Fannie Mae Lessons

Bailing out these big financial firms may be the right move for a short term fix, but it was a mistake in the long term.

Pop quiz: When a person is shielded from the consequences of his failures is he

a. more likely or

b. less likely

to repeat the same mistakes?

Nevermind the current fluctuations of the market. The rot has metastasized. Coercing or otherwise easing the way for these lenders to approve loans to huge swaths of heretofore unqualified buyers was bound to ricochet. Expect to see another crisis of even greater magnitude in the near future.

Lesson not learned.

One of the ugly universal truths of humanity is encapsulated in the stark equation proximity + diversity = war. Increase the variables, increase the carnage.
The weapons of this war are not always guns. Sometimes they are backroom dealings, status saving lies, ideological purges, redistributive taxation Danegeld, and deliberately arcane financial instruments.

Begun, the clone wars have.





Comments


  1. So you’re blaming this on the darkies?

    Like


  2. It’s only a mistake in the long-term if you think the short-term problems WON’T create long-term ones.

    For instance:
    short-term problem: Fannie Mae collapses and for a while and mortgage markets seize up

    Long-term: Banks don’t make 30 year fixed loans anymore because they don’t want to hold possibly risky assets that don’t pay off very fast. Also, because Americans don’t save anymore and we are so reliant on overseas funds, and foreign investors are risk-averse, lots of money goes away from mortgages permanently.

    Short term problem: Unemployment, which means people lose their homes and IPods for a while

    Long term problem: We arrive at a new equilibrium where unemployment is permanently higher. Businesses don’t like taking risks on people, so labor markets move slower and are based more on seniority. Think France, except not quite as bad. Or unemployed workers becomed jaded and permanently detach themselves from the community, or become unemployable because they have been out of the work force for so long.

    Or, basically, the economy always adjusts by itself…but we have no idea how long it is going to take or what new equilibrium we will be at.

    Also:

    1. We’ve known Fannie has been under-capitalized for years. Congress had legitimate reason to intervene and force them to carry more cash. Fannie had amazing lobbying, so no action taken.

    2. The Paulson plan has minimized moral hazard pretty well. If Fannie goes under, stockholders get nothing. If Fannie starts prospering, the government can buy stock cheaply. Plus, Lehman was allowed to fail, showing that the government ain’t saving everyone.

    3. This is a bigger, deeper problem with government. It doesn’t respond to our long-term needs. It rewards our short-term interests and looks after corporations that lobby a lot. Hence, social security and medicare get no funding, but oil companies get large subsidies and sugar tariffs are put in place and we talk about dumping the gas tax. And these problems aren’t really fixable, because they’re endemic to human nature. The only thing you can do is minimize them by creating institutions that are very independent from the rest of government…the Supreme Court and the Federal Reserve are examples of two institutions that are independent and generally do a good job.

    What we need is less direct democracy, and more technocracy.

    Like


  3. I’m a dual econ/finance major who hopes like hell the financial markets get so someone will hire me when I graduate in May, so maybe I’m biased 😉

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  4. no, i’m blaming this on the government and their crusading foot soldiers in the elite communications organs and agitprop industrial complex.

    but your blurt was an interesting glimpse into your subconscious.

    Like


  5. What we need is less direct democracy, and more technocracy.

    That’s the EU business model, and look at how it’s working out for them.

    Like


  6. The problem in the West is that the ruling classes have declared war on their own populations. I don’t mean “war” metaphorically. I mean it quite literally: hate propaganda, dead bodies, ethnic cleansing.

    You can bet thet your the technocrats would be with the bad guys.

    Like


  7. The ‘Sith’ have learned that if they can just control enough … they can always engineer an escape – we’ve let them take us hostage. We’ve been bailing them out for a long time and we won’t be free until we can consistently refuse to save them.

    Like


  8. Begone, foul Cowen ! The power of poon compels thee ! The power of poon compels thee !

    Like


  9. I knew a crack addict back in the day. He would wake up, do anything to get more crack ( yeah, ANYTHING ). Once he scored, he’d get high and pass out. When he woke he had absolutely no recollection of what he did the day before and start all over again.

    I see no difference in behavior between the crack addict and the billionaire investor culture…

    At least the crack addict only sucked dick to get his fix. The self-proclaimed alphas of Wall Street just voluntarily took up the ass, and proclaimed their love for Socialism, in order to get theirs.

    Roissy, is there a alpha/beta lesson to be learned here? Betas pretending to be Alphas but when pressed show their true colors? How did you describe that?

    Like


  10. This is the kind of song real Alphas sing:

    Like


  11. Here’s a very good article about one important aspect of the whole mess:

    http://www.takimag.com/blogs/article/the_diversity_recession/

    Some people might immediately dismiss it because of the reputation of the author. This is a mistake that I used to make, but no longer make after reading the man’s work. He bases his arguments on research, logic, and experience, and deserves to be taken seriously even if you disagree with him.

    Like


  12. about one important aspect of the whole mess

    You know, if black people are such a big problem, why don’t you just get rid of us?

    Like


  13. Subsidizing a behavior produces more of it.

    Not quite as universal as the Law of Gravitation.

    But pretty damn close.

    S

    Like


  14. David:

    We tried.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberia

    You weren’t interested. So you can stay here and suffer with the rest of us.

    S

    Like


  15. DA, on a serious note, Sailor isn’t a racist. He doesn’t go out of his way to prove that on a daily basis, but it just happens that one of his most recent blog posts provides evidence of his fairness (note that he is against Obama in general):

    http://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/09/was-obama-born-in-hawaii.html

    On a ridiculous note, dude, the act isn’t even funny. I’d take even money you’re not even Black. But it has a certain performance art, absurdist thing to it that, with a little work, a lot of bored people in Manhattan might go for a couple of weeks.

    Like


  16. Roissy, I say we organize

    Like


  17. I think demographics have quite a bit to do with this. Baby boomers are nearing retirement age and there aren’t enough Americans (substitutes are just that) to replace them.

    We’ve also run headlong into an energy crisis. It’s a perfect storm. Yes, there will be war. I’ve already had nightmares about it.

    But I do think we’ll pull through eventually.

    There’s hope on the horizon:

    What Sustainability Really Looks Like

    Bidding the Horsemen Adieu

    Forgive me for the self-promotion, but I really care about this stuff. My kids have turned me into an omega.

    🙂

    Like


  18. DA 13,

    On a serious note, Sailor is not a racist. Check out his site, linked to on this site. Scroll down a couple of posts and you’ll see him dismissing unfounded rumors about Obama, though he opposes Obama for president.

    On a lighter note, dude, I’m not buying it. It’s sort of amusing in an absurdist, NYC performance art sense, but it needs work. I’d take even money you’re not even black.

    Like


  19. FYI

    1938 National Mortgage Association of Washington was formed. It was shortly thereafter renamed Federal National Mortgage Association (FNMA) and was a GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY.

    1968 Housing and Urban Development Act put FNMA in to private hands. The act also created GNMA.

    30 years a government agency. 40 years in private hands.

    Roissy, the problem wasn’t just giving loans to people who were totally unqualified. Some of the biggest defaulters are upper middleclass who moved up to bigger homes and took out ARMs, neg ams and loans due in 5 years because they thought they’d flip the house in 3 years and move up again. Or they just really wanted that McMansion and thought they would be making more money later and could refinance in a year or two.

    Many of these middle class people purchased rentals the same way and are now walking away from them left and right.

    Of course these middle class people didn’t really qualify for the jumbo loans they did get. Their mortgage brokers submitted their applications as stated income through automated underwritings and lied through their teeth.

    Once the brokers get their commission they could care less what happened to the institutional investor who bought the warehoused loans that were supposed to be A paper and were instead really subprime. It was greed all the way up and down the food chain that caused this mess.

    But I agree with you: I am against most of the bail outs and am enjoying seeing the arrogant ones getting reamed. Of course it will be the tax payers who eventually get reamed because we will be paying for this for decades.

    So I think the CEO’s and upper management of all of these companies should be sued. I’d love to see all of their assets stripped away, much like what has happened to their companies’ stockholders…

    Like


  20. When a person is shielded from the consequences of his failures is he

    a. more likely to become president of the united states or

    b. less likely to become a congressman

    _____________________________

    As bad as this financial mess actually is, watching experts/bloggers/social commentators isolate blame on segments of the population taking loans is fun. If you have a pet theory on how diversity, greed, regulation, deregulation, middle class, education, computer models, quant theorist or software have ruined a market, now is the time to share it.

    People have a horrible time identifying causation. Symptoms are taken as disease, coincidence taken as providence. We can’t agree on what caused the great depression but everyone knows why our financial institutions are failing/failed.

    On the moral hazard front, I want to see real pounds of flesh exchanged for the government taking bad debt from financial institutions; shareholders wiped out of value or perhaps onerous regulation for those who have their balance sheets wiped clean. Take the debt, bring the pain.

    Like


  21. “You know, if black people are such a big problem, why don’t you just get rid of us?”

    It’s not black people that are the problem, it’s black people plus Mexicans.

    Like


  22. When a person is shielded from the consequences of his failures is he

    a. more likely to become president of the united states or

    b. less likely to become a congressman

    _____________________________

    As bad as this financial mess actually is, watching experts/bloggers/social commentators isolate blame on segments of the population taking loans is telling fun. If you have a pet theory on how diversity, greed, regulation, deregulation, middle class, education, computer models, quant theorist, internet or software have ruined a market, now is the time to share it.

    People have a horrible time identifying causation. Symptoms are taken as disease, coincidence taken as providence. We can’t agree on what caused the great depression but everyone knows why our financial institutions are failing/failed.

    On the moral hazard front, I want to see real pounds of flesh exchanged for the government taking bad debt from financial institutions; shareholders wiped out of value or perhaps onerous regulation for those who have their balance sheets wiped clean. Take the debt, bring the pain.

    Like


  23. On a serious note, Sailor is not a racist.

    The man will always be a racist. His writings certainly reek of somebody who hates black people.

    I’d take even money you’re not even black.

    David Alexander is black.

    Like


  24. “His writings certainly reek of somebody who hates black people.”

    As usual, it’s all about blacks’ feelings. They feel victimized, ergo, they’re victims.

    Go back to Haiti. American whites don’t need immigrant foreigners coming here to accuse them of racism.

    Like


  25. As usual, it’s all about blacks’ feelings. They feel victimized, ergo, they’re victims.

    I would imagine that you would feel upset and spiteful if you read or listened to the materials produced by black nationalists in the United States. Thus, if we’re going to occupy the same nation together, we must avoid inciting hatred of blacks or whites.

    Go back to Haiti.

    I like the sizable majority of black citizens of this great nation were born here. In other words, I’m not going away. Of course, that presumes if you think that certain groups born within this nation are undeserving of citizenship…

    Like


  26. 4 roissy

    It’s funny, because I’m blaming government, too

    *whistles*

    Like


  27. I don’t think that pushing loans into badly qualified over-leveraged yuppies or various minorities (mostly urban Blacks and Hispanics) is the cause of the crisis.

    It fundamentally stems from two things:

    1. Bubble mentality chasing all sorts of things — comic books/companies 90-93, dot-com bubble 94-99, real estate bubble 2003-2006, and so on.

    2. Not enough savings, not enough older Americans to lend to younger Americans, and a global chase for savings pushing money into the US chasing “safe” returns that masked the fundamentals.

    First we had these bubbles, one after another, I probably missed a few. Loans to various minority groups that were not qualified, sub-prime loans, etc. made it worse but the bubble mentality, instead of steady productivity gains caused by steady improvement in infrastructure and labor training caused a lot of the get-rich-quick attitude.

    Sort of like “pump and dump” only with equities AND bonds.

    Sub-prime is only the symptom. There is no get-rich quick scheme. Making money for a national economy requires steady and constant infrastructure maintenance and upgrades, so goods and services can be created and moved around cheaply and efficiently as possible. Along with constantly improved labor skills. This is not sexy, it was neglected with Clinton soon after he took office promising to implement it, and then ignored it. We coasted on Reagan’s improvements, and the PC-productivity as long as we could.

    We don’t have enough: airports, ports, railway lines, refineries, power lines, power plants, sewage plants, sewage lines, new highways, and the like to make goods and services at lower costs than competitors. In addition we’ve imported cheap labor or outsourced to cheap places and ignored training of our own labor to be more competitive with capital improvements.

    It takes forever to get new cranes approved in the Port of LA, whereas Hong Kong or Singapore can do it in a few weeks. The City councils there don’t have to vote.

    We also don’t save enough, with savings being discouraged in a consumer economy, where status displays like Ipods and Apple laptops signal suitability for mating, instead of frugality and the like. We don’t have enough people, in prime saving ages, of say 35-55, made worse by those we do have not saving at the rate they should. Instead America is the world’s consumer rather than saver.

    These are the two major factors finally coming to a head as the non-diverse banks (like WaMu, which made mortgage loans leveraged on the bubble real estate market) and I-Banks which essentially took out big bets on the same action, have come up snake eyes on this particular bubble bursting. But it could have been something else: Commercial real estate as in the late 1980’s, or oil, or what have you.

    Regulatory and political barriers have made steady, real business investment nearly impossible, so it’s no surprise that people are chasing get-rich-quick bubbles.

    You see bubbles where the steady growth, which carries lower risk, is choked off by heavy government demands for payoffs in one form or another. Remember the late 90’s Asian crashes? Or Mexico 93-94? Same thing, just bigger scale.

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  28. DA — after Rev. God Damn America, and the latest NBA multi-millionaire making an ass out of himself during the National Anthem, claiming “he doesn’t do America and that s***, and I’m Black and Obama y’all” … or Whoopi Goldberg, who has more money coming into her bank accounts in a week than I’ll see in my lifetime, asks if she’ll be a slave again …

    Accusations of racism after the clown show at Trinity United, with parishoners Obama and Oprah, just don’t matter.

    No one cares.

    For most Whites, excluding Latte Sipping wusses, Black accusations of racism have the whine of privileged millionaires (Wright apparently had no problem crossing the color line with another White married woman so I guess us awful racist Whites are good enough for THAT) excusing appalling behavior they won’t up to. Or urban poor excusing their own communal bad choices over generations instead of owning up to what’s broken.

    About 80% of whites (the Latte Sipping wusses are smaller than they think — that’s why Starbucks closed 600 stores) just don’t care any more. The words have lost any meaning.

    THAT is Barack Obama’s contribution to race relations. White people wish Black people would drink a nice cold glass of shut the heck up about racism, for about the next century.

    Like


  29. on September 20, 2008 at 8:57 am agree with whiskey

    Accusations of racism after the clown show at Trinity United, with parishoners Obama and Oprah, just don’t matter.

    No one cares.

    most people just try to stay the fuck away from even nice black people like david alexander. if even he is going to revert to the <you’re a racist mantra, honestly, what the fuck is the point of hanging around black people?! seriously, i’d like a black person to actually tell the rest of us why we should take the risk and what the reward will be. i guarantee most of us have done the risk, reward analysis, and our conclusions likely disagree strongly with yours.

    ps. i give mad props to ricky raw, a black guy that can dispassionately assess controversial stuff without going ape- shit or calling people meaningless terms to try in vain shut down a debate!

    Like


  30. This is simply one Sailer theory feeding off another.

    For a long time, he has been making the unsubstantiated claim (repeated by others) that a large amount of immigrants lead to the housing bubble in CA. Of course NM and TX somehow have avoided such a bubble in spite of their high immigrant populations but all to often the Sailer simply sees a correlation and runs with it.

    Like


  31. on September 20, 2008 at 9:33 am agree with whiskey

    just to make this clear, i could gladly hang around a black guy/girl like the rawness, but i’d have to have a good vetting process.

    Like


  32. There’s an even more obvious problem: the housing bubble is global. All countries with healthy (well, used-to-be-healthy) economies had one and many were much worse than the US bubble, regardless of whether they even have significant minorities to lend to. You can’t explain it with politics of any particular country.

    Like


  33. It would be interesting if each wise pontificator here revealed their own debt/asset ratio.

    I predict the next bubble to burst is student loan debts. The debt burden for law, medicine, and humanities degrees creates long pay-back times, or narrows the field of work options. Only 2% of medical students are choosing primary care. Law grads leave school with >$100,000 debt to find work at $40,000/year. Imagine marrying someone with >$100,000 in educational debt. People love to fantasize on their needs for prenups to “protect their assets”. For many prospective singles, it’s a merger of debts. Imagine paying for one’s spouse education retrospectively.

    Like


  34. I predict the next bubble to burst is student loan debts.

    Interesting. It’s hard for me to see why anyone would take on a huge college loan debt, or why his parents wouldn’t steer him away from it.

    My college path: despite having SATs well into the 90th percentiles, I went the pay-as-you-go community college route, a couple of years in the Army, then my B.S. degree from a large, good name state university, again, pay as you go, using GI Bill and part time work. Graduation day: debt = $0.00.

    I’m well into my thirties, and two of my friends still have college loan debts near $100K. One from Law School tuition, the other from living high on student loans as an undergraduate.

    There are surely marginal benefits to goint the Ivy route + debt over my choices, but on the whole, it’s a bit like buying a $800K McMansion wedged between a Jiffy Lube and “wetlands” that was built during the lst gasp of drunk developers’ feeding frenzy of 2006. Bad gambling.

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  35. Do any of you know anything about finance? It doesn’t sound like it. The problem is the origination and sale model of mortgage lending. There is no incentive to monitor or enforce standards. Stick to what you know – shopping, nail polish, your daddy’s BMW, and your poor, rich, drunk mother in the Caribbean.

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  36. PA, I am glad it worked out for you. I essentially went the same route and also had zero student debt.

    Then life hits. My son went to college for Computer Science, and graduated right into the teeth of the dot com bust. He owed about $35K and we had borrowed more to finance his education.

    My daughter went to Penn State. Their out-of-state tuition rate is about 4x what SUNY is, so that added some more debt.

    The youngest went to a SUNY school and is now a paid grad student going tuition free (hard sciences.)

    The son has a job, owns a house, and has repaid over half his loans. Tough few years living at home and saving his money, but he’s doing fine.

    Daughter is a military spouse and doing fine financially.

    The youngest, likewise will be OK.

    The trick is not to overpay for what you get, and many of these college degrees are worth jack. The schools compete by adding amenities out the rear and jack up the price to cover them.

    Somebody will start a no-frills U, and make a killing.

    If you’re going to school to study something that won’t get you a job, better do your homework. I could help, and I got very lucky at consolidating those loans at a very low rate, but the payment is still more than my mortgage.

    I guess my point is: know what you are buying. When guys like me see TV shows about flipping houses, you know it’s over.

    Like


  37. on September 20, 2008 at 2:15 pm Beauty, variety, vitality

    A spokesman for a Washington D.C theatre:

    “When [comedian] Sandra Bernhard warns Sarah Palin not to come into Manhattan lest she get gang-raped by some of Sandra’s big black brothers, she’s being provocative, combative, humorous, and yes, let’s allow, disgusting… [her] play wears its politically VERY correct heart on its sleeve with its indictment of America as “A Man’s World, It’s a White Man’s World, It’s a F–ked Up White Man’s Racist World” and can only be suggested to be racist in its content if one is hell-bent on protecting White Folk for Sandra’s blistering indictment…

    “The fact that the show has a few riffs like this does not — to my mind — make it a “disgusting show.” there’s too much beauty, variety, vitality, and intelligence to label the entire show as “disgusting.” I’ll agree with you that we produced this show because we did find it to be edgy — because we wanted to give right wing conservative Jews a good run for their money by being on the receiving end of some blistering indictments from Sandra. Does it go over the edge sometimes? On the gang-rape joke, yes. Sure. Not much else…”

    http://media.newsbusters.org/stories/sandra-bernhard-palin-would-be-gang-raped-blacks-manhattan.html

    Like


  38. There’s an even more obvious problem: the housing bubble is global. All countries with healthy (well, used-to-be-healthy) economies had one and many were much worse than the US bubble, regardless of whether they even have significant minorities to lend to. You can’t explain it with politics of any particular country.

    Germany did not have a housing bubble. And, as far as politics are concerned, certain flyover states did not have much of a housing bubble because of their very liberal zoning laws.

    Like


  39. @ #37, “The trick is not to overpay for what you get, and many of these college degrees are worth jack”

    Agree. Reasons to get a degree:
    1) to get a professional ticket punched: nursing, law, medicine, accounting, etc.

    2) to satisfy genuine intellectual curiosity. This should be done with discretionary money only.

    Like


  40. What’s with all the talk about race, guys? Whether someone’s a bad candidate for a loan has to do with their financial profile, not the color of their skin. And yeah, there are idiots out there who make nasty comments, but why should David Alexander have to answer for Reverend White? Why should every member of a group be held responsible for the words of one individual? I certainly don’t think I’m responsible for every ignorant, hateful thing a white person says. People deserve to be judged as individuals, regardless of whatever so-called group they hail from.

    40 anony

    Agree. Reasons to get a degree:
    1) to get a professional ticket punched: nursing, law, medicine, accounting, etc.

    2) to satisfy genuine intellectual curiosity. This should be done with discretionary money only.

    I think a big problem with college education is that Reason 1 exists. Professional education isn’t a bad thing, mind you, but the bad thing is that white-collar employers have all decided that college degrees are necessary for…no reason. It’s just a way to thin out job applicants for them. The truth is that most people don’t need a college education to do most jobs. The requirement for a degree is a false requirement, an unnecessary one, but a lot of people are going into substantial debt because of it.

    I suspect that if employers stopped requiring applicants to have college degrees that weren’t really necessary, college enrollment would plunge substantially, colleges would drop a lot of the ridiculous programs they have right now, and colleges would once more become a place for genuine scholars to satisfy their intellectual curiosity.

    The problem is that the college degree has become the new high school diploma, but degrees, unlike diplomas, are not free.

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  41. “What’s with all the talk about race, guys?”

    The talk is because in the old days you had to have 20% down and a job to get a mortgage. But political machinations by minorities and their spokes-thingies made Fannie and Freddie hand them out like candy. Remember all the talk about “red-lining”? That was when banks allegedly wouldn’t lend in certain neighborhoods, and they were browbeaten into doing so.

    Like


  42. on September 20, 2008 at 4:50 pm Days of Broken Arrows

    I see it the opposite way. White folks whine when minorities get welfare payments totaling $20K if they’re lucky.

    Yet these same white people have no problem when Uncle Sam helps them out to the tune of $500K with their McMansions or even more for their misguided investments.

    Once again, I’ll repeat that the idiotic speculating Boomers ruined the housing market for all the GenXers and Millenials who now need to be making $150,000 a year to afford a starter house. It was never easy to afford a house, but the market was not so out of reach for younger people as it is today.

    Like


  43. “I think a big problem with college education is that Reason 1 exists. Professional education isn’t a bad thing, mind you, but the bad thing is that white-collar employers have all decided that college degrees are necessary for…no reason.”

    Do you know why this happened in the United States? Look up Griggs vs Duke Power. From the wikipedia page:

    “African-American applicants, less likely to hold a high school diploma and averaging lower scores on the aptitude tests, were selected at a much lower rate for these positions compared to white candidates.”

    Since you can’t use tests (because they all show that black people score lower than white people and asian people) you have to use something to ensure that you get competent employees. As a result, you have to go to college for 4 years instead of just taking a 1 hour IQ test to show that you’ve got enough brains to do a given job.

    Why does this persist? You answered it:

    “I suspect that if employers stopped requiring applicants to have college degrees that weren’t really necessary, college enrollment would plunge substantially, colleges would drop a lot of the ridiculous programs they have right now, and colleges would once more become a place for genuine scholars to satisfy their intellectual curiosity.”

    Hence the loudest PC screaming comes from the most unnecessary fields. They know where the pacychecks come from.

    Like


  44. This financial bail-out stuff seems pretty far away and out of touch when you’re living in a tent in your backyard and building fires at night for light. It’s nice to hear what’s going on though.

    Like


  45. on September 20, 2008 at 5:21 pm agree with whiskey

    but why should David Alexander have to answer for Reverend White? Why should every member of a group be held responsible for the words of one individual? I certainly don’t think I’m responsible for every ignorant, hateful thing a white person says.

    DA contributes to the hate in a very real way. by not engaging in dialogue on debatable points and just labeling it as racist, he gives the impression that even nice black people are not worth taking the risk to get to know. wright is a known boogey man and has been outed as reverse racist fool. DA seems like a nice guy who will gladly side with black racists to suit his selfish purpose on debatable issues that he knows he can’t otherwise win. which on is worse? it’s a serious question.

    like is said, i can theoretically hang with some black people who won’t go ape- shit over potentially contentious matters, like T, but i’d have a seriously long vetting process.

    Like


  46. 41 Elizabeth

    What’s with all the talk about race, guys?… People deserve to be judged as individuals, regardless of whatever so-called group they hail from.

    This blog comment may be enlightening. There is a fair amount of scientific and other jargon (e.g. NAM = “Non-Asian Minority”) in there since it was originally written in response to others with an interest in genetics, but you can probably decipher it (perhaps with a bit of Googling).

    The problem isn’t that all NAMs are net drains on society. Instead, it is statistical — while there are plenty of people of all races unable or unwilling to contribute much to society, a disproportionate fraction of them are NAMs. And, unfortunately, it is often expensive (in time and effort, if not always directly in money) to gather enough other information about a person to render race useless. Most of the time, the market rewards statistical discrimination, even if the law doesn’t… and ironically, Griggs v. Duke Power makes it rational to discriminate more, not less, against competent NAMs. (Objective tests are perhaps the most efficient way for competent NAMs to make it truly rational for employers, etc. to ignore their race.)

    Nobody has yet been able to implement a national-scale solution to this problem that does justice to competent and motivated NAMs, adequately protects society from wasting too many resources on the incompetent or unmotivated ones, and is transparently fair enough to be politically stable. Erring in the direction of excessive generosity to “deadweight” NAMs may, at first glance, appear to be infinitely morally preferable to erring in the opposite direction; as a prosecutor, I’m sure you’re plenty familiar with “Better a hundred guilty men go free than one innocent man go to jail.” But, while there may be no legal limit to optimistic compassion, there is an existential limit. While we waste trillions accomplishing next to nothing in Iraq and in our own schools and neighborhoods, we lose our ability to say “no” when Russia wants to teach Georgia a lesson, or China tells the Fed what to do. It will no longer matter if we still have the will to “help” these NAMs, if we lose the ability to assert our will.

    For whatever it’s worth, the only good way I see out of this is (i) taking back our culture, in the short term, and (ii) genetic enhancement (or something else actually powerful enough to eliminate the supposedly “unchangeable” racial performance gap), in the longer term.

    Like


  47. proximity + diversity = war

    I have no clue what this means, if anything. It looks like gibberish.

    Like


  48. on September 20, 2008 at 7:07 pm agree with whiskey

    I have no clue what this means, if anything. It looks like gibberish.

    it means that NAM’s (basically blacks and latinos) are not, on average, good for functioning societies in the anglosphere. there are always exceptions, but so what if there are?

    behold, child:

    Putnam’s findings reject both theories. In more diverse communities, he says, there were neither great bonds formed across group lines nor heightened ethnic tensions, but a general civic malaise. And in perhaps the most surprising result of all, levels of trust were not only lower between groups in more diverse settings, but even among members of the same group.

    from link:
    http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/the_downside_of_diversity/

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  49. 47 DoJ:

    It will no longer matter if we still have the will to “help” these NAMs, if we lose the ability to assert our will.

    This will be a moot point in the near future, as it appears we will soon lose even the *resources* to help them out, and this whole house of cards shall collapse upon itself.

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  50. It’s hard for me to see why anyone would take on a huge college loan debt, or why his parents wouldn’t steer him away from it.

    From my anecdotal experience, some students use student loans as a credit card with a long-term loan to pay for various luxuries like iPods, computers, vacations, cars, and off-campus food. Other students are so desperate to leave home so they’ll incur heavy debts to pay for dorms. Some students just simply want a private school for personal convenience, and in a few cases, the students and the parents want to avoid the risk of mingling with proles at low-ranking colleges.

    Admittedly, I went into to debt at my first college because I didn’t want to go the local public college despite having a scholarship because it mostly black. I wanted to go to school with white kids.

    BTW, PA what was your major and did you find work in your intended field?

    My daughter went to Penn State.

    This isn’t intended as an insult, but why are so many students so desperate to go to Penn State? It’s a big college in the middle of nowhere with a good D-1 football team as the only attraction. Otherwise, there’s no point to pay out of state tuition to go there, IMHO…

    Somebody will start a no-frills U, and make a killing.

    They’re called commuter colleges. The downside is that such schools lack dorms, are filled with “proles”, blacks, and Hispanics, and they frequently suffer from questionable management and funding issues.

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  51. It all started when women got the right to vote. Since then, the size of government has skyrocketed.

    Although most married women vote for conservatives, women still vote for liberals and big government advocates. It doesn’t help that even many long time Washington Republicans are spending our money like big government fools.

    Term limits are needed badly.

    Since women view government as a protective force, eventually to be replaced by a husband, they give that force more power over our lives. Safety nets, welfare and bullshit laws like VAWA. Voting left wingers into office has been a disaster for personal and financial freedom over the last 100 years.

    Now people are not expected to deal with problems they create. There is no social stigma or blow-back against unwed pregnancy in the inner cities. Children raised in such environments grow up to be criminals or single mothers themselves.

    The government wanted all these poor folks making bad choices to be given a chance to own homes… and then some idiots in these big firms didn’t let investors know that many of these mortgages were junk.

    Government screws up (with help from some companies that either have failed or should fail), now we have government step in to fix it. We are fucked.

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  52. on September 20, 2008 at 7:54 pm agree with whiskey

    This will be a moot point in the near future, as it appears we will soon lose even the *resources* to help them out, and this whole house of cards shall collapse upon itself.

    there are 2 potential lifesavers to this point above:
    1) a lot of other countries have crappy fundamentals, too. eu- low birthrate, welfare state dependent on population demographics, retarded immigration policy, japan and a lot of countries in the pac rim- really embarrassingly low birthrates. this will at least mitigate a lot of the potential fall in the dollar in the long term.
    2) voluntary eugenics allowing disadvantageous genes (like for facial morphology, height, build, iq- and yes, if desired, for skin color, hair texture, eye color and hair color) to be expunged from the human genomes and replaced with more advantageous genes.

    otherwise, i recommend learning mandarin, hindi, cantonese, japanese or some such dialect and getting out of here if the NAM population reaches 50% of the country.

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  53. DA seems like a nice guy who will gladly side with black racists to suit his selfish purpose on debatable issues that he knows he can’t otherwise win.

    I don’t like the black racists either as they’re no better than their white counterparts, and their presence simply sucks up resources that would be better used for other purposes.

    DA contributes to the hate in a very real way.

    As I’ve stated before, my fear is what the public will make of the data as presented by race realists. From my perspective, the problem is that releasing such data will exacerbate race relations even further because others will simply presume that all blacks are of the low average IQ as indicated by the research. This will simply close off reduce the minimal interaction between blacks and whites as no self-respecting white person would associate with somebody who is deemed to be of low IQ.

    In other words, race realism cuts off access to potential new white friends, and quite frankly, I like my white friends.

    That was when banks allegedly wouldn’t lend in certain neighborhoods, and they were browbeaten into doing so.

    Depending on one’s political views, one could argue that the way around red-lining is to simply create a government owned bank that would simply operate and fill the vacuum left by banks that choose not to operate in such areas. I’ll leave the questions of whether such a plan will fail or succeed to the financial and economic experts.

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  54. Hmm, in my discussion I may have failed to provide a clear answer to your question. Here’s another go:

    When you judge everyone as individuals, you will usually get an outcome that appears “racially discriminatory.” A much larger share of blacks and Hispanics have unacceptable financial profiles, for the purposes of qualifying for a mortgage, than whites and Asians. In response to this unpleasant-looking pattern, the government forced institutions to lend to unqualified people, and condemned sad but financially necessary practices such as redlining. This heavy-handed intrusion into the market was justified largely in the name of racial equality.

    Now we have a ~trillion dollar bill to pay for this, and little to show for the effort.

    Judging people as individuals is a practice to be strongly commended. Demanding that the results show no racial skew, on the other hand, is a practice that, if continued, could end America’s superpower status. If it hasn’t already done so.

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  55. Most people, black, white or purple with yellow polka dots, are too stupid to interpret statistics correctly.

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  56. Elizabeth 41 —

    What’s with all the talk about race, guys?

    Where, when and if the dam breaks on the incredibly strongly enforced taboo against honest talk on race, there inevitably is a bunch of ugly stuff that comes spewing out and writing to the surface.

    I don’t think that’s usually what persist with most people. Unless you define the knowledge that there are very significant racial differences on average (and all along the bell curve on various traits, including at the high end tails) as being ipso facto ugly, as everyone on the left currently does almost by definition. What I mean is that most people really do want to figure out better ways for us to ALL get along and know that we have to. Most people really do want everyone to be able to realize as much of their potential in various areas as they can, at least when thinging socially and generally, as opposed to their own head to head competition against someone.

    However if you’re as honest as I’ve come to think you are you know perfectly well that our social discourse is suffused with lies about all kinds of things that matter and affect our social policy in areas like public education all the time. No child left behind is beyond absurd for example — though the effort to educate all including lower performing members of lower performing groups to their own best potential is not.

    Another way of putting it is that the “Yale or fail” belief system of the PC elitest left is absurd. As a member of that elite by upbringing, education and career, and sort of more or less belief for awhile (I was always a skeptic and gadfly however and always saw lots of bs), I have an insiders apostasy.

    What we need is far more vocational training far earlier, and not just for professional athletics.

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  57. 53 David Alexander

    As I’ve stated before, my fear is what the public will make of the data as presented by race realists. From my perspective, the problem is that releasing such data will exacerbate race relations even further because others will simply presume that all blacks are of the low average IQ as indicated by the research. This will simply close off reduce the minimal interaction between blacks and whites as no self-respecting white person would associate with somebody who is deemed to be of low IQ.

    In other words, race realism cuts off access to potential new white friends, and quite frankly, I like my white friends.

    If that is your primary fear, I don’t think you actually have much to worry about. Most of the friends you might no longer be able to have in the face of public acceptance of race realism are people who wouldn’t be worthwhile friends anyway. There are plenty of Americans who honestly care about those given short shrift by the mainstream, and they will still appreciate that you are actually smarter and more interesting than the average citizen. The Internet also helps, of course.

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  58. Minorities did not rack up a trillion dollar bill DoJ.

    There are a lot more bad loans out there then there are minorities.

    Consumers purchased loans they couldn’t afford because they were gambling on the real estate market.

    Mortgage brokers falsified loan app info left and right, encouraged people into inappropriate loans and walked away with their commissions from the lenders.

    The originating lenders didn’t give a rat’s ass if the supposed A paper loan was really subprime because they were simply going to warehouse it with other loans and sell them in bulk to institutional investors.

    The problem is/was there are no negative ramifications for the mortgage brokers and lenders. They get their money and the insitutional investors get fucked.

    But it really looks like within the institutional investors the management knew they were getting fucked, but they were fine with that because on paper they looked like champs and got astronomical bonuses because of it.

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  59. It is however ridiculous to think that the current financial crisis is primarily about race, because of “sub prime loans to blacks and hispanics”.

    First of all the financial crisis is mostly NOT about subprime loans, the financial unraveling only started there, as the weakest card in the house of cards. It’s about housing over-valuation and too much easy credit that fueled that over-valuation.

    Credit is the creation of money, some or a lot of it out of thin air in ways that few understand. It was supplied by Wall Street instruments and mechanisms which far too few people really understood. Very, very few people had a good grasp of the totality of the rapidly transforming credit creation system, as opposed to some little corner of it. Securitization and asset pools with different tranches of risk, ultimately guarantee by bond insurerers who’s track record was in municipal bonds that haven’t defaulted in any volume since the Great Depression, and whose capital bases was pathetic relative to the mortgage pools they backstopped. Oh and the make believe credit ratings based on recent, full bubble bloom, experience. I speak as an investment banker.

    Anyway, bubbles and their bursting is an inevitable part of capitalism, and it’s creative destruction (a la Schumpeter).

    The US has been living beyond it’s means however. Those chickens probably will be coming home to roost to some extent when the smoke clears from this crisis as well. Our saving rate is too low, and our credit, which previously made up the difference, has been taking a huge hit. The world can still not afford to have the credit of the US take the same kind of hit that a lesser country in the world system with a similar savings rate and following similar policies would take — it needs pax Americana for the globalization which is even more imnportant to Asia particualarly E. Asia than the US — but it is and will take a hit nonetheless.

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  60. 53 David Alexander:

    This will simply close off reduce the minimal interaction between blacks and whites as no self-respecting white person would associate with somebody who is deemed to be of low IQ.

    You overstate the significance of this I think. I’m not surprised, as you evidently have a fixation on such matters. Thing is, people of all cliques willingly and eagerly embrace those of lower IQ (relatively speaking). I’m sure that if everyone here does a little soul-searching, they will admit that within their own group of friends, some are a bit sharper than most. But we love ’em anyway for other qualities they possess. Sometimes we love ’em MORE for those other qualities. It’s called being human.

    We are not merely computational machines encased in flesh.

    Now, behavior and interpersonal ethics on the other hand…

    In other words, race realism cuts off access to potential new white friends, and quite frankly, I like my white friends.

    I now see how your desperate social climbing is a factor in your sexual hang-ups. You see white culture as more “civil”, and you fear being perceived as a low-class thug. On the one hand, this is commendable. I absolutely cringe at the pernicious notion within the black community that being intelligent is “acting all white.” So you get kudos for that.

    But it seems you think having swagger and a pair of balls would prevent your acceptance in white culture. What a waste. It’s one thing to improve yourself, but did you really need to model your aspirations on soft, cracker-ass pussies?

    You done thrown the baby out with the bathwater, kid.

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  61. 56 dougjnn:

    What we need is far more vocational training far earlier, and not just for professional athletics.

    I like Half-Sigma’s idea of pushing middle-class values instead.

    (even as I of course violate them routinely. Hee!)

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  62. Tupac Chopra 50

    This will be a moot point in the near future, as it appears we will soon lose even the *resources* to help them out, and this whole house of cards shall collapse upon itself.

    I do trust you realize that this degree of pessimism, which is widely shared at the moment, is a classic indicator of a market bottom. It’s an indicator of a good time, measured in months not weeks or days necessarily, to be putting cash back to work in the stock market. A good highly beaten down but safe for the future bet would e.g. be Google at this point. A lot of other things but I’m not going to do that here. Be sure to diversify though, always.

    Oh and whatever you do, do not buy Euro demoninated assets at this juncture. Yuan / Renmimbi denominated ones are another story.

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  63. Too early for housing in most badly beaten down places though.

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  64. Demanding that the results show no racial skew, on the other hand, is a practice that, if continued, could end America’s superpower status.

    That’s the focus of the big debate between “liberals” and “race-realists”. The former sees a pool of non-whites who lag in various positive categories (or over-represented in negative categories), and they view various vested interests at fault, especially in light of previous discrimination. In contrast, the later believes that the previous discrimination has been weakened and watered down, yet the under-representation and over-representation in various statistics isn’t due to discrimination per se, but due to genetically inherited low IQs (and elevated testosterone) along with some cultural quirks that cause poor decision making and thus, the inability to compete successfully in the modern civilized world.

    The problem with the theory of the second group from the vantage point of the first group is that a lot of “bad” people like to use such research to prove their various beliefs that NAMs are bad and undeserving of the right to live in the United States along with various other things. Some would even say that it’s okay to treat them poorly because they’re not capable and deserving for fair or equitable treatment.

    The real problem of the theory of the second group is that implies that a certain group of people will *always* be failures regardless of what’s done, and for some people, the entire concept of having a society where the successes are not equally distributed bothers them, especially when there’s an easily isolated group that’s not benefiting. In contrast, for *some*, race-realists, this is simply a just something that we’ll simply have to put up with as a society and learn to accept, and others would argue that better targeted programs are a solution, and a few have argued for genetic manipulation which has been debated on the grounds of its feasibility.

    Of course, since I’m low IQ, I lack any real plausible solution to the problem, and the old solution of exporting NAMs back to their respective homelands is a constitutional and philosophical issue that isn’t plausible. Trying to increase white births, especially those in the high IQ brackets, hasn’t really worked because if they’re too limited, they reek of racism or classism, and if too broad end up encouraging births in the low-IQ white and NAM communities. Plus, high IQ whites view large families an financial impediment, low class, and in some cases, an environmental catastrophe. Paying people to leave suffers from similar issues where if it’s restricted to obvious countries, it’s deemed as racist and insulting, but if too broad, the high IQ may return with their accumulated gains back to their home nations. As I stated earlier, it’s hard to balance a solution that isn’t insulting, but has some effect in palliating the issue.

    Of course, there’s always the bizarre solution to pay couples to enter into long-term interracial relationships. Of course, that presumes that the white genes are dominant or that the low-IQ aren’t mixing with other low-IQ…

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  65. “otherwise, i recommend learning mandarin, hindi, cantonese, japanese or some such dialect and getting out of here”

    You usually have good points, but if someone enjoys the individual freedoms that the West provides, living in some oriental country with a hive-minded population is NOT the solution.

    as for india? yes, head to a country where people shit in the streets. Sounds like a plan!

    Seriously though, does anyone care some shut-in macaca doesn’t have any black friends?

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  66. 58 Anonymous

    Minorities did not rack up a trillion dollar bill DoJ.

    There are a lot more bad loans out there then there are minorities.

    Yes. I only said that much of the political force behind the compelled bad lending came from a misguided intention to “help minorities,” not that NAMs were the only recipients of such loans.

    But as long as we continue to formulate policies under the false assumption that our ~50% NAM underclass just needs more money thrown at it, we will have more trillion dollar bills to pay in the future. First we need to assertively change their culture, to provide an environment conducive to their being all they can be today. Then we need to give them access to the genetic enhancement technologies that’ll start being used by the upper class, so that they can ultimately be all that anybody can be.

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  67. on September 20, 2008 at 9:01 pm agree with whiskey

    DA:

    In other words, race realism cuts off access to potential new white friends, and quite frankly, I like my white friends.

    basically, the ends justify the means for you.

    actually, i think that certain ends can justify certain means depending on the circumstances. but, if your goal is to try to shut off debate about debatable points in the free flowing blogosphere, that clearly is not working. race realists will simply cite study after study while people like you and chic noir keep spewing ad hominem attacks or making other baseless charges. all you are doing is causing more non-black people to feel more apprehensive about black people, in general, when even nice black people like you are susceptible to such behavior.

    justify it all you want in your mind. it’s still classless behavior. there are many race realists who can ultimately have an open mind to certain individuals of whatever race, but adopting an ends justifies the means approach to this particular debate is simply going to engender more and more antipathy across the board- among people who wouldn’t have otherwise had it so easily (i realize you have previously also disputed this ultimate assertion, but it’s also true)

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  68. – People deserve to be judged as individuals, regardless of whatever so-called group they hail from.

    That’s a platitude, but as fgar as platitudes go, It’s one I can agree with. Although I am not sure why “so-called.”

    The problem becomes when society does hold everyone to an impartial standard, but results are not even across all “so-called” groups.

    One example: the so-called Police Profiling hysteria. If it’s clear that group A is more likely to break certain kinds of laws than group B, then good police work will invariably result in more A-Group people getting arrested for that kind of crime.

    Tis is where demagogues see an opportunity for career advancement in politics, and point to this discrepancy. And two insideous things happen:

    (1) A-Group people are incited by those Domocrats (er, demagogues) to believe that an injustice is perpetrated against them, and logically, they get pissed off. Even start pogroms. I too would get restless if I felt that my group is being abused by the law.

    (2) To overcome the perception of unequal law enforcment, the police have to either give some A-Groupers’ criminals some slack, or make some spurious arrests of innocent B-Groupers.

    You see where this is going. The solution: A-Groupers must exhort their bretheren to shape the fuck up.

    – People deserve to be judged as individuals, regardless of whatever so-called group they hail from.

    A whole different thought on this platitude, and this is a theme that Lawrence Auster very eloquently states. Which is, that non-discrimination is nice, and is a virtue, but it cannot be the defining value of any civilization. A big part of what makes each culture what it is, is the particularisms of that culture, which are inextricably tied to things like ethnicity, religion, and race. And for those particularisms to remain unaltered, sometimes anti-discrimination must yield to things like tradition, or even chauvinism.

    One example: If I moved to Korea, and married a girl there, wiht her parents’ approval, and learned Korean, and behaved myself, I’ll probably be seen as an asset to my host society.

    But if I invited one million of my Slavic cousins to move in wiht me to Korea, even with high IQs and good behavior, their presence woudl alter Korean society, and in some ways, displace it.

    Now, a normal Korean person likes his country the way it is, and woudl be justified in not seeing me an all those cousins of mine color-blindly, if it came to our in-migration. He’d be better of telling us, no matter how nice and smart we are, that we aren’t wanted there.

    – PA what was your major and did you find work in your intended field

    I don’t want to get too detailed (paranoia) but I’ll say that my Bachelors was not in a math-heavy field. I am, more or less, working in my intended field. More precisely, my intended field was somethign of an unrealistic fantasy, but I’ve gone on to doing something that is more cool.

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  69. I like Half-Sigma’s idea of pushing middle-class values instead.

    A judging from a post on Stuff Educated Black People Like, a sizable number of the black middle class have given up on trying to teach middle class values to their poorer family members. As I’ve noted from my nephew, it’s best to teach such values early on in youth, and the best way to inoculate them from such values to isolate the children from the ghetto or at minimum, from the “bad kids”.

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  70. A-Groupers must exhort their bretheren to shape the fuck up.

    See claims of being called a sellout, or in the reverse case, black cops who beat the shit out of black criminals.

    But if I invited one million of my Slavic cousins to move in wiht me to Korea, even with high IQs and good behavior, their presence woudl alter Korean society, and in some ways, displace it.

    Well, this is where things can become hazy in the particular case of the United States. While nation-states like Korea are mono-ethnic states with only Koreans, the United States was founded with black people and whites of Celtic, Anglo-Saxon, Dutch, and Germanic ancestry, and the nation eventually absorbed lands with Mestizos and other “Hispanic” peoples. By your logic, either this country should have barred Slavic and Southern Europeans from immigrating as they don’t fit match the original ethnic groups, or Africans and Hispanics should be permitted to immigrate since a sizable number of such groups already exist in the United States. Your argument may make sense in existing single-ethnic states, but they’re weak when used against Anglo-Saxon settler colonies like the United States, Canada, and Australia which imported non-Anglo-Saxons into their realms.

    I don’t want to get too detailed (paranoia) but I’ll say that my Bachelors was not in a math-heavy field.

    Interestingly, I’m in this major by default since I really don’t have the skills to do decently in other fields, and I’d probably kill somebody due to clumsiness if I became a nurse which was my alternate plan.

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  71. a sizable number of the black middle class have given up on trying to teach middle class values to their poorer family members.

    I wonder how much influence middle class blacks really have on black proles…

    I would think that black proles were more likely to be influenced by their peers and by black prole celebrities.

    I think holding the black middle class responsible gives the black proles even more incentive to shun responsibility.

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  72. From my understanding, I wouldn’t blame this mess on minorities as a primary cause. The reasons are Greed and Gambling.

    After all, its not like minorities had the power to force their way into banks and demand ARM’s! The Whites held the power to offer this mirage, in order to make quick cash themselves.

    Of course, I will acknowledge that the low income minority or even white who wanted a McMansion is also guilty of greed, because living in a mansion is not a fundamental right of human existence. But they did not have the power to create this mess.

    When I see whites blaming minorities for this mess I am reminded of the constant complaints made by whites *against* blacks – that blacks have no self-responsibility. Even if the whites complaint are accurate, and they likely are in numerous cases, for whites to then complain that minorities are the main reason for the ARM fiasco is like the pot calling the kettle black.

    And if it is true that whites no longer have self-accountability, then they may very well end up approximating the psychology of the blacks, and that would be disappointing.

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  73. Any economists here? What is your take on the issue of Derivatives? How accurate is the following article on that end? It seems fairly well-researched and presented, but I am interested to see if anybody has disagreements etc. To me derivatives sound like the economic equivalent of a Magician creating the illusion of money and profit!

    ========================================

    The world of finance which Roubini calls as transaction-oriented system looks a bizarre, dollar jungle now. A peep into this mind-boggling labyrinth will unnerve even the most diehard among optimists. The world of finance today is controlled by derivatives. What is a derivative? ’Derivatives are financial Weapons of Mass Destruction [WMD]’, ‘now latent’ but ‘are potentially lethal’. This is not socialist Fidel Castro, but, capitalist Warren Buffet speaking recently (on March 10, 2008). Yet, the most among those who count in the world seem unaware of this WMD. ‘Politicians, senior executives, regulators, even portfolio managers have limited knowledge’ about it, says an expert Web on derivatives. Derivative is a financial instrument whose value is not its own, but derived from something else, on some underlying asset or transaction, such as commodities, equities (stocks) bonds, interest rates, exchange rates, stock market indexes, why, even inflation indexes, index of weather!

    The CDOs (collateralised debt obligations), by which the underlying US local subprime loans were palmed off to other continents, was, till the fraud was not out, a reputable credit derivative. So derivative is not only a WMD but also an ICBM, an Inter Continental Ballistic Missile, that hits across continents!

    Also, the virtual derivative economy is gradually decoupling itself from the actual in quality as well as size. Hundreds of exotic derivative products have been innovated and innovations by the best minds are continuing.
    Mind-boggling size

    The population of these beastly financial products has grown to gigantic levels that is beyond the competence of any system, mind, or force to deal with. The sheer collective size of these modern financial beasts is terrifying. According to the Bank of International Settlements [BIS], the aggregate derivative positions of banks grew from $100 trillion in 2002 to — believe it — $516 trillions in 2007, that is over 500 per cent in five years!

    Yet they do not appear in bank or corporate balance sheets. Some of the vital actuals seem pygmies in comparison to these virtuals. The total derivatives are more than ten times the global GDP [$50 trillion]; some seven times the world’s estimated real estate value [$75 trillions]; more than five times the world’s stock values [$100 trillions]; more than 33 times the US GDP [$15 trillions] or the US money supply [$15 trillion]; 172 times the US federal budget [$3 trillion] — it can go on. The size of the virtual economy is indeed petrifying. Worse, it unpredictably targets, yet accurately eliminates, the distant and the unwary as the CDOs did.

    A decade earlier, Long Term Capital Management [LTCM] a hedge fund co-promoted by two Nobel laureates, collapsed. Its loss of $5 billion was peanuts compared to the trillion dollar-plus loss that is forecast now. Yet the LTCM fall nearly snuffed out the global monetary system. The derivative economy was much smaller then. When billions could devastate the world market then, what could trillions not do now? It is so huge now that, no one, not even all governments and central banks in the world put together, can control this huge and growing population of derivatives. This is what Akio Morita, the former Sony Corporation chairman, told the Group-7 leaders as far back as 1993, when the size of the derivative population was far less. With the derivatives growing so malignant, it is not the actual finance which controls its derivative, but, the other way round – the virtual controls the actual. What, if this off-balance-sheet virtual architecture collapses?

    It is so fragile that it can. Martin Wolf warns “the connection between housing bubble and the fragility of the financial system has created huge dangers, for the US and for the rest of the world.” If a collapse starts, it is beyond any known power’s power to stop or repair it. The balance sheet of the whole world is too small for it and the actual will too meet the fate of the virtual.

    Roubini’s caveat regarding transaction-oriented financial system being in crisis and Warren Buffet’s warning about derivatives as financial WMDs, expose how fragile is today’s virtual financial architecture, which is several times the actual.

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  74. Well, this is where things can become hazy in the particular case of the United States.

    In a way, you have a point, but you have to remember that the US cut off just about all immigration fro southern and eastern Europe in 1924.

    America was also a very different country then. Its ruling class was of the people still, unlike now, when it is a de-facto enemy of its own people. Immigrants then were seen as labor-chattle, not vote-fodder for Democrats or job-security for useless marxists at universities, “social services” and NGOs.

    There was no welfare, and schools didn’t teach Poles and Italians that Anglos are evil. In other words, schools (and media) did not incite Poles and Italians to pogroms against Anglos, the way that schools and media today incite non-whites to committing pogroms against whites.

    Anyway, I’ll rein in the rant… numbers matter, and ethnic similarity matters. If Korea truly needed to take in immigrants, they woudl be beter off taking in Vietnamese, than Ukraininas, by the very fact of their physical and cultural similarity. The same way, eastern and southern Europeans were more easily assimilated into the Anglo mainstream.

    In any case, thigs are what they are.

    I’m in this major by default since I really don’t have the skills to do decently in other fields, and I’d probably kill somebody due to clumsiness if I became a nurse which was my alternate plan

    Heh. You may be clumsy, but at least you don’t smoke. I went in for surgery once, and remember the anesthesiologist male nurse breathing cigarette stink at me right before I went under. It wasn’t reassuring at the time. (I say this as a very “smokers-rights” type of ex-smoker)

    I don’t know what your field is, but as long as you avoid debt, I think you’ll probably do well.

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  75. In any case, things are what they are.

    See? That’s my dark, gloomy Slavic fatalism coming through. Now you see that it’s a good thing that America cut us off in 1924. After all, who needs more gloom, or fatalism?

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  76. on September 20, 2008 at 9:52 pm agree with whiskey

    While nation-states like Korea are mono-ethnic states with only Koreans, the United States was founded with black people and whites of Celtic, Anglo-Saxon, Dutch, and Germanic ancestry, and the nation eventually absorbed lands with Mestizos and other “Hispanic” peoples. By your logic, either this country should have barred Slavic and Southern Europeans from immigrating as they don’t fit match the original ethnic groups, or Africans and Hispanics should be permitted to immigrate since a sizable number of such groups already exist in the United States.

    america was about ~90% WASP as recently as the 1960’s. but, a better argument for or against immigration is to allow immigrants in on a points basis, like canada does already, and have it be more of a meritocracy versus the pro-low iq bent it currently takes. of course, this doesn’t take into account the cultural reasons to be for or against immigration, which i concede might be relevant to some.

    The problem with the theory of the second group from the vantage point of the first group is that a lot of “bad” people like to use such research to prove their various beliefs that NAMs are bad and undeserving of the right to live in the United States along with various other things. Some would even say that it’s okay to treat them poorly because they’re not capable and deserving for fair or equitable treatment.

    the alternative is, of course, using various mechanisms (as godless capitalist described in his comments referenced in DoJ’s post 47) to discriminate against higher functioning groups for the benefit of lower functioning groups. you don’t seem to have a problem with this current scenario since it doesn’t adversely affect you. again, the ends justify the means to you.

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  77. 47 & 54 DoJ

    Okay, I see your point, but I don’t think what you’re talking about is the primary cause of the crisis (and I see you agree with me, in a later comment). It’s apparent that lenders got careless in who they lent money to without needing the government to interfere. Where I live is hardly racially diverse. I live in a lily-white state. And the housing/mortgage crisis is as bad here as it is anywhere.

    49 whiskey

    it means that NAM’s (basically blacks and latinos) are not, on average, good for functioning societies in the anglosphere. there are always exceptions, but so what if there are?

    Whether this is true or not, we’re all living here, and we’re going to have to find some way to live together if we don’t want a ruinous civil war.

    54 DoJ

    Judging people as individuals is a practice to be strongly commended. Demanding that the results show no racial skew, on the other hand, is a practice that, if continued, could end America’s superpower status.

    I agree with you here. I hate, I really despise, measuring things based on group performance.

    56 dougjnn

    I absolutely agree with you that political correctness has an appalling effect on our ability to engage in useful discourse. I certainly wouldn’t deny that the data show what they do.

    But I also know that two of my best friends in high school were black, that they were both very bright girls, and that they’ve both gone on to successful careers. Neither is a drain on her society — on the contrary, they’re both making great contributions. And they don’t deserve to be dismissed. And don’t get me wrong, I’m not accusing you of saying they should be dismissed — I’m just saying that I don’t find discussions on race to be very useful, because all black people aren’t the same, anymore than all white people are the same, and I think the only fair, logical, practical thing to do is to judge people based on individual merit.

    On a partly random, partly related note, the problems with public education are innumerable, but I think a big problem is that we insist on treating all students like they have equal ability to achieve academically, when they don’t. For some reason, it’s okay to put the talented athletes on varsity teams and let them shine, but the very bright students are usually kept in the same classroom as the very dim ones, and the teachers have to teach to the lowest common denominator so everyone can “keep up.” And not everyone can keep up, anyway. It’s absurd.

    I was fortunate enough to go to good public schools, but even so, in elementary school and junior high, I still resented the slow pace we were forced to move at. It was much better in high school, where there were honors and AP classes, but I think to this day the three years I spent in junior high were an absolute waste.

    68 PA

    Although I am not sure why “so-called.”

    PA, to me, race is a concept without much value. It’s not something I care about, and when I went back east for college, I was stunned that students at a supposedly diverse, liberal institution segregated themselves by race. I don’t think it’s fair, right or smart to judge an individual by a group — unless it’s a group the individual chose to join, like the Nazis or something.

    As for your comments on culture — I agree with some of your observations; I do not, for example, think a nation can long survive without a common language. And I don’t think someone is a bigot for being concerned about the effects of mass immigration.

    But America isn’t like most countries. As G.K. Chesterton said, we were a nation founded on a creed. And so our culture is broader than mere ethnicity or race, especially since we’ve been racially and ethnically diverse from the outset. I don’t agree with left-wing commentators who think America can remain what she is if we take in absolutely everyone who wants to come here. Quite simply, we don’t have the resources to sustain everyone. On the other hand, I don’t think American culture is so weak that it will die out because not everyone is a WASP. Our nation was designed to be more encompassing than that. It was called the American Experiment because we were trying to see if people could really be bound together by a creed, and not merely by common race, ethnicity, or religion. Given that the different peoples of the world are going to have to learn to live together anyway, considering how very small the world has become, I don’t think it’s that realistic to try to become a “purer” group and turn back the clock. I think we have to learn to live with what we’ve become, not what we wish we could be. And I think part of dealing with what we’ve become is doing our best not to splinter on racial or ethnic lines. That’s a recipe for disaster.

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  78. while i don’t agree with the pc platitudes of a da or chic noir, i don’t really agree with the other side of the coin touted by “race realists” either. white people created the “negro problem” for themselves, plain and simple through short term thinking, dating back to slave times. seriously, at one point you’re importing another race wholesale because it short-term wildly profitable while simultaneously denying them rights and education to keep them subservient without thinking of what you’re going to do with them long term? Or fast forward a couple of hundred years and now you’re subsidizing the bad pathologies of black people, many of which can be directly traced back to slave times and the many decades of post-slavery discriminatory policies, effectively rewarding their bad behavior? All the while validating black rage through liberal policies of constant apologies, concessions and pc-doublespeak? How else do you expect blacks to act?

    If banks are rushing to give loans to unqualified blacks and hispanics with subpar credit and those people default, why blame them? They are people with bad credit, THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DEFAULT ON LOANS. That’s why we screen for credit in the first place. we need to blame the people who were so filled with short-term greed that they lended en masse to unqualified people in the first place. In fact, for once black activists were right about something when they decried “predatory lending.” They could see the writing on the wall. But their mistake is that they fell into the whole “racism” and class warfare rationales, which turned off a lot of people. I don’t think “predatory lending” was based on racism, just rich people being greedy with no long-term thinking combined with people with poor credit doing what people with poor credit are supposed to do:making bad financial decisions.

    Let’s put it this way, if my friend is known to be bad in paying back money, he is honest with me about being bad about it, and I keep giving him money anyway hand over fist, don’t I have some accountability? These banks had open access to these people’s credit scores and they’re supposed to be the experts. No trickery involved, just greed and bad long term thinking. The unqualified, poor people were greedy for all that free money that was being tossed around with no thought of how they’d pay in the long run. The banks were greedy for all that interest on overvalued real estate they could get with no thought of how it would get repaid, just the expectation of being able to repossess the houses and do it all again. The difference is, who is more blameworthy for making a bad financial decision, the person with moderate education and employment and a proven track record of faulty credit that takes the money thrown at him or the educated financial expert that is supposed to be the responsible expert that throws the money at him?

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  79. Anecdote Zone

    Two years ago, my parents sold their 80 year old house for roughly $400K in a working-class section of a safe middle class black neighbourhood in Southeastern Queens. The buyers were a fellow Haitian family who put $5000 and paid roughly $25K in closing costs, and allegedly, that was with borrowed money. They also included a grandmother as a cosigner. This was also done even with a discount on the price as we were getting desperate to flee.

    In contrast, my parents purchased a 50 year old home in a white neighbourhood in Nassau County for $450K, and put roughly 2/3rds down with a prime rate mortgage.

    I’ll let the reader draw their own conclusions with the information that I have presented…

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  80. Elizabeth —

    but the very bright students are usually kept in the same classroom as the very dim ones, and the teachers have to teach to the lowest common denominator so everyone can “keep up.” And not everyone can keep up, anyway. It’s absurd.

    Yes I absolutely agree.

    But the primary reason that persists, or that there isn’t a campaign led by elites to correct that, is the fixation on equalizing racial results. That takes precedence, and raising up poorer white brainiacs sits in the back of the social priority bus — unlike previously. E.g.my father was born in the Texas panhandle, but got a full scholarship to Harvard. He was more than a little bright and his family was really ruined in the depression and hadn’t come back yet. That would be a lot less likely to happen today.

    The way it actually works in the real world is that a fairly high percentage of the brightest white kids come from upper middle class families. They either send their kids to private schools or more usually, make sure they move to suburbs that have “good or great” school districts — where upper middle class white kids predominate or anyway form a critical mass. BTW by now everyone knows that asian kids are just fine too, so no one tries to move away from them per se.

    The really bright white kids that are screwed are the ones that happen to be born into middle or lower middle (or lower) white families, particularly if the parents or the mother doesn’t have the friends network and knowledge to finagle the system enough to somehow get her kids to an urban magnet school, etc. (There has been meritocratic sorting for some time though so that most lower middle class white kids aren’t so bright, but there are exceptions.) Note that immigrant families in the same economic circumstances have a lot of advantages in terms of likelihood of having this sort of network and knowledge among their friends, or they do if they’re a member of a high achieving ethnicity, such as Chinese or Koreans, but not if they’re Mexican.

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  81. DA 179–

    I would conclude that the house your parents sold is now in foreclosure or in workout status, and soon will be in foreclosure.

    Does your family know what’s happened with their old house and who they sold it to?

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  82. – to me, race is a concept without much value. It’s not something I care about,

    You may not care about race, but race cares about you.

    – and when I went back east for college, I was stunned that students at a supposedly diverse, liberal institution segregated themselves by race.

    The Communists were baffled that people work harder when they keep their own money. Human nature is wierd, isn’t it?

    – I don’t think it’s fair, right or smart to judge an individual by a group …

    Would you walk through the slums at night?

    … unless it’s a group the individual chose to join, like the Nazis or something.

    My high regard for your intelligence took a slip here. Nazis were a political party, active from 1933 through 1945, at which point they were annihilated. Utterly. Their children and grandchildren are all neo-Communists. Today, the movement, such that it even exists, is composed of the most marginalized and despised people on planet Earth. So why are you bringing them up?

    – But America isn’t like most countries. As G.K. Chesterton said, we were a nation founded on a creed.

    If being an American means that you subscribe to some creed, should dissidents from that creed have their passports revoked?

    Man is more than abstractions, and society is more than its creeds. One of th emost basic human needs is to have a home and a community. It’s hard to feel like you have one when you see foreigners around.

    And every culture has its creeds and myths, but they are only a part of what a nation is. Just like the mind is a part of being human. The body counts too.

    [Raw’s comments]

    They deserve more than a quick response but I’m about to get off the computer. I’ll just mention that the slavers who brought Africans to the American continent — a tiny class of commercial elite — are European peoples’ achilles heel. Our elite is addicted to cheap labor like it’s crack. Always was, still is, and probably (sigh) always will be.

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  83. on September 20, 2008 at 11:46 pm agree with whiskey

    while i don’t agree with the pc platitudes of a da or chic noir, i don’t really agree with the other side of the coin touted by “race realists” either. white people created the “negro problem” for themselves, plain and simple through short term thinking, dating back to slave times.

    i agree with some of what you’re saying. however, slavery has been around all over the world before it ever came to america. almost every single culture on the planet has practiced it. so what makes american slavery any different on that level. subjugation for example on a mass scale was already present in the aztec and incan civilizations. it was one reason many of the neighboring amerindian tribes helped the spaniards topple the aztecs. barbarity had been synonymous with humanity well before american slavery.

    secondly, if you ignore race realist research in genetics, you would think that black kids from families earning $300,000 would score better on the SAT than white kids from families in poverty. this is not what we see and the best explanation is a genetic one, as unpalatable as it is to hear.

    hbd is real and should be taken into account when making policy decisions. white people didn’t invent the genetic realities of hbd, and try as you want, you can’t ignore that unless you’re a blank slatist about this stuff.

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  84. Here you just take a test at 12 and then the dumb, the normal and the smart kids go to separate high schools, regardless of race and class.

    Primary school depends on the neighbourhood you live in, but you are free to send your child to another school if there is place. Uneducated people tend not to care much about education and thus do not seek out a good school.

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  85. Of course, since I’m low IQ,

    This is getting tiresome. You have major emotional hang ups but there is nothing wrong with your intellect. My guess is that your verbal IQ is somewhere between 1.5 and 2.5 standard deviations above the developed world mean. Your prose is coherent and well-structured. Your punctuation is flawless.

    What specifically (other than your general self-pity) gives you the idea that your intelligence is low? Is your non-verbal IQ much lower than your verbal IQ?

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  86. #73 non-white, I’m an economist by training while I don’t have time to elaborate in great detail, there is a lot to be concerned about. Many in the industry have feared what is known in our circles as ‘the great unwind.’ In a nutshell, its a combination of derivatives and leverage which creates a race to the bottom. This week’s events and the weeks before it are sure to be rich for economic research because so much was driven not only by bad assets on bank balance sheets (MBS) but outright fear (Money Market accounts). You can thank a couple of people. Myron Scholes – who almost brought down the financial system in ’98 when he was a part of LTCM – the co-developer of the Black-Scholes equation which spawned the development of derivatives in the 1970s and Harry Markowitz. It was Markowitz’s portfolio theory in the 50s which first showed that a portfolio of assets exhibits less risk than any individual asset. When you combine the two, its easy to fall prey to the idea that you are exposed to less risk than in reality. You think you’re selling off risk with a derivative but you don’t know if someone else’s cash flows are tied to it which might impact you.

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  87. Roissy: “Bailing out these big financial firms may be the right move for a short term fix, but it was a mistake in the long term.”

    Bailouts are inevitable in a sense that, in a time of high uncertainty, the pot of money used for the bailouts today could be wiped out anyway if saved unused. In other words, to bail out or not is a response to a perceived meaningful threat to survival. The avoidance of moral hazard is a form of “game” that one could only afford to play when the survival risk is not present.
    _________________

    Donjnn “whatever you do, do not buy Euro demoninated assets at this juncture. Yuan / Renmimbi denominated ones are another story.”

    You might have over estimated yuan, and China in general. The problem of yuan is similar to the problem of the Chinese system — when it breaks, the change would not be continuous from the current point. The impact of a financial unraveling in China could easily be uglier than what is experienced in the U.S. today. It is a matter of time and luck.

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  88. They deserve more than a quick response but I’m about to get off the computer. I’ll just mention that the slavers who brought Africans to the American continent — a tiny class of commercial elite — are European peoples’ achilles heel. Our elite is addicted to cheap labor like it’s crack. Always was, still is, and probably (sigh) always will be.

    It’s the quick buck mindset in general, and it’s not just slavers. How were tenements created? White people in search of a quick buck built shitholes like the NYC 5 Points neighborhood on toxic landfill soil built tenements, which were basically buildings and rooms endlessly subdivided to cram a maximum amount of poor immigrant families into ridiculously small spaces, not thinking of how creating such living condition in your own city could come back and bite you in the ass (they discovered later on when the draft riots occurred and this underclass started violently overrunning the upper-crust neighborhoods). The US allowed this insane amount of immigration for the reason of “cheap labor.” Then we get complaints of the “Irish problem.” Meanwhile greedy populist politicians encouraged this state of affairs because it was an easy way to get cheap votes, if you research the relationship between Irish immigrants and Tammany Hall patronage.

    Fast forward and Americans too lazy to mow their lawns or too cheap to pay minimum wage are repeating the process with Mexican immigrants, while politicians are allowing them to come in as well for their own reasons. Plus Democratic politicians encourage this state of affairs in hopes of getting cheap, easy votes from these hispanics once they can vote. So basically, over a hundred years later WHITE PEOPLE HAVE LEARNED NOTHING. In addition, now there is a huge white progressive liberal population to throw in the mix who are encouraging the problem through bleeding heart policies. We can blame the Irish back then or the Mexicans today for draining resources, for taxing the economy, for living in slums, but if one wants to be a real race realist, you have to acknowledge the role greedy white people play in exacerbating a permanent underclass. Overcrowded tenements that came about from gready real estate developers. Too-fast influx of uneducated, poor immigrants (or in the case of black people, slaves) from poor countries that came about from white people’s short-term thinking when it came to cheap labor and easy future votes. Subsidizing ghetto pathologies through a welfare system that rewards bad behaviors and poor family planning and ensures these pathologies continue across generations. Well guess what, the welfare system was the idea of bleeding-heart whites.

    That’s the problem, no one wants to REALLY be a race realist and blame everyone. Guilty white liberals and angry minorities want to blame whites and exonerate minorites of any accountability. White traditionalists and many black conservatives focus on blaming minorites and downplaying the role whites played in creating their own race relation miseries. Both sides are wrong and truth is there is plenty of blame to go around.

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  89. secondly, if you ignore race realist research in genetics, you would think that black kids from families earning $300,000 would score better on the SAT than white kids from families in poverty. this is not what we see and the best explanation is a genetic one, as unpalatable as it is to hear.

    I’m doing a blog post about race and iq later this week. I don’t want to go into detail here, but I think the whole debate is incredibly overrated and doesn’t really prove much, even if it is true that blacks on average have lower IQs. I have no idea why so many “race realists” put so much stock on this argument. True or not, it really does not have much practical use in my eyes.

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  90. on September 21, 2008 at 12:34 am agree with whiskey

    T, i agree with much of post 88, but you still are neglecting the genetics component of all this. for example, the chinese diaspora has never failed, even in the face of overt discrimination. i could say the same about ashkenazi jews or brahmin indians. you can’t seriously tell me that jews and chinese haven’t experienced severe discrimination. in fact, it’s debatable who has experienced more subjugation, ashkenazi jews or blacks. meanwhile, the black- white iq gap has largely persisted across different nations and different socioeconomic levels. your analysis is puerile without commenting on this issue.

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  91. on September 21, 2008 at 12:35 am agree with whiskey

    sorry, T, i commented 5 minutes after you posted.

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  92. 82 PA

    Would you walk through the slums at night?

    Er, not only would I — I have. Several times. Granted, it was with a badge and weapons….

    So why are you bringing them up?

    Because they were a good illustration of my point. The Nazis were a loathsome group that people chose to join, and it was fair to judge them based on their willingness to join the group. And I cited the Nazis in particular because they were the first loathsome group that popped to mind as an example — Clio’s comments about Diana Mitford reminded me that I’d been meaning to read a biography of the Mitford sisters for some time, and that’s what I’ve been doing today. Unity Mitford was a huge supporter of Hitler, and Diana Mitford was a fascist, so I have Nazis on the brain right now. I wasn’t talking about the freaks today who call themselves Nazis (mind you, I’m more than willing to judge them, too), I was talking about the actual Nazi party.

    If being an American means that you subscribe to some creed, should dissidents from that creed have their passports revoked?

    No, because that would be contrary to the creed, which is tolerant of dissent.

    One of the most basic human needs is to have a home and a community. It’s hard to feel like you have one when you see foreigners around.

    Who exactly are you talking about here? My impression was that the discussion was about race. I already said I understand people’s concerns about mass immigration. But most black Americans, for example, are native-born, not immigrants. It’s their country as much as ours.

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  93. 77 Elizabeth

    It’s apparent that lenders got careless in who they lent money to without needing the government to interfere. Where I live is hardly racially diverse. I live in a lily-white state. And the housing/mortgage crisis is as bad here as it is anywhere.

    The government was absolutely key to starting the problem — lenders who weren’t careless with loans to NAMs were put under pressure to change their practices, for the offense of “not having a commitment to affordable housing.” Of course, the bubble took on a life of its own, as bubbles are wont to do. After all, it didn’t pay to have high lending standards when everyone else had low ones, since you would likely have been fired for poor performance or bigotry before you could be proven right. And it didn’t help that a lot of bankers really didn’t understand that, if you put a thousand bad loans together, the collection really isn’t any safer than the individual parts. They were blinded by the wrong sort of bell curve, the illusion that only X +/- Y loans could default, anything outside the range would be “mathematically impossible.” This is why Wall Street investment banks, rather than just careless lenders, have been imploding.

    But governmental pressure on institutions to be overly optimistic about NAMs is one of very few things truly at the root of the problem. It’s why almost everyone was using the same wrong value of X in the first place… most people who put forward a cogent argument that the number really should have been 2X or even 3X put themselves at risk of being fired for thoughtcrime.

    I hate, I really despise, measuring things based on group performance.

    The problem is that there are easily visible differences in group performance, politics demands that something be done about them, but it is politically incorrect to talk about dealing with the root causes in a way that might actually make the best out of the situation.

    (Consider the matter of successful blacks being seen, by other blacks, as “selling out.” In a just society, this destructive pattern couldn’t persist because almost all the lower-class blacks who refused to change their attitude would starve or go to prison. We need to allow such sick subcultures to naturally die off, rather than feed them until they’re in danger of bringing us all down. And we should rescue as many individuals as we can in the process.

    It’s really quite obvious that we should do this. But the great and the good would call it “cultural imperialism” at best, and shout to the high heavens that such a thing is an unpardonable sin.

    Never mind that the residents of Hong Kong and Singapore, among other places, aren’t so convinced that imperialism was that awful. Maybe it was even the best thing that happened to them.)

    I prefer to never worry about race. It is government policy, insisting that some disparate racial outcomes MUST mean discrimination and MUST be remedied, that forces me to address race even though all I want is to preserve my freedom to behave in a meritocratic manner.

    As G.K. Chesterton said, we were a nation founded on a creed.

    On top of everything else, you’re even a non-Christian who likes Chesterton?

    I surrender. If you don’t find someone else within the next two years, I’m moving to Idaho to try my luck out, dammit. Meanwhile, write to me already. 🙂

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  94. After all, its not like minorities had the power to force their way into banks and demand ARM’s! The Whites held the power to offer this mirage, in order to make quick cash themselves.

    A point of order, Mr. Chairman:

    In a very real way they absolutely did have this power. At least, collectively speaking they did.

    See the comments in the above-referenced “Diversity Recession” article about the Community Reinvestment Act.

    M

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  95. If you are really interested in learning how race works “in the wild” look to the prisons, where racial segregation is rigorously and violently enforced by the inmates.

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  96. america was about ~90% WASP as recently as the 1960’s.

    You must have meant 90% white. Surely, the USA did not receive millions Eastern European immigrants only after the 1960’s. I thought the massive influx of non-WASP (except for the Catholic Irish) Europeans occurred between the few couple of decades of the 19th century and 1924.

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  97. slavery has been around all over the world before it ever came to america. almost every single culture on the planet has practiced it. so what makes american slavery any different on that level. subjugation for example on a mass scale was already present in the aztec and incan civilizations. it was one reason many of the neighboring amerindian tribes helped the spaniards topple the aztecs. barbarity had been synonymous with humanity well before american slavery

    Yes, but there are some key differences. Slavery existed in America from 1619-1865. That’s 265 years. Blacks have been free from 1865-2008. That’s 143 years of freedom. Blacks have had almost twice as much time in this country as slaves than as they have as free people. And keep in mind their cultural memory begins with slavery, not with the thousands of years of bloodline in Africa preceding their time in America. For most black Americans, racial, family and cultural history starts with slavery in America. Pre-American family history is lost to them. Now out of those different cultures across the planet that practiced slavery, how many of those cultures that were slaves were slaves for two thirds of their recorded family and cultural history? Now out of the 143 years of freedom, now take into account the strident and open discrimination and racism of the Reconstruction era, where bitter southern whites, demoralized by the state of the South, reconstruction, and “uppity” whites, made blacks their scapegoats (the war was fought on their behalf after all) and made their lives living hell through the Klan, Jim Crow, lynchings and terrorism? That state of affairs persisted until the Civil Rights era in the 1960s. At which point white people went the opposite extreme out of liberal guilt and started undermining the black population through quasi-socialist welfare policies that rewarded single-parenthood and broken families and undermined self-sufficiency.

    It’s disingenuous to just say “every culture had slavery” without comparing the specifics of each culture’s history of slavery. I am not aware of any other culture where the slavery not only forms the very beginning of its recorded racial memory but also comprises 2/3 of its recorded history to boot.

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  98. 78 T. AKA Ricky Raw

    while i don’t agree with the pc platitudes of a da or chic noir, i don’t really agree with the other side of the coin touted by “race realists” either. white people created the “negro problem” for themselves, plain and simple through short term thinking, dating back to slave times.

    Oh, I totally agree with this.

    But the “race realists” are not arguing that most blacks or Hispanics are actively trying to screw everyone else over. They are just arguing that policies that mandate racial equality of results (advocated by a mix of misguided well-meaning people and some deeply evil elites) are screwing us over.

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  99. But the “race realists” are not arguing that most blacks or Hispanics are actively trying to screw everyone else over.

    Maybe, but looking at the Steve Sailer piece where a big deal is made out of pointing out the percentage of blacks and hispanics that took out subprime loans, I’m not sure. I don’t think Sailer is a racist, and I’m actually a fan of his, but I think a class issue is being framed as a race issue.

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  100. 93 DOJ

    We need to allow such sick subcultures to naturally die off, rather than feed them until they’re in danger of bringing us all down.

    Agreed. I’m quite leery of “entitlement” programs in general, because doling out bread and circuses doesn’t do wonders for a nation’s staying power.

    It’s really quite obvious that we should do this. But the great and the good would call it “cultural imperialism” at best, and shout to the high heavens that such a thing is an unpardonable sin.

    For some incomprehensible reason, the great and the good have come down with a severe case of cultural self-loathing. I wish more of our leaders were confident enough in our culture to say, “Yes, this is what works, and if you choose to opt out of that, you’re on your own. And if you actively try to bring it down, we will destroy you.” I had a lot of colleagues who felt guilty about recommending severe sentences. I never did, not when the crime warranted it. Those people made their own beds.

    I prefer to never worry about race. It is government policy, insisting that some disparate racial outcomes MUST mean discrimination and MUST be remedied, that forces me to address race even though all I want is to preserve my freedom to behave in a meritocratic manner.

    Yes, understood. I have to wonder if the fool politicians are going to realize, before it’s too late, that all they’re doing is creating a seething, blistering resentment among an awful lot of people that might well lead to an extremely ugly backlash.

    On top of everything else, you’re even a non-Christian who likes Chesterton?

    Well, I’m not quite a non-Christian. I celebrate Christmas and all, and I’m from a totally WASPy background. (Well, I do have a few Catholics up the family tree, too.) But I don’t go to church, and if I were going to bother giving a title to my beliefs, it would be something like “quasi-Protestant Deist.”

    But yes, I adore Chesterton. 😀

    I surrender. If you don’t find someone else within the next two years, I’m moving to Idaho to try my luck out, dammit. Meanwhile, write to me already.

    Getting there, getting there. 🙂

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  101. T 100:

    Race and class are not independent in the US. Or anywhere else for that matter.

    I look forward to reading your upcoming blog post on race. I do think that race and IQ is a big issue, though class and IQ is far, far bigger, with race and IQ obscuring the really really big issue. It’s not race that no one talks about in America, it’s class.

    Your take on things is so, well, different, it will be an interesting read, if not necessarily a convincing one. 🙂

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  102. Race and class are not independent in the US. Or anywhere else for that matter.

    No, but I do think many people make the mistake of confusing correlation with causation.

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  103. Your take on things is so, well, different, it will be an interesting read, if not necessarily a convincing one.

    Quite the backhanded compliment, but I’ll take it.

    Like


  104. PatrickH, Pupu wrote you a message in the comment section of the previous post “She is at it again.”

    Like


  105. DF I appreciate the response. I’m not an economist, but some of what you say sounds to me like instead of simply creating a portfolio this derivative scheme can easily be applied for greed – making a quick buck. Greed and Gambling – I think that is what Wall St. is at heart. Not much different, other than a fancy suit, than the much-maligned black playing craps on the street corner or the chain-smoking white sucking wind at the casino.

    In very simple terms, what are some good solutions for this derivative time-bomb. Will we just have to suffer through a long downward curve?

    To me the ARM crisis and this current Wall St. Meltdown strike me as a mere two lesions, two heart attacks if you will that did not just yet kill the patient. I have a feeling there will be more, obviously many are probably thinking the same.

    ====================================

    87 DF

    #73 non-white, I’m an economist by training while I don’t have time to elaborate in great detail, there is a lot to be concerned about. Many in the industry have feared what is known in our circles as ‘the great unwind.’ In a nutshell, its a combination of derivatives and leverage which creates a race to the bottom. This week’s events and the weeks before it are sure to be rich for economic research because so much was driven not only by bad assets on bank balance sheets (MBS) but outright fear (Money Market accounts). You can thank a couple of people. Myron Scholes – who almost brought down the financial system in ‘98 when he was a part of LTCM – the co-developer of the Black-Scholes equation which spawned the development of derivatives in the 1970s and Harry Markowitz. It was Markowitz’s portfolio theory in the 50s which first showed that a portfolio of assets exhibits less risk than any individual asset. When you combine the two, its easy to fall prey to the idea that you are exposed to less risk than in reality. You think you’re selling off risk with a derivative but you don’t know if someone else’s cash flows are tied to it which might impact you.

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  106. In a land far away, 1 shesaidno wrote: So you’re blaming this on the darkies?

    4 roissy responded:
    no, i’m blaming this on the government and their crusading foot soldiers in the elite communications organs and agitprop industrial complex.
    but your blurt was an interesting glimpse into your subconscious.

    Whew, I am glad that Roissy’s post did not have anything to do with race because the comments would have gotten out of control. What, wait … I guess I did not continue reading since race seems to be the topic his commenters wanted to explore. I like roissy’s writing and know that he links to isteve’s stuff and genetic stuff that makes this older black male quite uncomfortable. This so-called “race realists” community seems to run strong here. Perhaps that is the force that will stop the coming clone war that Roissy warns us about. The Force is just race realism realized against the dark emporer who wants to push out the white jedis.

    I guess that Roissy likes Steve Sailer’s writings (he links to him) and the blogs of other folks who might find me and my offspring, on average, genetically deficient or think that policy directed at minorities are misguided actions that will cripple mainstream(?) society. From the responses above I can tell that some people agree with whatever race-based issues were not written about in Roissy’s post.

    But everyone can write their own truth. My truth,
    paraphrasing the guy we honor by blowing up his blog stats, this racial realism stuff provides an “interesting glimpse into your subconscious” so please keep writing and explaining.

    For me, the complex financial world where dollars search for positive investments and risks are ritually hedged and re-hedged is much more colorful and diverse (pardon the puns) than the world that the “race realists” view through their prism. Turning trash into triple-A rated securities is going on in a lot of areas and not just mortgage-backed securities. There are some posts that acknowledge this complexity but I found the race-based stuff off the mark. Since I know it is out there, can someone please link to the argument that the crippled financial markets stem from (or perhaps are caused by) the minorities and immigrants. Maybe isteve has one …. I’ll go check.

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  107. I just read that while GM is worth maybe $15 billion there is over $1 trillion CDO (a type of derivative I think) on whether GM will either survive or fail.

    My jaw dropped. I had no idea the madness these Wall St. people were up too in the past decade. And I wonder what their IQ scores are!

    They used their IQ to slowly wrap themselves up into a pretzel with their complex and quick money-making schemes, and the air has almost been completely sucked out.

    The low IQ people lost their houses and credit. The high IQ people are actively ruining their entire economy. I have to be a realist about this.

    Like


  108. 107 TJ

    For me, the complex financial world where dollars search for positive investments and risks are ritually hedged and re-hedged is much more colorful and diverse (pardon the puns) than the world that the “race realists” view through their prism. Turning trash into triple-A rated securities is going on in a lot of areas and not just mortgage-backed securities. There are some posts that acknowledge this complexity but I found the race-based stuff off the mark. Since I know it is out there, can someone please link to the argument that the crippled financial markets stem from (or perhaps are caused by) the minorities and immigrants.

    You are correct that if the subprime mortgage crisis didn’t happen, some other sufficiently large shock could have toppled Wall Street anyway. Long-Term Capital Management assumed in 1998 that “nuclear powers can’t default;” well, turns out that nuclear powers can do pretty much whatever the hell they want to, and in the ensuing chaos the Fed had to compel a whole bunch of banks to bail LTCM out. Certainly, if the US ever defaulted on a Treasury bond payment, that would cause financial armageddon, and it would have essentially nothing to do with minorities or immigrants. Okay, that’s not a good example because it would be a disaster even without derivatives. But yes, there are a fair number of smaller possible shocks that, previously, Wall Street could have survived, but nowadays it no longer can.

    Nevertheless, the shock that actually happened, the subprime mortgage crisis, can be directly blamed on racial equality-of-result driven government “affordable housing” policy. As I mentioned in an earlier post, redlining was a sad practice, but the neutered form of it that still existed in 2000 reflected the reality of credit risk. Government forced banks to stop it, along with any other practice that got in the way of lending too much money to minorities. Of course, many in the government thought they were doing good, that they were merely raising lending levels to minorities to the right level for the first time in history. But their approach was horribly wrong (even if their ultimate goal was noble — I definitely want to see minorities actually become far better credit risks, and then stop suffering from lender discrimination, before I die), and now we all have to pay for it.

    I will end this with another note of agreement with you, though. The Wall Street traders involved in the mess should all be driven near bankruptcy before the rest of us have to pay a cent. There needs to be a grave personal danger to making a wrong bet, rather than the “heads I win, tails everyone has to bail me out” status quo which can be considered to be the single biggest cause of the Wall Street disaster.

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  109. We have let some economic institutions get “too big to fail” because we have been agreeing to every would-be merger on Wall Street since Bush the Elder in 1988.

    You know when this shit really started? Way back when we bailed out the peso in the early nineties so Goldman-Sachs, (Robert Rubin and his buddies) made loans to Mexico back when her credit was REALLY bad.

    The lesson learned by Wall Street? As long as you donate heavily to the right politicians and have the right friends and the loans in question are for the politically correct reasons, the FED will bail you out with cheapie loans that inflate the money supply, thus robbing everyone holding a dollar just a little bit.

    What makes me so sick, is that the CEO’s, CFO’s, and boards are not being taken to the carpet and held accoutable (read, class-action lawsuits aimed at taking every dime they have) for wrecking some of these-once-strong companines.

    Some of the Clintonian laws designed to give mortgages to less-than-creditworthy people of all creeds, have made some of these bundled-up-funds not worth spit long term.

    Cleaning up “liar loans” where income is “stated”, but not proven (w-2’s), is a step in the right direction. In the biz, that is called the “drug dealer loan”. They were filthy. We tried to get too many people in overpriced (cheaply built) houses. Our economic foundation isn’t what it ought to be right now, but the James Cramers of the world only care about making more money, and frankly dont want to hear that. We need some spinach and ham for a few years, not steak and caviar.

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  110. 108 Non-white:

    They used their IQ to slowly wrap themselves up into a pretzel with their complex and quick money-making schemes, and the air has almost been completely sucked out.

    Joos.

    Like


  111. on September 21, 2008 at 7:41 am High IQ Wall St. type

    How interesting, everyone turned into an economist overnight.

    Like


  112. on September 21, 2008 at 1:52 pm A Satistfied Emailer

    Update from a previous mailbag: http://roissy.wordpress.com/2008/08/29/reader-mailbag-special-edition/

    I was sender of first email. Friday night I was with different girl, similar age difference, similar question. Finefantastic, I used the bridge partner as well as needing an in at the retirement home, and then reversed it to “What would you want with a guy this young?”. It worked beautifully. Just wanted to give you an update and thanks,

    Love,
    A Satisfied Reader and Emailer

    Like


  113. This crisis is not about Fannie and Freddie. They had their problems, but they are more the victims of the crisis than its creators. “Sub-prime” mortgages are mortgages that aren’t good enough to meet Fannie and Freddie standards, which define prime.

    Conservatives tend to emphasize the Fannie/Freddie bailout over the larger problems in the private sector because they want to distract attention from the catastrophic failure of the entire financial sector and the system-wide greed and carelessness behind it.

    The argument on “loans to black people” causing the thing is even more BS…how many whites were out there in three-quarter-of-a-million dollar McMansions they could afford? The whole “raise minority homeownership” thing was just one little corner of the whole massive propaganda operation used to keep the bubble going.

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  114. DoJ 94 —

    Excellent post. Most of your posts on this thread have been excellent. I agree with almost all you’ve said.

    It’s a lot easier for an E. Asian orignin American to both see these things clearly and to articulate them. I do both sometimes but often am pretty cautious in what I say.

    I particularly like your tone and your objectives. I share them.

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  115. There’s been a lot of talk about how the “taxpayers” will have to underwrite all this greed, and the $700 billion bailout (actually I think they underestimated the amount needed, because Bush doesn’t want to have the phrase “trillion dollar bailout” next to his name in the history books — they’ll just leave the rest to the incoming administration)…

    But the real fight on the Hill next year will be WHICH taxpayers have to pay for it?

    I.e., Corporate America or middle class America?

    If it’s President McCain, look for massive cuts in government spending — not just the fat, but the muscle. He’ll want to decimate lots of good programs, like student loans, LIHEAP, and agencies like the EPA, the FDA, etc.

    In other words, anything to avoid a tax increase on big business.

    If it’s President Obama, he’ll probably propose increasing taxes on big business AND the middle class. In which case he’ll be ceremonially lynched by the corporate media-industrial establishment.

    I wouldn’t wanna be Obama when the corporate lobbies try to ass-rape him for suggesting that corporations should share the pain for this bailout that the corporate sector, and the “greed-is-good” mentality that they’ve peddled for the past 30 years, created.

    And I say that not as someone who’s opposed to free enterprise; I’m a serial entrepreneur myself and wouldn’t think of living life any other way.

    I’m just a rational and fair-minded business person, and yes, I vote 100% liberal Democratic. And anyone who thinks there’s an inherent contradiction there can kiss my a$$.

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  116. DoJ 109–

    I will end this with another note of agreement with you, though. The Wall Street traders involved in the mess should all be driven near bankruptcy before the rest of us have to pay a cent. There needs to be a grave personal danger to making a wrong bet, rather than the “heads I win, tails everyone has to bail me out” status quo which can be considered to be the single biggest cause of the Wall Street disaster.

    Yes but.

    The but is avoiding another Great Depresion.

    Really. I guarantee you that’s what Bernanke and the Treasury worry about.

    Bernanke’s signal academic work was on the causes of the great depression. He concluding it was credit contraction and deflation, exacerbated by government monetary policy, with it’s expansionary fiscal policy under FDR being a pimple on an elephant, more or less, until WWII spending and the huge attendant debt loads kicked in. The shuttering of global trade through rounds of tarriff wars, lead by the US’s passage of Smoot Hawley was also of signal importance.

    So Bernanke is determined to inflate the piss out of our economy if that’s what’s needed to keep growth about negative numbers or any length of time, the dollar be damned. All the while he’ll say he’s doing otherwise and jawbone inflation fighting, since what a good part of inflation is about is the market anticpating yet more government losening and trying to get ahead of it with price increases, so he’s will keep on signaling restraint. Don’t get we wrong, he DOES care about inflation, just a whole lot less than a global deep recession = depression.

    My guess is he’ll and they’ll pull it off.

    Compared to this spanking I bankers just isn’t top priority, but yeah they’ll do it around the edges, and have. Equity wipeouts at Bear Stearns and Lehman for example.

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  117. What makes me so sick, is that the CEO’s, CFO’s, and boards are not being taken to the carpet and held accoutable (read, class-action lawsuits aimed at taking every dime they have) for wrecking some of these-once-strong companines.

    -z

    As bad as things could get, there’s a good chance some heads will roll in coming years.

    Cleaning up “liar loans” where income is “stated”, but not proven (w-2’s), is a step in the right direction. In the biz, that is called the “drug dealer loan”. They were filthy. We tried to get too many people in overpriced (cheaply built) houses.

    Yeah, what’s with the crap they’ve been building for the last few years? I can’t believe what people paid for these junker houses built by guys whose specialty is picking lettuce. These houses are going to start falling apart soon — just wait and see.

    We need some spinach and ham for a few years, not steak and caviar.

    I’m already there, and looking better for it.

    Hey, on the bright side, American girls might stop being such bloated cows if there’s a really serious recession.

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  118. “Hey, on the bright side, American girls might stop being such bloated cows if there’s a really serious recession.”

    McDonalds and Ice Cream are still cheap.

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  119. Non-white, I wouldn’t categorize CDOs as a derivative. CDOs are a structured product backed by collateral of one form or another. Derivatives have no intrinsic value and is a contract in exchange for an asset. However, a Credit Linked Note does combine the two concepts but it is typically backed by “highly rated” collateral. In short, you’re buying into a default swap that is structured much like a CDO with a super senior position, tranches, and a first loss position known as the equity portion.

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  120. I think we are just seeing the effects of govt corruption. Is all.

    Remember the big fuss over Martha Stewart? What the heck did she do to go to jail. Yet she was hounded and jailed I have been cheated out of many thousands of dollars (stocks and mutual funds) by the machinations of politicians and their backers in the world of finance. None of them will go to jail.

    Then, the crooked pols will come to me and demand even more money (in higher taxes.)

    Just came back from a visit to Bermuda. That is a 1st world country. The USA is definitely going in the other direction.

    The next bubble is going to be the bankruptcy of local govt’s to cover the pensions for all those early retirees.

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  121. The next bubble is going to be the bankruptcy of local govt’s to cover the pensions for all those early retirees.

    ==================

    Bingo. Street crime and gang warfare are going to explode across the US, as local governments are forced to cut policing.

    I think the long-term effects of this across-the-board fiscal crisis are going to be a lot broader, deeper, and more long-lasting than anyone is predicting now, and it will hit all of our lives where it counts.

    Lots of people who fancy themselves “economic libertarians” will be changing their tunes, if not their party affiliations, before the dust settles on this one.

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  122. We are the laughing stock of the world because of the devastation we have brought upon ourselves.

    http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-euromood20-2008sep20,0,7535469.story

    Good. I say let America collapse. We deserve it because of our arrogant attitudes and our pissant scum-sucking greed.

    Fuck America. Let it slide down the shit hole of history and Middle Class white America suffer like never before. I hope the children of Middle Class white America (i.e. those who support McCain and Palin) are literal slaves of the Chinese.

    I hope their children and grandchildren are forced to move to China to work in slave labor camps to pay off our national debt!!!

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  123. Yeah bingo – every taxpayer in the U.S. (except the wealthy) will have $15,000 or more added to their long term tax liabilities this week as citizens by the Bush Administrations inactions . It isn’t like they ever cared or anything.

    You are paying it.

    There is no other reality to go to.

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  124. Gentlemen, gentlemen…

    *ahem*…GENTLEMEN!

    Just what in the HELL does any of this discussion have to do with poon?!?!

    Let’s PLEASE do try and keep focused on topics that have serious import and relevance to our lives, shall we? Hmm?

    THANK YOU

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  125. 123 Joe T:

    Bingo. Street crime and gang warfare are going to explode across the US, as local governments are forced to cut policing.

    I think the long-term effects of this across-the-board fiscal crisis are going to be a lot broader, deeper, and more long-lasting than anyone is predicting now, and it will hit all of our lives where it counts.

    BLADE RUNNER TIME, BABY

    Yeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaah BOYEE!

    Lots of people who fancy themselves “economic libertarians” will be changing their tunes, if not their party affiliations, before the dust settles on this one.

    Already done, here.

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  126. Joe T —

    First the article you linked is so much sound and fury, signifying nothing.

    Every time there’s a big downturn here that isn’t YET worse in Europe, the lefties there cream in their snuggies. Espeically the lefty bois.

    Good. I say let America collapse. We deserve it because of our arrogant attitudes and our pissant scum-sucking greed.

    Fuck America. Let it slide down the shit hole of history and Middle Class white America suffer like never before. I hope the children of Middle Class white America (i.e. those who support McCain and Palin) are literal slaves of the Chinese.

    You’re a poster child for white lefty self-hating would be American elites. How’s your “Things White People Like” score, off the charts, or did you cheat it down? Wait, you’d WANT it high. That you’re 100% Dem is hardly a surprise. Beta boi. Is ‘Bama gonna be your Messiah? Will he lead you into Reparations promised land? How about “equal pay for equal work” socialist beauacracy wage controls, leading to nasty work whose only reward is money and which only men will do, getting shafted. Among very many other and socially worse outcomes, along socialist economic distortion lines.

    Pathetic.

    (Meanwhile I turned liquifable stuff to nearly all cash before the end of last year, sold a rental property just barely past the peak last year, and have recently been getting back into the equity markets.)

    How’s your theorizing doing for you?

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  127. for example, the chinese diaspora has never failed….. i could say the same about …..brahmin indians

    really? cuz from the data i’ve seen, 2/3rds of Brahmin Indians in India live off less than $1200 USD a year. According to a Rediff article, 55% of Brahmins live below the INDIAN poverty line.

    Its difficult to quantify success in a country where people shit in the streets with African poverty and an illiteracy level higher than that of any Latin American country, but Brahmins don’t exactly sound like Jews here.

    Like


  128. trying to post this again: http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=2938

    funny comic about the bailout.

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  129. Holy shit, what a rant @124.

    Not that I am averse to ranting. I’m too relaxed to really get into a rant right now, but I’ll try one anyway:

    White people are genocidal bastards. Which makes them no different that black, brown, red, and yellow people. But what makes the modern times interesting, is that the white ruling class has turned its aggression against its own people.

    The history of the West since WW2 is a soft but sustained campaign of genocide waged by the Western elites against their own people. The very same working and the middle class people, whom Joe T is ranting against.

    This campaign has picked up speed of late in western European countries, where an English girl is arrested for complaining that she doesn’t understand her lab partner’s accent. To a lesser extent, this is also going on in North America.

    Immigration, political correctness, “civil rights” beyond color-blindness, hate speech laws, the destruction of Rhodesia, South Africa, and Serbia, they’re all part of the same campaign.

    End of rant, such that it was. But a question does remain: what makes someone who is a white guy hate white middle-class Americans, and wish their and their childrens’ enslavement?

    I have a feeling that the root of that anger is big-time psychological. I think that Joe’s comment about “Debt” is just an excuse to air his anger. I really am curious where it really comes from.

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  130. 132 PA:

    The history of the West since WW2 is a soft but sustained campaign of genocide waged by the Western elites against their own people. The very same working and the middle class people, whom Joe T is ranting against.

    Perhaps the elites found a more cost effective serf in the form of our immigrants.

    I have a feeling that the root of that anger is big-time psychological. I think that Joe’s comment about “Debt” is just an excuse to air his anger. I really am curious where it really comes from.

    I’m guessing the bloated entitlement mentality of your average middle class slave.

    Con men don’t succeed unless the mark is eagerly looking to get something for nothing.

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  131. I’m guessing the bloated entitlement mentality of your average middle class slave.

    As someone who has modest needs and lives within his means, I’m second to none in making fun of idiotic yuppies and yuppie wanna-be’s who were using their houses as ATMs and now are fucked, but my attitude is one of mild contempt and pity, not anger. I certainly don’t want their children enslaved by the Chinese.

    And Joe’s anger sounds like it’s not limited to people with entitlement mentalities (is entitlement mentality limited to middle class whites, by the way?). He sounds like he hates everyone who is white and not a Democratic Party activist, from wall street traders to regular cops and electricians. Whatever it is, it’s pretty personal.

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  132. @ 132

    PA – Good post, I agree wholeheartedly that the source of my rage is my psychological makeup.

    In fact, I’ll go you one better. I’ve always maintained (and rather fiercely when arguing politics with right wingers) the following: “Scratch a person’s political beliefs and their psychology lies underneath. And the psychology is much more interesting than the politics.”

    And I have *always* included myself in that. I’ve never tried to hide it or sidestep it.

    But the same shit that applies to me also applies to the doctrinaire, flag-waving right.

    I’ll leave it to you to psychoanalyze what makes so many Americans jingoistically defend this godforsaken, pig-infested rathole of greed and religious hypocrisy, which deserves to be ground into dust any day now by the Chinese and other, smarter people around the world.

    But I have always stood by my own psychology. I’ll hold myself up against any doctrinaire so-called “conservative” any day of the week. And win the debate…

    I actually agree with you that our governments (and corporate hierarchies) have turned themselves against their own people… but the economic aspect to this came long before the social (i.e. the political correctness you cite), and, in the final analysis, will matter much, much more.

    SO, let America fail. Let it crumble into dust — fast or slow, I don’t really care (although it would probably be better for the world if it were a quick process).

    If the pigs who rule us are going to continue to rule us (and by that, I mean McCain effectively extending the Bush administration for another 4 years at least, with that bespectacled airhead cunt-mom on the horizon to rule all of us peons), so be it.

    If this is what vaunted White America votes for, then Americans deserve everything they will get.

    Let the Great Assraping of America begin!!! I will be cheering it on!!

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  133. On a lighter note, dude, I’m not buying it. It’s sort of amusing in an absurdist, NYC performance art sense, but it needs work. I’d take even money you’re not even black.

    What about me?

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  134. PA 134 —

    The more I read you the more I like you PA.

    As someone who has modest needs and lives within his means, I’m second to none in making fun of idiotic yuppies and yuppie wanna-be’s who were using their houses as ATMs and now are fucked, but my attitude is one of mild contempt and pity, not anger. I certainly don’t want their children enslaved by the Chinese.

    Self reliant sentiments such as those used to be considered part of the bedrock American character. I can hear Jimmy Stewart saying something similar.

    You grew up at least partly here but are originally form Eastern Europe, right?

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  135. anon 20 saidSo I think the CEO’s and upper management of all of these companies should be sued. I’d love to see all of their assets stripped away, much like what has happened to their companies’ stockholders…

    the problem wasn’t just giving loans to people who were totally unqualified. Some of the biggest defaulters are upper middleclass who moved up to bigger homes and took out ARMs

    THANK YOU FOR THIS^^^^. Some people here just don’t get it. Bad decisions where being made from all angles and all groups. Nevertheless, of course, this is America and blk Americans are made the scapegoat for any and everything that goes wrong here by some.

    I bet many of those upper middle class people had high IQs so why did they allow themselves to be duped? 😦

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  136. Joe, another good one, I can actually get into this, but I gotta go somewhere.

    One thing, when you say “Let the Great Assraping of America begin!!!” … won’t you too be primly holding your ankles?

    I agree that Bush and McCain are pigs and their likes have been selling us out, big time. But you seem to put a lot of faith in the Democratic Party, which a few decades ago was really in the vanguard of this whole mess, and today is the Repubs’ simese twin.

    I disagree that ordinary Americans are to blame or deserve what you’re hoping for them. And I like Palin, althugh I am concerned that the neocons will soon get her to sing the “invite the world invade the world be in hos to the world” tune. Which would be tragis. She’s a fine woman.

    By the way, what makes the Chinese so superior or worthy of enslaving my electrician next-door-neighbor’s kids? Aren’t they letting their own scumbags poisin their air and rivers, shood dissidents and bill their families for the bullet, and force married women to have abortions?

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  137. I bet many of those upper middle class people had high IQs so why did they allow themselves to be duped? 😦

    Greed?

    Back to the original question. For the best learning opportunity, I think a painful, but bearable consequence is best. Like you would shield a child from breaking his leg, but not from scratches and bruises, you know? People will get over a 30K debt that did not prove to be a useful investment, but not so with the 300K debt.

    I wonder what the real value of a house is, in terms of materials and man hours. Likely more than it was 20 years ago, but likely less than some people are spending on houses.

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  138. on September 21, 2008 at 8:00 pm agree with whiskey

    really? cuz from the data i’ve seen, 2/3rds of Brahmin Indians in India live off less than $1200 USD a year. According to a Rediff article, 55% of Brahmins live below the INDIAN poverty line.

    in my post i was referring to diasporas, including brahmin indians. please re-read my post to verify this and then go look up what diaspora means in the dictionary. thanks.

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  139. @ 139

    PA – to answer many of your comments at once, there is no immutable law of economics or physics that says that the American brand of free-market capitalism is the fittest and will out-survive everything else on the planet.

    To the extent that anyone thinks so, I would suggest they’re deluding themselves.

    I’m not saying China is perfect at all. What you said about China is 100% true.

    But I live in America and can see the hypocrisies, depredations, injustices and abuses of this country up close, and they ain’t anything to be proud of.

    One example: GM and Detroit in general have been getting their clock cleaned by Asian car makers for decades now, and so-called conservatives on the corporate and “economic libertarian” right — and in that I include the reactionary noise machine manned by Rush, Sean, et al. — have been ridiculing anyone who suggests we needed to improve mileage, conserve oil, research alternative technologies, and stop global warming.

    Anyone who argued any of those things was branded a wussified, brie-eating, liberal elitist pussy — a faggoty bleeding heart Francophile, you know the drill.

    Well, now EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE CRISES are converging at once… global warming… peak oil… financial implosion… EVERYTHING. It’s a perfect storm of economic, ecological, foreign policy, and entropic DISASTER, and I believe it’s gonna get a lot worse before it gets better… if it ever really gets better.

    It must be really hard to be a right wing jingoist right now.

    By the way, 90% of these right wing jingoists are out-and-out racists as well. (Not that race is central to any of these disasters we’re facing, but a black guy happens to be running for president this year, so it is worth bringing up at least…)

    The other 10% are just addlebrained.

    Like


  140. what makes someone who is a white guy hate white middle-class Americans

    Correction: what makes someone who is a white guy American hate white middle-class Americans

    OTOH, one could argue that money is more important than racial unity…

    Like


  141. jaakkeli said:
    There’s an even more obvious problem: the housing bubble is global

    Please tell us more.

    whiskey said;We don’t have enough: airports, ports, railway lines, refineries, power lines, power plants, sewage plants, sewage lines, new highways, and the like to make goods and services at lower costs than competitors. In addition we’ve imported cheap labor or outsourced to cheap places and ignored training of our own labor to be more competitive with capital improvements
    Why don’t we have rail systems like those in Europe and Japan? I’ve been trying to get a good answer to this question since I’ve started traveling by myself.
    We also don’t save enough, with savings being discouraged in a consumer economy, where status displays like Ipods and Apple laptops signal suitability for mating, instead of frugality and the like

    Major Major Major emphasis here^^^^. I glad you made mention of the fact that we are discouraged from saving. I try to save at the very least 10% of my income.
    I agree.

    Elizabeth said: why should David Alexander have to answer for Reverend White? Why should every member of a group be held responsible for the words of one individual? I certainly don’t think I’m responsible for every ignorant, hateful thing a white person says. People deserve to be judged as individuals, regardless of whatever so-called group they hail from

    One of the many reasons that I worship the ground you walk on, and enjoy reading your comments.

    Like


  142. Hello Everyone, Roissy,
    Well, who’d have thunk that a boring, dry, and dare I say “Beta” subject such as Economics rules the day in a space obstensibly devoted to Hedonism?

    I’ve been reading along this blog now for the better part of a year waiting for the right time to jump in; I suppose this is where I make my grand entrance.

    Most of what you write Roissy I can either agree with outright, or at the least see your reasoning (we differ on beauty standards, but then we Brothas like a gal with some meaton her bones, especially the backside). Here, however, your reasoning seems uncharacteristically illogical.

    To suggest that the current burps and hiccups in the Markets are directly or even indirectly the fault of Black and Brown folk, borders on the insane. To be sure, far more than their share have been sold ARMs, and yea, Black folks in particular haven’t had the best credit histories; but as several other members of the forum have pointed out (and I note that by all accounts, most of them just happen to be, by their words, Black as well), the boom-and-bust trend ever-sprawling McMansions was the comings and goings of WHITE FOLK, not Black or even Brown people. Simply put, a whole heck of a lot of White folk out there bit off more than they could chew, got jammed up, and the rest as they say, is history.

    As is often the case, when it comes to America, at the end of the day, it’s always about White folks. Everyone else are just extras in the picture.

    I too like Steve Sailer, in fact, it was through him that I even found out about your blog, Roissy. Well, kinda – Sailer turned me on to Half Sigma, who in turn, is how I found out about you. All that said, like T of The Rawness (biggups, T! How was your trip?) points out, I think Sailer makes way too much of the Black and Brown dimension of the Mortage Crisis. Again, sure, they play a role, I’ll even go so far as to say one that is out of proportion to their population numbers; but to suggest that they are the reason WHY the Markets are in the tank is going a field too far.

    OK, enough of all that dry Econ 101 stuff. Let’s really get to the good stuff.

    Like I said, much of what you and some others, like SAM, say I agree with, but a whole heck of alot of it sounds a bit alien to me, and no doubt this is because of the differing worlds we come from. So much of “the game” talk sounds really contrived to me, while others are right on target. One thing I know for certain though, alot of what some of you say “works” WILL MOST DEFINITELY NOT WORK with quite a few Black or Hispanic women. T explains this in some detail over at his site, I suggest those so inclined to check it out.

    And while I self-identify as both a (Black) Conservative and a “Race Man”, I have to admit how struck I am at the near obsessive level of focus on Black folk in particular, by people who at some points claim to have little if any interest in the former. What’s up with that? Methinks there’s more than meets the eye going on there. This theme is a persistent one at Half Sigma, and other notable internet haunts as well. Of course, in a place such as this, where the Crimson Arts are discussed in a fairly open manner, sooner or later, in a place like America, Race must necessarily collide with that ole Bump n Grind.

    Especially Black and White.

    So, let’s get the BS out of the way, Ladies and Gentlemen?-and let’s really talk shop. Does The Game extend to interleague play, or do we still believe in segregated leagues?

    Glad to be here. Holla back

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  143. we differ on beauty standards, but then we Brothas like a gal with some meaton her bones, especially the backside)

    =================

    Yummmmm… me too.

    (I know what some of y’all are thinkin’…)

    Like


  144. 143 David Alexander:

    OTOH, one could argue that money is more important than racial unity…

    Whoomp there it is.

    It’s more about the elites/thestrong/highIQ vs. the rest. Race is just an afterthought.

    I’m beginning to think it’s time we non-elite whities take a page from the book of that fine colored gentleman and hero: Robert F. Williams

    http://www.sea-urchin.net/buggers/williams.html

    Fuck the congresscritters. Let ’em hang.

    Like


  145. 145: Mu’Min:

    So, let’s get the BS out of the way, Ladies and Gentlemen?-and let’s really talk shop. Does The Game extend to interleague play, or do we still believe in segregated leagues?

    For the mocha mommas you gotsta be a baller and you gotsta be hard.

    (david alexander wept.)

    Like


  146. TC,
    Indeed, you gotsta be a Baller, and a Hard One at that; for Mu, he would have it no other way.

    Speaking of Mr. Alexander, I happen to have read the truly sage and brotherly advice Roissy attempted to administer to him recently. It seriously behooves Dave to take heed and apply. That’s all I can say about the matter.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  147. agress with whiskey said;otherwise, i recommend learning mandarin, hindi, cantonese, japanese or some such dialect and getting out of here if the NAM population reaches 50% of the country

    What makes you think they^^^ want you to come to their countries?

    Like


  148. What makes you think they^^^ want you to come to their countries?

    -chicnoir

    Maybe the fact that they split and drip like ripe fruit for us ‘merican boys?

    Like


  149. in my post i was referring to diasporas, including brahmin indians. please re-read my post to verify this and then go look up what diaspora means in the dictionary. thanks.

    Where is the Brahmin indian homeland? Brahminland? If Brahmins have a genetic profile so distinct from the average calcutta slum-dweller then shouldn’t their success relative to the natives be orders of magnitude better like whites in Africa? If Brahmins are only 3% of india, there is reason to believe that they would be a very elite group.

    Sure, Indians are successful relative to other third-worlders in Fiji and Uganda, where í’m sure none of their success had anything to do with being english speakers or knowing traders in other countries. Its all about IQ; indians are smarter than Black Africans and Polynesians. You want a gold star or something?

    How about South Africa, where Indians count as black, according to Lynn have an IQ of 89, and benefit from affirmative action?

    Oh but we’re talking about “Brahmin” Indians here. How are Brahmin indians doing in Sri Lanka? Do they count as a diaspora? Are they kicking the shit out of a Buddhist race which doesn’t even have Brahmins? You’re the one claiming oppression doesn’t matter.

    Like


  150. Elizabeth

    People deserve to be judged as individuals, regardless of whatever so-called group they hail from.

    Roissy is way too scholarly for that.

    Like


  151. http://www.bos.frb.org/bankinfo/qau/wp/2008/qau0801.pdf

    dougjann saidit needs pax Americana for the globalization which is even more imnportant to Asia particualarly E. Asia than the US — but it is and will take a hit nonetheless.

    Will you explain in more detail please?

    tupac Chopra:I absolutely cringe at the pernicious notion within the black community that being intelligent is “acting all white.”

    I personaly think this is stated to often as being a major factor in why blks don’t do as well as other groups. “It is so not that serious.”

    agree with whiskey said:people like you and chic noir keep spewing ad hominem attacks or making other baseless charges
    When or who did I make an ad hominem attack against?

    Like


  152. PA saidBut if I invited one million of my Slavic cousins to move in wiht me to Korea, even with high IQs and good behavior, their presence woudl alter Korean society, and in some ways, displace it.

    I agree 100% with you .
    I don’t want to get too detailed (paranoia)
    Don’t be afraid. We love you here PA 🙂
    *blows kiss*

    Now, a normal Korean person likes his country the way it is, and woudl be justified in not seeing me an all those cousins of mine color-blindly, if it came to our in-migration. He’d be better of telling us, no matter how nice and smart we are, that we aren’t wanted there
    I agree with you partially here.
    I can understand why someone would immigrate to another country if they think the new country will give them a better life. If this country bottoms out and had no chance for recovery, I would leave. It’s very easy to tell a person to go back to where they came from when you don’t understand how it feels to do without the basics(food, clean running water). I place 90% of the blame on business owners. If they weren’t eager to hire illegal immigrants to save a dollar (currently about .02 Euro 🙂 ) then we would not have had this mass influx of illegal immigrants

    What makes you think they^^^ want you to come to their countries?

    -chicnoir

    Maybe the fact that they split and drip like ripe fruit for us ‘merican boys?

    LOLROF
    but I think they prefer the Hollywood myth versus the everyday real Americans. T mentioned something about this on his blog post about Sweeden.

    Like


  153. on September 21, 2008 at 10:14 pm agree with whiskey

    Where is the Brahmin indian homeland? Brahminland?

    right next to bollywood, sherlock.

    Its all about IQ; indians are smarter than Black Africans and Polynesians. You want a gold star or something?

    you want some valium? you seem particularly pissed off today.

    You’re the one claiming oppression doesn’t matter.

    i’ve got more stuff i could say on the matter, but i would rather wait for the rawness to respond in full on his blog. i’d rather respond to people who are sincere in wanting a debate on facts than people who don’t know the actual definition of diaspora.

    have a nice day.

    Like


  154. I nominate one man to take the blame for the current financial ills plaguing us.

    Richard Syron

    Many only recently heard of him as the CEO of Freddie Mac who in 2004 ignored the advice of his risk analysts concerning the precarious state of Freddie’s portfolio, helping to exacerbate the current problem.

    But the hideous Mr. Syron was also the head of the Boston Federal Reserve Bank in the late 80’s/early 90’s. This is important because of the landmark study they did released in 1992 accusing, without much in the way of real evidence, that lending institutions wouldn’t make loans to minorities. The government, with the Democrats back in the big chair after a long absence, used the Boston Fed study as a cudgel to beat the banks into submission. Hence the development of ARMs, credit scores, no money down mortgages, etc., all of which were thought of as good things by the mental midgets in the government who believed, as we see from a quote cited during the debate over the Fair Housing Act, “if they own it, they won’t burn it”.

    He also got $19,000,000 in cash, stock and bonuses in 2007!!!

    Like


  155. PA said:There was no welfare, and schools didn’t teach Poles and Italians that Anglos are evil. In other words, schools (and media) did not incite Poles and Italians to pogroms against Anglos, the way that schools and media today incite non-whites to committing pogroms against whites

    More details please

    agree with whiskey said:america was about ~90% WASP as recently as the 1960’s

    In the voice of agnostic,”numbers please”.

    I serouly doubt if most white Americans in the 1960’s were of WASP orgin only. To may whites in this coutry have very dark brown eyes and hair.

    Tsaid:while i don’t agree with the pc platitudes of a da or chic noir

    do tell Ricky Raw, what platitudes are those????

    dougjann said: BTW by now everyone knows that asian kids are just fine too, so no one tries to move away from them per se.
    I came across an article in a California newspaper some time ago that was in direct opposition to^^^. Many white parents expressed fear that their children would be pushed out AP and ______ classes because Asian students were continually outperforming them. A couple of white parents interviewed also stated that the wagons, which some Asian students attend after school, were a form of cheating.

    Like


  156. Just want to qickly wrestle Tupac’s “acting White” canard the ground.

    While it gets lots of mileage among Whites and perhaps other groups, a lot of that notion is overstated. For example, I’ve been Black all my life and have NEVER heard anyone refer to someone who was smart or striving in school that they were “acting White”. Now, I have heard of this. I have read it. I’ve listened to others, big and small in American life, discuss it.

    But I’ve never acutally witnessed it for myself. And trust you me, I’ve spent a lifetime in the hood.

    I think what is actually meant by this, isn’t so much the actual nuts and bolts of smartness – it’s been my experience, for example, that a great many Brothas truly admire another Brotha who just happens to have a brain – but rather, the style, or way or acculturation that they may have a problem with.

    For example, I have heard quite a few Black people take issue at the attempt of certain other Blacks to affect a kind of White speaking accent that would bespeak a certain level of education; this was seen as a tacit rejection of Blackness, if you will. But hatin’ on Black folks simply because they like to read and think?

    Nah…

    Holla back

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  157. Please to note that in economics, everything important happens at the margin.

    These various MBS/CDO/ETC are made of mortgages that are, by and large, quite sound and which are being paid by their responsible mortgagees. The problem is the margin and its effect on the value of the security. These so-called “toxic” debts actually still have relatively small losses – nothing like the risks a stock market investor puts up with – but they are losses of capital. Bond investors will put up with the loss of interest pretty bravely – anybody who buys a Treasury note is actually guaranteed to lose purchasing power at current inflation rates – and they will put up with the loss of gains to a degree, but they will not tolerate straight-up losses of capital. Breaking the buck is the kiss of death, whether you’re a money market mutual fund or a bond issuer.

    If a security is viewed as having a significant risk of capital loss in inflated dollars, its price goes through the floor. That’s why as somebody observed on another forum, if the USG missed a Treasury payment, it would be financial Armageddon. That won’t happen, of course, because the USG can just print the money to pay the lenders, but if it is observed that they are doing that, it would be almost as bad. Remember that it was Russia’s default on its sovereign debt, which it was obligated to repay in dollars, that almost destroyed the financial world during the LTCM crisis.

    Anyway, the problem isn’t that most people aren’t paying their mortgages, it’s that just enough of them aren’t that the holders of the MBS can’t sell them for even close to what they paid for them. Since they have so much capital tied up in them, they are thus totally illiquid and at the mercy of the markets.

    This is why it is entirely possible that although most of the McMansions had white people in them, it is actually the failures of the smaller loans on minority-community properties which are far more influential, because there are more of them and because their default rates are far higher, proportionally speaking. I wouldn’t buy any MBS right now, but I’d buy one backing a neighborhood full of whitey-filled McMansions before I’d buy one backing a minority neighborhood full of crackerbox* three-bedroom bungalows.

    M

    *No pun intended

    Like


  158. 103 T:

    Not intended as a backhanded compliment, despite the smiley. I meant only that I was reserving judgment about your specific argument until I read it. In general, I find you convincing, but nearly always in an unexpected way, coming from an angle perpendicular to everybody else’s.

    Straightforward compliment.

    Patrick

    Like


  159. on September 21, 2008 at 10:44 pm agree with whiskey

    In the voice of agnostic,”numbers please”… I serouly doubt if most white Americans in the 1960’s were of WASP orgin only. To may whites in this coutry have very dark brown eyes and hair.

    for someone who’s dubious of statistics when they don’t show blacks in a good light, it was amusing you called me on this. but, i suspect you are correct on this point. it probably was not solely WASPs but non- WASPs like italians and others who made up the general ‘white’ contingency circa ~1970s and before in america. nonetheless, at about that time, whites made up about 90% of the total population. see the bottom index on this chart:

    i apologize for its small size (you can probably blow it up if you so care to).

    Like


  160. but if one wants to be a real race realist, you have to acknowledge the role greedy white people play in exacerbating a permanent underclass.

    i could say the same about ashkenazi jews or brahmin indians. you can’t seriously tell me that jews and chinese haven’t experienced severe discrimination
    Excellent point.
    In this country, you must understand that blk Americans are seen and have been since about 1680 as trash.
    I think the reasons these groups tend to succeed where others have failed is that they seek out education (often at the top), and they also a more cohesive financial environment amongst themselves

    @T post number 98 sounds like something st8 out of my head. Sorry to tell you this, but we are more alike than we are different

    comment 108 by non white- absolutely brilliant.

    Like


  161. PatrickH, I was just busting your chops bro. I forget that joking doesn’t always come across well online without smiley faces.

    Like


  162. Greed and lack of government regulation are blamed but the real culprits are generosity abd too much regulation (Fannie and Freddie were always gov’t entities). The generosity was in guaranteeing loans to people who should not have had them. The complaints of “redlining” in the early ’90’s provided the impetus.

    The only “hate propaganda” is against white males.

    Like


  163. High IQ Wall St. type#112 said:
    How interesting, everyone turned into an economist overnight

    Does one need to be an economist to discuss what is happening to our money and economy??? In my observation, you the other commenters who have expressed similar sentiment, are akin to the proleblks looking down on blks who do well in school.

    agree with whiskey- Actually, I am not dubious on all statisicts or only those which don’t show blks in good numbers. If you can recall, it’s only the blk women are loose study that I have had a problem with.

    but, i suspect you are correct on this point

    Not trying to pull rank here but I think I am too. From my understanding, WASP is defined as white Anglo Saxon Protestant or those who have roots from England and/(or Germany). There are a large number of older white-Americans who have grand and great grandparents who emigrated from countries besides England and Germany.

    Like


  164. T: I forget that joking doesn’t always come across well online without smiley faces.

    Sometimes not even with. 🙂

    Like


  165. What makes me so sick, is that the CEO’s, CFO’s, and boards are not being taken to the carpet and held accoutable (read, class-action lawsuits aimed at taking every dime they have) for wrecking some of these-once-strong companines.

    -z

    welmer said:As bad as things could get, there’s a good chance some heads will roll in coming years.

    I really hope so.

    It seems like those on Wall Street get away with any and everything. Why can’t/won’t we implement or copy Japan’s system where the CEO makes far less than the average American CEO, in comparrison to the company’s workers.

    Why are American CEOs given a golden parachute when things go bad? I wonder what Ken Lay thinks of all this?I hope Lay ducked Ike.

    Like


  166. 159 Mu’Min:

    This is probably a pointless discussion since we’re just lobbing anecdotes, but for the record, my observations are different (well, slightly different). I went to a typical middle class junior and high school with a substantial proportion of blacks brought in from the surrounding areas. I also worked as a telephone lineman for 3 long years in this neighborhood:

    and I see it differently.

    But I’ve never acutally witnessed it for myself. And trust you me, I’ve spent a lifetime in the hood.

    I’m guessing the reason you didn’t get any of that is because you’re a bad motherfucker who also happens to have a good brain. No one is going to give any lip to someone like that. But if a young black man strays from the herd, by say, not taking an interest in basketball or pimpin’ out their rides, there will be hell to pay. I used to know guys like DA all through school and college. Guys who were just different, but had a good brain. They just fell between the cracks and didn’t really fit in anywhere. Some of them struggled to dumb themselves down (not such a bad idea in certain situations), but I do wonder how they eventually adapted. Others went “all white” a la DA. Neither is a fruitful synthesis to me. Sounds to me like you got a good handle on walking that razor’s edge, though.

    it’s been my experience, for example, that a great many Brothas truly admire another Brotha who just happens to have a brain – but rather, the style, or way or acculturation that they may have a problem with. For example, I have heard quite a few Black people take issue at the attempt of certain other Blacks to affect a kind of White speaking accent that would bespeak a certain level of education; this was seen as a tacit rejection of Blackness, if you will.

    Well see, this is a bit of a grey area. If one really aspires to enter into more intellectual discourse, then of necessity one should adopt the conventions of that community. It helps things when people are on the same page and can speak with precision. Yes, sometimes people do put on airs and do the whole Madonna/English accent thing (which is pathetic in its own right).

    Anyway, I’m out. Stay up fool.

    (oops) 😉

    TC

    Like


  167. You grew up at least partly here but are originally form Eastern Europe, right?

    Yes. I came to the US with my parents and siblings as a teenager during the mid-80s from a then-Soviet Block eastern European country.

    Correction: what makes someone who is a white guy American hate white middle-class Americans

    I agree that Americans should not hate their countrymen. In my question I was specifically asking about a white American guy hating other white American guys because Joe’s writing on racial subjects has sometimes been so ingratiating toward black guys that it impressed me as almost homoerotic (sorry Joe)

    Why don’t we have rail systems like those in Europe and Japan?

    My guess is two things: density and subsidy. Some of our higher-density metropolitan areas have good commuter rail systems, and good intercity rail connections between cities…. Boston to Richmond, practically. I live and work in the DC metro area, and I’m happy to use the train system here.

    The lower density cities make it impractical to develop a rail system that connects residential areas with offices. The other thing is, as far as I know Europe and Japan subsidize their rail systems more than we do in the US.

    *blows kiss*

    Right back atcha, babe!

    Like


  168. WelmerHey, on the bright side, American girls might stop being such bloated cows if there’s a really serious recession

    I was thinking the same thing while standing in line in whole foods.

    joe T saidLots of people who fancy themselves “economic libertarians” will be changing their tunes, if not their party affiliations, before the dust settles on this one

    I’ve always wondered about Libertaians who say let the market decide. I really think that if given to much power, most human beings will make bad choices and run amok. The problem with what is going on at Wall Street is, to quote another commenter, most people really don’t understand what the hell the jargon means or how the system works in its’ totality.

    Maybe American public schools should start teaching economics and personal finance to students.

    BTW, how sad was it that many Americans had no idea what the Electoral College was or what part it plays in the American political process. I don’t want to sound like a conspiracy theorist but some of these blank spaces that most Americans have when it comes to our country and how it works make you go 😯

    :hummm:

    FYI, I know there are those here who say it is the parents’ responsibility to teach their children about personal finance but some parents have no idea. How can they teach something to their children that they know nothing about?

    Joe T post 144- Excellent. It never ceases to amaze men how many people will quote Rush or any of those guys without really looking and reading what they are saying instead of taking their word as gospel. I think this may be more of a male thing thought 😦

    Yummmmm… me too.

    (I know what some of y’all are thinkin’…)

    I don’t so please share.

    mark in the ark saidThe only “hate propaganda” is against white males

    blame wht women and a decent sized portion of blk males, cause most everybody, else don’t harp on you much .

    Like


  169. Tupac said:For the mocha mommas you gotsta be a baller and you gotsta be hard.

    (david alexander wept.)

    “mocha mommas”
    Cute
    I like that one 😆
    Depends on the woman, there is no need to be something that you are not to impress any woman. From the net and blke women I associate with, they don’t like the chav/w*gger type at all. They actually hate when wht men apprach them like “what up shorty” or ” “I only listen to ____ radio station”-read the urban one.

    TC saidBut if a young black man strays from the herd, by say, not taking an interest in basketball or pimpin’ out their rides, there will be hell to pay. I used to know guys like DA all through school and college. Guys who were just different, but had a good brain
    I won’t deny that your experience “tells” you something else. Maybe it’s just that blk women are different as a group. I don’t think I’ve ever heard a blk woman say that she was ostracized because she wanted to become a wife. and not a baby mother.

    @PA- I think leaving the Midwest out, the US needs and would profit from a good commuter system for the South and both coasts .

    Like


  170. This credit debacle proves that libertarian economics is the only moral and sensible choice.

    Although I am Joe T’s eternal enemy, I also hope for complete societal breakdown. Joe T forgets who has all the guns.

    Like


  171. Mark in Ark- So we should just let CEOs fluck up the economy and just wait until it fixes itself?

    Although I am Joe T’s eternal enemy, I also hope for complete societal breakdown. Joe T forgets who has all the guns

    Guns are somewhat pointless because of the way we fight wars. The question is, look who all of the Science,Math and Enginering majors are. While your at it, take a look a what the healthcare workers look and sound like.

    BTW, I don’t think the average American under 50 can survive long under total breakdown. Even those who are not SWPL types(all races) live a very spoiled exsistence. How many Americans know how to farm? Can goods won’t last forever.

    Like


  172. Chic Noir

    Your avatar is revealing a beautiful woman. Is it you? 🙂

    “Low IQ references

    Admittedly, the references are designed to poke at my opponents similar to style used by the Cave Man Lawyer sketches with Phil Hartman on Saturday Night Live during the early 1990s, and it also serves as a humble introduction to warn the reader, but it admittedly does reflect some social insecurities on my part. In other words, if I’m not low IQ, then I should have finished college three years ago, and I should have a career with some social buying power.

    Why not rail

    As an open admitted railfan and roadgeek, I’ll list some reasons as to why American rail service is impotent…

    1) Nobody wants to pay for it.
    2) The vast majority of the tracks are privately owned and geared towards moving freight.
    3) We blew our money on building (or planning) and maintaining highways.
    4) We sorta blew our money on airports.
    5) Patch work quilt planning by regional agencies that barely acknowledge each other’s existence.
    6) Low density suburban auto-centric planning makes local transport difficult which makes inter-city rail less functional.

    I’ll give more thoughts if requested…

    Acting White

    I went to Catholic school for most of my life, so I was shielded from the typical black experience in public school, and I don’t have much first hand experience to offer to the topic. Mind you, at my high school, the high achieving black students associated with other white students and had few black friends outside of the smart black kids. Most of my friends from fifth grade onward have been wither white or Filipino and the few black friends that I’ve had have been fellow Caribbeans. The same has been true in regards to my brother and his choice of friends.

    As my nephew enters de facto middle school, I suspect I have first hand experience as to how life in the ghetto affects a young black man.

    Like


  173. I don’t so please share.

    ======================

    cn – It’s that I’m majorly into hips and ass… You know, the stereotypical voluptuous hourglass shape that so defies much of white America and the fashion and marketing industries.

    So I must be black, right? Well, I’m half Italian and we Italians have African in our veins from way back, so… that must explain these feelings I have.

    Like


  174. DA said:Your avatar is revealing a beautiful woman. Is it you?
    😯

    David she is a blk woman. Dude, what are you thinking.

    Joe T- I guessed .

    Not all wht Americans worship that very thin androgenous body that the fashion industry likes to promote.

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  175. Joe, are you from Southern Italy?

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  176. So we should just let CEOs fluck up the economy and just wait until it fixes itself?

    As much as one may want to see a bunch of CEOs and Boards of Directors lose their wealth, in the long-term we’re going to have to salvage what can be salvaged in order for the global economy to remain well-oiled and functioning. We’re going to need those high earners to pay their taxes and keep profits high in order to reap the benefits from increased tax receipts. Here in New York Metro, local area governments are bracing for a sharp decline in tax revenues to the lack of rich people generating wealth, earning money and spending it. In turn, I expect further budget cuts as borrowing rates for state and municipal governments go up due to higher interest rates from restricted credit, and as the baby boomers begin to age, increases to fund state and municipal employee pension systems that have lost value from declines in the stock and bond markets. If a bail out ends up pumping up the stock market and inflating asset prices and liberating credit, it may cost money on the federal level, but it certain spares us from rapid tax increases on the state and local level.

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  177. cn – no, northern Italy. Milano and Modena. I’m light skinned and don’t look stereotypical Italian. But, remember Hannibal and the Punic Wars, when he brought all those African soldiers into Italy. They started in the north.

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  178. Well, I’m half Italian

    For all intents and purposes, unless you’re WASP, you’re not really “white”.

    David she is a blk woman. Dude, what are you thinking.

    Pardon?

    Not all wht Americans worship that very thin androgenous body that the fashion industry likes to promote.

    Porn with skinny girls with exposed ribs sucks ass. Hell, there isn’t even enough meat to keep the fake tits in place…

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  179. Joe T

    But, remember Hannibal and the Punic Wars, when he brought all those African soldiers into Italy. They started in the north.

    Most N.Africans are about 2/3 Caucasian, though it’s often not a blended mix. Berbers are almost entirely caucasian for example. Weren’t most of Hannibal’s troops Berbers? The Carthegians were semite version Caucasians like the Phoenicians (in fact they were an ancient Phoenician colony), but they mostly traded and sea fared and got rich and hired mercenaries lead by Hannibal, one of their own, to fight for them.

    Sicily is not very far from N.Africa and can be reached with considerable risk by canoe type boats and rickety rafts. Happens today. Isn’t Sicily a route for a bit of black blood into Italian, esp. S. Italian blood lines? There were also the centuries of Arab rule wrested from the Byzantines/E. Roman Empire, following the sweep of Islam across N. Africa.

    Sophia Loren always looked to me like she had a touch of black in her — like maybe 10% or something. Damn hot looking whatever the sources, that’s for sure.

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  180. @182

    Doug – yes, but if you’re defining Berbers as “caucasian”, what does the word caucasian mean? It seems to me terms like that are artificial constructs, arbitrary classifications that were invented by amateur scientists around the same time “sciences” phrenology were all the rage.

    Think about it. According to that classification, both a Berber and a Swede are “caucasian”.

    So tell me what the hell that word really means.

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  181. cn – no, northern Italy. Milano and Modena. I’m light skinned and don’t look stereotypical Italian. But, remember Hannibal and the Punic Wars, when he brought all those African soldiers into Italy. They started in the north

    Yes, I remember reading about Hannibal and the Punic Wars. Do you have light hair and eyes? When I think Italian, I think dark hair and eyes (usually).Isn’t there is an old saying about Southern Italians being Ethiopians, correct? In my observation, a number of Southern Italians look similar to light skinned and mixed raced blks You know some blk women have a soft spot for Italian&Greek men :).

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  182. David Alexander

    For all intents and purposes, unless you’re WASP, you’re not really “white”.

    Complete horseshiite. That was a divide and conquor trope initiated principally by Jews and Catholic intellectuals to aid in scaling the citiadals of the chattering and upper classes beginning in the 1930s. They were wildly successful in short order. That’s just how fixedly exclusive the US upper class elites really were — and are.

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  183. cn – I have auburn hair, brown eyes and a light complexion. Because of the copper penny colored hair people think I’m Irish.

    Don’t know about Sicilians having Ethiopian blood. Sicilians tend to be quite dark, but not Ethiopian looking. Ethiopians have delicate features and that doesn’t really describe most Sicilians. If anything, many Sicilians look like a white person who is maybe 1/4 or 1/8 of African background. Curly hair, thicker lips, etc.

    This is not *all* Sicilians, mind you, but a significant number of them.

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  184. Joe T —

    Think about it. According to that classification, both a Berber and a Swede are “caucasian”.

    So tell me what the hell that word really means.

    I’ve done a lot more than “think about it” in some contemplative, introspective fashion Joe. I know quite a bit about it. It’s fascinating actually. It’s all about early human history, migrations, and bifurcation after bifurcations — of both genetic histories and languages.

    I recommend Luigi Cavalli-Sforza’s master work in it’s “abridged” edition (missing some of the voluminous tables but still having lots of voluminous tables) “The History and Geography of Human Genes”.

    He’s the dean of the field (genetic research into early modern human prehistory) and has been for decades, and is considered a scientiic lion within the politically correct fold, with a whole sub department under him at my alma mater, Stanford University.

    The short answer is that there can be considered two human races (Africans and everyone else) or three, or seven, or 11, or on and on. It depends on how finely you want to apply your looking glass to finer brances rather than broad truncks of division and splitting off.

    Note that this says little about how significant the actually differences are between differnt groups, only a lot of evidence about how long ago they split apart and for the most part stopped intermarrying/breeding in large percentage amounts.

    Other genetic evidence that’s a lot more PC threatening does tell us a lot about substantive differences between certain ethnic/racial groups. The research if fairly galloping ahead. It’s rather like physics at the turn of the 19th/20the century — when you know Relativity and Speical Relativity and Quantum Mechanics were dreamed up to explain the evidence.

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  185. Or you can read Nicholas Wade in the NYT on Tuesdays when he reports on research into genes and human history or genes and ethnic groups. You can go to the NYT and search on him. He does soft peddle a little, but actually often a lot less than one might suppose.

    He never ties everything into one large emergent picture however. Probably why he still has a job.

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  186. DA-You think blk women are ugly and the scum of the earth remember. 😆

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  187. Caucasian , white and WASP all have different meanings.

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  188. DA-You think blk women are ugly and the scum of the earth remember.

    Yes, which means if I find a beautiful one with a nice personality, it means something to me. 🙂

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  189. Chicnoir–

    Yes, I remember reading about Hannibal and the Punic Wars. Do you have light hair and eyes? When I think Italian, I think dark hair and eyes (usually).Isn’t there is an old saying about Southern Italians being Ethiopians, correct?

    Northern Italians, esp. when north of Tuscany and in areas in and around Milan, Turin (which is historically Savoy), Ravenna, Padua, etc., are heavily Lombard. The Lombards were an invading German tribe that moved on in after the sack of Rome and rather late in the picture, like in the 700s time frame big time, but came in relatively big numbers with their women folk and killed or displaced the severely eocnomically depressed rural remanants of the shattered Roman Empire north. In other words they weren’t just a bunch of Viking type guys who seized the top spots and married the local women, as e.g. the Vikings did in Normandy before they conquored Britain from there under the flag of being French, or as they did in Russia where they were called the Rus. The Lombards were to N. Italy more like the Puritains were to New England. After a while they were all that was left. Well, not THAT extreme, but you get my point.

    Southern Italians esp. Sicilians and Neoplitans are heaily Greek, since they were those areas were the big promised land for greek agricultural settlements. But they also got a sign. amount of Arab blood, and more controversially at least in yesteryear, likely some black african blood as well.

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  190. 144 & 150 chicnoir

    One of the many reasons that I worship the ground you walk on, and enjoy reading your comments.

    Thanks! 🙂

    What makes you think they want you to come to their countries?

    I had the exact same thought! Also, I so couldn’t learn Mandarin. Spanish was bad enough. About all I remember is how to ask where the bathroom is.

    181 David Alexander

    For all intents and purposes, unless you’re WASP, you’re not really “white.”

    Well, let’s see. I have both Protestants and Catholics in my family tree. My ancestors are from England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Denmark, France, and Germany. So I’m a mongrel mix of Anglo-Saxons, Danes, Franks, Germans, and Celts. My skin’s about as white as it gets. I’m talking ghost-white. 🙂

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  191. @TC, Etc:
    Hmm. OK, Lemme come at it this way:

    In DA’s case, I think there’s simply a case of the man being, or at least perceived as, a social outcaste nerd type, which is certainly not specific or unique to the Black community; in fact, I think this is what kinda pisses me off because it’s as if the Black community is the ONLY ones to give nerds a workout hen we all know that ain’t hardly true. Again, smart brothas are usually admired, not put down, at least that’s been my lifelonbg experience. Just look at some of the icons of Black America: Iceberg Slim, Malcolm X, Barack Obama, MLK, etc. Rappers like Kanye’ and Tupac mention stuff like The 48 Laws of Power and Niccolo Machiavelli, and so on. I mean, this notion that being smart in Black America is akin to “acting White” is just not something I’ve seen, and on its face is ridiculous.

    And while yea, I can see what you’re saying with regard to speaking with precision, there’s more to it, if there’s anything to this at all, than mere word choice. It’s a voice inflection, a certain kind of mannerism that those certain Black folk who get tagged with “acting White” adopt, that in my view don’t have anything to do with actually being smart and displaying it. It has more to do with, in my view, trying hard to “fit in” into the White World, which they have every right to do, and in the case of the DA’s of the world might be a good strategy since it seems fairly clear to me that they/he wouldn’t/couldn’t hack it in the Black one, but on top of this there’s this kind of contempt many of them hold when it comes to Black folk, kinda of how the middle and upper middle class holds the working class, or “proles” in such dire contempt. Do you know what I’m saying now? To further the analogy, I’ve not heard much from my fellow proles about hatin’ on middle class and above, Black or otherwise; but I’ve seen, firsthand, the utter contempt with which the middle class and above holds proles. Given how hard they strive to seperate themselves from the latter, it seems irrational and suggests to my mind that there’s some deep stuff only a series of trips to the local shrink can hash out.

    Joe T:
    I know exactly what you mean wrt Black women and their figures, no need to explain it to me. Like you, I don’t get down with what I consider to be the surfing board beauties, though I’m not knocking anyone else’s steez either. Me, I like curves, always have. And make no apology for it. As I was saying in anoter venue recently, there’s a huge difference between Zaftig and Zeppelin, and our White brothers seem not to be able to tell. Think Two Live Crew videos, that chick Scarlett on the Web, Serena Williams, that sort of thing. That’s the ticket. J.Lo ain’t got nothin’ on that, although she is nice.

    Chicnoir:
    I was thinking the same thing as DA – is that your pic? And, if you don’t mind, how do make your picture thingy come up like that?

    Doug:
    Yea, I try to follow the Race and IQ, etc. thing as closely as I can, and actually as a Black man it doesn’t really bother me at all. It only makes sense that all people won’t be the same in all things, and that need not be such a bad thing. Of course, one gets the distinct impression that the reason why so many of our White Race Realist brothers make such a stink, hew and cry about it, is because they feel shortchanged in terms of Affirmative Action. My problem with that then, is that they are being intellectually dishonest, because we all know the number one beneficiaries of AA are WHITE WOMEN, NOT Black or Brown folks, so if they really ’bout it, ’bout it when i comes to Merit, the heads they should really be calling for, first and foremost, are those of they momma, sister, auntie, daughter, and most of Roissy’s humps. But of course, since so many of you trying to get some, that ain’t gonna happen, and so many of the Darkies will have to play the role of Scapegoat.

    No wonder so many of y’all need “game”.

    Holla back

    Salaam
    Mu
    PS: Thanks for the kudos, TC.

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  192. Elizabeth,
    I’ve read a number of your postings here and consider you to be a lady of keen intellect. *Mu tips Kangol*

    And we agree that for all the sound and fury of our White brothers, the bottomline, as Dave noted earlier, is that we Black folks ain’t going back to Africa, or Haiti (I actually know quite a few people from the Haitian community, very nice people), or Jamaica, etc. Not gonna happen, and in my particular case I can probably prove that I gotta greater claim on these shores than most of the White folk typing on here. So they might as well kill that noise. The Brothers are here to stay, and it’s nice that you were among the first, if only, to actually say that. Or words to that effect.

    We also agree wholeheatedly that there’s a dire need for a return to the vocations and trades, for everyone simpl ain’t college material, nor should that be a bad thing. Now, I know why both Black and White parents of thmore middle class persuasions psh their kids into schools like this, and in both cases it has a great deal to do with perceptions of being Blue Collar as low class, ie, subhuman, and that really bothers me. Perhaps because I’m Blue Collar myself, and proud of it. I actually know what it means to actually produce something no dis to anyone else.

    Question: have you ever dated anyone from the Blue Collar class? Black or White, that is. If I’m being too personal, please feel free to decline to comment.

    But do holla back

    Salaam
    Mu

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  193. 195 Mu’Min

    I’ve read a number of your postings here and consider you to be a lady of keen intellect.

    Aw, thanks. 🙂

    Question: have you ever dated anyone from the Blue Collar class? Black or White, that is. If I’m being too personal, please feel free to decline to comment.

    Never a serious relationship, but I’ve gone out on dates with cops. A lot of prosecutors end up marrying cops. 🙂

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  194. on September 22, 2008 at 7:16 am agree with whiskey

    My problem with that then, is that they are being intellectually dishonest, because we all know the number one beneficiaries of AA are WHITE WOMEN, NOT Black or Brown folks, so if they really ’bout it, ’bout it when i comes to Merit, the heads they should really be calling for, first and foremost, are those of they momma, sister, auntie, daughter, and most of Roissy’s humps.

    i disagree. the disparity between the standardized scores between blacks and whites/asians is much higher than the disparity between white women and male whites/male asians. the amount of the disparity matters more than you care to admit.

    having said that, most of the people of whatever race who are against affirmative action should be against it for whoever gets it- be they for reasons of sex or race. and yeah, i’ll also admit that there may be some mitigation of that type of resentment toward white women due to familial association or sexual desire. putnam’s study on diversity seems to suggest that people have more distrust over people they seem as more different than them. being part of the same social circle (via family or friends) as women are would presumably diminish that type of resentment.

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  195. on September 22, 2008 at 7:18 am agree with whiskey

    Perhaps because I’m Blue Collar myself, and proud of it. I actually know what it means to actually produce something no dis to anyone else.

    seriously, too many people go to college. there are a lot of high earning blue collar careers. society needs to encourage blue collar occupations more. you probably did the right thing.

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  196. Aw/W,
    I’m familiar w/Putnam’s work, and while I think he makes some good points I can’t sign off completely on them. For example where I live, Philly, there was a published report earlier this year that noted the African American sections of the town had among the highest civiv participation in the country. Block parties and the like are very common.

    As for the White Women and AA piece, I think a lot of this is frustration on the part of White guys and need to displace it somewhere that’ll get little resistance. We all know what happend to Summers, yes?

    Salaam
    Mu

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  197. We all know what happend to Summers, yes?

    The Sumers incident surprised me, considering how speculatory and qualified his commentrs were, and also his solid “credentials” as an establishment liberal.

    I wondered if the fact that he apologized (and apologized) is what led to his downfall. It seems that whevever someone makes an un-PC gaffe, the wolves pursue more when you apologize, than when you stand by your words. Ann Coulter never apologizes, and she’s doing well.

    In the particular case of Summers, I believe that there were intra-faculty/admin power struggles, and Summers was never too popular with the administration at Harvard. The incident, in that case, may have simply been an opportunity for his detractors to push him aside.

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  198. Rappers like Kanye’ and Tupac mention stuff like The 48 Laws of Power and Niccolo Machiavelli, and so on.

    Mentioning something does not imply comprehension. Dropping references to appear intelligent is an old and oft used strategy. Anyone as enthralled to pop culture as Kanye West is going to have a very difficult time proving to me that he’s a man of sophisticated intelligence. Contributing to this mainstream culture is a hallmark of either depravity or ignorance of the situation. Perhaps he is indeed smart; but I ascribe to Heinlein’s razor.

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  199. As for the White Women and AA piece, I think a lot of this is frustration on the part of White guys and need to displace it somewhere that’ll get little resistance.

    this point is based on a myth. the psychological studies (featured, for example, this year on half sigma) clearly show that women of all races generally have a strong preference for dating men of their own race. they prescribe a financial penalty to men of other races such that these men have to make more and more money to have a chance to date the women outside their race.

    white men aren’t losing their women to any other race’s guys anymore than black men are losing their women to other race’s guys.

    asian women might be the exception to these findings, btw.

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  200. Just look at some of the icons of Black America: Iceberg Slim, Malcolm X, Barack Obama, MLK, etc. Rappers like Kanye’ and Tupac mention stuff like The 48 Laws of Power and Niccolo Machiavelli, and so on. I mean, this notion that being smart in Black America is akin to “acting White” is just not something I’ve seen, and on its face is ridiculous.

    I’m sorry Mu’Min but I have to totally disagree with you, intellectualism often is interpreted in the black community as acting white or uppity. I’ve experienced this myself, when I was given a lot of hassle and derision over my SAT scores by my black friends. When it came out how high they were on my first try, it was almost treated as a betrayal (I never revealed how smart I was and downplayed it, so for many of my friends that was their first exposure to it).

    As for why Kanye and Tupac mention 48 Laws, Machiavelli, etc., it’s not because those things are intellectual, it’s because they involve CUNNING. Cunning is the mental trait most admired in the black community, and it’s a very valid form of intelligence, but more of a social and emotional intelligence. It’s why street smarts are held in such high esteem. Iceberg Slim and Malcolm X, both are highly intelligent, but it’s their cunning and boldness that make them icons more than anything. Barack Obama and MLK are held in high esteem, but it’s not for raw intellectualism. I don’t even consider Barack Obama that smart (I don’t consider most lawyers to be very smart, regardless of pedigree, just very polished).

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  201. on September 22, 2008 at 2:55 pm Usually Lurking

    Anyone as enthralled to pop culture as Kanye West is going to have a very difficult time proving to me that he’s a man of sophisticated intelligence.

    Animus, that is a great comment. I never actually consciously thought about it before, but, anytime I meet someone who is interested enough in pop culture to be serious about it immediately drops big-time in my estimation of them.

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  202. on September 22, 2008 at 3:00 pm Usually Lurking

    I’ve experienced this myself, when I was given a lot of hassle and derision over my SAT scores by my black friends.

    Anonymous, I am curious, do you think that your friends would have reacted the same way if they had a previously different perception of you?

    What I mean is, let’s say you were seen as being no different than any other kid who plays ball, listens to Hip Hop and wants to drive a hot car and then, one say, you just happen to ace the SAT.

    I am guessing that you might have given off a “smart” vibe to begin with, which can irritate people who are aware that they are not so smart. Your SAT score simply backs up the fact that you were smarter than them.

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  203. I’m sorry Mu’Min but I have to totally disagree with you, intellectualism often is interpreted in the black community as acting white or uppity.

    james flynn (of the flynn effect) has strongly suggested that black culture at even the highest socioeconomic levels is anti- intellectual, and flynn has used this assertion to explain why extremely high income black families’s children do relatively more poorly than white children on standardized tests. i’ll provide a link where he says this in a debate with murray (of the bell curve) if anyone wants verification. he’s received scorn from some liberals for espousing such a position.

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  204. Sorry, that last anonymous comment was me.

    Usually Lurking, I may not have made myself clear in my comment. I gave no indication of being especially smart until word of my SAT scores came out because I deliberately downplayed it. I would literally hide my grades and downplayed how much I read and studies. I listened to hip-hop and reggae and R&B and house music, drank 40s and smoked weed, talked about ball, spoke slang, culturally and socially I was identical to my friends. I just had a very fierce intellectual streak that I kept to myself. After word of my SAT scores came out, THEN my black friends started treating me differently.

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  205. james flynn (of the flynn effect) has strongly suggested that black culture at even the highest socioeconomic levels is anti- intellectual, and flynn has used this assertion to explain why extremely high income black families’s children do relatively more poorly than white children on standardized tests. i’ll provide a link where he says this in a debate with murray (of the bell curve) if anyone wants verification. he’s received scorn from some liberals for espousing such a position.

    Black college professor from Berkeley, John McWhorter makes the same argument. I strongly suggest his book Losing the Race. He makes a convincing case.

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  206. on September 22, 2008 at 3:24 pm Usually Lurking

    After word of my SAT scores came out, THEN my black friends started treating me differently.

    Thanks, I was curious.

    Did you go to a college with a large black student population, and, if so, how did you fit in there?

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  207. You seem to get more comments on money issues compared to “love” issues. Maybe the money thing is more deeper lymbic than reproduction issues in times of enorous stress. You have to have money to survive when the system breaks down – you can have kids later?

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  208. Maybe the money thing is more deeper lymbic than reproduction issues in times of enorous stress

    I don’t know if this is a rule but t opossibly contradict your comment, times of stress often do create significant baby booms.

    Two cases I can think of is the more violent parts of Iraq in recent years, and the other is Poland during the 1981 Martial Law.

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  209. on September 22, 2008 at 3:52 pm Usually Lurking

    Miik, whenever money is mentioned, the Econ Geeks come flying through to show how smart they are.

    Just look at the names of people who comment on the money issues and ONLY the money issues.

    If Roissy were to post a piece on, say, Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie you would see the same thing.

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  210. This is interesting.

    First, I don’t recall saying anything about interracial dating/marriage within the context of Affirmative Action; my only point was to note how often White Males are so obstensibly aggrieved by Black and Brown folk being given setasides, when their White sisters get them too, and in larger portions, and nary a peep is heard about it. Perhaps the Larry Summers incident really does explain things. Hmm.

    Wrt Hip Hop/Tupac/Kanye’: I would caution those who are so quick to dismiss them and/or their fans. No one is making the case for anyone here being members of Mensa, only that they aren’t the knuckledraggers *some * of you are so eager to make them out to be.

    T: interesting that you would mention McWhorter; I too am familiar w/his work and recall watching him on CSPAN’s In Depth, where he said that Kanye’ West was one of his favorite rappers.;)

    Although I do agree w/him in certain respects, I have other areas where I strongly disagree w/his views, interestingly surrounding Hip Hop in general. But I suppose that’s another discussion for another day.

    As for your own travails, again I cannot relate, and I think it fair to say, as one who came of age in North Philly, that my upbringing was at least as “street” as yours, that I personally NEVER encountered the whole “acting White” stuff, and everyone knew I was into comic books hard, Star Trek hard, loved to read, would routinely ace Psych class and Econ class tests, etc. Again, this idea that Black folk on the whole has a lock on razzing smart people is ridiculous; I say its no more prevalent there than anywhere else on the American landscape; SMART FOLK IN GENERAL TEND TO BE HATED ON.

    Going to the question of the supposed “anti-intellectualism” of Black Culture, again, I think too big a brush is being applied to too small a pallet. “Black Culture”, as I’m sure you well know, extends a heck of a lot further back than Hip Hop, which, according to Dyson and others, does indeed have its share of intellectual depth (unfortunately, such voices aren’t the ones to get as much exposure, for I think are fairly obvious reasons). For example, just examining the history of Jazz alone would qualify as a singular artistic and intellectual achievement of African Americans, to say nothing of the Harlem Renaissance.

    LOL. I wish you guys (and gals) could be around to hear some of the passionate discussions taking place among Brothas about Geopolitics, American and World nd Military history, you name it. Cunning is indeed a major factor in the sources I cited, but that’s just it, one factor. To make it really work you gotta have the other stuff too, like for example, a keen grasp of history and the lessons it teaches.

    Not bad for a bunch of knockaround brothas from the hood.

    Holla back

    Salaam
    Mu

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  211. For example, just examining the history of Jazz alone would qualify as a singular artistic and intellectual achievement of African Americans, to say nothing of the Harlem Renaissance.

    First, the Harlem Renaissance is not the current day. People like John Mcwhorter and Thomas Sowell feel that the anti-intellectualism really kicked into high gear in the black community after the Great Society and the institution of the modern welfare state. In his book Black Rednecks and White Liberals Sowell documents how blacks, despite lagging in many ways in the post-slavery, pre-welfare America, where making great intellectual and educational strides, but how much of this was undermined after the welfare state was instituted in the 60s and a sense of entitlement was nurtured in the black community by well-intentioned white liberals.

    Second, jazz believe it or not has a HUGE anti-intellectual strain in it historically. The key is to understand the difference between being brilliant and being intellectual. I can have a natural, raw brilliance but be antiintellectual. I can be quite intellectual but have no natural brilliance. For example in basketball an Allen Iverson may have a ton of natural brilliance, but not be an avid student of the game from an intellectual standpoint. he just relies on a ton of practice, competitive drive and supernatural gifts. Meanwhile you have someone like Phil Jackson who was not that gifted in natural gifts as a basketball player but dissected it on an intellectual level, making him a great coach. Many of the old-time jazz artists were ridiculously brilliant and innovative and creative, but not very intellectual about jazz. They would have no interest in intellectually deconstructing their contributions in an academic lecture or anything like that. The reasoning behind htis for many of them was that they felt the overintellectualizing and overanalyzing of the music would remove much of the raw brilliance and innovative creativity and make it sterile, dry and boring. Read Miles Davis autobiography and see the conflict Miles Davis had as being one of the few jazz musicians who also chose to pursue formal music schooling (in his case at Juilliard). He ended up quitting Juilliard because he was afraid the reliance on form and structure and tradition would make his music “sound white” His peers in bebop were for the most part not supporting of his pursuit of a formal music education. This is not to say that Davis didn’t appreciate Juilliard, he just thought the raw sound of the street jazz offered more valuable contributions: individuality and raw creativity. This excerpt from another Miles biography also discusses this conflict:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=MeBDXkWxbbQC&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=jazz+davis+juilliard&source=web&ots=Wmd0UPoiXM&sig=4oRHNcrxxckQZu35hHHPqMf6Cr8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result

    Now the elite music academia has basically accepted and absorbed jazz and it is no longer a populist music of the masses but a rigorous academic discipline. And ask yourself, who is now more interested in it among this current generation, blacks or whites?

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  212. Oops, messed up the formatting in the above post. Can you fix it Roissy? If not, no biggie.

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  213. Did you go to a college with a large black student population, and, if so, how did you fit in there?

    My university was mostly white, but with a sizeable black minority. Over there things were slightly different. Not as bad as high school, but still not as good as it could be. Basically, much of the experiences Mcwhorter describes with black students at his university I also found (and was often guilty of). Also, there is a huge love of pseudointellectualism masquerading as intellectualism. A lot of promising intellects get sidetracked into expending their energies into conspiratorial, paranoid views of history (to counter the “white man’s history”) and focusing on learning mostly ethnic studies to the exclusion of a much larger worldview and crackpot sociology. This is why you see so many pseudointellectual lightweights like Cornel West and Michael Eric Dyson as being truly great thinkers when they’re anything but. Meanwhile actual black intellectual giants like Thomas Sowell get ignored by the black community for not subscribing to the liberal, conspiratorial worldview.

    Like


  214. on September 22, 2008 at 5:14 pm Usually Lurking

    SMART FOLK IN GENERAL TEND TO BE HATED ON.

    I grew up in a classic middle-class American suburb and never saw this. Some person might be ridiculed if they had terrible social skills, but never for displaying higher intelligence.

    I can have a natural, raw brilliance but be antiintellectual. I can be quite intellectual but have no natural brilliance.

    Great point.

    re: Miles Davis. It was my understanding that while at Julliard (and thinking about dropping out) he started doing serious drugs in an attempt to be more “authentic”. That is, he wasn’t exactly drawn to drugs for some of the more traditional reasons.

    Not as bad as high school, but still not as good as it could be. Basically, much of the experiences Mcwhorter describes with black students at his university I also found (and was often guilty of). Also, there is a huge love of pseudointellectualism masquerading as intellectualism.

    Things like that make me want to be a fly on the wall in the Math department (or Physics, or Chem, or whatever) at Howard or Grambling or wherever. I would love to see the difference between those students and the ones who seek out “alternative” histories.

    Like


  215. miik —

    You seem to get more comments on money issues compared to “love” issues.

    It’s so wonderful that you feel impelled to share every idiotic thought that pops into your “mind”.

    There are quite a few 200+ comment threads on this site, and many, many 100+ ones, virtually all of which are concerned with relations between the sexes and overwhelmingly with sexual attraction between them.

    I a understand stimulus bound focus on the moment as a sign of a weaker and easily distracted “intelligence”, but isn’t this going to rather an extreme?

    Like


  216. miik —

    Ok, I’ll now take seriously the puzzlement that you utterly failed to articulate, but which lies behind your comment that I posted above.

    There are few enough places in our society where the mask of political correctness is pealed off thoroughly, consistently and without hatred, but in fact from a position of knowing insight and strength. That’s what Roissy has done here. Virtually his entire focus is on female sexuality, the real deal behind the feminist lies and misdirection, and on the most attractive sorts of male sexuality to attractive females, particularly in an environment in which they are not wholly economically dependent.

    Regardless, Roissy skewers political correctness regularly and utterly reliably. He has yet to be successfully challenged. Disagreed with sure, but never shown to be clearly false or making things up.

    Realism and dissent from political correctness in one area breeds it in others. As Sailer says, truth leads to truth — it’s pretty lies that are a dead end. When one begins to realize how completely sucked in they have been by misdirection and falsehood on the true nature of female sexuality, and in thinking that gender and sex really is a social construct but for the plumbing, one becomes receptive to the idea that maybe race isn’t completely or even mostly a social construct either. And so on and so forth.

    Like


  217. T,
    First off, let me say that we largely agree in many areas, based on the reading I’ve done on your blogsite. That said, there are areas of divergence that I’d like to quickly address.

    I was responding to the view made by you and others in the forum, that the *sum total* of “Black Culture” is anti-intellectualism, which I roundly reject. To make the case that “Black Culture” has regressed significantly since the advent of the Great Society in just about every measureable way, is I think, a given. So I think we may need to be more precise us both, when addressing these particular points.

    Moving on to the question of Jazz, its interesting that you would bring up Miles Davis, as I was just thinking of a comtemporary giant in the field in Wynton Marsalis. In every sense of the word he is a jazz intellectual-classically trained, w/a keen sense and appreciation of jazz’s history and the grand lesson that it teaches Humanity.

    I would also like to make the case, that Hip Hop of today, is a far cry of the same of say, only 15 years ago. I would dare say that Hip Hop’s “golden age” was far more advanced lyrically and in terms of concept and sound/beat production, you name it. How to square that w/some thing began decades before in the Great Society is a very interesting debate to be sure.

    I’m not sure I would try to compare AI and The Zenmaster, for they are fundamentally different people in different parts of an organization w/differing duties, though I most definitely get your point. I think a better apples to apples comparison would have been say, AI to John Stockton, or AI to Reggie Miller even. The latter two players I would most definitely agree, were far and away more intellectual about their game and basketball overall than Iverson may ever be, and this is coming from an Iverson fan.

    Lastly, yes, I’m familar with Sowell, and have read several of his books, the one you cited among them. The point he makes in it takes us round robin back to a major theme of this thread: that Black folks in the South took on the culutral maladies of the White descendants of the Highlands of Scotland, which were viewed as quite uncouth by their British betters; this was the basis for “Black Culture” according to Sowell. The point?

    That, as Diane West noted last night on the Lou Dobbs show, the current financial crisis is a compelling commentary on just how far WE as a nation have fallen, when the bastions of restraint and caution-our bankers-need a bailing out, as if they spent too much time at the High Roller’s table out in Vegas. Now, keep in mind, Black folk don own any banks to speak of, and certainly aren’t in a position to drive the American Economy into the groung nor bail anyone out. West was implicitly talking about WHITE FOLKS. OK?

    The Great Society of the 60s no doubt hurt African Americans.

    But by no stretch, were we the only ones negatively impacted by that decade.
    OK, holla back

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  218. DA-You think blk women are ugly and the scum of the earth remember.

    Yes, which means if I find a beautiful one with a nice personality, it means something to me

    How sweet 🙂
    dougjnn-thanks for the info :). I really love History, it is one best subjects in school. btw, do you have any links to any really good History blogs.

    . My skin’s about as white as it gets. I’m talking ghost-white.

    If you have skin like Kelly Osborn or Dr. Pat Wexler, then you have beautiful skin. I am so happy that Kelly does not tan, otherwise she would most likely look like a raisin by the time she is 30. I like to see people give a swift kick to the beauty standards of others. It’s the reason why I dig that Paris does not have implants, Jennifer Aniston never got a nose job and of course the beauty that is Helen Merin. I have a serious girl crush on that woman.

    I am willing to bet that a number of men who visit this blog dig her too.

    Like


  219. 221 chicnoir

    If you have skin like Kelly Osborn or Dr. Pat Wexler, then you have beautiful skin.

    I love Dr. Wexler. And her products. I thank the day Bath and Body Works started selling them. 🙂

    But yes, I have fair, clear skin. If I attempted to tan, I would be as red as a lobster in about five minutes. 🙂

    I actually don’t understand why women do tan, for the reason that it seriously ages the skin. I have friends my age or even younger who have forehead creases and crow’s feet already. A century ago, women carried around parasols and wore wide-brimmed hats to protect their faces from the sun. Funny how times change.

    of course the beauty that is Helen Merin. I have a serious girl crush on that woman.

    Even when they dowdied her up to play Queen Elizabeth II, she still looked beautiful. (Not to say that Elizabeth II is ugly. As a young woman, she was quite beautiful, and she’s aged gracefully. She still has a beautiful smile.)

    Like


  220. @Mu’ Mim go to this site>>> http://en.gravatar.com/ . You can upload a pic from your computer or pic something online. You can also co to wordpress.com , make a profile, and post a pic there as well.

    Mu’Min said:It’s a voice inflection, a certain kind of mannerism that those certain Black folk who get tagged with “acting White” adopt, that in my view don’t have anything to do with actually being smart and displaying it. It has more to do with, in my view, trying hard to “fit in” into the White World

    I agree with you here. It’s more than speaking standard English. Heck Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, and Obama speak standard English. I think it has more do with rhythm, cadence, and a nasal sound which some suburban whites have. Whenever I hear the nasal voice, I think, suburban raised.

    BTW, there is nothing wrong with being raised in the suburbs, in fact, in many ways it’s an ideal upbringing.

    This is a little something extra for Whiskey, here is a link to an interview of Southern rapper, Bun B, who is very well spoken. If he can do, why can’t George Bush ?
    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4b9jc_bun_shortfilms
    Here is another link of him giving the lowdown about his investments and the economy
    http://www.byroncrawford.com/2008/03/bun-b-financial.html

    Mu’ Min said: but on top of this there’s this kind of contempt many of them hold when it comes to Black folk, kinda of how the middle and upper middle class holds the working class, or “proles” in such dire contempt.

    I’ve noticed this too. I think it’s the result of middle class people believing that the lower class are lazy, unintelligent, uneducated and lack good manners to ascend to the middle class.

    Mu’ Min said:We also agree wholeheartedly that there’s a dire need for a return to the vocations and trades, for everyone simply ain’t college material, nor should that be a bad thing. Now, I know why both Black and White parents of the more middle class persuasions push their kids into schools like this, and in both cases it has a great deal to do with perceptions of being Blue Collar as low class, ie, subhuman, and that really bothers me.

    I agree college isn’t for everyone. I also believe that you make a very valid point about the need for vocations and the way in which blue-collar workers are looked down upon. I think it is important to note, that a blue collar job does not = poor. Some blue-collar professions make more than those in professional fields do. Plumbers’ on average do as well as financially as most cubical dwellers.

    There is nothing like a man who can’t fix a damn thing in the house. I’ve come across men who can’t put together a simple Ikea cabinet on their own. I have a friend who is so petite and thin that you can carry her around in your pocket. Whenever something breaks or has to be assembled, she is the one to do it. Her boyfriend is useless when it comes to any type of manly housework beyond taking out the garbage.

    1. Elizabeth said Never a serious relationship, but I’ve gone out on dates with cops. A lot of prosecutors end up marrying cops.
    2. Must be the handcuffs 😆

    Like


  221. 223 chicnoir

    Must be the handcuffs

    HA! Thank you. Now everyone with an office around me is wondering what the devil I’m giggling at. 😀

    Like


  222. 213 Mu’Min:

    Again, this idea that Black folk on the whole has a lock on razzing smart people is ridiculous; I say its no more prevalent there than anywhere else on the American landscape; SMART FOLK IN GENERAL TEND TO BE HATED ON.

    I think you may have a point here. But the difference as I see it is the “nerdy” white guy is often involved in self-indulgent, masturbatory hobbies like gaming and comic books. It doesn’t bode ill for society if such hobbies are ridiculed.

    But I sense that in the black community, they same form of ridicule is aimed at folks that take a serious interest in science or economics or anything that might allow a budding genius to contribute to society. That’s the pernicious aspect.

    Like


  223. The T Man:

    Read Miles Davis autobiography and see the conflict Miles Davis had as being one of the few jazz musicians who also chose to pursue formal music schooling (in his case at Juilliard). He ended up quitting Juilliard because he was afraid the reliance on form and structure and tradition would make his music “sound white” His peers in bebop were for the most part not supporting of his pursuit of a formal music education. This is not to say that Davis didn’t appreciate Juilliard, he just thought the raw sound of the street jazz offered more valuable contributions: individuality and raw creativity.

    Good point. And I would tend to agree with Miles.

    Also, there is a huge love of pseudointellectualism masquerading as intellectualism. A lot of promising intellects get sidetracked into expending their energies into conspiratorial, paranoid views of history…

    The phenomenon of the “serious brother.”

    Like


  224. @Mu’Mim- To expand on that, I would say that people in our society are to taken with titles to show importance. Believe it or not, many RNs make as much and sometimes more than primary care and geriatric doctors. The hefty student loan payments & insurance, which doctors pay, should be subtracted from their salary, and you can see why RNs will often come out on top. The insurance premiums are making many medical students run the heck away from the idea of being a Ob-gyn. There are a few other things which I can think of that sort of make being a doctor no longer an easy road to riches>>> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9112732

    This Geriatric doctor is so deep into the red, that she went to Iraq to make some extra money to pay her bills.

    http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/world/iraq/bal-te.to.iraq05aug05,0,7800267,full.story

    *I’m not including surgeons , who often make about 300-350k.

    I think I want to be a nurse:)

    Like


  225. Can you elaborate on the term “serious brother?” Where did you get that term from? Was it your own term or is it from another source. It’s the perfect term, I like it.

    Like


  226. @agree with whiskey-there is a study to back up Mi Mum’s claim of AA benefiting WW, more than any other group. Asians are discriminated against to make room for everyone else at Ivy league schools. There was a book published on how children from wealthy families who don’t meet the requirements for admittance at Ivy leagues, pay their way in, and often drop out or struggle to graduate. Socialite Tinsley Mortimer struggled to graduate from Columbia(?).
    However, this is America and we never criticize the rich or make them beg for forgiveness for their wrong doings. See last weeks stock market crash and the many poor and middle class people without a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of, who were falling all over themselves to excuse WS executives for their greed and desire to look the other way.

    i’ll also admit that there may be some mitigation of that type of resentment toward white women due to familial association or sexual desire. putnam’s study on diversity seems to suggest that people have more distrust over people they seem as more different than them

    i will give you two points for this^^^. That is the mark of a real man. Some people will argue a point just to win an argument because they see every discussion as a debate.

    Like


  227. on September 22, 2008 at 10:07 pm Comment_Like_Children

    ****
    but how much of this was undermined after the welfare state was instituted in the 60s and a sense of entitlement was nurtured in the black community by well-intentioned white liberals.
    ****
    Again, we discover our leaders are idiot children, hardly able to wipe themselves. How else can it be explained that the poor, helpless dears didn’t know that paying black mothers to get rid of the black fathers would increase the number of black single mothers? I hear the mouth about Capitalism. How could I not? Day and night, night and day. And yet, somehow, someway, our less-than-children leaders ‘failed’ to know that paying money for doing something would increase the number of people doing it.

    I favor the mad conspiracy theory that the ‘well-intentioned’ liberals knew that providing money for something would increase the number of people doing it.

    Kind of like the mysterious timing of the failure of Lehman Brothers and AIG. Or do the little doves here believe that the failure couldn’t have been been allowed to happen a few months ago, before the end of the primaries? Or a few months later, after the election. Why, after the character attacks on Palin failed, did we immediately have this little display?

    I favor that our ‘children’ had no idea what they were doing.
    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html
    As we can see on the chart, before 9/14, McCain, because of Palin, was ahead of Obama. Then, fortunately, economic chaos just happened to be unleased immediately before the elections. Oh, those children, they know not what they do.

    Like


  228. 227 chic noir:

    I think I want to be a nurse:)

    Yeah, you could give me a sponge bath.

    Like


  229. I was responding to the view made by you and others in the forum, that the *sum total* of “Black Culture” is anti-intellectualism, which I roundly reject.

    Oh no no no, I have NEVER made the contention that the sum total of black culture is anti-intellectualism. Just that there is currently a strong strain of anti-intellectualism in modern black culture that has especially grown since the Great Society. But there have been many black intellectuals throughout history, this I would never deny. As a reader of Ralph Ellison, Malcolm X, Jean Toomer, Langston Hughes, WEB Dubois, Paul Dunbar, Booker T Washington, James Baldwin, Richard Wright, Fredrick Douglass and many other black authors I’d never even attempt to assert anti-intellectualism as the sum total of black culture.

    I would also like to make the case, that Hip Hop of today, is a far cry of the same of say, only 15 years ago. I would dare say that Hip Hop’s “golden age” was far more advanced lyrically and in terms of concept and sound/beat production, you name it. How to square that w/some thing began decades before in the Great Society is a very interesting debate to be sure.

    Indeed, I agree.

    I’m not sure I would try to compare AI and The Zenmaster, for they are fundamentally different people in different parts of an organization w/differing duties, though I most definitely get your point. I think a better apples to apples comparison would have been say, AI to John Stockton, or AI to Reggie Miller even. The latter two players I would most definitely agree, were far and away more intellectual about their game and basketball overall than Iverson may ever be, and this is coming from an Iverson fan.

    It’s important to point out that I’m not putting down AI in anyway because I don’t necessarily think that being instinctually gifted is necessarily worse or inferior to being intellectual. In fact, I’d say it’s probably worse. You spend a lot of time in your own head, think too much, second-guess yourself and can’t always get comfortable connecting with others and converting ideas into effecting action. A natural like Iverson can always learn the game intellectually at some point with enough focus, but it’s much harder for the intellectual to ever learn instinct. The advantage the intellectual has though is that because he has deconstructed everything and knows why things work and why they don’t, he has the easiest time adjusting and recalibraring his game when he hits a dead end and something stops working. When the natural, the raw talent and instinct guy, hits a roadblock, he has much more trouble making the necessary adjustments to his game than the intellectual because he was much less self-awareness as to why things work and why they don’t.

    To keep it related to this blog’s overall theme, you find something very similar in the pickup community with “naturals” and “pickup artists.”

    That, as Diane West noted last night on the Lou Dobbs show, the current financial crisis is a compelling commentary on just how far WE as a nation have fallen, when the bastions of restraint and caution-our bankers-need a bailing out, as if they spent too much time at the High Roller’s table out in Vegas. Now, keep in mind, Black folk don own any banks to speak of, and certainly aren’t in a position to drive the American Economy into the groung nor bail anyone out. West was implicitly talking about WHITE FOLKS. OK?

    Agreed, I think singling out blacks and hispanics for these troubles is beyond ridiculous, plenty of blame to go around.

    Like


  230. 228 T Man:

    Can you elaborate on the term “serious brother?” Where did you get that term from? Was it your own term or is it from another source. It’s the perfect term, I like it.

    To be perfectly honest I don’t remember *exactly* where I heard it, but I have a strong feeling I got it from The Man: Sowell.

    Like


  231. @Animus

    Kayne’s mother was a college professor and the chairperson of her department. Kayne did not grow up in the hood

    Dropping references to appear intelligent is an old and oft used strategy
    Agreed

    Anyone as enthralled to pop culture as Kanye West is going to have a very difficult time proving to me that he’s a man of sophisticated intelligence. Contributing to this mainstream culture is a hallmark of either depravity or ignorance of the situation.
    Kanye is a very talented artist. He may not be the world’s best/strongest rapper but there is no doubt in my mind that the man is very talented. He also has a strong artistic side, which you can see reflected in his videos and his concerts.

    FYI, I am well aware of his antics and crybaby ways. You gotta give him respect for calling out George Bush on his dropping the ball in the Katrina situation. He could have been blk listed, but he choose to speak out.

    @Freak show-That study came from the Nytimes if I am not mistaken. I don’t think it was a scientific survey but something the author noticed after writing a column about helping readers hook up or starting a dating service (?).

    I agree with you that most women and people period would prefer to date those like themselves. Who we chose to date or are attracted to is sometimes difficult to place in the nature vs nuture debate.

    asian women might be the exception to these findings, btw
    Agreed, I sometimes bristle when I hear some of the hateful things AW say about AM. At times they almost seem proud of their self hatred. There was even an article written by a WW slamming WM in relation to why she prefers BM, it left a very nasty taste in my mouth. I dislike self-hatred among any group.

    I wonder if Asian women who live in Europe date out with the same intensity. From what I’ve seen, I would say no. An Asian woman on a travel message board I sometimes visit( I think Rick Stevens) was disappointed because she didn’t get much attention while in Europe. She also expressed shock that a blk American woman (her friend I think), turned more heads.

    Like


  232. Yep:

    These articles of faith add up to a deeply felt cult of victimology that grips the entire black community. Some subscribe to it fiercely; most accept it as a valid point of view, at least. The “serious brother” who launches into a tirade about the War on Blacks at a party sets heads nodding all over the room.

    http://www.city-journal.org/html/11_1_whats_holding_blacks.html

    Like


  233. The sentence in my last comment “In fact, I’d say it’s probably worse.” should have read “In fact, I’d say it’s probably worse to be too intellectual.”

    Like


  234. Unfortunately, blacks are a net minus in EVERY society they inhabit, including Africa.

    Like


  235. Ah Thomas Sowell has many fans here. I read his autobiography a few years ago. Very interesting stuff. I may have read something else of his while in high school but I can’t recall at this moment..

    @Anon 203- don’t you think your friends may have been jealous? The best looking girl in school is often teased by the average and less atractive because she is best looking. Of course they, the harrasers, never admit to the real reasons they start rumours and the like.

    As for why Kanye and Tupac mention 48 Laws, Machiavelli, etc., it’s not because those things are intellectual, it’s because they involve CUNNING. Cunning is the mental trait most admired in the black community

    It’s also a trait that is admired and needed in the upper echleons of corporate America. Some rappers also admire people like Bloomberg, Bill Gates, Trump,Ted Turner, Warren Buffet,and Dick Parsons.

    Believe it or not,Warren Buffet gets a shot out for not being overly consumed by his wealth and he is often the first example that people use when comparing the *showieness* of some entertainers who have two drops in the bucket compared to Buffet’s wealth who is far more humble about spending.

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  236. Mark in Ark
    Unfortunately, blacks are a net minus in EVERY society they inhabit, including Africa

    You want attention but know one will give it to you with attention seeking statement like ^^^^. If you want to hurl insults, fine. If you want to discuss an issue like an adult, well there are few blk people here who may answer your question(s) to the best of their ability.

    Have a nice day Mark. 🙂

    One last thing, an unhealthy obsession fueled by hate for blks and blk men can sometimes leads to Bob Allen syndrome.
    http://www.boingboing.net/2007/08/07/rep-bob-allen-cites-.html

    Like


  237. Tupac Chopra, Chic Noir, thanks so much for the comments and insights.

    To pickup on the “Serious Brotha” theme that TC brought up, and which T asked about, I’d just like to deal a bit w/a few comments T made earlier about Sowell, West and Dyson (and we’ll include McWhorter).

    Though T didn’t directly compare Sowell to West or Dyson, still I feel to even imply such is a wrongheaded notion, because these are men who not only come from differing ends of a political spectrum but more importantly, they come from differing fields. West and Dyson both hail from the Humanities, while Sowell is a straightahead Economist. Attempting to compare them in any meaningful way is to me, simply wrong.

    Now, if we were to compare Sowell to, say, Julianne Malveaux, then yea, Sowell kicks big booty. I like Julianne’s spirit, but she couldn’t hold the man’s jock.

    In that they are all public intellectuals who come out of their respective disciplines to opine on the various aspects of the human condition pro and con, I suppose one could make a case for comparison. Clearly, T is right when he speaks to the degree that Sowell is excoriated in the Black community, particularly among its Academic Class; sadly, their critiques aren’t founded on any actual flaws in Sowell’s work, but merely on the basis that the man’s a (Black) Conservative. As one myself I don’t sign off on everything the man does or says, and yea, I do think there’s some subversive stuff going on w/some White Conservatives who gush just a weebit too much over the man and others like him; but, as T said, the man’s ish is tight, he knows his job, and, like I said, if I were a betting man, my money would be on him to whip Julianne’s economic a**.

    As for being a Serious Brotha, for me I simply take it that your a Black man who attempts to explore the World of the Mind, regardless of idiom. So often, I’m razzed for not speaking in a way that puts some people (mostly White) at ease, etc. I don’t feel that in the year 2008, after all Black folk have ben through, that its any longer necessary for me or any other Black man to mince words or attempt to take the Bass outta voice lest we offend the White Diety. Its my view that a reasonably bright person understands exactly what I mean w/o my having to plough through the Queen’s English. Besides, we Black folks have style!-and doing it the way a lot of Anglo Whites do it, is bland and boring to me.

    So yea, a Serious Brotha explores the contours of his and other’s minds, and does that in a variety of ways, a myriad of idioms. Hip Hop is one of my faves, but there are others. I’m just as likely to enjoy Life After Death as I am to get into a evening of Masterpiece Theatre, w/the late great Aleister Cook.

    Something else T, if you don’t mind; you mentioned earlier the idea of “social intelligence/emotional intelligence”. I had heard of this, read a bit on it, but I’d like to discuss this a bit more w/you (and others of course!) if you’re D. The idea of differing kinds of intelligence is very interesting to me, and if it holds any water, kinda pokes holes in the arguments of Murray, Jensen and Rushton, doesn’t it?

    I think one major ingredient in all of this, when it comes to Black men in particular, is Improvisation-which is a crucial element of both Jazz and Hip Hop. Being able to make dozens of decisions on the spot and in realtime, adjusting to a constantly shifting landscape so to speak, does I think require a kind of intelligence that I’m not entirely sure is something that can be taught or learnt by rote.

    For example, since this is a venue obstensibl dedicated toward discussing and to some extent, teaching the varying aspects of “Game”, I was recently going thru the Roissy archive, and ran accross a thread that had to do w/being able to have a quick comeback line when a female shoots your pickup line down. They were all canned, scripted, but som of them were very good.

    But here’s the thing-its a kinda alien thing for me, because I’ve never relied on “canned” lines for anything. Whether it was sales or making my pitch to a lady, I always relied on the Moment to get the job done. I improvised w/whatever was offered, and made use of whatever was in the environment to do what I had to do. Jazz musicians and rappers do that sort of thing all the time, for that matter, so do prizefighters and ballers on the fast break. Sailer’s talked about this at considerable length, by the way. I guess we Brothas are born Tacticians.

    Enough of the ramble. I’ll hold here.

    Holla back

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  238. Mu’mu 220 —

    Lastly, yes, I’m familar with Sowell, and have read several of his books, the one you cited among them. The point he makes in it takes us round robin back to a major theme of this thread: that Black folks in the South took on the culutral maladies of the White descendants of the Highlands of Scotland, which were viewed as quite uncouth by their British betters; this was the basis for “Black Culture” according to Sowell.

    Yeah. Actually Sowell’s work, particularly his masterpiece thrilogy on the impact of culture including ethnic culture on civilizations now and in the past, is just choc a block with similarly great insights. He has them for just about every major ethnic group in America, and a whole lot of other ethnic groups, particularly minority ones of both the highly successful and the not so successful variety, around the world.

    It’s a crime, and entirely a product of the political and social forces of our time, that his work is so orphaned. He’s shunned by the left, and hense most of the black community, as just another uncle tom black conservative. He’s embraced by the right in a way, but not really studied very much. He’s just pointed to. That’s a shame. He’s truly brilliant, and very worth absorbing.

    Like


  239. 240 Mu’Min:

    West and Dyson both hail from the Humanities, while Sowell is a straightahead Economist.

    i.e., he’s got his head screwed on a lot straighter.

    As for being a Serious Brotha, for me I simply take it that your a Black man who attempts to explore the World of the Mind, regardless of idiom.

    I think you misunderstood the appellation: it specifically refers to those blacks who restrict their intellectual pursuits to theorizing about the Great White Conspiracy without taking a hard look at *everything* involved.

    Besides, we Black folks have style!-and doing it the way a lot of Anglo Whites do it, is bland and boring to me.

    Big ups.

    “One thing is needful — giving style to oneself! A great an rare art!” — Nietzsche

    The idea of differing kinds of intelligence is very interesting to me, and if it holds any water, kinda pokes holes in the arguments of Murray, Jensen and Rushton, doesn’t it?

    Nope. But it is an interesting topic in its own right.

    I think one major ingredient in all of this, when it comes to Black men in particular, is Improvisation-which is a crucial element of both Jazz and Hip Hop. Being able to make dozens of decisions on the spot and in realtime, adjusting to a constantly shifting landscape so to speak, does I think require a kind of intelligence that I’m not entirely sure is something that can be taught or learnt by rote.

    Sooperdooper kickass doubleplus good insight.

    Would like to see you brothas hash this one out.

    TC

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  240. Unfortunately, blacks are a net minus in EVERY society they inhabit, including Africa.

    Really Mark? EVERY society? Even Bermuda?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Bermuda

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  241. dougjnn, why so hard on milK?
    To make the case that “Black Culture” has regressed significantly since the advent of the Great Society in just about every measureable way, is I think, a given
    I agree

    Black folk don own any banks to speak of
    There are a few blk owned banks still in exsistence. I think Harbour bank is one and there are two very small blk owned banks in NYC.

    Elizabeth saidI actually don’t understand why women do tan, for the reason that it seriously ages the skin. I have friends my age or even younger who have forehead creases and crow’s feet already.
    If its something done rarely like hair coloring, then I don’t have a problem with it. However, tanning often , is another story, it’s unhealthy and dangereous long term.

    A century ago, women carried around parasols and wore wide-brimmed hats to protect their faces from the sun. Funny how times change

    Agreed. I see Asian women do this all the time.

    @Tupac- Economics is serious. Rappers like 50 cents and even top level drug kingpins have a great respect for Economics. Some people only want wealth to buy things and flash and others want wealth for the power that it brings. Even Stringer Bell from the Wire enrolled in an economics class so that he could better understand how to make his money grow and clean it up.

    think I want to be a nurse:)

    Yeah, you could give me a sponge bath.

    What type of insurance do you have? I don’t except Atnea cause they hate to pay.

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  242. @Comment_Like_Children . I don’t think it was welfare itself that created that class of people who became dependant on it. I think it was the rules and regulations for welfare which caused major problems. For example, I often hear that a woman on welfare was not allowed to have a man live with her. So in order to receive benefits a woman must be a single mother with no husband/boyfriend to help with the children.

    May women on welfare don’t have good educations and/or job skills which would make leaving welfare a viable option. So what you sometimes had were women who would make a decision to work because accepting welfare was a slight to their dignity. Well the low paying job hurt them all around because now they had to pay their own insurance that was previously covered under medical assistance. The Section 8 monthly rent of a few dollars has now increased to market or almost market price , no more food stamps because you now make to much(sometimes by a little as 10 or 14 dollars) and, child care can sometimes become an issue too. Some of these women become hopeless as months turn in years living the same dreary existence.

    Sad fact: Many of those hopeless welfare moms went on to become the first round of crack heads in 84.
    Show me someone who feels hopeless, with too much time on their hands, and a severe case of boredom, and I will show you a potential drug addict.

    I don’t pretend to speak for the group but I will say that most blk drug addicts don’t become that way because they think using drugs is fun or they want to be subversive etc.. like a lot of sheltered suburban kids. Most blks addicted to hard drugs become that way because they grow hopeless. Again, I must mention The Wire because they got it right when they gave us a peak at Dookie’s decline into hard drugs.

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  243. 243 chic:

    What type of insurance do you have? I don’t except Atnea cause they hate to pay.

    Insurance?? I don’t need no steenkin’ insurance.

    I expect to stumble into the emergency ward and be given charitable treatment due to my horrific and lamentable case of Needingaspongebathitis.

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  244. A natural like Iverson can always learn the game intellectually at some point with enough focus, but it’s much harder for the intellectual to ever learn instinct.
    Excellent point T.

    Tupac Chopra, Chic Noir, thanks so much for the comments and insights

    No problem, I love to discuss ideas online with people who have a different way of looking at things, who can expose me to new ideas, and help me grow as a person.

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  245. @chicnoir

    Kanye is a very talented artist. He may not be the world’s best/strongest rapper but there is no doubt in my mind that the man is very talented. He also has a strong artistic side, which you can see reflected in his videos and his concerts.

    I never said he wasn’t talented. I said I didn’t think he was possessed of sophisticated intelligence. The two are not linked. Furthermore, I would say that Kanye’s possession of talent is far more subjective than a possession of sophisticated intelligence. There are some very talented artists, musical and otherwise, who are not ‘smart’. Pop culture is definitively geared towards a lower common denominator. Pop music is also extraordinarily engineered between inception and release. Popular culture is full of dangerous, ignorant and foul memes; the results of which give fertile ground to our host’s rants. Kanye West is a pop icon. Because of this, I strongly doubt that he is fitting as an exemplar of black exoneration of smartness as Mu’Mir suggested.

    That’s *all* that I’m saying. Don’t try to read too deep and infer that I imply that there are no intelligent black artists. There are many.

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  246. Animus,

    I think to make a blanket dismissal of pop culture and the intelligence of people who follow it is a mistake. There are many benefits to following pop culture, especially in regards to social and emotional intelligence:

    http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/05/16/050516crbo_books

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  247. Make no mistake though, I think kanye is a dumbass.

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  248. james flynn (of the flynn effect) has strongly suggested that black culture at even the highest socioeconomic levels is anti- intellectual, and flynn has used this assertion to explain why extremely high income black families’s children do relatively more poorly than white children on standardized tests

    I question if the high salaries of professional athletes may cause the skew in results in this factor. While not all pro-athletes cash out on their careers in the long-term, I wonder if the top athletes are less than endowed with IQ and thus may reproduce with women who aren’t gifted with IQ which gives birth to children who maybe lacking in IQ when compared to the children of other rich men who used their high IQ to build wealth.

    BTW, I suspect the anti-intellectual bias in some areas of the black community explains why some black men flee for white women. Depending on the environment, it’s just simply easier to find an intellectual white female than to hold out for a intellectual black female who may have some cultural similarities.

    I don’t know if this is a rule but t opossibly contradict your comment, times of stress often do create significant baby booms.

    IIRC, in the US, birthrates tanked during the stagflation era of the 1970s, while birthrates shot upward during the 1980s economic boom…

    A lot of promising intellects get sidetracked into expending their energies into conspiratorial, paranoid views of history

    The wasted intelligence of young men and women being squandered on silly crackpot theories like Afrocentrism. My niece’s dad is a crackpot Afro-centrist, and let’s just say that I spend quite a bit of time trying to erase the silly things she learns.

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  249. Animus- When I wrote talented I was referring primarily to his artistic ability. Although I don’t think he scored 400 on his SATs either. Have you seen any of his videos? They go way beyond the standard of women popping their bubble butts around expensive cars and throwing money around.

    One of my favorite Kayne videos “Flashing Lights” heavily featured a model’s booty but it went along with the song and theme of the video. Since Roissy likes round juicy booties, I bet he developed a bad case of hand lock after watching this video a few times. -I kid I kid 😆

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a–Pc7R8PU

    Speaking of intelligence*. This video garnered the most hate for Kayne because so many argued that the video’s concept wasn’t cohesive with the lyrics of the song . Some commenters wrote that they watched the video multiple times and still understand the concept. I got it the first time I watched it. I guess too many people in my age group are accustomed to having everything spoon-fed or breastfeed to them. Having to use context clues or thinking requires too much work.

    Popular culture is full of dangerous, ignorant and foul memes; the results of which give fertile ground to our host’s rants

    I agree and I would use the women from the The Hills as an example or wanting to make a sex tape because of Paris and Kim K . Roissy’s dislike of Sex&City I don’t agree with.

    Kanye West is a pop icon. Because of this, I strongly doubt that he is fitting as an exemplar of black exoneration of smartness as Mu’Mir suggested
    I won’t blame Kayne for being a pop icon. Isn’t Reagan sort of a pop icon too? Why should we blame people for being pop icons, unless they are depraved? If Maurice Ashley became a pop icon should be ostracize him? Bill Gates is certainly a pop icon should we look at him with scorn?

    That’s *all* that I’m saying. Don’t try to read too deep and infer that I imply that there are no intelligent black artists. There are many

    I’m not. If you looked at my comments, since I started posting here, I try not to do a lot of name calling:
    1. It;s childish
    2. It shuts down communication
    3. I try to treat people in the same manner they treat me.

    Some of the most intense debates I’ve witnessed have been about music. Behind abortion and politics, many people are rather passionate about music.

    Sad fact : Of the people in my age who I’ve been exposed to, political debates are rare. Or when they do happen, one of the two debaters is quoting Bill O’Reily or John Steward word for word.

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  250. *smiles a big smile*
    DA is on site.

    BTW, the world is made up of many types of people. One of the reasons I shy away from the IQ debate and even the genetic enginering debate is because it seems to me as if people have just found another way to make others feel inferior. I guess it feels good to have someone to point to and say,” I’m better than them”.

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  251. The wasted intelligence of young men and women being squandered on silly crackpot theories like Afrocentrism. My niece’s dad is a crackpot Afro-centrist, and let’s just say that I spend quite a bit of time trying to erase the silly things she learns.

    I wasted many years and much brainpower on crackpot stuff like that, and much of it was lent even more credibility in my eyes due to the fact that it was being taught by my college, a respected university. I even went as far as getting into the whole New World Order conspiracies, complete with the Illuminati, freemasons and tri-lateral commission books.

    Like


  252. chicnoir 247–

    No problem, I love to discuss ideas online with people who have a different way of looking at things, who can expose me to new ideas, and help me grow as a person.

    You are a diamond, girlfriend.

    great post at 245.

    I far prefer the “earned income tax credit” and stuff like that to straight up, something for nothing, welfare. Work does help give dignity. Yeah some work much more than other work, but most work gives some. Just making a schedule and having a structure, and having to get along with people that aren’t the one in 100 you most easily do get along with, and so on.

    I like to look cross culturally at things. The devestating impact that welfare has had on working class whites in Britain is pretty sobering. As always it’s a bit hard to completely tease apart cause and effect. I.e. it’s not like working class Britons were such paragons when they were still working factory jobs or in the coal mines and what not in great numbers. But the decline is pretty apparent. Dalrymple is vivid. He is no doubt a pessimist by nature, but still.

    It’s pretty hard to see how welfare in ancient Rome was anything but hugely corrosive once it really got going. It was laregly confined to the capital for the longest time, and did have huge effects there. It was one reason why later emperors often chose to make their capital somewhere else, I mean before the rise of Constantiope =Byzantium. Such places as what is now Croatia in former Yugoslavia, or Ravenna in N. Italy.

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  253. 254 T:

    I even went as far as getting into the whole New World Order conspiracies, complete with the Illuminati, freemasons and tri-lateral commission books.

    That’s a shame.

    The “conspiracy” is simple:

    The strong live off the weak and the clever live off the strong.

    Q.E.D.

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  254. that its any longer necessary for me or any other Black man to mince words or attempt to take the Bass outta voice lest we offend the White Deity
    I hate it when I see blk men removing the base from their voices so whites are not frightened. I wonder if DA does this.

    Its my view that a reasonably bright person understands exactly what I mean w/o my having to plough through the Queen’s English. Besides, we Black folks have style!-and doing it the way a lot of Anglo Whites do it, is bland and boring to me

    In corporate America, we must play the role, and I don’t mind. America is made up of a lot of people who don’t understand Ebonics or American slang. When I am on the subway, my speaking Ebonics is no ones* business but the people who I am conversing with.

    @dougjnn- Why don’t the right push his work? McWhoter and Stanley Couch get more face time as blks who are on the right in comparison to Sowell.

    Chika A. Onyeani’s(Nigerian) N*gger Capitalist is an excellent book. Onyeani’s book is a cosigner if you will of Sowell’s work.

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  255. Tupac Chopra
    254 T:

    I even went as far as getting into the whole New World Order conspiracies, complete with the Illuminati, freemasons and tri-lateral commission books.

    That’s a shame.

    The “conspiracy” is simple:

    The strong live off the weak and the clever live off the strong.

    Q.E.D.

    Excellent point.

    Using the KISS method earns you 5 bonus points.
    .
    DA said: Depending on the environment, it’s just simply easier to find an intellectual white female than to hold out for a intellectual black female who may have some cultural similarities

    I disagree. Blk women with degress outnumber blk men.I am not denying that some go for fools but many want husbands who can be active fathers for their children.

    @T- I do think there is a bit of truth in some of the conspiracy theories. What happened on Wall Street last week and the 2000 election gives credence to bits and pieces of some conspiracy theories. One of major themes in conspiracy theory books is that the idea “hidden knowledge.

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  256. *reads dougjnn’s comment and swoons*
    Thank you

    That’s why I often ask people to explain their comments in detail if I don’t understand. I like to see where other people are coming from. I would say as a whole, I am less about debating and more about understanding or learning. It’s funny how two people can hear or read they same comment/ passage and get two totally different meanings from it.

    The most recent example I can give is Michelle Obama’s statement about allowing Barack to run for president because “ as a blk male in America, he can be shot at a gas station”. Some whts read this the wrong way, they assumed she was talking about Barack being killed by a random whit person(whiskey?). In fact, she was talking about Barack being killed by another blk man. You know, the type of senseless inner city crimes you hear about on the 6 o’clock news where someone was shot for a pair of sneakers or looking at another person the wrong way etc..

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  257. One of major themes in conspiracy theory books is that the idea “hidden knowledge.

    Way to state the obvious there babe. :p

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  258. 257 chic:

    I hate it when I see blk men removing the base from their voices so whites are not frightened. I wonder if DA does this.

    Does a bear shit in the woods?

    Some whts read this the wrong way, they assumed she was talking about Barack being killed by a random whit person(whiskey?).

    Whiskey? Hell, it’s gonna be me if I don’t gets my loot on soon.

    BTW, what’s with the “blk” “wht” nonsense. It’s annoying.

    Like


  259. How sweet

    I think you can replace porn. 🙂

    I really love History, it is one best subjects in school. btw, do you have any links to any really good History blogs.

    Yeah, I did unusually well in history during high school, to the point that the people thought that I was cheating. Despite this, like an idiot, I went towards comp sci and engineering and failed miserably at it…

    I actually don’t understand why women do tan, for the reason that it seriously ages the skin.

    I’ll be honest, some of those tan girls look hot and it enhances their sexual look to me. In contrast, pale girls, especially with no make up, look sexless…

    I think it’s the result of middle class people believing that the lower class are lazy, unintelligent, uneducated and lack good manners to ascend to the middle class.

    Some have argued that’s why Americans, especially the quasi-meritocratic upper middle class, have severe contempt for their poorer and blue collar counterparts. For them, the inability of one to become successful, especially poor whites for liberals and poor blacks for conservatives, is due to laziness and poor social skills and manners. I suspect public exposure of genetic inheritance of IQ may shift the public away from such attitudes, but I question what the new attitude will develop in the long-term and whether this aids liberals or conservatives.

    Some blue-collar professions make more than those in professional fields do. Plumbers’ on average do as well as financially as most cubical dwellers.

    The difference is that you don’t find WASPs and Jews entering such trades, and such, many would prefer to ape as many of their characteristics as possible. Besides, white collar work is considerably less tiring and dirty. I work in a call centre making $12/hr, but I get to sit in a chair in a climate controlled environment with a dress shirt and pants.

    I’ve come across men who can’t put together a simple Ikea cabinet on their own.

    Even my omega male ass assembled my own Ikea stuff…

    I think I want to be a nurse:)

    I would have gone into nursing, but I’m too weak to be a male nurse which does quite a bit of heavy lifting for the female nurses, and I’m too clumsy to deal with needles. Otherwise, the money is good, but the hours are questionable, and it can be depressing at moments.

    Yeah, you could give me a sponge bath.

    I need a larger photo as more evidence before I consider the idea. 🙂

    The “serious brother” who launches into a tirade about the War on Blacks at a party sets heads nodding all over the room.

    It’s because his theories sound palatable because there’s a pseudo-intellectual bent to them.

    Just a few days ago, my parents who are generally reasonable people were complaining that police officers, fire fighters, and teachers received better contract renegotiations with the city because they’re mostly white, while the non-uniformed civil servants who are mostly black are being offered less percentage wise (11% to 15% versus 7%). For even the least afro-centric and race realist leaning (my dad sorta suspects race realism makes some sense) black people, there’s always that lingering idea that white people are screwing over black people simply because they’re black and worth less.

    I think Harbour bank is one and there are two very small blk owned banks in NYC.

    IIRC, I certainly remember Carver Federal Savings in Southeastern Queen…

    freemasons and tri-lateral commission books

    My dad has a book written by a white guy on freemasons. OTOH, my grandfather was a freemason, and my dad was too “cool” to join that old people club back in Haiti, especially when half of the dudes in it were third rate Duvalierist thugs…

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  260. chicnoir 244–

    dougjnn, why so hard on milK?

    1) he said something that irritated me and I was feeling iritable; 2) I thought he could take it; 3) if I say sorry, will you give me a kiss? No, no, I mean on the cheek? 🙂

    chicnoir 257 —

    @dougjnn- Why don’t the right push his work? McWhoter and Stanley Couch get more face time as blks who are on the right in comparison to Sowell.

    I don’t really know why. I’m not really plugged in on the right. Mostly I’m just anti-leftist. I end up being rather centrist, but not through compromise and certainly not through apathy. More by way of balance, and caring about competing claims and competing people.

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  261. 257 chic:

    I hate it when I see blk men removing the base from their voices so whites are not frightened. I wonder if DA does this.

    Does a bear shit in the woods?
    *DEAD*
    Some whts read this the wrong way, they assumed she was talking about Barack being killed by a random whit person(whiskey?).

    Whiskey? Hell, it’s gonna be me if I don’t gets my loot on soon.

    BTW, what’s with the “blk” “wht” nonsense. It’s annoying.

    just an acronym like LOL ,ROF and FYI.

    Like


  262. When I am on the subway, my speaking Ebonics is no ones* business but the people who I am conversing with.

    One could argue that when you’re on the subway and you’re in front of other non-black people, you have a duty to speak with proper English to disprove the stereotypes of semi-illiterate black people who are incapable of speaking English. OTOH, one can also argue that ebonics is simply the sign of low class behaviour and that we should seek to eliminate such behaviours within the black community.

    Blk women with degress outnumber blk men.

    Remember my dear, a degree doesn’t necessarily make one into an intellectual. Interestingly, the effect of having so many black women without degrees have led some to believe that black college educated men have no incentive to marry due to the lack of male competition. In other words, they’re capable of gaming college educated women without much work, especially if the women are holding out for a college degree.

    she was talking about Barack being killed by another blk man

    That’s why as a railfan and roadgeek, I have to fear from both sides. Questionable racist cops in rural heartlands who are unfriendly to non-whites and young black men with nothing better to do than to steal my shit or attack me with violence for no sensible reason.

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  263. on September 23, 2008 at 2:45 am Usually Lurking

    I hate it when I see blk men removing the base from their voices so whites are not frightened.

    I will let you in on something, Whites have not been afraid of Blacks since the 90’s. As long as you don’t live in da hood, what is there to be scared of?

    Whites are no longer scared of Blacks, nor do they feel sorry for them anymore. In general, I think that many people have just gone there separate ways.

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  264. on September 23, 2008 at 2:47 am Usually Lurking

    I wasted many years and much brainpower on crackpot stuff like that, and much of it was lent even more credibility in my eyes due to the fact that it was being taught by my college, a respected university.

    Hey T, how many guys did you know that was into that “crackpot” stuff that happened to be “hard” science majors?

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  265. Remember my dear, a degree doesn’t necessarily make one into an intellectual. Interestingly, the effect of having so many black women without degrees have led some to believe that black college educated men have no incentive to marry due to the lack of male competition. In other words, they’re capable of gaming college educated women without much work, especially if the women are holding out for a college degree

    I agree David.

    One could argue that when you’re on the subway and you’re in front of other non-black people, you have a duty to speak with proper English to disprove the stereotypes of semi-illiterate black people who are incapable of speaking English

    you can’t impress everyone DA. Why drive yourself crazy in an attempt to break sterotypes. Why is ebonics so bad?

    thanks UL.

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  266. you can’t impress everyone DA. Why drive yourself crazy in an attempt to break sterotypes. Why is ebonics so bad?

    The anti-ebonics bit is probably from my own personal values, but I believe it’s necessary that we all break stereotypes in order to prove “racists” wrong.

    As for ebonics itself, I view it as the language of uneducated people who don’t know any better. My nephew grows tired of my attempts to correct his English, but every so often, a little bit does sink in when he corrects himself when he’s talking to me.

    Interestingly, my grandmother was the type of person who didn’t see herself as better than her maid, but she always felt that even the poor have an obligation to learn and speak properly and have good manners. One could argue that I’ve adopted a somewhat similar viewpoint from her.

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  267. The anti-ebonics bit is probably from my own personal values, but I believe it’s necessary that we all break stereotypes in order to prove “racists” wrong

    DA we can’t. There are 38 million of us here. Futhermore, that is not the way American racism works. No matter what you do, or what you achieve, you will always be the N word to some people.

    FYI, I think its important that we speak both standard English and Ebonics.

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  268. No matter what you do, or what you achieve, you will always be the N word to some people.

    It may not break the most hardcore racists, it will certainly reassure those who aren’t racist that black people aren’t the people as depicted by stereotypes in the mainstream media.

    FYI, I think its important that we speak both standard English and Ebonics.

    As the child of Caribbean immigrants, Ebonics has no special place for me. It’s simply bastardized English, and it’s the legacy of inequality, IMHO.

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  269. chicnoir —

    Futhermore, that is not the way American racism works. No matter what you do, or what you achieve, you will always be the N word to some people.

    That’s simply not true except in the most literal sense of “some people”. Yeah, a few, a very few, will have fixed ideas no matter what. Then they’ll die.

    Group after group has gone from disdained to admired by most or even nearly all. The most dramatic examples are Jews, Japanese, Koreans and Chinese. South Asian Indians are up there too. Economic success is what they all have in common, together with relatively low violent crime rates.

    But the perception of other groups who still aren’t so totally “model” has changed radically as well. The Irish are a classic example, and one that Sowell makes a big point of saying could be regarded as a sort of model for how the perception of blacks has to some extent, but can much more change in America. In some ways blacks have greater potential, and in others greater challenges — this is me now more than Sowell. More inherant charisma, and facility with picking up or creating style, all kinds of style. But also (even) greater aggression and probably also some enduring book smarts challenges, though the Irish have had those too, or seemed to in earlier times.

    Cubans used to be regarded quite negatively but now are a Latino group that’s thought of as model, unless it’s being hated by the left for being conservative, on average.

    On and on it goes — the changing perceptions of various ethnic groups by others in America, that is.

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  270. David Alexander —

    As the child of Caribbean immigrants, Ebonics has no special place for me. It’s simply bastardized English, and it’s the legacy of inequality, IMHO.

    Full on speaking in Ebonics holds no attraction or interest to me, especially if the person doesn’t also demonstrate real facility in standard English. I’ll probably listen to their standard English more critically in fact if I’ve heard them going on and on in Ebonics.

    Black slang expressions on the other hand are richness itself, pure butter, and enter into the hipper mainstream all the freakin time, for good reason.

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  271. Folks, all great insights.

    T 232, just wanted to note that I read your post after the fact, but as TC said, the whole differing manifestations of intelligence is something that deserves further consideration if you’re down.

    Several points:

    Code Switching: I think its important to keep in mind, that when I mention things like style wrt Black folks, I’m not talking about Ebonics at all, something that I have no firm view of either way. I never engaged in much of it myself, only because as a Black person who used a fiar amount of “Black slang” I felt it was a kind of overkill. When I’m speaking about “style”, I’m talking about voice inflection and mannerisms, which can play even in a more “straight” environment, such as the corporate world. For example, though I’m blue collar, I would lay odds that I have much more style than the erstwhile DA. Brooks Brothers and Jos. A. Bank ain’t got nothin’ on Versace or Armani or even a good ole Kenneth Cole suit. To say nothing about the shoes.

    So yea, while its true CN, that its necessary to “code switch” to some extent if you’re Black and have any aspirations to ascend as it were, I still maintain that it is possible to do so w/o being completely assimilated in Borg fashion, if you will. Especially at a time when the wider (read, Whiter) society seems more receptive to the realities of Real Race differences. As TC, I think it was him, notes, many aspects of Black slang has worked itself into the lexicon of American English. But then, when one studies the African American Experience, flippin’ the script has always been the Black Tradition.

    On White Women Tanning: I think this has to do w/the idea that the dusky-hued woman was more sexually unrestrained and inviting. If one studies the lit of Germany, Hungary and the like, one finds quite a bit written about the darker skinned lass for whom many, but brief and torrid affairs was a constant theme. She played against the more fairskinned and proper lady whom you took home to meet the folks. I think Devlin talks about all this, if memory serves.

    On Kanye’ West: indeed, like Dave Chappelle, KW hails from a solidly academic family, both his parents were scholars I believe, and has always solld himself as the thinking man’s rapper. Whether he actually is a thinker is I suppose debatable, but I think, when compare to his peers, he undoubtedly brings something new and fresh to the table, and as a combined producer/rapper is definitely near the top of the field at present. Historicaly, he couldn’t hold a light to Rakim or even Kool G Rap, or Jay-Z, but again, one must always be seen against the competition of their day to get a sense of perspective. He certainly isn’t the be all end all, but I think his music and videos certainly provide the “all spark” if you will to imbue other brothers w/the love of learning.

    Which brings me to another point-whether we agree or disagree w/Dyson and West, one thing we have to give both of them MAD CREDIT for, is that they both, and Dyson definitely, made the idea of Black men seeking th Life of the Mind not only Cool, but SEXY. I have an immense amount of respect for Sowell, but he’s akin to insider baseball, who one would most likely never see on the streets of South Central kicking it with the brothas on the block. Whether West or Dyson would do it either is debatable. But the point is, at the very least they speak to brothas there on that level, in their talks and books, etc. And in that respect it remainds me of Malcolm’s “fishing for the dead”. I have mad love for people who can take their high falutin’ learnin’ and make it real and practical and accessible for the masses, especially in those areas of the nation where angels fear to tread. And I personally can say, that had it not been for West and Dyson, etc, I probably would never have picked up anything by Sowell. So they do indeed have their place and purpose.

    On White & Black Women, & IQ: w/all due respect to DA, I’ve had easily twice as many White and Black women as he’s had, and I can assure him that White gals do NOT have the lock on intellectual capacities. If anything, some of the deepest women in that regard in my experience have been Sistas, quite frankly.

    And while I’m here since I have folks from the islands in my family, and know intimately many people from Haiti, etc, their broken English speaking styles make Ebonics blush by comparison. Don’t front.

    Again, excellent points, people! Continue…

    Holla back

    Salaam
    Mu

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  272. I won’t blame Kayne for being a pop icon. Isn’t Reagan sort of a pop icon too? Why should we blame people for being pop icons, unless they are depraved? If Maurice Ashley became a pop icon should be ostracize him? Bill Gates is certainly a pop icon should we look at him with scorn?

    Come on, really? Is that it? This has got to be one of the weakest arguments I’ve ever read. Reagan’s infusion into the public mind came about because of his office. Bill Gates because of his money. These people had purposes outside of becoming part of the social conscience and they did not actively participate in it’s construction. Neither of them ever made it to the MTV Awards, k thx. Kanye West, like it or not produces and involves himself with the manufacture of pop culture. He embroils himself in it. The difference is vast.

    As for why we should blame these people for it, that’s something I’ve already stated. Current pop culture is depraved. It cages the minds of its thralls.

    Thinking man’s rapper? Is that what ‘Golddigger’ is supposed to make me think? Please.

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  273. It cages the minds of its thralls.

    No, it plays to already caged minds. There are plenty of serious people who do serious things for a living that enjoy a little Entourage or Kanye West now and again.

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  274. There are plenty of serious people who do serious things for a living that enjoy a little Entourage or Kanye West now and again.

    *Shit*, I enjoy those things from time to time. Just because it can be enjoyed responsibly doesn’t change the fact that it’s dangerous and can be stifling.

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  275. Dangerous? I think dangerous is a dangerous word.

    Also…

    *Shit*, I enjoy those things from time to time. Just because it can be enjoyed responsibly doesn’t change the fact that it’s dangerous and can be stifling.

    Interestingly, you could be talking about alcohol or pot in that sentence too.

    Roissy hates my kind, but a libertarian would say that people should be allowed to enjoy what they enjoy so long as it does not infringe on the rights of others.

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  276. on September 23, 2008 at 6:26 pm Usually Lurking

    …people should be allowed to enjoy what they enjoy so long as it does not infringe on the rights of others.

    There is a huge difference between “enjoying” something and taking it seriously.

    When I was a teenager I would read my horoscope, but I never took it seriously. When you see Pop Culture as it is and then decide that this is what you want to do for a living, then that is a sign of something bad.

    Remember, The Beatles did not take themselves seriously. Hell, neither did Chuck Berry.

    Scorsese simply wanted to show the world some stories.

    Kanye takes himself seriously.

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  277. Well I guess we’re fortunate to have you as an arbiter of what is allowed to be taken seriously and what isn’t.

    Do you spend a lot of time concerned that Kanye takes himself too seriously? Does it weigh on your mind and prevent you from sleeping?

    Sounds like you take other people too seriously.

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  278. on September 23, 2008 at 7:03 pm Usually Lurking

    Well I guess we’re fortunate to have you as an arbiter of what is allowed to be taken seriously and what isn’t.

    No arbiter, just a man with an opinion. Some take Pop Culture Hip-Hop “artists” seriously, others don’t. And, again, this all started with whether someone could take a person like Kanye West seriously, because, you know, he drops references to things like Machiavelli.

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  279. Usually Lurking said: will let you in on something, Whites have not been afraid of Blacks since the 90’s. As long as you don’t live in da hood, what is there to be scared of?

    Whites are no longer scared of Blacks, nor do they feel sorry for them anymore. In general, I think that many people have just gone there separate ways

    Ul, what human being wants people to feel sorry for them? I would prefer empathy. When people feel sorry for you, it’s pity that they have for you.

    In addition, there are plenty of WP who are afraid of blk people. Believe it or not, I’ve had whiteAmerican men(few 5) look at me with pure FEAR and cross to the other side of the street to avoid walking pass me others have looked at me like a dear in the head lights until they pass me.

    When I wear sweat clothes in the winter, I really get the fearful look (ww&wm) until they are close enough to realize that I am a woman, therefore they can relax –a little bit anyway*.

    DA looks like he can fix the most archaic 80’s apple computer in a hr flat. I am willing to bet DA has had people give him the fearful look but I am sure DA gets it far less that blk men who look more like VK.
    *sarcasm

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  280. FYI, I think its important that we speak both standard English and Ebonics.

    As the child of Caribbean immigrants, Ebonics has no special place for me. It’s simply bastardized English, and it’s the legacy of inequality, IMHO

    I understand this and I very good observation for you to make. I would ask that you understand that Ebonics( excluding slang) is to African-Americans what Haitian Creole is to Haitains.

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  281. Dougjnn- Well keep in mind that AAs have lived in this country longer than any other group excluding the Native Americans and Pilgrims. Most elderly AA that you see on the streets of America have great-grandparents(all) who were born here. Most whites Americans cannot say the same. If anyone can call himself or herself American, it is AAs along with Native Americans and the Pilgrims*.

    I mention this^^^ to help you understand that slavery ended 1865. For another 100 years after that we had Jim Crow. After slavery ended, blk Americans where eager to integrate and become a part of America in the truest since of the word. Ifsome whites hadn’t come up with the Jim Crowe system we could of been become apart of this countries fabric like the other groups you named.

    I also came across some blowhard at HS who said that the reason mixed race blks are called blk is because blk leaders don’t want to lose their numbers. That is only partially true. Whites came up with the system to preserve their racial purity. They took a look at New Orleans where they were many mixed-race individuals who looked like Charles Rangel, Jenifer Beale, Cash Warren, and Carlie Simon and didn’t want the same thing to happen among American whites.

    Fun Fact: Plessy v. Ferguson is what partially lead to the Jim Crowe era. The Plessy was only 1/8 blk and looked like a white man. Read to find out more about his story.

    Read about the
    Freedman’s Bureau which the illiterate Andrew Johnson didn’t want to fund. There are many sources detailing the eagerness that blks had for learning to read and write. Even the old old blks had a desire to learn to read.

    FYI, crime rates among blks where much lower then. So you can’t use that excuse.

    Read about blk wall St in Tulsa Oklahoma. In some places Blk Americans had established their own and guess what racist whites would destroy it, repeatedly. I think this may be a reason for the apathy that some blk Americans have.

    Therefore, at the end of the day, we have a group of people who really had to use for us after the end of slavery since technology made it so that keeping slaves were expensive and decent honest whts like the Quakers spook out against slavery because they understood that it was wrong.

    I think Whiskey(?) may have mentioned that the white church worked to free blks. He had that partially wrong. It was the Quakers, who were white, who worked to free blks. The way he wrote about it, may have confused some of you into thinking that the Protestants or Baptists(larger groups) pushed to end slavery.

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  282. Dougjn- Don’t forget that most Cubans are blk(55%). The large Cuban that you see in Florida who look like Preez Hilton, are white and are from elite families in Cuba. There was slavery in Cuba too. It was a bit more humane (?) if slavery can ever be that, than US slavery.

    You must understand that AA are at the bottom of the heap in America. Every country has their trash so to speak, in India it is the Untouchables. If a large number of white Americans moved to India tomorrow, to work low paying jobs. I am sure they would be looked down upon but they would still rank higher than an Indian untouchable. After a generation or two the children & grandchildren of those Americans immigrants assimilated, were peaceful, became educated, and had good jobs, they would rank higher in society than the untouchables. Even if all of untouchables became millionaires, peaceful and educated they would still be at the bottom of the heap.

    I don’t think Cubans as a groups have had it as hard as blks in this country.
    Fun Fact: When Lena Horne was a Hollywood star in the 1940’s she was told that she should lie and say that she was Cuban so she could get more roles.

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  283. chicnoir 284 —

    This post has it’s interesting bits, and certainly lots I can agree with. For example, it’s perfectly true that the cancestry of some blacks in the US is as old as almost any whites, and that of the average black predates that of the average white (since blacks stopped being brought in in large numbers (there was smuggling but not in enormous volume) following the closing of the US to international slave trading in 1808, the earliest time under a Constitutional compromise that legislation closing the borders to slave importation could be Constitutionally passed.

    But it’s also choc a bloc with half truths. I’d have to write an extended essay to deal with them all, which I don’t feel motivated to do. One example is the 100 years of Jim Crow. Yeah in the South, butnot the north. Yes there was discrimination and “blacks not admitted” signs in various hotels and restaurants in the north, but also not in others. There was no rigid bar. Blacks could and did become millionarres in the north. There was freedom of association “housing discrimination” against all kids of groups inclluding ones that became the most successful (e.g. Jews), and between various groups that weren’t in the majority. Net net, there was no impossible bar to black success in most parts of the north, but in some places and at some times there were ugly incidents or even semi pogroms (Oklahoma — which is only marginally if at all “in the north”.) The bar to black progress is in other words VASTLY exaggerated by leftists and black pride intellectuals.

    One other thing. This:

    the white church worked to free blks. He had that partially wrong. It was the Quakers, who were white, who worked to free blks. The way he wrote about it, may have confused some of you into thinking that the Protestants or Baptists(larger groups) pushed to end slavery.

    You sound like the one who’s confused or has been mislead. I didn’t see anyone claim that all white churches worked to end slavery before the civil war. It’s certainly the case that that was a very rare (but not entirely unknown, in an underground way) thing for white churchs to do in the south, where most Baptists are concentrated.

    However it was a VERY WIDESPREAD moral mission of churches in the North to oppose slavery, particularly in New England and yes Pennsylvani — and in New England cultural offshoot places in the north. Beecher, the brother of Harriet Beecher Stowe of Uncle Tom’s Cabin fame, was minister of the largest church in New York City (Brooklyn) and an ardent abolitionist. The Congregationalist and Presbyterian churchs generally were anti slavery, as were many others, including many Mehodist congregations.

    Note, the vast majority of abolitionists DID think blacks were less intelligent than whites as a matter of blood or biology (which they tended to think could change over time, but only slowly). They were likely to emphasize even mroe beliefs in “moral weakness” among blacks, such as childlike susceptablity to all manner of temptation including sexual temptation, difficulty in planning ahead, and so on. I’m saying all this to make clear that the opposition to slavery was not exactly a modern notion of the complete equality = sameness of all the races. It was rather based on the belief that however real and inherant the racial differences were, slavery remained an abomination, particularly in a country founded on the ideal of equality before the law, as America had been. (The notion that Jefferson’s Declaration of Independence preached equality of abilities in all men is complete balderdash, otherwise known as a bald faced leftist/marxist inspired lie.)

    So this suggestion of yours chicnoir that it was only or almost only the Quakers among northern religious types that opposed slavery on moral grounds in the preiod leading up to the civil war is wholly and completely FALSE.

    It’s a lot closer to the truth to say that it was opposition to slavery in one form or another was the dominant religious/moral cause of the north in the period before the civil war. Now don’t misunderstand. Most people hemmed and hawed. It was a very inconvenient moral imperative and dilema. THe South had been treatening to withdraw from the Union before there was a Union over this very issue and had kept threatening throughout the history of the country up to the Civil War. A large part of American politics prior to the Civil War involved compromising and dancing around this issue. The North kept trying strategems that would lead to the phasing out of slavery, while the South kept resisting and avoidng them, but agreeing to not EXTENDING slavery west. The trouble came when not extending it would mean that the balance of power in the Senate would shift towards those hostitle to slavery, and hence spell it’s doom.

    That’s exactly why the South ceded following the election of Lincoln, who though he didn’t seek to abolish slavery (and hence the Union) overnight, was adamently opposed to letting any more states at all, even on a “one for the north, one for the south” basis become slave states in the Senate.

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  284. on September 25, 2008 at 3:49 am Comment_For_The_Stupid

    ****
    If it’s President Obama, he’ll probably propose increasing taxes on big business AND the middle class. In which case he’ll be ceremonially lynched by the corporate media-industrial establishment.
    ****
    Laura Bush just threw Sarah Palin under the bus.

    “You know, that’s not been her role. But I think she is a very quick study, and fortunately John McCain does have that sort of experience.”

    Asked if she thought Palin’s resume included sufficient foreign policy experience, Bush said, “Of course she doesn’t have that.”

    Would anyone here care to guess why Bush would be helping Obama?

    Would anyone care to guess why, when it didn’t look like Obama was gonna make it Wall Street went insane and asked for 700 billion dollars RIGHT NOW!

    They’ve had years of Bushee to get their money. Why the sudden need for NOW.

    Really, why?

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  285. […] It ignored a fundamental principle of human nature — when you shield someone from the consequences of his failures, he is more likely to repeat the same mistakes. The fact that government bears such a huge […]

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