What Is And Isn’t Rape

On the subject of what *should* constitute rape (not what ugly lesbian feminists wish would qualify as rape), commenter “Game in BK” wrote:

If a girl is drunk and she says yes to sex- it isn’t rape.
If a girl is sober and she says yes to sex-it isn’t rape.

If a girl is sober and she says no- it is rape.
If a girl is drunk and she says no- it is rape.

Yes, this sounds right. Drunkenness is no plenary discharge from personal responsibility. If you are a woman who is worried about getting “date raped” at a frat party filled with drunk horny guys where you will be drinking so much that you won’t be able to give consent or you give drunken consent, it’s up to you to make the choice not to binge drink in that environment. There should be no legally sanctioned “Get out of regret” rape card for women who wake up the next morning ashamed of their behavior.

Note that this does not absolve sober men who take advantage of drunk women who cannot give consent. If a girl is so drunk that she’s lying there comatose, a sober man having sex with her could be fairly charged with rape. But a drunk man would be off the hook. After all, if she is too drunk to consent to sex, he is too drunk to know whether or not she has consented. Which brings us round to personal responsibility again; if you are a woman who is afraid your inner slut might escape to have sex under the influence with a man at a party who is also under the influence, it’s up to you to refrain from drinking a lot or attending that party. The responsibility to remain sober — or at least avoid getting lights out drunk — should not rest solely with the man.

If feminists are truly interested in not being treated like morally undeveloped children under the law, they will agree to my definition of rape. But since feminism is about power dynamics and not at all about fairness or justice, they will never agree with me. That is why feminists are discredited.





Comments


  1. Luckily this is one area of the law in which men are put at a huge disadvantage that is actually getting attention and will very possibly change over the next few years. In fact rape shield laws have been slowly chipped away in most jurisdiction over the past decade after thier build up in the ’70s, ’80s and early ’90s. However, in the mean time innocent men will rot in prison to cover for flaky, flighty lies.

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  2. on July 6, 2009 at 12:03 pm ironrailsironweights

    What about this scenario: the woman isn’t much of a drinker, the man knows that, and he tries to get her to keep drinking in the hopes of getting a drunken “Yesssh” out of her?

    Bad behavior, to be sure, but I’d stop short of calling it rape.

    Peter

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  3. @Madras:

    “However, in the mean time innocent men will rot in prison to cover for flaky, flighty lies.”
    That’s highly unlikely to happen. The average crime has a conviction rate of 34%, rape is still around 6% in the UK. In the US it’s something like 13%.

    Also, there’s a lesser chance of a man being charged as guilty with rape if the victim was drunk at the time.

    I’m not saying the innocent don’t get convicted, yes, in all crimes, unfortunately, it happens. In one case, a man spent time in jail because the victim could not properly identify him (he got out and the actual rapist was convicted). But rape doesn’t have the same conviction rate as other crimes.

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  4. This is a good justification for consensual filming extra sketchy scenarios like GangBangs. I was at a bar one time and my friend whipped out his camera phone from when he was in a GBang, I was like I totally hoped you filmed that to protect your own ass. I’ve had quite a few friends with the Redact Drunken Sexor card pulled on them, I’ve also known a few girls that were straight up for raped. What sucks is the ‘saving Face Style I remember but I’m going to act like I don’t’ cases really screws up sympathy and believability of real victims.

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  5. on July 6, 2009 at 12:17 pm It's My First Day

    Back in my younger, more “AFC” days, I was going out with a girl who got drunk at a party and had sex with one of my friends. She tried to pull this “I was so drunk it was like he raped me” bullshit. In hindsight, she was a total slut who had a great deal of difficulty in saying no to a cock. If I had known then what I know now, I think I would have had a hard time not punching her in the mouth. One of her friends, in an attempt to help justify her sluttiness, even went so far as to suggest that she “call out” my friend who had “raped” her in front of all our friends.

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  6. ”Rape” means ‘to carry off’ – traditionally referring to a gross violation of coverture in the form of a woman being physically taken away, after which time she could no longer enjoy a presumption of virtue. It is impossible to commit ‘rape’ in 21st century America.

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  7. the other thing is, if you go to any bar where people actually drink you’ll find the difference between giddy sober girl you don’t know and buzzing sober girl you don’t know is almost impossible to tell. Of course how many times have you been talking to someone guy/girl who appears lucid and fairly articulate then have them puke on the dance floor 30 seconds later. In my experience that is not that unusual. I think there is an obvious difference though when they slur and can’t walk wilst puking though.

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  8. on July 6, 2009 at 12:20 pm SmartyJones

    These are treacherous waters. I’m glad Roissy has handled it with aplomb. Every time I depart here there’s some great stuff. The beta of the month seemed at face value a slam dunk. By the end of the thread it had gotten more interesting.

    Folks that filled in with some news and insights made it a different ball game. It was too late for me to change my vote. I found out later that billionaire guy had moved on and that Antonio aka Vincent had been thrown under the beta bus by that harpy.

    aeofe really rocked on spelling out the contraditions. But what is about the selfish feministas that a logical construct to their nonsense if placed directly in front of their faces, yet they act like it’s not occurred.

    As for this arena, alcohol is mostly the lubricant that brings out the slut if it’s there. I’ve had too many girls go all mental after the fact when they had a great time the night before.

    Champagne is the elixir that most every girl loves leading to passion. Excessive alcohol abuse is just in bad form though.

    Frat boys don’t use alcohol for lubrication. They use it to set a trap. That’s probably the big difference.
    Women need to not place themselves in scenarios of risk with excessive alcohol at parties. Your reputation only be ruined once, especially in a small town.

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  9. @ mandy, 2% chance for having your life ruined because she had to tell her boyfriend SOMETHING is still pretty bad

    and in this case, the problem we’re talking about here is not really that people innocent of the crime as it is defined get convicted but that the definition of the crime itself is wrong/unjust…

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  10. I’ve been saying this for years! Why does being drunk absolve the woman of her responsibility but not the man?

    Furthermore, why is being drunk allowed as an excuse at all? Most feminists would rightly scoff if I said “Well, I was drunk” in response to a traffic accident or assault charge.

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  11. @Rabalder:

    Yes, it is bad.

    But it’s not like some rampant parade of “OMG INNOCENT PEOPLE GO TO JAIL EVERY MINUTE.”

    Innocent people shouldn’t go to jail though.

    I also mentioned that within the next decade, FMRI scans will be able to read someone’s intentions, someone’s familiarity with the crime scene, maybe memories who knows…

    It’s a huge ethical dilemma, because it invades the rights of people keeping their thoughts to themselves, but it could be useful in he said/she said situations.

    I still think it’s pretty scary to use though.

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  12. My own defnition of rape is simple: intercourse forced on a person in the context of a non-sexual situation.

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  13. “But a drunk man would be off the hook. After all, if she is too drunk to consent to sex, he is too drunk to know whether or not she has consented.”

    Compare:

    “On Drunken Sex”
    http://blog.talkingphilosophy.com/?p=875

    And:

    “I’d Never Report it again…”
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1165646/Id-report-rape-says-female-lawyer-accused-chef-rape-drunken-night-stand.html

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  14. Firepower’s Maxim 304.b

    If a girl is sober and she says no- it is her loss
    If a girl is drunk and she says no- it is teasing

    Why…is drunkeness NO excuse for car accidents

    but is “valid”
    for women

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  15. LadyRaine writes: “A woman has to be intelligent enough to NOT get shitfaced at a party, not dress like a whore and talk a stroll into the ghetto at midnight, etc….”

    But rape is about asserting power remember? Surely the conservative dressing girl who is holding up sex till the guy puts a ring in her finger would be the no. 1 target of the rapists, no? The slutty looking one is actually the one showing considerations of constrain…

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  16. 1. There are also some women that like to be “raped”. One girl I knew liked to say “no, no, no”, and then when I didn’t, would say “just play along honey. force yourself on me”

    I have heard this from other male friends too.

    Sometimes no means “just the tip”.

    While this is fun, it’s totally cheating. It’s like attacking soldiers wearing civilian clothes, and then the community complaining when civilians get killed.

    2. Women like to use rape as a “let’s nuke this argument from orbit” tactic. If you are having an argument-of-the-sexes with a woman, and she knows she’s going to lose, she’ll start talking about rape.

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  17. I am relatively new to all of this.
    Truth be told- I have read the material for two years or so- but its only in 09 that I started to game in earnest.

    At this point I have probably spoken to 400 women since jan of this year- before I started to implement game in 09- I probably cold approached 200 women over a 12 year span- that equates to 17 chicks per year that I would try to pickup- now I average 17 every week.

    What do I have to show for it?
    More make outs this year than at any other point in my life:
    More dates than at any other point in my life:
    I have probably gotten 10 phone numbers on the NYC subway system- something I thought was impossible before I began to game in earnest.

    Sex- not so much- I am having problems converting phone numbers into sex, not that I want to fuck hundreds of women anyway.

    My phone is chock full of women- so many women in fact sometimes I can’t really remember who they were, or where I met them- some names are duplicates -IE more than one Liz- Liz A B, but I am having trouble converting most phone numbers into even day two’s.

    Euro- who posts on this blog I believe has the same issue.

    I am good at rapport, but I am lacking something- I am not quite sure what it is- in the middle of a pickup attempt some women actually (shockingly) state that I am seducing them- so I cant quite tell what’s missing.
    BTW: before game and Roissy no girl ever accused me of seducing them- I was the anti seducer.

    Anyone who says MM doesn’t work is a fool. If nothing else it gives a broad outline of what must be done in order to communicate with women- isolate- neg among others- these are words (and a roadmap) which have entered my lexicon, and they are powerful concepts.

    A neg doesn’t have to be derogatory- in its simplest form it is a playful tease- tease the hot girl at the bar as if she is your sister.

    When MM is implemented correctly you can see women’s eyes light up. You don’t need to use his lines, but use the concepts behind the lines and insert your own language.

    This is fucking incredible material- and if MM and Strauss hadn’t put it into book form I never would have gotten laid outside of getting the occasional lucky bang, and the LTR that was doomed from the beginning because of settling on my part.
    At one point in my life I felt like a complete failure- (very distraught) when I was younger because I couldn’t get any women being a chivalrous, and highly empathetic beta.

    I wasn’t a bad looking guy at all- but I feel I squandered most of my youth because I was fed bullshit by women on how to relate and court other women.

    I know plenty of men that have totally given up on women because they can’t get them no matter what they try- obviously they aren’t trying MM- they think it’s BS or too try hard.

    P.S. I am using game to try and enter another LTR- but this time I won’t settle.
    Still I am missing something- I can’t quite put my finger on it.

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  18. Being drunk, even passed out drunk, isn’t a crime. But the law prevents people from being able to state “I was drunk” as an excuse for committing an illegal action. For the very obvious reason that people would just get drunk, and do the crime they were planning on doing even before they got drunk. So an unconscious drunk girl has committed no crime. A drunk guy has committed no crime. But a drunk guy who has sex with an unconscious drunk girl has definitely committed a crime. Same with a drunk guy who runs over three kids, or a drunk guy who shoots his friend in the face, or a drunk guy who buys some drugs, etc.

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  19. @BlackSheep

    Didn’t you read the “means less rape” post? Power is *not* the cause of rape.

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  20. It’s interesting that the person trying to trivialize this is a girl – No offense mandy – I’m just trying to make a general point: Wich genders interest you focus on when it comes to issues like theese correlate strongly with wich gender you are. This might be a hint that we need some male version of the feminist movement if the needs of men are to be met.. As roissy said: “feminism is about power dynamics and not at all about fairness or justice” If that is true, a similar mens movement might restore some kind of balance.

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  21. All–

    For those that didn’t see it, aliasclio and I had quite an argument on this topic last night and this morning on the prior thread:

    http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/07/05/more-porn-means-less-rape/#comment-100258

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  22. Game in BK,

    Ultimately, you’ve changed. You won’t settle for the same crappy behavior out of women that you would’ve hardly noticed in the past. What you’re missing is the quality partner – it’s hard not to come away cynical from the whole experience.

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  23. i want to agree with roissy, but there’s a few considerations that stop me from accepting this wholly. if we can agree that number of sex partners impacts men and women differently, then it should follow that a man who has taken advantage of a drunk woman has harmed her in a way that a woman taking advantage of a drunk man has not.

    this doesn’t absolve women from the consequences of their actions, but it just seems that there is an undeniable qualitative difference.

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  24. Game in BK: You just need to get better at escalating. You won’t get day 2s from all your number closes, but the ones you do get, push for the kiss close. It lets them know what you’re about, and lets them opt out if they’re not down with it, so you can cut your losses.

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  25. To give an example of how emasculated I was raised:
    On the NYC subway lines- attractive women dress more than half naked- short micro skirts, and their boobs are almost hanging out- before this year I would be afraid to look at them, for fear of being labeled a pervert- or worse.

    Now I have to force myself to look at them- just a look, a quick glance and some eye contact- no intense staring, but a quick up and down scan- my mindset now is: if you are going to dress like that (in public) I am going to look.

    But I still have to force myself to do it- old habits die hard.

    What’s funny about this is I have some black friends that grew up in some poor neighborhoods, and they have no problems checking women out, and when I was younger I even thought they were perverts for accosting women in this way! Natural game in play there.

    One thing I learned from Roissy and DR. Paul is to be a man- a real man isn’t afraid of his sexuality- a real man wants sex, and isn’t afraid to ask for it. If a girl doesn’t want to have sex with you- you next her and move onto another one that does; But the very fact that you flirted with a girl- isn’t illegal, it isn’t perverted, and it isn’t wrong to try and pickup a women in public.
    Now this doesn’t mean that you have to use foul language or that you can grab her ass- but you do have the god given right to flirt.

    P.S.
    I read a comment here the other day and it was damn scary- I forgot who posted it, but it went like this:
    A female medical student thought that men could control their erections!
    This is a medical student! How could she possibly be in medical school and not know basic anatomy?

    She was basically trying to tell the poster that men can turn their sexuality on and off as if it were a spigot- so if a man were to sport an erection while speaking to her- he would be guilty of something inappropriate in her mind.

    She was trying to deny the base animal in all humans, the animal physiology (and biology) of pheromones and sex drives cannot be ignored or swept under the rug.
    Now that is some sick shit.

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  26. No” just means try again..

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  27. Lance: It’s not a question of “taking advantage of a drunk woman”. If she can stand and talk, and is reciprocating your advances, then she’s into it as much as you are, and it isn’t your obligation to say “come on honey, let’s take things slowly. I’ll call you tomorrow and we can go out for dinner”.

    If she gets with you and then is ashamed in the morning, that’s her own problem. I feel the same way when I wake up next to an ugly chick, but I don’t call the police. I just swear off booze for a while.

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  28. on July 6, 2009 at 1:22 pm vainofstars

    Agreed, save for the point on “drunken men who take advantage of unconscious drunken women”. An unconscious person cannot give consent. It is irrelevant whether their partner is sober or drunk. Drunken drivers are convicted for maiming or killing people while behind the wheel — they cannot argue they were “too drunk” to make good decisions.

    If Roissy would argue (and I agree) that women are responsible for their actions, regardless of their sobriety, I must respectfully point out that men are also accountable.

    What about women who change their mind halfway through? How do you assess the situation when alcohol is involved?

    I am opening a bucket of worms here.

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  29. @anony 12:27 – that UK article is a good read. esp. a 45 y.o. cougar saying she could *never* be attracted to a good looking 20-something guy while drunk, because she’s “not his type.” uh huh.

    @doug, all – i agree today’s derivative topic was discussed thoroughly and well on yesterday’s thread.

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  30. Game in BK: I can tell you quite categorically that that is not taught in medical school. The only system of control not participating in erections is the voluntary one. That is made quite clear and she was blatantly violating medical science by proposing otherwise; she knew this full well.

    The only thing subject to any degree of control is sexual thoughts and desires that trigger the involuntary mechanisms.

    Mandy: There is no guarantee fMRI technology will advance but there is potential. Reading minds is a fun exaggeration. Its use as is is discussed in an article in my comment here.

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  31. @all NYC roissyites- i am likely to be in the big apple from the latter part of next week through the weekend. thurs 16 through sun 19, probably.

    can’t “sarge” per se because i’ll be there with wife and mother in law. but i could get away for early evening (happy-hour timeframe) drinks/conversation. maybe later, if i send them to a broadway show and bow out myself.

    i know this probably goes against the Internet/blogosphere code of total anonymity, and so may be a total faux pas. but just thought i’d put it out there. why not?

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  32. If I leave my car parked in a bad neighborhood with the doors unlocked and the keys sitting on the dashboard, and someone takes it – it was stolen, but I was a complete idiot and should have expected it to be stolen.

    Same basic idea for women doing stupid assed things that turn out as badly for them as one would have naturally expected.

    As to all the raging debate about rape being a power or a sex thing – it is both, and the two are inextricably woven together.

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  33. @ASDF

    I feel the same way when I wake up next to an ugly chick, but I don’t call the police. I just swear off booze for a while.

    LOL! Too funny.

    @everyone else

    Women are not being force fed alcohol, it’s still their choice in terms of how much they’re drinking. Unless a roofie was planted in her drink and even then she needs to be more careful, she’s responsible for how much she imbibes. Women know and use to their advantage the too much to drink line – it allows them to behave with less inhibition. This is probably TMI but I have a cut-off point – when I’m sitting in the loo and my head leans for the wall of the stall – I cut myself off. Period. Drunken sex-capades to me need to be off the court’s dockets. Period.

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  34. The problem is, personal responsibility isn’t encouraged AT ALL in liberal post-feminist academia. Instead you have a paranoia-inducing “rape culture” that tells impressionable young women ANY regretful drunken sex is in fact rape. My first day on campus, they handed out rape whistles to all the women. By day there was a constant flurry of ‘Take Back the Night’ rallies, vigils and protests for ‘victims of sexual violence’, and even a biannual campus newsletter for date rape victims to speak out and share their tragic stories. By night these same ’empowered’ girls dressed up in tube tops and miniskirts to go swill Everclear and get shitfaced at hazy frat parties. It’s easy to see how this toxic cultural brew could end in disaster.

    Just one look through the rape newsletter was sign enough, as about 25% of the stories were about molestation or violent assault, and 75% were date rape confessions where the girl usually never even said ‘NO’, but merely ‘felt uncomfortable’ or ‘froze up and lay there, willing for it to be over’. I tried to see these stories from the male side, with the poor kid probably just thinking his ‘date’ was a cold fish in bed. Nope – you’re a big bad evil RAPIST, kid. It got so bad one of my friends would make girls ask for sex while he filmed them with his camera phone. Rape insurance.

    Meanwhile, if you even dreamed of suggesting your fellow college women might want to be more careful about their drinking habits at frat parties in light of all the horrible horrible date rapes going on, you would be excoriated by the campus feminists for ‘blaming the victim.’ They would look at you with fiery hatred and squeal, “NO woman deserves to be raped, no matter what she’s wearing or how much she’s been drinking!” Absolutely true, but she can only help her odds by NOT BEING AN IDIOT. Sometimes I wondered they deliberately suppressed this talk because they needed a steady stream of ‘date rape victims’ to justify their man hating irrationality. Which would be truly evil, but these are campus feminists we’re talking about.

    This is no joke, people. It is happening on college campuses across America. With all the constant fear-mongering and rape rallies going on at my school, I only heard of one clear-cut, violent sexual assault in my whole four years there. And a year later, the victim retracted her story and said she made the whole thing up.

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  35. @ Collegeboy

    ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haa;jsdfk jpaidjfhpoiqfjhaf;jkljf

    coke on my keyboard… ok that was really good

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  36. -maurice-

    i have met up with cannon from this board- we had some fun times.
    i live in nyc if you want to bar hop and talk game email me.

    [email protected]

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  37. on July 6, 2009 at 1:43 pm Antonio (not vincent)

    @maurice & @Game in BK

    Yeah, I live in NYC as well. Lets put something together.

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  38. kalli0pe

    The problem is, personal responsibility isn’t encouraged AT ALL in liberal post-feminist academia

    yep. there, and just about everywhere.

    academia is particularly, egregiously guilty; they misconstrue endowing youth with education as a means to maturity

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  39. @ Firepower-

    Agreed. I actually think the ‘rape culture’ is mostly responsible for all the college LUGs. Imagine being an impressionable 17-year-old girl, first time away from your parents, and the first thing they do is give you a rape whistle and warn you all your male peers are evil date rapists in waiting. It would drive almost any girl to lesbianism.

    Which is exactly what the campus feminists want. Lots of hot young ‘experimenting’ chicks for them, and none for the men.

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  40. @kalliope- what university was that, and what time frame? i have a few guesses, but would be interested to know.

    @BK, antonio, cannon- OK, noted. let’s see who else bites and try to set something up. remember, i’ll have a limited time window, but thought it might be fun to put board personalities with people in RL.

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  41. Roissey’s post makes absolute sense. Some of these comments, however, are chilling. Regardless of the legality, rape is an unfair punishment for drinking too much.

    Not knowing anyone who has been falsely accused of rape, I imagine it’s a horrific experience. Knowing women who have had not consensual sex, I know it’s a horrific experience. Just wanted to add amidst the “no means try again” jokes.

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  42. @GameinBK:

    I always thought it was easier to pick up in NYC as a man or in a woman versus other major, cosmopolitan cities. I’ve been told that women in New York are a lot more aggressive about picking up, and more receptive to being picked up. It also seems very apparent in the bars and clubs. I can also speak first hand when I say that men are exceptionally forward as well, 10x more than in Toronto. Kudos on all the good work, though.

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  43. @ maurice-

    Let’s just say it was fairly recent, and a school WELL known for an infamous false rape allegation. 🙂

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  44. @ Mandy

    That’s highly unlikely to happen. The average crime has a conviction rate of 34%, rape is still around 6% in the UK. In the US it’s something like 13%.

    This is misleading because most criminal charges are not “victim persued” charges. If a cop finds pot in your car…well, you’re probably getting convicted. If a cop sees you driving while your license is revoked, same deal. If a cop sees you throwing a brick through a window, same deal. Rape is obviously in a different category than all of those. It almost exclusively relies on the victims story.

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  45. How often do rape accusations get prosecuted?

    I’ve done around 30-40 clinical sexual assault exams, and to my knowledge, only one got beyond the depositions stage. I’ve seen literature on the correlation between exams and successful prosecution; the presence of other visible trauma (bruises, scratches) generates higher prosecution. Reading my local newspaper, I surmise that the successful prosecutions almost always involve the very young girls.

    Almost all of the sexual assault histories I see fall into one of two categories: 1) girl gets stone cold drunk at a party, or 2) she accepts a car ride from a stranger…often when she’s really angry. Less often, I speculate that she welcomed making out, but said NO to sex, and then was raped.

    A practicality on college drunkeness: in the early stages of college drinking, it’s trial and error until a girl learns how much she can drink responsibly; ditto for the boys. Until then, she may inadvertently overshoot.

    On the power/control vrs. sex motive of rape: I’ve always thought the “power” agenda was a left-over from days when rape wasn’t prosecuted seriously. “It’s about power” was used as a slogan or prod for prosecutors to be aggressive. Roissy believes it serves to remove female culpability. Either way, I believe women can not be blamed for rape, but they can be called out for wreckless, stupid behaviors. Men justly fear false accusations, but it seems that successful prosecutions are rare.

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  46. @kalli0pe:

    “Which is exactly what the campus feminists want. Lots of hot young ‘experimenting’ chicks for them, and none for the men.”

    I think you might be over-extending this claim a little bit. I doubt most of the 18-22 year old campus feminists in undergraduate are smart enough to organize, and conspiracize a LUG phenomenon. Even if it is merely what they want, I doubt it too. I always perceived a sort of disdain from genuine feminists toward fashionable lesbians, who as they would probably say, reinforce male patriarchal fantasies. I think radical feminists are most often attracted to other of their type? And are probably seeking LTRs too, not a bullshit, fashionable mode of being.

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  47. @kalliope- it’s gotta be Duke, then.

    actually that story is a pretty good test case for all these issues.

    — a drunken stripper (black) makes a rape accusation against a bunch or wealthy, not-too-bright white college athletes;

    — the charge is widely viewed as credible on campus and across the nation becasue of the reputations of said athletes;

    — a prosecutor facing a tough reeleection picks up the case and pushes it publicly to win the black vote;

    — that prosecutor quickly find there’s not much eviodence to backl up the charges (changing stoires, etc.) but SUPPRESSES this evidence in pursuit of a conviction.

    what happened in the end? the proscutor, his misdeeds exposed, was fired, disbarred, and actually convicted (community service or something). the lacrosse dudes, though they suffered for a while, were exonerated. the stripper was not punished, to my recollection.

    happy ending? well, given the context (default assumption of male guilt in rape accusation cases) and the insanely high profile the case had, i’d say yes.

    thoughts?

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  48. it got so bad one of my friends would make girls ask for sex while he filmed them with his camera phone. Rape insurance.

    Actually, how stupid is a man not to take similar measures, what with the clear climate?

    How ignorant do you have to be to not know what could happen to you?

    As an individual man in a woman-eat-man world, who’s responsible for your survival?

    Maybe it’s natural selection that you’re thrown into jail for trusting a woman. Your genes are made of stupid, sir, even if it’s not rape, who wants them?

    Now that I’ve made these dramatic statements: it is an injustice.

    She needs to make the ‘no’ clear even under the influence, I agree, with the caveat that she is capable of saying the word i.e. talking.

    This has already been mentioned but remember the society that tells them, encourages them, permits them to become completely drunk, to expect limitless protection (which — while expected — it’s true, is NOT extended effectively by the weak and/or self-serving betas). I’ve seen how militantly drink promotions and ‘it’s natural to be a drunk! It’s what fun is made of!’ have been promoted, with most university events featuring drinkfests as well as it being a ‘natural’ part of a freshman’s experience. Thanks to an equalist society, that will include women. It seems socially mandatory for most groups that include women from what I’ve seen.

    Not being a drunken ho and being a responsible one is an odd choice, mostly understandable if religiously motivated if at all by society. This isn’t a choice that is encouraged.

    You cannot expect a woman to act too much beyond the bounds of how she has been ‘trained’. Which is currently to act like men but still be utterly protected on the basis of being a vulnerable woman.

    Like


  49. kalli0pe

    @ Firepower-

    Imagine being an impressionable 17-year-old girl, first time away from your parents, and the first thing they do is give you a rape whistle and warn you all your male peers are evil date rapists in waiting.

    yep – It’s what’s known as self-fulfilling prophecy.

    never thought about the LUG aspect, though but you’re right. I lusted after this hot chick in college, she would give me the fuck eyes – then tell me she was lez. even had pics of her gf.

    i told her – “you aint even broke that thing in with the proper tools yet, how do you know its girlz klub only”

    she laffed – then got pissy when the Dyke Club sniffed its disapproval. fake

    Like


  50. -S.-

    I think Chicago might be the best place in the US for pickup- i have also heard that (both states) Dakota women are sex pots.
    There is a huge pool of Norwegian and Scandinavian genes in the Dakotas- the ones that i have met in NYC are so fucking hot I almost want to move there!

    As far as pickup in NYC goes- i don’t know if it’s easy per se.
    In my experience many women here- wonder aloud why (the fuck) you are talking to them outside of a bar setting.

    I have daygamed in some book and grocery stores- at times the women look like a deer transfixed by headlights when I roll up and start to rap.

    There are so many fucking hot chicks on my subway ride to work my head wants to explode.
    And while I have gotten some subway numbers most of the women are too afraid to meet in person for a day two.

    I guess that might be the key to NYC- chicks give their numbers out all the time- but to actually get them out for a day two is pretty damn hard at times.

    The subways in NYC are goldmines- I need to step up my subway game- buts it’s fucking hard to rap to a new chick on a quiet subway first thing in the morning.

    Like


  51. S.

    I think radical feminists are most often attracted to other of their type? And are probably seeking LTRs too, not a bullshit, fashionable mode of being.

    yuk. what sane person wants to be in a ltr with a woman

    Like


  52. kalli0pe–

    Thank you babe!! You’re great.

    That was a really valuable report from the perspective of a woman who’s in the current American undergraduate university scene, or recently has been.

    I hear that kind of thing a lot from men, but it’s real good to hear it from you.

    and 75% were date rape confessions where the girl usually never even said ‘NO’, but merely ‘felt uncomfortable’ or ‘froze up and lay there, willing for it to be over’.

    If she doesn’t say no, loudly and clearly, but was physically capable of doing so, then it wasn’t rape, period, end of story, in my book. As I said on the other thread last night and again more clearly and fullsomely this morning to alias clio.

    I’d really like to hear her response to what you’ve said. Your point here is well taken:

    This is no joke, people. It is happening on college campuses across America. With all the constant fear-mongering and rape rallies going on at my school, I only heard of one clear-cut, violent sexual assault in my whole four years there. And a year later, the victim retracted her story and said she made the whole thing up.

    Are guys kicked out or hauled up on University “honor code” or whatever charges on the basis of these kinds of feminist defined downward rape charges, that you know of? I mean the kind that are based upon her being drunk but conscious and capable of speech, or where she simply didn’t clearly say yes without in any way resisting (or saying no)?

    Like


  53. I always thought the LUG phenomenon was more abut (1) fashionable lesbianism, (2) avoiding complicated romantic relationships with young men to focus on studies, (3) rebellion, (4) limiting unwanted male attention.

    Feminists have not been shy about recruiting young women, but I don’t think the women are motivated by fears of being raped, but by other factors — mostly social and, in some cases, political/ideological.

    Like


  54. on July 6, 2009 at 2:19 pm Antonio (not vincent)

    @Game in BK

    I’ve found that after work game on the subway rides home works better on Wed and Thurs night. I used to live in Bay Ridge and would often find many hot chicks to talk to after work. Morning subway game was definitely tougher. As usual, calibration is key.

    Have you tried this? http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/01/28/feigning-beta-provider/

    Like


  55. @Game in BK:

    Ah, OK, I see where you’re coming from now. Yeah, I notice that women in NY do have a sense of entitlement, probably because a lot of men are so forward, so they feel they can be especially selective. On the subway, especially if the exchange is short, you often don’t know what you’re getting so you are a little more guarded (ah, the joys of diversity on public transit).

    There are apparently a lot of really beautiful, single girls in Philly. I don’t know why that is the case. As for Chicago, I’m also at a loss.

    Like


  56. @Game in BK
    I can’t even really imagine a successful way to pick up a girl on the morning commute here. The fact that you’ve gotten anywhere on the subway seems really impressive to me.

    @kalliOpe, interesting. I went to a bastion of feminist learning and while we had rape discussion along the lines you discuss, they also regularly included:

    – don’t be drunk or drugged up, especially in public, or you’re putting yourself in increased danger
    – ladies, look out for each other. Go out with friends, if you have a really drunk friend take her home, etc.

    Like


  57. “LUG” ?

    Like


  58. @Antonia & @al: It’s funny that you guys are at a consensus of subway game being the toughest. I always thought, and in my personal experience, that it’s easy to pick up on the subway: Everyone else around you is pretty frigid and non-conversational, so the woman would be more appreciative of a man who does decide to initiatie contact.

    Like


  59. lesbian until graduation.

    very common at women’s colleges, and some crunchy schools, and abhorred by “true” lesbians.

    Like


  60. @maurice: Lesbian until graduation.

    Like


  61. S.

    I think radical feminists are most often attracted to other of their type?

    bleh. its hard enuff for girls to be freinds with each other, let alone fuckbuddies.

    add uggly fat dykes with ass hair and you’ve got aproblem

    there are NO “hot” lez couples

    Like


  62. Men justly fear false accusations, but it seems that successful prosecutions are rare.

    Being prosecuted for rape itself constitutes an enormous punishment. Tens of thousands of dollars in legal defense fees are a real possibility, as are countless hours of time. And the stress and anxiety. Then there’s the enormous damage to reputation.

    Sure this is true of any defendant who’s proscuted for something he didn’t do, but this area is different. There’s a whole atmosphere of hysteria based on a whole lot of lying and vast exaggeration that feminists have intentionally set first and foremost on college campuses, in the manner kalli0pe describes, that have lead to this. It’s part of their program of pervasive misandry, demonizing of men, and seeking every possible iota of protection for women, at limitless cost to men. That last they simply don’t care about.

    That false Duke rape accuser was directly encouraged by this atmosphere, which everyone knows about in college towns. She knew she’d get a lot of sympathy and support for her story of rape, and face no consequences if she were found out on that of all lies.

    False accusations of rape should be prosecuted far more than they are. That Duke rape case woman should definitely have been prosecuted to have an example made of her. Instead people get all teary about what a loser life she’s lead. Well — when males who’ve lead loser lives do things causing terrible damage to others especially females, they aren’t generally just let off as an indulgence.

    Like


  63. @firepower:

    I think that’s the point. A lot of lesbians aren’t really attracted to the typical, feminine display of beauty, hence the dowdy, mannish appearances.

    Like


  64. al

    lesbian until graduation.

    very common at women’s colleges, and some crunchy schools, and abhorred by “true” lesbians.

    Well, it’s abhorred by true lesbians by way of working to shame converts while in college against “backsliding” as their exit draws near or occurs.

    It’s a tool to make the lesbian conversion permanent, they hope, much more than a filter against all but the most unshakably lesbian to begin with. Oh no. Suck them in first.

    Like


  65. @al- tx. that phenom seems to have appeared long after my undergrad days. but i went to a pretty sexless, nerdy undergrad school anyway.

    seems a little weird to a man. flip it around: do guys experiment with gay sex as soon as they move out of mom-and-dad’s house? uh, NO. the very idea is repellant to straight guys. i guess that’s more evidence that, at least for women, hetero/homo sexuality is as much a choice as biologically determined.

    now if they’d just let those frat boys watch… 😉

    re subway game- i’d think that’s too crowded for pickup – i’d think for day game bookstores etc. would be better bets. quieter, more isolated.

    new york is full of very clique-ish, trend-conscious and money-driven people i’ve found, for both sexes. certainly compared to DC. maybe now in the financial depression people are lightening up a bit. i have read press/blog pieces to the effect that NYC folks are fucking more and working less, because there’s less work than there used to be.

    Like


  66. “a man who has taken advantage of a drunk woman has harmed her in a way that a woman taking advantage of a drunk man has not.”

    Either way, the victim has been potentially exposed to herpes.

    Like


  67. i guess that’s more evidence that, at least for women, hetero/homo sexuality is as much a choice as biologically determined. (maurice)

    See:

    “What Do Women Want?”
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html

    Like


  68. @ Game in BK

    > I wasn’t a bad looking guy at all- but I feel I squandered most of my youth because I was fed bullshit by women on how to relate and court other women.

    Ditto here. When I look back on all the missed opportunities, I am astonished. The sad thing? I didn’t know any better. The comforting thing? I didn’t know any better. But now I do.

    Once you wipe the gauzy cobwebs from in front of you and gaze unflinchingly into the harsh light, you can’t go back to the cave.

    In the end, I got the kind of girl I wanted to start my Dynasty and Empire. It will be glorious.

    Once you’re through process of learning and internalizing game (though you will never stop using it) the same idea of change will spill over into other areas of your life. Five years ago, I was an awkward geeky thing and didn’t know a French cuff from dinner jacket. And yet a few days ago I was at an upper class wedding with my fiancee and got kudos on my dance moves from hot girls and admiring comments on the matching shade of my pocket square and scarf.

    Whenever I get wistful, I always remember one thing: no matter how far down the wrong road you’ve travelled, the answer ALWAYS is to turn back. To live life half-awake is worse than death. And most people never realize they’re asleep.

    Like


  69. One of the most appalling aspects of the Duke case was that the falseness of it was quite easy to see (and prove) as soon as the “victims” written complaint (constant ejaculations, no condoms at all) was put side by side with the fact that none of the accused left any of their DNA in or on her person yet the campus left/feministists continued their persecution of the 3 plainly innocent kids. They knew all along no crime had been committed but they never backed off or apologized.
    Nifong, the local DA, was just a garden variety sociopath hiding as a Officer of the Court. But a University should be better than that, right?

    Like


  70. @doug1 @maurice:

    The idea of homosexuality being played out by choice is silly. Men don’t experiment with other men because being masculine is at odds with a submissive role which requires penetration. I don’t think the idea of being feminine is necessarily at odds with bisexuality or lesbianism; there are a lot of lipstick femmes out there.

    However, that doesn’t negate the phenomenon of pretense lesbianism. I don’t see these women ever being “converted”. If you like dick, then you like dick. Period.

    @maurice:

    I travel to Manhattan a fair bit. People in NY are trend conscious and money-driven, but I don’t think to a larger extent than any other major city. DC seems fairly unpretentious, but it’s also not as big, and it’s too close to NY to carve out a real identity for itself as a city. In fact, because NY already has an established reputation, I get the impression Manhattanites DON’T feel the need to “try as hard”, and are generally pretty laid-back.

    Like


  71. kalli0pe–

    Agreed. I actually think the ‘rape culture’ is mostly responsible for all the college LUGs.

    What would guess was the percentage of girls at your college who were LUG’s? (The whole time, for a year, anyway you want to answer it.)

    Or were LUG’s most of the time but occasionally did guys?

    Anyone else?

    Like


  72. dreamin

    Either way, the victim has been potentially exposed to herpes.

    not that is some wacky, nutty stuff

    truly funny

    Like


  73. “The idea of homosexuality being played out by choice is silly. Men don’t experiment with other men because being masculine is at odds with a submissive role which requires penetration. I don’t think the idea of being feminine is necessarily at odds with bisexuality or lesbianism; there are a lot of lipstick femmes out there.”

    @S. —

    Hmmm.

    I don’t think there is a pent up curiosity inside men about gay sex which is repressed due to fear of appearing to be unmasculine, or due to some kind of cognitive dissonance inside men about that. Men really are generally (other than the small% who are gay) not curious about gay sex, or interested in other men sexually — we’re not as fluid as women are in this area, and it’s a difference between men and women. There are plenty of unmasculine even kind of effeminate type of men who are not at all gay-curious or attracted to men at all.

    Like


  74. on July 6, 2009 at 2:56 pm ironrailsironweights

    Men don’t experiment with other men because being masculine is at odds with a submissive role which requires penetration.

    Penetration is the key issue. Because lesbian sex is non-penetrative, women can experiment to quite some extent while rationalizing their actions as “just fooling around” and telling themselves that they’re not actually having sex with other women. Men don’t have that option. With two men, there’s a bright line (two bright lines, to be specific) at which their actions unequivocally become sex.

    Peter

    Like


  75. If she’s drunk and says no or is passed out, it’s still rape even if he is drunk. That’s fair because that’s how it works for all crimes.

    If you rob a drunk person, it doesn’t matter if you are drunk at the time, you’re still a robber.

    I agree that women should be careful about drinking around guys. I never drink period. I have zero trust in any men. It also makes me thin relative to other women who fatten themselves up on American beer.

    Advice to women- don’t drink. Ever. You’ll be skinny, have low numbers and have a good girl image.

    Like


  76. @Novaseeker

    It just makes a lot more sense that females would be willing to experiment in this way because it isn’t necessarily at odds with being feminine, and therefore still socially inclusive. I don’t know how many closeted or curious men would experiment in the same way oweing to all of the social stigma. They might be closeted for life?

    The Kinsey Scale comes to mind. I’m not sure how much merit there is to it.

    Like


  77. Game in BK:

    Keep on it, you will find the formula. I was 5 for 5 in converting subway phone numbers into Day2s (then again, I only took a number if the conversation had gone well). I was not relying on looks. During the day, dial down the seductiveness and focus on seeming “normal” — talk about family, your weekend with your friends, your job, sprinkled with a little teasing and aloof body language. You have to seem grounded and not too eager. Girls on the train are screening for weirdos.

    As for your lack of sexual success overall, I would put my money on body language. I have a friend who can open up any group or girl, but converts poorly later in the conversation or on the first date. His body language was killing him — I could see him “locking” into the girl every time — turning his shoulders to her, focusing all his attention, etc. No matter how much teasing came out of his mouth, his body screamed: I’ve known you for all of two minutes, but I really, really like you! Finally, he worked on body language. Last week, two numbers, two dates, two lays. Simple adjustments. From my experience in NYC bars, overeager body language is the number one pickup mistake. When I see random guys doing this, I mark the girl and know that she will be free later (if i’m feeling aggressive, I’ll just break right in). My own success rate skyrocketed once I got the proper attitude down, communicated entirely by body language. I am the worst conversationalist on the planet, and it does not matter at all. Find somebody– preferably a girl — who can watch your interactions and tell you what you are communicating with your body.

    Like


  78. S.:

    The Kinsey Scale comes to mind. I’m not sure how much merit there is to it.

    I would classify Kinsey as roughly similar to Freud. He has been highly influential and seemingly makes a lot of sense, but on closer scrutiny, his work is a load of complete baloney. Certainly not a source where you should look for any answers.

    Like


  79. on July 6, 2009 at 3:16 pm Gunslingergregi

    ”””””””’Game in BK,
    P.S. I am using game to try and enter another LTR- but this time I won’t settle.
    Still I am missing something- I can’t quite put my finger on it.””””””””””””””

    Maybe you still haven’t met one who you actually like. Harder than it seems good back story though. You are shooting for ltr so you are not going for the bedding maybe. You think when you bed them is when you fall in love and are afraid that at that point you will no longer have a choice maybe just stuck with the one that said yea to fucking. Just need to apply same criteria to what you want out of woman to include the sex.

    Like


  80. A woman may regret having had sex (e.g. got caught in an affair), then lie and say that she had said no, at which point she becomes a “rape victim.”

    There’s an interesting story from Texas where a woman was having sex with a guy in his car outside her house, then her husband came home early and saw what was going on. She got out of the guy’s car and claimed he was raping her, so her husband shot the man in the head, killing him.

    Turns out the sex was her idea, and now she’s being prosecuted for manslaughter for getting her lover killed.

    Read the story.

    Like


  81. women are only good for sex

    if you want a pal
    to talk deep philosophical meanings of life
    get a dood

    don’t be a pussy beta who needs to “have a Relationship, with youuuuu – bayyyybeeee!” *sniff*

    Like


  82. @Vladimir:

    I’m pretty sure the Kinsey scale is thoroughly debunked; you’re right.

    Re: the NY times study cited by anonymous. Sexual fluidity makes sense in a certain light. It’s one thing to feel aroused by erotic images, even of male-male, and female-female, if you identify as a heterosexual. It is another thing altogether to claim that you are bisexual or gay. I am sexually attracted to men. I can appreciate female beauty, but not be sexually attracted to it. Similarly, I can be aroused by erotic images if they don’t depict heterosexual relations. There are nuances in this sort of behavior, but sexual attraction remains the same.

    Like


  83. Feminstx

    I have zero trust in any men.

    Meanwhile you’re furiously trolling for a husband, while a committed man hating lesbian.

    All men should have zero trust in you.

    No man should be foolish enough to marry you, and suffer a life of being hated and sexually frustrated (and soon divorced, most likely).

    In light of the foregoing, I’m tempted to say that in contradiction to my general abhorrence of true rape, as opposed to some varieties of feminist so called rape, that special rules should apply to you and that men, especially sexually frustrated betas, should be encouraged to rape you, with no legal consequence. You do have a rather nice body so some betas might enjoy it. But I suppose that rape encouragement would be a tad harsh of me, so I’m resisting the temptation.

    If she’s drunk and says no or is passed out, it’s still rape even if he is drunk. That’s fair because that’s how it works for all crimes.

    I actually half agree with this. Unlike Roissy, I had no out for the man being drunk in what I said on the other thread and linked to above.

    However it’s a bit legally purist. The situation is different from other crimes, or it could be. Let’s say she’s given every indication of consent but then slurry says something like maybe better not. He’s drunk and interprets this as really meaning yes. She’s assumed risk here. She isn’t regarding the danger of him having sex with him with great seriousness. He’s not perceiving things right. It’s a subtle thing we’re asking him to perceive. If you try to get me to convict him of full bore rape, sending him to jail for years, on that scenario, I’m not going to do it. Some misdemeanor, then yeah, probably. Or maybe not. But I’d like to scare him. Don’t want him doing it again.

    I.e. such a situation is taking the principle that a woman never deserves to be raped, by the manner of her dress, or where she goes alone at what hour and so on, which I generally agree with, to the breaking point.

    Similarly, I really don’t think I’d convict a guy of rape when the girl says no after he’s already entered her, but not before, and been enthusiastic or teasing the whole time. Esp. if its some game she’s playing and then get’s pissed he doesn’t follow her commandments when she changes them mid stream in a power play. How about if she says yes, yes, yes right to the point where his cock is starting to enter and then she says, just kidding, it’s no? Well you can say he should stop and I agree, I guess, but would I convict him then? No, I would not. She’s playing fast and loose.

    However if she’s an innocent and doesn’t realize how far and fast things are going, and waits too long and then says no, no, no very late in a game, that’s different. That’s what the rules are for.

    Similarly, you take a drunk guy who rapes a sober enough girl who makes “no” absolutely clear, then hell yes, it’s clear rape and his drunkenness was no excuse, just as it isn’t in the usual case of committing crimes while drunk.

    Like


  84. @S. —

    That’s true, but the interesting thing about the Times article was that it didn’t register male arousal, physically, based on male homoerotic images other than for gay men. That was very different from what was registered among the female subjects. That makes me think that the idea that there is any significant amount repressed/closeted male homoerotic curiosity is rather unlikely. It’s possible that the repression runs so deep that it is simply unarousing for such men to view male homoerotic images, but if that’s the case, then I’d have to wonder if it is still appropriate to consider it to be a case of repression or closeting.

    The most interesting thing about the NYT article was the quite marked difference in physical arousal response between straight-identifying men and women based on the kind of erotic stimuli.

    Like


  85. To all posters thank you for the input.
    This is still all very new to me- don’t get me wrong I have a very high sex drive, and I genuinely love women- but don’t think I am a saint.

    My sexual partners are extremely low for a man- low for a woman even- I know that I absolutely need to sort my oats- but I am trying to go for quality women instead of quantity.

    With that said- I love flirting with women, its like a drug- this is probably cause it is all so new- but I am still in the experimental stage- I should have done with this stage five years ago.

    -Flashman-
    Thanks for the tips on body language.
    How often do you talk to women on the subway?
    Is it an everyday occurrence?

    Like


  86. on July 6, 2009 at 3:38 pm Gunslingergregi

    aoefe
    @ASDF

    ””””””””””’I feel the same way when I wake up next to an ugly chick, but I don’t call the police. I just swear off booze for a while.

    LOL! Too funny.

    @everyone else

    Women are not being force fed alcohol, it’s still their choice in terms of how much they’re drinking. Unless a roofie was planted in her drink and even then she needs to be more careful, she’s responsible for how much she imbibes. Women know and use to their advantage the too much to drink line – it allows them to behave with less inhibition. This is probably TMI but I have a cut-off point – when I’m sitting in the loo and my head leans for the wall of the stall – I cut myself off. Period. Drunken sex-capades to me need to be off the court’s dockets. Period.””””””””””

    See knew aoefe was a good girl 🙂

    Like


  87. @anony 2:40 – i had seen that piece when it came out, and read it again just now after 6 months actively taking part in this board. what a difference. first time it just seemed kind of random to me, like the researchers really didn’t know anything, or were stating obvious generalizations. but now the overall patterns are quite clear. a lot of the research findings and theories can be explained very well by evo-psych theories of mating.

    @nova – i thought the most interesting things were the difference between what women say arouses them and what really does (including, notably, rape fantasies) – another roissy commandment – and the idea of complementarily, that being desired arouses for women. duh, obvious, but of a piece with the roissy gospel and evo psych.

    good read – i recommend every regular here take the time to go through it.

    Like


  88. The NY Times piece (“What Do Women Want?”) also generated some interesting comments at Feminist Philosophers:

    http://feministphilosophers.wordpress.com/2009/01/25/yet-again-what-do-women-want/

    Like


  89. ‘If you are a woman who is worried about getting “date raped” at a frat party filled with drunk horny guys where you will be drinking so much that you won’t be able to give consent or you give drunken consent, it’s up to you to make the choice not to binge drink in that environment.’

    Same applies to men including you Roissy. Just a brother looking out for your young, taut, virgin male ass.

    Like


  90. Game in BK

    Did you read the Game by Strauss or any other specific books or just general seduction literature on the Web ?

    Like


  91. Re: The NYT piece. If one keeps in mind the natural hypergamy of all things female in respect of the mating game plus the fact that monogamous pair-bonding inevitably puts women with guys they never truly desire – it makes perfect sense that nature would shield their true desires from their consciousness.

    Like


  92. on July 6, 2009 at 4:32 pm Gunslingergregi

    Nario that is why I will probably never go to haiti he he he

    Got to keep on point.

    Like


  93. Interesting link from anon above:

    So let me take one example: it appears that women respond with increased blood flow to the vagina in response to a wider range of stimuli than men do, but that there also seems to be a far greater discrepancy between such arousal and experienced desire. There is a much closer correlation between arousal and felt desire in men.

    Now I can remember somewhat similar results being taken to show that women are just not as self-aware, etc. That isn’t the kind of explanation this more sophisticated research is looking at. Here’s one alternative explanation: vaginal arousal has a protective function, since it makes penetration less likely to damage one. So vaginal arousal may be cued to the presence of sex, not the presence of desire. Importantly, this would mean that a woman’s body’s being prepared for sex is no indication of willingness.

    Like


  94. It’s an interesting hypothesis that arousal is protective in women — what it means, though, is that physical arousal in women may be completely unrelated to desire. If that’s true, then that’s a huge sex difference between men and women.

    Like


  95. @anonymous – that fem-blog post zeroed in on the worst parts of the article and assumptions of the researchers. unsurprisingly. namely, that female arousal about rape is *defensive* – that vaginal lubrication prepares a female for the possibility of non consensual sex. this is inconsistent (why is arousal via rape fantasy treated differently than all other images that produce arousal?), illogical (witnessing a rape means you’ll immediately be subject to one?) and so fails the basic occam’s razor test: women are aroused by rape images/fantasies because … they’re aroused by rape/submission. see: Nancy Friday et al. in the article, i read that as that first female researcher’s attempt to tiptoe around this taboo subject – as nancy friday did not bother to do in the 70s, 30 years ago. i guess that’s the difference betwen pop-science and more serious research. the other researcher in las vegas did not make the same error – confronted it head-on, more or less.

    Like


  96. -alexbmn-

    i read tomes- pretty much anything and everything i could get a hold of.

    For whatever reason it wasn’t till i started reading roissy and dr. paul that it all came together.

    Perhaps this was just coincidence- i have read somewhere that you need to get 200 cold approaches (in a short time frame IE Months not Years) under your belt before something clicks. i got a few hundred approaches under my belt this year- subsequently i discovered roissy this year as well- was it the chicken or the egg?

    Reading all of this was no substitute for going out and talking to women- once you do a few hundred approaches MM makes intuitive sense. Whereas before I did my approaches something felt as if it was missing when I read MM.

    I have been rejected in so many ways its astonishing. But i have also gotten some great results- things i wouldn’t have thought possible just a few short months ago.

    Like


  97. Hey, just in case you guys are interested, it appears that a scientific basis for the “neg” has been established, so I wrote it up.

    Study: Treating Some Women Well Causes Negative Response

    It would be interesting to see Roissy’s take on this.

    Like


  98. Why do women lubricate themselves with booze so much in certain social settings? To me it would appear at first blush that women want to do things, but need to overcome deep rooted social inhibitions. Which booze does quite effectively.

    Like


  99. Re Defensive Arousal
    To lesbian sex?
    To animal sex?
    Saying they are aroused by something without a physical response?
    The study found all of these and none fit with the thesis that arousal occurs as protective from assault.

    Like


  100. on July 6, 2009 at 5:13 pm the_alpha_male

    Speaking of rape and precious little princesses:

    http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/story/2009/05/15/edmonton-cab-driver-lawsuit.html

    Like


  101. on July 6, 2009 at 5:16 pm Epoxytocin No. 87

    @ anony and others: The REAL problem regarding false accusations, regardless of the percentages of this and that, is that there is absolutely no risk for the false accuser. False accusations are almost never prosecuted, and, when they are, the maximum punishment is usually some “community service” bullshit.

    False accusations MUST be punished. Harshly.

    I visualize 2 alternative solutions:

    (1) The solution that might, MIGHT, get traction someday:
    Give the false accuser EXACTLY the same punishment that would have been given to the alleged criminals. Not a day or dollar less. If a rapist would get 20 years, then a false accuser should get 20 years.

    (2) My preferred solution, which would never ever be accepted into law:
    Make a “cry wolf” list.
    If person X falsely accuses someone of a crime (blatantly false – not just “unfounded”), then that particular crime against person X can no longer be prosecuted for a given period. Say 5 years.
    So, if person X falsely accuses someone of rape, then person X can be raped, without consequence, for 5 years.
    Not just rape, either. Say person X files a false burglary report to get some insurance money? OK, 5 years, steal whatever you want from person X.

    Like


  102. on July 6, 2009 at 5:16 pm Gunslingergregi

    If woman can say rape is only about power then they can feel that since they haven’t been raped rapists are scared of them which feeds into the they are powerfull woman.

    Now if rape is about sex then it kind of gives an ego hit if no man has tried to rape them since they weren’t pretty enough for some guy to be willing to give up some years of his life in prison to have sex with them.

    Like


  103. @whiskey:

    When you’re in an environment where everyone is playing beer pong, mixing screwdrivers and doing vodka shots, it becomes tempting. It’s no fun being the sober one in a group of drunkards. It’s no fun being the square.

    Of course, if you don’t want to be this person, you could always leave. But…some do have weak personalities.

    And of course, maybe others thing it’s cool. Something to brag about. “I did ten vodka shots and passed out afterwards LOL!”

    Or maybe it is to break the rules. Although, since people seem to be filled with so much shame and regret afterwards, I don’t know if this is always the case.

    Like


  104. @Gunslinger:

    “Now if rape is about sex then it kind of gives an ego hit if no man has tried to rape them since they weren’t pretty enough for some guy to be willing to give up some years of his life in prison to have sex with them.”

    No it isn’t about that. I don’t think. Rape, the real kind, leaves all kind of trauma and stress on the individual.

    I know that if it happened to me I’d probably commit suicide afterwards. I don’t know how I’d continue going on. It’s like a violation of the soul. I don’t think that’s flattering at all. It’s kind of like saying,”Hey bitch, I don’t care if you don’t want to, you’re going to have to do it anyway.” It’s a huge violation of someone’s body.

    I don’t know. I’m deathly terrified of it. ._.’

    Like


  105. Right on Roissy.

    And because nobody ask for sex directly, a women is raped when

    1) She is penetrated or someone has sex with her while she IS STRUGGLING against the advances of the “rapist”.

    2) She is penetrated or someone has sex with her while she is uncounscious.

    3) She is taken only through means of force or palpable threats that should constitute a crime in itself.

    Like


  106. on July 6, 2009 at 5:21 pm Gunslingergregi

    ”””””””’the_alpha_male
    Speaking of rape and precious little princesses:

    http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/story/2009/05/15/edmonton-cab-driver-lawsuit.html””””””””’

    Yea ok moral to story install camera in your bedroom not for porn use but self preservation. Good idea. Everyone can just have cameras on 24 hours a day.

    But yea bhetti and mandy brought up the mri imaging to help lie detect. Yea ability to tell if someone is lieing priceless.

    Like


  107. on July 6, 2009 at 5:24 pm Gunslingergregi

    Epoxy trying to be king solomon.

    I still think the lion idea could work. Just need to be some hungry lions.

    Like


  108. “To me it would appear at first blush that women want to do things, but need to overcome deep rooted social inhibitions.”

    My guess, which is related, is that women do it to give themselves an excuse: “oh, normally I wouldn’t do that, but I was drunk!” I’ve actually seen, more than once, girls go all ho-nutty when I knew that they had had less than one beer in them.

    They want an excuse to ignore taboos rather than overcome social inhibitions.

    Like


  109. on July 6, 2009 at 5:31 pm Epoxytocin No. 87

    @ maurice

    happy ending? well, given the context (default assumption of male guilt in rape accusation cases) and the insanely high profile the case had, i’d say yes.

    thoughts?

    NO, maurice. By regarding this as a “happy ending”, you are actually endorsing the general state of affairs.
    One great quality of men is that we are generally able to cope with things really well, and, especially, to see the positive aspects of otherwise trying ordeals.
    Specifically:
    Men can put things behind them much more easily.
    But in these types of situations, we MUST overcome that instinct.

    Nifong is not doing time. Therefore, this is NOT a “happy ending”.

    The bitch is not doing time. Unless she serves the equivalent of 3 rape terms, not a day less, this is NOT a “happy ending”.

    The lacrosse players have paid out untold amounts of money in legal fees, and we all know that the ONLY reason they’re not rotting in jail is their deep pockets.
    Unless they are reimbursed, this is NOT a “happy ending”.

    The “Group of 88” Duke professors who IMMEDIATELY rushed to call for the conviction of the lacrosse players have not been put on probation, had tenure revoked, or been punished in ANY way. This is NOT a “happy ending”.

    maurice, you usually have a good head on your shoulders, but that head is a bit up your ass here. It’s like being shot at – at an ever increasing rate – and thinking that a “positive outcome” consists of not being hit – YET – rather than trying to disarm the shooters.

    As long as people view these kinds of things as “happy endings”, justice will make NO progress, and the relentless feminist march toward injustice and destruction will continue.

    Like


  110. on July 6, 2009 at 5:31 pm Gunslingergregi

    Yea that is why you can game and fuck non drinking woman.
    Because you just remove the taboos with your words without getting any drink involved.

    Like


  111. on July 6, 2009 at 5:31 pm Gunslingergregi

    and why it works in almost any situation.

    Like


  112. Epoxytocin No. 87

    If person X falsely accuses someone of a crime (blatantly false – not just “unfounded”), then that particular crime against person X can no longer be prosecuted for a given period. Say 5 years.

    No, this wouldn’t work. In most of these cases only a recantation can establish an authentically false, as opposed to “unfounded” accusation. Unfounded simply means there is no solid evidence, which in cases of rape usually means false (real rape often involves specific injuries). Therefore, if women were given an incentive to not recant, they would stop recanting, and more men would, in all likelihood, be prosecuted for false accusations.

    Like


  113. on July 6, 2009 at 5:41 pm Epoxytocin No. 87

    No, this wouldn’t work. In most of these cases only a recantation can establish an authentically false, as opposed to “unfounded” accusation. Unfounded simply means there is no solid evidence, which in cases of rape usually means false (real rape often involves specific injuries). Therefore, if women were given an incentive to not recant, they would stop recanting, and more men would, in all likelihood, be prosecuted for false accusations.

    Yeah. Like I said, that was more thought-diarrhea than anything else.

    But false accusers should definitely get the EXACT sentence that would be meted out to true criminals committing the crime in question.

    Like


  114. on July 6, 2009 at 5:42 pm Gunslingergregi

    ”””””””’Mandy,
    I don’t know. I’m deathly terrified of it. ._.’””””””””””””

    Well I have never actually met a guy who would condone real rape so yea probably not that likely.

    Except for arpagus.

    I think just saying no though is not enough. You need to physically show your disproval. So the man understands which if you slap the shit out of him and say no. He will at that point understand completely that you don’t want to do it. Now if you don’t want to have sex don’t take off all your clothes and you probably won’t even get accidentally raped. Really the ambiguity on rape is talking basically about woman who are getting to the point where they are naked with a guy then saying no after they let him put it in. The physical rape like the woman is there fully clothed and the guy rips off her clothes and physically forces her to have sex. Which yea would not be an easy thing to do even though guys usually are stronger if the woman was fighting back.

    At what point in your travels would there not be people you could call to for help if this sort of situation was happening. Your at the mall and some guy decides to rape you how would he even be able to pull it off.

    Like


  115. […] un-quote of the day July 6, 2009 Filed under: Uncategorized — jj @ 9:42 pm From Roissy in DC: If feminists are truly interested in not being treated like morally undeveloped children under the […]

    Like


  116. on July 6, 2009 at 5:43 pm Gunslingergregi

    Your at the party and some guy tries to rape you. Real rape not fake. How could he possibly accomplish it if you fought back and didn’t want it.

    Like


  117. on July 6, 2009 at 5:46 pm Gunslingergregi

    ””””””””””””””’The un-quote of the day July 6, 2009
    Filed under: Uncategorized — jj @ 9:42 pm

    From Roissy in DC:

    If feminists are truly interested in not being treated like morally undeveloped children under the law, they will agree to my definition of rape. But since feminism is about power dynamics and not at all about fairness or justice, they will never agree with me. That is why feminists are discredited.

    We have often wondered about the hostility to feminism, and this quote gives us several layers to look at. What do you think?

    I found the quote through tracking back incoming links. If any of us goes over to comment on that blog, it would be great to carry along our major policy: BE NICE!”””””””””””””””””””””

    Roissy making an impact one feminist at a time.

    Like


  118. @gunslingergregi – “Well I have never actually met a guy who would condone real rape so yea probably not that likely. – Except for arpagus.”

    I wonder where Arpagus is? He’s had two threads practically screaming for his input and he’s nowhere to be found!

    You know why?? He got laid a couple of days ago and all the fight has left him. he he

    Like


  119. on July 6, 2009 at 5:50 pm Tupac Chopra

    aoefe:

    This is probably TMI but I have a cut-off point – when I’m sitting in the loo and my head leans for the wall of the stall

    That’s hot.

    Like


  120. yep
    nothing like a fresh piece of ass

    to make you like women again

    Like


  121. @epoxy87- OK, points taken, true dat. “happy ending” definitely the wrong expression. i saw the disbarment of nifong as a positive, and i didn’t expect it. but that was more a matter of the legal community policing itself (and guarding its reputation) as a redress for the false rape charge.

    i guess i was trying to say that it could have been way worse – they could have been convicted despite their obvious innocence. tha’s frankly what i was expecting at the time, with no small disgust and horror.

    on the specifics: nifong in prison? i thought he was convicted of some kind of public-office-abuse charge and had to do community service. not hard time, but not nothing.

    accuser in prison? what did she do? perjured herself. nothing more, under the legal system. how are false accusers treated in other kinds of crimes? libel is a pretty high bar to meet. (maybe some lawyers here can help out. what’s the worst punishment for a false accusation that’s *ordinarily, routinely* meted out by the courts?)

    accusees compensated for legal fees? what kind of precedent would that set for other cases? who makes them whole? in this case, the NC jurisdiction has obvious culpability, but that would not ordinarily be the case.

    gang of 88? free speech squared (constitutional and academic). free to stay stupid and biased things, as we all are.

    in some better world where cosmic justice could be achieved with the wave of a wand, i’d agree with you. but the legal system focuses on process and exists as it does for a reason. the rape issue, though discussed in this illustrious forum here today and yesterday in a rather cool and dispassionate way, is explosive socially and catnip for a sensationalizing media. and it’s hard for legislatures, courts, judges, etc to view it in the dispassionate way it deserves. which has made it easy for feminist interest-groups to insert their blanket assumptions into the legal process.

    that probably sounds a lot like satsifcation with the status quo, i know. but a better solution, one i put on the other thread, would be to subtract out the feminist assumptions abotu rape fom the legal system (sheld laws, etc.) and treat each case individually, without bias or hype. it may be that that’s what basically happens – a few posters have put up data suggesting that something like 15% or all rape accusations end up in a conviction. which means that the other 85% are acquitted.

    i don’t have all the answers, of course, but i withdraw “happy ending”.

    Like


  122. Roissy “But since feminism is about power dynamics and not at all about fairness or justice…”
    ===== Lightbulb! Let’s make our own motto: “Feminism isn’t about sex, it’s about power.”

    S. “A lot of lesbians aren’t really attracted to the typical, feminine display of beauty, hence the dowdy, mannish appearances.”
    === As a male I can only conjecture, but don’t the butches love the fems, and not so much fellow butches? To the extent butches are with each other, I often wonder if it’s more lack of alternatives than anything else. A hetero analogy is ugly people who are with ugly people. Do they *really* prefer their ugly partner, or have they just resigned themselves to their available options? I mean, do they see a 10 and say “yech” to themselves? Most gay male fantasies seem to be of a manly man who will swing for them, not the limp-wrist types. It would follow that the butches–who have male-ish brain wiring and are attracted to females–really would prefer Jessica Alba over another butch. In the real world, how many Jessica Alba types who are bi or gay want a butch? Practically none? Just thinking out loud here.

    dreamin “Either way, the victim has been potentially exposed to herpes.”
    === Dreamin, the herpes troll. (who probably has it)

    FeministX “Advice to women- don’t drink. Ever. You’ll be skinny, have low numbers and have a good girl image.”
    ==== Excellent advice. A girl who can honestly say “Except for a sip at toasts, never ever drink” puts herself in a high league by doing nothing. And although it’s a lot harder, staying a virgin is wise too. An attractive girl who keeps the old H intact has high value, enough to convince a guy who’s on the edge re the risks of matrimony. Of course, such a girl–if she’s careful about the guys she gets involved with–can still have a premarital sex life with not-Mr.-right boyfriends, using la lengua.

    Like


  123. on July 6, 2009 at 5:54 pm Gunslingergregi

    But even in arpagus case if he was going to rape a woman and he is tearing of her clothes do you really think he would keep going after she expressed her utter disgust in him and said no and fought. I think he would rethink his need for sex potentially.

    If womans turn downs are what causes a man to stop trying to have sex because he cannot handle rejection.

    How would he be able to handle ultimate rejection in the form of a woman he is trying to rape completely fighting his advances with mind and body.

    Like


  124. on July 6, 2009 at 5:55 pm Epoxytocin No. 87

    in some better world where cosmic justice could be achieved with the wave of a wand, i’d agree with you. but the legal system focuses on process and exists as it does for a reason. the rape issue, though discussed in this illustrious forum here today and yesterday in a rather cool and dispassionate way, is explosive socially and catnip for a sensationalizing media. and it’s hard for legislatures, courts, judges, etc to view it in the dispassionate way it deserves.

    I smell ya here.

    But, maurice, have you ever been privy to a negotiation? Any negotiation?

    When the other sides starts with an impossibly low offer, the way to an acceptable settlement is not to start with an offer that would be perceived as “reasonable”. The ONLY way to get a halfway acceptable settlement is to counter with a just-as-impossibly high offer.

    Same thing here. The current status quo is fucking outrageous. This is ultimately a negotiation, so, the only effective way to proceed is to start out with something that will be perceived by the other side (and even by moderates) as every bit as outrageous.

    Like


  125. gunslingergregi

    I’m not sure what you mean by an impact on feminisits. I am struck by the fact that Roissy’s discussion of rape ends the idea that feminists must agree with her definition or continue to be discredited.

    That’s odd. First, she didn’t give a definition. Second, is her concern really to discuss rape, or to set up what she sees as battle lines?

    I don’t usually like these psychoanalytic analyses, but it does seem to me that Rossy is very angry about not being heard.

    So I see the piece as, as it were, shards in an archaelogical site, all signs of a past battle we haven’t witnessed.

    Since the question I’ve been asking myself is about the hostility a lot of young women feel toward feminism, I’m now asking myself if its because they feel they’ve been embattled and can’t get heard.

    OK, what real battle might a young woman have experienced where she couldn’t be heard? Not with her mother, by any chance??

    Yikes, is the anger with feminism, accompanied by all sorts of misunderstandings of what we’re about, really anger at, and rejection of, her mother?!?!

    Well, like I said, I don’t do Freud…

    Like


  126. on July 6, 2009 at 6:01 pm Epoxytocin No. 87

    James,

    FeministX “Advice to women- don’t drink. Ever. You’ll be skinny, have low numbers and have a good girl image.”
    ==== Excellent advice.

    Yeah. But note the word “image”.

    I don’t know how long you’ve lurked here (I don’t think I’ve ever seen you post), but, feministx is all about projecting certain images in order to sucker some “genetically ideal man” into marriage with her otherwise exclusively lesbian man-hating self.
    In other words, the biggest reason she doesn’t drink is because drinking might punch enough holes in that particular levee for her vitriol to start rushing out.

    This is precisely why the ideal girl is someone who almost never drinks, but is not opposed to the occasional buzz in a private, intimate moment. The more facets of her that you get to see, the better.

    Like


  127. on July 6, 2009 at 6:02 pm Gunslingergregi

    ””””””””aoefe,
    You know why?? He got laid a couple of days ago and all the fight has left him. he he””””””””””’

    He is learning to fuck like the devil.

    That is why I say sluts and whores doing gods work.

    Not to accuse his woman of being either just sayin

    he he he

    Like


  128. on July 6, 2009 at 6:04 pm Epoxytocin No. 87

    jj

    You must be from the feminist philosophers site. Welcome to the jungle.

    Since the question I’ve been asking myself is about the hostility a lot of young women feel toward feminism

    Is there a lot of “hostility … toward feminism” from young women?
    Apathy, sure, but… hostility?
    Including ACTIVE rejection of the unfair advantages for women that feminism has achieved?

    If so, please do tell about it. I’m curious, as doubtless are many others.

    Like


  129. @jj

    “I am struck by the fact that Roissy’s discussion of rape ends the idea that feminists must agree with her definition or continue to be discredited.”

    I’m confused are you calling Roissy a woman? If so you might want to read some of HIS posts prior to commenting. You’ll get a better feel for what this site is about.

    Like


  130. on July 6, 2009 at 6:11 pm Steve Johnson

    I’ve got a short commute in NYC and take a subway line to the last stop in Manhattan.

    My subway pickups have basically been start either making eyes or talking on the train, continue on the walk out of the station, number close at her office or mine. All morning sarges. Never even opened on a subway ride in the afternoon.

    Like


  131. on July 6, 2009 at 6:11 pm Gunslingergregi

    “””””””””””””on July 6, 2009 at 6:01 pm jj
    gunslingergregi

    I’m not sure what you mean by an impact on feminisits. I am struck by the fact that Roissy’s discussion of rape ends the idea that feminists must agree with her definition or continue to be discredited.”””””””””””””””””””

    Well it put you on defense and the best defense is a good offense as you tried to get the gals to do.

    Is that passive aggression with calling him a her.
    I thought you were supposed to be nice. he he he

    Like


  132. @jj

    Do you moderate the Feminist Philosophy site? I was just there and saw your name and avatar in some of the comments.

    Like


  133. @james, epoxy- yeah, she’s a true piece of work, and i was a little miffed to see her back today. bad news, because female trolls usually get fed here, at least for a little while. the regulars have her number, though.

    @epoxy87- OK, a negotiation. Negotiation between which two parties? Feminist interest groups and their non-existent “masculist” counterparts? prosecutors and defense attorneys? rape accusees and their representatives in Congress or state legislatures? actually all these probably happen (except the first, alas.) again the emotional nature of rape and the default “white knighting” of both sexes (lurker had something good on this on the other thread) feeds the anti-male bias, the default assumption that the man is always lyng and the woman is always telling the truth. because, you know, they’re made of sugar and spice and everything nice.

    how do we get there from here? good question. the outrage you touched on and exhibited is a good start.

    Like


  134. on July 6, 2009 at 6:15 pm Gunslingergregi

    ”””””””””Epoxytocin No. 87
    jj

    You must be from the feminist philosophers site. Welcome to the jungle.

    Since the question I’ve been asking myself is about the hostility a lot of young women feel toward feminism

    Is there a lot of “hostility … toward feminism” from young women?
    Apathy, sure, but… hostility?
    Including ACTIVE rejection of the unfair advantages for women that feminism has achieved?

    If so, please do tell about it. I’m curious, as doubtless are many others.”””””””””””””’

    Epoxy on fire.

    Like


  135. really? a feminist site moderator lurking *here*? in enemy territory? very interesting. stick around, we’ll relieve you of your false belief system. 😉

    Like


  136. on July 6, 2009 at 6:23 pm Gunslingergregi

    Maybe we should go post stuff and see if it gets erased?

    Like


  137. @Gunslinger:

    “Your at the party and some guy tries to rape you. Real rape not fake. How could he possibly accomplish it if you fought back and didn’t want it.”

    REAL RAPE AS OPPOSED TO FAKE RAPE.

    It’s ok, I know what you were talking about. It sounded funny.

    Well,
    a) He could be a lot stronger.
    b) there could be more than one guy. In which case, you’re screwed. Literally. ;-;

    Also, in instances of terror, some people choke up. Can’t scream, can’t respond. Think, a group of people riding a roller coaster. Some have their hands up, screaming, enjoying the thrill. Others, gripping the lapbars, mouth shut, eyes wide open.

    Not everyone responds aggressively to fear.

    Like


  138. Epoxytocin No. 87 – yes, there’s quite a bit of hostility toward feminism on the part of young women. I’m afraid I’ve only got a few minutes, so I can’t really look up that much, but we looked at a poll of women on feminism in
    http://feministphilosophers.wordpress.com/2008/11/19/feminism-and-labels/

    I think that assuming someone is a woman is hardly being impolite. So I won’t apologize, but merely indicate that the analysis should be modified. Men’s primal experience of not being heard is with their mothers, earlier feminists used to insist. Hence the hostility. That actually doesn’t sound too bad, especially when the hostility is coupled with remarked about being agreed with.

    And I am one of many writers at FeministPhilosophers.
    I must now travel about 50 miles to get home!
    Nice talking with you all!

    Like


  139. “very common at women’s colleges, and some crunchy schools, and abhorred by “true” lesbians.”

    I heart those girls. Nubile supple teenage college girls. mmm.

    I won’t drink. Leaves more for them. mmm.

    Like


  140. on July 6, 2009 at 6:36 pm Tupac Chopra

    Somewhat OT:

    Women HATE HATE HATE betas.

    Like


  141. on July 6, 2009 at 6:38 pm Gunslingergregi

    Mandy again you are at a party. There are 20 people there how are you going to get raped.

    I even said before that if cigstash was actually getting raped I would go and stop it.

    Now at a party. There will be men there to stop it if they hear you scream.

    Now if you go off to a room and get naked what are you doing there?

    I was at a gangbang and if the woman would have started screaming that she didn’t want to have sex. I would have stopped it. Maybe would have had to bust some caps. Now she wanted to be gangbanged this is not as unusual as you would like to believe. Doesn’t mean she would get gangraped.

    Another scenario,
    Unless she is stupid and walks up to her boyfriend and smashes him in head with a can of coke on the basketball court and almost everyone jumped on her (not me). This was different scenerio. She still didn’t get raped but did get touched. Then it was over.

    Like


  142. @jj —

    Drive safely, and welcome to the jungle 🙂

    Like


  143. @tupac

    But the article also said: “Although the brave altruist was the most popular in each category, brave non-altruists – selfish action men in the mould of James Bond – were highly favoured for one-night stands or short affairs. “The common belief that women are drawn to lovable rogues may therefore have some substance, but only for short-term liaisons. For long-term relationships, a less selfish partner is preferred.”

    Like


  144. on July 6, 2009 at 6:52 pm Epoxytocin No. 87

    Epoxytocin No. 87 – yes, there’s quite a bit of hostility toward feminism on the part of young women. I’m afraid I’ve only got a few minutes, so I can’t really look up that much, but we looked at a poll of women on feminism

    Yeah, but, this is the problem.

    Only a small minority of women actually identify as “feminists” anymore, but you damn well better bet that VERY few women would want to roll back the parts of feminism that are egregiously damaging to men. Such as affirmative action for women (NO reason for this, anywhere, ever). Or nebulously written harassment / “hostile environment” laws. I’ll avoid mentioning family law, since most of the young women in question probably haven’t even thought much about that yet.

    And those are only baby steps.

    The problem used to be easier to identify, because the people causing the problem would openly identify themselves. Now you have to pick ’em out based on their behavior and character, something that’s often not possible until the situation has already reached crisis levels.

    Like


  145. on July 6, 2009 at 6:55 pm Epoxytocin No. 87

    But the article also said: “Although the brave altruist was the most popular in each category, brave non-altruists – selfish action men in the mould of James Bond – were highly favoured for one-night stands or short affairs. “The common belief that women are drawn to lovable rogues may therefore have some substance, but only for short-term liaisons. For long-term relationships, a less selfish partner is preferred.”

    That’s exactly the point that Tupac is trying to make.

    Since the study JUXTAPOSED “one-night stands” and “affairs” (!) with long-term relationships, there is no doubt that many respondents, subconsciously or not, thought of “long-term relationships” and “affairs” side-by-side.

    It would be interesting to see which types the women would pick if they were restricted to ONE hypothetical long-term relationship, with NO affairs or flings.
    I know which way I’d bet.

    Like


  146. on July 6, 2009 at 6:57 pm Tupac Chopra

    aoefe:

    “The common belief that women are drawn to lovable rogues may therefore have some substance, but only for hot sex. For long-term relationships, a more trainable partner is preferred.”

    FTFY

    Like


  147. @epoxy

    I think you’d be right.

    Like


  148. Mandy! XD:

    No it isn’t about that. I don’t think. Rape, the real kind, leaves all kind of trauma and stress on the individual.

    Yes, it does. Horrible. Surviveable.

    I know that if it happened to me I’d probably commit suicide afterwards. I don’t know how I’d continue going on. It’s like a violation of the soul. I don’t think that’s flattering at all. It’s kind of like saying,”Hey bitch, I don’t care if you don’t want to, you’re going to have to do it anyway.” It’s a huge violation of someone’s body.

    I don’t know. I’m deathly terrified of it. ._.’

    Mandy, my lovely girl, my lovely beautiful girl, my lovely clever girl who has so much to give to the world.

    No.

    Do what you can to avoid but not to the extent of locking yourself away. If there is such a thing as someone deserving or asking for it, it will never be a girl like you. If it happens, what happened was that you lost a physical fight. Women have been raped, almost inevitably, and they survive. For some, it was a fact of life. They moved on from it.

    We are built to bear it.

    You are much stronger than that.

    Don’t buy into the myth — built up by feminists and extreme traditonalists alike — that it is the end of your life. It is something to despair at, get angry justice for, something to face, then having done what could be done, it is time to move on.

    You still have in you what makes you you. You can still take care of people and love them.

    It is horrible, dirtier, more psychological than most physical assaults. The risks of STDS, pregnancy, but you can deal with those if they happen.

    But it will only effect and reach into your soul if you let it. Your soul is yours. Your soul is untouchable.

    And they are not worth one iota more of mental suffering than you care to give or remember. It is something to bear and survive.

    But not as much as they want to tell you it is.

    And believe me, it gets wiped out by future memories and happy ones.

    A woman like you? You can bear it. And it can be just one memorable (or not!) page in your life: significant but not and never your story.

    You may not like me saying this. But you letting it give you too much suffering, wallowing in it, to the extent of suicide. That will give much bigger hurt and suffering to those and those you love and whom love you. You know they will get you through it too, if you let them and unashamedly ask.

    Depriving the world of you, or a happy you. That is the unforgivable crime and that is something noone who loves you can recover from.

    Like


  149. Flashman:

    Did you use any particular books/DVDs to improve your body language?

    Like


  150. on July 6, 2009 at 6:59 pm Epoxytocin No. 87

    Bhetti, you are the type of woman who gives hope that all is not lost.

    Like


  151. In short, David has a no drunk girl policy due to legal and moral reasons. Besides, a drunk girl is impaired, and her selection while drunk implies that I am an inferior choice. She could beg for sex while drunk, and I will refuse to have sex with her.

    attractive women dress more than half naked- short micro skirts, and their boobs are almost hanging out- before this year I would be afraid to look at them, for fear of being labeled a pervert- or worse.

    Why have you turned against the teachings of the Church? As the leader of the Church, David always keeps his head down in the presence of these women as an example to all of his other fellow betas.

    What’s funny about this is I have some black friends that grew up in some poor neighborhoods, and they have no problems checking women out, and when I was younger I even thought they were perverts for accosting women in this way!

    That sounds like my cousin and I whenever we’re walking around. He didn’t grow up with his dad while I did, but it’s not as if somebody sits you down to teach this to you.

    yuk. what sane person wants to be in a ltr with a woman

    My point exactly! Women are good for sex OR hugs, but not both.

    I always thought the LUG phenomenon was more abut (1) fashionable lesbianism, (2) avoiding complicated romantic relationships with young men to focus on studies, (3) rebellion, (4) limiting unwanted male attention.

    From what I observed via Wellesley Queen, I’d argue that 2 and 4 were pretty much the main reasons behind LUG. In the case of 2, LUG serves a similar role that porn and masturbation serve for men like myself, except that the LUGs are only doing this on a temporary basis, while men like myself just want to permanently detach ourselves from sexual dependence on women.* Case 4 describes women who are just holding out for alpha males which was rather common at Wellesley given that the only boys on campus were the MIT exchange students and the losers who couldn’t get laid on their own majority female campuses.

    *”We must reduce our reliance on foreign sex organs…”

    Like


  152. This study would seem to support Roissy’s assertion about prostitution lowering the numbers of rapes:

    Prostitution and Sex Crimes
    April 8, 2004
    Kirby R. Cundiff

    Download PDF File of the Full Paper

    Abstract: In this paper I examine the hypothesis that the frequency of rape is increased when another source of sex (prostitution) is limited or unavailable. To test this theory I regressed the rape rate in available OECD countries against a proxy for the availability of prostitution. The relationship was found to be anti-correlated at about the 90% confidence level. Using this model, it is estimated that if prostitution were legalized in the United States, the rape rate would decrease by roughly 25% for a decrease of approximately 25,000 rapes per year.

    Introduction

    In this paper I examine the hypothesis that rape is caused, at least in part, by the lack of other available sexual outlets. This could be at the time of the rape or due to attitudes created in the rapist earlier in life. This hypothesis is tested by regressing the rape rate in available Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) countries against a proxy for the availability of sex through prostitution. OECD countries were picked in an attempt to minimize the economic differences between the countries in the sample. To measure the availability of prostitution in a given country, I divided the monthly per capita income by an estimate of the low-end price of a prostitute in a given country. The data for prostitution prices comes for the World Sex Guide, which includes data about prostitution prices reported by men who have hired prostitutes all over the world. The data for the homicide rate comes from the International Crime Statistics, the Statistical Abstracts of the United States, and The World Factbook of Criminal Justice Systems.

    There are different theories as to why men rape. Researchers advocating the “power thesis” believe that the primary motivation leading to rape is the male desire to “keep women in their place” and to preserve sexual role inequality through violence. (Brownmiller) Other researchers have conducted surveys of rapists that indicate that “lust” was “the primary motive for predatory rape.” (Stevens) For a general discussion of these topics see a standard textbook such as Schmalleger, Criminal Justice. While this analysis does indicate that the availability of prostitution does decrease the frequency of rape, it does not necessarily distinguish between the two theories of motivation for rape. After all, a man could be paying a prostitute both to satisfy lust, and for the illusion of dominance over women.

    Analysis

    I regressed the rape rate in available OECD countries against both the availability of prostitution in a country and the homicide rate. To measure the availability of prostitution in a given country, I divided the monthly per capita income by an estimate of the low-end price of a prostitute in a given country. The one variable model gave the following equation:

    R=12.0870 – 0.1070*I

    where R is the rape rate per 100,000 people and I is the monthly income in units of prostitution encounters. The statistical significance of the constant is (t = 4.8384) and of I is (t = -1.7288) making this result significant beyond the 90% confidence level. I also did a multiple regression analysis of the rape rate against the homicide rate and the availability of sex through prostitution to try and remove a general propensity for violence in a country. The results follow:

    R = 7.70795 + 1.4422*H – 0.0935*I

    where H is the homicide rate per 100,000 in the country. The constant has a t-stat of 1.7615, H has a t-stat of 1.17775 and I has a t-stat of –1.500 making I of borderline statistical significance at the 90% confidence level and the other variables not significant. The two “independent” variables are statistically independent with a t-stat of –0.8334.

    Conclusion

    There are, of course, many problems with this data. Rape is a crime that regularly goes unreported and what is considered rape in one countryís data set may not be considered rape in another countryís data set. The homicide rate also suffers from being defined differently in different countries – I have corrected for this problem to the best of my abilities by using multiple data sets. Given all of these problems, the analysis seems to support the hypothesis that the rape rate could be lowered if prostitution was more readily available. This would be accomplished in most countries by the legalization of prostitution. In the United States where prostitution is illegal, the low-end price for most prostitutes is about $200 and the monthly per capita income is $2,820. In Amsterdam, Netherlands where prostitution is legal the price is $30. If prostitution were legalized in the United States it is rational to assume that prices would resemble those in the Netherlands, this would result in a change in I of 80 and a decrease in the rape rate of 8.6 per 100,000. The population of the United States if roughly 300 million so this should result is a decrease of approximately 25,000 rapes per year.

    Like


  153. on July 6, 2009 at 7:05 pm Epoxytocin No. 87

    David A,

    while men like myself just want to permanently detach ourselves from sexual dependence on women.

    The less a guy gets laid, the more sexually dependent he is on women.

    True story.

    Like


  154. Don’t buy into the myth — built up by feminists and extreme traditonalists alike — that it is the end of your life.

    It’s probably the end of your sexual life since the deep trauma will basically ensure that you’ll be afraid of men and unable to enjoy sex in the future. Sadly, you’ll become the dreaded cat lady…

    Like


  155. @bhetti/mandy

    “For some, it was a fact of life. They moved on from it.
    We are built to bear it.”

    Bhetti is right. I have a friend horribly raped at 17, she was a virgin, (referred to it yesterday in the other thread), married with three beautiful children now, has a great life. She was fortunate to see her rapist locked up (for a short time), but she is able to talk about it and without shame I might add. We, humans, are capbable of handling more than we think we can bear.

    Are you a Christian? I thought I saw you reference it in an earlier thread. God promised his people he wouldn’t give them anything more than they could bear – so rest in that too. 🙂

    Like


  156. The less a guy gets laid, the more sexually dependent he is on women.

    If I’m not getting laid, then it’s obvious that I’m not wasting my time chasing women.

    Like


  157. on July 6, 2009 at 7:11 pm Virginia Gentleman

    James O.:

    In the real world, how many Jessica Alba types who are bi or gay want a butch? Practically none?

    If by “Jessica Alba types”, you mean attractive women, I can think of several:

    -Fiona Shaw and Saffron Burrows.

    -Rena Brannan and Sophie Ward.

    -Ellen DeGeneres and Portia de Rossi.

    -Christine Marinon and Cynthia Nixon.

    None of the latter women—except perhaps Burrows in her prime, say about Deep Blue Sea or Enigma—are absolute knockouts, but they’re not entirely hideous, either, unlike their chosen significant others. I’ve been told that jealousy colors my analysis, so make of it what you will.

    Like


  158. @DA

    You are dependent on women in porn are you not?

    Like


  159. on July 6, 2009 at 7:17 pm Epoxytocin No. 87

    David

    If I’m not getting laid, then it’s obvious that I’m not wasting my time chasing women.

    Read your own links. Maybe you aren’t chasing women, but you’re definitely dependent on them.
    You write entire blog posts about your random sightings of the prized quarry (even if that quarry isn’t terribly worthy of prizing).
    Etc.

    If you were getting laid on the regular, you would eventually adopt a “whatever” attitude toward sex and hot women. It’s like your beloved railroad trains: you miss one, no big deal, the next one will be by in 15 minutes (5 minutes, if it’s rush hour).

    You would. Trust me.

    And once you have that attitude, it’s a lot easier to find a woman who’s worth your time when you want “hugs”, and conversation, and possibly even a big old style family.

    You’ve got a lot of work to do on yourself, though, seeing as you can’t even enjoy the things that you enjoy.
    It’s never too late to start, although, the longer you wait, the harder it’s going to get.

    Go, son. Better yourself.
    You aren’t ignorant of reality like the SWPL crowd, so you don’t have that excuse.
    This is the last time I will ever address your hiding-from-the-world nonsense.
    Go.

    Like


  160. You are dependent on women in porn are you not?

    Of course, but that doesn’t count as I’m not having direct sex with women. Watching porn doesn’t require me to go meet, attract, seduce, and arouse women.

    Like


  161. on July 6, 2009 at 7:22 pm Gunslingergregi

    ”””””””From z’s article posted,
    Using this model, it is estimated that if prostitution were legalized in the United States, the rape rate would decrease by roughly 25% for a decrease of approximately 25,000 rapes per year.””””””””””””

    Nice so who cares about woman so much again. For the children for the woman.

    Except having prostitution legal increases the mans power. He doesn’t need to find a woman to say yes. Or he can go on twenty dates to get to know a woman if he can get sex for 30 bucks a pop down the street. This might help some woman not feel like they need to give it up right away.

    Can’t have that can we.

    Like


  162. Bhetti; Mandy

    Very beautiful and wise thoughts Bhetti.

    Very true.

    True just as much if said to you.

    Beautiful girl. In every way.

    Listen Mandy. Oh so bright, chaste and pretty girl, who’s attracted to strong and in some ways traditional men. Special girl, who’ll be a wonderful companionate wife to someone, I’m quite sure. Even if what you fear happened. Which it won’t.

    As well, if you make clear you’re being raped, I can damn well assure you that one hell of a lot of men would come to your defense and pull that fucker off you, and deal with him.

    I sure as hell would.

    Like


  163. @ Doug
    Well, it’s abhorred by true lesbians by way of working to shame converts while in college against “backsliding” as their exit draws near or occurs.
    It’s a tool to make the lesbian conversion permanent, they hope, much more than a filter against all but the most unshakably lesbian to begin with. Oh no. Suck them in first.

    I agree that there was some dismissal of women who “went back” to men, and an encouragement to not do so. But, in my experience, there was also some dismissal of women with previous hetero inclinations. But I am no expert.

    @Steven Johnson, I’m impressed/surprised. I’ve never really even seen attempts in the am, though I’m usually sunk into my book/music and might have missed it.

    Like


  164. aoefe

    But the article also said: “Although the brave altruist was the most popular in each category, brave non-altruists – selfish action men in the mould of James Bond – were highly favoured for one-night stands or short affairs. “The common belief that women are drawn to lovable rogues may therefore have some substance, but only for short-term liaisons. For long-term relationships, a less selfish partner is preferred.”

    So therefore women want the “brave altruist” to fall back on and provide them with sustenance after their torrid flings with “selfish action men” burn out.

    How convenient. If every husband could have a forgiving wife who did all the work in the house and nursed the children without complaint while he was free to go out on a rip about town do you think guys would complain? Of course not. How is that any different from the female fantasy?

    I’ll tell you how: the man who services the errant women gets a much better deal than the one who is faithful to his wife and hands over his hard-earned wages. But even he doesn’t begin to compare to the woman who plays it both ways; she can rob her loyal man at the point of a policeman’s gun even as she enjoys copulation with whatever man, woman or beast indulges the dark, damp cavernous seat of her soul.

    Like


  165. on July 6, 2009 at 7:41 pm Epoxytocin No. 87

    @ Welmer

    I’ll tell you how: the man who services the errant women gets a much better deal than the one who is faithful to his wife and hands over his hard-earned wages. But even he doesn’t begin to compare to the woman who plays it both ways; she can rob her loyal man at the point of a policeman’s gun even as she enjoys copulation with whatever man, woman or beast indulges the dark, damp cavernous seat of her soul.

    Soul, huh?
    You’re softening up on us buddy

    Like


  166. on July 6, 2009 at 7:44 pm Tupac Chopra

    lol

    Like


  167. on July 6, 2009 at 7:45 pm Tupac Chopra

    “Soul of a woman was created below” – Led Zep

    Like


  168. Slight off topic –

    Roissy and all – anyone notice the photos on Drudge of Obama and Medvedev? I immediately thought of the previous Alpha-Compare-and-Contrast between Bush & Putin; and that Obama was not coming off well.

    Seems like David Satter over at the Corner had similar thoughts…

    “”””Russian audiences don’t care much about the details of nuclear-arms reductions but they are watching the body language of Obama and Medvedev to see who is the demandeur and who is the boss. So far, it’s not looking too good for the U.S. Obama slaps Medvedev on the back and looks at Medvedev while Medvedev looks away.””””

    http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OTY3ZjU5NDExMjRiOGM0MTEzZDg1OTE2YTllOWJlZGQ=

    B.

    Like


  169. Virginia Gentleman: I googled the couples you listed. Yikes! Can’t argue with those photos. In each couple, one is clearly “the man.”

    As I noted, I was merely flappin’ me lips.

    Like


  170. on July 6, 2009 at 7:53 pm The Older Man

    Game in BK

    1) for morning crowded subway game use the “wink” liberally
    2) if you keep screwing up in the middle use the salesmans trick of “assume the sale”.

    Its like riding your skateboard downhill at high speed, yes you will get the death wobbles mid way down , but you’ll only fall off if you worry about it…. If you focus and ride 20 in front of the board you’ll do fine.

    3) Welmer, I think many men are being disingenuous on the whole “Bad boy” v.s. “Nice Guy” point…

    … Afterall since about age 5 didn’t we rather hangout with “Bad Boys” wasn’t it more fun and exciting???

    Didn’t we learn to see thru the “Nice Guy” in Primary(or Elementary) School????

    Arn’t we all reading “Bad Boy” books like the game or MM over the bible and having a fun ride along the way???

    Like


  171. Maybe you aren’t chasing women, but you’re definitely dependent on them.

    I am not dependent on them for the purpose of securing an orgasm. I am sadly dependent on them for friendship and hugs.

    If you were getting laid on the regular, you would eventually adopt a “whatever” attitude toward sex and hot women.

    The problem with being laid on a regular basis is that you become used to it, and to maintain the high of that orgasm, you’re forced to return back to the meat-markets to meet, attract, seduce, and arouse more women. Those of us who are smart enough to masturbate avoid that work while achieving orgasm.

    And once you have that attitude, it’s a lot easier to find a woman who’s worth your time when you want “hugs”, and conversation, and possibly even a big old style family.

    She’s only good for hugs or fucks, but not both.

    You’ve got a lot of work to do on yourself, though, seeing as you can’t even enjoy the things that you enjoy.

    Back then I was miserable because I wanted the impossible. I wanted to have a brand new car to go roadgeeking on new roads in without fear of the state police pulling me over for speeding*. Now, I’m miserable for another reason that I’ll probably mention on my betarailfan blog to avoid seriously monopolizing a post here at Roissy’s place…

    *Not to mention a new DSLR with low light capabilities to film trains. Disregard the fact that my friend was too busy with work to pick up her phone and hang out.

    Like


  172. on July 6, 2009 at 7:55 pm Willard Libby

    “Woman is a temple built over a sewer,
    the gateway to the devil.
    Woman, you are the devil’s doorway.
    You should always go in mourning and in rags.”

    Tertullian

    Like


  173. [email protected]

    And because nobody ask for sex directly, a women is raped when
    1) She is penetrated or someone has sex with her while she IS STRUGGLING against the advances of the “rapist”.

    I suspect you haven’t had a broad enough range of sexual experiences to know that many women struggle against sex as a means of saying “try harder, I’m not done seeing how serious you are about me yet”.

    Struggle against sex can be ambigious, and a guy can genuinely not know that it means stop. It’s not as clear as a safety word. It’s only clear when she really struggles, the way a man would if he was being raped.

    When women squirm and squeal and protest a shocked NO!, that can be merely fast foreplay.

    Like


  174. on July 6, 2009 at 8:00 pm The Older Man

    Tupac Chopra
    “Soul of a woman was created below” – Led Zep

    Again this is disingenuous

    Afterall would’nt most of us leave our jobs tommorrow for a 100K pay rise elsewhere?

    Unless you have the honor and valor of a solider or fireman, paramedic, (honest?) cop and truely sacrifice yourselves for others I dont think you can stand in judgement

    Like


  175. Epoxytocin No. 87

    @welmer

    Soul, huh?
    You’re softening up on us buddy

    Damn! And I thought I was giving the radfems a run for their money…

    😉

    Like


  176. Virginia Gentleman–

    Cynthia Nixon

    Wretch.

    The harridan uber feminist redhead of Sex and the City?

    Who’s similar elsewhere?

    If the God of Evolution struck every similar woman dead tomorrow I’d give thanks for a month.

    (Well a week. A day. Ok, but I’d be real happy though.)

    Like


  177. I suspect you haven’t had a broad enough range of sexual experiences to know that many women struggle against sex as a means of saying “try harder, I’m not done seeing how serious you are about me yet”.

    And why should any man play such silly games with a woman? Once you say no, I’m not going to bother, and I’ll simply move on instead of dealing with your bullshit and mind games. Sex is not worth that much frustration.

    Like


  178. Tupac Chopra

    “Soul of a woman was created below” – Led Zep

    Below the belt at least.

    Like


  179. As if rape doesn’t happen to men…

    Like


  180. @welmer

    I wasn’t looking at the article as if the women wanted affairs, which may have been my error. I was thinking that prior to commitment a woman would enjoy a short fling with the one type and would prefer settling down with the second. I understand the points you are making. Very crappy indeed for the man who settles down, provides a living, security and selflessness only to have it thrown in his face by a woman who’ll callously disregard it. Not fair and a woman who would do that is absent a soul IMHO.

    Like


  181. @Welmer:

    It’s funny because plenty would argue the same about men.

    Yes, nowadays, some people are only following their biology, and thinking with what’s between their legs and not between their ears, but not everyone is that way. 😦

    Like


  182. @ S-

    I always perceived a sort of disdain from genuine feminists toward fashionable lesbians, who as they would probably say, reinforce male patriarchal fantasies.

    They may say this in theory, but from what I’ve seen even the most hardcore lesbians will circle like sharks around a conventionally ‘hot’ girl who claims to be bi or les. And yes, I was kind of overstating my point (of course I don’t think there’s a widespread conspiracy) but don’t you think lesbians would benefit from more LUGs rather than less?

    @ doug1 –

    Are guys kicked out or hauled up on University “honor code” or whatever charges on the basis of these kinds of feminist defined downward rape charges, that you know of?

    As far as I know these cases are dealt with internally as an honor code violation, to avoid the bad publicity of a criminal trial. Usually they result in academic probation or expulsion. In the case of the false accusation, the ‘victim’ was put on probation and ordered to undergo psychiatric counseling. She claimed a man had broken into the girls’ bathroom and sprayed bleach in her eyes, carved her face up and raped her. She later admitted they were self-inflicted injuries and she just wanted attention. Pretty weird pathology there. They still put a lock on every female bathroom and gave us special keys to open them. I can’t overstate the overall atmosphere of paranoia and ‘rape hysteria’ on that campus.

    @ gunslinger-

    I would actually be quite happy if nobody ever considers me ‘pretty enough’ to rape. That’s an ego boost I could quite live without. And as for fighting back, I think many women are paralyzed by fear or worried they’ll be injured if they resist. I’ve read the rates of completed rapes drop drastically when victims resist, with no significant impact on injury rates. For that reason I would fight back viciously, and my father and brothers would possibly hunt him down and kill him afterward. The cost-benefit ratio would not be worthwhile for a potential rapist.

    And a woman can indulge in rape or ravishment fantasies without wanting to be actually raped. I see no reason why these should be taboo. 🙂

    Like


  183. on July 6, 2009 at 8:19 pm Tupac Chopra

    The Senile Man:

    Afterall would’nt most of us leave our jobs tommorrow for a 100K pay rise elsewhere?

    Money does not occupy the same psychological headspace as does love.

    Like


  184. on July 6, 2009 at 8:21 pm Gunslingergregi

    ””””””’on July 6, 2009 at 8:16 pm kalli0pe
    As far as I know these cases are dealt with internally as an honor code violation, to avoid the bad publicity of a criminal trial. ”””””””””””’

    Well my friend that was accused and I who was in the other room with her friend and another guy were not allowed on campus. Recieved nice letters telling us to stay the fuck out. The case was not brought to court since there was no evidence.

    Like


  185. on July 6, 2009 at 8:22 pm Willard Libby

    kalli0pe – And a woman can indulge in rape or ravishment fantasies without wanting to be actually raped. I see no reason why these should be taboo.

    “The second theory, which Meana frankly calls narcissism, posits a clear answer. We generally define rape as sex against the victim’s will. But a woman mentally aroused by a sexual assault fantasy isn’t thinking about the victim’s will. She’s thinking about the perpetrator’s. She’s imagining being wanted. That’s what she wants—and the fact that she wants it exposes the fantasy, by definition, as not really rape. The imaginary act arouses her not because the woman in the scenario doesn’t want it, but because the man does.”

    Like


  186. on July 6, 2009 at 8:24 pm Gunslingergregi

    ”””””””””’@ gunslinger-

    I would actually be quite happy if nobody ever considers me ‘pretty enough’ to rape. That’s an ego boost I could quite live without. And as for fighting back, I think many women are paralyzed by fear or worried they’ll be injured if they resist. I’ve read the rates of completed rapes drop drastically when victims resist, with no significant impact on injury rates. For that reason I would fight back viciously, and my father and brothers would possibly hunt him down and kill him afterward. The cost-benefit ratio would not be worthwhile for a potential rapist.

    And a woman can indulge in rape or ravishment fantasies without wanting to be actually raped. I see no reason why these should be taboo.
    ””””””””””””””””””””’

    I think many woman are just dead fish fucks and don’t do anything because they are dead fish fucks. If you don’t want it to happen and it is the most horrable thing that could happen you will fight it.

    Like


  187. on July 6, 2009 at 8:29 pm Gunslingergregi

    I am just not buying these poor american woman getting raped without a fight or seriously yelling or talking the word no over and over. These are people that are equal to men. I don’t buy it.

    Like


  188. I guess this ties into the other one about whether or not rape is about sex or power. I don’t see it as an either/or scenerio, but rather a combo of both, and possibly more of one or the other, given the individual situation. Even if a particular rape is inspired by sex, its the power equation that allows it to happen.

    But the question may be asked then, in a promiscuous culture such as we have here in the United States, how can rape be solely about sex, when sex is so available here? A frat boy doesn’t need to rape a girl at a party in order to have sex that same night. With little to no effort he can get it with consent with at least one girl at the party, I’m sure. If not, there are pay options. There are always options in the good ol’ USA, land of the free (sex).

    So really, if rape were solely about sex, I don’t think there would be any rape at all, at least in this country. There’s got to be something more in the dynamic than just sex.

    Like


  189. aoefe

    @welmer

    I wasn’t looking at the article as if the women wanted affairs, which may have been my error.

    Well, that all comes down to the demographics of the test group. But not really, in the big picture — I doubt wives would have responded all that differently from single women of the same age, race and social background.

    As Roissy has argued before, it’s all about incentives. People lust regardless. You give them a good excuse AND an incentive to act on it (e.g. current family law), and they will.

    Mandy! XD

    @Welmer:

    It’s funny because plenty would argue the same about men.

    Yes, nowadays, some people are only following their biology, and thinking with what’s between their legs and not between their ears, but not everyone is that way.

    Errm. Kinda. I couldn’t go out whoring and then have the cops remove a wife from the home and children at gunpoint because she was “agitated” by my exploits.

    My point is that women are rewarded for this behavior. Banging the plumber while the husband is at work is virtually guaranteed to result in a payout for women today, if they so please. America enforces a veritable cornucopia of vaginal fulfillment.

    For guys, therefore, it is better to hedge bets and stay single. So for you, Mandy, expect to either marry a fool or be used like the metro by a string of enlightened men. Might as well go for the fool — your kids might be dumb, but at least you can use the law to force him to pay for his mistake when you decide to feel “unhappy” and go off to get stuffed by dozens of other men.

    Like


  190. @Libby

    Violent consensual ravishment was a fact of life for many of the women in my late 20’s, early 30’s. Being able to make the “rape fantasy” come to life was an aphrodisiac of epic proportions in those days.

    My first wife liked nothing better than being taken, almost to the point of bruising. You can’t imagine my surprise early in the relationship when during an early sex encounter where we were quite uninhibited the following transpired:

    “Don’t hurt me [pregnant pause] too much.”

    So, I’m not so sure it’s about the perpetrator’s will as much as your quoted paragraph may indicate.

    Like


  191. on July 6, 2009 at 8:38 pm Virginia Gentleman

    doug1:

    What do you mean, “Whose similar elsewhere”?

    Mind you, Cynthia Nixon is best marked as “not hideous”, contradistinguished from “gorgeous” and so forth. She benefits, in my evaluation, from being virtually inseparable from the SATC quartet. Everyone agrees that Kristin Davis is a solid 8 or 9, and everyone agrees that Sarah Jessica Parker is the bottom of the barrel. Many may agree that Kim Cattrall is long past her prime.

    Nixon, by elimination, is neither ancient or horsefaced, so she earns second place by default. Given the evidence, I’m almost convinced that the notion of two objectively beautiful women in a homosexual relationship is a fiction created by pornographers and their fellow travelers.

    Like


  192. @Welmer:

    Oh, I think you might be referencing an article I haven’t read.

    I was talking about this comment in regards to women and where their souls are created:

    “Below the belt at least.”

    I don’t think that’s the case for everyone.

    “So for you, Mandy, expect to either marry a fool or be used like the metro by a string of enlightened men. Might as well go for the fool — your kids might be dumb, but at least you can use the law to force him to pay for his mistake when you decide to feel “unhappy” and go off to get stuffed by dozens of other men”
    Oh my, one choice, or the other? Not a third? or fourth choice?

    I think this is a false dilemma.

    And honestly, while some of you might derive pleasure from it, I don’t think that using women over and over forever is going to give you the biggest payback in the longrun. Or maybe, for a certain few it will, but not for everyone.

    I’m not saying that,”EVERYONE MUST GET MARRIED OR ELSE!” Just…

    I don’t know. Nevermind.

    Like


  193. Mandy: Not even a reassurance you’re thinking about it?

    Not even a dismissal to counter?

    Not even a hug, with this worried protectiveness over you?

    Nothing?

    😦

    Nevermind me and my emotional manipulation. Carry on. Random girl/woman slightly younger than me on the Internet. Whom I clearly don’t care about. [It’s difficult to restrain it if I feel it, ok?? ;)]

    DA: The reason why I created the Church is for you to just LINK.

    NOT WORTH IT. RIGHT THERE IN THE ARTICLES OF FAITH. CHRIST, DA. You’d think you’d want to spare yourself typing! You need your wrist for other activities!

    If there is something missing, just say the word. Srsly. The leader of Davidalexanderism must not be allowed to exert himself, lest he give the illusion he may actually cope with the energy and frustrations of a woman.

    If you poured all your frustration, persistence and typing with this site into.. heck, A DATING SITE, you’d probably be laid several times over by now with women adapting to your fetishes. You probably have, you shameless troll.

    Epoxytocin No. 87/Doug:

    To think that attitude was cemented by our host’s favourite “insane mooncow” aka the woman who said some things I found important aka Nicole aka Kthulah!

    Think men’s rights rejection of women has been the biggest thing that is hurting it, when it is a problem for both genders and both need to be deprogrammed.

    This isn’t just a man’s problem. A man’s problem is a woman’s problem. And vice versa.

    The genders as enemies rather than a team. Perhaps another feminist myth not properly dispelled.

    How many women did kill themselves because of the shameless magnifying of rape as a horror? How moral was it to distort it by applying it to every possible circumstance, as the biggest horror of all? Because noone is going to say ‘well, actually, I might rather be raped than have a baby killed. There’re worse things.’

    If women can deal with an abortion as loss of clump of lifeless cells, they can definitely more than trivialise rape into utter meaninglessness.

    When the real answer in both cases is somewhere in between horror and meaninglessness.

    Like


  194. Aoefe I wonder where Arpagus is? He’s had two threads practically screaming for his input and he’s nowhere to be found!

    LOLROF. I think he posted on his blog that the woman in question called him for round two. He said she made he feel like he had run the Boston marathon with lead pack of Kenyans and Ethiopians while drinking benadryl.

    Aoefe You know why?? He got laid a couple of days ago and all the fight has left him. he he

    Aoefe, arpagus is totally exhausted. He seems so relaxed and serene these days. Notice how his posts changed after he got some. Mu probably saved some poor woman.

    Like


  195. on July 6, 2009 at 8:46 pm The Older Man

    Tupac Chopra
    Money does not occupy the same psychological headspace as does love.

    Thats why your poor and i’m not

    Like


  196. @Bhetti:

    *snuggles*

    🙂

    Like


  197. Wait, Bhetti, I did respond to your post before, I just don’t know where it went!

    :O

    Like


  198. DA: Guess who the first member of your Church is?

    Like


  199. Mandy: Yay!! I feel all better now.

    Like


  200. White Girl–

    But the question may be asked then, in a promiscuous culture such as we have here in the United States, how can rape be solely about sex, when sex is so available here? A frat boy doesn’t need to rape a girl at a party in order to have sex that same night. With little to no effort he can get it with consent with at least one girl at the party, I’m sure. If not, there are pay options. There are always options in the good ol’ USA, land of the free (sex).

    So really, if rape were solely about sex, I don’t think there would be any rape at all, at least in this country. There’s got to be something more in the dynamic than just sex.

    Your logic sucks.

    Your brain power sucks.

    The thing that’s unquestionably uber promiscuous, aka hyper slut is you.

    Who wouldn’t want to emotionally commit to you?

    I couldn’t imagine.

    Like


  201. on July 6, 2009 at 8:57 pm Tupac Chopra

    Thats why your poor and i’m not

    Perhaps, but that’s beside the point you impotently tried to make.

    Like


  202. And why should any man play such silly games with a woman? Once you say no, I’m not going to bother,

    Meh. Some of my hottest fucks were with girls who said things like “maybe we shouldn’t” and “I’m not sure I’m ready” and such. I even banged a girl who emphatically said “NO” as I escalated the makeout and started undoing her jeans, but after I pulled her panties off she got on top of me rode me so hard she nearly ripped my dick out by the roots.

    You gotta read the girl right. If you see she’s getting hot for you and her eyes are on fire, her body language is guardedly open, she wants it.

    If she tenses up, gets the “dead eyes” and speaks in short toneless words, she doesn’t want it.

    Like


  203. chic noir: Three cheers for the anti-rape strategy of Game, as demonstrated recently with Arpagus’ lay with the help of Mu’min aka The Obsidian!!

    Mu’min = Believer.

    Belief is the key! That’s what I’m talking about!

    Like


  204. And in the category of “best example of a backhanded compliment”, the award goes to Doug, for

    You do have a rather nice body so some betas might enjoy it.

    Like


  205. on July 6, 2009 at 9:09 pm Gunslingergregi

    chic nor he doesn’t have that posted on his blog (:

    Dissapointing.

    Like


  206. Xsplat — oh yeah, Dougie is back with a vengance. This is the biggest bitchslap I’ve seen on this blog:

    Who wouldn’t want to emotionally commit to you?

    I couldn’t imagine.

    Like


  207. @Guns- I forgot to add j/k.

    @ bhetti-agreed 🙂 Maybe we should give Mu some type of e-award.

    Like


  208. @doug- Just as I got rid of it. Doug you’ve come down with it, don’t let it destroy you. Bhetti MD should give you an antiviral & plenty of love.

    @bhetti- congrats on your test scores my love.

    Like


  209. Mandy! You are right, there are always more than just 2 choices for anyone, don’t let anyone corner you into thinking it’s “either/or” and you have to decide now. There is no such dillemna and no such dichotomy. Especially here in the “land of the free”. You have choices.

    That being said, having too many choices might be what has killed us. When I read “game” material, be it either women or men playing it, the first and foremost thing that pops out to me is how desperate and lonely the human condition can be. Running from pillar to post, or club to club, trying to attract a man or a woman to spend just a little bit of time with us….. how low can we go?

    My take is that people have a huge hole, a huge vacuum inside of their souls due to feeling unloved or confused in their childhood. That could have come about due to any number of things; their parents’ divorce being one of the first ones on the list.

    As adults we are forever seeking ways to fill this emotional and spiritual void in our minds/hearts/souls/psyches. The game is just one example of that, there may be thousands of others.

    Imagine if we lived in a simpler world, where families were in-tact and functioned well. Where dating was simple and geared toward marriage, or maybe there was no “dating” at all, just the systematic promotion and arrangement of a stable and loving family life like the one our parents provided us???

    If only we could burn down Babylon and start all over. But alas. Here we are, playing games. LOL. And that to over the age of 30!!!

    I’m quite entertained, but feeling sympathetic at the same time.

    Like


  210. on July 6, 2009 at 9:31 pm Gunslingergregi

    Chic where did you see that written or our you emailing him now too. What you said he said is not on his site.

    Is chic attracted to a former wanna be rapist and trading personal emails?

    Like


  211. You need your wrist for other activities!

    Yes, I need my wrist to help hold my camera and hold the poles in the train, right?

    If you poured all your frustration, persistence and typing with this site into.. heck, A DATING SITE, you’d probably be laid several times over by now with women adapting to your fetishes. You probably have, you shameless troll.

    I’ve been rejected in the real world, why would I want more rejection online? And why would I put “must have nails, high heels, proclivity toward slutty clothes, and enough makeup skills to make yourself into a porn star” into an online profile. That would chase away everybody.

    And hell, match.com seems to send white girls who don’t want a black guy in their tri-weekly e-mails…

    DA: Guess who the first member of your Church is?

    Makes sense given the relationship with her beta friend…

    You gotta read the girl right. If you see she’s getting hot for you and her eyes are on fire, her body language is guardedly open, she wants it.

    Fuck that shit. Either she openly admits to it, or she doesn’t. I’m not going to even bother to attempt to interpret her shittier than WMATA Metrorail cab signals in order to figure out if she wants sex or not. Act like a rational adult, determine if you want to have sex with me or not, but don’t waste my time with your childish games.

    Like


  212. on July 6, 2009 at 9:46 pm Tupac Chopra

    DA:

    Act like a rational adult, determine if you want to have sex with me or not

    Sex is not rational.

    Like


  213. Sex is not rational.

    You’re white. Your IQ is high enough for it to be rational.

    Like


  214. Btw: I don’t know if I have ever asked a girl if- she wanted to fuck me- However once we are both naked- I always (always) ask her if she has a condom. Then I put it on. That’s my system.

    Like


  215. Doug needs and deserves lots of love, as well as outlets for all that passion.

    chic: Thank you, bless you, got your good luck forwarded to me which was a nice little letter of goodwill to my Island of delicious Doug and studious Study.

    PA:

    If she tenses up, gets the “dead eyes” and speaks in short toneless words, she doesn’t want it.

    TRUE STORY (copyright:LILGRL).

    Gentleman if you stop.

    But realise not everyone can read the cues.

    If she said no/resisted and didn’t like or want it, you would’ve rightly been in the wrong and up for beheading. There’re also cases where saying no + resisting even though she DOES want you but because of conflicting reasons e.g. family disapproval, virgin, doing it without a condom or some such, then she will still feel violated depending on how important these things are. Because she did resist and say no.

    So, a risky area and not one to heuristically apply. Must be completely sharp and on point with the nuances.

    DA: DO NOT EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE HIM!! THE DEVIL!! BIGGEST ENEMY OF YOUR WAYS!! His true skin is not white, but pure evil.

    Like


  216. on July 6, 2009 at 10:15 pm Steve Johnson

    Bhetti / Mandi

    re: terror of actual rape

    This disturbed the hell out of me so I’m going to share.

    There’s a theory that women are scared of and avoid actual rape while at the same time having rape fantasies because they are screening for men who are exceptionally good at rape. They don’t want the beta rapist who is clumsy and can’t close the deal, they want the overpowering man who takes what he wants and doesn’t care to hear a no.

    This actually fits the evidence. Women who are raped are likely to have orgasms, the biological purpose of which is to aid in sperm retention (if you’re orgasming, it’s your body’s way of saying “I want this guy’s sperm to make me pregnant”). So women can tell the alpha rapists from the beta rapists they try to avoid being raped.

    There’s even evidence from “date rape” situations. When a man attempts to force himself on a woman he knows and fails, she hates him and is likely to report it. When a man attempts to force himself on a woman and he succeeds, something like 80% of the time, the couple then goes on to have a long term relationship.

    Told ya, some sick shit lurking in women’s heads.

    Like


  217. Half Sigma on rape and internet porn: very persuasive numerical datat here:::::

    “Feminists wrong about causes of rape
    Rape is down 85% per capita since the early 1970s, and Tim Worstall explains the evidence which shows that more pornography is correlated with less rape.

    This is a topic I wrote about in 2006, but what seems to be different here is the internet evidence. From a study showing the change in rape between 1980 and 2000 (quoting Tim Worstall):

    Four states with lowest internet access Increase in rape of 53%

    Four states with highest internet access Decrease in rape of 27%

    Of course, the internet provides easy availability of all sorts of porn. Thus more internet access means more porn. And more porn means less rape.

    It seems obvious to me. Men who can release their sexual urges with pornography don’t need to use live women. Yet people resisted the obvious explanation, because it conflicted with feminist theories of rape, and the Christian Right doesn’t like pornography much either

    Feminists deny that rape is about men’s sexual urges; they say it’s about men seeking power and control and degrading women. I love it when feminists are proved wrong”

    me again……………………folks its very hard to argue with numbers this concrete

    Like


  218. But men have always had the option of masterbating to fantasy images in their minds for a release. What do you think is the difference between that and internet porn that would make for a difference in rape statistics?

    Since the availability of internet porn in India, rape statistics have actually risen. We don’t know if the statistics rose because more women are reporting the crime or if the crime itself has risen.

    Still, everyone around the world, internet or not, men have always had the option of release through masterbation and imagery.
    What’s so special about internet imagery?

    Like


  219. @ Steve Johnson-

    “Women who are raped are likely to have orgasms”

    “When a man attempts to force himself on a woman he knows and fails, she hates him and is likely to report it. When a man attempts to force himself on a woman and he succeeds, something like 80% of the time, the couple then goes on to have a long term relationship.”

    Please post a link to peer reviewed research that shows these statements to be accurate. I’m serious. I’ve never heard any of that before.

    Like


  220. white girl,

    my own two cents are this: when men know they can have sex with a prostitute and know they can watch a lot of high quality porn, they are assured of some kind of sexual relase that night of some kind

    the levels of frustratoin back in the 1960’s and 70’s when women were starting to wear revealing clothing, but porn and prostitutes were harder to obtain either financially or by means of a lack of supply must have made some men horny beyond belief

    these days men dont need to recall ‘images’ in their head, they can see brand new ones of very hot porn-babes all the time, and if they are willing to spend the money, can actually have sex with attractive prostitutes to relieve their urges.

    im not going to deny that there are not a few rapes carried out because a man wants to physically dominate a women, especially one he hates because she reminds him of whomever, but mostly rape would be about the extremely sexually frustrated men with no means to let the steam off.

    Rape being down 85% per 100,000 people or whatnot since 1970 is a very persuasive statistic in my opinon

    Like


  221. Everything has to be adjusted to culture. In India they claim the availability of porn has led to the rise in rape statistics.

    Correlations are not proof in either case, though the case could be made for both.

    Rape, not only is a crime but an ethical/moral issue as well. There are men who, no matter how frustrated and horny, would never rape a woman.

    I think there’s more dynamics to it than just “porn/no porn, frustration/release, sex/power”.

    Attitudes about women count for a lot.

    Like


  222. @white girl:

    quit spewing melodrama and think about things for a minute.

    When I read “game” material, be it either women or men playing it, the first and foremost thing that pops out to me is how desperate and lonely the human condition can be. Running from pillar to post, or club to club, trying to attract a man or a woman to spend just a little bit of time with us….. how low can we go?

    My take is that people have a huge hole, a huge vacuum inside of their souls due to feeling unloved or confused in their childhood…

    most men don’t study game because their souls are in need. they study game to attract women. this may be difficult for you to understand, because you are a woman and men have likely been trying to fuck you since you hit puberty. since female taste in men tends to cluster around the most desirable men – in the parlance of this site: the alphas – this means most men have to spend some time thinking about how to attract women.

    see how simple these answers can be when you just apply a little bit of logic?

    Like


  223. @kalli0pe:

    My perspective may be skewed not only because I don’t see too many LUGs at school, and because my school doesn’t have a strong “campus culture”. We’re in a big city, and the students tend to blend in with the young professionals. Even so, I primarily see dumpy lesbians with other dumpy lesbians. I went to “Slacks”, a les-bar in Toronto during Pride week (because the Village is the only decent place to party during Pride), and most of the women hitting on other women there were butch/dumpy/pretty but needed work. Again, that may be a biased POV because a lot of straight women (and men) were in the club that night, so they might have hit on other women they had a clear shot with. I always got the feeling lipsticks and femmes aren’t the hottest commodity as a lesbian? Maybe because so many lesbians ascribe to an alternative or counter-culture, and therefore appreciate an “edgier” or “raw” or “granola” look.

    Like


  224. “this means most men have to spend some time thinking about how to attract women.”

    The culture has failed them. Precisely my point.

    Like


  225. @kalli0pe:

    Nevermind. I just checked the w4w section on Craigslist and most of the demand seems to be for femmes.

    Like


  226. on July 6, 2009 at 11:22 pm Steve Johnson

    @kalli0pe

    I’ve loaned out my copy so I can’t check the bibliography but all the facts I listed above have been in peer reviewed papers and are referenced in “Sperm Wars” by Robin Baker.

    Like


  227. Steve

    There’s even evidence from “date rape” situations. When a man attempts to force himself on a woman he knows and fails, she hates him and is likely to report it. When a man attempts to force himself on a woman and he succeeds, something like 80% of the time, the couple then goes on to have a long term relationship.

    We’re back again to the question of what is force.

    A girlfriend of mine was seduced by forcibly and against her will pulling her pants off. And by playing the “no, really, I’m not going to fuck you, we’re just playing push and poke” game until we fucked. She never left my apartment and remains stuck on me like glue, even though I’m in another city with another girl now.

    Was it force? I was forceful, certainly. She did protest. She said no lots of times. Rape? Ya, in a good way. We play the Daddy no, daddy stop game all the time also.

    There came a point when it was time for her pants to come off. The only thing stopping us was propriety. It was my duty to not have propriety, for both of our sakes, and to take the lead. As a woman on her first date with a stranger, it would have been improper for her not to protest. So she did her job properly, and I did mine.

    Like


  228. I see I need to make myself more clear. In that situation there was not a feeling of rape. More of seduction under mild protest.

    Plenty of foreplay under mild protest until a moment of no more protest – just mild surprise at her own acceptance.

    After her pants came off, her delight only increased. She was more amazed that a man would have the balls to do that than against it.

    Like


  229. “But men have always had the option of masterbating to fantasy images in their minds for a release. What do you think is the difference between that and internet porn that would make for a difference in rape statistics?”

    @WhiteGirl —

    There is no comparison, in terms of male arousal, between an imagined image and a visual one. The visual is a few orders of magnitude more arousing. Just is. We men are *very* visual, and there’s a stark difference between “imagined” visual and actual eyeballing, in terms of arousal, generally speaking. Both work, but one is cooking with gas.

    The internet has taken porn — which as I say is per se more arousing than imagined images — and made it accessible in an (assumed to be) private way in the home with unlimited content available. No mental imagination can compete with that in terms of male arousal. The only thing that can is actual real life women, where again, men are actually eyeballing them.

    Like


  230. Steve Johnson:

    Of course it’s hot.

    It’s a thin line. Emotions are high. Fight or flight. Psychology is mixed. Drama. Everything’s at the surface. Risk. If she doesn’t want him, disaster. If she does, hot [well it is more subtle than that, what IS it that stopping her saying yes if so? there can be reasons, valid ones, psychologically damaging ones. Very, very thin line.].

    See PA. He seemed to like it too.

    What’s sick about it?

    It’s the difference between forcing you to have what you want and you don’t. The difference between chaining you at home away from you overworking yourself for a forced holiday that’s due and throwing you right into the thick of a stockmarket disaster you don’t want to face and have no clue how to deal with.

    Let’s see the stats.

    But no surprise here.

    Like


  231. On a similar but non-rape related note: Another girl who got quickly stuck on me was impressed that I played with her wet pussy twenty minutes after meeting her, while in the disco at the table where I sat down to talk to her.

    Another man was in that club that night – a guy who had been dating her for weeks, and had a crush on her.

    The moral is, don’t be a man boy. Don’t be polite. Don’t ask. Women think men who wait around until the woman says that she is ready to be weak.

    That girl came home with me that night and never left. I had to leave the country to get rid of her.

    Like


  232. “But the article also said: “Although the brave altruist was the most popular in each category, brave non-altruists – selfish action men in the mould of James Bond – were highly favoured for one-night stands or short affairs. “The common belief that women are drawn to lovable rogues may therefore have some substance, but only for short-term liaisons. For long-term relationships, a less selfish partner is preferred.””

    @aoefe —

    The Michigan study a few years ago indicated precisely that: women differ in their preferences based on the anticipated duration of the relationship, favoring cads for short term sex, and “dads” for LTRs. Borne out by experience, too, but studies back that up.

    Women are often stuck with the following dilemma: attracted to one type of man for short term sex, and another for LTR/parental investment. There are some men who offer both, but to be honest not many. So women trade off excitement for security.

    Men do this, too, of course. But because men are not hypergamous, but standard oriented, it is easier for us to find someone who is over the standard (“good enough”) in sexual attraction, yet having the other “partner qualities” than it is for women, because female feral sexual attraction is so hypergamous. Hypergamy exacerbates the trade-off issue for women greatly.

    Like


  233. on July 6, 2009 at 11:44 pm Steve Johnson

    xsplat

    You hit the nail on the head.

    So many things that women do they do just to test a man. A certain amount of physical and verbal resistance before sex fits into this category too.

    Like


  234. @Steve Johnson:

    I think you’re convoluting rape and assertion. As xsplat mentioned, oftentimes there is playful or even polite/expected/socially obligatory resistance. When the last guy I dated first came on to me sexually, I exasperatedly said, “I’m not sure we should do this.” After all, it was the second date. He persisted in a jocular, not creepy or violent manner, and we eventually did end up having sex. Again, you have to be astute at reading signals. If she’s saying “no” curtly, seriously, and giving you negative body language, she probably means what she says.

    When you’re in a relationship with someone, it’s also a different context, since I’m assuming your partner is used to reading your signals and body language. Same said partner and I were playfighting in bed at a later date, when he pinned my arms behind my back, and I begged him to stop for fear of serious injury. But somewhere in the middle of it, we both ended up getting turned on, and my body language and verbal cues indicated that.

    Like


  235. @al 7:36 “…in my experience…” Do tell.

    @kalli0pe/SJ- agreed, would be interesting to see some data on that.

    @heloise- you’re back and in top form. but this: “up for beheading” – a little extreme, no? not even castration, eh? you’re a mean one.

    @kalli0pe/S.- sorry to be obtuse, but i still am not totally getting the LUG concept. so hard-core lesbian women on campus, dedicated feminazis, whatever, recruit otherwise straight chicks who… decide on the spot to switch teams? even though they’re still attracted to men? they go through all the motions: take back the night marches, whistles, protests, conforming to ideology, etc. – then head out at night to frat parties in tube-tops to get laid?

    uh… why? what the hell is that all about? wouldn’t the cognitive dissonance be kind of overwhelming?

    Like


  236. @Steve Johnson:

    I don’t think it’s about “testing” a man, just about resisting a weak sexual will. I certainly feel bad if I “put out” too easily, since it doesn’t accurately reflect the usual hold I have on my impulses or urges. It’s not to deprive a man for deprivation’s sake.

    Like


  237. “Again, you have to be astute at reading signals. If she’s saying “no” curtly, seriously, and giving you negative body language, she probably means what she says.”

    This is no basis whatsoever for a legal standard, and you know it. Reading signals?

    Pfft.

    Like


  238. @maurice:

    I think it’s been established that campus feminists don’t recruit LUGs, just incidentally benefit from the presence of young, attractive twenty-somethings who are fashionable lesbians. They may exploit it, who knows.

    The “Take Back the Night” marches were something kalli0pe brought up in a peripheral point about surrendering all self-responsibility in the context of rape.

    Like


  239. on July 6, 2009 at 11:52 pm Gunslingergregi

    Now the woman are saying please fake rape em.

    No wonder they try to make illegal.

    Evil wenches.

    he he he

    Like


  240. Steve’s Johnson’s point about sperm retention is from the book “Sperm Wars”. I know that fact to be true, since I’ve read the entire thing. Women usually retain little sperm from ordinary copulations (15%?), and retain much more during orgasm, something like 80%.

    I think the frequency of copulation in humans is about having lots and lots of tries for women to get the best genetic quality of sperm. When her body senses a guy with the sort of physical prowess indicative of good genes it is looking for, she experiences orgasm and has a much better chance of conception.

    You see much of the same sort of concepts in mating of beetles. I found a nice little paper on Google Scholar which I am loath to look up at the moment.

    Like


  241. @novaseeker:

    No, it has no legal basis whatsoever, but you have got to be seriously socially inept if you don’t rely on positive intuition for cues; I’m speaking in terms of basic social interaction here. This is extended ALL the time in dating and sexual situations, whether it’s negging a girl at a club, or being playfully rough with her. It’s like functioning as a logical positivist if you want law to be the basis for all your social interactions: impossible on a practical level.

    Like


  242. I went to university in the late 80s/early 90s and remember the date rape hysteria well. I guess it’s still there.

    Sometime in the 90s there was this hysterical SNL skit lampooning the absurd campus directives that defined appropriate sexual contact between men and women. One university had recently issued a guide that stated a man had to get explicit oral consent from a woman before every escalation — holding hands, kissing, hands on breasts, hands down pants, removing clothing, etc. all the way up to intercourse. The skit showed a guy and a girl hooking up, with a meek guy following the academic feminist diktat to the letter:

    Guy: “I would like to hold your hand. May I?”
    Girl: “You may.”
    Guy: “I would like to nuzzle your ear. May I?”
    Girl: “You may.”
    Guy: “I would like to kiss you. May I?”
    Girl: “You may.”
    Guy: “I would like to place my right hand on your left breast. May I?”
    Girl: “You may.”

    You get the idea.

    The skit was brilliant in showing the utter absurdity of this stuff. Good Lord, who *are* these people?

    Like


  243. Novaseeker, if men are so visually drawn to and satisfied by porn, perhaps that might make them less satisfied with real life women, because most real life women do not have the bodies of porn stars, though in many cases our faces are more appealing. Some men may actually prefer porn to real life experiences. Didn’t someone on here already express that to be his preference?

    Xsplat, wow! I’m being made privy to an aspect of American culture that is everywhere but I’m not part of – the bar/club scene. I had no idea that its at the point where you can just finger a complete stranger upon meeting her in a bar!

    Weird.

    I can’t relate at all.

    Guess its time for me to say ciao to this blog.

    Like


  244. A couple of quick ideas I want to add:

    I believe lesbianism is much more socially conditioned that male homosexuality.

    A couple of previous commenters were correct when they stated the moral seriousness of a drunk male taking advantage of a drunk female and vice versa should be considered quite different. Being wasted doesn’t totally absolve her of responsibility, but there is still the sexual dimorphism angle, and the fundamental fact that females are *choosy* and males aren’t, so it’s a much greater crime when those sexual prerogatives that they were given dominion over by Nature are violated.

    Like


  245. In general, I have observed in various fora that Steven Johnson knows what the fuck he’s talking about, so I would trust the more novel data he brings to the table.

    Like


  246. on July 7, 2009 at 12:04 am Gunslingergregi

    ”””””””””””””’White Girl
    Novaseeker, if men are so visually drawn to and satisfied by porn, perhaps that might make them less satisfied with real life women, because most real life women do not have the bodies of porn stars, though in many cases our faces are more appealing. Some men may actually prefer porn to real life experiences. Didn’t someone on here already express that to be his preference?

    Xsplat, wow! I’m being made privy to an aspect of American culture that is everywhere but I’m not part of – the bar/club scene. I had no idea that its at the point where you can just finger a complete stranger upon meeting her in a bar!

    Weird.

    I can’t relate at all.

    Guess its time for me to say ciao to this blog.”””””””””””’

    So you lied about all that stuff about black guys. Good riddance.

    Like


  247. “No, it has no legal basis whatsoever, but you have got to be seriously socially inept if you don’t rely on positive intuition for cues; I’m speaking in terms of basic social interaction here. This is extended ALL the time in dating and sexual situations, whether it’s negging a girl at a club, or being playfully rough with her. It’s like functioning as a logical positivist if you want law to be the basis for all your social interactions: impossible on a practical level.”

    Oh I agree, but the problem is legal significance is attached to those judgments and evaluations. That is the problem with date rape. It expects that everyone has an astute signal reading radar — and that is not true. So while I agree that socially people should learn to read signals better, prosecuting people because they don’t read signals well is nonsensical.

    Like


  248. “Novaseeker, if men are so visually drawn to and satisfied by porn, perhaps that might make them less satisfied with real life women, because most real life women do not have the bodies of porn stars, though in many cases our faces are more appealing. Some men may actually prefer porn to real life experiences. Didn’t someone on here already express that to be his preference?”

    Indeed, which is why I tell men not to overdo the porn. You can see that on my site as well. The reason for that, though, is what I have written — visual, for us, trumps imagined. Just is so, and will always be so.

    Like


  249. Yea, but S, what you and so many Women are simply incapable of really getting, is that MOST guys are socially inept, or to put a finer point on it, don’t know how to read Women’s body language. Sounds silly, but its true, otherwise guys like Mystery and Style, Jeffries and Janka couldn’t make BIG money from this thing called Game.

    At any rate, the only real effective “weapon” against rape and so on, is yup you guessed it, GAME. If your ish is tight in how you run it, etc, girlfriend won’t regret what she did at all, and you won’t need a drop of liqour to do the deed. Besides, its always better is she gives up the panties in full control of her faculties and w/her own free will. Solid Game will do that.

    Of course, the guys who need Game the most-the really high IQ guys out there in say, Silicon Valley-probably are genetically incapable of learning/applying it to any real degree that makes a difference. So, we’re then left w/what Roissy was talking about on the Porn thread-more porn, legalization of whorehouses, and sexbots. Personally, I don’t see the latter happening in any major way if at all, the Feminist Lobby is likely to fight like the devil to prevent option two from happening, which leaves porn. Hmm.

    We’ll see if that can indeed stem the tide.

    O

    Like


  250. on July 7, 2009 at 12:10 am Gunslingergregi

    Plus when you can tell the woman what to do and she does it on cam. Yea prob better than porn.

    Like


  251. on July 7, 2009 at 12:11 am Virginia Gentleman

    maurice:

    Never underestimate the power of the collegiate mind to function in the face of seeming incoherence.

    I first heard of the LUG concept back in the mid-1990s, during the heyday for so-called ‘lesbian chic’. I don’t know if it really involves a predatory caste of dedicated homosexuals who prey on the defenseless, but the LUG concept doesn’t require that. All it really requires is the situation where previously exclusive heterosexual women, for whatever reason, decide to play the same-sex game for a period of years.

    By the end of their collegiate career, they’ve found Mr. Right and switched back, or maybe they’re not down for a life lived to the sounds of Ani DiFranco and the Indigo Girls; who knows? I’m not sure they go out in the tube tops to the frat parties, though. Perhaps some do.

    My own theories about the concept—having never met a LUG—generally revolve around something about people going to college and being bombarded with a stream of messages, many of which involve “Your parents’ values are narrow and intolerant; be progressive and reject heteronormative behavioral norms of phallocentric patriarchalism; et cetera”. Some women actually fall for that line and go with it. If I weren’t happily on the way to bed, I’d call it brainwashing.

    I do suspect that the LUG isn’t particularly liked by the lifers, though. They get all the “benefits” and none of the responsibility of making their way in the evil world of oppression once they graduate.

    Like


  252. I’d like to point out that there really are two ‘types’ of rape in today’s culture. There is a grey area between the two types, but there are less cases in the grey area than you would think.

    The first case, is actual rape. Violence is used, or really and truly threatened. Date rape drugs. Other truly nasty things. Many men, including me, have a very bad, very visceral reaction to the thought of any woman we care about being raped.

    Then we have the ‘political’ rape. How do you know it’s rape? The local feminist prosecutor, male or female, said it was! Should I wave my little ‘NOW’ Flag when the prosecutor drives by?

    Most men who wildly support ‘political’ rape charges aren’t doing it because of they are ‘good people’. They know the cases are nonsense.

    Take the Kobe Bryant case. A woman who isn’t drunk sneaks into an NFL stars hotel room to have sex with him but is mad that he doesn’t finish, so later accuses him of rape. This case is especially amusing because even the accuser admits the ‘rapist’ didn’t ejaculate. He stopped right in the middle. Not kidding. The non-ejaculating rapist!

    This claim, and many others like it, are all RETARDED. And yeah, it’s pretty easy to tell the RETARDED claims from the real ones. Men who support the ‘political’ rapes DON’T CARE if the ‘rape’ happened or not. Of even if what was claimed was rape. There is nothing ‘moral’ about their popular ‘stand’. They are kissing up to society. They are doing what is expected. Getting a pat on the head, if that, from the local women for selling out other men. And if the local feminist prosecutor said tomorrow that the same action isn’t rape, they would just as fakely say it isn’t rape.

    In fact, in the really, real world, the same men who are so full of fury when prosecutor says jump will be oddly quiet about real rapes being ignored.

    Let’s look at the retarded Kobe Bryant accusation, from the slut herself:

    In her initial interview with police on July 2, Faber claimed Bryant raped her from behind over a love chair in his hotel room at approximately 11 pm on July 1.[9] She said she arrived late to her job at the hotel because of car problems. While in Bryant’s room after giving him a tour of the hotel, she said she became “uncomfortable” because he was being flirtatious. She said she got up to leave and that Bryant asked her for a hug. Then she said he kissed her when she looked up at him. She later said both the hug and kiss were consensual, but she never wanted to have sex with Bryant.

    Faber stated the kiss lasted 5 minutes, and then Bryant pulled down his pants and started groping her. She claimed that she tried to pull away at that point, and said Bryant put both of his hands around her neck to choke her. She said he pulled her over to the chair by her neck, where he “bent her over the chair and pulled down her panties”. She said he then penetrated her from behind with one hand on her neck holding her down. She said both her hands were on the chair and that she said “no” repeatedly. She said she wasn’t resisting because she was afraid he would become “more physical.”

    She told investigators that Bryant then asked whether she “liked it if a guy came on [her] face”.[10] She said she told Bryant “no”. And then she “got a little more aggressive with him and tried to release his hands from [her] neck”. After “trying as hard as [she] could to get away” she said Bryant stopped having intercourse with her, and she was able to free herself. She said Bryant made her promise not to tell anyone, and then he forced her to wash her face before she could leave. She told investigators three times that she washed her face in his room before she left the room, but later claimed she never washed her face. Detective Winters asked “are you lying to me right now?” Faber answered “no”. While giving the statement, Faber also volunteered to take a lie detector test to prove she was telling the truth.[11]

    Katelyn Faber didn’t know that going alone to the hotel room of an NFL star could result in sex. What an innocent child!

    Of course, she still made-out with the NFL star, alone, and sober, in his hotel room for five minutes.

    Then ‘he raped her’. She ‘said no’. But was ‘too scared’ to fight back. Then, as is typical with your actual rapist, Kobe stopped before ejaculation and let her wash her face before leaving.

    Your typical rape victim will never linger in the presence of the rapist after being raped. However most women will stop to adjust their bra, maybe check their lipstick, wash their face, and other things as a post-aggressive ah…. attack!… clean-up.

    Let’s be clear, a woman who is worried about being raped(and he hadn’t ejaculated yet) would have fled. Rape or stupid-slut letting the situation escalate out of control, she would have FLED had she actually been scared.

    She wasn’t even scared. In fact, if he had shown more anger, she probably couldn’t have mustered up the craziness to accuse him of rape. A few angry put-downs from Kobe about what a stupid slut she was would have probably saved him millions. Dam, even NFL super-stars can’t get away with Beta behavior.

    Really, the case of Kobe the non-ejaculating rapist is text-book feminist nonsense.

    And men responded to it:
    http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/6796146

    They don’t want to be associated with no non-ejaculating rapist! Them is the worst kind!

    Like


  253. Obsidian, they were calling for you at the White Women Black Men page after my two comments there yesterday.

    Like


  254. @SJ/billaire- OK, noted. “Sperm Wars” is on my to-read list, so I’ll look at those studies then.

    @S.- thanks for the answer. still kind of baffles me, but evidently that’s 100% my fault, and of no consequence, so i’ll let it go.

    your posts are getting better here, since you were the subject of the Reader Mail post just this week. better writing, better syntax, better logic. i like to think we’re making you better all around. 🙂

    Like


  255. @Novaseeker:

    Oh, I was speaking after a consensus was reached on what the category of rape should include. If a man persists, and the woman is resisting oweing to ‘x’ reason (say, one of the ones I listed above), but she falls victim to tight game, she won’t continue resisting. It becomes fairly obvious that it’s rape if a physical scuffle ensues, the man is hurtful/violent, she is screaming and yelling, and not physically aroused or giving clear negative body cues (turning away, pushing away, palpable discomfort).

    But I acknowledge Obsidian’s comment about lacking social cues, and the need for game. I get it.

    Like


  256. Whitegirl

    Xsplat, wow! I’m being made privy to an aspect of American culture that is everywhere but I’m not part of – the bar/club scene. I had no idea that its at the point where you can just finger a complete stranger upon meeting her in a bar!

    No, you can’t just finger a complete stranger upon meeting her in a bar.

    Just like you can’t have sex on the beach.

    It’s taboo. It’s unusual.

    And it’s totally hot.

    Like


  257. “It becomes fairly obvious that it’s rape if a physical scuffle ensues, the man is hurtful/violent, she is screaming and yelling, and not physically aroused or giving clear negative body cues (turning away, pushing away, palpable discomfort).”

    Yes this is clearly a rape.

    But much date rape is “I didn’t want it, but I said nothing, and I thought he would get it, but he didn’t, and I feel so violated” and so on.

    That should not be a crime.

    I agree about defining the limits, but traditional rape law did that well enough, did it not? The scenario of a scuffle and screaming objections would not be a tough case under traditional rape law. There was no need for date rape definitions of rape to cover that kind of violent confrontation.

    Like


  258. And it was the Philippines, by the way – not the US. A place where public displays of affection are even less common.

    Like


  259. Obsidian:
    “Of course, the guys who need Game the most-the really high IQ guys out there in say, Silicon Valley-probably are genetically incapable of learning/applying it to any real degree that makes a difference. So, we’re then left w/what Roissy was talking about on the Porn thread-more porn, legalization of whorehouses, and sexbots. Personally, I don’t see the latter happening in any major way if at all, the Feminist Lobby is likely to fight like the devil to prevent option two from happening, which leaves porn. Hmm. ”

    Two questions:

    1. what do you mean by “genetically incapable of learning/applying Game”? Are you proposing there is a “Game gene”???

    2. why would a lobby of any kind prevent sexbots when there are all kinds of sex toys available right now anyway, including fake yonis?

    Like


  260. on July 7, 2009 at 12:26 am Gunslingergregi

    And like every other woman seems to eventually do white girl lies

    Like


  261. on July 7, 2009 at 12:26 am Gunslingergregi

    and posts again

    Like


  262. @xsplat:

    “Was it force? I was forceful, certainly. She did protest. She said no lots of times. Rape? Ya, in a good way. We play the Daddy no, daddy stop game all the time also.”
    These kinds of relationships appear on Hispanic telenovelas quite often.

    I mean, I couldn’t talk about any recent ones, but a few really popular past ones had these sorts of things in them. A lot of resistance, a lot of denial of feelings, and then BAM. It happens.

    I don’t know if this happens on American t.v. shows.

    @azuzuru:

    That excerpt from the SNL skit reminded me a lot of this e.e. cummings poem.

    may i feel said he
    by e e cummings
    may i feel said he
    (i’ll squeal said she
    just once said he)
    it’s fun said she

    (may i touch said he
    how much said she
    a lot said he)
    why not said she

    (let’s go said he
    not too far said she
    what’s too far said he
    where you are said she)

    may i stay said he
    (which way said she
    like this said he
    if you kiss said she

    may i move said he
    is it love said she)
    if you’re willing said he
    (but you’re killing said she

    but it’s life said he
    but your wife said she
    now said he)
    ow said she

    (tiptop said he
    don’t stop said she
    oh no said he)
    go slow said she

    (cccome?said he
    ummm said she)
    you’re divine!said he
    (you are Mine said she)

    Like


  263. It’s taboo, and unusual, and totally hot. But then again, it matched the circumstances completely. This was a miniature little hottie who never wore panties under her micro-mini skirt. If that’s not asking to be toyed with in a public area, I don’t know what is.

    Whats weird isn’t that I did that, it’s that other men couldn’t read her signals in that she could be up for such extreme behaviour.

    And that was just the start of a long list of much more extreme outings. She may have been nuts, but she wasn’t boring.

    But I’m getting off topic. The topic is reading signals, and pushing things just past what the woman thought was acceptable. That’s what seduction is.

    Like


  264. on July 7, 2009 at 12:28 am Gunslingergregi

    ”””””””Comment,
    Take the Kobe Bryant case. A woman who isn’t drunk sneaks into an NFL stars hotel room to have sex with him but is mad that he doesn’t finish, so later accuses him of rape. This case is especially amusing because even the accuser admits the ‘rapist’ didn’t ejaculate. He stopped right in the middle. Not kidding. The non-ejaculating rapist!””””””’

    Ok now I can see why she was pissed lol

    Thanks for update on that.

    Like


  265. @Novaseeker:

    I think we’re actually just agreeing. I made that initial comment after I figured the point you just cited had already been established, and was therefore considered axiomatic in my scenario.

    Like


  266. @Gunslinger:

    My, my! You are a little critical of the posters around here.

    haha, I kid.

    Like


  267. Ah okay, then. That’s good, S. 🙂

    Like


  268. on July 7, 2009 at 12:31 am Steve Johnson

    S.

    I don’t think it’s about “testing” a man, just about resisting a weak sexual will.

    In other words, you’re testing the strength of his sexual will.

    If you were a guy and a PUA you’d say you were screening for sexual aggressiveness.

    It’s all good. From the other side, it’s way more fun wrestling and playing with a girl before she consents than if she just accepts your advances.

    Of course, this whole thing shows that the feminist assertion that “No means no!” is a lie.

    What result does this lie have:

    1) More beta guys will give up; women get to screen for betas in the bedroom. Before date rape, women would have to avoid being isolated with a man in private. Now she can use the situation to test him for testosterone.
    2) The biggest social drawback of promiscuity for women is a bad reputation. Now she can avoid a bad reputation by later disavowing responsibility for sex. She also gets to destroy any guy who brags: accuse him of rape.

    So much of feminism is simply an effort to allow women to mate with alphas with no consequence.

    Like


  269. @xsplat:

    “But I’m getting off topic. The topic is reading signals, and pushing things just past what the woman thought was acceptable. That’s what seduction is.”

    Well, I think another method could be as successful.

    She expects you to go further. You don’t, not because you’re afraid of how she might react, not because you don’t know that she wants you to, not because you don’t want to, but because you want to toy with her, and see if she’ll initiate something.

    She knows this too.

    It could work at first.

    I know you’re the more aggressive type, though. From what you’ve said.

    Like


  270. on July 7, 2009 at 12:37 am Gunslingergregi

    ””””Mandy! XD
    @Gunslinger:

    My, my! You are a little critical of the posters around here.

    haha, I kid.””””””

    Yea gonna need you to break down white woman it is too much of a setup for a man to do it. She already lied at the end and is doing every cliche in the book. It is not as fun then. he he he

    Like


  271. @Steve Johnson

    No, no, the weak sexual will of the woman. I would say there’s a distinction between that and degree of male sexual aggression. It makes a difference when you speak in the negative; it shifts the focus of the subject.

    Also, you can’t uniformly argue that “no means no” is a lie. I did discuss the importance of other sexual cues, positive and negative, and usually when the game is tight, a “no” shifts to a “yes”, it doesn’t remain a “no”. Rape would qualify as a “no” remaining a “no”. The distinction rests upon the shift from resistance to acquiescance.

    Like


  272. @WhiteGirl —

    LUG = lesbian until graduation.

    Like


  273. on July 7, 2009 at 12:41 am Gunslingergregi

    Jesus nova wtf just happened. This is how monsters are created.

    Like


  274. Steve Johnson:

    “The biggest social drawback of promiscuity for women is a bad reputation. ”

    We are not Asians.

    What would be the social drawback for a woman in 2009 United States?

    Like


  275. @White Girl

    I was merely trying to say when speaking of the comments erupting into threads, sub-arguments, crossfire, and the like, that it was hard for me to keep up with the thread, and then contribute a meaningful comment, i.e. something that hasn’t already been said. I wasn’t trying to talk of any contention or annoyances.

    A LUG is a “lesbian until graduation”.

    Like


  276. Don’t intuit my moral views from the following:

    One problem with distinguishing “true rape” from the feminist bullshit is that while the confronted women’s vocal protestations might be real and clear, her body language could be telling an entirely different story to the male mind.

    The female body takes defensive measures against rape. After all, the apparatus is important, and the man could, in the worst cases, possibly kill her.

    All the while she is protesting, the aroused man is seeing the same woman getting wet (lubricated), her nipples hardening, and her cheeks flushing. Some primal portion of his brain knows exactly what those cues those mean.

    The evolutionary problem is that he’s got to carry out the rape correctly. If he’s weak-willed and un-forceful, he’s a real-life loser, and probably a genetic one as well. On the other hand, if he growls at her, “you know you’ve been wanting this”, and TAKES IT, he’s made of finer stuff.

    Of course, it’s impossible to divine which of these cases is the true one until AFTER the rape event has occurred.

    In general, I tend to elevate the rational part of the mind brain over its primal portions. Civilization and science are the only things that could possibly save man from succumbing to his dangerous evolutionary baggage. “No” should really mean “no”.

    But it’s important to recognize that thousands of men are likely caught in this sort of ambiguous situation every day. Indeed, Nature is a quite a capricious, ex post facto judge. It doesn’t care that something is objectively evil as long as it is inclusively fit.

    Like


  277. Correction, above: “mind/brain”.

    Like


  278. LUG = lesbian until graduation??? Okaaaaaaaay.

    I was at first thinking along the lines of fugly. So lug, lesbian ugly. lol.

    This computer language never ceases to amaze me.

    Too bad people aren’t married by the time they go to college. Would probably improve grades and downsize all the drama and confusion youth face and create in our culture today.

    Like


  279. Mandy

    She expects you to go further. You don’t, not because you’re afraid of how she might react, not because you don’t know that she wants you to, not because you don’t want to, but because you want to toy with her, and see if she’ll initiate something.

    She knows this too.

    It could work at first.

    Hurry up and get to the point where my penis is inside her vagina.

    Like


  280. @ maurice-

    I wasn’t implying all girls at the rallies were LUGs; in fact, there often wasn’t much overlap between the straight ‘trendy’ feminists and the LUGs other than their shared fear of date rape. The two types who pushed the rape hysteria hardest were the LUGs, who seemed to be the product of little latent bisexuality and a LOT of parental rebellion, and the Carrie Bradshaw ’empowered slut’ types who slept around as an expression of their third-wave feminist freedom from patriarchal gender roles etc. Those were the girls you saw marching in Take Back the Night rallies, writing ‘sex columns’ full of tired blowjob tips in the campus paper and dancing on tables at frat parties. The more hardcore butch lesbians weren’t into the ‘rape culture’ insanity, presumably because they didn’t care much about men either way.

    I hope this is helping some people get a picture of why feminism is such a thorny issue for younger women. In some ways we were unable to recognize the benefits it brought because we never lived without them; all we felt was the confusion and fear of men.

    Like


  281. @S.- all good. the female regulars are appreciated- LR is an outlier because she’s unusually argumentative and obtuse. especially the latter. roissy did/does enjoy flaming her – it’s a mystery why she sticks around.

    @xsplat – see, what you don’t get in scintillating conversation you get in raw kinky sex. that’s a tradeoff most guys stateside would happily make, i think … til/if/when they want an LTR …

    i have to relate a second-hand joke i heard years ago. a friend of mine knew a guy who had been in the Navy prior to the base closures there. they were sitting on a couch together watching a Star Trek: Next Generations episode involving the holodeck. for those who don’t know the show, it was a kind of neural program that simulated people’s innermost dreams and fanatasies. So the Navy guy looks at my friend and says, “You know, we used to have a holodeck in the U.S. Navy. It was called the Philippines.” boo-ya! harsh.

    @mandy- ee cummings at 17? you certainly are precocious. youshould get away from the books a bit, seeing as you’re so good at them, and get out in real life some more!

    Like


  282. @ xsplat-

    You are clearly very good at seeing through a woman’s slut defenses and reading signs of hidden desire. Other men aren’t so good. I worry that the “some women want to be raped” argument, taken to its logical extreme, could get some poor well-meaning beta into HUGE trouble.

    Like


  283. Billare:

    Thanks for making a distinction between evolutionary biology and civilization/science. Seriously.

    Like


  284. cummings is standard fare for that age, maurice, I think. Certainly was when I was 17 back in the dark ages.

    Like


  285. I’m still not getting why any woman in 2009 United States would need a “slut defense”.

    What is the standard?

    Like


  286. Hopefully someone has linked this already, but just in case:

    Like


  287. on July 7, 2009 at 12:57 am Gunslingergregi

    Maurice are you saying you can’t do that in the states?

    he he he

    Yea but ltr with what going on. Her working on carreer making sure you split housework exactly 50/50.

    Like


  288. kalli0pe

    @ xsplat-

    You are clearly very good at seeing through a woman’s slut defenses and reading signs of hidden desire. Other men aren’t so good. I worry that the “some women want to be raped” argument, taken to its logical extreme, could get some poor well-meaning beta into HUGE trouble.

    Ya ya, I know I know. That is mentioned everytime this subject is brought up. Some men can’t understand nuance, so its in the public good to just never mention nuance.

    I call bullshit.

    Men go to jail for that kind of thinking. This is a legal situation. We need all the public discussion of nuance we can muster.

    Like


  289. ATTENTION ROISSY —

    I’ll bet many of us would really like to see an article by you some day in a reputable intellectual publication. I have just written to Michael Blowhard asking him to add his voice and name to this idea, by suggesting you to any contacts he may have in conservative publications such as The American Conservative.

    (This does not make any assumptions about your own political stances; it’s just that — as you no doubt have noticed — people who look straight at life, without kidding themselves about human nature, are more often to be found in milieus of conservative thought, and you would thus be more likely to be published there.)

    I even have a perfect topic for you. Recently you made some very insightful comments regarding Kay Hymowitz and how she is really just an old-fashioned feminist dressed up in conservative clothing, and how that obliges her to radically pull her punches when she is describing the ills of modern feminist-influenced society. You are the perfect person to work that (or another of your clever observations) up into a really devastating essay.

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  290. i read other stuff in AP English and didn’t get to cummings until much later. but that was well before the dark ages in my poor case- dinosaurs roamed the earth.

    @billaire- agreed, very nice post.

    @kalli0pe/xsplat- agreed, but xsplat lives in asia where the culture is different. i lived in korea for a bit and it’s totally a man’s world. even though young women need to keep up virginal appearances, they usually don’t/can’t resist strong advances. a lot of fondling under tables, sex bars, etc.

    also, kalli0pe, are you the same that was posting under the same name but with letter o instead of zero? what’s up with the handle? a kalliope is a musical instrument, in addition to the muse of epic poetry:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calliope_(music)

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  291. Cummings is standard fare. I think most things by grade twelve are pretty game. I remember reading Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Camus, fair bit of Shakespeare, the Theban plays, etc. The only substantial difference between grade twelve English and undergraduate English Lit. is the introduction of actual literary theory, along the lines of deconstructionism. Which is really what makes an English Lit. degree.

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  292. Maurice

    xsplat lives in asia where the culture is different. i lived in korea for a bit and it’s totally a man’s world. even though young women need to keep up virginal appearances, they usually don’t/can’t resist strong advances. a lot of fondling under tables, sex bars, etc.

    I’ve never seen or heard of fondling under the tables in Asia. And women here are as resistant as anywhere. I have no idea what you are talking about.

    Women aren’t magically different here. Culture isn’t that big an influence on female behaviour.

    I don’t know why people think it would be.

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  293. @xsplat- they used to do it in those korean fruit/champagne bars. kind of an odd concept from the us point of view, but i went to a few. it was many years ago, maybe things have changed.

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  294. Kalliope is a Greek word meaning “sweet face”.

    Katto, now I’m really confused, a sexually liberated man celebrating women’s sexual liberation writing for a “conservative” publication like the The American Conservative?

    That combined with the notion that North American women in 2009 need a “slut defense” is too much for me to digest.

    Either this society’s priorities are all mixed up or….

    Anyone care to explain? From an outsider’s pov it’s very rabbit holey.

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  295. p.s. @xsplat how come you don’t update your blog? i’d look at it from time to time if there were new entries. you have great stuff to relate.

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  296. xsplat:

    Where in Asia are you? Culture isn’t that big an influence on female behavior?!

    I knew a ton of girls from traditional immigrant backgrounds who would blush at any allusion to anything remotely sexual, nay, romantic. It would be impossible to approach them as a male.

    I’m also part ethnically Indian, and whilst I haven’t had ancestors in India for over 150 years, it allowed me to talk on a closer level with Indian chicks who would never think of disrespecting their parents by dating.

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  297. Maurice, were those bars places to go and meet “bar girls”?

    Because generally asians are prudish about public affection. Wild when the doors are closed, but less public hand holding.

    Bar girls allow pubic affection – that’s expected. I’ve never seen or heard of the kind of scandals I routinely get up to.

    Which was the point of my story. Pushing the envelope will endear you to a woman. The fact that it was highly unusual and well past her expectations made me stand out as bold and strong and courageous. As opposed to the milktoast men who cared enough about her feelings to wait until she was “ready”.

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  298. maurice

    p.s. @xsplat how come you don’t update your blog? i’d look at it from time to time if there were new entries. you have great stuff to relate.

    I don’t know what happened to my compulsion to blog. It had been pleasureable to be the Muse’s bitch boy, for a few years. But I’m free of her now. The blog is resting until the Muse makes me her little bitch again.

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  299. S, I was thinking the exact same thing. But I have heard that East Asia’s are more open than Desis (south asians).

    I’ve spent a lot of time in Desh and I’m a SHOCKED by a lot of attitudes (and some stuff I’m reading here) in the US.

    To be frank, from the viewpoint of someone from the outside looking in its something of a joke that an American woman would have to put up a “slut defense”. I mean, exactly what standard is she holding herself to, ya know what I mean? LOL. It’s not like American women or men are known globally for their high sexual standards/ethics/morals. The world slut is irrelevant here.

    (At least that’s the way it looks to us on the outside, maybe someone can clue us in on the inside “standards”.)

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  300. ”The world slut is irrelevant here.”

    Should read

    The WORD slut is irrelevant here.

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  301. S

    S.
    Where in Asia are you? Culture isn’t that big an influence on female behavior?!

    I knew a ton of girls from traditional immigrant backgrounds who would blush at any allusion to anything remotely sexual, nay, romantic. It would be impossible to approach them as a male.

    I’m also part ethnically Indian, and whilst I haven’t had ancestors in India for over 150 years, it allowed me to talk on a closer level with Indian chicks who would never think of disrespecting their parents by dating.

    I was being polemic – it’s a bad habit of mine. I get the urge to be polemic when the prevailing attitude really needs a deep shaking up. People give too much power to culture, and think that social interaction is culturally created. It isn’t. It’s culturally influenced.

    Women from all cultures share the basics, and these basics form most of all social interaction.

    You can build trucks or space ships out of lego, but when you look at lego as an adult, all you see is lego. You don’t see a truck or a space ship.

    When I see women, I see the basic building blocks.

    In ALL cultures and places there are the “good” girls, and the girls who take more risks. That’s a universal. Another is that people follow opportunities. Take a “good” girl muslim from the village, and if she was a risk taker their, in the big city with more opportunities, she’ll take more risks. Culture wasn’t what was keeping her down, it was a lack of options.

    Right now i’m in Jakarta. In the last seven years I’ve been in various places in Indonesia, Thailand, and the Phillipines.

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  302. @xsplat- i don’t know how you’d describe them. they called them “hostess bars”. they were this weird hybrid of dinner club and sex club, with all the attributes of neither. no straight-up sex or stripping, lots of feminine coyness, some stroking and groping, maybe a number exchange. quite different from my experiences in russia. no confusion there, no siree bob. that’s why i asserted that culture matters in these things.

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  303. on July 7, 2009 at 1:32 am Gunslingergregi

    It is like the holodeck though maurice to an extent. I made mention it would be nice to have the bedroom like a luxury hotel room. Magically it now is 2k later. he he he

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  304. So Maurice is basically talking about prostitutes, not your average village citizen, ordinary girl/woman.

    You can pay women everywhere to grope you. Women in that profession that is.

    Try “chatting” up a (non-paid) traditional village woman and see how far you get.

    In Phillipines you could get something coz those wome are looking to move (mail order bride country). Plus their culture is not in tact anymore since its Abrahamization. But India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan and so many places… forget it!

    Those are very hard cultures to break into and the concept of “dating” is still foreign and weird to 99% of them. What to speak of “hooking up”. Yikes!

    No baby’s mommas or baby’s daddies there folks!

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  305. xsplat:

    I understand what you’re saying, but a “good” girl in Asia is much different from a “good” girl in North America, and the same applies to risk takers. A lot more is accredited to culture than is due granted, but your immediate environment, and the way you were raised still sets a different bar for someone. Cultural guilt plays a huge role in the way a person is likely to behave. There may still be the same spectrum of women, or archetypes rather, but they behave on different relative spectrums.

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  306. Maurice, you are talking about places where men go to pay women for their company.

    It’s entirely different from where men go to bring their dates. Entirely different from where men go to meet women to date.

    You are mixing up very different social milieus. What we usually call “social standards” are not applicable to hostess bars.

    You wouldn’t take your hot co-worder to a hostess bar and fondle her there. She’d likely be highly offended and ashamed to see your face at work.

    Hostess bars are places men go to get away from the dating scene. Not places men go to date.

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  307. The comment made by White Girl is supported by a thread on Roosh entitled Chance of Getting Laid in India. The consensus being, minimal chance. The Indian girls I knew here, despite being born and raised in Toronto, were still overwhelmingly conservative.

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  308. So you say S. But show me a virgin who respects her parents and believes in God and is holding her virginity in sacred trust to hand over to a truly worthy man who will remain with her for life, and I’ll show you someone who hasn’t been outdoors much.

    City life changes everyone. Move away from your parents and live amongst many people, and village attitudes change.

    Look at any city in any country. It’s universal. Sex in the city attitudes now appliy accross all cultures.

    Sure, rural life is conservative. That’s universal also. Same in the US, same in Indonesia.

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  309. on July 7, 2009 at 1:39 am Gunslingergregi

    Now yea the value is that yea you can go and get sex easy with money. So no pent up rage while trying to find real woman.

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  310. Actually, some rural areas are also hotbeds of promiscuity.

    And village chicks can be so, so, so easy. All you have to do is offer to get them the hell out of there, and they’ll hand over their pussy on a platter.

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  311. @S.

    “Cummings is standard fare. I think most things by grade twelve are pretty game. ”

    No, I think Maurice is right on this one.

    I became a huge fan of Cummings at the age of 12 after doing a project on him. And yes, I picked him out of all the other poets. =X

    If I wee to mention a 12th grade poet, I’d mention Yeats (especially “Sailing to Byzantium” or “The Song of Wandering Angus,” I think both could be applied to certain posts in this blog). I’m also tempted to bring up Zorba the Greek in some occassions, but I’m waiting for the right moment.

    >.>’

    😀

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  312. oops. that should read “were to mention”

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  313. @xsplat- true, and @WG partially true. it was a weird gray area, that was sort of the point. i got taken to one by some local men on several occasions, and was generally confused as to the point. if you want to talk to a girl, have female company, just take one out. if you want sex or related types of companionship, do that. again, a culture-specific institution. paying for smiles and light fondling but no sex.

    i will defer to xsplat’s superior and more recent knowledge of asia and asian women though. it’s evident my knowledge is shallow and out of date.

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  314. @xsplat:

    “So you say S. But show me a virgin who respects her parents and believes in God and is holding her virginity in sacred trust to hand over to a truly worthy man who will remain with her for life, and I’ll show you someone who hasn’t been outdoors much.”

    Hey, hey, hey now. I live in a big city!

    >.>’

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  315. xsplat:

    I largely agree with/concede to you, but I still hold that cultural relativity is meaningful on some level. My evidence is merely anecdotal, but even now, I still meet first-generation young girls from immigrant parents, living in the city alone (usually for school), and still feeling phantom cultural restraints.

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  316. About India, S – how are you going to disentange the effect of conservatism, with the fact that whites aren’t considered high class there?

    In SE Asia, whites are considered of a higher caste than the locals.

    In India, the Brahmins are considered of higher caste than the whites.

    Girls don’t put out for lower caste men easily.

    And in India the higher caste men put a higher value on chasteness then western men do.

    Women are not different at all there. Not culturally changed. They are merely acting based on opportunity. Not out of some respect for the moral superiority of chastity. If they thought whites were a higher caste, they’d be ballin the marines.

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  317. “Look at any city in any country. It’s universal. Sex in the city attitudes now appliy accross all cultures.”

    No it doesn’t. There is not even a solid “dating culture” in Mumbai, India’s most cosmopolitan city. Do some “risk takers” date there? Yeah. Do most people? No.

    Most Indian marriages are arranged, whether they are village, town or city.

    I’m sorry but even Charlotte of Sex and the City would be considered a ho in India. And she was what – the most conservative of the 4?

    “”Sure, rural life is conservative. That’s universal also. Same in the US, same in Indonesia.””

    I don’t know about rural life in Indonesia, but what is considered “conservative rural behaviour” here in USA would still be “scandalous” by India’s standards.

    Thats why I had to laugh when someone above wrote about women in America having a “slut defense”. Its a joke really. America is world famous for having no sexual standards. Forget these slut defenses. They are irrelevent.

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  318. on July 7, 2009 at 1:49 am Gunslingergregi

    Of course any woman I get the eye from I can normally fuck that day doesn’t matter what country they are from.

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  319. Older Man —

    No, the dichotomy is there. You can see it all the time. For example, most guys go to work every day, help out around the house, help cook and take care of the kids (“Kitchen Bitches”) … and that’s not terribly sexy and appealing. But it’s absolutely necessary for the nuclear family.

    It’s interestingly enough, not men arguing that women should all be articially inflated Pam Anderson-alikes, always revving their motors, and if they are not men are justified in sleeping around. It’s women who argue that boring old Dad ought to take one for the team while she chases the local Biker gangster, or the functional equivalent after racking up those partners, to the point of no real bonding ability.

    And there is a huge difference in the kind of male adventure stories, from the Iliad to say, the Maltese Falcon. In all of them, there was the idea that men had to have mastery over their emotions, who they had sex with, and in a word, restraint. The bad boy has none. That’s what makes him exciting to women, but he’s destructive to any society. Bad Boy Paris screwing another man’s wife brought down Troy. Nice guy Beowulf (in the story) was neither boastful nor greedy, fought one monster and it’s son, and late in life, a dragon (that had no connection to his earlier adventures). The bad boy will not follow the rules, which makes him “hot” to women but destructive in any real social sense, as men won’t trust them with their wives or intended around, and enough of them and it’s the Hobbesian war of all against all.

    The Bible was filled of course, with Old Testament, Babylonian inspired Bad Boys, like King David and King Solomon. The Greek-influence New Testament, was basically Jewish mysticism and monotheism, mixed with Greek Humanism and philosophy.

    White Girl — your assumption error. Most rapes are done by Black and Hispanic men, their main (but no means exclusive) targets Black and Hispanic women. Frat boy rapes are quite rare, given the risks and social conditioning (it’s considered uncool). You can look it up (tedious, they try to obfuscate the numbers for pc reasons) at the DOJ.

    The TV show Law and Order is not like real life. Real life villains resemble Fiddy Cent more than they do the ex-husbands of the tired old harpies that write that show.

    You’re also dumb about men, the way nearly all women are (you are certainly not alone there). You’re a woman. If you are around a 4 or higher, getting laid is as easy as falling out of bed. For a guy, not even a 9 or a 10 can do that. They ALL have to work at it. Even Brad Pitt. EVEN HIM. All Angelina Jolie had to do (back when she was actually hot and not a used up weird/skanky tabloid queen) was sit back and evaluate the suitors. Will it be Billy Bob? Her Brother? Brad?

    Mandy — Sadly your prospects will be fairly dim. At the very least, your husband hunting pool will be far smaller than it could have been.

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  320. @Mandy:

    Forgive me for asking, but I have only recently taken to reading the comments, so I’m not familiar with the cast of players. If this is too forward you can always refuse me asking, but are you a virgin on principle? Or, just because you’re young and you haven’t found the right person yet? Do you have an ascribed set of views regarding virginity?

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  321. @White Girl:

    I think the “slut defense” comes in after a woman realizes what she’s done after 15 years of sleeping around and then decides to try to nab a husband.

    ie Blanche in A Streetcar Named Desire.

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  322. and still feeling phantom cultural restraints.

    Women especially struggle with their internalized voices of their parents. Especially their mothers.

    Men start to become individuals at about age nine, and sharply so again at about age 17. By 22 we are expected to be able to lead a household, with only slight guidance from our mentors. Eventually we hope to be able to be mentors who are capable of completely different views than our parents.

    Women rarely consider to expect that of themselves. They are more unidfferentiated from the social expectations that they take on.

    But that means that if you change the social expectations, sooner or later they are likely to also change their internal expectations.

    Many do, at least. Some people remain fixed. I call those the True Believers. The type of people who believe the same thing today that they did when they were five, regardless of whatever they learned to the contrary in the meantime. The Jeesus loves me, yes I know! Cause my Mommy told me so!” crowd. The people freaked out about what happens after death, always worrying about being good.

    But I don’t care about those sub humans. Not worth thinking about. Real people are fluid.

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  323. White Girl, re Slut Defense, see:

    http://www.pualingo.com/pua-definitions/anti-slut-defense-asd/

    Basically, no girl wants to be known to her circle that she’s slutty, or her male acquaintances. A woman in the US could have considerable partners, say 15 or 20 guys and still act like a “nice girl.”

    The point of urban anonymity is that a girl can act on her desires, with guys who are not in her work, or friends, or parents, or community’s circle, and still be thought of as a nice girl.

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  324. @xsplat:

    I can’t fairly argue with you on what it’s like in India, since I’m not really familiar with the dynamics of the caste system, so I’m going to have to concede. But, you’re using arguments from an opportunistic third-world standpoint, i.e. girls in villages putting out in exchange for a chance to get out, and it being better socially perceived in India for women to be chaste in order to nab high-class Bhramins, not whites. That doesn’t really explain the phenomenon of culturally and socially conservative children of immigrants born in North America.

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  325. White girl – are you living in India now? How do you know these things that you speak of?

    I find it incredulous that people don’t date and have unmarried sex in cities in India. I don’t believe it and I call bullshit. I’m sure you are wrong, misinformed, and out of touch.

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  326. Mandy, my point is, in the mainstream USA, it doesn’t matter. What to speak of having slept around for 15 years or having been divorced, twice or thrice, somebody will marry you.

    There is no social stigma tied to divorce or sleeping around. In fact, its EXPECTED.

    Sure, there are pocket of sub-cultures like Hasid Jews, the Amish, etc, where this does not fly, but by and large in mainstream American culture, I hardly know anyone below the age of 70 who has been married and has not been divorced.

    I don’t know any single moms or dads who are not dating or trying to, despite having kids who are not too hip on being exposed to mom or dad’s rotation of strangers.

    Spend time with you kids people!

    Its a mess.

    To think that other cultures around the world are the same, like xsplat implies, is an insult to those cultures!

    Sure they got their issues too, but man, when it comes to the marriage and family department, there is NO comparison.

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  327. @S:

    Well, I don’t know. As it is, I had opportunities to lose my virginity in the past, but I decided not to. I wouldn’t say I’m waiting until marriage; as conservative as I sound, my parents are not as conservative as me. When I had “the talk” I was just told to wait until I found someone who would respect me and someone I loved, and of course, to use protection.

    So it’s not like I come from an extreme conservative, religious upbringing.

    I’m still young, and things will probably change. I currently have a boyfriend (my first). (I’m probably asking to be laughed at.) I waited until now to enter a relationship with someone because I want to be with someone I feel really comfortable with; a lot of people my age, I’ve noticed, tend to date each other because,”OMG HE LIKES ME, AND HE BOUGHT ME A ROSE, I LIKE HIM NOW.” It’s kind of weird. I have one friend who keeps trying to get her boyfriend to lose weight, to do this, to do that. I think if she waited for someone she actually gelled with, things would be a lot better. Why get someone you don’t gel with so well, and try to mold them into your idea of how you want them against their will?

    I don’t know. I’m happy the way things are now, and who knows? Maybe a few months from now I won’t be a virgin. Maybe a few years. I just don’t want it to be something I regret or feel ashamed about.

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  328. @xsplat:

    So, I just read your previous comment. I’ve heard that argument before, in a different context. I guess it makes sense for the purposes of the argument since I can’t offer up any male examples.

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  329. @xsplat:

    “Women especially struggle with their internalized voices of their parents. Especially their mothers.”

    Holy crap, the day I start hearing my mother’s voice in my head is the day that someone should do me a favor and lock me up in the looney bin.

    That woman is insane.

    I mean, I love her, but no.

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  330. S “I can’t fairly argue with you on what it’s like in India”

    I can’t argue about that either. I’ve never been there.

    I dated a Pakistani girl once, but she was an apostate.

    I have lived in a variety of cultures though, and experience tells me that the basics of human interaction are fixed and universal. Culture is mostly about how people agree to handle fixed resources.

    Change the resources, and culture changes.

    These days, with birth control, many women fuck freely. Anyone who things otherwise is out of touch.

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  331. @xsplat:

    Are you from Asia?

    Or do you just travel around the world freely?

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  332. I agree with Obsidian about the value of game in these situations. I mean, if what you had was honestly consensual sex there are only a few things that can protect you from a next day accusation of rape
    1. A high quality video with sound of the main event.
    2. The woman is sane enough and moral enough to not blame you entirely if she has regrets.
    3. You made sure she does not have regrets. Leave her believing the sperm dose she was offered should not impugn her woman-value. Because of your high value.

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  333. Xsplat, there are plenty of 30 year old virgins in India. There culture values celibacy before marriage and sometimes for whole life if you don’t marry.

    Brahmins marry other brahmins so the concept of a lower caste girl saving her virginity so she can “nab” a brahmin is non-existent.

    Yes, India has a sex industry. Yes, now porn is unfortunately there too, for those who have internet access (not everybody).

    But due to its spiritual culture and many other factors, many, many people do not have sex until marriage and there is no OPPURTUNITY to, unless you pay to have sex with a prostitute which of course, most guys do not (but a lot do, depending on their circumstances).

    Am I saying that there is absolutely NO pre-marital sex in India. No. There is some, I’m sure.

    But you cannot imagine what a HUGE difference NOT having a dating culture makes. Marriages are arranged and often the only interaction a man will have with women is with women in his family.

    Even the concept of male-female friendship as we know it in the West does not exist there. Sometimes, a friend of your brother may be considered your “brother” to, or a friend of your sister may be considered your “sister” to, but it is really, really, really different than here.

    Men DO NOT LEAVE HOME EVER. Most Indian men are expected to live with their parents forever. The bride is brought to live with her in-laws. Family is EVERYTHING in that culture.

    Can that be smothering at times? Yes.

    I’m not saying its all good. But its one reason why they are so successful and industrious. Stable family backgrounds with very little drama and no divorce.

    Let’s say a young couple from the village happen to “fall in love”. They have to sneak around to meet – even if they are both 27 years old. There is no place to date and to be seen sitting together in public would be “scandalous”. They will have to sneak around and make plans on how they are going to break it to their families that they want to marry each other, despite being from seperate castes. The families may approve or not. Or one family may approve while the other one doesn’t.

    That is India.

    No dating.

    Unless you go to Mumbai. However, try dating a woman in Mumbai and see how far you get. There are blogs written about this. Even in Mumbai it would be hard to get someone to date you.

    Of course there are always prostitutes and “dancing girls” like Maurice referred to above in Mumbai. But that’s not “dating”.

    While its a hospitable culture, it is also a very closed culture when it comes to intimate relationships.

    Unless you went to a very poor village and some poor man offered you his uneducated daughter in the hopes that her marrying you would financially help his family. That I have seen.

    Where there is arranged marriage and everyone is guaranteed a spouse, there is no need for dating or “game” and the people do seem A LOT HAPPIER than the people here in USA.

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  334. Mandy! XD

    @xsplat:

    Are you from Asia?

    Or do you just travel around the world freely?

    That’s a hillarious comment. It’s funny that you would think that a man who writes as i do could possibly have arisen out of Asian culture.

    Asians have a completely different mindset. No Eastern educated man could make the comments that I do. Those guys are so fucking pussy whipped by their mommas they are incapable of an independant thought.

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  335. White girl, you never answered my question.

    Why are you such an Indian culture expert? Are you living their?

    One man I correspond with professionally who lives there, a local, tells me I’d have no problem at all in the dating scene there.

    Seems to me you don’t want to insult the pure culture of India. But you are not there, in the streets, with your finger on the pulse of what happens in the back alleys.

    And from your other posts, you come off as kind of stupid, and not worth talking to. Not exactly a troll, but just air headed and inexperienced, full of your ideas, but without much if any experience.

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  336. I have lived there for a long time, over a decade.

    When this man says you would have no problem breaking into the “dating scene”…what dating scene is he talking about?

    Mumbai?

    There are some nightclubs there that rich folk hang out in. Otherwise he may be insinuating the “foreign dating culture”….. India has lots of foreign tourists so maybe that is what he’s talking about.

    Ask him where the hell in India is a “dating scene”.

    Jodhpur? LOL.

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  337. And if it seems a contradiction to say that the basics of human interaction are universal, and then to go on and say that an Asian educated and enculturated man couldn’t possibly express the ideas that I do, you might be curious to take a look at the Dating Asians section of my blog.

    The universals between differing cultures exist. And some huge differences do as well. There is a big tension.

    It’s by living in different cultures that you get to tease out what is universal, and what isn’t.

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  338. I forget what city he’s in, whitegirl.

    He thinks the girls – office girls, store clerks, whatever – regular girls – would be lining up for the opportunity to date me. He thinks it would be a simple matter of deciding what I want.

    I wouldn’t know – but from my experiences in Asia so far, it didn’t strike me as an unusual idea.

    I know of the culture you speak, whitey. It’s dying. Dying everywhere. Where it used to thrive, it’s dying. It’s shrinking and dying.

    Face it.

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  339. “”The universals between differing cultures exist. And some huge differences do as well. There is a big tension.

    It’s by living in different cultures that you get to tease out what is universal, and what isn’t.””

    Exactly. And that’s exactly what I’ve done.

    Dating culture is NOT universal, however, male-female issues are.

    Indians are wise to keep those issues strictly between legally married spouses for the most part.

    But who knows, maybe in another 50-100 years they’ll be just as messed up as Americans feigning some sort of “slut defense”. LOL! That was classic.

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  340. @Mandy:

    Regarding the “internalized” voices of our mothers, it’s something much more subtle than echoing moral sentiments or handed down knowledge from Maman. I think the idea is that girls don’t develop boundaries as individuals until late in life, and even then, we are left with very strong external sensitivities. Boys develop as individuals at a young age because they are pushed to do more entrepreneurial, and individual-centered activities.

    Like


  341. @mandy

    Since you referenced Blanche in A Streetcar Named Desire. and you are 17, I’ll let you know I auditioned for our National Theatre School with a piece from the play when I was a 17 year old virgin. It was a bit over reaching (no shit sherlock) and I didn’t get in. Or maybe it was my piece from Lady Macbeth…hmmmmm.

    Okay, okay I know off topic, back to your discussion. hehe

    Like


  342. And wait a minute. You had lived there for a decade. Which decade are you talking about?

    And how social were you, and with what crowd? And why do you consider your crowd to be representative of all crowds in India?

    You know, I’ve lived in a getto in the Phillipines. I’ve been in the trenches. I’ve lived in a Bankok campus. In a small and a big and a medium sized town in Bali. Chiang Mai. All those places have strong ties to a history of the kind of culture you are talking about.

    But that cultures is dead or dying. It’s the culture of peoples parents.

    Like


  343. Women everywhere fuck. Get over it.

    Like


  344. @xsplat:

    “He thinks the girls – office girls, store clerks, whatever – regular girls – would be lining up for the opportunity to date me. He thinks it would be a simple matter of deciding what I want.

    I wouldn’t know – but from my experiences in Asia so far, it didn’t strike me as an unusual idea.”

    Why wouldn’t it strike you as an unusual idea? I’m curious (it’s not intended as a jibe). Is it the idea of opportunity? You mentioned whites in SE Asia were perceived as higher class.

    Like


  345. So many things that women do they do just to test a man. A certain amount of physical and verbal resistance before sex fits into this category too.

    Why put up with the absurd tests?

    Didn’t someone on here already express that to be his preference?

    Gee, I wonder who did so? 🙂

    Indeed, which is why I tell men not to overdo the porn.

    In contrast, I see nothing wrong with porn, and I advocate for its increased usage.

    Like


  346. “He thinks the girls – office girls, store clerks, whatever – regular girls – would be lining up for the opportunity to date me.”

    But first they would have to have a concept of “dating” to begin with. The only place a “store clerk” might have a concept of “dating” in India would be Mumbai, and that is a big “might” there, depending on her level of “modernization”.

    Back in the 80s it was considered somewhat prestigious for a DBD, desi born desi girl to marry an ABCD, American Born Confused Desi boy, or NRI (non-resident Indian), because America was seen as a place to “get ahead” professionally/financially. Not so anymore.

    The rate of DBD women marrying NRI men has declined drastically. Indian women now see they have more oppurtunities in India than the USA and they want to stay in the country of their family, friends, culture and roots.

    Other than Indian men who were born or who have migrated to the West, other types of “western men” – blacks, whites, non-Indians, are not really all that appealing to Indian women, in general, though there are always exceptions.

    But Indian women are very marriage and family oriented. Dating for dating’s sake does not exist. Those few who do date (city), date for marriage.

    Of course, you might be able to find a small sub-set of “swingers” in Mumbai. I think they must have such a group there.

    But your average young, single store clerk girl? Naw. I just can’t see that, given my 10 plus years experience in that country. But who knows?

    Best of luck!

    Like


  347. Best of luck!

    I wonder if you are aware that other people are aware of what you mean when you say “best of luck!”

    It’s blatantly passive aggressive.

    Like


  348. it is easier for us to find someone who is over the standard (”good enough”) in sexual attraction

    From what I’ve seen, for most men, it’s “she’s breathing and said yes” in lieu of any remotely sensible standards of beauty or sex appeal.

    Like


  349. And other obvious thing you might assume people don’t notice is that you chose not to answer my questions about who you hung with, and when, in India, and why you think your observations about those around you applied to all of India then, and why you think they still do now.

    Like


  350. No really. In India, you will need “luck” in more ways than one. Its unlike any other place in this world man, unlike any other place.

    You’ll love and you’ll hate it, but you can never just “like” it.

    Its wild!

    And its held onto cultural traditions that are thousands of years old. We are talking cradle of civilization here.

    Its really amazing that despite having been invaded so many times, it is intact with its original religions, traditions and ways of life. You don’t see that even in Africa other than in the jungles.

    India is really far out. You will be living in several centuries at once. Its addicting, its frustrating, its crazy and its the epitome of peace, all in one.

    I would definitely say go. But make it about something other than “game” otherwise you will be disappointed.

    Like


  351. From what I’ve seen, for most men, it’s “she’s breathing and said yes” in lieu of any remotely sensible standards of beauty or sex appeal.

    And this is a problem, how?

    Like


  352. Yes, S, the more remote the Asian location and the more unfamiliar the locals are with westerners, the more idealized western men are.

    It gives us a massive advantage over the locals.

    Like


  353. And Whitey, I’m not saying that cultural differences don’t exist, I’m saying that the cultural effect of the birth control pill continues to have the same growing effect on all cultures, and that the old ways you describe are universally shrinking and disappearing. Those are the ways of parents and grandparents. And where they are not, you can see them starting to become so.

    I’m saying that the sameness between cultures is that people are opportunists. Women do what’s in their best interest.

    As you said, Brahmins consider other Brahmins the best opportunity. We agree.

    Except when they don’t.

    Except when the white guy is seen as the better opportunity.

    Women are the same everywhere. Show them better opportunities, and all this culture you are talking about is quickly forgotten.

    Like


  354. But first they would have to have a concept of “dating” to begin with.

    It’s true that dating is a foreign concept in Asia. But they are learning fast. Very fast.

    And what you probably can’t know, as a woman, is the effect a man can have on a woman. His frame of reference becomes the girls, by the force of his personality.

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  355. But first they would have to have a concept of “dating” to begin with.

    It’s true that dating is a foreign concept in Asia. But they are learning fast. Very fast.

    And what you probably can’t know, as a woman, is the effect a man can have on a woman of a different culture. His frame of reference becomes the girls, by the force of his personality.

    Or maybe you can know that – maybe you’ve been bowled over by a foreigner, and started to see the world in a whole new perspective.

    Like


  356. But Xpat, I explained above why even “marrying abroad” (as they say in India) is no longer considered a good oppurtunity. India is advancing in job oppurtunites and her living standard is improving. Indian women are no longer eager to marry an NRI. They want to stay in India.

    Its different with uneducated villagers. They MIGHT be willing to marry a white dude. But because of the family dynamic, most Indian women want to stay near their families. Their cultural traditions all rotate around the family – immediate and extended. Will you find exceptions? Very few. Like I said, India is unlike any place you can imagine on this planet. Its traditions are very in tact.

    Phillipines? Phew. Forget it. No comparison.

    I don’t think white men have ever been considered a “better oppurtunity” for women in India. I do know one village girl who by some chance married a white dude. I think he came there looking for a wife. Of course, no educated woman would have him. He wasn’t able to nab a woman of his same level but he did find a village woman and he lives there with her and provided her with an English tutor so that they can communicate and treats her like a queen (something a village Indian man probably won’t do, but aging white men will).

    But this is marriage. That woman had and still has no idea what “dating” is.

    Like I said, in Mumbai, you may find an English speaking educated woman to “date” you. That may very well be possible. But outside of Mumbai? Almost impossible.

    India has no “dating culture”.

    I don’t know how many times I have to spell that out for you.

    Stick to the clubs in Mumbai where the aspiring models and B list Bollywood wannabes hang. There you might get some Brown Yoni Juice. If you have connections with some flim producer that is.

    Like


  357. Xpat, I checked out your blog. You claim to be “ugly”.

    Just warning you, that the type of woman I think you might want to date in India (educated, English speaking, attractive) is very picky regarding looks. Indians have a certain “aesthetic” that they go for.

    And the less educated, non-English speaking women don’t date or have any idea what it is.

    So….. I’m now REALLY curious where your Indian friend thinks you will have no problem breaking into the “dating scene” in India, considering all of this.

    Like


  358. I’m not planning any travel to India Whitey – what gave you that impression?

    I suggest to you that your ideas of who dates and who doesn’t are not grounded in very much on the street evidence. I wouldn’t know, as I’ve never been there. I believe this because I know firsthand about conservative marry me first cultures, have met many people who live in such cultures, and have seen many examples of such cultures changing.

    We already agreed that many Indians don’t prefer whites. I said so much myself even before you brought it up. Stop pretending that’s contentious.

    I also agree that the culture you describe exists.

    I disagree with your notion that it’s as pervasive or as solit as you would like to think.

    I’m certain you idealize, perhaps even fetishise, your romantic and idealistic notion of this superior culture that fascinates you.

    That way is on the way out.

    Like


  359. And this is a problem, how?

    Men shouldn’t degrade themselves by having sex with subpar women.

    Like


  360. You know nothing of India and have never been there so your opinions are baseless.

    You stated that if white was considered high caste in India that the women would be “ballin’ the marines” there.

    Well, there are dozens of castes and India and the lower dozen women are NOT ballin the higher dozen.

    India does not work like that.

    You are not going, so just forget it. It doesn’t matter who won’t date you there because you will never know.

    And by the way, a non-Indian cannot fit into the Indian caste system in any way – high or low. We are casteless. Not part of the system in any way, shape or form.

    Still, Indian people are hospitable and will treat you with friendliness and respect, in general.

    End of conversation. This is just silly.

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  361. @WhiteGirl:

    “Indians have a certain “aesthetic” that they go for.”

    I’m curious to know what this aesthetic is… I often find that a lot of Indian people share caucausian features, skin colour barred. But again, I might be blind to the difference because of my mixed Euro-Indian ancestry. Certainly, Indians have less distinctive features than East Asians, and Africans. What sort of aesthetic is considered attractive in India?

    Like


  362. I think the “culture first” crowd really has no clue of the impact of the birth control pill.

    They are just so way far gone out of it up their asses in mental speculation. Women seem innately “culture first”. As if everything were culturally created.

    There is no place where there is birth control cheaple available to women that is not hugely different culturally now than it was when prior to accessible birth control.

    Culture is weak.

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  363. I think the “culture first” crowd really has no clue of the impact of the birth control pill.

    They are just so way far gone out of it up their asses in mental speculation. Women seem innately “culture first”. As if everything were culturally created.

    There is no place where there is birth control cheaply available to women that is not hugely different culturally now than it was when prior to accessible birth control.

    Culture is weak.

    Like


  364. And by the way, a non-Indian cannot fit into the Indian caste system in any way – high or low. We are casteless.

    I can’t speak for India, but in highly caste stratified Thailand, that is precicely our appeal. We are outside the system. The bad boy rebel – above it all.

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  365. Xpat, culture is weak in the countries YOU have been to. NOT India. Believe me. Everyone who goes there says its unlike any place else they have ever been. You can read up on that if you have any interest.

    Birth control in India. ha ha. If this weren’t a public forum I could tell you a thing or two about my personal experience with that.

    Bottom line: in India MARRIED WOMEN are ASHAMED to go to the pharmacy and purchase it. We are talking MARRIED WOMEN here, in their 30s and above.

    Exceptions are always there, but they prove the rule more than anything else.

    I’m not attached to India being a certain way. I’m just telling you how it is. I don’t romanticize the place because I have seen its dirty underbelly. I ‘ve experienced some of it first hand and I by no means say the place is perfect.

    In fact, this ignorance, shyness and taboo around dating, relationships and sexuality is one of India’s problems in a sense, but I’m not going to get into that topic here.

    S –

    As far as what Indians like in the beauty department, they like “refined” features. Clearly defined, whether the skin tone be dark or light, but “good features” should be there.
    Don’t really know how to explain it further than that.

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  366. Well, there are dozens of castes and India and the lower dozen women are NOT ballin the higher dozen.

    You dense blockhead. You really have no clue what my point is, do you? Or do you just refuse to be consider it?

    Women are opportunists. Get it? They will go against their cultural upbringing, IF it is a better opportunity.

    We are not arguing about which is the better opportunity for Indians. We are not arguing about if whites are considered the better opportunity.

    Whatever is better, women will dump their culture, in favor of that.

    If a low caste woman got a proposition from a Braman, she would jump on that cock faster than she should say “bye Mom!”.

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  367. on July 7, 2009 at 3:33 am Steve Johnson

    White Girl

    “I’m still not getting why any woman in 2009 United States would need a “slut defense”.

    What is the standard?”

    Every girl’s standard for slut is the same:

    Any girl who is easier than I am

    A guy’s standard for slut is different. Why does it matter? Because quality guys (you know, the ones that women diet for, dress for, wear makeup for, etc.) don’t want to commit to a slut.

    In America in 2009, the social rules are gone but the genetic instincts remain. Women with ancestors from Europe / Asia still have modules in their brains that say “find a man to support you in the long, cold winter”. You don’t get a man to support you by letting him think you’re easy. Hence one of the elements of game, never act the beta. The more you look like good relationship material, the less of her sexual side you’ll get to see.

    Like


  368. LOL, xsplat. I’m admiring your patience for reinforcing and rewording the same point at least a dozen times now. I’m interested to see if you’ll try to rephrase or simplify it one last time.

    Like


  369. “If a low caste woman got a proposition from a Braman, she would jump on that cock faster than she should say “bye Mom!”.

    Again your cultural ignorance, which is understandable because you have never been there.

    In India if a lower caste and higher caste couple fall in love and want to marry, if their families do not approve, they more often than not, will not marry.

    So you are wrong that woman will renounce her family to marry a high caste cock.

    In India people do not live for themselves, its about family, caste, community, culture. There are very few “rugged individualists” in India. Usually the “individualists”, if any, are yogis in the Himalayas meditating and growing 6 feet long dread locks.

    Even here in the United States, amongst Desis who are grown adult men and women, working, earning their own money, and even living separately from their parents, they will rarely marry someone who their parents do not approve of, despite that potential spouse presenting them with higher “oppurtunity”. Their individuality and oppurtunism just does not extend that far.

    Again there are exceptions. They prove the rule.

    But like I said, there will be poor village oppurtunist dads in India who MIGHT offer their uneducated daughters in MARRIAGE to foreign dudes, as they see that as a financial boon to the family. But again, its MARRIAGE, not dating.

    Forget dating in India. Not gonna happen.

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  370. on July 7, 2009 at 3:53 am Steve Johnson

    “In India if a lower caste and higher caste couple fall in love and want to marry, if their families do not approve, they more often than not, will not marry.”

    Missing the point.

    “So you are wrong that woman will renounce her family to marry a high caste cock. ”

    Doesn’t follow from the premises.

    Some high caste dude isn’t going to marry some low caste chick because his family wouldn’t approve and in a messed up country like India you’ve got nothing without your extended family.

    The low caste chick? She’d be on it in a heartbeat if she believed it was real rather than a set up to get her into bed. Indian women aren’t magical creatures that are different from all other women.

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  371. Again, I grew up in India so I’m not going to argue about what I know, lived and breathed with some random dudes on the net who have never been there.

    I told you how it is. Believe it or not.

    Its whateva.

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  372. Ah, that’s why you didn’t want to show your hand.

    You grew up in India. You left there when you were 10.

    I’m done with you – you are insincere in your efforts at honesty.

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  373. Growing up in India means leaving at 10?

    I hadn’t even gone there til after 10!!!

    What does “growing up” mean to you?

    To me it means coming of age. I lived through my entire teens in India and beyond. But I don’t owe you random strangers an explanation of my life.

    I thought it was creepy that some strange dudes I never met were trying to get personal info out of me regarding my life after I told them that lived for well over a decade in India. That’s all you need to know.

    Who are you that you need to know details.

    Weird.

    Was I asking for YOUR details?

    Y’all need to keep it on what you know – getting po filipinas to turn out their yonis on ya in exchange for a few dollas!

    Know your place and work within it.

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  374. White Girl,
    I’ve read your comments over on the White Women, Black Men thread. You’re entitled to your opinion.

    As for your comments wrt India, I too know abit about the country, its people, history and culture and can agree w/a good bit of what Xsplat has said. India now has more middle/upper classes than the entire population of the USA and growing, while at the same time it also has to contend with grinding poverty, among a great many other things (infrastructure in most of India is virtually nonexistant). Among the “New Delhi set” if you will, Indian Women enjoy a situation quite similar to their Western counterparts-they want the bennies of being a protected and privileged Bibi when it suits them, but they also want the bennies of being an “independent Woman”-and its really taking a lot of Indian Men for a serious ride.

    I can also tell you that quite a few Indian expats marry non-Indians, notably Whites, and to be quite frank, Jews. I happen to know a “HinJew” wedding that took place in two countries just last year, here in the USA out on the west coast, and then in Southern India. The groom was an Indian Man and the bride was a White Jewish Woman.

    Arranged marriages have been a staple of Indian life for centuries, but that’s beginning to change, thanks to the ever-forward march of Feminism, which I’ve spoken to above. Nowadays many of India’s more well-heeled Women will not accept whomever their parents select for them, and instead insist on having a say in the matter, at the least. And Women, being who they are in a time when their choices can be fulfilled, tend not to be too crazy w/hooking up w/Sanjay the IT guy from Bangalore; instead she wants Gopal, the suave and exciting MBA hotshot in Bombay’s financial district, or top flight surgeon in New Delhi. Trust me when I tell you, places like Edison NJ is teeming w/sandal wearing, single, and *horny* IT guys straight from India’s Silicon Valley who can’t get an Indian gal to save his life, again thanks to Feminism.

    There are several guys of Indian background here in the forum who can go into much more in-depth detail about what I’m talking about here, and, there is an Indian PUA named Matador. You can look him up online. Tood is one of the Indian guys who frequently comments here.

    A good example of the kind of “have it all” attitude I’m speaking about wrt Indian Women can be found on the blog Lovely Sexy Beauty, found on WordPress. Of particular interest is her post Use & Throw, something that I’ve known quite a few Indian guys have fallen prey to, still steeped they are in the “protocols” of their daddy’s world of an older India. That India is fast fading. Again, Tood can speak most directly to this.

    What’s so ironic about all this, is that India is the birthplace of what perhaps is the world’s first treatise on Game-the Kama Sutra, written thousands of years ago, and is only a part of a rich erotic history of the subcontinent. Present day India is largely bereft of this tonality however, and more of a reflection of an odd mish-mash of a kind of renewed Hindu conservatism that grew out of the British Raj era.

    The Obsidian

    Like


  375. I see much bigger issues in India than availability of Birth Control. The real determinant of female behavior, everywhere, is broader than that. The real determinant is womens perception/belief that they can thrive in life without the protection and involvment of any particular man. Traditional cultures like Indias support women by putting them with a man and working hard in every way to keep them together. Even if an Indian (Hindu) woman had the personal financial resources to live independently, doing so would be anathema to her family.
    Hinduism in SE Asia is highly Pruitanical in practice. In their movies they can barely even kiss, forget nipple shots.
    From the perspective of Game, this is a society that puts a lot of effort into getting young women to be satisfied with whatever (mostly beta) guy that is channeled into her life by the respective families.
    To get all the way to SATC level female independence, a lot more is needed that BC pills. They need abundant easy high paying, inside, climate controlled building gyno-jobs – ones that pay enough for single parenthood by choice. They need a consumerist culture that allows one to buy food, clothing, etc conveniently and affordably so yoiung people need only some money to live apart from family.
    It is an historical accident that these changes can to the US right as the Pill arrived. Their impact together in the late 50s early 60s gave us the exotic, never seen before hot-house flower called “feminism” and “free love”.

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  376. Saying no to sex does not make it rape. Rape is sex accomplished by force, not merely sex against her will. That is, she has to resist to the best of her ability. If she lets you do it, no matter how clear her lack of consent is, then it isn’t rape. Whether the girl says no is mostly irrelevant. All this talk about saying “no” as if it were the defining characteristic of rape demonstrates that this forum is populated by feminists, as is apparently Roissy himself. It is sad.

    Like


  377. Arpie! Been waiting to get your full report since last we talked. What happened?

    O

    Like


  378. You think you got it bad in the states? See how it is for us here in Sweden….

    http://www.thelocal.se/19296/20090507/

    ‘Make accused rapists prove consent’: experts

    Two legal experts want to see changes to Sweden sex crimes laws to require a man accused of rape to prove he had the consent of the woman with whom he had sex.

    Like


  379. @ Stu: It is a basis of any just legal system that he who asserts must prove along with the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.

    The day that law passes is the day that Sweden declares its law system is about controlling and punishing, not justice. Now would be the time to start shopping for overseas real estate.

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  380. Sweden is feminazi heaven – basically, they figure that because the conviction rate on “rape” (their definition is very broad) is so low that they need to change the rules to make it easier to convict. In effect the rule is men are guilty if a woman says so.

    I’d love to leave (I’m originally from England) but I have a kid here – I was dumb enough to marry a Swede only to have her fuck off once her gina got tingly over her professor at school.

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  381. Does the Scandinavian feminist establishment have a double-standard on alleged rapes by Swedes vs alleged rapes by immigrants?

    It seems to me that they bend over backwards to whitewash and excuse the latter… for example, you can be arrested for pointing out the high rates of Paki/Somali rapes, and a Norwegian minister of this-or-that once said that if local women want to be safe, they should respect the new multicultural standards of dress and stop showing so much leg.

    I don’t know this stuff for a fact, just impressions I get, so it would be good to get someone who knows the Scandi situation better than I do to shed some light here.

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  382. PA,
    The even bigger question to me is, WHY can the native White guys can’t seem to stop the feminization that is taking place there? And Norway and elsewhere in that region? They either truly support it, or they’re powerless to stop it, which makes them a sexual nonstarter for the Women of the country.

    Focusing in on the relatively few non-White/Muslim immigrants seems to me to be analogous to putting one’s finger in a dam.

    O

    Like


  383. Obsidian, I don’t know, never been to that part of Europe except Finland and I haven’t kept up with the news on Scandinavia.

    But to attempt to answer your question with my own question — why didn’t black folks seem to stop slavery and Jim Crow?

    The answer to both questions is that you can’t fight the power. Simple as that. The reason immigrants in Sweden rape with impunity is because this suits the elites. The reason blacks were kept down is because this suited the elites. The reason blacks overcame Jim Crow is because a faction among the elite wanted it that way.

    There are European guys who try to stop the feminization / multiculturalization of their countries. Skinheads, right wing bloggers, and marginal political parties.

    But they are fighting the power, and when you do that, you are guaranteed to lose, unless there is a strong faction among the ruling elite that is sympathetic to your views.

    Like


  384. White Girl

    and her giggly Bollywood obsessed crew
    went slumming (literally)

    one day

    and got a Mumbai
    bootleg of

    Mississippi Marsala

    and fell
    in luv

    Like


  385. @Fire

    *aoefe claps hands rapidly and grins

    Very good!

    Like


  386. @arpagus:

    Saying no to sex does not make it rape. Rape is sex accomplished by force, not merely sex against her will.

    so, men should be free to try and force women to have sex against their will so long as they’re not clubbing them over the head and dragging them into an alley?

    your argument seems to imply that the best way to combat the excesses of radical feminism is by resorting to our own excesses. i respectfully disagree with such thinking. how about a definition of rape that both forces women to think about their behavior before the fact and forces men to rely on more than their physical stature as a means of seduction?

    Like


  387. @PA

    “Does the Scandinavian feminist establishment have a double-standard on alleged rapes by Swedes vs alleged rapes by immigrants?”

    I don’t think so – it seems to be that the large amount of “real” rapes are done by immigrants – but there is no excuses made for them.

    Sweden changed the law in a couple of key ways regarding rape: 1) Rape is pretty much any and all sexual assault 2) Each occurence is counted as a separate offence. Both of these have contributed to extremely high statistical numbers but many of these get kicked out because it’s a case of “she said, he said” – which the feminazis jump on as proof that the law has to change to increase convictions.

    @Obsidian:

    “WHY can the native White guys can’t seem to stop the feminization that is taking place there?”

    It’s because the Swedes (and other Scandi socialists) have had a very long head start on the rest of the world in indoctrinating the population. Most of the guys who are out and about meeting women today don’t know any better.

    Like


  388. @comment_whatever
    This case is especially amusing because even the accuser admits the ‘rapist’ didn’t ejaculate. He stopped right in the middle. Not kidding. The non-ejaculating rapist!

    are you suggesting that ejaculation is requisite for rape?

    Like


  389. Lance,
    Although I have my own personal problems w/Arpie’s political rape argument, as I call it, I can still see his point.

    The bottomline is this: in an age where Women have both the motive and means to make their choices manifest, guys w/minimal to no Game wind up being the biggest losers in the 21st century dating and mating market. As Arpie and others have rightly pointed out, even in the best of times most guys didn’t go on to reproduce: where about 80% of all our ancestors are female, only about half that are male, *if that*. And again, that was back in the day when rape of the Alley-Oop kind was an everyday occurance. Among other things.

    I think we really do need to consider what Devlin has rightly called the forgotten Men-the losers of the new Sexual Marketplace-and they will be high in number. And because war and disease are for the most part a thing of the past-as are workplace accidents (how many guys in the room right now earn their living at the construction site or on the factory floor?)-means that they’ll be more Men living longer. Back in the day one reason why fewer guys lived long enough to sire babies was because they got killed by either disease, wars of on the job. That’s not the case today.

    So, while we make the case for Game as being Man’s Last Best Hope for Poon in this world, we also have to take up the very real problem of what to do w/the millions of Men who simply don’t have the skills, or interest, in wooing the panties off today’s Woman. And since it is virtually impossible to get Women to address this issue, owing to their biological realities, its something we Men are gonna have to get the ball rolling on-at least for now. Maybe, hopefully, caring Women will join in, too, and help us legalize prostitution and other things to help these guys out.

    But its something we need to take seriously.

    O

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  390. @o:

    the problem with radical feminism is that it allows women to have their cake and eat it too. they can have equality under the law, but still reap the benefit or policies enacted purely for their benefit. they can spend their youth fucking alphas, then settle down with a beta-provider, then leave him with half his shit to pursue more alphas. i could go on and on. but the point is that feminism has given women all sorts of new abilities, but in many cases has absolved them from the responsibilities of their actions. that’s a bad combination.

    and, yes, beta males are the big losers in this. what else is new? all of that is less-than-ideal, but so what. i’m tired of whining; whining from women, whining from minorities, and now whining from white males. nothing in this life is promised, and that includes access to women. if you want more women, then go out and earn it. accomplish something, learn to seduce, settle, whatever. i don’t buy the idea that we should make pussy a public entitlement like education or healthcare. we already live in a society where too much is promised and too little expected.

    if you want to help beta males, then teach them to stop being so beta.

    Like


  391. “‘Make accused rapists prove consent’: experts

    Two legal experts want to see changes to Sweden sex crimes laws to require a man accused of rape to prove he had the consent of the woman with whom he had sex.”

    @Stu — This is also being proposed in feminist legal circles in other countries as well, including the US. The idea is to switch sexual power even more in favor of women – so that women have complete and total, totalitarian control over sex, just as they currently do over reproduction.

    Jessica Valenti edited a collection of feminist essays on this (released in 2008) called “Yes Means Yes: Visions of Female Sexual Power and a World Without Rape”. The basic idea is to change the law to require demonstrating consent in order to, in turn, change the way the bedroom dynamic works, such that women have complete and decisive control there — such that sex is only legitimate if the woman either initiates or clearly and affirmatively consents in an active way. Of course from the legal perspective, this would be unconstitutional in the US (it would presume the accused guilty of rape unless he can prove consent), but I wouldn’t expect that to be seriously considered as a block to this kind of change to the rape laws. After all, rape shield laws are also unconstitutional.

    ======

    “So, while we make the case for Game as being Man’s Last Best Hope for Poon in this world, we also have to take up the very real problem of what to do w/the millions of Men who simply don’t have the skills, or interest, in wooing the panties off today’s Woman. And since it is virtually impossible to get Women to address this issue, owing to their biological realities, its something we Men are gonna have to get the ball rolling on-at least for now. Maybe, hopefully, caring Women will join in, too, and help us legalize prostitution and other things to help these guys out.

    But its something we need to take seriously.”

    @Obsidian —

    I think that the bigger issue is finding something to motivate these guys — many of whom are the backbone for running society, the economy and so on — to keep on investing in themselves and society. I’m skeptical that porn and hookers can achieve that. While I think as many guys should learn the basics of Game as possible, the idea that relationships with women are a luxury reserved for the naturally dominant or those with Game is a recipe for long-term disaster. As you point out, many men simply won’t do well, even with Game.

    This is why I suspect what we are looking at is a gradual decline, no matter what. I doubt that porn, hookers and sex bots will motivate these masses of males to invest in themselves or the broader society to the extent we need them to in order to progress. Unless monogamy is restored (which seems doubtful, since it has never happened in other circumstances historically when it has been relaxed), I don’t forsee anything other than a gradual decline, and the eventual restoration of monogamy once the culture morphs into something new.

    Like


  392. on July 7, 2009 at 11:35 am Dr. Grzlickson

    @ Comment_Whatever

    You just called Kobe Bryant an “NFL Star” like ten times.

    Like


  393. — I’m skeptical that porn and hookers can achieve that.

    I agree with you. What motivates men is not just sex but also intimacy and a shot at family formation.

    — This is why I suspect what we are looking at is a gradual decline, no matter what. […] Unless monogamy is restored (which seems doubtful…]

    I’m guardedly optimistic on this because I don’t think the elite is losing control of civilization. To the contrary, they are firmly in control, and are unlikely to lose it anytime soon.

    When you control the military, police, money, and media, you control everything.

    At the present, feminism suits their purposes. When it no longer does, they will recalibrate and promote monogamy, which will flourish.

    Like


  394. — I’m skeptical that porn and hookers can achieve that.

    I agree with you. What motivates men is not just sex but also intimacy and a shot at family formation.

    — This is why I suspect what we are looking at is a gradual decline, no matter what. […] Unless monogamy is restored (which seems doubtful…]

    I’m guardedly optimistic on this because I don’t think the elite is losing control of civilization. To the contrary, they are firmly in control, and are unlikely to lose it anytime soon.

    When you control the military, police, money, and media, you control everything.

    At the present, feminism suits their purposes. When it no longer does, they will recalibrate and promote monogamy, which will flourish.

    Like


  395. @nova & o:

    I suspect what we are looking at is a gradual decline, no matter what. I doubt that porn, hookers and sex bots will motivate these masses of males to invest in themselves or the broader society to the extent we need them to in order to progress.

    we are facing a gradual decline so long as the entitlement mentality continues, however i do not think it is unavoidable. human beings are capable of extraordinary things when they are properly motivated.

    here’s charles murray making this point better than i can: http://american.com/archive/2009/march-2009/the-europe-syndrome-and-the-challenge-to-american-exceptionalism

    @o:

    i’m sure you have older relatives who like to say that as a black man in america you have to work twice as hard to get ahead. now, i’m sure many here would argue the truth of that statement, but none should take offense to the mentality. in many places that ‘work twice as hard’ mentality has been replaced with a ‘gimme mine’ mentality. this goes right along with your argument that inner-city black culture is the canary in the mine shit. it wasn’t always this way.

    so, yes men need to be able to feel that all the time and effort they invest in themselves and in their families will be rewarded, and that women won’t just up and leave them with half their shit. the moment, however, you make that an entitlement, you’ve defeated the purpose. we cannot get ahead by simple limiting women’s choices. the only way forward is by teaching men to expand theirs.

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  396. PA,
    While I think your attempt to compare Black folk and Slavery/Jim Crow to what’s going on over in the Scandinavian countries is a bit off the mark (there’s no Klan equivalent hanging White guys from trees who disagree w/Feminism over there, for example), you do make a legit point about the role the elites have to play in things. One of the reasons why Jim Crow came to an end in the South was because big business bigwigs saw LOTS of money being lost in keeping the South forcibly segregated; simply put, they saw African Americans as a potentially new emerging consumer market. Theirs was the unseen hand behind lots of court rulings and legislation that brought about Jim Crow’s demise. So yea, I’ll grant you that.

    As for you and Nova’s points, and here I’ll include Lance-look, we all know the deal here. Unless we’re willing to go the Taliban route, ie, make Women go back to a subordinate status w/the credible threat of force, THEY WILL NEVER GO BACK, and as PA rightly observes, there are quite a few Elite Males who like things the way they are, too. And from what I read of history in the Anglosphere, the average White guy simply doesn’t have the Eye of the Tiger like dudes in the Congo or Liberia, or Afghanistan and so on. The very idea of using force against Women in the West is anathema to most of us, even if its for a good purpose. And I’m sorry, trying to reason somebody to give up their goodies has rarely, if ever, worked.

    And don’t get it twisted Lance-I’m not crying in the beer for Beta Males on the outs. Just attempting to come to grips w/the very real public policy implications when we have *so many* losers in the sexual marketplace, that WILL have ripple effects everywhere else in our society. I’m not saying we should pay for ho’s here, I’m saying we should remove the legal barriers to them that have been in place, largely by an odd bedfellows coalition of stompdown Feminists and Bible thumping Conservatives. Its up to the Betas themselves to pay for em once its legal.

    But no matter who don’t like it, we are gonna have to come to grips with some things here, and much to his credit, Roissy has spoken to these themes on many more than one occasion. There have always been winners and losers no matter what time or clime, Lance is right on that note. But even he would have to agree that the dynamics are completely diferent this time around. Men are living longer, fewer have real means to present themselves as viable mate options for females, while said females don’t really need Men much at all in the sense of a provider or even to be around to do the deed-they get the turkeybaster treatment. What support they need from Men can be procured from a safe distance, ie, child support, alimony, Social Security, Affirmative Action, Sexual Harrassment, and so on. Lance is right to point out, back in the day a Woman had to accept a Man’s foiables because he also offered some good incentives; today, she can get all the goodies, and none of the guilt.

    So, from where I sit, we have two options: the Taliban route, or the route I’m suggesting, where we basically accept the new dispensation of time, and adapt accordingly. Its really that simple, guys.

    O

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  397. @pa:

    I’m guardedly optimistic on this because I don’t think the elite is losing control of civilization. To the contrary, they are firmly in control, and are unlikely to lose it anytime soon.

    what makes you think the elites will suddenly start to look with favor upon the nuclear family? i would argue that our elites are largely composed of progressives and feminists, and they have a vested interest against the nuclear family and decentralized political control. there’s been a constant strain of anti-family ideas running through the progressive agenda; going back to rousseau, through marxism, and right up to the contemporary welfare state.

    the progressive personal narrative is usually told as escape from oppressive families and small towns to college campuses and big cities. and politically, it behooves those in charge to have a large, listless underclass with no independent means of support. middle-class voters with families tend to have a healthy distrust of government. look at the current healthcare debate. most americans want reform, but not the public system that democrats want.

    i would argue that the real hope is that these elites will continue to grow so out of touch with most americans that they become exposed for what they really are. it’s what happened in the ’70s. let’s hope it happens again real soon.

    Like


  398. @o:

    i think we are mostly in agreement. women, and people in general, have gotten more freedom, while simultaneously shedding notions of individual responsibility.

    a middle or upper class woman can have kids then divorce her husband and collect alimony and child support. and lower class women can have kids and then live off of government support. either way the beta males, and children, are ending up with all the liabilities of a family and none of the benefits.

    my argument is simple: it’s almost impossible to roll back freedoms, but you can bring back responsibility. our fiscal situation alone may do a lot of the work for us. it’s likely that americans will never accept european tax rates, so politicians are going to have to start making difficult choices real soon.

    the key is to start educating those men who still revert to knee-jerk chivalry. that doesn’t mean turning american betas into the taliban; simply opening their eyes so they start calling women to task. and in my experience, women respond quite favorably to a man standing up for himself.

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  399. Lance,
    What you’re talking about is already happening, in fact Whiskey coins it “soft misogyny”, where guys will let even pregnant Women stand on buses and subways w/o offering her a seat and so on. What I’m talking about is broad based institutional change back in the other direction, and in order to do that you need the threat of force. There is simply no other way, and here I can see, while still not liking it, where Arpagus is coming from when he talks about rape being used as a kind of political weapon. The truth is, that its always been used in such a fashion, at least that was one use for it.

    O

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  400. Obsidian,

    India has always had a middle class. This myth of it being comprised of only very wealthy or very poor people is again a non-informed, western-centric view. There have always been various levels of wealth and poverty in India, but the standard of living is so different from here, that what you would consider “middle class” is rarely found in India.

    Being able to choose ones spouse from a certain number of proposals is not new in India either. There have always been women and men who could choose amongst the 4 or 5 (or more) prospects that have been presented to them. That is what “arranged marriage” means. Forced marriage is something else (where there is no choice) and yes, that takes place too.

    There is no such thing as a “feminist movement” in India yet (as we know it in the West).

    Yes, India has its womens rights activists that are getting some long needed laws in place. But this is NOTHING compared to what we have had in the West.

    If poor little Raju can’t handle that now he can’t demand dowry and has to treat his wife like a human instead of a slave, well, woe be to him.

    I also know several non-Indians who have married Indians and at least half have ended in divorce, which has brought a lot of stigmatized shame onto the Indian partner and their family and they will have a hard time finding a new Indian spouse because Indians do not at all trust divorcees.

    Thanks for the tips to the websites but as someone who has lived in India since the age of 12, as well as someone who has Indians in her family, I don’t think I need to get my info from the net, AND I’m certainly not interested in a Desi PUAs pov.

    Like


  401. I’m not an expert on India. I only spent a couple of years there as a young child. But I think WhiteGirl is right, based on my early experiences of the place and on what I’ve learned since in reading about it and from Indian friends.

    I don’t doubt that some traditions are loosening. I’ve even heard that caste, in the cities among the techno-elites, is losing its importance. But Indian parents still chaperon their unmarried daughters, according to contemporary accounts by both foreigners and Indians, and unmarried women seldom live alone without some kind of familial supervision.

    India isn’t really like anywhere else. Its traditional culture remains strong, and its modern culture remains peculiarly Indian and unwesternized – in spite of the obvious English influence – in a way that most other non-western nations haven’t been able to achieve. Consider that it’s the only country in the world that’s been able to establish its own film industry that is successful enough not to require gov’t subsidy (not now) or Hollywood connections. In short, India has kept its pop culture Indian, which also helps it to maintain “Indian values”, whatever those might be from one region and cultural group to the next.

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  402. Well, White Girl, how very…White…and Girlish, of you.

    Thanks for your qualifying yourself. I think.

    O

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  403. Clio,
    I too know quite a bit about India, and perhaps more pertinent to the current discussion, younger Indian Women expats, who, like their American native sisters, want the best of both worlds w/o any of the responsibilities-hence my mention of Lovely Sexy Beauty’s blog and in particular her Use & Throw post. There is a kind of entitlement among Indian Women that rivals if not outpaces anything coming from a JAP or for that matter a BAP here in America. And Indian guys are seriously behind the Game Eightball in dealing with it.

    O

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  404. I agree with you. What motivates men is not just sex but also intimacy and a shot at family formation.

    Except that it’s really just a transfer of resources of hardworking men to women and children in exchange for nothing. And intimacy is a bunk concept created so people can justify their decision to date ugly women.

    Like


  405. And you base your “conclusion” on what evidence (since we all know you have not one scintilla of actual experience in these matters), Dave Alex? Please explain?

    O

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  406. Obsidian–

    I got a little lazy, and also I think there isn’t that much point in a very detailed report. I got lucky but a relationship isn’t happening and I need to meet more women. It was directly thanks to you that I am not so insanely frustrated anymore and for that I am grateful. It would not have happened if you had not told me to go out and do what I did.

    Lance:

    so, men should be free to try and force women to have sex against their will so long as they’re not clubbing them over the head and dragging them into an alley?

    It isn’t rape by any reasonable definition unless the woman is actually forced to have sex. A woman is not forced to have sex if she could have prevented it but could not be bothered to even try, and currently not even say no if she is drunk. There has to be a relationship of cause and effect between the violence and sex. The only way to establish this causality is if the woman resists to the best of her ability, or would otherwise likely be killed or severely injured. Without this requirement, rape is reduced to the trivial act of sex with a woman who is not in the mood. If sex is not a big enough deal to her to bother to resist, then there is no serious crime and certainly no rape. It is shocking that so many here seem to accept the “no means no” definition. Lack of consent is necessary but by no means sufficient for rape. The comments here show how far the feminists have succeeded. Men who are supposedly aware of men’s issues have internalized feminist rape reform to the extent that they are debating the nuances of the new defintion rather than rejecting the absurd misandristic reforms.

    your argument seems to imply that the best way to combat the excesses of radical feminism is by resorting to our own excesses. i respectfully disagree with such thinking. how about a definition of rape that both forces women to think about their behavior before the fact and forces men to rely on more than their physical stature as a means of seduction?

    I have advocated our own excesses elsewhere, but my definition of rape is not excessive. It is the traditional common-law definition. Just turn back feminist rape reform. Rape is carnal knowledge of a woman not one’s wife by force and without consent. Rape used to be a serious crime, not a means to tell men how to behave ethically. You can promote ethical behavior in other ways, and you hurt real rape victims and help real rapists by trivializing the crime. I you have a problem with people pinching you, you don’t change the definition of murder to include pinching. What the feminists are doing with rape is just as absurd.

    I do advocate fighting feminism by equally extreme measures, but that is not the point I am making here. If you think the traditional definition of rape is some kind of extreme misogyny, then that just goes to show how much feminist bullshit you have internalized.

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  407. Pupu finds that Bollywood movies are like Grimm Brothers stories of hansom princes and poor innocent maids, performed with dancing, singing, provocative body movements…but no kiss so neither Snow White or Sleeping Beauty would ever wake up!

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  408. Aliasclio, you are exactly right. It will be a loooooong time, if ever, that India goes completely the way of the West.

    Because of its very rich spiritual background and traditions (thousands of years old) that it has managed to keep in tact and is PROUD of, you won’t see India changing like other countries have. And the change that does take place, is very Desi-fied.

    Despite the glitz of Bombay (Mumbai), its families follow all the old traditions. SATC style women are few and far between, if they exist at all. If they exist, they will exist in their own Indianized version, like a retired Bollywood actress who has never married but keeps lovers (whom she is never seen with in public), like that.

    Also Obsidian, I checked out that sexylovelybeauty blog and there is nothing on there to indicate that woman is an Indian other than a few Bollywood photos. In fact, she is on their reviewing (in a positive light) the books FASCINATING WOMANHOOOD and FASCINATING GIRL. Two books that traditional women in India don’t HAVE to read coz that type of stuff is ingrained in them from the time they are fetuses in the womb!

    My hunch is that this is possibly a diasporic Desi (Indian) man living in the West who has become frustrated with feminism and is posing as a woman on the internet promoting these silly books. Sound crazy? Its been known to happen. Desi dudes are famous for pretending to be females on the net. Call me “Priya”. LOL.

    Otherwise its just some very westernized Desi girl who is trying to appear more feminine in a bid to woo non-Indian guys and be popular in high school or college or something.

    Obsidian and other men here, I have a question for you;

    You seem to want to go back to the old ways of women being brought up to focus on marriage and family rather than career, being financially dependent on the husband, a good housewife who is faithful to her spouse and attentive to her children, etc.

    Fair enough.

    But are you willing to make the trade?

    The trade is, because of the “feminist movment” and the “sexual revolution”, as well as birth control, women are available for you to meet in clubs and in the public sphere. These meetings can often turn into one-night stands for your or even short term relationships. Are you willing to give up having so many possibilities open to you in exchange for women going back to traditional ways where they marry younger and are hence, not out and about as single women on birth control in the public sphere?

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  409. on July 7, 2009 at 1:23 pm Gunslingergregi

    ”””””””””””””’Men DO NOT LEAVE HOME EVER. Most Indian men are expected to live with their parents forever. The bride is brought to live with her in-laws. Family is EVERYTHING in that culture.

    Can that be smothering at times? Yes.

    I’m not saying its all good. But its one reason why they are so successful and industrious. Stable family backgrounds with very little drama and no divorce. ”””””””””””

    That is actually the sad part about one world order that is naturally going to be lost as it becomes cool to move places for ‘career’ so there are 18 kids in the family but they are all over the world not next door.

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  410. @Pupu:

    I don’t think kissing is allowed in Bollywood movies.

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  411. Mandy! XD

    As long as kissing is not allowed, actresses will have to move ever more provocatively and sexually; and nobody can wake up!

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  412. Many Bollywood films now have some sort of kissing, like short kisses on the neck and sometimes even mouth to mouth dry kisses.

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  413. maurice: I’m sure any angry men I may have been thinking about will keep themselves under control and allow justice to take its course.

    Which, er, involves no beheadings!

    LoL 😉

    Like


  414. “So, from where I sit, we have two options: the Taliban route, or the route I’m suggesting, where we basically accept the new dispensation of time, and adapt accordingly. Its really that simple, guys.”

    @Obsidian —

    There is a third route — sit on the sidelines smoking a cigar while you watch the ship of western civilization careen over niagara falls. I expect a good number of men will take this route, in various ways, in the decades ahead by simply withdrawing and opting out. That process of withdrawal will not be halted by pointing them at hookers.

    I agree that the Taliban solution is not going to happen — but unless the society finds a way to harness the investment of men in themselves and the future of society, the outcome will be that society is overrun by a civilization that has not destroyed the core institution of civilization: monogamous marriage.

    It may be that PA is correct that the elites will switch course before that happens. But the only way they could do that would be to reinstitute monogamy, which would require force and therefore seems unlikely. Much more likely is a gradual decline and then either a takeover by another civilization with strong marriage institutions, or the replacement of this one with another successor civilization “in place” that is no longer “western civilization” as we know it, but a successor that features a strong marriage institution.

    Freeing up prostitution is not going to save western civilization.

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  415. Alas! So someone will wake up, partially, at least.

    White Girl, Pupu finds your (and Clio’s) writing on Indian a great read. Thank you for sharing it.

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  416. White Girl,
    You have no idea what my motivations or views of Feminism is one way or another, and at any event are entirely irrelevant to the matters at hand. My point was in discussing the Indian expat community here in the USA, particularly its female contingent. The LSB blog speaks to this, and again, I suggest you kindly read the blog entry Use & Throw, also talk to Tood who’s both an Indian and a regular on this blog. Not a visitor to the country. Not someone who’s related by marriage to Indians. Someone who was born there and raised there.

    I could joust back and forth with you on what is and isn’t India, or its pluses and minuses but quite frankly that was never my bag, its yours. Congrats for going where few Whiter People have gone before in exploring the world outside your doors.

    O

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  417. Mandy mentioned Yeats so…

    Never give all the heart, for love
    Will hardly seem worth thinking of
    To passionate women if it seem
    Certain, and they never dream
    That it fades out from kiss to kiss;
    For everything that’s lovely is
    But a brief, dreamy, kind delight.
    O never give the heart outright,
    For they, for all smooth lips can say,
    Have given their hearts up to the play.
    And who could play it well enough
    If deaf and dumb and blind with love?
    He that made this knows all the cost,
    For he gave all his heart and lost.

    In other words, learn game.

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  418. “The trade is, because of the “feminist movment” and the “sexual revolution”, as well as birth control, women are available for you to meet in clubs and in the public sphere. These meetings can often turn into one-night stands for your or even short term relationships. Are you willing to give up having so many possibilities open to you in exchange for women going back to traditional ways where they marry younger and are hence, not out and about as single women on birth control in the public sphere?”

    @whitegirl —

    Ah, but there’s the rub: those “benefits” only inure to a small minority of men: natural alphas and other guys with Game. The vast majority of men lose out in a system that does not feature hard monogamy as the norm.
    Feminism used your precise argument to sell itself to men in the 70s: hey, look at all the sexual oppportunities you’ll have!

    The reality is that men have much less sexual opportunity than women do, and when you make the sex market into a free market, the women who are in the market for casual sex and short term relationships tend to cluster around a small number of men (due to hypergamy, which is even more of a strong factor in female selection when selecting for short term or sex), and most men simply do not get laid at all.

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  419. And you base your “conclusion” on what evidence (since we all know you have not one scintilla of actual experience in these matters), Dave Alex? Please explain?

    Primarily because the only guys who throw around this intimacy crap are guys who are fucking ugly girls in long-term relationships. Once my friend dumped his ugly LTR and started banging better looking women, he stopped using that word. Secondly, other than the largest piece of meat, I kinda fail to see what my dad got out of taking care of my brothers and I for nearly 28 years. If you want beta males to take care of families, as society we’ll simply have to pay them cash for doing so.

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  420. @nova- well, i think those passive observers will end up going over the falls, naked and in a barrel. when civilization declines, decays or disspates, everyone is affected. public saftety/infrastructure, courts, health/food/water supply, etc. the sack of rome was only fun for the goths. so that third choice isn’t so appealing either.

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  421. Dave Alex,
    OK, so what makes you so strident in these matters is the real life situation of a friend of yours and your subjective conclusions on the actions of your dad? Yea, you really do need your own church, lol! Talk about a walk on faith.

    Dave, did you ever asked your dad why bhe did what he did for yall? Why he raised you all, why he married your mom, and what he got out of it? Hmm? If you haven’t, you should.

    Smh.

    O

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  422. @cptnapalm:

    Oh man, that poem is so perfect!

    I love Yeats. He has such a universal appeal, although I have a feeling that a lot of his poems would probably appeal to men a little more than women.

    Although…

    “Had I the heavens’ embroidered cloths,
    Enwrought with golden and silver light,
    The blue and the dim and the dark cloths
    Of night and light and the half light,
    I would spread the cloths under your feet:
    But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
    I have spread my dreams under your feet;
    Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.”

    He kept trying to use his poetry to speak to a woman he loved, but she married someone else or something and tormented him.

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  423. Nova, I’m not a dude so I concede that I don’t know how hard it is out there for guys. However, from where I stand, most men and women, in fact ALL men and women in the United States that I know personally – family, friends, acquaintances, etc, have had at least 1 sexual encounter with someone, without being married and without paying for it. Do you know how rare this is in some places?

    Moreover, I’m seeing unattractive and personality-challenged people with boyfriends/girlfriends on a daily basis.

    I think perhaps you’ve been taken in by the illusion that all men should have access to whatever woman they want all the time. That doesn’t happen anywhere.

    For goodness sake, some men are happy to be able to catch and make ONE woman happy for a period of time, what to speak of 4 or 5 or more.

    Westerners in general are just spoiled.

    This is why I think the arranged marriage system is best, but it only works with a culture that supports it — i.e. a family based culture. And NOT a nuclear family based culture but an extended family based culture.

    People in those cultures don’t have to worry about looking hot or having game in order to get a quality spouse who will be faithful to them.

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  424. Dave, did you ever asked your dad why bhe did what he did for yall?

    He told me that he stayed because he loved my brother and I deeply. Sadly, I’ll never get the full explanations to that stuff since he passed away a three weeks ago.

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  425. — the average White guy simply doesn’t have the Eye of the Tiger like dudes in the Congo or Liberia, or Afghanistan and so on.

    Your favorite trope: crypto-swipes at white mens’ mojo.

    The average white guys is exactly like an average guy in Congo or Liberia, or Afghanistan: a normal person who behaves in accordance with his environment.

    There are plenty of white guys with the ‘eye of the tiger,’ and given a change in the circumstances, there could be lots more. And I have a feeling that you won’t necessarily like them all that much.

    — what makes you think the elites will suddenly start to look with favor upon the nuclear family? i would argue that our elites are largely composed of progressives and feminists, and they have a vested interest against the nuclear family and decentralized political control.

    My thoughts on this are incomplete on this topic and in flux, but I really don’t think that it’s the liberals and feminists who are in charge. They are the pawns of those who REALLY run things: the industrial-political-media-NGO complex. The true elites are beyond ideology.

    Right now, social decay makes them money and gives them power. But they may yet decide that it is in their interest to have a nation of self-reliant, law-abiding nuclear families.

    It’s not entirely implausible that today’s “celebrate diversity” will revert back to “one nation under God.”

    Like


  426. Dave Alex,
    I’m very sorry to hear that. I suppose you’ll have to accept that which he said and move on.

    White Girl,
    If you know India as much as you say you do, surely you must know about the near obsession they have about the girl being “fair” and all that.

    O

    Like


  427. @David A.

    I’m sorry to hear about the loss of your dad. 😦 Hugs your way.

    Like


  428. O,

    Just the girl being fair? Indian women also want fair-skinned husbands. That does not mean “white” of course, it means kind of like a tawny, light brown.

    Fair and Lovely has made billions in India over the years and now they’ve come out with a Fair and Handsome cream for the guys.

    I’ve not been to any melanated country where fair skin was not coveted.

    And amongst white folk, we prefer our tans and even risk cancer in the tanning booths to get darker.

    LOL.

    Human beings are never satisfied are they?

    Like


  429. “I think perhaps you’ve been taken in by the illusion that all men should have access to whatever woman they want all the time. That doesn’t happen anywhere.”

    @Whitegirl —

    Yes, but the point is that in a sexual free market, women drift up the male food chain, and concentrate at higher levels, generally speaking, than their male mate value equivalent peers. Because they can. Women have sexual access to men above their peer level in a sexual free market with no rules, because men will shag women below their peer value for variety and simply because it is available. So when you introduce a free market system, many men are left with a much smaller number of available peer level mates, because they have drifted up the chain — because they can.

    Let’s assume we have 2000 men and women, all ranked from 1-2000.

    In a system of monogamy, people would be forced to mate with people around their own mate value level, because women cannot drift up — that is forbidden.

    If you free that up to an open sexual market, woman 1250, say, would, at least in the casual sex market, rather float up to man 500 than she would stick with guys in the 1250 range. And guy 500 will take woman 1250 as an occasional sex partner because she is new, and different, and available, and willing, and he has an open slot on Monday nights anyway.

    Where does this leave man 1250? Well, that depends on how many women around the 1250 level also opt to do what woman 1250 has done. If enough of them do, that means the remaining women in the 1250 level have an extraordinary amount of increased mate value relative to men in the 1250 level, simply because they are available, and are preferable to women below the 1250 level. So a man at the 1250 level needs to engage in a fierce competition with other 1250 level men for the remaining women at that level who have not drifted up the chain, or opt to go for a woman below his own mate value.

    And there you can see the fundamental problem. Men either need to fiercely compete for women of their own level whose value is inflated (making them more expensive) simply because many of their sisters have decamped for higher level men. Or he can resort to a woman below his own mate value. Because of the drift up that happens in a sexual free market, many men at each midlevel and lower rung will be forced to resort downward, while many women of their own level can go upward — something which creates a crap ton of resentment among men. And of course many men won’t resort for going downward, but will simply not mate.

    The issue isn’t that men are all going for the top women. The issue, rather, is that women of the midlevels are opting to go up, out of their own level, because they can. And when they do so, that leaves the men in the level where they left twisting in the wind.

    Like


  430. Arpagus, your position is ridiculous. At the very least, it would mean that women who do not want to have sex for one reason or another (not in the mood, yes; no contraceptives handy; not wanting an intimate relationship with the man) would have to be much more willing to use violent force against men of whom they may be fond, in order to have any ability to say “no” at all?

    I’m not talking about scenarios in which women may later cry “rape”. I’m talking about the kind of situation in which the woman may be out on a date with a man but one with whom she may want to develop a relationship slowly, rather than immediately. He asks for sex, and when she says no firmly, he ignores her and takes the sex. She struggles, protests, and continues to say no throughout the act. However, she likes him, she has no reason to want to hurt him; still, she doesn’t want to have sex, for reasons serious or trivial. She doesn’t charge him with rape, or tell anyone about the incident – but she feels betrayed and decides never to see him again.

    Is he guilty of a crime? Well, according to some people yes; according to you, no. Either way, though, he’s certainly guilty of a serious betrayal of her trust and of common decency. Must the reversal of the follies of feminism result in the abandonment of all good manners?

    The other thing your reasoning leaves out is that men can be so much larger and stronger than women that some of them can immobilize a woman with ease, with one arm, so that her attempts to fight him off are more or less impotent, and may not even be felt as “fighting” by him, because of her relative lack of strength. I’ve had that sort of immobilization happen to me, in play-fighting in my teenage years, where sex wasn’t part of the issue because the boy was my cousin or brother. It’s very effective.

    Most women can’t do much to fight men off effectively or even injure them beyond bites and scratches, though I’m not saying they shouldn’t try. It’s just that the lack of marks on a woman who says she was raped don’t prove anything, because a large, strong man could force her quite easily into sex without leaving any marks on her.

    Like


  431. And amongst white folk, we prefer our tans and even risk cancer in the tanning booths to get darker.

    Is this, like, 1985?

    Deep tans went the way of feathered hair.

    Like


  432. on July 7, 2009 at 2:32 pm Gunslingergregi

    ‘Obsidian,
    rape of the Alley-Oop kind ‘

    I am still laughing wtf kind of rape is that.

    lol

    Like


  433. White Girl,
    I didn’t mean “fair” in terms of lighter skin, although that is highly valued among Indian females; I meant it in terms of pretty or beautiful. Indian upper class families will simply not allow any son of theirs to marry a homely girl, regardless of her family ties and background, qualifications, etc. Trust me, I’ve seen it firsthand, and if White Women think they got it rough here in the USA, Indian Women really got it bad because prospective groom’s families can be downright brutal when it comes to making seriously critical assessments of a potential bride’s comliness.

    Nova,
    Of course Women know the deal, if only instinctively, but they will either feign not to know what your talking about or some will simply say “so? Tough” and move on. So again, what I said earlier are really the only two options left to the likely Big Losers of the New Game: it’ll either the Bullet, or the (Game) Book, to paraphrase one of my all time faves.

    O

    Like


  434. on July 7, 2009 at 2:37 pm Gunslingergregi

    ”””””””””””Lance
    @o:

    the problem with radical feminism is that it allows women to have their cake and eat it too. they can have equality under the law, but still reap the benefit or policies enacted purely for their benefit. they can spend their youth fucking alphas, then settle down with a beta-provider, then leave him with half his shit to pursue more alphas. i could go on and on. but the point is that feminism has given women all sorts of new abilities, but in many cases has absolved them from the responsibilities of their actions. that’s a bad combination.”””””””””””’

    Yea I am leaning towards guys with their leaning of having a soft spot for sad storied people have let woman fuck them up. The west is the disease I am working on the cure.

    Like


  435. on July 7, 2009 at 2:44 pm Gunslingergregi

    ”””””””’ (there’s no Klan equivalent hanging White guys from trees who disagree w/Feminism over there, for example), ”””””””””””””””””’

    Hanging from a tree vs 20 years in prison.

    I’ll take hanging from tree for sure.

    Like


  436. on July 7, 2009 at 2:51 pm Gunslingergregi

    ””””””””””I also know several non-Indians who have married Indians and at least half have ended in divorce, which has brought a lot of stigmatized shame onto the Indian partner and their family and they will have a hard time finding a new Indian spouse because Indians do not at all trust divorcees.”””””””””

    Yea that is the point if no man would get with a woman with kid period in us things will change.

    Like


  437. PA,

    if deep tans went out in ’85, how come there are tanning booths on every other block on the major roads here and bronzers are piled high on the shelves of every drugstore and Wal-mart? What about all these “glow” products that are a huge hit now? I guess you’re a man and not privy to all the products women are consuming.

    O,

    “fair” in India means light-skinned. It is one of the requirements for most brides you will read in the Indian newspaper matrimonials. Fairness, or “light-skin” is equated with beauty in India to the point that a light-skinned woman or man with plain or even unattractive features is preferrable to a dark-skinned woman or man with beautiful features. In India, if you are light-skinned, you are considered beautiful.

    Yes, it can be hard for some on the Indian arranged marriage meat market if they are not good looking. But this system guarantees EVERYONE a spouse and the families are so invested in getting their kids married off that it is very rare that someone would remain single their whole life.

    But consider this; if a family is putting a premium on the looks of a prospective daugter in law – their son has to either be really good looking himself OR have something else unique to offer like more money or higher status than other sons/families can offer.

    In India its not two people getting married but two families. More than just looks are taken into consideration. Caste, religion, language, local culture, educational background, socio-economic status, ALL of this is considered. Looks are only a deciding factor when all else is in place.

    Novaseeker,

    Wow. You’ve broken this down into a science. I truly feel sorry for people who do not have the aid of family and culture to help them find a life partner. It really must be a jungle out there!

    Like


  438. aliasclio:

    Is he guilty of a crime? Well, according to some people yes; according to you, no. Either way, though, he’s certainly guilty of a serious betrayal of her trust and of common decency. Must the reversal of the follies of feminism result in the abandonment of all good manners?

    Certainly not guilty of rape or any crime. Decency is another matter. Do you think men had no decency before feminists expanded the definition of rape so absurdly? Did women have no ability to avoid sex without fighting? Being against feminism does not mean being against decency. Speaking for myself, feminist rape reform is counterproductive because hate breeds hate. When it no longer matters whether I actually rape women, and they can get me convicted anyway simply because they regret having sex, why should I care if I rape them? Women no longer respect us, so there is no reason for us to respect them. Women don’t deserve any decency in a feminist environment. In order for words like “trust” and “decency” to have any meaning, one must have a choice, not merely a threat of a rape conviction if you are not “decent.” That is not a way to make friends or inspire any kind of decent behavior.

    The other thing your reasoning leaves out is that men can be so much larger and stronger than women that some of them can immobilize a woman with ease, with one arm, so that her attempts to fight him off are more or less impotent, and may not even be felt as “fighting” by him, because of her relative lack of strength.

    She must still try. I did not say anything about leaving marks (but then there must be other corroborating evidence, of course). If he truly overwhelms her, then yes, it was rape. But he must really conquer her by force or at least threat of serious violence. Anything else is not rape. Do you want rape to be a serious crime or just enforced common decency? If you mean the latter, then we won’t take rape seriously either.

    Like


  439. on July 7, 2009 at 2:58 pm Gunslingergregi

    ””””””””My hunch is that this is possibly a diasporic Desi (Indian) man living in the West who has become frustrated with feminism and is posing as a woman on the internet promoting these silly books. Sound crazy? Its been known to happen. Desi dudes are famous for pretending to be females on the net. Call me “Priya”. LOL.””””””””

    Oh shit your saying a woman who could be my true love might be a man. Well I guess it would be time to go bi then wouldn’t it. he he he

    Fucker still gonna get it.

    Like


  440. White Girl,
    Yes, I know about all that you said. And still the point remains: a homely looking girl won’t be able to get married off. There are more spinsters in India and the diaspora than we’re willing to admit. Oh, see if you can find an article called Sex and the Sari, if I recall. Its about an Indian Woman expat living in Fort Greene in NYC and how she lived her life in post feminist America. Very interesting read and goes to my earlier points.

    O

    Like


  441. on July 7, 2009 at 3:01 pm Gunslingergregi

    ””””’Bhetti
    maurice: I’m sure any angry men I may have been thinking about will keep themselves under control and allow justice to take its course.

    Which, er, involves no beheadings!

    LoL ”””””””””’

    wtf beheadings and hanging are two of the best cleanest ways to go. Choking don’t hurt so bad you just pass out.

    Like


  442. White Girl:

    I truly feel sorry for people who do not have the aid of family and culture to help them find a life partner. It really must be a jungle out there!

    That is exactly how it feels. A jungle. I would take an arranged marriage any day over the current system.

    Like


  443. on July 7, 2009 at 3:14 pm Gunslingergregi

    Captains log:

    Day 21 with no sex, no cuddling, no kissing, no companionship, no womanlyness around me.

    Thinking of killing every panda who wouldn’t fuck to save its species.

    Although in there defense have you seen female pandas they look and act just like the male pandas.

    Maybe something to think about.

    Like


  444. @Arpagus:

    awww, how have you been doing with the ladies?

    @gunslinger:

    Pandas sneeze. Even baby pandas. It’s the cutest thing ever.

    Just thought I’d share.

    Like


  445. on July 7, 2009 at 3:29 pm Gunslingergregi

    lol mandy even at the end it is still for the children but yea that probably would be cute lol

    Like


  446. Obsidian, I have more experience with Indians in India than the diaspora. In India, the arranged marriage system practically guarantees everyone a spouse.

    Indians are not as body obsessed as we are in the USA. Yes, everyone wants at least a moderately good looking spouse, but one of the benefits of not having a dating culture is that you never get “spoiled” and you are not constantly thinking “i could’ve gotten better”.

    Most Indians, men and women, are not gorgeous. There are ugly people there, as well as moderately good looking folk, and yes, there is a minority of extremely gorgeous people there as well. And guess what? They are all married!

    You just don’t find single people over the age of 30 unless it is for very specific reasons, religion being one of them, and there may be a few others.

    By and large, the arranged marriage system means everyone gets a spouse, few exceptions.

    Like


  447. on July 7, 2009 at 3:32 pm Gunslingergregi

    I mean chooking is a wierd experience but once your windpipe is completely close off it is not really painfull actually.

    Like


  448. My ass this “white girl” is actually white. WTF is wrong with you when your posting title implies you are of a different race than what you are. I mean, you could have argued for “caucasian girl”, but white girl? Bitch, please.

    Like


  449. on July 7, 2009 at 7:54 pm SmartyJones

    @ Mandy – girl don’t know what you are doing here but you are a babe in the woods and a chicken among the foxes. You don’t need to do anything with anyone that you are not ready for and that’s that. Once you cross a line, any line, you can’t go back. Don’t be in such a rush, it’s unnecessary.

    And some of your friends, I have no idea where this is but it sounds almost like a rural isolated place. Young women here (NYC) are way too fast and grown up. They do not make decisions based on a boy being nice and giving them a flower. They are 17 going on 35, cynical beyond belief.

    @ asparagas – man you need to wake up. Stop deluding yourself about imaginary fights about rape with uber feministas. Every guy knows what rape is and isn’t. You don’t need any force or threat of force to constitute rape. If enough physical coercion is applied, there can be no “evidence” re: physical marks. It’s still rape. Your picture is a nice touch. Man you creep me out and you need to relax go to a beach and just chat up lots of girls. Try not to creep them out. You are way too uptight.

    @ all

    Indian culture is interesting and based on my experience here stateside very introverted. They are pretty open and willing to discuss various aspects of the culture which is complex and historically far older than the infantile US.

    They do bring a lot of the old world here. Some of it though is funny. One employee of mine made it a point to go hit Indian parties he heard about on the web. In NYC there is a large Indian community.

    Well he went in and it became quite a big stir. Guys would discourage the girls from talking to him, in fact guys would try to interfere when he was running game. There was a website and he became something of a hot point. Guys would even call the girls online sluts that would talk to him. They were really pissed that he was talking to these Indian girls.

    Went to one function myself. It was the launch of an Indian-American film. I forget the title. It was a pretty popular flick and did pretty well. Something wedding related.

    Anyway, at the event, I saw the exact same thing. Lots of cold stares from the guys. (Harmless in that they can’t back it up if you are pretty strong looking guy and they know it.) Pretty much lots of social disapproval of interaction. Girls giving you looks but also fearful and quickly turning away when you approach to say hello. I was less offended than curious about the dynamic.

    As for the other guy, he managed to snag some of the real hotties. And I mean hot. Although I don’t find a lot of Indian women attractive, there are some that are just smoldering. This guy came close to closing on one girl but I forget how it got interrupted.

    Anyway, it became a real flash point on this website. Guys attacking the girls, the guys attacking him (the white dude) and the girls fighting with the guys (about even chatting with the guy).

    It seemed kind of like high school to me but these were adults all in their 20s and most of them “Americanized.”

    On a rare occasion I see an Indian girl who is of interest but it’s no big deal to me. Besides we know that women are more controlled by their culture.

    I love really good Indian food. Best I had was in London. Blows away the NYC places.

    And I know Indian guys here who go home. They actually go home to get married. It’s all set up by their families. But they do some thinking, it’s not all random.

    Have to say it does seem to work out even though it strikes me as odd.

    Like


  450. Every guy knows what rape is and isn’t. You don’t need any force or threat of force to constitute rape.

    Really? Why do Thornhill & Palmer in _A Natural history of Rape_, p. 150, define it thusly: “we have used the word ‘rape’ to refer to human copulation resisted by the victim to the best of her ability unless such resistance would probably result in death or serious injury to her or in death or injury to others she commonly protects”? Could it have anything to do with the hatred the absurd feminist definition breeds, as is the message in the book? Their book is dedicated “For the women and the girls in our lives.” If evolutionary biologists don’t look after women, who will, eh? Yours and the feminists’ definition is gonna really hurt women some day when us losers man up and take revenge.

    Like


  451. Gunslingergregi

    Thinking of killing every panda who wouldn’t fuck to save its species.

    Fight Club 3:16

    Like


  452. on July 7, 2009 at 8:49 pm SmartyJones

    Asparagas,

    I feel bad for you. You think that when you “losers man up and take revenge” your rape attitude will make them rue the day.

    You quote a book at me that I could care less. First, you lump yourself with others as a loser. You need to rewire your thinking. As in completely.

    A good method is to just stop all negative thoughts. It actually will take some effort until it doesn’t. Some quiet meditation will also be good. When the negative thoughts churn you just let them go.

    You have programmed yourself or were programmed by others and experience. It’s crippling you. The attitude about rape is a direct result of this.

    No guy needs a book about rape to tell him what is rape. When a girl says no but is arching her back, that’s the only real answer he needs.

    BTW, Roy Masters offers a great meditation exercise and this will help just about anyone. Need to get back on that track myself.

    No guy wants to be this angry man. Take responsibility to work on letting that go and letting they happy self get in. You’ll do a lot better with the Bettys too. Women are 10x better at nonverbal communication than men. And they can pick up a bad vibe quite readily in most cases.

    You are communicating that here. I’m able to pick it up and I think you are doing the same with them. And it’s making you really angry.

    So many women are children anyway. As Roissy has shown in many instances their wiring is all contradictory. But in order to master a child, you have to be a master of your universe. When they see that, they surrender to it.

    Break the grim cycle before it’s too late.

    Like


  453. If anyone wants to discount what a shady rape accusation can do to a guy just read this……

    http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=4300383

    Like


  454. SmartyJones,

    You think you are protecting women by giving them totalitarian power and abandoning any concept of justice. You are not. You are too stupid to recognize this, sure, which is all the better. There are unintended consequences associated with feminism that won’t be pleasant. Your are completely disregarding what even a few beta men can do if we band together. It is not about me personally, but someone with my mindset will rape any woman in sight after slitting your throat. All it takes is a little bit of cooperation. We already have nothing to lose; we are rapists anyway, remember and will be locked up just for being men. You and your fellow feminists should take heed. Read the rape books and don’t be so obtuse.

    Like


  455. on July 7, 2009 at 9:27 pm Gunslingergregi

    Well in a few years it became its own bible really says something don’t it.

    Like


  456. “What Is And Isn’t Rape”

    don’t tell arpy Led Zeppelin wrote that

    Like


  457. @SmartyJones:

    “@ Mandy – girl don’t know what you are doing here but you are a babe in the woods and a chicken among the foxes. You don’t need to do anything with anyone that you are not ready for and that’s that. Once you cross a line, any line, you can’t go back. Don’t be in such a rush, it’s unnecessary. ”
    I’m not in a rush to get anywhere. I’ll get there eventually, and I want it to be when I decide to get there, not when everyone decides for me.

    “And some of your friends, I have no idea where this is but it sounds almost like a rural isolated place. Young women here (NYC) are way too fast and grown up. They do not make decisions based on a boy being nice and giving them a flower. They are 17 going on 35, cynical beyond belief.”
    Oh, we live in Miami, but we’re a sheltered group, I would think.

    I can see how some girls here are also 17 going on 35. Not everyone, but a minority. Some people rush to get fake IDs right away and start having boyfriends; the earlier girls start dating, the more jaded they will get. (though that’s not always the case)

    Probably most of the girls you’re interacting with are that way, though not all teens are that way.

    Like


  458. WRT real life Rape Surveys:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8107039.stm

    One in four South African men questioned in a survey said they had raped someone, and nearly half of them admitted more than one attack.

    The study, by the country’s Medical Research Council, also found three out of four who admitted rape had attacked for the first time during their teens.

    It said practices such as gang rape were common because they were considered a form of male bonding.

    The MRC spoke to 1,738 men in KwaZulu-Natal and Eastern Cape provinces.

    The research was conducted in both rural and urban areas and included all racial groups.

    Using an electronic device to keep the results anonymous, the study found that 73% of those who admitted rape said they had carried out their first assault before the age of 20.

    Almost half who said they had carried out a rape admitted they had done so more than once.

    One in 20 men surveyed said they had raped a woman or girl in the last year.

    Here we have a real life picture where 25% of men are rapists. It’s not a pretty picture, most of South Africa is a hell-hole. Please note, South Africa is also polygamous, with the new President I think having over four wives.

    Like


  459. on July 8, 2009 at 5:57 am Gunslingergregi

    Dang whiskey that would be some wild shit if true.

    Like


  460. on July 8, 2009 at 9:14 am SmartyJones

    @ Mandy, that’s all good. Sounds like you may be part of a tight knit community and don’t suffer from ridiculous peer pressure. Excellent.

    Don’t allow any outside pressures to steer your values or make you do anything. Don’t know how you made it this far. I’ve been to Miami. South Beach is about the most superficial place I’ve ever been. But I do love those Cuban women. Lovely.

    Like


  461. on July 8, 2009 at 9:30 am SmartyJones

    South Africa is said to have the highest rape in the world. A place after the bleak soul of asparagas.

    @ asparagus

    “Giving” women “totalitarian power.” Are you completely out to lunch? Seriously, you need a therapist. You discounted what I said to help you and come back with some utter bullshit. This is in your mind. I don’t give a woman anything if she has a bad attitude.

    You don’t know shit about totalitarian power. The Soviets employed totalitarian power. Women just choose the color of a blouse based on their emotional mood that day. And sometimes guys. You live in a very dark dark and imaginary world.

    I’m too stupid? You’re too raving nuts. You think what is going on in your head is real? Normal? You are out to lunch. Read my post again and take action.

    What “beta men can do” if they band together. Come on this is utter nonsense. This is America. Act as an individual and take responsibility for making a better reality. For yourself.

    Don’t even put me in a sentence with feminists. You are projecting your reality which is an utterly self-contained universe of crap. If you or anyone I see act on your rape attitudes, I will be the first one to intervene and teach you a lesson.

    I’ve done it on the NYC subway. No problem doing it again.

    Grow up and take responsibility for fixing yourself. Stop calling other people feminists or stupid because they don’t suffer from your afflictions.

    Like


  462. While it is indeed true that SAFR is one of the leading indices for violent crime, including rape, in the entire world, it is also important to note that, like here, the biggest victims aren’t well-heeled Whites but poor Blacks who must live in close proximity to such vile criminals. And the SAFR police, long known for its ineptness and corruption, does little to help those least connected, meaning, poor Blacks. Hmm. Sounds eerily familiar.

    In SAFR, the poorer sections have now created their own vigilante corps, something that even the new SAFR President Zuma has said isn’t all a bad thing. And which goes to show that, contrary to the views of some Whites, Blacks certainly have no love affair w/vile criminals, and want to see them dealt as much if not much moreso than said Whites themselves.
    Secondly, I think its important to keep in mind that while I too disagree w/Arpagus on the personal level, if one takes the time to hear him out and read his thoughts on his site it is hard to argue against logically.

    O

    Like


  463. on July 8, 2009 at 10:29 am SmartyJones

    @ Thee Obsidian

    A society where policing ignores all its communities particularly poor ones usually finds itself dealing with crime all across the spectrum. The Broken Window Theory originated in New England was applied to New York City when Mayor Giuliani signed off. The transformation was nothing short of spectacular. The psychology of criminals and those who would consider unsocial criminal acts was completely changed. It literally transformed NYC in a short period of time.

    With a third world nation like South Africa, the negative effects of not even responding to poor ghettos is massive violence and lawlessness. In addition to the rape levels, I’m sure the murder rates are not too good either. The “culture” that allows this is going to have some particular unseemly outgrowth in many areas not just one.

    If you wish to make an analogy to American minority communities, I think it’s actually a poor one. Just the sheer scale of magnitude of poor to middle class or wealthy is completely different. There was an article in the UK about white farmers in South Africa not long ago. The violence directed at them is approaching levels similar as to what occurred in Zimbabwe. Straw men put up on the road and used as signals on the defenses of the farmers, then attacks at night where family pets are set afire alive, and senior family members are attacked and stabbed to death in their beds.

    There’s nothing similar here in the US, certainly not in NYC. You have Compton in LA, but the violence is a turf battle created from a culture outside the norms where all gangs work to stymy the police and snitching is frowned upon as anti-social behavior.

    That’s a world apart.

    As for asparagus, I don’t like that vegetable and hold it above the human version appearing here. I not only argue against his defense of rape but the mere idea that it is valid or logical on any acceptable level of decency.

    This is the type of guy who killed birds in the backyard as a kid. Because he could. And he wonders why women are creeped out.

    Rock on Obsidian.

    Like


  464. SmartyJones,
    I’ve mentioned several times here the hit HBO drama The Wire, which takes place and is actually filmed on location, in Baltimore MD, a majority Black city. One of the last seasons shows the city dealing w/massive financial shortfalls, which results in major operations in its police department being cutback to bare minimums. The resulting murder and crime wave is staggering.

    Based on true stories, The Wire captures the American City in ways other dramas simply do not-and as one who has had very good and close friends from Jo’Burg, I can tell you, there ain’t that big a leap from there to BMore.

    I too am a fan of Rudy’s broken window approach, but we have to keep in mind that NYC isn’t a majority Black town, hence they had the funding to pursue such aggressive policing and resulting reduction in crime accross the board. Compare and contrast to BMore, or for that matter Philly, or LA, where its fast becoming majority Hispanic. Or New Orleans, pre-Katrina.

    As for Arpagus, you and I and everyone else here may despise both him and his ideas, but again they are the logical conclusion of a kind of runaway train that is Feminism. Back in the 60s Greer and others spoke of every act of sex btw Men and Women, regardless of context or consent, as an act of rape. Interesting then, that more than three decades later, young Men like Arpagus are making a serious case for rape as a response to what they see as a gross usurping of their rights.

    Andlet’s keep in mind-rape has loong been seen as a political weapon over the course of human history, and, until very recently in said history, was a very real concern for Women. Again in no way am I condoning any of this. Just saying that Arpagus’ arguments ought not be tossed aside out of hand, because we find them or Arpie himself, to be abhorrent. The arguments do make sense. That’s all I’m sayin.

    O

    Like


  465. on July 8, 2009 at 11:09 am SmartyJones

    @ Thee Obsidian

    Recall your fondness for The Wire. Just never caught the show at the right time and wondered why they didn’t run it in HD. Have heard about it’s true to life storylines and may go back and try to take a look but this time from the beginning.

    I’ve lived in Philly back in ancient school history and really don’t know enough about BMore and other cities you highlight. But what I don’t understand is why successful ideas are not replicated. It appears to me that it’s political. Giuliani had to go up against the total NYC liberal establishment. When he came into office the rumblings among the liberals was that NYC was “perhaps not governable” and that a level of anti-social behavior was to be expected.
    Notice how this parallels with the low expectations of education in urban communities today, but I digress.

    From where I’m sitting, the low expectations combined with liberal theology and one party ownership of American inner cities is destroying these communities. Why do they not employ the solutions used so well in NYC? Money can’t be used as the excuse. That’s not the underlying driver to it. It’s just not. The impetus to much of this is a lack of political will to act. Because in many liberal minds, policing itself is an act of oppression on minority communities. This psychology was what existed in NYC too. Once the expectations were changed (and many violent criminals locked up) the message was delivered and it changed a lot of things.

    Another aspect I know of firsthand is that the police went in and were very aggressive in getting the illegal guns off the street. When they operate, they are saving many, many lives in minority communities. When political pressure mounts against them, homicide immediately goes up.

    Is that true?

    Familiar with the radical feminists and the sex is rape nonsense. Who takes that serious today? One can not cite that as an excuse for promoting anti-social behavior on the net, even with the anonymity that permits oddball utterances. So no quarter for it and none for asparagus now. The guy doesn’t have logical arguments. He has a bad attitude, bad mindset and justifies it by starting with his beta rape fantasies and working backwards by justifying it with radical feminists ideas that went out of favor even among the liberal gliterrati in 1980.

    Ask him why he killed the birds in the backyard. He’ll give you a “logical” explanation for that too.

    BTW, one party rule is killing inner cities. From Detroit to Philly and no doubt BMore too. And btw, what did Obama do for the south side Chicago residents who couldn’t get heat in their Tony Rezko slumlord apartments?

    Alright Obsidian, you have a great day. Will catch you again. Rock on man.

    Like


  466. Mandy! xD

    I can see how some girls here are also 17 going on 35

    yuk. what good is a 17 year old girl with 35 year old tits.

    now
    I’ve no
    reason to
    talk to them

    Like


  467. SmartyJones,
    Yes, money played a role in the cities I mentioned but not in NYC for one very important reason: because, simply put, Whites tend to have more money than Blacks, and NYC is seen as a financial and cultural capital of the world in ways that the other cities just are not and cannot be. Therefore, Libs know where the rubber hits the road, and when it comes to their lives or that of their kids being directly or even indirectly threatened by violent street crime, they will get w/the program. Hence why NYC was literally transformed in less than a decade. I was in Brooklyn during the Crack Wars of the latter 80s and remember well the decripit state of 42nd St back then; when I visited again a decade later, it was like I was in a new city. Say what you want about Rudy, but the Man did the damn thing for NYC and trust me, Black folk are thanking God he did, if even under their breath.

    And that’s the big difference here, SJ. The Big Easy, Philly, and definitely BMore, just to name a few largely or majority Black cities, simply don’t have the tax base or White bodies living within city limits, to make the kinds of Rudylike changes real. No one wants to say it openly, but Black lives are in many ways, less than White ones, and this is a view held by both sides of the racial fence. So there’s you lack of political will for ya, just put in Roissyian terms.

    As for Arpagus, again we agree, which is why I reached out to help him and I’m most pleased that he has reported real results. And whih just goes to show that a little bit of Game-just a little bit-can indeed make a big difference in a Man’s life. At the risk of sounding corny, I honestly do believe that Game is Man’s Last Best Hope for finding Love, or at the least getting laid when and for the most part, with whom he wants, left in this world. And its for that reason that regardless of any disagreements I may have w/Roissy, he and other PUAs deserve all our thanks for making it even possible to help guys like Arpie.

    And yea, you owe it to yourself to peep The Wire. Damn good stuff.

    O

    Like


  468. @onasendai-

    wow, that’s pretty horrifying. and in santa barbara of all places. rich SWPL paradise.

    Like


  469. SmartyJones,

    Having the ability to send a man to prison for many years simply because she regrets sex is totalitarian power. I note that you are OK with that. “You don’t need any force or threat of force to constitute rape,” your exact words, is totally true nowadays and I have attended rape trials and seen it with my own eyes which shattered any respect I might have had for women, but a man who agrees with it is the scum of the earth and yes, certainly you are a feminist. I hope it happens to you.

    Meanwhile, real rapists will benefit, and that may actually be good for me. A real rape victim’s accusation is more likely to be buried in the deluge of absurd accusations that are thrown out 95% of the time because even though the law says everything is rape, juries still won’t convict (though Norwegian feminists are working on abolishing the jury to fix that). Those are pretty good odds and it was nothing like that before feminism. There is also no shame in being called a rapist when rape is so commonplace, and even a rape conviction is not credible. When we are all rapists, the normal response to a woman who cries rape is “So what?” Any man who can’t prove the woman consented is a rapist, and that includes all of us except the virgins. Rape is meaningless and trivial. You simply can’t demonize so many men as rapists. I am a rapist and proud of it by the feminist definition and furthermore I advocate real rape as well because of other aspects of feminism.

    Like


  470. This is the type of guy who killed birds in the backyard as a kid. Because he could. And he wonders why women are creeped out.

    This is completely wrong. I did no such thing am completely normal except mate deprivation for most of my life and living in a hostile feminist environment and that is all it takes to become a rapist. You are clinging to the feminist idea that rape is about power or some kind of mental disorder rather than sex. I assure you that is completely wrong and any man can be a rapist just because he is sexually frustrated.

    And we were really just discussing what is an isn’t rape in this thread. If anyone who believes in the traditional definition is the kind of guy who kills birds for fun, then that must apply to most people throughout history. Feminism is the aberration and sadly you have been brainwashed.

    Like


  471. Arpagus,

    What are you like when you haven’t had any fresh pu$$y? I understand, but the rape hysteria–buttressed by real Muslim rapists–is especially damaging to low-status men who DON’T rape, because they have to work through women’s fears of men who have low-status “tells” like bad posture, hurried speech, and bad eye contact–as potential rapists. I have wandered the streets in awe of the modern Euro-American woman’s self-assurance, as I am constantly surrounded by cell-phone yapping Yuppies, oblivious to their surroundings, confident in their belief that natural predators no longer exist. And while I have felt the hot hate of the indignant beta male as well as the cold distance of the sociopath, I have to insist that we WANT them safe, self-assured, and complacent, because that is the ONLY way they are ever going to be receptive to men’s approaches. Day Game in cities like Miami, Berlin, Malmö, NYC or Paris, where Latin and Muslim men make brusque, rude approaches and threaten rape, is overwhelmingly different from relatively civil places like San Diego, Austin, Copenhagen, Barcelona and Vienna. City Day Game is already front-loaded, meaning that Janka reports 15,000 approaches for 1500 numbers and 150 closes in NYC.

    Rapists make things worse for ALL straight men, and frankly here in SM they are subject to diligent police, a well-funded laboratory, and feminist juries–so the local conviction rate is 75%. While I can see a point of honor in not being brushed off as “nobody” by every woman, at least here, your revolution has been anticipated and squashed by the power of the State.

    Like


  472. on July 8, 2009 at 1:56 pm SmartyJones

    Asparagas, you are a foolish and stubborn “loser” as you put it. How many animals did you kill as a child?
    Please tell us.

    A man can put a knife to a woman’s throat and rape her. He doesn’t need to leave any mark of violence in order to do so.

    Get a clue. The world is less simple than that absurd reality in your head.

    A rape trial is a rape trial. If you’ve been to one good for you. You don’t get a medal for it. But you got off on the charge? Lucky you.

    Like


  473. on July 8, 2009 at 1:58 pm SmartyJones

    The rapists loon says: ” I did no such thing am completely normal except mate deprivation for most of my life and living in a hostile feminist environment and that is all it takes to become a rapist.”

    Uh no, to be a rapist means you rape a woman.
    Then you are a rapist.

    Like


  474. on July 8, 2009 at 2:00 pm SmartyJones

    Veggie raper says “I advocate real rape as well because of other aspects of feminism.”

    Yes, and don’t forget to blame mommy.

    Like


  475. There be no date rape if there was no dating.

    Get rid of the effect by getting rid of the cause.

    Buddhism 101.

    Like


  476. Arpagus’s photo is not bad. He looks kind of cute and I’m sure there must be some females out there who would be attracted to him. Yet he claims he’s always been mateless and frustrated. So it must be the personality……..

    Like


  477. How many animals did you kill as a child?
    Please tell us.

    None. I am fond of animals and don’t hurt them unduly. You are in denial of male sexual aggression when we are deprived just like any feminist and try to explain it away, thinking you can neuter us rhetorically. It doesn’t work that way. Men will not simply be docile when we don’t get sex. It has nothing to do with some sadistic predilection.

    A man can put a knife to a woman’s throat and rape her. He doesn’t need to leave any mark of violence in order to do so.

    Yes, that would be rape and I have said nothing else. This is classical rape, but needs to be proven of course beyond the woman just saying so. The feminist definition, with not even a threat of violence, that you supported earlier is miles away from this. Are you backpedaling?

    A rape trial is a rape trial. If you’ve been to one good for you. You don’t get a medal for it. But you got off on the charge? Lucky you.

    It was not my own rape trial. Not yet. Thanks to this community that might not happen, though haphazard feminist rape accusations can happen to anyone. You are clearly too selfish to understand the value of activism, so you think I had to be the defendant. Unlike you, I am concerned with men’s rights and that is mostly why I am exploring this issue and writing about it. I am not personally afraid, just pissed off. All the women I have been with have been decent and would do no such thing, but thanks to feminism they do have the option of falsely accusing me of rape with the full support of the state.

    I did get to see how the system works against men and it opened my eyes to where I will never have any sympathy for “rape” victims. Usually it just means the woman had consensual drunken sex which she regrets and now that is all she has to claim and the system takes it seriously and tries its best to imprison the man, inspiring antifeminist hatred in any rational observer.

    Like


  478. White Girl
    There are also those who argue that a husband can rape his wife, should we apply the Buddhist reasoning there too, and get rid of marriages?

    O

    Like


  479. In North America and Western Europe marriage is already obsolete.

    Who gets married besides gay people these days?

    Like


  480. White Girl:

    Yet he claims he’s always been mateless and frustrated. So it must be the personality……..

    Not always mateless, but currently I go two years between every time I have sex, which is bad enough to drive any man insane.

    Like


  481. Some people go much longer than that, and others there whole life. You may be “overly sexualized”, anywhere there are techniques to control that. Otherwise just release through masterbation and the tension goes away.

    Like


  482. The tension does not go away through masturbation. That is an incredibly naive belief. This is mostly about intimacy.

    Like


  483. “when the mate deprivation is THE/A result of feminism”

    I guess there has to be a typo in every one of my posts.

    Like


  484. For a man not being able to have sex is the equivalent of a woman being forced to have sex. They are just as bad (or actually the celibate man is worse off

    You know you’re just begging someone to tell you to put your bum where your mouth is and bend over, to see if in fact getting raped is as bad as not having sex.

    Like


  485. Al, homosexual men can have sex just as easily as women can, so the argument does not apply to them.

    Like


  486. Homosexuals already have equality with women. For straight men, equality means rape.

    Like


  487. on July 8, 2009 at 7:15 pm SmartyJones

    Now the crazy veggie says I’m a feminist. So you have to rape women as a salvo for men’s rights?

    Alrighty then.

    Just because some chicks try to do crazy crap after drunken sex doesn’t make your defense of rape salvageable.

    A noted Santa Barbara college soccer player has been convicted of rape by a woman who blacked out on a beach, lacks recall and had a BAC of .20+. He’s being victimized.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/Story?id=4300383

    But that doesn’t mean advocation of rape is appropriate, even on an internet forum. Because you go through dry spells. Fucking please.

    I’m no feminist but asparagus is a nutjob. And I have to agree with Lady Mourning who is being logical too. And I hate when that happens.

    Like


  488. It’s not a question of “dry spells.” Feminism made men and women equal, and women have never desired their equals. Women are always satisfied with only the best. So the social rise of women has meant a concurrent decline in the sexual fortunes of men.

    Arpagus is simply willing to treat sex as a public good instead of handling it through the optic of bodily autonomy as a private right. The West still has no answer to the impact of one last unlimited, uncontrolled free market, the free market in attraction-based sex, with money-exchange-based sex outlawed for male purchasers only. Scandinavia is in free-fall, with Muslim mass rapists adhering to a somewhat archaic code of “free for all.”

    Like


  489. @ Arpagus

    “For a man not being able to have sex is the equivalent of a woman being forced to have sex.”

    Uh. No. Not true. Not true!

    Sorry. It’s just so, so wrong. Look, I do (or, at least, I did) see what you’re trying to say. I’ve read your blog, and it seems your point is that men are being metaphorically raped by the feminist system. And you’re trying to show an extreme example (i.e. rape) in order that people will understand the gravity of the situation. And I get that. I do.

    But you’re coming across as insane. Sorry, you are. I don’t think you’re actually insane, so this kind of sucks for you. What you need is a new analogy, because the rape thing…while it might work, in your mind, is just making you sound passive-aggressive, creepy, and, well, dangerous.

    “They are just as bad (or actually the celibate man is worse off, because the rape victim still gets to reproduce, just not with the mate of her choice)”

    No. Stop it! Look, on a very basic level, it is true that we are all here to reproduce. But guess what. We’re past that. I’m not saying that it’s still not a very strong basal instinct…but the point of civilization is that we’re past being walking ids.

    SRSLY.

    Like


  490. “The story of prisoner F95488

    Eric Frimpong was a rising soccer star. Now he’s a convicted rapist serving jail time.”

    SmartyJones, thanks for underscoring my point.

    Like


  491. Arpagus, I think you missed my (semi-flippant) meaning. Namely, since you wish to conflate the two perhaps you should experience both. I’m sure one of those Norwegian feminists would be happy to buy a strap on and use her gang of toughs to demonstrate, and then you may let us know whether you consider forced celibacy worse.

    Like


  492. LILGRL, do you have any actual arguments? “Uh. No. Not true. Not true!” is not very compelling. You are probably more qualified to speak of the cost of having sex, as I am about the damage of not having sex. Who is to say what is worse? Only Tiresias would really know. But if I am going to take women complaining about having sex seriously, I expect the same from them about how I feel about not having sex.

    We are past reproduction? This is not supposed to be important to men anymore, while women of course can reproduce at will? How do you justify this? Couldn’t I just as easily say we are past any inequality in sexual opportunity and so rape is OK?

    Like


  493. I remember when I was rather younger and more a romantic than I ever would have admitted, I saw “Man Bites Dog”. There was this truly nihilistic rape scene. The intensity of anger I experienced for the characters, the writer, director and anything associated with the film is hard to describe. My heart boiled with hate.

    Fast forward years and years and there is me now, having more experience with women as they actually are rather than the pedestal they frequently once occupied in my mind. Last year or so I saw another film that did the gruesome rape stuff. I no longer cared.

    Take from that what you will.

    Like


  494. @ Arpagus

    *sigh*

    I’m in the middle of a Google Chrome OS release, but I love you just that much.

    Let me start off by saying that I’m talking about actual rape, not when she wakes up, still drunk, and regrets having sex with him.

    “For a man not being able to have sex is the equivalent of a woman being forced to have sex.”

    On a lesser scale, I guess, this is like saying that someone who gets robbed deserves to get robbed. That the robber not having whatever he/she stole is the same as someone having their possessions snatched away.

    If I’m a robber, and I don’t have something that I want…well, that sucks for me. But it’s not the same as being robbed.

    Also, sex is different for women than it is for men, but we’ll not get into that right now, as I have a deadline.

    “We are past reproduction?”

    Sorry, I meant that we’re past the part where this is the only thing that matters in life, and where we’re all walking around as complete slaves to our basic nature.

    Like


  495. on July 8, 2009 at 8:24 pm SmartyJones

    @ LILGRL – you should have stopped with the veggie being “crazy.” He’ll write and write and try to appear all logical and then he’ll just go and repeat the insanity all over again.

    You’d best take care of your release and not waste time trying to salvage what mommy broke. It’s not happening.

    He thinks my citation of a bad rape conviction is a defense of his rape assertion.

    You made your point. His beliefs are as wacked from his side as the tiresome old feminists argument that all sex is rape.

    Don’t waste your time.

    Like


  496. Side question: Is Chrome going to be a UNIX like system (not just the Linux kernel) or something else?

    Like


  497. @ cptnapalm

    Eh, no, don’t think so. All we really know is that it’ll be primarily a cloud OS, eventually open source, and with the Linux kernel. We know as much as you do — Google isn’t giving away its secrets.

    Like


  498. “Eh, no, don’t think so.”

    Blech. Ah well.

    I do thank you for the info you were able to give.

    Like


  499. Yeah, sorry. I’ll try to infiltrate Google tonight, and find out.

    Like


  500. LILGRL:

    On a lesser scale, I guess, this is like saying that someone who gets robbed deserves to get robbed. That the robber not having whatever he/she stole is the same as someone having their possessions snatched away.

    If I’m a robber, and I don’t have something that I want…well, that sucks for me. But it’s not the same as being robbed.

    I agree with you in a vacuum or a just society. But we are unfortunately living in a feminist society. No one deserves to get robbed, and robbing women is just the same as robbing men. Men having their possessions snatched away in the name of equality is legalized. The same should apply to women, and THE female resource is sex. Sex is why men acquire other resources and we need them for sex and love unlike women. Feminists are saying men deserve to get robbed until we have equality, and while I don’t agree with that it must also apply to women if equality is what we are going to have — rape is equality.

    I don’t mean to interrupt your work. Reply at your leisure. I know this will destroy any pretense to alpha status but your saying you love me that much really made my day.

    Like


  501. SmartyJones:

    He’ll write and write and try to appear all logical and then he’ll just go and repeat the insanity all over again.

    I may be a one-trick pony, but I am not crazy. If you disagree with my logic, then refute it with logic. You or anyone else apparently can’t. Calling me insane is just ad hominem.

    Like


  502. on July 8, 2009 at 9:50 pm SmartyJones

    It’s all been explained before. I’m not running in that loony circle that’s going on in your head.

    No matter how many times it’s explained you’ll just repeat yourself again with the same stupid crap about rape being justified.

    You’re fucking out to lunch. Get some help. But maybe you don’t need it because if you are about 5’6″ 140 pounds most of your would be victims can probably kick your ass.

    Like


  503. Just because LilGrl has been cool (and just a little because I am drunk) I will revise my declaration that foreign whores are twice as good as average American women with regards to the suitability as wives. Now, I do declare ( with the incalculable aide of Seagram`s 7) that foreign whores are twice as good as the average American woman, unless they are of whatever specific ethnic group LilGrl belongs to because those chicks are just awesome.

    Like


  504. @ Arpagus

    “Feminists are saying men deserve to get robbed until we have equality, and while I don’t agree with that it must also apply to women if equality is what we are going to have — rape is equality.”

    Like I said before, I see what you’re trying to say. I understand your underlying concepts here. However, I think it should be noted that rape is a particularly touchy subject — in a feminist society or not — because of the nature of the crime. Robbery, like I said earlier, is an analogy on a much lesser level. With robbery, you are robbed of your material possessions. While this sucks, it’s not quite the same as a physical assault. Rape is also touchy because it can only really be performed in one direction — toward women. Okay, barring, you know, the prison kind.

    But even that — the prison kind — is an incredibly physical and psychological violation of the victim’s body. Basically, it sucks a LOT WORSE than just getting robbed. And because traditional rape is toward women, and, traditionally, female sexuality was protected, it’s a crime on the woman, her husband/boyfriend/lover, and her family. Big deal. While I know things are all a mess these days with regard to “traditional,” there are still enough people that view it as such.

    My point is this: I get what you’re trying to say. However, you’re not ever going to win any friends by essentially saying that rape is okay. I know there are a lot of “if’s” and hypotheticals surrounding what you say, but what people are going to see is that, somewhere in there, you’re saying rape is okay. And that’s not okay. It’s scary, to us women, that you might actually think that. I don’t think you actually think that, I think you’re just trying to make a point…but I don’t think this is the best way to make it. At all. Not only will you be misread, and often, but it’s not…really…the same.

    “I know this will destroy any pretense to alpha status but your saying you love me that much really made my day.”

    Aww ❤

    @ cptnapalm

    "Now, I do declare ( with the incalculable aide of Seagram`s 7) that foreign whores are twice as good as the average American woman, unless they are of whatever specific ethnic group LilGrl belongs to because those chicks are just awesome."

    SWEET.

    Like


  505. on July 10, 2009 at 7:06 pm Love is anthrax

    Study: Promiscuous men more likely to rape

    Men who considered themselves sexually experienced were willing to coerce the woman to a later stage in the scenario than those with less sexual experience. These men also reported that they found resistance from a woman sexually arousing.

    http://www2.le.ac.uk/ebulletin/news/press-releases/2000-2009/2009/06/nparticle.2009-06-23.2976340719

    Like


  506. Roissy, I agree with your definition of rape. Men should not be charged for rape, just for having consensual sex with somebody who drank some alcohol.

    I also agree, that an exception includes those unconscious or very close thereto. But for somebody completely functional (while drunk) should already know her limits.

    Love is Anthrax, I believe the story you linked to is accurate.

    Like


  507. Luckily, any intelligent feminist who reads your blog has learned not to take anything you say too seriously, if at all.

    Like


  508. @suburban sweetheart

    How long have you been reading here? It takes a little reading and hanging around to really get the drift here – trust me. Open mind, open mind.

    Like