There Is No Such Thing As A Bar Girl

Commenter LauraByNight wrote on yesterday’s post:

This seems to suggest that a good strategy for finding quality girls is to avoid looking in bars and clubs, and maybe to avoid spending most of your time in places full of high-powered, high-strung women. I realize that this could be difficult for some men, depending on their jobs.

It also suggests that the old-fashioned idea of meeting potential mates through family and friends, or in school or at work (rather than a place where most people are hoping to find someone to fuck) would yield a higher return rate.

I hear this assertion all the time from those who believe that quality girls can’t be found in bars — “Oh, well of course if you go to a bar you’ll only find bar whores, what did you expect?”. The time has come for yer not-so-humble narrator to grind this idiotic meme into dust.

Here is a representative sample of the occupations of ten girls I met in bars:

Lawyer
Med student
PR flack
Pharmaceutical saleswoman
Smithsonian curator
Art gallery owner
Bartender (different bar)
Marketing
Teacher
Waitress/student

Here is a representative sample of the education levels of ten girls I met in bars:

Ivy league (2, including one Harvard grad)
Seven Sisters (1)
State school (3)
Grad school (3)
Never went to college (1)

Here is my informal judgement of the IQs of the last ten girls I met in bars:

150 (1, she was weird)
130-150 (1)
115-130 (2)
100-115 (5)
under 100 (1)

Here is a representative sample of the dress style of ten girls I met in bars:

Conservatively dressed (5)
Sexily dressed (4)
Sluttily dressed (1)

If it isn’t yet obvious to the “bar girls are low quality” brigade let me spell it out for you: Girls who go to bars are the same as girls you meet anywhere else. They are not an exotic subspecies of womanhood. I understand the impulse of the Loser Mafia to want to disparage girls who are confident enough to go to bars and scoop up tons of male attention, but the facts don’t bear out the comforting belief. That classy, smartly attired girl with her pink Ipod who’s picking through the organic bean sprouts at Whole Foods is the same girl who was at the bar last night hitting up chumps for free drinks.

Think about it — if you were an attractive girl why wouldn’t you go to a bar while you’ve still got it? You’d be negligent not to. A girls’s urge to feed her ego and take the measure of her sexual market value is intense, and bars are perfectly suited for maximum assuaging and feedback. Where else can she command the attention of so many men in such a short amount of time and limited space? (Tip: this is why you should never consider a bartender for a long term relationship. Any girl who chooses to go into bartending is a Ninth Order Attention Whore who needs hours upon hours of male flirtations and social stimulation just to feel human.)

But there are girls who insist they never go to bars. I believe them. These are the kinds of girls you will rarely find in a bar at night when the mating bazaar is wide open for business:

Fat chicks (usually not more than 10%)
Over 30 women
Ugly chicks

Fat and ugly chicks don’t need their fragile egos pummeled any more than they already are by exposing themselves to the hormonally heated competitive environment of a bar. If you are a fatty fucker you don’t need to go to bars; just step outside and walk the earth. If you’re a freak who likes ugly chicks, trawl Craigslist W4M. Fucking horror show.

Over 30 women are either married and off the market or unwilling to go pert breasts-to-sagging breasts with the younger competition. I don’t blame them. It’s easier to maintain an illusion of desirability if you never leave the house.

Attractive single girls who, for reasons of principle, heavy work schedule, or visceral dislike of the scene, never go to bars are a tiny subset of the total number of attractive girls. But just because they loathe bars to the point of active avoidance does not automatically impart them with a glowing halo. They just get their attention fix through other means, like, oh, to pick an example completely at random, blogs.

Attractive girls who are in happy, committed relationships are often the biggest propagators of the “bars suck” meme, because in their lovestruck haze they have forgotten just how many nights they used to go out to bars. Their opinion is of no use to any man trying to figure out where to meet women.

I once did the smart, enlightened thing and dated a “quality girl” I met at a painting class I had signed up for. While we were dating, I bumped into her at my favorite bar at 1AM, drinking with her friends.

Only suckers throw away their time and money chasing the elusive “quality girl” through events, classes, or expensive but socially approved status-whoring hobbies. Bars are free.





Comments


  1. Preach!

    Like


  2. Hey Roissy,
    You have a flaw in your calculations:

    “Fat chicks (usually not more than 10%)
    Over 30 women
    Ugly chicks”

    Bachelorette Parties ( which you addressed in a previous post)

    Otherwise, dead on.

    Like


  3. How are bars free?

    Like


  4. on August 27, 2008 at 5:00 pm jonathanjones02

    There should be a distinction made between girls who go to bars (I agree, there’s a fairly wide variety) and “bar girls” (these are fairly numerous and should be avoided by anyone looking for a “quality” girl).

    It seems to me that a fairly decent indicator is the amount of blatant attention-seeking that occurs on a week to week basis.

    Like


  5. To be fair, the types of “quality” girls you’ve found are found only in the big city.

    I doubt there’s much quality in the average, small town, redneck bar.

    Like


  6. However, I completely agree with this post.

    Like


  7. on August 27, 2008 at 5:27 pm random passerby

    “I understand the impulse of the Loser Mafia to want to disparage girls who are confident enough to go to bars and scoop up tons of male attention, but the facts don’t bear out the comforting belief.”

    You, too, are part of the so-called Loser Mafia. You just don’t know it.

    “Think about it — if you were an attractive girl why wouldn’t you go to a bar while you’ve still got it?”

    I’m a decent looking man and I’ve never gone to a bar. Why? Because it’s not my thing, and because I don’t drink. It stands to reason that there are also women who just don’t care for it.

    Personally, I’m not interested in anyone who visits bars.

    Like


  8. I’d say 75% of the broads in this town who are in a relationship met their boyfriends/husbands in a bar. This percentage is even higher for Hill chicks. When you ask these girls how/where they met their dudes, notice the look of shame of their face when they say “at Cap Lounge/Adams Mill/Cha Chi Lounge/etc”. No girl wants the story of her romance to start at a bar but most of them do. So, Roissy’s right, that’s where the action is.

    Like


  9. Only suckers throw away their time and money chasing the elusive “quality girl” through events, classes, or expensive but socially approved status-whoring hobbies.

    Activties like those often have a relatively even balance of men and women and sometimes can actually have more women than men. Bars, on the other hand, have a tendency to be a fiesta de chorizo. If each even semi-decent girl has five or ten men lusting after her, the bar scene stops looking so good.

    Like


  10. huh, good post… makes a LOT of sense

    Like


  11. @ 7 random passerby

    i’m a decent looking man and I’ve never gone to a bar. Why? Because it’s not my thing, and because I don’t drink. It stands to reason that there are also women who just don’t care for it.

    Personally, I’m not interested in anyone who visits bars.

    let me be the first to thank you. you don’t want to go to bars, awesome! the less competition i have the better.

    way to cut your dick off to spite your face

    you remove about 80-95 percent of the women from your potential hit-list by not going to bars. congrats… make certain your switch hands at night, wouldn’t want to introduce a curve to that puppy.

    oh, and someone that comes out and states they “don’t drink” is doing nothing more than qualifying their alcoholism. way to be a booze-hound… congrats once again

    Like


  12. on August 27, 2008 at 5:56 pm Patrick Bateman

    While you may certainly be able find high quality girls at bars and clubs, I am positive that low quality sluts have a stronger preference for that scene than high quality girls do. But even these low quality girls are negligible when compared to the mass of normal girls you find at a club. All things considered, bars and clubs are a better bet than other pick-up locations. The girls you find at the bookstore are only slightly better on average, but gaming is harder in that environment and there are far fewer of them.

    Like


  13. (Tip: this is why you should never consider a bartender for a long term relationship. Any girl who chooses to go into bartending is a Ninth Order Attention Whore who needs hours upon hours of male flirtations and social stimulation just to feel human.)

    -Ha. This advice actually could work for girls too. So so true.

    Like


  14. Bars are free, but they are still bars, even though this is DC and it is urban, there are great trails and athletic activies that are just as free and the women I meet doing that sort of stuff are usually more interesting than the sloots I bed after a bar encounter. While you are probably right with the bar demographic, what you are missing is how interesting are these women? THey work and have impressive vocations and they….. hit bars. Nothing wrong with bars, but if you meet girls other places they arent as linkely to get fat the second you agree not to sleep with anyone else and will probably have a deeper social circle.

    Like


  15. I’m an over 30 chick who went to a bar last Friday and ended up with three men hitting hard on me, and of course there was Kathy. We like to pretend. The reason I don’t go out more often is the music generally sucks. I’m in it for the music and only went because my two very young friends invited me. See, roissy, some people are just individuals and don’t fit the mold and image you love to try to force people into.

    Like


  16. on August 27, 2008 at 6:46 pm Dr. Grzlickson

    I met Mrs. Grzlickson in a bar in 1947.

    Like


  17. There is such a thing as a bar-WHORE.

    That is a gal or guy who will sleep with just about anyone rather than go home alone. The STD risk with such people is high because of the ridiculous numbers of people that they have slept with.

    There are good bars and bad bars where the clientele is going to be of some quality or of some lousy quality. After-hours bars, in my experience, have an overabundance of drug users, real bikers, and used-burnt-out human beings. Anyone can look around a bar and tell if the clientele is of professional people with something going for them vs. low-rent humanity who are not only mired in, but like, nowheresville.

    Like


  18. on August 27, 2008 at 7:15 pm Dr. Grzlickson

    “re is such a thing as a bar-WHORE.”

    I’ll thank you not to refer to Mrs. Grzlickson that way. Or there will be fisticuffs.

    Like


  19. In your last post on quality girls, you list out the following attributes defining quality (and I’m paraphrasing here):

    * Doesn’t cheat (often)
    * Thankful
    * Serial monogamist
    * Doesn’t cheat (at all) if she’s long distancing it.
    * Every day personality is positive and sincere.
    * Cares most about what you think
    * Doesn’t flirt with other men in your presence.
    * Emotions are not blunted by experience
    * Not too easy.
    * Not a feminist.
    * Not too easy (restated)
    * Not listed but later stated in a comment: “the most educated girls are often the least qualified for long term commitment”

    Several commenters pointed out that you are less likely to find girls who posses these characteristics in bars. Now in your email defending the quality of girls that you meet at bars, the attributes you chose to focus on to refute their claims are:

    * Occupation
    * education levels
    * IQ
    * dress style

    Why don’t you tell us about how the girls you meet at bars measure up to the attributes from your post on quality girls? Why are you focusing on these other qualities?

    Like


  20. Most men who go to bars/clubs to find new girlfriends end up disappointed. There are tons of quality women there, but the chances of a normal single man meeting a remotely desirable woman at a bar/club without a pre-existing common circle of friends is slim. There is a certain class of charismatic men (such as Roissy) that just seem to be able to go to any bar/club in any city without knowing anyone and meet new women and have a great time, but they are the exception.

    Bottom line, if you enjoy going to bars/clubs for their own sake, or you are having luck with women, then great, enjoy it! But if you are going to bars/clubs to meet women and are frustrated by the lack of results, I’d seriously suggest avoiding the nightlife scene because your odds of success are low. If you are having trouble meeting women and your day job doesn’t offer any opportunities, take a class or volunteer somewhere where you see people on a regular natural basis.

    Like


  21. Try the recreational venues: triathalons, marathons, urban indurance races, bike clubs. Marathon training groups create social bonding.

    Like


  22. Excellent point Brandy. Roissy?

    Like


  23. Great wake-up call man.

    I’ve been doing some really intense day-game lately, using the exact rationale you’re arguing against, “oh, I’ll meet nicer girls.” But no, I see now it was a crutch, a beta rationalisation because my logisitics aren’t right for anonymous bar-sarging just yet.

    Thing is, this is what PUA’s have been saying – that you meet a better quality kind of girl during the day, bars just being a necessary evil because of the easy quantity of hot girls. This is the first time I’ve heard them called out on it.

    It actually takes quite a long time to find a beautiful girl to approach during the day. And once you do, the approach is still way more difficult than in a bar and all the walking around and endless face-processing is exhausting.

    Think of it this way.
    Daytime – entire population 1-120 years old. Of that 50% are women. 17-24 year olds in my age range. So maybe 10% in range. Of that 10%, maybe 3% worth approaching. Of that 3%, how many have boyfriends, are in bad moods, will give you the time of day yadayada? .05% might go anywhere.

    Nightime – Bar. Large numbers of girls in the age range, self-selected and boucer-selected for attractiveness. Go to the right bar and maybe 80% in my age range, I’d say 40% worth approaching, depending on my libido. If libido is high, possibly 65% worth approaching.

    Like


  24. Good Lord.

    Bars sluts, bar girls, bar whores, bar nuns.

    Blah. Blah. Blah.

    Go out. Have a good time. Be confident in who you are. If you meet women you like, good. If it’s a sausage fest and your spend the night yuking it up with the guys over longnecks and the yankess-sox game, fine.

    You guys try to damn hard. Seriously.

    Like


  25. Bars are free?

    I rarely buy girls drinks. But purchasing up a few beers yourself seems pretty normal.

    Marathon training teams – the problem with the ones around my area is they all meet at 6 AM on Sat and Sun mornings… Right… last call is 1:30 AM.

    As for the occupations/IQs, they HAVE to be higher in DC and NYC than any other city. Smaller cities in the 50K – 300K simply do not have these high quality of girls in the average bar.

    Like


  26. Roissy:

    This is your first post that is complete bullshit.

    I won’t repeat Brandy’s comment, but will second it.

    Also don’t make a straw man. The argument that you are better off looking for women outside the bar is statistical, i.e. not involving platonic categories. There is no air tight rule that says that no quality girl ever goes to the bar, nor is there a rule that the girls you will meet elsewhere will be quality girls. Yes, yes, yes, skanky hos are everywhere, even at church, while nice girls occasionally go out for a drink or to do some dancing. The thing is that these this is all probabalistic. The question is where are you _more likely_ to meet a quality girl?

    Quality girls tend to go to bars less significantly less often, sometimes not at all.

    That classy, smartly attired girl with her pink Ipod who’s picking through the organic bean sprouts at Whole Foods is the same girl who was at the bar last night hitting up chumps for free drinks.

    It may indeed be the the same girl, but then it’s a pretty trite observation that sluts and attention whores have to shop for food too. Again this is all probablistic. The girl at Whole Foods is significantly more likely to be a quality girl than the one at the bar.

    I repeat bars tend to self-select for sluttiness and attention whoring.

    Think about it — if you were an attractive girl why wouldn’t you go to a bar while you’ve still got it?

    All girls like attention, but some girls actually care about the quality of the attention they get.

    Also, if you are a quality girl, chances are you want a quality guy, and you are significantly less likely to find one at the bar, ergo you tend not to go to bars to meet guys.

    A girls’s urge to feed her ego and take the measure of her sexual market value is intense, and bars are perfectly suited for maximum assuaging and feedback.

    More intense in some, less intense in others. The ones with less need for attention will go out to bars less. Again pretty elementary.

    Sebastian Flyte:

    It actually takes quite a long time to find a beautiful girl to approach during the day.

    Malls, IKEA, megachurches, bookstores, libraries, university campuses, subway/rail transit, drug stores (especially those with good make-up counters), grocery stores, trendy neighbourhoods, teacher conventions. Beautiful women are everywhere.

    And once you do, the approach is still way more difficult than in a bar

    “Hi, my name is X, and I wanted to meet you.” FTC. Cue funny story about your life.

    It’s all in your head, man.

    all the walking around and endless face-processing is exhausting.

    View it as exercise. Instead of taking a walk out somewhere where nobody is around, go to one of the places where girls are. Supplement with weight training.

    Like


  27. Girls who go to bars are the same as girls you meet anywhere else.

    Actually, that’s not necessarily true. Girls who go to bars are certainly more likely to have at least some interest in: drinking; flirting; getting attention by any number of means; potentially hooking up with stranger. You yourself have complained about these tendencies in previous posts, even as you reap the short-term benefits of them.

    (Note that I’m not saying that everyone who goes to bars automatically engages in excessive behavior, but bar-hanging certainly sets the stage for excessive behavior in a way that a lot of other social outlets do not.)

    As Brandy astutely pointed out, there was no mention of education, career or status involved in your Quality Girl assessment, so there’s no point in tossing those into the mix now simply because you’ve decided to leap mercurially to the defense of the women you’re usually denigrating. It’s not ridiculous to suggest that if you’re really looking for a modest, chaste, honorable woman, that it’s probably most sensible to expand the search to include places other than bars before you declare the need to run off to Poland or Croatia or wherever.

    Like


  28. I STRONGLY disagree with this post. I’ve been in the field for quite some time now…not saying I have banged more chicks than you (Roissy) but I can assure you this. You can take the girl out of the bar but cant take the bar out of the girl. The quality girls you speak of constitute less than 1% of the DC bar population. Bar Chicks are only worth a good f**k. Who found a good wife at a bar?

    Like


  29. Roissy, my comment yesterday was apparently unclear.

    If your primary goal is to have sex with hot women (and, if so, more power to you) bars are the place for you. Your original item, however, seemed to refer to attributes other than being beautiful and promiscuous. The “quality” girls you described do not sleep around and thus probably spend less time in bars.

    Of course most single women go to bars. I did when I was single. But there’s a difference between going to clubs sometimes for fun with friends (and, yes, being open to the possibility of meeting a guy you might want to see more of) and haunting them nightly in order to meet strange men to have sex with.

    Sure you can meet nice, decent, “quality” women in bars. But if you limit your search solely to the bar scene, you’re cutting off a lot of other venues where the nice girl:slut ratio is a lot higher. On the other hand, if you want as much sex as possible with as many different women as possible, then sluts are what you’re after and bars are the places to be.

    Like


  30. I agree with Roissy, and think Thursday is wrong for the following reasons:

    1. There is no “institution” designed to guide the romance/mating rituals of young men and women, as in times past. The urban anonymity makes everything a consumer choice. Hence Bars are the default institution such as it is.

    2. Women outside bars don’t like to be approached, unless it is by someone who is a top player. If you’re a celebrity, in the top 1% of fitness, attractiveness, wealth and power, no problem. For Joe Average, problem.

    Women resent attention and hassles unless they go to places where they expect pickups. Which is … bars.

    3. Malls, Megachurches, IKEA etc are filled with beautiful girls … with their boyfriends. Or with their girlfriends on social occasions. Again women are not receptive to being approached and dislike it unless you are a celebrity class guy.

    4. You won’t find a “quality girl” anyway, unless you are a celebrity-class guy, so why bother? We live in a post-monogamy, post-marriage, single motherhood world. It is not going to change anytime soon. This is the social reality.

    The arguments against looking outside bars: low concentrations of women, requiring exhaustive effort to merely find an attractive (much less beautiful) woman, who will be unreceptive to all but the most celebrity-class of men, likely be there with boyfriend or girlfriends, and most of all, conditioned response of rejection. Failure rate for the Average Joe, even with PUA skills and so on, will approach 99.99%.

    The only “social institution” for men and women to meet for sex/love/romance is … bars. That’s it.

    There is an article on CNN, adapted from Oprah’s magazine, about a woman who is “happily married” but dreaming of divorce. Her objections: her husband is not a celebrity fantasy, and she could get a hotter guy. This is our social reality so fairly meaningless hookups is going to be as good as it gets for almost all men. Celebrities and moguls excepted.

    The misogyny sure to result from that culture … is just the price women pay for absolute freedom. Everything has it’s price.

    Like


  31. on August 27, 2008 at 10:15 pm Days of Broken Arrows

    “Girls who go to bars are the same as girls you meet anywhere else.”

    Except they’re the ones with a sky-high need for drama or attention.

    I agree with Thursday and the others that this post doesn’t quite make it — and it’s at odd with the previous one about how to snag a quality women. Also, I’ve never known any successful marriage to come out of meeting at a bar. Most seem to start in college. Flings, of course, are a different story.

    Like


  32. 30: The only “social institution” for men and women to meet for sex/love/romance is … bars. That’s it.

    OK, so you’re going to eliminate alllll the other venues because…you’re setting them up to fail with ridiculous blanket assertions like, “women outside of bars don’t like to be approached,”, and “there are no quality girls anyway, or if there are, they already have boyfriends….”?

    You’re setting yourself up to stick with the status quo: limiting yourself to bars as the only venue so you can complain about how you encounter too many sluts in bars. Because that way it’s everyone else’s fault, not yours.

    A lot of us don’t give a crap about celebrities, moguls or alphas. If you’re encountering only women who do, perhaps you need to broaden your outlook. We can’t hunt you guys down, after all: it wouldn’t be demure.

    Like


  33. I love chicks that say they go to bars for the ‘musac’……yeh and men talk to women because they find female conversation interesting…..

    Being related to several conservative, habitually ‘single’ teachers (if there’s one job that breeds lesbianism…….) I find it interesting they hit the town all the time for the ‘music’. Mind you the lasses are sub 6’s so getting any attention is difficult.

    Like


  34. Women outside bars don’t like to be approached, unless it is by someone who is a top player.

    Bullshit. Women are happy to be approached anywhere, they just want it to go down right. If you do do it right, even if they do have a boyfriend, they will often give you gushing compliments. “You’re so cute.” “You’re so articulate.” I get so many good responses from just stopping girls wherever that I can’t help but think you haven’t actually done much approaching during the day.

    Malls, Megachurches, IKEA etc are filled with beautiful girls … with their boyfriends.

    Malls: No, girls tend to shop with other girls.
    Megachurches: Certain ones are known to have the most singles. Best pick one near a university. Yeah, if you pick one way out in the suburbs it can be tough.
    IKEA: You must be confident enough to open mother daughter sets. They are everywhere there.

    Or with their girlfriends on social occasions.

    The biggest problem with day game is the moving two set, which you will encounter a lot in a shopping environment. They aren’t hard to stop, but one of the girls almost always get’s bored or jealous and wants to move on before you can get the number. Her friend won’t leave her, so you’ll get those adoring eyes looking back longingly at you as she gets dragged away. Very difficult.

    Like


  35. Anon —

    I am not speaking for myself. Though anecdotally, I have found success in bars more than other places.

    I suspect that is because I am not immediately put in the “friends” category i.e. “I’ll never sleep with you” and am a stranger, therefore much more attractive.

    But that’s a data point of one, so it could be highly suspect. Anecdote is not data.

    I am talking about the total lack of any other “institution” where it is socially acceptable to approach women, who wish (mostly) to be approached. In certain manners.

    GONE: are the “church dances,” and town socials and all the other “mating” institutions by which men and women sought each other out, on a relatively level playing field, where assortive mating took place. Like to like. The accountant marrying the schoolteacher.

    Among other things, it is considered quite rude and inappropriate to try and pick up women in these places, hence the “meet cute” cliches of Hollywood trying to get around that barrier. Bump into each other and mix up papers, girl falls onto guy, etc.

    I don’t think there are “quality” girls/women in any appreciable number because there is no social disapproval of affairs and the like. Thus no reason to seek out what does not really exist. I do think women found in casual encounters are mostly with boyfriends or in a group of girlfriends intent on female bonding make a pick up attempt completely pointless and futile.

    If you look back to say, 1948, within living memory, all those institutions that made bars marginal places instead of social hangouts are just GONE.

    I certainly don’t blame women for their disappearance — that’s due to what Roissy rightly dubs the “metropolitan anonymous” urban churn. But the short-term dynamic of endless hookups which leave women dreaming of Mr. Big is certain to produce …

    Do most women care deeply about status, attractiveness and testosterone. There is enough evidence that says YES! in capital letters. Celebrities and the like are markers of that, but you’ll find it in the exploding single motherhood rates. Women are not stupid — they chose to be single mothers because (as in the Oprah Magazine cite above) they prefer it.

    A lot of guys because of the aggregate choices are unmarried and thus expressing misogyny. Which they would not if they *WERE* married. This is entirely predictable, and women will just have to bear this as a consequence. It is not their “fault” just the predictable result. Like having to punt on fourth and 20.

    Like


  36. The one advantage of the bar is that the women are more likely to be single.

    But even that is mitigated if you shoot for the girls in the 21-26 year old range. Trying to find a single woman 27+ using day game can be pretty brutal, at least in my city.

    Like


  37. it is considered quite rude and inappropriate to try and pick up women in these places

    It’s all in your head. Remember, give value and the girl will want you to stay.

    Like


  38. whiskey 30:

    There is an article on CNN, adapted from Oprah’s magazine, about a woman who is “happily married” but dreaming of divorce. Her objections: her husband is not a celebrity fantasy, and she could get a hotter guy.

    That article was a sickening act of public betrayal of a husband by a wife who is clearly soul-sick with resentment and passive-aggressive rage against what seems to be a pretty decent guy. It was as sure a betrayal of her husband as if she’d publicly fellated another man on Oprah’s tv show.

    And what a liar she is! She says she could never disparage her marriage, and then proceeds to hold her husband up for public ridicule and contempt over minor failings (like his being a morning person) and an accident. Hardly divorce material over the course of 12 years. Just more proof though, that being a nice guy beta gets you f*ck all from women in today’s sick sexual culture.

    I would like to find Mr. Beta Husband and tell him to a) immediately start fucking around on his worthless c*nt of a wife; b) initiate divorce proceedings a la SAM (I think), who outlined a male-protective divorce strategy a few posts back; c) publicly describe in intimate details his sexual fantasies about his worthless c*nt wife’s friends, sisters, mother, the next door neighbour’s daughter; d) describe in intimate detail every symptom of age-related physical decline in his worthless c*nt wife’s body; e) describe in intimate detail how lousy she is in bed, especially in the one area she can’t blame on him…fellatio.

    Oh, and given the c*nt’s inability to recognize any of her own flaws, provide a laundry list of every f*ck up she’s pulled. Believe me, given that c*nt’s level of moral and intellectual development, she’s pulled some doozies.

    Publish everything online in men’s magazines. Photos of sagging breasts, recordings of harsh, nasal nagging harridanic harangues, and testimonials from her every one of her female “friends” about what a useless f*cking c*nt she is, and how Mr. Man should divorce her forthwith, and marry the friend.

    Then the karmic law will be fulfilled. Justice, sweet justice will come down all over that c*nt’s head like a law of nature. Instant karma’s gonna getcha!

    That article was as despicable an act of marital abuse as anything I’ve seen since an equally repellent exercise by another useless c*nt in Atlantic magazine or the New Yorker about how she never enjoyed sex with her pathetic beta husband. If that slag’s husband didn’t immediately start f*cking around on his c*nt wife, then maybe he deserves the abuse.

    But deserved or not, abuse it is. Even when c*nts are the ones doing it, not pr*cks.

    Oh, and…funny how life-affirming Oprah, with all her spirtual compassionate caring mumbo-jumbo, allows her mag/site to be used for disgraceful acts of public emotional abuse. But then again, it’s c*nts doing it, not pr*cks. So in Oprah’s universe, that’s okay.

    Just not anywhere else. Jesus, you fat worthless c*nt, Oprah…why don’t you float that article by Eckhardt Tolle, see what he thinks?

    Ah, I thought so. Tolle’s a pr*ck, too. You don’t want to know what he thinks.

    Diet yourself to death, Oprah. I don’t want to hear the word “compassion” from your worthless c*nt mouth again.

    Like


  39. 38: Just more proof though, that being a nice guy beta gets you f*ck all from women in today’s sick sexual culture

    The only thing it’s irrefutable proof of is that being a nice guy beta gets you f-all from THAT WOMAN.

    You guys do yourselves — not to mention women — an enormous disservice by viewing women as a monolithic entity instead of individuals. Your incredible negativity towards what you think of as Women poisons your entire worldview and contributes to the perpetuation of the problem. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. How can you find so-called quality women if really, in your heart of hearts, you don’t even believe they exist?

    If you think the women you encounter on any given night are unworthy, then pass them by. Do what you expect your perfect woman to do: respect yourself enough to reserve yourself for only the truly worthy.

    I’ll tell you, I don’t care how great in bed you are, or how successful you are, or how alpha you are — or pretend you are. If you honestly believe these trainwrecks you see showcased on dog-and-pony shows like Oprah are actually representative of womankind in this country, I wouldn’t even bother finishing out a conversation with you, never mind anything more than that, and I’m only a 6!

    Like


  40. Just more proof though, that being a nice guy beta gets you f*ck all from women in today’s sick sexual culture

    If a man changes his native personality to suit the needs of women, then he’s simply a failure as a man, and a shell as a human. I’d rather be content with who I am as a person than to spend the rest of my days faking being someone else in order to chase an orgasm.

    Like


  41. Skimmed comments and saw someone already mentioned that there is such a thing as a bar-whore, so won’t repeat. That’s a different argument from the “no quality girls in bars” argument.

    Bars and nightclubs are like school dances for 18+ people.

    Like


  42. at the bar i’ve met a pharm. sales rep, chemical engineer, 2 nurse practitioners, one veterinarian, one pediatrician…….fuck anyone who says there are no quality girls at bars.

    Like


  43. BTW, I’ll note that like a good scaredy cat/depressed person/social phobe, I have never set foot in a bar.

    Like


  44. [retarded slang phrase]…

    [idiotic joke]…

    Wait what?

    Like


  45. IKEA: You must be confident enough to open mother daughter sets. They are everywhere there.

    Which brings up a really kinky 3-way opportunity …

    Like


  46. 39 quality six:

    You guys do yourselves — not to mention women — an enormous disservice by viewing women as a monolithic entity instead of individuals.

    People are more alike than most would like to believe. It’s called “common humanity.”

    If you think the women you encounter on any given night are unworthy, then pass them by. Do what you expect your perfect woman to do: respect yourself enough to reserve yourself for only the truly worthy.

    Translation: settle for the fatties, single-mothers and the middle-aged.

    @ PatrickH: your post gave me the vapors

    Like


  47. on August 28, 2008 at 3:29 am random passerby

    Kick a Bitch:
    let me be the first to thank you. you don’t want to go to bars, awesome! the less competition i have the better.

    way to cut your dick off to spite your face

    you remove about 80-95 percent of the women from your potential hit-list by not going to bars. congrats… make certain your switch hands at night, wouldn’t want to introduce a curve to that puppy.

    I don’t have a hit list. I’m not competing for anything. I’m not playing the game. I’m not an alpha, nor am I a beta (as if there’s any difference between the two). As far as the system is concerned, I don’t exist.

    oh, and someone that comes out and states they “don’t drink” is doing nothing more than qualifying their alcoholism. way to be a booze-hound… congrats once again

    Because I don’t drink, it means I’m an alcoholic? I’m guessing logical thinking is an ability you never managed to develop. Alcoholism involves drinking alcohol, and since I don’t drink alcohol, and have never drunk alcohol, it’s impossible for me to be an alcoholic. Did I just blow your mind?

    Like


  48. on August 28, 2008 at 3:29 am SovereignAmericanMale

    @38 PatrickH

    b) initiate divorce proceedings a la SAM (I think), who outlined a male-protective divorce strategy a few posts back;

    Source of this post is found at:

    http://roissy.wordpress.com/2008/08/11/i-hate-bachelorette-parties/

    Post number 85 SovereignAmericanMale

    Focus on text after the line that says the following:

    The answer to divorce in the US, is a weekend in Haiti:

    Like


  49. on August 28, 2008 at 3:30 am random passerby

    Well shit. Let’s try that again (why isn’t there a preview function here?)

    Kick a Bitch:
    let me be the first to thank you. you don’t want to go to bars, awesome! the less competition i have the better.

    way to cut your dick off to spite your face

    you remove about 80-95 percent of the women from your potential hit-list by not going to bars. congrats… make certain your switch hands at night, wouldn’t want to introduce a curve to that puppy.

    I don’t have a hit list. I’m not competing for anything. I’m not playing the game. I’m not an alpha, nor am I a beta (as if there’s any difference between the two). As far as the system is concerned, I don’t exist.

    oh, and someone that comes out and states they “don’t drink” is doing nothing more than qualifying their alcoholism. way to be a booze-hound… congrats once again

    Because I don’t drink, it means I’m an alcoholic? I’m guessing logical thinking is an ability you never managed to develop. Alcoholism involves drinking alcohol, and since I don’t drink alcohol, and have never drunk alcohol, it’s impossible for me to be an alcoholic. Did I just blow your mind?

    Like


  50. Smelling salts, Tupac. It’s the only thing for the vapors. Or should I call you Chopra? Man, that creates an incentive to write an entirely different kind of response. If I called you Chopra, your vapors would be, well, real. Tupac, well “vapors” could mean something Scheduled, couldn’t it?

    Challenge, you are named Tupac Chopra.

    Like


  51. I think the operating assumptions many women have: hookup in bars, “friends” in volunteer, professional and church associations make the likelihood of success in bars larger.

    You might find success with Thursday’s method, but IMHO it would take an exceptional player to do so, beyond most men’s abilities. Yes Michael Jordan can make *THAT* shot but he’s Michael Jordan. Most can’t play that game.

    FWIW, in Southern California, my social observations is three-four girls shopping, women with boyfriends (both rude and stupid to approach a girl there), very rarely two women. Everyone is focused on destinations and activities, making social interaction of ANY kind quite hard. In a social organization, like say Habitat for Humanity, you will be “friends” unless you have extraordinary status/physique etc. Joe Average will simply have more women friends who are completely uninterested in sleeping with him, romance, etc.

    As for the Oprah Magazine article, it’s there because it sells. I cite that because that is what sells to women (evidence of attitudes), i.e. sex/love as a consumer object.

    Beyond the belittling of her husband, she wants:

    *Solitude.
    *Sex when she wants it, with a “dreamy” guy.

    This is a consumerist approach to sex and love. Not surprising. And yes men have it too. It’s called porn.

    I honestly despair society-wise of the lack of any real institutions that serve to hook men and women up. I see the collapse of that in total personal mobility and anonymity and don’t see any solution. My own opinion is that if left to their own devices, women will pursue solitude and consumerist sex, men porn, serving no one’s real interest and certainly not society’s.

    Like


  52. You might find success with Thursday’s method, but IMHO it would take an exceptional player to do so, beyond most men’s abilities.

    I am hardly an exceptional player. I am kind of cute, and maybe it’s the city I live in, but this shit ain’t rocket science.

    In fact, I just got back from the mall, where despite being totally out of state it only took me 4 approaches to get an email from a ballet teacher I opened in a music store.

    Like


  53. on August 28, 2008 at 3:58 am random passerby

    Porn is a substitute. Why would someone deliberately pursue it instead of a real person?

    Like


  54. 51 Whiskey:

    I honestly despair society-wise of the lack of any real institutions that serve to hook men and women up. I see the collapse of that in total personal mobility and anonymity and don’t see any solution. My own opinion is that if left to their own devices, women will pursue solitude and consumerist sex, men porn, serving no one’s real interest and certainly not society’s.

    Whiskey, I offer a very sincere and heartfelt tip o’ the hat to you for the hard work and evident wrangling you’ve done in attempting to sort out the Clusterfuck, but I believe you are correct in your pessimism.

    There are no solutions from a conventional point of view.

    The world is in free-fall.

    The results at the end this particular phase, as with all zero-hours, will be both beautiful and grotesque. There will be, of neccessity, many losers in the process as the collective mind jumps to a new order of organization.

    I’m just enjoying the spectacle at this point.

    -keeping my Glock 17 close by at all times…

    Like


  55. “I understand the impulse of the Loser Mafia to want to disparage girls who are confident enough to go to bars and scoop up tons of male attention, but the facts don’t bear out the comforting belief.”

    The least hard-headed post on this blog, evah. This sentence reads like it was cribbed from Amanda Marcotte or Feministe.

    Of course every type of girl goes to bars, but overlap does not equal identity. Even the sentence above betrays this, girls who go to bars are said to be “confident” attention seekers. A-Yup. The distribution of women at bars is skewed toward promiscuity, sensation-seeking, masculinity, vanity, and extroversion. It is more highly oriented towards short-term mating material, not long-term mating material.

    Long-term mating is often procured through grounded social networks (friends, family, work, school, church, etc), not atomized stranger pick-ups, because social networks are governed by reputation credit and social controls. People who seek and accept mates the latter way, are very different than people who seek and accept them the former way.

    You want to maximize your search for a “quality woman”? Networks, not bars.

    Like


  56. My .02

    Executive summary: Waiting for the right woman to come along is about as bottom-of-the-barrel-beta as it comes. It’s a meme to separate the men from the boys.

    First off, whiskey sounds dead on to me ( as usual ). I also lament the lack of institutions to facilitate mating. I actually think that churches should serve this function, but this point of view is usually too A) ‘progressive’ B) falling on deaf ears. Churches are usually too insular and cliquish; and most of the good ones get snapped up by 24ish. Also, this is an unacceptable avenue for a large set of atheists (although not all), hence still a lacking remedy, society wise.

    The ‘friends and family’ approach is *awful*. One primary reason is that you are depending on other people to get what you want. That is a position of powerlessness, and it SUCKS. Whiskey’s point about personal mobility is superb. I have no family for hundreds of miles! Even then, the kind of girl that your mom wants for you is not the kind of girl you want often. As for the ‘through friends’, this happens, but it has never worked for me. I’ve either not been into them or they’re at a weird place in their life. I’ve slept with girls this way, but never met one I would consider seeing in any serious mode. School? I’m not in school. I may one day go back to school, but my current career arc will serve me just fine without grad school. Work? Well, two points here; there is not always a supply of attractive, available women at work. Secondly, and more importantly, one must be careful not to shit where one eats. The only viability I see here are former co-workers.

    In essence: Not only is Roissy right IMO, but the original commenter’s advice is just crap. The passivity of the ‘friends and family’ method is just awful.

    Like


  57. The world is in free-fall.

    True.

    But we do the best we can with what we’ve got.

    When I feel down about the world, I like to start thinking about the wonders of existence itself. I think about how humans are just another species of animal, and how our lives are all such natural accidents.

    In the end, nothing truly matters. Our lives, our struggles, our loves, our labors, our progeny… they will all become dust — or more appropriately, matter and energy.

    This small blue planet currently inhabited by carbon-based life forms, the average-sized yellow star which it orbits, and the galactic system to which the star belongs and other celestial bodies have been — and will be — around for much longer than any of us.

    And then, they, too, will perish. Of course, what we know of reality is probably a miniscule portion of what’s really out there. There could be universes upon universes beyond that. Maybe one day humans will get to even explore lots more of it, or maybe that will be up to whatever replaces homo sapiens to become the next ascendant species. Or maybe not.

    That’s a sober mind trip I go on sometimes.

    Like


  58. on August 28, 2008 at 5:06 am random passerby

    Animus:
    Executive summary: Waiting for the right woman to come along is about as bottom-of-the-barrel-beta as it comes. It’s a meme to separate the men from the boys.

    Only a boy would confuse sexual prowess with manhood.

    I, for one, am simply passively waiting for the right woman to come along, though I don’t think for a moment that it will ever happen. I have my reasons, but they have nothing to do with the illusory alpha-beta distinction that alphas have set up to feel better about themselves.

    Like


  59. Animus, actually I was telling you where most “quality women” are choosing mates: in rooted social networks that protect them from roving, atomized sociopaths. Women that unwisely choose the bar route for long-term relationships are quickly lied to and exploited and fall back into the safety of networks.

    To a certain extent then, yes, it is difficult to find a quality woman, but many men with stable, rooted lives still do it at a young age, by being rooted. They control their mating outcomes indirectly by building their own marriageable prospects and reputation and integrating themselves into a larger fabric of community. Meanwhile atomized PUAs pushing 40 who meet an order of magnitude more women at bars, on the Internet, and through other anonymous venues still complain about the dearth of “quality women”. The subtext is that they would be settled down if they could be. In other words, I seriously doubt PUAs have any advantages in finding good long-term mates. The opposite really is likely more true. Their perpetual short-term mating is an externally imposed limitation after a number of life choices.

    This is exactly analogous to spinsters like Maureen Dowd, who mask their own poor “progressive” choices by recommending their anti-traditional, homosexual-mimicking, lonely, promiscuous lifestyle to others. PUAs constantly warn against the harms and degradations of marriage, when social science is clear that marriage is a net benefit to men. Married men are much happier and they are healthier and live longer. PUAs become tragic, disgruntled male spinsters, no different than this woman:

    http://roissy.wordpress.com/2008/05/20/overheard-in-dc/

    So to paraphrase something Peter said here a long time ago, the best route for most men is to play by the rules, and do all the things your grandma told you to do. Some sub-set of PUAs may win big in the life sweepstakes, sure. But a successful PUA telling other guys to follow suit, is like Dr. Dre telling young black guys to not be suckers and get boring jobs, but to make millions by rapping.

    Almost everyone will do better by not playing the lottery with their life this way.

    Like


  60. This is a consumerist approach to sex and love. Not surprising. And yes men have it too. It’s called porn.

    What’s wrong with that? Why should we live within the current boundaries when we can maximize our happiness and sexual desires? Why should we limit ourselves to partners who remind us of our failings and inferiority?

    Like


  61. random passerby:

    Only someone lacking reading comprehension would confuse me equating sexual prowess to manhood. Waiting for what you want to fall into your lap, be it the woman of your dreams (which is not even sexual prowess?), the job you’ve always wanted, the trip, the LIFE you’ve always wanted is the opposite of manhood. Part of being a man is taking responsibility for your own life.

    Like


  62. many men with stable, rooted lives still do it at a young age, by being rooted. They control their mating outcomes indirectly by building their own marriageable prospects and reputation and integrating themselves into a larger fabric of community.

    I tried this route. It will work in the sense that it will get you a 6. But without a certain amount of game, whether natural or learned, you won’t be able to attract and keep a really beautiful women.

    Like


  63. Oops, I see now Animus was responding to LauraByNight’s quote in the post, not my own, directly above his, which contained similar wording.

    It was mostly just an excuse to rant on the subject anyway.

    Like


  64. Rain And:

    Do you live in a fantasy world? Rooted? Are you kidding me? There is no rooted anymore. Maybe you haven’t picked up a newspaper lately, but ‘middletown America’? Yea, it’s *dying*. If you’re from there, keeping roots there is stupid. The world is not rooted anymore, unless you like living in a small town.

    And maybe you didn’t read what I actually wrote, because I see no refutation of the points I made. The reality is that these ‘networks’ are dead ends.

    “In other words, I seriously doubt PUAs have any advantages in finding good long-term mates.”

    How many ‘PUAs’ have you known? Really, don’t bother replying if you can’t answer this. And I don’t mean how many times you watched Mystery’s show. I mean, how many ‘pick up community’ people have you met and interacted with over a period of time? Most of them are A) Not pushing 40 B) interested in a girlfriend. C) Lots of them eventually ‘move on’ into long-term relationships. I know a few of them. Shit; I’m one of them.

    Like


  65. on August 28, 2008 at 7:22 am random passerby

    Animus:
    Only someone lacking reading comprehension would confuse me equating sexual prowess to manhood.

    Really?

    Waiting for what you want to fall into your lap, be it the woman of your dreams (which is not even sexual prowess?), the job you’ve always wanted, the trip, the LIFE you’ve always wanted is the opposite of manhood. Part of being a man is taking responsibility for your own life.

    This is a slippery slope argument. Just because I’m passively waiting for one thing to happen (for very good reasons) doesn’t mean I’ll be passively waiting for everything to happen.

    Chasing after women has nothing to do with being a man. Being a PUA doesn’t make you a man.

    Like


  66. But without a certain amount of game, whether natural or learned, you won’t be able to attract and keep a really beautiful women.

    Most people pair bond long term with others of similar mate quality; with stable provider men trading this asset in for a more attractive female than themselves (so if the best you could do here was a 6, this suggests you are either probably about a 5, or low SES). Men can increase their long-term mate value in a number of worthwhile ways. Some of the best ways are through strivings such as education, earnings, exercise, hygiene. A lot of this is genetically determined. And there really is no evidence that men in a control condition where they “learn game” are given anything like these advantages. The opportunity cost is questionable. Men who spend time honing “game” by sleep with bar women to increase their “self-confidence”, would probably find a higher quality long term mate (and sooner in life) by building their social skills in more socially acceptable ways, or by spending more time learning valuable marketable skills.

    Recall that roissy’s natural enemy in the wild is “the Herb”, the chinless beta with a sexy “quality woman” for a long term partner.

    http://roissy.wordpress.com/2008/03/31/cat-on-a-leash/

    In the roissy mythos, of course this woman will eventually cheat on her fugly engineer companion with a roving sex fiend like himself, only to take half his dough and leave him broken and alone.

    Of course this is all a lie. Marriage makes men far better off. Men get good marriages with compatible partners by playing by the rules like good betas. And these men have the happiest and healthiest lives of all men:

    “By contrast, the pattern behind the guys’ life-happiness rankings stood out clear as day. Namely: Now that we’re in our early 50s, the calmest and least-troubled guys are the ones who are working in technical fields. Without exception, these old classmates are now mellow and happy souls. They have the contentedness of people leading comprehensible, satisfying lives, lives characterized by finite obligations and dependable rewards. ”

    http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2007/09/reunions_2_guyh_1.html

    Like


  67. on August 28, 2008 at 7:31 am Comment_Lie_And_Weave

    *******
    I’m a decent looking man and I’ve never gone to a bar. Why? Because it’s not my thing, and because I don’t drink. It stands to reason that there are also women who just don’t care for it.

    Personally, I’m not interested in anyone who visits bars.
    ********
    Liar’s Trick 412:
    Pretend to agree, then go back to saying what you said already.

    Make the distinction between go to bar/not go to bar a “personal choice” non-judgemental thing:
    “It stands to reason that there are also women who just don’t care for it.”
    then judge women for it:
    “Personally, I’m not interested in anyone who visits bars.”

    I’d like to say that these kinds of games aren’t some peoples thing. And, personally, I’m not interested in anyone who plays them.

    Like


  68. “But without a certain amount of game, whether natural or learned, you won’t be able to attract and keep a really beautiful women.”

    Most people pair bond long term with others of similar mate quality; with stable provider men trading this asset in for a more attractive female than themselves (so if the best you could do here was a 6, this suggests you are either probably about a 5, or low SES). Men can increase their long-term mate value in a number of worthwhile ways. Some of the best ways are through strivings such as education, earnings, exercise, hygiene. A lot of this is genetically determined. And there really is no evidence that men in a control condition where they “learn game” are given anything like these advantages. The opportunity cost is questionable. Men who spend time honing “game” by sleep with bar women to increase their “self-confidence”, would probably find a higher quality long term mate (and sooner in life) by building their social skills in more socially acceptable ways, or by spending more time learning valuable marketable skills.

    Recall that roissy’s natural enemy in the wild is “the Herb”, the chinless beta with a sexy “quality woman” for a long term partner.

    In the roissy mythos, of course this woman will eventually cheat on her fugly engineer companion with a roving sex-fiend like himself, only to take half his dough and leave him broken and alone.

    Of course this is all a lie. Marriage makes men far better off. Men get good marriages with compatible partners by playing by the rules like good betas. And these men have the happiest and healthiest lives of all men:

    “By contrast, the pattern behind the guys’ life-happiness rankings stood out clear as day. Namely: Now that we’re in our early 50s, the calmest and least-troubled guys are the ones who are working in technical fields. Without exception, these old classmates are now mellow and happy souls. They have the contentedness of people leading comprehensible, satisfying lives, lives characterized by finite obligations and dependable rewards. ”

    http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2007/09/reunions_2_guyh_1.html

    Like


  69. on August 28, 2008 at 8:02 am random passerby

    Comment_Lie_And_Weave:
    Liar’s Trick 412:
    Pretend to agree, then go back to saying what you said already.

    Make the distinction between go to bar/not go to bar a “personal choice” non-judgemental thing:
    “It stands to reason that there are also women who just don’t care for it.”
    then judge women for it:
    “Personally, I’m not interested in anyone who visits bars.”

    I’d like to say that these kinds of games aren’t some peoples thing. And, personally, I’m not interested in anyone who plays them.
    What the fuck are you talking about? I’m not lying or playing any games. You’re manufacturing controversy. Recognizing that going to a bar is a personal choice is not mutually exclusive with not being interested in people who go to bars. Get a clue.

    Like


  70. How many ‘PUAs’ have you known? Really, don’t bother replying if you can’t answer this.

    Well we don’t have a scientific survey of this modern fad do we? What I can tell you is that old bachelors with multiple sex partners look like shit in the social science literature, while long-married “betas” with few sex partners and rooted community ties (e.g. frequent church attendance) look pretty fucking good.

    Do you live in a fantasy world? Rooted? Are you kidding me? There is no rooted anymore.

    Animus do YOU live in a fantasy world? And by that I mean LA… har har?

    Men don’t have to stay in a small town to be “rooted”. You are rooted to the extent that you choose to operate your life within a mutually accountable community of others. This is largely up to you, even in a big city. I gave examples like church, friends, neighborhood, work, and school.

    “And maybe you didn’t read what I actually wrote, because I see no refutation of the points I made. The reality is that these ‘networks’ are dead ends.”

    Well you just gave a bunch of personal anecdotes. Am I supposed to “refute” your life events! Anyway it’s not hard to refute you, just look at the surveys.

    36% of Canadian women say they met their spouse through friends. 20% on the job.

    http://www.goanvoice.ca/2006/issue03/Health_Wellness.htm

    Bars typically make up less than 10% of long-terms, which is amazing considering that’s where 25% of short-terms happen.

    Schools are another 10-20%.

    Church is usually about 10-15%. Which admittedly, actually isn’t that different than bars. It would be nice to see how different rates of divorce are by spousal meeting place.

    So “dead-end” networks produce something like half to three-quarters of all long-term relationships.

    Like


  71. 46: Translation: settle for the fatties, single-mothers and the middle-aged.

    Not at all. But don’t make it your purpose in life to go around nailing as many women as you can and then complain about how all you ever encounter are amoral slatterns.

    Like


  72. Addendum: Although, come to think of it, Tupac Chopra, you could do a lot worse than a 29-year-old or Size 14 who’ll treat you like a king, never cheat, never steal your massive accumulated wealth, and support & stick by you through hard times. You know, all that “quality” stuff Roissy was talking about. You could do a lot worse, and probably will. Select strictly for the superficial and live with your choices — quality women everywhere are happy to see the herd thin itself.

    Like


  73. Hello “Rain and” I’m sorry if your going to refer to a survey please read it properly! as Spouse is not the same as “met their current or last significant other” which this report states not spouse slight difference.

    Also if you read the whole report it’s a proper rubbish telephone pole, must admit the line “I’m not normally this tall I’m sat on my wallet” great line think it’s says its from Japan made me laugh.

    Like


  74. If the bar crowd was representative of ‘girls you meet anywhere else’ then half of their IQs are below 100. You assert that 90% are above. I question your judgment.

    Like


  75. Ah lads come on now.

    Day game is more difficult than night, so many variables. I’ve overcome approach anxiety Thursday, and don’t fear approaching in the day. It’s just a matter of efficient time management. The odds are better in a bar.

    Like


  76. “…as Spouse is not the same as “met their current or last significant other” which this report states not spouse slight difference.”

    Sorry, I was running off previous information which suggested there was little difference. But yeah, should have been stated. I actually wanted to provide more links to go along with my numbers, but if I add more than one the post gets eaten by the spam filter.

    Here’s another survey, the Pew Internet and American Life Project, of married couples and long-term relationships. Where they met:

    38% at school or work
    34% through family and friends
    13% nightclub, cafe, or other social gatherings
    3% Internet
    2% church
    1% chance (like on street)
    1% neighborhood scene
    1% gym
    1% dating service

    Like


  77. on August 28, 2008 at 1:52 pm Usually Lurking

    PUAs constantly warn against the harms and degradations of marriage, when social science is clear that marriage is a net benefit to men. Married men are much happier and they are healthier and live longer.

    Rain And, I thought that you were killing it with the exception of that quoted bit.

    That statistic is rather biased. That stat is based on measuring the health, happiness and lifespan of men who have never been divorced, not of married men. Those sets are not the same thing.

    When you factor in all men that have gotten married the numbers do not look so positive, IIRC.

    Something like 50% of marriages end in divorces, the majority of which are initiated by women and the resulting divorced husbands are much more likely to die of things like heart-disease and suicide.

    I am, personally, not completely against marriage, but it’s supposed positive effects are still up in the air, especially in light of current attitudes towards Alimony and Child Custody Laws.

    Like


  78. Rain And failed again:

    “How many ‘PUAs’ have you known? Really, don’t bother replying if you can’t answer this.”

    Well we don’t have a scientific survey of this modern fad do we? What I can tell you is that old bachelors with multiple sex partners look like shit in the social science literature, while long-married “betas” with few sex partners and rooted community ties (e.g. frequent church attendance) look pretty fucking good.

    I’m not asking you for a scientific survey of PUAs, I’m asking you how many you have known. By your non-answer, I’m guessing zero. Let me spell it out for you, since you don’t know: most of them are not ‘old’ bachelors.

    And while I’m at it, let me dispel another one. They don’t operate exclusively in bars.

    As for your survey? It’s crap, because there’s no age element to it. There are things that made more sense a generation or two ago that don’t now, which is the whole point here. Also, it’s an internet survey…

    And I didn’t ask you to refute my ‘life events’, just my reasoning. Church! School! Lots of people don’t freakin’ go to those. Work! There’s sometimes rules against this. Breakups make nasty office drama. Family! In this day and age, very few young people live where their family does. The divorce rate exacerbates this.

    Point is, Rain And, these ‘networks’ by and large don’t apply, don’t work for a lot of people, and then you in any way chastise them as being silly for looking elsewhere? What would you have them do? Suffer with their low chance? “Well, you have a drastically small chance of getting a great woman since you can’t work all these traditional angles! So just suck it up and hope against hope it works out!”

    Like


  79. Oh, and parting snipe:
    Animus do YOU live in a fantasy world? And by that I mean LA… har har?

    No, I don’t live in LA. But it is the second largest city in the U.S., so writing it off as this batshit crazy place is ultimately a cop out.

    Like


  80. so if the best you could do here was a 6, this suggests you are either probably about a 5, or low SES

    Neither, I was just an incredibly shy, sensitive teenager who never learned how to deal with girls. My initial lack of success kept building on itself.

    As I think I have said before I am a fairly good looking guy with a lot of success in other areas of my life, which is why I seemed to attract so many 6s. I just didn’t know how to deal with more attractive women.

    Like


  81. brandy tested for chinks in my ardor:
    Several commenters pointed out that you are less likely to find girls who posses these characteristics in bars. Now in your email defending the quality of girls that you meet at bars, the attributes you chose to focus on to refute their claims are:

    * Occupation
    * education levels
    * IQ
    * dress style

    Why don’t you tell us about how the girls you meet at bars measure up to the attributes from your post on quality girls? Why are you focusing on these other qualities?

    i used a definition of quality in this post that the believers in the “bars suck” meme use themselves to argue against finding a girl of quality in a bar. i have turned the crux of their argument against them.

    naturally, as i have written numerous times, a girl’s educational background and occupation hold very little importance for attracting men. it’s looks first, second, third… and the rest fourth. and as i have noted, having the status of multiple degrees or a high-paying job will actually be counterproductive in attracting a suitable man. but the loser contingent and harpy has-beens who wish to salve their egos cling dearly to the pretty lie that girls of quality (i.e. the ones the losers can’t get and the ones the harpies can’t compete with) are not found in bars, and their reasoning rests squarely on the unspoken assumption that bars are filled with dumb, shallow, low class, unaccomplished sluts. i have called them out on their hate and laid to rest their cherished shibboleth by impaling them on their own sword.

    i have not observed that the true feminine qualities that attract men — the ones i mentioned in my previous post — are any less evident in the women i meet in a bar than anywhere else. there might be a slightly higher ratio of sluts to saints, but that small difference is swamped by the efficiency of target acquisition available at the frontlines of a bar.

    ***

    thursday challenged my eminence:
    This is your first post that is complete bullshit.

    it’s all part of the plan.

    Yes, yes, yes, skanky hos are everywhere, even at church, while nice girls occasionally go out for a drink or to do some dancing. The thing is that these this is all probabalistic. The question is where are you _more likely_ to meet a quality girl?

    the slightly higher probability of meeting a quality girl outside a bar must be weighed against the efficiency of meeting one inside a bar, given time and space constraints. i could score 3 #s in one hour in a bar that would take me all day hitting on chicks during the daytime because 1) the atmosphere is more conducive for high octane flirting in a bar and 2) there are a lot more single girls packed in a much smaller area.

    Quality girls tend to go to bars less significantly less often, sometimes not at all.

    and i’m saying this is false. sure, you’ll find a higher percentage of whores in a bar than you would find at urban outfitters shopping for flip flops, but not much higher. as agnostic and whiskey mentioned above, the bar has replaced the traditional social venues for bringing the sexes together for courtship. this is especially true in the atomized urban ocean and in a social climate of trumped up sexual harassment charges that makes meeting at work a rather precarious proposition.
    especially for a matrix renegade like myself. heh.

    The girl at Whole Foods is significantly more likely to be a quality girl than the one at the bar.

    significantly? maybe in kansas. in DC, like in most big cities where anything that matters happens, the whole foods girl and the bar girl are one and the same.

    I repeat bars tend to self-select for sluttiness and attention whoring.

    multi-floor clubs self-select for sluts more than do bars. bars are filled mostly with normal women. and by normal, i mean 95% share the same innately craven desire for attention whoring and shrivel without it. all girls want to know they look hot to guys, and a bar is simply a convenient place for them to indulge that suppressed desire to the limits of social acceptability without running the risk of being smeared a slut.

    All girls like attention, but some girls actually care about the quality of the attention they get.

    sure, but this is as true in a bar as it is anywhere. in fact, moreso, if you think about it.

    Also, if you are a quality girl, chances are you want a quality guy, and you are significantly less likely to find one at the bar, ergo you tend not to go to bars to meet guys.

    so certain r u?
    a quality guy knows he has options. where do you think his first choice will be to exercise his options?

    The ones with less need for attention will go out to bars less. Again pretty elementary.

    it’s often the shy girls who retire from daytime social interaction who “break loose” at night and hit the bars with their gregarious friends.
    anyhow, the percentage of attractive women who need little attention, in my observation, is less than 5%. so you’re arguing on behalf of a phantom.

    Like


  82. god lads we all need this wake-up call.

    the stuff i’ve seen supposedly ‘quality girls’ doing, frickin ridiculous. the “quality girls in the day” meme is just Pedestalisation Revisited.

    what, you think that cute and artsy record store girl isn’t out all night going then leaving with some player? please.

    I’m not even sure the (disputable) fact that you find a higher % of “whores” in a bar is a bad thing – you get a whole buffet to choose from. Also – the mere presence of “sluts” will automatically lower the value of “quality” girls for the evening (competition drives down prices), making them more amenable to an approach.

    Like


  83. The argument for day game shouldn’t be framed ” quality girls versus bar tramps”, because the benefits of day game lie more in other areas – midweek, girls are often alone, their egos are lower – little makeup, normal clothes, not surrounded by slobbering males etc, and they find it more romantic, and many PUA’s say a number close is generally more solid. But again, it’s a lot of frickin work. I think the best frame is the efficiency frame.

    Paul Janka, who mainly runs day game, does nothing but wander around new york meeting women. His pickup ratio is unbelievably bad and inefficient given his looks and work rate. On Pickup Podcast recently he talked of the need for energy bars and assorted vitamins, large water bottles, maybe you need some durable shoes – I half expected a tent and sleeping bag next, day game as mountain hike.

    Also, because I’m forced to spend a lot of time wandering around malls and other fortresses of capitalism, I tend to buy a pile of stuff I don’t need. For me, bars would probably be cheaper.

    Like


  84. Probably a good deal of our disagreement has to do with the following:

    1. I have higher standards than you re: moral character
    2. We live in different cities.

    I have only briefly visited D.C., but I can believe that it might be a particularly nasty snake pit for meeting women.

    The city I’m in seems just packed with attractive girls everywhere, so maybe that is different too. But I still find it hard to believe that on a wander through, say, a university campus you couldn’t approach as many women as in a bar.

    a quality guy knows he has options. where do you think his first choice will be to exercise his options?

    For a quality girls, a quality guy will usually be one who is willing to commit, not a player. At a bar she is more likely to meet a guy like you: attractive, but not quality in that sense. 😉

    Like


  85. Roissy:

    i used a definition of quality in this post that the believers in the “bars suck” meme use themselves to argue against finding a girl of quality in a bar

    Not me. And not LauraByNight either. She specifically mentioned “high powered” women. I would interpret that to mean lawyers and such, who certainly are educated, high IQ women. There are lots of bars that cater to these kinds of women in my city too. The quality of these women for long term relationships however is in question.

    Sebastian Flyte:

    the “quality girls in the day” meme is just Pedestalisation Revisited.

    No, I just know that good women exist, and that they tend to go to bars a lot less.

    Also, I’m not naive, day game isn’t a substitute for screening.

    BTW even Jeffy (jlaix) from RSD has said that the quality of women he has met has gone way up since he started doing more day game.

    what, you think that cute and artsy record store girl isn’t out all night going then leaving with some player?

    Maybe she is, but then again maybe she isn’t. Again, is there a higher or lower probablility of sluttiness etc. meeting in a bar or elsewhere?

    Listen, the last two women I have gone out with were a librarian who hasn’t been to a bar in about 3 months and a new prof who has only gone out once in the two months she has been in town. You know why? Cause they do lots of other interesting shit like sailing, hiking, reading, putting on plays, hanging out with friends elsewhere etc. They don’t avoid bars, but they don’t have much time for them either.

    I half expected a tent and sleeping bag next, day game as mountain hike.

    It only takes an hour or so a night. About what you’d have to put in at a bar. Open 3-5 sets. Get a number or email that will rarely flake. That’s it.

    Like


  86. The best place to find a quality guy/girl is college, but now that no one wants to get married at 21, this option has been closed off. A shame, really.

    Like


  87. So an average time of maybe 12 minutes in set? And those numbers are solid? surely that’s not enough time to build comfort… hmmmm… your opener seemed a bit direct, i dunno where i’d go after that.

    Like


  88. So an average time of maybe 12 minutes in set? And those numbers are solid?

    I tend to get about one number each time I go out. Some sets end fairly quickly. Of course, the girls who like you are in set for longer. BTW if you have a real job, 3 solid numbers a week is more than enough. Remember you’re actually going to have to find time to go out with these girls too.

    your opener seemed a bit direct, i dunno where i’d go after that.

    It shows purpose. I wanted to meet you and I did. Girls like that. But I do have a couple great follow up stories.

    Like


  89. to all those asking me about the best bars in DC for pickup: i haven’t decided yet whether i want to reveal that valuable information. maybe after i find my alabaster girl who can convince the mighty roissy to leave the field for good.

    thurs:
    For quality girls, a quality guy will usually be one who is willing to commit, not a player.

    no, for any girl a quality guy is an alpha. the willingness of that alpha to commit plays no role in sparking her attraction, though it should be said that the alpha traits women find desirable usually come pre-installed with specifications to stray.

    It shows purpose. I wanted to meet you and I did.

    thursday, you’re a lance mason acolyte, correct?

    Like


  90. Roissy, as usual, sets up a false dichotomy where we have to choose between a girl who has ever set foot in a bar in her life and a fat nerdette who never leaves her room.

    Yeah I get it, all women have been to a bar at some point but on your average visit who are more likely to meet: the girl who goes once a month with her girlfriends or the girl who goes out 3 times a week?

    Qualifying your point with the your anecdotal experience with professional women go to bars isn’t something I’d expect from Roissy. I don’t think educated women are immune from being whores.

    Like


  91. on August 28, 2008 at 11:41 pm writeandcreate

    This ‘quality girl/woman’ works in a bar. It is a bar in the country in NSW Australia. Many years ago I worked in bars in Sydney, so I think I have a bit of expertise in what you are talking about.

    As a youngin’ working in bars, I hated it. I did it to support another career move at the time that wasn’t making much money.

    Men ogled, and undressed the bar girls from across the bar, as if they were paying to do so, not just paying for their drinks.

    Most of the girls I worked with were university students, the odd one was a bit lost, and gullable.

    I never went home with a patron. I did fall in love with a musician working at one of the bars I worked in, and had a relationship with him until he diedsome years later after a car accident.

    Nowadays, another lifetime away, I have entered the hospitality industry again to survive while studying and parenting.

    I guess being a country bar makes things a little different. The other bar girlthere , is another bright youngish single mother. The patrons here treat us with the greatest respect. They love this pub, and come from all over Ausralia for a visit. The local patrons, our regulars have beccome friends.

    I have noticed however on a Friday night for instance when every body is out in their droves partying, that the men, get drunk, ‘mouth off’ and hands tend to wander a little, and it is often the bar girls to keep the lads in line. The female patrons however tend to get louder and louder, after not too many drinks and may I say, really should go home. They are much nicer when sober.

    However they, like their male counterpart are out for a good time. Be it at a party, a bar, where there is booze, there is generelly this sort of behaviour.

    Like


  92. Thursday and Roissy, your disagreements are the result of the different cities in which you live, and their different social lives. Young women in DC are not all that likely to have cars; they are probably originally from out of town; and they usually have to work long hours. Meaning that they don’t have mobility, a social network, or time. Meaning that they have to go to bars to socialize or meet friends, whatever their personalities or moral preferences.

    Women in Calgary or Edmonton (I’m not sure which of these Thursday lives in or lives closer to) are less likely to be newly-arrived – though I’m not certain about Calgary these days; are almost certain to have cars because public transit in both cities is inconvenient and anyway everyone drives in western Canada (the cold, you know); they have a social network; and they are more likely have the kind of jobs that let them go to the mountains to ski, camp, etc. So the quality girls are less likely to be found in bars, which are often populated by bar skanks – if what I remember of places like the King Eddy in Banff are any indication. (I went with male relatives to protect me.) People there socialize at house parties more than in bars, or so it seemed to me – but I haven’t visited much there in recent years and my info could be out of date.

    Clio

    Like


  93. 89 roissy,

    no, for any girl a quality guy is an alpha.

    I object and to the straying part too. Forget it! Straying only allows a person to go half way into a relationship unless both are doing it or the woman completely approves and is aware of it, then it is not “straying” it is an agreement.

    Like


  94. Roissy –

    I recently found your blog. You are spot on, even a bit too cynical than is absolutely warranted.

    I feel lied to.

    I was raised to be a “good” man and have lived as one. I did my duty, treated people with respect, showed kindness, stood up when wrong was being done in front of me, tried my best to walk in another person’s shoes in order to prevent unnecessary misunderstanding, went to work every day, treated women with respect, obeyed the laws, did my best.

    You know, a moron.

    I wised up around age 35. Late, but better late than never.

    People comment all the time about the change. I could write a book.

    But the difference is this: people, men and women, now treat me with respect. Women, animals that they are, now find me someone they want to be close to.

    The rage I feel at being lied to my feminized well meaning liberal idiots my entire childhood and extended adolescense is deep and fierce.

    Sucker, no more.

    Like


  95. 94 Jourdan:

    The rage I feel at being lied to my feminized well meaning liberal idiots my entire childhood and extended adolescense is deep and fierce.

    Awwww…I’m sure Sara will be right along to soothe the fetus that refused to be abort…..

    But remember, dear Jourdan, every silver lining has a dark cloud!!!

    Hee hee hee!!!!

    Like


  96. You know, a moron.

    In other words, you were willing to trade your self-respect and dignity for women.

    I would prefer to be lonely than to sell out and become a douchebag to attract women.

    Like


  97. 96 some puling whiner:

    I would prefer to be lonely than to sell out and become a douchebag…

    Douchebag. Hmmmm.

    You know, to a child, a kitten is cute and cuddly. To a mouse, it’s a beast.

    What IS the kitten, “really”?

    Hmmmmm…..

    Like


  98. on August 29, 2008 at 3:42 am random passerby

    ^ Exactly right. I was going to say something like that.

    Astra:
    The best place to find a quality guy/girl is college, but now that no one wants to get married at 21, this option has been closed off. A shame, really.

    Whenever I listen to people talk about college, I get the impression that most women there amoral sluts with substance abuse problems.

    Like


  99. on August 29, 2008 at 3:44 am random passerby

    The “exactly right” was aimed at Alexander. Only an idiot sells his soul just so he can get laid.

    Like


  100. on August 29, 2008 at 4:03 am InterestedParty

    David Alexander says:

    “If a man changes his native personality to suit the needs of women, then he’s simply a failure as a man, and a shell as a human…”

    Wait, are you saying you’re not a failure as a man or a shell of a human?

    On the one hand, I agree with you – don’t go out changing yourself *just* to impress women. Self improvement is the focus (i.e. so-called “inner game”). I think this spreads into all parts of your life, not just your sexual life (though of course that’s a huge bonus).

    Really, PUAs are another form of self-improvement coach in my book. Nothing wrong with not settling for your “native personality”(good one!) and making a better life for yourself and/or others.

    Like


  101. 99 random passerby

    Only an idiot sells his soul just so he can get laid.

    Just the other day I was with my mates, cursin’ and spittin’, tellin’ bawdy tales about the bitches when little old Ms. Grzlickson happened upon us to thank Tupac for the fine job he did DJing at the church social. I cleared my throat and straightened my tie and yes-mam’ed my way through the conversation.

    I think my soul garnered about 120 bucks that day.

    Don’t ask what I make when I visit my parents.

    How much do your parents REALLY know about YOU???

    Like


  102. 94 Jourdan

    The rage itself is an obstacle. Inner game is clarity with the absence of attached emotion.

    Like


  103. on August 29, 2008 at 4:31 am random passerby

    Tupac, if you’re going to reply then at least say something that makes sense.

    Like


  104. Tupac, if you’re going to reply then at least say something that makes sense.

    Okay.

    “Random passerby lacks the capacity to comprehend an analogical reductio ad absurdum”

    Like


  105. on August 29, 2008 at 4:44 am random passerby

    If you have nothing useful or sensible to say then just fuck off and stop posting.

    Like


  106. on August 29, 2008 at 5:11 am Comment_How_Typically_American

    ******
    What the fuck are you talking about? I’m not lying or playing any games. You’re manufacturing controversy. Recognizing that going to a bar is a personal choice is not mutually exclusive with not being interested in people who go to bars. Get a clue.
    ******
    You said:
    “Personally, I’m not interested in anyone who visits bars.”

    A personal “choice” for which they shall be judged most harshly, to the point that you won’t even date them.

    I used to be confused about how American’s jabbered about “choice” all the time, while being extremely intolerant. But when you say “choice” you mean “threat”. They “can” do something, presumably meaning you won’t shoot them, but you will judge them oh yes you will. Each and every issue, down the list. One back check, and they BAD. But really, go back and tell me how
    “Personally, I’m not interested in anyone who visits bars.”

    Isn’t a super-judgemental trash-talk statement. Cause I’m having a little trouble with that “ANYONE” word.

    Really, how exactly ARE you being tolerant? Cause I’d really like to know what “choice” means to you but some noise to throw out before the condemenation.

    Like


  107. on August 29, 2008 at 5:24 am random passerby

    Comment_How_Typically_American:
    A personal “choice” for which they shall be judged most harshly, to the point that you won’t even date them.

    Lots of things in life are personal choices, but that doesn’t mean other people won’t judge you for them or that those choices won’t affect how other people deal with you.

    used to be confused about how American’s jabbered about “choice” all the time, while being extremely intolerant. But when you say “choice” you mean “threat”. They “can” do something, presumably meaning you won’t shoot them, but you will judge them oh yes you will. Each and every issue, down the list. One back check, and they BAD. But really, go back and tell me how
    “Personally, I’m not interested in anyone who visits bars.”

    I’m not American, and even if I was I still wouldn’t understand what you’re talking about. Maybe you should be on some kind of medication.

    Really, how exactly ARE you being tolerant? Cause I’d really like to know what “choice” means to you but some noise to throw out before the condemenation.
    I never said I’m tolerant, and the word doesn’t mean you think it means. This isn’t even about tolerance, this is about preference.

    Like


  108. 95 Tupac

    Awwww…I’m sure Sara will be right along to soothe the fetus that refused to be abort….

    Please explain. I’m not half as bright as the rest of y’all.

    97 Tupac

    You know, to a child, a kitten is cute and cuddly. To a mouse, it’s a beast.

    I have heard men are not like dogs as some purport, but more like birds, and women are like cats. Hence, men do not want to be caged or eaten, scare easily and take off for no reason. Cats are sensitive, independent and will follow you anywhere as long as you pet it right, feed it right, and don’t abuse it.

    David Alexander says:

    “If a man changes his native personality to suit the needs of women, then he’s simply a failure as a man, and a shell as a human…”

    No one should change unless changing becomes them. Change is the only constant. Question is; what do you change into or do you just change back into what you were? Also changing to fit someone’s needs is a negative, wants are another story. If it feels good to change; change.

    Like


  109. on August 29, 2008 at 10:13 am Steve Johnson

    David Alexander-

    “I would prefer to be lonely than to sell out and become a douchebag to attract women.”

    Congratulations, you manage to be both lonely and a douchebag.

    Like


  110. The positive side of meeting someone in a bar is that a woman who is a lady while bar hopping is a lady everywhere.

    A woman who is a lady at church or at a family function may well be one to drink to excess, dress like a whore or grind with guys when not under the supervision of priests and parents.

    Same thing with a man. You know right away if he is a drunk, chases anything in a skirt or picks fights.
    A man who shows restraint when out drinking and who is a gentleman even after a few drinks usually has a habit of good behaviour.

    Because most people will act like a good guy/girl at church and most people will unleach their inner bad boy/girl in the club, it will look like church is 90% good people and the club is 80% slores and winos.

    In reality, there were 20% of clubbers being people of restraint and good character, maybe 10% true baddies, another 20% people just lack a bit of restraint when drunk and 50% are two faced “Banker by day, Bacardi by night.”

    Those people are making up half of the so called good people at church. 10% look like baddies even in church, they may have a prison record, don’t own modest attire or their beard smells like gin. Let’s make another 10% baddies, but these are smart ones who know how to cover it up very well. That leaves 30% true good people at church.

    That means there are a few more good girls and guys at church, so if you pick a random one, chances are just a it higher that you got a good one. Plus, because you are seen as a goody, chances are the best foot is put forward.

    However…
    Only one in three people who appear to be good at church actually are. On the other hand, most people who go home from a night of clubbing without showing their bad side are good people consistently.

    It takes a wee bit of backbone to come to the club wearing something not that revealing, to say no to offers of another Mojito and opt for a soda and not to go home with any of the players that hit on you. Because a good woman is able to go home alone even if she is very attracted because she simply is not open to a roll in the hay.

    Anyway, a woman who dresses like a woman in daily life, never has a shortage of wolf whistles and compliments from men. There is no need to go to the club to get validation, men keep their eyes open whereever they are. Or perhaps the large amount of construction work in my area skews my opinion. 😉

    Like


  111. on August 30, 2008 at 11:35 pm Comment_So_Your_English

    *****
    I’m not American, and even if I was I still wouldn’t understand what you’re talking about. Maybe you should be on some kind of medication.
    *****
    I think that pretty much establishes the commenters level of savage visciousness. So now I’m crazy for disagreeing with him. And if a woman goes to a bar, “he isn’t interested in ANYONE who goes to bars”.

    People like the commenter need a “base” of “choice” and “just preferences” jabber to fall back on when their screaming threats go against them.

    If someone calls them out on being thugs, then can then focus on the “choice” crap of their conversation, jabbering about how they said this, and they said that. It’s all noise. You could delete every “choice” statement, every “personal preference” statement, from his comments, and you’d get the real him. And the real him is a viscious little thug.

    ****
    Lots of things in life are personal choices, but that doesn’t mean other people won’t judge you for them or that those choices won’t affect how other people deal with you.
    ****
    You gots choices, and if you makes the wrongs ones, you gonna pay.

    Like


  112. I’m calling bullshit on Roissy.

    > And once you do, the approach is still way more difficult than in a bar

    Come on man! What do you think is easier approaching a group and having to do group tactics, with loud music, or doing hard direct in the day. It is EASIER logistically and HARDER on you psychologically (if thats what you meant). Read Gunwitch/Sean Messenger/Janka

    This is all in your head. I went through this 3 years ago. Keep studying your MM/Dawkins and decend into hell, and we’ll be here when you come out.

    Like


  113. I maintain, if you are hanging out in bars as your main socialization network at 30, you are loser, not an alpha male.

    From the age of 35 onward, my weekends were spent at large dinner parties, cocktail parties, the opera, the symphony, and in the summer, at lake homes, mine, their’s others.

    It was considered fairly normal to invite singles for meeting singles, given that most of us were involved with someone. No, thats not because I’m older than you all, its because the bars were full of losers. There are far more baby boomers than there are of you guys and, it was baby boomers that launched the so called sexual revolution. Do some research, you will find that there was far more promiscuity then than there is now–remember, the worst thing that could happen in the late 70’s, early 80’s was a dose of the clap. There were no permanent or life threatening STDs.

    That isn’t to say that men and women didn’t go to bars that are of a “quality” nature, but they went with friends and they would not be caught dead leaving with a stranger or handing out their phone numbers to strangers. People who “live” in bars, are people who cannot afford to throw an adult party–dinner party, cocktail party–don’t own a house and are simply renting the amenities that we could afford.

    And, as I said before, anyone in church bright and early on a Sunday morning, was not out having casual sex the night before.

    Like


  114. “I’m an over 30 chick who went to a bar last Friday and ended up with three men hitting hard on me, and of course there was Kathy. We like to pretend. The reason I don’t go out more often is the music generally sucks. I’m in it for the music and only went because my two very young friends invited me. See, roissy, some people are just individuals and don’t fit the mold and image you love to try to force people into.”

    “BARS” AND “CLUBS” ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

    DO NOT CONFUSE THE TWO.

    WHERE YOU WENT WAS A “CLUB,” IF THERE WAS A BAND PLAYING. BUT IF THERE WASN’T AT LEAST A DEEJAY, AND ALL THERE WAS WAS LIQUOR, THEN YOU WENT TO A “BAR.”

    I’M TIRED OF THIS “NEVER FIND A LOVER IN A BAR” NONSENSE MYSELF. I’VE MET PEOPLE IN SCHOOLS AND OTHER SOBER DAYTIME FUNCTIONS WHO WERE JUST AS FLAKEY.

    Like


  115. “86 Astra
    The best place to find a quality guy/girl is college”

    NO IT AINT EITHER – not only can a college guy/girl flake out on you, but even worse youll still have to see them every day!! i mean, you CAN find a lover at college, but its no more a be-all or end-all than some bar. or church. or club. or some first-fridays meeting.

    quality guys/girls are where you find them. there is no one guaranteed surefire place.

    Like


  116. on September 2, 2008 at 1:15 pm random passerby

    Comment_So_Your_English:
    I think that pretty much establishes the commenters level of savage visciousness. So now I’m crazy for disagreeing with him. And if a woman goes to a bar, “he isn’t interested in ANYONE who goes to bars”.

    People like the commenter need a “base” of “choice” and “just preferences” jabber to fall back on when their screaming threats go against them.

    If someone calls them out on being thugs, then can then focus on the “choice” crap of their conversation, jabbering about how they said this, and they said that. It’s all noise. You could delete every “choice” statement, every “personal preference” statement, from his comments, and you’d get the real him. And the real him is a viscious little thug.
    What the fuck are you rambling about?

    Anon49:
    I maintain, if you are hanging out in bars as your main socialization network at 30, you are loser, not an alpha male.

    And I maintain that you losers (yes, you) need to stop hijacking the term “alpha male” just so you can feel better about themselves.

    Like


  117. Roissy, do you care to respond in a post to @113.

    Personally, I think he has a very valid point.

    Like


  118. If you don’t see any over-30 women in bars, the you’re not hanging out at the right bars. (Or maybe that means you ARE hanging out at the right bars, but you get the point.)

    Like


  119. Fat chicks (usually not more than 10%)
    Over 30 women
    Ugly chicks

    You are beyond rude! There is nothing wrong with the above mentioned…beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all!

    What is your idea of “fat chicks,
    over 30 women and ugly chicks?”

    Seems to me that you are lacking in kindness and it would seem that you are also desperate!

    Like


  120. Also my hubby and I met in a bar and let me tell you we all started out svelt but now we would be the people you would have nothing to do with…only because we are older and a little bit thicker than we would like! However that does not mean that anyone should listen and believe everything you believe!

    It would be a very boring and ugly world if everyone was a rail thin woman and a hunk of a man! As I said before..to each their own!

    Like


  121. anonymous:

    take your swpl convenient lies somewhere else…they’ll fall on deaf ears here…along with being a load of b.s. nobody cares about a hefty couple…sex sells

    Like


  122. I must tell all my girlfriends about this site!! As we all work at Hooters I’m sure they will be quite amused!

    Like


  123. Also I am not white! So F U ok! And just because I said we aren’t svelt anymore doesn’t make us any less desirable!

    Like


  124. ok, then take your liberal sensibilities elsewhere…beauty is subjective…don’t judge a book by its cover is a fairy tale told to unattractive people

    sure, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but its amazing that the beholders in question tend to have a similar eye

    men value women based on attractiveness, that’s they whole point of roissy’s blog…every thought and argument he has is an offshoot of the biomechanics that rule our lives…and there’s nothing you can say to change that

    Like


  125. Bars are for alcoholics, fuck ups, chain smokers, cliques, womanizers, skanks, burnouts, and assholes. I don’t care if you are a nasa rocket scientist, if you live in a bar, you are total fucking loser. End of story.

    Like


  126. […] talks about the kind of girls who go to bars from August […]

    Like


  127. Note: Not all female bartenders are motivated by the amount of attention that they will receive. The money potential is massive. I made twice the amount of CASH income then some desk job could ever offer AND the government could only tax me on what I was obligated to claim, which was a mere 10% of my actual take home income. I paid for my school, my car and my lifestyle without having to take out large loans or load up credit cards.

    Like


  128. […] is no such thing as a “club girl.” There is no such thing as a “bar girl.” Those are just false distinctions thrown up by lameasses who can’t cut it in those […]

    Like


  129. Here are a list of girls I met at bars:

    Walmart employee – She got fucked same night.
    Receptionist – See above.
    ER nurse – She got fucked 2nd day.
    Macy’s counter girl – She got fucked same night

    Like


  130. […] game isn’t just about picking up women at bars. For fuck’s sake, this is a lazy, half-brained meme that needs to die already. The reality just doesn’t bear it out. My last three girlfriends […]

    Like


  131. yea, but tougher to meet the under 21 set at bars.

    Like