My Life Philosophy

Thought experiment: Imagine you had incontrovertible proof that there was no afterlife. No supernatural entities. No heaven or hell. No otherworld. No reincarnation. No forevermore.

No second chances.

Imagine there was no moral accounting after death of your actions on earth. No supreme being to judge your soul’s worth on the scale of divine justice. No reward or punishment. No appeal to omniscient authority in matters of good and evil.

There was only the endless black void at the moment death. The infinite silence. A complete surrender of your consciousness as the last pinprick of light extinguishes. All your thoughts, your feelings, your sensation, your memories… you… wiped away clean to merge with the great nothing.

How would you live? Given this proof of the finality of death, and of the expectation of nothing once dead, what is your personal philosophy?

At a family gathering, I played with my little niece and nephew, 4 and 3 years old respectively. They tumbled all over me, giggling and shrieking. I held them above the ground and pretended they were airplanes in heated battle with Russian MiGs or, in a nod to my niece’s female sensibilities, a pink passenger jet flying vacationers to a distant, undiscovered tropical island. They did handstands and somersaults and rammed things with their heads. I made animal noises (my monkey impression is quite good) and they would run away in mock terror, then run back to me anticipating more assaults by zoo animals. They fought over toys, yet never held grudges, at least not for long. I mentally noted that they played status games, but were completely ignorant of it. Innocent of their amoral natures.

Afterward, I drove my elderly grandmother back to her assisted living home. That’s a nice euphemism for death’s waiting room. In the community meeting area there were Scrabble boards and an organ. As if impending death wasn’t depressing enough, we bide our waning moments in pursuit of a triple word score. Old people jockey for status, too, but they make no pretense to hide it. They are artlessly cantankerous. After a certain age, when you don’t matter anymore to most people, even your own family, you stop caring what anyone thinks of you. Tit for tat.

Spend time with little children and old people. One is innocent, the other is reacquainted with innocence. Their company is a world away from the drone and ruckus of all the furious humanity in between. At the extremes you will find perspective.

My answer to the philosophical question I posed above is hedonism. It is the only rational conclusion one can draw faced with the premises I presented. When there is no second life or higher power to appease; when our lives are machines — complex misunderstood machines cunningly designed to conceal the gears and pulleys behind a facade of self-delusional sublimation, but machines nonetheless — grinding and belching the choking gritty smoke of status-whoring displays in service to our microscopic puppetmasters… well, there can be only one reasonable response to it all. It makes no sense to behave any other way unless you never questioned the lies.

Are you prepared to embrace the meaning of your ultimately inconsequential existence? If it feels good…





Comments


  1. Blithe indifference and doing nothing is just as rational. Have you read The Stranger?

    Living like you’re about to die is very difficult, if not impossible, I now see. Normality always sneaks back into the mind, and the more intense life quickly flees back to divers places. I have begun experimenting with chemicals to retrieve this feeling, as the lazy brain loses the willpower to summon it on demand.

    Few moments in life match the boundless energy and sheer potentiality that grips the mind for the brief hour or two after you take a sleeping pill but before you collapse on the pillow. I think it is a kind of ‘mini-death’. For the moment before death can be recreated chemically. Ketamine is the sweet elixer that can transport you beyond the world. Habit forming, use sparingly, for moments of the grandest and purest insight!

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  2. But, hedonism doesn’t satisfy.
    Whether there is an afterlife or not, (I believe there is) I crave satisfaction. I crave the satisfaction that in maters of family, vocation community , I can look back and forward in confidence that I gave it my best shot.

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  3. on December 4, 2008 at 12:58 pm jonathanjones02

    – What if your assumption is wrong about the afterlife?

    – What if hedonism is, in the end, deeply unfulfilling and empty and lonely? A waste? What if the difficulty and messiness and humanity and unpredictability of children and family is, in the end, more fulfulling for all involved? Second, does the defense of hedonism indicate a subconscious understanding that this may be the case?

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  4. Reading geology and pondering the concept of “deep time” give you a similar perspective. Try some of John McPhee’s essays/books in this regard.

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  5. While I’m not about to hold myself up as some great scion of religion (I am ruthlessly agnostic), I would point out that the entire argument hangs by a very flimsy thread, which is that you have incontrovertible proof that there is nothing after life.

    If there is even a sliver of uncertainty, arguments like the one about Pascal’s wager need to be entertained, and the whole world view can shift dramatically.

    For my part, I find atheism as dogmatically unsupported as I find belief; a very different yet perfectly similar kind of religious zealot, as it were. Hedonism has always struck me as unsophisticated and weak, but I am something of a stoic myself.

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  6. on December 4, 2008 at 1:03 pm Large Hadron Collider

    Hedonism satisfies – but it’s a process – A mountain of hedonism lasts a while longer than a weekend of it – but you have to keep filling the tank to keep hedonism full.

    I guess game is the easiest way to do that – or the luck of having a community and friends and that are arranged positively around your life.

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  7. Have you read books on hedonism specifically? The Libertine Reader?

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  8. on December 4, 2008 at 1:07 pm Seeking Alpha

    I’d also question the tactics of hedonism. It’s the pursuit of pleasure, but do you aim for immediate or future pleasure? I spend the majority of my day relaxed, but hardly hedonistic. If I quit work, I could return to a college lifestyle of 24/7 hedonism. On the other hand, I’d quickly run out of money, especially since quality hedonism can be expensive. Putting in an investment now can yield greater, richer pursuits of pleasure in the future.

    Also, hedonism isn’t necessarily in contradiction with morality. You can have a feast of lust, gluttony, sloth, and vanity, all without doing anything immoral.

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  9. We live in a polite society. There are rules and conventions that govern behavior. A lot of these are an attempt to create a world that is better for everyone. Some of these rules don’t do what they intend. They don’t work, they’re stifling or ineffective or deleterious . But most of these rules work to make a society that is better for everyone. You can get away with ignoring some of these rules and you will make your life better but you are then a free rider. You are a parasite of civil society. You are a welfare cheat. I write this to shame you because like shaming an unfaithful woman moves us to a better equilibrium shaming the predatory hedonist also moves us to a better equilibrium.

    What I’m saying is that people would be well served doing what they can to make your life worse.

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  10. If I thought of myself as nothing but a passing flicker of consciousness, I’d embrace hedonism as my personal philosophy and leftie-liberalism as my political philosophy, just to go with the flow of prevailing temporal powers.

    You, Roissy, aren’t a go-with-the-flow leftie-liberal. Why do you complicate your peace of mind and enjoyment of worldly pleasures by writing such fine & effective reactionary commentary? why do you give a crap?

    Belief in preserving something larger than yourself? Belief in fighitng for truth over lies?

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  11. Pascal’s wager part II: There is a chance I can talk to god. There is a chance god does what I ask. If you give me $5000 dollars I’ll put in a good word for you. With stakes as high as eternity you can’t afford to take the chance. Or you could not decide what to do with your life by division by zero.

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  12. on December 4, 2008 at 1:15 pm Seeking Alpha

    @ PA – The ultimate end point of leftie-liberalism is authoritarianism which is the enemy of hedonism. In some aspects conservative political philosophy is the philosophy of freedom, although their positions on gay marriage, abortion and drugs run counter to freedom.

    I’d assume the hedonists beliefs align closest with libertarian beliefs, although Roissy belittles them. You’re right to point out the contradiction, although I disagree that leftie-liberalism is the natural state of a hedonist.

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  13. I for one think Humanity needs to step up to the plate and obsolete death. I bet a $1 trillion life-extension Manhattan project would double or triple the lifespan and give us time for a second project that would wipe out death, and perhaps even give us a true metaphysical immortality.

    Oh wait, I forgot, we elected Obama-Messiah and his Minions of Stupidity or was that the second-coming of Clinton… It’s a hopeless anti-civilization! Ready for the clean-sweep?

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  14. Hedonism doesn’t follow. Working hard and getting the satisfactions from it, though vouchsafed to few admittedly, can be far more pleasurable than hedonism. Even having a family – again, many are disappointed – can be more satisfying. Hedonism also suffers from the problem of hedonic adaptation: you need a bigger kick each time to get the same satisfaction. OTOH, if you keep your expectations low, a la the stoics, then you’ll never be disappointed and can find happiness in the smallest things. Even the Epicureans, though their name is a by-word for hedonist, realized that the greater the pleasure, the greater the problems it brings.

    “A few friends, a garden, some cheese: these were the pleasures of Epicurus.” – Nietzsche

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  15. “Afterwards, I drove my elderly grandmother back to her assisted living home.”

    Wait a minute, you mean your family is blowing good dollars that could be spent on hedonistic good times on some useless old hag and her assisted living? You guys are a bunch of betas.

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  16. Read the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius and the Epistles of Seneca the Younger. Report back.

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  17. Pascal’s wager is BS, and God, if he exists, is smart enough to know if you really believe in him, or are just hedging your bets.

    BTW, no post on this yet? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28049776/
    Author, 9, reveals how to pick up girls

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  18. “Spend time with little children and old people. One is innocent, the other is reacquainted with innocence.”

    Well Written.

    – MPM

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  19. Seeking Alpha: The ultimate end point of leftie-liberalism is authoritarianism

    I agree 100%. Leftie-liberalism is the battering ram that Leftists use to break down traditional institutions of this country to replace them with their own.

    What I was saying, though, is that if I were a hedonist, I’d be a leftie-liberal, since this is the regime we’re living under — just to keep my pursuit of carnal pleasures as uncomplicated as possible. So in other words, a hedonist in the USSR would mouth Communist platitudes, and in Saudi Arabia he’d be all about dogs and pigs being unclean.

    This is because a hedonist is foolish to go against the grain of his powers-that-be, because that can get you fired, arrested, or socially ostracized. No more sex, drugs & rock and roll.

    So given that Roissy is running this rebellious blog suggests to me that he’s not 100% hedonist — he believes in something beyond his own pleasure.

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  20. PA, reasons not to be a leftie liberal even if you don’t care:

    – nationalists get more pussy

    – heretics are much more fun than boy scouts

    …can’t think of anything else, but that’s more than enough for me.

    SA, libertarianism as an ideology is a silly construction of nerds who think they can reduce society to a bunch of axioms. It’s no ideology for hedonists as long as it’s filled with people who couldn’t enjoy life if they wanted to.

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  21. There are other issues beyond your personal choices. Status-striving also occurs between groups. And its consequences can be serious.

    Tribes that dominate the playing field are those that develop esprit de corps and ruthlessly punish free riders and turnstile jumpers among their own kind.

    Tribes that achieve dominance can be relatively benevolent, as with the United States or Imperial Britain, but more often they act like the Romans, the Mongols or the Arabs back in their Caliphate days.

    Being at the mercy of a rival tribe is no fun. Just ask a Native American, African-American slave, or opium-addicted Chinaman.

    If you don’t want your neighbors from the next valley over pissing on your head, it is better to behave as if God hates free riders too. There might not be a Heaven, but there damn sure is a Hell, and plenty of unfortunate souls in our sad little world are living in it right now.

    Hedonism, if taken seriously enough, will have us joining those poor Hell-bound bastards pretty damn quick.

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  22. Spending a lot of time with children will also prepare you for successfully dealing with women. Not just because women love guys “who are great with kids”, but mostly because children and women behave similarly, and they see you through similar eyes.

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  23. It’s no ideology for hedonists as long as it’s filled with people who couldn’t enjoy life if they wanted to.

    Every ideology develops an intricate system of nitpicky rules and axioms once it gets big enough. Look at the current state of PUA Game for example. Pretty hedonistic, but the current amount of sacred texts, axioms, prophets, gurus, schools of thought and intricate rules can be mind boggling to the newbie.

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  24. @SA

    “The ultimate end point of leftie-liberalism is authoritarianism ”

    This seems to be a popular misconception. Liberals don’t love government, they simply realize it’s necessary for a healthy society, and prefer that the government be run effectively – which often means more investment than the right seems to be comfortable with. Of course, things can always run more efficiently. As for authority, they usually hate it.

    Regarding Roissy’s post, I think you live Hell or Heaven on earth. You can spew venom your whole life, and you will just get it back in your face; you will be miserable: Hell. The opposite is also true. Hedonism can fit into either, depending on how you view the term.

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  25. Pupu is speechless. This one hits Pupu hard. Pupu could have said just about the same thing except in less perfect English and some additional references to different kinds of animals.

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  26. Shrike’s send up of hedonism:

    You dedicate your life to the pursuit of pleasure. No over-indulgence, mind you, but knowing that your body is a pleasure machine, you treat it carefully in order to get the most out of it. Golf as well as booze, Philadelphia Jack O’Brien and his chest-weights as well as Spanish dancers. Nor do you neglect the pleasures of the mind. You fornicate under pictures by Matisse and Picasso, you drink from Renaissance glassware, and often you spend an evening beside the fireplace with Proust and an apple. Alas, after much good fun the day comes when you realize that soon you must die. You keep a stiff upper lip and decide to give a last party. You invite all your old mistresses, trainers, artists and boon companions. The guests are dressed in black, the waiters are coons, the table is a coffin carved for you by Eric Gill. You serve caviar and blackberries and licorice candy and coffee without cream. After the dancing girls have finished, you get to your feet and call for silence in order to explain your philosophy of life. ‘Life,’ you say, ‘is a club where they won’t stand for squawks, where they deal you only one hand and you must sit in. So even if the cards are cold and marked by the hand of fate, play up, play up like a gentleman and a sport. Get tanked, grab what’s on the buffet, use the girls upstairs, but remember, when you throw box cars, take the curtain like a dead game sport, don’t squawk.’…

    I won’t even ask you what you think of such an escape. You haven’t the money, nor are you stupid enough to manage it. But we come now to one that should suit you much better…

    The rest of the chapter has send ups of granola agrarianism, South Seas primitivism and, best of all, high aestheticism:

    Art! Be an artist or a writer. When you are cold, warm yourself before the flaming tints of Titian, when you are hungry, nourish yourself with great spiritual foods by listening to the noble periods of Bach, the harmonies of Brahms and the thunder of Beethoven. Do you think there is anything in the fact that their names all begin with B? But don’t take a chance, smoke a 3 B pipe, and remember these immortal lines: When to the suddenness of melody the echo parting falls the failing day. What a rhythm! Tell them to keep their society whores and pressed duck with oranges. For you l’art vivant, the living art, as you call it. Tell them that you know that your shoes are broken and that there are pimples on your face, yes, and that you have buck teeth and a club foot, but that you don’t care, for to-morrow they are playing Beethoven’s last quartets in Carnegie Hall and at home you have Shakespeare’s plays in one volume.

    I’d recommend that everyone, including Roissy, read the whole of Nathaniel West’s Miss Lonelyhearts.

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  27. Hedonism is wrong simply because it gets you nowhere, and it’s artificial once you see beyon what is directly infront of you. It is only right if you look at “stage one”. Watching TV can cause you to be happy in the momement but in the end it was a waste of time, you have heard the story before.

    My philosophy of life is this:

    The purpose of life is understanding. Everyone has a duty to mankind to be the best self they can be. A duty to advance our civilization technologically and solve the mystery that is our universe. We can’t all be Richard Feynman but we can all contribute to this ultimate goal indirectly or directly. Find out where you fit on this scheme and you will find a purpose and with that happiness.

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  28. God has given everyone of us the way to know what he wants us to do. If God were a pervert he would want us to do what hurts and avoid what feels good.

    But He is not a pervert. It is God’s will that we do what feels good and refuse to do what feels bad. That is the difference between good and bad.

    When we die He asks “Did you do mostly things that felt Good or Bad?” If Good he sends you to a place where things feel really good forever. If Bad, he sends you to that place where everything feels really Bad forever.

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  29. Read the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius and the Epistles of Seneca the Younger. Report back.

    I loved Meditations.

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  30. on December 4, 2008 at 2:13 pm Seeking Alpha

    @ jaakkeli – Libertarianism reduces society to a bunch of axioms? I don’t even know what that means, although it sounds pretty nerdy.

    If there are rules to it, I guess I’m a bad one then. I thought it was simply: all impingements on personal freedom are immoral. Sounds pretty simple to me.

    A hedonist wants freedom to pursue his pleasures. Both conservatives and liberals restrict that freedom.

    Sounds like you have more of a grudge than an actual reason.

    @ PA – I see what you meant and I agree.

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  31. I find it interesting you present this as a novel and somewhat alien “thought experiment” when it’s precisely what I believe happens after death (i.e., nothing). And that your conclusion happens to be what might be the biggest fallacy re: atheism, namely that without belief in God, there is no need for morals or restraint.

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  32. PA, brilliant observation.

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  33. Very interesting post Roissy, and comes at a time when I personally reflect on the Nature of Existence this Time of Year. It has been six years since my mother has left this world; a decade since my dad has. They both died during the Fall.

    Methinks you are a fellow Archer like me, R, or at the very least, you have lots of the 9th Sign in your makeup. Only Archers have and nuture that burning desire to tell it T I Z, come what may, LOL.

    And, like a few have hinted, I don’t think you’re a stompdown Atheist, Roissy. Yore way too altruistic for that. Another trait of Archers, we tend to be big on personal charity. I’ve seen you go out of your way to help men when you could have directly profitted from it. A cold rational Atheist would have.

    I’m a Believer. I operate by Faith. That said, my Faith has been shaken several times, and hve found myself asking questions lik you have above. For me, to conclude what you have would ultimately mean that there is no point in going on, since All Roads Fade To Black anyway.

    And, my Faith is tested by Game, something which I embrace, *with Criticism*. It raises all manner of questions that are difficult for me to answer, difficult for me to reconcile fully. Ah, the wonderful Contradictions of being Human.

    But no, I don’t see you as simply a ruthless Atheist out to get your Freak on, Roissy. No doubt, yo are a Rogue. But one with a bit more heart than you’re willing to admit.

    Just my two cents.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  34. Of course hedonism is ultimately unfullfilling, all life is, because life is based on the external contingencies, a thousand things going a thousand correct ways. Roissy, I’m sure, doesn’t think it is ultimately fulfilling. It can’t be.

    You know what can be ultimately fulfilling? Chemicals that alter the brain. Eventually there will be drugs that eliminate all bad emotions, social anxiety and everything else. For now, the end place of hedonism is heroin, because hedonism is based on pleasure, an emotion, and nothing can alter emotions with the potency of chemicals. In the future this will be all the truer!

    Russell Brand described heroin as the ‘meaning of life’, the end point, in which dwelt no more questions or questing. “Heroin contextualises everything else as meaningless… All of us, I think, have the vague feeling ‘I want something’. And what heroin does when you first start it is tell you what that something is.’

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  35. “Hedonism is wrong simply because it gets you nowhere”

    Lets Aristotlise this statement:

    1. Hedonism gets you nowhere.
    2. Something that gets you nowhere is wrong.
    3. Therefore, hedonism is wrong.

    1 is wrong, hedonism leads to beautiful hidden valleys of life. 2 is obviously wrong. 3. Premises are false, conclusion is worthless.

    “The purpose of life is understanding. Everyone has a duty to mankind to be the best self they can be.”

    Understanding means nothing. I understand most aspects of life, I think, and it hasn’t enlivened my sense of purpose much. Or to paraphrase Thursday, ‘understanding life is more disillusioning than not’. And the phrase ‘duty to mankind’ is, again, meaningless when interrogated further.

    Anyone in any vague and philosophical confusion about what death actually is should view Shelley Kagan’s lectures on the subject. He also has a good quasi mathematical discussion of how much ‘pleasure points’ or some variant one should aim for out of life before throwing in the towel. See ‘How to live given the certainty of death’ especially.

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  36. I actually do believe all that. But think about what ‘believe’ means. When I ponder such questions, I conclude that, yes, there is no heaven, no god. But all the gigantic rest of the time, when I’m not so pondering, but improvising my way through life and chance, do I ‘believe’ this still?

    Suppose ‘hedonism’ is the behaviour that most coherently follows from atheism, and I am an atheist. Does that help? I suggest very little. Because although I agree intellectually there is no god, I remain a weak man. If I am, say, too cowardly to become a true hedonist, the most sincerely held atheism cannot alter that.

    I don’t think your ‘philosophy’ is the relevant causal motor of your hedonist praxis. I think it’s your rationalisation of it, just as theology is the rationalisation of fear.

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  37. Very few people are true hedonists. The ones who are, were fortunate enough to be very wealthy, and cover their tracks very well.

    Nobody who isn’t willing to commit acts of non consensual violence, or at least imposition against others is a true hedonist since the plain truth is that these acts are some of the most purely pleasurable known to man.

    If you do have the balls for it, Roissy, try sex with a horse, and get back to us. That would be an interesting post.

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  38. on December 4, 2008 at 3:13 pm ironrailsironweights

    If, indeed, the end of life brings oblivion, there’s only one thing to do: enjoy the GNP while you can!

    Peter

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  39. on December 4, 2008 at 3:15 pm Wounded Animal

    Roissy,

    The existence of children and old people for you to enjoy being around requires an ethic of support and protection of the vulnerable. I don’t see where you get that framework from hedonism. Even if you say you are just putting up with children and old people to keep the species going, you need a ton of rules that support the multi-generational family structure. Such rules demand things like suppression of desires, postponing consumption, etc., all at odds with hedonism.

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  40. “Afterward I drove my elderly grandmotherback to the assisted living center and I seduced her. What the hell-bitch be lookin’ good,that turkey neck waddling…”

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  41. “The philosophy of hedonism means little to lovers of pleasure. They have no inclination to read philosophy, or to write it.” – Cooley

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  42. If Roissy has incontrovertible proof, then so does everybody.

    Nice society we’ve got then. I do believe I’d live like a Democratic congressman. Say Rangel for example. Laws would be for you, not me.

    The US would be like Saudi Arabia, minus the calls to prayer. The law would be too busy getting their share to stop me. Would you take a bullet for chump change? Your neighborhood cop wouldn’t either.

    Our Navy would be the pirates, not fight them. Welcome to hell.

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  43. I don’t believe in an afterlife, a judgment day or any magic gods that have power over the universe.

    With that in mind, I don’t see hedonism as a logical consequence of that. In fact, the only thing I see logically following from my belief in an atheistic existence is that all life philosophies are equally as valid because there is no ultimate meaning by which they can be compared.

    Life philosophy is only of consequence in a system of values or morals. Since I think the whole of existence is amoral and devoid of a higher meaning, whatever goes.

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  44. Zoo, you’re trying to be funny, but that is an interesting point.

    If it’s all about the pleasure then why not take the easy gratification from grannies?

    …or grand kids?

    The thing about pleasure is that it’s relative. Hedonism is also one of those philosophies that one embraces themselves, hoping that others around them will not.

    Someone could take great pleasure in stabbing someone, then wanking with their blood as lubrication…in the name of hedonism, with no regard for being punished in the afterlife.

    Someone who either doesn’t believe in God, or may believe or hope but not assume that there is an afterlife, doesn’t have to be a hedonist to be present in the moment.

    I’ve always found hedonism childish at best, and terribly dangerous at worst.

    The Wiccan saying is much more sane, even if it’s a little naive: “An it harm none, do as thou wilt.”

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  45. Nicole: If you do have the balls for it….try sex with a horse, and get back to us. That would be an interesting post.

    I did see a woman have sex with a horse once, sucking it off until it came on her face. It looked like a gallon of milk was being dumped into her mouth. That was an interesting day.

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  46. “Nobody who isn’t willing to commit acts of non consensual violence, or at least imposition against others is a true hedonist since the plain truth is that these acts are some of the most purely pleasurable known to man.”

    I wouldn’t have agreed with you before I had been in combat. Now, I enjoy the hunt and the kill.

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  47. Very interesting thoughts. It would be very limited thinking to believe this form is all there is.

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  48. DF: You saw this live, in person? Why on earth did she do that?

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  49. Nicole: Someone could take great pleasure in stabbing someone, then wanking with their blood as lubrication…in the name of hedonism, with no regard for being punished in the afterlife.

    There is no contradiction between lawfulness and hedonism. Hedonists are law-abiding because of legal sanctions. No minute’s pleasure can compensate the horror of being incarcerated and anally raped for years.

    (If you want to know how hedonists would act in the absence of laws, imagine that a meteor is going to strike us in a few hours.)

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  50. The strong do what they can, and the weak suffer what they must. -Thucydides

    In the spirit of ugly truths: For everyone who condemns roissy’s life philosophy or resultant behavior, my next question is: What are you going to do to stop it? Nothing, because you can’t. You can’t force him, and you can’t persuade him, and you can’t force anyone who can force him, or persuade anyone who can persuade him.

    The proper response to not liking what roissy believes or expresses is not to post a condemnation here. It’s to go lift some weights, learn to fight, get a promotion, become a better storyteller, learn to be a better salesman, and to otherwise accumulate the strength to fight back against the influence – if in fact after doing all that, you don’t believe it. Which is not impossible but is unlikely.

    Grow a pair, get outside your head, and exert some influence on the world.

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  51. Having children gives you immortality.

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  52. Tsurupettan, law abiding definitely does contradict with hedonism. The concern for a hedonist is not the law, or harm that might come to others as a result of their actions…only whether or not they are likely to be caught.

    …and if a meteor was going to strike in a few hours, I would probably spend that time cuddled up with my family and cats.

    Screwing or killing anyone in that situation, would seem kind of pointless. Wallowing in warmth and love in general would seem to me like a more fun way to spend my last moments.

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  53. Reserved, just because someone is critical of his views or offers a different perspective doesn’t mean they’re condemning him…even if he himself believes that they are.

    Also, some of us are already strong people…and a few of us have in some way, already been where he’s standing, and passed through the fire without destroying ourselves or others without cause.

    At the moment he or you may believe that we’re stupid, but well, I used to think people who told me that I needed to stop fearing being vulnerable, 20+ years ago were stupid too.

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  54. SA: If there are rules to it, I guess I’m a bad one then. I thought it was simply: all impingements on personal freedom are immoral. Sounds pretty simple to me.

    See, now you’re trying to reduce it all into axioms.

    What about children, crazies, senile old people..? Animals? And “personal freedom”? Eg. smoking limits other people’s freedom not to inhale second-hand smoke. The simplest word trickery will make *anything* immoral in your society. Real societies have very complex systems of judges, laws and politics that can evaluate the evidence on whether the smoke spread by a cigarette smoked in private is significant enough to punish people for smoking in private. How does the libertarian society deal with this?

    Humans are just too complex for anyone to truly reduce morality to a set of rules. In the end any system will have to heavily rely on a living human’s moral judgement – and who the system puts in that position is as important (or more important) than the actual formal rules.

    I vastly favour personal freedom in my own politics, but the lack of recognition for the complexity of humanity I see in doctrinarian libertarians is extremely creepy.

    A hedonist wants freedom to pursue his pleasures. Both conservatives and liberals restrict that freedom.

    What if you get pleasure out of imposing your will on other people? Such people – most people – won’t be hedonists as libertarians.

    Like


  55. Meschach: Why on earth did she do that?

    Maybe she’s got bills to pay. Maybe she has a fetish for being watched. Maybe horse cock was the only tool that could satisfy her sexual desire. Maybe she’s a hedonist….wait, what?

    The hell if I know and I didn’t stick around to ask her questions but imagine that conversation.

    Me: So miss what motivated you to fuck a horse?

    Her: girgle, girgle, girgle, arrggghh *spitting up horse semen*

    Like


  56. on December 4, 2008 at 4:34 pm Seeking Alpha

    Like all philosophies, it’s a guideline, a goal, not a strict doctrine. You’re really uptight about all this, huh?

    Like


  57. Very interesting thoughts. It would be very limited thinking to believe this form is all there is.

    I don’t think it’s limited thinking to think that this form is all there is. I think it’s scary as hell thinking that people don’t want to consider. Life is just a constant struggle to distract oneself from the inevitable reality that you are going to die. Some distract themselves through career, hobbies, hedonism, religious theories of afterlifes. Some look for forms of immortality, which is why I think are two primary drives are survival and reproduction, both of which can be reduced to one single drive, the drive for immortality. The drive for fame is another form of immortality. We’ll take any form of immortality we can get. Believing there is more to life than this form is not inherently noble, it’s just one of many selfish ways we are driven to chase immortality.

    Like


  58. If there was no afterlife, then morally I would still be living the life I live.

    Any restraints and obligations I feel regarding how I live my life are financial, not moral.

    So maybe if I work hard in this life i will be rewarded by being reincarnated as a monkey at the Belize zoo. That would be a perfect existence.

    Like


  59. You hit is straight on. Hedonism is the best way to live if no god exists. Of course it isn’t new, it is the same exact wisdom that we see in Ecclesiastes: eat drink and be merry for tomorrow you die. More recently, Sartre had called for some sort of limited hedonism wherein one helps the community to make one feel better, and there have been plenty of variations on that theme, cf The Humanist Manifesto.

    For the theist, though, living for God by being as good as possible (“good” is more broad than you might think) is the only way to live.

    Like


  60. Assuming there is no Final Accounting, Judgement, etc. and we are just all intricate machines, then we’ve reached the edge of the Uncertain. Yes, your genes are selfish. This means that all of your ‘altruism’ is just part of a wider strategy for genetic continuation. The cat is out of the bag! I *know* that my genes are being selfish. The part of my soul that says “be kind to this person” or “show mercy and compassion” is now met with the full-force wrath of knowledge. No, this urge is not some noble piece of the human soul. It’s nothing more that striving for the collective good. It is the ultimate realization that while there is a collective good, that my interests and those of the collective good are in fact often unaligned. Yes, evolution is geared to hunt out the ‘cheaters’, the uncooperatives. But now there is no system to keep them in check. The incentive is squarely set at ‘get away with as much as you can’. Without cultural forces to keep the margin of cheat at bay, as more people awaken to consciousness and we come at odds with each other, there is nothing to keep society from unraveling. ‘Wrong’ is only avoided relative to consequences.

    Take Dick Cheney for example. There’s a whole heap of people who label him evil. But in the ruthless biomechanics view outlined by Roissy, there is no ‘evil’. Now, sure there’s the more secular argument of ‘war lowers our national standing, the economy is down, etc’. But it doesn’t work. He’s not going to jail. He’s keeping the money. So why wouldn’t he? In a mechanicalist world, if the personal benefit is great enough, fuck the rest of the world. There’s no reason not to. They’re mad because he’s getting away with it and they can’t.

    See the loop here? That whole ‘alphas get away with shit’ thing? ‘Betas’ are still part of the payors of the common-good system. Once you know that you shouldn’t feel bad about anything, what’s to hold you back? Force is the ultimate arbiter. Taken to it’s logical conclusion, the Holocaust was a good thing for those perps who were able to get away. There is no easier money than walking into someone’s house, having them carted away and then taking their stuff. But even the mention of such an idea is so patently anathema, that it’s difficult to get anyone to even entertain the conjecture.

    I personally don’t believe in a purely mechanistic world like that, but surely the largest idiots in the world are the atheists that refute it.

    Like


  61. Anonymous,

    No one ever said hedonism is better for everyone, it’s just best for those who can practice it well. There is little justification to do likewise in the absence of god. You can however make decent arguments against atheism using hedonism as an example.

    Like


  62. OT, but … I really should read my first book about Game. What’s a good one to start with? All recomendations appreciated.

    Like


  63. Michael

    For an introduction to the whole thing, start with The Game itself by Neil Strauss. An astonishing book in and of itself, regardless of subject matter.

    For pure PUA techniques, start with Mystery Method. An interesting, elegant book that reads like it was written by a mad-genius scientist brandishing a mathematical proof before an awestruck audience.

    And finally, for someone who enjoys the finer, more aesthetic things, Robert Greene’s majesterial Art of Seduction. Life as art, a beautiful work.

    Like


  64. on December 4, 2008 at 6:54 pm monohechomierda

    Someone who spends his time prowling the streets of DC knows fuckall about hedonism. Just sayin’

    Like


  65. On one hand, enlightened hedonism is not practically much different from living a morally righteous life. On the other hand, complete amorality is something most normal people *cannot* go back to as adults even if they intellectually agreed with some form of amoralist philosophy.

    Like


  66. OT, but … I really should read my first book about Game. What’s a good one to start with?

    michael, here is a list i compiled for one of my reader mailbags:

    Mystery Method Venusian Arts e-book (still the bible as far as I’m concerned. start with this one. mystery was the first to rigorously apply evo-bio to the art of courtship and flow chart it into an accessible system that any guy can use. some would say ross jeffries was the first “guru”, but i haven’t found his stuff to be as scientifically informed. neurolinguistic programming as written about by robert cialdini in his seminal book “influence: the psychology of persuasion” is on shaky empirical ground, though i’m open to the idea it may have some merit.)

    David DeAngelo’s cocky/funny series and interviews with the gurus (don’t be put off by the heavy-handed marketing, his core stuff is solid. much great how-to advice for passing common female shit tests, which is usually the beta’s biggest initial stumbling block.)

    Pickup 101’s Fearless First Impressions, Attraction Secrets and Art of Rapport DVDs (again, heavily marketed, but you can download the DVD programs for free from bittorrent. lance mason’s body language DVD is a gem. he really gets into the nitty-gritty of everything from how to sit to how to make a grand alpha entrance in a bar.)

    Stephane Hemon’s Ideagasms Squirting and Girlfriend Training Program (he’s a bit airy-fairy new agey, but his understanding of female psychology is excellent. you’ll notice some of the “inner game” guys, like stephane, who emphasize the ideals of love and yin/yang polarity, have unkind things to say about the older school by-the-book tactics-and-negs PUAs like mystery and strauss. ignore it. it’s just a business strategy to separate themselves from the pack. “lover of women” anti-player-lifestyle seducers like stephane and zan are essentially using the same courtship strategies that Mystery outlined in his e-book. they have simply dressed it up in more flowery, romanticized language. nevertheless, their thoughts on inner game — what used to be called manliness — are beneficial to rounding out a former beta and keeping him from becoming too cynical.)

    The Real Social Dynamics and Stylelife internet forums (stylelife academy is neil strauss’ baby)

    Badboy ebook and DVDs (badboy is the rare “natural” who can explain to betas his secret of success. he’s an interesting character in his own right, too. a croat war vet who got injured and walks with a limp. get his DVDs. you really have to see his body language in video to appreciate his style.)

    Carlos Xuma and Zan DVDs (i like these guys. they are a bit older than the typical PUA — early to late 30s — and they bring a mature man’s sensibility and wisdom to seduction and insight into the female mind.)

    there are other books and videos that maybe the readers here can expound on, but this is what i came up with off the top of my head. like i wrote above, for a quick immersion into what exactly IS game you should start with Mystery’s (erik von markovic) e-book “mystery method”.

    Like


  67. What’s wrong with the comments on this blog?
    Why is every one so thoughtful and moralistic?

    This blog is about pick-up and the related world-wide, not about failed PUA’s rationalizing their failure as high morals.

    It’s an American cultural thing this holier-than-though stuff. FWIW 90% of people in Europe would agree with this post.

    Like


  68. With apologizes to the Bard:
    ===============================
    When forty winters shall besiege thy brow
    And dig deep trenches in thy beauty’s field,
    Thy youth’s proud livery, much gazed upon now,
    Will be tattered weed of small worth held.

    When being asked, where all thy beauty lies,
    where all the treasure of thy lusty days,
    to say within thy own deep sunken eyes
    were an all eating shame and thriftless praise.

    How much better use thy beauty served
    If thou could say, “This fair child of mind shall
    sum my count, and make my old excuse”,
    Thus proving, his beauty, by succession thine.

    This were to be new made when thou art old
    And see thy blood warm when thou feelst it cold.

    ======================================

    My philosophy: Happiness comes from giving others happiness.
    Self gratification is lonely and boring.

    To really abuse the the Bard:

    If this be beta and upon me proved,
    I have never writ, nor have I ever screwed.

    Like


  69. on December 4, 2008 at 7:27 pm Steve Johnson

    Gunner:

    I write this to shame you because like shaming an unfaithful woman moves us to a better equilibrium shaming the predatory hedonist also moves us to a better equilibrium.

    What I’m saying is that people would be well served doing what they can to make your life worse.

    Don’t you think that Roissy knows that what you’re saying in the first paragraph is true?

    Shame doesn’t work on men if you’re trying to shame them into giving up pussy. Shame does work on women to force them to fuck and commit to men they find slightly sub-optimal. That’s why western civilization was much better off before the sexual revolution and why only slut shaming (and probably some sort of ban on paying women for working) will work to restore it.

    Other posters have well described the end outcome of men taking the “fuck everyone else, I’m in it for me” attitude.

    MB,

    “The Game” by Neil Strauss is very interesting and has some great stories in it. Unfortunately, to sell the book to a mass audience (or to get it past the gatekeepers), he tells several stories with cautionary endings about how game is bad for the soul.

    Like


  70. i neglected to mention “the game” by neil strauss. this was an oversight. it’s an entertaining book in its own right, and you should probably start with this one because it nicely details the characters and the pickup lifestyle of the late 90s/early 2000s as this subculture was beginning to take root. the insider account of the force of nature that is Mystery is worth the read alone. neil tosses the conventional culturists a bone toward the end of the book when he describes the supposed dark side of game, but that was just a move to position himself into respectability for mainstream book interviews. the truth is, neil continued gaming after he published his book and started a business called stylelife academy dedicated to the game.

    but for nuts and bolts game theory and practical advice, you have to read mystery method. “the game” is a brisk biographical read and cultural touchstone, but it doesn’t deliver much useful information pertinent to running actual game.

    flyte:
    An interesting, elegant book that reads like it was written by a mad-genius scientist brandishing a mathematical proof before an awestruck audience.

    lol. you know, when i met mystery, this is exactly the impression i got. he’s a high-rpm revved-up quasi-nerd genius and charismatic attention whore extraordinaire with a penchant for flowcharting human behavior and a whiff of the rakish fop about him. if neil strauss is the disciplined business tycoon of game, mystery is the eccentric rebel artist of the movement.

    Like


  71. Thanks for the recs. Time for me to start exploring the literature.

    Like


  72. on December 4, 2008 at 8:00 pm Dave from Hawaii

    Here’s a online site…for free.

    Read all the archives, and it pretty much amounts to a book’s worth of content on game.

    http://realitymethod.com/

    Like


  73. MB,

    The other guys have covered the more scientific, theory-heavy stuff, so I’m going to make a suggestion in the opposite direction, try two books, The Art of Mackin’ and Play or be Played by Tariq “King Flex” Nasheed. It doesn’t go into evo bio at all, the language is a little hip-hop, but sound advice from a natural with a lot of game.

    Like


  74. MB, start with The Game by Neil Strauss just because it’s a very well-written book. It’s a page turner even if you aren’t particularly that interested in Game. I could still probably describe some of the scenes in it in great detail and I read it like 3 years ago now.

    Mystery Method is much better for nuts and bolts, but the writing is pretty sloppy I think.

    Like


  75. One thing you do gleam from Game is how dedicated some of these guys have been. The time and consistency of the effort speaks volumes. There’s that whole thing where Mystery says “Quit your job.” I didn’t do it, but I knew someone who did. He got truly good.

    Like


  76. Animus saidThere’s that whole thing where Mystery says “Quit your job.” I didn’t do it, but I knew someone who did. He got truly good
    Quit your job for pu*Sy.
    😯

    *dead faint*

    Wow
    men really are different.

    Like


  77. The question posed in this blog entry doesn’t make any sense. If there is no god, no First Cause, then there is no reason for our existence, no purpose. We just are, mere random noise. There is no objective value system, no correct or incorrect way to behave. It doesn’t make sense to be a hedonist in such a world, because in such a world there is no such thing as sense or reason or logic or hedonism for that matter. It’s all just random noise.

    Logic and reason, right and wrong, yes and no, all require teleology or a transcendent order beyond the material world. All civilizations in human history have understood this elementary point.

    Like


  78. Strauss’s later _The StyleLife Challenge_ is the actual 30-day plan, while the accompanying _StyleLife Diaries_ are a compilation of his ten best pick-up tales.

    @Chicnoir

    Quitting your job is nothing. At a bare minimum, one needs to spend every single minute outside one’s job on this. Trying to influence such a naturally chaotic system is a big task, for example, of 50 women you approach, it is normal for 10-15 to have boyfriends. According to Mystery, approaching 50 women is a NORMAL week. There is just so much that can go wrong, get in the way, that total dedication needs to be the norm.

    Like


  79. on December 4, 2008 at 8:56 pm Dave from Hawaii

    Quit your job for pu*Sy.
    😯

    *dead faint*

    Wow
    men really are different.

    Having spent all this time reading this blog and all the commentary…and you only understand this now?

    The only reason for men to work at a job beyond self-sustenance is to be able to get pussy.

    It is why men built technology and civilization in the first place…TO GET THE PUSSY!

    That’s why it’s called the “biological IMPERATIVE.

    Take a step back and analyze most men’s actions. We are all driven to achieve social status, material wealth and power to have the means to get the highest possible-valued pussy we can.

    Because, breaking it all down, pussy is nothing more than the objective means of reproducing — passing on our genetic material.

    On a basic biological level, nothing else matters.

    This is why you are so right in the other thread when you talked about Camille Paglia’s observation that women will rule over men.

    Of course women rule over men…you have all the pussy!

    This is also the very reason why you have this very post from Roissy about his view on the meaning of life!

    In this day and age, when sex has been almost completely disassociated with procreation, when the laws of the land are written and enforced to punish and enslave men who dare to actually procreate and pass on their genes to offspring, society has taken away much of the incentive for men to truly define and give greater meaning to our existence – to achieve immortality through reproduction.

    Like


  80. word…

    if it wouldn’t land me in jail, I would straight up lodge bullets in several domes each and every day.

    Like


  81. A few recommendations:

    Glover “No More Mr Nice Guy” (book)
    More self-help than game – begin by reading this if you at any point in your life have had tendencies to act like the nice guy.

    David DeAngelo “Double Your Dating” OR “Attraction isn’t a Choice” (Ebook)
    Every PUA out there has read at least one ebook by David D. A good introductory read. Dude’s more of a nerd & a marketer than a player, so don’t waste your time on his other products.

    David Deida “The way of the superior man” (book)
    Deals more with the concept of masculinity rather than game per se, but I’d say that this is essential reading.

    Lovedrop (Venusian Arts) – “Revelation” (ebook)
    This is a revised version of the the Mystery Method published this year. It’s written by Lovedrop – not Mystery – which actually is good thing. Lovedrop is an *amazing* teacher of this stuff (yes, better than Mystery).

    Real Social Dynamics “Foundations” (DVDs)
    Overall, this is by far the best DVD set on game out there. Tragically, I’ve seen almost all DVD products that are out on the market (and even some unpublished stuff – shitty seminar recordings from Mystery’s early days and such) and this is one of the few products that I actually can recommend people to buy. If you’ve read one book by David Deangelo and watched Foundations, you have all the information you need. After that, it’s all about applying it to your daily life.

    Joseph W South, David Clare, Franco “Practical Female Psychology for the Practical Man” (book)
    A book written by men, not boys. The authors, whose names should be familiar to anybody who frequents mASF, are all in their 40s. They know their shit. At the moment, I’d say that this is *the* book on handling relationships.

    Like


  82. While Budhhists believe that all desire is suffering , perhaps Hedonist without Ego is an option worth exploring.

    I would like to add the following …

    The happiest man in the world is thought to be Matthieu Ricard, 60, a French academic-turned-Buddhist monk whos level of mind control is astonishing and the upbeat impulses in his brain are off the scale, as measured by scientists.

    [url]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/matthieu-ricard-meet-mr-happy-436652.html[/url]

    Like


  83. Dave I was joking but I do think quitting your job is a bit much. I’m sure there is a female version of that. Maybe going bankrupt for unnecessary plastic surgery is the equivalent.

    The only reason for men to work at a job beyond self-sustenance is to be able to get pussy.
    I’ve tried explaining this ^^^to other women but some of them don’t agree or don’t get it.
    I can recall having a debate with a lesbian about how women can control/moderate the behavior of men with pussy. I told her that young men are like those little dogs you see in the circus who jump thru the ring of fire. Young men will do the most dangerous things for a pat on the head & female affection. She didn’t get it, I guess because she uses female logic to explain/understand male behavior.

    It is why men built technology and civilization in the first place…TO GET THE PUSSY!
    *shakes head in agreement*

    EurosabaTrying to influence such a naturally chaotic system is a big task
    true
    As is changing one’s self.

    Like


  84. on December 4, 2008 at 9:20 pm Dave from Hawaii

    Dave I was joking but I do think quitting your job is a bit much.

    Perhaps it sounds ludicrous on first thought…but for a man who has had no mating success, and who is painfully and acutely self-aware of his failure at fulfilling his prime impetus…what’s the point of working at a job that is not getting any closer to achieving fulfillment of his biological imperative?

    Good for him.

    No man ever went to his grave hoping for “He was a Dedicated Worker” or “The Best Employee” engraved on his epitaph.

    Like


  85. Dave,
    You refer to what men need from women as “pussy”. I would name it “compassion, understanding, touch, and emotional acceptance. Men are unwilling to ask for “compassion,……” .” so they ask for “pussy” Women need “it” too, but we can receive all the above from each other. Thus, women don’t need men as much as vice versa.

    Like


  86. Quit your job for pu*Sy.
    😯

    *dead faint*
    Wow
    men really are different.

    Like always, you can’t wrap your head around it. It’s not about pussy. Go watch or read “Fight Club”.

    Like


  87. on December 4, 2008 at 9:29 pm Dave from Hawaii

    Maybe going bankrupt for unnecessary plastic surgery is the equivalent.

    Nah. Men can always go get another job.

    The equivalent would be a “you go girl” career woman realizing that she was on the verge of declining fertility and youthful attractiveness (around 26 – 27), and deciding to quit being a competitive, ball busting bitch and decided to learn the feminine and domestic arts to catch herself a rich and successful husband to complement him in creating a family, rather than continue to compete with men in the world of work.

    I look back on my life choices, and I can’t tell you how naive I was when I got married at 25.

    I thank god everyday that in my youthful naivete, I married a woman who is unabashedly feminine, proud of the quality of her domestic work and a great cook.

    Maybe I recognized those things as great mate attributes subconsciously, but at the time, all I could think about was “the pussy” and how marriage was the all-access pass.

    Needless to say, I’ve lived and learned how young and dumb I truly was.

    Like


  88. You refer to what men need from women as “pussy”. I would name it “compassion, understanding, touch, and emotional acceptance. Men are unwilling to ask for “compassion,……” .” so they ask for “pussy”

    right. You can add the need for validation to this, the need to feel powerful and in control. Men used to be able to get it from dominating other men, but that’s much less accessible now, so scoring women does it. Temporarily, anyway, until you discover you don’t actually control the woman either. It’s very difficult to control another person over the long run without the threat of violence. I mean, it can happen, but it’s very difficult, you usually have to give way on something you don’t want to give way on.

    Also, Roissy is not a hedonist, he’s seeking validation for insecurity and resentment. G Manifesto strikes me as a true hedonist, Roosh might be developing into one. Perhaps if Roissy is able to get over whatever is pissing him off, he’ll relax, enjoy himself, and be a hedonist.

    Like


  89. “Quit your job for pu*Sy.”

    This would never fly with me. Not that wanting to get girls and all their parts is pathetic, but I wouldn’t be interested in anyone who was unemployed and had nothing to offer but game.

    Like


  90. ” in a nod to my niece’s female sensibilities, a pink passenger jet flying vacationers to a distant, undiscovered tropical island. ”

    aww, that was sweet!

    Like


  91. The only reason for men to work at a job beyond self-sustenance is to be able to get pussy.

    Or to buy PlayStation 3 with HDTVs for Gran Turismo. Or to buy a Nissan GT-R to fufill the dream of driving like Gran Turismo. Hell, I don’t go to work to score pussy. I go to work to pay for the shit that I want to buy, and I’d argue that I’ve gotten more value from my photography equipment than from pussy.

    Like


  92. aww, that was sweet!

    I remember when my niece and nephew were around that age and willing to swallow any imaginary story that I could come up with. Eh, at least the kids still hug me when I come home from work…

    Like


  93. on December 4, 2008 at 10:18 pm Dave from Hawaii

    right. You can add the need for validation to this, the need to feel powerful and in control. Men used to be able to get it from dominating other men, but that’s much less accessible now, so scoring women does it.

    What a crock of feminist drivel.

    We want validation that we are worthy and desired sperm donors for beautiful women’s offspring.

    The human species is one in which men display their worthiness, and the female chooses. When a woman we are having sex with acts in a way that gives us validation, affirmation and approval, she is merely reinforcing to our subconscious desire to be the chosen one.

    Female validation is nothing more than signaling to her mate that he’s won the rights to breed with her.

    Like the Buck with the biggest antlers defeating all comers to win the breeding rights to the hottest doe…THAT is the ONLY validation we men get from dominating other men.

    Like


  94. MQ,

    “G Manifesto strikes me as a true hedonist”

    I just looked up the definition of Hedonism (and I don’t mean that crappy resort in Jamacia either) :

    Hedonism: Pursuit of or devotion to pleasure, especially to the pleasures of the senses.

    Am I a Hedonist?

    Yes I am.

    Am I my brothers keeper?

    Yes I am.

    “I have said it before and I will say it again, that apart from Spanish wine, cigarettes, flash custom suits, and heisting drug dealers, what I love most is chopping apart plastic players (no pun intended) and heisting their girls.” – MPM

    Like


  95. “I remember when my niece and nephew were around that age and willing to swallow any imaginary story that I could come up with. Eh, at least the kids still hug me when I come home from work…”

    I just realized that in terms of fulfilling the role of a paterfamilias, Roissy and David Alexander are exactly alike.

    Like


  96. “It’s an American cultural thing this holier-than-though stuff. FWIW 90% of people in Europe would agree with this post.”

    Interesting point. Europe’s birthrates are tanking, and although America’s aren’t much better they are higher. Is there room in the hedonistic lifestyle for parenting children? If, as I suspect, there is not then hedonism is a dead end for any culture if enough people practice it. I hope childless hedonistic Europeans can convince pious Muslims to fund their retirements.

    Like


  97. Roissy, you gotta check out MODEONE: Let the women what you’re really thinking !

    beats mystery and how to trick a women into bed 101

    Like


  98. What a crock of feminist drivel.

    We want validation that we are worthy and desired sperm donors for beautiful women’s offspring. (etc.)

    You seem to disagree violently, but I don’t see any contradiction between this and what I said. Being chosen by a woman is powerful validation, no question. As is being admired and followed by other men. Perfectly natural motivations, make you feel you’re important and give pleasure in themselves.

    Like the Buck with the biggest antlers defeating all comers to win the breeding rights to the hottest doe…THAT is the ONLY validation we men get from dominating other men.

    anyone from a true warrior culture would laugh in your face at the contention that the only pleasure gained from victory and conquest was being “granted” the right to be with a woman.

    Like


  99. Keep in mind your premises may not be true. The big questions are undecidable on rational and empirical grounds.

    Those who suffer the most tend to be most attached to the ego. Watch this:

    It is also worth noting positive psychology is showing that highest life satisfaction is correlated more with finding meaning and doing good work than in seeking pleasure:

    Like


  100. Roissy, thanks for the list of recommendations. Do you have any links handy to where some of those materials can be found? I found the Mystery Venusian Arts book on bittorrent, but some of the other stuff seems difficult to search for. As for the David Deangelo cocky/funny series, are you referring to “Cocky Comedy and other Conversation Skills?”

    Like


  101. It’s nice to see that you (Roissy) do have a family with which you seem to connect and bond to. On the other hand, it’s almost more deeply disturbing that some of your writing displays such a strong disconnect with women and male guidance. We write what we know. =(
    -Grace.

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  102. Very interesting, Roissy. I’ve been lurking a while trying to figure this blog out…

    Something you might want to keep in mind about your conclusion that hedonism is the only rational response to life is this. We as humans are not really that good at predicting what will make us happy: http://faculty.chicagogsb.edu/christopher.hsee/vita/Papers/DecisionAndExperience.pdf

    What if your whole alpha-beta war-of-the sexes theory is just one big prediction bias?

    Like


  103. neil tosses the conventional culturists a bone toward the end of the book when he describes the supposed dark side of game

    But there is a dark side of game. The mechanized responses you get from women will tend to make you view them purely as machines to get something out of. The betrayal and nastiness you will suddenly see from so many women will get you to suspect that they are all are sluts and cheaters. Whirling through a series of women makes it harder to create a deep bond with one particular woman. Too much choice in general overwhelms us and distracts us from ever following through on anything. Game can make you cynical as hell.

    But it isn’t true. There are (some) genuinely good, loyal women out there. Deep, fulfilling, lifelong relationships are possible, at least for some people.

    It makes me suspicious when even a self proclaimed romantic like Zan Perrion can’t find someone special to settle down with. Don’t tell me that among all the women he has been able to attract, there wasn’t one that would have made him an awesome lifelong companion.

    I’m not denying that game can be used for good, nor am I saying that it has no application for long term relationships, but like many things that can be used for good, it does have its dangers.

    P.S.
    RE: Mechanized responses. I think I have made this point before, but it is ridiculous how different women will respond with the exact same thing word for word after you tell them particular stories etc.

    Like


  104. Of course hedonism is ultimately unfullfilling, all life is . . . It can’t be.

    Not true. A lot of people seem to be able to find deep and genuine fulfillment in work, family, marriage, religion. Perhaps not everyone is capable of finding such fulfillment, but, for those who are, they are advised to seek it in these things, not in hedonism.

    And, of course, without the love of a woman, all of these things are likely to feel somewhat incomplete, but, on the other hand, getting a lot poon has never been a recipe for fulfillment.

    Like


  105. I pretty much agree with roissy. “hedonism” brings about thoughts of the fall of the Roman empire and whatnot. But I think living life to *enjoy* it, especially if you live in 1st world country in this age, is a worthy goal.

    Now roissy doesn’t necessarily mean you walk around coked up on heroin 24/7 (roissy can correct me if I’m wrong). He simply means living life to enjoy it.

    Of course calling (semi)attractive horny promiscuous women dirty “sluts” will ultimately bite into that, but he’ll learn. The way he despises these women indicates to me that he has some level of moral view, even if he doesn’t believe in the after life (of course, I don’t think a belief in a higher power is necessary for this to be the case).

    Like


  106. Nothing is more hopeless than a scheme of merriment.
    – Samuel Johnson

    Like


  107. MQ says, “Perhaps if Roissy is able to get over whatever is pissing him off, he’ll relax, enjoy himself, and be a hedonist.”

    What’s pissing him off is finding out that he is not a special snowflake.

    …and that even if he is a relatively unique snowflake, in the end he’s going to fall just like every other. Being different or special still entitles one to nothing but what they build or earn, and fiercely guard. All else is easily lost with a slight change of circumstance.

    Humans generally like to forget these things because it’s easier to base one’s confidence on something that is easy to acquire than something that requires effort to achieve.

    People who fear vulnerability are uncomfortable when confronted with the knowledge of how much each of us lives at the mercy of others. They constantly seek ways to be more self contained, and some succeed to some degree…but being self contained means that one cannot rely in any way on external validation. If one does enjoy or rely on anyone else’s approval or validation, one is not self contained, and is therefore vulnerable to being hurt.

    An honest pursuit of pleasure, if that includes any dealings with others, has to include an acceptance of the possibility of pain. If it does not, then it is simply running away from all pain, not embracing pleasure.

    Like


  108. hello: Interesting point. Europe’s birthrates are tanking, and although America’s aren’t much better they are higher.

    Pure myth. White American birth rates would just make them an unexceptional Protestant country in Europe. American birth rates are higher because of massive latino immigration and because of the slightly higher black birth rate.

    Like


  109. @hello

    Of course, your quip about European birthrates downplays a lot of the real issues with Europe’s population decline, such as strong opposition to immigration, disincentives in developed nations for child birth (opportunity cost, etc.), women’s entrance into the workplace, ageism in aforementioned workplace, and opportunistic workers looking for ways to retire early.

    It also assumes that hedonism is really only limited to “pleasures of the senses”, as Mr. Manifesto states. The way I see it, hedonism is just following what feels good, essentially living in the moment. I am sure roissy would disagree, but you can spend 8 hours on the couch watching TV, and still be a hedonist; if your pleasure is television, then you’re fulfilling your imperative.

    Consequence-free world or not, hedonism seems the natural progression. Retiring could be considered hedonism by my loose definition; no longer being tethered to the wills of the labor market, and theoretically having enough money set aside to do whatever strikes your fancy in the final years of your life seems like the closest the average person can get to hedonism in today’s society. And since, as roissy said,

    “After a certain age, when you don’t matter anymore to most people, even your own family, you stop caring what anyone thinks of you. Tit for tat.”

    That’s just one less connection to have to worry about in your quest for self-fulfillment. Of course, assisted-living is the antithesis of that freedom of self-fulfillment, so here’s hoping I lose my life before my marbles.

    Like


  110. Of course R is making the classic error of regarding the bitter view as the inevitable result of atheism when in fact it’s a choice, at least for people who aren’t cursed with a genetic tendency toward morose brain juice. If you’re healthy and wealthy and have your life set up to be able to avoid toxic people (private, and politicians), life is variable but not unduly a bummer. Play with more kids, try to avoid death waiting rooms.

    Sebastian Flyte “Ketamine is the sweet elixer that can transport you beyond the world.”
    === Amen, brother. At a good dose it is a death experience, totally out-of-body. Completely safe too, provided you refrain from all food/drink 12 hours prior and do it in a sheltered environment. I’ve never done ketamine via street purchase, but I had it as an anesthetic abroad. Jesus Fricking Christ. One does not know what human consciousness can be without experiencing a disassociative. PCP is similar but a lot less elegant. something to take the edge off (an opiate, barbiturate, or muscle relaxant) is desirable with ketamine and a must for PCP (to ensure it’s a positive experience).

    Jackson “arguments like the one about Pascal’s wager”
    === Yep, play it safe and avoid wackiness like Christianity and Islam…you don’t want to go pissing off Zeus!
    “I find atheism as dogmatically unsupported as I find belief”
    === Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. If humans (and not mice, chimps, dolphins, etc. etc.) have a means of consciousness apart from the brain, why is it possible to radically alter it (ketamine, Alzheimers) and switch it off (general anesthesia)?

    otherWhen789 “Hedonism, if taken seriously enough, will have us joining those poor Hell-bound bastards pretty damn quick.”
    === Ah yes, the Tragedy of the Hedonist Commons

    sol voson “If God were a pervert…”
    === He’d murder all of humankind except a handful of folks in an ark, and watch the Soviets starve a few million peasants, and watch decades of the Spanish Inquisition, and…well, you get the idea.

    Nicole “If you do have the balls for it, Roissy, try sex with a horse, and get back to us.”
    === Yeah Roissy, stop being an ascetic and live it up, man! Heh.

    JaJaJa “Having children gives you immortality.”
    === Whatever makes you happy to contemplate, more power to you. Unfortunately, the facts of genes and heredity aren’t very inspiring unless you’re thrilled to simply be “part of humanity.” Mitochondrial DNA shows that, in the long run, damn few peoples’ genes survive. For example, “mitochondrial Eve” was the only woman of her time to pass her genes all the way to the present age. The success rate is even worse for males, who are treated by nature as far more variable/experimental and expendable. And even if your line survives, it ends up getting extremely diluted in the gene pool over time.

    DF 4:34 PM [about sex with a horse resulting in a mouthful of colt seed]
    === I’m going to say this again. Let me be clear about this. I did *not* have sexual relations with that horse, that Mister Ed.

    Eurosabra “approaching 50 women is a NORMAL week.”
    === One of the hilarious tales in Strauss’ first book is when so many PUA students were working Sunset Boulevard that girls would reply to “Can I ask your opinion on something?” with “Yeah, your friend’s girlfriend wants him to throw away all the pictures of his ex, right? You’re like the fourth guy today that’s asked us that same question. What the hell is going on?”

    K.A.B. 9:01 PM “if it wouldn’t land me in jail, I would straight up lodge bullets in several domes each and every day”
    === I wish I had an evil twin
    running ’round, doing people in.
    Just like I would
    if I weren’t good
    and if I knew where to begin.
    – Magnetic Fields, Evil Twin

    chicnoir “I’m sure there is a female version of [quitting work to be a total hedonist].”
    === Me too. Marrying rich.

    Dave from Hawaii “No man ever went to his grave hoping for “He was a Dedicated Worker” or “The Best Employee” engraved on his epitaph.”
    === Sounds like you haven’t lived in Japan

    Hello “I wouldn’t be interested in anyone who was unemployed and had nothing to offer but game.”
    === There’s one Roosh won’t ever Bang.

    The G Manifesto “what I love most is chopping apart plastic players…” – MPM”
    === and hearing the laments of their women?

    Thursday “But there is a dark side of game. The mechanized responses you get from women will tend to make you view them purely as machines to get something out of. The betrayal and nastiness you will suddenly see from so many women will get you to suspect that they are all are sluts and cheaters.”
    === One of the parts of Strauss’ first book that I found most interesting was where he could not game the blond rocker, the guitarist who was in Courtney Love’s band. She laughed at his attempts, and easily brushed off Mystery’s negs. Strauss proceeded to fall in love with her and confess all the mechanics of game to her.

    Skeptic “coked up on heroin”
    === Hmm.

    Thursday [quoting Samuel Johnson] “Nothing is more hopeless than a scheme of merriment.”
    === I’m guessing Sam did not make the best wingman.

    Like


  111. At some point in life, you’ll find hedonism incredibly boring. I know I did. Self overcoming is everything. Then you die, but whatever; the best thing in the world is living up to your potential. If womanizing is your profession; power to you. If it’s a hobby, it’s not enough to build a life out of.

    Like


  112. Hedonism is great while one is young and attractive.

    But boy I wouldn’t want to be that old guy at the bar, grey headed and ageing……………………………maybe that is just me though.

    I suppose one could just hang out in bars with older clientele and chase women that are older as well if one is as inclined as Roiss is to indulge in hedonism as a lifetime pursuit.

    To each his own however, and that is what is so fine about this country. Roiss has every right to enjoy himself as long as he doesn’t break the law, and he is not doing that.

    Like


  113. 450 years of scientific research and engineering advancement and we, with all our power and knowledge, can’t engineer individual pieces as sophisticated as organs in the body, much less build the whole thing. Only the stupid and the truly self deluded believe life happened by random chance.

    It’s worth asking who made all of this, and for what purpose.

    Like


  114. “Roiss has every right to enjoy himself as long as he doesn’t break the law, and he is not doing that.”

    I know we all love to hate on libertarianism, but I can’t think of a more succinct synopsis of social libertarianism than that.

    Also, we seem to be dwelling on the more carnal aspects of a hedonist life; it doesn’t always have to be about the ‘tang, although if that is one’s goal, then by all means, go for it. I’d be curious to hear roissy’s own take on hedonism, as he rarely accepts a conventional definition or concept without adding his own unique…flair, we’ll call it.

    Like


  115. on December 5, 2008 at 4:44 am MilitantAtheist

    Tosh.

    Like


  116. Excellent reading recommendations. I’ve been studying most of the online stuff and will be hunkering down to really dig into the books, a pile of which awaits that I have to, pardon the pun, pickup later today.

    But if I may say so, in a lot of ways, Roissy’s site, right here, may be more valuable than all of the books combined: here, you get realtime application of Game, as well the kind of interaction from a flesh and blood Playa that the best books can’t give. For me, a very hands-on kinda Brotha, Roissy is worth more than that pile of books I mentioned, although just so I know exactly what I’m talking about I’ll be studying them, too.

    So, to Mike Blowhard, I would say yup, definitely read the books, but watch very closely how Roissy actually applies it. Much more valuable, in my humble view.

    Dave From The Island…

    EXCELLENT points. The vast majority of Women out there will not understand, truly, what you said. It is the essential difference between us and them. And I don’t see that as a bad thing.

    If I may…

    Am I the only one here who contemplates the potential “moral” conflicts/questions/contradictions of Game?

    Comments, please…

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  117. And while I’m in Quiz Kid mode, here’s another…

    And I’m being very serious here in asking.

    Insofar as I’m aware, the vast majority of Game purveyors, authors and the like are White. And, in the main, they ain for White Women. No problem there at all.

    But how about if you’re Urban Black? Does it make a difference? If so, how?

    As a Race Realist, I do fully embrace that the Races do things in different ways; I don’t think its beyond the pale to suggest, that even some of Mystery advocates might not be effective in Black America.

    And, aside from Pimp, Iceberg Slim’s autobiography, and the other book T mentioned, I’m not aware of the “Black Mystery”.

    So-is Game, truly Universal? Or, is it something that is “Mission Variable”?

    This is a question for Roissy, as well as anyone else who has played on both sides, so to speak.

    Comments?

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  118. Nicole: Tsurupettan, law abiding definitely does contradict with hedonism. The concern for a hedonist is not the law, or harm that might come to others as a result of their actions…only whether or not they are likely to be caught.

    OK, I agree, hedonism should be spiced up with ethics. This was my bad. In defense of roissy, it seems he was only concerned about non-responsibility to a supernatural deity, not mundane ethics.

    (Mundane ethic do not require supernatural deities — the golden rule suffices.)

    Like


  119. JM,
    there are two torrent trackers out there that deal with PUA/seduction material only. They are pretty easy to find, assuming that your Google skills are somewhat decent. But don’t waste your time on David D’s “Cocky and Comedy”. The guy shouldn’t be talking about comedy – he’s boring & bland. If you really want to watch his programs, check out “Mastery..” and “Advanced Dating..”

    The Mystery Method has been recommended by a few guys. Try to find the newer “Revelation” written by Lovedrop from Venusian Arts. The difference between the two books, as described in the preface of Revelation:

    * While the first book introduces Mystery’s teachings, the new book captures Mystery’s presence and personality.
    * While the first book records Mystery’s diagrams and models, the new book expresses the purest understanding of his game.
    * In the new book we narrow our focus to the pickup itself (the first phase of courtship), emphasizing the core skills and foundational understandings of our art.
    * The first book is now several years old. Though the teachings therein are still effective, the new book contains our teachings as we understand them now (2008), versus how we understood them in 2004–2005.
    * Mystery’s game has been unfortunately mischaracterized by his pioneering use of peacocking, negs, and canned material. The new book reveals our practical emphasis on vibe, delivery, humor, microcalibration, and value switches

    Like


  120. “At a good dose it is a death experience, totally out-of-body”

    Yes James. Ketamine can change your view of life. This book demonstrates that the brain effects of almost-death – white light, peace, joy, oneness – effects that change lives – are identical in substance to effects brought on by ketamine. This is not even ‘near death’ – we’re talking a flatline state, moments before brain death itself. Ketamine also proves the quirky happenings in near-death experiences are not celestial, but chemical.

    This returns God to Man. But in terms of hedonism, ketamine may also return earth to man! These chemicals are proof that the long-sought after place is pleasurable emotions. That is the purpose of game – the pleasurable emotions of getting a girl. But only chemicals can deliver that with perfect precision.

    Trainspotting was right when it said that heroin was better
    than the best-of-the-best sex. But the world has not yet grasped the frightening implications of that fact.

    Like


  121. on December 5, 2008 at 9:08 am ironrailsironweights

    My life philosophy: not to waste time writing lengthy blog comments that no one is going to bother to read.

    Peter

    Like


  122. Mu’Min:
    Insofar as I’m aware, the vast majority of Game purveyors, authors and the like are White. And, in the main, they ain for White Women. No problem there at all.

    But how about if you’re Urban Black? Does it make a difference? If so, how?

    Alot of the guys creating material are white. This is because it has always been biased to some certain personalities: mostly nerdy. Especially back before that first NYT article about Mystery, you had to crawl into the dark armpit of the internet. Which means a lot of white guys. I’ve known multiple successful black guys in that realm, but none of them I would consider ‘urban’.

    You’re wrong though in saying they aim for white women. There is a lot of asian hunters and healthy numbers of latina hunters, etc. It’s pretty much drawn upon a socio-economic line rather than a racial one, which is mainstream middle class. Of course most of this shit is universal. Things like shit-tests and push-pull are universal to the human psyche. ‘Jealous girlfriend’ opener works just the same. My thought is that some of the material and examples are cultural centric and would require tweaking, but remain fundamentally effective. They may talk about pickup at Barnes and Noble, and you just have to transfer that to something equivalent. This shit really is cross-cultural. I know a guy who would pick up fresh-off-the-boat girls that hardly could speak English.

    Like


  123. Generally speaking, do black guys need the same kind of “Game” help that so many white guys need?

    I had the impression that flirting, bantering, approaching, applying a little physical heat, keeping things moving towards mutual fulfillment, dancing, courting, looking good, developing a sexy public image — I thought that

    1) many black guys were just plain good at all this,

    2) that black culture generally has always unapologetically valued the dance of the sexes (bantering, flirting, self-presentation, moving together, etc),

    3) that younger black guys haven’t been as brainwashed, de-balled, and pussywhipped as many white guys have been, and that

    4) the nerd-geek archetype, David Alexander excepted, hasn’t been as dominant a presence in recent black life as it’s been in white (and I guess Asian) life.

    As a consequence of all these (possibly unfair) assumptions, I tend to think black guys aren’t in desperate need of Game books, Game seminars, Game websites and such. Plus, nerdy whiteguyz seem to love coming up with flowcharts, formulas, systems, scripts, etc, where blackguyz often seem to excel at winging it.

    But I could well be wrong — I’m here to learn, and corrections and enlightenment are appreciated. T.? Mu’Min? DA? Chic Noir?

    Like


  124. on December 5, 2008 at 10:16 am ironrailsironweights

    that younger black guys haven’t been as brainwashed, de-balled, and pussywhipped as many white guys have been

    That’s certainly my impression too. Same for Hispanic guys.

    Peter

    Like


  125. Animus,
    No doubt what you say is highly logical and makes lots of sense. However, I think you might have missed my point while making it at the same time.

    Roissy has said, and I assume that you agree, that, Mystery’s Method, for example, is something *anyone* can use to great effect.

    So the question for me has to be: can Mystery’s “system” be effective for the stompdown Sistas? And, I think we all would agree, they’re a different breed than the White, Asian, and even some Latinas, like the ones you mentioned. And while Class does indeed play a role, in America Class and Race often, not always, but more often than we’d like to admit, are one and the same. A BAP in the exburbs may be more affluent than her
    Sistas in the Hood, but they have the same “attitude”, which is a bit rougher around the edgdes than ymy White Brothers are used to.

    One of the things that immediately drew me in about Game was its insistence-and reliance-upon field testing. This is a huge selling point for me, because I have always been of the mind that Theory without Direct Application is Dead. The Mystery Method, etc, has been tested countless times in the environs you mentioned. But, insofar as I’m aware, it has not been tested on say, Z Street in DC.

    I think we all can safely say that Game works in the Nation’s Capital-and, I agree, in *theory*, it should play as well in Chocolate City.

    I just haven’t seen the proof of it yet.

    Have you?

    Comments, anyone?

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  126. Fear not!

    Imagine you had incontrovertible proof that there was no afterlife.

    There is an after and before life.

    No supernatural entities.

    You mean dead people who live beyond this world? Since death is a part of life, life is also a part of death. There is no death as we think of it.

    No heaven or hell.

    True. No actual heaven or hell place, only our emotional experience of it on planet earth.

    No otherworld. No reincarnation. No forevermore.

    Our lives continue forever.

    No second chances.

    If you miss one ship, another comes in..

    Imagine there was no moral accounting after death of your actions on earth.

    The only accounting is our chance to review our actions and how it affected others; positive and negative. There is no judgment whatsoever, only an opportunity to understand life and how it works.

    No supreme being to judge your soul’s worth on the scale of divine justice.

    As you wish.

    No reward or punishment.

    Just what works and what doesn’t. Just what gets the results we want and what doesn’t, based on natural law.

    No appeal to omniscient authority in matters of good and evil.

    As you wish.

    Feel better? Yoda has spoken.

    Like


  127. A lot of people seem to be able to find deep and genuine fulfillment in work, family, marriage, religion…. getting a lot poon has never been a recipe for fulfillment.

    I mean, this is quite obviously true, which is why a pussy-based notion of hedonism is so shallow, an inexperienced 18 year olds view. For most people, the pursuit of happiness is not the same as the pursuit of pleasure. As someone pointed out above, drugs are the quickest and most effective route to pure pleasure, but their dangers are well known.

    It’s much harder to be happy without a woman, but very easy to be unhappy with a woman — even an attractive one who is fully subservient to you.

    Like


  128. our lives are machines — complex misunderstood machines cunningly designed to conceal the gears and pulleys behind a facade of self-delusional sublimation, but machines nonetheless — grinding and belching the choking gritty smoke of status-whoring displays in service to our microscopic puppetmasters… well, there can be only one reasonable response to it all. It makes no sense to behave any other way unless you never questioned the lies.

    Are you prepared to embrace the meaning of your ultimately inconsequential existence? If it feels good…

    What feels good is the question.

    Like


  129. You make me laugh, roissy, which should please you.

    status-whoring displays in service to our microscopic puppetmasters..

    Come again? 😀

    Like


  130. MQ

    <It’s much harder to be happy without a woman, but very easy to be unhappy with a woman — even an attractive one who is fully subservient to you.</i

    I told you so.

    Like


  131. MQ

    <It’s much harder to be happy without a woman, but very easy to be unhappy with a woman — even an attractive one who is fully subservient to you.</i

    I told you so.

    Like


  132. Roissy is a last man.

    Like


  133. Mike Blowhard,
    You make some excellent observations and comments, and yes, what you’ve noted wrt Black Men and Black Culture generally, in comparison to White Men and White Culture, is broadly accurate.

    However-

    If one considers a Sports Analogy here, it becomes very easy to see why it would be to a Black Man’s advantage to take the Mysterys of the world seriously.

    A key flaw of many Black players is that they rely too much on their innate gifts, and thus, they don’t focus much on actually learning the Fundaments of the Game, so to speak. Indeed, this is a major critique of so many Black altheletes; how often do we hear this lament in the NBA (especially now with more and more European players entering the field), and perhaps even more importantly, in the NFL among the most coveted position-Quarterback? Michael Vick/Donovan McNabb/etc et al, anyone?

    So yup, comparitively speaking, I or T could very well do at least as well as most of the White brothers here without any Game, as is defined by Mystery etc, at all; but, in order to really master the Game, we should be willing to really understand WHY we do what we do, and WHY Women do what they do, in formulaic terms. In so doing, we’re on the path to Michael Jordanlike greatness.

    Just some quick thoughts on Lunchbreak.

    Holla back if you have any questions or comments

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  134. Mu – That makes a lot of sense, thanks.

    So why aren’t you guys selling us stiff-limbed, clodhopper, caught-in-our-heads clueless whiteguyz some books and vids about how to warm up, loosen up, enjoy the flow, and respond in the moment? Maybe we’re beyond help, eh? Still, maybe there’s a business opportunity there for an ambitious black PUA …

    Like


  135. Interesting comments re Black players(playas). I saw this at a train station a while ago: a black male,appearing to be of workng class type status,approached a black female. She shut him down cold. (ouch!) Soon after,I left the staion to wait by the track for me train,when I notice the same “gennamin” now approaching a white woman. She happily talked to him in a friendly tone. He emphasized several times that he ‘worked” at a local restaurant. This is my take:Women seek to retain their status,they abhor making a faux pas that would make them appear low-status. The BLACK female protected her status by NOT being a pick up for a strange black male;she left NO doubt that she had nothing to say. The WHITE female,scared of being labeled “RAY-CISS”,as well as fear of black male anger,wouldnt dare NOT talk to him,and made sure to be friendly and perky. When her train came she boarded and was relieved to get back to her life. The black male was left alone(but hopefully not lonely,heh heh). Funny how socil norms force white and black women to treat the black male so differently!

    Like


  136. Still, maybe there’s a business opportunity there for an ambitious black PUA …

    Best candidate is that Tariq Nasheed guy I was recommending I was mentioning before. Teaches game, but more from a black “macking” point of view rather than a evo bio scientific viewpoint. same end results, just different approach. more horse sense and street savvy than wonkishness.

    Sample:

    He’s done seminars at Yale even to an almost all-white Ivy crowd:

    He’s appeared on MTV and has a show in development at VH1.

    Like


  137. T, Josh,
    T, I listened to Tariq after you recommended him in your post on Black in America, the CNN special on your site. I’ll add his book to my Game Reading List.

    Josh, yup, Welcome to Game in Black America, LOL. And it can be ROUGH. But that’s a good thing. Makes you really sharpen your skills.

    First off, dude’s approach was all wrong, but I won’t belabour all that. And you could well be right about the White gal. Sad but true.

    One of these days I’ll have to talk about a similar story where and one of my ace boon coons did something very close to what you described with dude on the train platform. Like T’s recent “animal stories” it was a real eyeopener.

    But yea, all in all, Sistas are tougher to Game than White Women. That’s been my experience, and it seems to be true for other Brothas as well, though I’d like to get T’s take on it. Heck, even DA’s take on it, LOL.

    Oh, and if Roissy thinks the dating scene in White DC is hard, man, he ain’t seen hard till he’s deal with Black Philly. I’ve seen Brothas from other cities-NYC!-go back home with their head in their hands. LOL

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  138. Josh Randall,
    That happens to me a lot. She may have just been a friendly person who was bored.

    Like


  139. I always found Philly (white) women more unfriendly than women in other cities, even NYC.

    Like


  140. Anony saidI would name it “compassion, understanding, touch, and emotional acceptance. Men are unwilling to ask for “compassion,……” .” so they ask for
    I agree with this. Men put on the biggest fronts for their friends.
    MQ saidIt’s very difficult to control another person over the long run without the threat of violence
    Agreed although part of me thinks that in any M/F relationship, the threat of violence is always there. It’s part of the reason why I try to avoid arguing with men.

    Like


  141. Hey Jack,
    Yup. Philly Women period, are just rough. When I was down in ATL it was like being in Heaven. SERIOUSLY thought about staying there.

    To be sure, someone will invariably point out that the ladies are only reacting to the “evil that Men do” and maybe there’s something to be said for that. All I know is, that if you can run Game here, you can run it anywhere.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  142. Mu, why are the women in Philly so hard to get close to? What makes them more difficult to rap to than the women in NYC?

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  143. Chic,
    I honestly don’t know. All’s I know is, and this is what others from outside Philly have told me, is that Women here are just rough to talk to. And they ain’t lyin’ one little bit either-here it is VERY COMMONPLACE for a Woman, White or Black, to walk right by you as if you’re a Stop sign if you try to holla, or just say Hi. And that’s just for starters.

    Don’t get me wrong, though. A guy who’s persistent and got something going for himself can do alright, I most certainly did. But I don’t fool myself, Philly is a TOUGH market to operate in. You learn to get a really thick skin, how to improvise on the spot and get a swagger real quick if you have any intentions of actually copulating on a more frquent basis than Halley’s Coment coming through our part of the Solar System. So, in that regard, and especially if you’re a Brotha, you get to really learn tight, Guerilla Style Game, firsthand. Of course, the downside is that you take a beatdown everytime out until you get it together. Many are called, few are chosen, indeed.

    Whew

    Salaam
    Mu

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  144. MU,
    Do the men in Philly do a lot of catcalling on the streets? If so, that could be the reason why some women are hesitant to respond to them. Grace and Hello mentioned Adam’s Morgan as a horrible place in DC because of street harassment. There was a sister who ran a blog about street harassment almost all of her posts focused on the Adams Morgan area of DC.

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  145. Chic Noir,
    From what I could tell, the catcalling and the like didn’t seem to approach AM levels, LOL. But then again I’m a guy and it might be better to ask the ladies here about it. Could it be a factor? Sure. I’m just not sure that’s all it is, though.

    And the blog you mentioned sounds like an interesting read. What’s it called?

    Salaam
    Mu

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  146. Well, since my last question about whether the Mystery Method actually works as well in the Hood as it does in the Boonies went over like a lead balloon, LOL, here’s another, and in a way, is in keeping in line with the general vibe of the thread:

    Is there such a thing as a Principled Player?

    One of the consistent criticisms I’ve heard, and read, about Game is that it is disengenuous, that it seeks to “manipulate” others and that it promotes a false presentation of the Self to achieve that end. I disagree, but the critiques do raise an important question for me, and, I hope, for at least some of you: can a Player live by Rules, a Code of sorts?

    Like most Brothas I suppose, I kinda learn my tradecraft in a more informal way, a departure from the flowcharts and acronym-laced nomencature of the Game crowd; and along the way I put in place some things that made it as fair to all sides in the “hunting” process.

    For example, I always do things in a way where the Female can back out if she chooses. At any time. Daytime dates at cafes is a case in point. No alcohol, or any other kind of drugs for that matter; no “expectation” of something more after having taken her out to eat, etc.

    As any good hunter knows, it is unsportsmanlike to go out there with an AK. You want to give the Prey a legitimate chance to get away.

    Sounds a bit odd I know, but that’s how I roll, and for the most part, its worked.

    What, say you?

    Comments?

    Salaam
    Mu

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  147. Mu raises an excellent question. Is “Game” a set of tools, tools which (like any) can be used well and/or misused? Or does it supply a trustworthy ethic — something you can follow and live well by?

    I’d add that evolutionary biology suggests the same question. Is evo-bio a useful and helpful way lens through which to read life? I think it is. But even if it is (and here’s the leap many make) is also it a worthwhile, rewarding and trustworthy Guide to Living Well?

    (FWIW, while i think evo-bio lays out a bunch of rules that often bear taking into account, I think many youngdudez get ‘way too dogmatic, deterministic, and fundamentalist about them. Evo bio is interesting science, and it’s a fun way to spit in the face of Blank Slate-ism. But when used as a replacement for religion, philosophy, ethics, etc, it has its shortcomings and can turn ugly. But interested, like Mu, in what others have to say — as well as what Mu thinks about all this.)

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  148. — while i think evo-bio lays out a bunch of rules that often bear taking into account, I think many youngdudez get ‘way too dogmatic, deterministic, and fundamentalist about them.

    Youngdudez are way too dogmatic, deterministic, and fundamentalist about everything. That’s why the average age of Pol Pot’s revolutionary was something like 16. When a youn’un gleans an insight into something major, he’ll embrace it with a convert’s fervor because he finally has an explanation for everything that he’s observed in his limited experience.

    Evo-bio seemed so plain obvious to me when I started coming across it around the early 90s that I still woder why it’s called a science or a theory, and not simply “common sense.”

    That said, many evol-bio discussion sites are full of all-left-brain nerd types who don’t know how to, or try to, reconcile commonsensical ideas about the human animal with our transcendent natures.

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  149. on December 6, 2008 at 9:55 am Comment_About_Old_People

    Since everyone likes beating on young people in every thread, I think to maintain balance, I’ll beat on American old people. God knows they are a big fat target.

    Let’s start with the old people in Roissy’s story. They DEMAND attention because no one ‘cares’ about them. Why should this be a problem? I’m serious. Why should it be? After decades of experience and the entire family generational wealth held hostage to their moods, why should they be anything but basking in attention? It shouldn’t take any effort at all. As easy as spitting. So why?

    1.Because they haven’t actually bothered to learn anything, their ‘advice’ is, at best, meaningless, and at worst, destructive.
    2.Because they blew it ALL. They blew every last dime! It’s not their fault, they WANTED TO. Don’t judge them!

    Now, some people will point out that young people ‘owe’ older people, so they deserve attention NO MATTER WHAT. These people happily forget ‘owe’ can be for both good and bad things.

    1.What is ‘owed’ to old people who wracked up trillions in debt with no intention whatsoever of paying it back, ever?
    2.What is ‘owed’ to the ‘mother’, who in order to ‘find herself’, destroyed their childrens home and then subjected them to a series of crazy bad boy boyfriends?
    3.What is ‘owed’ to the ‘father’ who failed to teach their children anything about women, basic facts of jobs in America, or any other basic life skills?

    What is ‘owed’?

    So yeah, those poor American old people, if only they could be made young again, so they could enjoy the future they have made for their children and grandchildren. That would pay the debt. In full.

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  150. PA — That’s nicely put, as well as very funny about how young people will tend to go overly-enthusiastic about anything they embrace.

    I think a lot of what Evo Bio means to a lot of people is “Common sense and traditional wisdom have a lot going for them, and now we have scientific proof of it, so fuck you.”

    Funny how it’s taken decades — decades! for common sense to stage a triumphant return, isn’t it? Where did that ferocity about the Blank Slate come from?

    Like


  151. Comment_About — Your exasperation is understandable but misdirected. You’re silly to be angry at old people generally, who have (like most people thru all of time) merely done what they could to get by. You should instead be angry at the irresponsible elites who have fucked a lot of nice things up. There are loads of old people who have paid for their kids’ educations and who have put money aside for their retirement, and who are just as angry at these misbehaving elites as you ought to be.

    And puh-leeze don’t go around imagining that you’re the first generation to be convinced that everything would be ultra-groovy if only their parents hadn’t screwed up so badly …

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  152. Heck, even DA’s take on it, LOL.

    Well, given that I’ve never asked a girl out ever, I don’t have anything to report. 🙂

    I always found Philly (white) women more unfriendly than women in other cities, even NYC.

    Philly is New York’s poorer older brother. OTOH, I think it’s the only place where a bunch of teenage black girls asked me to take their photo while I was waiting for the MFL to pull into the station…

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  153. Actually there is one book that I think everyone who is interested in ugly truths and game should read, but I always hesitate to recommend it because it is way harsh. I believe it’s very correct, but it makes Devlin and Robert Greene (author of 48 Laws of Power) seem like a Pollyanna. Even Esther Vilar’s The Manipulated Man can’t touch this book.

    It’s called Anatomy of Female Power by Chinwezu, and it’s a small, easy-breezy book that you can read in a day. It blew me away, I had to wipe my brains off the wall when I was done because I felt like my head exploded several times while reading it.

    If you’re the kind of person who is prone to become bitter and angry from hearing harsh truths, I would suggest stasying away from it though. It’s brutal.

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  154. ” bunch of teenage black girls asked me”
    I’m not really much into black women but for a nice couple of teens I’ll make an exception.

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  155. PA:

    Youngdudez are way too dogmatic, deterministic, and fundamentalist about everything. That’s why the average age of Pol Pot’s revolutionary was something like 16. When a youn’un gleans an insight into something major, he’ll embrace it with a convert’s fervor because he finally has an explanation for everything that he’s observed in his limited experience.

    Evo-bio seemed so plain obvious to me when I started coming across it around the early 90s that I still woder why it’s called a science or a theory, and not simply “common sense.”

    Because as soon as people start discussing topics beyond their trivial everyday business, common sense is likely to be wrong more often than not. The most important point of training in engineering and science is not about learning facts and specific skills — you can always catch up with them as need arises — but about learning to distrust your common sense and approach the problems in an intellectually disciplined way wholly different from how you handle your everyday affairs. Even for trained engineers and scientists, it’s difficult to maintain the full necessary mental self-discipline all the time, which explains the omnipresent technical failures and junk science (which happens more often due to honest self-delusions and intellectual sloppiness caused by undisciplined falling back on “common sense” than intentional fraud).

    If common sense were enough to reach valid conclusions about anything beyond everyday affairs, science would be a characteristic of all human cultures, not an unprecedented phenomenon that developed in only one of all the countless cultures in the history of the world. Applying common sense to intellectual topics and jumping to conclusions because common sense tells you that they’re “plain obvious” will get you about as far as Aristotle’s work — occasional interesting insights, but on the whole, when it comes to scientific accuracy, a pile of garbage.

    So, yes, in order to validate any concrete conclusions of evolutionary psychology, you first need to do lots of hard, rigorous, and most of all, self-disciplined scientific work. It’s easy to knock down theories, but it’s very hard to come up with better ones to replace them. Just because blank slate has been decisively knocked down, it doesn’t mean that the present popular theories on how exactly the human brain is innately pre-wired are correct. As for the amateur arguments based on finding some supposedly universal human trait, inventing a story about how it might have been beneficial back in the caveman days, and then triumphantly concluding that it must be genetically pre-wired, you might as well be consulting astrological charts.

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  156. Michael Blowhard:

    Funny how it’s taken decades — decades! for common sense to stage a triumphant return, isn’t it? Where did that ferocity about the Blank Slate come from?

    It’s pretty obvious why various leftist ideologies that dominated the global intellectual life in the 20th century and won a near-hegemony in its middle part require the blank slate as an essential intellectual underpinning. If humans aren’t blank slates at birth, then it’s highly questionable whether humanity can ever be perfected by ideologically-guided interventions, whether unprecedented social arrangements dreamed up by angry utopianist intellectuals can ever end up as anything but disastrous failures, and whether the received wisdom from the past is really just a load of superstitious and oppressive dogmatic nonsense.

    That said, it’s not like the rejection of the blank slate will instantly give us the correct answers. Human minds are obviously pre-wired in certan ways, but it will take lots of hard work by many brilliant minds to give us any reliable indication on how exactly. Unfortunately, we’re already seeing the emergence of what I like to call the “anti-PC PC” mentality, where even the most shaky and filmsy arguments and theories about genetic determinism and group differences coming from fringe scientific figures are worshiped as Holy Writ just because they contradict the prevalent PC attitudes, and anyone trying to rationally point out their flaws is dismissed out of hand as a PC politruk. I’m seriously annoyed when I see how many otherwise excellent minds of the Right are falling for this trend.

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  157. Unfortunately, we’re already seeing the emergence of what I like to call the “anti-PC PC” mentality, where even the most shaky and filmsy arguments and theories about genetic determinism and group differences coming from fringe scientific figures are worshiped as Holy Writ just because they contradict the prevalent PC attitudes, and anyone trying to rationally point out their flaws is dismissed out of hand as a PC politruk. I’m seriously annoyed when I see how many otherwise excellent minds of the Right are falling for this trend.

    AMEN.

    I predict this urge to embrace everything anti-PC just because it’s anti-PC and automatically reject anything PC just because it is PC will seriously marginalize the conservative movement if it continues to grow.

    Even though PC sentiments are often wrong, sometimes the PC view actually IS the correct view. A lot of the anti-PC crowd on the right end up throwing out the baby with the bathwater in their blanket rejections of everything that is not offensive to the PC mind.

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  158. nature and nurture mutually inform each other. genes code potentials only — much is determined by how and when they are turned on and off, and that’s heavily influenced by environmental factors.

    hedonism is the pursuit of pleasure, but humans can get pleasure in all sorts of ways. to define it narrowly as immediate physical gratification strikes me as a bit silly, even more so to limit it to personal sexual gratification.

    few people can be ‘hedonists’ in a purely self-centered way, because the emotional life of the non-psychopathic human brain is heavily impacted by our effects on others.

    Roissy is on-target with his materialist view of consciousness and the lack of overarching meaning to existence, but my pursuit of pleasure takes a decidedly left-radical politics in pursuit of the “in-it-together” world I want to live in, and the general pursuit of emotional rather than sexual gratification (or rather, the confluence of the two). As far as I’m concerned, cycling through women for sex is the emotional equivalent of being obsessed with breasts – a great idea at 16 or even 19, but a boring prospect 10 years later.

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  159. UPDATE:

    As mentioned the other day, I have acquired the following: The Game, Mystery Method & The Red Queen. Have been reading The Game for the better part of the afternoon. In the words of Keanu Reeves: “Whoa”.

    I have decided to set aside all that I know about these matters and devote myself to learning, as taught in these books, Game. In two weeks time I will attend a big Xmas Party I’m invited to. It will be at that time that I will attempt to Field Test what these books propound, and will report back my findings.

    Mystery Method Meets The Hood, indeed.

    For those so inclined, wish Mu Luck.

    Salaam
    Mu

    PS: And Vlad, go easy on Astrology.;)

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  160. One thing I like about the Game is that it’s just really good prose in general. Strauss can really just write his ass off.

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  161. T, I wholeheartedly concur. My buddy Zam ordered the books for me and we met for breakfast at one of my favorite coffee shops to give me the books this morning. I got back home around Noon today & have been engrossed in his book eversince. Can’t put it down, had to wrench myself away to get something to eat, LOL. The amatuer social scientist in me wants to see if this really is worth its weight in gold. We’ll know, soon enough.

    And this is just the tip of the iceberg; I’ve noted other books, including Greene’s book on seduction and as well, Pimp-EXCELLENT analysis you did, btw-and other works on Evo-Psych. It looks to be quite an interesting Winter of reading.;)

    Salaam
    Mu

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  162. Not a priority, read all the other stuff first, but down the road if you get a chance read Strauss’s other non-Game stuff too. I swear, the guy could write about paint drying and make it a riveting read.

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  163. life is the pursuit. without the seeking….we fill ourselves with yardwork, and bibles, or other people, or home depot and bullshit (children). hedonism is the method to the madness.

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  164. on December 6, 2008 at 7:12 pm Comment_Totally_Useless

    *****
    Comment_About — Your exasperation is understandable but misdirected. You’re silly to be angry at old people generally, who have (like most people thru all of time) merely done what they could to get by. You should instead be angry at the irresponsible elites who have fucked a lot of nice things up. There are loads of old people who have paid for their kids’ educations and who have put money aside for their retirement, and who are just as angry at these misbehaving elites as you ought to be.

    And puh-leeze don’t go around imagining that you’re the first generation to be convinced that everything would be ultra-groovy if only their parents hadn’t screwed up so badly …
    *****
    Translating:
    Old people are privileged and generally screwed me over. But I can lay my hands on them, so I should play nice.
    Women are privileged, but I can actually retaliate, so I should play nice.
    “The Elites” are privileged and generally screwed me over, but I CAN’T retaliate, so I can be as angry as I want.

    Sounds totally unproductive.

    It’s like the retards at VDARE.com who do articles against Mail Order Brides. Because, you know, it’s immigration too. Of course, most women are pro-immigration(feel free to make me spend the ten-seconds looking it up, if you want to complain that “I don’t know that”), and making them feel the heat of competition which they so proudly ignore when dumped on men is a great way to adjust their attitude. But before we can even attempt to reason with the old person, or the woman, we need to make sure those little dears will be completely protected from the consequences of their actions. Only then, hat in hand, and assuring them that we won’t actually DO anything to upset them, can we approach the Throne, and beg for sanity.

    Sounds totally unproductive. Sounds like a plan to accomplish NOTHING.

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  165. […] claims there is no afterlife and then writes his life philosophy: My answer to the philosophical question I posed above is hedonism. It is the only rational […]

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  166. To the commentator who calls himself (herself?) comment_whatever and cuts and pastes entire responses and surrounds them with stars: It’s not arty or unique; it is annoying.

    Get a handle and learn HTML.

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  167. Oh, and you sound like fucking Soundwave from Transformers: “Translating … Totally unproductive … Soundwave superior. Autobots inferior.”

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  168. Vlad — Your points re science are of course very good, but you also show everyday life and common sense a whole lot less respect than I think they deserve. Mere matters of everyday life include sex, marriage, career choices, growing up, aging, friendship, moneymaking, how to contend with disappointment and illness … On all these matters, we wing it, depending for guidance on experience, advice, hunches, tips, inherited wisdom, religion, chitchat, art, randomness, imagination — on almost anything but science. Science and technology make my electric toothbrush work and keep the airplane aloft, which is great and all, but they don’t help me choose a mate or decide what to do with my life.

    An excessive enthusiasm for science, technology, and reason in fact played big roles in getting us into our current mess. To use architecture and urbanism as an example … For thousands of years people built cities, town, and buildings in ways that suited people pretty well. A break with these traditions and practices came in the 1920s with Euro-modernism, which emphasized abstraction, rationalism, science, hygiene, engines, mobility — a house was to be seen as a “machine for living,” downtown Paris was to be razed and replaced by a skyscraper-dotted grid, cars would take us everywhere … Powerful people adopted the style (which looked good on paper but played out terribly in actual life) … German emigres brought it to America and climbed the ladders at places like Harvard … And after WWII, with America rich and powerful and in the habit of doing things in a militaristic, top-down way, America proceeded to demolish its downtowns, build loads of glassy boxes, pave over lots of the country …

    People started turning on these developments in around 1960, and they continue to turn on them now. There was the historic preservation movement, the Jane Jacobs phenomenon, the Christopher (“A Pattern Language”) Alexander school … Later the New Urbanism and New Classicism … And all this is still going on, even while the Ivy technocrats continue to build glassy (if zanier) birdcages.

    What the modernists and technocrats (and engineers) imposed on the country is pretty much architectural Blank Slate-ism — places and buildings conceived top-down, abstractly, apart from history and tradition. It’s a bureaucratic-technological approach to housing, transportation, etc. The result was people fleeing cities and towns by the millions. And what Jacobs, Alexander, the NewUrbies, etc are doing is pretty much exactly what the evo bio (or even Game) crowd is doing/has done, which is to consciously reconstitute and revive what had been known, understood, and practiced semi-unconsciously for centuries before the politicians, engineers, and theorists pushed it off the table: the basic art of building satisfying, people-centric spaces and buildings. They’re pulling back together “common sense.”

    In other words, where building goes, it appears that common sense and inherited tradition were right all along; that science and technology and rationalism went all Blank Slate on us, and fucked a nice thing up badly; and that we’re stuck in the present day putting the commonsense pieces back together.

    Science and tech aren’t bad, of course. But 1) everyday people are right to be wary of science and tech being used against them, and 2) everyday people can’t wait around for science to finally get it right and explain everything. They have to act, behave, and live in the Now, and in order to be able to do that they’re going to rely on advice, tradition, commonsense, etc. What else have they got? So why not give it a little respect?

    By the way, it can be helpful to think of commonsense itself as an evolved thing akin to an animal or an ecosystem: a kind of encyclopedia of advice, insights, maxims, etc, that has grown and adapted and proved itself over long periods of time. It ain’t science, but it isn’t trying to be, and it’s useful (and, IMHO, awe-inspiring) in its own right.

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  169. T, will do. And again, thanks for the superlative analysis of the book Pimp. Its on my second booklist order.

    Mike Blowhard: in the Hood we have a saying-Commonsense ain’t too common these days.

    Ain’t dat da truth.;)

    Salaam
    Mu

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  170. Michael Blowhard:

    Vlad — Your points re science are of course very good, but you also show everyday life and common sense a whole lot less respect than I think they deserve. Mere matters of everyday life include sex, marriage, career choices, growing up, aging, friendship, moneymaking, how to contend with disappointment and illness … On all these matters, we wing it, depending for guidance on experience, advice, hunches, tips, inherited wisdom, religion, chitchat, art, randomness, imagination — on almost anything but science. Science and technology make my electric toothbrush work and keep the airplane aloft, which is great and all, but they don’t help me choose a mate or decide what to do with my life.

    OK, I did get carried away with a bit of hyperbole — I shouldn’t have written “trivial everyday affairs”. Of course that some of the most important and difficult issues in human life can’t be subject to a scientific approach. It wasn’t my intention to bash common sense, tradition, emotions, aesthetic sensibilities, or anything else that people can rely on in these matters.

    However, regarding the rest of your comment, I think we’re actually in agreement, only talking slightly past each other. You say:

    An excessive enthusiasm for science, technology, and reason in fact played big roles in getting us into our current mess.

    I heartily agree with this, but notice that what you call “excessive enthusiasm for science” is more or less the same thing that I was criticizing: conceited, mistaken belief that one’s seemingly plausible conclusions are scientifically validated, when in fact they are just vain speculations lacking any real scientific rigor.

    Your example of modernist architecture is about people who arrogantly assumed that they had a “scientific” approach to something that isn’t, can’t be, and shouldn’t be a domain of science. (By the way, I hate modernist architecture probably even more than you, and for very much the same reasons.) On the other hand, my above comments were about people who, with similar conceit, assume themselves competent to make conclusions about issues where a real scientific approach could probably enlighten us, but their “common sense” speculations will yield nothing but naive just-so stories.

    Science and tech aren’t bad, of course. But 1) everyday people are right to be wary of science and tech being used against them, and 2) everyday people can’t wait around for science to finally get it right and explain everything. They have to act, behave, and live in the Now, and in order to be able to do that they’re going to rely on advice, tradition, commonsense, etc. What else have they got? So why not give it a little respect?

    I didn’t mean to sound disrespectful, however it’s an undeniable fact that common sense usually works when applied to “living in the Now”, but tends to fail miserably when people apply it to issues remote from their customary experience.

    People are on average pretty good at solving problems that concern them personally and don’t contradict their basic assumptions about the way world works. Yet when it comes to more abstract issues remote from their everyday experience and not relevant to their personal business, people typically become irrational and guided primarily by emotional prejudices and wishful thinking — for an example, just listen to a typical conversation about politics or look at statistics about the prevalence of various silly superstitious beliefs.

    Note that here I’m not talking about uneducated and ignorant people. The irrational urge to jump to unjustified conclusions that feel good is strong and tempting in all of us, and in fact, intellectuals have historically been the worst offenders in this regard. That’s why self-discipline of the sort practiced by scientists is supremely important if we ever want to reach valid conclusions about matters outside of our common everyday experiences; otherwise, we’ll just spew out whatever feels good. And it really is easy to fall into this trap — after all, just observe how much more abundant superstition has been, compared to real knowledge, throughout human history.

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  171. To clarify the above post a bit further: when I mention “self-discipline of the sort practiced by scientists”, I have in mind an ideal that even most scientists don’t live up to 100% in practice (except in math). And it’s not like I believe we should all pretend to be skeptic and disinterested about everything outside our personal lives and fields of formal expertise; having opinions and disagreements is fun and sometimes even useful even when they are ultimately irrational. However, when someone wants to brand a conclusion as “scientifically proven”, *then* I think skepticism and caution should be turned to maximum, and appeals to “common sense” should not be accepted as sufficient proof.

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  172. Vlad — I think we’re totally on the same page. Eager to hear more from you about your dislike of modernist architecture too.

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  173. Mike Blowhard,
    Need another break-I’ve been hardcharging with this thing, reading these books, virtually nonstop since my last post. I often pull all-nighters, but this is on some other ish. For real.

    So, while I’m taking a break, it dawned on me that I hadn’t answered a question you put to me-why is it that there are no, or very very few, books about Game from Brothas? I think I may have an answer. I welcome anyone else, and especially T/Ricky Raw, to comment on what I’ve said here in my attempt at a response.

    As I’ve said before, I fully embrace Race Realism. Each Race has been endowed with certain gifts and abilities, as well as deficiencies. At this stage of our development as a Human Family, there are hard to ignore. Sports is perhaps the singlebiggest area that confirms this. And since I offered a Sports analogy last time, I’ll turn to that arena again to answer your question.

    I think the reason why there are few, if any, books on Game by Brothas are several. But one of them is because of the fact that Black folks in general aren’t very good at organizing things. That’s a strength of White people, particularly Jews and Anglos. Think about it. You guys come up with an idea and are able to move on it. Hence what we see with Game.

    With Brothas, its improvisational, on the spot, in the Zone. Hip Hop and Jazz, rely on this feature of Blackness, the spontaniety, the unexpected. That’s not something I don’t think one can actually write about or on. In the Hip Hop world, “freestyle” rapping is a highly praised art and skill, being able to come off the top of your head spittin’ rhymes about whatever happens to be in your line of vision; in jazz, kinda the same deal. By definition these artforms defy the kind of by-the-book flowcharts and the like that comprise Game.

    To date, there are only two books that I would consider Game-oriented: Pimp, by Iceberg Slim, and Tariq Nasheed’s book that T mentioned. I’ve read to sitdown and really comb through its pages like I’m doing now with The Game, Mystery Method and The Red Queen. But I’m pretty sure that when I do-and that will be very soon, I promise you-it will have a completey different vibe.

    If you go to T’s site and lookup the portions of Pimp that he’s analyzed so very well, you see it right there. How Beck writes is completely different from how Strauss writes. Even though both books contain glossraries at the end, Strauss’ book comes off much more as a “how to” manual as it does as an expose’ or even a quasi-autobiography, whereas with Pimp, you have to have that swing if you want to get the thing, if you know what I mean. T himself even said as much in his analysis of parts of the book; that Beck’s writing style is a lot more demanding of the reader.

    I think this improvisational thing that we Brothas have-and I suspect me and T have it, two admittedly wonky guys as far as Black folks go-is what explains why we have seen a Michael Jordan, but not a Black Phil Jackson. Sure, a Doc Rivers. But with all due respect to him, he can’t touch the hem of the former’s garment.

    That said, while we’ve all seen a Vince Lombardi, none of us can talk about a White OJ Simpson or Jim Brown, a White James Lofton or Jerry Rice. I’m drawing a serious blank. Are you?

    So yea, that would be my stab at an answer to your earlier stated question. I can see right now, that so much of what I did and do, to this day, is so innate, so “automatic pilot”, when compared to the guys I’m reading right now. I wonder what T’s take on this will be, if he can relate or if he thinks what I’m saying here is bunk.

    Oh, and by the way, I gotta give up props to Steve Sailer for really making clear to me the very real advantages a Brotha can have in any marketplace.

    Holla back

    (Whew! School was never like this)

    Salaam
    Mu

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  174. Neil Strauss is indeed an amazing writer, “The Game” completely holds up as a rich narrative on its own, with all kinds of interesting cross-cutting themes. It’s not a manual. He’s a fine reporter too; his personality sketches of all the major self-help “how to manipulate people” gurus are priceless.

    Strauss’s book on Motley Crue, “The Dirt”, is one of the best and funniest books about rock and roll I’ve ever seen. I really want to get his book on Jenna Jameson, the porn actress, as well.

    On ‘blank slateism’, I agree with whoever said above that the pendulum has gone too far. People are starting to have trouble recognizing cultural differences that go beyond those seen in the U.S., I swear some of these people believe that people are gentically encoded to live a 1950s white suburban lifestyle and anything else is either a sign of genetic inferiority or sickness. If you seriously read history and anthropology, you will see that a huge range of human cultural variation is possible. Certain natural patterns are immediately recognizable (men are always more violent and aggressive than women, people tend to be opportunistic, etc.) but they coexist with lots of variation.

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  175. Mu,
    I am football illiterate, so what are the differences between the white and black football players you referenced?

    Like


  176. @Mu- the name of the blog is dontbesilent3.
    She stopped posting there almost a year ago but it will give you an idea of what it’s like to be a woman and have random men yell and approach you on the street. The blogger described herself as someone who is very petite so that may have caused her harassers to feel more emboldened since they didn’t think she could take them down .

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  177. Chic, thanks for the reference. I’m on it-sheesh, I’m up to my eyeballs in stuff to study! LOL!

    Hello, the point I’m making is that its been shown in Sports like Basketball, Football and so on, that certain positions are better for Black versus White players and vice versa for physical AND mental reasons.

    Wide Receivers, for example, have to be able to improvise, in order to get open to make a catch; in addition, they need explosive speed; think Usain Bolt at the Olympics. Now when’s the last time you saw a White guy run like that?

    Likewise, a Quarterback is the Brains of the team on the field, second in importance only to the Coach himself. He has to know ALL of the plays, and know when each applies, which also means being able to “read defences”, what the other side of the ball is likely to do to stop him. He can make a pass right into their hands. That’s a no-no.

    White guys tend to be more cerebrally inclined, as Game, as propounded by Mystery, Strauss etc have defined and refined it. Most Brothas, present company included, by and large don’t operate that way. That’s not to say that we don’t get “training”; we do, but its not in a flowchart manner and its much more informal.

    MQ, thanks for the comments. Yup, I’ll be reading Strauss’ other stuff too, *especially* the Jenna Jameson stuff. Only heard of her and saw a few pics, never actually saw her in action, so I’m interested to read what he has to say about her.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  178. Mu, there are not many 100 meter white male sprinters who are world class but for the 200 &400 meters, you can find a number of white males who can make a final. Take Jeremy Warner,joel Woody,konstantinos kenteris for instance. There are even a few Asian sprinters(liu xiang&shingo suetsugu) who run well and get occasionally get a medal.

    For female sprinters, the final(bar last Olympic 100) & semifinals are always mixed. The 200, 400 and esp 400 meter hurdles are as much a white woman’s race as they are a blk women’s race. One one black female runner made the 400 meter final in the 2004 Olympics. A few years ago there was a book published about blacks in athletics and the author was kind of stumped when trying to explain why black women don’t dominate sports in the same manner that black males do. I also wonder why there are so few black males in field events(hammer throw &javalin) and strong man competitions.

    I think African-American domination in sports is 55%nature and 45% nurture. I also notice that Eastern Europeans do very well as group when matched up against blks. Look at Greata Zabo’s dominance in the 1500 &5000 meter races a few years ago. Look at Zhanna Pintusevich & Ekaterin Thanou going head to head with Marion Jones back in the day. Finally, notice how most of black sprinters who make the finals are from four countries, America, Jamaica, Bahamas or Trinidad& Tobago.
    Most of the world’s best distance runners seem to come from: Kenya, Ethiopia, Russia, Romania, Spain(men),Morocco, Algeria, Japan ,or China.

    google Ana Guevra(Mexico) as well.

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  179. Mu’Min — Many thanks for the ideas and info, very helpful and interesting. It all rings true to me, that’s for sure. I’m sold.

    A fast word of thanks to you, T, ChicNoir, and Nicole, by the way — you guys are doing a big service, putting up with a lot of ignorance curiosity (and, in some cases, insensitivity) on the part of the rest of us and being sweet, patient and smart about educating us despite it all. Much appreciated.

    Hey, another book for your stack? Jon Entine’s an interesting and daring journalist who’s drawn to touchy subjects. He did one five or six years back called “Taboo,” which was about sports. It’s sooooo clear in sports that some population groups excel in some ways and stink in other ways that Entine wondered 1) why it isn’t noticed and talked about more openly, and 2) if there was any biological basis for the differences. Anyway, he wrote “Taboo” about both topics. I think Mu’Min especially would find it an interesting read. He’s since written a book about the genetics of Jews (he’s Jewish himself) — haven’t yet read that one.

    I’m off to order “The Game.”

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  180. Oh, and Strauss’ Jenna Jameson book is fun.

    If you want to enjoy Jenna herself at her prime, search out her early movies and vids. What a performer she was. Not since Traci Lords … Well, I don’t really know what I’m talking about since I don’t watch many porn DVDs. But Jenna (like Traci) certainly did have something special. Unfortunately she started having too much plastic surgery, started getting hard and used-up … Of no interest to me any longer. But the early Jenna was one galvanizing erotic performer.

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  181. A fast word of thanks to you, T, ChicNoir, and Nicole, by the way — you guys are doing a big service, putting up with a lot of ignorance curiosity (and, in some cases, insensitivity) on the part of the rest of us and being sweet, patient and smart about educating us despite it all. Much appreciated.

    I learn a lot from the many of the posters here as well so I’m returning your thanks.

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  182. Mike Blowhard,
    I’ve been something of a quiet admirer of your blog since getting wind of it here and over at Sailer’s spot. Very interesting stuff. You can now say that you actually know Black people who read books, LOL.

    One of the big problems the USA continues to have, and I think this may be the ultimate good to come out of Obama’s election, is that we-meaning White and Black (and more increasingly, other groups) don’t talk to each other. And I don’t mean the nicey BS either-really talk. Sometimes that talk is gonna be rough-cant get the rain without the thunder. But I’ve always believed that through Dialogue, good things can happen. Not a given, not a guarantee, but its possible.

    Chic, I want to ask you, and any other lady reading this a straightahead question: you’ve been a member of this site for sometime now. Heard Roissy’s views, heard mine and others. Tell me, please: what is your view, impressions and feelings of Game? I ask because, I think you and the other women who are regulars here are not of the “same cloth” as the rest of the female populace; I would consider you to potentially be in that Ten Percent group (we homies here in Philly in my circle have something known as The Rule of Ten Percent). And I’d be interested in hearing what you intellectually think, and what you intuitively feel, about all of this, our differing takes on it, the whol she-bang.

    So, Ladies…Speak…

    Salaam
    Mu

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  183. Mike Blowhard,
    Yea, I’ve heard of Entine, I think Sailer’s mentioned him a number of times, also Phil Weiss if I recall alright. Now that you mention him too, I’ll definitely pick it up. Not to get sidetracked in the Science vs Commonsense debate but I think where the two converge is in the Law of Parsimony, and that’s what I always try to work with-what’s the simplest explanation for what is in front of me? Sometimes, I honestly think we make things too damn complicated for our own good. What happened to Jimmy the Greek was a travesty, Prima Facie evidence of the Evil Political Correctness can do. The man was only saying what we all knew to be true, and he was sent to the gallows for it. That’s ballocks, man.

    So, yup, Mu is most definitely a “Race Man” as they would say in Black America, LOL. And proud of it.

    On Porn: I’ve always been of the view that it can be very helpful if one knows how to use it and not get used *by* it, if you know what I mean. But, I’ve noticed something as I’ve immersed myself into the Seduction Community since earlier in the Fall, and that’s just how bad so many guys are when it comes to, I don’t know, *basic* stuff in his regard? And this is really apparent in the porno stuff. Almost makes you feel sorry for the women in the movies, you know?

    Hmmph.

    And Dave from the Island (HI) is spot on about the Utility of Game being a huge help to a Marriage. In fact, just from where I sit right now, I have no problem or fear of rebuke or reprisal in saying, that a Married Man needs Game far and away more than a Bachelor. He’s in it for the Long Haul, and he’s gotta keep those fires stoked. We all know what I’m talking about here.

    OK, holla back

    Salaam
    Mu

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  184. so what are the differences between the white and black football players you referenced?

    — The positions that are predominantly white:

    Offense:

    The Offensive Linemen: a position that requires size, strength, discipline, and cooperation; speed and agility too, but not as much as their opponent, the defensive lineman. The OLs (a) provide protection for the Quarterpack on passing plays or (b) open running lanes for the Running Back on running plays. The OL isn’t necessarily very quick, but he has to be a big guy who is smart and disciplined in order to coordinate their movement with other OLs. Tons of memorization of complicated offensive schemes. The least “showboat” position in football, custom-made for a workhorse unsung-hero type.

    The Quarterback is the premier position in football. The QB is all-around athlete. Must be a natural leader, be smart (tons of memorization), be reasonably quick on his feet, able to improvise when things fall apart, and it helps to be tall and strong. This is predominantly a white position, although there are some very decent black quarterbacks too.

    The Tight End: a jack of all trades, master of none. He has to be a competent blocker for the Running Back or to protect the Quarterback; must memorize tons of complex offensive schemes; has to be fast for short-distance sprints to receive a pass; must have reliable catching-hands.

    Special Teams:

    Kickers are usually white too. Punters just need a strong leg, while field goal kickers need to have nerves of steel, as they have to concentrate and kick accurately under duress.

    Defense:

    There are white men in defensive positions, but overall, defenses are predominantly black.

    — The positions that are predominantly black:

    Offense:

    Wide Receiver: this position requires two main things: a world-class sprinting speed, and ability to catch a fast-thrown ball. There is a good deal of memorization of offensive shcemes involved, so the WR needs to be a smart guy.

    Running Back: must be very fast, quick, and strong in order to break through a line of defensive players who are trying to stop his advance. Ability to improvise is very important — if the defense thwarts a planned running attack, a good RB will find another way around.

    Defense:

    Defensive Lineman, Linebacker: those guys have to be lightning-quick in order to either attach a quarterback who is truing to find someone to throw the ball to, or stop the Running Back. The’re big guys, but not in the big/solid way of the offensive lineman; they are instead fast, reactive types.

    Cornerback, Safety: they are as fast as the wide receivers, but play the position eithe rbecause they don’t catch the ball well, or because they are good at following the wide receiver and anticipating his moves.

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  185. Married Man needs Game far and away more than a Bachelor. He’s in it for the Long Haul, and he’s gotta keep those fires stoked.

    Absolutely correct. A man can always move on and get a new girlfirend.

    But if he screws up on the marriage front, he’s not only ruined something he’s invested a whole lot of himself into, but also then has to deal either with a loveless wife or a divorce.

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  186. @chicnoir, I just read a bit of that dontbesilent3 blog. It is great.

    I get the feeling she may have stopped blogging because of the idiot left-wing progressives who harassed her for going off at some proles, which was the post where she went off at some young thug proles for swearing on public transport. When she told them to shut up they tried to fight her and even followed her off the bus trying to fight her.

    Then the progressive types have the gall to come on in the blog comments section and harass her for going off at them.

    It exemplifies what is wrong with idiot left winger’s worldview. Loud mouthed violent street thugs = victims. People telling off said thugs = evil authoritarians who should be mocked.

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  187. @WTF-I’m glad you enjoyed the blog. I was very sad when she stoped posting. I think she got grief from both sides of the equation. A few men posted there saying she should be happy some guy took the time out of his day to complement her etc…. There are also the hollaback DC and NYC blogs when you get a chance. I like riding public transportation but I have many complaints about it. Prole thugs, white collar workers who want to take up two seats with their brief cases, loud mouth women talking on cellphones letting us all hear what they did with so&so’s boyfriend last night, strange men rubbing against you * trying to make eye contact, horrible smelling people(not all of whom are homeless),beggers etc…

    I should add that beggars in NYC will at least attempt to offer some form of entertainment before they ask for your money. In other areas, they just ask for a dollar( spare change is not enough).

    @mu-I’m coming

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  188. Chic,
    Once when I was standing on a bus a man bent over at the waist to touch his toes and rubbed his butt against me. Shortly thereafter he got off the bus and walked into a mosque.

    (no disrespect Mu)

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  189. “A few men posted there saying she should be happy some guy took the time out of his day to complement her etc…. ”

    Sometimes those guys are just being crudely complimentary but a lot think that an attractive, well put together woman must needs to be taken down a notch or they’d rather make her uncomfortable and frightened than for her to ignore them.

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  190. Hello,
    Oh, not at all. I don’t see a man would do such a thing to a woman he does not know at all. I feel as strongly about such inappropriate behavior from that man as I do of the Butt Crack Women I see all too often these days. What is up with that? God, that’s so offensive.

    As for really good looking women needing to be knocked down a peg, that’s what they invented the Neg for. Artfully used, its the Silent Kill.;)

    Salaam
    Mu

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  191. That’s disgusting hello. Did he at least say excuse me?

    A few years the New York Post linked to a study about sexual harassment on the NYC metro system. An overwhelmingly large number of women said that they had been sexually harassed and or molested. A number of women mentioned having men masturbate in front or near them on the train. One woman mentioned having a man ejaculate on her blouse in clear view of other passengers when she was on a train. Not one person stepped in to help her.

    There was a story of a man who was sent to prison, for a few days(?), in Italy for “eye raping” a woman daily on the train. I’ve gotten my share of street harassment from random men but I think what protects me is my height and the fact that I weigh more than 100 lbs. I notice when talking to other women, that the most petite and slim seem to encounter an unusually high number of street harassment with strange men. I think the same maybe be said of young innocent looking white women. Height is intimidating even with the taller person is a woman. I can recall hanging out with a taller much heavier woman once, as we were talking some man walked up to ask us for money. We told him no but instead of walking away; he came closer and asked in a more aggressive manner. The other woman who was at least 6ft and 250lbs, jumped up and moved as if to she was going to attacked him. The man took to his heals and mentioned something about not wanting to get f ‘ed up

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  192. Mu’Min: Can’t get the rain without the thunder.

    There’s a lot of wisdom in that little sentence. I’m going to be stealing it and using it myself — thanks in advance.

    PA — That’s a great intro to football generally.

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  193. that certain positions are better for Black versus White players and vice versa for physical AND mental reasons

    Is it me, or am I the only one who finds this to be depressing.

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  194. Mike Blowhard,
    I can’t lay claim to that quote: its from the great American Frederick Douglass himself.;)

    Chic, yea, I’ve heard of that study in NYC. Had no idea it was that bad. Looks like Whiskey’s analysis in this regard is bearing fruit, sad to say.

    Dave Alex, YOU’RE DEPRESSED? By what I said? Please, please, please, explain that to a Brotha. I gotta hear this one.

    Still waitin’ on ya, Chic…

    Salaam
    Mu

    PS: And yea, kudos to PA for an excellent primer on Football, too.;)

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  195. Roissy,

    Think of the little ones you were playing with; how joyful they are and how natural they are. Do you think they ask, “What is the meaning of life?” There is no meaning. Only our logical mind insists there must be, so we try to create meaning where there is none. In our misery we want to know what it all means. In our happiness, we don’t bother asking or caring. If there were meaning life would not be fun at all.

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  196. Chic,
    It wasn’t an accident. He saw me, bent over and rubbed his butt against me in a pseudo crunk move. He then stood up and grinned at me with that “whatcha gonna do?” look. At 5’1 I can tell you that being petite does invite it, esp. with Hispanic men. For that reason I adopt a very chilly face when walking through (it must be said) high minority neighborhoods like Columbia Heights.

    Mu,
    The artful neg as applied by Rhett Butler (excuse me while I momentarily melt) is between acquaintances who choose to interact. Walking down the street doesn’t apply in this sense. Sometimes these crudely humorous bleatings can simply be taken in boistrous masculinity, but I can tell which ones are meant maliciously. There’s nothing flirtatious about a stranger making sexual remarks toward me because he knows he’d otherwise be off my radar and he needs the attention.

    Women who need a lot of attention from the opposite sex just dress slutty and men are quite happy to give it. If a guy lacks money and status he can try to make up for it with crude insults.

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  197. For that reason I adopt a very chilly face when walking through (it must be said) high minority neighborhoods like Columbia Heights.

    Yes, this will help you greatly. I have an evil stare as well and it works wonders. If you are walking thru an area and a man is looking at you in a way that you think he is going to say something stupid, tell him “merry Christmas” or Happy New Years”(in June) before he can get his stupid comment out. That way, you throw him off completely and by the time he gets it together, you will have put distance between the two of you. He may also think you are crazy, and for some reason people respect or fear the physical strength of crazy people.

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  198. Dave Alex, YOU’RE DEPRESSED? By what I said?

    The whole “white people are quarterbacks while black people are running backs” or “whites can’t win track and field gold medals while blacks can’t win swimming medals” is kinda depressing.

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  199. DA,

    Whenever someone here tries to pep talk you or give you ideas of things you can accomplish with your life, you always shoot them down and talk about how there’s no hope of you accomplishing anything positive with yourself. So why would it depress you to hear limiting things about blacks when it seems like you already had so many limiting beliefs about yourself anyway. I’d understand if you thought you could accomplish anything you wanted in life, then you heard some race realism figures and then got depressed. But in your case you seemed to already have low expectations for yourself.

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  200. “The other woman who was at least 6ft and 250lbs, jumped up and moved as if to she was going to attacked him. The man took to his heals and mentioned something about not wanting to get f ‘ed up”

    Could the desire to intimidate be a covert reason that black women are more often overweight than white ones?

    Black women often seem able to carry more weight. When I worked at a boutique I met very fit and athletic-looking black woman, not fat by any standard but in possession of a butt, who surprised me when she wanted to see size 14 dresses. A white 14 would usually be dumpier than this in-shape woman. Are American clothes not cut well for African American body types? An Asian American friend told me that he likes shopping in Hong Kong because the clothes fit better. For all that I criticize immigration from a political standpoint, the increased presence of short, wide-hipped, round-assed Hispanic women has helped me find clothes more easily.

    In high school when Latinos and Asians were less visible to advertisers I also had a harder time finding cosmetics for my skin tone. Fuck immigration but God bless diversity!

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  201. you always shoot them down and talk about how there’s no hope of you accomplishing anything positive with yourself

    You mean the stuff about completing school and using that to find a decent job? That, I’m well aware of the fact that I need to do that. As I’ve said, once those two factors work out, then I can feel much better since I’ll be a “functioning” member of society. Until then, I’m just a big boy with some spending money from a part-time job. Of course, in theory, I could now date prole girls or acquiesce and learn teh game, but those relationships are short-term and will go nowhere since a prole girl just reminds me of my low status, and I’ll always feel insecure around the middle class woman because she’s “better” than me.

    So why would it depress you to hear limiting things about blacks when it seems like you already had so many limiting beliefs about yourself anyway.

    The theory was that even if I screwed up, black people as a whole are capable of being *real* equals with white people, and that we could “save” other black people. In other words, the idea that one day, we’d no longer be over-represented in statistics such as poverty and criminality, but proportionally or even over-represented in college completion, high incomes, professional employment, management, and other positive features. It’s not enough to simply be legally equal because true equality comes from financial parity.

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  202. I must also add that I fear that white nationalists will use these facts to whip up widespread public support for both public and private limitations on the black population. I’m already paranoid about traveling to places with no black people and no liberals to “save me” (e.g outside of urban cores which is admittedly highly restricting for railfanning, roadgeeking, or photography) from racists, the last thing I want is to feel that I need to move to Haiti to feel safe.

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  203. In other words, the idea that one day, we’d no longer be over-represented in statistics such as poverty and criminality, but proportionally or even over-represented in college completion, high incomes, professional employment, management, and other positive features. It’s not enough to simply be legally equal because true equality comes from financial parity.

    Well, broadly speaking there are two possibilities.

    1. We’ll converge to true equality as long as we provide a fair playing field and let dysfunctional subcultures die out. If so, great!

    2. That’s not enough, but if we add in access to germline engineering tech (or something with similar effects) for everyone, something that should be possible within a few decades, we’ll converge to true equality then. Less pleasant, but still turns out fine in the long run if we’re willing to let everyone use germline engineering.

    Either way, success will require some pain (more in the latter than the former case, of course), but that is ultimately temporary while the potential happy ending isn’t so temporary (assuming nothing happens to wipe out the entire human race, anyway… admittedly this is a questionable assumption). I have absolutely no respect for you when you insist on financial parity while refusing to accept the pain required to get there.

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  204. Dave Alex,
    Haven’t you listened to a darned thing ANY of us have said? Have you actually read The Game? Hmm? My man, you give the most lame excuses in the world as to why you can’t, more like won’t, get laid. And I’m not talking about three times a day here. Once a month would be watershed for you. Seriously.

    Dave, all that stuff you just mentioned about “White Nationalists” and “true Equality”-didn’t you see what Michael Blowhard said to ME-a “Prole”?

    And I’m telling you, as a stompdown, Union card carrying, Blackass Prole, that what you do for a living’s got NOTHING to do w/who you screw. Period. Dave, I can’t remember the last gal I’ve had who DIDN’T have at least a BA. Nor can I recall the last gal I had who came from the Inner City like me. I didn’t know Game, but I knew enough to know that a Man should ALWAYS date and screw above his paygrade. Men need something to reach for, and this especially includes Women.

    You place entirely too many Bullshit-and that’s what it is man, BULLSHIT restrictions on yourself. It ain’t got nothin’ to do with “the Race”, College, Railfanning, being from Haiti, living in NYC, or whatever else, but YOU.

    And you know the real fucked up thing about it Dave? You are actually a cool guy. Just the other day I think it was Chic and someone else…anyway, they were talking about your genteel ways. Chich, Hello and other ladies will tell you-heck, Chich was JUST TALKING ABOUT THIS a little while ago-that such a guy is no longer commonplace anymore. So, that’s a huge selling point. I know it is for me.

    Because in that respect we’re the same. Oh, I’ve got the Hood in me alright. But I also like to think that I had some good hometrainin’, too. So, I try to carry myself a little better than where I fit on the social scale of American life. That’s why I read as much as I do, try to immerse in as many things as I do, heck strive to be the best at work. I may never burn up the courtroom or be a hotshot trader on Wall Street, but I’m proud of the fact that I’m part of a dying breed of Knockaround Guys who make it possible for this Big Mutha called the United States of America to get movin’ and keep movin’. We’re the guys who do the grunt work that everyone else relies on. Without us, America would perish.

    And let me say something else, too-from what you told me and everyone else here in this forum, you had soooooooo many chances to get some serious sex from your numerous ladyfriends, if you just showed a *little bit* of ummmph. Very, very few Women, will make the first move. Personally, I don’t think they’re wired for it from an EP POV. And, like Mystery says, once you miss that window, its very hard, if not damn near impossible, to reopen it.

    Dave, I’m tellin’ ya, if you had just a thimble capfull of Game your life would change overnight.

    There’s nothing wrong with wanting to improve oneself, getting ahead, education, all of it. Nothing at all.

    But that has little, and I would and will, honestly say, that it has NOTHING to do with what I’m talking about here, Dave. Nothing.

    I have never, not once, had a Woman razz on me about what I do for a living, man. Not. Once. It was irrelevant. It was all about ME as a person.

    Dave, you’re letting Life pass you by, like those trains you’re into (which oddly enough, doesn’t sound that bad of a hobby to me; Men need Hobbies, I’ve concluded), but unlike those trains, once its gone, its gone. And the real irony is, it doesn’t have to be. You can do something about it, man. And it don’t take four years-plus and putting yourself in hock to do it.

    If you’re really concerned about moving the Race ahead, start with yourself. That’s what I do. Everyday I step outta my door I tell my self that I’m representin’ a different face of Black America-and that includes everytime I touch a computer keyboard, too. One of the biggest and saddest things about too many in Black America-Bill Cosby got into major trouble for saying this-is that we don’t take advantage of so many opportunities that are just waiting for us to use them.

    Where you are, right now, is no different, Dave. People from T/Ricky Raw to Roissy himself look at you and shake their head. Its no different than folks from the Black Burbs to the White looking at hoodrats and shaking their head.

    Things have changed, my man. Wake up.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  205. mu’min

    props.

    very well written.

    i think there’s less than a 50% chance that your intended audience really exists, but some lurker out there just got a very valuable wake-up call.

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  206. And yea, kudos to PA for an excellent primer on Football, too.;)

    Thanks Michael and Mu!

    By the way, I sold short the Defensive Linemen and Linebacker positions in my somewhat tepid description of them. It’s important to stress the fact that those guys are big, but also — most importantly — fast, furious, aggressive, and with a killer instinct. Think Offensive Linemen: a stone wall; Defensive Linemen: a killer tsunami.

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  207. on December 8, 2008 at 10:18 am ironrailsironweights

    The whole “white people are quarterbacks while black people are running backs” or “whites can’t win track and field gold medals while blacks can’t win swimming medals” is kinda depressing.

    People of different races sometimes have different physical attributes. It follow, then, that different races occasionally specialize in different sports. It’s basic human nature, and shouldn’t be depressing. In a way it’s good, as it shows the full variety of the human species.

    PA –
    I’m not a football fan (perish the thought!), but it’s my impression that offensive lines are much less white-dominated today than even a decade ago. More and more blacks are playing on the o-line, especially at tackle.

    Peter

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  208. imagine i read all that shit.

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  209. MuMin, I would be supremely surprised if ‘Mystery’ style stuff didn’t work for you on black urban women. I’ve seen it done. Perhaps because of the cultural reality of unstable family structures, things like “who cheats more?” elicit strong reactions.

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  210. Chic and Hello, I can say for a fact that size is a protective factor for women. Some women gain weight because they subconsciously fear being small. It’s a kind of body dysmorphia similar to some bodybuilders.

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  211. I try to carry myself a little better than where I fit on the social scale of American life. That’s why I read as much as I do, try to immerse in as many things as I do, heck strive to be the best at work. I may never burn up the courtroom or be a hotshot trader on Wall Street, but I’m proud of the fact that I’m part of a dying breed of Knockaround Guys who make it possible for this Big Mutha called the United States of America to get movin’ and keep movin’. We’re the guys who do the grunt work that everyone else relies on. Without us, America would perish
    Epic comment Mu
    Hello saidFor all that I criticize immigration from a political standpoint, the increased presence of short, wide-hipped, round-assed Hispanic women has helped me find clothes more easily
    LOL, yes I agree. I have a friend who wears a size two but because of her bubble butt has trouble finding pants that fit her well.

    Could the desire to intimidate be a covert reason that black women are more often overweight than white ones?

    It’s a 20% difference separating the number wht who are overweight versus the # blk women who are overweight. So it’s large but not huge. I think for a lot of overweight blk and white women(talking 300lbs here), they use there weight as a form of protection. Certainly, those black women who grow up in bad neighborhoods can use a little extra weight as a shield. The weight shield works well if it is combined if it is combined with a height of 5’8+. Besides, being to big will push, a black woman out of the meat maket. Beyonce & red head from Mad Men = good. Queen Latifah and Rosie O’donold =not good.

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  212. Nicole, I’ve read about how women who are victims of abuse and rape often turn to food to bulk up so they can make themselves less attractive to men.

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  213. Dave, I can’t remember the last gal I’ve had who DIDN’T have at least a BA

    Have you ever considered that the girls may be slumming around with you just for fun? You may be boyfriend material for “now”, but not anything useful in a long-term context. How many girls would openly want to tell their parents that they’re dating you?

    As I said, the degree and the career are for me to finally feel complete and meet the basic goals for myself. Until then, I’ll always feel incomplete and broken until then even if I hang around with friends who didn’t finish school. Every May and June are depressing because you watch other people who graduate and beat you into the career world while another crop of students are entering college. Then of course, there’s the parade of complaints from the parents and other family members…

    I knew enough to know that a Man should ALWAYS date and screw above his paygrade

    The problem that I’ve found with various paranoid thoughts that the girl will simply bail when somebody who’s better and equal to her rank comes along, especially if he has more appealing characteristics.

    anyway, they were talking about your genteel ways

    I am not genteel. I’m simply an average prole in the ‘burbs.

    from what you told me and everyone else here in this forum, you had soooooooo many chances to get some serious sex from your numerous ladyfriends, if you just showed a *little bit* of ummmph. Very, very few Women, will make the first move

    Stupid women expecting the men to make the move. 😛

    Seriously, I lucked out with the older woman because she made the first move and every move from that point onward. It made things less complicated and made everything very easy, and I was confident in knowing that’s what she wanted. Now if made the move, it leads into a void of uncertainty that I’d rather avoid to avoid embarrassment or legal troubles.

    As for the friends, two of them were the “Queens” who were better than me, while the majority of the others were girls that fell into my sexless friend zone because they were simply unattractive to me. There were maybe one or two girls that were doable, but I never bothered because I figured that they were too school oriented to bother with sex (smarter than me) or a boyfriend. In retrospect, thanks to porn, I’ve always wondered what I found attractive in those girls since they’re theoretical 4s or 5s…

    If one chooses to count “people I talked to in class”, those women didn’t fall into the friend zone, but I never bothered asking them out because I figured (rightly, IMHO) that they’d never go out with me for various reasons, or they had existing relationships.

    There’s nothing wrong with wanting to improve oneself, getting ahead, education, all of it. Nothing at all.

    I agree, but improvement doesn’t magically require the game to be functional. As I said before, game isn’t for me, but it can be for other men who want to improve their lives.

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  214. Dave Alex,
    Whoo Boy, where to begin…

    OK, let’s start with the whole “Slummin'” thing. Who’d want to be seen with me, you ask?

    Oh, I don’t know, I guess I sat around the dinner table umpteen times with several of the Ladies I’d been with over the years, including the gal I mentioned in the newest thread, you know the red-headed Half Black-Half Filipina gal “J”? She’s one of those BAPs, Dave, me and her Dad used to have a ball hanging out when I visited.

    Same deal with another “J”, but she was all Black and had a killer rack, 44EE if I recall alright. And could squirt so hard when she came she could sandblast the pavement outside. Went to art school not far from where Roissy lives, her peeps live in one of the Black Burns right outside Philly. Me and her dad frequently went to football games together.

    Then there’s “M”, out in one of the RICHEST counties in the entire country; her dad actually gave me advice that made it possible for me to get TWO raises in the same WEEK, on top of other nice perks in my job. Indeed, had it not been for “M”‘s daddy, I might’ve been put over a barrell when the VP of Ops laid me off one Summer, cutting my salarly nearly in half. Thanks to M’s daddy though, not only didn’t that happen, I got a 30% raise as a result-and the VP came on the Shop Floor and BEGGED ME TO COME BACK TO SECOND SHIFT because the FIVE knuckleheads he hired to replace me-one man-damn near blew up the place and destroyed a half a million dollar piece of equipment. His job was on the line and I knew it, thanks to M’s daddy.

    Now, let’s check the scenario here, Dave. Why would three different men, fathers of Good Girls, accomplished girls, want to be bothered with a “Prole” like me? Hmm? Especially in the latter case-why would M’s daddy want to help me?

    Could it have anything to do with what Mike Blowhard said earlier to me?

    You see Dave, when I said, that a Man should always date and screw above his pay grade, that’s not just a pithy throwaway line for me. I value myself too much to fuck just any and everything, to be quite frank about it. I want to align myself with a Woman who’s got a head on her shoulders and can actually be an asset to me, not just a piece of Ass. Which explains why, in the past two weeks alone, I’ve turned down three chicks, because I don’t go Slumming.

    You can rationalize till the Cows Come Home, Dave. You can make all the excuses as to why you can’t do this, won’t do that, you can talk all the Keith Sweat Shit all you want, but you don’t fool me one lil bit, “I’m Gonna, I’m Gonna”. Um-hmm. Meanwhile Life keeps passing you by.

    But I’ll tell you what Dave-you can prove me, Roissy, T/Ricky, Chic, all of us, dead wrong. You go and do your thing and check back and show us. I for one will gladly eat my words.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  215. My answer to the philosophical question I posed above is hedonism. It is the only rational conclusion one can draw faced with the premises I presented.

    My moral beliefs are internalized, they don’t come from an external source like a higher power. The realization that there’s no afterlife would change nothing. I would continue as usual.

    Your conclusion is your own opinion, not “the only rational conclusion.”

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  216. Hmm, too many comments to read through, so I’m probably repeating someone else here.

    It’s funny, I start with the same presuppositions as you (no God, no afterlife, no nothin) and end up with different conclusions. But someone else mentioned some of the Greek philosophers who also did the same thing as me, i.e. come up with different conclusions (Epicurus, Seneca), so it’s hardly original of me.

    Anyways, your conclusion is that if there’s no God and no afterlife, everything is permitted and pleasure is the main thing. But I conclude that people still have souls (not in a religious sense, but still in a real sense), and therefore have intrinsic value that operates according to quite different rules than the “market value” that bodies have. The implication of people having souls and intrinsic value is that one ought to treat them as ends in themselves, rather than as means to an end (like your pleasure). (I suppose I end up not too far off from Kant, although I don’t understand him so well and probably my reasoning is somewhat different.)

    Did you ever read The Unbearable Lightness of Being? Tereza, the main female character, is always worried about having her soul recognized. I think a lot of women worry about that. And a mindset like yours that doesn’t see either men or women as having souls is mistaken in a big way. You’re left with a set of half-truths, even though you clearly pride yourself so much on brutal honesty.

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  217. If you read that, you’re probably thinking, why on earth would someone who doesn’t believe in God or an afterlife believe in the human soul, and what does that even mean, a soul? Isn’t that just mystical babble? Aren’t we just machines with all the pulleys and buttons and whatnot?

    One way to understand what I mean by “soul” is to say that the soul is a person’s potential for good, while the surface self – the self you are to other people and to your own unfolding consciousness – is a person’s actuality. In a way the soul is the real person, more real than the surface self, because it enfolds more of what makes the person who they are, it comprises the breadth and depth of their possibility.

    It’s like you were looking at a solid cubical object. You see the surface of the cube, and below the surface there’s the hidden inwardness of it. Is the inwardness real? Yes. Can you see it? No. Would there be any surface to the cube without the inner substance? No. The surface takes its shape from the inwardness and is determined by it, the potentiality for the shape of the surface exists in the cube’s inwardness. The shape it takes is the cube’s actuality. This inwardness is a lot like what I see as the soul.

    Why would a soul have a value? The soul is the truth of a person’s being, the same way the hidden inwardness of the cube is the substance of its being. I think if a person looks inward at the truth of their being, what they will discover if they look long and hard enough is a love of beauty and goodness. That is to say, the soul is the seat of our longing for The Good. Our surface selves are what comes out of our efforts to actualize our longing for The Good. We might be more or less successful at actualizing this longing and at making the potential for good a reality – how successful we are is contingent on many things like luck and how conscious we are in the first place of the truth of our being, i.e. of our longing for the Good.

    Finding your soul (or finding yourself), means becoming conscious of the truth of your being, which means becoming conscious of your longing for The Good. And losing your soul means losing sight of the truth of your inwardness, the truth of your being, your potential for realizing The Good.

    Souls have intrinsic value because the longing for The Good that comprises the soul (the truth of one’s being) is beautiful in itself.

    Just as there can be no surface to the cube without an inner substance, there can be no surface self or body without a soul. But the reverse is also true – there can’t be a soul without a body, no substance without delimiting shape and actuality.

    The body or surface self has value that is limited to its usefulness and attraction relative to other people’s wants. Its value is determined much like that of goods in a marketplace, according to laws of economics, supply and demand. The labor market, for example, or the dating market.

    But the soul’s value is not limited or even defined, because that is the very meaning of what the soul is. And while in the market of surface selves there are scarce resources of largely similar goods (one competent accountant can be replaced with another, one pretty girl can be replaced with another), in the economy of souls you are dealing with a market in which every item is unique and irreplaceable – because, again, this is exactly what it means to be a soul in the first place, because a person’s soul is the essence of what they are – your soul is what makes you *you* and not someone else, it is your potential and no one else’s. The economy of souls is one where rather than having a scarce supply of similar replaceable goods, there is an infinite supply of unique and irreplaceable goods.

    The fact that there are two simultaneous and quite different economies going on whenever you deal with human beings is what makes things like labor ethics and erotic ethics complicated. You don’t worry and don’t need to worry about the feelings of the potatoes that you are buying and selling. You do need to worry about the feelings of people whom you want and from whom you want something. There is more to consider than your own pleasure and what would be useful to you. Just as you would be a fool to take a unique and irreplaceable painting by a master artist and use it as a tablemat, you would be a fool to take a person and use them like you would a plow or a robot, because the person has a soul that is as unique and irreplaceable and priceless as the painting.

    So that’s where my principle that people should be treated as ends in themselves comes from. It has nothing to do with God or an afterlife or religion, but a lot to do with acknowledging that there is a reality beyond the surface of things that is just as real.

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  218. In sum, your “ugly truths” about bodies and their market value are only half-truths (and therefore as good as lies), because they are not the whole truth.

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  219. When there is no heaven, you must strive for heaven on earth.

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  220. […] on something rubbery and heard a squeak. Since I was fully turgid and throbbing with urgency, I paid it no heed. In the morning, I woke up first and rubbed my eyes. There were children’s toys littered on […]

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  221. […] do not seem to be religious– they tend, overwhelmingly, to be secular and, in some cases, militant atheists. I would not categorize them as social conservatives. Social conservatives tend to view human […]

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  222. on September 19, 2010 at 1:45 am Gunslingergregi

    ”””Stan
    When there is no heaven, you must strive for heaven on earth.
    ””””’

    That makes sense.

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  223. I did this thought experiment myself; unfortunately, somewhere along the way I’d stopped caring about life, death, pain, and pleasure.

    I wound up instead at something very like familial Nationalism (yes, I realise that nationalism stems from natal etc etc).

    Basically, if that’s the case the only thing that seems worth doing is protecting and growing one’s family – eventually to supremacy over all others. This would of course include a family eugenics program, as well as something like Spartan training for all the up and coming boys.

    It’s all the appeals to me, anyway. The position as Patriarch Emperor over thousands (and future millions) of descendents, consuming the earth and driving all others into extinction.

    Too many Pak Protector genes?

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  224. Hey. I am happy I’ve found this page, I’ve been trying to remember the web address. Anyway I would just like to thank you for your time and the posting, I’ve enjoyed it. I have saved as a favorite it and also subscribed to the RSS feeds.

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