A Test Of Your Game

Imagine yourself in the following scenario:

You’re sitting on an antique couch in your local coffeehouse, your feet propped up on the small, knee-high table in front of you, your laptop resting on your legs. You pretend to peck away at the keyboard while surreptitiously scanning the room for cute girls. It’s late afternoon on a Sunday. The room is large and crowded with people chatting, working, and lounging on crappy chairs and sofas sipping from oversized mugs, including a young couple snuggling in an adjacent chair next to you.

A girl walks up and sits on the couch opposite yours about six feet away, facing you, with the coffee table in between. She is your ideal girl — here you will picture in your mind what she looks like. (For me, that happens to be mid-20s, pale skin, dark hair, big eyes, high cheekbones and petite.)

You think… you’re not sure… that she briefly glanced at you as she sat down and settled into the couch. If so, she saw you checking her out. Eyes met, your heart fluttered. You’re not sure about the flutter status of her heart, but you assume it kept a steady indifferent beat. She pulls out a laptop — a Macbook, you note to yourself — lifts the screen and studiously peruses its contents. You look down at your monitor and a vice suddenly grips your chest as the realization dawns on you that if you don’t try to meet this girl the regret and frustration afterwards will haunt you for weeks.

I’ve described for you everything you need to know. So…

What do you do?

(You girls may answer what you would want the guy to do. Not that it will matter. We advanced experts of the human condition are smart enough to know not to take seriously anything a woman *says* she wants in regards to pickup.)





Comments


  1. She is your ideal girl — here you will picture in your mind what she looks like. (For me, that happens to be mid-20s, pale skin, dark hair, big eyes, high cheekbones and petite.)

    We all know what it would mean for me.

    Like


  2. on September 25, 2008 at 4:27 pm Pope Goaz D'Weezil

    I put on my robe and wizard hat.

    Like


  3. I’d start start singing:

    “you are so beautiful … to me, can’t you see …. yeAARGH everything I hoped for! YEARRGHEV’RYTHING I NEED!! (sob!) you are … so … beautiful … to … meeeeeeee …. “

    Like


  4. What would I do? Simply get up, put my Thinkpad down, walk straight over to her, introduce myself and invite her to join me. Maintain eye contact, even voice, let the Force flow through you.

    I’ve done it many times. Never fails. Especially on White gals.

    Not a bad physical descript either, Roissy. Of course, in my scenario shed be built a bit closer to a Sista, maybe a Jewess from the Med, something like that.

    Holla back

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  5. I immediately loathe her because she is using a Mac. I am incapable of becoming sexually aroused by girls who buy Macbooks.

    Like


  6. I’d open with a neg about the Macbook.

    Like


  7. I’d get up, go around to the back of her chair, pull out my tool and then Bismark the back of her head. It’s a subtle attention-getter.

    Like


  8. PA brings up a good point with his joking post. Very few here talk about the way music can strike directly at a girl’s core.

    You don’t have to be a singer or musician; just having her listen to music will do. I fell for that one many times myself.

    With laptops at the ready, just use music sharing as a pretext. Say you are excited about this piece of music you just discovered, and since she has a laptop, too, you wanted to invite her to listen.

    Like


  9. That’s the old school way of thinking: hoping to strike up a connection by blindly approaching a hot stranger that you have no other reason to talk to.

    If you want to strike up a new romance, be more social and outgoing in your day to day life, or change your routine so that you are around more people. Bartenders can get all the sex they want because they are in a natural position for it.

    Don’t just think you can pick a hot stranger out of a crowd and think you can smooth on up to her with the right “game”. It rarely works, and when it does, it’s usually only for men with an unusual combination of out-going personality and charisma.

    Like


  10. I flick a dingle berry at her forehead

    Like


  11. dumb. if she glanced at you she has already sized you up and decided whether or not you’re the type of guy she wants to meet. All you need to do is smile, and start talking to her…doesnt matter what you say. If she likes what she perceives of you, you’re in (provided you capably of conversation). otherwise she’ll politely endure your attempt at game and try to look busy until you get the idea…

    Like


  12. if she glanced at you she has already sized you up and decided whether or not you’re the type of guy she wants to meet.

    One school of thought is that her physical attraction test seals the deal, and nothing you do will change that, should you fail it.

    Others say that Game overcomes her immediate lack of physical attraction.

    I don’t know which view is true.

    But I do know how to sing:

    What would you think if I told you
    I’ve always wanted to hold you
    I don’t know what we’re afraid of
    Nothing would change if we made love

    So I’ll be your friend
    And I’ll be your lover
    ‘Cause, I know in our hearts we agree
    We don’t have to be one or the other

    Like


  13. PA brings up a good point with his joking post. Very few here talk about the way music can strike directly at a girl’s core.

    You don’t have to be a singer or musician; just having her listen to music will do. I fell for that one many times myself.

    With laptops at the ready, just use music sharing as a pretext. Say you are excited about this piece of music you just discovered, and since she has a laptop, too, you wanted to invite her to listen.

    You are so right, Hope!

    Music can and often does move me deeply and is able to evoke a multitude of worlds for me to experience.

    Like


  14. Well, my dreamgirl would be around 15… but I’m probably a decade younger than Roissy.

    Like


  15. For the average guy I would recommend letting 5-10 minutes pass without acknowledging her. This will keep you from being perceived as being too eager and aggressive and also allow her a moment to relax and let her guard down.

    Then after the 5-10 minute cooling off period has passed, look for a natural opportunity to say something clever without being offensive. Smile and make eye contact. If she reciprocates and doesn’t get up and walk away – put your laptop aside, sit up, maintain eye contact and a smile and make conversation. If she reciprocates again – slowly and delicately introduce an appropriate level of game, but don’t completely turn into something you’re not – and don’t get so wrapped up in your own performance that you lose sight of how YOU feel about her as you get to know more about her.

    Like


  16. You tell ’em Chuck! My sentiments exactly.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  17. first time commenting here. here’s what i’d do:

    i suppose i’d nonchalantly strike up a conversation based either on something im thinking about or something going on in the room. if she looks like she gets hit on a lot and has a shield against being picked up, i’d probably tease (“neg”) her a bit first to make my disinterest overt.

    Like


  18. Yours Truly, it must then make your day when I break into song:

    “What can I do
    Pictures of you still make me cry
    Trying to live without your love
    It’s so hard to do “

    Like


  19. Light neg on the MacBook, using SWPL as the intro. Providing you’re not using a MacBook yourself. (Actually, that might be even better…)

    Like


  20. I’d like to think that I’d sack up and walk over to approach her directly. 50/50 chance that’d happen.

    Like


  21. Players on paper, let the theories commence. Let’s distinguish between what we would do in the nice detached and anxiety-free zone of thought experiment, and what actually would happen in the heat of battle… For the thought experiment, it’s easy: “You are just my girlfriend’s physical type, she loves [x]. You’re lucky she’s not here or she’d be all over you.” 90% she goes ice, 10% it’s good, with a prospect for threesomes down the road.

    Like


  22. If it’s a place I frequent and you haven’t seen her before, then a simple, “Hi, I haven’t seen you here before. I’m so an so” probably works to start a conversation, because if you say it comfortably it makes it seem like you might know a lot of people at that particular coffee shop even if you don’t.

    My favorite thing to get a girl interested after an introduction though is asking her a question – something innocuous like what she’s working on or what she’s drinking, and then generally regardless of her answer saying something like “Oh, so you’re one of THOSE people.”. It’s kind of a neg and she’ll probably be curious about what you mean.

    Like


  23. Yours Truly, it must then make your day when I break into song:

    🙂 Aw, you are sweet, PA!!!

    Like


  24. If it’s a place I frequent and you haven’t seen her before, then a simple, “Hi, I haven’t seen you here before. I’m so an so” probably works to start a conversation, because if you say it comfortably it makes it seem like you might know a lot of people at that particular coffee shop even if you don’t.

    Wrong. Totally transparent… among other things.

    Like


  25. Making fun of apple products is soooo last week. Just by the fact that everybody so far has said they’d neg on the macbook means that she’s probably heard it a million times before and would put you in the “same as all the others” category.

    I’d walk up to her, say hi, find out what she was working on, and then tell her I’ll do it for her in half the time so we could go for a walk over to my place to throw pieces of warm apple meringue pie at each other and then run through the sprinklers to clean off, after which we’d lie on the grass making sweet love all night long while staring at the shooting stars going by.

    these open ended questions are tough though.. next time multiple choice please.

    Like


  26. Give it a few minutes as she settles and gets her Macbook running. Then non-nonchalantly notice her Macbook.

    “Hi, I’m a PC.”
    If you get a “Hi, I’m a Mac” back, then push the conversation from there…

    Like


  27. I would take out a piece of paper and start sketching a picture of her. Maybe she notices my exaggerated glances and furrowed brow, maybe not. Either way, when I’m done with my masterpiece, I get up and walk over to her. I say “I couldn’t help noticing you from across the table and I was overcome with the artistic impulse to sketch you….I’m thinking of calling it ‘Girl in a Coffee Lounge'”. Then I hand her the drawing. What she sees is the most pathetically drawn stick figure sitting on an equally pathetic looking couch. I offer to sign it for her. Either she laughs and plays along (demonstrating that she’s my kind of girl and I sit down next to her), or she doesn’t, in which case, I just hand her the sketch and return to my seat knowing that I negged a hottie and have her guessing.

    Like


  28. Sunday night, probably winding down after the weekend. Pretend you just got an email a second ago then use a conventional opener off of it. Laugh a little, as if you’re just reading it, then spontaneously look up and say ‘Hey, my friend was really drunk the other night and texted an ex saying he loved her, he just emailed/aimed (aim-ed might be more realistic) saying that he told her it was just the alcohol talking… I’m not sure though, do you think drunk I love you’s count?” Then finger length testosterone/estrogen transition after you’ve riffed a bit on that, a good routine to get her to sit closer – , make sure you bring her over to you (‘you look like a math/arts/business student or some job, come here and let me see your hand)

    It’s day game, but not street game so I guess it’s conventional game after that.

    Would I have the balls? No, I’d probably come up with some excuse.

    Like


  29. I would surreptitiously call my cell phone from the Skype app installed on my laptop, then loudly have a conversation about needing to move my 10,000 shares of Google into wind power companies, and while we are at it let’s look into selling off part of my company and donating all the profit to Friends of Animals. Then I end the call, look directly at her, and say “You look familiar. Two girls one cup, right?”

    Like


  30. When I was single, an oblique opener with a funny comment on the scene did work for me, but only when I felt that she was physically attracted to me in the first place. The chemistry was either instant, though subtle at first, or the vibes were dead.

    Whenever I’ve tried the guileless, direct “I’m so and so” approach, it never worked. Ever. Even if there was an initial spark, directness killed it.

    Like


  31. So far Jon @25 is in the lead…

    Like


  32. “Don’t just think you can pick a hot stranger out of a crowd and think you can smooth on up to her with the right “game”.”

    Speak for yourself. I do it weekly, monthly and yearly. And I am down with the capital CPT.

    3 moves that work like a charm:

    1. Dump out a pile of blow on the table of the coffee shop. Works every time.

    2. Spark up a cigarette. My ideal girl smokes.

    3. Ask her if she wants to split an E-Tab.

    – MPM

    Like


  33. “Drug Game” is on the rise in the Down Economy.

    Like


  34. i like brandy’s (#15) answer…

    combined with

    psst… hey… can you do me a favor? watch my stuff for a second…

    go to bathroom and over to semi-loudly flirt with barista (good to flirt with barista, always)

    come back… ask if there were trouble… check if nothing missing… compliment on job well done… tell her she can be your stuff watcher… proceed to normal conversation (what she’s/you are working on, depending on vibe)… go back to flirt with barista… come back… work a little… talk a little. after a while say you’re hungry, she’s fun, and should join you cause you might need her to watch your stuff again… (something similar to get number)…

    Like


  35. Making fun of apple products is soooo last week. Just by the fact that everybody so far has said they’d neg on the macbook means that she’s probably heard it a million times before and would put you in the “same as all the others” category.

    Nigga, you crazy?

    Bitches don’t no shit about computers.

    The macbook neg would work just fine.

    Like


  36. Hack into her mac! After that you would have something to talk about 😛

    But if you belong to the other part of the humanity, who can’t do anything like this – just like me – skip this part and create the link somehow else. Something spontaneously, if she is really my femme fatale then it won’t be _that_ hard.
    Mentioning something about her, just to start a conversation. If the sympathy is not one sided you can make her sit beside you, and then it’s on the good path.

    Part of the taking contact – or at least that’s it what i usually do – is a little direct, and don’t have to think too much: tell her about your situation, and that you had to tell this to her, because if you wouldn’t you would be haunted by this mistake afterwards. This is the really direct version of this strategy, you can do it in much softer – and probably much successful ways – you can see if she would like it or not – but mentioning life’s awkwardness’s and so on would create a nice and intimate link. If she is a little that philosophic kind of girl – whom I would like to hang out – then I it would work. It’s kinda filtering too.

    Like


  37. giesen 9:

    If you want to strike up a new romance, be more social and outgoing in your day to day life, or change your routine so that you are around more people.

    This doesn’t sound like a terribly practical solution. I am supposed to reorganize my whole life (most likely change my career, too, since in my field you’ll be working with 95%+ men, many of whom are dorky) just so I can meet women on a day to day basis?

    I don’t buy into the “just live your life normally and sooner or later you will meet a compatible woman” theory.

    Like


  38. I’d walk over and say hi. If she doesn’t go for it, I walk away. If she does go for it, then I engage her in conversation.

    Better to get it out of my system than wonder about what could have been.

    Like


  39. I know I’m female and I don’t count – but my advice is to seize the moment and smile at her dead on when you first see her. If she smiles back, there’s a good chance she’ll be open to further conversation later on, when you’ve come up with something to say; and if she just looks away, or presses her lips together in a half-smile, she’s not interested.

    Gamesters ought to be ready to take their moments when they occur, and that includes being ready to smile at someone you like the look of. The most sexually successful men I’ve known usually start with a smile.

    Clio

    Like


  40. This scenario is more challenging than the typical. I would say one thing about it is thus: Typically if you approach and blow out, it’s fine; you just walk away. But in this case, if it dies, you’re both there. Instintively you’d want to wrap up or move. If you do not possess the inner balls to hold your ground, you must man up. Otherwise she will sense your weakness, and you will flee with a shattered ego.

    “Don’t you find it difficult?”, “Uh, find what difficult?”, “Getting anything done in this place. I saw you poring over your laptop trying sooo hard to shut it all out. *impersonates via exaggerated brow furrowing* Like that girl in 8th grade who’s trying to take notes on the goofy cartoon movie dubbed in French, but can’t because Donald Duck sounds even more psychotic in Francais.” Smirk.

    She laughs? Roll on. She doesn’t? “Oh, maybe you ARE that serious.” Allow her an opportunity to answer the qualifier. Still silent? This girl is ice and I could do without the frostbite from her box.

    As far as too direct, girls are not stupid. If she’s attractive she realizes there is a 98% chance you are talking to her to get her.

    Like


  41. (woman here).
    # 29 Lane Honda would be irresistible.

    I’d stand up in braggadocio style to one-up him.

    “Move my 20,000 shares Google to the soybean startup in Iowa. Liquidate my entire company and donate it to buy mosquito nets for babies in Tanzania.”

    drop the icky video clip reference, though.

    Like


  42. I swear, you White guys think too much for your own good. Now I’m starting to see what T mant over on the Fannie Mae thread wrt AI.

    Giesen did allude to one thing that’s very important.

    And that has everything to do w/knowing who you are and what works for you. Everything ain’t for everybody. Certain approaches and ways of going aboutt things works better for some than others.

    Dave Alexander couldn’t do what I’d do in this scenario because his personality is ill suited for it. Likewise, I’ve never been very comfortable w/hiding my light under a bushel.

    So much of things like this is instinctual for me. Chuck summed up things very nicely, and amounts to what I do anytime I walk into a potential mating ground such as a cafe’.

    It ain’t that deep, fellas. Know Thyself, and All will be Known.

    And waiting for Roissy’s assessment…

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  43. on September 25, 2008 at 6:26 pm Hadron Collider

    It doesn’t matter what you do or say – you should instantly act.

    Myself – I would start smashing photons together to impress her and make sure it looked natural.

    Like


  44. Brandy —

    You are SO wrong. Jon may have started ok (by deciding not to be cliche negative about Apple) but his “offer to do her work in half the time” as one of his opening conversational gambits is so beta it’s painful to contemplate for more than a split second. You have just supplied a STELLAR textbook example about how females have no idea what they’re talking about when they advise men on pickup strategy. NONE.

    First I agree with those who’ve said the “perhaps” glance in my direction is a positive that invites exploration.

    Second though one has to make some assessment of the potential for immediate and active competition. If there are other viable competitors about, a slower wait to catch her eye and ironically / quisically smile at her may be a bit risky. A coffee house vibe is a bit different from a bar one, and there’s less likelinood she’ll stick around and try several rounds of competitiors. She may have to go soon – though her opening her laptop suggests not, but that she’s either meeting up with someone, or there to hang for a bit and maybe get things done, but also see what “might happen”.

    If there looks to be a bit of time though a bit of a wait while you notice and observe her from time to time, evaluating her, and then catch her eye and slowly smile ironically / quisically can built some very good anticipation in her.

    Still, it shouldn’t take long. Don’t sit there wating for the perfect moment for long. Approach with eye contact and start a light converstation around coffee house web surfing. Your mindset should be you’re checking her out, evaluating her from a stating position of intrigue, rather than trying oh so hard to prove yourself worthy. So start lightly (at first, with escalation as needed at the ready) challenging at least some of what she says, particularly any parts that are kinda canned.

    Like


  45. “Making fun of apple products is soooo last week. Just by the fact that everybody so far has said they’d neg on the macbook means that she’s probably heard it a million times before and would put you in the “same as all the others” category.”

    But she’s actually using a Macbook in a cafe. She’s not that hip. Besides, using SWPL as the intro means you’re meta-negging…

    Like


  46. Ask her for the time and then go take out my rage on an inexpensive prostitute.

    Like


  47. *I know, I’m a girl, so my opinion doesn’t count*, but for me, you’ve got to close up that space before you approach me.

    I like direct, but I’m a latina. Don’t try to talk to me while there is six feet in between us. How do I know you are talking to me? I might legitimately be engrossed in what I’m doing, and then how dumb are you going to feel when you have to repeat yourself? Unless I think you are hot, then I am waiting for anything, even a sneeze, so I can say “bless you”.

    I am very thankful animus brought up the fact that you both are still there if things go awry. Because unless I have a physical attraction to you, if you step up with something lame, I am going to have to leave if you don’t.

    Like


  48. I’d walk over and say “Yo, gimme your email so I can walk back to my seat and spam the SHIT outta you.” with a dead serious expression. Seriously.

    Like


  49. T —

    I like it.

    Like


  50. Buy her a beer! Wait, this is a fucking coffeehouse! If an establishment doesn’t serve booze, it doesn’t exist to me. Never mind.

    And QT, latina chicks like tequila, right? Let me know. Gracias!

    Like


  51. How about walking over to her and saying:

    “Despite the difference in operating platforms, I think my hardware would interface seamlessly with your software.”

    Like


  52. 40 Animus:
    “This scenario is more challenging than the typical. I would say one thing about it is thus: Typically if you approach and blow out, it’s fine; you just walk away. But in this case, if it dies, you’re both there.”

    ?????? I don’t get this. Why, in this case are we quadriplegic? “If it dies, we’re both there?” No WE’RE not…if I sense it ain’t working, I take my two legs and leave! What’s so different about the coffee shop that I can’t just GO? Or at least move to another part of the room?

    Like


  53. (remembering that she’s sitting opposite me)…or just dig my nose back in my laptop? hey, ill never see her again, so why worry about losing face?

    Like


  54. response to anonymous # 51:

    “do you have virus protection?”

    Like


  55. “Nice shoes. Wanna fuck ?”

    Like


  56. dougjnn, you’re taking his offer completely out of context. Clearly – he’s not really going to do her work for her – assuming she is even doing work. He’s just trying to make her laugh.

    Like


  57. Mu’Min: I swear, you White guys think too much for your own good.

    They do! *Every time* I’ve really screwed up my chances it’s been because I’ve started thinking about what would be the best way to impress and gotten stuck on creepy overthinking instead of just going for it. *Every time*. From the second big crush to, uh, dunno, maybe last week.

    Just say the first thing that pops into your head. Doesn’t work every time, but every time it’s better than any approach you would’ve contemplated for minutes, because it’ll come across as genuine, confident and just not creepy. It’s not important what your words are, it’s important that your words match your state of mind.

    Like


  58. White guys may think too much when it comes to what to say, but when it comes to dancing they really think too much. It always cracks me up to see a sober white guy counting off steps in a club just to do a simple two-step.

    Like


  59. The MacBook doesn’t lead to much, unless she’s a computer geek (and therefore, not my ideal girl, so, QED bitches)

    #15 and #34 are good. Let her get comfy for a bit, use the “watch my stuff” once and flirt with the barista (which has worked for me cold before, maybe 2 out of 6 times), then when you come back, bust on the couple a little. Maybe ask her if they made it to second base while you were gone?

    Tough call if they’re within audible distance, but double points if they’re necking, you can be a lot ballsier if they’re pretending to ignore you. Cuddling in a coffee shop is classic beta, dude deserves to be chirped mercilessly.

    Like


  60. Formal couples’ dancing (waltz, salsa, whatever) is easy if you know the steps and have a basic sense of rhythm. As far as freestyle club dancing, you shouldn’t do it if you don’t do it well.

    Like


  61. “It always cracks me up to see a sober white guy counting off steps in a club just to do a simple two-step.”

    He jus’ be flaun’in’ dem krazee-madd koun’in’ skillz.

    Like


  62. [email protected]: I’d walk up to her, say hi, find out what she was working on, and then tell her I’ll do it for her in half the time so we could go for a walk over to my place to throw pieces of warm apple meringue pie at each other and then run through the sprinklers to clean off, after which we’d lie on the grass making sweet love all night long while staring at the shooting stars going by.

    Let me explain why this works, at least for me, and any girl who had a reasonable sense of humor.

    #1 – It’s really funny. I wouldn’t be able to hold back a smile, I’d blush, and I’d be totally disarmed. You can get away with almost anything if it’s hilarious.

    #2 – He isn’t saying, “I’ll do that for you,” he’s saying “I can do that in half the time it would take you to do it” – which is a clever way of saying he’s intelligent and capable thus demonstrating his value.

    #3 – He doesn’t run the risk of having a girl take him up on his offer to do her work because she would then have to fill her end of the agreement.

    #4 – They can both work with this opener – there’s a lot of content – the conversation would not immediately fall flat.

    #5 – This is a perfect example of displaying confidence without being arrogant or hostile (which actually makes you seem insecure).

    Like


  63. He jus’ be flaun’in’ dem krazee-madd koun’in’ skillz.

    Like


  64. I would very surreptitiously take a peek up her skirt and get a panties shot – this is very important. (C’mon, this is a hypothetical and in my world its a girl in a very short skirt and her Macbook is providing me excellent shield). If I like what I see, then I take it to step two of my two step process, which is, look over at her, get her attention, maintain eye-contact for 1, maybe 10 seconds longer than that which is comfortable for her (again, in my hypo I can mesmerize women), then ever so slowly raise my right hand in the formation of a faux-claw pointed in her direction, and in precise unison, do a cat-like swipe, purr-hiss combination right at her. Let me just say this.. it works.

    Like


  65. @Deal:

    You misunderstand. I’m saying a lot of guys will feel the desire to get up and leave if he talks to a cute girl sitting near him at the coffee shop. You were there first! If you get up and move you let it affect you to the point where it’s just about as ‘beta’ as it gets.

    Digging back into what you were doing previously is preferred. I’m merely saying if you can’t control your flight response in this situation it’ll be bad.

    Like


  66. (For me, that happens to be mid-20s, pale skin, dark hair, big eyes, high cheekbones and petite

    I figured this was your type.

    When you say petite are you referring to height or build? Some people use petite in reference to body weight. I’ve notice that some of the women you like are tall like model Natila Vodolia so I’m confused(TP)

    for Clio-Model Lily Cole
    for Roissy-Stephanie Seymour
    For DA-coco(ice T’s wife)

    Like


  67. jaakkeli said:Just say the first thing that pops into your head

    Be careful with this^^^. What if the first thing in your head is how you can’t wait to get her in dogG.y style.

    Like


  68. PatrickH
    Light neg on the MacBook, using SWPL as the intro. Providing you’re not using a MacBook yourself. (Actually, that might be even better…)

    This is cute. It may work with me. It takes me a bit to open up because I am very afriad of strange men. Thank God I’m tall, because that scares a good number of men off.

    Like


  69. The prince of darkness invokes a thunderstorm over a solar eclipse, the electricity fails and all is black. He puts 5 candles on the table, which light instantly through his diabolical aura of ultimate hotness. He plays music with violins that caress my heart, then takes the laptop off my lap, hands me the tea and says “It would be a shame to let that deliciously aromatic tea go cold. Don’t worry about the lightning, I am here to protect you and hold your hand. Is that cinnamon you are drinking?”

    (We have a display of power, a demonstration of erotic desirability,creation of a romantic atmosphere, an act of caring dominance and protective touch all in one minute. We also all know how romantic electric power failure can be. Creating such a thing adds a bad boy element.)

    We then chat about herbal tea, and how it is healthy and what teas are the tastiest and he transitions smoothly into some intelligent conversation, showing a cute, nerdy side to balance the whole bad boy impression. While he is making me cups of tea all afternoon, his ability to boil water with a touch of his fingers reminds me of his hot, dangerous side. Just before the candles are finished, he brings up the subject of dancing and offers to take me to this cool new salsa place next Friday, but lets get out of the coffee shop just now to watch the sun return.

    (Balance of romantic, intelligent sweetheart and scorching hot hunk who uses his power in protective, helpful ways. The restoration of both the sun and the electricity make him a good guy on a mental level, while keeping the glamour of dark powers intact. He ends the meeting on a romantic note with the return of the sun.)

    :-p

    Like


  70. Hey, Chic Noir, wot’s dis about Clio and Lily Cole? I assure you I am no sapphist – if I were, I wouldn’t bother to hang around here.

    Or do you mean that you think she’s the kind of model whose looks I admire? Not really, I’m afraid. Today’s models don’t look very appealing to me; their clothes are too strange, their grooming is often poor and their makeup is too Goth-y.

    clio

    Like


  71. on September 25, 2008 at 8:54 pm Christopher Tracy

    I wouldn’t do a damn thing because I’d either be too afraid or my mind would keep searching itself, trying to find something nice or clever to say, which I can never come up with.

    Like


  72. Or do you mean that you think she’s the kind of model whose looks I admire?

    @Clio- Lily Cole is a high fashion model from England. You and I disagree on Gemma Ward but I think we can agree on Lily Cole. You may find Sessilee Lopez’s face interesting too.

    http://www.stormmodels.com/womendetails.html?id=2365

    Like


  73. Christopher Tracy, sometimes a hello will do.

    Like


  74. The woman’s response will give you a green,yellow or red light.

    Like


  75. If you own a macbook, as I do, the correct opening line is ‘Pff, what’s with the mac?’ with a look of semi-serious disgust and confusion. Then you can watch her stumble over an answer as she tries to reconcile reality with what you’ve just said.

    Like


  76. 69 – “He ends the meeting on a romantic note with the return of the sun.”

    … instead of busting a nut all over your sex-rushed, panting face inside the public bathroom he playfully manhandled you into, because he got LJBF’ed by going out of his way for you.

    Like


  77. I’d like to throw pigs blood on you just to see if you have telekinetic powers.

    Like


  78. I like Gemma Ward’s looks – do you not? I can’t remember saying I didn’t, at any rate. Not sure, though. I do remember that you didn’t agree that Stella Tennant or Jasmine Guinness were beauties. I understand about ST – her looks are very boyish – but I can’t see why you wouldn’t agree about JG.

    clio

    Like


  79. I notice an aggressive response to my story.

    Like


  80. on September 25, 2008 at 9:34 pm Christopher Tracy

    Chic,

    How would just a hello suffice? It seems too shiftless and that maybe it’d make the chick suspicious of something.

    Like


  81. on September 25, 2008 at 9:43 pm Milton Freedman

    The problem with telling someone hello will do is that the mind stays in that frozen state afterwards. The only way to get past the nervousness which inhibits your creative side is to repeatedly fail, which means some serious ego damage. If you can somehow plow through with that empty feeling of lost pride inside yourself you eventually come out on top.

    I mean seriously after hello the woman isn’t going to try to make conversation with you. You opened and now she expects you to say something and it better be good. Then you have to worry about initiating kino. For over analyzing types this can be a real problem because they feel if they didn’t do something in the required time frame that they have lost the “video game”.

    Game is dumb the only thing that can really win you in this situation is calm body language and not being afraid to show intent. She knows why you are talking to her… it is ridiculously clear. The only thing you can influence is how much time/money you spend until first sexual contact. Ideally you would spend no money, but several months before sexual contact (this is a difficult point because you want a chaste woman, but not one who is only chaste because your game sucks).

    Like


  82. I’d screw up my face, shake my head in disgust while muttering ‘jesus….” under my breath until she notices and then, eye contact established, pop the inevitable question: “was it you who farted?”

    Like


  83. Hi, I’m a PC!

    Like


  84. Maybe I should have read the thread before posting.

    Like


  85. Leer, then query “Am I the only one with a itchy poop-chute in this joint ?” in a knowing fashion, while attempting a wink that winds up looking like an uncontrollable facial tic.

    Like


  86. Brandy 56 —

    dougjnn, you’re taking his offer completely out of context. Clearly – he’s not really going to do her work for her – assuming she is even doing work. He’s just trying to make her laugh.

    Of course I didn’t think he was really going to “do her work for her” right then and there. The point is it’s entirely the wrong sort of message, or pretend or “try this out” kind of relatinship playing. Yeah, I realize you may not think so. I realize you may like that try out of the guy always sucking up, ready in the future to do her work for her. It’s not what actually most attacts women particularly on a fast and hot basis though, but it is what men — and you — have been endlessly taught by our culture that women want. In a sense they do. They may want it in a helpmate. They just don’t want it in a hot lover.

    To say it’s humorous is to miss the point. Humor isn’t literal but it also isn’t meaningless.

    Like


  87. Well whenever I am this kind of situation I just prefer a guy to stand up, unzip his pants, pull out his erect penis and say, “Suck it bitch.” It works all the time. Yummy.

    Like


  88. The best game is this: ignore and conquer. Being the one guy in the room who shows no interest in her will make her think about you all the more. Then, if I see her again a few days and she starts a conversation with me, perhaps I might fuck her. Perhaps.

    Like


  89. I’d continue doing stuff on my laptop while glancing up every once in a while to see if she’ll make eye contact, and then open or give it about 10, raise my head, look at her for about 3-4 seconds and ask:

    Me: Hey, you mind me getting your opinion on something for just a sec?

    Her: (something to the effect of) Sure/okay/I guess…

    Me: Most people are brought up to think that you shouldn’t talk to strangers, right?

    Her: I guess/I suppose/yea…

    Me: Well then why do you think people come out to public spots like this yet bury their head in their laptop or news paper? I mean everyone here could have easily had coffee at home, yet everyone’s to them self.

    Now depending on her answer you could go one of many ways. It’s an open ended question and something we’ve all thought about at some point but just go with the flow. It’s not threatening, nor indicating that you are coming on to her…just something to ground the conversation so you both feel comfortable and depending on your answer the conversation could digress into a number of threads.

    If she’s not feeling you and simply answers your question very briefly, and/or displays ackward facial expressions then she’s obviously not worth it and probably nothing more than a vacuous cunt. At this point you could simply recover by saying the reason you ask is because your writing a paper on social dynamics or something to that effect.

    Like


  90. 79 – It’s just my way of expressing amusement. Do you want to know why nobody else responded?

    Like


  91. Being the one guy in the room who shows no interest in her will make her think about you all the more.

    Does anyone actually believe this? I’ve seen this theory more than once now.

    My experience is that ignoring a girl generally gets you… ignored.

    When a girl does approach me, it usually seems to be totally spontaneous. Either way, you have a brief window. Either you approach, she approaches, or nothing happens.

    Like


  92. Do you want to know why nobody else responded?

    Simple: because the story was so far off in la-la land that it didn’t merit a response.

    Like


  93. zorgon 92 —

    LoL and yuup.

    Like


  94. Thank God I’m tall, because that scares a good number of men off.

    You sure it’s not your high, plump booty? Most guys couldn’t handle that. But how tall are you anyway?

    I think you’d have to be around 5’11 before you enter “scare them away” territory. For some reason that I don’t understand, a lot of those girls come up to me in the club. Like, 5’10 – 6’0, slim / athletic, and exotic-looking — black, half-black, Caribbean or South American, Pacific Islander (yeah, there are some tall ones who are also slim), etc.

    What’s your take — like, when you do approach guys who are 5’8, why was it?

    I’m not really into the supermodel look, and that’s why I don’t approach them first — it’s not height, just the overall look — but I’m fine if they want to dance. I don’t *dislike* their look either. And not that I’m a leg man, but feeling how long their slender thighs are is a nice new experience.

    Like


  95. @Clio- I don’t like Gemma Ward. I recall you and I debating about Ward’s beauty. I much prefer Lily Cole and Masha Tyelna to Gemma Ward.
    I think Masha is Roissy’s type too.
    http://www.style.com/peopleparties/modelsearch/person4275

    Like


  96. In Pupu’s mind, Clio looks like Grace Kelly.

    Like


  97. Thank God I’m tall, because that scares a good number of men off.

    You sure it’s not your high, plump booty? Most guys couldn’t handle that

    Agnostic, I am 5’9.5

    I guess my booty got you going huh.

    It’s not my booty that makes them think twice. I most men who approach . If that doesn’t do it then the fake out ring that I point to will make them turn and run.

    For some reason that I don’t understand, a lot of those girls come up to me in the club. Like, 5′10 – 6′0

    In my experience, many short men like tall women. They may think you prefer a taller woman. Although, 5’8 isn’t exactly short for a man in America, your just one inch below average. BTW, some tall women like small men. I’ve come across a lot of blk women who like thin men. If I hear one more blk woman say she likes TI’s ultra think frame, I’ll scream.

    Do you have golden colored skin (like some Greeks and Italians)? If so, the women who approach you may think you are part blk or Hispanic

    Like


  98. “http://www.style.com/peopleparties/modelsearch/person4275”

    Blech. She’s got the vacant stare of a Ukrainian famine victim. Scratch that black earth a bit more. There’s bound to be a potato in there somewhere.

    Like


  99. Pupu 96 —

    Where red is also blue, and green, magenta.

    Like


  100. 5’9.5…. I guess if you wear heels, you’re in the “scare away” zone.

    I have pretty pale skin, but it has a gold undertone or whatever — not like Irish pale. But maybe they think I’m part-black or Latin for how I dance? Who knows.

    Your booty is all right, though we’d have to see it again just to be sure.

    Like


  101. @43 Hadron Collider:

    And if she was my kind of girl, she would laugh haughtily and say, “You silly man! Photons have no mass! You can never smash them together!” after which we’d laugh and laugh at the possibility of the Higgs Boson being a component of dark matter.

    Like


  102. No offense Hope, but the sharing music thing?

    G-A-Y

    And commenting on the Mac is just like every dude who walks up and says “Has anyone ever told you look like….{insert famous actress}.” IOW, annoying unless you are able to follow up with an incredibly smooth second line.

    So far I like#59 Draper…(second to the direct approach)… that would make me laugh at least.

    **Others say that Game overcomes her immediate lack of physical attraction.**

    This is absolutely true for me. Not that y’all care. Since my opinion doesn’t count.

    @ #50 12 Stepper? Please don’t ever say that to another latina, ever, unless you are in a Mexican restaurant, and even then….

    Like


  103. Chic,

    How would just a hello suffice? It seems too shiftless and that maybe it’d make the chick suspicious of something.

    Chris if the two of you make eye contact, it’s okay to speak to her. Actually, I prefer a hello to the tight smile that some people give in lieu of a verbal hello.

    If she, your target, says hello with a warm smile-proceed. Don’t say anything stupid to turn her off. If she says hello in a frosty way, cut your losses or start game.

    Maybe if you approach women who you are not attracted to, you will figure out what works. You can also come up with a few polished approaches for different types of women. I would imagine you’ll be more relaxed around a 4 versus 10. With the 4, it won’t be much of a loss for you if she blows you off(no pun). The 3-4 will be so happy for some attention that she won’t pull your head off if you stumble.

    I will honestly say, that I empathize with men when it comes to approaching the opposite sex. It must be very nerve wrecking to put your self out there like that, and have someone smash you to smithereens without a care in the world.

    *BTW I am no advocate of game. I am very afraid of men who use game.

    Like


  104. Affe

    Masha has the big eyed innocent look down to a science. Looking at her, I wouldn’t think she has any idea what a p.enis i.s.

    Like


  105. Doug 99 –

    Pupu finds them getting along on the same wavelength.

    Like


  106. Clio,

    You and I did not agree on Gemma. I was offering up Lily Cole and Masha Tyelna because they are two of the baby faced/alien models whose beauty I admire.

    Like


  107. 105 Pupu:

    Pupu finds them getting along on the same wavelength.

    Yup. 🙂

    Like


  108. I like Stella as a model thought. She is one of my favorites. I wouldn’t consisder Stella or her cousin and fellow top model Erin O’Conor great beauties. I like 80’s beauty along the lines of Cindy Crawford,Stephanie Stemour. Jacquline Smith and Linda Carter were both very gorgeous back in their day.

    Like


  109. Julie
    Well whenever I am this kind of situation I just prefer a guy to stand up, unzip his pants, pull out his erect penis and say, “Suck it bitch.” It works all the time. Yummy.

    😯

    The reason many women are having diffculty finding men who are willing to court them^^^.

    The reason good old fashion 50 buck ST. walkers can’t pay their rent ^^^

    You make it much to easy for them 😦

    Like


  110. The ignore and conquer game works well enough if you know how to use it and have the right personality and approach. Women like a challenge. They are surrounded by men trying to get into their pants 24/7 so if you are somewhat aloof and distant, but too much so, yet still charming and engaging and good looking, and you bide your time, women will come to you. It is not for all or even most guys though and it takes self restraint and delicate sense of timing. But when it works few things turn a woman on more than this. I like to call it the art of “pressureless seduction.” And when it works, it instills in a woman what I like to refer to as MAPD: Mad Pussy Disease. This is when you ignore a woman to the point where she is almost insane with desire for you, and her pussy becomes a screaming banshee of unfulfilled sexual passion waiting for you, and only you, to calm her down. She thinks about you nightly while she masturbates, but only your cock inside of her will calm her down and she knows that and craves that madly. This is at the point where a woman will become almost insane for you, start doing crazy things, etc. At that point you own her. It may sound insane to some here, but trust me, it works, if you are the right kind of man.

    Like


  111. “but NOT too much so” above. I hate proof reading.

    Like


  112. The mistake a lot of you guys are making is in trying too hard to “demonstrate value” through your little quips and gambits. That might work on dumb girls, but to everyone else it’s quite transparent. Girls usually know when you’re making a play.

    It’s true that girls like guys who have great personalities, but only when they sense it is genuine and not activated on the spot for her benefit. You need to break out of that mental trap of seeing her as something you must “win” by “performing” for her. Remember: being overly funny or witty can be its own form of supplication. Another commenter had it right when he talked about ordering your whole life so that you are naturally always a gregarious guy. That way when you are friendly with her it doesn’t look forced. That’s a tall order for most of us here though.

    Also, these types of discussions always get confounded by the existence of Sexual Market Value. If the girl is a 6 and the guy is a 9, he could pick his nose and the girl would still love him. And all the seduction gurus would observe from the sidelines and conclude that picking your nose gets you chicks. Heh. Conversely, if the guy is a 6 and the girl a 9, he could very possibly do everything “right”, and still fail. Such is life.

    Things get interesting when the SMV disparity is not so great. These days, I keep things simple. I go by compliance. This all depends on the ability to read non-verbal signals, which most of the nerds here are horrible at. For example, in that single moment of eye contact, I can often discern how she feels about me, even if she quickly looks away. Looking down is obviously a promising sign of submission, but it’s not the only sign. Sometimes it’s a slight startle response, very subtle. Through experience you start to develop a sense of when the girl is digging you, even if only a little bit. But that little bit is all you need. Think of the story of the guy who had to figure out how to get a thick rope up a castle wall to rescue his princess. He stuck a silk thread to the back of a beetle and sent the beetle climbing. Then he tied a cotton thread to the silk thread. After that was pulled up, he attached the rope. Get it?

    If the eye contact is good, you have greater leeway to be more assertive. A simple “hi” can suffice, but if you want, you can choose to be more witty. If the eye contact was not so good, you have to be careful of not overplaying your hand or you will look beta. Somebody else mentioned the idea of having her watch your stuff while you demonstrate value with the barrista. That’s the idea.

    Now, if the eye contact was good, and you said “hi” or whatever, you apply the same analysis to her reaction to THAT. Again, this sort of perceptiveness can’t be taught, but there it is. Although I’m sure you can tell when a girl is giving you the cold shoulder. I’m not going to get into all the details here, it would take too long. On the other hand, there is something to be said for throwing caution to the wind and being your most outrageous self for the fuck of it, just to see what happens. Do that only if you haven’t gotten ANY signals, however.

    My personal style does imply acceptance of the notion that the women choose the men instead of the other way around. There is some truth to that, but I would also like to disabuse some of you studs out there of the notion that Game can overcome all obstacles. Game is necessary, valid and powerful, but it’s no magic wand.

    Just keepin’ it real.

    Like


  113. One more thing: I am the one who plays hard to get. Women have to earn the right to have me fuck them, and even more so to have me love them. You cannot imagine how many women have told me this was the biggest turn on they had ever experienced. But then again I know I am high quality catch for most women, both in and out of the bedroom, so that helps, to be perfectly honest about it. If you are a natural beta in looks and personality do not try this because it will not work. You have to have the goods to make it work.

    Like


  114. Fabian, what, you like girls that failed quantum electrodynamics? Of course you can smash photons together.

    Like


  115. on September 26, 2008 at 12:15 am Christopher Tracy

    Dude, only thing is, when I try to use Game techniques, I get lost in the shuffle of trying to remember everything and I end up not trying at all. I can’t even kino. It’s too awkward for me. I’m not a very touchy feely person in general, and I feel strange if people just place a casual arm on my shoulder.

    Like


  116. “I am no advocate of game. I am very afraid of men who use game.”

    That’s because somebody used game WRONG on you.

    If you’ve been gamed successfully, you don’t know it till it’s over

    Like


  117. if you are somewhat aloof and distant, but too much so, yet still charming and engaging and good looking, and you bide your time, women will come to you

    And how often does this really happen? To me this sounds like fantasy land. Oh, sure, if you’re a rock star/movie star, but as for the rest of us…

    If you are a natural beta in looks and personality do not try this because it will not work. You have to have the goods to make it work.

    I certainly won’t claim to be a natural alpha — quite the opposite, I’m a recovering [omega, complete dorkwad, social retard — pick your favorite term].

    Do you really think it’s looks that draw in the women? Isn’t personality a more likely bet?

    One of the ideas behind Game, as I see it, is that personality, unlike looks, isn’t something we are entirely stuck with from genetics and childhood. It’s possible to change yourself. Not entirely, but at least to some degree. And if anyone says it’s all genetics and upbringing, I say: BS. If I compare myself today vs. 10 years ago (26 vs. 16), it’s a huge difference.

    The other idea behind Game is that we’re trying to discover what really works, so we can duplicate it. Rather than just saying “some guys are naturals, some guys aren’t, that’s the way it is and we just have to live with it” or “some guys are alphas, some guys are betas”, we’re trying to discover what the differences are so we don’t just have to live with what we “naturally” once were. So, it seems like there have got to be some other missing factors you’re not mentioning here.

    Clearly just acting aloof and disinterested *by itself* isn’t enough. Perhaps for guys who are 9’s/10’s looks-wise, and again the rock star/movie star/politician crowd, but I doubt it for anything below that. Again, my experience is that if you ignore a woman (I mean entirely… not approach at all), she will in the vast majority of cases ignore you. You honestly find that this is not the case for you? (And, might I ask, are you a natural?)

    So there’s got to be some other missing factor that is drawing the women in.

    Like


  118. deal

    Oh you I know. If the guy acts too cool, I don’t want him.

    Like


  119. Christopher Tracy:

    I can’t even kino. It’s too awkward for me. I’m not a very touchy feely person in general, and I feel strange if people just place a casual arm on my shoulder.

    I used to be the same way. Like I was saying in my other post, this stuff really is learnable. If a recovering omega (oh, you have *no* idea just how bad I was… I assure you, worse than your worst nightmares of what omegas are like) like me can do it, anyone can do it.

    It was easy. I just tried it to see what would happen. Simple stuff, really. Touch her shoulder or hand — those are easy ones. Taking her hand, brushing her hair — not right away, but if you don’t get any pushback earlier, sure, just go for it. Etc.

    It’s so amazingly simple that you have to ask yourself “why didn’t I do this before?” Yet until a month or two ago, I *wasn’t* doing this stuff.

    I have never once had a girl react poorly to me if, let’s say, I tapped her shoulder to get her attention when she was looking the other way. Blew me off, yeah, but because of something else, not because of the shoulder tap itself. Just start simple like that.

    Like


  120. Obligatory DA comment: I would probably not bother to talk with her unless she talked to me, and I’d probably be too obsessed with commenting on some blog.

    OTOH, if she had nails or high heel shoes, I’d be like some little pathetic omega male staring at her hands or feet.

    For DA-coco(ice T’s wife)

    She’s would probably fall under the definition of sexually attractive for me, but she suffers from looking like a “skank”, so while she’d be great for a short-term relationship, she doesn’t meet the bar for family (and greater society) approved wife. The last thing that I want is the dirty looks or comments from friends or family members. The current girl is suffering from this problem too, except she isn’t “sexually attractive”…

    When you say petite are you referring to height or build?

    I usually refer to both, usually, short women who are generally thing. Chubby petite girls are okay*, but short and fat don’t make for a good combination.

    *My dark chocolate Caribbean dreamgirl was chubby, but petite…

    Like


  121. No offense Hope, but the sharing music thing?

    G-A-Y

    No offense taken. No one has to use my idea. I was listening to a really girly song at the time I wrote the post, so yes the gay fairies force is strong in this one.

    Like


  122. The rude approaches might intrigue women who perceive themselves as exceptionally attractive. For the rest of us mortals, it would register as ordinary daily rudeness.

    Like


  123. on September 26, 2008 at 1:29 am Christopher Tracy

    #120:

    I really ought to try just a simple tap on the shoulder or something, but I have this fear that woman will look at me strange and will yell “rape!”

    Also, I’m afraid I might execute it so awkwardly that it looks too intentional. I think part of my problem is that I think sequentially. “If I do this, then I need this desired response to pursue, then point A occurs, then point B etc until bed.” It’s frustrating and I don’t really enjoy flirting because I can’t really do it.

    As for the whole aloof thing, it’s why I often fantasize about forgoing my pursuit of an urban planning degree and law school in favor of majoring in film, but that’d be financially disastrous.

    I’ve always been interested in filmmaking, and I think that filmmakers and other artsy folks are the only people with my type of personality who can get away without modifying it to get chicks. It sucks for us normal folks.

    Like


  124. LOL at T’s referencing “When Harry Met Sally” White Guy Overbite On The Dancefloor

    Tupac, all good points. In a way its kinda like reading defences in football, you know what I mean? You kinda have to know what the defence’s tendencies and what not are. The best QB’s aren’t the ones who throw the farthest or run the fastest, thyre the ones who know how to read defences very, very well.

    What I failed to mention earlier, is that unlike men, whose sense of vision is to zero-in on something in a room, most women tend to see the whole room in one sweep, and *then* zero-in. This is why women on the whole can get so freaked out by a dis-shoveled home.

    So, going back to Chuck’s point earlier, I understood immediately what he said, because I would have taken those points into account: we’re in a place where people often meet and hookup. Even in Roissy’s scenario, there’s a couple cuddled up down yonder on the couch. Cafes are known mating grounds areas, so I simply assume that either the client is meeting someone shortly, or has put herself out there *to meet* someone. If she were that serious about getting some work done, she’d have stayed home. This is why I wouldn’t even refer to a computer, because, as Roissy notes in his scenario, its a prop; he uses it as a ruse to scope out potential targets in the place, and you can best believe everyone else is too.

    So, having gotten that out of the way, like you, I too would be scoping out body language signals, “reading defences”.

    I think the main thing that trips up a lot of guys here, from what they’re saying in this thread and elsewhere, is again, their tendency to overthink everything. First off, this ain’t higher math functions or recreating the process to split the atom. Its simply going up toa young lady, introducing yourself, and inviting to share a cup o joe w/ya. Its. That. Simple.

    I agree, “Game” or anything else one can use to give them an edge, while helpful, isn’t a cureall. You can still get shot down, and the more you appoach, the more it’ll happen.

    This takes me to Chic Noir’s point about “10’s” and “4’s” and the rest of it. My thinking has always been to shoot for the skies, because you can always hit the ground. Expect to hear “No”, people in general are kinda programmed to say that, especially females. Learn how to overcome objections. Nothing worth having comes easily, and besides I like a little resistance. Lets me know someone’s home upstairs, if you know what I mean.

    You gotta be QUICK on your feet, be able to improvise and seize on any opening that presents itself-and believe me, there are always openings. You just gotta know what to look for. So long as you gettin’ fever from her, you’re still in the game, so to speak. Gimme a sliver of daylight, that’s all I need. The idea is to steer things to a place you want to go, in my case, havin her join me for refreshments. I’m not even sweating hittin’ it, that’ll come later. Besides, she has to be properly vetted. Mu don’t hit no strange p*ssy.

    Anyway, speaking of height, I’m not much taller than Dave Alexander, though I weigh a good bit more than him-5’8″, 180lbs. I’ve been told that I resemble a Pit-Bull, LOL. At any rate, some of my best gals have been taller than me. One double-joined lass in particular comes to mind, nearly 6′ in stocking feet…and the half-Black/half-Asian sista I spoke of on the Whoring thread was a bit taller than me as well. So I like the challenges. And women like guys who don’t back down from a challenge. In fact, its been my experience that just having pluck and heart will get you over, even when you don’t have a strong “Game”. It takes balls to step up to a woman in a crowded place like that Cafe’ in Roissy’s scenario, when you could very well be swatted down. Me, I adopt Julius Ceasar’s attitude-burn down the bridge once the army’s over it. Do or die.

    Still, as Tupac has said and as I’ve already mentioned, you gots to do things that work for you. You can’t say things and act in ways that don’t fit who you are, because it WILL come off as forced and phony and fake, and that will turn girlfriend off. Now I’m a very assertive person and always have been outgoing and have a never say die attitude towards life, so taking a more direct approach to meeting women feels right to me. In fact, I have little patience for all the cloak and dagger aspects of “game” because I assume that grown assed adults ought to have their heads on straight by now. But that’s just me.

    Now, I have a very good friend of many years who is virtually the opposite of me-in fact, he and Dave Alexander aren’t that far off in terms of basic personality traits-both are very “friendly” w/women and so on, although my buddy definitely gets lots more action than DA. But yea, he’s got that indirect thing downpat, and the number one reason for that is because he’s naturally like that to begin with. Its not an act.

    So, T’s recent remarks about DA being self aware is right on it, and this can be said of guys in general, the need and importance to be self aware. The key to success in life, not just w/women but anything, lay in knowing where your strengths are and playing to them.

    OK, that’s it, for now. Holla back

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  125. Answer: I should turn my laptop around so she can see the monitor with video from bukake.com playing?

    Is that the right?

    Like


  126. Well these things are difficult to explain and but yes they are possible and yes I am a natural. I really don’t want to talk too much about myself though since there a lot of circumstances that go into all this that are impossible to convey in this venue. All I am attempting to do is discuss my own experiences in the light of what else has been said here.

    Two more observations though on all this. First, the greatest weapon a woman has is her pussy. Men want it and she knows men want it and that they will do almost anything to get it. This give her tremendous power over men. But the greatest weapon a man has is to be able to turn around and walk away from pussy whenever he wants. Most women do not know how to handle this all that well, at least younger ones. Unfortunately though most men don’t know how to do this that well, so for the man who can, that gives him even greater abilities and mystique with women. Most women know how quickly most men can turn into whiny little bitches with penises or pathetic little moma’s boys when they don’t get what they want.

    It is strength that women love, among other things: the strength to stand up for yourself, to walk away, to be independent and not needy, as well the strength to love and take care and protect a woman. Too many men today have been castrated beyond hope in this department and so a lot of women despise and have contempt for a lot of modern men.

    But again these are just my own observations and experiences.

    Like


  127. on September 26, 2008 at 1:51 am Christopher Tracy

    125:

    I’m not too dissimilar from DA either. I’m also black, somewhat short, although I’m not slight (5’9″ ish ~170 lbs) and most of my friends are women. Most of my friends are women because they were failed pickup attempts and I just became amicable with them, settling for at least something I guess.

    I have an aloof personality, neither am I aggressive nor very assertive. How does your friend get girls, Mu’Min?

    Like


  128. Zorgon —

    If a recovering omega (oh, you have *no* idea just how bad I was… I assure you, worse than your worst nightmares of what omegas are like)

    Ok this is one time too many!! I MUST protest! There’s getting to be this negative inflation of the term omega. This will not do.

    Omegas are serious and unambiguous losers. They are not merely far too shy to go out and attract girls. That territory belongs to mid and lower betas. They don’t simply have few social graces. They have little to recommend themselves period.

    No professional man is an omega. It’s impossible. Lots of bums are, but certainly not every bum. Most men with decent jobs cannot manage to sink so low as omega. Omega is serious business folks.

    Please!

    Ok, carry on.

    Like


  129. Gotta stand up and testify wrt Racer X’s comments in the last post.

    Looks like its time for another story.

    Years back, I was dating this gal. About my height, straight, jet black hair down to her booty, alabaster white skin, and some SERIOUS knockers. Talk about well endowed, you could see her turning the corner w/o seeing her face for about 3 or 4 seconds, LOL. She happened to be Jewish, btw.

    Anyway, we on the horn busting it up, and she demands to know some things about me. I refuse. She then gives me an ultimatum: if I don’t divulge, she gives Mu no skins.

    Really?, I said.

    Yup, she said.

    “OK.” *Click* (Mu hangs up).

    Wait for it…

    *Ring* (Mu picks up, girly tries to talk, Mu hangs up)

    Wait for it…

    *Ring* (Mu picks up, same deal, Mu hangs up again)

    By now, you get the picture, right?

    *Ring* (Mu picks up receiver and hangs right back up)

    For the next month or so, she tries calling me, calling my gig, calling my mom’s crib, paging me, I took and toss the pager in the drawer, she stops by my gig, I tell the fellas that I aint there, etc, et al.

    Finally, one day while I’m visiting the folks, Ms. Knockers calls, crying hysterically. My mom’s like, Mu’Min PLEASE pickup the phone, the girl’s crying! I wait for a few minutes, and then I get the phone.

    “I’m sorrrrrry!”, she sobs.

    I tell her that is she ever, ever even fixes her mouth to threaten me again, I will make it my business to get as far away from her as humanly possible.

    Ms. Knockers ends up being on of thee wettest women Mu’s ever had-and Mu’s had quite a few.

    Just wanted to stand up and testify. Speak on it, Racer X. Speak on it.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  130. ^^^

    Sound like my type.

    Like


  131. I’m actually smaller than you, 5’8 and 140 lbs. My brother is worse off at 5’4 and 125 lbs…

    Most of my friends are women because they were failed pickup attempts and I just became amicable with them, settling for at least something I guess.

    Wellesley Queen and Jewish Queen were females that I met in class out of sheer conversation, and the friendships developed from that point with romantic interest on my part developing later on. In Jewish Queen’s case, it went away once she stopped talking to me, and for the Wellesley Queen, the feelings were on the wane when I started banging Canadian Mistress, but they finally petered out once she called me beta and explicitly stated that she wants an alpha male. Eventually, I figured that I was never going to be good enough for her, and I became de facto bitch in exchange for hoping to be around somebody who was smart and going somewhere. Canadian Mistress and I would have stayed friends had her boyfriend not caught us fucking in front of his house in my car…

    In contrast, Haitian girl wanted me, but I pushed her to the friend zone because I thought she was ugly. We’re no longer friends. Despite things working out and the girl kissing me on a bus, Virgin Girl was just too fat for my own tastes, and I she didn’t measure up to either Wellesley Queen or Canadian Mistress, but we remained friends. I suspect the new girl is probably going to fall under that category. She just doesn’t measure up to Wellesley Queen or Virgin Girl…

    Like


  132. Christopher Tracy:

    I have this fear that woman will look at me strange and will yell “rape!”

    Nothing remotely close to that has ever happened to me.

    I think Roosh said in his book that the worst that ever happened to him on an approach was a girl punching him in the face? Out of how many approaches? (I would guess over a thousand?) And his line was something like “wow, you look drunk!” You can be shot down, but nothing really “bad” is likely to ever happen.

    I mean, I’ve gotten the “my boyfriend is right over there” response as the first words out of her mouth a good number of times, but it’s never said in anger, only mild annoyance.

    Also, I’m afraid I might execute it so awkwardly that it looks too intentional.

    Ehhh, whatever. It probably looks intentional when I do it, but so what? Better than not having her hear what you’re about to say (which I’m finding is *quite* irritating… it’s a wasted approach).

    Like


  133. Seriously, I wouldn’t know what to do in Roissy’s scenario. Most likely I’d do nothing and later regret my inaction.

    Like


  134. Mu’Min 129 — stories like that I believe. A guy has to stand up for himself. I wouldn’t have acted that way a few years ago, but now? Threats/ultimatums? Goodbye. Annoying/disrespectful/bitchy behavior that’s pissing me off? Goodbye. Etc. I think we’re all agreed on that.

    But that’s after you’ve already gotten her attention. I’m talking about at the very beginning, when you haven’t even spoken to her yet. At that stage, you can either (A) approach her or (B) hope that she will approach you. (A) seems more likely to succeed.

    Like


  135. on September 26, 2008 at 2:45 am Christopher Tracy

    DA,

    All of those names you’ve given those women in your life are damned confusing.

    These are examples of my omeganess:

    I’ve got three girls from my old high school coming to visit me tomorrow and will spend the night. One of the girls was my first (and only) girlfriend from when I was 15/16. But it’s highly doubtful that I will get anything sexual from any of them.

    I’m also good friends with a white girl who admitted to me that she’s a sex addict and would have no problem if I made a move on her, but I’m just too damn scared to do anything. I tried to adopt an aggressive personality which entailed sending her lewd text messages (“I wanna f**k you against a wall” etc) but I think that just ended up pissing her off.

    Like


  136. I’d shit my pants and throw feces at her.

    Like


  137. @136 Christopher Tracy

    Personally I see you “alpha/game males” as huge fucking losers. Especially the ones “learning the game” and spouting off your little quotes and theory. You always seem to be adopting different personalities. I’ve always believed if you have to change who you are to get the attention of a woman, you lose. Plain and simple.

    One thing I’ve noticed from reading Roissy’s webpage (and the comments especially) is it seems to me that many “students of the game” are hyper-overanalyzers (yes, that is redudant, but you guys overanalyze SO much) and seem to think/feel/need extraordinary structure in terms of “what to do” in order to be able to function.

    A good friend started hanging out with some game guys called Hypnotica, Johny Porno and some long haired loser named Steve last year. Who knows how they met, probably through their mixer, but he embodies the same characteristics of so many “students of the game.” Hyperanalyze every situation, try to have a complex matrix of “if-then-else” scenarios and make a joke out of their dignity by approaching practically every woman they can see, thinking it is a numbers game. He explained some stupid theory that boiled down to making yourself look like a jackass to get attention of a woman, like how a peacock would, and he also showed me this cube game about 2 years ago, and it was ridiculously stupid.

    If you fuck up trying to bang a sex addict you honestly have to question to yourself what fuck you are doing wrong.

    Like


  138. 137 Kick a Bitch

    That’s just ’cause you’re a romantic.

    138

    Bingo !

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_analysis

    Like


  139. Christopher Tracy is not a game male. He’s kind of a bitch, actually.

    No one has exes who wouldn’t sleep with them given the right moment. An ex who doesn’t feel it for you is just an ex you dumped too late.

    So yeah, punish the weak-ass beta. But don’t confuse that with real game. In person, the two are more different than you could imagine.

    From your tone, 138, I’m guessing you’re a bitter lady but girls don’t use words like “if-then-else” so…. omega? Who else could be jealous of a beta with ambition?

    Like


  140. chic: It takes me a bit to open up because I am very afraid of strange men.

    Is that true of how you appear to men, chic? I imagine the opposite is true. And at 5′ 9.5″, you’re taller than half the male population. I would think strange men are more afraid of you than you are of them.

    The reason I ask is that a friend has recently challenged my characterization of myself as a “nebbish” to her. Part of the reason she doesn’t believe me is my online persona, which I admit is perhaps not entirely shy and retiring. 🙂 But, it occurs to me that I might also be mistaken about my fleshie face too, which may be much more apparently outgoing and extraverted than I feel inside.

    I just can’t see you coming across in any way as a scared mousy type. More just as this stunning tall black woman making all the men go adfkajrareqt[qw98t09sdlkm when they look at you…

    In three words: In. Timi. Dating.

    Patrick

    Like


  141. I’ve always believed if you have to change who you are to get the attention of a woman, you lose. Plain and simple.

    If I take this statement and replace “get the attention of a woman” (which I would hope is a secondary goal) with the broader concept of “improve your life”, you’ve just stated nearly the exact opposite of my philosophy on life.

    I believe in self-improvement. Everyone can change themselves for the better.

    Are we just to resign ourselves to failure (in whatever aspect of life you want to pick — it doesn’t have to be women) if we weren’t born with innate ability?

    I was never naturally athletic. I was always in the bottom 10% of my age group in terms of athletic ability. Now I’m likely in the top 10-20%. I changed. I changed my eating and my exercise habits. I lost weight and added muscle mass. I would call that winning, not losing.

    I was never naturally social. Probably undiagnosed Asperger’s. I’ve been trying to change that for some time, and have made a great deal of progress. Again, I would call that winning, not losing.

    Of course I have my natural strengths, too. They just happened to be math and computers. Trouble is, math and computers don’t get a guy laid.

    Like


  142. @140

    no, I’m a very late twenties single, successful male. maybe I’ve missed the mark when I say “alpha/game student” but what I mean by that is the sheer number of these kids “spouting game theory.” Seems to get under my skin; especially after watching and motivating an (ex) good friend of mine to get himself out there and due to his shortcomings with women watching him then turn to “game” and which does him no fucking favors.

    A lot of these “gamers” are really just picking up scraps. Bars aren’t great places to meet women, yet they’re out every fucking monday night. All flash and no substance. They overanalyze, overthink, and their goal of chasing women takes over their lives that they have no substance, depth, or interests to them. But hey.. Platinum was banging last tuesday night!

    Like


  143. @142 zorgon

    that’s different. improving yourself is one thing, and I firmly believe in that.

    changing yourself to attract women, under the thinly veiled excuse to “improve yourself” means you’re a huge fucking loser in my books.

    Like


  144. @140 (again) Draper.

    I re-read your comment.. it’s late and I only skimmed your note.

    To address your last part, I have no jealousy towards “betas” nor do I even care about this whole “alpha” “beta” “whatever” classification. I don’t even know what the fuck an “omega” is.

    I started reading this website out of sheet curiosity, and while Roissy is an excellent writer, I suspect an overwhelming majority of his followers are nowhere near his level of “game” and his followers are just deluding themselves.

    It’s not jealousy, I just thing the whole thing is stupid and cannot believe some of the things these “gamers” do and take themselves seriously to get the ladies (and 98/100 times fail in the process). Reading that Chris’ comments just boiled over a “I cannot believe you are fucking serious” reaction I suppose.

    Like


  145. on September 26, 2008 at 4:49 am Christopher Tracy

    Well, I never said I wasn’t a loser. I consider myself the black Holden Caulfield. Neither do I think that changing yourself to get a woman is bad. Lets face it. My personality traits are not those which a female would find desirable. If I want to get laid, I’ve got to change essential characteristics within me.

    Like


  146. changing yourself to attract women, under the thinly veiled excuse to “improve yourself” means you’re a huge fucking loser in my books.

    I don’t get this. If you can’t attract the type of women you want or any women at all, you can’t attempt to change yourself or else you’re a loser? What about if you can’t attract a job you want or the type of friends you want or can’t get on the type of sports team you want or admission into the types of colleges you want? Would changing yourself be bad in those scenarios too? And if not, why is it okay in those scenarios but not okay for getting women? Are you saying companionship with the opposite sex ranks below college, career, and athletics? What’s a guy supposed to do, just deal with the cards he’s been dealt in terms of women and settle for a dating life that doesn’t satisfy him.

    One thing I never get is why wanting to improve yourself with women is supposed to make you a loser, but other forms of self-improvement is okay. Now if you just disagree with HOW the Game guys are going about changing themselves to impress women, I can respect that. But if you mean changing yourself to impress women is automatically loser behavior no matter how you go about it, that’s just plain wrong.

    Like


  147. @147

    jesus christ, you guys are just arguing semantics, and not the general idea of what I was trying to say. had no idea everyone would dwell over every little word

    let me further qualify this. I think guys who change themselves with the sole reason “to get girls” are fucking losers. the reason why is because often HOW they go about changing themselves is questionable, they often try to cut as many corners as possible (makes you wonder perhaps their shortcomings were sewed by themselves) and often are looking for quick fixes.

    So I left out the “how.” but it’s guys who change themselves to meet women, where meeting women is the NUMBER #1 GOAL and women are on their brain, motivating this change a great majority of the time. Those sames dudes are over-analyzing, over thinking, constantly theorizing, which gets me back to the fact I think they’re of little to no substance.

    I cannot believe I’ve even bothered to discuss this, although I take no issue at any of you. Nothing wrong with good discussion; I just cannot believe I am discussing this topic.

    Like


  148. I cannot believe I’ve even bothered to discuss this, although I take no issue at any of you. Nothing wrong with good discussion; I just cannot believe I am discussing this topic.

    So I take it there’s a gun to your head on the other side of that computer forcing you to comment repeatedly on something supposedly beneath you? 😉

    Like


  149. If she’s interested, she will keep on looking. Then I walk on over and talk about food, movie, and music, and make sure to add some kino and smiles.

    If she doesn’t look back, she ain’t interested, and I don’t have the game level to win over the girl who ain’t interested. Especially since there are tons of girls who are.

    Like


  150. A lot of these “gamers” are really just picking up scraps.

    True, but game works just as well to attract quality women.

    Bars aren’t great places to meet women

    Game works just as well outside the bar.

    Like


  151. I think guys who change themselves with the sole reason “to get girls” are fucking losers.

    So, if you have only this specific weakness in your life, but the rest of your life is pretty successful, you are supposed to just sit back and do nothing.

    Like


  152. okay, post #150 epitomizes what I’m talking about.

    just be yourself man. enough with this PUA, kino, fupa, attraction stage 3i2493234.b7, quoting some famous gamer, neg neg neg, alpha, delta, omega, gamma, attraction phase 19334.eieio19, pushback, talking about these baby steps you take and what you’re now down, neg neg neg, along with these pre-formulated routines and plans.

    Talking to women is not rocket science guys, jesus guys. just be yourself and don’t overthink it so much.

    Like


  153. hi i am a new user.i am kumar

    Like


  154. Whatever you want to do, just do it. Don’t waste time reflecting on what she might respond to what you might have said or done.

    Like


  155. I am so not into men who need to remind themselves to act when the ideal girl shows up right in front of their faces.

    If you see something you want, your first physical instinct should be to go for it; if it takes an intellectual realization that you’ll regret not talking to the woman, and if your course of action following that realization doesn’t come naturally, it’s a sign of insecurity.

    It could also be a sign perhaps that underneath it all, you are repressing your true feelings: that you actually felt more physically drawn to the dude snuggling with his girl next to you than with the ideal-girl-prototype you came up with to convince yourself you’re into breasts.

    Like


  156. My favorite thing to get a girl interested after an introduction though is asking her a question – something innocuous like what she’s working on or what she’s drinking, and then generally regardless of her answer saying something like “Oh, so you’re one of THOSE people.”

    never good to start with an “interview style question”. you would be much better off using the “oh, so you’re one of those people” as your opener.
    this way she would have NO CLUE what you were talking about, and, especially if you’re smirking in That Knowing Way, she would really, really, really want to know.
    you could keep this open loop open for a while:
    “you know what they say about girls with macbooks” – and then don’t tell her what “they” say.

    jon #25

    I’d walk up to her, say hi, find out what she was working on, and then tell her I’ll do it for her in half the time so we could go for a walk over to my place to throw pieces of warm apple meringue pie at each other and then run through the sprinklers to clean off, after which we’d lie on the grass making sweet love all night long while staring at the shooting stars going by.

    awesome.
    this is very jlaix-esque.

    Like


  157. pigfucker! fucking slashes!
    shit!

    My favorite thing to get a girl interested after an introduction though is asking her a question – something innocuous like what she’s working on or what she’s drinking, and then generally regardless of her answer saying something like “Oh, so you’re one of THOSE people.”

    never good to start with an “interview style question”. you would be much better off using the “oh, so you’re one of those people” as your opener.
    this way she would have NO CLUE what you were talking about, and, especially if you’re smirking in That Knowing Way, she would really, really, really want to know.
    you could keep this open loop open for a while:
    “you know what they say about girls with macbooks” – and then don’t tell her what “they” say.

    jon #25

    I’d walk up to her, say hi, find out what she was working on, and then tell her I’ll do it for her in half the time so we could go for a walk over to my place to throw pieces of warm apple meringue pie at each other and then run through the sprinklers to clean off, after which we’d lie on the grass making sweet love all night long while staring at the shooting stars going by.

    awesome.
    this is very jlaix-esque.

    Like


  158. changing yourself to attract women, under the thinly veiled excuse to “improve yourself” means you’re a huge fucking loser in my books.

    Would you rather be right, or be happy?

    Like


  159. I would go home an share my frustration on my weblog, of course (;

    Like


  160. If I take this statement and replace “get the attention of a woman” (which I would hope is a secondary goal) with the broader concept of “improve your life”, you’ve just stated nearly the exact opposite of my philosophy on life.

    I believe in self-improvement. Everyone can change themselves for the better.

    Are we just to resign ourselves to failure (in whatever aspect of life you want to pick — it doesn’t have to be women) if we weren’t born with innate ability?

    I was never naturally athletic. I was always in the bottom 10% of my age group in terms of athletic ability. Now I’m likely in the top 10-20%. I changed. I changed my eating and my exercise habits. I lost weight and added muscle mass. I would call that winning, not losing.

    I was never naturally social. Probably undiagnosed Asperger’s. I’ve been trying to change that for some time, and have made a great deal of progress. Again, I would call that winning, not losing.

    Of course I have my natural strengths, too. They just happened to be math and computers. Trouble is, math and computers don’t get a guy laid.

    A very admirable philosophy, Zorgon!

    I find that self improvement is not only satisfying through the changes in one’s life, but also through the exploration of the nature of man and of self.

    Are you currently working on anything specific?

    Like


  161. I like the #15 comment.

    Making eye contact and even smiling at someone else at a coffee shop can simply mean “you’re in my line of sight, I can’t help but look at you” and “I’m having a good day, I’d smile at a giraffe.”

    If you like the look of her and want to know what she sounds like or simply that you can strike up a conversation, aside from remarking on what she’s wearing, doing or how she’s gesturing, you could ask her if such & such a page is loading for her b/c it isn’t for you (after a few minutes have passed by).

    It’s a harmless question.

    Like


  162. Dude, your ideal girl is a pale skinny waif who goes to coffee shops? I just lost ALL respect for you. What a shame….

    Like


  163. Dude, your ideal girl is a pale skinny waif who goes to coffee shops? I just lost ALL respect for you.

    Pale: good. I like the northern look, preferrably with dark hair for a nice facial contrast.

    Skinny: good, I prefer skinny to fat, big-boned, or too thick. Athletic is nice, but slender is better. Bag ‘o Coat Hangers, no the other hand, not so good.

    Waif: good, as long as she’s not a neurotic. The waif type is better than a mannish or vulgar girl

    Goes to coffee shops: possible red flag — SWPL

    Like


  164. Cannot BELIEVE how very many objections to Game parse as “Don’t you people know your place?” Yes, it’s over-analyzing, that’s because it makes implicit processes explicit for the benefit of those who can’t do it instinctively. I’m also mulling over the idea that some people misinterpret Game as something that will create attraction out of thin air, and place all their hopes in that. It doesn’t necessarily help that most gurus (Mystery, Herbal, Swingcat, Juggler, and all the psedonymous-mass) were stereotypically good-looking guys to start with, and don’t know what’s due to their looks and what’s due to The Game.

    Like


  165. it seems to me that many “students of the game” are hyper-overanalyzers (yes, that is redudant, but you guys overanalyze SO much)

    I’m a hyper-overanalyzer. I’ve been called on it by people in my personal life. In my opinion it is not so bad, unless one uses it for malicious purposes. I more prefer analyzing things on a meta level, not on an observational level, because I perceive the real, physical, meatspace world through more of an artistic eye, and the virtual, verbal, emotional worlds through an analytical lens.

    If you’ve ever read Dune, the way the Bene Gesserit and mentats perceive the world is simply sheer brilliance. They are humans trained as if they are computers, minds developed to staggering heights of cognitive and analytical ability. They are aware of all the data available, consciousness honed to razor sharpness. They take in every sensory input, every sound, every movement, every detail, and record it in their mind for later computation. It’s an immense skill.

    But there is also something to be said for throwing analysis to the wind:

    Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that makes sense. But the real universe is always one step beyond logic.

    Like


  166. Eurosabra,
    At the risk of coming off like a stompdown Metrosexual, I’d have to disagree w/the “pros” looks, at least two of them.

    Mystery, from the pics I’ve seen of him, doesn’t appear to me to be that different from most rank and file White guys one would find in the USA, although Mystery’s a Canadian.

    And no ones gonna accuse Neil Strauss of having classic leading man looks.

    And I think that’s one of the major poins of “Game”, that one need not be a “leading man” physically in order to do well w/the ladies. Of course, self improvement matters and one should always put their best foot forward. But to attempt to make to be more genetics than skill is I think a bit rash.

    Anyway, my point about overthinking things is that so very often in life, decisions are made and executed in a split second; one simply cannot analyze to death every decision. If there’s one thing that women don’t like its an indecisive man. To be thoughtful, yea. Even calculating. But Paralysis of Analysis? Oh no.

    For my part, I think the great thing about this blog, and the books in general, is that they get fellas to think in new ays about the whole Boy meets Girl thing.

    And new ideas leads to new horizons.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  167. @165

    Totally agree. Game forces women (me anyway) to pay attention/talk to someone who I normally would glance over BECAUSE I am not immediately physically attracted.

    I really like guys with a sarcastic sense of humor. Unfortunately, unless he is wearing a badge, I can’t tell this about someone just by looking. At some point, you learn to get past a person’s physical presentation and listen to what they have to say for a minute and see if they have something to offer.

    For a good-looking guy – the mythical 10’s – this isn’t as important because like you said, their looks are really the door opener.

    Like chicnoir said, I don’t envy y’all having to approach.

    Like


  168. I’d get up and ask her for a bailout

    Like


  169. I’d ask her if she does “lap-top” dances

    Like


  170. it’s guys who change themselves to meet women, where meeting women is the NUMBER #1 GOAL and women are on their brain, motivating this change a great majority of the time. Those sames dudes are over-analyzing, over thinking, constantly theorizing, which gets me back to the fact I think they’re of little to no substance.

    I agree with you that it seems like an unworthy goal, but sex is a big motivator. For many young men it closely follows air, water, food, and survival. The men who over-analyze, over-think, constantly theorize and have trouble meeting women can be and often are men of substance.

    Socially inept men (let’s just take David Alexander and Christopher Tracy as examples) tend to be highly intelligent, skilled in technical, academic or other ways that do not appeal to vast swaths of consumerist-culture people. They will not be “winners” in the financial or sexual markets, because substance is no longer valued over flash and surface gloss.

    These men are clearly above average in mental aptitude, and I know many more such men since my usual hangouts are nerd central. They need companionship, too, but they are competing in a field against more socially aware men who are also after the cute, attractive and beautiful women.

    They are not attracted to the nerdy women who share their interests, even if there may be attraction from the other direction (David Alexander has mentioned this). Friendship and personality compatibility make a long-term relationship smooth, but most men tend to focus on the physical.

    In a country and time where there is much emphasis placed on presentation and looks, where weight and obesity issues are rampant, and when porn and easy sex offer more than what the nerdy girls can, it’s all understandable. The lamentable part of “game” is not that it can offer a way for a boy to meet a girl, but that it is often viewed as a way for the boy to use a girl as a means to an end.

    The connections people make are often fleeting, like a momentary monetary transaction that come to an abrupt end. Whether or not game is involved is irrelevant to that, of course. Game seems to be just another piece of the puzzle falling into place.

    Like


  171. I would start asking her if she likes it up the ass then show her this video on my laptop: http://www.tube8.com/anal/hillary-scott-anal/52170/

    Like


  172. @#171 Hope
    Very well put…

    Like


  173. Good post, Hope!

    You are clearly a keen observer.

    Like


  174. Hope, even Nerdy girls have their pic of guys. I know a couple at work environments who have a boyfriend and two or three guys on a string.

    It’s a numbers game. Any nerdy girl who half-way attractive in a male dominated work environment will have many guys around her.

    Like


  175. What Whiskey said about “even Nerdy girls have their pick of guys.

    And, not everyone believes in monogamy; not everyone wants to settle down/domesticate. Some folks just want to spend time with people who fascinate and make them laugh.

    Like


  176. Hope 171:

    They will not be “winners” in the financial or sexual markets, because substance is no longer valued over flash and surface gloss.

    I’d remove “financial” — I’ve done fine financially in life so far. Thinking logically about money (wait… you mean I *can’t* spend more than I earn year after year?) helps.

    But yes, none of this stuff will help as far as sex goes. Put it this way: with the coffeeshop girl, I would *never* open with “So I was reading this Federal Reserve publication about intertemporal income variability…” I have personally found Federal Reserve publications to be interesting reading. I think I’m in the minority.

    They are not attracted to the nerdy women who share their interests

    In my specific field, computers, the “nerdy women” are basically nonexistent. My former workplace was 98-99% male. My current workplace is just me, so that would make it 100% male. My college classes in my department were probably 75% male, but (1) I’m not attracted to Asian women and (2) I was far too clueless at the time to go after the rest. Heck, I did not go on a single “date” during 4 years of college. (I did have a few in high school, although they went nowhere.)

    There are attractive nerdy women. They’re just generally not computer nerds.

    I probably could have gotten myself some nerdy women without a ton of trouble during college had I had my act together, but I was still deep in the depths of omegatude at the time.

    Like


  177. Are you currently working on anything specific?

    My main two self-improvement projects right now are exercise (I’m doing more lifting now, I lost plenty of weight and need to bulk up) and Game (call me a loser if you want, I don’t care). There are a few background ones like piano.

    Like


  178. on September 26, 2008 at 5:23 pm Christopher Tracy

    171:

    “They will not be ‘winners’ in the financial or sexual markets, because substance is no longer valued over flash and surface gloss.”

    I disagree. My primary reason for living is so that I acquire as much money as possible and then buy my way into pussy and happiness. I’m not so far gone as to totally eschew material goods in pursuit of some intellectual goal. I’m far from that.

    I’m actually so obsessed with money that I piss a lot of people off about it. I’ve been investing in stocks since I was 16, and I’ve been an avid follower of the market since I was 8. Money has always shaded my perspective on life.

    I’m fairly confident that in a few years, I can be a winner in the financial market The social market is another story.

    Like


  179. 171 – Hope: Interesting thoughts from a female perspective.

    There is a difference between game and PUA techniques. PUA techniques are an approximation to game. Game is just another word for the mating dance that is required to get a women wet. Some guys and almost all women have it naturally. PUA techniques came about by reverse engineering this natural process.

    The implication is that the nerdy guys who otherwise would have remained sterile can participate in the game by learning PUA techniques. There are pros and cons to this.

    Your point is that these guys are actually worthy dating material. In that sense women can get attracted to guys who they wouldn’t be otherwise. Women who complain “I seem to fall for jerks all the time” are now able to meet guys who might actually be looking for girlfriends and will treat them well.

    The downside should be obvious. As long as PUA techniques are replacing actual game, these guys are selling themselves under false pretense.

    There is a natural division between alphas and betas. A guy pretending to be alpha is a problem for girls and they have evolved mechanisms to deal with that situation. Her female game consists of testing guys for their inner strength and alpha status. While it is possible to pass these tests for a certain amount of time, things can get ugly if he starts failing after a while.

    This is the reason why some females despise game. They were looking for “procurers”/”jerks”, and they end up with “providers”/”losers”. The reason that women test their men so badly is that pretending to have alpha status is deep betrayal in evolutionary terms. Women have a much harder time finding a true alpha. They are surrounded by betas who would be happy to help them provide for a family.

    I can see another plus side, though.

    Another problem is that guys typically run through a misogynistic phase after initial PUA successes. However, their nerdiness sometimes kicks in and they become truly fascinated by sexuality, game and the complexity of the female psyche. Moreover, the crotches of PUA techniques can become implicit competence and (some of) these betas transform into actual alpha guys.

    Like


  180. Anonymous 153:

    just be yourself man

    “Just be yourself” has got to be the worst advice I’ve ever gotten in dealing with women. Being yourself may work for some guys. Experience has proven time and time again that it does *not* work for me. If I was still being the “myself”-that-I-was-10-years-ago, chances are I would be well on my way to becoming a 40-year-old virgin. Well, that’s certainly no longer in the cards.

    Now, look, I’m not going to pretend that I’m someone I’m not. That’s not cool. Ultimately, a girl has to like me for who I am, or else there’s no point. This is just a way to open doors. It’s a matter of marketing. I am not going to go out of my way to advertise certain qualities of myself, say, “current favorite TV program is Battlestar Galactica.” Instead, if the topic of TV were to come up, I’d more likely say that I don’t watch much TV (true) and find most TV mind-numbingly stupid (true). That is, flip it around from “I’m a dorky sci-fi fan” to a screening frame of “if you’re the kind of girl who sits at home and watches TV all the time, you’re not my type.”

    And while I’ve picked up material from Game sources, I don’t use the stuff that I don’t see fitting me. For example, when I read Roosh’s book there was a lot of material where I immediately said, “Wow! I can totally see myself saying that! That sounds like something I would actually say, rather than some lame canned line.” There are other Game writers (Mystery… ahem) whose material does not seem to fit me at all.

    If I were to “just be myself”, I would sit at home on the computer all the time. I did that for quite a few years.

    Now, I can go out and in the space of a few hours talk to more women than I might have once talked to in a whole month, perhaps a whole year. I’m not just repeating canned lines and routines; in some cases it’s just a genuine regular social interaction. Is all this natural for me? Heck *NO*. My brain was clearly *not* wired for me to be an outgoing, social person. But if you push yourself past your limits enough times, then all of the sudden those limits don’t seem like such a big deal any more.

    Better advice than “be yourself”, I would say, is “be the yourself that you want to be, not just the yourself that you are.”

    If being the yourself that you are gets you women, then that’s great advice for getting women. But then, that would mean you are a “natural” — which I’m not.

    Like


  181. on September 26, 2008 at 5:47 pm Christopher Tracy

    Zorgon,

    Your last comment was pretty insightful. I think the biggest problem I have is finding material that fits my personality. People have said that I can be witty and charming when I’m not trying to be sexually brazen and harsh like those guys in the Game book.

    I dunno, I just have a hard time trying to parlay my friendships with girls into real sexual relationships.

    Like


  182. Agreed. Anyone who gives “just be yourself” as advice is worthless when it comes to giving you help. It basically translates to “I have no useful advice to give you, but am too proud to admit that, so I’m going to give you an empty platitude.”

    Like


  183. I enjoy dating nerdy guys, provided that they look decent, are sexy and have learned good enough social skills. We can then read fantasy together and play boardgames, and they’ll fit in with my friends too who happen to have a hint of nerdiness anyway.

    I think it is very positive that nerdy guys work out, get better haircuts and learn some social skills. Intelligence is good to have in the gene pool and I value intelligence in a conversational partner. But it requires social skill to channel intelligence into an enriching conversation. Coming on to me with an algebra equation is not going to cut it. I do see value in applying raw talent to everyday situations and presenting it in a way that touches people emotionally.

    That does not mean that every nerdy guy must spend countless hours on activities that help him market himself or that he must become a copy of the smooth jock or manager.
    If he values doing research, playing computer games, reading fantasy and other nerdy pursuits, he will be happiest spending most of his time on that. But by adding a little balance to his schedule and this to his inventory of knowledge and skills, he will have a more varied life which will likely maximize his happiness.
    Spending a bit of his time on the gym, reading about human interactions, taking a girl out for a drink and organising a day of volunteering with the office can help him be a more balanced man. A man who can present his ideas and fight for his dreams, a man who can hold the interest of a good wife who can support him socially and a man who stays healthy beyond his retirement.

    I’m willing to bet that men like that can also mean more to the world of science than the extreme of the unwashed, out of shape, unhealthy supernerd who is basically sacrificing himself to his work.

    Like


  184. Christopher Tracy: Well, there’s the “entertainer”/”comedian” trap. An entertainer is just a friend, or worse.

    One time recently I had a chat with a girl that was rapidly heading downhill. She was telling me to go to the dance floor and “show off my moves.” She would come over there too, she said, if my moves were good enough. I said no. She started making fun of me: the reason you’re not is because your moves aren’t any good. This pushed me over the edge. Without even thinking about it — totally unscripted and unplanned — I shot back at her: “Look, I’m not here to entertain you” in an annoyed/angry tone of voice.

    It’s almost creepy when this “Game” stuff works. And boy, did that work. That shut her up real fast. Her attitude was greatly improved afterwards.

    I’m sure it helped that it was a spontaneous outburst on my part. But in my pre-studying-Game days, I never would have said something like that in the first place.

    Like


  185. “to parlay my friendships with girls into real sexual relationships.”

    This is putting the cart in front of the horse.

    Like


  186. T 183: the advice people *should* have given me 10 years ago was “get your fucking act together and SHAPE UP. You need to change your clothes, change your appearance, go to the gym, look at people when they talk to you, find some interests other than math and computers and Star Trek and role-playing games, and most importantly, change your fucked-up ATTITUDE.”

    Unfortunately, I probably wouldn’t have taken that advice very well.

    Like


  187. Coming on to me with an algebra equation is not going to cut it.

    Dang. So you’re telling me that this whole time I’ve been passing girls notes saying “XX + XY = ____”, I’ve been doing it all wrong?

    Like


  188. Dang. So you’re telling me that this whole time I’ve been passing girls notes saying “XX + XY = ____”, I’ve been doing it all wrong?

    No, I’m still grateful for when you helped me cheat on that maths exam.

    Like


  189. I’m fairly confident that in a few years, I can be a winner in the financial market The social market is another story.

    About the financial markets comment, it is from my own observation of men who work diligently, have a lot of technical skill, but are passed over for promotion or managerial positions time and time again. Meanwhile some smooth talking corporate type with the right social connections and schmoozing skills gets the job they want.

    These guys, the “goodie two shoes” type in the workplace, who do not show tremendous drive or upward advancement desire, perhaps due to low confidence, hardly ever make it into the financial stratosphere. Sometimes even if they are ambitious and confident, if they do not play by the right rules, they do not get to advance either. They are comfortable enough for sure, but they are not the “winners.”

    Those who have exceeding success financially are the exceptions, rather than the rule. You might of course succeed, because success comes by hard work and ambition, but the men I was talking about are just “stable” guys. By definition, I suppose, that will be the case, since most models of wealth distribution can be approximated by a pyramid structure.

    It’s a numbers game. Any nerdy girl who half-way attractive in a male dominated work environment will have many guys around her.

    Yes, the key word here being attractive. I know unattractive nerdy girls who do not have many guys around them. The guys who look at them twice think of them more as tickets to an easy lay rather than long-term potential material. Even the nerdy guys I hang out with will have many harsh words for an unattractive girl. These girls are invisible unless they make themselves sexually available. And as I said, I know some 20+ year old virgin girls, who are not attractive like the Elizabeth who posts here.

    This is the reason why some females despise game. They were looking for “procurers”/”jerks”, and they end up with “providers”/”losers”.

    That’s not the reason in every case, at least it does not seem so. Many women want providers who are stable and loving, but they do not like the idea of every man going after the “hottest” girls and possibly getting success thanks to PUA and game. They perceive that they will be left in the cold in such a scenario.

    Those girls could of course try to improve their own appearances, but for a lot of them, just as for a lot of nerdy guys, failure breeds more failure. They try to diet which does not work, or they try to make themselves more sexually available which invites mockery, and so on. Bombarded by images of gorgeous, petite and air-brushed hotties everywhere, they sometimes just give up. A lot of women are in fact very self-conscious.

    It is very easy for a girl to get sex any time she wants, and though this is enough for a lot of men, many ugly girls want to procure a long-term and deep commitment with love from a good man. In a more competitive sexual market where men are learning “game,” what some girls fear from game is that she will just be used for her body. Or worse, men won’t even pursue her at all, but rather go after the girls who seem to already have their pick of men.

    This is not to say that the nerdy girls have it worse than the nerdy men. They might, however, become very upset that the men seem to have something (“game” or “PUA” teachings) that they can do to “reach for the stars,” whereas they must remain perpetually in obscurity. Even semi-attractive girls might also be fearful that the man she loves will go for a prettier girl with his game skills. These very things like a guy having girls on the side, etc. have been discussed on this blog and other pick-up/game blogs.

    Like


  190. I enjoy dating nerdy guys, provided that they look decent, are sexy and have learned good enough social skills.
    I like handsome guys, who make me wet and who have high social status – even if they are intelligent

    We can … fantasy together and play …games
    He should be a great lover, too.

    they’ll fit in with my friends too
    Actually, there should be more than one of these guys. But if my friends don’t like them, they’re done.

    I think it is very positive that nerdy guys work out, get better haircuts and learn some social skills.
    It’s so great if guys do stuff for girls, just because they have a pussy.

    Intelligence is good to have in the gene pool
    Just not necessarily in my immediate family. After a all, a handsome, “sexy”, confident, dominant, socially successful guy will promise good looking kids with these traits who will procreate without the need of “shaping up” or “learning skills” they obviously lack.

    I value intelligence in a conversational partner.
    While a sex partner merely needs to know good dirty talk.

    But it requires social skill to channel intelligence into an enriching conversation.
    I want to feel good, not be lectured. Nerds suck. I downgrade them to “friends”, as stated above.

    Coming on to me with an algebra equation is not going to cut it.
    Nerds suck.

    I do see value in applying raw talent to everyday situations and presenting it in a way that touches people emotionally.
    Better have high social status and let me and my pussy feel it.

    That does not mean that every nerdy guy must spend countless hours on activities that help him market himself or that he must become a copy of the smooth jock or manager.
    We needs some betas out there, too

    If he values doing research, playing computer games, reading fantasy and other nerdy pursuits, he will be happiest spending most of his time on that.
    Just stay away from us girls.

    adding a little balance to his schedule and this to his inventory of knowledge and skills
    These guys really are pathetic, boring and clueless.

    Spending a bit of his time on the gym, reading about human interactions, taking a girl out for a drink and organising a day of volunteering with the office can help him be a more balanced man.
    He better try hard as he can. He then might be allowed to buy her a drink.

    A man who can present his ideas and fight for his dreams, a man who can hold the interest of a good wife
    Boy, is there a big gap between nerds and the alphas we like to fuck.

    … unwashed, out of shape, unhealthy supernerd who is basically sacrificing himself to his work.
    I really am disgusted by the mere thought of nerds.

    Like


  191. zorgon #187, that is not advice. You just didn’t have anyone teach you to be a man. I’m amazed at the deficit of masculine traits present in so many guys today that need PUA training to overcome what is essentially a feminized upbringing. Stand up straight, present yourself well, look a person in the eye when you talk to them, shake their hand firmly, get the fuck out of the house, play sports, and learn hard work to knock that sense of entitlement out of you. These are the most basic lessons a growing boy gets from his father.

    Like


  192. […] 26, 2008 by roissy In yesterday’s post, I challenged you to describe how you’d go about meeting Coffeehouse Girl. The challenge […]

    Like


  193. 191 – Zombie Lionel Trilling ?

    Like


  194. About the financial markets comment, it is from my own observation of men who work diligently, have a lot of technical skill, but are passed over for promotion or managerial positions time and time again. Meanwhile some smooth talking corporate type with the right social connections and schmoozing skills gets the job they want.

    If I was in charge of promoting people, I also would not put that sort of guy in a managerial position. Managing is about being able to figure people out; what they expect, what they are capable of, what motivates them, how they interact, and use that knowledge to help them meet the company’s targets while finding satisfaction for themselves.
    If I made a great scientist or programmer into a bad manager, I would harm the company and make that guy miserable. That said, I do think that guys like that are often underpaid because of their lack of negotiating skills and it would be nice if someone helped them get more raises and bonuses.

    The guys who look at them twice think of them more as tickets to an easy lay rather than long-term potential material. Even the nerdy guys I hang out with will have many harsh words for an unattractive girl.

    A number of nerdy guys are harmless rather than nice. They fail to commit harm through lack of power rather than strength of character. Some of them also feel their smarts alone make them superior and entitle them to a pretty girl even if they fail to present themselves and their intellect in an enjoyable way.

    Sometimes the stubbornness that bars people from improving themselves is just an immature selfishness that causes people to feel entitled to getting what they want while being their annoying uncensored self. Sometimes people are unattractive because they do not empathize with others. If you care about someone and have respect for them, do you show with smelly clothes, unshaven (legs for the ladies), bad breath and greasy hair? Do you never cease to talk about the subjects you like to hear yourself yak about but bore others? Do you fail to notice and compliment the achievements and appearances that others have worked hard for?

    Like


  195. The reason that women test their men so badly is that pretending to have alpha status is deep betrayal in evolutionary terms. Women have a much harder time finding a true alpha. They are surrounded by betas who would be happy to help them provide for a family.

    I’m in the midwest, but in a blue state and a liberal part of town. My acquaintance with several dozens of married couples does not bear evidence to this claim. The guys are all “providers,” every last one of them.

    I also pass by tons of women with strollers, two or three kids, and their men do not seem like unhinged badboy player jerks. A lot of girls here are socialized from youth to want a good man, a family and a stable home.

    I get the feeling that the women discussed who go exclusively for “true alpha” males are a rarity, or they are different in some way that distinguishes them from the other women. From what I can tell, they often have a streak of ambition, or a bit of a thrill-seeking personality.

    While I like what evolutionary psychology has to offer, I am skeptical that every human behavior can be explained solely by the hunter-gatherer, women only want alphas theory. Some research indicates that when a woman is not ovulating, she much prefers the look of a man with more feminine features to one with more masculine “alpha” looks.

    http://www.livescience.com/health/070807_macho_men.html

    Perhaps women tend to stop being as interested in sex after the excitement phase. In a biological sense, sex was not always a very clean act and probably often led to infections in the past. A woman who wanted too much sex might also have too many children, which can eventually pose a risk to her life. She would then be much better off with a low testosterone provider man than an alpha.

    Like


  196. Managing is about being able to figure people out; what they expect, what they are capable of, what motivates them, how they interact, and use that knowledge to help them meet the company’s targets while finding satisfaction for themselves.

    In the past, managers have usually been promoted from within the rank and file. They were people who had a lot of experience and knew a lot about what the job entails. Nowadays, at least in the U.S., we have an entire managerial class that has only “management” and “people skills,” but very little else. Many so-called “middle managers” do virtually nothing except harp at people and try to make workers miserable.

    My boss is an example of a nowadays mostly gone type of good manager who is highly skilled technically. He can fill in for many of his subordinates’ roles, and knows how to figure people out and motivate them without overwhelming and micromanaging them. He is a stable provider nerdy guy, one who might even be called “beta” by those here who view a guy’s “notches” as proxy of “alphahood.” However, he has what you would call strength of character.

    I’m not sure if there is any shortcut to developing that kind of character.

    Like


  197. Hope –

    While I like what evolutionary psychology has to offer, I am skeptical that every human behavior can be explained solely by the hunter-gatherer, women only want alphas theory.

    Certainly understandable, given that we don’t live in a hunter-gatherer society, but perhaps you should have stopped there, rather than engaging in the very reductionist blather of whose relevance you’re skeptical:

    Some research indicates that when a woman is not ovulating, she much prefers the look of a man with more feminine features to one with more masculine “alpha” looks.

    Wouldn’t this, to the extent that it is relevant, indicate that the consensus here is correct, inasmuch as it suggests that the woman would be looking for a “beta provider” when she’s not fertile and an “alpha stud” (excuse me while I puke after typing those worn cliches) when she’s most fertile, with obvious implications for cuckoldry etc?

    Not that I think it’s very relevant.

    Like


  198. If women only ever slept with alpha’s and only cuckolded beta’s, most men would be alphas today.

    In any case, now that there is birth control and paternity tests, I expect even fewer children to be born out of short term trysts.

    I do think that on an evolutionary level, there was some benefit to the old practice of men and women ending monogamy after the first decade of marriage among the upper classed. Women over 35 will have healthier children by a young stud than by their late 30’s husband, plus having children from reckless alpha males in the tail of the family gives each family a suitable boy to sacrifice to the armies. The heir and the spare son would get most of their father’s money and attentions, so he gets to invest mainly in his own children. If son #4 happens to survive a few wars, he has earned enough for himself and can add a few new elements to the upper class gene pool.

    I think most of the reckless alpha males died before being able to breed, but the few that survived may have made a few more babies than the average man.

    Like


  199. Hi Hope,
    I meant to holla at you earlier but got tied up at work. Nice to meet ya, and I’ve been reading many of your posts on this site. I hope Elizabeth and Clio don’t mind my saying so, but I find you to be a rare breed among females-an unusually keen and dispassionate, rational, logical and matter of fact mind. Your posts are informative and most insightful.

    Oh, and I’d like to say, carrying over a comment you made in the Prostitution thread, that while I’ve heard of the Asian preference not to mate/date African Americans, I haven’t actually seen this play out in practice. Indeed, I know quite a few Black men who have either Asian girlfriends or wives and seem to be getting on with them very well. Still, stigmas are stigmas. Just another MFer guys like Mu’s gotta put up with.

    On the current issue and your comment wrt it, I think that while what you said in post #171 is true, we have to keep in mind something very, very important-THIS IS WHAT WOMEN WANT, based on their actions. Afterall, guys like Mystery and the like wouldn’t be making out like a bandit financially if what they’re selling ain’t working, to say nothing of the realife experiences, my own included, that does indeed validate many aspects of “Game”.

    I wanted to ask you-as a woman who married for decidedly un-American reasons (romance, love, “wet”, etc.) – what do you think the endgame of “Game” is? I mean, on the larger societal level. Given the state of male/female relations, women and so on, what’s your take on it, as a woman? Thanks in advance.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  200. I also think that in traditional societies, women would be pregnant for 9 months, then nursing for 2-3 years and then ovulating 2-3 times before getting pregnant again. Modern wives also ovulate little, as they are usually either on the pill or pregnant.

    Unless their husband is not sleeping with them very often or is infertile, regular ovulation soon leads to pregnancy.

    Like


  201. Wouldn’t this, to the extent that it is relevant, indicate that the consensus here is correct, inasmuch as it suggests that the woman would be looking for a “beta provider” when she’s not fertile and an “alpha stud” (excuse me while I puke after typing those worn cliches) when she’s most fertile, with obvious implications for cuckoldry etc?

    I am raising objections to the theory that women only want “alphas” all the time. It seems an incomplete picture, especially because a woman is only fertile for a very brief time out of each month.

    And the only way to get through to some people who subscribe to evolutionary psychology is with more relevant research in this field. If I had offered some of my statements without backup, I would be laughed out of here.

    Like


  202. The guys are all “providers,” every last one of them.
    Which is exactly what I said – betas are abundant.

    I also pass by tons of women with strollers, two or three kids, and their men do not seem like unhinged badboy player jerks.
    Alphas provide the sperm. Betas provide the support for a family. Some recent studies say that 1 out of 3 babies born in the US are not genetically fathered by the guy who’s behind the stroller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternity_fraud#cite_note-1).

    A lot of girls here are socialized from youth to want a good man, a family and a stable home.
    I am talking about who they decide to have sex with.

    I get the feeling that the women discussed who go exclusively for “true alpha” males are a rarity, or they are different in some way that distinguishes them from the other women.
    Yeah, that’s why it works so well to go out and meet women by displaying beta traits and why alpha males sleep alone all the time.

    While I like what evolutionary psychology has to offer, I am skeptical that every human behavior can be explained solely by the hunter-gatherer, women only want alphas theory.
    I was amazed, too, when I put this theory to the test and were able to create a harem. So were thousands of other guys who I communicated with over the internet.

    It’s all backed up by science, too. This study:
    http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/aap/twr/2004/00000007/00000006/art00015
    is particularly interesting since it shows how the “attitude” towards cheating (aka what women say) is societally programmed while the incidence rate (aka the amount of their actual cheating) is inherited and can be linked to a certain gene

    women only want alphas
    Nobody ever said that.

    Women WANT betas. But they are sexually attracted to alphas.

    Which results in most of them fucking the same few alpha dudes who fuck the other girls, too, in their twenties. Then marrying a beta. After which they return to fucking the occasional alpha again.

    Perhaps women tend to stop being as interested in sex after the excitement phase.
    I am so glad that I put
    http://womensinfidelity.com/
    out there.
    This not Game/PUA stuff. This is written by a woman.

    In a biological sense, sex was not always a very clean act and probably often led to infections in the past.
    It still does. And the fact that the same girls sleep with the very same few guys explains things like up to 50% of women in the US having bacterial vaginosis or trichomoniasis (and those are lesser-known STD’s):
    http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/295/21/2467
    HPV affects almost half women between 20 and 24:
    http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/297/8/813

    A woman who wanted too much sex might also have too many children, which can eventually pose a risk to her life.
    I don’t have to tell you that there are were very effective ways around pregnancy before modern birth control.

    She would then be much better off with a low testosterone provider man than an alpha.
    She will always be better of with a beta when having family, and that’s what women do. Fact is that it has almost no implications as to who she is having sex with.

    Like


  203. In the past, managers have usually been promoted from within the rank and file. They were people who had a lot of experience and knew a lot about what the job entails. Nowadays, at least in the U.S., we have an entire managerial class that has only “management” and “people skills,” but very little else. Many so-called “middle managers” do virtually nothing except harp at people and try to make workers miserable.

    This is another end of the spectrum. Choosing the more socially skilled guy among a group of engineers is different from attracting a socially skilled person who knows very little about the content of the work. Managers who harp at people and make them miserable do not have people or management skills by the way. They probably just got in because they knew the people who hired and promoted and those people did not notice anyone suitable. They do a shoddy job too sometimes.

    My boss is an example of a nowadays mostly gone type of good manager who is highly skilled technically. He can fill in for many of his subordinates’ roles, and knows how to figure people out and motivate them without overwhelming and micromanaging them. He is a stable provider nerdy guy, one who might even be called “beta” by those here who view a guy’s “notches” as proxy of “alphahood.” However, he has what you would call strength of character.

    I’m not sure if there is any shortcut to developing that kind of character.

    I think that kind of man has very good people skills and management skills.

    By the way I don’t think people and management skills have a great overlap with cad skills.

    Like


  204. Statistics from the United States, Australia and other countries suggest that approximately 30% of all paternity tests exclude the putative father as biological father.[2] These numbers do not reflect the overall incidence of paternity fraud in the general population, because the numbers are based on tests performed in cases in which the alleged fathers suspected they were not the biological fathers of the subject child. For example, see the AABB statistics for 2001.[3]

    This is clearly not 1/3 of all American babies, just 1/3 of babies that suspected by the father not to be his.

    Like


  205. 199 – If women only ever slept with alpha’s and only cuckolded beta’s, most men would be alphas today.

    This is only true if alpha traits were exclusively inherited. Recent evidence speaks against that:
    http://www.pnas.org/content/105/33/11645.abstract

    In any case, now that there is birth control and paternity tests, I expect even fewer children to be born out of short term trysts.

    Possible, but unlikely. Blood type determination isn’t bad in finding out your Dad wasn’t around when you were made. Once people realized this in my home country, they did not change their sexual behavior, but eliminated this exercise from the high school curricula.

    We are dealing with deeply biologically rooted behavior here. People know that smoking causes cancer, but that doesn’t treat their addictions.

    I do think that on an evolutionary level, there was some benefit to the old practice of men and women ending monogamy after the first decade of marriage

    Yeah, that’s why divorce rate peaks four to seven years into marriage. But again, that’s almost secondary to the question of genetic paternity.

    Women over 35 will have healthier children by a young stud than by their late 30’s husband

    Isn’t it more the other way round? 🙂
    See “grandmother hypothesis”…

    Like


  206. Dumbass truly:
    Women over 35 will have healthier children by a young stud than by their late 30’s husband,

    wrong. this is feminist wishful thinking.
    a late 30s man has plenty of viable sperm. whatever SLIGHT elevated risk of chromosomal defects there is from his sperm is swamped by the MUCH greater risk of not having a kid AT ALL by a rapidly expiring 35 year old woman.

    plus having children from reckless alpha males in the tail of the family gives each family a suitable boy to sacrifice to the armies.

    you’re assuming the children of single mothers who’ve been abandoned by these reckless alpha males would make it to adulthood to serve in the army in the first place.
    that is an unsound assumption.

    By the way I don’t think people and management skills have a great overlap with cad skills.

    it has a bigger overlap than that of men with no people skills. think mcfly.

    Like


  207. 205 – Nobody know the actual rate. It might be closer to 10%, but that is still 1 out o 10 babies. Let’s count the number of people on this forum…

    http://www.childsupportanalysis.co.uk/analysis_and_opinion/choices_and_behaviours/aabb.htm#motherless

    Like


  208. Roissy,

    “The researchers found that men aged 35 and older had higher concentrations of sperm with broken strands of DNA, and that the damage was greater.

    In general, older men’s sperm was less active so they had less chance of fertilising an egg.

    A recent study found that male infertility was just as likely as female infertility to prevent couples from having a family.
    “http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2328909.stm

    “Researchers found it takes up to five times as long for a man over 45 to get a woman pregnant than if he was under 25. Although the impact of age on a woman’s fertility has been well-studied, experts say this is the first time such a strong association has been found between age and male fertility in the time it takes to conceive a child.”
    “Experts say age gradually begins to take its toll on sperm starting at about age 30, and a more abrupt decline in male fertility starts at age 45.”
    http://www.webmd.com/infertility-and-reproduction/news/20030626/male-biological-clock-ticking-too

    “Recent studies have linked older fatherhood with increased risks of schizophrenia, autism, Down syndrome and other disorders in children. And in this case, “older” means as young as 40.”
    “Breaks in sperm DNA strands, called DNA fragmentation, rose steadily from ages 20 to 80. These breaks can cause fertility problems, pregnancy failures and an increase in some genetic diseases. For instance, genetic mutations in the sperm that can cause dwarfism, a disorder that affects bone growth, increase about 2 percent each year.”
    http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/17937814/

    There you go.

    you’re assuming the children of single mothers

    I’m talking about cuckold situations.

    Like


  209. 200 Mu’Min

    Oh, and I’d like to say, carrying over a comment you made in the Prostitution thread, that while I’ve heard of the Asian preference not to mate/date African Americans, I haven’t actually seen this play out in practice. Indeed, I know quite a few Black men who have either Asian girlfriends or wives and seem to be getting on with them very well.

    I think there are very few unattached women among the Chinese working in Africa, though. So the question is how common Asian man/African woman pairings are… and as far I can tell, they are extremely rare.

    Like


  210. Here is what I’d do (I studiously avoided reading all responses AND the post after this one btw when I saw the topic of the post after this one so as not to change my first instinct answer):

    I would give her a few more looks with concentration like I’m trying to place her. When she noticed I still wouldn’t say anything for a few seconds I’d just play eye games with her. Then I’d say I know you from somewhere…do you go to school at Rice? Were at Super Happy Fun Land recently? Were you at ..? hmmm… Generally if she likes you she will start thinking of places you might have met.
    You can start a conversation from there.

    Like


  211. In three words: In. Timi. Dating.

    Patrick

    I been told^^^. I think it works to keep the crazies and PUA men away.

    Like


  212. By eye games I mean when I have her eye contact, smirk and wiggle my eyebrows at her.

    Like


  213. Alphas provide the sperm. Betas provide the support for a family.

    The provider husband also provided the sperm. In cases of exceptions, that is what they are — exceptions.

    Nobody know the actual rate. It might be closer to 10%, but that is still 1 out o 10 babies.

    Perhaps the rate is in fact that 1 out of 10 babies are a result of a cuckold, but that would signify that statistically speaking, the odds are still in the provider’s favor. The fact is, these providers are getting laid.

    I am talking about who they decide to have sex with.

    So am I. The “beta provider” marriages are not sexless. A lot of women prefer to have sex when they are feeling safe, secure and loved. That seems incongruous with the message that women want their hair pulled and to be called dirty names in bed, but only a subset of women are into that kind of rough play.

    There is “passion,” and there is “intimacy,” and the two can exist independently. The feelings of fear, worthlessness and nervousness that can come with casual sex with a more violent “alpha” might repulse the woman who is not a thrill seeker rather than excite her.

    Yeah, that’s why it works so well to go out and meet women by displaying beta traits and why alpha males sleep alone all the time.

    “Alpha traits” serve men well for short-term flings, but these provider husbands hardly ever sleep alone either. Again, many women out there are looking for long-term relationships, and you will hardly see these women because they are already in such relationships with the “beta providers.” I see a lot of them — a lot of red state family values exist in blue and swing states. Most people are apolitical and do not actually vote.

    I was amazed, too, when I put this theory to the test and were able to create a harem. So were thousands of other guys who I communicated with over the internet.

    Those women you have put into your harem, do you know for a fact that they are in the majority or minority in terms of their characteristics? Your article specifically states that it is linked to a certain gene, but does not state (at least in the synopsis) its prevalence.

    Which results in most of them fucking the same few alpha dudes who fuck the other girls, too, in their twenties. Then marrying a beta. After which they return to fucking the occasional alpha again.

    I am not seeing this in the suburbs or among those I come into contact with online and offline. Most women are having serial long-term relationships with very few stable “beta” partners whom they establish rapport, rather than having lots of one-night stands with the “same few alphas.”

    She will always be better of with a beta when having family, and that’s what women do. Fact is that it has almost no implications as to who she is having sex with.

    No? A woman who chooses a husband is choosing him as her mate, that is she de facto consummates the relationship by choosing to having sex with him. If at least half the women prefer feminine men as mates, then it stands to reason that they are having sex with these men. I doubt those men would marry a woman without getting that from her, at least in the beginning.

    We are dealing with deeply biologically rooted behavior here. People know that smoking causes cancer, but that doesn’t treat their addictions.

    Humans have evolved a prefrontal cortex for good reasons. Many people have successfully quit smoking, and rates of smoking among adults and youth have in fact gone down in the past decades.

    Emulating the alpha has its rewards, I am sure, in more abundant short-term supply of sex. But I call into question your premise that all women would choose the alpha over the beta for sex, especially when confounding factors like romantic love are involved.

    Like


  214. dumbass truly:
    There you go.

    nothing you linked to disproves or even addresses my point refuting what you wrote. that being, whatever slight decrease there is in a man’s sperm viability is completely SWAMPED by the fact that a woman’s fertility drops DRASTICALLY by her mid-30s and hits an expiration date somewhere between 40 and 50.

    since you are an evasive cunt of very feeble mind, i will spell out what this means for you:

    women have an expiration date.
    men do not.

    there ya go.

    Researchers found it takes up to five times as long for a man over 45 to get a woman pregnant than if he was under 25.

    dumbass, all this means is that a 45 year old man will have to fuck his woman five times as often as a 25 year old man in order to impregnate her.
    sounds like a sweet deal to me!

    I’m talking about cuckold situations.

    men often suspect if a child is not theirs. a bastard child will have less chance of reaching adulthood than a biological child, due to either fatherly neglect or, in some cases, infanticide.
    you are also assuming these alpha male bastard children will be sons. half will not. and that of those who are sons, they will be the ones chosen to go to war. these assumptions are false. so your “army sacrifice” theory goes right out the window.
    do you even bother to think before shitting all over the comments section with your insipid, ignorant blather?

    Like


  215. Researchers found it takes up to five times as long for a man over 45 to get a woman pregnant than if he was under 25.

    And this is a problem how exactly?

    Breaks in sperm DNA strands, called DNA fragmentation, rose steadily from ages 20 to 80

    This borders on the ridiculous. Can someone please tell me what explanatory power there is in an age/fertility related study with a range of that kind?

    Like


  216. roissy,

    “women have an expiration date, men do not”

    This is basically true for fertility, but not for genetic quality.
    Autism is increasingly attributed to paternal age.

    Endless rounds of spermatogenesis create opportunities for genetic mishaps.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternal_age_effect

    I don’t think the question should be framed in “his or her fault”. Rather, men should be made aware that delaying fatherhood can increase opportunities for genetic error. Each man can choose to weigh his risks/benefits/options if he desires a family.

    Like


  217. what do you think the endgame of “Game” is? I mean, on the larger societal level. Given the state of male/female relations, women and so on, what’s your take on it, as a woman? Thanks in advance.

    Hi Mu’Min. I assure you I am far from logical and dispassionate, but I can babble like a man (at least the Gender Genie thinks so) when I put my mind to it. I also do not think that you will get a very female view of the situation from me. It might be a bit out there, and I don’t think it will answer your question. But this is my view.

    The endgame of “game” is yet another version of “what will benefit me” that people have always attempted to bring about — a world that suits their vision, that of perhaps a new sexual paradigm in which acolytes of “game” have great sex lives with beautiful women. They will convert more and more into their ranks and lure them with promises of bountiful boobs and booty. But in the end people will always regress to the mean.

    Witness the modern Christian’s superficial adherence to most of its rules. Most people will hear some sound bytes, practice some surface level rituals, and leave it at that. Absent ways to enforce the rules, people stop following them. The average human being simply has no patience for the kind of knowledge seeking and deep introspection required for “real game,” so to speak.

    “Game” seems to me to be a type of enlightenment, but a negative one. That is, to acquire “game” means becoming more aware of one’s self and surroundings and striving for hard self-improvement, but instead of using the newfound wisdom and knowledge to achieve balance in all areas of one’s life, the adherents gain a nihilistic view and tend toward exclusively sexual gain. They experience simultaneous success and discontentment.

    There is precedent for this kind of learning, spiritual and personal growth combined with profit motives among other groups or cults. The Freemasons are said to be luciferians, using “luciferian” in the scholarly sense of “bringing enlightenment”, invoking Prometheus who stole fire from the gods to bring to man. Some very powerful individuals, including numerous U.S. presidents, were Freemasons.

    Will game bring about tremendous social change? I don’t know. Christianity certainly did in the West, as have other important social and cultural phenomenons. But in daily observation of social interactions, normal people cannot perfect game because they simply cannot. Our imperfection is also our saving grace.

    Those who do and can use their knowledge to the fullest extent are similar to the old mystics and shamans with their words of power, props, costumes and projected outward faith and confidence in themselves. Much of the world is like a stage for such people, who understand intimately the laws of power and wield it at their will.

    They are not the norm. Men and women will always find some way of getting together, because it is how nature designed us. Game is not for this. It is for power, for those few who truly know and seek power, and for those who are attracted to power itself. Women, being simple creatures that we are, gravitate toward it inexorably, but game is not the only, not the first, nor the last method to it.

    Like


  218. The fact is, these providers are getting laid.

    Yes, but how often, and is it even remotely satisfying for the male involved?

    Like


  219. These are also pretty interesting reads:

    “What’s more, a woman whose partner is at least five years older than her has less chance of conceiving within a year than a woman whose partner is the same age as her, irrespective of her age. It’s thought that the odds on conceiving within a year of trying decrease by three per cent for every year that the man is over the age of 24.”

    “The effects of age on sperm are not just limited to a decline in volume, shape and motility. There’s also growing evidence that the offspring of older fathers run an increased risk of genetic abnormalities and other long-term health problems. This is because older men tend to have more sperm with DNA mutations. Both younger and older men develop damaged or unhealthy sperm, but usually a process called apoptosis eliminates any defective sperm. A study published in 2003 found that apoptosis did not occur as efficiently in the older men and that there was a higher percentage of damaged sperm in the semen of men aged 36-57 years than in those of men aged 20-35 years. ”

    http://www.babycentre.co.uk/preconception/dadstobe/howageaffectsfertility/

    I always enjoy reading about genetics, and some of these articles really contain some interesting findings.

    I guess this further explains in what ways infidelity at the end of marriages among the upper classes may have contributed to a healthier gene pool in the old days. A younger man would contribute to healthier children and very young men were very often more than willing to sleep with a married women whose husband closed an eye. Of course, infidelity being taboo in the first decade of marriage ensured that every husband had a chance of fathering a respectable brood.

    It also makes sense, as both the older, married party and the younger single party have an evolutionary benefit. Imagine a femal 10 marrying a male 10 and having 4 children with him between the age of 23 and 33. Then she cheats with an 18yo 8 and gets a very healthy child at 34. She benefits from the youth of his sperm, he benefits by the opportunity to father a child before marriage. Her husband also fathers a child with an 18yo 8 that he marries off to a servant, his second tier sperm still having a high chance of turning into a baby with few worries of having to take care of a handicapped child. They have another kid of their own in the meantime. When they approach 40, there is a smaller chance of them conceiving together, but because the wife has another infidelity, this time with a 19yo 6, there is another baby in the family. Husband also fathers two children, the handicapped one is exposed at birth, the other has a better life than it’s peasant mother would normally be able to offer because of the sum given by the father.

    Since only the first 2 sons are likely to be heirs of their father’s estate, it matters little who is born in the tail of the family on the level of investment. Nobility alone was enough to give the cuckold brother a good position in the army. Any girls could be married off or become nuns. The stud had a chance to father a child that had a high chance of surviving and receiving resources. If he was a reckless young man and died before marrying, this may be his only child.

    Not that this kind of lifestyle would make people happy, evolutional powers care little for the happiness of individuals.

    Like


  220. anony moused:
    This is basically true for fertility, but not for genetic quality.

    it’s basically true for both. an expiration date means there is no chance for kids. women face that eventual doom. men do not. and this is as true for men’s fertility as it is for sperm quality, despite the increased risk of genetic defects as the man ages. see: michael douglas. or any aging male celebrity who pops out kids with his younger wife.
    anyhow, if there is a deformed fetus, that’s what abortion is for. yay abortion!

    I don’t think the question should be framed in “his or her fault”.

    i’m not assigning “fault”. i’m saying that the woman has more reason than the man to fear getting older if it’s kids she wants.

    Rather, men should be made aware that delaying fatherhood can increase opportunities for genetic error.

    judging by the increase in fertility treatments by 30- and 40-something careerist women trying for their first child, i’d say it’s the women who are in much more dire need of being made aware of their fading fertility clocks.
    ps: tick tock goes the clock!

    Like


  221. dumbass truly:
    There’s also growing evidence that the offspring of older fathers run an increased risk of genetic abnormalities and other long-term health problems.

    again, none of this has anything to do with the simple fact of life that women have an expiration date while men, despite the increased difficulty of impregnating women, can go on having healthy children right up until the day they die.
    but i’m guessing this is a fact you refuse to contemplate and continue evading, for reasons that are left to the reader to ponder.
    heh.

    I guess this further explains in what ways infidelity at the end of marriages among the upper classes may have contributed to a healthier gene pool in the old days.

    you have it ass-backwards. the infidelity that may have contributed to a “healthier” gene pool was older men impregnating younger women. not older women getting knocked up by younger men.

    Then she cheats with an 18yo 8 and gets a very healthy child at 34.

    34 year old women are not as likely to produce healthy, or ANY, offspring as 24 year old women.
    could you possibly be this dumb?
    rhetorical.

    your “theories” are a mish mash of idiocy, wrapped in stupidity, and packaged in wishful thinking.

    Like


  222. I don’t think the question should be framed in “his or her fault”. Rather, men should be made aware that delaying fatherhood can increase opportunities for genetic error. Each man can choose to weigh his risks/benefits/options if he desires a family.

    This is true.

    [ME: no it’s not. a 35 year old women has a much lower fertility than a 35 year old man, and is even lower than a 55 year old man. dumbass truly, since you continue ignoring my counter arguments putting the lie to everything you’ve written here, and since you cannot stop being a lying evasive cunt and soiling the comments with your ignorant blather, i am banning you. your idiocy and crackpot “theories” that go against everything evolutionary science has taught us about male-female relations will have to find another outlet. may i suggest your cats? they listen real well if you catch them while they’re sleeping.]

    Like


  223. 214 – The provider husband also provided the sperm. In cases of exceptions, that is what they are — exceptions.

    True.
    Alpha = sperm which sometimes leads to kids (for free).
    Beta = sperm which often leads to kids (for a cost).

    My point was the following:

    Given that the data suggests that up top 1/3 of babies are produced by strange, and the beta pays while the alpha walks of to produce more babies – who’s better of from a male perspective?

    The fact is, these providers are getting laid.

    They do indeed. For a while at least, until wifeys attraction dies. After all they are paying for it in terms of money (if they go to hookers) and/or resources (if they marry).

    The “beta provider” marriages are not sexless.

    A quick google search confirms that a lot of them are, especially when compared to pre-marrital circumstances.

    Almost half of the US women complain that their sex drive goes down after getting the rock (anecdotal evidence of many guys on this board will confirm that their libido does not seem to be that bad during those “girl’s nights” when they go out and take it off for a couple of hours).

    ~50% of women! The same number of gals, who had no problem finding a cock with an STD during their mid-twenties (see my above post), all of a sudden starts to dislike sex:

    “According to Newsweek, more than 18% of couples have sex as little as 10 times a year, making them fall into what experts call the ‘sexless marriage’ category.

    Another survey in the Newsweek shows that most married couples have sex about once every week. By contrast, unmarried singles have sex up to three times a week!

    About 20-25% of men and 30-50% of women complain about their lack of sex drive.”
    (http://www.squidoo.com/sexlessmarriage)

    A lot of women prefer to have sex when they are feeling safe, secure and loved. That seems incongruous with the message that women want their hair pulled and to be called dirty names in bed, but only a subset of women are into that kind of rough play.

    Alphas are good lovers, not rough mechanical machines. They know that there is a time for everything. Hey, did I see you blush?

    There is “passion,” and there is “intimacy,” and the two can exist independently.

    Exactly. And while the woman enjoys sexless intimacy with the beta, she will go and get her fix of passion from somebody else.

    The feelings of fear, worthlessness and nervousness that can come with casual sex with a more violent “alpha” might repulse the woman who is not a thrill seeker rather than excite her.

    Again, alphas are not just sexual attraction. They know that comfort is the other part that is needed to bed a woman. That’s how they get their reputation as “jerks” and “assholes”.

    “Alpha traits” serve men well for short-term flings,

    Again, there are hords of guys out there who would die to just get a girlfriend. They don’t. Most girls without a biological clock ticking as loud as Thorhammer will try to get an alpha with the secret dream of turning him into a beta.

    but these provider husbands hardly ever sleep alone.

    Once they find a girl who had enough of the “assholes”, who refused to commit to her, they don’t sleep alone, but they don’t have much sex either.

    Again, many women out there are looking for long-term relationships,

    Almost all of them are. And they still don’t go for the beta guys who run after them, but they dream of Prince Charming to come and swoop her of her feet. By being the sexually attractive “Man” (read: alpha) she craves for.

    Go back and read what other women like YT write – even on this board – about what she likes. The devil is in the small print:

    “Looking for sweet, loving provider guy
    (please also be handsome, sexy, confident and socially skilled. Somebody who has a dream and stands up for it. Somebody with a spine. A MAN who doesn’t back down and who has an interesting life on his own. He preferably works out. He should be witty and it would be best if he knows how to be intelligent without being boring. In short, I am looking for THE KIND OF MAN EVERY OTHER WOMEN WOULD WANT TOO.
    READ: TOTAL ALPHA)”

    and you will hardly see these women because they are already in such relationships with the “beta providers.”

    Maybe once they turn 35. All attractive women around me enjoy being surrounded by beta “friends”, but would rather go to a convent than showing up with a boyfriend who is anything less but a stud.

    Your article specifically states that it is linked to a certain gene, but does not state (at least in the synopsis) its prevalence.

    Good point. It’s possible that most of our discussion is based on different subpopulations. My personal experience is that game works on ANY girl.

    I am not seeing this in the suburbs or among those I come into contact with online and offline.

    Would these women in relationships really tell you about their flings? C’mon!

    No? A woman who chooses a husband is choosing him as her mate, that is she de facto consummates the relationship by choosing to having sex with him. … I doubt those men would marry a woman without getting that from her, at least in the beginning.

    Watch the small print at the end.

    Humans have evolved a prefrontal cortex for good reasons.

    Sex and mate choice are interesting for the exact reason that they bypass the frontal lobe

    Emulating the alpha has its rewards, I am sure, in more abundant short-term supply of sex.

    Short term? How would it ever end for an alpha? He can go out and take a woman home every night if he wants to. Age, if anything, works for us men.

    But I call into question your premise that all women would choose the alpha over the beta for sex,

    That’s only true because of your specific stereotype of an alpha. Every list of what kind of guy would be the ideal lover here and elsewhere revealed alpha traits more than anything.

    especially when confounding factors like romantic love are involved.

    Women fall in love with alphas. All my beta friends have lots of love to offer, and get to listen to their female friends’ sob stories about the jerks they’re dating:
    http://www.theonion.com/content/news/unattractive_man_just_like_a

    Like


  224. Roissy,

    It seems like these pieces of my fragile ego are upsetting you a bit.

    [ME: on the contrary. it’s your lying and evasive cuntery that is inspiring me to come down on you with the hammer of the gods. i have refuted what you claimed and asked you to present counter evidence. you have not and instead continue on your retarded merry way, oblivious to the facts. so off you go!]

    Like


  225. roissy, # 221.

    You keep reframing the question to address the *female* biological clock. Nor arguement there. Young women need blunt information on fertility and the brutal costs of infertility.
    Western european women are even worse about wasting their fertility because the states fund the cost of infertility, inclusive with socialized health care.

    ps. old sperm=mutation bombs

    Like


  226. i am banning you.

    I’m rather shocked. I’ve probably said stuff that made little sense, and Dizzy has pissed you off on numerous occasions, and Sara can sometimes have diarrhea of the mouth, but Yours Truly gets banned for simply disagreeing with you? I’m almost tempted to ask if something’s wrong…

    Like


  227. anony back for more of my special lessons:
    You keep reframing the question to address the *female* biological clock.

    the PRIMARY deciding factor for whether a couple will have a child AT ALL is the woman’s age.
    do you dispute this?

    ps. old sperm=mutation bombs

    pps: old ovaries = dud.
    hee!

    btw, how old are you, anony?

    Like


  228. roissy, # 227,

    My interest in fertility is professional, not personal. I had my own three flourishing kids at (my) ages of 29, 31, and 34.

    ppps.
    old ovaries————-> $$$$ to fertility clinics
    old sperm————–> $$$$$$$$$$$$ to special education schools

    Like


  229. I’ve probably said stuff that made little sense, and Dizzy has pissed you off on numerous occasions, and Sara can sometimes have diarrhea of the mouth, but Yours Truly gets banned for simply disagreeing with you?

    it’s not her disagreeing with me that got her banned, DA. it’s her perpetual lying and, more importantly, her constant evasion when i call her out on her shit.

    the difference between you, dizzy, sara and dumbass truly is that she relentlessly spews her idiocy oblivious to those calling her out on it, and posts the same lies over and over like this blog is her own. you three at least have the integrity to take my beatings face on, and suffer the consequences.

    therefore, she will no longer use this blog to hash out her psychological issues ad nauseum.

    Like


  230. anony takes over dumbass truly’s idiocy post:
    My interest in fertility is professional, not personal.

    i suggest you seek another avenue of employment. you’re in over your head.
    and it’s all too clear that your psychological and feminist biases are clouding your professional judgment.
    your clients should know that.

    ppps.
    old ovaries————-> $$$$ to fertility clinics
    old sperm————–> $$$$$$$$$$$$ to special education schools

    correction.
    pppps:
    old ovaries———>$$$$$$ for therapy to assuage childlessness.
    old sperm———->some extra time spent fucking to ensure fertilization and an amniocentesis to ensure health of fetus.

    double hee!

    btw, i notice you didn’t answer my leetle question. i suggest you do if you don’t want to be banned like your sister yours truly. here it is again:

    the PRIMARY deciding factor for whether a couple will have a child AT ALL is the woman’s age.
    do you dispute this?

    i’ll be waiting for your response.
    not holding breath…

    Like


  231. adieu.
    Best wishes.

    Like


  232. anony declared surrender:
    adieu.
    Best wishes.

    spanked!

    Like


  233. Speaking of people who acted like this blog was their own, what happened to Elizabeth?

    Like


  234. Nobody know the actual rate. It might be closer to 10%, but that is still 1 out o 10 babies.

    I read the article where this statistic came from but I have a hard time believing that 10% of all women are deceptive enough to pass another man’s baby off as their husband’s child.

    There is wrong and then there is dead wrong*. It’s wrong to cheat on your spouse. It’s dead wrong to allow another man to impregnate you, and try to pass it off as your husband’s child. I don’t have the guts to do something like that. For one, I believe that BC was one of the world’s greatest inventions and two I watch to many Lifetime movies. Along with the Lifetime movies, a few episodes of Oprah will scare the hell out of most women thinking about pulling this type of stunt.

    BTW, After seeing this madness on Maury and Judge Hatchet, I think a DNA test should be mandatory before a man is allowed to sign a birth certificate.

    Like


  235. Roissy is mean:(

    He hurts my feeling when he is mean to other people.

    Like


  236. PA- Would Audrey tautou be your type?

    Like


  237. Far be it for me to tell anyone what to do w/their own sites, but I too was a bit concerned by Roissy’s decision to ban Yours Truly, *although* he is correct, she never did actually refute his claims. I think it goes w/o saying that, yes, the key consideration for conception/childbearing is the condition of the mother, which undoubtedly includes age.

    That said, I would just like to suggest, that perhaps there’s more to the picture than we may realize. For example, it is a well known fact that among both Black and Hispanic women, fertility rates are higher and menopause later, ie, they can have longer “shelf lives”. It is not unusual in the least for Black or Brown women to have perfectly healthy kids well into their 40s and beyond. And unless I miss my guess, this happens more for them than for White females, on average, who tend to be more represented at fertility clinics and to have kids w/abnormalities such as Down’s Syndrome, etc.

    I would have loved to ask YT exactly where’d she get the whole upper class older wife younger stud notion from. I’ve studied a bit of Victorian England and the like and do not recall seeing anything like this. On the face of it it would seem to contradict the common folk wisdom and at the least raises questions about what we now know scientifically about fertility in our time. But I still would like to have had the chance to question her nonetheless.

    I respect Roissy’s decision to run his site as he wishes. Its just that, as one who’s been on the receiving end of quite a few bans, I abhor it generally. I think Roissy made his point and exposed YT’s flawed positions quite well w/o ever having to resort to banning her.

    Just my two cents.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  238. It is not unusual in the least for Black or Brown women to have perfectly healthy kids well into their 40s and beyond.

    Mumim,^^^

    When I started visiting this site, I wondered why the men here go on and on about women not being able to(or it being rare) have children after 35. I know so many women who have had a change of life baby. The majority of the women in my acquaintance who’ve had babies 40+ did not plan on having children at 40+. They believed that once they hit 4o+ they no longer had to use birth control because the likelihood of them becoming pregnant was so small.

    I’ve also noticed how shocked many of the male comenters are of the ages of John Edwards mistress and Sara Palin when they conceived. I mean really, it’s no big deal.

    Gentlemen & kick a bit&h*,unless the woman is 50+, strap up and take the condom home with you. Leaving used condoms in the trash is another way that many men finding themselves paying child support.

    *j/k

    Like


  239. 239 – CN

    You believe that

    Leaving used condoms in the trash is another way that many men finding themselves paying child support.

    but you

    have a hard time believing that 10% of all women are deceptive enough to pass another man’s baby off as their husband’s child.

    You’re full of it.

    Like


  240. 240 Czar on Chic:

    Spanked.

    Like


  241. Czar how so?

    A woman may want to trap a guy who she really loves or at least think she does. A woman passing another man’s baby off as her husbands is just rotten and despicable.

    I don’t profess to know everything because many of you are much older than I and have more life experience. I just don’t think the two are equal, with the exception of NBA groupies.

    @tupac- If czar spanked me, he would never forget it.

    Like


  242. Would Audrey tautou be your type?

    I thin the closest to my type is Irene Jacob in “Red.”

    Like


  243. or in “Double Life of Veronique”

    Like


  244. PA, I question your taste in women, but I also imagine that you’d do the same thing. Madame Jacob comes across as “sexless”, but as pointed out before, I seem to only respond to blatant sexual displays by females.

    Like


  245. on September 27, 2008 at 1:13 am Comment_Not_A_Good_Example

    ******
    I’ve also noticed how shocked many of the male comenters are of the ages of John Edwards mistress and Sara Palin when they conceived.
    ******

    Sarah Palin’s down’s-syndrome child is perhaps not a good example of older women fertility.

    Like


  246. DA, I imagie your ideal is (was) Anna Nicole Smith, no?

    Like


  247. PA, she wouldn’t be an ideal for me either. She was just too pale and drudged out looking for my tastes. The stereotypical guidette of the Mid-Atlantic has been a bit more towards my sexual tastes. The downside is that most of these girls are only useful for sexual purposes.

    Like


  248. Here’s an example of something that I’d consider banging.

    Like


  249. PA, I think your right about DA, Anna Nicole Smith is his type. I don’t know why I didn’t think of her sooner. Irene Jacob is very cute. Her beauty is the type of beauty that Audrey Tautou has.

    Comment_Not_A_Good_Example-I guess but the men here were shocked at the fact that she could become pregnant – IVF, DS baby or not.

    Like


  250. Those girls are hot in a vulgar sort of way. I can see how a drunk shag can be fun with either one of them. Sober, I probably wouldn’t be all that motivated to put in the work of seducing them.

    Like


  251. Who’s your ideal, Chic?

    Like


  252. Those girls are hot in a vulgar sort of way.

    Those girls ooze sexuality in a way that the average woman on a daily basis just doesn’t do. They’re “designed” for sex, and they’re doing what they know will attract the men and sex that they want. Even my own little omega brain, these women don’t need seducing because they’re ready and willing for sex whenever and wherever which probably isn’t true in real life unless you’re an alpha guido male, but they give off the illusion. In contrast, real women can be beautiful, but it’s just too difficult to bother prying out their tiny potential sexuality unless you’re skilled with game and other jedi mind tricks.

    Just for a comparison, I find her to be attractive as a long-term partner, and she’s possibly doable, but only like that. Without makeup and nice fashionable clothes, I probably wouldn’t bother…

    Like


  253. @PA-

    blk women
    Gabrielle Union
    Kenya Moore
    Dorthy Dandrige
    Adrinna Lima
    Yasmin Warsame
    Liya Kabede

    White Women
    Linda Carter(wonder woman)
    Jacqueline
    Oksana Fyodorova(miss Universe)
    Elizabeth Taylor
    Megan Fox
    The French newswoman(forgot her name)

    Asian
    Zhang Zi
    Kelly Hu
    Lindesey Price
    Du Juan
    Ling Tan

    Like


  254. PA- Agreed. There is a difference between beautiful and vulgar hot.

    Like


  255. You just didn’t have anyone teach you to be a man. I’m amazed at the deficit of masculine traits present in so many guys today that need PUA training to overcome what is essentially a feminized upbringing.

    I think it’s a mistake to attribute something like Asperger’s to a “feminized upbringing.” Neither of my brothers had any of the sorts of “issues” I did as a kid. Also, skipping two grades was far from helpful in this respect.

    Again, I’ve never been formally tested or diagnosed, but if I read through the following summary of the disease, it is downright spooky how accurate it is in describing me as a kid.

    Persons with AS show marked deficiencies in social skills, have difficulties with transitions or changes and prefer sameness. They often have obsessive routines and may be preoccupied with a particular subject of interest. They have a great deal of difficulty reading nonverbal cues (body language) and very often the individual with AS has difficulty determining proper body space. Often overly sensitive to sounds, tastes, smells, and sights, the person with AS may prefer soft clothing, certain foods, and be bothered by sounds or lights no one else seems to hear or see. It’s important to remember that the person with AS perceives the world very differently. Therefore, many behaviors that seem odd or unusual are due to those neurological differences and not the result of intentional rudeness or bad behavior, and most certainly not the result of “improper parenting”.

    By definition, those with AS have a normal IQ and many individuals (although not all), exhibit exceptional skill or talent in a specific area. Because of their high degree of functionality and their naiveté, those with AS are often viewed as eccentric or odd and can easily become victims of teasing and bullying. While language development seems, on the surface, normal, individuals with AS often have deficits in pragmatics and prosody. Vocabularies may be extraordinarily rich and some children sound like “little professors.” However, persons with AS can be extremely literal and have difficulty using language in a social context.”

    Like


  256. Zorgon —

    Baron Sasha Cohen, brother of the comedian of Borat fame in the US and longstanding celebrity in the UK, has a theory that AS and autism are on a continuum as a personality trait that’s a side effect of some IQ boosting mutations. These seem to find particular gene expression in males.

    If I were you, I’d read up on him and his work big time. If you haven’t already.

    Like


  257. Zorgon —

    Also I’d go the the truly excellent high IQ but generalist appealing site GNXP and do a site search on both Sasha Cohen and Asperger’s.

    There is probably no better site in existence for literature review of what’s most interesting in genetics and the human biology / prehistory fields generally. Also, Razib and some others have a great interest in comparative world history.

    Day to day half or more of the stuff is too specialist to interest me at all, and my interests are broad. But 1/3 to 1/4 of the stuff there has broader appeal, and 1/10 or 1/20 of it is amazing — as in there’s no place better for the write up. The NY Times science section, pales in comparison, as does today’s Scientific American.

    It’s also not infrequently politically incorrect, without that being a goal. It just isn’t much of an impediment. (If you want higher octane assaults on PC, go look for Godless Capitalist’s explorations in the blog’s early days, 2002-5 esp. GC has since gone largely emeritus, focusing on his cutting edge genetics scientific work and PUA efforts instead.)

    It’s become pretty famous actually in both science blog and realist circles.

    Like


  258. Zorgon —

    Oh, Agnostic became a contributor focusing on the social sciences beginning a couple of years ago, and is quite active there now.

    Like


  259. dougjnn:

    To the dismay of some longtime readers. His inquiries into the social sciences are about as worthwhile as his inquiries and reports on pick-up artistry. Mostly stuff you already knew wrapped in a load of bologna delivered in a chest-beating style.

    There is a certain humor value to them, though. Like Chet Snicker’s evil twin or something.

    Like


  260. Pupu wished Roissy had simply ducked when the bullets went his way, like what Yours Truly had done.

    Like


  261. I’m just seeing this banning of Yours Truly thing.

    I’m not going to be absolutist about never banning anyone, especially not for long, but I’m fairly close. If someone’s a true troll, engaging in kamakaze attacks and not serious discussion, then yeah.

    But not Yours Truly Roissy.

    I saw the exchange that irritated you so much, and I can see why you were irritated. I basically think/know you were right and she was obliviously wrong. Perhaps wine tipsy wrong. Whatever.

    She doesn’t deserve any long banning Roissy. Be large here guy.

    She has lots of interesting things to say. She’s very far from a troll. She’s most certainly genuine and female, sometimes maddeningly so. Hey!! Vive la difference.

    Time to do it man. Unban Yours Truly.

    Like


  262. dougjnn: At this point, I’ve basically come to terms with it — I guess I’m more interested in solutions than what caused the problem. (If you can call it a problem. I mean, on the flip side, in exchange for being socially retarded as a kid, I was programming a computer at age 2, reading at age 3, doing long division at age 6, and doing calculus at age 10. Mostly self-taught.)

    That said:
    – Yes, there are clearly some mutations that, shall we say, increase book smarts at the cost of street smarts — and I clearly got a whopper of one.
    – Autism/Aspergers are clearly a spectrum and not just a “yes or no” thing.
    – Males are disproportionely affected, for sure. As always, the standard deviation is higher for men.

    And most importantly: I don’t consider it a valid excuse. I have no business whining about it. It is *not* a sentence to an asocial, celibate life. Just like most other things in life, it is what you make of it. I’m an adult now and whatever issues I have are my own responsibility to take care of. Maybe it would have been better for me to get some better intervention as a kid, but it’s not like there is a pill you can take that magically fixes it. In the end, what it means is: I have to put in serious effort to be social where to other people it comes naturally.

    Like


  263. and a vice suddenly grips your chest

    In other words, you’re desperate and you don’t want her to know?

    Like


  264. zorgon: Do you post on David Brin’s blog, by any chance?

    Like


  265. Do you post on David Brin’s blog

    Nope, don’t think I’ve ever heard of it before

    Like


  266. Okay, I was just curious since there’s a guy who posts under the name “zorgon the malevolent” there.

    Like


  267. 227 David,

    Sara can sometimes have diarrhea of the mouth

    Hear, hear! Yeah, you’re right.

    230 roissy

    the difference between you, dizzy, sara and dumbass truly is that she relentlessly spews her idiocy oblivious to those calling her out on it, and posts the same lies over and over like this blog is her own. you three at least have the integrity to take my beatings face on, and suffer the consequences.

    OMG roissy gave me a compliment. Allow me to gloat. It’s true though, I have never knowingly lied; and can take it like a man, but it is not true that I’ve suffered any consequences from your so-called beatings. You’re flattering yourself again. The difference between us, is you say you don’t give a shit (basically) and I really don’t.

    Like


  268. […] 9, 2008 by roissy The last time I challenged my readers to demonstrate their game skills in a hypothetical pickup situation, many commenters stepped up and offered excellent suggestions […]

    Like


  269. […] 6, 2009 by roissy The previous two times I presented a hypothetical pickup scenario and challenged you to respond with your best game, most […]

    Like


  270. […] approved career. But no-call game will work even if you’re not a bartender. Let’s say you meet a girl at your local coffee shop and you game her like you would any girl. You exchange numbers and take off. You never call her. […]

    Like