Dating Market Value For Women

UPDATE:
I’ve adjusted the scoring and categories a bit because the test was skewed somewhat toward lower scores.  For those who have arguments with my scoring system, understand that it is based on averages.  I’m sure everyone knows a 34 year old woman who is just as hot as the average 22 year old girl, but the exceptions don’t make the rules.

And a note on BMI:
I used the 1959 Met Life height-weight insurance charts as guides as they are the most accurate (before American “grade inflation” made obese the new normal).  A 5’10” 140lb woman would have a BMI of 20.1, which puts her well within the most desirable BMI category.

*****

If you are a woman, this test will measure your dating market value.  The higher the number, the better quality man you can catch.  The lower the number, the more likely you will find yourself surrounded by cats.  Unlike the male version of this test, here I have added a sliding scale to some of the questions because this better reflects the outsized importance that certain factors have on a woman’s total sexual value.

Guys, you may take this quiz for your girlfriends or wives to see if you have settled for tepid sex once a week or if you always get hard looking at her and never forget her birthday.

1.  How old are you?

15 to 16 years old:  +5 points
17 to 20 years old:  +10 points
21 to 25 years old:  +8 points
26 to 29 years old:  +3 point
30 to 33 years old:  0 points
33 to 36 years old:  -1 point
37 to 40 years old:  -5 points
41 to 45 years old:  -8 points
46 to 49 years old:  -10 points
over 49:  you’ve hit the wall.  waysa?

2.  How important is makeup to your appearance?

It slightly enhances my looks:  0 points
I look like a different woman with makeup:  -1 point
I’m a natural beauty.  My morning face looks the same as my evening face:  +1 point

3.  What is your IQ?  (This relates tangentially to your ability to connect emotionally with a man.)

Under 85:  -1 point
85 to 100:  0 points
101 to 120:  +1 point
121 to 145:  0 points
Over 145:  -1 point

*****

The following ten questions deal with the physical attractiveness of your body.

4.  Your breast size is:

Bee stings up to A cup:  -1 point
B cup:  0 points
C cup:  +1 point
D cup, naturally firm:  +2 points
DD cup, firm:  +1 point
E cup and up:  0 points

5.  Your breasts look firm and pert when you wear:

A bra:  0 points
An underwire push-up bra:  -1 point
Nothing:  +1 point

6.  How long are your legs in relation to your height?

Long:  +1 point
Average:  0 points
Short:  -1 point

7.  What is the shape of your ass?

Flat:  -1 point
Round and fleshy:  +1 point
Round, fleshy, and firm:  +2 points
Flat and saggy:  -2 points
Just average:  0 points

8.  How flat is your stomach?

Cutting board flat:  +1 point
Slight pouch:  0 points
Muffin top:  -1 point
Flabby beer gut and fupa:  -10 points

9.  How toned are your upper arms?

Very toned, I can see my triceps:  +1 point
Average, not flabby:  0 points
If I hold my arm out, I can wobble the fat underneath my upper arm:  -1 point

10.  How big are your hands?

Delicate piano fingers, proportionally small:  +1 point
Average size:  0 points
Manhands:  -1 point

11.  Where is there hair on your body?

My head and pubic area only:  +1 point
I have to shave my legs daily and wax my bushy eyebrows:  0 points
I have dark forearm hair and a mustache:  -1 point
Nipples, asscrack, and that giant mole on my back:  -2 points

12.  Get a tape ruler and measure around your waist and your hips.  Divide your waist number by your hip number.  This ratio is:

0.65 to 0.75:  +1 point
0.55 to 0.64:  0 points
under 0.55:  -1 point
0.76 to 0.85:  0 points
0.85 to 0.95:  -1 point
over 0.95:  -2 points

13.  What is your BMI?

(Go here to calculate your BMI.  The scoring of female BMI varies somewhat from that of male BMI because aesthetics, not just general health, have to be taken into consideration.)

under 14.1:  -10 points
14.1 to 15.0:  -5 points
15.1 to 16.5:  0 points
16.6 to 17.4:  +3 points
17.5 to 21.0:  +10 points
21.1 to 23.0:  +3 points
23.1 to 24.5:  0 points
24.6 to 28.0:  -5 points
28.1 to 33.0:  -10 points
over 33.0:  stop taking this quiz.  you get nothing!  you lose!  good day madam!

*****

The next ten questions are the section of the test that measures your facial beauty.  Since so much of a woman’s dating market value resides in the appeal of her face, I have chosen to examine some traits in finer detail.  To illustrate how very subtle changes in facial characteristics can mean the difference between beautiful and ugly, look at these two photos:

girlhot.jpggirlnot.jpg

I do not even have to label these photos because almost all my readers viewing them, men and women, will instinctively know which is the hot girl and which is not.  Remember this the next time someone tells you beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

14.  On a scale of 1 to 10, how pretty are you?

Note:  Do not bother soliciting the opinions of the following people, because they will not give you a truthful answer.

Your family.
Your heterosexual female friends.
Your homosexual male friends.
Your heterosexual male friends who would sleep with you given the chance.

Instead, put your pic up on hotornot and check back in a week.  Otherwise, go with what you’ve overheard through the grapevine by people who weren’t your close friends, or suck it up and try to be as honest with yourself as possible.  Lesbians will also give you an accurate appraisal as long as it is through a third party and not directly to your face.  Use the photos above as guidelines.  Adjust your rating based on how close your facial morphology matches one or the other.

0:  don’t bothering finishing this test.
1 to 2:  -10 points
3 to 4:  -5 points
5:  -1 point
6:  +2 points
7:  +5 points
8 to 9:  +8 points
10:  +12 points

15.  How clear is your skin?

No acne, blemishes, or poorly located moles:  0 points
Some combination of the above:  -1 point
People are always telling you how silky smooth your skin looks:  +1 point

16.  Do you have any noticeable deformities?

Yes, minor:  -1 point
Yes, major:  -10 points
No:  0 points

17.  How full are your lips?

Pencil thin:  -1 point
Average:  0 points
Juicily plump:  +1 point
Weirdly oversized:  0 points

18.  How high is your forehead?

Low:  -1 point
Average:  0 points
High:  +1 point

19.  How long is your jawline from ear to chin?

Long:  -1 point
Average:  0 points
Short:  +1 point

20.  How big is your chin?

Small:  +1 point
Average:  0 points
Large:  -1 point

21.  How big is your nose?

Small:  +1 point
Average:  0 points
Large:  -1 point

22.  In proportion to the size of your face, are your eyes:

Large and saucer-like:  +1 point
Normal-sized:  0 points
Small and beady:  -1 point

23.  Is the distance between your eyes:

Wide:  +1 point
Average:  0 points
Narrow:  -1 point

The bottom line on female facial beauty is that as the lower half of her face becomes smaller and more delicate, making her eyes and cheekbones appear more prominent, the better looking she will be.

*****

The final eleven questions measure your femininity, sexiness, and pleasing personality traits.  This is the closest to “game” that women have at their disposal.  It isn’t much, which is why the scoring is lowest in this section.

24.  You frequently wear sexy lingerie, even when not prepping for a hot date.

Yes:  +1 point
Special occasions only:  0 points
Never.  Ripped and stained comfy granny panties only:  -1 point

25.  When someone gets hurt you are the first to ask if they are OK and to deliver aid if needed.

Almost always:  +1 point
Occasionally:  0 points
Almost never:  -1 point

26.  You are highly competitive and often play co-ed team sports.

Yes, and I will throw an elbow if necessary.  My shelf is filled with trophies:  -1 point
I like to exercise on nice days with one on one sports like tennis:  +1 point
I’m competitive with other girls, but not guys:  0 points

27.  When a guy approaches you in a bar, regardless of your attraction for him, you:

Smile and look at him:  +1 point
Pretend like you don’t notice him coming:  0 points
Frown and tell him you’re talking to your friends before he even gets a chance to say Hi:  -1 point

28.  On a first date the check arrives for dinner and drinks.  You:

Offer to split the check or even pay in full:  +1 point
Smile and thank the guy when he pays for the check:  0 points
Forget to thank him after he pays for your ungrateful ass:  -1 point

29.  You are about to have sex with a guy for the first time.  He undresses and his penis is small.  Do you:

Tell him how great his cock looks and feels?:  +1 point
Say nothing:  0 points
Look surprised and stifle a laugh:  -1 point

30.  You think blowjobs are:

Great!  You give them spontaneously and there’s never any doubt how much you enjoy it:  +1 point
An obligation:  0 points
Gross.  You gave one after your BF proposed and spit it on his shoes:  -1 point

31.  Do you do anal?

Yes, and it makes me come to know how much it pleases my man:  +1 point
Only when I get really drunk:  0 points
Never.  It’s an exit only:  -1 point

32.  The number of sex positions you have tried is:

3 to 10:  0 points
Missionary and doggy style only:  -1 point
I’m a contortionist:  +1 point

33.  How often do you curse?

I think I said damn once:  +1 point
I blurt out fuck and shit a few times a week:  0 points
My mouth is a gutter:  -1 point

34.  You’d best describe your sense of fashion as:

I’m a label whore:  -1 point
I hide my body under baggy tees and ill-fitting jeans:  -1 point
I wear casual clothing that flatters my figure:  0 points
I wear stylish clothing on weeknights and I can handle heels over 3 inches:  +1 point
My flip flops have my foot imprint in them:  -2 points

*****

SCORING

There is a minimum of -83 points and a maximum of 64 points to earn based on the questions asked.  The reason the minimum score goes lower than the maximum score goes high is because there are a few things, such as gross obesity, old age, or a major facial deformity, that seriously negatively impact a woman’s overall rating to the point of market extinction.

The scoring breaks down as follows:

-83:  You are proof that god does not exist, but that satan does.
-82 to -56:  You’re an omega.  If it makes you feel better you will have your choice of male omegas to bang.
-55 to -40:  The majority of men are disgusted by the sight of you.  Your kind will suffer most when our sexbot overlords arrive.  Losers hit on you constantly figuring they have a chance.
-39 to -20:  You were born to cockblock.  But you’ll manage to marry a table scrap.
-19 to -5:  Lesser beta.  The men you want make fun of you out of earshot.  You spend many years learning how to settle for mediocre betas.
-4 to 14:  Classic beta.  Your hot friends always gets hit on first, but if you really tramp it up you can snag a slightly better than average guy to take you home for a single night of commitment.
15 to 29:  Greater beta.  More than a few attractive guys will approach you.  But if your personality is flawed you risk becoming a pump and dump victim.
30 to 43:  You are officially a nascent alpha female.  A lot of quality guys will hit on you and you will be able to pick and choose at your leisure.  But don’t push it.  You’re not quite hot enough to string guys along forever.
44 to 55:  You’re a bona fide hottie.  Nearly every guy who meets you agrees you are a hottie.  So does every girl.  This puts you in the top 1% of worldwide womanhood.  With great power comes great responsibility, so try to limit the number of men you torture with blueballs and LJFB rejections to fewer than 100 in your social circle.  As long as you are not a complete bitch, marriage with a top quality man will come easily to you.
56 to 63:  Guys want you, girls want to be you.  You are just short of perfection, which paradoxically means you will get hit on more than the super alpha females.  You are a player’s greatest challenge, and his greatest reward, because unlike the perfect woman there is still something human about you.  Sex, love, security, commitment, easy living… you have it all.  Only your demons can defeat you.
64:  Super Alpha.  The world is yours.  Life is an endless parade of joy and excitement.  Your power is illimitable… for now.

I hope everyone noticed what was missing from this test:

Your job.
The amount of money you make.
Your accomplishments.
Your social status and number of friends.
Your deep and profound worldview.

Unlike the men who took my Male Dating Market Value test, I do not expect *any* women to be completely honest with themselves taking the Female Dating Market Value test.  The female ego is simply way too fragile to absorb the shock of such a brutal self-assessment.  Therefore, I will be mentally subtracting 10 points from every woman who posts her score here in the comments.





Comments


  1. Where did that penis bit come from?

    Like


  2. 11. Where is there hair on your body?
    My head and pubic area only: +1 point

    If the choice were “my head only” I would have been very upset.

    Like


  3. on October 23, 2007 at 3:11 pm Days of Broken Arrows

    Wait, is this quiz even applicable to men? I thought men had a wide variety of women they were biologically attracted to, where as most women are programmed to like only Alpha type men.

    This scenario is metaphorically played out at society parties, where women wear all sorts of things, yet all the men look identical in tuxes. Has anyone noticed this? Also, you will notice that female sex symbols come in all sorts of stripes, whereas male sex symbols all like like one man.

    Like


  4. Great test, with only a few quibbles. For one, braest size: many guys seriusly prefer small; all else being equal, they’d go for A/B cup over D.

    Q. 31 – irrelevant, unless a guy is into that himself. Could even be a liability.

    And finally, you’re basically right that job/money/status is largely irrelevant, except I wouldn’t say it’s completely out of play. From my days in the Army, I remember that it was universally acknowledged that female officers of lieutenant rank (typically 22-26 years old) got a big time desirablity boost in the eyes of young enlisted guys from the gold or silver bar on her uniform. Could be the “peasant poaching the lord’s manor” effect. For the same reason, Scarlett Johansson is not hot because she’s cute, but because she’s Scarlett Johansson.

    Like


  5. Age is a relative rather than an absolute factor. In other words, the value assigned to a woman’s age depends to some extent on the age of the man.

    For example, you give the highest value to a woman’s age range of 17 to 20. Now, it may be true that a man in his early 20’s would find a woman in that range at her peak of desirability. But what about a 40-year-old man? In most instances he wouldn’t be interested in dating such a young woman, partly because of the Ick Factor and partially because they would have so little in common. Other things being equal, he’d probably find a 30-year-old woman more desirable, yet your test scores her ten points lower.

    Like


  6. no cooking/cleaning enjoyment question?

    Like


  7. okay pops I got 11.

    PA, all guys are, if not active participants, actively fascinated by anal. They’ll throw it out there just to test the waters.

    Like


  8. i love this site.

    Like


  9. This just seems bizarrely low-scoring. It doesn’t take into account the greater sexual/romantic power of women under 35 compared to men. A 30 year old woman who is physically fit, slender, above average in looks (6-7), behaviorally average and average in her level of sexual inhibition would get like 6-8 points, and be a beta. But it seems to me that such a woman would have her choice of a very wide range of men for short term affairs and a quite reasonable selection for comittment. Perhaps I’m just showing my own beta-ness there, but still.

    Like


  10. Couple comments:

    1. Too many points are given for youth. There are MANY hot females in the 30-35 age bracket (in fact, Kelly Hu is 39!) but according to your scale, they would barely make the nascent alpha female bracket.

    2. I think you gave appropriate weight to sexual behavior. Very insightful. Most women don’t realize that their attractiveness increases considerably the more they give the impression that they enjoy sex.

    Like


  11. Naturally there are exceptions, especially in the celebrity area –maybe it needs it’s own scoring area, but it’s such a minute exception it’s probably not worth serious consideration for how it makes the test “wrong.”

    The key thing to remember is Roissy is going by “ability to find and KEEP a man”– not “get pumped and dumped.” A hot 35 year near-cougar can probably snag a 26 year old for a night or a fling, but marriage? Very unlikely.

    The one thing I will agree with is that the age factor is somewhat relative. I don’t think you’ll find many 40 year olds who complain about banging 20 year olds, but a 45 year old is much more likely to find a 30 year old “marriagable” than a 25 year old is going to find a 30 year old marriagable.

    Like


  12. “ability to find and KEEP a man”– not “get pumped and dumped.”

    I think a definite majority of men over aged 30 would be willing to commit to a woman like the one I described in comment 9, if the idiosyncratic personality match, shared interests, etc. (not scored here) was compatible. So I think the test scores too low.

    Like


  13. PA, all guys are, if not active participants, actively fascinated by anal. They’ll throw it out there just to test the waters.

    I would disagree on that, although it could be a generational thing. Men in my age group (40+) seem to regard anal as Not Quite Right. Specifically, we think that a man who likes to do anal with a woman is maybe not too particular when it comes to the “woman” part, and might even like to experience anal from the other side of the equation, so to speak. Younger men seem more accepting of the practice.

    Like


  14. Hmm. I’m too old to take part, but I do have a few comments to make.

    1) Why do women get scored on their sexual willingness, but men not scored for their skill as lovers? Takes two to tango, you know. And, well, not all alpha males are quite as studly in the bedroom as they pretend to be. Nor is that always the result of women’s lack of attractiveness.

    2) Women’s egos may be fragile, but that doesn’t always mean they overestimate themselves. Sometimes they do the opposite, with catastrophic results. Consider the ravishingly beautiful and very feminine Dorothy Stratten, whose story was told in the movei Star 80. Took up with a nasty but ambitious beta (on your terms), and got murdered for her pains. Absent fathers and other bad parenting can do a lot of harm here.

    3) Too much of the caretaking “feminine” quality works against alpha women. They fall in love too much, and drop out of the game because they’ve been hurt, or take up with a beta for self-protection. I’ve seen it happen often. Also, some alpha men really don’t like this trait; it makes them feel smothered.

    4) Neurotic alpha women – and there are some – put alpha men off. They give off “needy” or “demanding” vibes, no matter how pretty they may be.

    5) Extreme shyness/self-effacement will injure the prospects of the prettiest women, often making her a magnet for angry betas (see pt 2 again). This trait is common in women who were not beauties as children, but who became pretty in adolescence or a little later. The trait can often be attributed to hypercritical mothers.

    6) Many women’s looks are completely altered by makeup but are not necessarily ugly. Fashion models in particular belong to this category. And they’re often unconventionally pretty to boot, so that men would not likely notice them without a little professional polishing.

    Like


  15. on October 23, 2007 at 4:42 pm rhymenocerous

    1) The BMI question freaks me out. Anything under 18.5 means someone is underweight and needs to eat more. Also, giving 0 points to someone with a BMI of 16-17 is ridiculous. I’m 5’10” and 135lbs, and my BMI is 19.4 To get a BMI between 16-17, I would have to be 115 pounds! Do you realize what that looks like? If you said “someone with serious anorexia”, you would be right.

    2) Thought you would give more points for enjoyment of blowjobs. I guess guys aren’t as into that as I thought…?

    Like


  16. 15: I think men don’t have a good idea of women’s weight because women aren’t honest about it. There are a lot of extremely hot 130-140 pound women out there, but the cultural cliche is that 110-120 pounds is hot. In reality, a lot of women would be unpleasantly scrawny at that weight.

    Also, all the sexual behavior questions are way, way off. It’s too porn-y and focused on high school stuff like “are you willing to do X”. There are no points given for being really orgasmic and just plain liking sex a whole lot.

    14: there is a lot of life wisdom in this post. Although I would say that a lot of alpha males aren’t good in bed because they just plain don’t have to be to get or keep women.

    Like


  17. e.g. here is 5’10 140

    http://www.cockeyed.com/photos/bodies/510-140.shtml

    OK, gotta stop procrastinating now.

    Like


  18. 9. How toned are your upper arms?
    Very toned, I can see my triceps: +1 point

    That can be a bad thing. I remember how on “Friends” Jennifer Anniston’s and Courtney Cox’s upper arms became unattractively wiry with time, from too little body fat and too much working out.

    Like


  19. About how old are the males who frequent this site? How old is Roissy? B/c this test seems kind of lame, esp. in light of the fact that the VAST majority of men in DC wouldn’t do well on this test. So I’m thinking that a significant portion has to be the 33+ and single crowd. The attitude towards women (sexbots who just lie there? I’m a woman, and even I’d take a well kept hooker over that) has that cynical, jaded, “got passed over” vibe.

    On the other hand, I do have a few friends from college who always date this type, so there’s a v. good-looking market of women for you to shop in.

    And thanks alias clio, for pt. No. 1, b/c most men tend to be a little confused as to how “skilled” they are.

    Like


  20. I’m amazed that Roissy didn’t include a question asking about single-motherhood status.

    Like


  21. One last general point: extreme physical beauty can do women a great deal of harm, if they don’t have common sense and good survivor skills. They can end up attracting a wild crew of user-alphas, wannabe alphas, and general all around dangerous men. This is particularly likely to happen if they are from unsophisticated backgrounds and their beauty takes them out of their natural element, but that isn’t always the reason.

    So: handsomeness rarely hurts men and can often help them; beauty for a woman is a dangerous gift. It makes some men obsessive and in a few cases almost insane.

    Oh, and just so you don’t think I’m being a female chauvinist here: one reason beauty is dangerous is that it can sometimes make other women hate you. And that is really dangerous for a woman. Any really beautiful woman has to work really hard at being or at least pretending to be humble about her looks around her female friends.

    Like


  22. Clio: I agree with your last point about extreme physical beauty. Michel Houellebecq writes a good deal about this in his novels (and many other topics of interest to this blog as well).

    I’ve seen handsomeness hurt men who are shy or beta, particularly when also not too intelligent. They quickly get women’s attention — and men’s too but for different reasons — and when their beta-ness betrays them, they lose a lot more respect in others’ eyes than if they were merely average-looking. It’s a false-advertising backlash.

    Like


  23. While I’m mentioning Michel Houellebecq, I recommend his first two novels. Check out “Whatever” for a quick read and “Elementary Particles” for a deep plunge into the things this blog discusses. It even has a chapter titled “The Omega Male.”

    Like


  24. DA:

    Single motherhood=attractiveness poison.

    Like


  25. “I’ve seen handsomeness hurt men who are shy or beta, particularly when also not too intelligent. They quickly get women’s attention — and men’s too but for different reasons — and when their beta-ness betrays them, they lose a lot more respect in others’ eyes than if they were merely average-looking. It’s a false-advertising backlash.”

    TRUE!! I got goosebumps.

    “Men in my age group (40+) seem to regard anal as Not Quite Right.”

    Heard it. “Not in my age group, religion, culture….” That’s how it starts.

    Like


  26. on October 23, 2007 at 5:54 pm Days of Broken Arrows

    I just realized he left out height. There is some stat that for every inch a woman is above average height, the less likely she is to have children, therefore, the further this must take her from male companionship/commitment. Models notwithstanding.

    Like


  27. wow, the girl I’m currently banging is a 27, just shy of alpha – makes me feel good.
    but seriosly, way too much weight on some questions (10 points – come on) and little on others (1 point). I liked the male version better, seemed more accurate.

    Like


  28. on October 23, 2007 at 6:54 pm hiphopopotomaus

    they call me the hiphopopotomus, my rhymes are bottomless

    Like


  29. Those two photos are not really illustrative. While the one on the left is obviously hotter, the one on the right is (to me anyway) WELL within acceptable and even desirable range for most men. She has beautiful eyes and a pretty smile. Imagine her with long hair and (unless the body below weighs 300 lbs.) she might not find YOU acceptable in a club/bar situation!

    Like


  30. “she might not find YOU acceptable in a club/bar situation!”

    Only in the Mos Eisley bar.

    Like


  31. True about the picture of the girl on the right. She is obviously not as naturally pretty but, groomed and penciled eyebrows and a touch of eyeshadow would raise her probably 2 points. Those brows on the left don’t just grow that way. It is what is making the difference in making the girl on the right look mannish. Remember when Chandler did Joey’s eyebrows?

    Like


  32. Roissy,

    WTF!!! who said you could use pictures of my GF (the one on the right) for your post!

    Oh wait, wich one is the hot one again? Fuck

    Like


  33. Sestamibi, Lisa, the photos are composites and not real people. The images are part of a study conducted on beauty in which it was discovered that there is a sort of convergence to the mean that results in beauty. Fascinating stuff.

    Like


  34. DF–

    Right, I understand that. The issue though is whether one was hot and the other not. Certainly I agree with roissy’s illustration, but the difference between them isn’t that great.

    Perhaps a more contrasting comparison would have been between Madeline Albright and Hilary Duff.

    Like


  35. on October 23, 2007 at 8:52 pm rhymenocerous

    I’m the mother flippin’ Rhymenocerous
    My beats are fly and the birds are on my back
    And I’m horny
    I’m horny
    If you choose to proceed you will indeed concede
    Cos I hit you with my flow
    The Wild Rhino Stampede.
    I’m not just wild, I’m trained,
    Domesticated
    I was raised by a rapper and rhino that dated
    And subsequently procreated

    Like


  36. Interesting questionary:
    regarding age, I think Roissy is right: the most important factor together with weight is definitively age. Most twenty year old girls beat late thirty has beens. Obviously it is a relative problem: a thirty year old woman might be a good catch for a 45 year old man , but terrible for a 25 year old.
    we have a saying here: “there are no ugly 15 year olds”
    Intresting that my age ranges are not that different from Roissy’s: my favourite is 14*-20.
    *minimum legal age in my jurisdiction
    Also, Roissy values sluttiness. For marrriage, virginity, although not required, would be a great plus in my country.
    Virgo in tacto would be a husband’s greatest prize.

    Like


  37. Following some of the others’ comments – here are a couple additions:

    Number of sexual partners you had:
    0 -1 point
    1-2 +2 points
    3-5 +1 point
    4-8 -1 point
    9-20 -4 points
    Over 20 -10 points, you’re all used up

    Education level:
    High school dropout -5 points
    Community College -1 point
    4-yr college graduate +3 points
    Law/Medical/MBA degree 0 points
    PhD -2 points

    Extra points if you graduated from a Midwestern or Southern state university like UTexas or UFlorida.

    Like


  38. Sestamibi, on the contrary. The difference between them is extensive and illustrative of how a slight variance in proportion can alter our perception of beauty entirely.

    Like


  39. Sestamibi, on the contrary. The difference between them is extensive and illustrative of how a slight variance in proportion and triats can alter our perception of beauty entirely.

    Like


  40. WTF. I think I want to kill myself now. Romance isn’t dead after all!

    Like


  41. I think Sestamibi is right: the girl on the right, specially with long hair, would still look pretty good.

    Like


  42. 1) The two pictures are of the same girl. One has groomed eyebrows, makeup to change the proportions of her features and even out her skin, and one has not.

    2) The whole quiz is just a way of saying, indirectly, that only a 20-25 year old, large-breasted woman, is worth more than a “pump and dump.” And that only physical attractiveness, and maybe a submissive personality, will be considered in judging a woman’s status.

    3) A woman’s status is defined here as nothing more than “attractive to a man.” It’s too perfect. I couldn’t make this up. (Which is why I keep coming back. I still half believe Roissy is some performance artist trying to make a point for fourth-wave feminists).

    Like


  43. Results of a survey shows DC as 2nd least attractive population http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071022/od_nm/philadelphia_unattractive1_dc

    Like


  44. 42: ha, I think Dizzy has tagged Roissy pretty well on this one.

    The kind of crudely consumerist assessments in the last two posts, and especially this one, are only one thing that goes on in romance “markets”. I mean it’s definitely a factor, but t’s obvious enough that people pair off for a ton of reasons.

    And as I said above, even on a “consumerist” basis this post is absurdly narrow. It’s basically saying that a reasonably attractive guy who is a decent “catch” would always hold out for some kind of Playboy model / submissive porn / housewife fantasy, and would not be willing to marry your typical reasonably attractive young woman if they had good emotional compatibility and shared interests. That’s silly. The human race wouldn’t have made it if that were true. (Although admittedly pop culture may have unreasonably heightened our expectations).

    Like


  45. #38 DF, well I just don’t think so. Remember that bit about the eye of the beholder?

    Like


  46. dizzy:
    1) The two pictures are of the same girl.

    wrong.
    both women are composites of, respectively, more attractive and less attractive faces. the marked difference in beauty is not due to makeup or lighting but to differences in facial proportions. look closer. you’ll see the unattractive girl has a wider jaw that obscures more of her ears.
    it doesn’t take much to uglify a girl — a millimeter here and there.

    2) The whole quiz is just a way of saying, indirectly, that only a 20-25 year old, large-breasted woman, is worth more than a “pump and dump.”

    the quiz measures dating market value. in the sexual market, yes, a woman’s looks are her biggest (by far) selling point. her job accomplishments may be valuable to her employer, but it means nothing to her ability to attract men for sex and love.
    and that is the most important job she’ll ever have.

    And that only physical attractiveness, and maybe a submissive personality, will be considered in judging a woman’s status.

    you write as if men have a choice in whom they find attractive.
    hint: they don’t.

    3) A woman’s status is defined here as nothing more than “attractive to a man.”

    her sexual status.
    and being attractive to men is the only thing that matters in the arena of dna replication.

    It’s too perfect.

    hey, it’s me!

    I couldn’t make this up.

    you don’t have to. it’s self-evident.

    (Which is why I keep coming back. I still half believe Roissy is some performance artist trying to make a point for fourth-wave feminists).

    they always come back for more.

    Like


  47. I too, am addicted to Roissy :o)

    Roissy: “and that is the most important job she’ll ever have.”

    What would you say is the most important job for a man?

    Like


  48. a man who says a woman’s social status has no impact on her “dating market value” does not have social status himself. socio-economic status is one of the strongest drivers of mate selection.

    Like


  49. About how old are the males who frequent this site? How old is Roissy? B/c this test seems kind of lame, esp. in light of the fact that the VAST majority of men in DC wouldn’t do well on this test. So I’m thinking that a significant portion has to be the 33+ and single crowd. The attitude towards women (sexbots who just lie there? I’m a woman, and even I’d take a well kept hooker over that) has that cynical, jaded, “got passed over” vibe.

    I get the impression that most of this site’s frequent readers fall into the Angry Nerd category. In other words, sex for them means a hot date with Mrs. Palm and her five daughters.

    As for Roissy himself, some estimates put him in his early to middle 30’s, but whether they are based on anything but sheer conjecture, I just don’t know.

    Like


  50. jk:
    What would you say is the most important job for a man?

    lubricating vaginas.

    tracylordofthelies:
    a man who says a woman’s social status has no impact on her “dating market value” does not have social status himself.

    is this a version of “i know you are but what am i”?

    socio-economic status is one of the strongest drivers of mate selection.

    don’t you know it’s different for men?
    men choose women for sex and love based almost entirely on looks, youth and femininity.
    what you are speaking of is the peer group pressure of marrying within the class. but even where assortative mating plays a role in who men choose to marry, it’s still the best looking women they can get within their social context those men are choosing.
    and let’s not forget the mistresses who are often well below the man’s socioeconomic station.
    if you want to know what kinds of women men would choose if they had a truly free choice, just look for the boner. it doesn’t lie.
    and it doesn’t get hard when she whispers sweet nothings in his ear about her law degree, six figure income, or family connections.

    Like


  51. tracylordofthelies lmao

    if you want to know what kinds of women men would choose if they had a truly free choice, just look for the boner. it doesn’t lie.
    and it doesn’t get hard when she whispers sweet nothings in his ear about her law degree, six figure income, or family connections.

    I don’t know about that. I just had to choose between a hot bikini model exotic dancer type that does MDMA and a smart girl. In terms of hotness the bikini model won, but even though I was outside her apartment and she kept trying to convince me to come in I just couldn’t do it.
    She made me take down her number and I just couldn’t make myself call. I swore that if you knocked her on the head you would hear a ringing noise.

    So there are always extremes and exceptions.

    This sort of reminds me of the movie species where the female alien walks around trying to select the best guy. Then in Species II the male alien bangs EVERYTHING in sight.

    Back to the fundamentals!

    Like


  52. if you want to know what kinds of women men would choose if they had a truly free choice, just look for the boner. it doesn’t lie.

    Yet, when I state I want a porn queen, you rag on my preference to desire and hold out for such a woman.

    Like


  53. david, what i ragged on was your absurd insistence that there are very few women hot and slutty enough in real life to compete with the porn goddesses you whack off to. once you linked to those ugly trannies the lie was put to your whole premise.

    what’s really funny is you had your pick of the luscious litter to choose from. there are plenty of hot big-boobed slutty women in porn. yet you chose the dreck as examples of the best porn has to offer.

    this is why i suspect your whole internet persona is a stage act.

    or, hey, you may just get aroused at the sight of man-like lantern-jawed clown-faced trannies. if so, consider yourself one of the very rare exceptions to the rule.

    Like


  54. I am so far in the negative, I lost count. My only redeeming quality appears to be my fast-diminishing IQ….that, and a fantastic rack.

    Like


  55. “My only redeeming quality appears to be my fast-diminishing IQ….that, and a fantastic rack.”

    Link plz.

    Like


  56. Beauty in the eye of the beholder is a myth. I don’t understand why people confuse a preference they may have for blondes or brunettes with actual standards of beauty.

    null, why would you share your stories of your very low sex drive with us and act as if your exception applies to the rest of us? just sayin.

    Like


  57. As a smart guy, all else being equal, a woman is much hotter if she is pretty intelligent. But she has to be physically attractive to begin with. And I don’t deal with drugs either, so esctasy sluts need not apply.

    Like


  58. on October 24, 2007 at 3:24 pm Days of Broken Arrows

    Sorry to pick this list apart again, Roissy, but I just noticed tattoos are not on it. I think when a woman has a tattoo it’s negative in all your categories, even when it’s a “strategically placed tattoo.”

    Like


  59. I second DOBA’s point. Tatoos, fake tits, any piercings other than the ear, are deal breakers.

    Like


  60. Dear God, can we get any pickier? What about if she poops, I think pooping should be a deal breaker because hot chicks don’t poop.

    Like


  61. What about if she poops, I think pooping should be a deal breaker because hot chicks don’t poop.

    Except in Japanese pornography.

    Like


  62. Days of Broken Arrows, in response to your comment in #3, males have a wide variety of women they will SCREW — not that they are attracted to. The difference between men and women is that, at least in western society, women are less willing to venture outside their comfort zones. Men, because of a higher sex drive, will often do this.

    This also manifests itself in dating and relationships. This explains the general tendency for women to “date up”, as Roissy calls it, and for men to “date down”. When I lived in the DC area, I noticed this phenomenon was huge and pervasive there. Actually, seeing a 6-7 girl with an 8-10 guy actually seemed to be the NORM in DC. I think this is so common in DC/MD/VA, though that people there just internalize it and assume this is the normal for human beings everywhere, when it’s not. In fact, just the opposite is true. In most “traditional societies” (which actually amounts to most of the earth), males date “up” and females date “down”.

    Like


  63. VK – it’s not being picky to find tatoos, fake tits, or wierd percings unattractive. Sure, back when I was single maybe I’d have banged a girl with those, esp. if I was drunk (come to think of it, I did once). But those “enhancements” signal sluttiness, and I would not have considered a slutty girl for anything more long-term. Besides, those things were pretty rare among the girls I hung out with, so I wasn’t being all that picky.

    Like


  64. on October 24, 2007 at 4:08 pm rhymenocerous

    Aright aright, now the BMI thing makes a lot more sense. And I think my perception is skewed because I’m tall. I can’t estimate BMIs for short people.

    Like


  65. I thought men had a wide variety of women they were biologically attracted to, where as most women are programmed to like only Alpha type men.

    It’s the other way around: there are a wide variety of ways for a guy to be high-status — comedian, pretty boy, rebel / biker, daredevil, wealthy professional, slick talker / flirt / player, artist / musician, jock / athlete, and on and on. That’s why males show greater variance in almost all traits.

    Some of those will work for females — musician, dancer, good flirt — but mostly it’s about looks, agreeable personality, and some talent or charm and elegance.

    That’s the complaint I have: this is mostly a list of what makes for good short-term relationships or long-term “mistress” relationships, reflecting Roissy’s relationship preferences.

    If you’re talking marriage, then talent, intelligence, and education definitely enter the picture. An alpha tends to want his kids to have a smart and successful mother. They may not be the most important factors, but they’re very much there. By talent, again I mean dancing or singing ability, the kind of charm and grace that requires cultivating for most women, and so on.

    Since so much of the list is weighted towards youth, and since most women aren’t going to marry until their late 20s at the earliest, that means that marriageable qualities are not well represented here. Which qualities “age well,” that is?

    Like


  66. I personaly don’t consider women over 25 marriageable. The reason why so many American marriages end in divorce, is because the woman marries at an age where she is already accostumed to change partners every three years or so when things become boring. Men should date potential wifes when the girls are in their teens and than marry them when they are around 20.

    Like


  67. on October 24, 2007 at 6:14 pm David Alexander

    yet you chose the dreck as examples of the best porn has to offer.

    Yeah, they’re not glossy hot women, but they give off a high sexualized look that a hot woman with a natural look doesn’t give. In retrospect, maybe I have exaggerated about not being aroused by normal women, because I can admit to be aroused by some girls here at work who I’d consider banging, but they have long nails, heavy makeup useage, tattoos large D cups racks, and a large asses. They’re essentially 5 and 6s with those features and revealing clothing, and those markers are a sign of hightened sexuality for me. Yet, I’ll be honest and say that I don’t consider these women, especially the black ones, as long-term partners. Oddly, that “role” is left for the chubby white girls that match.com sends me every three days in an e-mail. The problem is that many of the slutty girls have the physical attraction, but nothing to keep the long-term relationship going. The chubby white girls in contrast have a warm personality that I like, and sometimes, I can find then who get their nails done, and has the D cups and big ass, but no sexualized heavy make up, high heels or slutty clothing. It’s an annoying dilemma, and I don’t want to be some guy who cheats on his g/f to have good sex.

    Men should date potential wifes when the girls are in their teens

    And that will never happen since in the Anglosphere, those people are considered to be children. Even the 30 something women having sex with 16 year old boys are considered “child molesters” here in the States. The traits for marriage that Agnostic discussed in his comment aren’t fully developed at that age and are why Americans delay marriage and do so with more mature partners. Remember, American and anglosphere marriages are “partnerships” for fufillment, not magical breeding factories.

    Like


  68. I should note that men should marry somewhere between 23-33, so when dating their teen brides they would only be 6-12 years older.

    Like


  69. Why was it that in the DC area (when I lived there 1991-2002), as in no other city I’ve ever been in (including LA, SF and all over Europe), I saw more young, attractive white girls with:

    1) Black males;
    2) East Asian males (mostly Korean, presumably);
    3) Even Latino males with stereotypical Central or South American “Indian” looks

    I don’t want to overstate this, though, by implying it was ubiquitous; it was not. The numbers of these mixed-race couples were not really a large percentage of all couples where the woman was white. Still, the percentages of these couples — notably where the young white woman was actually attractive — was vastly and noticeably higher than in every other place I’ve seen or lived in.

    Also, this phenomenon seemed to be applicable for young, white women of all but the very highest socioeconomic groups. In other words, it wasn’t just poor white trash girls, but also solidly middle class girls from Annandale, Fairfax, Silver Spring, Rockville, Springfield, etc.

    I’m far from a racist, but this phenomenon bugged me because I, and many of my friends who were also white, upwardly-mobile professionals like me, were unable to score similarly attractive young, white women in the DC area.

    Like


  70. I saw more young, attractive white girls with: 1) Black males;

    1) Federal government and Affirmative Action in the area accounts for a higher number of middle class black families

    2) Lots of white liberals in this area. Liberal white fathers will not openly object to their daughter’s dating of a black boy, even if it’s killing them inside.

    3) That period (1991-2002) saw a surge of interracial dating. The taboo relaxed during the early 90s. But I’ve seen the popularity of WF/BM drop in recent years. Maybe it’s the sight of legions of unmarried and washed up white women with mulatto children.

    Like


  71. Joe T., in most “traditional” places in the world, men do not “date up”; they buy – as in paid sex – or are bought – as in the dowry system by the prospective bride’s family. Because the women in such societies have little choice about whom they associate with in sex or marriage, their preferences do not enter the picture, and thus the picture itself is a little off.

    Gannon, in the American statistics that I’ve seen, marriages in which the bride is under 21 are the most likely to fail. Can’t find the source in which I found this; it’s likely that in such couples the husband was also very young – only 2-3 years older, so not the same kind of situation as in other nations with young brides. But if late marriage is such a bad thing, why is it that now when late marriage is so common in the US, divorce rates are the lowest they have been since 1970? here’s the source for that:
    http://familylaw.mwortmanlaw.com/2007/05/articles/divorce/us-divorce-rate-lowest-since-1970/

    Like


  72. on October 24, 2007 at 7:43 pm David Alexander

    But I’ve seen the popularity of WF/BM drop in recent years. Maybe it’s the sight of legions of unmarried and washed up white women with mulatto children.

    Oh don’t worry, there are even more unmarried black women with black children too.

    Seriously, these guys are retarded and take everything for granted. While I’d kill to get a white girl to even have any interest in me, these guys who can get white girls fuck it up by getting them pregnant, and then they abandon these women. A white woman who dates a black man should treated like a Queen, and it’s every black man’s duty to stay with her as long as possible and to be the best boyfriend/husband possible. Yes, I don’t like how black men abandon their children with black women, but that’s kinda understandable if you know black women, but there’s no reason to abandon a white woman.

    Like


  73. on October 24, 2007 at 7:45 pm David Alexander

    BTW, yes, I think black men who abandon their children fucking scum who make our race look bad in front of whites.

    Like


  74. Basically, the scoring should reflect what qualities make the French TV journalist Melissa Theuriau so desirable to so many around the world. (She’s on YouTube.)

    Like


  75. David, I am convinced many of the white women who are drawn to black men either are curious about things like penis size and lovemaking ability, or are actually girls who’ve “gone black and can’t go back” because they’ve experienced it and really prefer it.

    This doesn’t necessarily apply to all white women, all white women who’ve been with black males, or even all black males. I am not so much stereotyping here, but simply drawing empirical conclusions from the sociological evidence.

    It strikes me that the whole thing about black penis size and sexual prowess would have to be more or less true no matter what the height and build of the black male, at least in comparison to a white male of similar height/build.

    That’s why it surprises me that you have such trouble attracting ANY white women. One would think that, statistically, you’ll always find at least some desirable white females who either believe the whole thing about penis size and prowess, or who have actually experienced it and prefer it.

    Like


  76. Don’t expect a black dude to stick around. It’s the same reason I have no sympathy for women who marry/date middle easterners and then complain when they get physically abused. Who could have seen that coming?

    Like


  77. PA said

    “3) That period (1991-2002) saw a surge of interracial dating. The taboo relaxed during the early 90s. But I’ve seen the popularity of WF/BM drop in recent years.”

    Definitely. I’ve noticed that this has waned, too, on my trips back to DC.

    Like


  78. What is lovemaking ability? Seriously? Just last for 15 minutes and know a few basic positions. It ain’t rocket science. The girl’s sexual enjoyment stems from how much she is attracted to you in the first place.

    Like


  79. Gannon, in the American statistics that I’ve seen, marriages in which the bride is under 21 are the most likely to fail. Can’t find the source in which I found this; it’s likely that in such couples the husband was also very young – only 2-3 years older.
    That’s exactly my point. Males so young aren’t ready to commit or support a family, but females are.

    Like


  80. Wow, just read the last couple of comments and realized that this comments section took a random racist turn. LOL @ Joe T. for feeling stiffed because he’s a loser and quality women, regardless of race, will always be able to smell it over his Axe Body Spray. PA, you’ve exposed yourself too with that bullshit you tried to throw out to prop up Joe’s limp self-esteem. You guys should just add an extra pair of holes in your KKK sheet sets so you can just go down on each other and spare us the angry white male rants.

    Moving on, why are tattoos and piercings slutty? Maybe this is the type of non-sequiturial thinking that has kept you from scoring with all the white women you’re so angry about losing to superior men of other races.

    Like


  81. on October 24, 2007 at 8:53 pm Days of Broken Arrows

    Joe T said: “…many of the white women who are drawn to black men either are curious about things like penis size and lovemaking ability, or are actually girls who’ve “gone black and can’t go back” because they’ve experienced it and really prefer it.”

    Many of the white girls who date black guys “can’t go back” because many white guys will note date a woman who has been with a black guy.

    The sky-high amount of STDs in the black community coupled with the fact that black males (admit it) are statistically more violent, means you often get damaged goods. I’m not even taking into account the kids that may come out of such couplings.

    Like


  82. Wow, it’s really romantic to think that we’ve watched the same TLC/ public television specials on human mating. What if we were watching them at THE SAME TIME? OMG it’s like fate or something!

    Where is there a question about fate?

    Like


  83. Are they? I seriously doubt it; at least, not in North America. The human body, male or female, isn’t fully out of adolescence until age 21-22. Children born to teen mothers tend to be underweight, too.

    Anyway, you did say in your post that you were talking about men between 23 and 33. I assume that the lower range of that group would have been the age of the husbands of brides under 21. The point is that in the US, early marriages tend to fail, slightly later marriages to succeed. Mid-late 20s for both parties, with women around 2 years younger, seems to be optimum. And larger age differences tend to make for more divorces in this part of the world.

    It’s my understanding, too, that marriages in South America these days are more fragile, thanks to the fact that women there are less willing to tolerate male infidelity than they used to be, and men are not willing to give up the practise.

    Like


  84. alice clio,

    in what “traditional” countries don’t women’s preferences come into play?

    aside from muslim countries i can’t think of one

    Like


  85. mike, yours is the kind of stereotypical faux-macho posturing that typified much of the run-of-the-mill white guys that inhabit the DC area. Always ready to hurl an insult at another male to gain ground in the superficial battle of perceptions.

    I guess that’s why I’m a lawyer and CEO of two growing international, non-law companies who has traveled to Europe for 1-2 weeks every month for the past 15 months, and you’re still scowling and making sarcastic comments on blogs and in Arlington bars packed with losers, or whatever the f*ck you’ve been doing lately.

    Like


  86. And mike, don’t bother to touch my blog, I have a top level account with my hosting company and can implement any kind of firewall I want, as well as trace your IP address. And I can find out who you are, no problem. I am a professional opposition researcher and background investigator who can come up with something from nothing.

    Just sayin’…

    Like


  87. Seriously, these guys are retarded and take everything for granted. While I’d kill to get a white girl to even have any interest in me, these guys who can get white girls fuck it up by getting them pregnant, and then they abandon these women. A white woman who dates a black man should treated like a Queen, and it’s every black man’s duty to stay with her as long as possible and to be the best boyfriend/husband possible. Yes, I don’t like how black men abandon their children with black women, but that’s kinda understandable if you know black women, but there’s no reason to abandon a white woman.

    LOL

    Don’t feed the troll.

    Like


  88. The human body, male or female, isn’t fully out of adolescence until age 21-22.
    Females at around 15 have full adult IQ’s and are physically adults. The most healthy babies are in fact born to women between 16-22. Sorry, but a females prime sexual years are between 15-25, and a men’s between 17-35. Sorry, that’s reality. At 27, a woman’s fertility is already rapidly decreasing.

    Like


  89. And who said tattoos are slutty? I’ve never said that, and don’t think that. I just think that, in my wholly subjective view, 95% of tattoos are aesthetically unattractive, and I’ve rejected otherwise attractive women with tattoos only because of their tattoos.

    Like


  90. on October 24, 2007 at 9:49 pm Days of Broken Arrows

    Joe T,

    I don’t see how what you said was “racist” — it seemed to be observation.

    But I have some theories as to why a rich, successful white male could not score with women. A pet topic!

    Back in the day, women looked at Mr. Average (responsible 9-5 guy) as Mr. Success. Then women became Mr. Average themselves. Therefore they raised the bar on men because the feminine seeks tha masculine. Women who were now earning men’s salaries and drinking like men (or whatever) sought out “hyper-men” — thugs and players. I repeatedly see this in younger women.

    Thus, younger men no longer go to college and cover themselves with tattoos. Prison culture is huge. The Preppie Murderer just got busted again, and of course he had a g/f at his side. America is becoming like the UK, where women rule the roost and men rome in gangs, beating the shit out of each other, drinking, and roughing up females.

    This is called an “unintended consequence.” All would agree women should be paid the same as men for the same work. Yet and unintended consequence of that is women no longer want “men” they want “thugs.”

    This is what you witnessed in DC. I know a gorgeous, nice Jewish nurse who rejects man after man on J-Date because they “don’t do it for her,” but makes it with the maintenence guy. Welcome to the new America.

    Like


  91. Days, brilliant post, I second all that. You are dead on.

    Like


  92. on October 24, 2007 at 9:58 pm Days of Broken Arrows

    I left something out of my rant. One huge reason women don’t want competttive men as partners is because women don’t like the competition.

    All thru modern school (and in media) women are told they are the stars, they’re better than men, men are scum, etc. They are told they have to do it on their own. When they come across a successful guy they should be attracted to, the get intimidated and the defenses go up.

    They are far more comfortable with the slob who sits around and smokes and gets “inked” while they sucrry around looking important in their little media job. This mostly goes for women under 35, but can be applied to those disgusting cougars.

    Want evidence of the new generation of women?

    Back in the old days, Marilyn Monroe married genuis playwright Arthur Miller and baseball God Joe DiMagio. Who do today’s stars marry? Kevin Fererline or the morons on Fall Out Boy or Good Charlotte. Can you even imagine one of the younger stars knowing the name of a playwright, much less marrying one?

    Like


  93. Mike: two things. There is nothing “racist” about discussing an observable phenomenon like interracial dating or whatever. This is a dating discussion blog, moron.

    I read “angry white male” as a racist slur, so go to hell.

    Like


  94. on October 24, 2007 at 10:21 pm David Alexander

    That’s why it surprises me that you have such trouble attracting ANY white women.

    Eh, it probably has something to do with the fact that I generally just don’t ask any women out. 🙂

    Seriously, I’ve never had any white women flirt with me with the exception of the older woman who I lost my virginity to 4 years ago. So far, it’s only been one or two black girls and one Latina.

    LOL

    Don’t feed the troll.

    Explain the reference because I’m missing it.

    Like


  95. Days of Broken Arrows – where do you live, because although I myself have my complaints with women, you must be exaggerating a bit. In the marriage announcements in the newspaper my parents get in Pennsylvania, the couples are basically all in their 20’s, white, and the cute girls are marrying guys of similar education. While I do think the dating system has gotten worse, I do find it hard to believe that that many educated women are going for “thugs”. As for the Jewish nurse, I wonder why she’s on J-date in the first place if she likes janitors. I think any phenemenon of women going mostly for guys beneath them has got to be pretty small overall, I just don’t see it. I think it’s more likely women are going for wealthy alpha player types.

    As for white women who have dated black men, we don’t want them back. The lack of judgment to date someone with that risk of STD’s and violence is a big turnoff to many guys.

    One strategy for guys in their late 20’s may actually be to date girls 18-20…many are impressed with anyone with maturity past what boys their age have. Of course some others are fucking the football team so you have to be careful.

    Like


  96. Broken Arrows–

    Superb posts, once again. Your description of the current scene in Britain is one I’ve alluded to here before. If you want to see the future, go see the movie “Fight Club” in which everything you say takes place.

    Like


  97. “As for white women who have dated black men, we don’t want them back. The lack of judgment to date someone with that risk of STD’s and violence is a big turnoff to many guys.”

    Out of curiosity, what sort of black people do you associate with? All the black people I know are young professionals or in the process of getting advanced degrees and are not any more likely to contract STDs and beat their women than I or my other white friends are.

    The assertions you are making could easily be made about poor or trailer trash whites.

    Like


  98. #90: ‘Women who were now earning men’s salaries and drinking like men (or whatever) sought out “hyper-men” — thugs and players. I repeatedly see this in younger women.

    Thus, younger men no longer go to college and cover themselves with tattoos. Prison culture is huge. The Preppie Murderer just got busted again, and of course he had a g/f at his side. America is becoming like the UK, where women rule the roost and men rome in gangs, beating the shit out of each other, drinking, and roughing up females.

    This is called an “unintended consequence.” All would agree women should be paid the same as men for the same work. Yet and unintended consequence of that is women no longer want “men” they want “thugs.”’

    Men roaming in gangs and beating each other up is the result of welfare payments to single mothers and the absent father phenomenon. It’s odd to ascribe it to women’s careerism, as you appear to do here. It’s true that feminists of middle class origin have been among the staunchest supporters of welfare for single mothers, but they did not anticipate that this would worsen the absentee father problem in many communities. That’s the real unintended consequence here.

    The phenomenon of women dating “down” (or is it up? seems to be some confusion about that in this discussion) and choosing thuggish men who are beneath them in class terms, is complicated and has more to do with a general cultural trend that encourages the young to be “real”, “cool”, and hostile to suburban values, than it does with women’s careers.

    Like


  99. on October 25, 2007 at 12:10 am David Alexander

    As for white women who have dated black men, we don’t want them back. The lack of judgment to date someone with that risk of STD’s and violence is a big turnoff to many guys.

    So, if a woman dates an educated, non-violent black male, would you avoid her?

    Like


  100. Che Che, what do you mean, “aside from Muslim countries”? That’s an awfully large part of the non-western world: North Africa, the Middle East, the Islamic republics of Central Asia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, part of western China, a significant part of India, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Indonesia, and a bit of Thailand. That’s a rather large number of people there, some of the most populous nations in the world, and in many of these societies families will be doing the choosing for their women folk. That’s not invariably true, of course, but it is still very common.

    Leaving aside the Muslim world, there’s Hindu India, where parents’ preferences still determine women’s marital choices for a large part of the population (again, not all; there are modern Indian families that don’t do this); and much of non-urbanized sub-Saharan Africa, where fathers often choose their daughters’ husbands.

    Of course, in societies like this, men don’t usually have a free choice of wives either. But they may be allowed more input by their families than their brides are permitted, and in such cases they are often allowed more than one wife, and may also patronize prostitutes.

    Like


  101. on October 25, 2007 at 12:26 am David Alexander

    Men roaming in gangs and beating each other up is the result of welfare payments to single mothers and the absent father phenomenon.

    Gangs tend to be made up of mostly teens and young twenty somethings who grow up without fathers and discipline. Most kids join the gang for protection, and sell drugs and commit crimes to make money. The gang is seen to be more glamourous than the work that they qualify for, so they stay in the gang, get protected and make some money from the drug sales. In turn, these guys get women pregnant, and because they have no sense of responsibility or fatherhood they leave the women to fend for herself with no real repercusion from the community. Also, the women view the men as short-term prospects, so once a baby comes along, the women aren’t interested in keeping an unemployed man around either. Almost two generations of black children have grown up without a father, so many men and women have no idea of the role of a father, and not just the financial role, but most importantly, the emotional role that a man has in the lives of his child(ren).

    Like


  102. “So, if a woman dates an educated, non-violent black male, would you avoid her?”

    Educated? Non-violent?

    Heavens, does such a creature even exist?

    Like


  103. on October 25, 2007 at 12:34 am Days of Broken Arrows

    Alias Clio said:
    “Men roaming in gangs and beating each other up is the result of welfare payments to single mothers and the absent father phenomenon.”

    Wrong! This is what conservatives would have you believe. Welfare in and of itself does not cause problems. The problems, rather, are cause by something the New York Times ascribed to “the wild gene.” It’s a gene carried by men of a certain type — the type who leave, have drug problems, etc.

    The problem with out of control youth is that woman are now breeding with men like these more than ever before. This was frowned upon in both the black and white communities years ago. Now, thanks to the rise on gangsta culture, women breed with bad boys creating little bad boys.

    If women on welfare chose to breed with Bill Gates clones, I can assure you the result would be different. Genetics do matter and people — especially women — need to realize this.

    Like


  104. on October 25, 2007 at 12:46 am Days of Broken Arrows

    Jack,

    The reason my Jewish female friend is on J-Date is because she seeks “chemistry” with someone in her social bracket, but seems to only find it with those who do no jobs but nice biceps!

    This was a bad example, she is an extreme case. But I see this in other places, and the New York Times has written about it — more women than men are graduating college, leaving women to date guys with no degrees and no prospects. Feminists have doped up these young women so badly that they cannot conceive of dating a successful man 10 years older (as women did throughout history), because the false “balance of power” theory keeps them from it.

    But you are right; that was an extremer example. We live in the Rockville area; she just turned 30.

    Like


  105. on October 25, 2007 at 12:56 am David Alexander

    Next question, would a Bill Gates clone have sex with a woman on welfare? The sperm-bank excuse doesn’t count since most women in this situation have unplanned pregnancies. So in effect, this means that the welfare woman would have to be attracted to the Bill Gates clone, and the Bill Gates clone would have to be willing to have sex with this welfare woman. IIRC, since scientific studies seem to point out that those with IQ have lower sex drives, it’s less likely that type of male would have unprotected sex or any sex with a “welfare queen”, nor would they exist in the same environment.

    In effect, the out of wedlock births that are growing in both the black and white communities are in effect with the lower classes. Interestingly, the males in these communities who employment options were once in unskilled work have become unemployed due to unskilled work either going overseas or being outsourced to illegal immigrant labour. We don’t see upper middle class whites having children out of wedlock at 22. We see lower class whites and blacks, in some cases magically having a college degree doesn’t solve the problem.

    Like


  106. on October 25, 2007 at 1:02 am David Alexander

    Feminists have doped up these young women so badly that they cannot conceive of dating a successful man 10 years older (as women did throughout history), because the false “balance of power” theory keeps them from it.

    Anecdote zone: My feminist friends all dated men who were older and didn’t feel abused or any effects of this balance of power. Of course, they’re all mature, intelligent, and confident women. Like I stated, it’s an anecdote at best, and unlike Ganon’s examples of an adult dating a minor, all parties in question were adults.

    Even if women do date these older men, that leaves a new pile of uneducated, unemployable men. Will these men eventually finish college, mature and become successful, or will they stay at the “fringe” of society? The successful men that you speak of are successful because they have the advantage of age to push up their earnings, but, these men finished their schooling on time unlike their younger counterparts.

    Like


  107. Feminists have doped up these young women so badly that they cannot conceive of dating a successful man 10 years older (as women did throughout history), because the false “balance of power” theory keeps them from it.

    Good point. My experience in the US was that college age girl really don’t date men over 25, so I have a lot of respect of Roissy if he can still land late teens in his early thirties. For a 30 year old looking for marriage, the standard should be the 20 year old girl, not the divorced 30 year old.
    Real time story now: when I was in the US I knew a guy (28) who dated a 19 year old female, the neighbors considered him creepy becasue a “grown man was dating a child”, and her parents hated his guts. Other countries are not a paradise, but the US must be the worse dating market for men in the world, specially for middle class ones.

    Like


  108. Welfare in and of itself does not necessarily cause problems, no, except perhaps in the sense that it can be a heavy burden on taxpayers. But it does appear to cause chaos in communities that are made fragile by pre-existing poverty and lack of education.

    I don’t think that genetics don’t count. But they don’t count for everything. Otherwise it would be impossible to explain why the African-American community in the United States, which was far more peaceful and law-abiding 60 years ago than it is today even at the lowest social levels, according to any studies I’ve read, should have experienced such a radical collapse at those levels. (I am aware that not all black American males are criminals, thugs, or absentee fathers.) Surely it’s not possible that poor black women rejected all the decent men around them and chose to have children only with thugs for the last 45 years or so? And if in fact that is what they are doing, then surely welfare payments helped make it possible for them to sustain this otherwise insupportable way of life?

    Incidentally, the idea that genetics are responsible for criminal behaviour is a far more “conservative” idea, in the original sense of the term, than the idea that bad laws or customs are to blame. First, it’s a very old idea: the notion that a person has “bad blood” and cannot be expected to behave decently is one of the oldest human explanations for criminal behaviour. Second, it was one of the ideas behind the eugenics movement, which wasn’t strictly a conservative phenomenon (it was once seen as progressive) but is now widely associated with Nazi Germany. Third, the habit of blaming genetics for human problems really makes any form of social improvement impossible, without restricting breeding opportunities and/or killing the “breeders.” I don’t for one minute suppose that you would advocate this – but you use the term “conservative” in a fashion that suggests you see it as pejorative. If so, then I must point out that you appear to be rather more conservative than I am.

    Like


  109. “guess that’s why I’m a lawyer and CEO of two growing international, non-law companies who has traveled to Europe for 1-2 weeks every month for the past 15 months, and you’re still scowling and making sarcastic comments on blogs and in Arlington bars packed with losers, or whatever the f*ck you’ve been doing lately.”

    You are full of shit. You are CEO of my taint.

    Like


  110. Surely it’s not possible that poor black women rejected all the decent men around them and chose to have children only with thugs for the last 45 years or so?
    There might be some true to that statement. Is it possible that young women in their most fertile years instinctively choose bad boys? That social presssure didn’t let them do that before. I myself had to become arrogant and aggressive to get my girlfriends, being nice or hardworking is useless when you are trying to attract16-22 year olds.

    Like


  111. Scientists prove Roissy right.

    The rest of y’all, especially DA, are a bunch of monkeys.

    Like


  112. Is it possible that young women in their most fertile years instinctively choose bad boys? That social presssure didn’t let them do that before.

    In places where arranged marriages are commonplace, that’s not a problem since women’s (and sometimes men’s) choices don’t come into play. In contrast, in pre-1960s America, arranged marriages didn’t really exist, but people dated and chose their own partners. Interestingly, dating books from the 1930s encouraged women to have multiple dating partners while those in the 50s encouraged the opposite.

    It’s quite possible that women did go for bad boys back then, but at the sign of a pregnancy, they’d find a stable male to quickly fill the role of daddy.

    IIRC, isn’t “alpha” sperm deemed to be superior to “beta” sperm?

    The rest of y’all, especially DA, are a bunch of monkeys.

    Okay, I’ll bite, why am I a monkey?

    Like


  113. I didn’t mean that all black guys are violent or thugs, what I mean is that most white women who date or hook up with mostly black men seem to be lower-class and not highly educated. There are exceptions. If a woman once had a relatioship with a stable black guy who was higher class, that would be different. Possibly…

    Broken Arrows – Your Jewish nurse friend will be desperate and bitter at 35, because she is fucking stupid. She’s already past her prime age for marrying, and she acts like she’s about 16.

    More women are going to college than men, but this is for average students or worse. Among the upper middle class, basically everyone goes to college. But among the working class, many men see more value in learning a trade than in getting a useless degree.

    Like


  114. But in certain regions of the country, blue collar work is seen as “nigger” work, and despite the high income potential, many parents don’t want their daughters to marry such men, and some professional women are uninterested in dating such men. The problem isn’t so much that the women want to marry up (which one can’t dismiss), but the professional women and blue collar men are on different social wavelengths. So while the woman may want to visit art museums and galleries and see plays, he may want to simply hang out in a bar and play darts or go to a sporting event. A college educated male is more likely to enjoy the activities that the female enjoys.

    Besides, how many people brag about their son-in-law the plumber versus their son-in-law the lawyer?

    Like


  115. Alias #108, if the black community was a lot more law-abiding 60 years ago it’s because it was a lot smaller then and there was enough racism and a tougher white population that could keep them in line if the situation required. Today our smaller, substantially more feminized white population not only doesn’t have either the numbers or the balls to do this, but in fact actively promotes this kind of behavior as being “authentically black” (consider Clarence Thomas vs. Michael Vick or R. Kelly, for example)

    If you want to talk about race here, I’ll tell you that I think that as the U.S. white population shrinks it will become more racially conscious and not buy into this shit, but that’s for later.

    In the meantime, the rising level of violence against blacks perpetrated by Hispanics in places like southern California is subject of another urban legend that whites had to have proxies to do this for them. Yes, I guess it’s just another job Americans won’t do. . .

    Like


  116. Broken Arrows #104, yes indeed. But as I’ve pointed out here before, we Jews are conducting a controlled experiment in this regard. Your self-centered JAP nurse friend will not get to spawn, as she doesn’t get the biological reality. Meanwhile, the Orthodox and their patriarchal ways circumscribing the roles women may play will proliferate and will ultimately be THE Jewish population not only in America but in Israel as well.

    Like


  117. roissy, why can’t you just admit when you’re wrong? am i hed? or tracylordofthelies? your infallible truths don’t always measure up.

    1) you claimed this is a measurement of ‘dating’ market value, not fuckability. do you not delineate – who a man dates vs. who a man fucks?

    2) do you honestly believe that women with means and options won’t and don’t behave exactly the same as men? that we don’t notice the hot younger guy and want to fuck him?

    Like


  118. “You are full of shit. You are CEO of my taint.”

    I think you and your taint are one and the same.

    And oh yeah, wake me when your insults cross over from the land of the morons into the mainstream.

    Like


  119. “So, if a woman dates an educated, non-violent black male, would you avoid her?”

    The points a few people made about black guys whom white girls date having STDs and being uneducated and violent overstates the case and misses the point. I live in the VA/DC/MD area, and in my observation, it’s usually the more intellignet, charming, clean-cut and athletic black guys who can attract certain non-trashy white girls. Like I noted earlier, there is a substantial black middle class in this area, esp. in MD, so there is no shortage of non-ghetto young black guys.

    Having said all that, people don’t date randomly. With regards to race, especially in terms of black-white, for most people it’s an either-or case. That’s because, interracial dating taboos nonwithstanding, white / black cultures and norms are very different from each other. Whites and blacks listen to different kind of music, have a different sense of humor, courtship, style, dress, laughing, speech, pretty much everything.

    So a few sexually omnivorous women aside, most women will settle into either dating only blacks or only whites. And all else being equal, the vast majority of white women will date white men because people are naturally comfortable with their own. And the person here who said that white guys will shun girls who have dated blacks is right.

    Since I also mentioned the miscegenation taboo, it’s probably there for a reason: most people, regardless of race, want their grandchildren to look like them, and share their basic traits. And knowing a few mulatto kids, it’s clear that the black traits are very dominant, and the older the kid gets, the less he or she resembles the white parent. And also identifies less with the white side of the family.

    That taboo is reinforced by observably disproportionate failings of many black men, mostly abandonment and/or financial mismanagement. And you can’t discount the latent racial animosity that goes both ways and which I believe will always be there.

    Like


  120. And mike, don’t bother to touch my blog, I have a top level account with my hosting company and can implement any kind of firewall I want, as well as trace your IP address. And I can find out who you are, no problem. I am a professional opposition researcher and background investigator who can come up with something from nothing.

    (Sigh) Yet another Keyboard Warrior …

    Like


  121. The problem isn’t so much that the women want to marry up (which one can’t dismiss), but the professional women and blue collar men are on different social wavelengths. So while the woman may want to visit art museums and galleries and see plays, he may want to simply hang out in a bar and play darts or go to a sporting event. A college educated male is more likely to enjoy the activities that the female enjoys.

    I don’t know … the SCA’s who torment me on the train every day, who of course are from the very top of the socioeconomic scrotum, er, totem, pole, seem obsessed with sports (especially The Most Important Sport in the World – all hail the Almighty NFL!) They read nothing except the sports pages, and on the rare occasion that I do not use my iPod to drown out their chatter, they babble about nothing except sports.

    Like


  122. on October 25, 2007 at 4:38 pm startingtoday

    I’m down with alias clio’s comments.

    Like


  123. I usually don’t like to write one word comments, but…

    AWESOME

    Like


  124. on October 25, 2007 at 5:41 pm David Alexander

    There are much nicer ways of saying that, but I do see your point. White girls who connect with black culture and black men are undesirable to white men who want women who connect with white culture. I understand your point, and it’s probably why I have such difficulties in getting white women. I’m not “culturally” black, and people online are surprised when they meet me in person to find that I’m black. My iPod is devoid of rap or hip-hop, BET is blocked on my satellite TV boxes, and I have more white than black friends. So white women who want black men don’t find me attractive, nor do white women who stick with white men.

    And also identifies less with the white side of the family.

    I think that’s because in the US, the idea of the “one drop rule” ends up turning even the lighter-skinned mixed race children into “black” children irregardless of their parent’s race. Barack Obama grew up with his white relatives and for all intents and purposes, he became black. In contrast, in Haiti where my family comes from, people kill to have mullatto children for the social advantages, and even slight shifts in skintone confer slightly better advantages. In the States I’m black, but in Haiti, I’m “red. IMHO, the multiracial experience is much easier in Canada where there’s less baggage, and the bulk of the black community is composed of Caribbean immigrants.

    Like


  125. There are much nicer ways of saying that

    David, I thought I was stating things in a reasonably “nice way”…. I made an effort to avoid the kind of emotionalism that accompanies this topic and describe things as I see them: that people really do seek out their own and for most people, dating really is an either/or with regards to race due to the profound cultural differences between black and white Americans.

    I agree with you that there are cultural differences between Carribean people of African ancestry, like you, and African-Americans.

    in Haiti where my family comes from, people kill to have mullatto children for the social advantages

    Didn’t Mulattos form a new ruling class after the French were expelled, and were in turn slaughtered by darker blacks?

    A genuine question, and I’m curious what you think… why don’t black (American) women exhibit the same desire to have lighter-skinned children by mating with whites that black males show by pursuing white women?

    Like


  126. DA, what you say about Haitian culture and US black culture is very interesting.

    I should mention that in the last months at my last job on Capitol Hill, I worked with a fascinating Haitian-born black guy (who grew up in NYC) with whom I immediately bonded because we both have an interest in black American culture and music, especially hip hop.

    Despite being highly educated (with a law degree and a masters in public policy from Harvard), this guy was “street” all the way, and used to talk about his days “blazin'” and pimpin’ in Brooklyn. Out of our whole office (which other than he, was 100% white), I was the only guy he bonded with as a friend, and he considered me an “honorary” black guy.

    Maybe part of your problems connecting with American women come from your disconnect with any kind of American culture — black or white? A lot of white girls who are drawn to black guys are drawn in for the wrong reasons — because of the “hood” thing, the gangsta thiing and all that. Maybe it’s the fact that you don’t project that street vibe they expect that some American chicks find a big let down.

    Like


  127. on October 25, 2007 at 7:35 pm David Alexander

    I was actually refering to other commenters. By far, your words were the moderating words of reason. 🙂

    I guess I’m different, but I’ve always found white women to be attractive and more “long-term partner” material than their black counterparts. White women come across as much sweeter and more feminine than their black counterparts. I’m not going to say that there are no nice black girls, but it’s easier to find a white one who’s good looking as well.

    Didn’t Mulattos form a new ruling class after the French were expelled, and were in turn slaughtered by darker blacks?

    “We” formed the ruling class for at least 150 years or so along with the few mid-range toned people like my grandfather and great grandfather who were “talented” enough to occupy various government posts. It wasn’t until the 1950s that the mullattos slowly lost power and that’s due to Duvalier’s regime policies which amounted to hating whites. My grandmother lost her hair salon because her mostly mullatto clientel was chased out of the country. They were the only ones who could really afford such expensive services on a continual basis.

    why don’t black (American) women exhibit the same desire to have lighter-skinned children by mating with whites that black males show by pursuing white women?

    I’ve yet to figure this out. Even the really white-acting black women hold out for black men. I suspect suspect they’re afraid of the cultural differences and they want somebody to share their experiences with, or maybe they’re afraid that white men aren’t interested in them. OTOH, black women come across as mean, bitchy, loud, and less feminine than their white counterparts, so maybe white men are scared of black women. There have been many stories written about this topic, and they all seem to focus on black men holding out for a black prince to come and save them, possibly with some bizzare father issues involved. The old theory of white men and female slaves seems overhyped to me. Now some professional black women are finally giving up and chasing after white men, but for the girls in the ghetto, the only men they have access to are the men they grew up with, the thugs and unemployed.

    Like


  128. on October 25, 2007 at 8:31 pm David Alexander

    Maybe it’s the fact that you don’t project that street vibe they expect that some American chicks find a big let down.

    Your Haitian friend is a peasant or he’s a liar. Many Haitian parents beat their kids for the crap he claimed that he did. Trust me, he probably stayed at home like a good little boy to do well in school. 🙂

    I know that I don’t really connect into any culture. I’m too white acting for the black kids, but I lack the college degree(s) to be around whites. I’m not geeky enough to hang out with geeks (a female railfan thought I was a metrosexual), but I’m too geeky for normal people. I really don’t fit it anywhere, and it’s exacerbated by elitism and shyness.

    Like


  129. DA – stop trying to rationalize it and face facts: women don’t like you, regardless of race, because nobody likes a weak, self-hating loser. it’s not rocket science. even roissy hates that you comment on his blog. solution: die in a fire.

    Joe T. – Think I’ve got you pegged. You’re “interested in Black American culture” but *quietly* bitter about Black guys stealing the white girls you don’t attract. Combining these two admissions, it’s easy to conclude that you’re one of the faceless loser white guys who secretly wishes he were Black because it would make him “cool and interesting” and, though he would never admit it, maybe provide him with a bigger penis. It all makes sense: we all despise that which we want to be but can’t. You probably have similar animosity towards alpha male white guys, who you probably wrote off as “dumb jocks” in high school and college and now just consider “douchebags” or something of the sort. Loser.

    Oh but wait, you’re a super-lawyer/CEO/private investigator/webmaster/Capitol Hill staffer, so none of this could possibly be true. Like your imaginary haitian friend. Again: loser. Join DA in the bonfire of the shitbirds.

    sorry roissy, no more flames from me. i just needed a break.

    Like


  130. Mike, with all due respect, is it your job to “peg” people like that? But your post was funny anyway, especially the part about the bigger penis, so for that bit of bio-social analysis and deep thinking, I’ll forgive you!

    Like


  131. Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t read the second part of your post. That kind of “pegs” you as a guy who is just jealous of anyone who is accomplished in any way (perhaps moreso than himself, wink wink, nudge nudge), and resents that, and so has to go around making high-handed, judgmental, sarcastic remarks about it all, just to prop up his bitterness and low self-esteem.

    Oh no, I’m sorry, that must be everyone else, right? Certainly not yourself.

    Like


  132. David, you’re probably right that he exaggerated about most of it. But at least he could give off the ghetto vibe when he wanted to, or needed to.

    More interesting was that his cousin, who also lived in DC and worked at a major national black organization, married a white girl who was at the very top of her class at Stanford Law.

    Like


  133. joe T – I bet the Stanford Law girls’ parents were REAL happy bout that…but seriously, though, was it really that hard pulling tail as a bigtime lawyer and CEO?? Aren’t DC girls supposed to be like the most materialistic?

    Like


  134. Jack – I was much poorer when I lived in DC. Also, I’ve never said DC area women are the most materialistic. The ones on the Hill are very status-oriented, but that’s different from materialistic.

    On the contrary, what I found in the DC area was women putting a lot more emphasis on men’s looks than other things, including money.

    Many’s the DC area couple I’ve known where the female was an ambitious young career climber, and her boyfriend was a unemployed or underemployed slacker with much less education, but much better looking, than she.

    For instance, the 25 year-old CPA from McLean, VA, who was pulling in an easy six figures with an accounting firm, with an 18 year-old live-in boyfriend who looked like a biker, played in a band, and did occasional work for a lighting contractor.

    Or the 27 year old ambitious, hard-driving legislative assistant on the Hill, whose 21 year-old Latino boyfriend looked like a pumped-up Ricky Martin and worked at a car dealership, but faithfully came home faithfully every night to cook her dinner.

    These are just 2 anecdotal couples, but I noticed this kind of pattern was VERY common in the DC area — “empowered”, feminist females who had most of the ambition, and dated way “down” as far as power was concerned, but “up” as far as looks.

    Interesting that DC is the only place I’ve seen this phenomenon on a large scale.

    Like


  135. #134, in public and political life, where status is based as much or more upon your opinions and attitudes as your worldly goods or power, one of the ways you can demonstrate that you are both socially open-minded and sexually adventurous is by dating in the way you describe. Not only will people in your circle not be shocked or repelled, they will likely praise you for it.

    I work in a highly political environment myself, and I used to live in DC, and I know the phenomenon very well.

    Like


  136. Alias clio, there was also a tremendous amount of hypocrisy going on, on the Hill. For instance, I noticed lots of unmarried couples who were living together and not engaged (and who had no intention of getting engaged), referring to each other as “my fiance” among colleagues. Often, they would even hide the fact they were living together from co-workers. Whereas, in western cities like Las Vegas or LA, no one bothers to hide any of this. If you’re living together, you’re living together, and everybody knows it.

    In political DC, there is a lot of pandering to “the folks back in the district” — meaning the congressional district or state. If it would outrage Aunt Edna and the Future Farmers of America, it is simply not talked about.

    Like


  137. Joe T – thats interesting, my impression of DC was a place where young sluts went after powerful middle-age guys, when in fact, it can be completely opposite in the way you describe. I’ve never even really heard of the type of cases you describe in the NY area. I’m sure there are some, but it seems rare. Women here care about status and money a lot.

    I would think California is a pretty good scene for guys although I know it’s very expensive.

    Like


  138. on October 26, 2007 at 9:37 pm Days of Broken Arrows

    “Joe T – thats interesting, my impression of DC was a place where young sluts went after powerful middle-age guys…”

    Don’t change that opinion because it is still largely correct, However, Joe T second what I have observed regarding financially independent women who prefer pretty boys to providers.

    However, I still contend the latter takes place becasue these types of women feel competitive with men in the job market and that bleeds over into their personal lives. I’ve witnessed this first hand. This is also alluded to on a episode of Seinfeld where George gets a good looking woman only after he admits he’s unemployed and lives with his parents! Anyone remember that one?

    Like


  139. alias clio:
    Men roaming in gangs and beating each other up is the result of welfare payments to single mothers and the absent father phenomenon. It’s odd to ascribe it to women’s careerism, as you appear to do here.

    it’s both.
    welfare and female financial independence (careerism) have combined to create a perfect storm of disincentives pushing men away from marriage-minded provider roles.

    evo psychs have been studying this phenomenon for decades. given that women date up, when they leap ahead in career and financial success their dating pool of acceptable men naturally dries up. throw in the substitute father figure of government handouts and this all leads inevitably, and predictably to anyone without an ideological axe to grind, to fewer men getting married and instead turning to lives of caddish devil-may-care womanizing.

    feminism shoulders much of the blame for this state of affairs.

    Like


  140. Again, go rent “Fight Club”.

    Like


  141. This blogs notion of what actually attracts men to women for long-term relationships is really quite childish. The notion that shared ideals, values, and social background do not play into it is completely false. Just examine your own relationship ideals (if you are a man), you’ll see that looks and sexual submissiveness are just one part.

    Like


  142. Roissy, a notable thing missing from this quiz is height. Doesn’t that matter at all? What about women who are over 6ft or under 5ft?

    Like


  143. […] October 19, 2007 by roissy Dating market value test for women is here.  […]

    Like


  144. What is “LJFB Rejections”?

    Like


  145. on August 14, 2008 at 6:31 pm Patrick Bateman

    My #1 is a 47.

    Like


  146. just been looking through roissy’s site..finding it quite depressing to say the least. I am 21, and according to the dating market value test (and believe me i scored myself if anything underwhelmingly) i am a nascent alpha. i’m unconvinced as to the validity of this test..certain ‘assests’ that were disparaged in it have got me nothing but compliments. and trouble. i have barely ever been hit on by older men..where are all these older men? i’m from australia so perhaps it’s different here. i wouldn’t mind meeting one.

    Like