Who Is Smarter?

Exhibit A:

Is it smarter to spend $20K on an engagement ring or just get your fiancee’s name tattooed on your ring finger?

tattoos are forever.

tattoos are forever.

Exhibit B:

Is it smarter to get knocked up at 17 with many more years of fertility and tight vagina left, or spend $28K a month on fertility treatments at the age of 42 in hopes of giving your rich mother a long shot at one non-downs syndrome grandchild?

the touching end of a genetic line.

the touching end of a genetic line.

one and counting...

one and counting...

Maybe these lower middle class proles aren’t as dumb as yuppie ironic hipster SWPLs believe. Levi saves $20K by not supporting the diamond cartel and can probably scrounge up enough money working the oil fields to buy a starter home in the wide open spaces of Alaska for his new family before he hits drinking age. He could glorify his genetic heritage with ten more kids by the time Bristol reaches 30, still looking good.

Meantime, Martha Stewart’s haggard 42 year old divorced upper class careerist daughter cries herself to sleep at night in the gravity boots hoping the intracytoplasmic sperm injection will find a garbage egg still clinging to usefulness and insert itself in romantic union. She probably haughtily scoffed at Bristol’s teen pregnancy and “low class” lifestyle.

Ask yourselves — who is really smarter? Whose lifestyle would you prefer? When you wake up in the middle of the night, divorced, childless, with nothing but memories of your wild sexcapades, your Pier 1 furnishings, and your color-coordinated cat to keep you company, and you feel a chill go down your spine and the hair rise on the back of your neck not knowing why, ask yourself my leetle questions once again and see if maybe… just maybe…
you had it all wrong.





Comments


  1. I think my answer to these question is obvious.

    One thing that sits on me is how, during my sex-ed classes in high school 15 years ago, so much was taught about every imaginable aspect of human sexuality, except the issue of woman’s fertility and age.

    Was it someone’s plan to prevent all those bright-eyes suburban girls from having children? or was it just stupidity?

    The class was taught by a very “hip” and attractive married woman in her mid-thirties, who always seemed to have a gleam in her eye.

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  2. Oh JESUS. It really isn’t that hard of a dichotomy. And… there is always adoption. You’ve got to get out of the NW bubble of DC.

    I do have to say I hope you have some sort of “updates” on your life in five years. Quite curious to see who you will marry.

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  3. Danielle Crittenden earned Palin levels of frigid hatred from the eggless left by suggesting that even for career-oriented women it makes more sense to have kids in your early twenties then have an uninterrupted career path starting in your late twenties, than to do the reverse, a la Levi.

    A surprisingly strong case, including for all the physical reasons given above by R. But…left-liberal feminist women are just not interested in anything as difficult as “facts”, especially biological ones. Someone came out with a book a few years back that argued that women’s fertility drops drastically come 40 and that this fact really needs to be taken into account by women who want to have children. The book, despite hype and a big advance, bombed. Women of the Levi type just wouldn’t, couldn’t face the fact that they had fucked up catastrophically, cosmologically, metaphysically and ontologically, because they had fucked up about something very simple, very primal, very close to home…the ineluctable realities of human reproduction, and the differences between men and women in just that area.

    I have no sympathy for them at all. Thank God they’re unbreeding themselves out of existence. What a bunch of utter absolute losers.

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  4. on September 5, 2008 at 3:46 pm Usually Lurking

    …so much was taught about every imaginable aspect of human sexuality, except the issue of woman’s fertility and age.

    I never thought about that. Great point.

    Another thing that you will often see is that when they do talk about fertility, the graphs and charts will usually start at age 20 or 22, never at 16 or 17.

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  5. Making a girl give a baby up for adoption is almost inhuman in its cruelty.

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  6. You’re way oversimplifying the situation by presenting it as an either/or choice. In reality, most non-underclass women who want children do things differently than Bristol Palin and Stewart fille, by planning to get pregnant in their 20’s or 30’s. Getting pregnant at 17, or not trying until 42, is hardly a normal approach.

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  7. We’ll see who’s smarter when Bristol gets up to 250 pounds.

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  8. on September 5, 2008 at 4:55 pm yourfavoritewritersfavoritewriter

    it is way better to wake up in the middle of the night chilled and childless than be a failure at life in Alaska. Haughtily scoffing at people is fun and part of the natural order of things. Making others feel bad while making urself feel better is really what the world is about.

    to delve further into the matter, the careerist minded childless 42 year old has made for a great lay for many an alpha on the prowl looking for a hit over the years. She has been a building block in the life lessons of young alpha males, run game and some smooth words and yield vagina.

    Being white trash and producing tax drains is not beneficial to society. She also takes herself out of the pool of potential candidates for alphas to subdue. The child just adds to the social security problem, another kid to have to be taught by teachers, another budget strain on the education system to be burdened. The kid also serves as a tax buffer. Bristol should not be producing tax buffers.

    I mock.

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  9. The Daughter had a choice to have the baby or not – maybe she used it to please her mom in the best political way. Maybe she wanted the baby – maybe =she would rather have terminated it.

    At any rate, I doubt that she’ll want the husband in a few short years, and I doubt the husband will want to be de-balled by the “hockey-mom / newest unqualified disaster looming for the country”.

    If they rig this election too and Palin gets in too – the deceit will end up raising the fathers status. So maybe he can get a better job in one of the unqualified appointments they throw out there to anybody standing who will do whatever they ask to keep to the unqualified positions salary and perks.

    I predict harder times for quite a while – while whoever takes over tries to fix the 8 year total bullshit carpet ride.

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  10. Levi saves $20K by not supporting the diamond cartel

    While he is saving $20K by not buying a diamond and he doesn’t care that people call him a prole, I do question how much his tattoo removal will cost if Bristol decides to divorce him.

    can probably scrounge up enough money working the oil fields

    Everybody seems to point out how he’ll make lots of money by working in the oil field, but nobody realizes how much hard work he’ll have to put in by doing so. I assure you that most normal people would rather work in an climate controlled office to make their $150K than in the extreme elements.

    who is really smarter? Whose lifestyle would you prefer?

    Martha Stewart’s daughter can buy and sell Bristol Palin’s prole ass.

    it makes more sense to have kids in your early twenties then have an uninterrupted career path starting in your late twenties

    The problem with such a career path is that most employers will not bother employing women in “real” careers because they have children, and employers fear that the women will put their children first. Secondly, this requires the ability to sacrifice a high standard of living to raise the children in a proper “white” middle class environment, and it puts considerable strain on the male partner to achieve even higher wages to support the female who has little or no earnings.

    the graphs and charts will usually start at age 20 or 22, never at 16 or 17

    That’s because I don’t want more ghetto kids or white trash soaking up welfare payments. I want them working so they can achieve a middle class lifestyle.

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  11. Granted, it’s not a huge number, but the women I’ve known who’ve tried to get pregnant (successfully or not) at older ages, by which I mean late 30’s or higher, have not been Alexis Stewart types. They instead were divorced women, usually with children, who remarried and tried to have a baby with the new husband.

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  12. Is it smarter to spend $20K on an engagement ring or just get your fiancee’s name tattooed on your ring finger?

    Now, this is interesting. A doodle on the groom’s ring finger serves as an acceptable substitute for the bride’s engagement ring?

    “Don’t worry, sugar buns. I have a marking, and that counts for both of us!”

    Are you sure that’s the way it works, even among proles?

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  13. Having kids young isn’t such a bad idea ideologically speaking. But these days girls will leave their husbands on a whim or for “dissatisfaction,” which is almost guaranteed when you are a young woman stuck home with a bawling kid or two while your friends hit the bars in short skirts and tight shirts. It’s a recipe for divorce in many cases.

    Women who marry and have children after they’ve started to decline in terms of attraction and fertility (late 20s) are less likely to divorce, if only because they know their glory days have come and gone.

    I think it will take some intense pressure to keep that marriage together for the next ten years.

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  14. They have the best of both worlds in Iceland:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/18/iceland/print
    Early children, careers and modern-style marriage.

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  15. “I’m too focused on my career right now to get married and have children.”

    Translation: “I just haven’t met the right guy.” *

    Drawing from my own first hand observations – the lady friends of mine with the highest levels of education are all married or engaged and well on their way to starting families. The ones with the lowest – poor planners with low self discipline and low self esteem – friends who never went to college, dropped out, or went into the military – are still single and desperate.

    *I will admit that some women (as well as men) have unrealistic standards and this is the true reason they haven’t met their Mr. Right. I think it is VERY rarely the case that women make a calculated, conscious decision to pass up a happy marriage in order to pursue a career. I think that in these instances, the career just fills the void of having never found love. If you truly want to reach out to women – maybe you should write an article about how to find realistic love without feeling like you settled.

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  16. If you truly want to reach out to women – maybe you should write an article about how to find realistic love without feeling like you settled.

    My bad! You haven’t figured this out yet for yourself.

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  17. I maybe can understand women waiting till their late twenties to get pregnant, to wait until 40 is just foolish. By the way, a woman’s fertility drops significantly at 35, not at 40. At forty, most women are barren. A woman’s ideal breeding age is between 14-27. At 27, there is a constant small drop until 35, where a woman’s fertility rapidly vanishes.

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  18. poor planners with low self discipline and low self esteem – friends who never went to college, dropped out, or went into the military – are still single and desperate.

    Oh crap. That sounds way too familiar for my tastes…

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  19. If you truly want to reach out to women – maybe you should write an article about how to find realistic love without feeling like you settled.

    That’s not a bad suggestion, Brandy

    It wouldn’t hurt if more men adopted at least some kind of Game-lite. In other words, stopped putting women on pedestals and learned to relate to them on a sexual level. Then, more women would fall in love for decent average guys.

    There are tons of decent guys with potential, but they ruin their chances by acting like needy betas. I don’t believe Beta-hood is the male default. It’s something th epast generatin of men has been taught, or slipped into through laziness. And some nerdy types go to another extreme by making fools of themselves with their new-found ‘tude.

    This is where Roissy’s blog is very useful in restoring harmony between the sexes: if damaged men read between the lines, they can find their way to Alphahood.

    Any thoughts on things women could do to find realistic love without feeling like they settled?

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  20. Her mom is a governor/VP candidate and her daughter has inherited her assets. That chick is hot as hell. Palin senior looks like a porn star. She has a tough looking face, nice tits and a hot, blue collar husband. Bristol’s hot ass is covered whether Levi makes it in the oil fields or not.

    Mccain viewing said assets:

    http://www.livesteez.com/videos/watch/k9knE1I

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  21. Ask yourselves — who is really smarter? Whose lifestyle would you prefer?

    Uhh…neither one?

    3 PatickH

    I have no sympathy for them at all. Thank God they’re unbreeding themselves out of existence. What a bunch of utter absolute losers.

    Guess that tearful compassionate stage of your hormone treatments hasn’t kicked in yet.

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  22. If you truly want to reach out to women – maybe you should write an article about how to find realistic love without feeling like you settled.

    That’s the main problem, IMHO. You’ll always feel that you’ve settled because there’s somebody who is better looking, stronger, smarter, etc, and that reminds you of your failure in life to succeed.

    learned to relate to them on a sexual level

    I tried that, and it was like looking for candy in an empty piñata…

    Then, more women would fall in love for decent average guys.

    But if they’re resorting to game, doesn’t that mean they’re no longer decent average guys?

    There are tons of decent guys with potential, but they ruin their chances by acting like needy betas.

    Before I make an ass of myself, can you explain this in depth for the readers?

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  23. on September 5, 2008 at 5:59 pm Usually Lurking

    Any thoughts on things women could do to find realistic love without feeling like they settled?

    PA, this is a good question, but it must be asked with the young people of NYC and LA in mind. IOW, keeping in mind those people that simply cannot afford to start a family (just the other day I saw one of those TLC shows where some young couple decided to NOT flip a house [and, therefore, keep it for themselves] in LA that was modest in size and cost almost 1 million dollars. That wife most certainly did not “settle”.).

    My point is, most (desirable) girls lean very much towards cosmopolitan dreams (Big City, Big Lights). And with the increased amount of immigration and massive population increase, these places have become very expensive.

    So it is damn near impossible for some average girl to get with some average guy and have anything close to that cosmopolitan life.

    Reality is so different.

    Things are going to get worse before they get better.

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  24. Supposedly in Levi’s MySpace profile he stated that the last thing in the world he wanted to do was get married at the age of 18 and that hockey was his passion and he had many years of drinking of fucking around to do before he got married. I tend to believe this, rather than “they were planning to get married before she got pregnant.” Wake up you guys. You’re glorifying these very average people. You’re glorifying Palin who would probably sell out her own daughter for her ambitions. These two little “love birds” are going to be nothing but tabloid fodder.

    I just looked at a few pictures of them and his body language is not the happy in-love, can’t wait to be a father and husband body language. It’s more repressed terror and angst. The whole thing is tragic and pathetic. Think Charles and Diana, conservative American style. This makes me sick, which is why I do not vote, and have no use for 99.9999% of politicians.

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  25. He’s smart for not buying a ring, but let’s be honest here: This kid probably had no more interest in marrying this girl than any of the dudes on this website had in the last girl they slept with until his swimmers got their Micheal Phelps on.

    Seriously. He went from boasting to his friends about how he was waxing the governor’s daughter’s ass to having his Father tell him “you will marry this girl” in the space of one pregnancy test.

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  26. There are two sides to the role of the Alpha man, Roissy. I appreciate the fight in you. You are responding to the vicious war against men that has played out over the last 50 years. The results, as you so ably portray them, have been disastrous.

    The other side of the Alpha man is goodness, mercy and judicious dealings with others.

    You are the point man in the war. So, you are naturally looking for a way to provoke and win a fight at every turn.

    In a certain way, you are taking on the enemy’s characterization of the Alpha man. If they are going to characterize you as a barbarian, vicious oppressor… well, might as well play that role to the hilt. I understand the temptation to play it out this way.

    My late wife used to give me this advice: “When you encounter an obstacle in your path, don’t try to fight your way through it. Turn yourself into water, and find the crevices. There’s no need to announce to the enemy that you intend to fight him head on.”

    Have confidence that men will ultimately end this war. We will because as you yourself have pointed out, nature is what it is. It won’t change to accommodate the infantile pleadings of vicious women and childish men.

    God is the father. I discovered, when my father died, that this is literally true. The other side of the Alpha man is to be a good man and to deal with other people with mercy and kindness. This seems like an impossible contradiction, I know, but it is true.

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  27. on September 5, 2008 at 6:39 pm Turkeybaster115

    Exhibit A:

    Is it smarter to spend $20K on an engagement ring or just get your fiancee’s name tattooed on your ring finger?

    tattoos are forever.

    Exhibit B:

    Is it smarter to get knocked up at 17 with many more years of fertility and tight vagina left, or spend $28K a month on fertility treatments at the age of 42 in hopes of giving your rich mother a long shot at one non-downs syndrome grandchild?

    the touching end of a genetic line.

    one and counting…

    Like


  28. on September 5, 2008 at 6:46 pm Turkeybaster115

    Ladies, I have a Question for you’all

    In your opinion which brand, and type of condom do you like the most. Which has given you the most pleasure and sensation?

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  29. on September 5, 2008 at 7:28 pm jonathanjones02

    Brutal post.

    And right on target.

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  30. Stop trying to create a false dichotomy to make these hillbillies seem “smart”. It ain’t happening.

    We get it – you’re a Sarah Palin fan. Say it loud and say it proud!

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  31. If Bristol is like her Mom, she’ll be working all the time, in cold weather. Not many pounds on Sarah. Better than Pilates and ultra-dieting.

    Moreover, there is another HUGE factor. Breast Cancer.

    Women who don’t have kids at all have the highest risk. Followed by those who have first kids over 30. Lowest risk? Those who have first kids at age 16-26.

    Moreover, a woman’s fertility and risk of genetic defects in children rises exponentially over age 26. There is a huge difference in the ability to conceive, and conceive without birth defects in a woman of 31 vs. someone just five years younger. This is biological reality. One view on autism is that is the natural result of far more older mothers.

    Part of the huge problem is that women would like to get married younger, and have kids (really, most women would) but demand a “premium” of wealth, power, status to themselves. There are only a few of these Mr. Bigs, so they pursue them and share them. Defacto soft polygamy. Leaving a huge pool of unattached men and themselves in fairly joyless single mother IVF arrangements, or with men who know they are third-fourth choices and predictably act accordingly.

    Young men in Alaska are far more productive than useless, non-wealth generating “creative class” lawyers, financiers, and other masters of the universe. Who don’t catch fish or crab to eat, drill oil to burn, mine coal to burn, or harvest lumber to make into gazillion products. Any productive society that does not reproduce itself ends up like the Fall of Rome, overwhelmed by inferior barbarians who have greater numbers.

    David Alexander — most men would probably prefer hard work outside to the office bs. See “Office Space.” Life as Milton Waddams (without the payout) is not a happy prospect.

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  32. @Whiskey – Just because you’re not intelligent enough to understand the wealth generating factors of efficiency capital and liquidity, doesn’t mean you should assume there aren’t any.

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  33. sara 1 @ 21:

    Actually, I’m doing a brief stint of methenolone acetate, aka oral primobolan, a very safe “finishing” ‘roid, known for its muscle-hardening and “polishing” effects. Seriously!

    So I am feeling just a little more of an edge these days. I’m all cried out.

    I was going to correct your use of “Patick”, except for 2 things: I absurdly kept referring to Alexis as Levi in my post, confusing anybody who bothered to read it, I’m sure, so who am I to judge? And I’m thinking of changing my name anyway by dropping the “at”. Not much different than leaving off the “r”, except in meaning. Which is the point.

    I’m so happy for Hope! There’s enough of weepy me left to congratulate her all over again. That part of me loves babies. The other part just hateshateshateshateshates…

    P.S. I think my leaking fillings are also driving me mad. There’s a toothpaste out there that seals them off. I think I’ll buy it. I love you sara 1.

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  34. I would take Martha Steward’s daughter life. She should adopt, and call it a day. She is the daughter of a billionaire, money money and more money. True freedom in life is only had by the very rich.

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  35. True freedom in life is only had by the very rich.

    TRUTH!

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  36. It is not true that most men want a “real” job that’s backbreaking. Get real–“Office Space” was a hilarious send-up of the dissatisfactions of modern life, and I think it’s really limiting the film’s scope to interpret it just as a What Sucks About Office Jobs satire. Conceivably, someone who worked in any other work enviorment could have felt like Peter Gibbons about his or her own job. So let’s please let’s recognize the glorification of “manly” jobs as the romantic bullshit it unmistakably is.

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  37. If I had a “real” job, how could I waste my company’s money reading Roissy all day?

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  38. By the way, has anyone else noticed that RooshV’s site now auto-forwards to some YouTube video?

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  39. Knocked-Up-Palin-Daughter-Number-One has stubby fingers. She’ll never be a good sax player, or get her fingers around a coke-bottle thick, black…

    Sigh. Where’s Mrs. Grizlickson when you need her.

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  40. PatrickH

    I’m so happy for Hope! There’s enough of weepy me left to congratulate her all over again. That part of me loves babies. The other part just hateshateshateshateshates…

    I am no stranger to hate or that joy you describe. Up to this point, balance hasn’t been my strong point either, and I don’t do drugs, hormone or otherwise. I’m all for natural, even naturally fucked up is better than artificially fucked up. ^_^

    P.S. I think my leaking fillings are also driving me mad. There’s a toothpaste out there that seals them off. I think I’ll buy it. I love you sara 1.

    This is bad news. I can’t imagine any toothpaste that could prevent the outgassing of mercury vapor that occurs when you chew or drink warm liquids. If you can afford it or even if you can’t, get those fillings removed in a SAFE manner. At the risk of being tiresome again; it’s worth it to go through the detox process and go into debt or whatever you have to do to get back to a natural state of health. Anything artificial you do is only going to enslave you. I love you too.

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  41. Knocked-Up-Palin-Daughter-Number-One has stubby fingers

    Yes, she has what I call mommy hands, which implies her hands are awful for blowjobs and other sexual acts.

    OTOH, I suspect they’re useful for holding hands. 🙂

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  42. “which implies her hands are awful for blowjobs”

    Res ipsa loquitur. 🙂

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  43. Some of you commenters on here giving Roissy shit about this post just dont get it.

    The BLUE STATE-White birthrate is getting well below replacement. If women have 1.5 children as an average, the size of the breeding generation gets cut in HALF in approximately 65 years.

    The BLUE STATE white birthrate isn’t quite that low, but its well below 2.1 children per female (the replacement birthrate statistically).

    Roissy is pointing out, VIVIDLY, that the smarter people in this nation, its educated, cultured classes (especially those in blue states) are not replicating themselves and have not been now since the seventies. This does NOT BODE WELL for this nation’s future.

    If you were going to guess who was going to come up with the energy solutions we are going to need, or the environmental, medical, industrial, financial, and technological advancements we will need to be a first world nation in 100 years, who would you think it will come from folks? Its not going to be the children of illiterate, innumerate peasants sneaking across a border who have an average IQ of 85—-it will be boring-white people who have an average IQ of 105. And they are dissapearing—slowly.

    Think about Pompeii. An advanced civilization with art everywhere, a liberated ethos (tons of sex in Pompeii accoring to the art there), sewer-systems, advanced rights for women, beautiful architecture……….a city-state to be proud of. Its gone. They all died in a volcanic eruption.
    It went out unnaturally. But what if the women there only had 1.5 kids each for five successive generations?
    It would have become a village with impressive ruins, ripe for conquest (which means in the old world that it would certainly have been conquered) in about 200 years. Its leading citizens would have been enslaved or worse. New people would move into the old city–and probably trash the place. Sparta was a city state that pretty much went out of existence due to a low birthrate. The Greeks bemoaned their low birthrate as the Romans were ascendant, and the Romans did the same thing as the barbarian invaders from the north overtook Rome. Its the same cycle over and over again. A place gets wealthy, gives women rights and priveledges, and the women quit having enough children to keep the place ticking. The answer is educating the populace on the need to have a replacement birthrate and what it takes to obtain it (2.1 children per female).

    Blue staters should not try to suppress the red-state birthrate (its only about at replacement), but should try to emulate it by starting to have children at about 25 or 26 and not waiting until 32 or 35. Thats the point.

    We have not yet seen the financial consequences in some European nations of low birthrates yet, but we will in another couple of decades. There will be way too many retirees and way too few people replacing them. One worker providing for two geezers does not a strong economy make. Everyone will suffer. Pulling a Bristol Palin doesn’t have to be the answer, but starting your family at 25 isn’t such a radical suggestion is it? Having that third kid isn’t such a drammatic burden is it? It needs to be us folks. Hatian immigrants aren’t going to add advancement to this economy Im afraid, so for those of you who toss out more immigration as a tonic for this delicate problem are wrong and we all know why. Advancements have come from a particular few groups of people—–and civilization as a whole will need those people’s around.

    Martha Stewart, love her or hate her, has been an innovative entrepreneur and her wealth is testament to her value to the economy. Her genetics will dissapear with her daughter. Tesla, perhaps the greatest genius——never had a kid. If he’d have had three kids and his children would have had families of their own, our chances of another Tesla-like genius being born who could have solved energy-problems for humanity would be much much much greater than waiting on a welfare mamma from the barrio’s fifth-out-of-wedlock-kid to do so. Any of you denying that might as well be ostriches sticking your head in the sand at the first sign of something you dont like. Perhaps you should carry around a trowel to dig with for convienience.

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  44. I’ll also add that Bristol is sadly lacking in acrylic nails. 😦

    Remember, acrylic nails can make stubby fingers look sexy…

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  45. does the yuppie girl lifestyle upset you? Are you angry that you cannot do anything about it? FYI they will do what they intend to do…you cannot stop these movements, these sea changes; you can only comment on them and perhaps ejaculate on one of them.

    That is your power.

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  46. “Young men in Alaska are far more productive than useless, non-wealth generating “creative class” lawyers, financiers, and other masters of the universe. Who don’t catch fish or crab to eat, drill oil to burn, mine coal to burn, or harvest lumber to make into gazillion products. Any productive society that does not reproduce itself ends up like the Fall of Rome, overwhelmed by inferior barbarians who have greater numbers.”

    Lawyers aren’t anything great culturally but what you describe in Alaska are still proles. Nothing great about that, never has been. If you are going to glorify proles then yes, inferior barbarians – the proles themselves – will destroy a productive society.

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  47. its educated, cultured classes (especially those in blue states) are not replicating themselves and have not been now since the seventies

    The upper classes have generally viewed high birthrates as a product of the lower classes for nearly a century. Look at the eugenicist movements of the pre-World War II era.

    but starting your family at 25 isn’t such a radical suggestion is it?

    The problem with your scenario is that it prohibits the enjoyment of the fruits of our labour. The whole purpose of working hard is to enjoy one’s life as much as possible.

    The second problem also to deals with the fact that housing costs are too high for a dual income mid-twenties couple to afford without massive state subsidy or support from families. In effect, we blue staters gave up children in order to live more comfortable lifestyles and to fulfill a consumerist desire. Even if I made $40K and I found another female making $30k here in NYC Metro, there’s no way that we could afford to buy a home where even the ghetto black neighbourhoods have homes in the $350K to $400K range.

    Having that third kid isn’t such a drammatic burden is it?

    The marginal costs of third kid may be low in some cases (clothing), but it’s an extra mouth to feed, and an extra child to send to music lessons and then college. Hell, once you have a third kid, you need a frigging minivan or SUV to cart them around instead of a sedan…

    Hatian immigrants aren’t going to add advancement to this economy

    I am the child of Haitian immigrants, so fuck you.

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  48. The higher classes need not be very large to be powerful.

    “Pulling a Bristol Palin doesn’t have to be the answer, but starting your family at 25 isn’t such a radical suggestion is it? Having that third kid isn’t such a drammatic burden is it?”

    I do agree with this.

    My cousin and her husband are both doctors, but they are having their 4th child soon. It may be a pick me up to know they are out there. 🙂

    I think it would help if there were somewhat appartments affordable to a middle class 25yo in areas that had decent schools and were suitable for children, so couples could start a family before their income became high enough to buy a nice house.

    Kind of off topic, but I think Health insurance covers fertility treatments, at least mine does.

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  49. Let’s be honest. It’s REDNECK (I am one myself).

    Rednecks fought and died for this country, so that the British did not run it, the Mexicans lost a good deal of their country, so that the South was crushed and the Union preserved (it was Northern Rednecks vs. Southern Rednecks). Rednecks kicked the Spanish out of the Philippines, and out of Cuba. Kicked the Kaiser out of France, Hitler out of Europe, and fought and died in appalling numbers to keep Tojo from conquering the Pacific (including, yes Alaska, only state occupied by the Japanese and bombed by them too save Hawaii).

    Rednecks form the overwhelming numbers of casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Because Rednecks ask only one thing: a chance to form a family, and in return will fight and die against this nations many, many enemies. Believe me, we have them and always will.

    Rednecks also form most of the great innovations: the Wright Bros., John Moses Browning, Edison, Farnsworth, to name a few. Heck, the guys behind Scaled Composites (Spaceship One) are Rednecks.

    Innovation, talent, IQ, and ability are not going to be found in a narrow, urbanized, “trading” class of WASPs and a few other groups, focused on aristocratic wealth preservation and hostile to risk. As usual in Western society, it will come from new cities and exurbs and such, where hick provincials (Rednecks) take risks on the idea of moveable type or heavier than air powered flying machines. [Dayton OH for the Wrights, Strasbourg-Mainz for Gutenberg.]

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  50. My cousin and her husband are both doctors, but they are having their 4th child soon.

    Yes, but they won’t have luxury foreign made cars, frequent trips overseas, or live in an upper middle class neighbourhood which defeats the entire purpose of spending all those years in medical school.

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  51. “Because Rednecks ask only one thing: a chance to form a family, and in return will fight and die against this nations many, many enemies. Believe me, we have them and always will.”

    That is a good point. A country will always need proles. The tip of the pyramid may be more visible, but it could not exist without its base. The tip gives it shape and purpose, the base gives it mass and support.

    “Yes, but they won’t have luxury foreign made cars, frequent trips overseas, or live in an upper middle class neighbourhood which defeats the entire purpose of spending all those years in medical school.”

    They live in a decent neighbourhood, don’t care much about cars and travelling much is not easy with children that small anyway. I think my cousin’s husband is also specialised in a well paying branch of medicine and they started their family in their late twenties, but the are in their thirties now and thus bring in more than two fresh new doctors would. They may also not have had (much) debt from studying.
    It is a matter of making choices congruent with your values ultimately. A good primary school in the area is important, but the house need not be huge. Children are usually not so interested in faraway travel until they are about 8 and here in Europe there are many fascinating places you can reach by car. Renting a house in southern France and driving there is inexpensive and less stressful than a week in Athens with an infant on your arm.

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  52. on September 5, 2008 at 11:55 pm Days of Broken Arrows

    “Rednecks also form most of the great innovations…”

    You may have a piont here, Whiskey. With one basic computer program, Napster, Shawn Fanning destroyed an entire industry (and then some). My feeling is that Napster was the most influential program in the history of entertainment since it’s fundamentally changed the way the various mediums function.

    Wasn’t Fanning a redneck type? I don’t mean that as an insult either.

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  53. Situation A is all economics. I’m assuming that you need to do one or the other. If you are well off, the 20k is much cheaper than the chick’s name on your finger, considering how a conspicuous tatoo could affect your professional image, as well as your future sex life. Like it or not, tatoos will hurt you in business and social relations as you get older. The boomers could cut their hair, but you echos or gen y’ers or whatever you want to call yourselves are stuck with those tatoos. The Chinese, Germans, everyone will judge you immediately as “proles” unless you get rid of them, and it isn’t as much fun as getting them. If you’re poor instead of the tatoo you’re better off going with the cubic ziconia, then lying with all your heart and throwing her down and giving her the hot beef if she asks where to take it to get adjusted or some such nonsense.

    Situation B, Roissy’s implied argument is strong. If the average woman lives 80 years, she’s a child for roughly 12, a supervised sexual being for 6, then she has, to be very charitable to most American women, 20 years to torture men at her leisure if she’s attractive. That leaves 42 years to stroke the kitty if she hasn’t made a place for yourself in the world as a mother by then.

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  54. she said no saidWhy is the unprettiest one always the one mad as hell?? *rhetorical* Like we did something to her! Hmpf! Yo parents the reason fa yo unhappiness, point all that anger bullshyt in the right direction…

    I agree 100%

    Michael
    By the way, has anyone else noticed that RooshV’s site now auto-forwards to some YouTube video?

    Hackers?

    @Z- One of the reasons why many people work hard to become rich is so they can enjoy life. Having 10 children to monopolize all your time and attention, does not bode well for those who have worked hard to amass a lot of education and/or money. You must take into account that most Americans find boarding schools weird and even cruel to the emotional growth of children. For wealthy families from Britan, boarding schools afford parents a break from their children most of the year. Many Americans also look down upon those who bring in nannies(except NYC) to care for their children.

    Having that third kid isn’t such a drammatic burden is it?

    Harvard is 40,000 a year. How many Americans can afford 120,000 per year for four years.

    Hatian immigrants aren’t going to add advancement to this economy

    I am the child of Haitian immigrants, so fuck you.

    Tell him DA 🙂

    Let’s be honest. It’s REDNECK (I am one myself).

    *hears music in the background*

    I sensed it. FYI, you are usually the most hateful towards blk Americans and other non whites.

    Kicked the Kaiser out of France,/i>
    ?

    Innovation, talent, IQ, and ability are not going to be found in a narrow, urbanized, “trading” class of WASPs and a few other groups, focused on aristocratic wealth preservation and hostile to risk,/i>

    I disagree, that group^^ comes up with and decides almost everything.

    Because Rednecks ask only one thing: a chance to form a family, and in return will fight and die against this nations many, many enemies

    People like you are used as foot soldiers to carry out their will. Behind closed doors, they laugh at you. They give you a few crumbs & a pat on the back while they enjoy the and butter in private.

    I felt sorry for the soldiers who were at the Republican national convention cheering McCain on. To dim to see the light.

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  55. 3 downfalls of America are on this site

    1. Prole glorification as if proletarian lives are some high and worthy ideal (no offense to proles but they are simply a necessary foundation for society, not an ideal)
    2. Decadent sexual activity exemplified by Roissy
    3. elite that allows the first two to happen and thinks its “progress”

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  56. News to many of you, I suppose, but there has always been a sizable minority of people who didn’t reproduce. A fair number of them were even OK with this. And, despite it, humanity’s numbers have boomed impressively.

    Look, not everyone is born to be a parent, including many who wind up as parents. The daddy or mommy who bitterly resents the sacrifices he/she made for their ungrateful kids is not exactly a rare character on the cultural landscape. Neither is the angry child who tailspins off into uselessness; or the heartbroken parent who gave birth to a born-bad child who’s now a criminal or a sponging drug addict.

    As for fantasies of dying fulfilled and surrounded by a huge warm circle of adoring genetic descendents … Er, well, I spent a year making regular visits to a nursing home, and I didn’t see an awful lot of that. I did on the other hand witness a lot of grownup children who wished their parents would die finally, dammit, and grandchildren grossed out by what had become physically of these decrepit old people. As far as I could tell, for most people death is a lonely, disgusting, painful experience.

    And, y’know, the day after you die, what does it matter to you if your genes live on? You aren’t there any longer to know it, let alone enjoy it.

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  57. Another thing?

    Can anyone clear up some confusion I have? I love following this blog, but I’m often baffled by it. It’s like reading about life on a planet that’s quite different than the one I know. Alphas? Betas? Cockblocking? It’s all news to me.

    So I try to make sense of what I’m encountering. Let me see if I’ve got it right. A lot of young guys commenting here seem to feel that, although they’re plausible provider material, they’re being prevented by contempo circumstances from winning girls and starting families.

    Do I have this right? Is this the basic complaint that underlies most of the other complaints and the carrying-on?

    I’m genuinely curious about this, so please don’t think I’m being snide or challenging. If this is the case, it’s fascinating. Back in the day, pairing-off really wasn’t such a fraught, fury-making deal. How and when did this change occur?

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  58. Michael Blowhard —

    “Alphas? Betas? Cockblocking? It’s all news to me.”

    Those are terms from the world of game – broadly shared among it’s now many different gurus and teachers. But they do have real meaning behind them, and it’s not all common sense. There’s a lot of mainstream cultural misinformation (for ideology driven molding purposes) about these things — what makes men and women most attractive in the “dating market”. They aren’t at all the same for each sex, and they aren’t what you’ve been told, or only partly are, and knowing what you haven’t been told is a key advantage.

    I do think there’s been a big change since the 70’s and 80’s which is I think the “back in the day” you’re talking about.

    Mostly: 1) A lot higher percentage of young women now earn comparably to similarly situated men and what’s more, this has seeped into deep cultural awareness amongst them, such that they feel they can afford to delay marriage longer (and should also for status/feminist reasons) and be choosier, with that choice now emphasizing more than ever, esp. for upper half or third girls sexiness in men rather than only or primarily high and stable income.

    2) Again amongst upper half and third girls a number of cultural forces, including feminism but also ever more sexualized media and of course net porn have made the choice of quite promiscuous sexual behavior for girls especially at this stratum to be a valid choice, though perhaps problematic when marriage time comes around. Though this idea is much suppressed by feminists who insist that if guys are studs for sleeping around why aren’t girls — which has it exactly backwards. Girls who give it up real without necessarily having testing out a relationship in mind are going to go for the sexiest guy they can get (alpha), not the reliable or even high earning beta provider.

    3) Although both are choosy though mostly about different things esp. in the casual or pretty casual sex market, attractive women are considerably choosier than attractive men (on average). This leads to a relatively small number of alpha (pretty much why they’re alpha) males getting most approaching all of the high frequency, casual sex outside of a long term relationship or damn good bet at one. Also remember that these 20’s girls feel free to spend that whole decade looking for the “perfect” match (who’s alpha) — so lots of try and discard is fine and expected. All with alphas, or almost — among the arguably hot girls.

    So a small percentage of guys (10-15%?) who are NOT arrayed entirely by money or education are getting the great majority of the action from the hot and attractive girls (25%?). With other males (betas) getting little, and the rest of the girls (who are often pretty fat these days) also getting little.

    Anyway that’s the core view expounded by Roissy relative to your question I think. I think it’s exaggerated, but also rather true.

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  59. The second problem also to deals with the fact that housing costs are too high for a dual income mid-twenties couple to afford without massive state subsidy or support from families. In effect, we blue staters gave up children in order to live more comfortable lifestyles and to fulfill a consumerist desire. Even if I made $40K and I found another female making $30k here in NYC Metro, there’s no way that we could afford to buy a home where even the ghetto black neighbourhoods have homes in the $350K to $400K range.

    Easy solution: ditch the blue states and move to a red state. There are plenty of nice places to live that have much lower costs of living.

    I moved from San Jose, CA to Austin, TX. I don’t own a house, but if I did, the price difference would be nearly a factor of 3 (think $700K vs. $250K). My rent is less than half what I would pay for a comparable place there. Everything else is a good 20% cheaper here too, even before you take into account our not having a state income tax, compared to California’s 9.3% income tax (which the crazy Dems want to raise even higher) — I’ve been shocked when I’ve gone back to CA and looked at the prices in the grocery stores. And Austin is considered “expensive” compared to other places in Texas like Dallas and Houston.

    Oh, and the women here are both more plentiful and higher quality on average. Even leaving pickup aside, Texans in general are much nicer and friendlier than Californians. Much better cultural fit for a Midwesterner like me.

    The real question is why I stayed in California so long.

    Heck, you don’t even necessarily have to pick a red state. There are a few blue states that are affordable, too (though not many).

    Really, the only problem is that too many guilty rich liberals are moving into the red states and then voting for all the same high-tax, high-spending, pro-union policies that ruined the blue states. (Several hundred thousand people, on net, leave California for other states every single year, whereas several hundred thousand people on net enter Texas from other states every year! Shouldn’t this be a sign that California is doing things very, very wrong compared to Texas?) After destroying California, they’re well on their way to taking over Colorado, for example, and they’ll probably wreck Nevada and Arizona next.

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  60. on September 6, 2008 at 9:21 am Marcus Halberstam

    Sometimes this blog is almost comical in the narrow view it takes of society.

    There is a lot more to modern life than mating rituals which evolved tens or hundreds of thousands of years ago. Yes they are still very important, but memetic evolution is now more important than the genetic variety because its a hell of a lot faster.

    Pure status-seeking (not to be confused with other productive activities that also may increase status, such as being a good doctor) is zero-sum; only so many men can be “alfa”. You aren’t doing men as a whole any good by teaching some how to be better status-seekers.

    As a zero-sum game, status-seeking is a complete waste of everyone’s time and resources. Those who lessen the practice of it will (and are) be richer and happier for it. Thats the way forward in the war of the sexes and the prisoners’ dilemma of dating: cooperation. Are many or most women incapable of cooperation? Probably, but so are most men. I’d rather figure out how to find the women that are capable than to try to seduce the ones who aren’t.

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  61. What is missing from these discussions is the concept of love.

    Love, like the sense of humor and the ability to laugh, is an intrinsic part of our biological makeup and, IMHO, important, perhaps essential, for our survival.

    I think that a sense of humor is essential to maintaining a loving relationship. Many things in life are very different from our expectations, including in your relationships. That’s were humor and love intersect.

    Some people decide they will never love again. Imagine deciding that you will never laugh again.

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  62. So a small percentage of guys (10-15%?) who are NOT arrayed entirely by money or education are getting the great majority of the action from the hot and attractive girls (25%?). With other males (betas) getting little, and the rest of the girls (who are often pretty fat these days) also getting little.

    That of course seems to be the conventional wisdom expounded across the blogosphere. On the other hand, the percentage of people who marry or enter long-term relationships hasn’t dropped to much of an extent if at all. Makes you wonder if the conventional wisdom may be off the mark.

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  63. chic: To dim to see the light.

    Ha! There’s the pot calling the kettle black.

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  64. For an a good illustration of where this country, and all prosperous countries go wrong, consider this.

    In the early 1900’s, before WW I, I have read it took only three out of town reporters to cover all of Washington D.C. for the national press. They were usually done gathering their news by noon. They could drop into the White House to see if the President was there and chat with him. Or drop into the War Department. Their best news was usually the Dept of Indian Affairs.

    Now, we save a couple of hundred reporters at a Presidential news conference.

    Imagine all the useless people we have in this country. In various white collar jobs.

    People who pull fish out of the ocean and cut down trees are serving a useful purpose, unlike most lawyers who simply serve to extract wealth from some people and give it to others, taking a 33% cut.

    Speaking of wealth creation, look at the financial collapse brought about by the geniuses on Wall Street. They made billions setting up us proles for a financial clock cleaning.

    So, give me blue collar types anytime.

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  65. Michael Blowhard —

    Oh and adding importantly to the list:

    4) Feminism has now indoctrinated a whole generation of males from school age and younger (moms, media) to be less masculine and more metrosexual or emo (and certainly not bad boy assholes). This still doesn’t work to well among really high testosterone types (alphas) and might not make much difference at the bottom of the male sexual attraction heap, but it makes a big difference in the vast middle.

    Feminist and the much larger group of sorta feminist women (most all who’ve gone or are clearly going to grad school) may APPROVE OF and appreciate this toning down and feminizing of their classmates, work colleagues, LJBF male friends and so on, but they don’t feel burning in their loins for them. Another reason for the rather steep pyramid of who’s getting action these days: small number of alpha males (and attractive female sluts) getting the most, then alpha females not from strict and sexually puritain religious backgrounds — and then the vast pool of betas male and female who aren’t getting so much.

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  66. Yeah, give me those early 1900’s anytime – life expectancy into the mid-to-high 40’s, horse shit clogging the streets, coloreds and wimmins in their natural place. Them’s the good old days. Not like right now, when even in the middle of a huge deflation in the value of our housing stock, the economy continues to grow quarter on quarter, and our “high” unemployment rate would be the envy of any Eurozone country. Crap times we live in, for sure. Oh tempora ! Oh mores !

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  67. joel 64–

    “So, give me blue collar types anytime.”

    Less power and leverage => doing less evil

    I do agree with your observation that we have built far to many layers of bureaucracy, esp. government or government mandated bureaucracy (think HR departments etc.) into our system. All those laws passed each year keep adding to it. Only a few laws from yesteryear are wiped off the books. It just keeps piling up.

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  68. Dougjnn — Thanks, very enlightening. Life has moved on since my own dating and catting-around years, that’s for sure. The sexes (a few wild-eyed feminists aside) didn’t used to be at quite such open war. Most people used to pair up without too, too much trouble. Status-seeking could be a big deal but didn’t have to be. Rigid ranking-systems (1s, 10s, etc) didn’t really exist — there were a few flaming beauties and studs, sure, but for the rest of us a girl or guy could be appealing for any number of reasons.

    It all does leave me wondering why more guys don’t take “zorgan”‘s advice and ditch the big cities, the coastal areas, and leave the high-strung status-seeing girls behind. The country is full of sweet, cute girls who have almost nothing on their minds but having families. Between you and me: A challenge in its own right, no? Borrrrrinnnngggg. But there they are, ripe for the picking. Why do you suppose more guys don’t do this? My own small hunch: 1) they’ve been hurt by these girls, so they obsess about them and can’t let them go. 2) Their brains and tastes have been affected by porn, and they aren’t as open to different kinds of beauty and prettiness as men used to be.

    A great batch of explanations. Tks again.

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  69. 56: Preach it, Michael!!

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  70. 60: Preach it, Marcus!!

    You and Michael are beacons in the gloom.

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  71. dougjnn:

    Feminism has now indoctrinated a whole generation of males from school age and younger (moms, media) to be less masculine and more metrosexual or emo (and certainly not bad boy assholes).

    Feminism has failed to indoctrinate young men with anything. Young men don’t listen to women. They are indoctrinated by older men who hold the strings of power, wealth and yes, women.

    If there is evidence that a whole generation of young men is more “metrosexual or emo” or that there have been substantial numbers of young men who’ve not become “bad boy assholes” because of indoctrination by women, I’d like to see it.

    Numbers, where are the numbers? Has any study found fewer “bad boys” among this generation than say Gen X when they were young? My gen (the Blank Generation…came of age in the ’70s, so forgotten we don’t even have a name)? Young men today are noticeably less masculine than when i was a young man? I don’t see it.

    As I said to Michael over at 2Bs, I’m going to try to substantiate these claims with numbers. I doubt they’re true, actually. But we shall see.

    No disrespect to dougjnn, whose comments were clear and well thought out, and who’s generally a thoughtful and interesting guy. Maybe I’ll find out that he’s right after all.

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  72. Arrgh. Damn! Can I retract that comment and close the f*cking ital?

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  73. As a zero-sum game, status-seeking is a complete waste of everyone’s time and resources.

    Totally agree. On net, it is far better for us all to engage in productive, non-zero-sum activities. Status seeking is hardly the worst zero-sum behavior out there, but it’s not a good thing.

    One could even make a case that a good society is one where institutions are set up in such a way that individuals’ self-interests are harnessed for the good of all in non-zero-sum activities — where institutions punish zero-sum or negative-sum activities to an extent such that they are not lucrative for a purely self-interested individual.

    Now that’s all great. Problem is, say you’re a beta guy who has a lot of good qualities but has never been terribly successful with women. You think you deserve better than the bottom of the barrel and want to do better with women — even if simply so that you have more choices. You may not even just be filtering for looks — it may be part of what you’re filtering for, but, let’s face it, if you want to be selective, you need to start with raw numbers and turn down a lot of women who are not right for you.

    What do you recommend to such a guy? Sit back and hope that he meets someone by blind luck, or go out and be aggressive and get what he wants? Really, that’s all that a lot of “game” boils down to: go out and be aggressive in order to get what you want.

    I’ve seen people claim that “if you really want to meet someone who is a good match for you, don’t go out looking — just live your life the way *you* would live it by yourself, and sooner or later you’ll run into that person without even trying.” It depends on your lifestyle — that may work for some people — but in the general case, I call BS on this claim. If you do not make meeting and attracting women a priority, you will probably not meet and attract very many women, and then you *will* be stuck with “the bottom of the barrel” or just plain old celibacy.

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  74. Easy solution: ditch the blue states and move to a red state.

    1) Red states don’t have winter and salt-water beaches.
    2) Red states don’t have functioning mass transit systems.
    3) Red states aren’t friendly places for black guys who date white women and hang out mostly with other whites.
    4) Red states lack the government bureaucracy that I was going to use as a source of employment.

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  75. Its the same cycle over and over again. A place gets wealthy, gives women rights and priveledges, and the women quit having enough children to keep the place ticking. The answer is educating the populace on the need to have a replacement birthrate and what it takes to obtain it (2.1 children per female).

    this is brilliant. i agree with every word.

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  76. David #74
    friendly places for black guys who date white women and hang out mostly with other whites.

    Another reason why dark skinned people resent light skinned people. I suspect that dark skinned women won’t like dark men dating light women, especially when there is lots of competition for “quality” men.

    You might remember the OJ trial, wherein the white prosecutor was surprised to find out that the dark women on the jury had no problem with spousal abuse (OJ beating his white wife), but resented the white woman (the murder victim) who married that very desirable black man.

    For an example which does not cross color lines but just ethnic lines, you might recall that in Rwanda the ex-pat European men (read wealthy) greatly preferred Tutsi women as their “companions” over the Hutu women. When the genocide got started, the radio shows crowed that now was the time for the Hutu women to get a piece of the action with the wealthy Europeans.

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  77. @David in post 20 wrote:
    “The problem with such a career path is that most employers will not bother employing women in “real” careers because they have children, and employers fear that the women will put their children first.”

    I, personally wouldn’t hire a parent who didn’t put their children first.

    …but this is one of the reasons I work at home. I don’t have to deal with someone panicking because I have to stay home a couple of days with my kid with the flu or something, and I make exactly what I earn without anyone assessing me based on irrelevant things that don’t matter. The only question is can I get the job done in the time it needs to be done in, and that’s it.

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  78. Why do you suppose more guys don’t do this?

    I’d argue that your first reason isn’t too commonplace for many males, and I suspect the second may explain the choices of some males. I really do suspect that some men stay in big urban areas to further their career and income potential, and leaving would be a sign of failure for them. Others are just simply unwilling to become family men so early in their adult lives. Plus, a lot of those country girls are obese, not particularly pretty, and rather boring and uninspiring.

    I suspect that the men of the 1950s who married their wives would never marry them today, and most of them would hold out for “better”.

    I suspect that dark skinned women won’t like dark men dating light women, especially when there is lots of competition for “quality” men.

    Interestingly, some say that some white women hate the Asian female-White male relationships that have blossomed over the past decade or so. Either way, the whole quality myth is overblown given that plenty of loser black guys are dating loser white women. I suspect that I may become example #1 if this relationship develops any further…

    Anecdote Zone 1: I’ve had black women at work give me dirty looks for associating with the white girl.

    Anecdote Zone 2: Allegedly, Haitian women in Canada are mostly unmarried or divorced because most Haitian males are (successfully) dating and marrying white women.

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  79. David A., I don’t know whether you’re right about Haitian women in Canada. I do know that there’s a French-language high school not far from where I live, where there’s a large contingent of Haitian kids; both boys and girls appear to date white or black without too much concern about it.

    It’s funny, but when I was younger, the stereotype I had of inter-racial couples was that they were nearly all black woman/white man pairings. That was what I saw on TV and heard about in popular novels; it was also what I saw at school, but at a time when black people in my part of Canada were so rare that it would have been hard to draw conclusions from it.

    I wonder, was there ever a time when this (white man/black woman) was actually the more common form of inter-racial coupling; I mean, after the end of slavery, before which I expect it really was more common? Or did the stereotype I grew up with just persist because popular entertainment was shy of showing the black man/white woman combination, for whatever reason?

    Clio

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  80. Roissy, I’m a long time reader. Big fan, never really commented because no one really gives a shit what other people have to say. I just wanted to say (even though I know you dont care) That i’m done hearing about Sarah Palin. I see her on the news, shes on digg, and every where else. I came to your web site, hoping to escape the shit that I can’t escape any where else. Your the fucking man, who cares about Sarah Palin or her pregnant daughter. Go back to doing what you do best. Thanks.

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  81. Regarding historical white/black interracial pairings, this might be of interest.

    http://vetinarilord.blogspot.com/2006/01/estimating-african-american-admixture.html

    The very high incidence of European Y chromosomes in New Orleans is of course courtesy of the Haitians, whose genocide drove all surviving whites, along with their black wives, to New Orleans.

    Interesting historical fact. Those blacks born to those pairings were not slaves. New Orleans had a large population of educated, free blacks before the Civil War. They were 2nd class citizens, but not slaves. They owned land and businesses and attended school. They couldn’t hold public office or be an officer of the law.

    Amazing what beta males know. So surprising the girls don’t prefer us. But then, we wouldn’t waste our time reading, then, would we?

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  82. 1) Red states don’t have winter and salt-water beaches.
    2) Red states don’t have functioning mass transit systems.
    3) Red states aren’t friendly places for black guys who date white women and hang out mostly with other whites.
    4) Red states lack the government bureaucracy that I was going to use as a source of employment.

    I’ll take (3) as a legitimate hard requirement. Are (1), (2), and (4) really hard requirements?

    In terms of affordable blue states with a good quality of life, if you like winter, there’s Minnesota and Wisconsin. To me the biggest downside of those states (I’m a Minnesotan by birth) is precisely that, the winter. They’re not terribly racially diverse, but they’re full of guilty white liberals who will fall over themselves trying to be “racially inclusive.” Minnesota does have substantial Somalian and Hmong immigrant populations who have made pretty decent lives for themselves. Both have government jobs up the wazoo (they’re high-tax states). Mass transit is iffy, but life goes on (well, it goes on after you dig your car out of the snow in the 20 below weather — like I said, the winter is the problem).

    Washington/Oregon are also, I think, very nice blue states in terms of quality of life and (relative) affordability.

    I guess it’s all about prioritizing. No place is perfect; if it was, then it’d soon cease to be. So you have to pick what’s important to you, and then accept the good and the bad. By my standards, this is a pretty darn good place to be, and San Jose was a fairly miserable place to be.

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  83. I do know that there’s a French-language high school not far from where I live, where there’s a large contingent of Haitian kids

    That’s interesting. My cousins go to a Catholic francophone school in your “home town”, and most of their class photos seem to show just one or two black children per class with everybody else being mostly white. From the limited experiences of my family up there, the women seem reluctant to date white men, while my male cousins have no real problems with dating white women. Of course, neither the men or women have problems befriending whites since the pool of potential black friends is so small. To a certain extent, it’s why I’ve found Canada so appealing since it doesn’t have the strong racial separatism seen here in the States.

    BTW, are you a Francophone or Anglophone?

    Or did the stereotype I grew up with just persist because popular entertainment was shy of showing the black man/white woman combination, for whatever reason?

    I really do suspect that it’s less controversial to show a black female/white male relationship since it avoids the sexual politics of a black man “stealing” white women. It is admittedly interesting to note that daytime soaps will feature black male/white female relationships, but they’ll avoid abortion as a solution to a unmarried and problematic pregnancy.

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  84. I’ll take (3) as a legitimate hard requirement. Are (1), (2), and (4) really hard requirements?

    (1) is based on the fact that I grew up here in New York where the winters aren’t too terrible and the summers are sometimes tolerable. Plus, my family has lived within 25 miles of the seashore for nearly several generations here in the United States and the Caribbean. Besides, there’s nothing as invigorating as the fresh smell of a sea water beach, especially on a nice wintry day even if one doesn’t know how to swim.

    (2) is because my main hobby and source of fun is riding trains and hating buses. Plus, (2) generally ensures a decent downtown with stuff to do and photograph which is the other hobby. OTOH, I could always lobby for (2) in the new city… 🙂

    (4) is primarily because there isn’t anything else that I’m capable of doing for decent wages…

    The de facto (5) is the need to be close to family members especially since I’m going to end up caring for my parents as they age by default, and they’re not moving anytime soon and the traditional retirement locales like Arizona and Florida will reak havok on one of my parents.

    Washington/Oregon are also, I think, very nice blue states in terms of quality of life and (relative) affordability.

    I liked visiting the Bay Area*, and I would consider a move there if the real estate prices were absurdly high and the ground didn’t shake for the shits and giggles factor. I’ll keep my mind open to Portland and Sea-Tac when I visit their respective rail systems in 2010. You’re the second person to recommend the Pacific Northwest as an alternative locale.

    Interestingly, my alternate strategy for New York was to work in NYC and commute from lower cost Philadelphia via Amtrak. Amtrak is comfortable enough for a relatively nice 1.5 hr journey each way, and the trip isn’t boring with an iPhone or a laptop connected to a cellphone network. 🙂

    *This is in contrast to Atlanta which I never liked at all.

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  85. To a certain extent, it’s why I’ve found Canada so appealing since it doesn’t have the strong racial separatism seen here in the States.

    i doubt this is because of the ‘basic goodness’ of canadian people versus the fact that canada has so few black people. if more black people like u move there, canada might not seem so hospitable. i’m just stating a politically incorrect fact, not trying to say one group is ‘better’ than another here.

    like roissy said, proximity + diversity = war and the only possible exception to this is if the differing groups are similar in terms of iq. dr. putnam of harvard did a definitive, expansive study that showed that the more contact different groups have with each other, the more distrust goes up as a consequence:

    http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/the_downside_of_diversity/

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  86. Red states aren’t friendly places for black guys who date white women and hang out mostly with other whites.

    Why are black guys so into dating women of other races? Serious question. A question to black women: do you mind, or do you accept that?

    This is a taboo, because every human being, regardless of race, wants to have grandchildren who look like he does. And when your grandchild looks like something Angelina Jolie may have adopted, well, like you were robbed after all those years you put into raising your daughter.

    Which may explain that I’ve found that white girls who have children with blacks often either don’t have fathers, or have weak ones, extremes being alcoholic loser or too liberal to object.

    My position on interracial dating, if anyone cares? No problem, as long as the girl’s father is OK with it.

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  87. This is a taboo, because every human being, regardless of race, wants to have grandchildren who look like he does. And when your grandchild looks like something Angelina Jolie may have adopted, well, like you were robbed after all those years you put into raising your daughter.

    not necessarily, there may be for various reasons significant exceptions to this. for example, if u r non- white and grow up in the anglosphere, u may believe that white features are the ‘best’ and want ur kids to have those features over yours.

    i’m sure somebody going to go ape shit over this but it happens. the opposite might happen too, btw.

    i’m sure a lot of the irritation over interracial mating likely has to do with people from whatever group worrying that the frequency of certain phenotypes they desire will diminish with increased interracial procreation.

    btw, i’ve seen non- whites and whites who don’t like interracial mating sometimes say as much. muhammed ali, for example, said he doesn’t like interracial relationships for this reason- although it’s obvious his most recent wife has at least some non- black blood, just like muhammed ali!
    http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/57543635.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1939847EC77F5F8D1CE3BC6278DFCA668ABA40A659CEC4C8CB6

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  88. another thing, if u r a white guy who’s pissed off at interracial dating, keep in mind- every single heterogenous country seems to prize white features over others. specifically, i can cite india, the middle east and latin america. like steve sailer said, if u didn’t know where mexico was on a map and just watched univision, u’d think it was in the baltic. i could make a similar sort of argument with india and bollywood.

    if u r going to argue that this is just because of elite caucasions controlling everything (like they usually do) then i guess u must be saying that the ‘brown masses’ in india or latin america are too stupid and effete to even get actors and actresses on the screen that can more look like them! can’t have it both ways!

    my take- if the ‘brown masses’ wanted more actors, actresses and singers to look more like them, they’d force this change. for whatever reason, the ‘brown masses’ lke things as they are with the most caucasoidal men and women represented.

    so, back to interracial mating in america. for those whites who don’t like it, stick around in another 20-50 yrs. barring voluntary genetic engineering changing things, if your phenotype is more ‘rare,’ you will likely be more highly prized by american society considering the present day racial situation in heterogenous regions like india, the middle east and latin america.

    now, i await the usual ‘fuck you, you’re racist!’ comments from the shrew contingency of roissy to attack me for no reason other than saying politically incorrect truths.

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  89. Why are black guys so into dating women of other races?

    Anecdotal Theories:

    1) Other women are prettier or better looking than black women.
    2) Other women are more feminine than black women.
    3) Black women are “bitchy”, other women are not.
    4) Marrying into another culture is a sign of success since black women are deemed to worth less.
    5) Easier to pump and dump when compared to black women.
    6) The kids could have white features.
    7) “Oreo” men find it easier to court white women than the vast majority of non-“oreo” black women.

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  90. 8) Nappy hair…big turn off. Soft, silky hair, strokable and playable-with…big turn on.

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  91. Interesting seven points David. Thanks!

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  92. Fun book by the super-talented Afro-Caribbean-Canadian Dany Laferriere: “How to Make Love to a Negro.” Very enjoyable, Beat-style sex comedy. Basically: hip white girls basically throw themselves at the black writer-protagonist, entirely because hip white girls love the idea of making it with a black dude. Black hero realizes they aren’t really seeing or dealing with him, just with him as a symbol of their fantasies — but, hey, that’s cool, he’s still getting laid by a lot of pretty girls.

    What’s really great and fresh about the book is that Laferriere deals with it all in a cool, wry, sophisticated, epigrammatic, stylish French way. He doesn’t get angry or political, he doesn’t go on and on about race and/or theory. This is just what life is, eh? Funny, non? And pretty sexy…

    Laferriere doesn’t seem interested in the kid thing, to put it mildly. But he’s awfully good on sex.

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  93. 79 Clio and DA too:

    I believe Steve Sailer had something a fair while ago (can’t find it now) that white man / black woman pairings were more common, say, 50 years ago than the reverse, while today the ratio in the States is 3/4 black man/white woman pairings to the complement.

    Reason for change: black men’s economic standing has improved enough that there are now sufficient numbers of black men able to provide. Why has the ratio shifted not to parity, but the other way? My guess: black men are more attracted to white women and white women to black men, than white men are attracted to black women and (especially) black women attracted to white men. Black women have a rep for just not being interested in anyone but black men for partners. Too bad…narrows their prospects, leaving them to stay at home seething, while “their” Black Men (they capitalize the name…maybe they think it will make black men like them more) head on out the door for an evening of Ride the White Pony.

    Up here in Canada, I see far more black man/white woman pairings on the street than the opposite, though far, far more of both than I’ve ever seen in any American city I’ve been in. Way less segregation on the friendship front too. I would say, again anecdotally, that the UK is less segregated black/white romantically than Canada, though not by much, with both vastly more integrated than the States. It’s actually shocking to see how unintegrated the US is, even in the North. I’m a racist, but it actually depresses me when I see how bad it is down in your neck of the woods. Montreal seems a little less segregated than my home town, with les Quebecois (men and women) seeming a little more open to taking a walk on the Dark Side.

    [Just to blather on and on–sorry–I wonder if Francophone countries, including Quebec, may be less sensitive to racial crossing than linguistic admixture. Quebecois might (might!) be more offended by a Francophone/Anglophone pairing than a black/white one, e.g., with a Haitian. Our Governor General is a mixture, but essentially a Franco Haitian black woman (hot! hot! hot!) and her hubby’s a white Quebecker. They were both involved in Quebec separatism.]

    Class is important though. Many of the black men partnered up with white women that I see, especially when they’re pushing a pram, look professional to me. The ones that don’t look professional seem to be with frumpy project-type girls, the ones who used to be what we call up here in my home town, “Vanier cute”, after a low-rent neighbourhood in the eastern core of the city. Or maybe not even that…always the frump.

    Class too on friendships. Lots of college/professional black/white friendships around. Not so many as you move down the social ladder…though again, nothing like the segregation down south. And lots of blacks here in my home town are African, specifically East African. Different look and feel than the other main grouping, Caribbean blacks. Toronto is C dominated (IMO) not A, and I get the impression, again subjective, that there is more segregation there than here.

    All anecdotal, but sincere.

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  94. dany laferriere would not do anywhere near as well outside the anglosphere, like in india (the more progressive parts, of course). he will no longer be the unique, charismatic non-white guy in a ‘white’ country. in ‘brown’ countries he’ll just be one of the masses, and an extremely unattractive one at that looking at the pics of him online. i wouldn’t have said he’s unattractive if he looked like this black dude:
    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005431/

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  95. And lots of blacks here in my home town are African, specifically East African.

    a prior east african friend of mine made it a point to say how vastly ‘different’ he was to american blacks. how east african women, like maybe somalian and ethiopian ones, looked a lot hotter than the average american black women. how if east africans ‘mated’ with whites, they’d produce ‘white’ kids, unlike most american black/white unions. before anybody gets angry, this was one guy’s opinion, and i’m only bringing it up in this context. but, ayaan hirsi ali would probably turn some heads in even this socially more segregated country:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali

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  96. Just back to say that I didn’t intend to imply that Canada’s relative lack of segregation of the races is evidence of our moral superiority, but at the same time, I think it’s too simple to say that it’s the result of the smaller numbers of people of colour.

    Most important point: We didn’t have slavery here except in the tiniest numbers, and most black people in Canada are not the descendants of Canadian slaves; in fact, probably almost none. That again was not a mark of our moral superiority, but the result of the fact that Canada is not suitable for plantation-style agriculture, so slavery was never economically appealing. If it had been, I imagine our ancestors would have overcome their scruples about it. But the lack of a history of slave-owning means that black people here do not look with resentment on “white” institutions; do not see them as exclusively white.*

    Second most important point: We didn’t need a bloody war to bring slavery to an end. The Civil War and its huge loss of life greatly increased the hostility of southern whites to black people, and even, I suspect, some northern whites, esp. recent immigrants, who couldn’t understand what all the fuss was about.

    *This has repercussions everywhere. One of the things I was always conscious of when I lived in DC was that a black person working in a retail or service job would not smile or engage in chit-chat with me in the way I was used to in Canada from shop clerks, etc., of whatever colour. Stony-faced politeness was the best I could expect.

    For example: My building had two concierge/doormen types who were black. One was Cameroonian – friendly, genial, talkative. One was African-American, and it took me six months to get him to greet me as if I were a fellow-human. I wasn’t trying to be best buddies with him or anything like that – that wd be an imposition. I just wanted not to feel as if I were talking to a robot. Eventually he began to nod and smile when I passed him in the front office. I suppose this is all about not wanting to be servile to the Enemy.

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  97. Just back to say that I didn’t intend to imply that Canada’s relative lack of segregation of the races is evidence of our moral superiority, but at the same time, I think it’s too simple to say that it’s the result of the smaller numbers of people of colour.

    Most important point: We didn’t have slavery here except in the tiniest numbers, and most black people in Canada are not the descendants of Canadian slaves; in fact, probably almost none. That again was not a mark of our moral superiority, but the result of the fact that Canada is not suitable for plantation-style agriculture, so slavery was never economically appealing. If it had been, I imagine our ancestors would have overcome their scruples about it. But the lack of a history of slave-owning means that black people here do not look with resentment on “white” institutions; do not see them as exclusively white.*

    Second most important point: We didn’t need a bloody war to bring slavery to an end. The Civil War and its huge loss of life greatly increased the hostility of southern whites to black people, and even, I suspect, of some northern whites, too, esp. recent immigrants who couldn’t understand what all the fuss was about.

    *This has repercussions everywhere. One of the things I was always conscious of when I lived in DC was that a black person working in a retail or service job would not smile or engage in chit-chat with me in the way I was used to in Canada from shop clerks, etc., of whatever colour. Stony-faced politeness was the best I could expect.

    For example: My building had two concierge/doormen types who were black. One was Cameroonian – friendly, genial, talkative. One was African-American, and it took me six months to get him to greet me as if I were a fellow-human. I wasn’t trying to be best buddies with him or anything like that – that wd be an imposition. I just wanted not to feel as if I were talking to a robot. Eventually he began to nod and smile when I passed him in the front office. I suppose this is all about not wanting to be servile to the Enemy.

    Clio

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  98. It’s funny, but when I was younger, the stereotype I had of inter-racial couples was that they were nearly all black woman/white man pairings.

    Couples of that sort are said to be quite common in the U.S. military. I don’t know if there are any statistics or just anecdotes.

    Minnesota does have substantial Somalian and Hmong immigrant populations who have made pretty decent lives for themselves.

    That’s certainly not what I’ve heard about the Hmong. By most accounts they’re the worst-off Asian group in America.

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  99. Nappy hair…big turn off. Soft, silky hair, strokable and playable-with…big turn on.

    I completely forgot to add the hair stuff too…

    Black women have a rep for just not being interested in anyone but black men for partners.

    With the exception of my Ivy League educated cousin who married the upper middle class Australian, most of my female cousins have been holding out for a black guy. Interestingly, I have noted that they also seem to have more Afro-centric leanings than my male cousins and I have.

    It’s actually shocking to see how unintegrated the US is, even in the North.

    I’ve always wondered if it’s been the factor of the economies of scale in the US. The overall black population is higher per capita in most US metro areas, so it’s much easier to develop, maintain, and stay within the black community. My cousins in Canada are frequently shocked at how many “black-only” spaces exist within the US, while they live in mostly white neighbourhoods with no trouble at all. In contrast, I’m the only the only black person on my block, and I’m freaking out, yet my old neighbours in my old mostly black area bothered me to no end.

    I’m a racist, but it actually depresses me when I see how bad it is down in your neck of the woods.

    Why? One would suspect that a racist would want as little mixing as possible…

    Franco Haitian black woman (hot! hot! hot!)

    The openly admitted racist thinks Michaelle Jean is hot. I am shocked…

    “Vanier cute”, after a low-rent neighbourhood in the eastern core of the city.

    I’m probably one of the few people here who’s been to Vanier in Ottawa. Hell, I rode the OCTranspo Busway. For those who don’t know, Vanier is a “dangerous” part of Ottawa, but because it’s Canadian, it’s nowhere near as dangerous as a bad neighbourhood in the States.

    I’ve noted a similar trend as well. Most stay within class, but the lower class white girls really do come across as the reject women that the white guys didn’t want. That factor alone is why I’ve ultra-selective about the women that I meet, as I’d prefer to avoid dating the rejects that white men didn’t want.

    And lots of blacks here in my home town are African, specifically East African.

    I haven’t been there in nearly three years, and IMHO, it seemed that most of the blacks were mostly Haitians with a smaller group of Somalis who the Haitians looked down upon for being criminally inclined and lazy.

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  100. most black people in Canada are not the descendants of Canadian slaves; in fact, probably almost none

    Actually, Clio, if you head out to Nova Scotia, you’ll find a few slave descendents, but most of them were house servants, not plantation field hands for the reasons that you stated. The few do exist are simply those who weren’t sent back to Africa via voluntary and involuntary means.

    But the lack of a history of slave-owning means that black people here do not look with resentment on “white” institutions; do not see them as exclusively white.*

    The big difference is that Canada’s black population is mostly foreign born and composed mostly of people who came to Canada by choice. When you add that to the other factors that were mentioned, and it certain can explain the difference.

    One of the things I was always conscious of when I lived in DC was that a black person working in a retail or service job would not smile or engage in chit-chat with me in the way I was used to in Canada from shop clerks

    One factor at play is that the immense gulf between the rich and working class in the United States exacerbates the feelings of animosity of poorer blacks towards richer whites. The second factor is that some in the United States have noted that the upper middle class tend to have more contempt for the lower classes than their upper class due to their belief in meritocracy. In other words, they treat the retail clerks poorly because they feel the clerks are simply too lazy to do better and work hard to become rich like that did. If true, I would imagine that would create some considerable resentment as well.

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  101. I hear you as far as the black male attraction to the white female: the silky hair, the whiter children. But why don’t black women seem to feel the same pull toward white men?

    If it’s all about wanting whiter children, than black women should be wanting the same thing as the black guys, right?

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  102. DA, I’m a racist in the sense that I believe there is something (a great big something) to the position that there are significant differences in IQ between racial groups, including between blacks and whites, and that genetic variance between groups contributes to the manifested IQ differences. There may be other cognitive and behavioural differences between racial groupings also influenced by genetic differences. This position is, IMO, the sine qua non of intellectual racism, of which I must therefore consider myself a proponent.

    I am, however, not much of a bigot. I feel most uncomfortable in whitebread suburbia, and live in downtown Ottawa in a building that is probably 1/3 white, with the rest being immigrant and ethnic-heavy, with a significant portion of all residents who are mentally or physically challenged (my landlord is an org of granola-eating left-wingers whom I worship with a passion, and who practice “radical inclusivity” as one of their central renting practices).

    I only feel comfortable in heavily multicultural neighborhoods, especially if they have a “raffish” air about them. I’ve lived downtown virtually my entire adult life, and have never owned a car, for example.

    So…I am a true blue racist, but not much of a bigot. Sounds impossible, but it seems to be true of me. Hence the depression over segregation down south, and my lust for Michaelle Jean. Too many white faces around brings me down.

    Hah! I’m as marginal and eccentric a character in my own way as you, David.

    I admit I’m not too sure about the predominance of Haitians in my home town, but I don’t have hard numbers. It’s just that I’ve encountered so many Somalis, Ethiopians, Tigreans (!), and Kenyans that I tend to think of East Africa as the source of most of our black people.

    With many of the non-Somalis being professionals…lawyers, a lot of them. Despite that, as Clio says, friendly, polite in a sweet, cultivated almost Old World way, and devoid even at the subliminal level of any signals that indicate any racial hostility or animosity at all toward white people.

    Unlike say Jamaicans, and sorry, American blacks, a remarkably surly harsh cold group. Especially the women. Awful. Sorry. But just f*cking awful rude surly sulking people. Yuck.

    Reason #3, David. Sad but true.

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  103. Oh, and the full title of Dany Lafreniere’s book is “How to make love to a Negro without getting tired”, which is a very funny title indeed…especially so if you read the book. Made into a really terrible movie, sad to say. Book’s much better.

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  104. That’s certainly not what I’ve heard about the Hmong. By most accounts they’re the worst-off Asian group in America.

    Larry Auster on his blog linked to a whole series of especially savage acts by the Hmong in Minnesota. Attacks on female jogges, execution-style killings of random gas-station customers and clerks.

    Of course, they’ve all been settled there and aided by “Christian” groups, in truth doing Satan’s work.

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  105. DA, I’m a racist in the sense that I believe there is something (a great big something) to the position that there are significant differences in IQ between racial groups, including between blacks and whites, and that genetic variance between groups contributes to the manifested IQ differences.

    u’d have to have severe cognitive distortion to have read the actual literature and not come away with such a viewpoint about nature’s politically incorrect truths. however, stop calling urself a ‘racist,’ when u, sir, are a true blue ‘race realist!’

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  106. If it’s all about wanting whiter children, than black women should be wanting the same thing as the black guys, right?

    As I said earlier, from my personal anecdotes, the young black women of my family have heavy leanings towards Afro-centrism, so I suspect that the last thing black women want are whiter kids.

    @ 102 Patrick H

    In other words, you’re one of the race realists that I fear on a daily basis.

    Still though, I don’t understand how you don’t feel comfortable when you’re in mostly white areas when you feel that other groups have genetic differences that create IQ differences. Quite frankly, I’m amazed you’re not fearful of or spiteful towards said minorities like the other racist/race realists.

    I admit I’m not too sure about the predominance of Haitians in my home town

    As I said, I haven’t been to Ottawa in nearly four or five years, but it seemed to me that most of the black people were Haitian. OTOH, I suspect that my sampling may be biased.

    Unlike say Jamaicans, and sorry, American blacks, a remarkably surly harsh cold group. Especially the women.

    Amongst Caribbeans, it’s commonplace to hear insults against Jamaicans, and how they’re every negative stereotype possible. I still know of many Haitian families who refuse to allow their children to date Jamaicans or African-Americans.

    As for reason #3, a intelligent, humorous, beautiful, sweet, and cuddly girl from Barbados simply reminds me that there are plenty of non-bitchy beautiful black women if simply look and keep an open mind. I still miss that girl… 😦

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  107. so I suspect that the last thing black women want are whiter kids.

    considering that black men in america seem to have a preference for lighter featured and/or caucsaoid featured black women (beyonce, halle berry, whitney), black chicks would do well to consider acquiring these ‘traits’ genetically by any means necessary.

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  108. The Haitians in Ottawa don’t tend to live downtown, but in the suburbs, and they gravitate to the more French-speaking suburbs in the east end of the city.

    Some of the black people in Ottawa (esp. in my suburb) come from French West Africa – Senegal, the Ivory Coast. The rector at the Cathedrale de Notre Dame was from the Congo; he’s since gone on to another diocese, I think.

    By the way, DA, it was my understanding that the inhabitants of the old black Nova Scotian enclave were not originally descended from Canadian slaves, but from black American Loyalists. They received a land grant (of very poor land) as a reward for their loyalty to Britain during the American Revolution.

    Clio

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  109. 106 David Alexander:

    Amongst Caribbeans, it’s commonplace to hear insults against Jamaicans, and how they’re every negative stereotype possible. I still know of many Haitian families who refuse to allow their children to date Jamaicans or African-Americans.

    I used to work in a predominantly black neighborhood, full of section 8 housing (I am a telephone lineman and DSL field technician). That experience more than anything else is what became the entering wedge for my eventual acceptance of “race realism.”

    This part of the city was evenly divided into 1/3 African-American, 1/3 Jamaican, and 1/3 Haitian.

    I have never met a more god-awful bunch of people than *female* Jamaicans. The worst sort of rudeness, arrogance and “attitude” I have ever encountered. The stereotype is based in fact. To their credit, the Jamaicans do have a strong work ethic, moreso than your typical african-american, however, this pride tends to transmogrify into an unappealing interpersonal quality.

    Contrariwise, the Haitians, who by all accounts are poorer, lower-class and evince some unsavory personal grooming habits, were without fail congenial, respectful, and pleasant to be around, despite my inability to understand Creole.

    In addition, the women often had the most *exquisite* bone structure, truly stunning in fact. I saw some real beauties.

    If they only learned to shave their armpits…

    TC

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  110. The Haitians in Ottawa don’t tend to live downtown, but in the suburbs, and they gravitate to the more French-speaking suburbs in the east end of the city.

    Or they live in Gatineau/Hull which is Frenchland. 😛

    BTW, my cousins live in Gloucester east of the Queensway. A few of their neighbours in their condo appear to be Francophones.

    it was my understanding that the inhabitants of the old black Nova Scotian enclave were not originally descended from Canadian slaves, but from black American Loyalists

    From what I’ve read, both populations were eventually encouraged to leave Atlantic Canada for Sierra Leone, and that the current population is a mix of both groups.

    That experience more than anything else is what became the entering wedge for my eventual acceptance of “race realism.”

    Let me guess, you hate black people too?

    The stereotype is based in fact.

    Rumour amongst Caribbeans is that the Jamaicans and African-American are the unwanted slaves that were unwanted on the other islands. Generally, Jamaican and various American ports were presumed to be the last ports of call for slave trading ships.

    Haitians tend to be poorer than their Caribbean counterparts primarily because unlike Jamaicans, many Haitians come with weak or no English skills. I suspect that the Haitian immigrants that you met were a part of the “second wave” who are considered to be peasants and other lower class types. My parents were a part of the first wave that were chased out during the 1970s and 1980s, and this group was composed mostly of “middle class” and mulatto Haitians fleeing the country.

    Interestingly, Haiti is an outlier by Caribbean standards as it’s considerably poorer than most other nations in that region, and Jamaica’s GDP per capita is nearly four times Haiti’s GDP per capita, and by African standards, Jamaica would be one of the richest countries. Mind you, that’s still low when compared to Barbados, which is the third richest nation if you use GDP per capita as a metric.

    BTW, most Haitian women in the US shave their armpits as far as I know…

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  111. DA, I live in Miami.

    Let me guess, you hate black people too?

    I judge each individual on his own merits.

    However, I recognize that each group has its upper and lower tiers, and that if I belong to the lower tier of one group, I may well bond with the upper tiers of another group.

    Yet, I do recognize inate differences between groups in the abstract, if that is what you mean by “hate.”

    BTW, most Haitian women in the US shave their armpits as far as I know…

    Not in Ft. Lauderdale, apparently. At least in the poorer neighborhoods.

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  112. on September 7, 2008 at 5:57 am somebody from half sigma's blog

    Yet, I do recognize inate differences between groups in the abstract, if that is what you mean by “hate.”

    believing in race realism due to the overwhelming scientific literature on the subject is enough for the left wingers to say that you are a racist. it, of course, dilutes the term, poisons the debate and only provides more reason to AVOID LIKE A FUCKING PLAGUE these left wing loons in your social life.

    having a debate with the average left wing loon online is one thing. having the same debate with these nut cases in real life leads to the left winger engaging in histrionics and likely attempting to cause serious adverse effects to your job/personal life.

    ask yourself if it’s really worth it when there are so many other people to talk to and (probably hotter) women to fuck?

    if you want to keep trying to appeal to a left winger’s supposed ‘logical’ side, all i have to say is, ‘I bid you good day.’

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  113. 112 sfhsb:

    I assure you I am well aware of the futility of engaging in any sort of race-realism debate in real life, but I’ve learned the same applies to most disagreements… over politics…or religion….or *anything* really. In my personal life I’ve learned it’s best to smile and nod when the idiots are talking — reality is the last thing anyone wants to talk about.

    I only make my points to DA because it is quite apparent he is not your stereotypical “nigger” and is quite intelligent and honest. He just has a chip on his shoulder, and I do not begrudge him that. After all, who here can say there is no one above them, or more powerful, or more influential? There is *always* someone pulling *your* strings.

    We all must learn to acquiesce to our lot in life — without giving into defeatism or laziness.

    TC

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  114. I’m a long time reader but dont ever comment.
    Just felt like it this time with the current discussion on inter-racial dating and Canada.
    I’m an Australian white girl who most of her life was pretty oblivious to racism. It never effected me personally and I never really witnessed it in others.
    After uni I went and lived in Ottawa, Canada for a year (years working holiday visa thing) and while i was there I dated a Canadian/Nigerian guy. I suppose you could say he was something of an Oreo, though i dont like that term very much, as he dressed very white, spoke very properly ( more so than me), didnt drink, never swore, listed to music from the 90s grunge era – not your typical “black guy”. Most of his friends were white also, and he was phD student. Being with him in public though really opened my eyes to all kinds of racism. Especially from black women! The dirty looks I’d get from complete strangers was just frightening! I also had black men giving me approving looks.
    What really freaked me out though was being stopped by the police and being asked if i was ok (we were walking together at night). WHat is with that? Oh, and a bus driver calling him “boy”.
    So, so shocked by all this. Despite this , I enjoyed dating a black man. He was lovely to me, very gentlemanly but also very manly in general. Much more so than any white boys i’ve dated. He was lovely in all ways really (except having a major problem with being on time!)
    Funny about the black women – he said he had never found any black women who were willing to date him. Yet they hated it when he went out with white girls! Weird.

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  115. a prior east african friend of mine made it a point to say how vastly ‘different’ he was to american blacks. how east african women, like maybe somalian and ethiopian ones, looked a lot hotter than the average american black women. how if east africans ‘mated’ with whites, they’d produce ‘white’ kids, unlike most american black/white unions. before anybody gets angry, this was one guy’s opinion,

    I’ve had many Somali men tell me basically the same thing about East African facial features. Apparently a lot of them feel that they’re not really negroes but instead really dark Caucasians. Without fail these men also have had the same opinion of those people they do consider negroes as white racists do – primitive, stupid, violent but still somehow magically able to steal their women.

    I’ve ran into an ongoing Helsinki gang war between Somalis and Nigerians multiple times. From what I’ve heard I got the impression that it started because Nigerian guys have been seen together with Somali girls…

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  116. 89 David Alexander

    Why are black guys so into dating women of other races?

    Anecdotal Theories:

    1) Other women are prettier or better looking than black women.
    2) Other women are more feminine than black women.
    3) Black women are “bitchy”, other women are not.
    4) Marrying into another culture is a sign of success since black women are deemed to worth less.
    5) Easier to pump and dump when compared to black women.
    6) The kids could have white features.
    7) “Oreo” men find it easier to court white women than the vast majority of non-”oreo” black women.

    -on your number 5, I would strongly disagree. Ghetto black women are probably the easiest in the country before anyone else. But let me tell you a better reason than the ones you listed for this phenomenon, and possibly a key reason for the White male – asian female mix: Obesity – something Roissy earlier pointed out.

    Statistically, and anecdotally, 2/3rds of black women are overweight, which is why I always seem to wonder where the good looking black girls are – they’ve become giant blobs. Second to that anecdotally is the whites (although the hispanic may be the real #2, but in my area they aren’t). I see a lot of plump whites, where I work they can’t seem to stop talking about and eating food. Thus a potential reason for White male-asian female (although i’m sure you can argue for other reasons along with). How many really fat Asians do you ever see?

    Even the occasional obese Asian is nowhere near the behemoths you see with blacks and whites.

    Personally of all Roissy’s posts the obesity one may be the best, because obesity ruins attraction for males and also increases competition for normal sized females.

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  117. If they only learned to shave their armpits…

    Hmmm, if they don’t shave their armpits, they certainly don’t shave …. now where is this neighborhood again?

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  118. “I am the child of Haitian immigrants, so fuck you.”

    You are a child of upper class Haitian immigrants.

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  119. stop calling urself a ‘racist,’ when u, sir, are a true blue ‘race realist!’

    Doesn’t do me any good, so I might as well do my bit to take ownership of the term, which is rapidly being rendered meaningless. You know the joke in the Sailersphere:

    Racist (def.): Someone winning an argument with a liberal.

    I win arguments with liberals all the time. And which point out comes the R-word. Time to start shrugging when we’re called that, and say, “And? Now what?” Double-shrug.

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  120. DA: Still though, I don’t understand how you don’t feel comfortable when you’re in mostly white areas when you feel that other groups have genetic differences that create IQ differences.

    I have a background in psychometrics, which is where I first found out about the reality of IQ differences between races. Psychometricians understand that IQ is important, but not decisive, especially morally.

    And secondly, I live in areas full of the intellectually marginal. All races are represented in these groups (but consider my apt bldg: lots of mentally handicapped admitted because of that fact, and who are disproportionately white, non-handicapped whites generally not living here in large numbers by definition and by policy, lots of non-whites admitted for the ethnic reason and therefore NOT especially likely to be handicapped or deficient mentally; so you see DA, it’s actually MORE likely for me to see smart minorities and dumb whites than the IQ distributions in general would predict…interesting artifact of my landlord’s socialist policies). Downtown is so full of the weird and wild and wooly that race just seems kinda background noise.

    As for discomfort in suburbia, it’s not really because they’re white out there, it’s that they’re suburban, and I’ve always hated the burbs with every cell in my body. Correlation in this case has produced some Pavlovian learning that is not in sync with my academic racism.

    But that’s how it’s worked out for me.

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  121. DA: Rumour amongst Caribbeans is that the Jamaicans and African-American are the unwanted slaves that were unwanted on the other islands. Generally, Jamaican and various American ports were presumed to be the last ports of call for slave trading ships.

    Interesting theory linked to by Satan–I mean Steve Sailer of course!–that Jamaicans are descendants of the slaves dropped off at the end of the slave routes, and therefore underwent the selection process of the slave death ships for longer than other island blacks. Hence, higher Testosterone levels (led to better survival rates) and hence in turn other traits associated with the lovely, lovely people of Jamaica, such as violent crime, rape, etc, etc. And great sprinters!

    In TO, the concern about the surge of gun crime has caused many to point the finger at blacks in general, not at the Jamaican groups largely responsible. These other blacks, Antiguans, Trinidadians, apparently detest Jamaicans for, ah, tarring them with the same brush. Pardon me.

    I believe, but do not know, that groups like Trinidadians in TO are not especially violent. So it seems they might have a case against the J’s.

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  122. ozgal: Being with him in public though really opened my eyes to all kinds of racism. Especially from black women! The dirty looks I’d get from complete strangers was just frightening!

    I think it’s safe to say that many black women HATE white women who date black men. I mean HATE them. You.

    Bus drivers can be pigs. He should have complained. Or maybe not. Life is tough and there are too many complainers around.

    Glad to hear he had lots of white friends, though. That seems pretty typical of professional/academic blacks in Ottawa…they don’t seem ghettoized at all.

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  123. A quick word of appreciation for everyone here who’s discussing lore and experience where race and background are concerned, and especially David Alexander, who, as far as I’m concerned, is doing a lot of heroic educating. Diffs between Haitians and Jamaicans? I’d had no idea, and now I know, at least a little. Much appreciated.

    Personally I see the “diffs between the races” thing very cheerfully. There’s a lot of variety in the world — cool!

    Here’s what really puzzles me: Why on earth would anyone expect different population groups to be identical except for skin color? That’s something I never grok. I mean, really: Would you expect Polynesians to be exactly identical in all ways except skin color to, say, Tibetans? I certainly wouldn’t. It just seems so unlikely.

    (Incidentally, I do understand that people can get sore about these things — obviously. Great fun having your talents appreciated, but not so much fun having your deficits dwelled on. And managing these difference and population-group matters is obviously a big challenge. It seems to me more a practical question than it does an ideological one, though. And I think the “denial” approach to handling these questions has long outlived its usefulness. I think it has driven people crazy for decades, to be frank. Nice that we have venues like this one to compare notes and be forthright and learn things, and learn things as well about how to communicate about these matters in a fun and helpful way.)

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  124. Interesting theory linked to by Satan–I mean Steve Sailer of course!–that Jamaicans are descendants of the slaves dropped off at the end of the slave routes, and therefore underwent the selection process of the slave death ships for longer than other island blacks.

    There is, or used to be, a somewhat related theory about blacks in the American South. Its basis was that because the slave ships normally docked in Atlantic ports such as Norfolk, Charleston and Savannah, blacks who trace their ancestry to Virginia, the Carolinas and Georgia are higher “quality,” because their ancestors were the first slaves to be sold right after arriving in America. The lower-quality slaves who didn’t get sold right away normally were marched farther west to slave markets in states such as Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana, and their descendants are lower quality themselves.

    Needless to say, I don’t think there’s a shred of truth to this theory, but it persisted for decades.

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  125. I’ve had many Somali men tell me basically the same thing about East African facial features. Apparently a lot of them feel that they’re not really negroes but instead really dark Caucasians. Without fail these men also have had the same opinion of those people they do consider negroes as white racists do – primitive, stupid, violent but still somehow magically able to steal their women…
    I’ve ran into an ongoing Helsinki gang war between Somalis and Nigerians multiple times. From what I’ve heard I got the impression that it started because Nigerian guys have been seen together with Somali girls…

    serious questions for you:
    1) why would east african men have problems ‘keeping’ their women? east african men usually have enough of the ‘delicate’ bone structures that would likely make them look attractive. also, it’s not a stigma to the east african women to go out with west african guys?
    2) is anyone going out with west african women? are they at a social disadvantage compared to east african women?

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  126. http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=609676

    here’s a link to various somali models. if u take any of these east african descent models and give them ‘white’ skin, they don’t look that different than a white model. their facial bone structure is extremely delicate. seriously, there are a lot of people who only know of black models who are of west african descent.

    here’s iman’s daughter from david bowie:

    click on the image on the right. this is iman’s daughter zulekha from former NBA star spencer haywood (who is of probable west african descent):
    http://www.i-iman.com/whats/diary_august99_2.html

    just like bridget mccain in a family of attractive blondes, i have sympathy for her ’cause she got her dad’s west african genes for facial structure and other traits.

    btw, here’s spencer haywood:

    here’s bridget mccain:

    i’m honestly not trying to be mean with this post. hopefully, we can allow people to voluntarily alter their own genes to ameliorate human suffering. zulekha deserved her mom’s facial looks as much as iman’s daughter from the good looking white guy.

    btw, this has less to do with race than attractive people of whatever race mating with extremely unattractive ones and their resultant offspring.

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  127. Not in Ft. Lauderdale, apparently. At least in the poorer neighborhoods.

    South Florida ended up with more of the second group than the first group, so you’ll end up with more of the recent immigrants who were mostly poor residents of the countryside. Some in the first wave of Haitian immigrants view the second wave and their lower class habits as a public embarrassment to the community…

    I judge each individual on his own merits.

    As I’ve stated before, there are no individuals, just groups of people lumped together into large groups for general purposes of identification. IMHO, I really don’t think the average person is capable of judging as an individual sans initial stereotyping.

    believing in race realism due to the overwhelming scientific literature on the subject is enough for the left wingers to say that you are a racist.

    The problem is that if you look on the web, the vast majority of race realists are just racists using “facts” to prove their viewpoint that minority group X is inferior and undeserving of various rights and freedoms. Guys like PatrickH or PA come across as a minority when compared to the peanut gallery at Half Sigma, Steve Sailor’s place, Inductivist, or the really bad guys at Stormfront.

    I only make my points to DA because it is quite apparent he is not your stereotypical “nigger” and is quite intelligent and honest.

    See, why did you have to use that word for? There are better words that one could use to in place of it, IMO. For me, the word carries too much baggage, and I’d prefer it if both white *and* black people would cease using it.

    He just has a chip on his shoulder, and I do not begrudge him that.

    No, I’m just simply trying to explain that I have to exist in this world as well, and I personally don’t think that widespread knowledge about the genetic inheritance of IQ as it pertains to race is not a good idea. It will simply exacerbate poor race relations and make things far worse for everybody.

    One must remember that David Alexander’s family can cast a wide net, and I need to care for my niece and nephew, regardless of their IQ, and I would prefer to avoid spending my days wondering if child X or Y whether it’s of my genetic stock or my brothers’ or cousin’s stock is doomed to failure, shame, public embarrassment, and criminality.

    We all must learn to acquiesce to our lot in life — without giving into defeatism or laziness.

    Well, when you’re told that you’re simply low IQ trash, it’s relatively easy to sink into defeatism and laziness, especially when everybody presumes you’re too stupid to perform higher paying work, and when criminality pays better than the work that you’re qualified for. For all intents and purposes, in modern world, sans IQ, you’re doomed, and at that point, why *would* other races respect us?

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  128. Ghetto black women are probably the easiest in the country before anyone else.

    It depends on the circumstances. I’ve met some black women who live in the “ghetto”, and they’re “holding” out for a good man. I’ve met middle class black women who have lots of sex. It varies, but I’ve met black men who complain that black women are less likely to have sex with them when compared to white women.

    Statistically, and anecdotally, 2/3rds of black women are overweight, which is why I always seem to wonder where the good looking black girls are – they’ve become giant blobs

    From my own experience, I suspect some of it genetic and some of it is due to the high consumption of fatty foods in poorer locales, but I suspect it’s also due to weight gain from children and birth control. Plus, there’s less of a stigma for being fat amongst blacks, but being obese is still a social penalty.

    How many really fat Asians do you ever see?

    I’ve seen a few fat Asians, and they’re rather unattractive IMHO.

    You are a child of upper class Haitian immigrants.

    We weren’t mulatto, and we weren’t rich, so I’d refrain from using the term upper class.

    In TO, the concern about the surge of gun crime has caused many to point the finger at blacks in general

    So in other words, Toronto is “ruined”, and it’s not going to be my escape from the United States?

    Mind you, IIRC, roughly 50 to 60% of Canada’s black population is Jamaican…

    BTW, I’ve noted that cities similar to Toronto in terms of the black population as a percentage of city residents in the US have higher murder rates than Toronto…

    Diffs between Haitians and Jamaicans?

    The biggest difference is that Haitians are de facto Francophones and Jamaicans are Anglophones which also has implications in terms of religion. While most Jamaicans (and African-Americans) are Protestant, most Haitians despite inroads made by marginal Christian faiths and Protestants (yes, there are Haitian Mormons), most Haitians are Roman Catholic.

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  129. on September 7, 2008 at 7:53 pm somebody from half sigma's blog

    The problem is that if you look on the web, the vast majority of race realists are just racists using “facts” to prove their viewpoint that minority group X is inferior and undeserving of various rights and freedoms. Guys like PatrickH or PA come across as a minority when compared to the peanut gallery at Half Sigma, Steve Sailor’s place, Inductivist, or the really bad guys at Stormfront.

    DA, not like you’ll want to hear what I say, but- you consistently conflate two issues when discussing race realism:

    1) that there is a scientific basis for race realism with respect to IQ, psychopathology, sexuality… this is either logical or illogical.
    2) that people should use scientific knowledge about race realism for ulterior motives

    race realists believe in #1, of course. quite frankly, you probably do as well. a significant amount of race realists, including some at Half Sigma and people like Razib, Jason Malloy and Agnostic at gnxp, strongly don’t believe in #2.

    what you and people like you don’t grasp is that by stigmatizing everyone who is a race realist as a racist, all you do is poison the debate so that race realists have less incentive to establish dialogue with reasonable people on the left, like yourself. just think about this…

    you aren’t going to change anyone’s minds who believes in race realism after they have read the scientific literature on the subject. you will make people less inclined to speak to you at all by trying to ‘bully’ them into submission- which, btw, does not work on the internet where anyone can be anonymous and say what they want. i’d actually argue that scurrilous charges of racism don’t even work in real life due to historical reactions like white flight.

    basic human behavior models predict:
    1) people do more behavior that engenders a positive reaction.
    2) people do less behavior that engenders a negative reaction.

    a lot of decent race realists likely see you as a negative stimulus to be avoided.

    it’s better to avoid people who are openly racist and try to see what can be done to speak with those race realists who are open minded about potential individual differences among anyone of any race.

    seriously, i don’t want to hang around people like blank or new anon on half sigma either even if i agree with them about the general tenets of race realism. however, half sigma and others on his site or this one aren’t like the aforementioned two.

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  130. DA, not like you’ll want to hear what I say, but- you consistently conflate two issues when discussing race realism

    As you can see in your quote of my comment, I pointed out “moderates” who are not blatant racists. My problem has been that discussion of #1 emboldens #2, and most of the solutions to the #1 are simply what #2 wants. Secondly, my fear is that most of society would prefer #2’s solutions to the problems of #1. Quite frankly, even if leftists were understanding of the situation, I don’t see how #2 and its followers wouldn’t transform from a fringe force to a mainstream portion of society?

    #1 will always lead to #2 except in the case of a few highly intelligent and compassionate people.

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  131. on September 7, 2008 at 8:56 pm somebody from half sigma's blog

    well, seriously, i’m curious. if you believe in #1 but don’t want to descend into #2, what would you suggest be done?

    this question assumes that there’s a ‘problem’ if race realism exists in this country and that doing nothing or maintaining the status quo is not a viable, long term option.

    btw, i agree with a lot of your analysis above. i think people who believe in #1 have to be highly intelligent and compassionate to not believe in #2. however, a point of difference between us is that you might not believe that anti- race realists who give the impression that all or almost all of the race realists are racists ALSO embolden disgruntled race realists who weren’t initially racists to believe in #2.

    this IS MUCH THE SAME WAY a lot of marginalized beta males are becoming more embittered with women in this society, whereas in the past they would have been just normal guys with a wife and 2.5 kids.

    again, positive behavior is supported with positive incentives for that behavior.

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  132. what would you suggest be done?

    I’d prefer the current status quo, but since your question presumes that the status quo is untenable, then the only solution left is to expel the low IQ of all races AND all minorities. Otherwise, to be painfully honest, I have no other ideas.

    however, a point of difference between us is that you might not believe that anti- race realists who give the impression that all or almost all of the race realists are racists ALSO embolden disgruntled race realists who weren’t initially racists to believe in #2.

    The problem is that saying that blacks and other non-white groups are lacking in intellectual capability does come across as racist to those who believe that all people are equal in their capabilities, especially since the groups who have traditionally held such opinions have been classic racists who use these facts to bolster their reasoning.

    Regardless, a significant number of the people who believe in #1 will begin to believe in #2 if a non-white person does anything bad to them. I suspect that it’s unlikely for intelligent and compassionate people don’t move into #2 under the threat of being called a racist.

    a lot of marginalized beta males are becoming more embittered with women in this society, whereas in the past they would have been just normal guys with a wife and 2.5 kids

    I’ve yet to understand this phenomenon. Instead of making $40K and spending it on a wife and 2.5 kids, a beta male can spend that money on items and experiences that will make him happy. Again, why is this bad, and why are so many oblivious to this?

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  133. I’ve seen a few fat Asians, and they’re rather unattractive IMHO.

    Obesity among Asians seems to be more common among women than among men. Even among women, however, the rate definitely appears to be lower than among other racial/ethnic groups.

    By “Asians,” by the way, I mean East Asians. South Asians seem to have obesity rates more similar to those of whites. Interestingly, I’ve heard that South Asians are particularly susceptible to adverse health consequences from obesity.

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  134. on September 7, 2008 at 9:37 pm somebody from half sigma's blog

    I’d prefer the current status quo, but since your question presumes that the status quo is untenable, then the only solution left is to expel the low IQ of all races AND all minorities. Otherwise, to be painfully honest, I have no other ideas.

    i suggest that we invest in genetic engineering research to allow people to voluntarily modify genes when we get to that point. this is not pie in the sky dreaming. this could occur within 10-30 years for IQ.

    within the next 100-200 years we should be able to alter facial morphology, too.

    i predict that a lot of the difficulties the world is having with ugly and low IQ people will be minor issues in the broad scheme of things- and, it will all be done voluntarily and without bloodshed.

    social programs fail. genetics will ultimately work.

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  135. 1) why would east african men have problems ‘keeping’ their women?

    Maybe because women of all races respond to attractive men of all races? It’s not that Somali men are “losing”, it’s that they are particularily fanatical about controlling “their” women.

    also, it’s not a stigma to the east african women to go out with west african guys?

    Stigma?! Hah. They’re getting beaten to pulp for refusing arranged husbands. But men in those regions have been stoning disobedient women for millenia and there are still disobedient women to stone.

    2) is anyone going out with west african women?

    It’s *extremely* rare to see West African females here. Most Africans seem to be illegals coming through the southern EU countries and those are practically all male.

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  136. jaakeli et others: Women are (IMO!) programmed to be interested in men from outside their tribe. Men in the tribe are programmed to be controlling of their women. Dynamic tension of jealousy and desire has led to how many stories of Romeos and Juliets and handsome “strangers” having their way with the local daughters. So Somali/Nigerian action over women is same old stuff. As jaakeli stated, that situation is greatly exacerbated when the “new kids in town” are all males.

    DA: IQ is critical for a variety of outcomes. If it is ignored, then people who suffer negative outcomes because of IQ will be ignored too. If they are not ignored, then policies will have to be developed to deal with them as low IQ people. If (if!) there are differences in races in IQ, then races will show up differently as recipients / objects of those policies.

    To ignore race differences in IQ, you have to ignore differences in IQ, which means you write off those who suffer in the modern world because of their low IQs, whatever their race.

    Which strikes me as inhuman. “somebody…” has got a point, David.

    TO isn’t ruined. Its gun crime rates are still quite low…but the increase is due almost entirely to Jamaicans. And that is now a taboo subject in TO. Which means that blacks like you just might find themselves the objects of a suspicion they don’t deserve. Which comes about by refusing to face ethnic differences in crime rates and types…as in TO where they do not allow crime rates to be gathered officially by ethnicity. Reminds me of how the topic of IQ and race is being handled…

    Ignorance can’t be the basis of successful social policy.

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  137. Women are (IMO!) programmed to be interested in men from outside their tribe. Men in the tribe are programmed to be controlling of their women.

    this is complete nonsense. at least for sex/dating, women are the ones who are strongly biased against guys from their race, and men show no such biases for women outside their race. this issue has been covered extremely well in gnxp and half sigma. this may not be true for serious relationships and there are disparities in interracial relationships based on race and sex.

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  138. sorry, the above should read: women are strongly biased against guys from outside their race (instead of from their race)- and of course, i’m only talking about sex/dating as the situation may be different for serious relationships.

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  139. Racial/ethnic/background diffs can be sexy going in both directions, no? I chased girls from backgrounds unlike my own for years. It’s a “difference” heightener, or can be anyway. And the cultural and taste diffs people bring with them can be sexy and mysterious in their own way. Interracial and interethnic sex can be very fun. During that stretch I tended to find girls from my own northern-Euro-mongrel background boring. Pretty and sweet though they could be, comfortable around them though I could be, it was like I knew them too well. I remember one Jewish girl I dated telling me why she never wound up dating Jewish guys: “It would be like dating my brother. And what’s sexy about that?”

    FWIW, as a general rule of thumb, I think most people are probably going to be more comfortable with and around people like themselves. But there will be exceptions, and they deserve to be taken into account too.

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  140. PatrickH 71–

    Thanks for the kind remarks. I like and find you interesting too. When I do read over my longer comments awhile after I’ve posted, unless I’ve edited it quite a bit, I’m often rather appalled by the need for pruning of dependent clauses, etc and typos, but there usually is quite a lot of pulling from extensive thoughts I’ve had on the subject before, and I’m glad that the sometimes pokes through the need for me to edit and my disinclination to do so. (Actually, I’m slightly dyslexic though very high IQ, and so I have a hard time SEEING errors right after I’ve written them. i can do it but it takes real work. Look at it fifteen minutes later and it’s easy for me. Weird, I know.)

    “If there is evidence that a whole generation of young men is more “metrosexual or emo” or that there have been substantial numbers of young men who’ve not become “bad boy assholes” because of indoctrination by women, I’d like to see it.”

    Although quite a few of the comments I make are based on studies, usually that I’ve read about in secondary sources I trust including GNXP but many others, this is based on direct and secondary observation. I’m a younger boomer, not too much older than you I’d guess, depending on what you mean by “came of age”.

    So I don’t have this one nailed down for you but I see it everywhere, and I do try to avoid “good old days” sort of thinking, and really think I do. Today is better in a lot of ways.

    I’ll note that I’m virtually certain Roissy more or less agrees with me. He’s alluded to as much in snippets many times. But it’s a broadly shared view.

    I’m talking the broad, highly populated middle of male innate aggressiveness spectrum here. Bad boys=assholes w/a sexy edge are usually aggressive enough/high testosterone that I don’t think sex role cultural conditioning short of absolute legal compulsion has had too much emasculating effect.

    You can’t possibly deny there’s been a massive change in the indoctrination messages in schools and the media since before the sixties — not just about official things like whether women should work outside the home if they can afford not to, but also whether there’s really any non physical thing that men are better than women at — though we all know and the feminist elites are happy to agree there are many things women are. There are only a very few things we are told it’s ok to believe that men rather than women should probably usually lead in (leading troops into battle perhaps, and most really hazardous activities, or though it’s unspoken unusually nasty one’s too), but very many things women should lead in deciding (nearly everything having to do not only with children but also marriage, often even money primarily earned by the husband, vacations, friends, time with inlaws, time allowed to be spent no with wife or at work, and often even amount spent at work, and so on.)

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  141. Dougjnn — Did you see the posting and commentsfest over at my blog? With you featured high among them.

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  142. “As I’ve stated before, there are no individuals, just groups of people lumped together into large groups for general purposes of identification. IMHO, I really don’t think the average person is capable of judging as an individual sans initial stereotyping.”

    An initial stereotype, if blatantly inaccurate, will fly out the window on first contact. People telegraph a large number of things with their mannerisms, dress, degree of cleanliness, the way they speak, their vocabulary etc. A black nerd comes to our go club every once in a while. The guy is so nerdy looking that NOBODY is capable of believing in any black stereotypes in his case.

    Let’s consider a job interview. A well-mannered and sharp looking black person comes to an interview to which he was invited because of his good resume. Suppose the interviewer has not met him or seen his photo. Do you really think his prospective employer will show him the door just because of a stereotype that says “blacks are lazy and stupid”? And no employer would be stupid enough to believe good things about somebody only because they’re white.

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  143. “within the next 100-200 years we should be able to alter facial morphology, too.”

    You’re grossly overestimating the time it’s going to take. The development of any technology being fundamentally about manipulating information is accelerating exponentially.

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  144. Is your optimism about genetic engineering similarly shared in the actual scientific community? (I dunno, maybe it is for all I know).

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  145. Clio/Anonymou 79—

    ” I wonder, was there ever a time when this (white man/black woman) was actually the more common form of inter-racial coupling; I mean, after the end of slavery, before which I expect it really was more common? Or did the stereotype I grew up with just persist because popular entertainment was shy of showing the black man/white woman combination, for whatever reason?”

    First, no there haven’t been any periods post slavery when there have been more white man/black women marriages or trysts than the other way around. A lot of that is biological. Really. Steve Sailer has two excellent facinating articles in his archives on this, siting stats and studies. Google interracial marriage over there. GNXP also has lots of stuff on the bio basis for the discrepancy. There I’d google “race sex differences” or “race sex appeal” or variations thereon, but google generally don’t need variations.

    1) Most white men, or men of other races except their own for that matter, do not find most predominantly black women (of West African extraction) very attractive. There have been several studies. Do a GNXP search. It’s also just out there, talk to your male friends. But do it so as to get to their general feelings about the typical 1/3 from the top black versus white versus asian woman. Now when there’s a lot of white or even asia admixture, usually half or more, then it can be another story. Halle Barry is probably a bit more than 60% white. It is of course worth lots of status points in the “Things White People Like” to point to “black” women that you drool over, with Halle Barry being the current fav. There are others. Personally, when you get down to ¼ or 1/8 black women, that’s where I go into general, as opposed to rare case, drooling mode. Oh and black/Amerindian mixes can be hot to, though usually the Amerindian admixture isn’t big enough to get all the way there for me. A contributing reason is the very high level of testosterone in black women compared to other races. The bitchiness, in your face, that is so prevalent (though hardly universal) is not just cultural, though it’s that too. Averages people, not all.

    2) Many white women, especially of the less conservative or wilder sort, do find lots of black men sexually attractive, and maybe on that single dimension alone, more so than most white men. Lust for black studs has broken way above the surface these days. Part of the reason is huger for the still partly taboo, bad girl, or avant guarde. Part is also genuinely physical. Black men do have the highest effective testosterone level (receptors are involved too, never mind) of any major race, higher than whites and a lot higher than E Asians. Think aggressive sexual energy and muscle mass (on the good side). Black men do have larger penises on average and at the extreme tails their largest are notably larger than the white largest. See current internet porn. The entire population of current teen and twenty something American girls have. Well almost. Less among the religiously conservative and less urban. (The average size isn’t much bigger though, contrary to the widely prevalent urban legend among, well, the urban. Condom manufacturer and other studies give us: White (American) avg. length 5.75in, black 6.1, Asian 4.25. East Asian is almost certainly lower. There are overlapping bell curves of course, with the black white mean not very far apart unlike on some other taboo things like IQ. But the percentage among blacks with over 7 (what most girls with a lot of direct or indirect porn experience think is real big) is larger than among whites, though there are a lot more whites with over 7 than blacks – 8x as many whites in the US.) You wanted to know all that, right clio?) Back to our reg. scheduled programming. Now on other dimensions there tends to be more of a problem in black guy, white girl relationships. What sort of things? LT compatibility for cultural and other reasons, income levels, avg. IQ differences however caused, likelihood of massive male cheating, for both cultural and high testosterone reasons, and also in some circles acceptance among friends and which community are you going to live amongst. (If it’s a liberal white one with blacks mixed in, little problem for lefty girls, but if he wants to live among mostly white male excluding black friends, it’s much more of an issue. Alien culture.) There are black men who meet these other hurdles or most of them or seem to, and there are white women/black marriages – in much higher percentages than white man / black woman marriages.

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  146. 134 somebody from half sigma’s blog:

    social programs fail. genetics will ultimately work.

    Amen to that.

    Let us pray we don’t destroy ourselves before that happens.

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  147. Josh D 80–

    “Big fan, never really commented because no one really gives a shit what other people have to say.”

    While that is true on lots of blogs it isn’t true on some others, including this one. There’s lots of active and intelligent commenter back and forth, that often in fact takes on a life of it’s own only tangentially or not at all related to the orginal post after awhile. Some wrote a very amusing comment on the typical pattern with various “characters” saying/doing various typical things at comments up to 50, and then the thing just taking off into the wild blue yonder after that. (But usually intelligently and non dogmatically so.)

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  148. DA 89–

    “Why are black guys so into dating women of other races?

    Anecdotal Theories:

    1) Other women are prettier or better looking than black women.
    2) Other women are more feminine than black women.
    3) Black women are “bitchy”, other women are not.”

    These are perceptions of black women by most white men as well, as above.

    My perception is that while young black women tend to be more hot to trot while they are young (esp. comparing teenagers and even more young and illegal ones), they tend to get dissillusioned and cynical, often to a high degree, when they get older, having been played so much in the flat out cheated on, played and lied to way, and not reliably provided for despite promises. (Roissy’s playing (pump and dump) as presented involves a lot more finness and not so much flat out lying.

    But I’ve only got a strongish hunch on this one, so I’d love your feedback.

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  149. on September 8, 2008 at 2:46 am somebody from half sigma's blog

    You’re grossly overestimating the time it’s going to take. The development of any technology being fundamentally about manipulating information is accelerating exponentially.

    i actually agree with u that it will likely be sooner rather than later, but i was playing it very conservatively; science disciplines will work synergistically to produce the desired results in a shorter time period than we can otherwise imagine.

    Is your optimism about genetic engineering similarly shared in the actual scientific community? (I dunno, maybe it is for all I know).

    godless capitalist doesn’t post much anymore but if u read stuff on gnxp from p-ter among others, i think it’s fair to say that actual scientists would concur with this view, and more than a few, like markku, would probably say i’m way too conservative.

    people like DA and chic on this site who have made inflammatory comments about eugenics are myopic in their view on it, don’t understand its extremely beneficial ramifications toward the have nots, and are probably conflating voluntary eugenics with involuntary eugenics (there is a huge philosophical gap between the two that is as wide as the ocean).

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  150. on September 8, 2008 at 2:48 am SovereignAmericanMale

    @119 PatrickH

    Being called a racist by a liberal after his/her loss of an argument is old hat.

    Other terms used by differing groups, to get the listening/reading audience to stop paying attention to the winner in a debate are:

    Traitor
    Misogynist
    Pedophile
    White (or other group term) supremacist
    Faggot
    Anti-Semite
    Hypocrite

    Be careful in winning too many arguments…
    We live in strange times, where your spoken and written words can get you convicted of mass murder (genocide)

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2003/dec/03/20031203-113817-3449r/

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  151. Other problem for BM/WF long term relationships: black father abandonment. Halle, Barack, many others at the high public level for anecdotal evidence, more from my own experience anecdotally. My own guess is that if black men get a rep for abandoning middle class white women and their children (in other words, it’s not just a ghetto thing), that will make them more attractive to successful white women, not less.

    Women do love a challenge after all. 🙂

    Cynically,
    Patrick

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  152. 127 David Alexander:

    David, I’m 1/2 white and 1/2 Hispanic, so I’m not *entirely* unfamiliar with your angst. However I think you make things harder on yourself than they need be.

    For instance, the whole debate is usually cast in a very binary, black/white (no pun intended) manner. So naturally, someone in your position would feel put-upon by the implications. No one likes to feel inferior. But the framing of the debate in this way obscures something else: all-encompassing, all-pervasive, universal human hierarchy.

    The members of the “superior” group like to imagine themselves as a homogeneous entity as they pat themselves on the back. But as you well know, even in white culture, there are social classes, i.e., further hierarchy. The upper classes refuse to associate with the classes below them.

    Even then, within a single social class, you have further divisions. To wit: a conventional middle class high school will be subdivided into the jocks/cheerleaders vs. the punks/rockers vs. the band geeks vs. sci-fi nerds vs. the Untouchables.

    And I think all of us here, regardless of their social class, can remember instances of fractions amongst their peers — some people have more social calibration than the ones who “just don’t get it.”

    Should we invite John to come along? Nah, he wouldn’t fit in.

    I know for myself I have rubbed shoulders on the fringes of a group outside my purview, only to be gently rebuffed and escorted away.

    So the nice thing about this is everyone is doing it to everyone else! Ain’t life grand?

    The spectre of the Hierarchy Monster looms ahead of us and behind us every moment of our lives. Everyone struggles with the same issues in some form or another.

    See, why did you have to use that word for? There are better words that one could use to in place of it, IMO. For me, the word carries too much baggage, and I’d prefer it if both white *and* black people would cease using it.

    Point taken, but I was hoping to highlight the disparity between the abstract and the actual. Generalizations are useful in making sense of the world but no abstraction is greater than the context which violates it. I’m sure you agree that there IS substantial truth behind the “******” stereotype, yet you consider yourself an exception, deservedly. Why is that? After all, there appears to be evidence of genetic differences in intelligence yet you blindly accept THOSE *abstract generalizations* as prima facie proof of your own, individual, loserdom.

    Be consistent. Stop grasping at excuses for your failure to claim what is within your power to affect.

    We should never arrive at conclusions about our personal limitations through ratiocination, but through the experience of being pounded by a bruising reality.

    In closing, I’ll say I feel some affinity with you David. In my own way I too am something of an elitist snob — and I suffer accordingly.

    TC

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  153. David, I’m 1/2 white and 1/2 Hispanic, so I’m not *entirely* unfamiliar with your angst. However I think you make things harder on yourself than they need be.

    pain? half- mestizo/half- whites are some of the best looking combos in existence. if u live in cali or tx, u know what i’m talking about.

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  154. 153 freak show:

    if u live in cali or tx, u know what i’m talking about.

    I live in Miami, so I know what you’re talking about.

    But I did spend a year in a small town in Virginia, where there were virtually *no* POC. I would get the sidelong glances whenever I would go shopping, feeling their suspicions on the back of my neck like a dull heat.

    And, I’m not Mexican, BTW.

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  155. It’s *extremely* rare to see West African females here. Most Africans seem to be illegals coming through the southern EU countries and those are practically all male.

    TO isn’t ruined.

    I was questioning if T/O is ruined as a mixed multi-ethnic city for people “fleeing” the segregation of the US. Ottawa is much too boring, and Montreal’s economy and politics blow. The sad part is that I liked visiting Canada because I felt “free” there. I was not a black person, but simply a person.

    But there will be exceptions, and they deserve to be taken into account too.

    I’ve noted that some Haitians including those in my family have sworn off dating other Haitians. They see the difficulties in their parents marriages, and they’ll presume that marrying non-Haitians will solve their problems. Others do it simply due to the fact that there are more non-Haitians than Haitians.

    Other problem for BM/WF long term relationships: black father abandonment.

    It’s also a problem for black women as well. It’s very easy to abandon a child when you only viewed the mother as a short-term relationship at best.

    I’m rather lucky that my older brother despite not residing with his son, takes an active role in his life and takes custody of him every weekend. The same is true for my cousin and his child, and my cousin’s ex-boyfriend and her child as well. Mind you, the big difference is that they grew up with active fathers in their high prole/middle class lives.

    People telegraph a large number of things with their mannerisms, dress, degree of cleanliness, the way they speak, their vocabulary

    A Nautica polo shirt and a kahki summer pants with a messenger bag seems to elicit dirty looks and clutched purses from white women, so apparently dressing like a white guy doesn’t seem to work all the time either.

    Do you really think his prospective employer will show him the door just because of a stereotype that says “blacks are lazy and stupid”?

    Yes, I do think that’s possible. An employer or interviewer may have seen previous black candidates accepted for jobs and discover that despite their credentials, they were poor employees, so it’s possible there may be a bias against future black candidates.

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  156. But I did spend a year in a small town in Virginia, where there were virtually *no* POC. I would get the sidelong glances whenever I would go shopping, feeling their suspicions on the back of my neck like a dull heat.

    As a roadgeek and photographer, your quote explains why I shy away from driving off to rural areas. It’s just not worth suspicions on their part and paranoia on my part.

    David, I’m 1/2 white and 1/2 Hispanic

    If you’re Cuban, Dominican, or Puerto Rican, unless you have black ancestry, for all intents and purposes, you’re white.

    So the nice thing about this is everyone is doing it to everyone else! Ain’t life grand?

    Except we’re dealing with real life with real people and real issues. Would one want law enforcement officers who think that they’re racially superior to parts of population, especially groups that are prone to crime? Do you want a jury pool with people who think they’re superior to the defendant in the court case? Do you want employers with a similar mentality choosing their employees?

    I’m sure you agree that there IS substantial truth behind the “******” stereotype

    Yeah, I’ve seen guys who act that way, and most of them sicken me. Sadly, most of them live in an intellectual vacuum with no exposure to how the rest of the world operates. My nephew lives in the ghetto, but I try my best to expose him to the rest of the world.

    yet you consider yourself an exception, deservedly

    I’ve always viewed myself as an exception because I have “oreo” tendencies, but I still think of myself as a lower “nigger” because I didn’t finish college within the 4 year window that normal people use, and that my inability to finish on time is due to my own personal failings like cutting class or showing up late and not doing assignments and spending time doing other stuff related to my hobbies or sitting on the internet or in a bookstore. Of course, if I was smart and of high IQ, I wouldn’t have made years and years of the same mistakes in the first place.

    In my own way I too am something of an elitist snob — and I suffer accordingly.

    I’ve always wondered if elitism is an inherited trait. My grandparents despite not being members of the upper class have been presented as snobs and elitists by numerous stories told by various family members.

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  157. @the whole Black women and attractiveness thing:

    It’s fairly easy to avoid becoming cynical and jaded when one focuses on the positive experiences and one’s goals aside of romance, rather than the negatives.

    Being played is a new experience for me. It has only been in the past three years of my life that anyone’s successfully gotten close to me to have a shot at any real psychological damage.

    I’ve always been one of those “ounce of prevention” types, and was told many times by women who got played, “If you had to go through it, you’d think about it differently,” as in, I’d be less positive.

    …but if one isn’t dependent on certain illusions, life is just easier all around. So getting played still really doesn’t happen to me. Guys may lie to me, and may even fool me a little in the sense that I may foster hope that I shouldn’t, but none of them has ever taken a cent from my bank account, or convinced me not to work a day…not ever.

    Even on those eating icecream from the container and listening to Evanescence days, I’ll be fatbitching and crying at my computer, pounding away as always.

    In fact, making more money makes me happier. It is, in my opinion, the best cure for a broken heart…increase your income and/or buy yourself something with investment value.

    My favorite breakup gifts to myself are rubies.

    In my opinion, beautiful is as beautiful does. Nobody is perfect, and there aren’t enough Barbies to go around, and as I’ve said elsewhere, a man can love just about any creature who isn’t actually eating his spleen at the moment.

    So a woman would do well to focus on her Maslow 1&2 issues, and let 3 be a matter of opportunity. Taking care of yourself, and being healthy and wealthy is alot more important than having a man. Sex is another story, but even that becomes increasingly less important after 40.

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  158. [Sex] becomes increasingly less important after 40.

    So I fully understand that there are hormonal changes for both sexes as we age, but I have a strong sense there are a good number of 40-something guys, either single or stuck in sexless marriages, who would lack any sympathy for this statement, i.e., “Screw that! *I* still want sex!”

    And if over-40 women are not terribly interested, for whatever reason, then all of the sudden the strategy of so many men on forums such as this one (“I’m going to keep going for the 20-something girls until I can’t get away with it any more”) doesn’t look like such a bad one.

    Probably not a good thing for our society for 20-something girls to be sleeping with 40-something alphas rather than 20-something betas, but I guess that’s the society we’ve got.

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  159. @Zorgon, the problem is that sex usually becomes even less important for men over 40 than for women over 40…generally.

    Women are becoming more sexually aware over 30, so though sex is less important in some ways, it becomes more important in others…the mode of expression changes based on needs.

    A woman in her 20’s is still trying to get her Maslow 1-2 issues stabilized. She (thinks she) needs a man to take care of her materially during her main childbearing years. So a man showing financial generosity to her will make her feel protected and loved in a way that it won’t work for the 35 year old owner of your local McDonald’s franchise, or whatever crafter invents some kind of neat gadget to convert pretty sarees into curtains or something.

    A woman in her 20’s needs practice, and usually realize that frequency of sex is needed to ensure the financial support…but what if she is, or becomes self supporting? What if she has a fit mom, aunts, and cousins who can take care of her kids while she works? or if she works at home and does well?

    Then her need for sex will be based solely on physical pleasure and “clean” bonding…human to human rather than provider to breeder/nanny.

    So really, whether or not age should be such a high consideration depends on a guy’s needs. If he enjoys having a financial hostage, beloved as she may be, then younger is better. If he wants an partner who will joyfully pull her weight, then older is probably better.

    Sex drive itself is more individual. I know a 50+ year old woman who has a long list of young male bitches who she keeps in a fairly brisk rotation…and I know a 20 year old who can’t have orgasms.

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  160. Nicole 159–

    “@Zorgon, the problem is that sex usually becomes even less important for men over 40 than for women over 40…generally.”

    This is total horseplop. Where are you even getting this? Men famously usually have more sex drive in their forties. Men in their forties still chase and marry women in their late twenties or early thirties and have successful sex lives with them both while dating and while married. As well you have heard of the mid life crisis right? It’s supposedly mostly about adjusting to career stagnation (not going to be the CEO or Executive VP after all, or senior partner, or whatever), but that’s mostly always blame the men coverup for the fact that men in their forties typically retain very high sex drive, often even higher than during mega hours and high career stress parts of their thirties if their on that track, while their wives typically have declining or maybe even down the drain sex drive beginning in their early forties but really getting going around 45 or so. Men as well typically just desperately CRAVE sexual variety after 10-20 years of marriage, beginning in their early forties particularly if they’ve been good faithful hubbies and knock yourself dead bread winners in their thirties. By mid fifties men’s drive does typically decrease on a steeper slope but then gradually peters away. It often doesn’t end until real old, seventies, and with viagra etc the ED issues that typically come in earlier like mid fifties on, aren’t the problem they were.

    With women you’ve got perimenopause all through her forties and sometimes beginning in her thirties. Her extrogen levels declines over the course of a decade or even sometimes fifteen years in early onset cases, and that cause her fertility to rapidly decline and then absolutely sut off a bit before actual menopause, in the mid forties or early fifties.

    Meanwhile like men, women’s T often declines only a lot more gradually in their forties. So in high T women she can have a greatly elevated T to estrogen level compared to what her body and psyche were used to. This can lead to raging horniness for some women beginning in their mid or late thirties to their the mid or all their fourties. In some cases some kind of horniness even persists in women’s fifties, beyond kind mental just likes doing it that some women especially really loving ones get into. Now if the woman has hormone replacement therapy and has amped T as part of that, grrr tiger in her drives in many cases in her fifties.

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  161. on September 8, 2008 at 2:05 pm Usually Lurking

    As well you have heard of the mid life crisis right? It’s supposedly mostly about adjusting to career stagnation…

    According to Psychology Today, a man’s Mid Life Crisis has almost nothing to do with his age, and everything to do with her age.

    So, if a wife is around, say, 40 years old, her husband, regardless of his age, will want to bu a red sports car to advertise to all the hot young chicks that he is ready to rock.

    Her husband could be 31, 45 or 58, it won’t matter much. it is only her age that matters.

    Here is the link: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=5&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpsychologytoday.com%2Farticles%2Fpto-20070622-000002.html&ei=rTDFSNDAI5mktQOs5fnnBw&usg=AFQjCNH6ZkD6HnuPYvd1T4yqAwPrtdKyPg&sig2=SB9hmOpM6ICtuXj5i_8Wgg

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  162. Is your optimism about genetic engineering similarly shared in the actual scientific community? (I dunno, maybe it is for all I know).

    I’m not optimistic about genetic engineering alone. I’m talking about any and all fields that are fundamentally about information processing.

    I don’t know what the community of geneticists says about the future prospects of genetic engineering but it’s not their business to make serious forecasts on that. In fact, few of the members of any community of specialists is capable of predicting the long-term development of their own field very well. The fundamental reason for that is that the main driver of long-term future development in any field is a host of entire classes of new tools that do not even exist yet. How could a geneticist who doesn’t know squat about solid state physics, material science, or nanotechnology say anything informed about what tools used by the next generation of geneticists could be built from the products of these fields?

    I’m pretty sure the exponential development of computer processing power, memory, and bandwidth will continue for the foreseeable future. The price-performance of computing is growing thousandfold per decade. There are no physical hard limits whatsoever in the way of increasing the price-performance of computers billionfold within the course of the next three decades. Within each paradigm it’s all about little tweaks done by dozens of companies and universities. And there are many new paradigms (carbon nanotube or graphene transistors, silicon lasers enabling cheap optical buses and ultimately entire optical CPUs, molecular switches etc.) in the pipelines waiting to take over when when the current one (two dimensional integrated CMOS circuitry on silocon wafers manufactured using nanoscale photolithography) finally runs out of steam after decades of predictions to the contrary.

    Why is computing so important? Because improvements in measurement techniques procude ever increasing and gargantuan amounts of data to be analysed. And because sufficient computing power allows for time-consuming and laborious experiments to be replaced with simulations that can produce results orders of magnitude more efficiently.

    Read “The Law of Accelerating Returns” by Ray Kurzweil.

    http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0134.html?printable=1

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  163. #161, Usually Lurking: Many (not all) of the points in that Psychology Today article are notably lacking in any statistical evidence. Any such sweeping generalizations made about human behaviour ought to have either some kind of statistical proof attached, or else a great many qualifiers and disclaimers inserted throughout each assertion. The point about menopausal women driving men into midlife crisis is interesting, plausible, and, for all I know, quite true – but where’s the proof? Likewise the point about men seeking powerful positions in order to attract women, and using their power for that purpose once they achieve it. Quite plausible, especially as a subconscious motive, but I would be more inclined to believe that powerful men really act out this strategy with younger partners if there were some kind of statistical proof available.

    clio

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  164. @Guys

    Sorry to burst your bubbles yet again, but sex(ual intercourse) does indeed become less important for men over 40…especially in the U.S.

    Your testosterone begins to lower to a point that sexually, you become more like women, in that the who and how starts to matter more than the what. It takes most of you much more touching and time to get going, especially as you start to push on 50…and for those of you in the closet or with other non intercourse based fetishes, it means that the good old in-out-in-out just doesn’t cut it anymore.

    So Lurking is partly correct in that the wife’s age/attractiveness/overfamiliarity might lead a man to stray, but this isn’t because her sex drive has lowered more than his has. It’s because he needs more than an available hole to function anymore. His hormones are no longer filling the gaps between his psychology and his penis.

    It’s quite simple…His needs are what they are, and if the wife can’t provide, then it’s not really anybody’s fault. Each needs to just accept it and do what they need to do.

    If they make a big deal out of it, it can break the family, but if they go with the flow, it can lead to a fun and exciting phase in their relationship.

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  165. 156 David Alexander:

    but I still think of myself as a lower “nigger” because I didn’t finish college within the 4 year window that normal people use, and that my inability to finish on time is due to my own personal failings like cutting class or showing up late and not doing assignments and spending time doing other stuff related to my hobbies or sitting on the internet or in a bookstore.

    David, I’m only going to say this once, and will henceforth be done with you and my Good Deed For The Month:

    IQ != Willpower

    POUND THAT INTO YOUR THICK SKULL UNTIL YOU BLEED FROM YOUR EARS

    Your problem David, is not your hypothetical low intelligence, it’s that you’re weak and lazy.

    Which, to my mind, is a far more egregious and offensive character flaw.

    TC

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  166. Nicole’s right about this, much as this aging male might resist her point.

    I don’t get “psychogenic” erections the way I used to. I need novelty to have those, not just novelty in fantasy, novelty in reality. Thinking about a woman I’ve been with only for a while is enough to get me in the state physically. With a familiar partner, direct stimulation is needed. Wasn’t true twenty years ago, I can tell you.

    Sad but true. And by the standards of my age cohort, I’m a walking horndog sex maniac.

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  167. Nicole 164 —

    “does indeed become less important for men over 40…especially in the U.S.”

    The “especially in the US” can only be true because men having even the most trivial of just sex or damn near it affairs, or gmab even sex with an escort (see Eliot Spizer) are in SEVERE danger of being taken out and shot by their American wife, aka being subjected to American divorce theft.

    As for the rest above, yeah it becomes less important (but still pretty damn important) than it was for them in their later teens and twenties, sure, of course. Even a blind monkey watching any American teen sex comedy can figure that one out. Never said it didn’t. Explicitly said it was on a long slow decline from way back before the 40s.

    But men’s sex drive does NOT become lower than women’s in their 40’s on average though. No way no how. Not talking where she was high sex drive and he low at the beginning of their twenties of course, average cases here. But as I said, in a minority of high T women esp. the sleigh ride of perimenopaual hormon shifts can turn her raging horney, horney than ever before in her life. That’s the unusual but not rare case though.

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  168. Tupac Chopra–

    “our problem David, is not your hypothetical low intelligence, it’s that you’re weak and lazy.”

    He needs a serious weight training regimin combined with reasonable not mega does or artificial testosterone, desperately. Except his too utterly couch potato to feel any of that desperation. So he won’t.

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  169. Alias Clio–

    “Likewise the point about men seeking powerful positions in order to attract women, and using their power for that purpose once they achieve it.”

    Haven’t read the article, don’t intend to (don’t trust Psych Today due to it’s reportedly fairly new and quite ideologically feminist chief editor but never did think much of it anyway), but I do agree that data is needed in even a journal popularizing actual scientific research. Well duh.

    But the point is so bleedingly obvious that it gets default status as contributing. To these type of men’s tendencies to stray (high beta’s become first time in their lives alphas, that his, because of not enough of the physical side of male attractivness (T+looks=sexual charisma, called looks) or game, despite the obvious status and money trajectory.

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  170. @PatrickH, all men need variety all their lives. It’s just that some are more successful at denial until they hit the male wall, than others.

    This is about the age when many couples try swinging or more intimate grouping. That keeps the variety factor while not risking dangerous sex with unknown people. It’s like a sexual smoking circle. 🙂

    I think the community aspect of freakiness is the thing I miss the most about the U.S.

    If my second ex didn’t have a girlfriend with kids here, I’d take us all back there just for that, when my daughter’s out of the army.

    Then again, her youngest should be getting out of the army about a year before…so maybe…

    @Doug, maybe my opinion’s a little skewed because of the kind of people I hang around, and my own experiences. I’m not 40 yet, but I feel my sex drive is increasing rather than decreasing.

    Some of my dating issues here, I’m sure, are because of having a harder time keeping it in my pants than I did in my late teens/early 20’s.

    It’s much harder for me now to kiss at the door and go in alone. Hell, it’s much harder to make it out of the cafe. It’s like horny is my default state.

    …but I have to be a “good girl”…at my age even! Sux, I tell you.

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  171. Wait, wait. Semantic problem here. Men grow less “interested” in sex with age? Or they become less physically arousable with age?

    Two different things.

    Because as far as I can tell, few men ever lose “interest” in sex, in the sense of thinking about it, dreaming about it, covertly sneaking looks at pretty girls, wishing they were having it right now, etc. Their little friends may not spring to attention quite as instantly as they once did, but the brain still enjoys spending a lot of time thinking about what it has always thought about, at least since the age of 12.

    It’s actually a bit of a problem guys need to learn how to manage. Don’t want to become one of those 90 year olds who compulsively flirts, cops feels, and makes dirty suggestions to 19 year old girls.

    But just because most 90 year old guys aren’t too forward about it, don’t imagine they aren’t thinking regularly about bouncing boobies and waggling butts and such.

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  172. Micheal Blowhard said: News to many of you, I suppose, but there has always been a sizable minority of people who didn’t reproduce. A fair number of them were even OK with this. And, despite it, humanity’s numbers have boomed impressively.

    Look, not everyone is born to be a parent, including many who wind up as parents. The daddy or mommy who bitterly resents the sacrifices he/she made for their ungrateful kids is not exactly a rare character on the cultural landscape. Neither is the angry child who tailspins off into uselessness; or the heartbroken parent who gave birth to a born-bad child who’s now a criminal or a sponging drug addict.

    As for fantasies of dying fulfilled and surrounded by a huge warm circle of adoring genetic descendents … Er, well, I spent a year making regular visits to a nursing home, and I didn’t see an awful lot of that. I did on the other hand witness a lot of grownup children who wished their parents would die finally, dammit, and grandchildren grossed out by what had become physically of these decrepit old people. As far as I could tell, for most people death is a lonely, disgusting, painful experience.

    And, y’know, the day after you die, what does it matter to you if your genes live on? You aren’t there any longer to know it, let alone enjoy it.

    I agree 100%. I ‘ve said much of the very same thing on a number of posts but some of the commenters here are in denial.

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  173. Anonymous
    chic: To dim to see the light.

    Ha! There’s the pot calling the kettle black

    lol

    Cute and please explain.

    joel said:Speaking of wealth creation, look at the financial collapse brought about by the geniuses on Wall Street. They made billions setting up us proles for a financial clock cleaning

    Excellent point, many people will find any and every excuse for those on Wall Street* because they are wealthy, and many of them graduated from Ivy League schools*. .

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  174. Chic – You want me to explain the phrase “there’s the pot calling the kettle black”? Okay. I’ll also explain why I used it.

    The above phrase refers to belittling someone for a characteristic you yourself have.

    You called the people at the RNC “to dim to see the light”. But if you were at all educated, you would have known it’s “too dim”.

    SOooooo, you were displaying your own ignorance while accusing them of being dim.

    Now do you understand? Or was that too complicated? 😉

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  175. clio:It’s funny, but when I was younger, the stereotype I had of inter-racial couples was that they were nearly all black woman/white man pairings

    and thats the way it was done for the most part. Blk men who dared to date out could lose their life. Now behind closed doors bm&ww could figure out a way to get together and there was more bw/wm behind closed doors too.

    bm/ww coupling was so hard to find in popular culture because many people had problems with it. Many shows that tried to show that side of inter dating would get a lot of letters and threats.

    The relationships between bw/wm did not decrease dramatically until bw stopped working as domestic servants for wht families. Storm Thurmond’s daughter is the result of a rape or relationship the 21 Thurmond had with the 16 housekeeper.

    Now it seems more acceptable to show bm/ww relationship. I notice that bm/ww receive far fewer dirty looks, bw aside. I guess because there are so many bm/ww we have grown accustomed to seeing the two together.

    Also many ww are bothered by bw/wm & even aw/wm relationships. Orlando Bloom was told to stop dating his costar from PofC because his female fans did not approve. An actor from Gregs Anatomy was told not speak to much about his blk wife too.

    PA said:Serious question. A question to black women: do you mind, or do you accept that?
    I accept it as long as the bm don’t put down blk women in the process. I date out too. My preference is for BM(very light to very dark) and Asian men. Life is to short, and to each his own.

    I’ve never had a problem with men but then I am still very young, and don’t want marriage or children of my own.

    DA said that blk women are not feminine enough, I don’t understand what he means. I will say that I noticed some ww use tears to pull a fast one on wm all of the time. I seen them get out of all types of crap with the use of crocodile tears. I’ve even started to cry to get out of things after seeing how much it works for ww, it works .

    AAW are taught that its not good to cry and play weak all the time. We are taught that if we want to be treated as equals with men, then we need to leave the girlish behavior behind.

    Btw, for a lot of bm, ww are status symbols. It’s there way of saying I made it. For others they simply met a nice woman and she happened to be white. There is still another group who see it as their turn to slutout your women since wm did it to bw for so long. Some take out their frustrations with WM on WW. I hate when men do that btw, it’s a truly betta move. The bodies of women are abused because of the wars of men.
    Barack Obama’s marrying a much darker woman should not be a shocker to anyone. Many light complected blk American men date dark skinned AA women, more so than medium or dark complected AAm.

    freakshow saidnot necessarily, there may be for various reasons significant exceptions to this. for example, if u r non- white and grow up in the anglosphere, u may believe that white features are the ‘best’ and want ur kids to have those features over yours.

    I agree with this^^^^. I think part of the reason is again colonialism and media brainwashing. For people of color who have dominated like AA, it is largely a result of Stockholm syndrome.
    As Clio and I’ve both stated, about 50-60 years ago the blk physican characteristics that are now desired by some wht Americans, were found unattractive because they were thought of ass N-word traits.

    Full lips, super curvy hour glass figure(3D) and bubble butt.

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  176. PA
    I hear you as far as the black male attraction to the white female: the silky hair, the whiter children. But why don’t black women seem to feel the same pull toward white men?

    If it’s all about wanting whiter children, than black women should be wanting the same thing as the black guys, right?

    Are you mail or female???

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  177. DA sais:Rumour amongst Caribbeans is that the Jamaicans and African-American are the unwanted slaves that were unwanted on the other islands. Generally, Jamaican and various American ports were presumed to be the last ports of call for slave trading ships.

    If you are braging about getting off the ship first then your racial hatred is complete.
    I would brag only if my ancestors were the last to leave the ship DA.
    I’ve read that slaves who could not be broken in, where often sent to Jamica. Slaves who behaved like Kunta Kinte for instance.

    Prole said:I see a lot of plump whites, where I work they can’t seem to stop talking about and eating food. Thus a potential reason for White male-asian female (although i’m sure you can argue for other reasons along with). How many really fat Asians do you ever see?

    If you hang around China town in NYC you will see very fat Asian children with very slim parents. Switch over to the American diet and your waist line and skin will go. However, I agree with you, there does seem to be a limit to how large Asians become. BTW, type 2 diabetes(tp) is a problem for Asian-Ameicans. Many develop the disease well before they become obese.

    Ghetto black women are probably the easiest in the country before anyone else.

    It depends on the circumstances. I’ve met some black women who live in the “ghetto”, and they’re “holding” out for a good man. I’ve met middle class black women who have lots of sex. It varies, but I’ve met black men who complain that black women are less likely to have sex with them when compared to white women.
    read very carefully Whiskey read very carefully!

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  178. DA sais:Rumour amongst Caribbeans is that the Jamaicans and African-American are the unwanted slaves that were unwanted on the other islands. Generally, Jamaican and various American ports were presumed to be the last ports of call for slave trading ships.

    If you are braging about getting off the ship first then your racial hatred is complete.
    I would brag only if my ancestors were the last to leave the ship DA.
    I’ve read that slaves who could not be broken in, where often sent to Jamica. Slaves who behaved like Kunta Kinte for instance.

    Eastern Caribbea is dramatically better off than western Caribbea. Barbados, for example, has a GDP per capita at a good southern European level. The posterity of those slaves who could be broken in have benefited dramatically from this selection process. Barbados has law and order, Jamaica doesn’t.

    Harsh winters and ice ages did the breaking in to the ancestors Europeans, not to mention Northeast Asian. Fuck shit up in a yurt, such as end up burning it, when it’s -60 Celsius outside and you and your relatives are dead.

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  179. Markku- Do you know how small Barbados is compared to Jamaica?

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  180. Nicole 170–

    Sorry, didn’t see this addressed to me unitl now, prob. because it was embedded down in your commend first addressed to someone else.

    “Some of my dating issues here, I’m sure, are because of having a harder time keeping it in my pants than I did in my late teens/early 20’s.

    It’s much harder for me now to kiss at the door and go in alone. Hell, it’s much harder to make it out of the cafe. It’s like horny is my default state.

    …but I have to be a “good girl”…at my age even! Sux, I tell you.”

    STOP IT! You’re making me horny.

    You need a fuck buddy or two or three babe. Like married men or something. Better to have more than one, to protect your heart. You have to do that anyway. But if you try, you can.

    Can’t you do that and still remain on the look see for something better, fully into you?

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  181. PA
    I hear you as far as the black male attraction to the white female: the silky hair, the whiter children. But why don’t black women seem to feel the same pull toward white men?

    If it’s all about wanting whiter children, than black women should be wanting the same thing as the black guys, right?,/i>

    PA, this is a question with many answers.

    1. bw tend to date wm who are on the same level, looks wise. Notice how often you see attractive bm with very unattractive ww, then look at the bw/wm couples you come across. Notice how they are often about 2 points or less apart in terms of looks. BTW, I have notice that some non-American bw will let the looks slide more.

    From what I hear from friends, read on blogs and my own ideas, I would say the average bw who is a 10, thinks it is an insult for a wm who is a 2 to approach them. A bm 2 would not approach a bw 10 so why should you . To the average American bw, your whiteness does not make you special, or earn you bonus points. I notice that some aw, seem to think that way but not the average bw.

    2. bw are socialized to not date outside of the race. When we do, we are often reminded of the enslavement period and how bw were raped by their masters. Many bm who date interracially are apprehensive about bw doing the same. Reread DA’s comments about bw dating out, notice that even he seems a bit cold to the idea.

    3. Some bw just don’t find wm men attractive. In the same way that some wm just don’t find blk women attractive.

    4. Some blk who find wm attractive are only into darker Southern European looking white men. Wm who have dark good looks like Italians, Greeks and Spaniards will be more popular with bw. BTW, many light-skinned blks look very similar to darker southern Europeans.
    I’ve heard/read blk women discuss how attractive Italian men are. I think this could have something to do with how macho Italian men are portrayed on tv. There are many things circulating out there about the relationship between bw& italian men.

    5. It seems that suburban wm(American) mature much slower than those who grow up in the city. Sometimes frat boys leave me SMH because of their immaturity.

    6. Wrinkles. Most blk Americans, excluding those who have lived hard, age a little bit slower than other groups. A blk women having grows feet is almost an oxy moron. Dark skinned blk women age notoriously slow when compared to other groups and even light-skinned bw . Google Kenya Moore(37), Gabrielle Union(35). Lisa Raye is light complected but check out how well her skin has held up, she is 42. Tina Turner isn’t doing so bad at 70 either.

    btw, Kenya Moore is the true definition of the word thick. I wonder what you will have to say about her figure?

    7. Social pressure, in the same way that some wm are afraid of what others think(very betta btw), many blk women are also.

    8. As a group, bw we don’t seem to have as much self hatred as bm. blk is beautiful are not empty words for us, we truly do believe it. Not only that but bw are famous for calling each other out if we step out of line. In our culture we are know for being very direct and forward*. If I have a problem with you, I will pull you aside and talk to you about it versus smiling in your face everyday and tearing you apart in my head. So blk women who express self-hatred openly are immediately taken to task for it by other bw.

    9.Some blk women believe that a wm would only want a blk woman as a s*x toy and nothing more. There is also a fear of wm violence.

    10. Some bw are not opposed to dating wm just wm who are American.

    11. Even bw who prefer wm don’t take to kindly to having a wm tear bm apart verbally. There are bm who will listen without expressing displeasure while their wht girlfriend/wife says any nasty thing she can think of about blk women, but the opposite is rare.

    * all my comments are based on the blk women I know and come in contact with. I can in no way give you info on the entire 38 million blk Americans women or 700+ million blk women globally.

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  182. dougjnn said :STOP IT! You’re making me horny

    Watch it, don’t lay about with us low IQ blks. God knows what you may walk away with.*

    sarcasm

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  183. “Markku- Do you know how small Barbados is compared to Jamaica?”

    Barbados has about half a million inhabitants. Jamaica has millions. Why is this relevant?

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  184. Because the GDP for Barbados would probably be much higher than Jamaica since it has far fewer inhabitants.

    Barbados=4.8 billion per capita 17,400 & 280k people

    Jamica-11.21 billion per capita 7,700 &2.5 million people

    I don’t know a lot about economics but I think I know a bit or more than the average American.

    Jamaica’s higher population, and fewer highly sought after natural resources, puts the country at a disadvantage, more so than Jamaica being the last drop off for slaves.

    * BTW,I am aware than Japan has the second highest GDP and Japan and almost no natural resources.

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  185. Chic Noir 186–

    I have read a bit about Barbados in passing. It’s economy is based almost entirely on tourism. As I understand it, the Barbados government decided some time ago to let British and prob. Euro corps develop the tourist properties without too much corruption or layers of local partners, though there are some. No period of socialism there either.

    Voila.

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  186. Chic Noir 184–

    “Watch it, don’t lay about with us low IQ blks. God knows what you may walk away with.”

    Millions of black chics are smarter than the average white girl and scads are damn smart. You seem to be, for example.

    Everyone with half a brain knows the deal about the averages in IQ however they came about, it simply a fact. One of the most well established ones in the psychology as a matter of fact.

    West Africans are the worlds greatest sprinters, and have been for decades, whatever country they’re representing. THAT much is surely genetics. It’ takes powerful ideology to deny.

    Biology is all about creating diversity. That as a matter of fact is why we have sex. Why sex got started as has kept going for so long. To reshuffle differences and create more genetic variation for selection to work on in responding to changes in the environment or ecology — new predators or food sources, etc.

    Diversity is good. But differences exist. Yeaa!

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  187. DA said that blk women are not feminine enough, I don’t understand what he means.

    Interestingly, I’ve seen more black girls in high heels, acrylic nails, and skirts than white girls. I’ve met plenty of tomboyish white girls and girly black women, so it’s mixed…

    If you are braging about getting off the ship first then your racial hatred is complete.

    My ancestors were the ones who took charge of their destinies and used their skills to chase the slaveowners off the island and repel British and Spanish invasions. 😛

    Sadly, once chasing the slave owners away, the mixed race elite decided to follow the worst practices of the former plantation owners…

    If you hang around China town in NYC you will see very fat Asian children with very slim parents.

    Chic Noir, I’m periodically in Manhattan, and I don’t see the overweight Chinese kids that you’re writing about. OTOH, I’ve seen a few in high school and out here in the boring ‘burbs.

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  188. Eastern Caribbea is dramatically better off than western Caribbea.

    Interestingly, when you compare Jamaica to Haiti and the Dominican Republican, Jamaica and the DR are in respectable middle country status, but Haiti is stuck with near African-levels of poverty despite nearly being just as black as Jamaica.

    Barbados has law and order, Jamaica doesn’t.

    I suspect it’s due to Jamaica’s role as a port for transporting drugs to the industrialized world. Interestingly, despite being poor, an article noted that the UN determined that Haiti has some of the lowest murder rates in the Caribbean.

    Notice how often you see attractive bm with very unattractive ww, then look at the bw/wm couples you come across.

    It’s one of the reasons why I’m admittedly weary of dating low ranking white women regardless of personality compatibility. The stereotype of black men dating unwanted ugly white women is still alive and based on some truth.

    bw are socialized to not date outside of the race.

    It’s interesting to note that black men have had more to fear traditionally from interracial relationships than black women, but black men are more likely to go chase after white women. I suspect that the socialization may simply be due to low interest for non-black men by black women along with low interest for black women by other men. Plus, I suspect black men want to keep the hot, good looking women for themselves, while retaining access to hot, good looking white women. I suspect that’s the dream of every male…

    Reread DA’s comments about bw dating out, notice that even he seems a bit cold to the idea.

    Actually, I have no qualms with it at all, as it would be hypocritical of me to date out, but prevent black women from choosing non-black partners.

    btw, Kenya Moore is the true definition of the word thick. I wonder what you will have to say about her figure?

    She’s perfectly fine. 🙂

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  189. Jamaica’s higher population, and fewer highly sought after natural resources, puts the country at a disadvantage

    While Barbados has a small oil field off its coast along with off-shore banking, and Trinidad has some natural gas and petrol, and plays a heavy role in manufacturing for Caribbean markets, Jamaica is one of the world’s most important sources of bauxite (an ore used for aluminium) in the world, and it’s an important local source of exported agricultural products in the Caribbean. In contrast, Haiti is stuck with only agriculture, and most of that consists of subsistence farming.

    Diversity is good. But differences exist. Yeaa!

    The problem is that according to some people, while there is diversity, people who look like me are different in a bad way with nothing valuable to offer.

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  190. Diversity is good.

    That is why it’s important to preserve it.

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  191. “In contrast, Haiti is stuck with only agriculture, and most of that consists of subsistence farming.”

    So, Haiti has very low wages. Why is Haiti unable to capitalize on that to attract foreign investors to set up manufacturing industries like, for example, Vietnam has done?

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  192. DA said:Sadly, once chasing the slave owners away, the mixed race elite decided to follow the worst practices of the former plantation owners

    I know, just like the blk Americans in Liberia. How sad. I think as human beings, we copy the behavior of those around us more than we want to admit. This is why a person can grow up in an abusive household, recognize that the environment and pathologies were wrong, but go on to repeat the very same pattern with their own children.

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  193. @DA- Haiti and the Dominican Republic are located on the same island. It you look at where Haiti is divided from the Dominican Republic, you will see one reason why Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. While the Domican Republic’s vegetation looks lush and very green, Haiti’s vegetation looks very brown and dead.

    DA said : an article noted that the UN determined that Haiti has some of the lowest murder rates in the Caribbean.

    I can believe it, I’ve always said that poverty does not have to equal chaos. When people loose their dignity, madness follows.

    DA said: The stereotype of black men dating unwanted ugly white women is still alive and based on some truth

    I agree

    Plus, I suspect black men want to keep the hot, good looking women for themselves, while retaining access to hot, good looking white women. I suspect that’s the dream of every male

    I think so and it’s a large part of the reason many bm have a fit when they see bw dating outside the race. BTW, there were brothels that catered to a mixed clientele. Wm could enjoy both bw&ww however, blk men could only sleep with the blk hooKers. I believe it’s also the reason why the young men are pushed out of some of the Mormon sects for the smallest infraction. The exodus of young men guarantees the older men more wives

    @Markku- l am no expert on Haiti but I would say there are a few things working against it:

    1. Low literacy rate.
    2. High HIV rate
    3. The double indemity that Haiti had to pay to France after wiping Nipoleans butt. The double idemnity was to cover France’s lost.
    4. Haiti was the second country in the Western Hemisphere to gain its’ independance. Some people/countries are still smarting over that.

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  194. @dougjnn- Eastern Europe produces good female sprinters, and Asia was once a power house for sprinters too.

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  195. Diversity is good.

    That is why it’s important to preserve it.

    Why is it good if black people are “diverse” in the bad way? Why is it necessary to preserve diversity?

    Why is Haiti unable to capitalize on that to attract foreign investors to set up manufacturing industries like, for example, Vietnam has done?

    1) Corrupt government with African kleptocratic tendencies along with massive instability*, and kidnapping in the capital.
    2) Haiti’s minimum wages are still higher than those of India, Vietnam or China.
    3) Only recently have tariffs been reduced on clothing imports to the US.
    4) “Hurricanes”
    5) Poor infrastructure caused by 1 and 4 working in tandem.
    6) The smart Haitians who could run or manage such facilities live in US.
    7) The rich Haitians in Haiti have no desire to “work” for their money.
    7a) There’s more money to be made in working for the government…

    *Before 1986, Haiti was relatively stable, and before 1954, it was tolerably poor….

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  196. Why is it good if black people are “diverse” in the bad way? Why is it necessary to preserve diversity?

    Why the paranoia? You and your family made yourselves welcome in a Western (white) country. You’re doing a million times better here than you would have in Haiti.

    I’d dig moving to Haiti for the beaches and the mountains and the start-up business opportunities, but somehow I dont see myself welcome there.

    But Chick and Clio are wringing their hands over the Arabs and Africans in France. What about the French people, whoc country is becoming Muslim? Where will they go? Marry their daughters off to Muslims, and get used to seeing headscarves at family dinners, I guess.

    And Norway is importing Somalis. Will the world be improved by there being two Somalias in place of one Noway and one Somalia?

    Have some perspective.

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  197. chicnoir 196–

    @dougjnn- Eastern Europe produces good female sprinters, and Asia was once a power house for sprinters too.

    I like most men and most women don’t pay much attention to most female athletics – only sometimes ones in which pretty female looking bodies are shown off to good effect. Volleyball, not too extreme a sport in any dimension, particularly it’s beach variety is the classic, but pole vaulters emerged this time round. Because I’m a skier and it’s somewhat a coed activity when non competitively at any rate, that too, though it sure violates the showing off the female bod metric. (Actually it’s not really co-ed. You go there together with or meeting up with friends. You take a few runs together maybe, depending. Then you meet up after and get all co ed.)

    Female athletics, esp. at the hyper competitive international competition level, strikes me as basically feminist bullsh*t, like so much else. That’s how it got started when done in that way. Now done at the high school, and esp. club sports competitive but not too much sort of way, as a type of fitness workout that holds more interest for many, sure I’m all for.

    I’m also for letting a thosand flowers bloom. But don’t kid yourself. If there wasn’t a major feminist ideological push behind women competing at national and international levels just as much as men, it never would have happened organically. If we’d allowed it to develop if there was enough interest, it wouldn’t have. Not that there aren’t women athletes that exceedingly want to do that, there are. But without the ideology of gender construct and gender sameness (with very limited exceptions), I doubt it. There are exceptions. Tennis and yeah golf for sure. Maybe swimming actually, at least to some extent. Certainly diving (balletic).

    Women’s basketball will never take off as a spectator sport. It may have peaked . Same with women’s soccer. It’s only because US men’s is so uncompetive because of our lack of interest, that us women have a niche because of the euro’s and south american’s lack of interest in women’s soccer. Our interest is mostly nationalism. And so on and so forth.

    But I don’t have a big stake in whether I can guess right or wrong about how much natural interest there is or would be in a particular women’s sport. What I do care about is not trying to impose equal RESULTS, marxist fashion, in gender areas. Impose equal rights and standards, and then let what happens, happen. Monitor for continuing equal rights substantial lack of actual disparate treatment, as opposed to theorized or constructed treatment because, well, what else COULD explain much lower female interest other than either i) carry over culture (the patriarchy) or 2) “structural sexism”.

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  198. “Why is Haiti unable to capitalize on that to attract foreign investors to set up manufacturing industries like, for example, Vietnam has done?”

    Are you kidding man? Vietnam is full of worker ants, blacks usuallt don’t even show up at work.

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  199. Why the paranoia?

    I’m asking a serious question. What’s so good about biological diversity in humans when it’s evident according to some research that black people and other groups have higher levels of testosterone and lower IQ, which are considered to be functional faults within a civilized modern society.

    You and your family made yourselves welcome in a Western (white) country. You’re doing a million times better here than you would have in Haiti.

    Actually, I was born here in the United States nearly fifteen years after my mom immigrated, so I didn’t get much a choice in the process. Mind you, anybody with half a brain would recognize that I live better than even upper class Haitians. My problem is that as an American citizen, I’d like to feel welcome in my own country without fearing “racists” lurking in the background. I know some will point out criminals, but they only want my property. The racists hate me for simply existing and being born.

    I’d dig moving to Haiti for the beaches and the mountains and the start-up business opportunities, but somehow I dont see myself welcome there.

    You’d be surprised. You’re a foreigner with money, so while some may see you as a kidnapping target or a ticket to a green card, a sizable portion wouldn’t mind your presence there. Despite being founded by a slave rebellion, a decent number of Haitians don’t hate white people.

    Besides, what start-up opportunities exist? The population is too poor, and I can find other stable nations in the region to deal with. There’s a reason why so few Haitians have bothered to establish such concerns.

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  200. PA- France invited some of the Muslim population there after WWII to help rebuild it’s country. There is now second generation French Arabs living in France. They have more in common with the French than the Arabs of Morroco and Algier. The others are coming for a shot at a better life. The French people should keep their country secular. I have no porblem with people having a different faith but don’t push it on me. If muslim woman wants to dress modestly fine but don’t tell me I must wear a head scarf because I am in a Muslim area.

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  201. 201 David Alexender:

    What’s so good about biological diversity in humans when it’s evident according to some research that black people and other groups have higher levels of testosterone and lower IQ,…

    Hey, don’t knock higher levels of testosterone. While it may bode ill for dreary suburban life, we need our warriors for the protection of our borders, and, some might argue, for the vital drive that fuels competiveness in the pursuit of entrepeneurial excellence.

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  202. I’d like to feel welcome in my own country without fearing “racists” lurking in the background.

    You’ll just have to accept the fact that people aren’t wired to mix. It’s not your fault, it’s not anyone else’s. That’s just the way the world works.

    I get pissed the fuck off too when I sense that the fat black women at the cash register slow down a transction to a crawl pace with a black customer when they see the White Devil (me) behind them. I feel the “piss the white man off” vibes. It’s unmistakeable, in this situation and in many others. We white folks talk about that amongst ourselves about shit like that, just like black folks do when they bitch to each other about whites.

    This doesn’t negate my many positive experiences with cool black people just like “racists” don’t negate your many positive interactions with whites. But the point is that whatever you’re dealing with here in your own country, I’m dealing with it too. Plus as a bonus, I get the 9:1 interracial violent and property crime disparity thrown in, just for fun.

    I’m asking a serious question. What’s so good about biological diversity in humans when it’s evident according to some research that black people and other groups have higher levels of testosterone and lower IQ, which are considered to be functional faults within a civilized modern society.

    Hey, I always appreciate serious questions. I can’t comment too much on the biodiversity thing. It’s not my area, and IQ conversations repel me with their nerd-factor.

    There are those who say that a confident dominant-majority society can acommodate “diversity.” Maybe it’s true, or maybe not. But the problem is, that in the West, a dominant elite runs things, and for reasons of their own, they feed and exploit blacks’ and other minorities latent envy and resentment of normal, ordinary whites.

    You’re a nice, smart guy, but you too have that racial resentment. I once wrote that a harmonious relation between blacks and whites is possible when blacks change their attitude. It’s true. Ordinary white people can’t do a damn thing about blacks’ problems. Black people can.

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  203. why, so I can get a meat cleaver or butcher knife

    Now I know you understand that I was attempting to be witty and come back with a good rejoinder

    If there wasn’t a major feminist ideological push behind women competing at national and international levels just as much as men, it never would have happened organically. If we’d allowed it to develop if there was enough interest, it wouldn’t have

    DA said: I know some will point out criminals, but they only want my property. The racists hate me for simply existing and being born.

    Excellent point DA.

    I can just say that I don’t think most blk people hate wht people. A good portion of blk people likeDA and mydelf, are exposed to the same type of BS comments that you see here about blks and race. Over time this leads many blks to avoid whts for fear of being exposed to garbage comments.
    As a woman, I must say that I am very sensitive to the energy of people. There are some whts whom I feel comfortable around immediately(prob like Clio), and others who upon looking at them for 10 seconds, I just know they hate blk people(prob like whiskey).

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  204. The racists hate me for simply existing and being born.

    It’s a harsh thing to say about whites in general. Just as it’s harsh to paint all blacks with one brush. If you’re just talking about a small segment of white people, then there is no problem, eh?

    I must say that I am very sensitive to the energy of people.

    I know what you mean. It’s possible I’m way off, but I have a strong feel for which of the regulars on various blogs are celibate nerds but pretend to be casanovas.

    , I just know they hate blk people(prob like whiskey).

    You may be unfair to Whiskey. He has a thought-out, dour style but he addresses you respectfully and tries to write sensibly, in a calm tone. You just happen to disagree about major things with him.

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  205. You’re a nice, smart guy, but you too have that racial resentment.

    I’m a black guy who listens to Celine Dion in French, so I suspect that you’ll have to expand on that statement before I can properly reply.

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  206. I like “Je Sais Pas” best.

    Maybe “resentments” is too strong a word.

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  207. The racists hate me for simply existing and being born.

    It’s a harsh thing to say about whites in general. Just as it’s harsh to paint all blacks with one brush. If you’re just talking about a small segment of white people, then there is no problem, eh?

    @PA- he said the racists not whites.

    I just know they hate blk people(prob like whiskey).

    You may be unfair to Whiskey. He has a thought-out, dour style but he addresses you respectfully and tries to write sensibly, in a calm tone. You just happen to disagree about major things with him.

    You may be right but I don’t agree. Whiskey comes across as a passive aggresive.

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  208. I like “Je Sais Pas” best.

    It’s a good song, but I’m partial to Rien N’est Vraiment Fini from 1 fille & 4 types. It’s interesting to note that her songs in French are lacking in the diva-oriented theatrics of her early English songs.

    If you’re just talking about a small segment of white people, then there is no problem, eh?

    Well, you gotta admit, why would somebody be a racist for? I don’t think that your average racist loves black people. My concerns have been generally with the hardcore type who would let their racism cloud their judgment and prohibit them from treating all people with respect regardless of that person’s skin tone. In other words, if I’m eating in your McDonalds in Idaho or Maine, I’d like to be able to just simply eat my burger without you harassing me or spitting in my food. If you’re a cop*, I’d like for you to presume that I’m not guilty and that I’m not going to rape the women of your town and relieve your citizens of their property.

    I’m simply the kind of person who thinks people can mix together. When I see my brother hanging out with his friends of various diverse ethnic groups from his college, it seems to work very well. When I see my nephew playing around with children of different ethnic groups at a local playground, it’s relatively easy to see how one can be lulled into that theory. The kids seem to be able to form groups with each other when there’s nobody to point out to the kids to avoid the children of ethnicity X.

    We white folks talk about that amongst ourselves about shit like that, just like black folks do when they bitch to each other about whites.

    You’ve stumbled upon why I have frayed relationships with some of my cousins and why some of my friendships have failed over the years. As Americans, we should see each other as fellow citizens and residents of the same home nation. As humans, we should have mutual respect for each other since we could easily be in the reverse situation at some point in our lives, and we should consider how the other person would feel. One would suspect that compassion would kick it at some point, but sadly it doesn’t.

    Of course, everything I say has to be viewed in the prism of who I am as a person. An introverted and possible social phobic person with middle class biracial ancestry from the Caribbean may not have the same views of white people and race relations as other people around him. Just as your views as an Eastern European immigrant who served in the US military has shaped your views as well.

    From my perspective, the big legal and institutional barriers to racism are gone in the US, and what’s left is a patchwork of stereotypes and cultural differences which are amplified by somewhat by ghetto culture. In other words, ordinary white people just have to be recognizant that not all black people are criminal thugs incapable of nothing, and black people need to be recognizant that scaring off the whites isn’t going to buy us friends, especially when we’re only 12.5% of the total population. As I like to say, if a bunch of black immigrants from the Caribbean and Africa can go to school in worse conditions in their home nations and manage to find solid jobs in the Anglosphere, I suspect the black native born population is equally capable of such success.

    *I’ve been pulled over on three occasions. I really can’t claim any racism as the cops were highly professional and downright accurate on the traffic infractions** that I was pulled over for, especially the New York State Troopers.
    **80 in a 55, 70 in 55, broken tail light.

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  209. If you’re just talking about a small segment of white people, then there is no problem, eh?

    BTW, for all intents and purposes, racists can be anyone and everywhere. They can KKK members in Alabama, Neo-Nazis in Sachsen-Anhalt, right-wing politicians in the Dominican Republic, warlords in Sudan, crypto-black Muslims in Philadelphia, or irate East Asian shopowners in the Orient.

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  210. ChicNoir 205–

    If there wasn’t a major feminist ideological push behind women competing at national and international levels just as much as men, it never would have happened organically. If we’d allowed it to develop if there was enough interest, it wouldn’t have

    Then it shouldn’t have. That’s how you tell if something is real or a figment of someone’s (maybe wrong in part or significantly or almost completely) ideology. It get complicated because people with one sort of beliefs will fund something and other something else, but it’s a guiding principle. It certainly shouldn’t be shouted off the public stage that it’s more than a little absurd to equally fund every area of athletics for women that men compete in, even when the level of female interest in participation is much lower and the public’s interest in viewing is lower. Instead it is a thought not allowed to be heard through any loud mass megaphone, and if heard is immediately given the Larry Summers massed media and feminist organizations vilification and horror massacre – with everyone cowed to side with the dissenter, since banishment from PC society, which means actual loss of jobs, networking, inclusion at social events and so on is the real consequence. It’s a kind of religious banning for any level of infraction that gets a nervous buzz going, as would questioning whether we really should be pushing so hard for female heavy weight lifting and so on and so forth. Hey if there’s enough interest without a kind of bribing, fine.

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  211. “Are you kidding man?”

    No, I’m not. I was asking chic noir an honest question.

    Interestingly, the richest country (not with full independence, though) in the world, Bermuda, has a black majority. Bermudan wealth is based on banking and luxury tourism. Cayman Islands (another black majority territory) are also very wealthy but merely having Norwegian level wealth.

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  212. I’m simply the kind of person who thinks people can mix together.

    i would agree that different individuals can hang out together depending on the circumstances.

    if you are going to argue this about groups, then it depends on what level of irritation you are willing to tolerate from a group with harmful traits, in terms of crime, welfare, educational dysfunction or just general mistrust (per the sociology studies of dr. putnam of harvard who recently showed distrust goes up among differing groups living together). in short, i think there is a great amount of data showing roissy’s axiom is correct:

    proximity + diversity = war (and that the only possible exceptions to this are if the differing groups are similar in iq).

    arguing otherwise assumes that your nephew and brother and their non- black friends are typical for their respective groups, and you haven’t shown any reason to conclude that is a correct assumption.

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  213. Whiskey comes across as a passive aggresive.

    nebulous ad hominems like this rarely work. debating someone on the points and showing why their points are incorrect with facts (not anecdotes) will convince more people of the validity of your position.

    whiskey is the best, new commenter to this site.

    his own blog is equally spot on most of the time.

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  214. Whiskey is also one of my favorite commenters here, even though I don’t agree with some of his views. His affinity with nerds is close to my own heart.

    I find that I don’t have the energy to comment much nowadays though — hormones throwing me off, maybe. Even if I start to write a post, most of the time I don’t feel like finishing it.

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  215. Nerds are fine people too. My particular pet peeve is any of the three variety of nerds one encounters online:

    – Nerds who pretend to be alphas (phonies)
    – Nerds with a chip on their shoulder about jocks, proles, or whatever
    – This third one may be a bit unfair of me, but I don’t like the extremely non-intuitive left-brain types.

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  216. This post makes Pupu sad 😦

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  217. Markku–

    Interestingly, the richest country (not with full independence, though) in the world, Bermuda, has a black majority. Bermudan wealth is based on banking and luxury tourism. Cayman Islands (another black majority territory) are also very wealthy but merely having Norwegian level wealth.

    You must be using figures of average, as opposed to median wealth. There are few areas in which the statistic average is more misleading than in assessing a country’s “average” (using the popular term) wealth.

    For those who know you learned the difference but have forgotten it, it’s simple. But the best thing is to give an example. Take the country Paradiso with five households in it. The income in globs is 5,6,9, 12, 2000. I can’t be bothered to do the actual arithmetic, I’m that lazy, since precision is not the point here.

    The average income of Paradiso is about 405 globs. The median is 9. (The medium is the income of the middle case in rank order of income.) Which do you think best reflects how the average person lives on Paradiso? Capiche?

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  218. dougjnn- actually, I think that was Whiskey’s quote which I forgot to respond to before hitting submit.

    If there wasn’t a major feminist ideological push behind women competing at national and international levels just as much as men, it never would have happened organically. If we’d allowed it to develop if there was enough interest, it wouldn’t have

    I disagree with this^^^. Women compete in sports which they enjoy. There are not a lot of female football and rugby players for a reason, I believe it’s the female aversion to violence(n/a).

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  219. “Are you kidding man?”

    No, I’m not. I was asking chic noir an honest question

    Marku what was the question again?

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  220. chicnoir 202–

    American feminists insisted on fielding an Olympic team in every sport that men compete in, not matter how little interest there was among women in that sport, or among spectators to view them. Then they pressured NBC to give it coverage equalvent to the men’s. They often got close to. Despite much lower audiences.

    You’re damn right I’m opposed to this sort of Marxist inspired social engineering. A little pump priming is one thing, to see if it will fly so to speak, but it goes way beyond that.

    Something similar goes on the the EEOC’s interpretation of Title IX in college sports. It was written to prohibit active discrimination. It is interpreted to require every effort to bring parity of female participation in all sports, at the cost of robbing far more popular men’s sports, among the atheltes themselves. So many mens sports have to be closed down while colleges try with great difficulty to get women to sign up at all for some of the women’s sports, but still they have to skew the money that way.

    That’s the sort of thing I oppose. Let 1000 flowers bloom. Don’t force every one of them to bloom. Maybe you’ll really get 500. Or 1500.

    That sort of thing.

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  221. I’ve been away for a while and am just catching up. Haven’t had a chance to read all 222 comments above, but suggest google Frederica Mathewes-Green’s 2002 National Review Online article “Let’s Have More Teenage Pregnancy”–the best I’ve ever read on that site.

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  222. @dougjnn- I get your point and it is a valid one. I’ve came across an article detailing how male athletes at the collegiate
    level suffer as a result of Title XI. Personally, I can’t recall be given a speech about why it is important for girls to compete in sports beyond doing it for the love of the game. Very few American women will compete in Football or Rugby. There is/was a woman’s football league in the states but of course, it didn’t go far because it’s not a sport that interest most women. The feminist can go on and on until they are blue in the face but I think most American women are not interested in playing football professionally. Woman to woman, I will give a clap and a point for the few American women who really enjoy playing football.

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  223. […] are a few red flags you should learn to spot before blowing your wad on that whore status symbol engagement ring. Commenter Married But Cool noted in the comments to this post the following risk factors: […]

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  224. I love Sarah Palin! She is hott! 🙂

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