How To Screw Up A Date

I’ve received inside info about a second date gone bad from a female party who shall remain anonymous. I post it here to illustrate for the men reading what *not* to do on a date. I found the scenario described by Anonymous Girl a textbook example of the egregious dating fouls committed by the typical beta.

******

Had my second date last night. we had a lovely dinner, good conversation, albeit he seemed a bit manic to get his points across.

I can’t believe in this day and age there are still guys who take girls out on dinner dates. Please. Dinner is what your girlfriend cooks you. If you’re stuffing food in your mouth, you’re not charming her with your words or tonguing her down. Dinner dates = contrived ambience = uncomfortable pressure = killing the sexy vibe. And speaking with urgency is a major beta giveaway. Betas seeking approval always try to cram as many of their thoughts into a conversation as possible, hoping that one of the conversational threads and/or embarrassing personal vignettes will impress the girl and lead to intimacy. Frantic speed talking = beta. Slow laconic conversation where every word has the weight of an advancing glacier = alpha.

as the night wore on, i had trouble taking him seriously. he has 3 [dorky types of clothing] he writes about on fbook, he joked they were bigger than obama. he wore one last night. i know it’s a joke, but he is vain.

pretty quickly, his [occupational] addiction/cliquey [occupation] thing began grating on my nerves. he insisted on making a phone call outside the restaurant, he believes it’s a cardinal sin to do it in the restaurant. he had thoughtfully made reservations at another restaurant in case this one was full but then made a point of telling me how appreciative the other place was when he cancelled the reservation. ??

I’ve included this bit to show you how many hoops a girl expects a man to jump through, without his knowing ahead of time just what those hoops entail. This is an elaborate stained-glass window into the mental 463 bullet point checklist that girls carry with them every time they meet a potential suitor. As men, we hardly comprehend this need of women to judge every insignificant and irrelevant detail, and thinking too hard about this will cause great internal confusion and manifest as a terrible neediness to “win her over” on dates.

While the actions of the guy above aren’t the stuff of 100% coolness, viewed in the proper perspective he didn’t do anything that would warrant expulsion from the society of normal human beings. This makes a lot of guys resentful of women and their fickle standards. Forget about it. The good news: If you run tight game, you don’t have to worry about meeting her bullet points. She’ll excuse away minor idiosyncracies as long as you are turning her on.

when the charcuterie plate arrived heaped with blood sausage and other alien delicacies like broccoli/cauliflower hybrids he whispered, ‘and so it begins’ in my ear and kissed my hair, nauseating.

And then there are the non-minor idiosyncracies. I can’t believe a guy can make it through decades of life and not know this would creep out a woman. Leaning in after the blood sausage arrives and whispering “and so it begins” in her ear while kissing her hair is not sexy, though I bet he concocted this putatively James Bond-esque scenario in his head in a thrill of devilish gusto and was eager to try it out in real life.

Timing: Lesser Beta.
Execution: Greater Omega.
Intent: Greater Beta.

I do give him points for boldness, however maladroit.

last night he took his glasses off and was sort of slouching in the booth – i think he was trying to cue me to do something.

Funny. A lot of guys think slouching is sexy, that it highlights the aloofness girls love so much. More often than not, slouching shows a guy who can’t sit up straight. If you’ve already established your alpha cred, you can slouch and seem coolly unperturbed. If you’re in betaland, your slouching will look like the posture of a broken, dispirited man. If he was attempting to nonverbally signal readiness for a BJ, slouching is a half-assed way to go about it. I recommend approaching naked, fully erect, a few inches from her face until she goes cross-eyed. Preferably in a crowded restaurant.

i put my fur on and said i had to go home, work tomorrow. by now there was something vaguely passive aggressive in the air that really spurred me on to think of myself. i payed for half the meal. now i wonder: if i had been more physical, would he have payed for the entirety?

When betas feel sexually thwarted it comes out as passive aggressive weakness. An alpha knows to keep a cool head and refrain from letting his frustration bubble to the surface, where it can poison any future possibility of his date setting him up with one of her hottie friends.

It’s interesting to note that girls make the connection between money and physical escalation. Lesson: Flip the script. If you pay for a girl’s drinks, don’t push her for the kiss. And vice versa: If she gets physical with you, don’t start paying for her drinks as reward. Conspicuous enticement is anhedonic.

when we got outside he said, ‘do you mind?’ standing like four feet away from me. i’m like, ‘do you mind what?’ he kissed me, big warm kiss. it was all of 2 seconds. he lept back and complained that it was like a ’17th century kiss’ – and on and on about how bad it was. i gave him a pity hug and hailed a cab with the other arm. he murmured something about liking my fur. it actually really hurt my feelings. his civility ended in the restaurant and then he pulled the claws out. way too much insecurity for a second date.

“it actually really hurt my feelings.” Negs work!

It just goes to show how even ostensibly smart guys can have zero concept of game.  “Do you mind?”?!?  Oh no that won’t do.  Major DLV.  *IF* a man is going to ask for a kiss, the term of art is “would you like to kiss me”, a la Mystery style.  Then you have your followup answers ready: If she says “yes”, go for it.  “Maybe”, say “Let’s find out” and go for it.  “No”, say “Well, I didn’t say you COULD. You just had that look on your face.”

But the kiss question is moot. It’s best to simply lean in when the moment is right and bust a move. No words exchanged.

As if the hole wasn’t deep enough, the guy emailed her the next morning to fully display for public humiliation and my wicked amusement whatever shreds of betatude he neglected to air out during the date.

Him: That had to be the worst kiss ever.  I give it my lowest rating; one star, plus a thumbs down. Still, for the sake of my ego (which is not too enthusiastic about sexual rejection), the chaste kiss is better than getting the cheek. Nevertheless, I had fun.  I think you are trill.

This is straight out of cocky/funny game. Except he did it all wrong. You’re not supposed to tell the girl her kiss was terrible, you’re supposed to rate it a “7, but i think with practice you could get up to an 8, or a 9 even”. And you have to do it in person, with a sly grin, not over email the next morning when the moment has long passed! What an amateur. Then he lowered his value further by admitting he was sexually rejected.

Maxim #75: If you get sexually rejected, don’t admit it to yourself, and especially don’t admit it to the girl.

And what does ‘trill’ mean? Sounds vaguely LARPer-ish.

Back to Anonymous Girl:

he hurt my feelings. i emailed him back – told him i’m not a restaurant and that he should ‘work it out.’ i guess these are the perils of the dating world! what a weirdo.

ps it should be noted i was complimentary throughout the entire evening, on the shirt, the restaurant, his writing, his family sagas…i guess he could smell that i wasn’t INTO him though and decided to dive bomb the entire experience in retaliation — gay.

Divebombing is the spurned id unleashed. Closers can afford to divebomb; betas cannot. If you sense that your date isn’t INTO you, then the best thing to do is say you had a nice time, wish her good luck finding someone, and leave. Don’t make a production out of it. Expressively minimalist is the alpha way when handling rejection. Vengeance is ecstatically thrilling from a position of power, but cringingly self-defeating from the vantage point of a cornered pig ego-pricked and bleeding beta all over the ground.

Strategically, I have a hard time blaming this guy for the failure of this courtship. There were other forces he was unaware of that conspired against his succeeding. Tactically, though, he was a complete fuck-up. His is the classic case of a congenital beta overreaching in a spazzy attempt at grasping the alpha mantle, landing a flurry of off-target blows, only to dissolve in a mudpuddle of piglet squeals when things didn’t go his way.





Comments


  1. on November 26, 2008 at 12:48 pm ironrailsironweights

    Unless things have changed drastically in the past 10 or 15 years, there is nothing wrong about going to dinner on the second date. It would be a bit much for a first date, but not for the second.

    Also, commenting at all on the quality of a kiss, in an e-mail no less, sounds just plain weird.

    Peter

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  2. Dinner dates = contrived ambience = uncomfortable pressure = killing the sexy vibe.

    And spending money better spent on booze. What a fucking waste…

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  3. Agreed on dinner being a waste of time. No dinner until F close minimum. And even then dinner should be for its own sake, not to try and get anything.

    Sounds like the guy talked about himself a lot, he should be (if he had some clue) trying to get things out of her and put her in the correct frame of mind, if possible. Or he should be joking around, or both.

    He wasn’t very congruent; a knight at dinner, and a rogue after. I think this makes anyone suspicious.

    re: trill, urbandictionary has this to say:

    An adjective used in hip-hop culture to describe someone who is considered to be well respected, coming from a combination of the words “true” and “real”.

    What a gangsta!

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  4. You did a great job on this one, brother. Nothing to even add. Hope some guys get some help out of it.

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  5. Sometimes I behave like this guy and still get laid with good looking girls. Explain that.

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  6. “he murmured something about liking my fur.”

    Sounds like something Peter would say after a date that’s gone well.

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  7. You’re a fucking idiot, Roissy… and you’re headed for a very bad end… jail or constant litigation.

    The reason that all the women you know are worthless pigs is… you are a fucking worthless pig.

    You’re just blaming your own problems on women.

    You are living in hell, moron, and that hell is of your own making.

    Exposing your stupidity on the internet is the dumbest thing that you are doing. These morons who are egging you on to ever greater asshole heights… well, they’re even dumber that you.

    Go find something to do with your life, idiot.

    Like


  8. Sounds like someone has got a case of the “Bitters.”

    Like


  9. Found a link to Shouting Thomas here:

    Like


  10. Kind of surprised to see such vitriolic anger inspired by such an innocuous post. This is good, classic Roissy.

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  11. “I can’t believe in this day and age there are still guys who take girls out on dinner dates.”

    “Dinner Dates” are mad wack.

    Meeting a girl at a fly Restaurant you have on lock = Dope move.

    Eat at the bar, have some cocktails, some Red, have the bartender prop you out, have the owner come by and say what up, have them bring you some off menu tapas…..

    Do this and you will never have second dates. You can close by the time you finish your jamon serrano….

    – MPM

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  12. It’s best to simply lean in when the moment is right and bust a move. No words exchanged.

    A huuuuuge advantage for knowing when to go for the kiss is being able to recognize when a girl is looking at your lips. The triangular gaze. When I catch a girl doing it, I either do the Mystery question or just go for it. If she says no or turns away, I gently bust her on it, “Oh, I saw you looking at my lips.” Either way you get an opportunity to demonstrate your social intuition. Major DHV. I often get a response like, “I would make out with you, but I don’t do PDA” or something of the sort.

    Like


  13. Last sentence should read:
    Even if denied, which is not often, I often get a response like, “I would make out with you, but I don’t do PDA” or something of the sort.

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  14. The worst dates, though, are movies. You are giving up control of her emotional state to some movie director in Hollywood, and that damn stadium seating gets in the way of you touching her. Loss of control + no touching = flop.

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  15. My first dates, in college, consist of, “hey come over, have a glass of wine with me.” Conversation doesn’t last longer than 20-30 minutes. Set the date for 8 on a weekend night, because girls are whores, and they won’t set aside a night of partying for you. As are you – if she doesn’t sleep over, you go out and bring another girl back.

    Then you serve the leftover wine to the girl you haul back at 1 AM. This will boost your ego more than the sex. Especially if she brought the wine.

    Insulting the kiss – weird.
    Telling her how to kiss – appropriate.

    Like


  16. “Especially if she brought the wine.”

    I like your kind of thinking, Basil. You don’t need alcohol to have a good time, but I’ve never had a bad time with it.

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  17. “and so it begins” – I’m using that on my next date. Awesome. Hard to believe a grown straight man would actually admit being a food critic, as his profession.

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  18. “Especially if she brought the wine.”

    99% of girls can’t pick out a dope bottle to save their lives.

    But if she worked at the French Laundry, well, then you are in luck.

    Even better if she brings over E-tabs. Or blow.

    – MPM

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  19. Roissy,

    Did her mental 463 point checklist only come into play after he proved himself to be a dick?

    I wonder if she was consciously noting these deficiencies through each step of the night, or, after the bombing, went through her memory and fished out every negative thought as a way to further justify/rationalize her dislike for him.

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  20. “And so it begins” — you have no idea.

    It’s sad that his only options are women who refer to it as “the charcuterie plate.”

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  21. Roissy,
    Good post-mortem analysis. 100% on Busting A Move; if you have to ask for anything, you are NOT the Man, and should pack up and go home.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  22. ‘and so it begins…’ well I guess he could have busted out with ‘There can be only one…’

    I love the straight anger that your posts bring out in people.
    Big ups.

    Like


  23. “when the charcuterie plate arrived heaped with blood sausage and other alien delicacies like broccoli/cauliflower hybrids”

    That sounds like something out of Borat. She left out if they were “cunningly arranged”…

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  24. After reading 78% of your post, roissy, all I can say it must suck to be you.

    Like


  25. “It’s best to simply lean in when the moment is right and bust a move. No words exchanged.”

    Exactly, you should not ask for a kiss… ever… you just go for it , even if the girls fights it you keep doing your thing until the time she bites off your thongue or yells “pooooliceee” then… you stop.. and run.

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  26. Ah. Sara’s been sipping the Hater-Aid again…

    Salaam
    Mu

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  27. This was very useful. I prefer analysis of game-gone-wrong than the antics of pure & gameless betas.

    ‘If you get sexually rejected, don’t admit it to yourself’ – I love it. Kidding yourself is an underappreciated art, it should be taught in school.

    Like


  28. The oddest thing about Shouting Thomas’ comment, other than the fact that he apparently believes that whatever Roissy is doing is somehow an imprisonable offense, is that he chose such a tepid and mellow post to vent his rage upon.

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  29. Divebombing is the spurned id unleashed.

    very true, but the funny thing is that this entire site is the spurned id unleashed.

    Anyway, I love dinner dates, mainly because I love fancy dinners and checking out new restaurants. Plus, if a woman can’t keep me interested for 2 hours of conversation then there’s no point.

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  30. “The government’s theory in the Lori Drew case is that it is a federal crime to intentionally violate the Terms of Service on a website, and that it becomes a more serious crime — a felony rather than a misdemeanor — if the Terms of Service are violated to further a criminal or tortious act. The tortious act the government alleged is intentional infliction of emotional distress, which in this case was alleged to have led to Meier’s suicide.”

    From the Volokh Conspiration website. http://www.volokh.com/

    Roissy, you worthless asshole, have you read the Terms of Service of your weblog provider?

    When do you plan to take down that post, moron?

    As I said, it’s probably already too late. It’s cached all over the web.

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  31. For better or for worse, dozens of forums and blogs have already linked to the Sherdog thread that originally posted the pictures – do you honestly think the government is going to bring criminal cases against all of them? If so, then you’re absolutely out of your mind; the only reason why the Lori Drew case went to court at all was because the woman directly bullied and harassed the girl over Myspace for a considerable length of time. In any case, she was cleared of all felonies just today.

    Posting pictures for mockery is as old as the internet (Mehir, Numa Numa, Star Wars kid, and tens of thousands of others that didn’t take off), and yet there has not one prosecution for this, ever.

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  32. MQ – agreed… as someone who loves trying new, off-the-beaten-path restaurants, and having friends who only want to eat shitty chain food at Chili’s or Cheesecake Factory, I love taking dates on dinner, mostly for my own sake. Activity dates, like Roissy suggested a long while ago, work best for date #1, or a trip to the local (not Starbucks!) coffee house.

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  33. Zarathustra,

    The link is actually to a blog run by Drew’s attorney.

    I suggest that you read the comments.

    Roissy’s conduct is, in my opinion, even more damnable than Drew’s. Whether it reaches the status of a chargeable offense, I don’t know. Sooner or later, the people he’s defamed will get around to him.

    Roissy has deliberately chosen to ridicule and defame people he doesn’t even know because of their physical appearance. Drew at least had some sort of bitch against the girl she was persecuting.

    Roissy is such a low life fucking piece of shit that he does it for sheer sadistic pleasure.

    This blog has ceased to be just an embarassment. As I said, Roissy is headed for a well deserved fate of constantly fighting for his life against the law. Hell, I’m old enough to have seen plenty of assholes like Roissy.

    They all got what was coming to them. So will this chump.

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  34. Presenting fat and ugly people up for public humiliation… who would do that? The only way Shouting Thomas could be this pissed off is if he’s got a heifer for a wife.

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  35. Well that link didn’t work, but I linked to NBC’s The Biggest Loser.

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  36. Ah. Sara’s been sipping the Hater-Aid again…

    Where roissy is concerned I see no reason to stop. He loves it anyway.

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  37. So, Seeking Alpha,

    How much room did Mommy give you in the basement?

    This blog is a pathetic display of losers and jack-off artists.

    Why don’t you fucking morons do youselves a favor and go away? Roissy, why don’t you do us all a favor a shut the fuck up?

    Seeking Alpha, let’s see a picture of you. Post it here, scumbag.

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  38. As I said, Roissy is headed for a well deserved fate of constantly fighting for his life against the law.

    Oh God, I just about choked on Laura’s Wholesome Junk Food reading this. cant…. stop…. laughing….

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  39. As I said, Roissy is headed for a well deserved fate of constantly fighting for his life against the law.

    Oh God, I just about choked on Laura’s Wholesome Junk Food reading this. cant…. stop…. laughing….

    Like


  40. Thomas – you used to comment here and even asked Roissy for advice. And now this. It’s not like he changed his style between then and now. So what’s up?

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  41. Damn Shouting Thomas, why so angry?

    I’m 22 and my parents sub-let a room in my house that they use when they want to stay in Connecticut instead of their apartment in New York City and I’m not stupid enough to post a picture on a blog as controversial as this, but I’m handsome enough that your point isn’t valid.

    What’s with the anger though, seriously? Did I touch a nerve bringing up Karaoke Queen? You’re an old dude… no one cares if your wife is fat or not. We only judge young people here (and old single women who like to pretend they’re still young).

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  42. I can tell that many here are in deep need of some real wisdom. Alas, Sara has let things get out of hand, but have no fear, I am with you always..

    Nobody need to be anybody else. Just be yourself! Show some respect to your life. Respect yourself, love yourself, because unless you respect yourself you will not respect anybody else in the world. If you cannot even respect YOUR life, how can you respect anybody else’s? You can pretend, but pretension is not truth and it is not liberating. Truth liberates, pretension creates a bondage around you. It becomes an imprisonment–and one HATES imprisonment.

    Everybody has to create his own footpath. There are no superhighways towards truth, only footpaths, and they too are not ready-made, available; you have to walk and create them. You have to search for truth and in your very search you create the path. The path is not already there so that you can simply go to truth. The search for truth is an immense adventure. Each moment is in for a great surprise.

    Rossy’s “methods” attempt to remove the surprises. Roissy’s methods are for cowards–cowards who may get a lot of anal sex, but cowards nonetheless.

    Bye for now.

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  43. seeking alpha

    I’m handsome enough that your point isn’t valid.

    You’re serious?

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  44. So, Seeking Alpha, you are beating off in Mommy’s basement!

    Let’s see the picture shithead.

    At you age, I was living in my own apartment in San Francisco.

    You are a ludicrous little whack-off artist.

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  45. You’re serious?

    Like


  46. Seeking, I *am* a “heifer” of the semi activist sort, and I don’t have a problem with Roissy exercising his freedom of speech, especially since he’s not too much of an asshole to allow the posting of dissenting opinions.

    Even if he did censor comments that disagreed with his opinion, his posting what he has to say here in no way prevents me or anyone else from posting elsewhere.

    Whoever likes can take the same photos and use them as an example of the fact that like I’ve said many times, there’s a lid for every pot. So people shouldn’t be down on themselves about looks.

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  47. His point was that we’re all a bunch of ugly losers in our parents basement so who are we to point fingers.

    I’d guess that in most cases, that’s not true. It isn’t in mine.

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  48. Oh, and Thomas, I can’t speak for others, but I have a full length photo of my fat ass self on the index page of my personal homepage.

    I was asked by Roissy, not to show my photo here, or to replace it with one of an attractive woman. I’ve honored his request.

    So with this post is a one time only link to my site. Enjoy 🙂

    Like


  49. I quote:
    “To be blunt, Kurkova looks like a fag hag. I’m not fond, either of blond hair with black roots. The rug should match the curtains, if you get my drift.”

    Shouting Thomas, are your comments so different from Roissy’s? Go Troll some place else.

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  50. Yes, Seeking Alpha, that’s precisely my point.

    You are a fucking loser beating off in Mommy’s basement.

    In fact, I’d say that’s the basic profile of readers of this site.

    Congratulations scumbags!

    Now that we know what kind of trash we’re dealing with, I’ll say goodbye.

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  51. Shouting – You’re too angry to read straight. I live in my own house that I pay for. This anger isn’t good for a guy your age. It’s Thanksgiving Eve! Go have a beer and relax. As much as I’d love to keep poking the angry bear through the cage and laughing, I’m done with work and leaving. Enjoy your turkey.

    Nicole – Good for you that you’re active. Seriously. As long as you have self-confidence and your health, I don’t think anyone here would begrudge you your weight or your happiness. They may not date you, but then again, I’d guess you wouldn’t want to date superficial status-chasers like us either.

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  52. on November 26, 2008 at 5:33 pm Patrick Bateman

    Dinner dates can work if you sit next to each other and share a couple of dishes.

    I fear I may have fucked up a date last week. I had good game but I probably did a bad job of hiding my delight when she said
    “I would give up my voting rights for the return of chivalry.”

    Now that shit got my mangina wet. That’s the type of girl you take home to mom. I’ll check in with her after the holiday. I’ve always got a couple of projects in the works anyway.

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  53. “I would give up my voting rights for the return of chivalry.”

    She’s a keeper.

    Like


  54. PA

    Thanks for the “Cougar Courage” link??? My life is a little less fucked up than that, but I do have the exact green leather sofa the boys mom was lounging on during the dramatic bar payback phone call scene. That takes care of my “realty” TV needs for the next decade. Thanks!

    Like


  55. Bateman,

    Your nine-ish girlfriend is still living in zombie-like obliviousness, or have you broken up with her? It’s a cinch that doormat material like that would never be the initiator of a breakup.

    Like


  56. Shouting Thomas is appropriately named.

    If you’re going to make a post like that, as least make some points, rather than vent anger like the spoiled teenage girl whose dad bought her the wrong color car for her 16th birthday.

    You’ve been on the website for a while as far as I can tell. What personally set off your trigger? It’s a little late to start your moral crusade now, unless you care to explain yourself.

    Like


  57. Seeking, that’s just the thing…if one is able to set aside their self pity, it’s fairly easy to deal with the fact that not everybody on earth is going to like you. It’s something many people say, but few people actually understand.

    Nobody enjoys being told no, and nobody likes not being able to have something. A healthy person accepts this though, and this is one of the baby steps to greatness…the ability to empathize with, but not absorb other people’s issues.

    All kinds of good stuff happens when people get it. One of them is to learn the difference between non preference and contempt, and contempt and real malice.

    When I get in front of a group of people to speak or to sing, I’m not worried about whether or not they think I’m too fat to perform. When I have a meeting with someone who’s going to buy my crafts or hire my braiders for a festival, I’m not worried about whether or not they think I’m fat then either. I won’t even worry about my personal fatness when a friend and I start agenting exotic dancers.

    …because it’s not relevant. If people do things or behave in a way that their looks or even their status isn’t relevant, then lo and behold, the impression they give others is better looking and higher status.

    That’s partly what game is about…not screwing yourself. It’s putting things in the proper context, and seeing things in proportion.

    My argument with most PUA’s is that they often put alot of study into getting something they don’t really want, or behave in ways that they can’t consistently because they don’t have the natural equipment for a particular angle. That seems to be the guy mentioned in this post’s problem. He didn’t select well, didn’t behave consistently, and didn’t sell himself as worthy on the basis of the ways that he really is.

    Dinner dates, I agree, should never be first dates, at least not if the woman is under 45, or food is specifically one of their shared hobbies or occupations. Feeding someone is also an intimate, nurturing act that nowadays, in all frankness, you can’t be sure if a woman really deserves until you know her better.

    So many things were wrong about that night, but in my opinion, the main thing was that it was the wrong woman. He needed to be out with someone more easygoing, worldly, and quirky herself, who found him attractive to begin with.

    Like


  58. Just be yourself!

    Ah, yes, the old chestnuts. Bad dating advice from females that never dies.

    Like


  59. Shouting Thomas was carrying his bitch-fest over from the previous post about the omega guy with his bride. I guess he thought no one was reading him there anymore, so he’d bring it here where it’s out of context. Hopefully, when he said goodbye he meant it.

    Like


  60. Be yourself

    I am who I decide to be at any given moment. Who you are is not static or absolute.

    Like


  61. To echo T.’s comments: bang up job on this one Roissy. Very nice breakdown.

    A few comments:

    I can’t believe in this day and age there are still guys who take girls out on dinner dates. Please.

    This can be a social class issue. In certain environs, the dinner date thing can be construed as a seductive event and in certain cultures, almost a requirement. The lower on the socioeconomic ladder you go however, the more such displays are seen as “putting on airs” and tryhard. Beta. If you don’t normally go to such restaurants as part of your normal routine, you probably shouldn’t go to one on a first date.

    as the night wore on, i had trouble taking him seriously. he has 3 [dorky types of clothing] he writes about on fbook, he joked they were bigger than obama. he wore one last night. i know it’s a joke, but he is vain.

    ???

    Peacocking?

    pretty quickly, his [occupational] addiction/cliquey [occupation] thing began grating on my nerves. he insisted on making a phone call outside the restaurant, he believes it’s a cardinal sin to do it in the restaurant. he had thoughtfully made reservations at another restaurant in case this one was full but then made a point of telling me how appreciative the other place was when he cancelled the reservation. ??

    A little bit tryhard on his part, but I have to agree somewhat with another commenter who wondered if this is all just backward rationalizing by the girl for not liking the guy to begin with. Depending on his demeanor, there is nothing *necessarily* wrong with being passionate about one’s work or having personal standards of decorum and class. It seems rather snarky of her to point it out.

    When a girl likes you, she will listen in rapt attention to you recite the alphabet.

    While the actions of the guy above aren’t the stuff of 100% coolness, viewed in the proper perspective he didn’t do anything that would warrant expulsion from the society of normal human beings. This makes a lot of guys resentful of women and their fickle standards. Forget about it.

    It’s not hard to be when they are as fickle as you note, or when they never respond honestly in all their Cosmo interviews about what they like in a guy. Instead, it’s Hello’s “je ne sais quoi” in public — and their 463 bullet points in private when she’s trashing the guy to her girlfriends.

    But this does underscore something else. Urbanization is accelerating the evolution of sexual selection to the point that Mr. Wholesome Midwestern Boy will get chewed up and spat out when he encounters the modern woman who will judge him on everything from how slickly he handles the doorman at a club to how he talks himself out of a parking ticket.

    In this sense, a woman’s need in prehistoric times for a caveman who understood the obstacles and dangers of the savannah environment has evolved to where she selects for men who can navigate the rapidly changing social mores of the modern world, as your girl above makes clear.

    Dudley Do Rights need not apply. (Even though women will still sing his praises).

    I can’t believe a guy can make it through decades of life and not know this would creep out a woman. Leaning in after the blood sausage arrives and whispering “and so it begins” in her ear while kissing her hair is not sexy, though I bet he concocted this putatively James Bond-esque scenario in his head in a thrill of devilish gusto and was eager to try it out in real life.

    Nah, just bad timing on his part.

    I use the “and so it begins” right before I slip the tip in — said in Gandalf voice with arched brow. 😉

    Funny. A lot of guys think slouching is sexy, that it highlights the aloofness girls love so much. More often than not, slouching shows a guy who can’t sit up straight. If you’ve already established your alpha cred, you can slouch and seem coolly unperturbed. If you’re in betaland, your slouching will look like the posture of a broken, dispirited man.

    EXCELLENT point. I see some dudes taking the Brando thing way too far. Hell, I used to do it myself. Gotta have some class.

    If you sense that your date isn’t INTO you, then the best thing to do is say you had a nice time, wish her good luck finding someone, and leave.

    Or make her a pivot and swing to her friends.

    [snip rest of spectacular post]

    Well done, sir. I await your Houellebecq analysis.

    Like


  62. G Manifesto:

    Even better if she brings over E-tabs. Or blow.

    BTDT, but don’t you consider that poor sportsmanship?

    Like


  63. on November 26, 2008 at 6:31 pm ironrailsironweights

    For today’s pre-holiday tasty delight, a n especially long and colorful GNP. Bon appetit!

    Like


  64. Mu’Min:

    Ah. Sara’s been sipping the Hater-Aid again…

    Sipping? She mainlines that shit.

    Like


  65. “and so it begins”

    I would say this instead:

    You and I
    I know that we can wait
    And I swear, I swear it’s not a lie girl
    Tomorrow may be too late
    You, you and I girl
    We can share a life together
    It’s now or never
    And tomorow may be too late

    Like


  66. Shouting Thomas:

    Roissy is such a low life fucking piece of shit that he does it for sheer sadistic pleasure.

    This blog has ceased to be just an embarassment. As I said, Roissy is headed for a well deserved fate of constantly fighting for his life against the law. Hell, I’m old enough to have seen plenty of assholes like Roissy.

    They all got what was coming to them. So will this chump.

    It’s not true that Roissy will run afoul of the long arm of the law. I also rather doubt that any of this here will get back to the couple in question.

    What IS true however, is that no matter how much you yell, no matter if you manage to shut down sites like this, you’d best believe that the sort of thoughts expressed here are everpresent among the majority of the population.

    Even among the decent people.

    The only difference is the decent people smile wanly and proffer warm-fuzzies before quickly exiting and slamming the door shut behind them, leaning against the wall panting as they thank whatever God may be that they are NOTHING LIKE THOSE PEOPLE AND OH PLEASE DON’T EVER LET MY CHILDREN OR FRIENDS BE LIKE THAT.

    And the couple in question will finish their pitiful lives in relative obscurity with no justice or reward.

    “Grab a kleenex for this one…cause there’s no God and your idiotic human ideals are laughable! Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Heh.” – Bender

    Like


  67. Patrick Bateman,
    reverse it, and it sounds like something I’d say – stare at her with a slight, devilish smirk (as in the Rhett Butler clip), “you’d give up the right to vote in a second for the chance to be with a real man.” She’ll ask if you’re that man, give an ambiguous answer.

    Like


  68. PA:

    Thomas – you used to comment here and even asked Roissy for advice. And now this. It’s not like he changed his style between then and now. So what’s up?

    Must be whatever zombie-virus that took hold of PatrickH.

    I expect those two to return at some point in the future, shaking their canes at us whippersnappers.

    Like


  69. Sara:

    Nobody need to be anybody else. Just be yourself! Show some respect to your life. Respect yourself, love yourself, because unless you respect yourself you will not respect anybody else in the world. If you cannot even respect YOUR life, how can you respect anybody else’s? You can pretend, but pretension is not truth and it is not liberating. Truth liberates, pretension creates a bondage around you. It becomes an imprisonment–and one HATES imprisonment.

    Everybody has to create his own footpath. There are no superhighways towards truth, only footpaths, and they too are not ready-made, available; you have to walk and create them. You have to search for truth and in your very search you create the path. The path is not already there so that you can simply go to truth. The search for truth is an immense adventure. Each moment is in for a great surprise.

    I think that’s the advice David Alexander lives by, and fat lot of good that’s done him.

    In all seriousness however, what you quote above is more applicable to *women*.

    Women are the ones who want — nay, need — for it all to “just happen”, like it does in the movies. They want their happy accidents, meaningful coincidences and whatnot. As men and seducers, we realize there is no Cupid making these things miraculously occur. *We* make these things happen. *We* provide the “magic”. So it is necessary for us men to be aware of our actions and the impressions we are making on the minds of our prey…er…I mean lovers.

    Sara, we are the magicians who do the hard work while you ladies are the audience who will fuck us for it.

    So it is, so it’s always been.

    Like


  70. Yeah, I don’t get what got up Pat’s knickers. It came out of nowhere and was out of proportion with anything that was posted here. He started sounding like a bitch with a hormonal imbalance. A shame. Hope he gets better and comes back.

    Like


  71. Yeah, I don’t get what got up Pat’s knickers.

    He’s hatin’ because Clio’s all over my jock.

    Like


  72. Your nine-ish girlfriend is still living in zombie-like obliviousness, or have you broken up with her? It’s a cinch that doormat material like that would never be the initiator of a breakup.

    She’s not a doormat if she’s genuinely happy.

    Like


  73. And there I thought he had a commanding lead over you in winning the Fair One’s affections. He must have choked.

    To choke — commit an unforced error — is beta. Alphas never choke… unless their defiled maidens like it.

    Like


  74. And there I thought he had a commanding lead over you in winning the Fair One’s affections.

    “I’m a driver…I’m a winner…things are gonna change…I can FEEL it…”

    Like


  75. I love how Roissy draws Shouting Thomas into his web…brilliant. Thomas is like the fly buzzing madly in the web, trying to escape while the spider coolly approaches to suck all the life out of his manic victim.

    Of course it makes me wonder if Shouting Thomas is not Roissy himself trying to stir things up here. You never know.

    But if it is not, well Thomas, Roissy has played you brilliantly. You are wining like a balding fat chick who could never get a man except for the biggest losers. Nice win Roissy.

    Like


  76. wining should be whining above.

    Like


  77. If you’re wracked with nerves and insecurities, “be yourself” is bad advice that won’t work. The cliche should really be “accept yourself”. Relaxed, confident people, particularly men, are extremely attractive. Unfortunately women get far more breaks than men for insecurity and emotionalism.

    Looking into a man’s eyes and seeing a real person who’s happy to be who he is is the ultimate aphrodisiac.

    Like


  78. Off topic, but hilarious:

    http://mcsweeneys.net/2008/11/20tucker.html

    Seeking Alpha should especially enjoy it.

    If this is old news to all you political science nerds out there in blogland, bite me.

    Like


  79. hello kitty

    Be yourself is always great advice, though precious few understand what it means. Carry on!

    Like


  80. tupac saidMust be whatever zombie-virus that took hold of PatrickH.

    I expect those two to return at some point in the future, shaking their canes at us whippersnappers

    Tupac are you 25<?

    Like


  81. This piece of advice by Roissy:

    “If you sense that your date isn’t INTO you, then the best thing to do is say you had a nice time, wish her good luck finding someone, and leave. Don’t make a production out of it.”

    …….is essentially very good advice.

    If you respect the fact that a woman doesn’t seem into you, ride out the date and be a charming host, enjoy the meal, movie, shopping, event, and politely wish her well knowing she doesn’t want you to call her back. If you attempt to start insulting her and hurt her self-esteem or psychologically wound her, you will have made an enemy out of someone for no good reason. Who knows, six months later she might have a friend that is also atttractive that she can tell “Well I wasn’t that into him, but he was pretty cool though”. If you act like a hurt crybaby, you wont even have that possibility, and she can go and blab about you to many other women, one of whom you might have possibly met and hit it off with otherwise. Keep smiling and be cheerful. The world is YOUR oyster, and everybody else is invited along for the ride. You will consistently attract friends and admirers with this attitute. Being petty is attrractive to no one.

    Its not wise to make uneccessary enemies, trashing your name and reputation all over your town for no good reason. Save that for people who really deserve it, like for ex-wives for instance. Never get that worked up over a woman you have not been sleeping with (and I mean more than once or twice). Time is on your side, not hers. She has a born on date that expires much sooner than yours does.

    Like


  82. @ Tupac – I hadn’t seen this, thanks for the link! I’ll read it tomorrow morning.

    Like


  83. The obligatory David Alexander response…

    Anonymous Girl

    Miss Lemmon?

    I can’t believe in this day and age there are still guys who take girls out on dinner dates.

    Blame TV for showing us years of dinner dates, and in some cases, a lack of creativity or connection with normal humans. Hell, I’d have no idea of what to do for a date if that situation ever developed…

    “I would give up my voting rights for the return of chivalry.”

    She’s a keeper.

    0% of chance of my daughters going to Ivy League schools and becoming upper class, so I’d dump her ass.

    I think that’s the advice David Alexander lives by, and fat lot of good that’s done him.

    Oh come on, I have a non-date girlfriend! 🙂

    She’s not a doormat if she’s genuinely happy.

    Of course, if I said that I was happy as a doormat, you’d claim the opposite…

    Like


  84. I will this WOMAN is a FUCKING QUEEN of the pack:

    Like


  85. I’ve developed more sympathy for men (most men anyway) since finding this blog. Women are an immense pain.

    Like


  86. on November 26, 2008 at 10:12 pm Albion Moonlight

    Yeah, the guy’s over-eagerness made a mess of things, but what is the problem some people have with restaurants?

    I like restaurants. I like them better with an attractive dining partner — whether it’s after we’ve been to bed, whether I have no intention of bedding her, or whatever.

    You should enjoy the whole experience.

    I got over calculating money spent versus sex a long time ago.

    Albion

    Like


  87. “BTDT, but don’t you consider that poor sportsmanship?”

    A fly girl and an E-tab can be a greatest pairing since the jab and the straight right.

    – MPM

    Like


  88. “I like restaurants. I like them better with an attractive dining partner — whether it’s after we’ve been to bed, whether I have no intention of bedding her, or whatever.

    You should enjoy the whole experience.

    I got over calculating money spent versus sex a long time ago.”

    Agreed.

    Eating at a restaurant with a fly girl has many advantages that most do not realize: Better treatment at restaurants, better tables, comped bills.

    But that stuff goes over most peoples heads. Especially people that are “calculating money spent versus sex”.

    Its better just to make more money if you worried about it.

    – MPM

    Like


  89. Well, at least the beta described in the posting was trying … Still, the posting was all too effective. It made me wince: it reminded me of some my own lesser efforts back in the long-ago single days.

    I always thought that the main — and big — downside to putting food and wine at the center of a date was the way they left me groggy afterwards. No matter how good and sexy the food and wine were to consume, no matter how well the banter and flirtation went, afterwards I was rarely in all that much of a mood to fuck.

    Like


  90. he insisted on making a phone call outside the restaurant, he believes it’s a cardinal sin to do it in the restaurant. he had thoughtfully made reservations at another restaurant in case this one was full but then made a point of telling me how appreciative the other place was when he cancelled the reservation. ??

    I’m kinda surprised to see so lenient comments about this paragraph. Backup reservations for the second date?! I guess it could be a rational move to avoid possible inconvenience if you’re going for dinner with friends or a long-term girlfriend. But he did it for the *second date* with this girl, and even went on to rub it in her face. That just screams neediness. “We barely know each other, but I’ve already placed you so high on my list of priorities that I’m spending my time thinking of elaborate plans to maximize the chances of everything running smoothly.” Even if it’s true, you don’t have to announce it with fanfare.

    Tupac Chopra:

    A little bit tryhard on his part, but I have to agree somewhat with another commenter who wondered if this is all just backward rationalizing by the girl for not liking the guy to begin with.

    The stuff about his cell phone etiquette could be rationalizing, but I think the backup reservation thing was a genuine turnoff. Even if the girl has a crush on you, early displays of neediness can be fatal (this is a source of endless frustration for handsome guys with lousy game). For a girl that you’re just trying to win over, the reservation talk can easily be a game-over needy display.

    Like


  91. on November 27, 2008 at 1:29 am Days of Broken Arrows

    As someone who works in media, please let me comment on the legalities of what Shouting Thomas has brought up.

    What Roissy did would qualify as satire, not defamation of character, since he did not know the person and was commenting on a publically-posted photo.

    Satire is considered something outside libel laws. Yet it has to be done to public figures to be legal. When someone puts their photos on the Web, they are making themselves a public figure. Therefore, the kind of satire Roissy did — and it was satire — is legal.

    Like


  92. Off topic, but for all you hopeless romantics out there, WALL-E is a pretty fun movie, I saw it tonight.

    It made me think of Pupu for some reason.

    Maybe it was the whippets.

    Like


  93. G Manifesto:

    A fly girl and an E-tab can be a greatest pairing since the jab and the straight right.

    Yes, you’re right of course. I’ve done my share of eye-wiggling, jaw-clenching anorgasmic sex.

    It’s just, that…all your comments referencing the drug aspect of the game would seem to draw a certain element, or kind of girl — the type who is diven by her most primitive urges — and not even the most *healthy* primitive urges. It’s like attracting the mice in those experiments who push the lever (i.e., your cock) for their treat to be dispensed.

    I would think part of the G philosophy is about distinguishing oneself above the common rabble.

    I’m not judging, btw. Respect.

    Like


  94. Tupac

    Sara, we are the magicians who do the hard work while you ladies are the audience who will fuck us for it.

    Well, a real magician is not doing magic, but is in fact magic itself. Learning tricks is not the same. Learning tricks is jumping through hoops or getting others to, and will eventually be unsatisfying and restrictive. I still say “be yourself” but again say that few do this or even know what it means. Being oneself is not being an insecure asshole. Being ones TRUE self is as magic as it gets.

    I fucked one of those fakers real good. The best he ever had in fact. But alas, the magic was as fake as he is and he’s having to deal with second or third best.

    She’s not a doormat if she’s genuinely happy.

    There is no way in hell that Bateman’s girlfriend is genuinely happy. She’s an average enneagram type 9. Big difference there. The enneagram explains human behavior; completely without regards to gender and personally I find it much more accurate and useful.

    Roissy will probably hate me for messing up the thread again.

    Nines demonstrate the universal temptation to ignore the disturbing aspects of life and to seek some degree of peace and comfort by “numbing out.” They respond to pain and suffering by attempting to live in a state of premature peacefulness, whether it is in a state of false spiritual attainment, or in more gross denial.

    I could be wrong of course. ^_^ Gee, I sure hope so!

    Like


  95. chic:

    Tupac are you 25<?

    No, I’m over 25.

    So, what is it about older men that turns you on, Chic?

    Like


  96. Sara:

    Nines demonstrate the universal temptation to ignore the disturbing aspects of life and to seek some degree of peace and comfort by “numbing out.” They respond to pain and suffering by attempting to live in a state of premature peacefulness, whether it is in a state of false spiritual attainment, or in more gross denial.

    Forget Bateman’s girl, I think you just described the human condition.

    Like


  97. Tupac

    Forget Bateman’s girl, I think you just described the human condition.

    Sure, we all do that at one time or another, but some are much more fixated on “numbing out” than others.

    Like


  98. “I always thought that the main — and big — downside to putting food and wine at the center of a date was the way they left me groggy afterwards.”

    Try eating Sashimi. Make sure you wash it down with tons of Yebisu and Nigori. No need to wack down a huge porterhouse.

    Or eat tapas. The Spanish figured it all out a long time ago.

    “It’s just, that…all your comments referencing the drug aspect of the game would seem to draw a certain element, or kind of girl — the type who is diven by her most primitive urges — and not even the most *healthy* primitive urges.”

    I can see what you are saying. But keep in mind all types of girls do drugs. Drugs are equal opportunity.

    “I would think part of the G philosophy is about distinguishing oneself above the common rabble.”

    Your right. Life is short. Headbuzzes and fly girls is just something I like to indulge in. As much as possible.

    Respect as well.

    – MPM

    Like


  99. I would give up my voting rights for the return of chivalry as well. Voting changes is these days a symbolic gesture that changes nothing. Let men have it and open the door for me.

    Like


  100. G, I’m not a “fly girl”, but I can tell you why I never liked restaurant dates with someone who wasn’t already my boyfriend, even when I was a smaller man with boobs and a vagina.

    Dinner and home with no activity or walkies = guy exchanging a meal for sex = creepy or conservative-judgemental-ass

    A good first date is like an introduction. You should do something that allows you time to talk and enjoy each others’ company. Some pubs or bars aren’t even good for this. It should be someplace you don’t have to yell to speak to one another. A cafe would be nice.

    The second date is when you know a little more who you’re dealing with, and it should be some kind of activity, but one wherein you can still talk to each other, and learn something more about each other.

    Until you know who you’re dealing with, you should also avoid restaurants because escaping a screwed up person is harder in the middle of a meal. I like to be someplace that takes cash so if worse comes to worse, I can put down my share, and jet.

    Like


  101. I can’t believe in this day and age there are still guys who take girls out on dinner dates. Please. Dinner is what your girlfriend cooks you.

    -Roissy

    Seriously, Roissy… How many young (American) women can cook anything that doesn’t come packaged with microwave instructions these days?

    Like


  102. “even when I was a smaller man with boobs and a vagina.”

    Nic, what do you mean by that?

    Welmer,
    In a few hours I’ll make fresh green beans, stuffing and cornbread from scratch.

    Like


  103. Welmer,
    In a few hours I’ll make fresh green beans, stuffing and cornbread from scratch.

    Thanksgiving is one of the few days of the year I do not have to cook (my mom comes to town). Despite having been married and having been in several long-term relationships, I have never had a woman cook for me regularly (past the age of 17, which is about when I started to fend for myself).

    Like


  104. Roissy, excellent post!

    Like


  105. on November 27, 2008 at 6:47 am Patrick Bateman

    sara

    I broke up with her early last month. I handled it quite well.

    Me: You don’t value your time with me as much as you used to.
    Her: (starting to cry)
    Me: This is unacceptable. The only reason I keep this place (our apartment halfway between our schools) is so we can spend time together and if we’re not going to spend time together then there’s no point keeping it. This is over
    Her: (sobbing)

    I cried too over letting her go, but I’m not going to stay with a woman who doesn’t appreciate me. None of this beta male “We can work it out” crying.

    DA
    0% of chance of my daughters going to Ivy League schools and becoming upper class, so I’d dump her ass.

    She’s working on a degree in biology, specializing in genetics. I’ll stick my dick in a retard if she looks like Keira Knightley, but I only date smart girls. Oddly enough, this is essentially what my ex did in undergrad.

    Like


  106. — Even if the girl has a crush on you, early displays of neediness can be fatal (this is a source of endless frustration for handsome guys with lousy game).

    Yeah, that nails my early and mid 20s. The problem wasn’t so much neediness as the fact that I thought that girls I liked are supposed to be treated as “special.” I blame John Hughes movies.

    But with girls I was somewhat indifferent about, game-like behavior came naturally and those girls were all over me. I even had a stalker once.

    This was quite confusing at the time.

    — I would give up my voting rights for the return of chivalry as well.

    As a bonus, you’d be living in a better-run society.

    — How many young (American) women can cook anything that doesn’t come packaged with microwave instructions these days?

    A puzzle: a girl I work with can’t meet a boyfriend in DC. She’s American from ‘flyover,’ mid 20s, a solid 7.5, an 8.5 when she dolls up. Great personality, a bit in the shy side. She’s a rarity in comparison with the average DC woman. The one thing she told me she likes to do when she meets a guy is cook him a dinner. And she’s still single.

    Like


  107. “And she’s still single.”

    PA, there’s a whole mirror-world of modern women’s problems in courtship in that short little anecdote of yours.

    Just as many women say they love “nice guys” who are kind, helpful, and affectionate, but in fact choose bad boys who are none of these things, there are many men who say they like sweet, feminine women (who are pretty too, of course – that goes without saying), but who run from them if they appear too domestic, too feminine, or too interested in marriage and children. And for the same reason: they find such women too unsexual compared to their bad-girl sisters, and they prefer to have their fun before making a commitment to such a woman.

    That’s why women need the female version of Game – The Rules – which (never mind some of the sillier advice the book offers, like not answering phone calls) are concerned with ensuring that a woman does not jump the gun in courtship, seem over-invested in a man too early in a relationship. or seem too eager for marriage. And yes, I know that one of the Rules writers is divorced – but the book only promises to help women get married, not to help them stay that way…

    I expect a dozen male readers will shoot back with angry comments about divorce and child-support payments and alimony to explain why they are reluctant to marry. But from the perspective of some nice girl types, this can seem like a self-fulfilling prophecy: Thanks to their fear of marriage, some men run from domestically-inclined women and then fall for a party-girl and are surprised when she turns out not to be good wife material.

    Something else I’ve noticed is that even a man who is “beta” in youth will often hold out the hope that as he gets older and more successful, he’ll be able to have his pick of the 10 girls. And so he too will avoid attractive and more domesticated women in the expectation of finding sexual perfection.

    Sigh. It seems to me that the young of both sexes often miss the boat – a chance at a happy and stable marriage – in the search for excitement and spurious “experience”.

    Clio

    Like


  108. on November 27, 2008 at 9:29 am ironrailsironweights

    Even if the girl has a crush on you, early displays of neediness can be fatal (this is a source of endless frustration for handsome guys with lousy game).

    Yeah, that nails my early and mid 20s. The problem wasn’t so much neediness as the fact that I thought that girls I liked are supposed to be treated as “special.” I blame John Hughes movies.

    Does this ever ring true. I had the same trouble, and at around the same time (though I don’t blame John Hughes). Thinking back, I cannot even begin to imagine how stupid I could have been, to have thought that acting needy, like some eager little puppy dog, could have possibly been appealing to women. And it wasn’t as if I was in a strong bargaining position to begin with, as my weight (5’10”, 245#s) was definitely a drawback. It’s only in recent years, after I lost 50 pounds, that it’s dawned on me that my weight had been a problem at the time.

    It’s very, very frustrating to realize all the f***ed up retarded things you had done years ago.

    Peter

    Like


  109. That youtube video that someone linked to here earlier on about the spoiled daughter not liking the colour of the car she got as a birthday gift, is that for real? Ilike it when dad tells the son to switch off the camera and he doesn’t but says “it’s off”

    Like


  110. Vladimir,
    The double reservation idea is a good one, but the execution made it a rotten one. He should not have mentioned making a double reservation at all.

    In the event that their first reservation fell through, he would casually mention how he made a second reservation just in case, “I usually make a second reservation just in case, when I go out.” Frame it as typical behavior, and not something done especially for her, and he’ll look clever and foresighted, not to mention experienced.

    “A real gangsta ass nigga don’t flex nuts
    ‘Cuz a real gangsta ass nigga know he got ’em.”

    Like


  111. It seems to me that the young of both sexes often miss the boat – a chance at a happy and stable marriage – in the search for excitement and spurious “experience”.

    Young men in our society are immature. When I visited my native Poland for the first time since childhood at 27, many of my relatives were incredulous that being tall, decent looking, and educated, I was still unmarried. The fact that I had a girlfriend at the time made some think I was immature.

    This is why it seems to me that in our society it works out best when a 32-35 year-old man marries a 23-25 year old woman.

    For the guy, getting drunk at clubs becomes a bore; he hits his stride career-wise and wants stability on the domestic front; and begins to appreciate the feminine qualities of younger women.

    The woman on the other hand, is mature enough to know what she wants but hasn’t had the time to get cynical about love.

    That’s why women need the female version of Game – The Rules

    I agree that some kind of strategizing is important wor young women as well. But to my knowledge, The Rules is about exploiting men, not so much about finding a quality husband… am I correct?

    What would your advice be to my young co-worker?

    (though I don’t blame John Hughes).

    I blame society too. Did I mention that? And the TV after-school specials. And my hen-like female teachers. and the … wait – Jimmy Buffet’s on:

    Some people claim that there is a woman to blame
    But I know
    It’s my own damn fault.

    It’s very, very frustrating to realize all the f***ed up retarded things you had done years ago.

    And no one will ever be the wiser. Polonius’ advice to his son Laertes was pure gold, but that didn’t stop young Hamlet from calling him an old fool.

    Like


  112. Some people claim that there is a woman to blame
    But I know
    It’s my own damn fault.

    Hey, don’t rag on on one of my favourite songs. 😉

    Men aren’t perfect either, and confronted with female bad behaviour, will often tend to blame women for everything that is wrong in their life. Just because women often behave badly doesn’t mean they are to blame for everything. Of course, blaming yourself for everything isn’t right either, but you do have to take some responsibility for your life.

    Like


  113. No raggin’! much wisdom that Jimmy guy speaks.

    Like


  114. OK, time to jump back in here.

    Tupac, you’re funny! And yea, Sara’s a trip alright.

    Patrick, Nicole, excellent points and observations. I’d like to respond to you both if I may.

    Many years ago, long before I knew a Roissy, a Mystery or anyone else along “Game” lines existed, I came to a place of understanding that this would be a long, miserable life for me unless I made some key changes. Like most young men of limited means and virtually no status, I too went through the Valley of Blue Balls and Jilted Lovers, until one day, Everything was Illuminated.

    Tired of getting the same, tired, and INEFFECTIVE bullshit “dating” advice, such as the “just be yourself” mantra, I decided on trying the really crazy idea of actually putting to work some of the same laws of the rest of the physical world to the dating one.

    So, I’d approach dating like I’d approach job hunting, for example. Which meant taking stock-brutally honest stock-of who I was and what I could realistically get.

    This speaks to both Nicole’s comments above about Dinner Date Herb not assessing himself, and by extension his target, properly. As Sun Tzu once famously said, when you know your enemy, you know yourself.

    Roissy puts it another way: please note his sexual marketplace test for both men and women. Though I have some areas of contention w/his test for men-and I’ve stated more than once my occasional areas of disagreement with the man-nevertheless his test is very helpful.

    Because it forces one to be honest w/themselves, and one of the biggest problems not just in dating life but life period, is that of people not being, refusing even, to be honest with themselves.

    If you’re a guy and your barely making a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10, you have no business even thinking about trying to pull 9s and Dimes. You just don’t have the juice to pull it off. There’s something to be said for boldness, thinking big or even thinking out of the box. There’s also something to be said for keeping things in perspective, and crawling before you learn how to sprint.

    So, that’s what I did: I took honest stock of myself, my good points and my not so good points. Then I decided whether I wanted to leave things as is, or whether I wanted to make some changes. There’s great power in making a deliberate decision such as this. Because no one can stop you, either way. You are the Master & Commander of your own Fate.

    I’ve always taken great pride in my work (like Dinner Date Herb, though I’m Blue Collar and would never actually discuss it on a date w/anyone), so I decided to bring a machinist’s precision to the next step: defining in concrete terms what turned me on, and where I could procure such women. So, I sat down and wrote out on a legal pad, a list of this things. Very specific. Detailed, to the letter. Of what turned me on, and what turned me off, in a gal. Looks, manner of dress, speaking patterns, you name it. Once the list was down on paper, it was very easy for me to zero in on exactly what I wanted.

    The next step was how to get it.

    That meant knowing my market, and also being honest w/whether I had to goods to get the job done. Fortunately for me, hardworking Black Men who are self supporting with a good and stable job, who aren’t druggies or alkies or in and out of jail, who don’t have umpteen kids by as many Baby Mommas and are STD free, and who are fairly attractive, are in dangerously short supply in Black America. If anyone doubts this, all they need do is ask any Sista with a pulse. And although Mu’s been known to have quite a few Blancas and Latinas, the clear edge he had among the Sisterhood was that he was a rare commodity, despite the fact that he never went to college.

    Know your Market.

    Then, I went out Women Watching. I would spend hours in places like parks and malls and other public spaces just watching women-of all ages, shapes, colors. Watching them shop, talk to each other, interact w/their mates and so on. Doing this for a few months gave me a great insight into the way women’s body language worked.

    In order to get into a university or college, in order to be hired for a job, in order to even join Al Qaeda, you have to be interviewed. Why not the same for dating?, I asked myself. So, I devised a questionaire.

    During the first date or two, I’d ask a few questions, never more tha five, and depending on the gal I’d switch them up based on their history and background. But one question that I tended to leadoff with was the following:

    Chivalry or Equality: Which do you choose?

    The answer to this question, including the body language when they heard it and when they responded, would determine my course of action from that point on.

    I didn’t really understand it at the time, but I would learn later that I was “qualifying” the lady. LOL

    Oh yea, and dating itself: Mu’Min Protocol #4: Always take first dates to one of Philly’s umpteen dozen Cafes. Preferrably downtown, lots of light-always meet her in the daytime-and lots of people around. This gives the female the feeling of safety and that you’re not trying to jump her bones too soon. Keep the date light and brief, no more than a half hour-a busy man is an important man-and should things go South, its a lot cheaper than a dinner date.

    I have found the following approach I devised to be highly effective. So have several of my Padawans.

    And Roissy and Nicole hit on something else: something like sharing a meal one on one is a very intimate, sexual act. The woman should prepare a meal at her place (or if she’s at his place, there) and they eat together and take things from there. Outings should be just that, outings. Provided my prospects performed well during the cafe interview, we would meet again for other events, carefully orchestrated by me, of course. Women love a thoughtful man.

    Oh, and again Roissy’s right about women not being into you: again, know your market. There is a certain percentage of women who will not like you, period, and it can happen during the date. I wholeheartedly endorse his method for handling that. Being gracious during that time only makes you bigger in her eyes.

    OK, that’s it. Holla back

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  115. Haha. About Jimmy, I mean. In moments of self-reproach, I used to sing that chorus to myself, altered to fit female circumstances.

    As for The Rules’ being directed to exploiting men – no, I don’t think so, although some of them are certainly extreme, from what I understand. I haven’t read the book myself, only seen clips from it, and heard other women discuss it.

    The purpose of The Rules is to help women find a husband. In order to do so, it instructs women to be independent and not needy, on the assumption that this kills new relationships faster than anything else. That’s why the book makes much out of urging women not to be too available, or to return calls immediately (which I think is rude unless you really are busy). The idea is that women who fail at commitment-centred dating do so because they tend to expect too much too soon. They get over-invested in a man, esp. if they sleep with him, and then become clingy, which ruins everything.

    Women who genuinely don’t want committed relationships don’t need to worry about this problem. The advice is intended for those who do.

    I don’t think the advice is any more sinister than Game, in that although it may be manipulative in a sense, its purpose, aside from marriage, is to teach women a certain inner toughness. It boils down to this: if a man can’t give you what you want, let go and don’t waste your time. Meanwhile, not being too available will help you to protect yourself emotionally.

    Clio

    p.s. About 32-35 year old men who are ready for marriage: where is a woman of 22-25 going to meet such fellows? I didn’t when I was that age. I met mainly young men of my own age and up to a few years older, and they wanted to play the field (even the betas, as I said). The older men I met were married already, or else divorced and in no hurry to re-commit themselves. It may be different now that so many people are marrying late.

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  116. “Just as many women say they love “nice guys” who are kind, helpful, and affectionate, but in fact choose bad boys who are none of these things, there are many men who say they like sweet, feminine women (who are pretty too, of course – that goes without saying), but who run from them if they appear too domestic, too feminine, or too interested in marriage and children. And for the same reason: they find such women too unsexual compared to their bad-girl sisters, and they prefer to have their fun before making a commitment to such a woman.”

    As a woman who has dated someone completely immersed in the PUA lifestyle (and spoke more or less in acronyms) I agree with you 1000%. I was hardly asexual, but guys committed to a T to the PUA lifestyle seem to get bored easily and want to sleep with as many women as possible. This isn’t true of all PUAS but quite a lot of them. A lot of the stuff guys here complain about and blame on contemporary feminism is really just age-old battle of the sexes stuff and trying to pin that on just one sex (though women try to as well) is ultimately fruitless.

    “The Rules is about exploiting men, not so much about finding a quality husband… am I correct?”

    PA, read “The Rules” yourself instead of listening to other guys. Some of it quite manipulative, but some of it is basically just a female version of game. Guys hate books like “The Rules” the way women hate Neil Strauss and Mystery books; because they work. It goes into a little (very unsophisticated) evo-psych and declares that feminism has rendered women incapable of snagging a man. Of course anyone who practices the Rules to the absolute letter really will become a manipulative bitch whom no man should marry or commit to; and guys who go overboard with game will become Roissy.

    Roissy recently noted that text messaging will weed out girls who aren’t interested because it is a low-commitment level of communication. More recent dating books I’ve read for women advocate ignoring text messages because it allows a man to get away with being impersonal. It makes me think that the only way this stuff will ever get men and women together is to find someone who’s unsophisticated in urban dating or who is far more interested in you than you are in them. Playing all these games yet ending up alone because everyone is cagey, hard, and expecting perfect lovers who cater to their every whim really makes all these books worthless in the long run.

    “Too strong for too long”

    Like


  117. Watching them shop, talk to each other, interact w/their mates and so on. Doing this for a few months gave me a great insight into the way women’s body language worked.

    You reminded me of a little vignette I had recently. I was on my commuter train, going home. It was crowded, so I was standing, and at a seat next to me was a young couple, looked like college students.

    The girl was about 19, blonde, pretty but not spectacular, looked lazy in manner and a little bitchy. The guy, about 19-20, rubbed me the wrong way immediately. He had that trustfundy, brainy, arrogant look about him. He was scrawny, with facial hair that looked ridiculous on a young boy with medium testosterone levels. He struck me as the type who wears Che t-shirts.

    In any case, being bored, I observed their interaction. They were clearly a couple. But his body language betrayed insecurity in the relationship. Twice, he asked to borrow her cell phone. He made some quick phone call — and even his voice — haughty and tinny at once– got on my nerves.

    His phone calls were quick, and each time the girl held her hand out impatiently to get her phone back. And each time he handed the phone back to her, he leaned awkwardly to kiss her somewhere above her neck. She stiffened and tolerated the kiss each time, but made no welcoming move herself.

    At that point, I no longer found him annoying… I just kind of pitied him. And I continued to casually observed the couple. The train was moving slowly and there was nothing else to do with boredom. She looked up at me once, kind of indifferently — but didn’t look away that quickly when I looked back at her. She even gave a hint of a smile.

    He started looking bored too, and looked up at me – and immediately averted his gaze when I looked back at him. If human males give off pherimonal signals of dominance and submission, his screaed “I’m belly-up!”

    I didn’t do much else, just kind of stood over those two (with tons of other people pressed against me). “Hey, kid” I thought to myself with that boy in mind, “this is what you’re doing wrong.” But what the hell. He will figure it out eventually. And in five years, his long-lost girlie will be some fat, shapeles blonde.

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  118. PA,
    I’m sure this girl has at one point had an indifferent lover. It happens to us to.

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  119. What do you mean, Hello?

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  120. PA,

    well on the bright side.. the guy has time on his side =)

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  121. What you witnessed was a girl who no longer liked her boyfriend and was about to dump him. Guys often decide they’re no longer into their girlfriends and dump them.

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  122. Nevermind. By “indifferent” I thought you meant “mediocre.”

    And in five years, his long-lost girlie will be some fat, shapeles blonde

    This was specifically about that girl. She seemed the type who looks good in the earliest of youth, but her slovenly quality of her manner made her seem the type who gains lots of weight as she gets older.

    Other women are kind of the opposite. Some girls are awkward in their teens and early twenties, but become gorgeous in their late 20s and beyond.

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  123. Guys hate “The Rules”? I must move in different crowds. In NYC media circles, women hated “The Rules.” I semi-stood up for it, because a lot of it seemed to me like traditional common sense. And besides guyz and galz both need to re-learn the basics of courtship. That’s why I think Game is cool too. Anything that helps the sexes connect. The NYC media harpies crapped all over me for making such a case, of course.

    Let’s see: Hello cooks, she likes it when a guy opens the door for her, and she’s smart and funny. Why aren’t more commenters here trying to sweet-talk an email address, or even better, a date out of her?

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  124. Bateman,

    Neither wants to bring up conflicts that they have with the other. Nines are more likely not to want to talk about whatever is bothering them for fear of further endangering the relationship. But Threes also do not want to express their complaints because doing so will risk rejection and may also expose the fragility or even the falseness of their relationship. Nines feel that it is better not to say anything and to let things work out on their own, if that is at all possible. If Threes are heavily invested in having a “perfect marriage” to the outside world, it will be difficult to talk about their unhappiness in the relationship or the frustrations they are feeling.

    I’m guessing you handled your frustration by fucking other women. She is lucky to be rid of you of course. It may take her five agonizing years to figure it out though. (Depending on how long you were together) Such is the brutal grip of female sexual adherence. There is no rhyme or reason to it.

    Often the relationship will continue for a while as if nothing is wrong-even if it is essentially over. Eventually, however, Threes begin to feel unseen and unappreciated, and that the Nine is not really there for them—not really present to the relationship.

    It’s too bad because:

    This is a fairly common pairing. Nines bring enormous support, encouragement, and a sense of pride in the Three’s accomplishments. Threes can feel that with the Nine behind them, they are able to be themselves, explore their potential, and become the best mate, friend, or professional that they can be.

    But you got out with your ego intact and her sobbing! Congratulations! She’ll be the one that got away, but if you’d stayed……who knows? NEXT. ^_^ You have a lot of work to do on yourself, Bateman. You think getting another woman will solve your problems? LOL

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  125. I think guys hate The Rules because they never actually read them, they just read how the media portrayed the book. Since the media is very pro-feminist, they characterized the book badly to prejudice people against it. Feminists hate the book because it’s too traditional. But as a guy who actually read it out of curiosity, I think it is actually great advice for women.

    Like


  126. Why aren’t more commenters here trying to sweet-talk an email address, or even better, a date out of her?

    Heh, I thought the same thing.

    Like


  127. Hello, if you looked at my photo well…imagine be about 20 kg. lighter. When I’m slimmer, I look like a man with boobs.

    I actually like the way I am now looks and feels…not too humongous, but not thin at all. A girlfriend the size I am now wouldn’t be kicked out of my bed. The problem is that I can’t personally stay this size and be healthy, and the fat itself was accumulated due to health problems. Now that those have been solved, I’m losing weight, but along the way I intend to return to my original buffness.

    I’ll never be a skinny girl, but I don’t want to be. My personal ideal could be desribed as “thick off-season fitness model” or “Valkyrie”.

    My reasons for this are that the health problems and the rounder super-feminine figure, though they taught me alot, do not accurately reflect who I am. People thought I was “nicer” than I actually am, before I started to regain my enforcer look, and tried to take advantage of me. Most times they didn’t succeed, but the fact that they try is annoying.

    What pushed me over the line between just losing weight, and the desire to look demonic again, was noting the difference in breakups past and recent. My last bad breakup was delivered from a very safe distance, and the reason for this, I’m told by a mutual friend, is that he feared that I would hurt him.

    I like that. 🙂

    It’s a kind of quirk I have…enjoying being able to do as I please, and people with bad intentions giving me a wide berth.

    Visually, people generally intepret the look as masculine, but no man who is really secure is fooled by that. A woman who’s not on steroids is usually not going to look truly masculine, and there’s a limit to the amount of strength or muscle mass someone with alot of estrogen is going to gain…but being truly fit is something that makes a person more beautiful in a real way.

    Not only is life easier when you’re stronger, but you move more gracefully, and with more confidence. I like the way that feels, and how others respond to it is an excellent bonus.

    …but related to the topic, another thing I hate about dinner dates is that unless the guy is a bodybuilder, he’s going to be stunned by the amount of food I’m capable of swallowing in one setting.

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  128. I like a woman who eats with unabashed pleasure. Show me some appetite, baby. Women who pick, and whine about how they shouldn’t have dessert, and moralize about meat … Those aren’t good signs.

    Like


  129. on November 27, 2008 at 2:29 pm ironrailsironweights

    About 32-35 year old men who are ready for marriage: where is a woman of 22-25 going to meet such fellows? I didn’t when I was that age. I met mainly young men of my own age and up to a few years older, and they wanted to play the field (even the betas, as I said). The older men I met were married already, or else divorced and in no hurry to re-commit themselves. It may be different now that so many people are marrying late.

    Even with today’s later marriages, people in those different age categories aren’t always likely to travel in the same social circles or have many common acquaintances, so it may be difficult to meet one another.

    Ten-year age gaps are also problematic because women tend to live several years longer than men. If a woman marries a man ten years older than herself she’s likely to be alone for almost 20 years after his death. Another issue is that because men age more quickly than women (in aspects other than fertility, I mean) the woman may find herself caring for a feeble elderly husband when she’s still relatively young and vigorous.

    Peter

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  130. To clarify I would give up my voting rights for the return of chivalry not because I think men would select better leaders, but because in these days of Kang and Kodos for president there’s no real choice. The government bureaucrats, lobbyists, and corporate leaders aren’t changed with each election, but are tapped by every president to serve in his cabinet because they have “experience”. Chivalry would improve my life in tangible ways whereas modern voting merely provides the illusion of control.

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  131. “Even with today’s later marriages, people in those different age categories aren’t always likely to travel in the same social circles or have many common acquaintances, so it may be difficult to meet one another.”

    When I was in my early to mid-20s, you simply didn’t find men between 32-35 hanging around in the kinds of bars or “clubs” patronized by college students and their immediate elders. The handful of men who did were thought to be slightly sleazy. We knew there were bars and “discos” for older singles, which people my age – men and women alike – joked about, as the haunts of jaded divorced people of both sexes. But the really trendy young places were for the very young.

    Clio

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  132. Clio, I suspect that most of the men who were 10 years older than you when you were in your 20s were still of the generation that married young, and it’s likely that a still-single 30-something guy may have been less than desirable.

    Peter has a point about men dying younger, but he overstates the issue.

    The 8-12-year difference in ages strikes me as ideal, (allowing for exceptions of course) because men are at their all-around peak of attractiveness (best combination of looks, confidence, maturity, energy) in their early to mid 30s, and women in their mid-to late late 20s, while being emotionally ready to marry at 22-23.

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  133. To drive my point home: who did Monica have better chemistry with: Richard or Chandler? On the incontrovertible authority of that example, I rest my case.

    Like


  134. Hey PA,
    Yea, what you witnessed on the iron horse was sad. I too saw things like that when I was doing my researches. Because so much of a woman’s way of communicating is nonverbal, and because the vast majority of women are indirect when they do communicate, be it verbal or non, little things like what you saw was very important.

    Unless a young man has been trained well by his dad and/or other men, most young women of the kind you spoke of won’t be into him for long. There are notable exceptions of course, but this guy you described clearly wasn’t one of them. For most guys walking around, they kinda have to ride times like those out, until they clear college, or if they went straight into the workaday world like yours truly, until they get some years on the job and realworld experience under their belt.

    You know its interesting you’d bring up the whole bit about the train ride. I see so many guys who have no idea how to treat women while out. I even had to point out once to a couple, who happened to have been White, by the way, that the man is supposed to take the outer seat. The guy was clueless, but did what I suggested; the gal smiled.

    Mike Blowhard, here, here on a gal w/a good appetite. Mu don’t do rabbits.

    And, while I have heard of the Rules, I admit I have not read them. I will do so, soon.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  135. on November 27, 2008 at 3:48 pm Patrick Bateman

    sara

    She will never find a man as good as me. The Bateman you see here is one dimensional, but I am far more complex than this. There are still a couple of woman who think they fucked some guy named Patrick Bateman, and they got the Bateman treatment, but those who know the real me peg me as high quality father and husband material.

    I saw the ex a couple of weeks ago. She wanted the cock, but I didn’t think she deserved it.

    Her: You look great!
    Me: I know

    My earliest problem with her, the one I was willing to deal with, was that she was so sweet and innocent looking that I didn’t enjoy fucking her that much. Other posters have touched on this issue. I like the sweet ones as girlfriend material, but I love fucking filthy sluts.

    About the rules
    Girls can go wrong with the rules. The rules are to find a beta male provider. But if you want an alpha for cock, or maybe more, the rules won’t work. One of the girls I’m talking to right now is trying to use something like the rules on me. She can’t control all her little actions that signal attraction, and her friends fucking love me, but she’s still trying to play cool. Now I can play back and forth with a girl, but she’s taken it too far. I haven’t been able to see her real personality to judge if I want her or not, so I’m assuming she’s garbage and I’ve deleted her number from my phone. If she adheres to the rules, it’s over, but if she breaks them and calls me, I’m going to crush her ego and make her my pawn just for trying to run such shitty game on me.

    Only a low quality guy will jump through hoops for a girl without finding out if she’s worth it.

    Like


  136. Mu – you’re spot-on about the man taking the outer seat. Trains, restaurant booths, etc. Like you, I even see grown up couples where the man sits tucked away quietly into the corner.

    My favorite: the wife driving the car, the hubbie sitting next to her like a good boy, all buckled in. This frequent sight gives Mrs. PA and me a good laugh every time. Sure, I sit in the passanger seat sometimes. But only on those occasions when it’s unwise to let Sgt. Officer’s nose come into contact with my breath.

    I figure, with boys and girls of college age, the young woman brings her full arsenal to the mating game: her youth and beauty, if not yet her refined charm. And the man? if he’s productively working after high school — trade, military — he’s got something.

    But my scrawny friend on the train, he had no idea who he was yet. The faux-intellectual facial hair, the faux-arrogant voice on the cellphone, the nervous-bunny body language when our eyes met — clearly, still a child. Completely outclassed by his very average girlfirend.

    The way I see it, he can take one of two paths: become an arrogant prick lawyer type (he looked like a rich, smart and mouthy type) who is deferred to but never respected or liked, and who marries a gold digger that will never love him.

    Or, he will one day grow up, listen to good guidance (if he’s lucky to get it) and still become a lawyer, but also a decent guy.

    Like


  137. Hello

    I agree with you on the whole “give up the vote for return to chivelry” thing. And that is a hard thing to say because I have always been interested in politics and as a teenager I couldnt wait to be able to vote. Honestly though, I would give that up for chivelry because it would have more of an impact on the quality of my life. I am a strong willed woman but with a man who is intelligent and honourable I would be submissive. And gladly.

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  138. Um..ladies, point of information. That chivalry thing is a two way street. In it are social rules of engagement for both straight men and women, and even unspoken/lesser known rules for intersex and homosexual people.

    …and the counterpart of a courtly straight man is not always a lady. It is sometimes a courtesan, and sometimes a shieldmaiden (lady in the court but a freak in the battlefield). Sometimes it is even a war groupie.

    For chivalry to become trendy again would require a critical mass of people embracing personal responsibility, or at least the basics of it. They’d have to assume control of their behavior (as much as is possible anyway), and learn to sacrifice their own desires for the good of others around them, their society, and their nation. This would be taken to a level that well…I don’t think men or women are ready for in general.

    Being a chivalrous is a very hard row to hoe in a narcissistic culture of self pity. So if the narcissism and self pity were solved, chivalry would probably come into fashion naturally.

    As it is, it’s becoming a kind of a fringe lifestyle.

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  139. The fact that some women are willing to give up the right to vote for chivalry is rather sickening to me…

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  140. This is why it seems to me that in our society it works out best when a 32-35 year-old man marries a 23-25 year old woman.

    That closes off my source of platonic female friends.

    you’re spot-on about the man taking the outer seat. Trains

    When non-date g/f and I were on the train, I took the inner seat because I wanted the window seat.

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  141. Michael, you are a special man. Still, that kind of eating, I don’t usually enjoy doing at restaurants. I prefer my own cooking, and there are certain advantages to indulging in a nurturing, sensual activity in private.

    Though I eat alot, I prefer to eat slowly, and really enjoy it. At home, I have more control of the atmosphere, and there’s no closing time. 🙂

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  142. Patrick says, “Girls can go wrong with the rules. The rules are to find a beta male provider. But if you want an alpha for cock, or maybe more, the rules won’t work.”

    Probably because Alpha people tend to do their own selection based on traits and behavior that turns them on, not by how well someone follow “rules”.

    Breaking rules skillfully and successfully would be more attractive in a mate.

    “One of the girls I’m talking to right now is trying to use something like the rules on me.”

    You might want to explain how you understood that the woman was using the rules as a manipulation strategy. Some guys don’t know, and even though I try to explain it, I’m not a guy. This is one of those things men need to hear from men.

    “She can’t control all her little actions that signal attraction, and her friends fucking love me, but she’s still trying to play cool.”

    I hate that. Be cool or don’t. Don’t play at it.

    “Now I can play back and forth with a girl, but she’s taken it too far. I haven’t been able to see her real personality to judge if I want her or not, so I’m assuming she’s garbage and I’ve deleted her number from my phone.”

    Though you could be wrong, it’s best to go with your gutt. Certain aspects of compatibility are sensed immediately, so no rules or games are needed. Manipulation may be effective with less aware people for a time, but it is usually just prolonging the agony of a doomed relationship between people who don’t really exist…masks relating to one another like puppets while the real, insecure people behind them are still in hiding.

    “If she adheres to the rules, it’s over, but if she breaks them and calls me, I’m going to crush her ego and make her my pawn just for trying to run such shitty game on me.”

    Hmmm…seems like you do sense that she is wasting your time and thought. Otherwise you probably wouldn’t feel upset enough to consider vengeance.

    You’re doing payback and deterrence…same thing I would do with someone who wasted my time.

    I’m female though. I can get away with, “You never cared.”

    “Only a low quality guy will jump through hoops for a girl without finding out if she’s worth it.”

    Yeah, but plenty of high quality guys jump through hoops for girls who seem worth it at the time, but turn out to be a penny dressed up as a dime.

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  143. Nicole,
    You make some really good points. Oh, and in case DA is reading along, checkout Dogs Of Justice, Chris’ new blog at wordpress, there’s something for you, third post down. Check the comments. And, don’t worry, history is replete w/Enuchs.:)

    Nicole, I had meant to cosign your earlier comments about the importance of “being yourself when applying Game”. This is so very true. No amount of Game in the world will help you if you’re doing something that’s completely alien to you. I’ve always been a direct, blunt person, so I don’t feel right or natural doing the kinds of things Roissy suggests much of the time. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t work, however; just merely saying that it ain’t me.

    OK that’s it. Holla

    Salaam
    Mu

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  144. Nic,
    You are right about chivalry being a two way street. Some women think chivalry means men kissing their asses for no reason when in fact they’d have to do far more for said men than they do now. It’s the same with men who want “traditional” women. Some guys think it would mean they could do whatever they wanted without their women bitching at them but that wasn’t the real purpose of it. The classic paterfamilias who had the last word in all family decisions had to think more of his family than himself every day of the year. If he made a mistake he had to take all the blame. Most men don’t want that responsibility any more than most women want to obey.

    We can’t have everything, and although a man was dominant in his family he paradoxically served them. Of course not all did, and many husbands were selfish and brutal. If all or even most men carried out their responsibilities as leaders of their wives there would have been no feminist movement. Unfortunately for both men and women, feminists went horribly wrong but modern people seem by and large – as you say – too narcissistic and self pitying to really embrace the sort of self-sacrificing chivalry that would make them truly happy.

    I enjoy your comments very much.

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  145. “If she adheres to the rules, it’s over, but if she breaks them and calls me, I’m going to crush her ego and make her my pawn just for trying to run such shitty game on me.”

    This I also find alien. If you don’t like her why not just stop calling her?

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  146. on November 28, 2008 at 10:22 am ironrailsironweights

    When non-date g/f and I were on the train, I took the inner seat because I wanted the window seat.

    From a chivalry standpoint, leaving aside railfan considerations, it would be better for the man to take the aisle seat. That’s because, at least in my train-riding experience, occupants of the aisle seats are frequently bumped into by people who are walking down the aisle. Narrow aisles + elephantine SCA’s = much bumping.

    Peter

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  147. “Gay?” “My fur?”

    Too bad the guy blew it so badly with this woman. Sounds like he’s really missing out.

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  148. Bateman

    The Bateman you see here is one dimensional, but I am far more complex than this. There are still a couple of woman who think they fucked some guy named Patrick Bateman, and they got the Bateman treatment, but those who know the real me peg me as high quality father and husband material.

    The real you is WHO?

    I saw the ex a couple of weeks ago. She wanted the cock, but I didn’t think she deserved it.

    I, for one, am completely convinced.

    I found these just for you and in your spare time from being pegged as a super alpha cock master you might want to improve yourself even more if that were possible.

    I NOW RELEASE believing that sabotaging others will make things better for me.

    I NOW RELEASE my fear of failing and being humiliated.

    I NOW RELEASE that I must conceal my mistakes and limitations.

    I NOW RELEASE betraying my own integrity to get admiration from others.

    I NOW RELEASE using arrogance to compensate from my own insecurity.

    I NOW AFFIRM that I have value regardless of my achievements.

    I NOW AFFIRM that I am caring and have a good heart.

    I NOW AFIIRM that I delight in the accomplishments of others.

    I NOW AFFIRM that I can reveal my real self without being afraid.

    And of course she wants “the cock”. She’s addicted to it regardless of what it’s attached to. She didn’t deserve it? Well, THAT can be taken two ways and from what you’ve said about her here; you’re right. She doesn’t deserve it.

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  149. Regards chivalry: There never was a golden era.

    The feminists and other ideologues on the Left have denied human nature and misled a lot of people in the process. We would have a better chance of finding satisfaction and happiness if we labored under fewer popular delusions. But I think the treatment of chivalry here is a bit Panglossian.

    So we need more precision. What of the past do you want to see restored? How should men and women behave?

    If you want to change the world then start with yourself. How can you make yourself more chivalrous or otherwise more like you want the world to be like?

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  150. David Alexander:

    The fact that some women are willing to give up the right to vote for chivalry is rather sickening to me…

    Why? Observe how many immigrants in the U.S. and other rich countries live for many years as non-citizens on worker and student visas, green cards, etc. They don’t seem particularly distressed because they don’t have the right to vote, and they are obviously happy to trade the voting and other citizenship rights in their native countries for a higher standard of living as non-citizens elsewhere. Why would it be sickening if a woman similarly prefers a hypothetical world in which she wouldn’t be able to vote, but men would treat her better?

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  151. hello:

    If all or even most men carried out their responsibilities as leaders of their wives there would have been no feminist movement.

    I was with you up to this point, but here I disagree. My impression is that feminism was cooked up, initially embraced, and politically pushed not by women who actually suffered under the traditional system (e.g. wives and kids of drunken, violent, nasty men), but by spoiled kids from the upper classes who wanted to play rebels. In this way, it parallels communism, which was similarly invented, promoted, and forcibly implemented not by impoverished and oppressed workers, but by kids of the idle rich and their hangers-on who never did a day of productive work in their lives.

    Predictably, both ideologies have always been creeds of a group of intellectuals who claim to speak for certain “oppressed” classes, while in fact being completely out of touch with reality, especially the life reality of the common folk — and constantly grasping for opportunities to impose their ideology by any means, no matter how sly and ruthless. Another parallel is that both ideologies point out some legitimate grievances (in addition to invented ones), but their proposed solutions lead to disasters when forcibly implemented in practice.

    “If she adheres to the rules, it’s over, but if she breaks them and calls me, I’m going to crush her ego and make her my pawn just for trying to run such shitty game on me.”

    This I also find alien. If you don’t like her why not just stop calling her?

    For some reason, men tend to get really angry when they like a girl, successfully start flirting, dating, or whatever, and then get the impression that she’s trying to play games with them (even if she’s still sending positive signals overall). It’s a very strong feeling of rage and thirst for revenge, similar to what you’d feel when you’ve been wronged or betrayed by someone you considered a friend.

    Of course, it’s a totally irrational impulse, which has nothing to do with any real feelings of justice — except perhaps for a small number of natural charmers, men always try to play games with women and consciously plot to maximize their chances, and the only difference is whether they’re skilled at it or not. But this anger impulse is a standard part of the male mind, and I have to admit that I’m myself not immune to it. It may take some strong self-control not to do something stupid when it happens.

    This is why on this blog you can often read stories following the pattern “she tried to play stupid games with me, so I decided to teach her a lesson.”

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  152. “My impression is that feminism was cooked up, initially embraced, and politically pushed not by women who actually suffered under the traditional system”

    Feminists like Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton were middle class women who saw themselves as advocating for less fortunate women for whom the protections of chivalry weren’t extended. Of course there were lesbians and misfits involved in feminism in the 1800s, but people were more willing to declare themselves elitists who condescended to the lower orders. The sort of radical posturing in American feminism didn’t become a dominant feature until the 70s. Feminism has been around since 1792 when Mary Wollstonecraft wrote “A Vindication of the Rights of Woman” and it has had many phases.

    “It’s a very strong feeling of rage and thirst for revenge, similar to what you’d feel when you’ve been wronged or betrayed by someone you considered a friend.”

    Sometimes I think treatises on Zen should be sold along with Game manuals and dating books.

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  153. The stupid bitch can’t even spell the word “paid” correctly. He’s better off without her. And Roissy, although you talk about how Game can help a guy like this, you don’t really say how he could use it specifically in this instance.

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  154. “First-wave feminism”: 19th century, Susan B. Anthony. Focused largely on getting rid of sex/gender-based barriers.

    “Second-wave feminism”: post-WWII, crested circa 1970. Had a few points in its favor, but quickly became anti-male, affirmative-action-oriented, and egalitarian. Often promoted by privileged if not spoiled women, and was fairly quickly taken over by lesbians.

    Link.

    Christian Hoff Sommers is really good on the distinction between the two feminisms.

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  155. hello:

    Feminists like Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton were middle class women who saw themselves as advocating for less fortunate women for whom the protections of chivalry weren’t extended. Of course there were lesbians and misfits involved in feminism in the 1800s, but people were more willing to declare themselves elitists who condescended to the lower orders. The sort of radical posturing in American feminism didn’t become a dominant feature until the 70s. Feminism has been around since 1792 when Mary Wollstonecraft wrote “A Vindication of the Rights of Woman” and it has had many phases.

    You are correct. I had in mind the ideology of second-wave feminism, which is what is normally understood as “feminism” in pretty much all Western countries nowadays. The results of pre-second-wave feminism are nowadays a matter of complete political consensus, so in gender-related matters where there exist any present ideological disagreements outside of the farthest fringes of society, it is the second-wave feminist doctrine that is in question.

    (In my opinion, the supposed “third wave” that’s been going on for the last 15 years or so has been nothing but an attempt to create a more publicly presentable and politically marketable version of the second one. It has certainly succeeded in achieving conformance in many areas of life that were outside the reach of the second one.)

    Sometimes I think treatises on Zen should be sold along with Game manuals and dating books.

    Writers on game correctly inform their readers that certain patterns of male behavior often elicit spectacular reactions from women when skilfully executed. What they usually neglect to add is that certain patterns of female behavior are also apt to elicit irrationally strong reactions from men, and that a man can find himself reacting in a shamefully irrational manner in such situations. This is why on forums like this one, you’ll sometimes read stories of strangely angry and vindictive behavior and attitudes towards girls even from guys who are presumably doing more than OK with women.

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  156. My only complaint about game is that it seeks to use a woman as a means to an end and every person (man, woman, or child) is an end unto themselves.

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  157. Sara, what the guy using game is seeking depends on the guy. There may be a fine line between having game and manipulation, but there is a line, and that is the truth, however relative one may consider it.

    It can be used for evil, but then so can any other communication strategy. Most guys though, are using it the same way women use charm…a way to increase the chances that one will get attention before they’re discounted over something trivial.

    …and as I’ve said before, my only problem with it is that a guy may well succeed at getting the attention of a woman who doesn’t suit him. Until a guy has a good handle on himself, it’s not a good idea to try to bring someone else into his intimate world.

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  158. Michael, your outline of feminist history is more or less the official version – but I think the following divisions are more helpful and more accurate:

    “First Wave” feminism was concerned largely with getting women the vote, not your far more vague and general “getting rid of “sex/gender-based barriers”. It endured until universal female suffrage was the law throughout English-speaking countries. The process of winning women the right to vote in all jurisdictions in the Anglosphere took a long time and wasn’t complete until the mid-1920s, after WWI. These female suffragists were highly moralistic in the conservative sense: they were Prohibitionists; they fought prostitution; they were mainly against abortion and contraception.

    Then a Depression and another war hit, and women’s rights faded from public consciousness as an issue.

    In the 1950s, feminism rose again (the Second Wave), this time in the guise of careerist feminism, as the baby-boom created a huge demand for workers. These women initially wanted equal pay for equal work, and the right to apply for any job they wanted, as it was still legal then to pay women less than men for doing the same job and to advertise jobs by sex. This movement was not initially terribly radical; it reached a crescendo with the creation of NOW in 1966.

    But NOW’s moment was almost over before it had begun, because a new feminist movement – which called itself a “women’s liberation movement”, rather than “feminism”, was about to burst on the scene (Third Wave Feminism). It really was radical, and its purpose was to knock down or break through all barriers based on sex, even questioning the very idea of sex differences between men and women. This was the movement that made issues like abortion rights, lesbian rights, and even sexual separtism for women, into public concerns.

    So: First Wave = right to vote; Second Wave = women’s careers and the right to work; Third Wave = radical feminism. I think that Christina Hoff Sommers and her ilk – which I suppose might include me – are really Fourth Wave feminists – though the others would question our right to call ourselves feminists at all, and so I don’t bother any more. I couldn’t buy abortion as the central right of feminism.

    Clio

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  159. Nicole,

    Until a guy has a good handle on himself, it’s not a good idea to try to bring someone else into his intimate world.

    To most on this site, “to bring someone into his intimate world” rarely navigates above the crotch. I do NOT exclude women by any means, when it comes to using a man as a means to an end. The end could be procuring a meal ticket, curing loneliness, ego gratification, sexual relief, or any number of things. If we just realize that people are not here for us to use and discard it would be uhhhhh…..nice.

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  160. Clio – I think that’s a nice elaboration on the standard account, but why try to rename these eras and movements? You’re going to run into practical communication troubles if you start referring to radical 1970’s feminism as “third wave feminism,” for instance. As far as most people are concerned, third-wave feminism is an attempt that was made in the ’90s to revive feminism in a more shitkicking (and often “sex positive”) guise. People have settled on these labels already — they’re an established part of the common language. Why fight ’em?

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  161. Sara says, “To most on this site, “to bring someone into his intimate world” rarely navigates above the crotch.”

    That sounds like a challenge. In my observation, most of the guys here, though painfully limited in many typically American ways, want or have loving relationships that are more than flings. The problem for most of them seems to be finding someone who’s worth more, and then finding one from among those few, who wants to be more than platonic friends.

    Manian is a harsh language, and it’s easy to get confused, but if a guy really doesn’t care either way, he’s not posting on a topic. I daresay if the primary objective was just to get laid, most wouldn’t really need game…just to place themselves around sufficiently slutty women.

    I have seen some butt ugly, nasty behaving players in my day. I knew one who looked like Idi Amin’s mini-me.

    “I do NOT exclude women by any means, when it comes to using a man as a means to an end. The end could be procuring a meal ticket, curing loneliness, ego gratification, sexual relief, or any number of things. If we just realize that people are not here for us to use and discard it would be uhhhhh…..nice.”

    Sorry, but there is no such thing as altruism. Even nuns feeding starving children in Bangladesh are using those children to boost their ego, which is fueled by sacrifice and serving others. They’re using others to make themselves feel useful. Any interaction with others gives the giver and the receiver something.

    This is why I say there is no such thing as meaningless sex.

    There is such a thing as a positive use and negative use. To love someone for love’s sake is great, but it doesn’t make for good relationships. To express love even to a baby properly, we must do it with an agenga to help the child grow and prosper. You can’t fill their hungry bellies with hugs. You have to give them milk.

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  162. WWaaaaaaaaiit a minute. I seem to remember some weeks ago posting a line about buying a woman a drink, and not pushing yourself on her, as a GOOD thing to do and was berated for it.

    And now this is given as advice…

    -Grace.

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  163. PA – I’m not surprised that your co-worker is still single. I’m noticing a lot of friends in the city starting to pack up and move out. Career related, but relationship motivated.
    -Grace

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  164. sara I The end could be procuring a meal ticket, curing loneliness, ego gratification, sexual relief, or any number of things. If we just realize that people are not here for us to use and discard it would be uhhhhh…..nice.

    I2I sara I2I

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  165. […] mistakes he is talking about are guys who don’t know how to read women. You have to read women. You need to be an expert […]

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