Sweetness

Sweetness is defined as robbing a girl of the satisfaction of walking away from a failing relationship with the upper hand. It means stealing her thunder when she wants to be the dumper. There are two ways to do this, and both require presence of mind to accurately assess when she is about to pull the trigger. Timing is everything; you need to act right after she has made up her mind but just before she announces her intent to leave. Striking when the dissolution of the relationship has reached core meltdown will ensure maximum emotional impact and bewilderment.

Strategy 1

Dump her first.

Don’t do it too early while the embers of love are still strong or you’ll forswear many more months of sex and leave her brokenhearted. The Moloko Plus of righteous vengeance tastes bitter when raised in toast to a hapless, innocent victim. Save your awesome cruelty for the deserving. After she has grown cold to your affections and has begun plotting her escape she will care not a whit for your well-being. Thereafter feel free to unleash your malevolence unburdened by guilt.

When she has stopped returning your calls promptly and you sense the first stirrings of trouble, put your plan into action. Arrange to meet for drinks at your favorite bar (familiar turf is best). She won’t balk yet because you and her are still dating even if the spark has left. She may have lost the desire to hang out with you but her sense of obligation to the relationship will linger a little while longer. This window of tentative indifference usually lasts about two weeks. This is when you will act. As you and her are sitting there drinking and you’re watching her get more irritable by the minute, pause dramatically and with great solemnity announce that it’s just not working out, you’ve felt this way for a while, and though you hate hurting her like this you can’t fake it anymore and pretend like everything’s OK. You think it is unfair to keep her in a one-sided relationship when you don’t share her feelings and you want to end it now so the both of you can move on.

IMPORTANT: Do NOT give her an opportunity to respond. You want the confusion to fuck with her head for weeks.

Stand up from the table, throw a few bucks down for the drinks, and tell her you hope you can still be friends. When she attempts to sputter something in defense, hold up your hand forcefully and say “Don’t make it harder! We both need time to ourselves”, then walk out.

Strategy 2

Use her dumping power against her.

Wait for her to initiate the inevitable breakup talk and get a sense of the direction she plans to steer the conversation, then use her own words as your weapons. For instance, if she starts “I’ve been thinking…” you reply “I’ve been thinking too…”. If she says “I need space…” you say “I agree, we both need space…” then give her a reason why that space is so important by homing in on one of her critical weaknesses. Don’t know her critical weakness? What are you, a nancyboy? One of the first things you should accomplish in a relationship is taking a mental note of your girlfriend’s vulnerabilities. If you feel bad about doing this, trust me, she’s doing it to you. So find her buttons in case you need to press them in the future.

This strategy works only if you execute with the utmost subtlety. Simply blurting out everything you find distasteful about her after she has already lowered the boom will make you look feeble and hurt. You want to agree with her and then add your own opinion of the reasons for the failed relationship as if you understand her difficulty and are trying to make the whole process of dumping you easier for her. At first, she will approve of your “maturity” in handling the situation; later, when what you have said sinks in, she will seethe with hatred for you.

An example of this happened to me with a LAWYER chick I had dated for a couple months. She didn’t return one of my text messages for two days so I knew what to expect when she finally called. I answered the phone prepared:

Her: I have something to tell you…

Me: Yeah, me too.

Her: You do? Well go ahead, what did you want to say?

Me: No, you go first. I didn’t mean to interrupt.

Her: Well, OK… I’m sorry about this but I just don’t see us working out…

Me: I know…

Her: … and I don’t think… you know?

Me: Yeah, we’re not a good match. You’re looking for something else, and I’m looking for a more down-to-earth girl.

[NOTE: Every chick lawyer’s open bleeding wound is being thought of as too uptight, snobby, and anal. Telling a lawyer she is not down-to-earth is like rubbing rock salt in the wound.]

Her: Down-to-earth?

Me: I guess I was hoping it would work itself out.

Her: [Switching into snippy lawyer-talk mode] Well, I’m glad we can agree on this. Good day.

Oh I had hit pay dirt. Sure, I didn’t want the good times to end but at least I stopped her momentum dead in its tracks and left her with steam coming out of her ears. The proof of this is in what happened six months later when she saw me sitting at a sidewalk cafe table with some friends — she approached me and looked visibly nervous as she practically shouted how great it was to see me. My deft handling of the breakup had seared an indelible impression in her mind. Robbing her of the closure every woman needs with a breakup is a surefire way to keep the attraction simmering.

With great hate comes great love.





Comments


  1. Brilliant! The key, as you say, is to recognize the exact point when her attraction for you had died, but before she delivers the break-up.

    What are the signs of the relationship being at the point of no return?

    I can think of these: she delays in returning your phonecalls; doesn’t conter-offer with another day when she can’t make a date; and the big one — the “dead eyes” effect when talking with you.

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  2. Anyone notice that Roissy deleted the comment that linked to his pic on the other post?

    For someone who has no compunction critizing women’s photos via the “Relationship or Fling” posts, Roissy seems awfully think-skinned when it comes to his own (rapidly aging) looks.

    Can dish it out but can’t take it, eh?

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  3. Women are all nutbags. You must be bad ass every minute in order to deal with them. With great hate comes great hate.

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  4. ah no fun, i am curious to see what he actually looks like. then i can point and laugh…..

    jk

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  5. Roissy seems awfully think-skinned when it comes to his own (rapidly aging) looks.

    you must have me confused for one of your beta suitors.
    i’ve been getting real life threats from you squealing pigs i have inflicted so much pain on so anonymity is of the highest priority.

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  6. Yet another godlike post. I almost can’t wait to use these. I feel like a terrible person. Cool.

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  7. roissy-

    you wrote a post about keeping your old girl’s naked pictures on your computer. another guy called, he had a special ringtone in the chick’s phone, blabla. it was a ridic post.

    what happened to it? cant find it….

    did a girl make you take it down?

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  8. This anonymity sucks. Well, I guess that’s why we’re on the internet in the first place and not talking about this stuff with colleagues at work.

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  9. Timing is everything; you need to act right after she has made up her mind but just before she announces her intent to leave.

    The hard part is knowing for sure that she’s made up her mind. If you’re wrong, and in fact she hasn’t decided to dump you, well you’ve then ended a relationship that maybe didn’t have to end.

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  10. In Roissy’s defense — and I can’t believe I’m saying this — his criticisms of women’s pictures are done without identifying who the women are. He’s not putting any names to faces. So while it may be a bit cruel, it’s not going to do any actual damage to those women.

    Having his own picture available, though, means that people who would like to meet Roissy, for good purposes or ill, now have a photo to go with a name — even if the name is pseudonymous. I can’t say I blame him for not wanting to have that around.

    Re: The post — that was mostly tongue in cheek, right? Why is it so important to you that you “win” the breakup? That is, what’s the positive outcome for you? That she may want to have sex with you in the future if you maintain the upper hand through the breakup? I guess that makes a sort of sense, but it just seems easier to find another girl and not worry about all the breakup hassle.

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  11. Wouldn’t a real Alpha Male have left up a link to his own pic?

    What does it really say that Roissy deleted not only the link, but any thread that mentioned it? Kinda seems like the censorship we all complain about on the feminists blogs, doesn’t it?

    I thought Alpha Males were confident and had a Teflon-like ability to deflect criticism — if they even noticed the criticism at all! Methinks all Roissy’s huffing and puffing is a cover for a huge Beta complex he can’t come to terms with.

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  12. wow, the comments sidetracked by comment #2! This is a new record, people!

    As with many blogs, we first start anonymously, writing from the depth of our ‘id’ and our skewed vision on life. Then, when we gain a small following, we become a little arrogant and narcissitic, wanting to share more intimate details about life and perhaps show our faces. Then, we realize that the combination of spilling your heart + depravities + posting photos is NOT OKAY. It’s a full invasion of privacy that we had unleashed on ourselves. I’m not sure how privacy and alpha-ness relate. I’d actually say that more self-secure people don’t want to put their personal business out there.

    How did we both write about break ups today? Did you break up with my friend Claire?

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  13. I’m genuinely confused, here. If this lawyer chick was the sort to flake out on you, etc. – why would you care what kind of impression you left, or whether her attraction was still simmering?

    Seems like there’s an awful lot of strategy to manipulate the opinion of someone you’re not likely to see again – not when you have so many other, more appealing options.

    Right?

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  14. reggie: So while it may be a bit cruel, it’s not going to do any actual damage to those women.

    correct. my words alone bring the pain. and judging by my growing collection of stalkers looking to take it to real life, i’d say my words are finding the juiciest soft centers of my targets.

    Why is it so important to you that you “win” the breakup?

    winning is its own reward.

    That is, what’s the positive outcome for you?

    tactical retreat.

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  15. dizzy’s tranny twin charmed the pants back on me:
    Wouldn’t a real Alpha Male have left up a link to his own pic?

    a real alpha does not demonstrate courage with a mugger by walking into his line of fire.

    What does it really say that Roissy deleted not only the link, but any thread that mentioned it?

    there are only two ways of speaking the complete truth – anonymously and posthumously.
    – thomas sowell

    Kinda seems like the censorship we all complain about on the feminists blogs, doesn’t it?

    please look up the difference between censorship and anonymity and get back to me.

    Methinks all Roissy’s huffing and puffing is a cover for a huge Beta complex he can’t come to terms with.

    even if i were an obese pimply bald virgin stuffing myself full of cheetos in my mom’s basement playing world of warcraft the truth of what i say about the dire consequences in the dating market for the slovenly afeminine ballcutters and the whiny betaboy losers WOULDN”T CHANGE ONE IOTA.

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  16. lovely rina meter maid:
    Then, when we gain a small following, we become a little arrogant and narcissitic, wanting to share more intimate details about life and perhaps show our faces.

    as i told vk about this — there is no halfway gay.
    and, yes, narcissism is my fatal flaw.

    I’d actually say that more self-secure people don’t want to put their personal business out there.

    you keep reminding me why i like you.

    Did you break up with my friend Claire?

    i once dated a girl named claire. distance broke us up.

    dagny attempted the play action:
    not when you have so many other, more appealing options.

    why did genghis khan keep conquering new lands when he had so much territory and so many concubines already?

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  17. Man you were clearly scarred brutally by a lawyer.

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  18. I think you misunderstood my question, Roissy. I certainly don’t doubt that you have plenty of other options.

    Rather, I’m questioning why it is that you seem to care so very much about a person you’re discarding anyway. I doubt Genghis Khan cared very much about whether his sloppy seconds had enough to eat, let alone cried over him.

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  19. I’m curious as to why someone with the level of game you claim to have would ever need a plan for when a girl decides to dump him. Shouldn’t a master such as yourself be able to keep her interested for at least as long as you’re interested in her?

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  20. Speaking of sweetness….

    Balvenie doublewood 12 year

    hmmmm…

    …and 14 year old girls.

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  21. dagny: I’m questioning why it is that you seem to care so very much about a person you’re discarding anyway.

    couple points. in the interest of accuracy this post was about girls discarding me. when i do the dumping i am on my best behavior (tho i usually leave the window open for welcome relapses). even roissy the rake is capable of kindness.

    two, it’s not her i care about, it’s myself. i like the feeling i get from depriving a girl of the flush of victory or satisfying denouement she would normally experience after breaking up with a guy.

    matt: Shouldn’t a master such as yourself be able to keep her interested for at least as long as you’re interested in her?

    love is chaotic. a man is no jedi master if he has no familiarity with the dark side of the force.

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  22. “why did genghis khan keep conquering new lands when he had so much territory and so many concubines already?”

    That’s not a great analogy, since it would seem to translate to you — or any man who’s had a relationship end — simply moving on and seeking new conquests rather than worrying about old ones.

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  23. “a real alpha does not demonstrate courage with a mugger by walking into his line of fire.”

    What a dramatic allegory! Except no one is mugging you, Scarlett.

    KassyK still puts pics up even after she was stalked and harassed last year. Guess Kassy is a bigger Alpha than Roissy. Hell, Arjewtino is a bigger Alpha.

    Just the fact that you’re bending over backwards explaining why you removed posts means you’ve long left Alphaland.

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  24. dizzy why do you keep changing your handle? please, it’s unbecoming of you. for the readers’ benefit i suggest sticking with a nickname like “horse semen tastes good going down”.

    Except no one is mugging you, Scarlett.

    threatening to contact my business associates is the internet version of a mugging. i won’t speak for other bloggers but i like to avoid pointless and unnecessary risk. and let’s face it, what i write here pretty much shits all over every PC shibboleth the larger culture holds dear, making me a marked man in polite company. i have good reason to maintain online anonymity.

    Just the fact that you’re bending over backwards explaining why you removed posts means you’ve long left Alphaland.

    i didn’t remove any posts. try to keep your facts straight.
    and you might want to avoid references to bending over. the horses get excited when you talk dirty like that.

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  25. I have to say I’ve experienced the type of break up you’re talking about here at least 50 times with the same man and yes it does keep the attraction going; torturous though it may be. Sometimes it was me doing the axing but he always wanted me back; and me him of course. The sex was fantastic and after some time goes by, like childbirth you forget the pain and you’re back at it like nothing ever happened. Why suffer when you love someone? Life is too short.

    Women are so easy to manipulate as you well know, as sex puts us in chemical bondage to a particular man. If this is a man with whom we don’t already have a huge of amount of trust; it’s akin to playing Russian Roulette. Sex (good sex especially) makes us adhere like gorilla glue to ANY man. It’s why you find women enjoying conjugal visits with serial killers in prison. It says nothing obviously about the merits of the man. He is simply using her own chemistry against her though not consciously. It’s never conscious. People who are truly conscious don’t have the kinds of idiotic women problems that you (Roissy) and many of your posters go on and on about here, now do they?

    I’m not defending women’s ignorance and ease with which they engage in sexual intercourse with total strangers. Ultimately women are responsible for their own pain and happiness.

    Thankfully I’ve learned to overcome my own biology and finally make a permanent break after six years. In the meantime enjoy your illusions of grandeur, power, and “control”. Enjoy your FEELING of power I should say, because obviously you are a miserable human being and the only thing that probably keeps you from committing suicide are these thoughts and plots of revenge and sharing them with others. Revenge is not such a horrible thing, but it’s nice when you can move and realize that fun as it may be, you’re only dealing with chemical bondage and not love and in effect are wasting your time and hers.

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  26. cool, a “Clockwork Orange” reference. that movie captures perfectly the essence of being a 17 year old male.

    and to all the hideous femjects assailing the master: regardless of someone else’s circumstances, you are still hideous and unwanted. the fact that you spend so much energy here (in spite of your supposed distaste for the subject matter) proves beyond reasonable doubt that your lives are empty and bitter. irina, hope, and clio, however, are prime 🙂

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  27. cjm – yeah, irina, hope and clio have the blessing of femininity which sets them apart even when they are disagreeing with me. their collective sweetness could slay my id demon. or at least tame it for a bit. i believe there are reasons for their pleasant dispositions.

    irina — still young and cute with many years of dating ahead of her. the lack of urgency to meet a man keeps her whimsical and open-hearted. her relative inexperience with failed relationships has protected her from dating ennui.

    hope — also young and attractive. she has married a man who cares deeply for her. i suspect she is lacking strong passionate love in her life but she seems to be happy nonetheless with the other benefits her husband gives her. i think she harbors a dark secret.

    clio — though she is past her prime i think she was a beauty in her youth and probably is attractive for her age now. she has the memories of good relationships with men from her past and that helps shield her from bitterness. she is smart enough to sublimate her need for love in her intellectual pursuits.

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  28. Now now, don’t jump to the conclusion that a woman is hideous just because she’s critical. I’ve met too many angry feminist knockouts to believe that. Some women have bad dating experiences that leave them angry with male tomfoolery (great word, eh?). I did too, but I’m old enough to have gotten over it.

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  29. One last point: I think one problem a great many younger women have is that, coming from small families without a large network of relatives, they don’t know how to see male b.s.ing for what it is. I have three brothers – who certainly don’t talk about women the way you boys do; I also have many male cousins, and they do talk about women in ways that make my hair stand on end sometimes. But guess what? They’re still pretty decent men, when all is said and done.

    Young women today may have male friends but often those friendships are messed up by sexual tension on one side or the other; meanwhile they don’t have male relatives with whom they can spend time casually and get to know that a certain degree of gross-out talk and humour doesn’t always mean a man is a villain. And even men who are rakes – well, I won’t defend them, being a conservative through and through – but they often turn out quite well as they get older. I’ve seen it happen enough to be convinced of that.

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  30. It’s weird to me how a lot of the female commentors here act like they’re forced to read the content and feel compelled to impress Roissy with their wit and snark. I sometimes wonder if this blog isnt one giant neghit to sow and cultivate the fields of potential future bootycalls.

    Think what you will, ladies. Roissy is better at this game than you are.

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  31. roissy’s game is decent but he is far from a jedi master.

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  32. on December 14, 2007 at 7:41 am secret asian man

    Roissy!

    What is best in life?

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  33. […] what we’re talking about today is a particular brand of schadenfreude on which I’ve been missing out, and here’s […]

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  34. Kind of on the train of what Alias Clio was saying:

    One thing in common between anger and being unattractive is that they both limit your options personally and socially.
    Unattractiveness is limiting obviously because of how others percieve you and also your own low self-esteem. Anger is limiting because in its grip you have no option but to act and react in the context of your anger. (pride has a part to play here.) This is especially malicious for women because anger automatically rules out using our best traits.

    Isn’t that what we really want is options; options in what we wear, choosing a mate, how we relieve stress, spend our free time? When you think about it options are the hallmark of the content, confident person.

    Anymore you’d think that the ability to kick anyone and everyone’s ass is the way to personal freedom. But it’s not because with that kind of freedom comes fear; fear that someday someone will come along who can knock down your house of bricks. It’s a fucking rat race. (Are you listening Roissy?)

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  35. Now now, don’t jump to the conclusion that a woman is hideous just because she’s critical. I’ve met too many angry feminist knockouts to believe that.

    Not that I’ve done a statistically valid poll or anything, but it’s my impression that most of the more stridently feminist women I’ve known over the years have tended toward the extremes in the attractiveness department. They’re either quite hott, 8’s or above, or down toward warpig territory. Not a whole lot in the middle.

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  36. roissy comment #28 i read in miss cleo’s voice

    call me now…

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  37. meanwhile they don’t have male relatives with whom they can spend time casually and get to know that a certain degree of gross-out talk and humour doesn’t always mean a man is a villain.

    yes! this is why i’m totally comfortable reading this blog and many like this, my cousins have already said all of this stuff in some way shape or form to ‘teach me’ the ways. they’ve all already worked on their speeches for my wedding,too. they believe that they will be to thank for any happy nuptials

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  38. Here is a question or a thought-experiment for Roissy:

    Is it possible to turn a healthy 25-y.o. Omega Male into an Alpha?

    Let’s say, you tasked yourself with such a project and gave it a year plus the Omega’s full cooperation — is it doable in ways that it is NOT doable to turn George Costanza into an NBA all-star?

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  39. PS: this thought-experiment relies solely on an Alpha’s tutelage of the Omega.

    Highly improbable status-changing miracles like the Omega’s suddenly becoming rich and famous don’t count.

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  40. tracy: roissy’s game is decent but he is far from a jedi master.

    a jedi knight does not use the full power of the force at his disposal on antagonistic… dating gurus. 😉

    s.a.m.: What is best in life?

    love.
    and the occasional lamentation of a woman.

    rina: call me now…

    867-5309?

    pa: Is it possible to turn a healthy 25-y.o. Omega Male into an Alpha?

    it’s possible, but not probable.
    mastering his game with thousands of approaches and the help of an alpha mentor will take an omega to a greater beta, maybe a lesser alpha, but i believe true alphaness will elude him if he has known nothing but failure his whole life and he is burdened with too many negative attributes. one can’t overcome all of one’s genetic legacy — some will always linger.
    however, the more success he tastes with women, the more he will internalize the proper beliefs and project the image of a “natural”.

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  41. CJM – It’s such a shame that I’m subprime. I’m a feminist, which makes me so totally ugly. It’s fun being ugly, because I don’t need that bra I torched and men never ever talk to me. I’ll just be sitting here undermining the patriarchy and counting my layers of blubber.

    Like many feminists, I don’t care about being judged on my appearance. So calling me ugly is sort of pointless. That’s like saying, “you’re a lousy basketball player!” to someone who doesn’t know what a basketball is.

    What is it about this site that inspires tortured analogies? Seriously, Roissy, you should give out a Tortured Analogy Award.

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  42. cjm 27: “assailing the master”? If roissy is a master of anything worth knowing I’m the Queen of England.

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  43. I can only imagine your comments are directed at me being the poster before you, but correct me if I’m wrong. Ahem…

    “hideous femjects assailing the master: regardless of someone else’s circumstances, you are still hideous and unwanted. the fact that you spend so much energy here (in spite of your supposed distaste for the subject matter) proves beyond reasonable doubt that your lives are empty and bitter. irina, hope, and clio, however”

    I’m deducing from your comments that you’re a major ass kisser and if you saw pictures of me it would burst your so called power of perception bubble in judging what a person looks like or their attractiveness to the opposite sex because of some comments they made which apparently hit a sore spot with you.

    If women who are attractive to men physically, intellectually, and emotionally is something that makes you actually listen to what they say, you ought to be reading my words with a more open mind. A little respect even, but if you value and respect roissy there’s not much chance of that.

    I seriously care not one whit what you or anyone thinks of my comments. I make them because I want to and I think they’re valuable obviously and for no other reason.

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  44. Why do people have to start out right off the bat painting their asses into a corner?

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  45. I read #45 as “Painting your ass IN a corner”, and I started to wonder how flexible I’d need to be to paint my own ass.

    I need caffeine.

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  46. shannon prickled: Like many feminists, I don’t care about being judged on my appearance.

    you may not care, but the merciless machinations of the sexual market do.

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  47. Please tell me roissy, what is the difference between a man’s “gaming” i.e. playing on a woman’s ignorance, insecurity, desires, needs, etc. in order to get sex and a woman’s playing on a man’s ignorance, insecurity, desires, needs, etc. to get money?

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  48. Roissy, I’m really more of a snorter or guffawer than a prickler. (I wish there was an emoticon for cheery sarcasm.)

    I believe in upkeep, because what’s on the outside reflects what’s on the inside. But I’m not going to be upset that a random wacko on the Internet doesn’t think I’m pretty.

    Getting back to the original post, I think both men and women try to “win” the breakup. It’s a silly pride thing, but people are pretty silly.

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  49. sara – it seems the public is crying out for a post on game and its perception as a tool of manipulation.
    bottom line: Game is no more manipulative than wearing makeup and a hot cocktail dress is for women, though in the hands of a skilled operator Game can be used to nefarious ends.
    think of game as a way for a man to best market himself so that the woman is most receptive to his product.

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  50. a^2: no, i wasn’t referring to you; haven’t read your post(s)

    shannon: did you post on this thread ?

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  51. You didn’t answer my question.

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  52. I wear makeup and cocktail dresses but don’t take men for their money, though I certainly could. Men love to offer me the world or at least a trip around it. Nothing would please me more than a sumptuous vacation to an place I’ve never been before which would not be difficult to achieve because I’ve traveled very little in comparison to what I would like.

    This is my point if it’s even possible to make it with a person who seems as single purposed as a mosquito in his quest for lubricated vaginas; Ahem. Is it possible for you to consider how you might FEEL if you knew that a woman was pretending to like or even love you as a PERSON (i.e. human being) in order to have access to your MONEY.

    And furthermore assuming you are a feeling and thinking and valuable human being (at least in your own eyes) would that not piss you off or even (God forbid) HURT you just a teensy weensy little bit? Or would it just roll off you like water on a duck’s back?

    Pardon me, but gaming is nothing more than that. Nothing more than the male’s version of Anna Nicole Smith. A whole new “players” game needs to be constructed. One where both WIN. Oh no!! One where both are authentic. The Mystery method has done nothing more than further that cause since the wonderful televisual feast on MTV or VH1 (I forget), because now (of course) highly desirable women (such as myself) are even less likely to be taken in by the “negs” and all of that stupid bullshit.

    Trust me, Roissy I am as hot as they come. But there’s still time for you to grow up, so don’t give up hope.

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  53. “A whole new “players” game needs to be constructed. One where both WIN. Oh no!! One where both are authentic.”

    Authenticity is a good thing, and I don’t want to deny that. Nor do I think that people ought to misrepresent themselves by lying or by assuming an entirely false character or personality when they mix with others in social or sexual situations.

    That said, though, I believe that it’s necessary to put on a kind of mask, or persona if you like, to be able to function in the world. It’s necessary for self-protection: you don’t want to reveal all your self-doubts, uncertainties, and vulnerabilities to people who don’t necessarily care about you or have your best interests at heart.

    If that sounds a little too egotistical to you, then I’d point out that putting on a social “persona” also serves to protect the people around you from being exposed to your own less pleasant qualities: resentment, envy, vanity, and the like, vices to which all people are subject and which we do well to try to suppress, or better yet to destroy altogether.

    Your social persona shouldn’t be inauthentic or “fake”: it should work with your own best qualities rather than against them. I think – I’m still not sure of this – that the “Game” business can be a way of teaching men how to find a confident persona that will enable them to take risks in pursuing the women they find attractive. If it works, if it’s done well, it should enable men to accept rejection without wallowing in bitterness and resentment. That’s a good thing, since much of the violence of men against women is inspired by this kind of resentment.

    Of course, men, I’m not saying that all or most or even a large number of you are like this – just that it’s too common.

    Mind you, I suspect that some of the men who adopt Game (like “Mystery”), were wallowers of that kind at some point in their lives, and are still trying to come to grips with the mixed feelings of anger and insecurity that women provoke in them. “Game” may make them dangerous in a new way, as they take out their feelings of resentment by psychic torture of the women they date instead of the sulks and tantrums they might once have adopted when women rejected them.

    I don’t think, though, that this is what Roissy is really trying to encourage – though there is a fair amount of resentment still manifest in some of his posts. And still more – bordering on pathological fury – in the occasional commenter. Perhaps with a bit of success in the dating world, they’ll learn to let it go. At least, that’s what I hope comes out of it.

    “The first duty in life”, said Oscar Wilde, “is to find a good mask. No one has ever been able to determine what the second duty is.” (That’s a paraphrase; it may not be quite accurate but it’s close.)

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  54. Darwin wrote the first (and last) book on “game”. Game isn’t about men vs women, it’s about men vs men; i.e someone is going to be occupying that VJ and it might as well be me.

    Oh, people who go around saying “I’m as hot they come”, aren’t. It’s equivalent to spam.

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  55. Nice post 54. Anyone who quotes Oscar Wilde is O.K. by me. I feel that you’re trying your best to be kind and understanding– even motherly–to the guys who use game to bed women. It’s nice of you but at the same time counter productive to their maturation process. It simply doesn’t work with guys who are already so entrenched in passive aggressive behavior they can’t find their way out. All they know is that women are frequently pissed off at them. So what do they do in response? Up their game! Get even more scheming and analytical.

    The mind is a bridge between body and soul, and often we get stuck on the bridge going around in endless frustrating circles….experiencing the same problems over and over, especially for some of us, in the romantic/sexual areas of our lives. Personally I find that more than the gentle approach. a shock works better.

    In my observation and experience humans are slow dimwitted creatures, who learn in driblets unless a shock or multiple shocks are applied either externally or internally. Something has to wake us up over and over. As a woman who has been taken in by game players once too many times, learning body language has finally opened my eyes more than anything else.

    And #55 cjm: Your counter to my “I’m as hot as they come” was expected. I would have said the same thing.

    Here’s a little scenario to consider:

    One of roissy’s posters recently asked him if his game was so good, why couldn’t he manage to keep a woman around for sex as long as HE was interested in having sex with her? Never letting her get wise to his game, so he could continue to control the situation.

    Isn’t that the same as a woman asking another woman why she couldn’t deceive a man as long as she needed to in order to buy that $400 dress, with matching shoes, purse, jewelry and accessories she desires?

    No one here seems to want to address the correlation that is highly apparent to me. The bottom line is that game = manipulation. One knows the game and the score and the other is being deceived. Obviously the ones who need to wake up are the ones who are BEING played. No doubt about that, but how about having the gamers take some response-ability regarding their own personal contribution to Life in Hell.

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  56. Game is just a tool. Whether it’s used for good or ill depends of the man’s character.

    Game can seem like manipulation or subterfuge when used by a novice. Otherwise, it’s simply charm.

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  57. Game=Manipulation? I thought that too, when I first read about it in a magazine article on Mystery and his followers. When I first came across this blog (after Roissy linked to mine – I think because of a series of posts I did on male and female “heartbreakers”), I was horrified by both the language and the attitudes here.

    I kept reading because I thought it would be a good way to arm myself against misunderstandings with men. And over time I’ve changed my mind, somewhat, about Game. There is a manipulative element to it, but I don’t think its purpose is to deceive a woman by any means in order to seduce her. It has more to do with teaching men how to dodge the skepticism and sarcasm with which women handle male advances, keeping them (the men, that is) secure enough to handle it. This post, for instance, is mostly intended to show you how to save face when someone is losing interest in you, surely something we can all understand.

    Another ex. – when I read Roissy’s posts on how to tackle a situation in which another man is “moving in” to try to approach the group of women whose interest he’s trying to secure, I actually thought, “yes, that makes sense”. It didn’t involve lying to women – just recognising that a certain level of confidence and detachment is very appealing to us. Game actually appears to discourage boasting, spitefulness, aggressive wallet-flashing, too-early touching, and other disagreeable signs of male insecurity. Even the “negs”, which I hated when I first read of them, are not meant to be insulting, more a kind of playful teasing. Like Benedict and Beatrice in “Much Ado About Nothing”.

    The kind of men I’ve come to distrust most are those who affect a very sincere and sensitive persona, and use this to win over women who are immune to male charmers. Of course, sincerity and sensitivity aren’t always an affectation, but they are often enough – and a very effective form of “game” in their own way. I’ve never forgotten how one of my most hard-headed feminist friends described one such man: “I didn’t know when I met him that you should never trust a man who calls himself a feminist.”

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  58. Please tell me roissy, what is the difference between a man’s “gaming” i.e. playing on a woman’s ignorance, insecurity, desires, needs, etc. in order to get sex and a woman’s playing on a man’s ignorance, insecurity, desires, needs, etc. to get money?

    Even ignoring this mischaracterization of game: Sex is something BOTH people tend to enjoy, while the money transfer is zero sum.

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  59. ^ zero sum? What are you talking about?

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  60. 58) Clio: In a mere blog it’s easy to misunderstand, assume and extrapolate as far as what a persons opinion might be on other subjects based on their opinions on one subject. Personally, if I HAD to choose I would pick a game player over a feminist man any day of the week. In my experience, feminist men are extremely insecure men who despise their own gender and believe men are the root of all that’s evil in world. We are equal but opposite. If the equality were not there, the attraction would not be so great.

    I notice you highlight the word detachment. Detachment is a highly desirable state. Unfortunately it’s difficult to distinguish detachment from indifference. In my understanding detachment is more a feminine trait and in many ways I see “game” as a role reversal between male and female. Men “qualifying” women, showing indifference (the negative) OR detachment in order to get women to “chase” them. We all know what happens when women chase men. Men lose interest very quickly and why wouldn’t they? In the meantime sex make a very large percentage of those same women chemically bonded to same and in a world of shit. Been there.

    positive vs negative male qualities
    1. adventure vs violence
    2 initiative vs aggression
    3. creative vs destructive

    positive vs negative female qualities
    1. detachment vs indifference
    2. lethargy vs a gathering pool of accumulating energy
    3. receptivity vs inaction

    Of course we all contain masculine and feminine, thank you Carl Jung. But when men act “detached” I get “disinterested”.

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  61. Dear Mr. Rain And 59): For your information men DO get hurt by women who use their wits and sexuality to entice them into spending large amounts of money on them when deep down the women know they have no real interest in the man besides their money. Men aren’t as nigh invulnerable as you might like to believe. If nothing else it gives them the creeps and makes them feel used and dirtified.

    So here’s a little wake up call. Some of us are “sensitive”. As a woman I can attest to the fact that I have experienced deep hurt, outrage, and regret about having had sex (whether I enjoyed it in the MOMENT or not is irrelevant) with a man I later found out KNEW that he was just using me for sex; knowing that what I wanted was a lifelong loving partner who saw me as a human being and wanted the same thing. It’s highly insulting to me to be simply used for sex. Sorry! But that’s the way it is for most heterosexual women if I might be allowed to speak for them.

    Bottom line, though it’s not a politically/socially correct opinion: Victims create victimizers and slaves create masters much more than the other way around. Instead of crying wolf, I’m wising up and trying to become more aware and assertive

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  62. Please let me set the record straight. Feminism is; in one word: STUPID. “The View” is in fact “Mind Rot”, and Oprah Winfrey is a big phony. Please don’t anyone ever accuse me of being a feminist. Anything but that. Both of my parents are feminists and I don’t go home much.

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  63. sara, zero sum describes a strategic interaction between agents that results in one loser and one winner – one person’s gain is another’s loss and vice versa. Look up game theory, the are of applied math and economics, not seduction.

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  64. Thank you DF. Even with your explanation I haven’t the faintest what Rain And’s point was or if he/she had one.

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  65. These are some very sensible comments by alias clio:

    Your social persona shouldn’t be inauthentic or “fake”: it should work with your own best qualities rather than against them. I think – I’m still not sure of this – that the “Game” business can be a way of teaching men how to find a confident persona that will enable them to take risks in pursuing the women they find attractive. If it works, if it’s done well, it should enable men to accept rejection without wallowing in bitterness and resentment. That’s a good thing, since much of the violence of men against women is inspired by this kind of resentment.

    Thanks for pointing out the “social persona” thing. Lots of people don’t get that, and insist that everyone should “just be yourself,” otherwise, you are “putting on an act.” For some people, what you see is what you get, and it’s that simple. Other people don’t work that way. Particularly if you have a history of social isolation, you might not have developed a proper social persona during childhood and adolescence, making it necessary to develop one in adulthood.

    In my view, one reason that so many adult men learning game often behave immaturely, like, well… teenage boys, is because they never got to be normal teenage boys.

    I kept reading because I thought it would be a good way to arm myself against misunderstandings with men. And over time I’ve changed my mind, somewhat, about Game.

    I admire that you have developed your own opinions of what the game is about, despite the existence of some men who actually embody the negative stereotypes of it.

    Game actually appears to discourage boasting, spitefulness, aggressive wallet-flashing, too-early touching, and other disagreeable signs of male insecurity.

    Yup, which everyone ignores, because it doesn’t fit their preconceived notions of what game is supposed to be like.

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  66. sara said:

    Please tell me roissy, what is the difference between a man’s “gaming” i.e. playing on a woman’s ignorance, insecurity, desires, needs, etc. in order to get sex and a woman’s playing on a man’s ignorance, insecurity, desires, needs, etc. to get money?

    The assumption in this paragraph is that game is necessarily related to “playing on” female “ignorance, insecurity, desires, needs,” in order to “get” sex. Certainly, some types of game are like this. Yet I think your terms are in need of further scrutiny.

    Ignorance? Ignorance of what? Are women ignorant that men often want to have sex with them? And that not all of those men will also want relationships?

    Insecurity? The primary time that pickup methods are supposed to play on a woman’s insecurities is when she has an artificially-inflated ego, such as some (but not all) hot women in night clubs. In that case, deflating her ego is necessary to have a real interaction with her. Now, some people say, “but those women are just blah blah blah, you don’t really want them anyways.” But how do you know that? Such a perspective seems very judgmental of women.

    “Playing on female desires, and needs?” What exactly does “playing on” mean? If it merely means fulfilling, then I don’t see anything wrong with that. Pickup artists are indeed interested in fulfilling women’s sexual desires, at least to the best of their ability. Or perhaps by “playing on,” you mean that pickup artists act like they are going to fulfill women’s desires for intimacy, emotional connection, and relationships, but then fail to do so. If this involves an element of intentional deception, or negligently leading someone on, then I have a problem with that, too. However, we can’t always get what we want out of relationships, and this is something that women need to get used to; when there is no deception involved, there is no grounds to say that a man “played on” a woman by not reciprocating her desire for a relationship, or by being picky enough about female relationship partners as women typically are about male relationship partners.

    If a woman is consistently getting seen as just a sex partner by men, then the practical solution for her is to learn game instead of sitting around complaining, just like the pickup artists realized that they needed to learn game instead of whining about how women only saw them as friends. Men, even pickup artists, get feelings for women and fall in love… just with a smaller subset of women than the subset of women they are attracted to. Women who are in that smaller subset typically have several characteristics in addition to being at least moderately good-looking: (a) they have other interesting qualities besides their looks, (b) they have pleasant personalities, and (c) they chose guys who would see them as relationship material. Of course, female game is different from male game. It may manifest as gold-digging in it’s negative and crude forms, but in its most positive form, women with the type of game I’m talking about easily form emotional connections with men such that the men develop crushes on them.

    Actually, the more women work to make themselves appealing relationship partners, the better male game will be for them.

    A lot of men with game + a lot of women with no game = lots of men seducing women who turn out to bore them, and then moving on to the next

    A lot of men with game + a lot of women with game = lots of people having sex but eventually finding partners that they like even to have more serious relationships with

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  67. sara said:

    I feel that you’re trying your best to be kind and understanding– even motherly–to the guys who use game to bed women. It’s nice of you but at the same time counter productive to their maturation process.

    How do you know this? Exactly how many pickup artists have you helped mature with your approach of lumping them together, and making unfounded generalizations of the nature of what they do? Sorry to sound a bit snappy… I just can’t stand it when people so confidently state assumptions that they have no arguments or evidence for (of course, this is a flaw that even I am not immune to).

    Personally, I think clio’s approach of validating the experiences of these men, while stating her own disagreement with some of their views that come out of resentment, is far more constructive.

    It simply doesn’t work with guys who are already so entrenched in passive aggressive behavior they can’t find their way out. All they know is that women are frequently pissed off at them. So what do they do in response? Up their game! Get even more scheming and analytical.

    Certainly there could be men out there like this, but I’m not sure which ones you are talking about. In the absence of evidence for your arguments, it seems that you have developed this preconceived notion of what game is like, that you are trying to shoehorn everything into.

    As a woman who has been taken in by game players once too many times, learning body language has finally opened my eyes more than anything else.

    Awesome. That’s exactly how we are taught to read female body language so we don’t get hurt by women who turn out to not be interested in us.

    No one here seems to want to address the correlation that is highly apparent to me. The bottom line is that game = manipulation. One knows the game and the score and the other is being deceived.

    I know of ZERO schools of pickup that advise men to deceive women. In fact, the current trend is to make obvious your relationship availability or lack thereof. The fact that you consider game to involve deception suggests that you are conflating the type of game that is learned by Roissy and others on the internet, with other types of game that might be practiced in real life, or that you are criticizing men who diverge from what is commonly advocated. I don’t deny that these men exist, but many people consider deception antithetical to game, or even a sign of weak game.

    As for manipulation, that’s become a meaningless term in this type of discussion. Manipulation is used to mean so many different things, but was rarely explained is exactly why something is manipulation or what exactly makes it wrong.

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  68. Sorry these responses are so long; they just hit on a few of my pet peeves.

    sara said:

    So here’s a little wake up call. Some of us are “sensitive”. As a woman I can attest to the fact that I have experienced deep hurt, outrage, and regret about having had sex (whether I enjoyed it in the MOMENT or not is irrelevant)

    Whoa there. Irrelevant to you maybe. But not necessarily irrelevant to him.

    with a man I later found out KNEW that he was just using me for sex; knowing that what I wanted was a lifelong loving partner who saw me as a human being and wanted the same thing. It’s highly insulting to me to be simply used for sex. Sorry! But that’s the way it is for most heterosexual women if I might be allowed to speak for them.

    OK, I do have a problem with his behavior, if indeed he knew that you wanted to a relationship, he knew that he would never want a relationship with you, and he had sex with you anyway. I’ll accept your account here.

    At the same time, you, and other heterosexual women who you may speak for, tend to have certain attitudes or behaviors that increase the chances of this type of situation happening, make it worse when it does, or make other situations look like this one when they are really different.

    Let’s start with your phrase: “knowing that what I wanted was a lifelong loving partner who saw me as a human being and wanted the same thing.” Presumably, you had sex with him because you believed that he could be such a partner, then felt hurt when he turned out to having no such intention. That’s understandable. Yet the way that you seemed to need to think of him as a prospective “lifelong loving partner” before having sex probably make this worse for you than it needed to be. Before even having sex seems like a bit early to start thinking of someone as a prospective lifelong loving partner. If you place the consideration of a man as a lifelong loving partner later in the relationship, then there is no need to be so hurt when a man turns out not to be a lifelong loving partner earlier in a relationship. If you hadn’t voiced that goal to him, then there would be no need for him to deceive you (not that it is justified), and the main thing you would be feeling now is relief that you are rid of someone who isn’t looking for the same thing you are, rather than resentment.

    In fact, this preference for only having sex with prospective lifelong partners will seem as unrealistic and silly to many men as a woman saying, “I want angels to come down and play trumpet around our bed while we are having sex.” So it will be no surprise that some of them won’t respect that wish.

    The other interesting phrase is being “used for sex.” If you consented to sex, and you enjoyed it at least in the moment, then you weren’t “used” for anything. You might have reasons to complain about his behavior, but being “used” isn’t one of them. It’s just a silly phrase that our culture foists on women that induces them to deny their responsibility for sex just because it didn’t lead to relationship outcome that they wanted. Women who have sex with men need to stop seeing sex as a promise of a relationship, but rather as a way of testing whether both people would want a relationship.

    Women who you speak for are often hurt by deception by men, yet there are other things that result in them being hurt:

    – Their own naivete. Which isn’t there fault, but it isn’t necessarily the guy’s fault, either

    – Outdated notions of romance like the ones above that our culture forces on women

    – The fact that people don’t always want the same thing, which isn’t necessarily anyone’s fault

    – Being typically picky, ignoring most men, and setting their sites on the high status men who have many options, or on men who have obvious attitudes and goals that tend away from relationships (when these women hook up with certain types of guys and find that it’s only a hookup, the response in this case is, “…and you are surprised, why, exactly?”)

    – Not realizing that men are human too, and aren’t necessarily sure about what they want. He might not know that he doesn’t want a relationship until after sex. If he ends it, she might assume that all he wanted was sex all along. But this might not be true: he might have been open to a relationship, and just decided that he didn’t want one with her.

    This might not apply to your situation, but I find that many women are too quick to jump to the “I was used for sex!” victimization line rather, than considering more complex scenarios that might involve men being unsure, men changing changing their minds, unfortunate mismatches in who wants who in what way, or the women looking at their own behavior and at why guys might want, or not want, relationships with them.

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  69. Rock on Hugh.

    And I feel your pain Sara. But here’s the thing. Retain your right to enjoy sex in all its glorious forms. Don’t you dare turn a good experience into a bad memory just because it didn’t turn out the way you wanted it to in the light of day. Because then you get into the mindset that sex is really important and is an offering you’re making to him in hopes he’ll give you something in return. This mindset actually makes girls put out more, not less, and with worse results.

    If you really want to wait for a lifelong partner get the hell off the fence and make the decision that you won’t sleep with a guy till you’ve known him a while. And then don’t throw it out the window on the first pretty face. Get yourself a vibrator and hunker down. The only sure way to never feel used for sex is to not have sex.

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  70. Remember, even players will treat you good if that’s the only way they can get you. I might even say especially players because they know their craft. Girls are just too damn easy, that’s all.

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  71. I think what it comes down to is this: all human beings owe each other kindness and honesty. If game is your way of putting your best foot forward, then go with it. If game is your way of getting what you want from people, regardless of how it may affect them emotionally, then you’re a jerk. The distinction is whether you are concerned about the well-being of others, or simply your own.

    I wish more women would talk turkey with a man BEFORE getting into bed with him. Are you seeing or sleeping with anyone else? Is this a relationship or are we free to see other people? What do both of us want from this? If the man refuses to give you a straight answer, don’t sleep with him. And if you aren’t comfortable talking about sex? Don’t do what you can’t discuss.

    The best way to get respect is to earn it, to have strength of character and insist on being treated honorably.

    I have an issue with women who sleep with men, then claim the man used them. Yes, sometimes there is deliberate deception involved. And there are a lot of jerks out there and it’s happened to most women. But there’s a point where you need to take responsibility and not play the victim.

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  72. First let me say I’m highly impressed with the thoughtfulness of the replies to comments here. Have never experienced this before! So #1: Thank you.

    Would like to respond to HughRistik #67:

    You ask ignorance of what? Ignorance of the INTENT of said player and ignorance of her own biology. The cure for ignorance regarding intent is ASK and TELL. Ask what his intentions are and tell what her intentions are. Simple enough, but few take the simple route. Not enough drama, I assume.

    About the biology; let’s face it, shall we? Most (but not all obviously) women express commitment BY giving men their bodies whether they know it or not. The body is given and heart and mind soon follow. They may think before sex they have control of the situation and in fact they do. After sex? NO. She has given up control because of her biology. Our behavior by and large is related to our SPECIES and specifically whether we’re male or female.

    Have you ever dated a woman, began having sex and almost exactly three months later–mark your calendars!–been confronted with “the talk”? The “where are we going with this?” talk? It’s no coincidence that it takes three months for a fetus to become viable. Birth control or not, her hormones are signaling loud and clear that a baby may have been created. She needs to secure the situation. I don’t care if she is chairman of the board and had a hysterectomy! This is taking place on a subconscious level of course. After all, she is a modern woman! “Equal” to any man. (The problem is “equal” does not mean SAME.) Why shouldn’t she be able to enjoy sex just like they do? Why not indeed? The truth is she CAN if she decides to consciously overcome her biology but bottom line she will usually get very anxious after around three months time and will have to deal with it.

    You ask about insecurity and state ” The primary time that pickup methods are supposed to play on a woman’s insecurities is when she has an artificially-inflated ego”. Hmmm. So is she egotistical or insecure or both? Probably both. And if she’s both, then the primary attraction is physical, else why do you want to hit on insecure egotistical women? The problem is many women feel that when the attraction is “physical” what it means is that a man is “physically attracted” to her. What it really means in the scenario you seem to be painting here is that the part of the woman you are attracted to is her BODY. You might like to believe that you could learn to love all kinds of things about this egotistical and insecure woman given enough time, but let’s be realistic, shall we?

    Regarding “Playing on female desires and needs”; you stated “when there is no deception involved, there is no grounds to say that a man “played on” a woman by not reciprocating her desire for a relationship”. True indeed. And woman rarely want to be played, let me tell you. It hurts and pisses us off like nothing else. But going back to the ignorance issue. It’s HER job to avoid that because obviously she cannot count on all men to be forthcoming about their long range plans in dating or even to consciously KNOW what they’re intention is in dating at all in the first place! Most women don’t even know! They know more what they DON’T want when it happens and trust me, MOST do not want to be “played”.

    Bottom line, we should only be dating those who have the same intention in dating. There’s no right or wrong in whatever anyone’s intention may be. Hooking up with those who don’t have the same intention is crazy making.

    Reading further on in your comments I see that we do in fact agree about how to reduce the suffering. The war between the sexes has never been fought more fiercely than it is now but the the up side is we have a much better chance of finding genuine true love and enjoying equal partnerships for the first time in human history.

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  73. hugh: The other interesting phrase is being “used for sex.” If you consented to sex, and you enjoyed it at least in the moment, then you weren’t “used” for anything.

    exactly.
    a woman who complains of being “used for sex” is just engaging in self-absolving, post-hoc rationalizations for why she wasn’t able to fully leverage her sexual favors in return for resources and commitment from the man she slept with.
    men owe women nothing except the pleasure of their company in return for sex.

    shannon: I think what it comes down to is this: all human beings owe each other kindness and honesty.

    no they don’t. like respect, kindness and honesty need to be earned.

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  74. Roissy, being kind and honest is also something I do for myself. I owe it to myself to be a good person and make the right choices in a complicated world. I think you owe kindness and honesty until the person has been proven unworthy of those things.

    You seem to take more of an economist’s view of relationships, as in, sex can be exchanged for goods (jewelry) and services (companionship). How depressing.

    Sara, I don’t fully agree with you. Mainly because I get tired of hearing “women are like this, men are like that.” There are differences between the sexes, I just find that a lot of overgeneralizing goes on. Some women can separate sex from love, and some men can’t. It’s better to figure out who you are as a person than throw it all up to sociology and psychobabble.

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  75. Reply to comment #68. Hi HughRistik.

    About the mothering thing: The biggest player I personally know and had a six year on off entanglement with doesn’t have what it takes to relate to an authentic, passionate woman and because of that has chosen instead (in the off phases) to be with (sorry!) “Jewish mother” types all of his adult life. They are all virtually the same woman with different hair. They are the types who are particularly attracted to men looking for a mother’s love. I was the only one who would not (pardon the ordinariness of this expression) put up with his bullshit. I would not baby, understand, excuse, rationalize his lies, concealment, fear, timidness, fence sitting, manipulation, etc. etc.

    My opinion is colored by my personal experience obviously but in general, women learn from their mothers how to baby men and treat them like children. Men take such women for granted, as they did their mothers. Then there’s the whole “Why men love bitches” thing. Well, they really don’t. Men love assertive women, but love having sex with–egotistical, insecure, though hot–bitches and may in fact become sexually addicted to them. And vice versa I might add.

    You state: “I know of ZERO schools of pickup that advise men to deceive women.” Is “The System: How to Get Laid Today: Unillustrated Version By Roy” not one of the presiding bibles of pickup artists any longer? I read through some of it this morning and it ain’t very pretty. If the current trend is to “make obvious your relationship availability or lack thereof” I’m all for it.

    Manipulation in my understanding is like this; Purposely procuring something from someone they would not give consciously or freely give…..and you know it!

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  76. Reply to comment #69. Hello again!

    Your response to “(whether I enjoyed it in the MOMENT or not is irrelevant) was: “Whoa there. Irrelevant to you maybe. But not necessarily irrelevant to him.” Of course MY response to THAT is Who cares? Sorry, but I’m not here to make sure he gets what he wants from me whether I want to give it or not. Not that that is entirely what you meant; reading on.

    You said: “At the same time, you, and other heterosexual women who you may speak for, tend to have certain attitudes or behaviors that increase the chances of this type of situation happening, make it worse when it does, or make other situations look like this one when they are really different.” A-fucking-men to that. I mean Amen. You know what I mean. I”m all for NOT playing the victim. Bottom line, unpleasant as it may be, on a subconscious level I WAS ASKING FOR IT. So I’m learning not to ask for that any longer. It’s been the most painful but worthwhile effort of my entire life. A lot of father issue…..I won’t bore you.

    In response to “the way that you seemed to need to think of him as a prospective “lifelong loving partner” before having sex probably make this worse for you than it needed to be. Before even having sex seems like a bit early to start thinking of someone as a prospective lifelong loving partner.” No. Never too early! Why not? I won’t even date someone who does not have the same intention in dating. I mean it has to be out front befor the first date! Yes, I know. It goes against any and every dating rules book and how to hook him like a fish and all of that crap. I really don’t care, because the masses who follow that bullshit are not very happy examples of success though many are hooked into buying the books.

    Listen. I have men pursuing me. Rich men, poor men, young men, old men. They love that I’m authentic. It makes me extremely mysterious. As a result I have many great male friends. Young and old. But I’m not taking my panties off again unless it’s looking real good in the very very long term.

    From you: “Women who have sex with men need to stop seeing sex as a promise of a relationship, but rather as a way of testing whether both people would want a relationship.” I think I addressed this earlier. Understand that having sex with a man is a promise from ME, so naturally I want the same thing from HIM. What is, is! Sex and love and commitment are all one and the same to me. Why would I waste precious time getting bonded to a man who does not feel the same?

    From you: “women are too quick to jump to the “I was used for sex!” victimization line rather, than considering more complex scenarios that might involve men being unsure, men changing changing their minds, unfortunate mismatches in who wants who in what way.” This goes back to men and women basically diddling and dithering about being unclear about what they want, what they’re “deal breakers” are, etc. and then being very upset that they don’t get what they want. Agreed on this point for sure.

    P.S. Life is good. Life goes on. I’m getting over it. Thank you.

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  77. #70, Lisa: Hi! I appreciate your sentiments and good wishes. I got a kick out of this; “then don’t throw it out the window on the first pretty face. Get yourself a vibrator and hunker down. The only sure way to never feel used for sex is to not have sex.”

    That is definitely where I am for the last five months and however long it takes and yes, he did have a very pretty, if deceitful face. I’m not just crying wolf here. I’ve seen enough pictures of him (past and present) with other women and with my new hard won knowledge of body language, I can see it in virtually every picture.

    You also said players will treat you good to get what they want. Oh yes. Foot rubs, breakfast in bed. Lots of hand holding, cuddling, doing errands, cooking, phone calls three times a day. Quite easy to get fooled. They do definitely know their craft. I see now that the craft seems to have taken over his entire personality as he’s gone on to a very naive motherly type of woman who’s fallen head over heels for him. But he still has the same crooked, sly, smug smile–the one that was right in front of my face. And guys, don’t get upset. I read body language at this point like an expert.

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  78. Greetings Roissy. Your response to Shannon “respect, kindness and honesty need to be earned.” I’ve followed the “trust unless proven untrustworthy” dictum my whole life. Respect and kindness were just natural to give. What I realize now, is since the advent of language (about 40,000 years ago) we now unwisely put way too much trust in what people SAY. Furthermore what we say non-verbally is sending strong signals to others. We might subconsciously be saying “kick me” and wonder why we get kicked.

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  79. This from “The System: How to Get Laid Today: Unillustrated Version By Roy”:

    “As you carry out this flirtation, your voice should shift from serious to playful. Your body language must be confident. Push your chest out whether standing or sitting. Shift from a sly smile to a smug look at will. She’ll be reading your every move in her effort to calculate your intent or next move. Her desperation to satisfy this curiosity will make her available to various types of suggestions. She’ll find it all exciting and will be surprised at herself in the morning. Nothing will stop her from biting the hook.”

    OOOWHEEE ladies! And this is just the tip…

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  80. Sara you’re FINE. You’re just fine and figuring some things out and don’t let anyone tell you different or change you. You just got sprung is all and that happens to all of us. Let’s talk. e-mail me. (hopefully the link will show up on my name?)

    “Respect and kindness were just natural to give.”

    Keep on giving the respect and kindness b/c those are attractive qualities. Don’t throw away your good side because of some pimptard.

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  81. Hi Lisa. Thanks again. No you’re email doesn’t show up but we can keep in touch here. Don’t worry, I am not going to let one idiot ruin my life. After all, without intending to, he added so much to my life. So much awareness. I am not a man hater and have never been. It’s me who defends men more than anyone I know. I’ve been venting and bashing unscrupulous “pickup artists” because from my understanding up to this point, they are users and it’s an ugly game they play.

    Guess I’ve been out of the loop because now I’m told there are “scrupulous” pickup artists. May take a while for me to get my mind around that concept but I will try to be more open minded. Some of these guys are very persistent. Which is an attractive quality, I must admit. A man who can stand up to a woman and say “NO, it’s not like that”, or NO, you’re not going to talk to me that way” is a big turn on. Too many men have had their spirits broken in one way or another and have turned passive aggressive instead of assertive. Assertiveness turns us on long term to no end, guys. But I repeat myself.

    Our society is so screwed up, that in most relationships we have a combination of passive, aggressive, or passive-aggressive men and women. It’s no bloody wonder that everything turns to shit so quickly! Personally, I’ve been passive-aggressive, passive, and aggressive and experienced all three in my three longest term relationships. Now I’m finally learning to be assertive. It’s a world of difference, but takes the motivation to change life long habits.

    Back to kindness and respect. We can safely be kind and respectful, with awareness. Without awareness in general everything turns to crap. With awareness, everything turns to gold.

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  82. P.S. to above. O.K. I apparently lied about not having anything against any man but the one I mentioned. In general I’m not particularly qualified to deal with passive-aggressive behavior or lies, or manipulation (see above definition) from anyone.

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  83. sara, it’s okay 🙂

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  84. Thanks Dizzy. Bottom line, we could all be more conscious about everything. As I understand it, Tantra has the ability to transform any man and woman who practice it into “soul mates”. It sounds tremendously more practical than trying to FIND one’s soul mate out of billions of people and a 70+ year life span. The western approach is endless circles of analysis. We’re not going to analyze our way to happiness. I’d like to learn Tantra and start really enjoying sex instead of just talking about it.

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  85. Want great sex? Too much talk and not enough action? Sick and tired of the games, skirmishes, and battles? Learn Tantra.

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  86. You and she, you and she.. not you and her, when you’re the subjects of the sentence.

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