Why A Cheating Woman Is Worse Than A Cheating Man

Collateral baggage:

A mother told an inquest she did not know she had given birth until flushing her baby down a toilet by accident.

Claire Jones, 32, became pregnant after an affair with a work colleague but hid her condition from friends and family.

Here are photos of the whore, her cuckolded beta hubby, and her alpha lover:

whore

ringoffire

Guess which man above is the alpha interloper and who is the tooled beta. Explain your reasoning. Points given for incisive analysis.

She said she planned to leave [her beta provider], and her work colleague [alpha lover], who was aware of the pregnancy, bought items for the baby in preparation for his birth.

When asked why she did not leave [her beta provider] before the baby was due, she replied: “Things had got in such a mess with the two relationships. I didn’t want to hurt anybody. I just messed everything up.”

When dispensing the cruel but necessary judgement of public shaming, it’s important to understand that women follow their animal instincts, and thus a utilitarian justification for shaming carries as much weight as the umbrage of moral righteousness. Many whores subconsciously assess the risk of discovery worth the upsides — she gets the best of both worlds in a duped beta hubby continuing to support her while acquiescing impotently to her withdrawal of sex, and the seed of an alpha male who chips in some resources of his own to help raise his bastard child.

Before the picture of the whore was released, commenters to the original story were incredulous that a woman could not know she was pregnant. This led to some hilarious speculation:

I bet she’s a porker. Otherwise, it’s hard to believe you could give birth and just think you were having a wet BM. Does anyone have a 7-8 pound BM? Disgusting.

I don’t believe that a woman can’t tell what is coming out of where. Cause they sure as heck know what is going in and where.

Must have been a low flow. A good toilet wouldn’t have left any pesky feet!

british society = flushed headfirst down a toilet.

Shout out to fire and brimstone reader Shouting Thomas: I’m glad the baby died. Both the whore and her lover have been denied a genetic legacy, and the beta husband has avoided a fate that is the equivalent of female rape — unknowingly raising another man’s child.





Comments


  1. The man on the left is the cuckolded partner; his jaw is slimmer than the other man’s and he looks abashed and unsure of himself whereas the other man looks calm and steady. However, the two photos were obviously chosen to provoke such a narrative.

    Not all cheating women get pregnant.

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  2. That story of a cheating woman was bad. This one is worse. But, even worse than what she did, is how her Uber-Beta husband reacted.

    http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20081126/NEWS/81126006

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  3. Why aren’t they both betas? Wouldn’t an alpha hook up with someone who was attractive/skinny? And the ‘alpha’ was happy about the baby and buying stuff in preparation for it? idgi…

    I don’t see a skinny woman not knowing she was pregnant

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  4. Anonymous,
    That woman’s surely mentally ill or was on drugs. Women are better at covering their tracks when they cheat.

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  5. Guys are so dumb, including you, roissy. STOP CALLING PROMISCUOUS WOMEN WHORES AND SHAMING THEM! This NOT what you want as a guy. You WANT promiscuity in women. Jesus people. Also, it makes you look weak yourself actually.

    And to answer your questions – guy on the left is our winning beta, but I don’t know what you can tell from two random pictures. It’d be easy to find pics of the guy on the right being beta too. The guy could just as easily be another alpha who’s cheating on *her* with someone else, thus prompting her to “cheat”.

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  6. STOP CALLING PROMISCUOUS WOMEN WHORES AND SHAMING THEM!

    oh, i’m a big fan of sluts. they make my job easier. but promiscuous women who cheat on their husbands/BFs and have kids with alpha interlopers should be shamed. those are not the kind of women i want in my life.

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  7. You have interesting things to say about male/female dynamics. End of story. You come off like an idiot when you try to segue into politics/finance/geopolitics. Like when you said your experience with Russian women makes you an expert on Russian/Georgian relations. Remember this gem:

    “Arise, you branded by envy,
    You whole world of the entitled and resentful!
    Our quisling SWPLs boil,
    Ready to lead us into a fight to your death.
    We will destroy this anglo-saxon world
    Down to the foundations, and then
    We will build our new world – Zion!
    He who was nothing will become everything!

    CHORUS:
    This will be the final
    and decisive battle.
    With the Internationale
    the brother will arise.”

    If you hang out with Roosh and VK, you aren’t smart. Water finds its own level. Your IQ is in the low 100s. VK isn’t even in triple digits.

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  8. How do you know the husband wasn’t an “alpha” who was distant from his wife emotionally and cheating on her constantly, and she responded by having her own affair with a lonely “beta” at work who provided her with a shoulder to cry on?

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  9. I have a lot of empathy for her husband. He has to withstand the voyeuristic glare of UK tabloids because his wife couldn’t control her urges. Cheating is never right, esp when you do it without using protection. What if she had passed a disease on to her husband??? What excuse would she use for giving her husband a death sentence or at the very least making him something of a social pariah in the dating world???

    Again, cheating is never right but some people should never do it. Those who are easily “sprung” from good loving should make use of their hands.

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  10. The first thing that told me the left was the cuckold was that he’s lighter and the other dude is darker. Darker pigmentation in animals means higher sexual aggressiveness. And on the woman’s side, if she’s going to risk shaming or being murdered by her husband, it had better be for someone unusual, not someone who looks just like her current partner.

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  11. BTW, There are women who can maintian two relationships at the same time. Claire Jones is an example of a woman who can’t compartmentalize .

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  12. Agnostic saidThe first thing that told me the left was the cuckold was that he’s lighter and the other dude is darker. Darker pigmentation in animals means higher sexual aggressiveness

    SMDH
    Had to be you

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  13. Ayn Rand: Using a cult-leading writer’s name does not enhance your credibility.

    As for those branded by envy: That really does describe a very large part of the political Left. Surely Ayn Rand understood that. But whatever point you are trying to make by quoting from that previous Roissy post is not clear.

    Roissy’s foray into politics: The way he looks at human nature helps him to understand politics a lot more clearly than you’ll hear described in the mainstream left-leaning media. They don’t want to say they are motivated by status-seeking and envy. We need politically incorrect commentary on politics. The mainstream attempts to frame the debate in ways that keep certain truths out of the discussion.

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  14. on November 28, 2008 at 5:46 pm ironrailsironweights

    Does anyone have a 7-8 pound BM?

    As a matter of fact, after I went to last week’s chili festival …

    Peter

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  15. MQ
    How do you know the husband wasn’t an “alpha” who was distant from his wife emotionally and cheating on her constantly, and she responded by having her own affair with a lonely “beta” at work who provided her with a shoulder to cry on?

    This is a senerio I’ve come across when the wife leaves her husband for her new lover.

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  16. I’ve got to say Chic Noir, your comments are as bad as your spelling. Now stop eating, you probably look like 400 lbs of bear liver.

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  17. “. but promiscuous women who cheat on their husbands/BFs and have kids with alpha interlopers should be shamed. those are not the kind of women i want in my life.”

    OK, I’m with you on that. But let’s not jump on the women who enjoy putting out! Lesson here is don’t measure some nutty chick who thinks it would be a good idea to a) carry a her lover’s baby to term and b) flush it down the toilet. The chick is obviously mental.

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  18. measure = “marry”. Woops!

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  19. F&B saidI’ve got to say Chic Noir, your comments are as bad as your spelling. Now stop eating, you probably look like 400 lbs of bear liver

    Thanks
    FYI I’ve used my pic as my gravie. I’m far from 400 ibs. I’m 5’9.5 and a size 6-8.

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  20. Well, it’s obvious that with a name like Jones one of them is a Welshman. That makes it likely that the guy on the left is the cuckolded husband, because the guy on the right is clearly not Welsh, nor is he of the African American variety of non-Welsh Joneses who took the name from Welsh owners prior to the Civil War.

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  21. The guy on the left is not me, the little letters in the picture notwithstanding.

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  22. I mean right.

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  23. Althugh, oddly, the guy on the right does have facial features that resemble mine, esp. the cheecks and mouth area. Similar shape of the face and head too. Maybe the little letters are there for a reason.

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  24. PA
    The guy on the left is not me, the little letters in the picture notwithstanding

    PA, I thought Roissy was shiting you.
    😆

    Welmer, the blk guy may be a biracial blk or Jamaican , so he could very well be a Welsh Joneses.

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  25. roissy, here’s some kindling to throw on the fire:

    http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20081126/NEWS/81126006

    Short version: A woman (married, mom of 3) had sex with a man (not her husband) in a bathroom stall at a college football game…with a man she’d never met…while her husband was sitting in seat watching the game.

    Enjoy.

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  26. A woman (married, mom of 3) had sex with a man (not her husband) in a bathroom stall at a college football game…with a man she’d never met…while her husband was sitting in seat watching the game

    *DEAD FAINT*

    Can you imagine what may have happened if her husband walked in on her and the other guy. How could she be so disrespectful to her husband???
    SMH

    Sometimes I think much of what I see on the Jerry Springer show and Maury is staged, with the help of z list actors. Then we come across new items like the above and I realize some people are living their own version of JS/Maury show drama.

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  27. Guys are so dumb, including you, roissy. STOP CALLING PROMISCUOUS WOMEN WHORES AND SHAMING THEM! This NOT what you want as a guy. You WANT promiscuity in women. Jesus people. Also, it makes you look weak yourself actually.

    Oh yeah. We also want fat American girls. Especially the really feminist ones. And they have to be 45 or older, because otherwise they’re boring conversationalists.

    And virgins are terrible lays.

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  28. Chic,
    Talk shows and the internet have shown us exactly how crazy people can be. Maury and Springer should pay for their guests to be committed after their appearances.

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  29. on November 28, 2008 at 7:59 pm ironrailsironweights

    That makes it likely that the guy on the left is the cuckolded husband, because the guy on the right is clearly not Welsh, nor is he of the African American variety of non-Welsh Joneses who took the name from Welsh owners prior to the Civil War.

    According to the article the guy on the right – who is the Alpha interloper – is named Marcus Bezerra. Going by his surname he’s probably Brazilian.

    Peter

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  30. Guy on let – alpha – curly hair and widow’s peak indicative of higher testosterone levels; correlates with ziggy-ziggy pattern on tie, shown in multiple studies to cause spontaneous hypno-gasm in susceptible women.

    Guy on right – 1000 yard beta stare as he contemplates wife’s infidelity; movie-screen-like forehead ready to accept implant of a shiny new set of horns.

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  31. Also, before modern medicine and the welfare state most of these people probably died before they had time to stir up much trouble.

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  32. curly hair indicates high testosterone?

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  33. This raises a larger question. While the actions of both the Des Moines and UK women may be deplorable, and the “beta-tude” of the husbands hold them up to ridicule, that is a matter for the law and for the men themselves.

    Obviously, both marriages are DOA, and the married mother of three who has already been fired is facing a divorce with the guy eventually demanding paternity testing and doing whatever he can to fight any payments for kids probably not his.

    Both men are of course “unguided missiles” who will predictably make women’s lives miserable as they inevitably enact petty revenge.

    But that’s the individual trivia. What happens when conduct like the above forms a significant aspect of women’s behavior? That “enough” women are shown doing that sort of thing that men recall it as characterizing “enough” women?

    IMHO, a shift. Women will NOT be able to find husbands. Merely sperm donors, who will pump and dump, and not care one whit about kids who may or may not be theirs, and women who will be considered a “risk” for cheating. Particularly women in their thirties, who will be left holding the bag. With the sort of male attitude towards women that you find in West Africa. [It’s not a good one.]

    Every sword cuts two ways, and I don’t think shaming will come back, too much female power and expectation for them having their own way on this, which in fact they will. But that’s just likely to produce generations of men from now on who will NOT marry women, or commit (men won’t if they think the woman could or possibly would cheat). Instead contempt expressed by treating women like disposable objects, and male separateness already forming. “Bromances” really trouble me, it’s as bad as the female pack you see in urban settings. Classic substitution, ala “bros before hos” and a sign of sexual segregation.

    Absolute sexual freedom for women = total social separation by men and unchecked male behavior. We are looking at men behaving like NBA players, basically.

    Nothing comes for free.

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  34. Whiskey,
    If there’s any truth in what you’re saying, women will simply de-sexualize their looks and their behavior to attract husbands. Women already do that, since men like sluttiness in their flings, not their LTRs. But I can imagine that women might stop frequenting bars and clubs and basically do things that our grandmothers did to protect their reputations.

    Some girls only party to meet guys and if they believe it will ultimately be counterproductive many will stop and find other things to do with their time. Some of course will continue to do the things that the guys here foam at the mouth about after they’ve banged said girls. And yes, the Jessica Cutlers of the world will marry at low rates. So we may naturally go back to the bad old days and the double standard. But this is just one prediction.

    And whiskey, very few men can get chicks like NBA players.

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  35. women will simply de-sexualize their looks and their behavior to attract husbands

    Most women are already too de-sexual, IMHO, why should we make the problem worse? Hell, I’d rather look at a bunch of sexualized women than have a world of desexualized women who only chase beta providers to look for a husband.

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  36. on November 28, 2008 at 10:19 pm jonathanjones02

    “I’m glad the baby died.”

    Roissy, I respect your writing ability and knowledge, but this is soul-killing – it’s an attitude of emptiness and joylessness. A society of this sort of sentiment would be unbearable.

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  37. Overheard in the gym locker room this morning:

    Two guys around 40, maybe 45, toweling off after a shower, talking. One a possible alpha, other probably a classic beta. (I looked as little as possible at them, as they were undressed; just going by their voices)

    The beta says something about his wife expecting. In response to the other guy’s follow-up questions, he says that she’s 41, and it’s her first child. He then helpfully adds that she’s gotten the baby checked out, amniocentisis, blah blah blah.

    41.

    As Billy Joel sang, “what went wrong.”

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  38. “‘She told me about the wheat intolerance and I believed her completely and totally, I had no reason to doubt her. ”

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1088984/I-hid-lovers-dead-baby-boot-car-stop-boyfriend-finding-secret-affair.html

    Hahahahaha. WTF, look at the fucking picture after reading that!

    Reminds me of this:

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  39. “I’m glad the baby died.”

    There is a reason adulterers were once stoned.

    If not for the whore’s shagging around, there would not have been an innocent baby killed, and there would not have been normal men reading the news with a feeling of relief that at least the two pieces of shit aren’t rewarded with a child.

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  40. And on the woman’s side, if she’s going to risk shaming or being murdered by her husband, it had better be for someone unusual, not someone who looks just like her current partner.

    The opposite tack might seem more prudent — if a married woman gets pregnant by an exotic male, the husband will tell right away. But if her paramour is similar-looking (but more handsome, or alpha or whatever) then the hubby will be less likely to catch on.

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  41. “There is a reason adulterers were once stoned.”

    PA, most cases of infanticide have nothing to do with cheating. This woman (see below) put three babies into her freezer and there’s no evidence she had affairs.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/06/germany.internationalcrime

    Here’s another one.

    http://www.thelocal.de/national/20081020-15005.html

    Here’s one from Maryland.

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1873751/posts

    I assume your referring to yourself, not Roissy as a normal man.

    “But if her paramour is similar-looking (but more handsome, or alpha or whatever) then the hubby will be less likely to catch on.”

    That’s what I thought too. Claire Jones was clearly stringing both of these guys along.

    Finally as a conservative I protest the use of the term adultery to describe non-marital infidelity. The man Claire Jones cheated on is described in the article as her partner not her husband. I’m not defending her or excusing her cheating but what she did was not adultery.

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  42. on November 28, 2008 at 11:43 pm ironrailsironweights

    Overheard in the gym locker room this morning:
    Two guys around 40, maybe 45, toweling off after a shower, talking. One a possible alpha, other probably a classic beta. (I looked as little as possible at them, as they were undressed; just going by their voices).
    The beta says something about his wife expecting. In response to the other guy’s follow-up questions, he says that she’s 41, and it’s her first child. He then helpfully adds that she’s gotten the baby checked out, amniocentisis, blah blah blah.

    Probably a second marriage for both the Beta and his wife.

    By the way, it’s very odd that men of that age would be standing around starkers in a gym locker room. Usually it’s men over 65 or 70 who enjoy doing that, lounging around naked with their scrota hanging halfway to their knees.

    Peter

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  43. Ugh, thanks for that image Iron.

    Hello, well IMHO what tends to happen is a significant enough minority of any group with a behavior that is a risk colors reactions. People stereotype and use them because they are useful in every day life when making decisions.

    Already, marriage is seen as a negative by most men by the risk of divorce, kids only on the weekend being raised to hate you. If there is a significant enough perceived risk of cheating, that will effectively kill of marriage which is on life support anyway.

    It’s true most men can’t get women like NBA players, but the attitude towards women by the players (disposable) is what I was getting at. I think if enough women are seen as the Des Moines type (age 38, mother of three, having sex with a 26 year old dude in a men’s room with cheering onlookers with husband and kids at the game, very consensual according to reports), say 33% perceived (regardless of actual numbers), men will choose not to get married, simply have as much sex as possible with as many women (spread your seed strategy). Once that becomes dominant and it can spread rapidly, there is no way to turn it back.

    That’s the tyranny of the minority.

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  44. Yeah, the guy on the left is definitely the beta who hasn’t learned game. If he’d learned game, he’d be an alpha with stronger facial features and a better hairline.

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  45. They are both betas. Read the earlier story. It has more details. This woman is a nutcake and both men have to be losers to date her.

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  46. marriage is seen as a negative by most men by the risk of divorce

    Even with a loyal wife, I don’t see the advantage to marrying one of Whiskey’s sexless wonders who only marries because she needs a beta provider to prevent her from starving and becoming a pauper or spinster. Porn and female friends may not be the best situation, but it provides for a relatively easy and comfortable lifestyle with none of the responsibilities of a boyfriend or husband.

    If anything, Roissy’s pumping and dumping ensures a steady supply of alpha chasing women ensures a steady supply of women looking for a beta male to befriend her and pump up her ego in the process…

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  47. Whiskey, all that you say holds true in a vacuum but you seem to forget male boys are being pumped out of feminazi schools dominated by the social agenda and women. These poor unsuspecting little turds are being primed for lifelong servitude.
    Just look at the military, veterans are almost exclusively anti-war but the establishment (through video games, movies etc.) continues to pump out cannon fodder.

    Once bitten twice shy, but there’s always going to be a greenhorn lining up to be bitten.

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  48. Niko, that’s not true. In fact, re-enlistment rates under GWB and the bulk of the fighting were HIGH. Veterans are almost exclusively PRO-WAR on Terror (or let’s be accurate, Jihad).

    In fact, movies and games and such consistently portray military life negatively, from Three Kings to Lions for Lambs to Redacted to the Kingdom to Stop-Loss and so on.

    Military recruits, who are volunteers, come from almost exclusively the South, the Mountain West, Midwest, and pockets of the Pacific and East Coast. They are overwhelmingly White, particularly in the Combat Infrantry, with a smattering of Hispanic. Reading the casualty lists, there are almost no Blacks, who are mostly in support units or the Navy. The Marines, which sees the most combat of any arm of the service, has the highest retention and recruiting levels.

    Some men LIKE the prospect of combat, as long as they have a realistic chance of winning. Competition for the Special Forces is fierce and the training process brutal. That is not to say that vets don’t have many complaints about aspects of military life, rules, regs, incompetence, and so on. But the services voted overwhelmingly for John McCain.

    Moreover, as boys mature to men and see the gap, i.e. women want “friends” to be nice guys and sleep with bad boy dangerous Alpha jerks, the anger at being sold a raw deal gets high (this IMHO accounts for women’s accurate description of dating hell in their thirties). They either become as much of a jerk as possible, for both anger reasons and thinking it will be successful, or they withdraw into substitution (pr0n, etc) with no connection or involvement in women’s lives.

    They certainly won’t get married, or support women’s issues. Why would they?

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  49. Reading stories like this just makes me sick for a few reasons. If one finds one’s self pregnant and not wanting to be, getting an abortion is a far lesser evil, in my opinion, than infanticide.

    Second, I agree and disagree with Roissy on the rape thing. I believe that to use a man’s genetic material without his explicit consent, or to fool a man into raising a child that isn’t his biological offspring without his knowledge is *worse* than rape.

    It’s the equivalent of drugged rape and slavery.

    This is, by the way, why I don’t find Patrick’s anger response, mentioned in another thread, particularly irrational…and why I myself believe that in cases of misuse or the attempted misuse of a person warrants punishment in proportion to the crime.

    Just because a crime is common, doesn’t make it any less a crime. Sexual abuse of children is relatively common.

    To drug a person is to alter their awareness through chemicals. To deceive a person is to alter their awareness through feeding them illusions. There really isn’t much difference between the person who slips someone a mickey in a club, and the person who lies to another to influence them to do something that they wouldn’t do if they were fully informed.

    What makes the liar worse is that the victim of a drugged rape can recover partly from understanding fully that they had no control of what was happening to them. Victims of liars are usually convinced that they did have some control of what was happening to them, and should have somehow magically discovered what was really going on.

    …but this is a pretty good cautionary story of the dangers of bad selection. Personality counts for alot when you understand that there are much worse things a woman can do to you than reject you.

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  50. I’m glad the baby died. Both the whore and her lover have been denied a genetic legacy, and the beta husband has avoided a fate that is the equivalent of female rape — unknowingly raising another man’s child.

    Sheer poetry!

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  51. Looks like she wasn’t married, but she was fooling a bunch of people anyway.

    I found this article:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1088984/I-hid-lovers-dead-baby-boot-car-stop-boyfriend-finding-secret-affair.html

    She says she “could see a foot” in the toilet. Give me a f—ing break. I’ve seen a couple births, and there’s a lot more than just a baby that comes out. Try umbilical cord, placenta, amniotic fluid, blood, etc. It’s a damned mess and smells like… well… you notice it.

    It is absolutely unbelievable that this woman is getting off so easy. Her lies are so transparent that she should get manslaughter charges at the very least.

    Is Western society ever going to hold women responsible when they do such heinous things?

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  52. Mu’Min Protocol Number One: NEVER rub another Man’s Ruhbarb.

    From Day One, I have never, ever, gotten involved w/a woman who was with another man, be she married or even dating. I find it to be a dishonorable act, and grossly disrespectful to the other man, who by no fault of his own, is subject to such Treachery.

    I am in full and complete, 100% agreement with Roissy’s view that such women be treated with extreme prejudice when found out and proven beyond a shadow of doubt to have commited such acts of Treason. No man should even look on her, let alone touch her, ever again in this world or the next.

    Someone attempted to upbraid Roissy on his own sexual habits, and here I again I agree with Roissy’s response: an important distinction is to be made.

    Like Roissy, I too have absoulutely no problem with a Single Female who chooses to Fuck & Suck at will; the men who get themselves involved w/such an association know from the get go what they’re getting themselves into, and he’s cool with that, then so am I. Let me also say that I have no problem with Open Marriages and the like, though I would never participate in such activities myself; my only concern is that ALL parties know upfront, what the deal is.

    But in cases like that which is the topic of this discussion, I consider them to be case of Treason, and Traitors are Summarily Executed. A Woman has given a Solemn Oath before God & fellow Countrymen to her Lord and has defiled said Oath. A Good & Virtuous Woman would have the decency to end her Marriage before taking up with another Man; instead, we get Females like this.

    And, I have little respect for the “Alpha”, who does indeed look at least partially Black, either. As T pointed out on his blog The Rawness in his review of Iceberg Slim’s “Pimp: The Story of My Life”, Me have lost the very important function of discussing these matters among themselves and the necessary respect and honor that comes with it. No Man should EVER mess around with another Man’s woman. Ever. And T’s absoulutely right, and this dovetails back to Roissy’s excellent point, one major reason why so many Women can get away with actions like this is because of the bitchass behavior of Men on this score. She can jump around from Man to Man w/little if any social censure or rebuke, to say nothing in the way of consequences of any of the Men in question. This needs to stop, immediately.

    For Lady Hello…

    Please do not get it twisted, there are quite a few Men who make it their business to watch and observe the actions of Women closer than a Hawk sitting on tree limb at Fairmount Park on a cold Wintery day.

    From the Archives…

    Of all the Women Mu has had and dealt with over the years, two in particular were caught red handed in the act of Treachery. I will speak of one of them.

    I had suspected her of potentially stepping out, but Mu never makes accusations of that sort unless he can back it up with incontrovertible proof of the act(s). So I decided to conduct my own investigation.

    A month later, I decided to leave the shop early one day and headed home. I gathered all of my evidence, put it on the coffee table, and sat down in my leather recliner chair, waiting for “T” to come home. In the dark.

    She nearly had a heart attack when she turned on the light and saw me sitting in the middle of the room. I warmly greeted her, and asked her to sitdown; I missed her.

    I then picked up the folder of evidence, extracted 4 or 5 sheets of printed text and asked her if the name “So And So” meant anything to her. She stuttered a bit, in that low, mousey kind of voice so many of you Women do when you know you done got caught cold busted. I asked her to speak up!

    I read aloud one email exchange. Then another. And another. I put the papers down. Shrugged my shoulders. And looked at her asif to say, don’t you have anything to say for yourself? She blinked a lot.

    A minute or two passed in silence. I looked up at the clock, and announced that it was the top of the hour. She had 5 minutes to get out of my sight, or the police will be picking up a cold body and making an arrest.

    She tried to get her things out of the bedroom but the door as locked. I fixed that. Surely, she couldn’t expect to profit in any way from her moves, right? I told her she as lucky to be leaving with the clothes on her back. I had seriously considered stripping completely nude and then kicking her the fuck out of my house.

    She left in silence.

    The next day, Mu made a charitable donation of a closet full of women’s items.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  53. “The next day, Mu made a charitable donation of a closet full of women’s items.”

    I know I’m not your type, but I hope you don’t mind if I love you from afar.

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  54. The man Claire Jones cheated on is described in the article as her partner not her husband.

    Oh, I didn’t catch that. I thought he was her husband. Oh yeah, it’s the UK, the vanguard of Western degeneration. Again, Billy Joel asks plaintively “what went wrong?”

    it’s very odd that men of that age would be standing around starkers in a gym locker room. Usually it’s men over 65 or 70 who enjoy doing that,

    I noticed the same thing. Guys under 40 (myself included) shower and change discreetly, while the old farts prance around, talk, bend over, comb their hair, etc nekkid.

    My favorite – one such old guy, about 60, plops himself in the sauna, spread-eagle, starkers, lost in his iPod music. I made a disgusted face and — couldn’t resist it — asked my friend who was there with me “is this a yuppie gym or a a San Francisco bath house?” He probably heard me over the iPod and thankfully put a towel over his sausage.

    Maybe its a generational difference. I noted a similar thing in France ten years ago: the teens were always in a two-piece bathing suit. Women in their twenties: about 25% were topless. Thirties: about half. 40s-50s: the majority. And 100% of women over 60 were sunning those funbags.

    Like


  55. PA,
    I find public nudity, of whatever age, to be utter disgusting. Yuck! Mu is always properly clothed when exiting the house-long sleeved shirts and long pants-and does not frequent places such as gyms, saunas and the like. He prefers to have such facilities on the premises.

    Recently, while making a purchase of a pair of shoes in the Gallery, one of the store personnel, a young woman, was squatting arranging the stock off to my left as I waited in line at the register. She wore those lowrider dress slacks, and there was the crack of her ass on display before the Western World.

    I didn’t hesitate to make my displeasure at such a visage known to the store management, and I must say with all due respect to the Ladies of the Forum that I find their Sisters who do such things to be beyond disgusting, it is NOT sexually alluring or appealing in any way, shape form or fashion, and I should hope that some of you pull your sisters to the side and instruct them in the proper manner of dress in public and at the workplace.

    Yuck.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  56. PA,
    “I noted a similar thing in France ten years ago: the teens were always in a two-piece bathing suit. Women in their twenties: about 25% were topless. Thirties: about half. 40s-50s: the majority. And 100% of women over 60 were sunning those funbags.”

    I once read an anecdote about an American going to the gynecologist in France. In America, the nurse show’s you to the exam room and leaves you alone so you can undress and get into the examination gown after which you wait for the doctor. In France, however, a woman is expected to undress in front of the doctor. This American woman was shocked and embarrassed, but I thought it made sense. In America waiting for the doctor after you undress and put on the gown prolongs your visit, and I like my OBGYN visits to be as brief as possible. While I am very modest about topless sunbathing and showing underwear and bra straps I see no reason to be squeamish about being naked in a locker room with other women or with a gynecologist whom I pay to look at me. It’s one thing to be modest and quite another to be ashamed of your body.

    I think younger women are probably used to comparing their bodies to women in the media, whereas older women grew up seeing far fewer images of perfect nude bodies on TV and in movies. Internet porn (sorry DA) doesn’t help matters.

    Mu,
    “Lady Hello”, I like it. I have always imagined that if my husband cheated on me I’d change the locks when he was at work and change all my phone numbers. Then I’d send him an email telling him that I knew and not to bother coming home. I’d leave a few changes of clothing on the lawn, but he’d forfeit all electronics.

    Nic,
    You’re right about the drugged rape. Only a drugged rape doesn’t last for a lifetime.

    Like


  57. — I think younger women are probably used to comparing their bodies to women in the media

    I suspect that the reason that younger women are more modest on the beaches is that they know that they will be ogled by virtually everyone, whole the older women feel that they will be safely ignored.

    — I see no reason to be squeamish about being naked […] with a gynecologist whom I pay to look at me.

    In the PA household, there is no such thing as a male ObGyn.

    — It’s one thing to be modest and quite another to be ashamed of your body.

    I agree. While I agree with Mu’s point that immodesty is unbecoming in public, there is a time and place to be nekkid. The gym locker room, for example, provided you spare others the discomfort of having to see sausages more than is necessary.

    Group showers were unavoidable when I was in the Army as well. But the implicit rules were simple: a) don’t flap around with it; and b) don’t stare.

    Also, some adult couples like to be in a hot tub nude with other couples (not my thing). I did, however, skinny dip with male+female friends a few times in my early 20s. It was fun!

    Like


  58. — I think younger women are probably used to comparing their bodies to women in the media

    One other thing… I think it’s the opposite. While women of all ages are shown in the media with great bodies, this is less “unrealistic” for younger women, as most will be naturally shapely, provided they aren’t fat.

    It’s the older women who have “unrealistic” Diane Lane or Susan Sarandon to compare themselves to.

    Like


  59. “Also, some adult couples like to be in a hot tub nude with other couples (not my thing). ”

    Yuck.

    “It’s the older women who have “unrealistic” Diane Lane or Susan Sarandon to compare themselves to.”

    A lot of older women reach a point where they accept themselves the way they are and just don’t care. Kudos to them!

    Like


  60. what is even worse is that, there is a natural bias towards being impregnated by your lover over your cuckolded husband… so even with 2x more copulations with the husband.. the lover still has an edge at impregnation… poor kid though…. thats too bad..

    excerpt from The Red Queen (about Baker and Bellis)
    “These two effects combined meant meant that an unfaithful woman in their sample could have sex twice as often with her husband as with her lover but was still slightly more likely to conceive a child by the lover than the husband”

    Like


  61. 1.) Where did the first few commenters get the idea that this woman didn’t know she was pregnant? She must have known, or her lover would not have been buying presents for the child. All she said was that she didn’t know she was delivering a baby – which is probably a lie to cover up responsibility for the baby’s death. What I don’t understand is why it was necessary for her to allow the baby to die. She had already told her lover and he appeared to be supportive.

    2.) Whiskey – you speak of men rejecting women and creating a sexually “separatist” society if they begin to suspect that women are all cheats and tramps. Undoubtedly true and the signs of it are everywhere around us. But West Africa is not the only model of what happens in sexually segregated societies. There are some sexually separatist communities (Saudi Arabia, anyone?) in which women have virtually no freedom of movement and in which adultery is punishable by death for both parties – i.e. a cheating wife and her lover, NOT a cheating husband and his gf. Yet none of this appears to reassure men that women are unlikely to cheat.

    Clio

    Like


  62. One the occasions where I have been examined for my annual physical, a male doctor is appropriate insofar as non-Gunnery things are concerned; when the Gun inspection is called for, he must exit the room and the Nurse come in instead. Mu will not allow any male to inspect the weaponry. Or haggard, ugly Nurses. Period.

    Diane Lane is an acceptable female, Susan Sarandon is not, she is too old.

    Previous comments regard public hot tubs and the like have already been discussed. Besides, the excessive heat from such facilities poses a threat in the reduction of Nut Busting Power.

    Ladies Nicole and Hello: You’re most welcome.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  63. Clio,
    Actually I am quite fond of the notion of Gender Segregated Areas in the Public Square, but not done by coercion or sanction but by mutual consent.

    For example, in the Black community, the Barbershop is something of a cultural fixture and a place where Black Men gather and discuss all manner of things that might not otherwise be said in the presence of the Ladies. Likewise, the same can be said in reverse for the Beautyshop, where the Sistas gather. I think these kind of venues provide valuable function in civilized Society, and this notion of a “Unisex World/Culture” is quite frankly, repulsive to me. The are necessary spheres of Life wherein which the Men and Women should be unto themselves.

    On the Question of Cuckoldry: I am in agreement w/Roissy and others, Mandatory Paternity Testing should be done immediately upon birth of the child to ascertain without a shadow of a doubt that the Putative Dad is indeed the Dad, or NOT. In the event Putative Dad is not Dad, he shall retain the right to divorce the Whore-Wife, recoup all expenditures during the pregnancy, and is able to press charges in Civil Court for further damages. Mu is also open to the idea of pursuing what avenues can be taken to divest the Whore-Mom of her child since such actions as she has taken demonstrate questionable abilities to provide proper mothering to the innocent child. In any event, Mu agrees w/David Alexander that the Duped Dad should be able to assert his Custody Rights should he wish to continue on supporting the child, this is his Choice, and again Mu is in agreement with those who have made the case, very convincingly Mu might add, that Paternity Fraud and Abortion Rights are not that far apart from one another.

    On this one issue, perhaps, I am to the Right of Roissy; he says such Females should be Shunned; Mu says they should be Summarily Executed. If the Worth of aRace must be measured by the Character of its Woman, such a Female has commited a Treasonous Act and should be punished accordingly.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  64. jonathanjones02

    “I’m glad the baby died.”

    Roissy, I respect your writing ability and knowledge, but this is soul-killing – it’s an attitude of emptiness and joylessness. A society of this sort of sentiment would be unbearable.

    He comes up with this drivel in his sleep.

    Like


  65. All she said was that she didn’t know she was delivering a baby – which is probably a lie to cover up responsibility for the baby’s death.

    While I was dismayed at first that she escaped a prison sentence, on second thought the fact that she’ll have to live with the guilt and shame for the rest of her life should be sufficient punishment.

    Peter

    Like


  66. on November 29, 2008 at 1:06 pm Carlos From Anaheim

    someone was asking for a picture of the des moines woman who was caught having sex in the bathroom, here’s a link:

    http://eplay.typepad.com/eplay_online_sports_fanta/
    2008/11/lois-feldman-38-arrested-for-sex-in-metrodome-released-to-her-husband-no-pictures-yet.html

    and another one
    http://www.bittenandbound.com/2008/
    11/27/lois-feldman-fired-after-metrodome-sex-arrest-photos/

    both sites claim it’s her.

    Like


  67. they withdraw into substitution (pr0n, etc) with no connection or involvement in women’s lives

    I’m an open porn addict, yet I somehow manage to maintain female friendships.

    They certainly won’t get married, or support women’s issues. Why would they?

    I have a niece, female cousins, female friends. That’s a solid reason to support women’s issues.

    In the PA household, there is no such thing as a male ObGyn.

    In contrast, my mom and other women in her age group from the Caribbean detest female OBGYNs and think they’re all lesbians.

    Like


  68. someone was asking for a picture of the des moines woman who was caught having sex in the bathroom

    She’s too pretty to be stuck with a loser beta husband and kids. She’s a perfect cougar, and she be out using her looks to attract young males.

    Of course, it would be nice if she didn’t blatantly cheat on him…

    Like


  69. “someone was asking for a picture of the des moines woman who was caught having sex in the bathroom, here’s a link:”

    now that is some truly EPIC WHORING

    its funny how being married actually makes this so much more sketchy… and terrible… otherwise you could just chalk it up to being dirrrty.

    Like


  70. This is marginally related to the topic, but man did it blow my mind:

    http://minx.cc/?post=278913

    Like


  71. T.,

    Based on the article presented I think it’s unlikely. In a warrior-based tribal setting these men would have reacted with consternation over a 20 year period where no boys grew into men. If the article presented how the men reacted it would’ve made more sense. I have trouble imagining that for 20 years not one woman looked at her newborn son and decided to keep him. In any case Lysistrata would have been a better bet.

    Like


  72. She’s too pretty to be stuck with a loser beta husband and kids. She’s a perfect cougar, and she be out using her looks to attract young males.

    -DA

    You’re kidding, right? She’s your typical dime-a-dozen bleached blonde suburban housewife. She’s probably got a wide rear and shapeless legs. I see legions of these on the daily commute.

    However, If you look closely, there’s a psychotic desperation in her eyes. Her obligatory fang-bearing American smile only adds to the edginess.

    Like


  73. lol… you know… had they not been caught… she could have gotten preggers… and cuckolded her husband who was probably chomping on a hotdog watching the game…. good for him… in a way…. somehow i doubt that this is the FIRST time this sort of thing has happened…. retroactive paternity tests on his current kids like Whoa!

    Like


  74. hello
    T.,

    Based on the article presented I think it’s unlikely. In a warrior-based tribal setting these men would have reacted with consternation over a 20 year period where no boys grew into men.

    If it’s true, when the current warriors get too old to fight in the next ten years or so, all the women will be whisked away by the men of neighboring tribes. There could be nothing easier than enslaving a tribe devoid of men.

    Like


  75. Speaking of warriors (and alphas!) this was posted on the door of a hospital room in which a severely wounded U.S. Navy SEAL is recovering:

    Attention – to all who enter here:

    If you are coming into this room with sorrow or to feel sorry for my wounds, go elsewhere. The wounds I received, I got in a job I love, doing it for people I love, supporting the freedom of a country I deeply love.

    I am incredibly tough and will make a full recovery. What is full? That is the absolute utmost physically my body has the ability to recover. Then I will push that about 20 percent further through sheer mental tenacity.

    This room you are about to enter is a room of fun, optimism, and intense rapid regrowth. If you are not prepared for that, go elsewhere.

    Like


  76. Clio — I don’t think men will “reject” women as simply abandon the monogamous marriage that underlies Western society.

    As Mu’Min points out, the fundamental issue for any society is moderating and controlling male rivalry over women. The West was built on the assumption that most men would be assured of both a free and relatively fair chance of wooing a woman who would love him and only him, and having exclusive sexual access to her. Making power/status not quite as dominant in more tribal societies, along with independent and strong women. Western men LOVE strong women, any actress who plays one gets lots and lots of male fans. What is sad is that the dynamics have changed so the more independent and strong women are, the more they want the few men who are more socially dominant. Upending the “romantic love” model that put most men on a somewhat even playing field in competing over women. The bankruptcy of the Saudi-type models that hoard women into harems is of course self-evident. But it’s always an option for a society to tip there.

    The West has been built on sexual integration through the institution of monogamous marriage and nuclear family, it’s women’s folly that having a whole bunch of “beta males” permanently unattached will result in guys like DA instead of say, a bunch of angry nerds who feel no connection or responsibility towards women who will be left on their own.

    DA — you are a sample size of one. Declining birth rates means that we will see more only children. Males with the attitudes towards women seen in Rap Videos. Male investment in women and children requires monogamous marriage, otherwise it defaults to West African or Arabian models.

    The net for the Des Moines woman is that her marriage is over, though hubby may stay around for a while. She will be divorced, likely DNA tests providing one kid not Hubby’s with the natural result of child support being dragged out and income hidden as much as possible. Given that the woman hooked up with a guy 12 years her junior with her kids and husband close-by, it’s quite likely her relationship with the kids will collapse and the kids will all be failures at having relationships.

    Like


  77. Welmer, that’s not a very safe thing to assume.

    In Papua New Guinea the cultures that are still that far out are extremely misogynist, but this is the way it has always been there. What’s happening now is the result of western influence that convinces women that since men are usually the ones tapped to be warriors, that war is men’s fault.

    There are also many cultures there wherein young males are expected to graduate from the teat to the meat. Young males perform oral sex on their older mentors once they are initiated at the age of 8-12, depending on the tribe. It’s considered as natural as breast feeding.

    So if you teach such people that what they’re doing is pedophilia, and that men are all jerks, then they will kill their babies rather than subject them to a certain future of having to suck cock until they’re old enough to get their cocks sucked by the next generation. The problem is that the people who taught them these kinds of activities were harmful, didn’t back that up with support for the transition.

    I seriously doubt that in such extremely patriarchal cultures, the women are acting on their own. It is more likely that the fathers are supporting or somehow encouraging this.

    Like


  78. Group showers were unavoidable when I was in the Army as well. But the implicit rules were simple: a) don’t flap around with it; and b) don’t stare.

    Those are sensible rules. But if nudity in company is really unconfortable for someone, they should stay away from Finnish saunas. In Finland, most families have a private sauna at home. The custom is that the sexes take turns going to the sauna. The only exceptions are children who can go with a parent of the opposite sex.

    It is common among students for guys and gals to go to saunas together, believe it or not. The tacit rules are exactly the same as those quoted above: a) don’t go out of your way to show your stuff, and b) don’t stare. Among all Finns, this works fine because everyone is accustomed to the idea of being naked in a sauna in the company of a member of the opposite sex who is not sex partner.

    Some foreigners may have trouble in mixed company, however. I’ve never seen such a thing happen myself, but I heard some Italian exhange student couldn’t help but get a full-blown erection after taking a bit too close a look at some co-eds, forgetting where he was.

    Like


  79. on November 29, 2008 at 6:59 pm Comment_PATERNITY

    ****
    lol… you know… had they not been caught… she could have gotten preggers… and cuckolded her husband who was probably chomping on a hotdog watching the game…. good for him… in a way…. somehow i doubt that this is the FIRST time this sort of thing has happened…. retroactive paternity tests on his current kids like Whoa!
    ****
    HA HA!

    You think the fact it isn’t your kid MATTERS!

    In Minnesota the husband is EXPECTED to pay for children that aren’t his.

    https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=257.57&year=2008
    https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=257.55#stat.257.55

    If those kids are older than three years, then the husband is expected to provide for them, father or not.

    Here are two “normal person” web-sites that refuse to openly say the truth. Women, and important people, would be angry. So they keep quite. That’s not lying though, cause they are Good People.

    http://www.cffpp.org/legal/minnesota_en.html

    Here is the State of Minnesota’s website. They choose not to discuss that husbands who prove that the kid isn’t theirs have no rights and must pay.
    http://www.dhs.state.mn.us/main/idcplg?IdcService=GET_DYNAMIC_CONVERSION&RevisionSelectionMethod=LatestReleased&dDocName=dhs16_138749

    Still, reading it, you can see what is actually happening.

    However, both sites are ever so vague and unable to say the unpleasant truth. This is pretty typical of Americans, and liberals, in general. They pretty much lie about everything.

    Like


  80. on November 29, 2008 at 7:04 pm ironrailsironweights

    If you don’t mind the endless commentary, here are some multiple GNP’s. The one in the last picture is especially tasty. Aren’t European beaches cool?

    Peter

    Like


  81. on November 29, 2008 at 7:49 pm ironrailsironweights

    She’s your typical dime-a-dozen bleached blonde suburban housewife. She’s probably got a wide rear and shapeless legs. I see legions of these on the daily commute.

    Same here, I see plenty of them on the train each day. One thing though, this woman technically wasn’t a housewife, because she had a job. Same with the women on the train.

    Peter

    Like


  82. Markku – funny you should mention Finnish saunas. I visited Helsinki for a few days in 2001 and had heard something about the causal coed nudity in the saunas. I was traveling alone, the hotel I was staying in had a sauna, and I went in there, kind of curious if some Sandi babes were just gonna lounge around in there barenekkid, like in some softcore movie. Heh.

    But no one was there, as it was around 1:00 at night, weeknight. I couldn’t sleep, but lucky for me the hotel restaurant was open. I went down there, got somethign to eat, drank quite a bit, and chain smoked (I quit several years ago).

    Anyway, some guy, about 45 years old, just comes and joins me at my table. I thought he might be gay and have the wrong idea about me (I was about 30 at the time, and I’m considered good looking.) But at closer look, he didn’t give off gay vibes. He seemed sober too. He looked clean-cut, basically a normal guy.

    But was talking to me in Swedish, a language I don’t speak one word in. I tried to impress upon him that I can’t understad him. I tried English, German, Spanish, Polish, Russian — all languages I can communicate in. Nothing. He’s still going on in Swedish.

    I tried “parlez vous francais,” nothing. Italiano? nothing. I racked my brain for any foreign words he might understant, but to no avail. Finally, I got irritated, and told him firmly in English that I hav e no fucking idea what he wants from me. And he said something apologetically-sounding in Swedish, and left my table.

    Wierd, huh?

    Like


  83. You’re kidding, right? She’s your typical dime-a-dozen bleached blonde suburban housewife.

    Maybe it’s me, but given her age and the number of children that she’s had, she’s rather good-looking, IMHO, and she’s much better looking than the average housewife that I see at Macy’s or Target.

    this was posted on the door of a hospital room in which a severely wounded U.S. Navy SEAL

    How uplifting. 🙂

    Same with the women on the train.

    LIRR female commuters tend to be better looking than average, IMHO.

    Like


  84. on November 29, 2008 at 8:54 pm ironrailsironweights

    LIRR female commuters tend to be better looking than average, IMHO.

    Agreed. It’s probably because most are quite upscale, which is pretty inevitable given the cost and inconvenience of train commuting – no one’s going to ride into Manhattan every day for a $10/hour job. When some woman sitting next to me is reading a trashy romance novel or some equally trashy celebrity magazine, I have to remind myself that she’s probably earning well into the six figures. Affluent women tend to be above-average in looks. Also, the Asian women who commute on the LIRR, and there are a lot of them, tend to be very cute, I suppose they boost the average for all women.

    Peter

    Like


  85. LIRR female commuters tend to be better looking than average, IMHO.

    I ride the Maryland commuter train to work in DC (MARC). Other than the occasional tourists riding to the airport, I see no good looking women on my train.

    Like


  86. no one’s going to ride into Manhattan every day for a $10/hour job

    I declined to apply for a part-time position in Manhattan primarily because of the high railroad fares. I’d end up paying nearly one-third of my paycheck on getting to work, and I’d still need to have maintain car insurance in order to travel. I know of a few people who were paying LIRR fares to come to my workplace, but eventually they either quit or started using their monthly pass money on car payments and insurance and somehow ended up saving money…

    Admittedly, it kinda fun to just lounge around Penn Station and look at the attractive women waiting for the trains to come in. They’re better looking than their subway-riding counterparts even if one includes the young white hipsters or the prettiest of the lower class women, and as always, it’s a great way to buy some time while waiting for the next train while railfanning.

    I ride the Maryland commuter train to work in DC (MARC)

    Somehow, I feel sorry for you. MARC blows compared to a “real” railroad…

    Like


  87. Just wanted to give Whiskey props, and to extend and revise my remarks.

    It is my understanding that Adultery is a punishable Offence up to and including a full Courts Martial according to the Uniform Military Code of Justice, particularly as it regards Officers as Behavior unbecoming a Military Officer. This has been told to Mu by the preceeding Men in his Bloodline, three generations of Marines, all Ancestors now. This sounds Right & Exact to Mu, and highlights the earlier point made by me and to which Whiskey has referred. A competent and just Society MUST be built around the notion that Men respect and honor each other as Men, and that includes, first and foremost the idea that a Man needn’t fear that other Men will be or attempt to mess around with his Wifey.

    Let me also say that I am in full agreement with Whiskey on the point regarding strong independent Women who can choose which Man she will commit to. Mu has always favored Freedom of Choice for Women, but having so them Chose, she must then stick with the Choice. What we have currently is NOT this, but something else entirely.

    All Choices in Life, Big and Small, Individual of as a Nation, involve Trade-Offs. This is what so many Women have seemed to forgot on the way to growing up. Monogamy in the Western tradition is not perfect, it has never been, it will never be. There are problems inherent in it. But the tradeoffs are worth it given the alternatives, the chief one being the Big Man Syndrome where the majority of serviceable females are horded by whoever is at the top of the head. Such an arrangement is a Society’s Doom. Advancement of ANY kind, comes to an End.

    Let me also add, just for the record, that Polygamy is hardly a uniform thing in the Islamic World. There are Islamic countries that outright forbid it, preferring the Monogamy model in the West, and this is one Muslim who agrees with this idea, and it is spoken of in the Qur’an itself, Surah Two, Al-Baqurah, The Cow.

    Going back to my earlier remarks in aggreement with Whiskey, he’s right, Men will simply Stop. Stop working. Stop being engaged. Stop caring. Already this is happening in arguably thee most productive place on Earth since World War Two, Japan. Women there have been divorcing their Men in droves, they even have a Reality TV Show about it, where they call their ex hubbies “Wet Leaves” because when the Man retires from the job, having worked there 60 hours a week or more for decades, he returns home and is not quite sure what to do, and she considers him a hangers-on. The Japanese Gov’t recently has allowed a divorcing Woman to collect a substantial amount of a Man’s pension in the divorce setttlement, and hence the Run on Divorce there, very similar to what happened here in this country in the 70s and 80s, where a clear majority of those starting divorce proceedings were Women.
    As a result, more and more young Men are seen about Japan’s major cities being louts and slackers, fewer Men willing to take on more responsibility and tasks at work, even with higher pay. They figure, its not worth it, seeing what happens to a Man who gives his heart and soul to his Wife and Family, and his thanks is a set of divorce papers and half or more of his pension gone.

    A Productive Man is a Married or at least Committed Man (LTR), this is a fact. When we as a Society allow what has happened in Japan and here wrt Women, be prepared to see a serious Productivity Downturn amongst the Male Populus. It is inevitable. And costly. In a multitude of ways.

    Transplanting the Chivalry Discussion from a previous thread: it is Mu’s opinion that far more Women want a Return to Chivalry than many would openly admit. They know something is amiss with the Brave New World we inhabit, and realize that it is ultimately a Zero Sum Game. Hence one of my opening questions when meeting a Woman for the first time on a date. As Roissy has rightly pointed out, Chivalry requires Gratitude, and many Women today are truly ungrateful; this makes most thinking and sane Men wholly unwilling to put themselves out for so much as opening a door or allowing a Woman to board the bus or train ahead of himself. Mu has lost count as to the number of Women who don’t even acknowledge the relatively few Men who do this anymore. Its a sad sight to see.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  88. oh snap! Over The Counter Paternity testing action available at a WALMART near you… now you can determine soul reaving despair in a matter of minutes =p

    http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Identigene-Expands-Sales-First-ever/story.aspx?guid=%7B223EF188-D2E3-452E-80D5-1C1763589902%7D

    Like


  89. “A competent and just Society MUST be built around the notion that Men respect and honor each other as Men, and that includes, first and foremost the idea that a Man needn’t fear that other Men will be or attempt to mess around with his Wifey.”

    No argument from me, but this would require punishing married women’s lovers as severely as the adulteresses themselves. I once read that in Vietnam adulterers were buried alive.

    “Mu has always favored Freedom of Choice for Women, but having so them Chose, she must then stick with the Choice. What we have currently is NOT this, but something else entirely.

    Does this require a husband to stick by his wife when she’s over 35?

    “Big Man Syndrome where the majority of serviceable females are horded by whoever is at the top of the head. Such an arrangement is a Society’s Doom. Advancement of ANY kind, comes to an End.”

    Steve Sailer wrote about polygamy in this light about a Kenyan man who had 50 wives. Sailer stated that it was virtually impossible for a man to imagine himself as one of the 49 losers instead of the big winner. The monogamous distribution of women would require to forgo the Big Man aspirations that seem to drive the author and commentators of this blog. Do you think that in a free society this is plausible?

    “Women there (in Japan) have been divorcing their Men in droves, they even have a Reality TV Show about it, where they call their ex hubbies “Wet Leaves” because when the Man retires from the job, having worked there 60 hours a week or more for decades, he returns home and is not quite sure what to do, and she considers him a hangers-on.”

    Divorced older men are the saddest people in the world. I don’t defend their abandoning wives, but what I’ve read about such cases suggests to me that it is an ultimate result of intense workaholism. These men were socialized that their ultimate loyalty wasn’t to their families but their companies. Even if their wives wanted them home more they worked insane hours and although they paid the bills they almost never provided leadership in the home or paternal guidance to the kids.

    So their wives functioned almost as single mothers and created their way of doing things. When their husbands retired their wives found themselves living with strangers who disrupted their routines, demanded obedience and didn’t know what to do with themselves when not working. They had no friends outside of work and at retirement they lose even those connections. Many couples don’t handle it well.

    As you all say, money alone will not win or keep a woman. A wife wants the support and leadership of a husband, not someone who pays the bills and comes home to sleep. I don’t agree with Japanese women who divorce retired husbands, but the husbands have to provide more than money. Some understand this and have formed the sweetly titled “Japan Adoring Husbands Organization”

    http://www.aisaika.org/en/prospectus.html

    “A Productive Man is a Married or at least Committed Man (LTR), this is a fact. When we as a Society allow what has happened in Japan and here wrt Women, be prepared to see a serious Productivity Downturn amongst the Male Populus. It is inevitable. And costly. In a multitude of ways.”

    Women do initiate most divorces, especially low-conflict divorces. That said, men do leave their wives and men are also extremely picky and seeking perfection. For most men marriage will mean “settling” for a women who are at their level of sexual attractiveness i.e. not 10s. I agree that committed marriages are better for individuals and society but they mean sacrificing adventure, if only theoretical adventure, for both sexes. You ask women to do that; are you prepared to do the same? You may say that male flings don’t affect them emotionally and physically as they do a woman but a man would still be screwing a woman who, by your decree, should be another man’s wife.

    Also , drunken, addicted crazy spouses do exist. Would there be wiggle room for people to leave genuinely bad marriages?

    “As Roissy has rightly pointed out, Chivalry requires Gratitude, and many Women today are truly ungrateful; this makes most thinking and sane Men wholly unwilling to put themselves out for so much as opening a door or allowing a Woman to board the bus or train ahead of himself. Mu has lost count as to the number of Women who don’t even acknowledge the relatively few Men who do this anymore. Its a sad sight to see.”

    Mu, from a female perspective I think some women are taken aback by such behavior because they aren’t used to it, though God knows there are definitely rude women on public transport. I always thank men who offer me a seat.

    Would chivalry extend to all (chaste) women as it theoretically should? Will a return of chivalry mean men offering seats on trains to pretty girls who can stand on their quite easily while pregnant women, elderly ladies, and disabled women stand in discomfort? Chivalry wasn’t always romantic but it was an acknowledgment of the reality that women are more vulnerable than men and need protection in society. I also give up my seat to old men or men on crutches as all able-bodied people should.

    Another thing; male dominance in society, an idea which I’m currently toying with, would mean men are truly responsible for their women. The model would be ballroom dancing with the man leading and the woman following but the man leading expertly enough to ensure that the woman enjoys the dance. The majority of men under, say, 40 fall apart when they first try to dance with a partner. Following music, steps and guiding a woman is too much for them and it takes a lot of effort and almost reprogramming to get these guys to dance even somewhat competently. We talk about women giving up control and the freedom to slut around, but I think the real difficulty here is that men who’d be chivalrous are so confused, ignorant, and insecure about what responsible masculinity really is that they just couldn’t socially lead in a way that would inspire the trust and confidence that women would need to really surrender control. Now I think both sexes would be much happier in those circumstances but it’s hard to envision this happening naturally to, say, 50% of the population. Nicole was right when she said it would be a fringe movement.

    Mu, I enjoy your comments very much.

    Like


  90. Marginally related to the main topic, here’s an interesting article for guys who think that a successful career and lots of money will get them a quality girl:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/recession/3527803/Recession-When-the-money-goes-so-does-the-toxic-wife.html

    According to the article, “lawyers and financial advisers have reported a 50 per cent increase in the number of divorce inquiries since the financial markets collapsed in September.”

    It makes me wonder how these British hotshot finance guys can be so wimpy and clueless outside of work. In a single article, we learn about:

    (1) A guy who let his golddigger wife beat him up bloody when she learned that she’d have to cut back on luxury.

    (2) Successful and rich guys who apparently react with fearful, walking-on-eggshells cowering when their good-for-nothing golddigger wives threaten with going ballistic because some obscure whim of theirs hasn’t been satisfied properly.

    (3) A guy who “turned to his wife in the middle of the night and asked her if she’d still love him if he lost all his money”, got the arrogantly honest answer “Fuck no!”, but deluded himself into thinking it was a joke. “She left him the moment he lost his senior post at an investment bank and immediately hooked up with another rich man.”

    (4) Finally, a certain Susie Ambrose “has a waiting-list for her life-coaching sessions – a course costs between £10,000-£60,000 – on how to distinguish a gold-digger from a genuine woman.” I mean, guys, if you’re incapable of distinguishing that, you’re probably such suckers and emotional retards that no course on Earth could possibly help you. In fact, you’re likely just falling for another scam by signing up.

    Like


  91. whiskey:

    The bankruptcy of the Saudi-type models that hoard women into harems is of course self-evident. But it’s always an option for a society to tip there.

    However, you’re failing to distinguish between a violent society where Big Men forcibly confine their women to harems, and a society of complete sexual laissez-faire, where many women would presumably join the harems of a small number of extremely attractive men voluntarily and opt for single motherhood instead of settling for a non-ideal man. The former has been tried many times throughout human history, and I’d agree that it never worked as well as the traditional Western monogamy. The latter, however, would be a completely novel social experiment, which has been tried so far only recently and partially. I’ll agree that the preliminary results aren’t pretty, though.

    The West has been built on sexual integration through the institution of monogamous marriage and nuclear family, it’s women’s folly that having a whole bunch of “beta males” permanently unattached will result in guys like DA instead of say, a bunch of angry nerds who feel no connection or responsibility towards women who will be left on their own.

    So far, the practical results suggest that guys getting out of the mating game are turning into docile, demasculinized creatures like DA, not into angry mobs that threaten social stability. And nobody will ask them whether they want to take responsibility towards women — the state will force them to do so by taking as much of their paychecks as necessary, and most of them will happily oblige anyway, convinced by the education and media that it’s only fair if they do so. The eventual outcome is more likely to resemble a dysfunctional Sweden than an African Big Man society. How far such an arrangement could last without plunging into a demographic catastrophe or social instability, nobody can tell, although I’m not optimistic about its prospects.

    Also, you are ignoring the fact that many guys are refusing to marry not just because decent girls are hard to find — they are, but it’s still not impossible — but because they themselves have unrealistic expectations. Both sexes are culprits in this whole mess.

    Like


  92. Vladimir, one has to ask where they got these unrealistic expectations from though. My generation was largely raised by televisions because both our mothers and fathers worked. Rather than making gender roles flexible, men were expected to do the same job, while women did this too, and nobody was left to raise the kids except daycare.

    When there’s nobody but the idiot box telling you what life is about, then guess what? One grows up to be an idiot about life.

    Like


  93. Hello,
    Thanks for the compliment. I’ll try to ddress some of the things you’ve said.

    As mentioned earlier, there are Tradeoffs to be made in all areas of Life; indeed, part of being an Adult is in recognizing this fact. While it is generally true that Beauty & Sexual Prowess are highly regarded by Men, I think this thread if nothing else, just goes to show how equally prized, if not much moreso, Sexual Fidelity is to Men, too. And here lies one of the Great Tradeoffs all Men must confront when the time comes for them to settle down; is Beauty/Sexual Prowess more important than Sexual Fidelity, or vice versa? Although clearly not a base requirement for a Woman get get a Man/Men, surely being a knockout doesn’t hurt. And I think many here would agree, its a lot easier to get butts in seats if you’re a “10” than a “2”.

    So, being a Ravishing Beauty has its downsides, as all things do in Life, and Men have to confront that should they ever want to settle down. Vladimir spoke to this earlier, so has Whiskey to an extent.

    It has been said that once a certain “floor”-that is to say, a certain base requirement-of Beauty and/or Sexual Prowess has been reached, most Men turn their attention to other aspects of the Prospective Female Candidate. I personally would agree with this view, and personally highly value qualities in a Woman that don’t necessarily have any links at all to Beauty etc., such as, Sexual Fidelity. To me, Loyalty is All. Strong skills of Cookery is a huge plus, as are a love for children and family. These are just my own personal views and dictates and do not in any reflect those of the fellow Gentlemen in the Forum or elsewhere.

    Now, for me, I’d be willing to tradeoff a few points in the Beauty/Sexual Prowess Dept for the aforementioned attributes and qualities; afterall, in our time, only the most ugly of Women are truly beyond Hope insofar as being madeover is concerned. And a Female can be Sexually Trained as well, provided the other things mentioned are there and she is willing to learn. Besides, and I’m quite sure the Fellas would agree with this point, there are many Women who are Da Bomb in the looks dept and a total Dud in the sack. One does not necessarily translate into the other, trust me.

    As for your other comments, I think the landscape that you and other Women are seeing insofar as Men Today are concerned is a telling, and sad, commentary on the state of Fatherhood in our time. We have mocked and devalued it to near-extinction, in any real sense. The things that Roissy and others speak of and write about used to be the kinds of things Fathers passed on to their Sons as they prepared to enter the larger world; now there are grown Men walking around who never have had anything near such talks with their own Progenitors. I think that’s very sad.

    Roissy put up a post, I cannot recall the specific name of it now, where he specifically speaks to the Dancing issue; he says that if you, as a Man, are NOT good at dancing, don’t do it, and to a large extent I would agree. Some of us just aren’t good at that sort of thing, and discretion is the better part of valor, indeed.

    Having said that though, I do think what T recently mentioned about the issue makes some sense; that a Man should at least try to learn some basic Ballroom style dance steps. Enough not to step on her toes at a nice dinner party sort of thing.

    More in a minute…

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  94. Hello,
    In response to more of your questions…

    Mu has been blessed to have befriended people from all over the Globe; one in particular, Pom, who is originally from Vientienne, capital city of Laos, once told Mu about the ways of Southeast Asian folk. Adultery is punished quite severly there if found out and proven.

    Personally, I favor sever punishments for Adultery, for both parties. Either Marriage means something or it doesn’t. I’m cool either way, but this lukewarm stuff is anathema to me. We as a Society need to decide once and for all what it’ll be.

    On your question regarding Divorce; I think it should be allowed but discouraged. Clearly there are events happening in marriages such as you describe, but there are far too many marriages of the kind I have described here and elsewhere in the world also. One major problem, and again both you and Vladimir have spoken to this, is there is so little forethought put into getting married, and/or much too high expectations to the point that they are unreasonable and downright foolish.

    As for Masculine Rule, I don’t see how it can be any other way, quite frankly. The option however, will be in terms of manner: will it be a Masculine Rule of the kind we’re speaking of now, where the Strong at least tries to protect the Weak, or, will it be of the Lord of The Flies variety? If the former, Women will not only have a chance but prosper. If the latter, Women in the Western World can look forward to the kind of Half Life existence their Sisters have in places like Afghanistan and Africa, much of it.

    More later.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  95. MARC blows compared to a “real” railroad

    MARC is good enough for commuting and as a weekday link between DC and Baltimore, and the BWI airport. Decent parking, reasonably reliable, a schedule that works for me, clean, and not too expensive.

    In fact, the entire Washington DC metro system (subway) is commuter-oriented, with its radial layout, feeding the downtown and northwest areas from every direction in the Maryland and Virginia suburbs.

    Like


  96. comment_PATERNITY I think you just ruined Christmas dude… that’s pretty scary..

    Like


  97. on November 30, 2008 at 10:36 am ironrailsironweights

    For today’s dining pleasure, here’s a GNP being displayed in a very bold manner!

    Peter

    Like


  98. Peter,

    Haven’t you noticed that these women that you post are fairly gross? They’re not the chick from “visualizing omega” bad but they’re not great.

    Hint: women who don’t give a damn about grooming and their appearance are those who don’t shave. These women are also usually overweight and less attractive.

    Like


  99. The guy on the left is the beta sap; the punter on the right is the alpha Silverback.

    Guy on left’s head position indicates the realization that he’s (yet again, more than likely) the tool who’s been duped. Facial expression (mouth, eye direction, etc.) indicates embarrassment, frustration, and barely-contained, but ultimately impotent, rage.

    Guy on right’s expression is firm and unapologetic, by comparison. And he looks like he’d be more fun in bed. (I wonder if he dressed up as Thulsa Doom for her.)

    Like


  100. Vladimir:
    ****
    So far, the practical results suggest that guys getting out of the mating game are turning into docile, demasculinized creatures like DA, not into angry mobs that threaten social stability.
    ****
    Except for the fact that America has the highest prison per capita rates IN THE WORLD, Vladimir is quite right.

    The prisons are also gang-rape hell, and nothing like most other prisons in the world.

    It’s a steam-pot, set to maximum and tightly sealed.

    WOO-HOO!

    Like


  101. Comment_Prison:

    The problem with the prison example is that those aren’t guys who VOLUNTARILY chose to get out of the mating game. In fact, many of them ended up in prison because they were OVERCOMMITTED to the mating game. Ever notice how much more criminals seem to enjoy procreating and producing kids than square people do. They just turn that excessive sex drive, competitiveness, hunger for status and rape tendencies to other men when trapped with nothing but other men, but these are not examples of men who ever at any point got out of the mating game. Many of them even have “prison wives.” They just traded in the outside heterosexual mating game for the prison homosexual mating game.

    Like


  102. I’m not so sure things won’t eventually take a more violent turn for the worse among the David Alexander-like Betas. Its still early going in this thing-if we take the publication of Mystery and Strauss’ books as the definitive starting point of the Age of Game, we’re talking less than five years ago. Or, if one wishes to use say, the past four decades as the starting point, when the Pill, Abortion, No Fault Divorce & the Sexual Revolution came down the pike, we’re lookin at less than a half a century-barely moving the needle in evolutionary terms. It might not happen in our lifetimes, but if this thing continues to play itself out, it is very possible that the frustration and anger among at least a segment of the DABs may boil over.

    I honestly do not think this thing is likely to be addressed in any serious way until, and I don’t say this with any sort of glee at all, some cold bodies are having a chalk outline marked out around them. Mainly women’s bodies. As Roissy points out, in strict evolutionary terms, Men are expendable, and this explains why Men’s problems, issues and concerns pale in comparison to that of Women. For example, Prostate cancer kills more Men per year than all the forms of cancer that afflict Women combined, yet Breast, Ovarian and Cervical cancer get far and away more exposure and federal funding. And there are other very well known examples.

    When we fail to, as a Society, give a damn as to how and in what way the Sexes will get on with each other, we are witnessing a Society in Free Fall.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  103. @Vladimir on Gold-diggers

    (4) Finally, a certain Susie Ambrose “has a waiting-list for her life-coaching sessions – a course costs between £10,000-£60,000 – on how to distinguish a gold-digger from a genuine woman.” I mean, guys, if you’re incapable of distinguishing that, you’re probably such suckers and emotional retards that no course on Earth could possibly help you. In fact, you’re likely just falling for another scam by signing up.

    Not really. All women evaluate men to an extent on their earning potential and about 10% of women do so to the exclusion of all else. They ruthlessly pursue this goal, and because they act naturally and according to nature, and give no outward signs that the sole criterion of their happiness is the man’s resources, they truly are hard to spot. Many of these women should be given an Oscar for best performance in a family drama.

    They are smart, funny, beautiful, sexually gifted and do all the things you would expect of them. Except for the fact that their love is conditional on the net worth, they act and behave as any spoiled woman would. Overt gold-diggers are easy to spot. These women are not. They dissemble amazingly well.

    Which means strategies to identify these narrow-minded creatures are worth the money paid. Then again, the simplest strategy I have found is simply to pick up women in a clean but beat up vehicle for that first date. Works like a charm. The gold-diggers run for cover.

    Like


  104. “The things that Roissy and others speak of and write about used to be the kinds of things Fathers passed on to their Sons as they prepared to enter the larger world; now there are grown Men walking around who never have had anything near such talks with their own Progenitors. I think that’s very sad.”

    Some, not all, of what Roissy posts about is what fathers used to teach to their sons. My grandfather didn’t teach my father to be a player and what little he knew about my dad’s tomcatting around didn’t please him.

    “Having said that though, I do think what T recently mentioned about the issue makes some sense; that a Man should at least try to learn some basic Ballroom style dance steps. Enough not to step on her toes at a nice dinner party sort of thing.”

    Yes, I think most people can, with time and effort, learn to waltz competently and for a rather stiff non-dancing man I’d advise the waltz or other American ballroom dance instead of Latin because you don’t look stupid waltzing if you don’t swing your hips.

    Like


  105. “As for Masculine Rule, I don’t see how it can be any other way, quite frankly. The option however, will be in terms of manner: will it be a Masculine Rule of the kind we’re speaking of now, where the Strong at least tries to protect the Weak, or, will it be of the Lord of The Flies variety? If the former, Women will not only have a chance but prosper. If the latter, Women in the Western World can look forward to the kind of Half Life existence their Sisters have in places like Afghanistan and Africa, much of it.”

    A lot of what is promulgated on this blog is a massive backlash based on the 30 year suppression of masculinity. Without a virtuous model of manhood, the one that feminism and modern office life have shredded, the default model that men naturally regress to is the high testosterone, unrelentingly egotistical, at times violent one.
    I’m not saying that anyone who posts here is violent but clearly many men are and men who haven’t been taught a productive model of manhood are the ones likeliest to be violent.

    “Unfortunately for women, the right to screw around is a lot easier to understand than the nuanced differentiation between Chivalrous rule and Lord of the Flies rule. As Roissy points out, in strict evolutionary terms, Men are expendable, and this explains why Men’s problems, issues and concerns pale in comparison to that of Women. ”

    So men, ignorant of constructive masculinity and enraged at the prospect of genetic extinction, with sadistic controlling methods and lethal violence to keep their women – their only chances to influence the next generation – from leaving them to fade without generation into the sands of time.

    I might have to go lie down soon.

    Gold-diggers,
    60 Minutes once did a segment about Dennis Kozlowski, a poor Polish kid from a poor neighborhood in NJ who worked his way up from nothing to be a rich CEO. By the time he made it and started spending money Morley noted that he was spending it with his second wife, who was 20 years younger his junior. When he was sent to prison for embezzlement his pretty young wife – shockingly- divorced him. Now, they never said what prompted the breakup of his first marriage but I think it’s overwhelmingly likely that once he made it big he wanted a trophy instead of a wife who was his age with all of the wear and tear that implies. So he showed no loyalty to the wife who stuck by him on the way up and his trophy showed no loyalty to him. I feel a certain amount of sympathy for anyone who loses it all and goes to prison to boot but I think this guy simply reaped what he sowed.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/22/60minutes/main2596123_page3.shtml

    Like


  106. the sole criterion of their happiness is the man’s resources

    The sole criterion to a woman’s happiness is the regularity of wild, wet, screaming orgasms.

    Gold-digging is more like a job, a source of income, not a key to happiness. All women know that, few admit to it.

    If you can’t bed a gold-digger it’s because you put yourself into the income-providing category instead of the orgasm-providing category. If you are in the latter category, she’ll happily share her (husband’s) material wealth with you.

    Like


  107. I never used the “who lies more, men or women?” opener, but I think I’ll start using the “who drowns more babies in toilets” opener.

    I’ll field test it and report back.

    Like


  108. Mu’Min — thanks for the compliments.

    Vladimir — the results from laissez faire types of sexuality seem to be a decrease in cooperation, no investment in children by men, the sort of separation seen in West Africa, marked by periodic violence.

    The fundamental issue for Westerners is blindness to the faults of other societies. WWI and the Holocaust and WWII were so bad, and so well documented, that the relative record of the West, mostly peaceful, mostly non-violent, mostly cooperative, in relation to other ways of living, has been overlooked.

    I don’t favor institutional violence for adulterers, merely social shaming, social institutions to bind people together, expectations of male and female social networks to preserve marriage and not cheat, in short stronger social ties to bind people together firmly in the face of centrifugal forces of modern society, while still allowing the strength of freedom and innovation. Just not “total” freedom.

    I don’t see unrealistic expectations in the laments of the IT guys I work with, or the postings I see whenever these topics arise. I see guys who are just classed out by the “bad boys” and tend to opt-out for substitution. However, the more this goes on the more political leaders will see that there’s votes in telling men they should not support the bad boy’s kids. I expect to see that made explicitly, soon. It’s the flip-side of the female disdain for most guys that runs through advertising and television and movies. [The portrait of the “Apatow Schlub” is probably a Hollywood fantasy not reality — most guys are VERY angry and the anger itself disturbs me and makes me fear the future.]

    As I’ve blogged, we have had about nearly 50 years of uninterrupted prosperity built on cheap energy. That has made a lot of conflicts and particularly the ones over women (most guys lose, a few win in the current system) less violent and tricky. Because there’s been cheap Ipods, and laptops, and Nintendo, and a zillion other distractions. When they go away due to high sustained energy prices (no real supply additions, spikes in price due to geopolitical conflicts) there is going to be a brutal fight.

    WHEN in human history, have men NOT fought over women? The foundational document of Western Culture, the Iliad, is nothing BUT a fight over women. Western men are somehow “different” and magic fairy dust will make them all cooperate without a strong social structure and ties to women?

    Like


  109. With the sort of male attitude towards women that you find in West Africa. [It’s not a good one.]
    Not all marriages in West Africa are polygamous and of those that are, few men have more than four wives. In cultures where men are allowed to have more than one wife, there is a rule that he must be able to provide for all of them equally.

    Also, polygamous marriages sometimes work well for women who are ambitious and carreer oriented. Instead of one wife trying to do it all, one of her cowives can pick up part of the slack. The nuclear family is too much of a pull on American women. The extended family is a much better option for women who want to raise children and still have something of a existence outside of cooking, cleaning and chaffering
    children around.

    Hello said And yes, the Jessica Cutlers of the world will marry at low rates
    Did you know that Jessica is engaged to a lawyer?
    though God knows there are definitely rude women on public transport. I always thank men who offer me a seat
    Me too, I even give them a little smile. I don’t smile much at men I don’t know.

    Like


  110. Whiskey, what seperation of genders are you writing about?

    Like


  111. Whiskey if every man had a wife, would life then be worth living for the average man? You know you make a woman love a man she does not like? Men are more romantic & believe in “love at first site” far more than women do.

    Like


  112. DABs

    I’m special. 🙂

    I always thank men who offer me a seat

    David only gives up his seat to moms with kids, pregnant women, senior citizens, and the handicapped. Even if you’re a hot girl with nice hair, 1/2 inch acrylics, and five inch stiletto heels, David’s ass is staying in his warm seat.

    That has made a lot of conflicts and particularly the ones over women (most guys lose, a few win in the current system) less violent and tricky.

    Whiskey, once the cheap energy goes away, a world composed of nuclear families will not magically be a cute place where everybody sings together in harmony. Once there are shortages, there will be violence by the middle class fighting for their share as they watch their standard of living decline rapidly. The same distractions of single men are still at play for nuclear families.

    You know you make a woman love a man she does not like?

    If one believes in the Whiskey-Vladimir theories, a woman who hasn’t been exposed to an alpha male will love a beta male, especially if social constraints are placed on her. If you believe in the David Alexander view of the universe, forcing women on beta males only creates broken marriages where neither partner is truly happy with both couples only staying around for financial reasons or for the children or simply out of habit.

    I’d rather live in the real world where I know that no woman really wants me than to live in a delusion where my wife pretends to love me only out of her need for financial security and win social approval from others.

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  113. *You can’t make a woman love a man she does not like*

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  114. I think Whiskey is arguing that every man should get a *shot* at getting a woman. This does not happen now, as most betas no longer have what the current generation of women want.

    No you can’t make a woman love a man that she doesn’t like… but you can strive for having a generation of women want things in their men that that will make the society of which they are part better off in the long run.

    Like


  115. El Guapo:

    They are smart, funny, beautiful, sexually gifted and do all the things you would expect of them. Except for the fact that their love is conditional on the net worth, they act and behave as any spoiled woman would. Overt gold-diggers are easy to spot. These women are not. They dissemble amazingly well.

    You might be right; I’ve never been wealthy enough to attract the attention of either overt or crypto-golddiggers, so I have no experience with them. On the other hand, I don’t know what precisely you mean by “spoiled”, but I’m pretty sure that it includes characteristics that I’d consider a dealbreaker for any sort of serious relationship (and IMO any other self-respecting man should too).

    Like


  116. On Violence
    Hello, I think its important to make a very marked contrast between a senseless and wanton use of violence, and one that is principled. I won’t belabour the point in this post because Whiskey makes it so eloquently himself in his review of the upcoming season premeire of “24” starring Keifer Sutherland. Although fictional, 24 deals with heavy themes of violence as an appropriate response to certain actions taken. I would urge you to check his blog out, also a really good film called A History of Violence.

    The use of necessary, often brutal, and even lethal, use of force/violence is necessary in a world where people, usually Men, can and will hurt or kill you and yours to take whatever you have, and that most definitely includes Women. I will not go into the details, but suffice it to say that I have employed such methods in the past, without hesitation or remorse and would do so again if the need arose for it.

    The current meme of our time, that violence is never necessary is a Fool’s Errand. Violence is part of the Circle of Life, and is as much a part of the Human Condition as are Love, Hate or indeed Sex/Reproduction. As always, the issue isn’t whether this is the case; but one of scale, intent & context. Wanton and indiscriminate use of violence is scourge on the Human Race; focused, principled and swift use of Violence, is just and intelligent.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  117. Jam, for that, men will have to take more advantage of this so-called liberation, and insist on having a more active role in their children’s development.

    There are some pretty screwed up women out there who minimalize and devalue men, but men have to stop believing this hype. Be there for your kids, and even if the mom refuses or makes things difficult, don’t sweat her. Let your kids know that when they are able to see you, you will be there for them.

    When women don’t see men as some alien creatures, and men don’t see women as alien creatures, people relate to one another better across genders. If you don’t have kids, take a more active role in your siblings’ kids lives.

    Teach by example. Tell them the things your parents told you, or that you wish they’d told you.

    Having my dad around has saved me alot of grief that I see many of my female peers going through. I’m sure that it has helped my brothers too. It’s what keeps them strong enough to continue pursuing their dreams, and any woman who can’t handle that just has to gtfo.

    …but one of my brothers didn’t have my dad until he was 17. Yet it still did alot of good. This kid, child of a flake and a criminal currently in prison, was written off as doomed before he landed in my dad’s classroom, and eventually in our home. Now he’s a poet and soon to be a teacher himself. My mom jokes that of the three of us, he turned out to be the good one, while my biological brother and I are more the rebels. Love is an awesome force. Even if it’s a little late, it does alot of good.

    Like


  118. on November 30, 2008 at 7:00 pm Dr. Grzlickson

    “But whatever point you are trying to make by quoting from that previous Roissy post is not clear.”

    The point is that he’s an idiot. Let’s review his poem yet again:

    “Arise, you branded by envy,
    You whole world of the entitled and resentful!
    Our quisling SWPLs boil,
    Ready to lead us into a fight to your death.
    We will destroy this anglo-saxon world
    Down to the foundations, and then
    We will build our new world – Zion!
    He who was nothing will become everything!

    CHORUS:
    This will be the final
    and decisive battle.
    With the Internationale
    the brother will arise.”

    Like


  119. on November 30, 2008 at 7:05 pm Dr. Grzlickson

    This is how stupid people sound when they attempt to appear informed/smart/competent. This blog is totally hollow when the content isn’t shocking or controversial, because the author is a one-note jackoff. Luckily, he’s run out of material, hence the recent garbage. That poem was epically terrible.

    Like


  120. Even if you’re a hot girl with nice hair, 1/2 inch acrylics, and five inch stiletto heels, David’s ass is staying in his warm seat.

    I also yield my seat to the elderly, pregnant, injured, etc., not normally to young and healthy women. It seems toolish when I see a guy make a show of giving his seat up for a young woman. He’s guaranteed to make sure he says “Ma’am” a lot too, especially if it’s a middle-aged black woman he’s getting up for. Dumbass whiterpeople.

    However, paradoxically, I prefer to stand when the train is crowded. That’s because sitting in an aisle seat means you’ll have some dude’s hips/ass right next to you at your face level. or his coat dangling into your personal space.

    I’m not sure however why people make such a fuss of giving a seat up for an otherwise healthy blind person. The clamor that always accompanies this — and it’s a multiperson cacophony — makes me wince… the pity for the blind dude and the self-satisfaction of all these nice people is too palpable.

    It would be cool if the blind dude (who at first usually declines taking the seat) doesn’t just say “my eyes are bad, not my legs!”

    Like


  121. not normally to young and healthy women.

    On second thought, thinking back to actual specifics, I do tend to give up my seat for younger women too. But I do it without a fuss. For example, I might get up, catch her eye, and gesture to the seat.

    Like


  122. whiskey:

    Vladimir — the results from laissez faire types of sexuality seem to be a decrease in cooperation, no investment in children by men, the sort of separation seen in West Africa, marked by periodic violence.

    I don’t see any sort of “decrease in cooperation” happening in the West. Governmental, academic, and corporate bureaucratic hives are functioning in more perfect and formalized order than ever, and bringing more and more areas of human life under tight control. If anything, I see a trend towards greater large-scale collectivism. Informal, anarchic social networks of friends, neighbors, and extended families have weakened greatly, but their roles are in turn being taken over by the mentioned faceless bureaucracies. It’s true that some areas and social strata in some Western countries have experienced increased crime in recent past, but you haven’t produced a single shred of evidence that it has anything to do with your theories.

    Furthermore, decreased voluntary parental investment by men is indeed happening, but the government is stepping in to force involuntary investment through child support and, more importantly, an extensive high-tax welfare state. Except for the still large, but decreasing percentage of women who have conservative values instilled by upbrining, most women will heartily support a political arrangment where they have an option to go for the single motherhood with the government as a father substitute.

    Mind you, I myself shudder at these developments, and I think they’ll have horrific consequences in the long run, but in a farther future and in a way different from what you predict.

    The fundamental issue for Westerners is blindness to the faults of other societies. WWI and the Holocaust and WWII were so bad, and so well documented, that the relative record of the West, mostly peaceful, mostly non-violent, mostly cooperative, in relation to other ways of living, has been overlooked.

    Very true.

    I don’t favor institutional violence for adulterers, merely social shaming, social institutions to bind people together, expectations of male and female social networks to preserve marriage and not cheat, in short stronger social ties to bind people together firmly in the face of centrifugal forces of modern society, while still allowing the strength of freedom and innovation. Just not “total” freedom.

    I agree with all this, except that I wouldn’t describe the forces of the modern society as “centrifugal”. More like a corporate state Leviathan breaking all informal ties between people in order to assimilate them on its own terms.

    I don’t see unrealistic expectations in the laments of the IT guys I work with, or the postings I see whenever these topics arise. I see guys who are just classed out by the “bad boys” and tend to opt-out for substitution.

    This is where you are in denial. Just observe DA, who is a typical specimen of the sort of men who opt out. He doesn’t deny that he could easily find a girl, he just says that he’d never be able to find one that would be better than porn. I also meet a bunch of ultra-nerdy IT guys at work, and all those who are willing to lower their standards enough have girlfriends (I’m in Canada, and I’m sure the U.S. is not too different).

    There are of course guys who could realistically target the 3-4 range, but instead try hit on fives and sixes and get rejected by them constantly. Well, of course that they’ll end up whining how even plain girls are rejecting them — but both the male and the female attraction Bell curve have long tails that extend even below the “plain” level.

    Mind you, I’m not saying that in conditions of sexual laissez-faire, all men could find wives if they all wanted to. Alphas would monopolize many attractive women, so a certain female shortage would still ensue. But currently, there is only a bad shortage of pretty girls (7+, things are already much better in the 6-7 range). Very unattractive girls (4 and below) are by no means in shortage. Just ask them.

    However, the more this goes on the more political leaders will see that there’s votes in telling men they should not support the bad boy’s kids. I expect to see that made explicitly, soon.

    Oh, come on. Are you blind to what is actually going on in the real world? First, politicians always see far greater benefits in pandering to the female than male electorate. Women are on average much more disciplined and ideologically inflamed voters. Second, the reigning PC norms would never allow this political message to be broadcast in any form. Third, can’t you see to what extent men are actually buying into the sexual laissez-faire philosophy, no matter if it suits them in reality?

    WHEN in human history, have men NOT fought over women? The foundational document of Western Culture, the Iliad, is nothing BUT a fight over women. Western men are somehow “different” and magic fairy dust will make them all cooperate without a strong social structure and ties to women?

    You’re forgetting to ask two other important questions.

    First, when in human history have men been spoiled, softened, and pussified like nowadays? Are you even aware what percentage of modern men would cower and piss their pants if faced with the prospect of having to fight for anything? Especially those in whom you see the future disgruntled class.

    Second, when in human history have people, including men, been so radically reduced to the present status of cogs in the machinery of the corporate state? They’ll cooperate because they know of no other existence except as cogs.

    Like


  123. Vladimir, I agree with a lot of what you say in your post above. One place I think you’r ebeing too pessimistic is here:

    First, when in human history have men been spoiled, softened, and pussified like nowadays? Are you even aware what percentage of modern men would cower and piss their pants if faced with the prospect of having to fight for anything? Especially those in whom you see the future disgruntled class.

    Second, when in human history have people, including men, been so radically reduced to the present status of cogs in the machinery of the corporate state? They’ll cooperate because they know of no other existence except as cogs.

    Natural disasters, emergencies, and so on often bring out the better side of even very softened men. Apparently there have been tons of cases of suburban and rural communities outside of New Orleans after Katrina that acted spontaneously to get food and shelter, protect women and children, fend off looters, etc.

    Like


  124. on November 30, 2008 at 8:06 pm Dr. Grzlickson

    “Arise, you branded by envy,
    You whole world of the entitled and resentful!
    Our quisling SWPLs boil,
    Ready to lead us into a fight to your death.
    We will destroy this anglo-saxon world
    Down to the foundations, and then
    We will build our new world – Zion!
    He who was nothing will become everything!

    CHORUS:
    This will be the final
    and decisive battle.
    With the Internationale
    the brother will arise.”

    Like


  125. Nicole:

    > Be there for your kids, and even if the mom refuses or makes things difficult, don’t sweat her. Let your kids know that when they are able to see you, you will be there for them.

    And what if you don’t get a shot at kids because the women are choosing to share alphas, or if your kids are kept from you by the State.

    Vladimir:

    > They’ll cooperate because they know of no other existence except as cogs.

    Indeed, when do slaves ever rebel, the (very, very) occasional Toussaint Louverture notwithstanding.

    Hmmm…. perhaps a small religious group will pack up in their starship and found a New Zion. Hey it’s worked before in earlier times of history.

    Like


  126. PA:

    Natural disasters, emergencies, and so on often bring out the better side of even very softened men. Apparently there have been tons of cases of suburban and rural communities outside of New Orleans after Katrina that acted spontaneously to get food and shelter, protect women and children, fend off looters, etc.

    You’re right that there are still many fine men around, but you’ll probably agree that a significant percentage of men have been softened and conditioned into helpless docility to a level unprecedented in human history. Maybe I am too pessimistic in my impressions of what percentage of men are like that.

    But more importantly, soft men are to a large degree exactly those who are generally nerdy and unattractive to girls (although there are also soft peacocks who do very well with women). This is why I think it’s absurd to believe, like Whiskey, that they will lead some sort of social upheaval due to their frustrations. I would bet that unlike Whiskey’s frustrated coworkers, men who led and organized these post-Katrina efforts had never spent much time whining that they couldn’t get any girls.

    Like


  127. PA, Vladimir,
    I think we’re leaving something out here.

    Cho, the young Asian and deeply troubled man who took some 30 lives before taking his own last year at Virginia Tech, did so in large part because he was fed up with being spurned and then made the object of ridicule. The young White man at Northwestern went in a similar blaze of glory, and later we found out that he had been dumped by his girlfriend. How many times do we hear of young men and even not so young men who when pushed to the edge act out in this way. I am in no way saying that any of this is justified, only saying that it is the inevitable result of having to deal with has to be perceived as a stacked deck in the dating/mating game.

    As one who lives and breathes in the inner city, I can tell you that easily half, if not most, if ALL homicides that occur in Philly and elsewhere around the urban centers of this country have at their heart a female. Indeed, the number one reason why so many Black men risk long jail terms or even death to deal drugs is to be acceptable mates to choice females. Again, in no way do I condone or justify any of this; do the crime, get pinched, you do the time, is my motto. Having said that though, there is something to be said for the role Women play in all of this. If they wanted to, it all could end tomorrow. They don’t, as a group, I mean. As Vladimir has noted, far too many Women are ready and willing to let the Taxpayer be Hubby and Daddy. Until Women are made to endure the harsh consequences for bad choices made, we will continue to see what we see, more Chos.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  128. Whiskey makes many excellent points but I think your recent comments were a needed corrective to his apocalyptic points.

    I have a feeling that a big part of the “soft men” phenomenon is very superficial, and when pressed, or hungry, a lot of nerds, yuppies, and wimps would surprise even themselves, especially if there is one tough guy with leadership skills among them (umm, an Alpha?).

    One part of the problem is that most middle class people have a lot to lose, like their jobs.

    Like


  129. Whiskey,
    Successful politicians have all the women they want as do business and media leaders. They don’t care one wit about guys that end up rejected and alone.

    Vlad,
    I agree that high expectations caused by the pornification of culture are problematic, but do you really think that’s what drives the tragicomic DA? Men with odd sexual tastes and obsessions have always existed. Dante, for instance fell in love with Beatrice when both were nine and worshiped her from afar until the day she died. Although his parents arranged a marriage for him he was never able to content himself with his wife and loved Beatrice until the day he died even though he never knew her well. It’s just as well that in the modern world men like these don’t marry because they don’t make good husbands.

    Like


  130. (The above comment was to Vladimir)

    Mu’Min,

    I always keep Cho in the back of my mind. And I wonder – did society create him, in other words, push an otherwise unremarkable boy over the edge? Or will there always be Chos/Dylans/Klebolds among us? I suspect that Cho was an 0 m e g a with mental illness problems who would likely not have found a woman, no matter how society he lived in.

    The Columbine boys probably had a better shot, since at least superficially they didn’t seem like losers (as far as I know, they had friends, they looked normal and healthy while Cho looked like a severy withdrawn headcase)

    I agree with you and Whiskey on many of your larger points.

    Indeed, the number one reason why so many Black men risk long jail terms or even death to deal drugs is to be acceptable mates to choice females.

    Can you go more into this?

    Like


  131. Indeed, the number one reason why so many Black men risk long jail terms or even death to deal drugs is to be acceptable mates to choice females

    Can you go more into this?

    Men need money to prove to women that they are acceptable mates for long-term relationships PA. A sixteen year old in the hood sees an 18-drug dealer getting the best-looking girl on the block. Sixteen year old Calvin who works at McDonalds can get a girl but most likely not the 10.

    Like


  132. Picking up where I left off, and to cosign the broad theme Whiskey has spoken to, one of my major criticisms of Game is that it is completely naive as to the nature of Men when pushed up against the Wall in the fierce competition for Females. Many of my White, cloistered brothers have absolutely no idea just how vicious, mean, brutish and short ish can get out there. And as time goes on w/this kind of situation-which, let’s be clear, didn’t begin with Game, but with the “liberation” of Women-the broad assumptions about Civil Society fall away bit by bit. Roissy sounds like an interesting and at heart good guy, but I really don’t think he knows what it is to be on the warm end of a Ruger or Kalishnakov. Where I come from Game comes w/a serious Caveat: Bring a Heater. And be prepared to use it.

    Less than a mile away from Roissy exists a world where what I just noted is very real and is probably occuring while we speak. Challenging an Alpha there could very well end in you lying in a pool of your own blood, and this race to the bottom could indeed spread to areas of our polity where “things don’t normally happen like that”-Cho, anyone?

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  133. Mu,
    Cho had had severe psychological problems his whole life, and although I’m sure that loneliness didn’t help the majority of unpopular weirdos are not violent. Similarly the Northwestern guy had probably had incidents of minor violence or extreme temper in the past. Healthy people can respond to the pains of the mating game without murder.

    As for inner city killings being over girls, I don’t doubt it. But don’t the men bear responsibility for going after another man’s woman?

    Like


  134. PA saidOne part of the problem is that most middle class people have a lot to lose, like their jobs

    Excellent observation PA.

    The poor have nothing to lose so they don’t mind fist fighting.
    The wealthy fight thru courts via civil suits but I’m not sure how the middle class fight.

    Like


  135. Hello saidAs for inner city killings being over girls, I don’t doubt it. But don’t the men bear responsibility for going after another man’s woman?

    Sometimes it’s directly over girls and other times it’s because of perceived disrespect or drug territory

    From what I read, Cho had major problems with wealthy students.

    The young White man at Northwestern went in a similar blaze of glory, and later we found out that he had been dumped by his girlfriend
    Mu’min- The guy who shot a shoping mall last year had been recently dumped by his girlfriend too.

    Like


  136. chic noir,
    the middle class sues, but they just can’t afford to send their attack dog lawyers into battle indefinitely.

    Like


  137. got it hello. I guess the middle class are more for small claims court?

    Like


  138. MARC is good enough

    MARC’s schedule is sparse and weak during peak hours, and the lack of mid-day and weekend service is sparse. Mind you, my home line here on Long Island features service every half-hour on weekends and off-peak with service around every 10 to 20 minutes during peak hours.

    Washington DC metro system (subway)

    Yes, the Great Society Subway. 🙂

    That’s the layout of most systems in the US and many other systems. The downside is that said systems are of limited use for suburb to suburb commuting.

    Black men risk long jail terms or even death to deal drugs is to be acceptable mates to choice females

    If you’re willing to risk long jail terms for pussy, you’re a fucking idiot who will go nowhere in life. Are these men so weak and fragile and desperate?

    Like


  139. As one who lives and breathes in the inner city, I can tell you that easily half, if not most, if ALL homicides that occur in Philly and elsewhere around the urban centers of this country have at their heart a female. Indeed, the number one reason why so many Black men risk long jail terms or even death to deal drugs is to be acceptable mates to choice females.

    Yes, exactly. That was my point earlier in saying that men in prison are not good examples of men choosing to opt out of the mating game. Their obsession with the mating game is exactly what got them into prison, and transferring and applying that obsessive status-based mating energy to an all-male confined environment helps make prison the unique hell that it is. Some even say the whole Bloods-Crip war all originated over a guy from each gang fighting over a single girl.

    Like


  140. Hello,
    Understood; but really, how many Chos do you need to cause absolute Bedlam? Hmm? Remember: it only took 19 dedicated men, w/nothing to loose, to knock America’s fronts right out on Front St.

    I’m saying that those who embrace Game, and those who embrace Women’s Lib, haven’t thought through, at all, the likes of Cho, or for that matter that I’ve just described in the last few posts wrt the Inner City. I see so much Naivete here, so many assumptions, on all sides, that it would be funny if it weren’t so serious. The vast majority of homicides that occur in the inner city are crimes of passion, w/people who know each other, and like I said before, often a Female is at the center of it.

    Like I said, I don’t condone any of this. I’m just saying that we can expect more such occurances, the Chos, the inner city styles of crimes/homicides of passion, of shootouts at pickup bars and clubs, all of it. It is the inevitable result of a vastly charged, er charred, dating and mating landscape.

    For PA, an Illustration…

    In the year 1993, a close cousin of Mu’s was murdered; he was shot w/a clip full of 9mm bullets from a Glock pistol while waiting in line to get in a popular club. Mu’s cousin was a very ambitious drug dealer; his assassin was a very jealous competitor. And his jealousy was more than merely professional.

    At Mu’s cousin’s funeral, two youn Black Women in particular showed up. Sitting in the front row, right in from of the casket, one looking like a typical “Rashidah” and the other like the typical BAP, commenced to arguing over who was Mu’s cousin’s “real woman”. The bickering got so vociferous that they nearly came to blows and had to be seperated.

    Mu doesn’t know to this day as to whether his cousin had kids with one or either of them, although the apparent evidence would seem to suggest so.

    One thing is certain though: Mu’s cousin, and the actions of the Women at his wake, speaks volumes to the issues and themes Mu has posted about recently.

    So again, I say that the major Advocates of Game are grossly naive if they think they can go to the water’s edge wrt th base natures of Women and especially Men and simply pull back w/o repercussions. If things are gonna get that raw, it only makes sense to go to the next logical step. Violence.

    Being Top Dawg can be quite stressful. Especially when you’ve got a Bullseye painted on your forehead. And another on your back.

    Holla back

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  141. on November 30, 2008 at 9:51 pm ironrailsironweights

    I also yield my seat to the elderly, pregnant, injured, etc., not normally to young and healthy women. It seems toolish when I see a guy make a show of giving his seat up for a young woman. He’s guaranteed to make sure he says “Ma’am” a lot too, especially if it’s a middle-aged black woman he’s getting up for. Dumbass whiterpeople.

    In over a decade of train commuting I seldom notice men offering seats to non-elderly/non-disabled/non-preggo women. Doing so may have been expected at one time, but not any longer, in fact I suspect that most women would consider such a gesture somewhat insulting.

    Not that many men would relinquish their seats to a woman or man who might be in need of one. A few years ago when an about-to-hatch preggo woman boarded a crowded evening train, several SCA’s near where she stood carefully avoided looking at her, so they could pretend not to notice that she needed a seat (I was sitting in a window seat with someone next to me.) Of course, the SCA’s could not reasonably be expected to stand, as they were physically exhausted from a da spent shuffling papers, and had to conserve their strength for their weekend rounds of cartball. Finally, a woman in her 50’s got up and offered her seat, giving a nice dirty look to the rooted-in-place SCA’s.

    Peter

    Like


  142. chic noir,

    I just looked up Jessica Cutler. She’s engaged to a corporate lawyer in NYC and when asked about their relationship said “How we met is sort of a blur. I was so wasted.”

    http://gawker.com/5098669/washingtonienne-jessica-cutler-engaged?skyline=true&s=x

    *DEAD*

    Like


  143. WWI and the Holocaust and WWII were so bad, and so well documented, that the relative record of the West, mostly peaceful, mostly non-violent, mostly cooperative, in relation to other ways of living, has been overlooked

    As I like to note, among whiterpeople, there seems to be a philosophy in which white people are held to a higher standard than others, almost as if whites are the beacons of knowledge and enlightenment.

    He doesn’t deny that he could easily find a girl, he just says that he’d never be able to find one that would be better than porn.

    It’s interesting to note how Vladimir picked up on why I don’t bother, but other people that I discuss the issue with in the real world are either angry at me or unable to understand my preferences.

    Like


  144. *recovering, as though from false heart attack*

    How could any man marry Jessica Cutler? Especially a corporate lawyer who could get someone who wasn’t a total skank? For those of you who don’t know about her, see the below link.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_cutler

    As a woman I wouldn’t marry the famously marriage-averse yet incredibly handsome and sexy George Clooney even if he asked me because I’d know he’d never be faithful. Considering that men hate being sexually betrayed more than women why did this man propose? She’s attractive, but she’s not Angelina Jolie. I refuse to believe that future adultery victim Rubio couldn’t find another half-Asian chick in NYC who looks exactly like her.

    Like


  145. The young White man at Northwestern went in a similar blaze of glory, and later we found out that he had been dumped by his girlfriend

    I’ve been told off by girls before, and I didn’t go around playing with guns planning revenge attacks on them or anyone else. So again, why is David Alexander magically different?

    A sixteen year old in the hood sees an 18-drug dealer getting the best-looking girl on the block

    I’ve jokingly noted that a girl in the ghetto chasing after a drug dealer is the equivalent of a middle class girl chasing a boy in law school. The women are trying to get the men while they’re at the bottom and hoping that he will rise to the top and keep them as girlfriends long enough so they can enjoy the wealth that their respective positions provide. If you’re young and foolish, given the choice between the drug dealer and the guy going off the work at Wal-Mart, the drug dealer’s potential future earnings can be an attractive proposition.

    Like


  146. Mu,
    I agree that the problems discussed here are important but what the Cho story highlights is the need for bosses, teachers etc. to encourage the mentally ill to seek treatment. Loose cannons like that are just as likely to snap over losing their job (post office employees). Now divorce and easy game-style breakups mean that relationships are very unstable and while most people find this stressful some people simply can’t handle it at all.

    But men are also to blame here. Men profit as well from the ability to switch spouses and lovers at will. If your cousin was two-timing those women than he deserves some share of the blame. I’m not saying that this lead to his death or that he deserved to die but no one put a gun to his head and ordered him to game two women simultaneously.

    For another school shooting story, and a hair-raising environment, here’s another article.

    http://dir.salon.com/story/mwt/feature/2005/08/08/red_lake/index.html

    This American Indian boy admired Hitler for his racial purity ideology.

    Like


  147. hello:

    I agree that high expectations caused by the pornification of culture are problematic, but do you really think that’s what drives the tragicomic DA?

    Well, it’s a whole set of factors coming together. But you’re right that the basic one is different.

    In the old days in the West, marriage, family, and kids used to be the standard strategy in the everyday struggle for survival — it was the way society implemented the basic division of labor and the safety net for disability and old age. Some people never married or couldn’t have kids, but they were either members of special social classes like priests or unlucky, somehow handicapped individuals. A good catch for a wife was one who would be able to help her man best in this hard and uncertain struggle — healthy, strong, fertile, well-raised, industrious, responsible, and possibly with a good dowry. Beauty was a secondary issue, a briefly-lasting luxury for which it would be crazy to trade any practical qualities in such a harsh word of scarcity, and even the worst catch was still better than nothing. (Among the upper classes, the story was different, but that’s not relevant for my main point.)

    But nowadays, we take not only survival, but in fact a very high standard of living for granted, and the division of labor and the safety net are organized by our corporate and government overlords. Relationships with the opposite sex are no longer perceived as an essential part of the survival strategy, but instead an optional hobby that’s merely supposed to make life more fun. Similarly, kids are no longer an essential source of labor and old-age insurance, but instead just luxury pets that will likely become near-strangers once they finish schooling. Whether you have them or not, you’ll likely spend your last years forgotten in some sordid institution, not as a respected family patriarch.

    In such a situation, men like DA will conclude that women below a certain threshold of attractiveness are less fun than porn and other substitutes. Since they see no reason for relationships, let alone marriage other than fun, they choose to remain single if they believe that they can’t get any girls prettier than that. Coming from a different culture that’s still a generation or two behind most Western countries in this regard, I still find it somewhat odd that men can be without any desire to play at least some sort of pater familias role in their lives. But judging by what DA and similar guys are saying and doing, that’s the way it really is.

    I have caricatured the situation a bit here, but I think the main point is correct.

    Men with odd sexual tastes and obsessions have always existed.

    Everyone has at least some odd tastes, but a DA-style porn addiction is likely to exacerbate the situation.

    Like


  148. Vlad,

    “Everyone has at least some odd tastes, but a DA-style porn addiction is likely to exacerbate the situation.”

    David Alexander is a sweetie and if he’d met me when I was a naive college student he probably would have been able to get some sex out of my misguided maternalism. But my take on him is that he’s a masochist who enjoys the pain of sexual frustration and seeing himself as a complete and irredeemable omega that no woman could ever desire. Furthermore I suspect he enjoys exciting pity and contempt from people in cyber space.

    And yes most men have at least one or two weird fantasies that most women find off-putting but in a few unfortunate souls this goes to the level of being unable to function in a relationship unless their partner shares the exact same kink. Dan Savage publishes letters from such men all the time.

    David Alexander: None of this should be construed as a personal attack. I like you, but I am simply debating.

    Like


  149. Vlad,
    I agree with most of the rest of your commentary on the West, and I think it doesn’t bode well for us that constructive patriarchy is in it’s death rattle.

    http://www.newamerica.net/publications/articles/2006/the_return_of_patriarchy

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  150. I still find it somewhat odd that men can be without any desire to play at least some sort of pater familias role in their lives

    I’d like to have children at some point in my life, but I think I’ve discussed most of the reasons ad nausaeum as to why I’m inclined to avoid having children. Plus, I need to settle the whole college degree, employment problem first, then use the money to “enjoy my life” (read: ride trains in white people countries), and then I’ll deal with kids later.

    The desire to be a classic pater familias just isn’t there because there really isn’t much of a point unless one has children and grandchildren to brag about. It’s no longer good enough to just have kids, but they have to be best and brightest, otherwise, it’s kinda pointless unless one really loves children in general. My niece and nephew seem to think I should have my own kids and beg me to find a g/f, but I spoil them rotten, and they’re biased…

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  151. Rockin’ comments by many, but especially Vlad and Mu’Min.

    “David Alexander” is one of the great cultural creations of the internet age, as far as I’m concerned.

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  152. Looking at Claire Jones, Lois Feldman, and Jessica Cutler I’m beginning to think the groom in “Visualizing Omega” did pretty well for himself.

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  153. ““David Alexander” is one of the great cultural creations of the internet age, as far as I’m concerned.”

    Action figure available, complete with oversize jacking arm and refillable splooge reservoir. Realistic commuter railcar and commemorative metrocards sold separately.

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  154. Personally, I think this is unfair. These guys aren’t being shown with the same facial and body posture. If you compared a pic of them both staring straight ahead, then maybe I’d be able to weigh in on this.

    Seriously, guys, body language has MAD effects on your game. And Roissy, before you ask us to judge one man against another, be sure to give us pictures that relate two people in similar environments, not this contrived bullshit. 😦

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  155. ps – I hate that wordpress or roissy’s theme makes my punctuations actual smiley faces. I would never want them to look that cute. ;}

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  156. I do think every man ought to have a fair shot at a woman, otherwise we risk a race to the bottom for violence. After all, it was not that long ago that people shot it out in San Francisco streets, and formed a vigilante mob hanging gangsters (Committe of Vigilance).

    Chicnoir: Men and women are living, largely unconnected lives. Without marriage to tie them together why do men care about women? They don’t. That is the separation of genders. Like in West Africa — the men just laze around and stage raids or violence of one form or another, the women do all the work in the field.

    And yes, duh life would be worth living for the average man. Also, just as important, dying for their family. Or, you can believe infrastructure and so on just “happen.” Along with defense against violent attackers. See Bombay. Mu’Min is quite correct, violence if anything is even MORE probable given technology (AK-47s sell now for only $150 in parts of Africa).

    Women are quite flexible. They can certainly fall in love with more average guys if that’s the social expectation.

    Nicole: your prescriptions are good but to make them happen requires social institutions and mores. They don’t just happen.

    Vladimir: the faceless bureaucracy did poorly in Katrina, any major Earthquake (including Kobe), Bombay, or any crisis/disaster where speed of execution is called for. I agree that women will want government as daddy. However that produces a race to the bottom as Mu’Min has described. I’ve seen it in New Orleans pre-Katrina. Leviathan is quite dead. GM, Ford, GE, the LAT, all the big employers shedding workers. Government is a “No White Guy” zone because of Affirmative Action. The White Middle class hops from job to job, the working class does so as well, and Mexican labor is almost entirely informal and off the books.

    But here is the issue: women want a high-tax environment for childcare, government as daddy, bad boys galore. Men need a low tax environment for either bling or diversions, they don’t care about kids who are probably not theirs. There are votes there for the taking because of the fundamental conflict of interests between men and women.

    I’m in the LA area. The IT guys are all decently attractive, fit, in shape. They cannot get dates. Meanwhile if there was widespread guys sitting out in favor of pr0n, there would be lots of women in the middle attractiveness range complaining they had no boyfriends or dates. This is not the case. The complaint of women, is that past 30 or so they must LOWER their standards because they can’t pull in the same quality guy they did before. You don’t get magically ugly because you work in IT, it is the negative image of being “smart” that women object to (women hate intelligence in men unless it’s masked with high-testosterone aggressiveness).

    Oh yes, the votes will be there, and someone will figure out the coalition: married people + single men > single women, Blacks, Hispanics, Gays. Single women already voted Obama 70-29, so there is no risk in running against them just as their block vote allows a coalition to write them off.

    There are no cogs in the machine. That was the USSR. In today’s globalized economy there are layoffs, a government that does nothing but offer PC nostrums, global terrorism, tremendous uncertainty and risk, with little payoff. The party of the 1990’s is over and so is the Bush pushback against terror that bought us some breathing room. Heck even or especially the military are highly trained volunteers.

    I don’t think there will be upheaval i.e. riots in the streets around the corner, but profound social changes that leave women on their own and a falling apart very quickly of male cooperation.

    I don’t know what “soft” is. Nerdiness built the atomic bomb, the P-47 Mustang, the M-1 rifle, the AK-47, the Glock, the computer, and a lot else. If building technology is something that condemns men to pr0n and that’s it … we will swiftly lose our technical edge. Women’s dislike of nerds is as stupid as men wanting implants on women.

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  157. Thanks, Mike Blowhard.

    Hello, my point is simply that if we gonna do the “Survival of The Fittest” thing, we’d better be prepared for a significant amount of bloodletting, just like those Cavedudes did in that flick Quest For Fire. For some odd and strange reason, people, especially Women, simply cannot get their heads aroung the idea that what motivates Men, from Broad St selling China White to Men on Wall St selling imported goods from China the country, is, forgive my bluntness: PUSSY! The higher you go in what you do, the more you can get. Its really that simple.

    Under the “old rules” in the West every guy had a shot at getting a gal, and here I must disagree respectively w/Vladimir: being able to score a 3 or 4 just ain’t gonna get it. The reason is simple, because Men are for the most part, too visually stimulated for it to work in a broad based way. Sure, Media and “Pornification” play a role, but it ain’t like Cinderella’s homely sisters had guys beating a path to their door. This is an age old thing, and even when the Western way of doing things was at its best could not overcome that. Its been said before and it bears repeating: there MUST be a certain “floor” of Female Beauty and/or Sexual Prowess BEFORE ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN between her and the Man. Its really that simple.

    The issue to me isn’t whether there are guys out there who are crazy, the world has been and will be filled with such people. My issue is that social landscape has radically changed in the sexual mating and dating arena to such an extent, that Choice for Women will mean that there WILL be losers, and the terms are not pretty. The Defaut Position for Man in such an instance, where unwittingly Women now prefer a Darwinistic setup to the “oppressive ways” of the “patriarchy” is VIOLENCE. Lots of it. And because so many of my White brethren live clositered lives so far removed from anything the likes of which I or other inner city dwellers face almost daily, I consider large swaths of Game to be almost foolish. Maybe there are a good number of White guys, and a few Black to let DA tell it, who are completely cool to just “lose” with honor, or to be a sucker. But I know Men too well to actually believe this will go down without a shot being fired or a machete being hacked into someone’s flesh.

    We are playing around with one of the most Forces in the Universe, People. The Force of Reproduction. If the Evo-Psych theory that undergirds Game is true-that it is this drive that lay at the base of all our interactions-then it only follows that at some point, Violent means will be resorted to when Civil Society either fails to enforce rules of fairness, or just doesn’t give a shit. Very few Men will be cool to just fade out of Genetic Existence. This is why violent rapists persist in our midst. And why, should Game be followed to its logical conclusion, we can look forward to quite a few bodies strewn in its wake.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  158. Two other points.

    Whiskey’s right, and even Feminists themselves hang their hat on this notion: that Social Conditioning is a powerful thing. Women can have their more baser instincts brought under a degree of subjection, so as to allow a more level playing field for the guys to compete on. That might sound harsh or even sexist, but I say to those who take this view that they are being woefully Naive about Human Nature, especially as it relates to Women. Had it not been for the Victorian mores of the time Jane Austen just might have hooked up with the other guy over Mr. Darcy. Think about it.

    Whiskey’s also right-without Marriage, or for that matter, if one really thinks about Roissy’s analysis on the Scewed Up date thread-what else is there to serve as a way to bond Men and Women together, in our time? As Putnam and others have put it so very well, American Civil and Social life is all but dead. How many here are members of a Church? Mosque? Synagogue? How many here are members of the PTA? Their Block Association? Townwatch? How many here are Masons or Elks? How many here are even members of a Fraternity or Sorority? Rotary Club? Roissy has proudly stated that he doesn’t bother to vote, so I’m pretty sure we wouldn’t see him at any local GOP meetings-AND THAT’S IN THE NATION’S CAPITAL.

    This should be a huge cause for alarm, folks. I know it is for me. The real deal is that Marriage is one of the great Socializers of Men. It cools out their baser instincts and channels it into productive outlets that ultimately benefit everyone. Its hard to be a Blood or a Crip while also being married w/a gaggle of kids.

    The idea that a Man couls, provided he played by the rules and worked hard, get a fairly attractive gal who would be sexually faithful to him and give him a family to care in his dotage, is something that is fast disappearing. In the Black community, some 40% of all Black Women will NEVER marry in their lifetime. Forget being divorced, or even being cheated on in that regard; its not even an option for them. And of course, no one here needs me to inform them that the out of wedlock birthrate in Black America exceeds 70%. Question: how does one propose to actually build a Civil Society under that rubric? Please, someone, tell me?

    And as Whiskey and others have noted, this trend is coming to a Lilly White Exburb near YOU. Its only a matter of time before similar patterns of violence begin to play itself out, too.

    And hence my major critique of Game-that it naively ignores this aspect of the Human Condition, a kind of Lord of The Flies level of existence that is inevitable when Males have no constraints placed upon them, mainly by Females. Women are the sexual gatekeepers, and if anyone here doubts that, please, please, please, go visit any San Francisco bath house. It has long been known that Gay Men have far and away more sex than do Straight Men, or at the very least more chances for it. The vast majority of Women would never go in for such an arrangement, if they did, the line of straight guys would be forming around the corner like the premiere for a Star Wars flick.

    And Hello, who said anything about my deceased cuz “two timing”? LOL. If anything, the two women at the least, entertained the strong possibility that they ain’t the only one. As has been noted earlier, the issue for women is RESOURCES, not her man gettin’ some on the side. And the truth is, STDs and the like notwithstanding, I think most women really don’t care about that as much as fearing that her man would form a deep and emotional bond w/another woman, and thus leaving her high and dry. THAT was what those two women were about to come to blows over, Hello. Since my cousin was no longer able to direct his resources to either of them, and since he didn’t leave a Will, there was uncertainty as to what would happen next. A very similar scenario broke out at my dad’s funeral; his first wife, not my mom, came outta nowhere to lay claim on his pension, and my mom had to fight it in court. She won.

    Holla back

    Salaam
    Mu

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  159. It’s no longer good enough to just have kids, but they have to be best and brightest, otherwise, it’s kinda pointless unless one really loves children in general.

    That’s a fucking sick attitude. Parents who make their children feel unloved unless they succeed at being “the best and the brightest” are a recipe for disaster.

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  160. Mu, about that floor of attractiveness thing…what exactly is a woman supposed to do when not much is particularly wrong with her, but she’s not what guys are socially conditioned to find attractive?

    The problem, as I see it, Mu and Whiskey, is not that a fit, goodlooking, intelligent man can’t get a date. It’s that he refuses to date the women who are available to him, or brings a knife to a gunfight.

    Guys with a little money feel that they’re entitled to the kind of woman that like their car or other possessions, is a status trophy. Now, I don’t have a problem if that’s what someone really wants, but if it is, there’s a way to get it, and a way not to get it.

    You don’t get a good whore by being romantic. You get a whore by offering material reward. You don’t need game for a whore. You just need to be conspicuous about your income. So you station yourself where gold diggers of your corresponding status shop for suckers, and pick the one that suits you.

    Play naive and say stuff like you don’t believe in prenuptual agreements.

    …but this of course doesn’t match the Hollywood dream. The dream is that you should be able to find a woman who looks like a gold digger, but has a heart of gold.

    A good bit of my income is gained from helping people to nurture and maintain their natural beauty. There are many of them, and I’ve found that in dating, they kind of stick to their own because others either overlook them or have weird reactions to the raw power of it.

    There are LOTS of natural beauties in L.A. and surrounding areas. Long Beach has one of my favorite Rasta shops. The natural girls would love to meet a guy with a brain on him, because these women usually have a brain on them. They’re often small businesswomen selling macrame beaded necklaces and scented oils to the Barbies who want a little taste of the the power of the inner goddess.

    …and guys who aren’t into that scene themselves just overlook them.

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  161. You don’t get magically ugly because you work in IT, it is the negative image of being “smart” that women object to (women hate intelligence in men unless it’s masked with high-testosterone aggressiveness).

    Bullshit. I don’t think women hate intelligence. Intelligence has a small positive effect on male attractiveness.

    What they don’t find appealing is a guy whose type of intelligence is object oriented as opposed to social intelligence. Such men are more likely to have no game than those more naturally socially oriented, overall level of intelligence being equal. I have a friend who’s had a five year dry spell by now, having been in two LTRs with decent looking girls earlier. He’s in his early thirties, good looking, in great shape, and not even a wimp by any measure (he has no social phobias, low self-esteem, or any issues like that). His only problem is his introversion, certain social naivete, and lack of game. This friend of mine is a monomaniac and a top level software engineer. If he put his mind into studying game for a year or two, he’d probably land a wife fairly quickly.

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  162. Nicole,
    What you bring up is a pickle, I don’t deny it. Don’t have many answers but I’ll try to entertain your questions as best I can.
    I think it can be said that the standard for beauty is different depending on the man you talk to; in the broadest possible terms, White men have a differing standard than do Black men. That’s bleedingly obvious. So the chances of a Black Rasta looking woman finding love with a White guy, particularly of the Roissy or even Whiskey sort, are very long indeed.

    Having said that, and I by no means am I trying to speak for all or even a few Black men, personally I am not attracted to the kind of “Rasta” women you described. Women w/dreds don’t appeal to me sexually. They just don’t. I have been and continue to be quite friendly with a number of such women over the years, but NOTHING CAN HAPPEN in a sexual sense, because I am not attracted to them.

    Period.

    I’m not sure, but perhaps other men may feel the same way.

    Having said that, again, speaking only for myself, I don’t find the next First Lady of the USA to be attractive AT ALL either, Michelle Obama. To me, she looks too mannish.

    My point is that physical beauty matters to Men, although there is a real debate as to exactly what that is. As for guys having an entitlement complex, well, yeah. Men are always motivated by higher levels of Beauty, and as I’ve said earlier in this thread, there are risks and rewards that come with it.

    I simply do not know if the Media/Porn has so twisted or altered Men’s minds to such an extent that they approach the world in a David Alexander type fashion; my gut instinct would be “No” based on the current stats wrt overweight American women and the fact that we’re virtually the only First World nation that keeps apace w/replacement levels of reproduction. Somebody’s gettin’ the fat chicks pregnant. Everybody ain’t doin’ IVF. So, this is an interesting situation to observe and study. Again I don’t have any answers, at least not yet, but it is very interesting.

    As for Golddiggers, they are easily dealt with. I’ve dismissed quite a few.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  163. “Bullshit. I don’t think women hate intelligence. Intelligence has a small positive effect on male attractiveness.

    What they don’t find appealing is a guy whose type of intelligence is object oriented as opposed to social intelligence.”

    Very true. If a guy lacks social intelligence he should work on it to find a woman, just as a woman must work on her appearance. No one is obligated to love you and if it means changing your look or learning to be more socially oriented you should do it. Also, Whiskey I’d add that it might behoove such men to get out of LA and go somewhere less shallow where women are likelier to appreciate smart men.

    “The reason is simple, because Men are for the most part, too visually stimulated for it to work in a broad based way. Sure, Media and “Pornification” play a role, but it ain’t like Cinderella’s homely sisters had guys beating a path to their door”

    Why is men’s obsession with looks forgivable while women’s obsession with game deplorable? I agree that spurned women rarely kill, but even if women had no opportunity to hook up with bad boys and every man thus had his shot at getting a wife there’d only be so many beautiful women to go around and we’d be back where we started. I don’t doubt that sexual competition is a cause of violence among men who are already inclined towards violence but I really don’t believe it is the main motivator.

    In, the 1950s, a decade many conservatives look back to fondly for the low-crime and stable families most men didn’t marry beauty queens; they married girls who were their equals, more or less, in attractiveness. Not having a shot with beautiful women didn’t motivate them to kill other men. If they were unhappy in their marriages they tended to be violent toward their wives, not other men.

    “It’s no longer good enough to just have kids, but they have to be best and brightest, otherwise, it’s kinda pointless unless one really loves children in general.”

    That’s a horrible attitude to have toward your kids, but it’s also the attitude people have towards lovers, spouses and even friends. THAT’S the real reason for mate shortages, although beauty/game shortcomings do indeed exist.

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  164. — the SCA’s could not reasonably be expected to stand, as they were physically exhausted from a da spent shuffling papers,

    I don’t understand this need to have a seat on the train. I too work at a desk, and I rarely feel the need to sit on train. I’m a physically fit under-40 guy, so maybe I’ll sing a different song in 15 years, I dunno.

    But in fact, as I noted earlier, I prefer to stand on the train because if I have a window seat, it means that a fat person will spill into my space — no escape for me! And in an aisle seat, I’ll have some dude’s ass next to my face.

    Anyway, sitting usually keeps you closer to a loud gum-chewer making gross smacking sounds, or someone’s loud, rhythmic iPod noise.

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  165. DA, Peter – one thing you don’t have to deal with on your NYC commuter trains is that special breed that you find only in DC – the Federal Government Employee.

    It doesn’t matter what race he or she is – they look like they’re all related to each other. And not in a good way.

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  166. Wow, best comment thread I’ve ever read. Hats off to Mu for hitting the nail on the head repeatedly. And the comments by Whiskey and Vladimir have been outstanding as well.
    On the topic of spurned betas taking out their frustrations on society, it seems to me the most likely prospect, at least among “tame” middle-class whites, is not so much violence or organized political resistance, but rather a kind of passive-aggressive apathy–a general turning away from participation in society, an unwillingness to pay the most basic social dues we have come to take for granted. While such men may not instigate violence themselves, will they intervene to stop violence against women, say, or even be willing to act as witnesses or testify in court? I doubt it. And it’s more than just cowardice or “softness”. When people come to feel that they don’t have a stake in existing social arrangements, they take a perverse satisfaction in seeing others suffer and want to get their revenge the safe way, by standing by while everything goes to hell. As Whiskey has pointed out, without the broad-based cooperation of the masses of common men, the relatively safe, prosperous world we take for granted would unravel.

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  167. The beta has only himself to blame here, unfortunately.

    It’s true that women are hypergamous – ‘whores for the highest bidder,’ so to speak, and will stray for the current ‘better catch’, whoever that may be.

    Geoffrey Miller calls this a logical tradeoff. And I agree. It’s hard to fault a woman who is stuck with a beta to seek alpha genes for offspring.

    As a man, I obviously dont like it.

    But, ultimately, when it happens, the beta husband, or the beta boyfriend, has to take the blame.

    If a man has enough gravity, he’ll hold his woman in his forcefield so to speak – keeps her from straying.

    There are exceptions: There are probably women at the high end of the spectrum – 9’s and 10’s – that have such a complete package that NO man anywhere can control them.

    But even here – even with these 9 -10’s – their power has a certain window – they are very attractive for only about 10 or 12 years (say from age 21 to 35).

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  168. When people come to feel that they don’t have a stake in existing social arrangements, they take a perverse satisfaction in seeing others suffer and want to get their revenge the safe way, by standing by while everything goes to hell.

    Contempt and beggary hangs upon thy back;
    The world is not thy friend nor the world’s law;
    The world affords no law to make thee rich;
    Then be not poor, but break it […].

    – Romeo and Juliet, Act V.

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  169. I came up with 39 matches on the word “society”.

    For example, we are sitting here, two thousand people. You can think of it as a society, as a community. But what is society? What is community? There are two thousand individuals sitting here. You will never come across society anywhere; you will never meet the community. Whenever you come across anything, you will come across the real individual.

    Society is only a word–and a very dangerous word. For example, “humanity”. Now I have never seen humanity; I have only seen human beings. Humanity is just an abstraction. But there are people who love humanity. You cannot hug humanity, you cannot kiss humanity. But that becomes a very very subtle camouflage. In the name of humanity you go on hating human beings–because you love humanity; there is no need to love human beings because you love humanity.

    And if the need arises, you can sacrifice all human beings for your love of humanity. That has been done again and again: people love nations, and the people kill people in the name of “nation”. In the name of “motherland”, “fatherland” – stupid words – but in the name of “motherland” thousands of people can be killed very easily.

    The real is sacrificed on the altar of the abstract.

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  170. By posture and facial expression, I’d say beta on the left and alpha on the right.

    Moving on to the discussion;

    Mu – You’re in or around Philly? Interesting, I’m from that area (moved back recently) and I wonder where in Philly you’re referring to. Not disagreeing, either, just curious.

    A thought about intelligence and the floor of attractiveness that occurred to me as I was reading this: The floor of attractiveness is lower at the ends of the intelligence bell curve, for differing reasons. The left end are responding to pheremones, not details. The right end, especially those who are abstract thinkers, probably aren’t in the moment anyhow; in the privacy of their own head they may be doing the 10 down the street. As a corrolary, both ends of the bell curve tend to dip down in attractiveness over generations.

    Regarding intelligence and social intelligence women in general do seem to hate intelligence. Part of social intelligence for a high IQ male is to act dumber than you are. Check Roissy’s dating value chart for men; if anything I think he underestimates the negative effect of very high IQ on dating value.

    From personal experience, with few exceptions I have to deliberately ‘dumb down’ my vocabulary to get inital interest. Those few exceptions were themselves up in the 130 plus IQ range. A note on this: when I did (I’m married now and Mu is right about oaths) ‘dumb things down’ I never failed to get whatever I was aiming at.

    Actually, those exceptions make for an interesting hypothetical counterpoint to Roissy’s valuation rules; the further you vary from your target, the lower your value. In other words, a woman with a 150 IQ judging men by Roissy’s value chart would bump the IQ range for ‘+1 point’ up to 160-180. Since 100 IQ is average, his rule and numbers hold true for the average person in the population. Of course, that would produce relative values, not absolute ones, but personal satisfaction is generally acheived by relative values, not absolute ones.

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  171. the guy the whore woman had been dating he looks very familiar in the face ( to the guy married to the inbred sow in Roissy’s post with the wedding photos….) wow. beta facial feature rise to prominence again. you can bet the whore was cheating on that sap in the military uniform too. (only when she was drunk tho’)…..besides, the guy on the right walks with a thousand yard stare, the man on the left is clearly showing angst (uber beta even if he was caught ragging some chick far less attractive than his wife who will probably clean him out in alimony payments). the guy on the left is the beta cuckolded hubby.

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  172. Hi Kenny,
    Yup, Philly born and raised; came of age in the Heart of North Philly, but either lived or worked or operated in just about every major part of the City. Philly’s in my blood, my DNA. No matter where I go, and I’ve been around some, it will always be Home.

    I was just thinking about another instance of what I was speaking of earlier…

    Back in the 80s and early 90s I was a Hip Hop DJ; had my own little rap group and everything. We did al kinds of parties on the weekend, and shared the bill with some of the hottest acts of the time locally.

    Back in about 1985 or so, I went to a house party in the Projects; I wasn’t doing the party myself, but was invited by the DJ and his crew. I learned pretty quick that being a “somebody”, like a jock or in my case what they now call a “Turntablist” definitely got you further w/the Honies than if you were just a, in Roissy’s words, “Herb”.

    I had borrowed my older brother’s goose down skiing jacket-Gerry was the brand, and was all the rage at the time-and it was about two sizes too big. That came in handy.

    Because when I was at the party, I had spotted a fine chick from accross the room. I stepped up front and started to kick it. 30 seconds later we’re slowdragging, when I see the crowd part like the Red Sea; a lowbrow type was headed right for me.

    As it turned out, I was dancing with his girl, although she didn’t tell ME that; and by the way he was beefin’, and her silence, I figured it had to be true.

    I called myself trying to finesse my way out of what looked like to be certain confrontation, when for a split second, almost in slo-mo, I saw dude take a swing at me; but instead of a punch it was the glint of metal flashing in the low lighting that was emblematic of house parties back then, and it was off to my left. Just then I felt something digging into my left sleeve.

    I jumped back and at the same time took a wild swing, which connected in dude’s face, and with that I bolted straight for the door.

    I hauled ass until I was out of the PJs and about a quarter mile out before the adrenaline gave out and I finally slowed down. One of my homies had noticed my left arm and called my attention to it. It was slashed completely open.

    Not my arm, but my brother’s jacket. Had it been my size I would’ve needed a lot of stiches in my bicep.

    Back then, circa 1985, guns weren’t as available as they are now, or even a few years later. So what most guys used were knives, baseball bats, or the old hiking boots w/the steel toes. I done saw many a man get stomped to within an inch of his life by a gang of guys.

    Quite naturally, I didn’t go to ANY more house parties in the PJs, LOL. Only those in the better parts of town, and/or the big ballroom style venues, that sort of thing. But even those weren’t immune.

    Because in 1986 or so, new menacing technology hit the streets-the Glock 9mm. And soon after, the Tek-9mm. Both of which could put up a wall of lead. A byproduct of the Crack Era and soon thereafter, the vicious Crack Wars that took place in cities like NYC and LA. Here in Philly, an outfit called the Junior Black Mafia held sway. Anyway, Tupac got peppered w/such a weapon, twice, for example. The second time took him out.

    Guys started coming to parties w/these weapons, and there were almost always somebody getting shot. And to a man, you can be sure who did the shooting-either a guy trying to save his honor/”girl”, or, a guy who wasn’t gettin’ any girls to begin with. In fact, you always knew, before the party even started, who was gonna end up being trouble, because those were the guys who never got any honies.

    I’ve lost several good friends in such a manner.

    Again, just noting the very real downsides of Game, y’all. I embrace it with due criticism.

    Kenny, it is well documented that past a certain point/number, having a high IQ is ctually a detriment to a Man hooking up with the Choice Females.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  173. to Higher Power – those 9 and 10’s you speak of are controllable…. they flaunt men who bask in their appearance and self-placed faux pedestal. their predisposition to lower self-esteem (as they are 9’s and 10’s) makes them vulnerable to control, always. the black lung of their profession/place at the upper echelons as the most gorgeous women…..guys cheat on women like Halle Berry and Denice Richardson, and Carmen Electra. NO matter how hot the woman, a true Alpha can keep them not only in check, but also willing to tolerate all kinds of abuse, both emotional/physical, and/or his willingness to carouse with other females.

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  174. Kenny, it is well documented that past a certain point/number, having a high IQ is ctually a detriment to a Man hooking up with the Choice Females.

    What is this number and where is the documentation?

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  175. Affe
    ““David Alexander” is one of the great cultural creations of the internet age, as far as I’m concerned.”

    Action figure available, complete with oversize jacking arm and refillable splooge reservoir. Realistic commuter railcar and commemorative metrocards sold separately

    DEAD

    *goes to looks for coffin to rest in*

    😆

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  176. …. and yet no one has seen DA and Tupac Chopra in the same room.

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  177. DA saidIt’s interesting to note how Vladimir picked up on why I don’t bother, but other people that I discuss the issue with in the real world are either angry at me or unable to understand my preferences
    Ha
    I’ve been there. It seems like whenever I tell a guy that I’m not interested in having a boyfriend, they become angry. If they ask why, I tell them I don’t really want to bothered with having to worry about another person. Having another person monitor my movements, tell me what to do, or give unwanted advice are things I want to avoid for the present.
    Women often tell me to not have children or if I do, to have only one. Men on the other hand, seem to become upset or offended when I mention that I don’t want to have any children. Then they usually give me a list of reasons why I should have children.

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  178. MU-Under the “old rules” in the West every guy had a shot at getting a gal, and here I must disagree respectively w/Vladimir: being able to score a 3 or 4 just ain’t gonna get it. The reason is simple, because Men are for the most part, too visually stimulated for it to work in a broad based way
    Well, if a large number of women are below 5(30%) then there will have to be a group of men who lowers their standards if they want a wife.

    Whiskey saidYou don’t get magically ugly because you work in IT, it is the negative image of being “smart” that women object to (women hate intelligence in men unless it’s masked with high-testosterone aggressiveness).

    I think it has more to do with men who have high IQs being socially awkward sometimes spectrum.

    Like in West Africa — the men just laze around and stage raids or violence of one form or another, the women do all the work in the field
    Whiskey, the men don’t just laze around while the women do all of the work. West African women control a large portion of the income because they control the market(farmers/flea). Actually Whiskey, colonialism changed the division of labor in West Africa.

    Whiskey said Men and women are living, largely unconnected lives.
    I agree but I think for most of human existence men and women have sort of lived separately.
    Without marriage to tie them together why do men care about women?,/i>
    This is a good question Whiskey. I would think having a mother and sister would be enough to make women care about men.

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  179. Mu says, “I simply do not know if the Media/Porn has so twisted or altered Men’s minds to such an extent that they approach the world in a David Alexander type fashion;”

    At the point that people of a different “race” are more attracted to the natural beauty of women in your own than you are, you’re skirting DAville.

    When around other natural women, I sometimes feel like I stand out for being fat. Indeed, I’m sure if it weren’t for the health problems, I wouldn’t be, and I’d probably also have less muscle mass because it is difficult to maintain on a mostly vegan diet.

    One of the things that did help me to lose weight was switching to an African and Native American diet. I splurge here and there, but generally it’s non wheat grains, veggies, and beans on a combination warrior/nomad schedule. We actually have mailing lists about this sort of thing.

    Natural women are expontentially less likely to be grossly overweight. I haven’t met one yet. The ones who are fat but not tremendously so, usually have reasons like me, or are at the beginning of the transition, and haven’t gotten to the 4+ hours per day of manual labor/mild to moderate activity phase of the process.

    Weight above or below reasonable limits is a decisive issue for men outside the U.S. and I’d venture most men in the U.S. even though they favor the lower range of that. Nappy hair is usually an issue for Black men, but not so much for White or middle eastern men, in my observation. Even many Asians like curly/natty hair.

    So if dreadlocks have the power to stop a brotha cold, then in my opinion, he’s colorstruck. He should try looking in a mirror, and considering what it would be like to spend their life with a woman with cicatrical or traction alopecia.

    A good part of what looks mannish about Mrs. Obama is the eaten up hairline.

    The bit that baffles me about this whole men not being able to find dates thing is that the women who embody the traits they *say* they like…confidence, sexual openmindedness balananced by extreme loyalty, honor, trustworthyness, and pure beauty that doesn’t require paint but can be playfully ornamented with it, are overlooked.

    …much the same way these same guys who call themselves “nice” are overlooked.

    You’re not being overlooked. You’re being small. Women don’t like childish, insipid wimps who can’t get an erection for someone who hasn’t sufficiently disfigured herself to conform.

    Well, some women do, but those women will cheat on you when someone with more status/money gives them a little attention.

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  180. Nicole, I don’t have locks but I’m natural. Some days I style my hair straight and other days I don’t press it. I get attention form all types of men but I seem to get more attention form non black men on days when my hair is not straightened.

    btw, I don’t wear weaves or wigs.

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  181. hello:

    Vlad,
    I agree with most of the rest of your commentary on the West, and I think it doesn’t bode well for us that constructive patriarchy is in it’s death rattle.

    http://www.newamerica.net/publications/articles/2006/the_return_of_patriarchy

    An interesting article, but its conclusion critically rests on the assumption that children of conservative people will be more influenced by the values and ideas of their parents than by the media, pop-culture, education, and the examples of their non-conservative peers. Based on what I’ve seen in real life, it’s a very shaky assumption.

    Also, the parallels with the ancient world are tendentious. We simply don’t have good enough written sources from the antiquity to draw any such conclusions reliably. You can easily justify just about any ideological point by cherry-picking convenient analogies from ancient Greece and Rome.

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  182. Its hard to be a Blood or a Crip while also being married w/a gaggle of kids.

    Given that your average gang member joins in his tweens and teens, how does marriage prevent one from becoming a Blood or Crip when the recruiting ages are too young for marriage, and are probably unwilling to give up gang life to go become a “punk” beta male with a wife and kids?

    That’s a fucking sick attitude. Parents who make their children feel unloved unless they succeed at being “the best and the brightest” are a recipe for disaster.

    In the long-term it will create problems, but given how hyper competitive our world is along with the amount of resources needed to raise children and the opportunity costs of doing so, it’s no wonder why parents only want only the best and brightest.

    but I seem to get more attention form non black men on days when my hair is not straightened

    My opinion is less valueable than a CDO backed by subprime mortgages, but I’ve never found “natural” hair on black women to be sexually attractive. I hate cornrows, and unlike some men, I don’t make fun of women who have weaves or wigs, especially if it enhances their beauty and sexual appeal. I don’t care if it’s fake, as long as it helps you look better.

    So, Nicole, the “natural girls” (regardless of race) may have a whole host of positive characteristics, but they just don’t induce any sexual attraction from me.

    You can easily justify just about any ideological point by cherry-picking convenient analogies from ancient Greece and Rome.

    Vladimir is a smart man of wise words. 🙂

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  183. David Alexander:

    It’s interesting to note how Vladimir picked up on why I don’t bother, but other people that I discuss the issue with in the real world are either angry at me or unable to understand my preferences.

    You piss people off (myself included) because you keep bitching and complaining about your situation and soliciting pity and compassion, but when people give you reasonable, well-intended practical advice on how to fix things, you respond with streams of lame excuses that basically say: “I’m too lazy to get off my ass and do something with my life, so I’ll just keep whining.”

    And now, with this post, you decided to take things to a new level and start whining about people’s reactions to your whining. “Oh not only am I so miserable, but also people get angry at me when I whine about it! Oh pooooor meeee waah waah…”

    Michael Blowhard:

    “David Alexander” is one of the great cultural creations of the internet age, as far as I’m concerned.

    When reading his posts, I have a feeling as if some minor character from a Houellebecq novel sprang to life.

    On second thought, not even Houellebecq is so inventive.

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  184. came of age in the Heart of North Philly

    Weird Note: I’ve yet to venture on to the Broad Street Subway, but I’ve been on the MFL and fooled around on the trolleys on Rt 11…

    David Alexander is a sweetie and if he’d met me when I was a naive college student he probably would have been able to get some sex out of my misguided maternalism.

    I’m not a sweetie, and I’d imagine that your attempts to court me would be rebuffed by paranoia based on why any girl would want to bother having sex with me. In other words, I’d presume that you were crazy, drunk/high, low ranking and trashy, a single mom, or looking for a potential beta provider after being pumped and dumped.

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  185. soliciting pity and compassion

    If I wanted pity and compassion, I’d be running to chubby white girls begging for pity hugs. This place can never fill this need.

    well-intended practical advice on how to fix things, you respond with streams of lame excuses

    I believe I once said that the only way to fix things is to build a time machine. 🙂

    Seriously, I have to finish college first and then get a good (career) job, and then we can begin on the other stuff.

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  186. “So, Nicole, the “natural girls” (regardless of race) may have a whole host of positive characteristics, but they just don’t induce any sexual attraction from me.”

    Since natural women are mostly independent thinkers or trying to be, lack of attraction from porn addicts would seem like “mission accomplished”.

    Everyone here says basically that whatever ideals one may have, when it comes to actually mating with someone, people like what they like and don’t what they don’t…but I’m not sure that most who say that truly understand what they are saying.

    No matter how model perfect a woman is, so long as she tows the line of conformity, she will never have the sort of beauty that shocks people out of their comfort zone. She will never be so attractive that men convinced that all they want from her is sex, will drive hundreds of miles, endure immigration authorities, and pass scores of more conventionally beautiful yet inexpensive whores, just for a few hours in her presence without even the guarantee of the sex.

    When she is 38, if she’s single, she’ll maybe get pumped and dumped repeatedly by younger men, but none of them will stick around unless there’s some material gain in it.

    …but even earlier than that, when she’s still at her peak supposedly in her mid 20’s, her husband will be regularly shagging or trying to shag someone who looks like me.

    I wish I could show you all photos of the wives of my wannabe bitches.

    These women, and women doing their best to look like them, are fools…worse, not even great fools. They’re common fools, and yes, tools.

    A true, classic beauty is a wonder. I wouldn’t give up what little of it that I have for the admiration of millions of wusses.

    Natural beauty means less mass appeal, for certain, but the reward is extremely intense niche appeal…and that goes for both Omfofo of the South and Helga of the North. Exceptional men love an exceptional beauty. Common men love common beauty.

    …and Clio, good on you for going the pressing route instead of the chemicals. I used to use relaxers maybe because my mom was lazy and I didn’t know any better, but then I discovered one day while blowdrying, that a blow-out did the job perfectly without damaging my hair.

    I have learned, for the sake of people who do use the chemicals though, that there is a way to go about it that will minimize the damage. Just don’t use heat on it afterwards for a couple of weeks. How many people do that though?

    It’s the difference between how a person interested in beauty and a person obsessed with conformity will handle the same situation. The real beauty expert texturizes to the point of almost straight, then sends them home with waves for two weeks. The obsessive has to give them straight hair then and there.

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  187. “children of conservative people will be more influenced by the values and ideas of their parents than by the media, pop-culture, education, and the examples of their non-conservative peers.”

    Education: If more and more children come from very conservative homes education will reflect that. Parents will either home-school their kids or send them to private schools.

    Non-conservative peers: Many evangelical rightwing parents vet their children’s friends carefully and keep them from associating with nogoodniks. This doesn’t always work but it is surprisingly easy to do since there’s a huge subculture of “Christian” schools, clubs etc. that are more comfortable for very religious people. Of course sans sex ed. these kids often get pregnant and have shotgun weddings anyway a la Bristol Palin. Speaking of whom, why haven’t we heard about her wedding date yet?

    Media/pop culture: Pop culture will ultimately reflect the market. Blacks and Hispanics were once virtually unknown in gossip mags and TV. Now they’re everywhere. If the population changes, and that’s a big if, pop culture will change to reflect it.

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  188. “I’m not a sweetie, and I’d imagine that your attempts to court me would be rebuffed by paranoia based on why any girl would want to bother having sex with me. In other words, I’d presume that you were crazy, drunk/high, low ranking and trashy, a single mom, or looking for a potential beta provider after being pumped and dumped.”

    In this particular situation the guy pursued me for ostensible comfort after getting dumped and I never courted him. Nicole, I think DA wants to be tied up.

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  189. ‘Since natural women are mostly independent thinkers or trying to be, lack of attraction from porn addicts would seem like “mission accomplished…”.’

    Lovely post Nicole; not a word wasted.

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  190. Vladimir, sometimes I think David’s whining is cautionary, and sometimes humorous. I may disagree with him, but I can’t really knock his lifestyle choice.

    Some people are happy being somewhat self contained. It isn’t a crime, and he’s not really harming anyone, maybe not even himself.

    The world is not being deprived of anything because of his choices. In fact, by opting out of a game that for him, would be dishonest, he is doing womankind a service.

    I’ve had a boyfriend in the past who would have done better to just stay at home and not inflict his fake affection on others. I told him this flat out, when he announced that he was disqualifying me because of something he knew about me from the beginning. The whole relationship at that point, was revealed to be a lie…something he was only doing I suppose because his family may have worried that he was Gay or something.

    I would pay the inventor of a time machine and teleportation device whatever I had for him to send David to the moment before this guy met me, to talk some sense into him and tell him that it’s better to wank in front of the computer, than to place his balls on my ego chopping block.

    …but alas, he made the wrong choice, and so I had to be the one to tell him after the fact that I felt like I’d just discovered that I’d done the equivalent of bathing in raw sewage every time he touched me.

    Better for guys who want a porn fantasy or otherwise need to save themselves for someone socially or psychologically convenient, to stick to porn and not venture out into the world. The wanking guy is still ethically pure in that way. The guy who goes out and tries to use women he doesn’t even like is a devil.

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  191. Lovely post Nicole; not a word wasted.

    Said women may be a waste of sex partner for porn addicts like myself, but from time to time, they’re great for platonic activities if one has the tolerance for alternative points of view and living.

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  192. “I’ve had a boyfriend in the past who would have done better to just stay at home and not inflict his fake affection on others.”

    There are many such men who should, Russian style, simply seek out a prostitute.

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  193. Indeed, David. There are many guys I would despise as romantic partners, but who I’d be glad to have a beer with. 🙂

    Actually, I have a friend like that. He’s not a porn addict, just not really my type, and I’m not his type. We had a kind of mild flirtation for awhile, but mutually decided that since it would be just a shag for both of us, that was better avoided, because neither of us is really the gas-n-go sort.

    I mean, he would, but only with a prostitute, and as he said, he doesn’t see me that way. So we’re attracted in some ways, but we know a romantic relationship would probably just…not happen.

    We’re good friends though…of the sort who have each other’s backs in occasional problems with arsim (chavs), and enjoy the time we spend together. He also helps me to filter. If a guy doesn’t want to meet Longstroke (his nickname), he’s probably not got the best intentions.

    The platonic male friend (voluntary friend, not doomed to the friend zone consolation prize friend) doesn’t have to be like absolutely indifferent to a woman’s love life. He can be a major influence on it. Not all of us have older brothers living nearby.

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  194. There are many such men who should, Russian style, simply seek out a prostitute.

    Your average beta is simply too scared for peruse prostitutes for legal and health reasons, and they’re much too guilty to impose themselves on women in that fashion. Admittedly, they’re my reasons for avoiding prostitutes along with the high costs and lack of guarantee of these women meeting my fetishes.

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  195. David, maybe live porn wouldn’t be a bad idea…strippers with high heels and acrylic nails giving a good show without having to actually do sex.

    There are many ways to get the job done.

    You might be able to find exhibitionists who would do this for free, and get off on guys wanting them but not being able to touch them.

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  196. whiskey:

    I’m in the LA area. The IT guys are all decently attractive, fit, in shape. They cannot get dates.

    Any man who is “decently attractive, fit, in shape” can easily make a killing among girls below a certain threshold of attractiveness, even if he has zero game. However, he might find girls below this threshold invisible or even actively repulsive. Trouble is, this is how more attractive girls will find him in turn.

    Meanwhile if there was widespread guys sitting out in favor of pr0n, there would be lots of women in the middle attractiveness range complaining they had no boyfriends or dates. This is not the case. The complaint of women, is that past 30 or so they must LOWER their standards because they can’t pull in the same quality guy they did before.

    Your logic is faulty. Among girls at all levels of attractiveness, there are indeed many who have delusionally high standards, so there would really be a shortage of women if all men were willing to take whatever they can realistically get. But in reality, the lowest classes of girls are below nearly everyone’s radar, even for many of the least attractive guys. And guess what — they really have lots of trouble finding boyfriends and dates. (Even many guys who could realistically get mid-range girls are wasting their time ineptly chasing those in the 7+ range, where there really is cutthroat competition.)

    The difference between the experiences of women and men who stick to unrealistic standards is that the former have the option of getting pumped and dumped, while the latter remain alone. But even bottom-of-the-barrel guys are not doomed to stay single if they’re willing to date equally unattractive girls.

    You don’t get magically ugly because you work in IT, it is the negative image of being “smart” that women object to (women hate intelligence in men unless it’s masked with high-testosterone aggressiveness).

    Oh, come on, Whiskey. You’re descending into delusions that sound like a cross between DA-style self-pity and a bastard mirror-image of angry feminist fantasies.

    How about me? My IQ is well over 130, my job title makes a typical IT position sound like James Bond in comparison, and I’ve always had a wide range of intellectual interests outside of school and work. I don’t try to mask any of this, and I’m cultured, polite, and a gentleman (or at any rate, always trying to be such). Yet, girls find me quite attractive, and I have a hot girlfriend to prove it. According to your theories, I shouldn’t exist, and neither should any of my friends to whom similar descriptions apply.

    It is true that in North American culture, there’s a stereotype that smart people are nerds, especially those who work in technical professions. However, with actual nerds, it’s not their intelligence that repulses women, but their lack of other attractive manly attributes, either physical or intellectual. Smart men who don’t suffer from nerdiness have no problem getting girls, regardless of whether they are what you call “high-testosterone aggressive” types. (Neither do nerds, for that matter, if they’re just willing to go for realistic targets.)

    But here is the issue: women want a high-tax environment for childcare, government as daddy, bad boys galore. Men need a low tax environment for either bling or diversions, they don’t care about kids who are probably not theirs. There are votes there for the taking because of the fundamental conflict of interests between men and women. […] Oh yes, the votes will be there, and someone will figure out the coalition: married people + single men > single women, Blacks, Hispanics, Gays. Single women already voted Obama 70-29, so there is no risk in running against them just as their block vote allows a coalition to write them off.

    Dream on. A hard fact of political life is that women voters are much more attracted to gender identity politics than men, and any sort of men’s rights ideology would be a political million-volt third rail. Each male vote that you might get by sending out a pro-male message would be offset by the loss of votes of ten women and three PC-inclined men. Even a woman politician would never be able to pull it off.

    Ask yourself: how would these Californian IT nerds in whose name you’re complaining react if you actually started preaching your politics among them? Making a disciplined voting block out of the left side of your equation is a pipe dream. (By the way, since when do the “married people” and “single men” categories exclude all Blacks and Hispanics?! Silly slips like this one make me think that your theories might be a way of rationalizing and sugar-coating ideological passions of a different sort.)

    I don’t think there will be upheaval i.e. riots in the streets around the corner, but profound social changes that leave women on their own and a falling apart very quickly of male cooperation.

    What exactly do you mean by “falling apart of male cooperation” and “leaving women on their own”? That the nerds will desert their corporate and government workplaces and stop paying taxes? I don’t see it happening in reality.

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  197. My (female) cousin has been begging me to go with her to strip clubs in Jersey, but I’ve found strippers to be pointless because they build up one’s sexual desire, but you can’t fuck them.

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  198. David, you can’t shag a television screen either…but at least the live girl can run her acrylic nails across your chest while you’re wanking.

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  199. David, you can’t shag a television screen either…but at least the live girl can run her acrylic nails across your chest while you’re wanking.

    With porn, I’m watching her perform sex acts where I’m imagining myself as the recipient of such acts. Stripping just means that she’s dancing around me which isn’t exactly the same thing…

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  200. realistically get mid-range girls are wasting their time ineptly chasing those in the 7+ range

    Why chase mid-range girls that reinforce one’s low status when one trick themselves into believing that they’re capable attracting hot women and of high status? In other words, is it better to live in the delusion or to deal with the cold, harsh reality of average looking, non-ugly women?

    if they’re just willing to go for realistic targets

    That’s why I opted out. After being realistic about what I could get on the market, I decided to turn to porn. When I finish college and become established in a career, then maybe my options will improve.

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  201. The big reason why you’re unlikely to see a real male political identity movement focusing on issues that lead to sexual loserdom is that being associated with them will be taken as evidence of sexual loserdom. Most straight men would rather publically support a gay rights organization than a beta rights organization.

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  202. jaakkeli:

    The big reason why you’re unlikely to see a real male political identity movement focusing on issues that lead to sexual loserdom is that being associated with them will be taken as evidence of sexual loserdom. Most straight men would rather publically support a gay rights organization than a beta rights organization.

    That’s undoubtedly true, but I had in mind the whole host of issues where it’s politically suicidal to oppose the feminist orthodoxy. I’m not going to get into an analysis of why this is so, but it’s definitely much easier to get women to rail around an issue of gender solidarity, even if the issue is such that men could even boost their manly credentials by standing up for the other side. A good historical example is the temperance movement and alcohol prohibition in North America.

    But in any case, sexual losers who imagine that under a different regime, they would all get to marry at worst cute sixes are completely deluded.

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  203. Wow! A lot to comment on, but I’d like to start off with Nicole’s comments in reply to mine earlier.

    Nicole, Michelle Obama’s hairline has NOTHING to do with why I find her extremely unattractive. It has everything to do with the fact that she looks too manly for me. I like a woman with lighter skin, softer features and a womanly form. MO has NONE of that. She elicits no feelings of arousal from me in the least. Period.

    As for the notion that I or any other Black man is “colorstruck” if they don’t like a Whoopie Goldberg hairstyle on a woman, I would say that such a view is the Sour Grapes position of one who is deemed not to be desirable. And if there are so many White and Asian men who find such a thing to be so hot, the Interracial Marriage and even Dating rates in this regard would reflect that; by all accounts, they do NOT.

    Last year at this time I attended a combination Holiday/Engagement Party for a ladyfriend who has the same kind of style you have, not just hair but overall, as I’ve checked out your site. Many women were there, quite a few w/the dreds happening. Several were complaining that they couldn’t get dates, and most of the guys didn’t say anything. But, Mu being Mu (Sagittarius all day, everyday), decided to go where no man had gone before, and simply blurted out, Brothas by and large don’t find sistas with dreds sexually desirable. If you want more dates, think about changing up the hairstyle. Period.

    Oh, the howls of derision were so loud I thought the cops were gonna come knockin’. I heard it all: “brainwashed”, racism, sexism, and of course that dreaded M word-Misogyny. And of course great pains where taken to point out, that the hostess and guest of honor herself, a proud owner of a head full of dreds, was proof positive that not all Black men agreed with me.

    My response was simple-there was another sista in attendance who was on the lighter skinned side and had the conventional relaxed hair look, very attractive. She and a few other sistas were in the kitchen while the dredheads were in the front room. Guess where all the guys were? I simply pointed this out and the room fell silent as if someone had scratched the needle accross a record.

    I don’t knock nobody for whatever it is that turns them on, but DA is right about one thing: in the extremely competitive world that is Porn, there’s a real simple reason why you DO NOT, N O T, see women of any color, doing the dredlock thing:

    ITS BECAUSE MEN DON’T FIND IT SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE.

    Period. Believe me, if Men liked it we’d see more of it, especially in venues where it counts, like Porn, because its where there is an actual and direct payoff for such things.

    The party I attended last year was a powerful example of just how important and impactful the Sexual Marketplace idea that Roissy and others, myself included, have spoken to. It is real. And it is nothing short of foolish to pretend otherwise.

    So yea, like the lady who hosted the party, you or any other “natural woman” may luck out in the end. Given the biological realities women of any stripe face in today’s uber competitive dating world though-ESPECIALLY if your a Blackl Woman-i wouldn’t say that tacking the tack you and she (the party hostess) is the most practical, get er done strategy.

    But to each their own.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  204. on December 2, 2008 at 5:24 am Benito Hoover

    Good thread. While the social structure of the west is changing, the huge shock of majority male societies in India and China is yet to come. One wonders what the solution will be? State sponsored prostitution? Hordes of yuppies armed with books on game and hefty savings trolling other countries for girlfriends on weekend trips? Polyandry?

    Considering what a young man in those countries will have to go through just to cop a feel, perhaps the situation is not as dire over here.

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  205. “Nicole, Michelle Obama’s hairline has NOTHING to do with why I find her extremely unattractive.”

    You don’t know that it does, but it does because right after that you say:

    “It has everything to do with the fact that she looks too manly for me.”

    ^^^ Her hairline has alot to do with it. Imagine if it was where it should be, which is about 2cm lower. She’d look much, much more feminine.

    “I like a woman with lighter skin, softer features and a womanly form. MO has NONE of that. She elicits no feelings of arousal from me in the least. Period.”

    Is it a crime to not be attractive to you? Dude, she’s married to the President of the United States.

    Exactly where are you compared to him on the status ladder?

    I think she has the potential to be stunning, if she’d embrace her natural self and choose less harmful grooming habits. It’s the relaxer or extreme pressing, and not caring for her skin properly that damages her looks in my opinion.

    You just see her as generally unattractive and unfeminine, and I’m trying to explain to you that the reason for this is not magic elves who beat her with an ugly stick at night. It is adherence to conformist “beauty” standards that do not take her actual physical type into account.

    In other words, nature does not determine what beauty is or isn’t based on your erectile capabilities. Your preference is not an objective measure. The health and evidence thereof, of an organism is.

    “As for the notion that I or any other Black man is “colorstruck” if they don’t like a Whoopie Goldberg hairstyle on a woman, I would say that such a view is the Sour Grapes position of one who is deemed not to be desirable.”

    Heh…okay, I’ll say it.

    I believe that your view is the sour grapes position of one who is not deemed desirable by people who matter.

    Why would I prefer being desired by the throngs of the mediocre when I am desired by the few but exceptional?

    Why would I trade looking like I’m willing to hurt myself to be as close as possible to White, for being walked up to on the street and told that I am beautiful?

    Why would I trade competing for crumbs of attention, when I hardly have to touch a door or the back of a chair in my home town because even guys who don’t want to shag me, consider me a regal and dignified lady?

    Tell me exactly what I am lacking other than sexual attraction from people I’d prefer to rule, charm based on other advantages, or repel.

    “And if there are so many White and Asian men who find such a thing to be so hot, the Interracial Marriage and even Dating rates in this regard would reflect that; by all accounts, they do NOT. ”

    If you could live in my skin for just one day…

    Educated women interested in cross cultural lurve are on the dating sites of their target nations, not on “interracial sites”. Those are specifically marketed to men of color who are colorstruck, and White men trying to get Asian women.

    Sometimes they’ll show a banner of a Black woman and a White guy, but I think that’s just to be PC. No Black woman I know would be caught dead there…but I assure you that the few who do use them are not lacking in prospects.

    Again, this is something I try to explain to men who don’t have sisters or get out enough. There is a lid for every pot. If the pot doesn’t have a lid, it’s by her own choice, not because of a lack of lids.

    “Last year at this time I attended a combination Holiday/Engagement Party for a ladyfriend who has the same kind of style you have, not just hair but overall, as I’ve checked out your site.”

    Is she Bi and willing to relocate?

    “Many women were there, quite a few w/the dreds happening. Several were complaining that they couldn’t get dates, and most of the guys didn’t say anything.”

    Should I tell it?

    Okay I will…that is a game.

    “But, Mu being Mu (Sagittarius all day, everyday), decided to go where no man had gone before, and simply blurted out, Brothas by and large don’t find sistas with dreds sexually desirable. If you want more dates, think about changing up the hairstyle. Period. ”

    Look, I’m sure they know that. You just reinvented the wheel for them, and they…

    “Oh, the howls of derision were so loud I thought the cops were gonna come knockin’. I heard it all: “brainwashed”, racism, sexism, and of course that dreaded M word-Misogyny. And of course great pains where taken to point out, that the hostess and guest of honor herself, a proud owner of a head full of dreds, was proof positive that not all Black men agreed with me. ”

    …rightfully let you have it.

    “My response was simple-there was another sista in attendance who was on the lighter skinned side and had the conventional relaxed hair look, very attractive. She and a few other sistas were in the kitchen while the dredheads were in the front room. Guess where all the guys were? I simply pointed this out and the room fell silent as if someone had scratched the needle accross a record. ”

    Probably because they didn’t understand why you had to make a point of something so obvious. Weak men like weaker women. A stronger woman with any dang sense will raise her bar.

    Most likely, these dread headed women were bored and horny, and were complaining about not being able to get dates to try to look more innocent or something.

    It’s a common game…pretend like your prospects are lower than they are. Women play the alienated rebel thing too.

    “I don’t knock nobody for whatever it is that turns them on, but DA is right about one thing: in the extremely competitive world that is Porn, there’s a real simple reason why you DO NOT, N O T, see women of any color, doing the dredlock thing:

    ITS BECAUSE MEN DON’T FIND IT SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE. ”

    You don’t see them, but I make a fair amount of money seeing them.

    “Period. Believe me, if Men liked it we’d see more of it, especially in venues where it counts, like Porn, because its where there is an actual and direct payoff for such things.”

    Um…dude, it’s like a whole niche category. Where have you been?

    “The party I attended last year was a powerful example of just how important and impactful the Sexual Marketplace idea that Roissy and others, myself included, have spoken to. It is real. And it is nothing short of foolish to pretend otherwise. ”

    I’m sure that nobody wearing a style that takes a minimum of two years to form is confused about the difference between what “men” prefer and what men prefer.

    “So yea, like the lady who hosted the party, you or any other “natural woman” may luck out in the end.”

    Luck has nothing to do with it.

    When you’re beautiful, you can afford to be fat and natty. When you’re ugly, you have to straighten your hair and avoid direct sunlight.

    “Given the biological realities women of any stripe face in today’s uber competitive dating world though-ESPECIALLY if your a Blackl Woman-i wouldn’t say that tacking the tack you and she (the party hostess) is the most practical, get er done strategy.

    But to each their own.”

    Given your response, I’d say that the biological realities are working just fine…including natural selection.

    I hope you find a woman with good strong kidneys, and that she doesn’t poison your kids while breastfeeding them…but I personally don’t think my kidneys or my kids are worth getting selected by “men” who don’t care about either.

    Like


  206. Benito,
    I think we already have an idea, if last week’s bombing in Bombay is any indication: a major shortage/”liberation” of Women in such societies will give way to extremist movements being born. Simply put, having a bunch of horny young men, with nothing to do and no one to wed, is not a good thing to have.

    In the Middle East, much of the problem wrt Terrorism stems from a Woman Shortage, but it comes mainly from Polygamy and the kinds of rigid controls those societies place both on men and women. And in India right now, the divorce rate is climbing among the middle classes, roughly equivalent in size to the whole of the USA population. It has been noted that everytime women are liberated, divorce/nonmarriage gives up markedly.

    In China, due to the One Child Policy that had been in place over the past few decades, there are more men than women, especially those who are young and single. This has created quite a few social problems, especially as the Chinese people experience consumerist middle class life for the first time. Those young who can either snatch up the few choice Chinese gals for marriage, or, head for places like Korea or Taiwan, or parts of Southeast Asia. However, throughout the vast countrysides of China, are millions of young men who don’t have the means with which to win such females; they doomed to live half lives of desperation and frustration.

    So, the future for these two countries does not look very bright I’m afraid; unlike here in this country, where a long tradition of nonviolence and cooperation has prevailed, in India and especially China brutal suppression and violence has been the norm (btw in the case of India: more terrorist attacks have occured there than in any other country, save for the possibility of Israel). Put together with centuries of marital tradition and the like, it is hard to see how the Indian and especially Chinese Male Population will take any of this lying down.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  207. Nicole,
    The Ad Hominem assault is a bit much, hmm? Clearly, the next POTUS finds something in her worthy of making her his wife, and I say, God Bless em for it. And, for the record, I have no idea what she is like as a person, she may well be a very beautiful one on the inside.

    I feel the same way about you, and those ladies at the party. But as I said on the Visualizing Omega thread, all of those niceties go right out of the window when it comes to raw Sexual Attraction. Either you got it, or you don’t. The End.

    And insofar as Michelle Obama goes, if Sarah Palin’s run for the Veep office means anything, they are in NO WAY comparable. Roissy, Whiskey and quite a few others have blogged on this very important point: WOMEN, by and large, savaged the latter because she was Hot and deemed doable by the vast majority of the American Male Populace, regardless of Color, Creed or Political Affiliation. Those are the facts, Ma’am.

    Sade, the world famous singer, as a forehead that makes her look like a tadpole. Yet I still find her sexually attractive. I’m telling you that MO’s hairline has NOTHING to do with her utter lack of sexual attractiveness. It has everything to do with her manly features and that includes both her face and body. Don’t believe me, ask any man in here, White and Black alike, we have both on this Forum. Ask any of them which they would do if they could: Michelle Obama, or Sade? Michelle Obama, or Sarah Palin? I think its fair to say, that to ask those questions is to answer them.

    And I also think its safe to say that I know at least as many Black Men as do you, most likely more. I asked around my shop, which is 99% Male, and roughly half Black, if any of them found the Whoopi Goldberg look (ie, dredlocks) sexually attractive on a Sista. NONE of them did. I suppose they’re all “colorstruck” too, right? Even when the vast majority of Black Men get with Black Women. Riiiight…

    As for the assault on me, as I’ve said before, you have to know your Market. No one will be sexually attractive to everyone. That’s not the point. The point is, that I, as a Black Man, will be far and away more sexually attractive to sexually attractive White Women, than you or any of your dreadlock wearing Sistas will be to sexually attractive White Men. Again, I have the cold, hard, facts in the form of US Census figures to prove it.

    And you have…?

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  208. :: imagines a Chinese man in the current situation who can’t get turned on by women with warm complexions, who choose to wear their hair long and straight ::

    Like


  209. Nicole,
    Listen, we don’t have to make this personal, OK? I’m simply telling you the facts on the ground. Who I am or am not sexually attractive to is irrelevant to the point being made, which is, that by and large, most Black Men do NOT find dredlock wearing Sistas t be Sexually Attractive. The End.

    On Michelle Obama: again nothing personal. It has nothing to do with her forehead. Sade has a forehead that makes her look like a human tadpole. She is still far and away more sexually attractive to Men, White and Black, than is MO. We can put it to the test right here in this Forum if you like.

    The reason those women at the party were crying Sour Grapes was because they refused to grow up face facts, and make changes in that which they were selling to get the desired effect. Women as a rule have a very hard time facing up to the harsh realities of Life. What I described to you was one such instance.

    Salaam
    Mu

    PS: The Happy Hubbie to Be was back in the Kitchen with us, too.;)

    Like


  210. I feel I should clarify, Mu…I have no problem whatsoever with a man who prefers or at least embraces women of a different ethnicity. I feel that this is a good thing that improves humanity by maintaining a good genetic diversity. We humans don’t have so much of that, so every little bit counts.

    What I find disturbing is the idea that accepting other cultures means losing one’s own, or that enjoying the beauty of people who look very different from you means that you require people who look like you to try to look like someone else. It indicates that one is not happy with one’s own heritage, and doesn’t want to be visually reminded that their people have certain natural physical features.

    What’s worse is that we’re not even talking about ornaments or alterations that enhance someone’s beauty. They don’t make a person look healthier, or indicate anything particularly good or superior about them. They actually damage a person’s natural health markers.

    I understand attraction isn’t really viewed as logical, but I believe that it is super-logical…so logical that our petty human minds barely recognize it as such.

    Like goes to like.

    White men don’t have as much of a problem about Black women’s hair as Black men do, for the same reason that non Asian men don’t have such a stick up their arses about pale skin as Asian men do. Aesthetics is like a failsafe that the people profiting from these industries use to make money and cull the herd.

    Deep down at the head of every large cosmetics company, and some small ones, is a nihilistic bitch or bastard laughing.

    …laughing while women paint their lips with lead.

    …laughing while they chase whatever new diet comes along.

    …and laughing while women coat their faces in acid every morning, then go out in the sun and expect that the acid bath will keep them looking young.

    …and laughing some more while cutting up their faces and bodies, or injecting toxins that will make them into pretty little cyborgs.

    I have much more respect for a guy who, honestly believing that thinner is healthier, says, “No fat chicks,” and finds himself a nice aerobics instructor who might have hair like chicken feathers, but a good, tight rump.

    He wants natural and fit. He’s not expecting her to do anything to herself that she can’t do safely and sanely.

    A guy who expects women to coat themselves in poisons just to look “good” that isn’t really good…I wish I didn’t understand why.

    Like


  211. Nicole, all the over-analysis in the Universe will not change the fact that if Men have to choose between Michelle Obama on one side and Sarah Palin or Sade on the other, it’d be a landslide of Reaganesque proportions. Mannish looking women are NOT HOT. Period. Women who look like Whoopi Goldberg, ARE NOT HOT. The End.

    And this comes from a Brotha who thinks Jill Scott is all that, ESPECIALLY when she wears her hair in a throwback natural Afro style of the Soul Train days. It is just simply, certain things Women do can alter their Sexual Attractiveness Level for the better or for the worse. That’s it.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  212. Mu, maybe it’s not the dreadlocked women who have the trouble facing facts.

    You have proven the level of brainwashing of African American males in your social circle. You haven’t proven the ugliness of dreadlocks.

    Sometimes as a survival measure, women in a tribe who have been rejected by their own men for stupid reasons, will go to other tribes if they are welcome. The resurgence of natural hairstyles means that Black women are recognizing that straightening their hair is not favorable to many in a cost/benefit sense.

    If straightening my hair gained me something, I would still be straightening it. All it really did for me was make my hair straight. It didn’t enhance my looks in any way. It did however, make me look like a common, weak fat sea cow who was trying too hard to be the wrong kind of cute.

    I looked in the mirror and realized what I needed to do was be me. Straightening my hair was part of a non me…a fat sea cow as opposed to a big, sturdy, and as I’m told, beautiful woman.

    When I didn’t look like myself, I kept attracting people like my first husband, who didn’t really want me, but who I looked like I was trying to be. My second husband was a little closer, but still off the mark in a couple of ways.

    Now, even in a hostile culture, once I gained my footing, I’m hitting nothing but net…partly because I no longer bring a baseball to a basketball game.

    I don’t need to straighten my hair. I need to stay motivated and keep hitting the cycle, the pavement, and the mat. Actually improving myself is more meaningful to me than conforming to suit men who wouldn’t fit me even if my hair was natually straight, and I was pale as a picket fence.

    Like


  213. Nicole you are continuing to make this personal, when all I am doing is showing you how the Sexual Marketplace actually works. No amount of statements/assaults like me supposedly being “brainwashed” or “colorstruck” and the like utterl ridiclous, especially when one considers that the majority of Black men choose Black women as mates, and that most Black folks are at least part White.
    No amount of Ad Hominem attacks and namecalling will change the fact that ANY Black Woman who chooses to look like Whoopi Goldberg also chooses to reduce her Sexual Marketplace Powewr by at leasr 20%-a huge number, since for a Female, her SMP is directly connected to the extent to which she is desired by the Males in any given Market.

    This explains at least in part why Lauren Hill, whom most Brothas hold in high regard insofar as her artistic talents are concerned, would be crushed by the CORNROW WEARING Alicia Keys, if the Brothas could chose whom to bed. Part of that reason as a great deal to do with the fact that Hill chose to adopt a mini-version of the Whoopi Goldberg look. 20% reduction, right off the bat, in SMP.

    Men the world over and throughout history have always preferred the fairer skinned female. This is true in many parts of Africa as well. In addition, there is evidence that African women straightened their hair in ancient Egypt, as well as employed the use of cornrows, etc. The dredlock look, which has become to be associated with Bob Marely and the Rasta movement, is something that very few Black men find desirable.

    Holla back

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  214. Mu, you don’t speak for all Black men, and you damn sure don’t speak for all men throughout history. Come on.

    I tend to speak from my personal point of view because unlike some people, I don’t claim to speak for all women…only myself. I notice trends, but I wouldn’t presume to speak for everyone in whatever category.

    You should also be aware that in a conversation with me, saying that something is popular or normal, or the way things are generally done, does not imply that it is better. What American “brothers” prefer in general is as relevant to me as what White guys in general prefer, which is as relevant to me as what chimpanzees, cats, or pigs prefer.

    As a farmer, shepherd, or social engineer, it interests me. As an individual in the dating game, it is a curious phenomenon, and usually an example of what *not* to attract.

    I make a clear distinction between what Mr. or Ms. Average should do to get what they usually want, and what exceptional people should do to get what they want.

    You are slaves. I’m not. You can’t get away with the kinds of things I can, and neither can your women.

    I’m not arrogant. I’m mortal, and pee, poo, bleed, whatever, just like any other woman…but from the neck up, I’m more than most guys can handle, and I like it that way.

    If it means I’ll lack something in mass appeal, so be it…and I’ve said that in so many ways before, though for some reason, you insist on repeating the equivalent of, “Hoo-hoo-ha-hee-herd likey hairweave!”

    Okay. I get it. Now I am telling you that all of us who wear this kind of style get it. We understand that you don’t want to fuck us, and consider that a good thing. You may now move on with your mediocre life.

    …but that is never enough for a rabid conformist, is it?

    No, in your fantasies, we are all crying and lonely just because you don’t want us. You’re so vested in your artificial sense of superiority and entitlement that you didn’t even understand what they were trying to tell you.

    You don’t like the buzz word ‘colorstruck’ because it alarms you…but it accurately describes you. It’s not enough that there are White and Asian women you could shag. There are even south Asians who are very dark but have straight hair, who you could shag. No, we’re all supposed to try to look un-African or else we’re in your presumptuous fantasies, doomed to a life of lonliness.

    …and another thing, my brother, Black American men are not the only men in the world, and increasing numbers of sisters are figuring that out. Pity has no place in mate selection, and well…getting rejected because of petty things like a hairstyle is Black women’s just reward for pitying Black men so much that they’ve been largely exclusive to them, despite the same media influence about White men being superior, as there has been about White women being so.

    This is why when my parents told me they hoped I’d bring home a Black man, I told them that I wouldn’t date someone for pity…and that if anything, I only hoped I’d find a Black man who could keep up with me, because of simple aesthetic preference and cultural commonality.

    When I grew up, I figured out right quick that I have more in common with a Polish Jew whose parents were revolutionaries against the English, than with the mostly apathetic, self hating Black guys who grew up next door to me.

    So in my opinion, those dreadlocked women have more of a bead on reality than you do. Whether they’re conscious of it or not, they are no longer hiding the markers of their evolutionary status.

    Long, healthy hair is whether you like it or not, a clear beauty marker on a woman of any color. That’s nature.

    Like


  215. A comment on hair in Africa: I travelled a fair bit in Africa at one time, and I didn’t see dreadlocks on either sex from one end of the continent (Nigeria) to the other (Kenya). That was many years ago, and things may have changed, but my relatives’ more recent experience in Nigeria suggests that they haven’t changed that much.

    Sub-Saharan Africans, male and female, did not and perhaps still don’t wear their hair in dreadlocks, at least before TV became ubiquitous, before white fashions had a chance to make many inroads there. Men and school girls prior the age of puberty wore their hair very short. Young women wore elaborate braids (corn rows?). And adult married women, in Nigeria at any rate, covered their hair with gelees, i.e. elaborately tied head-dresses.

    Styles varied from one country to another, from city to countryside, and from tribe to tribe among those who lived in tribal villages. Kenyan city women wore their hair short and uncovered, and wore Western clothes (in the city, again). A few straightened their hair. Nigerian Yoruba city women wore gelees but I think other groups may have kept their heads uncovered and worn braids. Never, never dreadlocks. In short, black African women were as much influenced by fashions within their communities as women anywhere.

    The idea that the arrival of western or white influences are what leads African women away from nature – if that was your point, Nicole – seems false to me.

    Clio

    Like


  216. In the second paragraph, I meant to say “Western fashions” rather than “white fashions”. I believe dreadlocks are in fact a Western fashion, one that emerged in the Caribbean and made its way to the US but was not common in Africa until quite recently, and isn’t that common even now.

    Clio

    Like


  217. “The idea that the arrival of western or white influences are what leads African women away from nature – if that was your point, Nicole – seems false to me. ”

    No, that’s not my point. My point is that sheeple do what they’re told. It doesn’t matter whether it’s White influence to straighten their hair, or African influence to cut off their clitoris.

    People who reject the harmful practices have a price to pay, and well into paying that price generally lose whatever confusion they may have had about the ways of the herd. After being turned down for jobs, kicked out of school, arrested for braiding, etc. I don’t think any Black woman in that field is unclear about the hostility against us.

    My point is that it’s worth the price.

    Like


  218. Clio, dreadlocks aren’t common in Africa except among a few tribes who do matted twists, because they’re considered a spiritual thing. For some it’s associated with Voudun.

    So it’s common among initiates…just not among “normal” people. Heh.

    Like


  219. Nicole,
    If I understand correctly, you reject some conventional beauty practices on the basis of ” harmful practices have a price to pay”.

    1) beauty “deviants” are defined only by their numbers. Some of these deviant practices will reach a critical number, and then become conventional. A new younger group of “deviants then create a new deviancy.

    2) Be careful in what you believe to be “harmful.
    Throwing out the term “chemical does not equate to “harmful”, and does not mean it is so. Ex.: I am very comfortable with the use of glabellar botulinum toxin; some conclude that it is “harmful”.

    Like


  220. Nicole,
    If were going to continue to discuss the issues in a productive way, we will hve to refrain from making personal attacks and the like. For the record I have no axe to grind with you, or for that matter those Sistas at the party. I wish them and you well in whatever you choose to do.

    Moreover, I am as Free a Market Capitalist as they come; I have no problem in the least with any Woman, Black or otherwise, choosing the Mate of her Choice. I am for full and complete Freedom of Association, and think it silly to suggest that a person’s selection of Mate is somehow a larger commentary on the state of their Blackness.

    And with all due respect Nicole, I as a lifelong Black Man am in a much better position to report on what most Black Men do and do NOT find Sexually Attractive, than you are; and when I White Woman can see the same things I’m seeing, that should say something about the Power of Ideology to blind one to the Truth of Life.

    What I’m discussing at this juncture is the nature of Sexual Marketplace Power and how it works. For Females of any Time and Clime, the major component of their SMP is the extent to which they are deemed to be Sexually Desirable to the Males of any particular Market. Period. No amount of convoluted “analysis” will change what I just said-that ANY Black Woman who chooses to go the Whoopi Goldberg route will experience an immediate 20% reduction of their SMP, at least, among the Brothas. If not much, much more.

    So please Nicole, let’s refrain from assaults and “questioning” of my “street creds” and so on. It only makes you look undignified.

    Salaam
    Mu

    PS: Thanks Clio.

    Like


  221. Mu, I give up. You’re completely missing the point, and still regurgitating the same tired sheep-like bleating about SMP (originally SMV…I was there during the term’s creation), which is totally irrelevant.

    It’s tiresome.

    It’s impossible not to insult you because you feel insulted by everything.

    Might want to ease up on the self pity.

    Anony, I don’t feel that natural hair is particularly deviant. That you do says more about you than it does about me.

    I am also not one of those ignorant herbal essence sheeple who doesn’t understand that everything in the world is made of chemicals.

    What I mean is that high alkalinity chemicals are bad for your hair, and there’s no way I would ever expose my own hair to anything like that again.

    Chemical burns, kidney problems, and in at least one case of a Rio straightening treatment, death, are just not worth it to look good to pussies.

    If I want pussy I can get a Lesbian…without burning my scalp for her.

    Like


  222. I find corn rows reptilian-looking.

    Like


  223. I’ve always been true to myself by watching Star Wars and taking about Unix over IM. Somehow, though, it doesn’t get the girls excited.

    But they’re just losers who can’t handle a real man. After all, it’s only men who speak Klingon and Elvish.

    Those guys who feel the need to learn ‘game’ or ‘fashion’ or ‘social graces’ are just giving into what majoritarian society demands of them. They’re just sacrificing themselves on the alter of media conformity.

    That makes me better than them.

    Like


  224. I’ve always found it amusing when genuinely beautiful women try to hide their beauty by dressing down or not styling their hair in an effort to look frumpy — it’s so transparent because their underlying beauty shines through regardless. However, I have found there are 2 things that are dealbreakers for me when I see them on white women: cornrows and those god awful Betty Paige haircuts with the bangs. They just kill my boner.

    Re: dreads —

    Dreads (the natural kind) are commonly seen among vagrants and the homeless due to lack of bathing and the accumulated build up of sweat and oil, and as such are more a psychological marker for grime and filth than they are health.

    Like


  225. Corn-rows look terrible on white people because unless the hair is really thick, a lot of startlingly white scalp shows through them, and looks esp. odd if the hair, in contrast, is dark. Corn-rows on black people with black hair look rather beautiful, depending on the features of the man or woman wearing them.

    Clio

    Like


  226. Corn-rows look terrible on white people

    Corn-rows look terrible on black people too.

    Like


  227. Anonymous, one more (god damned) time…

    :: deep breath ::

    I am aware that non conformity with the herd often leads to the consequence of being disliked by most in the herd.

    The good news is however, that the smart independent thinker who doesn’t want to be a martyr either learns to avoid, rule, or at least successfully build a life in spite of such people.

    I’d get wet for a Klingon speaking cosplayer who thinks for himself, and doesn’t think life owes him anything but a hole to decay in.

    Why do you people keep acting as if these things should matter more than they do? At the end of the day, whether you like it or not, no money has been removed from my bank account nor men removed from my fan listing, just because dreadlocks make you uncomfortable.

    Keep trying though. Maybe the tooth fairy will wave her magic wand and all copies of TSZ’s chapter on the world’s ugliest man will disappear.

    Like


  228. Tupac says, “I’ve always found it amusing when genuinely beautiful women try to hide their beauty by dressing down or not styling their hair in an effort to look frumpy — it’s so transparent because their underlying beauty shines through regardless.”

    Maybe, hazarding a guess here, they’re just dressed “frumpy” because they’re on their way to the grocery store or post office, and don’t feel this warrants clubwear.

    …or maybe their beauty didn’t give them ambition, business sense, a degree, or a partner who wanted to do more with them than exploit them.

    …or maybe, just maybe, they got a complex from so many attempts at exploitation, that they decided to stop looking like a walking target, and wear clothing that is comfortable and weather appropriate.

    Just some ideas tossed out there.

    “However, I have found there are 2 things that are dealbreakers for me when I see them on white women: cornrows and those god awful Betty Paige haircuts with the bangs. They just kill my boner.”

    So…a fit, buxom, tight assed 19 year old with a stunning face and a killer smile, could kill your boner with cornrows or a Betty Paige haircut?

    :: takes notes ::

    You see, one of the things I do for young ladies I mentor is instruct them in passive punk repellant.

    “Re: dreads —

    Dreads (the natural kind) are commonly seen among vagrants and the homeless due to lack of bathing and the accumulated build up of sweat and oil, and as such are more a psychological marker for grime and filth than they are health.”

    Well, noses are commonly seen on murderers and child molesters.

    Nice spin though…but alas, a typical sheeple response to truth.

    You know good and well that well maintained locs have nothing to do with the matted jeefa seen on vagrants.

    Again, keep trying. If you squint really hard, you might even see her little fairy wings…

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  229. Oh, the world doesn’t owe me anything at all. I depend on me.

    I just think that women who don’t understand why a totally at-ease guy like me knows the etymology of “Sméagol” don’t see the world for how it really exists. They are buying into the capitalistic paradigm and are totally uncomfortable with real masculinity.

    That’s what makes them paragon sheeple of the consumerist class. If only they could be more natural.

    Because I deliberately put myself outside of this ‘game’, if you will, I cannot be judged.

    ::shrug::

    It’s not easy being a martyr.

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  230. Anonymous, if you did basically the same as me, and stopped competing in that field (playing a game in which you’re a loser by default), why do you consider yourself a martyr? I fancy us more as monks and nuns…sort of not necessarily celibate aescetics.

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  231. So anyway, I’ve been giving some thought to the ideas and notions that Whiskey, Vladimir and Jaakkeli have had about the Future of Betas. Here is my take.

    I think what’s likely to happen is that we’ll see a kind of polarity of extremes playing itself: I call them the Opt-Outs and the Going Outs(With A Bang!) groups.

    The OOs pretty much get a good bit of attention in this venue, mainly because of the nature of the people here-largely but not exclusively White and Asian, w/a smatterin of David Alexander-type Blacks and Browns. Betas who will likely continue to go to work and pay their taxes to support the massive Welfare State programs that so many have come to take for granted. But that’ll be about it-in just about every other meaningful way, they will simply Stop in the ways that have already been indicated. I consider this group to be the Silent Kill.

    Then we have the GOs: would be Alphas and frustrated Betas from the Hood who don’t see themselves as having anything else to lose, and won’t hesitate to resort to the Steel.

    I see these two groups kinda converging on the Big Middle of guys who face Betadom. They are likely to respond in a mixed way, some of the OOs and a bit of the GOs.

    At first, it will be seen in Racial and perhaps Class/Social terms. But as more and more White Males start to go the GO route, and, at the same time, as more White and some other racial group males start to really Opt Out, a crisis will be declared. But, because of the essentially Feminized nature of our Media and even Politics, few if any will actualy call the problem for what it is-a rational response to a drastically changed dating and mating landscape.

    Whiskey has suggested in earlier writings, that he expects to see more “low level” Misogyny. I think we might have seen a taste of it recently, with the Lois Feldman incident.

    Now, I think she brought it on herself-but IF she was raped, the guys standing on the sidelines do not bode well for things. And my guess is that we’re likely to see a lot more of that.

    Finally, I wouldn’t be too quick to discount the idea of a “Male” political party; afterall, it isn’t a stretch to say that the current GOP is indeed the Party of White Males, by and large. Now, would we see anything major along the lines Whiskey has suggested? My guess is not in the short term. But it could happen within our lifetime. Stranger things have happened.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  232. Nicole,

    The thing is, I want to have my cake and eat it too. I want the results without any effort at changing myself. I just WISH the world was the way I fantasized that it COULD be.

    But it’s good that there’s someone else here who thinks in a similar way.

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  233. Nicole:

    Maybe, hazarding a guess here, they’re just dressed “frumpy” because they’re on their way to the grocery store or post office, and don’t feel this warrants clubwear.

    …or maybe their beauty didn’t give them ambition, business sense, a degree, or a partner who wanted to do more with them than exploit them.

    …or maybe, just maybe, they got a complex from so many attempts at exploitation, that they decided to stop looking like a walking target, and wear clothing that is comfortable and weather appropriate.

    Perhaps all of the above. I was just making an observation. I had in mind a particular memory of when I first met my FinnMex sweetheart. Picked her up for a daytime coffee date and she was wearing a pair of jean shorts 3 sizes too large and a ratty worn-out concert tee, no makeup. I paid it no mind because I was already smitten.

    After she became my girlfriend, I reminded her of that day and asked her what the hell she was thinking. She confessed that she wore her fat roomate’s clothes with no makeup because she wanted to make sure I liked her for more than just her looks. I could only smile at this ploy of hers because the truth at the time of the coffee date was that I was inwardly biting my knuckles and thinking, “Sweet Mary Mother of GOD this girl is fucking *FINE*!!!” 🙂

    Beauty like that is irrepressible.


    Well, noses are commonly seen on murderers and child molesters.

    Nice spin though…but alas, a typical sheeple response to truth.

    You know good and well that well maintained locs have nothing to do with the matted jeefa seen on vagrants.

    Again, keep trying. If you squint really hard, you might even see her little fairy wings…

    I was only providing a plausible reason for why men in general might not like dreads. Whatever marker of health you say it conveys might very well be swamped by the psychological association with grungyness. Convoluted feminist theories of racial hegemony needn’t be invoked.

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  234. Anonymous, we all have times of jealousy of the naive…sometimes even the stupid. However, consider the fact that nature selects against them much more often than the intelligent and relatively self willed.

    Nature hates stupidity. People die of it every day. I’d much rather be in the small percentage who can keep a cool head in a disaster than those who can’t.

    I understand that whatever jealousy I may have for sheeple at times stems from an entitlement issue, which is for me, what keeps it in check. The Universe is arranged exactly as it should be, and what I have is what I deserve. What I don’t is what I don’t.

    …but the grass is always greener…

    It’ll be easier to get over any envy of them once you go through a phase or two of luring a few of those emotional moronettes from the herd. You’ll understand then why wolves don’t shag sheep, and don’t even eat them unless there is nothing else available.

    Like our beloved asshole Roissy here, this might take the edge off, but it will not satisfy you. In the end, you will still be looking for your match until at some point you genetically suicide and settle on whoever doesn’t make you fantasize about bitchslapping them constantly, get married, have kids, and *then* meet your rare counterpart…or you might get lucky, and pick her up at a convention, painted green with a black wig before you’re already attached to a half-taker.

    We all have dreams. It’s good for us. So long as we still have a good hold on reality, it’s not a problem.

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  235. Tupac says, “Beauty like that is irrepressible.”

    …except by dreadlocks and Betty Paige haircuts.

    “I was only providing a plausible reason for why men in general might not like dreads. Whatever marker of health you say it conveys might very well be swamped by the psychological association with grungyness. Convoluted feminist theories of racial hegemony needn’t be invoked.”

    In what way is an unreleated association with vagrants and the homeless a more plausible explanation than ignorance and brainwashing?

    You just said the same thing I did, but from the perspective of one of one of the idiots.

    One more (mother f*cking) time…

    I am not trying to say that (American/suburbanite/oreo/whatever) men all love dreadlocks. That is not my point.

    My point is that the *people who matter* are not put off by something so petty as a thousands of years old hairstyle that is indicative of embracing one’s natural self, not hiding one’s evolutionary/biological advantages (which the ability to grow long, healthy hair is), and (key word coming up here) *rejection* of the current crabs-in-a-bucket aesthetic trends that lead people to artificially equalize their looks by pursuing the same artificial ideal.

    A *natural* ideal is preferable for some people to a *cultural* ideal. Cultures change and trends come and go, but nature is nature.

    Do you guys get this bent out of shape against guys who do combat training?

    How about guys who shave their heads?

    Sure, the guy who opts for combat training over bodybuilding is going to be less trendy or noticeable among the herd, but he can kick a hater’s teeth in.

    I’d say that was a worth-it tradeoff.

    Well…for me, dreadlocks and combat training are worth it.

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  236. on December 3, 2008 at 1:36 am Benito Hoover

    Mu’min, the difference between China and India on one hand, and the middle east and Pakistan is religion. It is very unlikely we will see Buddhist or Hindu sects blowing themselves up as there is little in the religions for a power seeking group to capitalize on. The hyper-capitalistic impulse has been kindled and embraced by the educated elite in both China and India and it is well known that money attracts women. The is a shortage of desirable women in the US has lead to agencies contracting marriage in more desirable countries springing up as a market response. If the world economy picks back up and continues where it left up, in about 30 years we could have countries with large amounts of the unwanted, both poorer men, and women with perceived deficient social attributes. It could lead to overseas Chinese and Indians trying to have more daughters for the obvious potential economic benefits, or we could also have “undesirable” women in some countries becoming hot commodities to foreign men, things could normalize by more couples trying to have girls as a rational response to market conditions despite current socaial mores. The thing about social engineering is it always has completely unexpected results.

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  237. on December 3, 2008 at 1:48 am Benito Hoover

    Anonymous

    “Styles varied from one country to another, from city to countryside, and from tribe to tribe among those who lived in tribal villages. Kenyan city women wore their hair short and uncovered, and wore Western clothes (in the city, again). A few straightened their hair. Nigerian Yoruba city women wore gelees but I think other groups may have kept their heads uncovered and worn braids. Never, never dreadlocks. In short, black African women were as much influenced by fashions within their communities as women anywhere.

    The idea that the arrival of western or white influences are what leads African women away from nature – if that was your point, Nicole – seems false to me.”

    —————————————————————————

    You need to go back to Africa. Dreads are not uncommon in the South African region. From what I have been told the wearing of dreads is for spiritual purposes and not a fashion statement. The reason why rastas started wearing dreads in the first place.

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  238. Tupac Chopra,
    Re: the FinnMex gal, Dreds, etc., excellent points.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  239. Nicole:
    …except by dreadlocks and Betty Paige haircuts.

    Yeah, pretty much. 🙂

    The hotter the girl, the greater the handicap she can afford.

    In what way is an unreleated association with vagrants and the homeless a more plausible explanation than ignorance and brainwashing?

    Parsimony.

    I’m not saying ignorance can’t ever be a factor in men’s preferences, just that some preferences needn’t be a result of ignorance. And maybe just maybe some preferences might be a result of something being inherently unattractive. Or are you one of those people who thinks there is no such thing?

    One more (mother f*cking) time…

    I am not trying to say that (American/suburbanite/oreo/whatever) men all love dreadlocks. That is not my point.

    I know. You’re point is that men who are turned off by dreadlocks have been brainwashed, and presumably could be led to feel differently if they were “educated” properly.

    Not gonna fly.

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  240. “Parsimony.

    I’m not saying ignorance can’t ever be a factor in men’s preferences, just that some preferences needn’t be a result of ignorance. And maybe just maybe some preferences might be a result of something being inherently unattractive. Or are you one of those people who thinks there is no such thing?”

    It’s kind of a waste of time to have these discussions with someone who doesn’t study anthropology. I’m only doing it to show you why it is important to do so before getting snippy about these sorts of things with someone who has.

    There is no such thing as inherently unattractive. The range of likes and dislikes is too wide, and there is compelling evidence that even in animals, early sexual experiences and training influence preference. There is something to be said for genetic potential and gestational environment, but a good bit of people’s taste is formed by their upbringing.

    Take a gander at a list of paraphilias. Consider that they are relative. A man from certain tribes in Papua New Guinea would call heterosexuality a paraphilia.

    I mean…if it’s possible for a “normal” guy to enjoy oral sex from a barely pubescent boy, or gut f*cking their conquered enemies after a raid, or bleeding their penis to offer the blood to the gods, then well…some well kept locs don’t seem such a stretch.

    When you understand what normal human behavior is, you kind of lose the desire to be normal.

    ” know. You’re point is that men who are turned off by dreadlocks have been brainwashed, and presumably could be led to feel differently if they were “educated” properly.

    Not gonna fly.”

    Well, once the preferences are set, they are very difficult to change. Whatever went wrong with you, Mu, and most other American men, was a done deal by the time you were 14.

    From my point of view, you’re both confused because you’re selecting for normalcy, which nowadays is disloyalty, lack of any sense of honor, and self loathing.

    Women wear the costume of the role we wish to play in life. When I tell someone I love them, he never has to wonder if I really mean it. He also knows that whatever he tells me in confidence or even that’s private, that he doesn’t give me permission to repeat, will not be repeated.

    He knows basically just from looking at me, that I will get the Rodney King treatment and worse, and still never betray him…and actually from the faint facial scars he can be even more sure of this than from the hairstyle and overall carriage.

    If you needed a loyal woman to survive and do your business, or took things like honor seriously, then you wouldn’t be so hard on those who wear a long, luxurious, symbol of an ability to remain faithful no matter what others have to say about it, on our heads.

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  241. Nicole:

    If you needed a loyal woman to survive and do your business, or took things like honor seriously, then you wouldn’t be so hard on those who wear a long, luxurious, symbol of an ability to remain faithful no matter what others have to say about it, on our heads.

    Chill, girl. I’m not being hard on anyone. I have a preference and explained my reasons. You’re the one casting aspersions on me and Mu’s motives.

    Don’t be surprised when we cast off the yoke you’re attempting to place on us.

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  242. Tupac, David has a preference for one thing and an aversion to another. He likes porn chicks and long acrylic nails.

    He doesn’t link my hairstyle to dirtiness. He links dirtiness to dirtiness.

    Clio also has an opinion about what she does and doesn’t like to see. So does PA. They’re not getting chewed out.

    Guess why?

    If you’d have left it at your opinion, and not attempted to muddle your way through trying to prove that your preference was somehow universal or based on “inherent attraction” (whatever the hell that is), I wouldn’t have had much to say about it.

    The problem in these exchanges is that I know the difference between my personal opinion, a statistic, a conclusion based on a statistic or observations, and the truth.

    My opinion is just my opinion. A statistic is formed based on a question which may not be the right question to get the right answer and draw the correct conclusion. My observations are obviously limited by the level to which I’ve studied or experienced things, and how I intepret them.

    The truth…well, maybe none of us knows it, but the fun is trying.

    So I’m not placing any yoke on you. I just think if you’re going to take a side, take it. I don’t need to be agreed with. I’m trying to learn something here…namely what another person’s perspective is of an issue. If I have something to offer that might bring us closer to understanding each other, I’ll offer that.

    …but I don’t throw or argue like a girl. I’m not going for consensus. I’m calling it as I see it, and if something is wrong with how I’m seeing it, you’re just as free to give your opinion too.

    You joined the anti dread bandwagon. Ride that biatch.

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  243. Mu said if any of them found the Whoopi Goldberg look (ie, dredlocks) sexually attractive on a Sista
    Have you seen some of the men Whoopi has dated? She did very well for herself back in the day Mu.
    MU saidThat’s not the point. The point is, that I, as a Black Man, will be far and away more sexually attractive to sexually attractive White Women, than you or any of your dreadlock wearing Sistas will be to sexually attractive White Men. Again, I have the cold, hard, facts in the form of US Census figures to prove it
    Not really MU. The US Census tells you who is married to who. It does not tell you who slept with who last week and the week before. Interesting that you bring these census figures into play because 100 years ago we know it would have been the opposite minus marriage.
    Nicole saidWhat I find disturbing is the idea that accepting other cultures means losing one’s own, or that enjoying the beauty of people who look very different from you means that you require people who look like you to try to look like someone else. It indicates that one is not happy with one’s own heritage, and doesn’t want to be visually reminded that their people have certain natural physical features
    Major Cosign Nicole
    Nicole saidWhite men don’t have as much of a problem about Black women’s hair as Black men do
    Cosign it’s because they aren’t blk and weren’t brought up in a culture which tells them to hate/disfigure /disguise/cover that part of themselves. Thank God my parents were pretty good with sheltering me from the self hate that many blk folks have. Stockholm syndrome is real.

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  244. getting rejected because of petty things like a hairstyle is Black women’s just reward for pitying Black men so much that they’ve been largely exclusive to them, despite the same media influence about White men being superior, as there has been about White women being so.
    Epic comment Nicole. In the 80’s weren’t black women crazy about light skin as well. Weren’t Christopher Williams, El Dabarge, and AL.B. Sure the blk male sex symbols??? What happened was, blk women decided that it was bunk to celebrate one group of men because of their light skin so they went the other way. So by the mid nineties if you weren’t dark skinned like Westly Snipes or at the very least dark brown skinned, you had a hard way to go with the ladies.
    I don’t think any Black woman in that field is unclear about the hostility against us.
    Yes my dear, we are in this alone. There can never be another O.J Simpson because have caught on.

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  245. Clio, dreadlocks aren’t common in Africa except among a few tribes who do matted twists, because they’re considered a spiritual thing. For some it’s associated with Voudun.
    So it’s common among initiates…just not among “normal” people. Heh.

    True, there are a few smaller tribes/ethnic groups in Ethiopia who wear locks and well as peoples in Senegal. Among the Yoruba of Nigeria, sometimes children are born with locks and they call those children DADA.

    @Clio- Black African men& women who live in major cities have access to the world media. They are well aware of who the popular American entertainers are. Bella Naija and Linda Ikeji run sites that report on blk American entertainers as well as Nigerian entertainers.

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  246. Wikipedia has an interesting entry on dreadlocks. Those things go back thousands of years.

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  247. ^^^Yea, some people in Indian wore them for spiritual reasons.

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  248. […] these congenital betas) will dissolve, but the cuckold will have spared himself the humility and genetic metadeath of providing for another man’s legacy with his sweat and tears while his own sad […]

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  249. Hey, did you all know there’s a television program titled “Tool Academy” on VH1?

    In a nutshell, a reeducation camp for alphas.

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  250. […] a woman one or two points higher than what he could otherwise get, without worrying too much that he’ll be cuckolded. 2. Is a woman’s attractiveness absolute or relative or both? Does Brad Pitt think that a 9/10 […]

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