enormous waste, and what government should have avoided or at least cured in the 1930’s. Whether it should have kept the crash itself from going as deep as it did by 1932 (e.g. in equity values, house prices) is another an more controversial question. It certainly couldn’t have prevented the 1929 crash, and I’d say very much shouldn’t have even if it could have. Maybe it should have prevented the bubble from blowing up so big as it did particularly from 1927-1929 which is when the 10% down margin loan fueled stock market that even the apocraphal shoe shine and newspaper selling boys were in on, was really getting toppy. But democratic governments have never ever been able to effectively reign in “irrational exuberance” and probably never will be able to.

    Despite what has been taught by (overwhelmingly Dem/FDR aficionado) high school history teachers throughout the country since the 1950s, Roosevelt’s New Deal and the fiscal stimulus of Keynesian economics DID VIRTUALLY NOTHING to end or even significantly lessen the Great Depression. Some programs may have alleviated some suffering, and others may have been good in their own right, such as some of the dam building and the Tennessee Valley dam and electrification projects (though it was also way too grandiose and very inefficient). First fiscal policy is an inefficient way of using underutilized capacity in the economy, whereas correct monetary policy would have been far more effective; and second, the level of fiscal stimulus until WWII re-arming really got underway was far too small to do the job, even though it vastly and as it turned out permanently changed the size of government in the United States.

    What really kept the country from utilizing it’s capacity in both unemployed workers and underutilized factory equipment and available capital resources (all scared an hunkered in bonds by 1932) was 1) deflationary monetary policy as a result of entirely misunderstanding same in the face of the enormous asset deflation occasioned by the 1929-1932 crash; and 2) the collapse of world trade (globalization) following the US lead by it’s passage of Smoot Hawley huge protective tarrif barriers. It quite literally took WWII to change both things.

    Well, this is turning into a project. I’m gonna do some other things for a bit. Maybe I’ll get the ambition to come back and say more tying this to the present more explicitly after awhile. We’ll see.

    Like


  124. One little note. Bernanke’s PhD and academic work was on just what I wrote about above, and he came to those conclusions. He concluded what made the Great Depression bad was government deflationary monetary policy far more than anythng else — except the collapse of world trade which was also big time bad.

    Like


  125. Hope 101 —

    You are a fascinating woman Hope. You keep trying to tell me that you really aren’t, but I never really believe you. Part of it is indeed your background, but that’s hardly unique.

    However, for now I think I should avoid getting sucked into your honey trap … 😉

    Like


  126. Hope 101 –

    A class, indeed. Excellent!

    Thank you.

    Salaam,
    Mu

    Like


  127. dougjnn, I got sucked in and I am a woman.

    Like


  128. Chic, PA,
    Chic the One Drop Rule may be unique to Americans, but the idea of racial segregation is common throughout the Anglosphere, of which Haiti was never a part as it was under French rule. And for the record, DA’s ruminations vis a vie Haitians is as far as I’m concerned, a man who’s lived and lives, daily, among Haitians, have attended some of their most intimate family functions and the like, false and phony as a three dollar bill.

    Going back to Hope’s excellent piece, she hits on something I’ve said several times here, and that’s so many Americans, regardless of color, simply have no idea what idea what Life is like in other parts of the world, especially in the Third World. We like to romaniticize that part of the world, but make no mistake, it is a rough place. Many of my countrymen and women remind me of the guy in the Bourne Ultimatum at the train station, and Bourne tells him, you have no idea what you’re dealing with; these people will kill you if they have to.

    Connie Rice – NOT Condi Rice, but Connie Rice – once said that America’s inner cities are akin to the Third World, and even referred to them as “Little Mogadishus”, in reference to the capital city of Somalia. Indeed, the Code of the Streets is real, as Elijah Anderso and others have documented, and which I have seen and lived up close and personal, in ways many hear have only at best, read about. When we speak of reverting to various modes of being, for me its not a matter of theory. The old adage about life being Mean, Brutish and Short is more than a deep quote.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  129. I’d argue that the Guido belt stretches from the ends of the Philadelphia and New York City Metro areas with a small outpost around Providence.

    While it’s on the extreme fringe of the NYC metro area, East Haven, Connecticut (“Staven”) has got to be the most Guido-filled community this side of Staten Island.

    Like


  130. What do you think about smartcars? Will Americans take to them if gas continues to increase?

    I think Smart cars will become a niche product for urban dwellers and suburban park & ride users, but its high costs just simply make owning one somewhat unattractive. Smaller sedans and station wagons in general will become more popular though. Hopefully, the market for sporty coupes doesn’t die off in the next few years, and can survive until the next economic uptick.

    For those of us who live on the coasts riding a bike may be a good choice. For people in the midwest, maybe a mortorcyle is a better opption?

    My Saturn gets around 26-28mpg and my brother’s Celica gets about 30-33mpg, so we’ll probably be holdouts. Otherwise, I go motorcycle or use public transport. The bike isn’t fast and it’s tiring to use one if you want to achieve any decent speeds.

    This why young women in Japan can afford to spend so much money of designer goods. One out of four Japanese women own a piece of louis vuitton merchandise.

    It’s how I subsidized my lifestyle until I started paying some of my bills towards my parents…

    Interestingly, Japan is an interesting situation. Very little Anglo-Saxon feminism, weak female participation in work, lots of stay at home wives, nearly no immigration, yet the birthrates are plummeting and women are holding out to live at home and buy Louis Vuitton and other luxury goods. Korea’s poorer than Japan, and their birthrates are even lower per a recent reading of the Economist. I question if the Whiskey approach can explain the situation in these nations?

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  131. I think Smart cars will become a niche product for urban dwellers and suburban park & ride users, but its high costs just simply make owning one somewhat unattractive.

    More useful small cars such as the Nissan Versa or Honda Fit actually cost less than the Smart and have equally good fuel economy.

    Like


  132. Japan’s more like the West than meets the eye, don’t get it twisted; Chic’s citation of the LV crowd is but one example.

    They recently passed a law there that allows wives to gain access to significant amounts of their hubbie’s pensions in a divorce – sound familiar? – and they even have a show there called something like “Wet Leaves” – a reality show where Japanese women divorce their hubbies, because they say after they retire, they clng to the wives like wet leaves. Hang on, I’ll see if I can dig up something on it…

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  133. Here it is…

    The Rise in ‘Gray Divorce’: It’s Always
    Hubby’s Fault
    By Jeffery M. Leving and Glenn Sacks

    In both the United States and Japan, divorce among older couples is on the rise. The American Association of Retired Persons detailed the phenomenon among American seniors in a study last year, and Japan’s wave of gray divorce is expected to swell into a deluge, since Japanese women will soon be legally able to claim half of their husbands’ retirement pensions.

    There are various explanations for the trend but media commentators agree on one thing–when the husband divorces his wife, it’s hubby’s fault. When the wife divorces her husband, well, it’s hubby’s fault too.

    In a recent New York Times article Terry Martin Hekker, whose husband of 40 years divorced her, criticizes what she and others in the media are calling a trend: selfish older men dumping their wives for younger women. In Japan, a popular book is Why Are Retired Husbands Such a Nuisance?, and one of Japan’s most-watched television dramas is Jukunen Rikon (“Mature Divorce”).

    One Japanese newspaper says “some Japanese women see their husbands as an obstacle to enjoying their sunset years. With few hobbies or friends to turn to, many Japanese retirees, often nicknamed ‘wet leaves’ for their tendency to cling to their wives, spend their time at home.” These “wet leaves” are increasingly being swept aside by their newly independent wives.

    In both countries this “Pin the Blame on the Husband” is unfair. For one, the stereotype of the husband trading in his wife for a younger model is by and large a myth. The women in the AARP study were 60% more likely to claim that they ended their marriages than the men were, and men were almost twice as likely as women to say that they never saw their divorces coming. In contrast to the Porsche and trophy wife stereotype, the AARP study found that these divorced men had many serious concerns, high among them their fear of losing touch with their children after their divorces.

    Many of these men would see their fears in Hekker’s description of her divorce. Hekker likens her anger to that of the jilted bride Miss Haversham in Dickens’s Great Expectations who “spent decades…consumed with plotting revenge.” She says that at a family baby shower recently, her niece said “I don’t want to end up like Aunt Terry.”

    In other words, Hekker plays the victim and the family has been instructed to feel pity for her and outrage at her ex-husband, who now is apparently persona non grata among his relatives. What a nice reward for the 40 years he worked to provide his wife and children with a comfortable standard of living.

    Japanese women–who enjoy one of the longest life expectancies in the world—are apparently similarly ungrateful. Is it so surprising and contemptible that after four decades of work, work, work, retired Japanese men don’t know what to do with themselves? They’ve never known the freedoms and unsupervised days that their homemaker wives have enjoyed.

    This is not to say that there’s no validity to women’s complaints. Radio host Howard Stern recently interviewed television commentator Geraldo Rivera, who in 2003 married a woman less than half his age. Stern was only half-joking when he asked “aren’t you worried about your future? Think of it–when you’re 75, you’re going to be stuck married to a 45 year-old woman.”

    In this area biology dictates much–if men found 60-year-old women as attractive as they found 30 year-olds, the human race would have died out a long time ago. Yet marriages break up for a variety of reasons, most of them having little to do with male perfidy. There’s a big distinction between dumping your wife for a younger woman, and pursuing a relationship with a younger woman after your marriage has ended.

    Though nobody says it, “dumped for a younger woman” is sometimes just a woman’s cop-out for not taking responsibility for her own contribution to the marital breakdown. Hekker says her ex-husband spent 16 pages of his divorce papers “meticulously detailing my faults and flaws.” Yet the New York Times’ editors didn’t ask her to devote a single one of her 1,600+ words towards giving the reader a clue as to what her ex-husband’s feelings and complaints might be.

    Given the way the media is portraying gray divorce on both sides of the Pacific, this is no surprise.

    http://www.glennsacks.com/the_rise_in_gray.htm

    Like


  134. Isn’t one of the requirements of a recession a lack of real GDP growth?

    Real GDP growth so far this year is over 2%. If you take out housing, it is 3%.

    We still have an accomodating Fed, oil is under or near $100 a barrel, taxation rates are still low.

    signed,

    anti-bailout

    Like


  135. Roissy & Mu’Min, I don’t know WHERE the stats are y’all are rounding up on how “mostly women” vote dem. I know the world seems to revolve around the East Coast, but there is a whole lot of country out here.

    New immigrants and first generation women are pretty staunch conservatives that don’t believe in hand outs. In case you hadn’t noticed, there is a wave of new immigrants coming into this country from places south of here and many of themhave been victimized by socialist policies.

    I can’t remember what year it will be when whites are the minority, but hopefully some of the men on this blog have had their pretty blonde 10’s fall in their laps by then and start cranking out more than 2.5 kids.

    Like


  136. of which Haiti was never a part as it was under French rule

    One of the interesting quirks about the Haitian Independence movement was that once it was over, the mulatto population simply absorbed the former place of the old colonial plantation owners. Haiti has been one of those places where light-skin has been in vogue, the social position of the mulatto simply reinforced the desire of many to marry into light-skinned families. It was the ultimate sign of wealth and social power, and many families pushed their children at all costs to marry into mulatto families. Even today, I’ve met dark-skinned folks of the former Haitian lower classes who proudly boast of mulatto ancestry.

    among Haitians, have attended some of their most intimate family functions and the like, false and phony as a three dollar bill

    Remember, not all immigrants Haitians are the same. Some were poor urban dwellers, some were poor rural farmers, some were mulatto elites, and others were the “middle class” who didn’t fall into any of these groups.

    Like


  137. My Saturn gets around 26-28mpg and my brother’s Celica gets about 30-33mpg, so we’ll probably be holdouts. Otherwise, I go motorcycle or use public transport. The bike isn’t fast and it’s tiring to use one if you want to achieve any decent speeds.

    This why young women in Japan can afford to spend so much money of designer goods. One out of four Japanese women own a piece of louis vuitton merchandise.

    It’s how I subsidized my lifestyle until I started paying some of my bills towards my parents…

    You heard it here first. David Alexander subsidizes his lavish lifestyle of domesticated Opels and Squidzukis by selling overpriced handbags to naive Asian tourists. Probably black market, too. Way to be an ambassador, buddy. Do you throw the little fluffy dog in with the deal?

    Like


  138. DA,
    I also have a longtime mentor, an African American man of his early 60s who travels extensively to Haiti for years to buy art; he’s an art dealer on the side. And again, I know more out Haiti than you might think. The people that I know are not peasants, and are darker than me. They do very well for themselves, and none of them speak of getting themselves a “White” mate and the like. I think what you’re talking says something more about you, and is not unique to folk from the Caribbean. African Americans, some of them, suffer from this, too.

    QT,
    It is easy to get the stats on the state of the Democrat Party vis a vie the Woman’s Vote. Any Google seach will do.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  139. QT,
    Here’s just a small bit of evidence backing up my claim:

    http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/07/21/1212838.aspx

    Like


  140. It may include some class-type snobbery toward Black Americans.

    The snobbery that some Caribbean and African immigrants feel is due to feelings amongst both groups that native born African-Americans are simply lazy and unwilling to work hard to become successful. Immigrants see themselves coming to America and achieving the American Dream while they see black people “failing” around them. Some immigrants have feel that they’re culturally different, and view their native cultures as “superior” or “authentic” or “different”, and others still have lingering memories of native-born blacks using slurs against them.

    For the record, David Alexander views himself as a black Caribbean-American with a sprinkling of white ancestry and a Roman Catholic.

    It’s nearly impossible to sustain a false personality for a longer period of time.

    My postings are admittedly just an amplified version of a depressive and antagonistic side of me. It isn’t necessarily an act, but it’s more or a reflection of my personality during somewhat depressive private moments. The real life version of me is a bit less depressed, somewhat more reserved, but very open and engaging in private.

    I agree 100% but to someone like DA, sadly whiter is always better. Even* when it’s toothless &,400lbs.

    I rejected a 150 pound white girl because she wasn’t attractive and because her family reeked of guido trash. Sadly, we got along very well, and she tolerated my interests, but it would have been publically embarrassing. The current girl that I’m “dating” is slowly turning out to be another white trash special, so there’s no chance that I’ll ever have sex with her or make her into a real girlfriend.

    On the flip side, there are two beautiful black girls at work who are attractive, but one is way too ghetto for my tastes, and the other seems to like giving me dirty looks. Another girl has a beautiful body and she does the nail and high heels thing, but she looks like Flavor Flav’s female twin…

    Chic Noir, I’m not going to say that black women are all hideous, but from what I’ve seen, black girls tend to be extremely beautiful (8-10) or unattractive (4-5) although, an ugly black girl is more likely to have a much nicer body than her white counterparts. The attractive, but not hot girls (6-7) aren’t as common, and the few that I’ve met tend to be Caribbean. My Karebear from Barbados was a sweet, intelligent, beautiful girl who I just haven’t been able to replicate in any other black woman, and she’s in that “missing” middle.

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  141. DA,
    I’ve interacted with many people in this world, and my interactions with Caribbeans have for the most partbeen very positive. Moreover, if one wants to look down on someone, the Caribbean is a very good place to start, where poverty and crime rival if not beats out anything found in Black America.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  142. DA,
    Most African Americans are Christian of one stripe or another and virtually all African Americans have White ancestry. Again, I suggest that you expand your circle of Black friends and associates. Many of us work at least as hard, and if one wants to do a comparison of the two of us, much harder than many of you.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  143. DA,
    Caribbeans and African Americans actually are alot more alike than they are different. We both are remnants of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade, we both are steeped in the traditions of the Western world, and so on. And we have taken on the best and the worst, of said world. Racism is just as rampant in the Isles as anywhere else, and as you note Haiti visits a kind of caste system on its own just like we do and did here in Black America, and in Jamaica, and so on.

    So don’t even front. It’s one thing to want to better yourself. And I will not make any excuses for the bad things that American born Blacks, some of them, do. But what you’re doing and have done goes beyond the pale, sir, and this extends to your views of Black women. Now don’t get me wrong, you have every right to go after what you like. No problem there. I just find that you have a serious axe to grind. And I think it would be a lot better if you simply said as much, instead of doing the faux-White passive aggressive thing. Be a man about it.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  144. DA,
    Oh, and another thing, the descendants of Scottish-Irish folk are at best, Noveau-Riche. Look up Sowell, he talks about how Scots and Irish folk were viewed upon their arrival in the Americas. In many ways, they were the Niggers of Western Europe.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  145. now i shamelessly promote my own pregnancy in the midst of this meltdown:

    http://www.nationalpost.com/multimedia/video/diamond/index.html

    Like


  146. ****
    Women’s bodies are designed for other functions, and our psyches simply are wired differently and recoil at the thought of killing massive numbers of people.
    ****
    That’s why both world wars happened after women got the vote. Cause half the voters weren’t in any danger from dying.

    In fact, that’s probably why the city bombing started. Men, subconsciously, striking out in rage at all the ‘blameless’ women insisting that they fight to the death.

    Not really kidding here.

    Like


  147. @ 140 Jewcano

    LOL!

    I think what you’re talking says something more about you, and is not unique to folk from the Caribbean. African Americans, some of them, suffer from this, too.

    I’ve met a few others who worship at the alter of whiteness, and you’re right because it’s not simply limited to Caribbeans or Africans, but from what I’ve seen, from my experience it seems to be more commonplace in foreign blacks. Interestingly, I have a mulatto aunt who lives in Manhattan and loves everything white, while another dark-skinned aunt is a de facto black-nationalist. My god-mother grew up as a rich woman in Haiti, and she’s rather anti-American and somewhat anti-Semetic in her viewpoints. Views can easily vary from person to person, being born in the same family doesn’t guarantee the same viewpoint.

    the Caribbean is a very good place to start, where poverty and crime rival if not beats out anything found in Black America

    The Caribbean is a land of contrasts. You have Jamaica where high crime is rampant and exacerbated by the drug trade, but Haiti were poverty is endemic, but outside of the capital, the country is rather safe and peaceful. In contrast, there’s Barbados, the richest black country in the world per capita, and Trinidad & Tobago which has a GDP that’s higher than Mexico and makes its money off being an outsourced refinery for the United States.

    For all intents and purposes, the Caribbean isn’t perfect, but it’s much better than Africa…

    I just find that you have a serious axe to grind.

    I think you’re barking up the wrong tree. While I may have few black friends (or few friends in general), and I may not find black woman as attractive in the same way that other black men do, I really don’t have bitterness towards the black community.

    As for my potential young daughter, while I’d prefer for her to follow a proper path and get married later on, for all intents and purposes in the real world, one really can’t force their daughter to abort regardless of one’s wishes. My cousin gave birth to my niece at the age of twenty, and her life was never the same from that point onward, and any big dreams we had for her had disappeared.

    As for the relation between my mother and I, I’m the quintessential mommy’s boy. Since she can’t drive, I drive her to the mall so she can go shopping and enjoy sometime outside of the house. I’m not resentful towards my mother over anything since she sacrificed so much for me to be here, but I do feel that I was a burden upon her and that I ruined both of my parents especially since their investment in me has returned so little. While I’m not a criminal or going around serially impregnating women, I’m didn’t graduate college and I don’t have a career that my parents can brag about to their friends and family members. So to a certain extent I’ve failed my parents, but to a lesser extent, I feel that I’ve failed the black community and that I’m still a “failure”. To a certain extent, it explains why I don’t bother with courting women as I feel that the college degree & career will “buy” the beautiful middle class girl.

    Caribbeans and African Americans actually are alot more alike than they are different. We both are remnants of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade, we both are steeped in the traditions of the Western world

    Afro-Brazilians, Caribbeans, and African-Americans are similar because the trans-Atlantic slave trade, but each group has its own little quirks due to various cultural elements adopted from the local whites and due to the historical circumstances present in each land. While some similarities may exist, but one can’t discount the differences either.

    Like


  148. David Alexander,

    Sorry, but either way, your daughter has little chance of marrying into the WASP or Jewish elite. Despite the fact that black women are far more likely hold college degrees and hold high paying jobs than black males, black male-white female marriages outnumber white male-black female marriage by about three-to-one.

    The more likely scenario would either be your daughter never marrying or marrying a lower status black male.

    Like


  149. DA,
    I’m sorry for leaning on you, man. Your latest post revealed a few things to me about you.

    A few weeks back, Roissy gave you a bit of advice, something that really cememented my decision to be a “regular” here. His altruism belies any pretenses he may have of being a rogue, LOL.

    I think if you asked your parents, and I’m taking a big chance here, but if you asked them Dave, I don’t think they’d see you as such a big failure. It’s common for males, especially in today’s American culture, too off the rails a bit. You are at a very crucial point in time in your life, and I agree with someone here who said that you are something of a late bloomer. You simply haven’t hit your stride yet, but you will if you stick with it.

    Please ditch the idea of attempting to “buy” a female off with a high powered degree. Look at Hope. She married a man not that different from you! She married him not for what he had but for what who he was and is. And that’s what “Game” is all about, otherwise all that would be needed to get the girl was simply to get rich. It’s all about what’s on the inside; everything extra is just that, extra.

    Its not a crime to like a certain thing about women; I think alot of the angst we as Black folks put ourselves through would go away or at least be lessened, if brothas simply just came out and said, look, I’m sexually attracted to White women, OK? I like the contrasts of skin tone, and so forth, whaddy want from me? I think Sistas, upon hearing that would respect that. Not like it, mind you, but at least respect it. Its no about putting Black women down, its simply stating a preference, just like women the world over prefer taller men to shorter. That’s OK until they start ragging on shorter men FOR BEING SHORTER. And that’s the problem I have with Roissy to an extent, when he jumps on “fatties”. We all know what he’s into, God bless him and more power him. But why does he have to take potshots at overweight women in the process? What’s that all about? Everyone knows that White men like Roissy don’t like that sort of thing, fair enough. Why the overkill?

    Finally, your point about Brazil needs a bit of refinement. The Whites in that case, were Portugese, who had a different view of racial intergration than was common in the Anglosphere, and it shows. Brazil probably has more White women per capita built like Sistas. Not even Puerto Rico comes close, another stop along the slave trade route. Anytime you see a non Black woman with a serious caboose, you can be certain somewhere in her family tree she’s got an infusion of African, West African, DNA. Africa is, afterall, the Land of Ms. Fat Booty, LOL.

    Holla back

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  150. Mu’min —

    First, I broadly agree with what you’re telling DA, and applaud you for your altruism in doing so as well.

    One thing though I feel I must comment on though is this:

    Look at Hope. She married a man not that different from you! She married him not for what he had but for what who he was and is. And that’s what “Game” is all about, otherwise all that would be needed to get the girl was simply to get rich. It’s all about what’s on the inside; everything extra is just that, extra.

    You are right in pointing out that Hope didn’t go for the kind of high earning highest status he can manage seeking guy that her traditional Chinese mother wanted her to seek out.

    But, but, but.

    She did go with a bad boy stud muffin, white version. Ok, a smart, kinda nerdy in a way stud muffin but still. He was hard drinking and given to fights. Not only is he now ex military, but I think she said ex marine. If not, I get the strong impression he wasn’t exactly driving a truck or serving as a cook in the military.

    She fell in love crush with him when she was 15 and he was 21 or so. She never entirely lost that, though they did date entirely seperately for a few years, and I gather she didn’t really have him to herself for long in the early days either. In other words her husband was/is a pretty high T kinda guy.

    Partly cause he got older and partly due to her influence he got a lot more serious and is no longer a screw up, blowing all his/their money. Instead he now thinks as a pair. But I think any game he had was all natural, and any learning he’s done is towards being more responsible and domesticated.

    Like


  151. Re my Great Depression post and to bail out or not bail out Wall Street, by buying up 700b of mortgaged backed securities that have no bidders and are threatening to sink the system:

    maybe we shouldn’t do it. But we do need to do something.

    It is not important to save most Wall Street banks. On the other hand to have them all go under would be a huge problem. The talent pool is needed, or some of it is, and in an organized fashion.

    An even bigger problem would be for a Citibank or BofA to be let go under. Really the Fed can’t allow that, though it can extract lots of pain for not allowing it.

    Mostly though what’s needed is not to stem most losses, but to ensure that credit frees up in the credit markets TO CLEARLY CREDIT WORTHY BORROWERS, not necessarily to everyone, especially not right away.

    By and large the people who’s mortgages were going to be foreclosed because they weren’t close to being able to afford them still need to suffer foreclosure, and the mortgage holders need to suffer big losses. The terms of a government bailout should not keep that from being the case, though they should keep the whole system from collapsing. As well it might be possible to help cases that were close, where the bank’s ARM reset terms were tougher than they had to be. That kind of renegotiation makes all kinds of sense. It’s also very time consuming and hard to pull off in a panic collapse.

    Just how to do all this I really don’t know. One would have to be in the middle of all the details. But it seems to me those should be some of the principles.

    Like


  152. @#43

    1. Ride bikes where? Commuting by bike is a non-starter in many places due to a combination of large distances between home and work, direct high-speed roads (e.g. freeways) not allowing bikes, lack of bike lanes, and lack of bike storage at the workplace. Where else are you expecting people to bike in a way that would actually seriously reduce gas demand?

    2. In the short term, a higher savings rate would lead to a slowdown; in fact it’s precisely what’s happening now. Longer-term, I’m not qualified to say. As far as the credit card thing, it’s a tough question. I’ve blown past $3000 on a credit card in a single month on numerous occasions (say any time I have to buy plane tickets for two plus hotel for a wedding my wife and I are invited to, and also happen to make any sort of significant electronics or furniture purchase). Then again, I don’t carry a credit card balance, so I only care that the limit is enough to cover what I might want to spend on the card; I plan to pay it off at the end of the month no matter what.

    As far as living with parents, this is made more difficult by the fact that the jobs are often somewhere else, and often enough the parents are living in the suburbs while the young want to live someplace more interesting (say with restaurants and movie theaters that don’t suck). The rate of house buying for unmarried young folks is very low, so I doubt they’re affecting housing prices directly. They do drive up rents in the fashionable areas a good bit, of course.

    3. College costs are fun. See the recent decision Caltech made to keep charging tuition even though financially they no longer needed to, and their reasons for the decision. Of course state schools are in a quite different position; I’m not quite sure where their ballooning costs are coming from, exactly. I doubt their tuitions would be affected by whether students are willing to accept loans, since they already set them based on breaking even. Can’t speak to your community college example, since it’s an apples to oranges comparison for the kinds of colleges and majors I have experience with: two years of classes at a community college for a physics major don’t prepare one nearly as well as two years of physics and math classes at a top university or liberal arts college. For one thing, physics lab equipment is not cheap. Again, the situation might be different for some (but by no means all!) state schools, which likely provide instruction on a level closer to that of community colleges.

    Like


  153. Doug,
    All good points you make, and I’ve been thinking a bit about the very same thing while reading Hope’s thoughts earlier yesterday.

    I think a man has to actively nourish the “ruffneck” side of himself, and unleash it every so often. I think that’s what hunting and other pursuits are all about, and when it comes t the woman in one’s life, every so often you have to unleash it on her, too. Now, I want to be clear here. I’m not talking about being violent or downright mean, but let’s face it, lots of women DO get seriously turned on by being “taken” by a man. Women are natural submissives, and men need to really understand that. And that’s another thing I can appreciate about the Codification of “Game”, in that it talks about and teaches thes primoridal truths. Women are driven on a very deep level to seek security, and this is true in the sexual area as well.

    Anyway, I think Dave would do well to take more risks in his life. In short, he needs to get laid alot more than he does, and he needs to experiment with women more. Start out with a few strong 6s and 7s to build up confidence, and go from there. What do you think?

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  154. Sorry, but either way, your daughter has little chance of marrying into the WASP or Jewish elite.

    My cousin managed to marry the son of a Member of the Order of Australia recipient, so I’ll take that chance. Otherwise, an Ivy League (or selective college) will turn her into a marriageable candidate for a good men regardless of race, or at minimum ensure a high paying career that I would be proud of, and it ensures that my last name is attached to something nice for once. 🙂

    but if you asked them Dave, I don’t think they’d see you as such a big failure

    I don’t think they would openly admit it, but they’d feel that way since I have few friends, no college degree, no great high-paying career, and no romantic prospects. Nothing worth bragging about, especially when they hear about other kids who graduated with me or after me who have good jobs, nice cars, and enviable lifestyles.

    I think alot of the angst we as Black folks put ourselves through would go away or at least be lessened, if brothas simply just came out and said, look, I’m sexually attracted to White women, OK?

    I’m attracted to sexually attracted to white women. Don’t worry though, as I’ve pointed out, a few black women have won my heart. 🙂

    Please ditch the idea of attempting to “buy” a female off with a high powered degree.

    The theory for me has generally been that I’ll need a good career to attract and keep an attractive woman for long-term relationship who is willing to put up with my faults, weird quirks, and bizzare hobbies.

    But we do need to do something.

    As a New Yorker, I’m biased, and I’d prefer the Wall Street banks to stay intact here in New York in order to keep state and municipal tax receipts high, but on the national scale, something needs to be done in order to free up the credit markets. My politics may reek of certain left-wing platitudes, but I’m willing to throw that by the wayside to save Wall Street and capitalism to get the economy working again. Buying back the MBS to me sounds like the best solution so far, but I’m open to other alternatives to help to re-capitalize the big financial players.

    By and large the people who’s mortgages were going to be foreclosed because they weren’t close to being able to afford them still need to suffer foreclosure

    That’s where my friends and family have argued with me. While others have called for bailing out homeowners, I’ve been highly reluctant to do so because of the repercussions on this with future lending and moral hazard on the consumer level, especially when some foreclosures were simply speculatory investments and others are irresponsible “walk-away” types who are unwilling to fulfill their part of the deal in repaying their mortgage. I’m willing to allow for those who have equity in their homes to have their mortgages reset, but with penalties if the home is sold for a profit within a certain number of years. The speculators and “walk-away” types can go fuck themselves, and I’m very heistant to help the no-money down purchasers who have nothing to lose.

    BTW, I’m willing to spit in the face of anybody who worked at Moody’s, Standard & Poor’s, and Fitch because they rated every fucking subprime ridden mortgage-backed security as AAA prime instead of crap. Those fuckers truly deserve jail and they should be barred from providing services to pension funds and other retirement investments, and replaced with new actors in this field.

    Like


  155. 147 Mu’Min

    DA,
    Oh, and another thing, the descendants of Scottish-Irish folk are at best, Noveau-Riche. Look up Sowell, he talks about how Scots and Irish folk were viewed upon their arrival in the Americas. In many ways, they were the Niggers of Western Europe.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Funny you mention that. In fact, they tried to use them as slaves in the plantations of the West Indies and American South, but they kept dying of tropical diseases. That’s the biggest reason Africans were imported — they were biologically adapted to tropical climates and could handle the various fevers that killed whites in droves (read Mark Twain’s descriptions of sick white settlers on the Mississippi in the 1850s).

    You know, even up to the early 20th century (when science began to gain the upper hand over many diseases) biological differences still had a fairly strong influence on settlement patterns. For example, before food irradiation with UV (1920s) black kids in the northern states commonly had rickets.

    However, I wouldn’t overgeneralize about Scots-Irish being only nouveau-riche. They could and did (and still do) assimilate into upper-class society in many instances. Usually that was simply a matter of money, a good education and adherence to an “aristocratic” faith such as the Episcopalian Church.

    Like


  156. Mu’Min:
    The American Experiment works, at least thus far, because the Founding Fathers accepted the highs and lows of Human Nature and tried to craft a system of gov’t that took this into account. Every other system of gov’t on the other hand, tried to create something that was fundamentally out of step with Human Nature. They have all failed.

    parag khanna

    i’m no longer sure this is true. parag khanna is among the new generation of foreign policy analysts who are looking more closely at china’s emerging role in the new world order and america’s concomitant decline. it may very well be that china’s politically authoritative, socially restrictive and economically laissez faire approach may prove to be more competitive than ours on the global scene. it may be that such authoritative structures are superior to ours. parag mentioned on charlie rose how the mistake francis fukuyama (‘end of history’) made was assuming that the democratic model represented the apogee of civilization. the jury is still out. it seems clear that western democracies have serious problems dealing with long term problems vs short term rewards and non- trivial amounts of lower achieving groups who can keep voting for more benefits at the expense of a passive and shrinking majority. authoritative governments might not have those problems as severe. just food for thought…

    Like


  157. OK, some random comments and thoughts here.

    DA: Not to get too personal, but do you and your Dad talk? I mean, just in general, about Life, Love, Sex, Women? I’ve found, and perhaps Roissy and some others can chime in on this, far too many dads don’t talk to their sons about Life. And its something I always said I would do for my boy, talk to him about these things, my mistakes and gaffes and failures, as well as my successes. Men as a rule don’t generally hit their stride for real till around their 30s, and nowadays, due to massive shifts and changes it can take even longer than that.

    Plus, you gotta look at it this way-you’re not on film at 11, on a coroner’s slab, or on death row. For a Black man, a young one, in one of the world’s biggest urban centers, that alone is saying a lot. For real.

    Don’t sweat it, man. You’re still feeling your way around, trying to get your sealegs together. Trust me, it’ll come together. But you gotta take some steps, baby steps towards things. Forget all that stuff about needing a degree just to go out on a date!;) believe me, a lot of women really don’t care about all that. It certainly is a help when it comes to marriage, but you shouldn’t be thinking about tht right now anyway. A man shouldn’t be thinking seriously about marriage until he’s reached his 30s, had a chance to see a bit of the world, been w/some women, done some things. You ain’t chick nor child man, as your recent trip out to San Fran shows. Enjoy yourself, and don’t take yourself too seriously. Sitdown w/your dad and ask him what life was like for him on the female front. Doing so will give you some perspective on things.

    Welmer:
    No doubt the Scots and Irish have become fully “White” over the past century, I was just noting that it wasn’t always the case. And your references to Twain, one of America’s all time greats, is well noted.

    Freak:
    I’m not sure China will become the economic/political/military behemoth everyone’s talking about. As is currently being shown, they’ve got massive internal and external problems that need to be worked out.

    Doug:
    If you’re still reading along, I just want to go back to something we were discussing earlier, and to be honest I don’t even know if it was on this or another thread.

    My dilemma wrt the whole Baby Daddy Question, was in attempting to find the best solution for all concerned. To be sure, I do not want guys who aren’t the real daddy to be stuck w/the bill. Having said that though, I also don’t like contemplating the prospect of potentially millions of kids-especially the males-having no claim on a dad at all.

    So I’m attemptin to hash this all out.

    Holla back

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  158. educated Black men

    Speaking of educated black men, check this Space Moose comic out:

    Like


  159. BTW, I’m willing to spit in the face of anybody who worked at Moody’s, Standard & Poor’s, and Fitch because they rated every fucking subprime ridden mortgage-backed security as AAA prime instead of crap. Those fuckers truly deserve jail and they should be barred from providing services to pension funds and other retirement investments, and replaced with new actors in this field.

    What I can’t figure out is why everyone in the financial services industry treated the opinions of the rating agencies like the Voice of Truth from Mount Olympus. The agencies have been very wrong, and more than once.

    Like


  160. DA

    I’m not resentful towards my mother over anything since she sacrificed so much for me to be here, but I do feel that I was a burden upon her and that I ruined both of my parents especially since their investment in me has returned so little. While I’m not a criminal or going around serially impregnating women, I’m didn’t graduate college and I don’t have a career that my parents can brag about to their friends and family members. So to a certain extent I’ve failed my parents,

    Don’t you think parents might have other reasons for having children except for bragging rights? Raising children requires sacrifices but it has its own intrinsic rewards. You have written about your love for your nieces and nephews. Do you love them mostly to the extent they can be expected to succesfully climb the social ladder?

    K-strategy taken to an extreme is nearly as terrible as r-strategy taken to an extreme.

    Like


  161. It is not important to save most Wall Street banks. On the other hand to have them all go under would be a huge problem.

    I think it’s would be important to legislate persons with psychopathic tendencies away from any serious financial decision making affecting millions of people. If financial institutions can afford golden parachutes worth tens of millions, they sure as hell can afford to hire armies of top-notch shrinks to thoroughly examine each wannabe-recruite. Re-opening Auschwitz for the decisionmakers of large investment banks gone under should give the people in the business a pause.

    Better yet, throw all human beings out of the loop as soon as AI technology allows. (AI software actually already is responsible for some of stock market trading.)

    Like


  162. Well, we’re having one heck of a discussion, as per usual in these parts.

    But, since the topic has already been broached, I’d just like to ask: has anyone here actually been to an astrologer to have their horoscope done? And if so, what was the result?

    It is my understanding that astrology isn’t particularly viewed in a favorable light in the Seduction Community; if this is indeed so, I would caution any PUA reading this not to be so quick to dismiss astrology. It can be a powerful ally to the Crimson Arts (love that phrase, Roissy.)

    So…Comments?

    Holla back

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  163. Doug not 154:

    Not 154, as in not a response to your comment here, but on an older moribund thread, you mentioned T in a response to me. Interesting article here about the rehabilitation of T:

    http://www.timinvermont.com/fitness/test.htm

    Love the quote at the end, indirectly re: the relevance of T to attractiveness (and therefore Game):

    “There is something about interpersonal power and dynamism (or seriousness or substance or presence) that seems true among people with high testosterone,” Dr. Dabbs said. “They are a little less concerned with what others are thinking about, a little more forward or bold or unafraid.”

    That last sentence is critical. It is the essence of good Inner Game.

    As for giving any detailed descriptions of T and its effects, why I could never do that, doug! T is illegal! At least outside of Precautionary Principle-constrained female-approved medical uses. I could never advocate or in any way enable the use of such a dangerous anti-woman anti-life rape-the-Earth nuke-the-whales substance as testosterone. Don’t you know, doug, that testosterone is the source of all evil in the world?

    Oh. You don’t know that. Why am I not surprised? Men!

    Like


  164. I’m guessing that Asrology is in general seen in any of these ways, by most peole who aren’t students or practitioners of it:

    MATERIALISTS:
    This probably describes the philosophy of most evol-bio types, including our gracious host, Roissy. They will probably see Astrology as nonsense, though useful as a gimmick in pick-ups.

    FUNDAMENTALIST RELIGIOUS:
    I’m using “Fundamentalist” in a descriptive, not pejorative sense. For the most part, fundamentalist Christains and I think Muslims too see Astrology either as a heresy, or as an unclean force, to be avoided.

    ME:
    I’m traditionally religious, in that I believe there is a transcendent reality beyond the material world, and that Christian theology explains it correctly. Although I haven’t given a whole lot of thought to Astrology, and by extension, to other paranormal phenomena, I don’t deny the possibility that Astrology may be “real” in the sense that it accounts for phenomena that science has not yet ventured toward.

    Like


  165. 166 – Aromatase inhibitors are legal and have proven effect:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17460335

    Like


  166. PA,
    Your thoughts on the matter are quite reasonable. I ask the question because so often, the hardest critics of astrology seem to know so little about it, surely not the proper approach of say, a materialist or an empiricist, yes?

    In fact, a strong argument can be made that those who rail against astrology do so because of some fears of the unkown on their own part. And clearly, fearing the unkown isn’t the sole preserve of astrology, right?

    I won’t attempt to put any words in Roissy’s mouth. If he’s so inclined, he can speak to the matter himself. But from what I’ve read, the general community tends to see astrology in a negative light, and what I can say is this, the hardest critics in the community of astrology, if I were a betting man, had never been to an astrologer, talked to any astrologers, or actually studied the history of astrology. Their criticisms are no more reasoned than that of the Humanist Magazine attack on astrology some thirty years ago.

    Holla back

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  167. New research is blaming violent and anti-social tendencies on cortisol rather than testosterone.

    Like


  168. 167 PA: A man should not live in a fairytale world:

    “Embarrassing Questions
    -What is the likelihood that one-twelfth of the world’s population is having the same kind of day?
    -Why is the moment of birth, rather than conception, crucial for astrology?
    -Are all horoscopes done before the discovery of the three outermost planets incorrect?
    -Why is there no astrology of stars, galaxies, and quasars?”

    (http://www.astrosociety.org/education/astro/act3/astrology3.html)

    “In 1971 the Survey Research Center of the University of California, Berkeley gathered data on 1000 adults and looked for any correlation between natal signs and personality traits such as leadership skills, political opinions, intelligence, musical ability, artistic ability, confidence, creativity, occupation, religion, ability to make friends, emotional expression, organizational skills-even belief in astrology! They looked for a correlation between personality and astrological sign and found none.
    Another such study reported in the December 1985 issue of Nature, described a double-blind experiment by physicist Shawn Carlson of the physics department of UC Berkeley. Twenty-eight professional astrologers were given three personality profiles of each subject, and one of the three was the correct one, based on 18 personality traits by the California Personality Inventory Test. Each subject provided his or her birth time accurate to within 15 minutes, and there were 116 subjects studied. The astrologers guessed correctly 1/3 of the time, and that was exactly the rate expected by chance. The astrologers were even allowed to pick a second choice for the personality profile, and their accuracy was still no better than chance.
    Astrologers have never been shown to have the ability to predict world events, warn others of natural disasters, or perform any other such feats that one would expect of an allegedly predictive “science.” So why does astrology seem so convincing to many people?
    Astrological readings are vague, and people read into them what they expect to hear. In the Carlson study mentioned above, subjects were asked to pick out their own horoscopes that the astrologers had prepared, and they did no better than chance. But they also reported that they were satisfied with the horoscope they chose. Any horoscope will do.
    In a 1979 French study, Michel Gauquelin put an ad for a free horoscope reading in a Paris newspaper. Recipients were asked to rate how accurate they and their friends found the reading. Ninety-four percent said it was accurate, as did 90% of their friends and family. But all of them had received the same horoscope, which was that of Dr. Petiot, a French mass murderer. People see what they want to see. (Of course, the astrologer who did Petiot’s horoscope didn’t see his grisly future either.)
    On a TV show on June 7, 1989, magician James Randi offered $100,000 to an astrologer who said he could prove the truth of his claims. The astrologer cast the horoscopes of twelve subjects. Then he interviewed them without knowing their identities and then tried to match each one with the horoscopes. He said he could do it, but he got all twelve wrong.
    In 1994, Melbourne’s Sunday Age asked six professional astrologers and psy”

    (http://fayfreethinkers.com/tracts/astrology.shtml)

    what is your sign, really?
    http://www.montgomerycollege.edu/Departments/planet/M_AS101/Labs/WhatIsYourSignReally/What_is_your_sign_really.htm

    some more facts:
    http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/astrology.html

    Stereotyping and prejudice:
    There are some interesting parallels between racism and astrology. In both cases, people are being judged by factors beyond their control. … in both cases, there is a framework of belief that says, Without even meeting or knowing you, I believe something about you: I can expect these traits or particular sort of behavior (sneakiness, laziness, arrogance, etc.) from members of this particular group of people.
    (http://www.alibi.com/index.php?story=23386&scn=news)

    Like


  169. I was one of the people who was a serious skeptic of Astrology initially. I considered it to be serious fluff and because I assumed that Astrology was about the newspapaer columns and the one size fits all predictions that you see on the daily horoscopes (which is not actually Astrology at all) I dismissed it as superstition and even thought that the people who believed in it lacked some serious logic.

    What I found out was that the stuff that passes for astrology publicly isnt real astrology and that the Astrologers who practical natal Astrology were practicing a serious craft that has been around as long as or prior to most of our religious faiths.

    As someone who has been a practicing Astrologer for almost a decade, I can attest that a natal Astrological chart reading will give you MORE insight into your complete being than you can imagine and it will lead you into knowledge and an understanding of the deeper meanings of why were are here, who we are and why we seem to be born into certain circumstanes with a certain set of impulses etc.

    Family, self worth, mindset, parental issues, sexuality, career, relationships, education can all be assessed very thouroughly through Astrology.

    Astrology also will give you great insight into why some people are drawn to one another in relationships as well as the dynamics etc.

    Dont sleep on Astrology.

    Like


  170. Please re-read my comment on astrology before you say “fantasy world.”

    — What is the likelihood that one-twelfth of the world’s population is having the same kind of day?

    Here is a plausible scenario, at least to me, a non-expert in the field: the time of year when conception takes place has an effect on the person’s traits. Science has not observed this, but “Capricorn” and “Libra” are on to this, etc.

    Like


  171. 168 Czar:

    Keep in mind long term use of AI’s can wreak havoc on the body.

    I’ve played with standalone Clomid (different I know), but was not impressed.

    I’m excited about SARMs:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_androgen_receptor_modulator

    Like


  172. Please note that studies refuting the validity of Astrological readings werent done with practiced Astrooger doing an analysis of an entire natal chart.

    The popular studies that have attempted to refute Astrologer were all using Sun Sign Astrology which any Astrologer worth their weight will tell you is incomplete.

    There are several studies that were done with a professional Astrologer anylyzing an entire Natal Chart that actually were quite successfull in validitating Astrologys consistent ability to predict personality traits and life events with great accuracy.

    Like


  173. Thanks Zam, PA.

    Nice try Czar, but no cigar. The questions you pose and the studies you cite have alreadt been taken up and dealt with in detail. Might I recommend a very good book out of the UK called The Moment of Astrology?

    And you still have not answered my question: have YOU ever been to an astrologer? Talked to one/a few? Have you ever actualy picked up a book that dealt w/the orgins and history of astrology? Has anyone other than Zam and myself? LOL!

    You know, my understanding is that the community makes fun of the ladies for going in for that astrology stuff…but I think the joke’s on those who try to make fun of something they are wholly, but the looks of things here, ignorant of.

    Is being an ignoramus a Alpha, or Beta trait?

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  174. Instead of just stating my opinion, I linked to peer-reviewed empirical studies, and raised some tough questions.

    That UK book has been debunked as the rest of the stuff:
    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_6_23/ai_57533286/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1

    The anecdotal evidence leaves me as unimpressed as the ad hominem attacks.

    As chick crack is concerned, there is enough wonder in science to baffle her mind and wet her pants.

    Like


  175. 168 Czar: Thanks for that link. I’ve used aromatase inhibitors, and I’ve always thought that since test/est ratios are important, that AIs might be able to have favourable effects used simply by themselves. Cool. There’s also a very powerful straight up est inhibitor called Arimidex out there. Very expensive, very potent, only needs to be used in small doses, sometimes every other day, and only (usually) with big bomb cycles and even then only when the nips start to tingle. I wonder what it might do if done all by itself.

    Tupac 174: Clomid is a bitch, and it makes you into one. I hate it, and will shun it from this point on. Not worth whatever effects it has kickstarting your suppressed T production facilities, IMO. SARMs are very cool, but I have absolutely no idea how to get any or even what their names might be. Too cutting-edge I suspect.

    And Hope 170, you’re right. Much of the rage/depression effects of post-cycle crashes may be caused not by est levels rising relative to depleted T, but specifically by cortisol, whose readings can shoot through the roof post-cycle. Interesting, because T-Mag is putting out a (ridiculously expensive) supplement that they claim suppresses cortisol, thereby producing anabolic effects. We shall see. In any case, way too dear for this boy.

    Like


  176. As for astrology, there’s astrology and then there’s astrology. A friend recently told me something of which I was only vaguely aware: the specific calendar configurations of our familiar Zodiac are very new, and exist partly because of the effects of a lawsuit earlier last century. It’s an ersatz tradition, by no means representative of astrology as a whole. There are enormous numbers of astrologies out there, many of which do rely much or even at all on such things as when in the year you were born.

    Opened my eyes a tad. Apparently astrologies not only go waaaay back, they’ve had a very complex history of interactions with the Church, which has tried with varying degrees of success (not much as far as I can tell) to Christianize astrology. Since so much of what we think of as “astrology” is an invented tradition, like “Wicca”, “Highland Scotland”, “Hatha Yoga”, “Christmas” and so many others (odd how many of our “ancient traditions” were made up by Victorians), I’ll reserve judgment about the worth of the field of astrology as a whole.

    But man, whatever its merits as science, astrology is still fantastically effective as pickup material! I haven’t used it that way recently, but man! I’ve talked with brilliant, successful professional women, with new age airheads, with high-school dropout gum-snappers, and they ALL buy that shit! They ALL do!

    Women. I love them. They’re so gullible. They’re all like Fox Mulder: They want to believe. Give them something to believe, and they’re yours.

    Like


  177. Czar,

    Would you be open to sharing your birth details (on or off the board), I would love to take a look at your natal chart.

    As I said, as someone who prides myself on being clear, succint and a researcher of truth as well as a skeptic at heart or most things, Astrology (on the surface) doesnt appear to have much validity, however as someone who has seen it be so detailed and descriptive over and over for 10 years, I know that it works.

    Like


  178. Part of the reason for Astrology’s popularity isnt the horoscope predictors of the month in the back of magazines but because people (overtime) notice the similarities amongst people born under certain sun signs and even though that perspetive is rather limited, it is often enough for people to delve further into the entirety of Astrology to learn more.

    Women appear to be more inclined to have an interest in Astrology, mainly because women may just be more inclined to notice sublties and make certain connections in observance of people.

    Like


  179. Czar,
    “Debunked” by who? The same folks who brought us the Humanist assault? C’mon. They say you should know what you’re talking about before you trash something. If those who “debunked” TMOA had actually read what it was saying there’d be no need to “debunk” it in the first place-Cornelius is simply saying in the book THAT ASTROLOGY IS NOT SCIENCE. And I wholeheartedly agree.

    But that doesn’t mean that it does not “work”-which brings me back to the original question which you have ducked, yet again. Have you ever actually been to an astrologer, Czar? Hmm?

    Ad Hom? How can there have been such a thing when you have yet to answer, directly, the questions put forth?

    😉

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  180. 180/182: Some years ago, I computed my natal chart using my birthplace and birth time down to the minute.

    Here’s an excerpt:
    “Rising Sign is in 04 Degrees Sagittarius
    You are known for being open, frank, outgoing and honest. At times, though, you are also blunt and quite indiscreet. Others have to learn not to take everything you say personally, because you usually do not mean any harm. You appreciate living your life in a straightforward and simple manner — you dislike social niceties and consider them to be hindrances to real communication. You have lots and lots of energy and tend to become quite restless if you feel confined. You demand the freedom to do as you choose — you must be self- directed or you feel trapped and anxious. With your abundant energy, you enjoy being outdoors, and you should be attracted to physical exercise or to those forms of sport which can help you burn off some of that excess energy. Very gregarious, you love to socialize — your innate enthusiasm livens up any gathering.

    Sun is in 15 Degrees Cancer.
    Very emotional and sensitive, you have an intuitive understanding of the “vibes” around you. You tend to be quite generous, giving, loving and caring, but only when your own needs for emotional support, love and security have been met. If they are not met, you tend to withdraw into yourself and become very insecure and selfish. Your home and family (especially your mother or the person who played that role for you early on) represent security for you and thus assume a larger-than-life importance. Very sentimental, you have vivid and long- enduring memories of the past. No matter how well adjusted you are, you will always need a secret quiet place of your own in order to feel at peace. Feeding others can give you great pleasure you would enjoy being part of a large family.

    Moon is in 24 Degrees Scorpio.
    Your feelings are very intense, never superficial. You tend to be either very angry or very sad or completely and totally happy. Your moods are deep, extreme and not always completely understood by yourself or by those with whom you have to deal. Emotionally, you tend to prefer to live at the cutting edge of life, pushing your reactions to the ultimate extremes, even if the results are dangerous or upsetting. You are easily jealous and very suspicious — you require a great deal of emotional reassurance. A good detective, you are very curious about deep and mysterious things, especially human nature and motivations. Be careful not to be ruthless, tactless or too overly frank or you will meet with much resistance from others.

    Mercury is in 06 Degrees Cancer.
    Your emotions tend to rule your thought processes. You have difficulty seeing life objectively. You have an excellent memory, especially about things to which you have formed an emotional bond. You prefer ideas and thoughts that are known and familiar, and therefore tend to dislike fads or radical ideas. The beliefs and traditions of your family and culture are very important to you. Your thinking becomes quite unclear when you are emotionally shaken — try not to make major decisions when you are upset. Let things calm down first.

    Venus is in 21 Degrees Cancer.
    You like to be very close to other people. You need emotional support yourself and are willing to give it to others. When you feel unloved and insecure, you can be very jealous and possessive. You are not interested in casual or superficial relationships — only deep emotional involvements interest you. Your faithful devotion is one of your greatest gifts, but be careful not to become too dependent on others. Learn to stand on your own two feet and demand your own rights once in a while.

    Mars is in 00 Degrees Virgo.
    Very careful and systematic, you pay great attention to details. You are always seeking perfection and sometimes get bogged down searching for the ultimate when adequacy would have been sufficient. You dislike abstractions, preferring whatever is practical, useful and demonstrable. You have a strong and enduring sense of personal responsibility, and you demand that others be as responsible and upright as you are. Very critical of yourself and others, sometimes you carry this too far and become overly intolerant of others and their right to choose their own lifestyles.

    Jupiter is in 23 Degrees Taurus.
    Growth only occurs for you after you have found a stable lifestyle and a dependable, protective and secure environment. You are at your best when those around you provide you with a great deal of affection and support. When you feel insecure or threatened, you tend to become possessive and grasping and self- indulgent. You are an inveterate collector with an expensive preference for all the good things that life has to offer.

    Saturn is in 03 Degrees Leo.
    Extremely self-reliant, you set very high standards of conduct and decorum for yourself, and you expect others with whom you associate to be that way, too. It is important that you had a strong father figure or role model early in life to mold your life course and direction. When you feel that those around you are unworthy or behaving badly, you withdraw, preferring solitude rather than associating with those who might besmirch your reputation.

    Uranus is in 03 Degrees Scorpio.
    You, and your peer group, demand to confront life at its deepest and most meaningful levels. Very compulsive and obsessive in your approach to everything, you will avoid anything that is casual or superficial, especially when it comes to relationships. You will seek out and explore new methods of healing as well as different ways to deal with deep-seated emotional problems.

    Neptune is in 11 Degrees Sagittarius.
    You, and your entire generation, are heavily involved in investigating and idealizing foreign and exotic intellectual systems and religious philosophies. The most extreme ideals will be pursued with gusto. You will be at the forefront of humanitarian attempts to improve the lot of those who are in need of assistance. You will be comfortable with the concept of the “global village.”

    Pluto is in 09 Degrees Libra.
    For your entire generation, this is a time of radical changes in society’s attitude toward marriage and interpersonal relationships. There is a general fear and awe at the power inherent in making emotional or contractual commitments — they will not be entered into lightly.

    N. Node is in 10 Degrees Scorpio.
    You have a special aptitude for working by yourself, or with a like-minded group of dedicated individuals. Once you’ve committed yourself to a person or group or project, your loyalty and devotion are total until the group’s goals have been realized. Not at all gregarious by nature, you’re uncomfortable around strangers, greatly preferring to be in known and familiar situations. Others may regard you as shy or eccentric, but those who know you well are aware of the intense loyalty that you have to your friends.

    Funny, it doesn’t say that I don’t believe in astronomy 😉

    If any of you read the above and you feel like this could be you as well – post your sign and we’ll compare.

    Oh, and if you feel like this sounds like you, too, and then click the link below, you will understand my scepticism:

    You have a need for other people to like and admire you, and yet you tend to be critical of yourself. While you have some personality weaknesses you are generally able to compensate for them. You have considerable unused capacity that you have not turned to your advantage. Disciplined and self-controlled on the outside, you tend to be worrisome and insecure on the inside. At times you have serious doubts as to whether you have made the right decision or done the right thing. You prefer a certain amount of change and variety and become dissatisfied when hemmed in by restrictions and limitations. You also pride yourself as an independent thinker; and do not accept others’ statements without satisfactory proof. But you have found it unwise to be too frank in revealing yourself to others. At times you are extroverted, affable, and sociable, while at other times you are introverted, wary, and reserved. Some of your aspirations tend to be rather unrealistic.

    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect)

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  181. DA — I think my theory holds — when women have independent income, freedom from social censure, they will pursue the Alpha Male as long as they can, then choose either a friend or IVF/Sperm banks for single motherhood.

    That seems pretty consistent. The CIA World Factbook, has TFR for Tunisia, Iran, Algeria — all around 1.7, below replacement rate. No feminists there I think. But urbanization, rising female income, anonymity? Yes.

    This is the basic social tension: women do not like, in aggregate (individuals differ) monogamy and the nuclear family. They would rather have the Alpha Males then single motherhood. Men in aggregate (a few Alphas to the contrary) prefer the nuclear family since it’s a better deal for them. Regular access to sex, and kids, as opposed to none.

    Women are getting their way, and will simply have to live with the costs of getting what they want. Constant, low-level misogyny from the excluded betas.

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  182. Czar 183-
    Actually, Czar, the horoscope fragments you’ve presented most definitely points to you being a Doubtin’ Tom, LOL. Among other things, combinations of Saturn and Neptune, which you have, make for Agnostics/Atheists.

    I’m just finishing up my first shift and will be going back for the second soon; but I just wanted to thank you for stepping up front and to let you know that I’ll get back to you w/a bit more precise info once I’m back at the lab.

    But what I can say right now, based on what I see, is that you have to watch your health, and always have. In particular, allergies, which may be fierce, and vision; of course, the classic Cancer tendency to gain weight, combinated w/the Archer on the Ascendant, the most personal point in any chart, speaks to potential weight problems. And then there’s the 6th house Jupiter, ruler of the Ascendant, in Taurus-another Sign known for its weight struggles.

    I’d say that you either favor your mom lookswise, and/or her side of the family; but I’d also say that the combination of the Lights (Sun and Moon) speaks strongly to the early death and/or separation of a parent, most likely the mother; either that, or in some way she’s “compromised” somehow.

    The position of Saturn also speaks of some degree of above average difficulty with dad; in fact, w/the position of Neptune in your chart, it wouldn’t surprise me if you were adopted.

    Oh, and that deal about you supposedly being religious because that’s what Sagittarius rising types are into? Fuhget ’bout it. Not you.

    I’ll hold here. More later tonight. We have much to discuss.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  183. Hi Pat,
    Interesting observations and comments. Yea, astrology’s been around longer than all of the major religions and then some. And to be sure, there are a lot of quacks and nutters in the game. But every so often, you run accross the real deal.

    There are a few good books out there that deal with the history of astrology in the West, and some deal with it in the East as well. They repay close study.

    As for the ladies, well, we all wanted to believe in the Markets-right?;)

    Salaam
    Mu

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  184. Mu’Min 156 —

    Anyway, I think Dave would do well to take more risks in his life. In short, he needs to get laid alot more than he does, and he needs to experiment with women more. Start out with a few strong 6s and 7s to build up confidence, and go from there. What do you think?

    Sure, absolutely. He needs experience. Nothing builds confidence and hardness better than a track record of successful penetrations. And seductions. Starting easier is the obvious way to go.

    I’ve tried that kind of advice, and so have a number of others. It’s always a no go. Those that will have him he doesn’t want kind of thing. No amount of creative thinking will budge him. I’ve also tried insulting and shaming him into getting off his behind. That doesn’t get much of any purchase either. There’s a determination not to be moved. As well, he does have his comfortable ways of getting emotional attention, if not sex.

    But I don’t mean to discourage your efforts. The others that have tried to talk to him on here have been either white guys mostly (some women, and maybe Hope way back when, not sure) or a time or two black girls. No black guys that I can recall. Not sure if that matters, but nothing else is workin.

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  185. Regular access to sex, and kids, as opposed to none.

    Given how my male friends complain about the lack of sex in their monogamous relationships, I don’t see how marriage offers regular access to sex, especially high quality, enjoyable sex. Of course, this leads to question if bad sex is better than no sex.

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  186. 177 Czar:

    As chick crack is concerned, there is enough wonder in science to baffle her mind and wet her pants.

    Ah, but the wonder of the known can never quite match the wonder of the “unknown.” Call it a feature or a bug of the humanimal, but there it is.

    What is more *enchanting*: the magic trick before you know how it’s done, or after you’ve figured it out?

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  187. 178 PatrickH:

    Tupac 174: Clomid is a bitch, and it makes you into one. I hate it, and will shun it from this point on.

    If you’re talking about *after* a cycle, I totally agree with you. It once sent me into a terrible depression, and I would tear up while watching sappy movies. I felt like a bitch. It gave me a greater understanding of what women go through during their menstrual cycles. I would hate to have to deal with that every month.

    But when you adjust the dose for a long-term poor man’s TRT, it aint so bad. Well, it really didn’t do much of anything in my case, but I know others combine it with HCG when they can’t get a script from an endocrinologist.

    SARMs are very cool, but I have absolutely no idea how to get any or even what their names might be. Too cutting-edge I suspect.

    Same here, but I’m keeping an eye out.

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  188. Mu saidConnie Rice – NOT Condi Rice, but Connie Rice – once said that America’s inner cities are akin to the Third World,

    I once read a study that stated AA who live in inner cities have a lower life expectancy than the citizens of some third world countries. Very sad.

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  189. Chic like Guidos
    1. they have nice bodies
    2. often goodlooking

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  190. 189 – Tupac: I understand what you are referring to, but in a sense science is all about the unknown.

    And when it comes to game – we all know which scenario wins:

    Scenario A:
    She: “Do yo believe in horoscopes?”
    He: “Yes. What zodiac sign are you?”

    Scenario B
    She: “Do you believe in horoscopes?”
    He: “Fuck no! Hahaha. Are you going to tell me now that your horoscope told you that you’ll get laid tonight? Because I can’t see that happening.”

    Stuff like the “queer universe” is great chick crack when presented right. Women don’t care about what you think, but how you feel about it:
    http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/richard_dawkins_on_our_queer_universe.html

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  191. 179 PatrickH:

    But man, whatever its merits as science, astrology is still fantastically effective as pickup material! I haven’t used it that way recently, but man! I’ve talked with brilliant, successful professional women, with new age airheads, with high-school dropout gum-snappers, and they ALL buy that shit! They ALL do!

    Women. I love them. They’re so gullible. They’re all like Fox Mulder: They want to believe. Give them something to believe, and they’re yours.

    Now now, Patrick. I really don’t think Our Muse would approve of such duplicity. That sort of behavior is more appropriate for scoundrels and rapscallions like myself, dontcha know.

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  192. 193 mine

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  193. 192 chic:

    Chic like Guidos
    1. they have nice bodies
    2. often goodlooking

    Well, now we know what kind of guys Chic digs:

    http://www.hotchickswithdouchebags.com/

    Shocked, I tell you.

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  194. 185 – No weight problems (don’t want to brag, but I can kill LMR by taking off my shirt), no family issues besides (or maybe because of) them living far away, no health concerns (despite fucken acid reflux)…

    Maybe it just doesn’t work for me?

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  195. Dave A, Doug,
    Dave, in light of Hope’s recent comments on this note, I think you may be onto something there. It is common for men to complain that their wives not only ain’t putting out like they used to, but they kinda let themselves go as well. Maybe the old saying is true, Absence makes the Heart grow fonder. A little separation does a woman, from what Hope says, good.

    Doug, LOL, I hear ya man. Its just Dave’s in what Eddie Murphy once called the “f*ckin’ years” and he ain’t lying. When I was Dave’s age, it was ON. I had my own little studio hole-in-the-wall apartment, and man, the place was jumpin’. Females left and right, because, and this is kinda sad to say but I gots to be real-in the hood, the Brotha Shortage is real. And competition among sistas is fierce. A guy w/a steady job, his own place, and halfway decent looking could pretty much write his own ticket. Let alone if he had bigger status than that. And I ain’t even gonna front, I took full advantage of it.

    So yea, we gots to work on Brother Dave, LOL. We’ll bring him along.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  196. Anon,
    Ah, you mean the same Richard Dawkins who had his ass handed to him in a debate w/Dinesh D’Souza? LOL

    Try again

    Hang tight Czar, be right w/ya

    Salaam
    Mu

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  197. Mu’min–

    but I gots to be real-in the hood, the Brotha Shortage is real.

    I hear that. And I know that. You’re not exactly my first source on that. But DA has short circuited that huge leg up for a black guy tryin to get goin by deciding he’s not interested in sistas. At all. Not even as, excuse me truly, start up or warm up. Go figure.

    So over to you Mu’min.

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  198. 171 Czar:

    [snip laser-guided scud missles and smoking crater]

    Father…?! 🙂

    My 2 cents on the astrology thing: I’ve been a skeptic for most of my life — I was poring over James Randi’s books when I was 14-15, and I still check in over at JREF at times. However…

    When I started delving into esoteric stuff, I came across a couple decent books on astrology that contained some in-depth analysis of the psychology of the types. I was bit shocked at how well it pegged me and my friends. I realize there’s plenty of room for bias, but I like to think of myself as pretty self-aware. And from that point forward, whenever I would make new acquaintances, I would try and guess their sign. The number of times I was right struck me as due to something more than chance. *Shrug*. That’s all I got.

    I agree that the whole notion of *predicting* is a bogus one. That truly is chick crack. But I’ve found value in the analysis of the environmental and developmental forces that sometimes shape our psyches. In this respect, astrology is very similar to personality tests like the MBTI. The MBTI is hardly “scientific”, but it does have some degree of utility.

    Of course, the thing that seperates the MBTI from astrology are the causal factors involved, and I wouldn’t be so presumptuous as to posit what those forces might be. I don’t think the planets have any sort of direct impact on a person’s development.

    If I had to guess, I would say it’s been my perception (thanks to a few harrowing journeys brought on by LSD) that everything in life is cyclical. There are recurring themes, if one has the ability to perceive them.

    Wheels within wheels
    In a spiral array
    A pattern so grand and complex…
    Our causes can’t see their effects…
    – Rush

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  199. @DA- What high costs are associated with smart cars?

    from articleThere’s a big distinction between dumping your wife for a younger woman, and pursuing a relationship with a younger woman after your marriage has ended

    very true.

    Chic Noir, I’m not going to say that black women are all hideous, but from what I’ve seen, black girls tend to be extremely beautiful (8-10) or unattractive (4-5) although,
    Why do you think this is so?

    an ugly black girl is more likely to have a much nicer body than her white counterparts.
    Same thing here?

    I read on another blog where someone mentioned that most often when blk girls are overweight, they still manage to have some type of shape to their bodies. I don’t know if I agree with that because I notice that American woman from all races have gut problems. having a big belly throws off or distorts a hourglass figure(most times).

    @T-Did you notice that many of the African prostitutes (behind the church) you saw in the windows in Amsterdam had no hips? I mean built st8 up and down like a man ?

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  200. @ Tupac Chopra- not so much self tanner and hair gel.

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  201. PatrickH 179 —

    But man, whatever its merits as science, astrology is still fantastically effective as pickup material! I haven’t used it that way recently, but man! I’ve talked with brilliant, successful professional women, with new age airheads, with high-school dropout gum-snappers, and they ALL buy that shit! They ALL do!

    As one become seasoned shall we say, one develops a pretty good sense when the nub of a matter is being reached, when the emotional core has been touched, when the essence is in contact.

    This is such a moment.

    Myself, I just cannot manage to pre study. Be listen attentively I can do. I can manage some impressive short term recall, with insightful queries seeking further enlightenment. I can be of skeptical mind but enough heart and spiritual OPENNESS to begin the journey to being won over.

    Does the trick.

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  202. Czar,
    OK, let’s take a look at this so far.

    I mentioned separations w/the parents, I mentioned other things, but you corroborated this; they live far away, right? Cancer, where your Sun is, represents family.

    No major health issues other than the acid reflux. I’m not a medical man, but I’m given to understand that AR can be pretty serious. At any rate, the Zodiac/Planets each govern areas of the body. Cancer and the Moon represent the stomach, Taurus, where your Ascendant ruler Jupiter is, represents the throat area.

    Not sure what “LMR” means, please explain?

    So, I think astrology is working for you, its just a matter of adjusting to what degree. I’ll have more when I’m back home, I’m on the way now.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  203. Mu said: I think alot of the angst we as Black folks put ourselves through would go away or at least be lessened, if brothas simply just came out and said, look, I’m sexually attracted to White women, OK? I like the contrasts of skin tone, and so forth, whaddy want from me?

    For some strange reason I find “The contrast in skin tone” amusing. I’ve heard a number of men mention it. I often her wht men say that they like to see dark skin against white sheets.

    mu said:But why does he have to take potshots at overweight women in the process? What’s that all about? Everyone knows that White men like Roissy don’t like that sort of thing, fair enough. Why the overkill?

    I was wondering the same thing. I am beging to wonder if he is a chubby chaser. Maybe he likes to get squashed.




    funny stuff

    Mu, I have come across white men who like women with a little meat on their bones so to speak. Not fat &sloppy, but plus sized like your love, Crytal Rein(tp) or a Lane Byrant model.

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  204. on October 2, 2008 at 12:21 am Tired of Smoke Rings

    “One rationale — a correct one in my opinion — for not giving women the vote is that the family is the basic unit of society, not the individual. And the man represents the family in public.”

    PA,

    You deserve an “atta boy” for just about the only concise and sensible comment on this thread.

    Like


  205. PA 109 —

    Speaking of the Islands, I also know a Trinidadian guy – Black, looks like a light-skinned Spike Lee, but insists he’s not Black. Says things that would make a Grand Kleagle blush.

    He’s not a dark skinned South Asian Hindu is he? Trinidad be home to lots of them. Brought over by the Brits as *not slaves* but rather coolies don’t ya know, after the Brits got all moral and lead the world in outlawing first the slave trade then slavery. The South Asian Indians do not always get on so well with the blacks on Trinidad, since among other things the South Asians feel perfectly entitled to be positively aggressive in their lack of political correctness and pointed oneupsmanship. No white man’s burden for them!!!

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  206. No, he is clearly, unmistakeably, of African descent, though probably with some white mixed in. I don’t know the guy that well, but I’m petty sure that he calls himself white.

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  207. Borris, thanks for anwering my questions.

    As far as living with parents, this is made more difficult by the fact that the jobs are often somewhere else, and often enough the parents are living in the suburbs while the young want to live someplace more interesting (say with restaurants and movie theaters that don’t suck).

    When convenient, maybe young people should live with their parents so they can avoid debt. How often do people eat and restaurants or go to move theaters? I would prefer to live at home and save 700 bucks versus living on my own and just scraping by with debt galore.

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  208. Not to get too personal, but do you and your Dad talk? I mean, just in general, about Life, Love, Sex, Women?

    Yeah, my dad and I have good relationship, and we do spend quite a bit of time talking with each other, but admittedly, our conversations lean a bit towards economics and politics. Mind you, from time to time, we discuss other topics, but we do talk about his earlier days in Haiti from time to time.

    Plus, you gotta look at it this way-you’re not on film at 11, on a coroner’s slab, or on death row. For a Black man, a young one, in one of the world’s biggest urban centers, that alone is saying a lot.

    Agreed. I mean, I feel rather incompetent and pathetic compared to the white (and black and Asian) kids that I met in high school who have great careers and interesting lives, and sometimes to the point where I isolate myself from others, but compared to my older brother or cousin, I’m accomplished.

    You have written about your love for your nieces and nephews. Do you love them mostly to the extent they can be expected to succesfully climb the social ladder?

    I love them because they’re cute and warm little kids who think I’m the best person in the world. I spoil them rotten and somehow, they can appreciate it. As much as they drive me crazy, I still love them to death. I may have high hopes for them, and I wish I could bankroll Catholic school for my nephew, but as long as they’re happy, healthy, and successful, I’ll be happy too.

    Not even as, excuse me truly, start up or warm up. Go figure.

    Yeah, I just can’t use women to pump my own self-esteem to go fight for other women. It’s just not in my personality, and I’d feel rather guilty about it.

    What high costs are associated with smart cars?

    I just don’t see people paying $13,500 for a small car with no rear. For nearly the same price, I can go buy a Honda Fit which allegedly fits humans in the rear…

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  209. dougjnn and PA- A lot of race mixing has gone between the blks and Indians of T&B.

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  210. TC,
    Astrology indeed is based on cycles, which goes more to the movement of the planets than mere Signs, which in the postmodern Western world, gets far more attention than they deserve. It is the aspects, or geometrical relationships and distances, between the planets that astrology really comes alive.

    James Randi’s so-called challenge to astrology is booty, no more “in-depth” than the Humanist Magazine attack on astrology, where some 175 top shelf scientists, signed off on it more than three decades ago. Periodically one hears about a team of scientists going back to the well. As I said before, Cornelius addresses all of this in The Moment Of Astrology. I think you’ll like that book.

    Almost home now…

    Salaam
    Mu

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  211. Hey Chic,
    Wrt my earlier comments on IR dating/mating, it is well known that men are visual people, far and away moreso than women, who tend to lean more towards the audible. The whole skin contrast deal is well known and even to some extent, documented. Lots of women do like it too I should mention. And even Roissy himself has talked about this when he briefly dated/sexed a Black gal.

    As for the possibility of Roissy being in the closet on the plus-size tip? Anything’s possible, especially since he apparently doesn’t mind doing a gal during her monthly, eeeeew!

    Wrt the remaining White Male cohort liking gals built for comfort than speed, in my experience I don’t see that much. Its much more Brothas and the Latin Kings who go in for that.I honestly think a lot of that has to do w/fear on the part of the White boys. I mean you gotta admit, y’all Sistas know how to put it on a man, and back that thing up! LOL

    Salaam
    Mu

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  212. Why do you think this is so?

    I’ve noticed that some black women tend to have masculine faces that have much stronger masculine tastes than their white counterparts. A white girl can have a youthful boyish face (especially the white girls with an ass), but some black girls have faces that have adult male characteristics. So, from what I’ve seen, sometimes, you’ll find black girls with great bodies (large breasts and ass and a waist), but her face is extremely masculine. There’s a girl at work who’s the perfect example of this. She has a great body, and hell, she can even fufill my nail and high heel fetishes, but she looks like a boy, especially when she doesn’t have a weave. I wouldn’t say that she’s *ugly*, but her face just isn’t sexually attractive.

    As for the distribution of beauty, I’ve noted that black women in the media tend to be just as attractive as black women in the real world, and the “video girls” of hip hop are more common than one may suspect. This is on contrast to white women who are better looking in the real world than in the media.

    Also, beauty in the black community seems to be spread around somewhat. You’ll find attractive women in the ghetto, working class neighbourhoods, and amongst middle and upper class black women.

    For some strange reason I find “The contrast in skin tone” amusing

    The Canadian Mistress noted it too when we cuddled and held hands with each other, and she loved it.

    Not fat &sloppy

    A former fat female friend once said that being fat is no excuse to being sloppy and disgusting. Mind you, Lane Bryant and better clothes for plus size girls in the size 14-16 category has made that task much easier.

    When convenient, maybe young people should live with their parents so they can avoid debt.

    That’s essentially what I did, and I’m saving quite a bit of money by not having to pay rent. It seems a few others in my cul-de-sac have made a similar choice. Hell, by living at home, I have much more disposable income to save or squander on things that I like. Plus, I’m only a 50 minute train ride from Manhattan if I want to go out and do something. Hell, I’d rather give my parents the $700 than a faceless landlord, and my parents are willing to build an bedroom in the basement for my “private” purposes.

    the remaining White Male cohort liking gals built for comfort than speed

    Explain?

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  213. dougjnn said:Sure, absolutely. He needs experience. Nothing builds confidence and hardness better than a track record of successful penetrations

    *DEAD*

    It was written in such a Dr.Phil/Oprah manner.

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  214. muI mean you gotta admit, y’all Sistas know how to put it on a man, and back that thing up!

    I’m still learning.

    Wrt the remaining White Male cohort liking gals built for comfort than speed, in my experience I don’t see that much. Its much more Brothas and the Latin Kings who go in for that

    I agree,I was just making it known I’ve come across exceptions. Tocarra from season 3 of topmodel has wide appeal among men.

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  215. DA 211 —

    dougjnn: Not even as, excuse me truly, start up or warm up. Go figure.

    DAL Yeah, I just can’t use women to pump my own self-esteem to go fight for other women. It’s just not in my personality, and I’d feel rather guilty about it.

    Part of my reason for suggesting starting with black girls, who are likely to be easier for you at a given attractiveness level in that you’re black and well the relative black male scarcity factor that Mu’min referenced, even though you have a strong preference for white girls, is that if you try you just might like. You may have fixed ideas that won’t stay that way with real experience. Don’t know but why dismiss the possibility?

    As well not all black girls (or any other kind of girls) are such delicate flowers that DA moving on will leave them utterly crushed. Some might be happy for a friendly roll themselves. Some may have their own “early steps” kinds of issues. And, who knows, you might turn out better than THEY expect. And so on and so forth. Nothing like gettin out there.

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  216. Did anyone find it strange that Palin couldn’t name a single newspaper that she reads often?

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  217. chicnoir 326–

    *DEAD*

    Happy to be keepin’ ya amused CN. 😉

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  218. dougjnn, it could turn into a long term bootycall for DA 🙂

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  219. well the relative black male scarcity factor that Mu’min referenced

    While Mu’Min is correct on that front, such thinking doesn’t extend to every black guy, and I would imagine that there’s no market for boring railfan wikipedia reading Oreos among black females. I also suspect that the market for such men is small for women of other races as well.

    Yes, I’ve actually had girls tell me point blank that I was boring…

    dougjnn, it could turn into a long term bootycall for DA

    Everybody seems to be begging me to find a girl for some reason or another. Male friends keep bugging me to bang my “date”, my grandmother asks me every week if I’ve found a girlfriend, my mom begs me to ask my male friends for advice, and my niece and nephew are arguing if I’m gay or if I “hate women”. Hell, the kids begged my “date” to be my girlfriend…

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  220. OK, sorry folks, the wireless internet connection on my home PC is down, plus I left my charger to my smartphone home & had to wait while it charged up. Its still charging now, but at least I’m able to use that; hope to get my PC up and running again soon. Mercury is Retrograde, afterall.

    Its been my experience that pulling White gals isn’t that hard at all, and oddly enough Doug, Dave A may find it easier to do than Black ones. Partly for the reasons he’s stated, Whie gals of a certain class and type have a higher tolerance for geeky or nerdy behaviors and interests than do the vast majority of Sistas. And there’s more than anough White gals up where Dave lives out in Queens, right?-so he can easily start there.

    Dave, your “railfan” thing is just a boy’s fascination with trains writ large. Everyboy growing up wanted that big Lionel train set, I know I did, and actually got one-a huge set that almost took up the size of a small room. So it ain’t as “weird” as you make it out to be. Guys go to different ballparks as hobbies and the like. No big whup.

    I find it interesting that you’re getting leaned on by just about everybody at this point, even your niece and nephew, LOL, and your GM sounds funny in an endearing way. People are concerned about ya, man. Man shall not live by bread, or railfaning, alone!

    Salaam
    Mu

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  221. Tupac 194:

    If our Muse is a woman–and she is–then she wants to believe. She wants the world to be mysterious, with its secrets always on the verge of being revealed but somehow never quite getting there.

    Our Muse would rather be bullshitted entertainingly than told the truth boringly. Tell the truth interestingly is best of all–it’s icing on the cake (truth being the icing, entertainment the cake). Lie boringly is the worst–thin unnourishing gruel. But if comes down to being bored truthfully or being bullshitted entertainingly, women will take being bullshitted every time.

    If your bullshit is well-crafted, designed precisely and sensitively to appeal to her, well then it’s a sign that you have understood her, appreciate her wants and needs, and have put considerable effort into providing for her. A bullshit routine, even if it’s bullshit, can appeal to even the most severely intellectual, honest, probative and discerning of women, as our Muse most certainly is, because it’s a sign that you care enough to put some effort into your crapola-mongering bs routine.

    The cardinal sin with women isn’t lying to them. It’s boring them. The Truth: that life is meaningless, there’s no spiritual dimension, no life after death, psychic phenomena are (mostly) non-existent, well they just don’t want to hear that. (Neither do I, now that I mention it. Depressing!)

    But a world of mystery, enigmatic, alluring, elusive, full of depths and currents and layers and meanings within and beyond meanings, of radiant significance, hidden passageways, secret gardens, whispered confidences…a world that is not obvious, predictable, mechanical, controllable and comprehensible…now that is the kind of world women want to live in…or at least hear about while esconced in a comfortable chair sipping a chai latte.

    Regale her with stories of that world, pitched perfectly to her tastes, and she will be yours indeed. Duplicitious? Pah! She knows exactly what you’re doing. Do it well, and she’ll love you for it.

    As Homer Simpson once said to Marge: “Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie, the other one to listen.” Men and women have been doing this two-step partner dance for millenia.

    And why ever not? It’s fun!

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  222. Pat,
    Thanks so much for keeping the thread in play, and as well for yor very interesting thoughts.

    I think at this point it’s important to try and tease out the particulars of what we’re examining here, which I submit is in two parts:

    1. The fundamental premise and basis of Game, and its “official” position wrt Astrology

    2. The fundamental premise and basis of Astrology, and whether it indeed “works” independent of the Game’s view, or for that matter, the view of women.

    Also, it must be noted that Tupac Chopra and Czar kind of act as skeptics/interlocuters in the discussion; the latter has graciously provided us w/a considerable fragment of his horoscope w/which we can apply some of the principles of astrology to see how they do. I have not finished w/my examination of Czar’s birthdate, and will return to it soon.

    OK…

    A key premise of Game rests on a THEORY known as Evolutionary Psychology, the study of human behavior based the biological adaptations humans have made to varying environments over thousands of years.

    A key premise of Astrology is that, by a detailed study of the movement of the planets, one can get a better understanding of human affairs, even down to the individual level.

    Now…

    Major proponents of Game take a derisive view of astrology and call it “chick crack” on the basis that astrology fails to stand up to any scientific tests. This would be fine, for the SC isn’t the only or first ones to have such a view of astrology; but the particular problem w/Gamers is that they deride one area of human study w/a rational that is used by others who take a similar view of Evolutionary Psychology, because Evo-Psych is hardly something that is “settled law” among academics and indeed, is hotly debated in some quarters. In fact, Psychology on a whole, oif whatever stripe, fails to meet the standard definition of what a “science” is, and is itself viewed in derisive terms by more “hard” science professionals.

    I believe, if one wanted to, they could make the case that in this respect Gamers are patently intellectually dishonest.

    Now, having said all this, let me say that for my part, I DO see much validity in the theory of Evo-Psych; it to my satisfaction, explains a great deal of who we are, and how we came to be.

    Both Tupac Chopra and Czar has cited studies that, supposedly, conclusively invalidate astrology. My response has been and is, that those studies are fundamentally flawed. Why? Because they violate a key tenet of a rule scientists themselves created, that the participants and organizers of said experiment or test have a marked influence on the outcome of said experiment or test. It is a known fact that the scientists who have a vested interest in “debunking” astrology have proven themselves to be woefully incompetent of even the most basic building blocks of astrological understanding, and here I must include the so-called Amazing Randi, who is neither an academic nor an informed skeptic.

    Moreover, based on the statements made by my interlocuters in as many days, Tupac Chopra and Czar, astrology DOES indeed have at least *some* validity, based on in the former, his own investigation into certains aspects of astrology, which by his admission are more psychologically(!) based, and in the latter, a tacit admission of a potentially debilitating health condition, acid reflux. In my introductory remarks on the horoscope fragment presented by Czar, I specifically mentioned health concerns, and while I fully admit that I was wrong as to those specifics, nevertheless I was correct that Czar did have some health concern. After that concern was revealed by Czar, I was able to explain, on the basis of astrological principles, those areas of the body the health concern, again, acid reflux, was reflected astrologically.

    To move to the question of whether women dig “chick crack” such as astrology and why, Pat’s recent remarks are something I would agree with. However, women hardly have the corner on wanting to be BS’d.

    Recently, Roissy started a thread dealing with the question of Prostitution, where he explicitly states that he is too much of a romantic to wish to enter into such an arrangement himself. In my later comments, I mention the autiobiography of a Victorian gentlement, Henry Spencer Ashbee’s My Secret Life, where he adopts the pen name “Walter”. If one takes the time to read the pages of that huge volume, he says the very same thing that Roissy says-moreover, the entire premise of the Seduction Community comes a lot closer to Roissy and Walter’s view than Roissy’s friends who visited hookers. Proof positive that men can and do want to be enchanted, too.

    As I said, when time permits, and Inshallah, I’ll be back to continue my examination of Czar’s horoscope.

    Comments, invited.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  223. Belief is a powerful thing. Even a mind that is devoted to the rational and the scientific method cannot help but wonder at the human capacity to change reality itself with mere belief. This is only a small piece of the power continuum that “game” taps into, and most of us sometimes use it to our advantage, often without realizing it.

    People en masse want to believe, and given something to believe in, they will. Ssee the next conversation on the intimate connections between religion, cults, politics and power. Great leaders or great charlatans know how to tap into this basic human motive. Most of us know it casually but do not examine it to the extent that we could and probably should.

    For instance, take the placebo effect. The more expensive the “medicine,” the better it actually works to relieve the pain. The brain produces its own chemicals in psychological response to a drug that has been deemed “superior.” Dan Ariely goes into this in Predictably Irrational. The pill used in the study is nothing more than a sugar pill, but many subjects reported pain relief.

    “The pills had a strong placebo effect in both groups. But 85 percent of those using the expensive pills reported significant pain relief, compared with 61 percent on the cheaper pills. The investigators corrected for each person’s individual level of pain tolerance.”

    The human faith in the medical industry, in the reputation and skill of doctors, actually helps people heal. In a double-blind study, patients with Parkinson’s disease who thought they had received a transplant of human neurons into their brains, but who really hadn’t, report an improved quality of life one year later.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/04/040408084240.htm

    One patient said she was not physically active before the surgery, but in the year following surgery she resumed hiking and ice skating. Another study finds that common knee surgery outcomes are no better than that of placebo surgery. These effects are also observable in other areas, for example Eastern medicine and acupuncture, by which Western scientists are sometimes baffled.

    This is not to say that modern medical advances are not truly great feats, but rather that there seems to be a synergy and link between the human psyche and body. Science is as yet unable to get at this link directly, but it can be affected indirectly through the reputation of science and its achievements.

    It would be folly to dismiss this quirk of the mind as mere foolishness and pretend that the human animal can transcend its right-brain functions. Politicians, magicians, gamesters, astrologers, and anyone who wants something out of you and me know just how valuable and vulnerable we can be when we are unaware of the depth of our own irrationality.

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  224. This discussion reminds me of a scene in Little Women. Meg, in an effort to please her husband John, asks him about politics. He responds enthusiastically, and tells her all kinds of things, but Meg finds it all quite boring and privately concludes that politicians seem to exist only to insult each other. I think her attitude would be shared by quite a few, and perhaps most, women. Historically, an interest in politics has been seen as unfeminine (Rome, where everyone was obsessed with politics, being an exception), and if feminine is defined as ‘characteristic of the female gender’, that’s probably true. Most of the women and girls in my life have not been all that interested in politics (with the exception of the girls in college and law school). It’s too conflict-driven and competitive, which turns a lot of women off.

    However, that’s not true of all women, just as it’s not true of all men. There are plenty of men out there whose eyes glaze over at the very thought of politics. And there are plenty of women out there who are very passionate about politics, and who are also bright and well-informed.

    101 Hope

    I don’t advocate disenfranchisement, merely expressed my opinion that women are not fit for leadership or voting. On this point my husband disagrees with me, and cites the example of Spain attempting to invade England when Elizabeth reigned, perceiving weakness in a country ruled by a female — of course, Spain failed. He also says that he would sooner fight for a queen than a king.

    Hope, your husband sounds like Montesquieu in this respect. Montesquieu believed that women made the best leaders, provided they were balanced leaders like Elizabeth. He believed that such leaders value both necessary risk (as opposed to risk for the mere sake of risk or glory) and security — i.e., they balance masculine and feminine impulses to the benefit of their countries. Elizabeth took over a weak, bankrupt nation riven with religious conflict and then presided over a golden age that gave birth to the British Empire. A key to that, in Montesquieu’s opinion, was her “feminine” religious policy, which was tolerant of religious differences (Elizabeth believed in freedom of conscience), as opposed to the “masculine,” martial policies of her Protestant brother Edward and her Catholic sister Mary, both of whom persecuted people of the “opposing” religion. Montesquieu also thought that soldiers are more roused by the idea of fighting for a queen than a king — as long as she’s a “warrior” queen, like Elizabeth, who appeared on the battlefield wearing armor and gave a brilliant speech about how she had the “body of a weak and frail woman, but the heart and stomach of a king, and a king of England, too.” Elizabeth was the most beloved monarch in English history. And key to her image was her deliberate cultivation of her Virgin Queen persona: she had no lord or master, but she did have a mistress — England. The people ate it up.

    I think Montesquieu’s observations are brilliant. I don’t agree with him that the best leaders are women, but I do agree with him that women can make very great leaders. The key is that they have to be balanced, but that’s true of male leaders as well. A leader needs to be able to recognize when a risk is acceptable and when it’s not. Society exists, after all, to provide a measure of security to our everyday lives. On the other hand, a leader needs to be able to recognize when peace and security aren’t worth the price, like Winston Churchill did in the 1930s (his words to Neville Chamberlain following Munich: “You had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you’ll still have your war”). Basically, a leader needs to be able to embody the best of both masculine and feminine virtues. Perhaps Montesquieu believed women were better able to do this, because masculine women aren’t scorned the same way feminized men are.

    I agree that our political culture has become much too feminized — in a bad way, not a good way. I actually think our politicians could value the “feminine” traits of cooperation and compromise a lot more. Compromise isn’t a dirty word. In a free nation of 300 million people with 300 million different opinions on any given issue, compromise is necessary. But on the issues themselves, I find the feminization appalling. The idea that social, emotional issues, like abortion, are the most important, the idea that the government should provide a teat that everyone can suck on from cradle to grave, the idea that the government is there to take care of us, that we have no obligation, as individuals, and to our fellow citizens, to take care of ourselves — all of these disgust me, and they are the result of bringing a more emotional, nurturing perspective to politics. I don’t think it’s bad to be nurturing and sympathetic in private. And I don’t think compassion is even bad in public — provided it doesn’t override good sense. There’s room for the heart in politics, but politics should be far more the province of the head. And the truth of human nature is that most of us have no motivation to work if someone else is there to take care of our every need. Anyone who’s ever tried to get a lazy kid to do something should know that.

    But I disagree this is all the fault of female voters and a sign that women have no place in politics. Men make up about half of the electorate; that should, in theory, provide some balance, the kind of balance Montesquieu believed was necessary. And given that women tend to vote in line with their husbands — though this is not always true — the “masculine” perspective should, in theory, have at least a slight edge. The truth, though, is that a lot of “feminized” policies have plenty of supporters among men, for various reasons, the most predominant one being there are a lot of lazy, shiftless people out there, male and female, who’d be happy to have the government take care of everything for them. (A lot of them end up as perpetual criminal defendants, but that’s a rant for another day.)

    A final note about voting. We could argue till the cows come home about who should and shouldn’t be allowed to vote. We could say women can’t vote, stupid people can’t vote, people who don’t own a certain amount of property can’t vote, black people can’t vote, people born on Leap Day can’t vote. I think there’s a pretty good argument to be made that most eighteen-year-olds are far too inexperienced to vote. But this is the system we’ve chosen, and, to borrow from Sir Winston again, it might not be good, but it’s better than everything else.

    One reason that I think republican government is superior to any other system — at least our form of republican government, the American form — is that, ideally, at least, it respects people as individuals. It acknowledges that individuals have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That we are here on earth to pursue our own ends, not to live as slaves to the Group or the King. (I have no use and no sympathies for authoritarian governments. I think they are absolutely revolting, both in practice and ideologically.) And that a government that becomes destructive of those ends should be abolished. Rousseau could say some pretty crazy things, but I absolutely agree with him when he wrote that government and society exist for the benefit of the people, and that people agree to the limits on their freedom set by government and society only because those limits — the law, respect for personal property and personal safety, and so forth — make people better able to pursue their favored ends. When those limits become so all-encompassing and so invasive that people are no longer able to pursue their own happiness, the government does not deserve to exist, and anarchy is preferable to order.

    Voting is our means to express whether the government is doing its job. As far as I’m concerned, every citizen has the right to express that, whatever their gender, color, intelligence, or creed. And if people don’t care to express that, I don’t have a problem with that. I really hate “get out the vote” campaigns. If people don’t want to vote, that’s their business. Just as if they don’t want to speak, that’s their business. We all have rights; it’s up to us to choose to exercise them. And frankly, I would prefer that people who don’t care enough to pay attention to politics and elections not vote. If some ignorant person is only voting because some celebrity told them it’s cool, that’s a lot more cause for concern than their not voting would be.

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  225. 225 Mu:

    Lots of stuff in there to comment on, but so much that it’s intimidating even to know where to start. For all my mockery (light-hearted I hope) of women for wanting to be fooled (they know this perfectly too), you’re correct in saying women aren’t alone in this.

    There is a way of looking at the world as if it is dead: unconscious, value-free, mechanical, without purpose. Looking at the world this way allows us to apply the experimental method to understanding it. Combine the experimental method with the rigorous predictive formalism of mathematics, and you have modern science.

    Astrology is not science in this sense. It is about the meaning of natural events, it presupposes the existence of a conscious mind to which those events are related, and its “predictions” are not predictions until they produce a response in the individual for whom the “prediction” is being made.

    Astrology, and areas of human inquiry that are like it, are not attempting to describe the world as it “is”, i.e., without the intervention of human consciousness. It is an attempt to describe the world as it “seems”, or rather “what it means”, which implies “what it means to SOMEBODY”.

    Just as communications do not become meaningful until they are responded to, like a circuit only existing once it’s closed (this finding is from NLP), so too the teachings of astrology and other “sciences” of human meaning and experience, do not become meaningful until someone responds to those teachings.

    To attack astrology, or even to defend it, by comparing it to Newtonian mechanics, is to miss the point of it. Astrology is a way of teasing out meanings from astronomical events, but it is not about astronomy. It is about the person. It is about meaning, value, all that unquantifiable stuff, all that unpredictable, all that unmechanizable stuff.

    There’s no point in judging astrology for its predictive, mathematical or mechanical failures. It was never meant to be successful in those areas. It’s about finding meaning. That doesn’t mean it’s bullshit (or that it isn’t).

    This is just tip of the iceberg stuff here. I could go on, but won’t, much to everyone’s relief. Still…this is a big fucking topic…very important for much more than how we understand science or even the human personality.

    It’s about whether there’s any value in looking at the universe as if it has meaning as opposed to looking at it as if it is somehow fundamentally dead.

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  226. Hello Ladies,
    Excellent comments as always; Hope, I’ve noted the book you mentioned for further study; Elizabeth, thanks as always for the historical perspective. I’m curious to know what you think of the films made on the Elizabethan Queens? I haven’t seen any of them, but would if you give the green light.

    Also: Elizabeth, I understand that you are/were a barrister? I that’s true, I’m curious to know what you make of my most recent post on the question of Game, “Chick Crack”, etc.? One of my private fantasies is as a lawyer; I wrote the above w/that POV in mind. Thanks.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  227. 230 Mu’Min

    I’m curious to know what you think of the films made on the Elizabethan Queens?

    The ones about Elizabeth I, I haven’t been too thrilled with. It’s true that, from time to time, Elizabeth I would pick a “favorite” from among her men, whom she had flirtations with (though probably not the sexual relationships that the movies portrayed). But to make her relationships with men the primary focus of these movies, with only the occasional nod to the fact that she was a regnant queen, is to ignore the all-absorbing passion of her life: England. It’s also ignoring her very real aversion to sex and submission to men, which she had from an early age — understandably, considering what her father did to her mother, Anne Boleyn. Elizabeth had two obsessions in her life: ruling England, and remaining unmarried. After a nightmarish childhood under Henry VIII and Edward VI, and a nightmarish young womanhood under her sister Mary, Elizabeth was determined that no one should ever rule her.

    But I suspect the reason the moviemakers make romance the focus is because they think they have to in order to get women in the theater. It’s stupid. People want good stories, and not every good story has to be a romance. Oddly, the best movie portrayal of Good Queen Bess I’ve seen is in Shakespeare in Love, and she’s in that movie for all of eight minutes.

    On the other hand, I thought the recent movie about Elizabeth II, The Queen, was fantastic. I’d recommend it to anyone, especially those interested in politics. The contrast between Elizabeth II and Tony Blair is brilliantly drawn, and Blair’s speech in defense of Elizabeth should be moving to anyone who still believes in honor, duty, and stoicism in the face of adversity.

    Also: Elizabeth, I understand that you are/were a barrister? I that’s true, I’m curious to know what you make of my most recent post on the question of Game, “Chick Crack”, etc.?

    Yes, I am, though no one besides my English friend has ever called me that before! 🙂 With regard to chick crack — I’m very much into astrology and that sort of thing, though in a fannish way, not a “I study it seriously” way. And if I’m at a carnival, I’ll definitely have my fortune told. Whether it’s realistic or not, whether it’s true or not, it’s darn fun to talk about. Besides, I’ve had horoscopes predict great fame and fortune for me, so I have a vested interest in believing them. 😀 And I’m a Gemini, and the whole dual identity thing fits my personality.

    On a more serious note, I don’t pretend to know the secrets of the eternal, but I do believe in God; I occupy some kind of vague space between Protestantism and Deism. I do believe in a kind of destiny, though I don’t think it’s ever written in stone. And I don’t know how anyone in the world can deny that there’s such a thing as luck. (Anyone who does deny it is free to play my little brother in cards.)

    So yes, I do find men who are open to faith and belief more compelling; I doubt I could marry an atheist, even though I don’t go to church. I don’t know if that has anything to do with Game, but there you go.

    (Plus, I have an odd history of getting strangely appropriate fortunes in fortune cookies. For example, during college, I’d just gotten elected to a high position in the Greek system, and I was rather shamelessly gloating the next day. My sorority sisters took my out to celebrate that night at my favorite Chinese restaurant, and my fortune said, “Don’t be conceited! You might be better than others, but there is God above you.” I still have that fortune. I figure when even fortune cookies are warning you against hubris, it’s probably advice you should listen to! 😀 )

    (By the way, we were playing the whole “in bed” game with those fortune cookies, but I declined to add the phrase after reading mine, explaining to my sorority sisters that I really had no desire to be struck with lightning so soon after my triumph.)

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  228. Elizabeth, Patrick,
    Elizabeth thanks for the movie reviews.:) I guess I’ll be watching The Queen this weekend. And as for my referring to you as a Barrister, well, let’s say that the Brits are among my favorite people. Churchill’s one of my heroes.

    Although you didn’t *quite* answer my question, its completely OK. Watching you get all giddy and girlish at the mere mention of astrology is a very nice departure from a more taciturn you, and if nothing else, definitely confirms the view of astrology in the Game community. It does indeed, work.;)

    If and when you get a bit of sparetime, you might want to lookup William Lilly. Since you’re something of a history buff. I think you’ll him a lot.

    Patrick my good man, I think we’ve opened up a can of worms indeed. And since we done gone there, please allow me to share the following recent story w/all of you…

    Last weekend I had a very interesting conversation w/young woman, who like me is a member of a rather intensive astrology internet forum elsewhere on the Web. She had asked me to examine her horoscope, and that of a man whom she consider the great love of her life.

    She has the Sun in Pisces, Moon in Aquarius and a Capricorn Asc; he has the Sun and Moon in Virgo and a Libra Asc.

    On the basis of her chart, I nailed a number of things accurately, including that her chart spoke to the strong chance of her being involved in interracial/inter-ethnic relationships; her man/ex is Black. She’s White. And they have three children together.

    I also told her that, on the basis of her Venus being in Aries and in aspect to Uranus in Scorpio, that she could have worked in the Sex Business in some way; she confirmed that she was an exotic dancer for several years.

    Turning to her man’s chart, I said that w/his Mars-Pluto conjunction on the Asc, and a strong 12 house focus, that he would be a rule breaker, a “rebel without a cause”. He is currently serving a life sentence in federal prison in upstate PA.

    And, on the basis of the condition of the Moon and Saturn in this man’s chart, that he has a lot of sadness wrt his parents. His father is unknown to him, his mother a drug addict and serving lengthy time in prison herself.

    All of these things are all par for the course for me, someone who has seriously studied astrology now for some 15 years and taught it at Temple University for five; except the very end…

    My final comments in my analysis of this woman’s charts and her ex’s, was that looking at their charts reminded me of a song by Avant, a Black R&B singer. Back in 2000, on his debut album My Thoughts, he sang a remake of a popular 80s ballad “My First Love”, by Rene & Angela.

    The woman’s response was that she cried herself to sleep every night for years to that song, she missed her man, serving life now since 1999.

    Now…

    I AM NOT A PSYCHIC. No one who knows me well would accuse me of one, and if anything my performance, thus far, wrt Czar’s horoscope is proof positive of that, LOL.

    And yet, I got a very intimate, personal detail about this woman’s life, pin-point accurate. It wasn’t a Scud; it was a Tomahawk.

    How in the hell did I know that?!

    Well Mu, some of you can say, the woman’s well acquainted w/Black culture and mores, certainly she would at the very least know R&B music well, right?

    But the problem with that is, that she just didn’t know “Black Music” well-SHE KNEW THAT SONG VERY, VERY WELL, so much so, that she spent years listening to it. And I mentioned that, specifically.

    This happened, last weekend. It hasn’t been a week and I’m still trying to figure it out. I have never done anything like that before in my astrological career. Never. Where did it come from?

    I gotta tell ya, it spooked the sh*t outta me.

    Comments?

    Salaam
    Mu’Min Bey
    *Translation for Elizabeth: “Lord of The Believers*;)

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  229. 231 Mu’Min

    let’s say that the Brits are among my favorite people

    Mine, too. I love British history.

    Churchill’s one of my heroes.

    And again — mine, too. A brilliant statesman and a brilliant author. And funny as hell. If you’re looking for a good read, check out his My Early Life. Good ol’ Winston liked learning math about as much as I did. (In other words: not at all.)

    Although you didn’t *quite* answer my question, its completely OK.

    Sorry. Is there something specific you wanted me to answer? I wrote my post in a bit of a hurry.

    *Translation for Elizabeth: “Lord of The Believers*;)

    Ha ha, coolness. 😀

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  230. Mu’Min,

    If you’re interested in seeing Elizabeth I portrayed on film, ignore the Blanchett Elizabeth movies, they suck. And horribly inaccurate. Get your hands on the BBC miniseries Elizabeth R. with Glenda Jackson in the title role. Not only is it incredibly well-done and engaging, it’s very, VERY historically accurate to boot.

    Glenda Jackson as a young Elizabeth:

    Glenda Jackson as an older Elizabeth:

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  231. Hi Elizabeth,
    Will do; it might interest you to know that Churchill was a Sagittarian. So am I.
    I was just wondering what you thought of the way I put my argument together wrt Game & the Question of Astrology-as-“Chick Crack” (a term that, due to the out and out problems the Gaming community has wrt its own foundations, is highly problematic, but is also quite disrespectful to women on a whole, too I might add, to say nothing of a slap in the face of Astrology); its always good to get a pro’s opinion when attempting to build and make a persuasive case.

    Thanks.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  232. T, Elizabeth,
    *Still freaked out from the story I just told*

    T, thank you, I think those movies were also shown on HBO, am I correct? Speaking of which, the series they did on John Adams, starring Paul Giamatti (hoped I spelled that right; loved him in the Planet of The Apes remake) is on my To Do list.

    Elizabeth,
    I’ve seen and been through some, shall we say, rough patches in my life. When I’m feeling down and out and sorry for myself, I think of what Churchill was up against during WW2. His speech, “Our Finest Hour” is a fave of mine.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  233. Patrick 224 & 228:

    I can see my Muse is in good hands.

    (btw, have you gotten any yet?)

    Like


  234. 236 Tupac!

    Gentlemen never tell. And neither do I.

    Like


  235. Elizabeth 230 —

    Elizabeth I’s great achievement as a monarch was, quite literally, that she didn’t do much. That and the fact that, though it didn’t start out that way, over time her hold on power became very firm and wholly uncontestable. She did indeed become loved by her subjects and respected by her court. This was in part due to a sort of chivalrous cult that grew up; i.e. a male yearning at the time in that culture for a figure such as her, but she also was well aware of this, and used it masterfully. She did so not only to ensure her power and survival despite Catholic plots (that was the nature of the civil division both within Britain and within Europe at the time) but also to advance the power and prosperity of her country.

    It was an accomplishment to not do much, other than take measures to ensure she remained in power. Foreign adventures were always being urged upon her; that’s what great or even middling princes did. She didn’t. Well, she did some, but always resisted and was half hearted about it, never raising all that much money for the purpose, and so on.

    She was a low taxes and limited government, but support the arts and industry, sort of head of state. Laissez faire except in so far as direct threat to her rule by Catholic conspirators (Mary Queen of Scots and her circle) was concerned, and there she didn’t want to believe it ran to Mary herself for the longest possible time.

    Elizabeth I did not beat the Spanish Armada back. To some limited extent the privateering tradition (which she had very much allowed to flourish) English seamen such as Drake did, but mostly luck and weather and Spanish incompetence were the reason. That may be unsatisfying but it’s the truth. Elizabeth had very little to do with averting that disaster, though what she did do she did right.

    It was the half century of relative peace and low taxes under Elizabeth that enabled England to surge ahead in it’s first true “golden age”. This was famously reflected in the arts, in Elizabethan poetry and stagecraft. It was also reflected in the beginnings of the British Empire, at this stage virtually entirely a free enterprise trading and profit seeking affair. There were royal licenses but it was private (aristocratic and high bourgeoisie) capital, and almost no state direction. It was to remain in that mold until after the American Revolution.

    Like


  236. Elizabeth —

    PS: I’m glad to see you back.

    Like


  237. PatrickH 237 —

    Gentlemen never tell. And neither do I.

    There are also times when that strict code of honor is enormously convenient.

    Like


  238. 237 Patrick:

    Well, I have noticed a slight letting down of the hair on her part as of late…

    Just axin’ 😉

    Like


  239. 238 dougjnn

    Elizabeth I’s great achievement as a monarch was, quite literally, that she didn’t do much.

    It was an accomplishment to not do much, other than take measures to ensure she remained in power.

    Yes, I agree. Sometimes this is the best thing to do — the measure of a great leader is to do (or not do), not what you want to do, but what your time requires. Elizabeth made very important decisions about what not to do (persecute people for religious reasons, like her brother or sister, or periodically pursue ruinous military adventures like — well, like a great many monarchs), and that in itself shows a wisdom that, unfortunately, a lot of leaders lack. Elizabeth had a restraint that many monarchs, including her father Henry (who, whatever his faults, was a very bright man), did not have.

    Will Durant judged her to be the greatest leader in British history. That’s a title I’d reserve for my boy Winston, but I can see where he’s coming from with it. Compare Elizabeth’s non-action with the actions of a great many monarchs in and around her time, and I think it’s fairly evident why England was able to prosper. Elizabeth was what her country needed, and her people loved her for it. Even the Pope — who hated her for being a Protestant — acknowledged it. He said, “If she weren’t a heretic, she’d be the pearl of the world.” No praise is better than grudging praise from an enemy. 🙂

    PS: I’m glad to see you back.

    Danke. I spent a horrendous week drowning in a sea of medical documents, but I’m done with that now. 🙂

    Like


  240. 231 Mu’Min

    I guess I’ll be watching The Queen this weekend.

    Ooh, excellent. Helen Mirren is amazing. So is the guy who plays Tony Blair, whose name escapes me at the moment.

    234 Mu’Min

    Will do; it might interest you to know that Churchill was a Sagittarian. So am I.

    My Early Life is probably my favorite of Churchill’s books. And that’s high praise, considering his body of work.

    its always good to get a pro’s opinion when attempting to build and make a persuasive case.

    Oh, I get it! I think you did quite well. Your point that many of astrology’s critics don’t even really know what they’re talking about is especially good. It’s hard to shoot something down if you’ve never even bothered to study it.

    I’ve seen and been through some, shall we say, rough patches in my life. When I’m feeling down and out and sorry for myself, I think of what Churchill was up against during WW2. His speech, “Our Finest Hour” is a fave of mine.

    YES. Now there was a man who could give an inspiring speech without b.s.ing. He was determined, but he was also realistic. It’s a combination I appreciate far more than the aspirational, unrealistic stuff that’s usually hailed as great rhetoric.

    Like


  241. Elizabeth, Doug,
    I’m curious to know-what do you make of Cromwell? And Niccolo Machiavelli? His masterpiece, The Prince, remains one of of my all time faves, alongside The Art of War (not his, but Sun Tzu’s), and The Book of Five Rings, of course.

    One of my favorite pastimes is to take the horoscopes of historical figures and plop down in front of the tv, and see what I can learn from the events of their lives.

    More in a minute.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  242. Elizabeth,
    Yup, Churchill is up there among my favorite orators, along w/Malcolm X, Ronald Reagan, Martin Luther King, Abraham Lincoln & Frederick Douglass.

    And I think Tony Blair was a very PM for the UK, and history will look on him well. I liked him a lot. He’s right behind Thatcher and of course, Churchill.

    What’s your take on Disraeli?

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  243. 244 Mu’Min

    I’m curious to know-what do you make of Cromwell? And Niccolo Machiavelli?

    I actually don’t know enough about Cromwell to have much of an opinion of him, but I think Machiavelli was brilliant. And I actually like his Discourses on Livy better than the Prince. Much more detailed. And lots and lots of talk about ancient Rome. 😀

    Like


  244. Elizabeth made very important decisions about what not to do (persecute people for religious reasons, like her brother or sister, or periodically pursue ruinous military adventures like — well, like a great many monarchs)

    If the British tradition of tolerance towards even dangerous dissent being a mark of strength and the proper course for a great nation didn’t originate with Elizabeth, it sure as hell was forever emblazoned into educated English minds as a worth ideal by her example. After all, under Elizabeth it worked, and worked big.

    At the same time though no of this abolutist politically correct “no profiling” mania for Elizabeth. She damn well did profile all leading Catholics in her realm, and had them watched. Watched and left alone. Unless they started to act to overthrow her. Then off with their heads. Her’s was a middle course, far “to the left” for her time. Way “to the right” for ours.

    I think for practical purposes tolerance towards the truly dangerous was born under Elizabeth in the Anglosphere tradition, and perhaps more generally in European tradition. It was something more than the usual or anyway not uncommon tolerance by the very secure. She after all WASN’T secure from Catholic intrigue ever in her reign, or at least not until very late. It was a constant threat, and for that matter for a couple more hundred years until the events surrounding the battle of Colodin and the parliamentary baring of Catholics from ever being monarchs of Britain (or various other things in the high British government) at the turn of the 18-19th century. (Neither being high watermarks of tolerance, but perhaps a necessary expedient in their time?)

    Like


  245. OK, more random, varied, and sundried thoughts.

    First, thanks Elizabeth for your appraisal. Astrologers have a close history w/the Law as you might imagine, LOL. I was speaking of the late great William Lilly, whom I think you’d like a great deal…

    He lived in the 1600s, and was born in England. He is perhaps one of the world’s greatest astrologers ever, particularly when it comes to a method known as Horary Astrology, which deals with the answering of specific questions on the basis of casting a horoscope for the exact moment a question is asked. At the height of his practice, Lilly had some 2,000 clients a year, from all walks of life.

    His best known work is called Christian Astrology (I think it was Pat who mentioned the Church’s involvement w/astrology, both pro and largely con, LOL), which was Lilly’s way to get on the good side of the powers that be. His book, nearly 400 years old, is still thee source of Horary astrology around, and astrology studens still study the sample charts he gives therein. One of them I think you’ll find of particular interest, Elizabeth. It’s called “If Presbytery Shall Stand?”, and has to do with, of course, the Civil War involving King Charles on one side, and the Presbyters on the other, if I have my English history right. This is recounted in the book The Moment of Astrology as well. Lilly came down on the side of the Rebellion against the King, and ran into a bit of legal trouble as a result as you might imagine, LOL. But he came out OK.

    Another very important thing about Lilly was that his Christian Astrology was the first ever astrology book written in the English language, and one of the first mass produced books ever, coming along right after the invention of the printing press. Now let’s see if our interlocuters know that.;)

    Lilly was the Master of Horary, and a damn good all around astrologer, who wrote easy to read books for the ages. His work repays close study, and the times in which he lived are also a fascinating study of Medieval England.

    More in a second…

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  246. Mu’min

    I’m curious to know-what do you make of Cromwell?

    Cromwell was very much influenced by Machiavelli. Translations from the vernacular Italian were available to his father, who read him avidly. Cromwell’s father was a lawyer and high adviser of Protestant leanings to Henry VIII, after Cardinal Wolsey. Many like to blame Oliver Cromwell’s father for many of Henry’s most dictatorial and absolutist excesses. There is no countervailing moral princple to absolutist or dictatorial power in Machiavelli’s The Prince. He’s entirely concerned with helping a ruler in a chronically divided and chaotic political sphere (medieval Italy with it’s endlessly waring and complexly allying city states and mini principalities and Papal states) become secure enough to aspire to greatness. That later isn’t Machiavelli’s subject.

    The English Civil War was in fact more a revolution than a Civil War. It was the first elevation of Parliament / quasi democratic government, to a position clearly superior to, and in fact dispensing with, a monarch whose right to rule had been thought to have been divinely given. It was hugely influential in America, though usually not by way of wishing to directly emulate it, outside of New England anyway.

    It pleases the restoration English to call it a Civil War so they can shudder about the French Revolution with less of a knawing realization that “it was almost us”. Well, the English Civil War WAS 150 years earlier.

    Thoroughly communist ideas were abroad at the time as well. If you aren’t already familiar with the Levellers, look them up.

    Like


  247. Mu’min

    I’m curious to know-what do you make of Cromwell?

    Cromwell was very much influenced by Machiavelli. Translations from the vernacular Italian were available to his father, who read him avidly. Cromwell’s father was a lawyer and high adviser of Protestant leanings to Henry VIII, after Cardinal Wolsey. Many like to blame Oliver Cromwell’s father for many of Henry’s most dictatorial and absolutist excesses. There is no countervailing moral princple to absolutist or dictatorial power in Machiavelli’s The Prince. He’s entirely concerned with helping a ruler in a chronically divided and chaotic political sphere (medieval Italy with it’s endlessly waring and complexly allying city states and mini principalities and Papal states) become secure enough to aspire to greatness. That later isn’t Machiavelli’s subject.

    The English Civil War was in fact more a revolution than a Civil War. It was the first elevation of Parliament / quasi democratic government, to a position clearly superior to, and in fact dispensing with, a monarch whose right to rule had been thought to have been divinely given. It was hugely influential in America, though usually not by way of wishing to directly emulate it, outside of New England anyway.

    It pleases the restoration English to call it a Civil War so they can shudder about the French Revolution with less of a knawing realization that “it was almost us”. Well, the English Civil War WAS 150 years earlier.

    Thoroughly communist ideas were abroad at the time as well. If you aren’t already familiar with the Levellers, look them up.

    Like


  248. 245 Mu’Min

    Yup, Churchill is up there among my favorite orators, along w/Malcolm X, Ronald Reagan, Martin Luther King, Abraham Lincoln & Frederick Douglass.

    Lincoln was a truly great man. It’s tragic that his life was so often unhappy. And amazing that he remained so decent throughout, with such a great sense of humor.

    Have you ever read Frederick Douglass’s autobiography? I love the part about how he learned to read.

    And I think Tony Blair was a very PM for the UK, and history will look on him well. I liked him a lot.

    It’s funny; I was just talking about Tony Blair with a friend today. Heck, if the British don’t want him, I’ll take him. I love Blair.

    What’s your take on Disraeli?

    I like him. In some ways, he was like a British Teddy Roosevelt.

    Like


  249. DA saidHell, the kids begged my “date” to be my girlfriend

    Ha
    I don’t believe you!

    Like


  250. Earlier I was giving my thoughts on the Question of Game, and its position wrt Astrology. Having laidout my initial case, and answered to some degree my critics, I should now like to proceed to another series of thoughts I’d like to share on some researches I’ve been putting myself to.

    As mentioned earlier, Game draws upon the insights and postulates of Evolutionary Psychology, which suggests that our behavior today is the result of thousands of years of human biological adaptation to the world’s varied climes. Now, as an astrologer, this is a fascinating set of ideas. Why?

    Because, as an astrologer, my major tool-by no means the single, but a major one nonetheless-is the Zodiac. The Zodiac means, literally “Circle of Animals”, and even the most casual reader of astrology tracts and the like can see that most of the “Signs” of the Zodiac are indeed animal in their formulation: Scorpio (a scorpion), Leo (a lion), Taurus (a cow/bull), and so on. Ancient wisdom holds that these Signs represent the various stages of life development on Earth. Hence the “Ages” (like the Age of Aquarius, etc.). The “lower” stages of development are said to be relegated to the more animal Signs of the Zodiac, while the more enlightened Ages belong to the relative few Signs of the Zodiac that depict human beings-like Aquarius.

    Now-

    It is my view-and this is still a theory in progress, mind you-that Astrology & Evolution-specifically for our discussion, Evolutionary Psychology-may be co-existant. Maybe even intertwined.

    In virtually every civilization on Earth, there have been, among the ruins, astrological remnants; there’s cuniform tablets that depict the horoscopes of Kings and Queens in Babylon. There are the charts of the Pharohs on their caskets in the pyramids (to say nothing of the way said innards of pyramids were astrologically adorned); there are still standing ruins of observatories and astrological measuring tools in India, and so on.

    To go back to the question of the Zodiac and Evo-Psych, clearly they both speak to Man’s Primordial Self. This is as clear as day to me, and which I have been spending some time studying. I consider myself very fortunate to stumble onto such a forum which endeavors to plumb the depths of ourselves. It is a good place to start/further my study.

    Just some introductory thoughts on this matter.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  251. 247 dougjnn

    At the same time though no of this abolutist politically correct “no profiling” mania for Elizabeth. She damn well did profile all leading Catholics in her realm, and had them watched. Watched and left alone. Unless they started to act to overthrow her. Then off with their heads.

    Yeah. She was far too clever for no “profiling.” In that regard, she was smarter than Julius Caesar, who threw away Pompey’s letters so that he wouldn’t know what officially unaligned Romans had really been on Pompey’s side.

    Of course, that speaks more to a difference in characters than intelligence. Caesar could be dangerously overconfident, while Elizabeth was by nature insecure. (Again, with good reason, given her upbringing.)

    248 Mu’Min

    I was speaking of the late great William Lilly, whom I think you’d like a great deal…

    Thanks, I’m going to have to look this guy up.

    250 dougjnn

    Cromwell’s father was a lawyer and high adviser of Protestant leanings to Henry VIII, after Cardinal Wolsey.

    I thought Thomas Cromwell was Oliver’s great-grandfather. If memory serves, Thomas Cromwell became very powerful around 1530 and was executed around 1540, because Henry blamed him for the Anne of Cleves debacle. And wasn’t Oliver born around 1600?

    *looks at Wikipedia*

    Ah. We’re both wrong. Oliver was descended from Thomas’s sister, not Thomas himself. (Assuming Wikipedia is accurate, which can be a big assumption…) And Oliver was born in 1599.

    Like


  252. Doug, Elizabeth,
    Thanks Doug for the heads up. I’m on it!

    Elizabeth, yup most certainly did read Douglass’ memoirs. Have you read Malcolm’s? He was considered one of the most important figures of the 20th century by, I think it was Time Magazine.
    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  253. Chic Noir,
    If at all possible, if you happen to run accross a birthdate for Renn, please pass it along? All I’m getting is a year, 1986, although I’ve also seen 1987. Thanks!

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  254. 255 Mu’Min

    Elizabeth, yup most certainly did read Douglass’ memoirs. Have you read Malcolm’s?

    I haven’t. I really don’t know much about Malcolm X at all, other than the general sort of stuff I learned in high school history, where he’s mentioned in, like, two lines of the textbook.

    Like


  255. two points to Pallin for admiting there is corruption of Wall St & calling Americans for living outside of their means.

    Like


  256. Elizabeth 254 —

    I thought Thomas Cromwell was Oliver’s great-grandfather. If memory serves, Thomas Cromwell became very powerful around 1530 and was executed around 1540, because Henry blamed him for the Anne of Cleves debacle. And wasn’t Oliver born around 1600?

    *looks at Wikipedia*

    Ah. We’re both wrong. Oliver was descended from Thomas’s sister, not Thomas himself. (Assuming Wikipedia is accurate, which can be a big assumption…)

    Yes, well ok. I was writing off the top of my head and didn’t fact check some details that weren’t crucial to the argument.

    Thomas Cromwell was merely Oliver’s most illustrious ancestor (in more or less the same line of work), a great great uncle, rather than his father. He’s theorized to have been an influence but maybe that’s just theory. I get the Machiavelli influence on him by way of Melvyn Bragg’s “In Our Time” BBC podcast series (actually radio 4 series which they transpose to podcasts afterwards).

    I highly recommend those btw if you don’t already know them, esp. for you the world history ones. The history of science and religion ones are also excellent. I can leave the history of philosophy ones, except sometimes when its the classics, though that will be review for you as well. You can subscribe for podcast listening while you’re eg exercising or making dinner but you can’t get back podcasts that way, only each week’s as it comes out. They’re available via the BBC Radio 4 website but who wants to listen tethered to a computer? The way to go is to uTorrent download a year’s torrent file and then import it (or all years to date) into iTunes or equivalent as a playlist. This teaching is probably coals to Newcastle.

    Like


  257. Elizabeth, please read the autobiography of Malcolm X when you have time. It is one of my favorite books. It will blow your mind when to read about how Malcolm X was able to transform from a drug addict into a well read and respected man. X was able to converse with Harvard students, and the most down and out from the inner cities of America with ease.

    Like


  258. Palin is really good at memorization and regurgitation but at times it seems as if she is reading from a teleprompter.

    Like


  259. chicnoir

    I’m tivoing it. Like everything else I do watch on tv.

    I guess I’ll have to start it up pretty soon. Everyone’s going to be yammering about it.

    Like


  260. Yes, I will shut up if you want me to. I don’t want to spoil it for you.

    Like


  261. Opps

    Yes we are.

    Like


  262. 259 dougjnn

    Thomas Cromwell was merely Oliver’s most illustrious ancestor (in more or less the same line of work), a great great uncle, rather than his father. He’s theorized to have been an influence but maybe that’s just theory. I get the Machiavelli influence on him by way of Melvyn Bragg’s “In Our Time” BBC podcast series (actually radio 4 series which they transpose to podcasts afterwards).

    I am sorry to say that my knowledge of Thomas Cromwell come mostly from…watching The Tudors on Showtime.

    (Now that Wolsey and Thomas More are dead on the show, Cromwell is really the only reason to watch. Well, okay, and the yummy and delicious Henry Cavill as the Duke of Suffolk, bu they don’t really give his character much to do, so he’s pure eye candy. Ahem. Right. Moving on….)

    Like


  263. chicnoir 263 —

    Yes, I will shut up if you want me to. I don’t want to spoil it for you

    Naaah. By no means. Carry on!

    I’m the one that’s out of time step. If I don’t want spoil (not a factor but if) it’s up to me to not read ’til I’m up to speed.

    BTW chic. CAREFUL!!!!

    You’re in danger of getting a rep as a good deal sweeter than i think may be your public intent. 😉

    Like


  264. Mu- I will find try to find Crystal’s b-day for you.

    You’re in danger of getting a rep as a good deal sweeter than i think may be your public intent

    Your right

    I must not forget that I am a cantankerous 20 something who hates men.*

    sarcasm

    Like


  265. chicnoir —

    I am a cantankerous 20 something

    Damn.

    I didn’t realize it was possible to BE both 20 something and cantankerous, particularly for a chick. Well, you learn something every day.

    I would have said the public image you were aiming for was more “bitchy ’cause I can be — next.” 😉

    Or I WOULD have said that earlier on. Like I say, all these telltale bits of sweetness keep sneakin’ out, probably when you aren’t lookin.

    Like


  266. Elizabeth,
    Yea, and I would highly recommend you checkout some of Malcolm’s speeches, among them The Ballot Of The Bullet.

    Chic Noir picks up on something else about the men I picked (and I have to add another: Chairman Mao Tse Tung. His writings, while Communist, repay close study. “On Practice” is particularly interesting to read)-all of them are self-made, and very often self-educated, men (MLK was arguably the most “decorated” in terms of formal education, being among other things, a solid Morehouse man).

    Both Malcolm and Douglass were auto-didacts; Abe Lincoln “read law” w/a judge I believe, and Reagan was a B-list actor. Yet they all transformed themselves into formidable characters who came from modest to utterly humble beginnings, and were men who were powerfully shaped and defined by their times.

    And I have to add another, kinda: Muhammad Ali. From him I learn, that you can be both good, have style, and have a politic, too. When he defiantly said “Ain’t no Viet-Cong ever call me a Nigger” he was both making a powerful argument against the Vietnam War, while at the same time making a powerful statement on the state of “race relations” in the USA, and all w/style! And, unlike soooo many celebs today, Ali did that at the height of his popularity…and after being stripped of his titles, and serving time in prison, came out and won em back.

    Another thing I loved about the men I mentioned: Malcolm, Lincoln, Churchill, Douglass- is that they are all the Epitome of what a “Great Debator” is. Any one of em could destroy an opponent. We all saw what Reagan did to Mondale (“There you go again”), and Churchill was virtually unparalleled in his ability to be amazingly quick on his feet. I forget the one lady who tried to upstage him, something along the lines of, Churchill, if you were my husband I’d make you a posioned drink, to which Churchill replied, w/o missing a beat, madam, if you were my wife, I’d drink it.

    LOL!!!

    And then, of course, there the famed Lincoln-Douglas Debates, which pols in our time could not, for a minute, hack. *Obama, cough*

    Douglass routinely dealt w/pro-Slavery voices in his day and he reduced their arguments to rubble; Malcolm X decimated AN ENTIRE PANEL OF HARVARD LAW PROFESSORS, one by one.

    There’s Reagan’s famed quote to Premier Gorbachev, “Take down this wall!”, and of course, MLK’s many, many soul stirring speeches. His cadence is what I liked most, or as we Hip Hop fans call “flow”. Speaking of which…

    Some of my favorite orators are Rappers. Seriously. Listen to NaS or Tupac, Biggie or Jay-Z, KRS ONE or Rakim, Big Daddy Kane or as T mentioned the other day, for extra credit, dig back in the crate and throw on some King Sun, or Chubb Rock, or Poor Righteous Teachers, just to name a few. Chuck D of Public Enemy, or vintage LL Cool J rounds out a nice “to do list” of street corner orators, every one of em every bit as good as the ones mentioned above, for their content and cadence, or flow.

    You know, Ramadan just ended the other day, and traditionally, during the Eid, Muslim males gather round and do two things; have an archery contest and have a Qur’anic recitation contest. In the Islamic World, there are professional reciters of the Qur’an (the translation of which mean, literally, “to recite”), and the contestants are judged not only on the sheer volume of Qur’anic verses they can successfully memorize, but also in how well they master the rolling cadence of Arabic prose. Muhammad himself could read or write, and this kinda led to a tradition of Muslims have one heck of a memory; if you ever study Malcolm X, often he didn’t use notes when he gave his speeches, just 3×5 cards w/bullet points on them.

    Anyway, lemme scroll back and get Czar’s chart, so we can proceed…

    Y’all holla back

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  267. 267 Chic:

    I must not forget that I am a cantankerous 20 something who hates men.*

    Your capitulation is duly noted.

    BTW, still undecided about runnin that train?

    Don’t knock it until you’ve tried it…

    P.S. What is your professional opinion on Robert Downy Jr.? Hot or not?

    Like


  268. Czar,
    OK, so now we return to yor horoscope which we’ve been discussing of late. To recap, here’s your planetary placements, as you’ve reported them:

    Sun 15 Cancer
    Moon 24 Scorpio
    Mercury 6 Cancer
    Venus 21 Cancer
    Mars 0 Virgo
    Jupiter 23 Taurus
    Saturn 3 Leo
    Uranus 3 Scorpio
    Neptune 11 Sagittarius
    Pluto 6 Libra
    Ascendant 4 Sagittarius

    In light of my stellar performance w/your chart in round one, I thought instead to try to focus on a bit of timing this time around, LOL. I’m just gonna mention some timeframes, and you let me know if they mean anything to you, OK?

    We’ll begin when you were about 8 years old. What happened?

    The 90s was one BIG decade for you, or should have been. The years 1990-1992 suggests a major time, followed up by Spring and Fall 1993, and again in the Fall of 1994?

    Then there’s 1997, around your 20th year or so. I’d like to know, in particular, what, if anything, went down in the Spring of that year, please?

    And in more recent years, there’s the time period late Summer 2003, early 2004, late Spring 2004-late Summer 2004.

    What happened?

    I’ll hold here. Holla back

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  269. *MU’S NOTE: It appears that Mercury Retrograde is doing its thing, LOL. The following was meant for the Beta Males thread, but hasn’t appeared yet. Apologies for the cross-post, but didn’t want to lose my thoughts.*

    Dave A,
    Over on the Great Depression thread, I had asked if you and your dad talked and you answered yes…but that wasn’t really an answer.

    I say that because I specifically asked if you and your dad talked about Women, Sex, Romance, Love, and so on. You answered that you and your dad talked about economics and politics.

    Now, I don’t know what you and your dad talk about, but the impression you gave me was that y’all don’t talk about women or sex or even loving a woman AT ALL. And I’m not beating you up about that, just trying to make the point that, as Roissy notes above, so many men, when they’re youngbucks and even boys, have no idea at all what the hell they’re doing wrt what Roissy refers to as the Crimson Arts. Dads simply do not talk to their sons about these things, and this is especially palpable when it to Black boys for the obvious reasons, but when the dads ARE around, we Black folk, Islanders, Continentals and homegrown Americans alike, have this uptight, conservative deal happening when it coms to doing the nasty (thinking of our kids doing it, that is). And as we can see, it does no one no good.

    I recall my dad…boy was he one heck of a character. He had a roving eye, liked to drink beer and slow gin or vodka, and was never w/o a cigar or a pack of Camels. Loved the racetrack and playing the numbers, and the Blackjack table at Atlantic City.

    We used to talk about women, although he never said “son, do this and say that…I would kinda just listen to him talk, you know? And, a few times, I got to see him operate a bit. Smooth. A true Southern Gentleman (recall Roissy’s “Gentleman’s C” grade he gave me?) from Savannah GA, alright. He was never akward around women, always seemed to know what to do or say; and was able to pretty get them to do what he wanted.

    He was a self-employed home contractor, which meant that he was in people’s homes quite a bit. Women’s homes. I used to work w/him on the weekends when I wasn’t in school growing up. Ladies used to make him dinner. What was that all about.

    Of course, my mom didn’t like that too much, LOL. But what could she really say, afterall, he pulled her on the humbug-saw her in those tight-fitting old school white nurse’s uniforms while cruising down Broad St one early Spring day in 1969…and my mom was the bomb in her day. 5’6″, light skinned, T&A for days. My pop damn near crashed his white Coup de Ville, LOL. He pulled over, kicked vintage game, and a month later, they were Man and Wife. He worked fast.

    LOL. I’ll never forget the day I brought home “Jane”. I’ve mentioned her before, the half Black/half Filipina? 5’8″, about 150lb, stacked, light-skinned cute freckles around her nose, long curly red hair to her booty, which was quite ample. My mom had that look on her face “what’s this huzzy doing in my house?”, while my dad was effusive-“SO NICE to meet ya!”, all the while having the look in his eye, “that’s my boy!”.

    LOL!!! Man, I miss my dad.

    So, Dave, do you and your dad really talk? Just curious. And this is an open question for all the men of this thread.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  270. 269 Mu’Min

    I forget the one lady who tried to upstage him, something along the lines of, Churchill, if you were my husband I’d make you a posioned drink, to which Churchill replied, w/o missing a beat, madam, if you were my wife, I’d drink it.

    Lady Astor! Another time she said, “Mr. Churchill, you are very drunk,” and he replied, “Well you, madam, are ugly, and I shall be sober in the morning.”

    Ha!

    Like


  271. Elizabeth,
    Lady Astor…thank you! I’ll have to look her up as well, you’ve give me quite a homework assignment for this weekend.;)

    Question to you and Doug: I think its fair to say that Machiavelli was something of a tactitian, especially in his book The Prince; who are some other tactitians you think were important in the past 500 years?

    Thanks

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  272. on October 3, 2008 at 2:31 pm Comment_Moderation

    ****
    I don’t agree with him that the best leaders are women, but I do agree with him that women can make very great leaders. The key is that they have to be balanced, but that’s true of male leaders as well. A leader needs to be able to recognize when a risk is acceptable and when it’s not.
    ****
    This is especially true in English and American culture, which has, to a great extent, completely abandoned a sense of measure, and balance, and proportion. This lack of proportion is everywhere once you start looking for it.

    People take on massive debts for college or houses with little apparent concern. Not to mention the Federal Government debt.

    The salaries and golden parachutes of the CEO’s and others are now totally and completely out of line with any normal white-collar worker. More so than any other time in history.

    People overeat and often damage their health badly.

    Our way of categorizing would appall the Greeks. “Alpha/Beta”, “Winner/Loser”, “Good guy/Bad Guy”. Your either at one end or the other. There doesn’t even seem to exist a “third point” middle ground much less a range. Oh, people will say there is a range, but how many times have you just read “Alpha” and “Beta” on this site?

    Basically, our whole consumer culture is a tribute to immoderation. Now I’m all for stuff, but I want my stuff to last, and things are built to fall apart and be replaced with Newer-Better-Faster endlessly.

    You try to compromise with an immoderate person, and they often mistake reasonableness for weakness and attack. In some cases, it doesn’t seem to matter how many times you bat them down, they keep at it.

    People see change, going off to who knows where, as good, because, as a Presidential Canidate has for his campaign slogan, “Change”. As if “Change” itself, outside of television dramas, was guaranteed to be good.

    Change is even advocated when people see NOTHING good coming from it. This goes into the risk/reward you had later in your post. I think TV has conditioned people to see all bold/insane risks as working out. Which they don’t. I know.

    See the advice many players gave you. One poster said: “Classically women like E. have had torrid affairs (or been largely celibate), but not long and stable loving relationships. ” after saying “I hope not low.” with regards to your sex drive. So… he thinks your sex life would be a disaster, but also thinks you should get started, and hopes you “don’t have a low sex drive”. Presumably, a high sex drive would allow you to have more disastrous flings. ??? These are his words, not mine! ??? I think you shouldn’t have asked an addicted personality if you really needed a fix to get through the day, Elizabeth. What did you expect their answer to be? Surprisingly, it was Yes.

    I could easily go on and on, especially with modern writing having characters that are impossibly out of proportion, but I think this post is quite long enough.

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  273. 274 Mu’Min

    Lady Astor…thank you! I’ll have to look her up as well, you’ve give me quite a homework assignment for this weekend.;)

    Here’s a primer. Weird lady. She reminds me of the Caroline Bingley-type characters in Jane Austen’s novels: someone who’s basically there to irritate everyone who matters.

    275 Comment_Moderation

    I agree with so much in your post that there’s not one section I can really quote, but this particularly struck me:

    Our way of categorizing would appall the Greeks.

    The Greeks believed that people should strive for excellence in three categories: physical, intellectual, and character. Which, as far as I’m concerned, is absolutely right. And yet…so many people today don’t see the wisdom of that. People who will never be great athletes sneer at the idea of physical fitness, even though the point of physical fitness isn’t to win the Olympics, it’s to have the best body that you can have. We live in our bodies; it amazes me how willing people are to abuse them. Then you have the people who understand the importance of physical fitness and intellect, but sneer at the idea of great character. To them, virtue is an empty word. And then you have the anti-intellectuals, whose disdain for knowledge is so appalling it makes me sick.

    We still have a lot to learn from the Greeks. As Larry Gonick said, Western civilization had an overachiever (ancient Greece) for a father. 😀 And yet classical history is hardly even taught in schools anymore. It’s been replaced by…well, whatever it is they teach in schools these days. (Do they really teach anything at all besides political correctness?)

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  274. 274 Mu’Min

    who are some other tactitians you think were important in the past 500 years?

    You mean intellectually, like Machiavelli? People who actually wrote down, “If you want X, this is what you should do, and here’s how to do it”? Or people who were actually out in the field? Also, do you mean tacticians in general? Or tacticians in some particular area, like politics or war?

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  275. Elizabeth,
    Yup, both. You dnt have to search for the yearbook answer here, just tell me what you think. LOL its always good to gain the POV of hobbyist historians such as you and Doug.

    Thanks again for Lady Astor info. I will definitely be looking her up.

    And no, one can’t really argue w/the Greek goal of trying to improve oneself.

    Holla back

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  276. We still have a lot to learn from the Greeks. As Larry Gonick said, Western civilization had an overachiever (ancient Greece) for a father. 😀 And yet classical history is hardly even taught in schools anymore. It’s been replaced by…well, whatever it is they teach in schools these days. (Do they really teach anything at all besides political correctness?)

    Give me excellence, balance and virtue over “progress” in the social and political sphere any day.

    Progress in science and technology is real and important. It’s been important up to a point in the social realm as well. Surely doing away with slavery and serfdom, made compatible with having high elites and leisure by the industrial revolution, was progress. The must of course be said for the elimination of “qualities” of person (different laws and social rules for aristos), the spread of relatively free enterprise competition, and the rise of representative democracies.

    But more and more beyond that, is it progress? Is progressive always better. To what, exactly? Communist society made possible by so thoroughly reforming blank slate genderless people that they became new communist persons? Only they didn’t in Maoist China or Pol Pot’s Cambodia, much less Stalinist Russia, did they?

    Maybe once allowances are made for rapid modern technological progress, the Greeks were onto something after all.

    Like


  277. Me just above was quoted from and meant to be addressed to:

    Elizabeth 276

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  278. 279 dougjnn

    I think part of the problem is that so many people believe change means progress. Progress means something changed for the better. If it’s not better, it’s not progress, it’s just change.

    There’s actually a ridiculous comment on one of the Slate blogs today that goes along with that whole mentality. One reason I don’t have much use for self-appointed “civil rights activists” today is that, in the name of “progress,” they’ve raised the bar to an impossible level. As an illustration of this point, the person at Slate was whining about how Palin is only “tolerant” of gays, not “accepting.” Now, by and large, I think tolerance is a good thing. There’s such a thing as too much tolerance (we should have zero tolerance for terrorist thugs and their supporters), but heck, let people sleep with who they want to sleep with, so long as it’s voluntary for both, and both are old enough to make that decision. (I didn’t say “consenting adults,” because teenagers are sexual beings, and it’s no use to pretend that they’re pre-pubescent children.)

    And I think acceptance is a good thing — but I think it’s a bad thing to demand acceptance, to require it, to force it on people. It’s fine to expect people to be tolerant, to demand that people be tolerant (again, to a certain extent), because we all have to live together, and we’re never going to all be the same. Differences exist, and we just have to get used to that. But I have a huge, huge problem when people demand the approval of other people. We have a right to our preferences. I don’t have to approve of anyone else on the planet, and they don’t have to approve of me. You can’t force emotions on people. Trying to force people to like something, to love something, to approve of it — that’s loathsome. It’s denying people the right to their own individual taste, and if we don’t even have the right to our preferences, then freedom is an illusion.

    And yet somehow, this is considered “progress.” We’ve moved beyond requiring tolerance to requiring acceptance. There’s something just incredibly twisted and wrong about that.

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  279. 273: It was probably Bessie Braddock, not Nancy Astor. Which makes the joke better, because BB was ugly and NA was not. And “Bessie” is a funny warpiggish version of your fair moniker, Elizabeth. So it went something like this:

    Bessie Braddock: Winston, you’re drunk!

    Winston Churchill: Bessie, you’re ugly. And tomorrow, I shall be sober.

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  280. Comment_Moderation#275 is an excellent post. It looks like something Sara would write.

    Like


  281. 281 Elizabeth–

    But I have a huge, huge problem when people demand the approval of other people. We have a right to our preferences.

    Yuup.

    People and even groups should have to earn full acceptance not to mention admiration. It shouldn’t be their birthright just because they exist.

    The traditional struggle of some groups which might initially be lagging or at least unproven to earn full acceptance within America BY PROVING HOW MUCH THEY CAN ACCOMPLISH that’s universally admired has been a real force in both melding together a nation, and focusing a lot of energies. We have lost some of that. We ought to get it back through more of a show me attitude towards everyone, “victim” group or not.

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  282. Doug,
    The problem w/your proposition is, who will be the one(s) who gets to decide who or which group has “earned” their way into the American mainstream? What is the basis?

    Btw, Elizabeth, excellent points.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  283. 285 Mu’min —

    Nobody and everybody. The sum total of conflicting views, openly expressed. Nothing more and nothing less.

    Like


  284. 278 Mu’Min

    Yup, both. You dnt have to search for the yearbook answer here, just tell me what you think.

    In naval warfare, I’d say Chester Nimitz, Horatio Nelson, and Edward Preble.

    In land warfare, I’d say George Patton, Ulysses Grant, and, much as I hate to say it, Napoleon.

    In politics…well, there are too many to name, especially if you count not only theorists but actual politicians. But I’ll throw a shout-out to my boy Alexander Hamilton, who was a brilliant statesman as well as a brilliant theorist, and who was rarely bested in politics. There was a reason Washington relied on Hamilton more than on any other member of his Cabinet.

    (Charles Talleyrand: “I consider Napoleon, Hamilton, and Fox the three greatest men of our epoch, and if I were forced to decide between the three, I would give without hesitation the first place to Hamilton. He divined Europe.”)

    As far as theorists go…well, I’m not quite sure you can call him a tactician, like Machivelli, but Montesquieu is one of my favorite philosophers.

    Like


  285. Doug, Elizabeth,
    Thanks for the feedback. It is always good to get the views of others. That’s all those planets in Libra in me talkin’, LOL.

    Question: of the current candidates, Obama and McCain, who is the strategist, and who is the tactitian, and why? What light can they shed on the Question of Game?

    Btw, tried to trak down The Queen, haven’t found it yet, but I’m still on the case. Will report back when I’ve completed the assignment.

    Thanks again for the feedback. And Doug, didn’t know you’re a Standford man! Ever had the chance to meet Condi? And, speaking of Eugenics, I’m sure you know of the special role Standford played in that movement.

    Holla back

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  286. Welp, kinda late here, but apparently there’s still discussion going on, so…

    First of all, I’ll mostly retract my criticism (in posts 93, 98, 103) of Roissy’s “girlwind” thesis, because the Wall Street folks wouldn’t have built so short-sightedly if they were in danger of personally going bankrupt if things went wrong. It can be argued that “heads I win, tails everyone loses” bets wouldn’t be possible in a “masculine” society — instead, if your bet goes spectacularly wrong, you’ll have to spend the next ten years working to pay it off! Personal responsibility is a wonderful thing. (That said, there’s the technical problem of preventing such folks from fleeing the country…)

    As for great leaders that don’t do much… YES, YES, A THOUSAND TIMES YES. There’s no good excuse for why today’s history books don’t emphasize this point. The majority of the time, politics is about preventing bad outcomes, not “legislating good ones.” I’ll stay out of the Elizabeth I discussion since, although what I know about her is enough to put her in my personal Top Ten Leaders of All Time list, I’m clearly not as knowledgeable about her as the rest of you (that’s what I get for attending an undergrad institution where game theory qualifies as a “humanities” class…); I’ll just sit back and learn.

    Oh, come to think of it, are there any serious grassroots efforts devoted to creating better history textbooks? There are certainly enough history enthusiasts with enough spare time to make such a thing possible, and the Internet provides all the necessary collaborative tools…

    I’ll nominate Bismarck as one of the “great tacticians of the last 500 years.” History has proven that his strategy simply could not be sustained without someone with his skill at the helm, but wow, he was impressive while he lasted. As for tacticians and strategists of our current presidential election, the evidence so far overwhelmingly points toward McCain being the tactician — fascinating individual moves, like selecting Palin as running mate, but slowly but surely losing ground. (The only way that might change is if McCain has something HUGE up his sleeve that he’s been waiting to unleash. This strikes me as extraordinarily unlikely.)

    Elizabeth, great points on tolerance vs. acceptance, but you already knew that. Nobody should have to accept an idea, no matter how strong the argument in its favor. (Yes, I can read something between the lines here…) I’ll just add that I like federalism for experimenting with different levels of tolerance. And dougjnn, I obviously agree with your “prove how much you can accomplish” point. 🙂

    Finally, Mu’Min, I am very much a rationalist, of the sort that believes the actual mechanics of astrology are no more than a randomization device to provide new perspectives, and practically all the value of astrology derives from the skill of the astrologer in making the most of the fresh perspectives (though I accept the possibility that there are actually a few interesting legitimate birth date-related correlations). But I wanted to say that it’s clear to me that you’re very good at what you do, and very knowledgeable.

    Like


  287. Elizabeth 273-
    OK, just back from checking out the Wiki entry for Nancy Astor. Very, very interesting.

    Born in the heart of the Old Confederacy, and by all accounts, she was keen to let people, particularly Black people, know it. Daddy was in to his neck in Slavery, moved to the UK after her mom’s death, married twice, had 6 kids in all, the last one at the age of 39 or so.

    Her portrait shows an attractive woman.
    It was definitely Lady Astor who had the famous exchange w/Churchill about poisoning his tea if she was his wife, to which he replied that he would drink it if she was his wife. LOL!

    *Slowly shakes head*…Racism is such a funny thing. It can happen to people you may even like. I think that was the point of Archie Bunker in th famed sitcom All in the Family.

    And, its interesting that we would discuss Malcolm X; Astor shares a birthday with him (Malcolm: May 19 1925 10.25PM CST Omaha NE). I’ve looked around on the Web for confirmed timed data and came up empty so far. I’ll check my own 20K-plus celebrity horoscope database and see what I get.

    What an interesting life! Thank you again for the very useful information, Elizabeth. And I missed it earlier, but you noted that you’re a Gemini! One of my favorite types of ladies. Another form of Mu’s Kryptonite.;)

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  288. on October 5, 2008 at 5:18 am Comment_Moderation2

    Elizabeth wrote:
    ****
    The Greeks believed that people should strive for excellence in three categories: physical, intellectual, and character.
    ****
    I noticed when I read your list, and compared it with my, “Alpha/Beta”, “Winner/Loser”, and “Good Guy/Bad Guy” list, that the Greek list was of personal qualities of a person, while my list of modern labels was a list of results. And certainly results are a faster label, and easier to apply. But personal qualities are in large part the causes of these results. Just another example where modern culture has become very superficial.

    ****
    In politics…well, there are too many to name, especially if you count not only theorists but actual politicians. But I’ll throw a shout-out to my boy Alexander Hamilton, who was a brilliant statesman as well as a brilliant theorist, and who was rarely bested in politics. There was a reason Washington relied on Hamilton more than on any other member of his Cabinet.
    ****

    ****
    As for great leaders that don’t do much… YES, YES, A THOUSAND TIMES YES. There’s no good excuse for why today’s history books don’t emphasize this point.
    ****
    Totally agree.

    But it is very hard to “see” the disasters that didn’t happen. An example is that Hamiliton and Washington weren’t conned into helping the French Revolution after it had gone very, very bad. Some of the later actions of the Revolution were so frighteningly horrible that it was probably difficult for Hamiliton and Washington to credit the reports. However, some good caution prevented them from helping the “let’s set the world on fire/genocidal lunatic” crowd just because they waved the flag of “Republic”. Not kidding about the genocidal part:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolt_in_the_Vend%C3%A9e

    If American had helped these guys, then things would have gotten immeasurably worse.

    ****
    It’s fine to expect people to be tolerant, to demand that people be tolerant (again, to a certain extent), because we all have to live together, and we’re never going to all be the same. Differences exist, and we just have to get used to that. But I have a huge, huge problem when people demand the approval of other people.
    ****
    They are actually opposite positions, really. To tolerate someone elses values is to allow them to keep their values. To demand “approval” from someone is to demand that someone change their values to suit you. To demand that they lose their values.

    Chicnoir:
    ****
    Elizabeth, please read the autobiography of Malcolm X when you have time. It is one of my favorite books. It will blow your mind when to read about how Malcolm X was able to transform from a drug addict into a well read and respected man. X was able to converse with Harvard students, and the most down and out from the inner cities of America with ease.
    ****
    Malcom X was the real deal. He didn’t have the best mentors…. in fact the Nation of Islam was perhaps the worst “help” he could have found. But his inherent intelligence and personal strength and character was always visible. When he began extremely ‘deviating’ from the destructive “Nation of Islam” creed, he was killed by them.

    Now, my own comments on history, and what they teach in school today. It positively encourages superficial understanding. People memorize an opinion.. which is never contested, and are taught it is a fact. There is something to be said for actually knowing the facts… or lack of facts, on which that opinion is based. Unfortunately, if most people hear something enough, from enough people, then they assume at least one of the people knows what they are talking about. I’ve heard Smoot-Hawley repeated over and over on this thread, with no one trash-talking it.

    But isn’t the title of this site Where Pretty Lies Perish?

    http://www.bea.gov/bea/dn/nipaweb/TableView.asp?SelectedTable=5&ViewSeries=NO&Java=no&Request3Place=N&3Place=N&FromView=YES&Freq=Year&FirstYear=1929&LastYear=1938&3Place=N&Update=Update&JavaBox=no#Mid
    You have to set the years correctly, and ask only for an annual report, but you can bring up 1929 to 1935 easily enough.

    GDP was 103.6 billion in 1929, and exports were 5.9 billion. Thus, dropping exports TO ZERO would only effect less than 6% of GDP.

    Actual drop in exports was 3.9 billion dollars from 1929 to 1932. Or less than 4% of GDP.

    But a world wide depression would drop the production of exports along with all other production. GDP dropped to 58.7 billion in 1932, a drop of 44% from 1929 to 1932. 2.6 billion of “the big four percent” was actually the result of people being to poor to buy the product, tariff or not. Leaving us with a pathetic 1.3 billion drop possibly caused by Smoot-Hawley. I know, not even worth talking about. But this is the best part.

    The 1.3% effect assumes that every other country would never have imposed tariffs if we had not first. Because American’s are Sinners in this particular story, and the World is the Saved. Every other nation BELIEVED, Brother and Sister Republicans, in Free Trade!

    But the America, it REJECTED the Free Trade, and cast the world into Depression!

    The people on this site are quite intelligent. But many were totally suckered by the nonsense of Smoot-Hawley, weren’t they? Get enough people to repeat something…. it works surprisingly well.

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  289. 290 Mu’Min

    One of my favorite types of ladies.

    Ha ha, I’m sorry. We tend to be quite flighty. 😀

    Racism is such a funny thing. It can happen to people you may even like.

    I once heard a white guy say, totally in earnest, to his black friend that he liked his friend because he wasn’t “like other black people.” Very strange and uncomfortable situation, needless to say. And very surprising, because he (the white guy) wasn’t the kind of person you’d expect to be racist.

    We all have our tendencies to bigotry, of course. It might not be racism, but we all have something.

    Like


  290. excellent poste, complet et bien détaillé, ça me plaît !merci bien

    Like


  291. Well, I have lived in this country for 35 years and have worked hard never put in less than 12 hours average days and now to see all this just breaks my heart for all of us.

    I think, its not only just the economics but the moral fiber of this country that i worry more. We are moving farther away from the American values of this country. Where independence is respected and we all grew up with there are consequenses to your actions.

    But now we are not applying that to our current situations. Banks are on top of that list who in their greed for profit AGAIN are not lending to the market which is so desprately needed, the money we the tax payers gave them by even puting our children in debt.

    Just like if I had a lazy son and he was just collecting unemployment and happy with that and not looking for a job. My giving him $100,000 is not going to solve his problem I need to raise his morals to a higher level as he does not know the value of that money Yet. There will be no consequenses to his actions when I give him that money and he will keep reapting this mastake till he runs out of sources that will bail him out. Enough said.

    Like