You Only Like Me Now Because I’m Thin

About five years ago I had a two month fling with a young girl. She had a cute face but was a little on the chubby side, probably 15 pounds over ideal female weight for her height. As a result, I didn’t put much effort into dating her, preferring instead to enjoy the easy sex (mostly blowjobs) and being aloof while she chased me. And chase she did. The hard-to-get badboy attitude worked like magic on her because she was a girl of “high primativeness“:

The primativeness correlates more with emotionality than with culture. Instinctive programs, when finding resemblance of internal signaling attributes with some factors of outside situation, create corresponding emotions and a highly primative person gladly submits to them. A low primative person, feeling the same forceful emotions, is capable of acting contrary to them. […]

As was mentioned above, women trust intuition and feelings more than logical conclusions, this composes a so-called woman’s logic. I.e. the highly primative specimens are prevalent among women. […]

There is a widespread opinion among the vulgar public that it is necessary to beat a wife from time to time. By this a husband beating his wife demonstrates kind of high rank (visual, of course). And this can even attract a low cultural woman especially with high primativeness (masochism probably grows on this ground). Such woman rushes to defend her man as soon as the first hair falls down from his head despite asking to punish him only a moment before. Highly cultural and especially low-primative woman will not act this way. And actual rank of this man can be quite low. Even his buddies may have no respect for him. However, it is appropriate to mention that the instinct cannot analyze anything it just reacts on some key attributes, in this case – aweless attitude to a woman (if he beats -> he does not appreciate -> he has many women -> alpha has many women).

Anyhow, I was dating around and eventually grew tired of the drama with this girl. She planted herself on my front stoop one evening waiting for me to get home from work, a delirious look in her eyes. That was the deal killer. I allowed our fling to fizzle out. My tolerance for a girl’s annoying behavior drops with each extra pound she carries.

Fast forward a few years. I was at a party and she was there. She had lost some weight and, naturally, looked better. I geared up to apply a heaping dose of my patented devilish charm. We reminisced, kissed, and met for a date a week later. The date went fine as far as reunion dates go, considering our sexual history, but I could sense she was occupied with more than our conversation. I dropped her off and went home. I texted her a few days later and got no reply. I didn’t pay it much heed or bother following up because I was dating two other women at the time.

Recently, a friend of mine bumped into this girl on the Metro. I had first met her through him, so they knew each other. They chatted and the subject of my reunion date with her came up. She told my friend she stopped “dating” me (in a girl’s world, one date is equivalent to “dating”) because “I only liked her now that she was thin”. Presumably, she thought this meant I wasn’t interested in her true self.

She was right. I wanted to reacquaint myself with her and fuck her because she had lost weight and looked better than before.

Necessary but not sufficient. Women have trouble comprehending this phrase, much like they are born with a mental block making them incapable of grasping the concepts of generalizations and exceptions to the rule.

A hot skinny body and pretty face is necessary for a man to find a woman attractive, but it is not a guarantee for creating a deep love that will last. This girl, like most girls, had an insecure ego-based fear that she was being judged by her looks instead of her more nebulous attributes. Former chubbies are often acutely cognizant of this and consequently harbor tremendous resentment against men and a loathing of male desire. Only a few former chubbies have the open heart and love of men for who they are to avoid spiraling into a lovekilling vengeful trap of anti-male sentiment.

Here is the truth ladies: You ARE being judged primarily on your looks by men who want to fuck you. Get used to it. Your personality is only icing on the cake that matters more when the kinetic fucking turns into relationship potential.

I hope for the sake of her love life that this girl doesn’t carry her fat baggage to the next guy she dates. No man wants to be made to feel guilty for his masculine desire.





Comments


  1. Finally, back to the good stuff. I got tired of reading whiney paleocon rants about Obama.

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  2. Hey, this blog is really helpful in pushing women off of the pedestal they (and many betas) have constructed over the last fifty years. But, the more I read this, the more resentful I feel toward all women…I still want to do them, but I don’t even consider relationships. In every woman who is available, I see the same flaw and the same primitive selectivity that Roissy talks about. It practically erodes my real attachment to them.

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  3. She probably worked so hard to lose that weight so that more men would be attracted to her. Lose the self-importance and be happy that it’s working!

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  4. The real ego buster is not just your ‘shallow’ vaulation of her, but the horror of realizing her formerly lower place in the pecking order. How many guys that ‘got away’ wouldn’t have, had she been that thin then? It’s chilling to suddenly see clearly past mistakes. But this is what happens if a guy ‘learns game’.

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  5. @Tiger: If a bee stings you because you’re unwittingly near it’s nest, do you resent the bee? Probably not. It’s just following instincts. Humans are not so different.

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  6. Here is the truth ladies: You ARE being judged primarily on your looks by men who want to fuck you.

    The David Alexander version is that unless you look like a porn star, your personality will simply determine my willingness to be your male friend.

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  7. There’s so much truth in this post, I loved it

    But the best part was this

    “She told my friend she stopped “dating” me (in a girl’s world, one date is equivalent to “dating”) ”

    Whatever helps you sleep at night mah, you should have told her to go kick rocks

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  8. on supposed fear of desire:

    Women do not **fear** masculine desire; we **test** it.
    We (subconsciously) believe that a man who can control his masculine desire can also control his anger, his finances, his work habits, and more. We are disappointed when men fail this test.

    When out to dinner with my husband, I want him to restrain his glances to my intentionally exposed decolletage. (Allow your partner to see you look once, otherwise , she’ll feel defeated :- )). I want him to pass my test.

    Agree that men ought not feel guilty for desire. Your libidos are hard to understand, but also amazing . They can be breath-taking.

    Your fling sounds wonderfully ego-intact, and she demonstrated that male desire is necessary but not sufficient.

    ………………….rock-bottom primative here.

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  9. This is great, thanks for getting back to why I kept reading your shit in the first place Roissy – your last 2 sentences are perfect. This is the kind of girl that would immediately gain 40 lbs once the wedding was over. *Shudder*

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  10. Is this word high “Primitive-ness” like caveman or high “Primate-iveness” like chimpanzees? Maybe it doesn’t make a difference, but I’d like to know.

    Always best to avoid formerly fat girls. Their neuroses are legend.

    It’s amazing how often Roissy has to hammer down the point that #1 a girl’s physical beauty is paramount in the initial stages and #2 personality and compatibility come later. Every girl knows this, but they are so invested in wanting to believe the world is how they think the world should be rather than accepting it as it, that they’ll spin themselves into logical circles to do so.

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  11. Roissy wrote:

    “Here is the truth ladies: You ARE being judged primarily on your looks by men who want to fuck you. Get used to it. Your personality is only icing on the cake that matters more when the kinetic fucking turns into relationship potential.”

    True, in general, but will someone please tell me why the US is the *only* country in which I see couples consisting of a reasonably good-looking man (maybe a 7 or 7.5), about 35, and his wife, a disgusting, shapelessly overweight cow with a plain (or even ugly) face, short hair, and slovenly clothes?

    Go to the National Mall, one of the popular Smithsonians museums of a sunny spring morning and take a good gander at ’em, because there you will see a snapshot of Middle America, and get a feel for what kinds of people are coupling up… what the average youngish American couple looks like nowadays. You will see tons of couples that fit this description.

    I mean this country is the ONLY place in the world where I see this all over the place — at airport restaurants, in casinos, at major tourist venues — and almost invariably, these people are of your typical “American” whitebread Midwestern-type stock… WASP/Germanic.

    This *IS* Middle America, and I attribute this to the disproportionate power that women have in America.

    It’s not just the trendy, urban, liberal, Obama-voting feminist chicks who reach way above their paygrade in the looks department and set their sights only on attractive alphas.

    It’s women in Middle America, as well. I’d venture that the vast majority of these couples I mentioned — the stolid, pale, cornfed Midwestern types where the husband is a good-looking farmboy, and the white is a fat amorphous she-hog with elephantine legs, wearing the most asexual clothes imaginable — I’d venture that most of these people voted for McCain/Palin, drive gas-hogging SUVs, are members of the local Jaycees or Chamber of Commerce in their smug, Midwestern towns. The husbands probably manage Buick dealerships and the wives make potluck dinners for the local Lutheran church.

    The so-called “empowerment” of women in this country — a product of feminism but I believe equally a product of hypercompetitive capitalism — has become so deeply and pervasively ingrained in the fabric of our society that you can state a general rule:

    In America, women do the chosing and men are the chosen.

    Contrarily, in traditional patriarchal societies all over the world, MEN do the chosing and women are the chosen.

    But in America, it is we men who generally do the settling.

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  12. his wife, a disgusting, shapelessly overweight cow with a plain (or even ugly) face, short hair, and slovenly clothes?

    Unless you give most of these women a TV-quality makeover, nothing you can do can make them more attractive and better looking.

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  13. “This is the kind of girl that would immediately gain 40 lbs once the wedding was over. ”

    You hit the nail on the head with this comment.

    One of my best friends and roomates recently moved out of our place and in with his 15-20 lb overweight girlfriend.

    I sat down one day and said the exact same thing to him – you know this girl is going to let herself go if you married her. He stuttered and was ashamed and refused to admit reality that if this is her “single” presentation, once she’s off the market her lack of excersize, poor eating habits, etc will be even worse.

    Best advice I’ve ever heard: don’t marry a fat chick.

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  14. @12

    David – liposuction and massive plastic surgery might do the trick. Plus lots of laser treatments for those varicose veins, which are proudly on display all the time, since these women insist on wearing shorts whenever they go out.

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  15. on November 7, 2008 at 7:42 pm Michael Foody

    So many women have it in their head that it is a character flaw in men to value beauty as they do. This is childish. If a woman values intellect is this somehow more noble? How? A man doesn’t have any more control over his intellect than a woman has over her beauty. It is a question without a moral dimension. It is not wrong, it is merely inconvenient to not be beautiful in a world where beauty is prized. Being a grown up means dealing with the world as it is and not pouting because the world won’t bend to suit your whims.

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  16. Joe T, been to Germany? You’d retract your “only country” if you had. Rumor has it the Brits are getting up there as well.

    This is heresy to some, but there is such a thing as a woman being too thin. That doesn’t seem to be mmuch of a problem here. I thought the Northeast had a lot of overweight people, but San Antonio has us beat.

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  17. Joe T.:

    True, in general, but will someone please tell me why the US is the *only* country in which I see couples consisting of a reasonably good-looking man (maybe a 7 or 7.5), about 35, and his wife, a disgusting, shapelessly overweight cow with a plain (or even ugly) face, short hair, and slovenly clothes?

    Why do you think U.S. is the only country like that? There are plenty of men everywhere who are good looking, but geeky, shy, emotionally immature, and/or seriously deluded about the essential principles of male-female relationships. Do you think they get hot girls in other countries?

    Of course, it is true that due to a different lifestyle and genetics, people in some places look better on average, and women even more so, so that most men end up with objectively better looking women than their equivalents in the U.S. But couples in which the man is much better looking or vice versa definitely exist everywhere.

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  18. 8 Anony

    I’ll look at my wife’s tits as much as and as long as I like. That goes for ALL women who intentionally expose their boys. This kind of test dies with the NOW women’s rights movement.

    If you don’t want stares, cover them up.

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  19. probably 15 pounds over ideal female weight for her height

    Oh, let’s put some numbers here. This will be fun!

    Here’s some help to decide:
    http://www.cockeyed.com/photos/bodies/heightweight.shtml

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  20. Nate:

    I sat down one day and said the exact same thing to him – you know this girl is going to let herself go if you married her. He stuttered and was ashamed and refused to admit reality that if this is her “single” presentation, once she’s off the market her lack of excersize, poor eating habits, etc will be even worse.

    He is lucky to have such a good friend as you. Most people would never dare to speak such unpleasant truths even to their closest friends.

    Best advice I’ve ever heard: don’t marry a fat chick.

    Unfortunately, marrying a hot girl can also be a bad move, even if she is likely to stay in good shape as long as possible. The problem is that once she finally hits the wall at forty-something, she won’t look that much better than average women of the same age, but her sense of entitlement may still remain, resulting in a very nasty personality. There are ways to avoid this problem, but it does require some skill and luck.

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  21. Unfortunately, marrying a hot girl can also be a bad move,

    The best strategy is to marry a girl who is just over your attractiveness threshold (as in, she turns you on) but has the best personality possible.

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  22. on November 7, 2008 at 8:20 pm Ba1anced-A Beta with Alpha Tendencies

    Roissy -The ever brutal hedonist said:

    “Former chubbies are often acutely cognizant of this and consequently harbor tremendous resentment against men and a loathing of male desire. Only a few former chubbies have the open heart and love of men for who they are to avoid spiraling into a lovekilling vengeful trap of anti-male sentiment.”

    Chubby chicks are like the female Betas. They often try to fight for the affections of men that have little interest in them and at the same time shun the lesser-betas that would kill for their affection. It is a hideous cycle amongst the “lesser”people. But, with few exceptions, it is a truism of life, or western civilization per se. A woman’s Beauty is 90% of her swagger as a man’s Charisma, Attitude, and Assertivness is his. Ever wonder why many extremely beautiful women lack in the intelligence dept? They never really had to develop a cognitive mind and there was always someone to think for them.

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  23. will someone please tell me why the US is the *only* country in which I see couples consisting of a reasonably good-looking man (maybe a 7 or 7.5), about 35, and his wife, a disgusting, shapelessly overweight cow with a plain (or even ugly) face, short hair, and slovenly clothes?

    You see plenty of the opposite, too – doofy, overweight men with hott wives or girlfriends. Some of the men must have money, or very strong Game, but more likely they were in reasonably decent shape at the time of marriage and then porked up something wicked. It’s not just women who get fat.

    Peter

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  24. Again, another great post about what we called “P-Squared” when I was up and coming. “P-Squared” is Potential to Pork. I’m quite sure we could somehow develop a scientific method to quantify this objectively, taking such factors into account as:

    * age
    * height
    * pounds currently overweight
    * current weight of mother
    * weight history
    * build characteristics

    Usually, men can intuitively see this coming. Its offensive to me when I see this happen. Its the same as a guy being industrious when he is dating, and becoming and unemployed couch potato after marriage.

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  25. i prefer ’em before they lose that weight….that haterade they sip on for years afterward……..sux0rz.

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  26. @16

    MarkD – I spend a *huge* amount of time in Germany, mostly Frankfurt, but also Baden-Baden, Berlin, Munich, Dusseldorf, etc. For a long while I was traveling to Frankfurt almost every month on business. I’m headed there again later this month.

    I don’t really know what you’re talking about, but I suspect you’re referring to people in what passes for “the sticks” in Germany, i.e., low-class people out in the countryside. (Although Germany is a highly urbanized country these days and there really aren’t a lot of farmers and guys walking around in liederhosen anymore — somehow I *suspect* this is the archetype you’re talking about — i.e., the “traditional” German rural couple, where one’s appearance didn’t count for much of anything, and a person’s value lay in whether they knew a trade, or had a strong back. That archetype is long gone in Germany, though.)

    If you’re talking about modern, urban, young (20s and 30s) people all over Germany, I *have no friggin idea* what you’re talking about! In every corner of the country, the norm is attractive, stylish, slim young women.

    German guys of every social class tend to be very different from American guys. First, German men are masculine without any macho posing. There’s much less posturing among guys to attract chicks than you find in the US. Go out to clubs, and you find almost no guys are pumped up from spending their lives in the weight-room (despite the “Hans and Frans” cliche which I think originated with Schwarzeneggar, who is Austrian and left his native culture anyway, probably because it didn’t fit his personality).

    German guys tend to be what I call “stylish nerds”. They’ll wear jeans and what Roissy would probably call a “beta” shirt, but incongruously be wearing $500 Italian shoes. A lot more young people in Europe tend to wear glasses than in the US, because our eye-care industry has brainwashed us into thinking glasses are geeky, so we spend money on contacts and LASIK surgery.

    German girls, and young women between 18 and 35, tend to be absolutely beautiful, on the whole. The incidence of overweight women may be *slightly* higher than you’d see in France, Italy, or Spain, but in general young German women are tall (average around 5’9″-5’11”), slim, have great figures, upright posture, perfect skin (you can’t even see a pore), perfect teeth, beautiful blue or grey eyes, and the incidence of 8s and 9s is higher there than in a random sampling of young American women.

    If you’re implying that there are a lot of German couples where the woman is a fat pig and the man is good looking, I don’t think I have even seen *one* such couple, in all the time I’ve ever spent in Germany, which has been very considerable. Maybe among very old couples, say, 55+. But then, in that age group, both the man and the woman will generally be a little less than desirable looking.

    In my experience, the average young German man wouldn’t be caught *dead* dating or marrying an overweight woman, a plain woman, or a plain overweight woman, much less one who is actually ugly and overweight.

    Sure, such women do exist in Germany, but they are not exactly man-magnets and German men have *considerably* more power to choose than American men do.

    Although progressive in many ways, Germany is a more traditional society than the USA in a number of ways. German women can be educated, competitive, and career-minded, but when it comes to their love lives and marriage, they take the role of helpmate, nurturer, child-rearer, and housewife. The man comes first, period. In that sense, although they normally present a very cool, efficient exterior German women are gloriously feminine.

    I think all this has to do with the German sense of efficiency and the incredibly logical way their entire society seems to be structured. Germans seem to live by a creed of “division of labor” and “a place for everything and everything in its place”. Women naturally want to become housewives and child-rearers, putting their husband’s career first, not because German women are stupid or lack ambition or talent, but because they innately know that it is the logical thing to do — the most efficient deployment of their skills, abilities, and talents as women.

    Because of all this — acknowledging that the husband is the provider and the woman’s natural role is to care for the husband and raise the family — I think the “stock price” of being a male in Germany is much higher than in the US, and a young German male’s ability to pick and choose among prospective mates is correspondingly higher.

    I really can’t explain why and how, but the Midwestern people I decried in my earlier post — the cornfed farmboys who bizarrely marry those amorphous blobs with varicose veins — actually are genetically descended largely from German (and other northern European) stock.

    But the real country of Germany today is much, much different — and better — than the one you seem to be describing!

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  27. PA:

    The best strategy is to marry a girl who is just over your attractiveness threshold (as in, she turns you on) but has the best personality possible.

    I agree. That’s the exact strategy I have in mind too — if I ever get married, it will likely be the sweetest available 7-7.5. The problem is that in modern society, even sevens tend to have grossly overinflated egos and entitlement complexes, not to mention horrible delusions about human sexuality and reproduction fueled by the mass media and, to a lesser degree, feminist-influenced education. Thus, it requires game not only to attract them initially, but also to keep them attracted in the long run. This can get tiresome even after a few months, let alone once she finally hits the wall many (hopefully) years into the marriage.

    Where I come from, we have a saying that a man can expect only three things in life to be faithful: his dog, his money, and an ugly woman. Of course, pretty girls can be faithful too once in a serious relationship, even if they’re not constantly gamed. However, this is generally true only for those that were raised traditionally in good families and somehow avoided the corrupting influences of their peers and the modern culture. Needless to say, these are a dwindling minority throughout the Western world nowadays, and hard to find even if you know where to look.

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  28. The best strategy is to marry a girl who is just over your attractiveness threshold (as in, she turns you on) but has the best personality possible.

    Porn stars only exist on film, not the real world, so some of us are doomed. 😛

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  29. So this dumb bitch completely took a date with you JUST so she could “reject” you afterwords? Speaking of beatings, I’d say that stupid cunt seriously needs one.

    typical bitch… i hope you nutted all over her face at some point

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  30. Joe T.:

    German girls, and young women between 18 and 35, tend to be absolutely beautiful, on the whole. […] In my experience, the average young German man wouldn’t be caught *dead* dating or marrying an overweight woman, a plain woman, or a plain overweight woman, much less one who is actually ugly and overweight.

    I’ve been to Germany, and I occasionally meet Germans where I live, and I definitely didn’t observe what you describe. Yes, there are fewer fat women in Germany than in most of the U.S., but your other remarks are absurdly exaggerated. An average German girl is perhaps in somewhat better shape than her American counterpart, but she’s by no means “absolutely beautiful”, and the percentage of impressively beautiful women (8+) in Germany is minuscule just like anywhere else.

    Among the few dozen German women I’ve met in my life, there were certainly more strikingly ugly than strikingly pretty ones. And average German guys unwilling to even date plain girls? Please give me a break. Just run Google Image search with “Hochzeitspaar” (German for “wedding couple”) to see the girls that German guys marry.

    Women naturally want to become housewives and child-rearers, putting their husband’s career first, not because German women are stupid or lack ambition or talent, but because they innately know that it is the logical thing to do — the most efficient deployment of their skills, abilities, and talents as women. Because of all this — acknowledging that the husband is the provider and the woman’s natural role is to care for the husband and raise the family — I think the “stock price” of being a male in Germany is much higher than in the US, and a young German male’s ability to pick and choose among prospective mates is correspondingly higher.

    Either your whole post is sarcastic or we’re living in parallel universes. If you’re looking for places where the traditional values you describe are dead and buried, Germany will be near the top of the list. Just look at some basic statistics about German marriage and fertility rates; they’re all rock bottom. Google “Zeugungsstreik” if you can read German.

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  31. Joe T said the stolid, pale, cornfed Midwestern types where the husband is a good-looking farmboy, and the white is a fat amorphous she-hog with elephantine legs, wearing the most asexual clothes imaginable

    screams
    *dead faint*

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  32. 21 – PA:The best strategy is to marry a girl who is just over your attractiveness threshold (as in, she turns you on) but has the best personality possible.

    It’s a myth that hotter chicks cheat more.

    It’s even a myth that they have more sex. Ugly chicks will take whatever they can get – and might keep that mindset for a lifetime:
    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Fat-women-have-more-sex-than–normal–counterparts/379778

    Pretty girls might have more opportunity, but they have also learned to refrain and turn guys down.

    There are far better predictors of female adultery such as her cultural background, the behavior of her parents/siblings and her past. I have several posts on my blog backing this up with actual data.

    With your strategy one might end up with a barely attractive wife who still fucks anything in sight. Fucked over twice.

    Also, keep in mind that a 10 quickly deteriorates to a 5 once she’s past her prime.

    I say – get the best that’s out there. If you deserve it and can be The Man for her, her hypergamy will prevent her from cheating (instead of instigating it in case you fail).

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  33. BTW Joe T, I don’t think those women look like that until after they have had a few kids. Most of those women don’t identify with feminists. They just let themselves go because all the other women around them have. Most of them are very unhappy with themselves and their spouses, and find that motherhood isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be.

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  34. Feminism may be to blame for the weight problems some women (and men) show in the US, and Canada, but not in the way that you mean – that it’s given women a sense of entitlement that permits them to get fat.

    The strain of trying to have two careers, often financially necessary nowadays, and keep family life going is rough on both parents in a marriage. Even if work and long commutes don’t exhaust them and make it hard for them to exercise, they will make it harder for them to cook good meals. Fast food becomes the standard family fall-back, and it isn’t good for anyone. It’s very easy to overeat when you’re eating pizza and food from McDonald’s, easier than when you eat home-cooked meals.

    That’s probably why Mr and Mrs Middle America are fatter than ever today. Ms New York Well-Off Career Woman isn’t fat because she can probably afford help with her children.

    Clio

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  35. Clio,

    While what you say may have some merit, its still an absolute that men can usually tell who is going to be fat in advance of marriage and all of those things you mentioned.

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  36. Not to drag down my own sex but many of the women Joet wrote about look more masculine than their husbands do. The butch haircuts many of those women wear kill me. There are big women in this country but not all of them throw in the towel completely. Comedian Monique is a big woman but she dresses well, puts on a little bit of makeup, and styles her hair.

    <a http://www.lanebryant.com/pagebuilder/

    kinda like these^^^ full figured women.

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  37. on November 7, 2008 at 10:12 pm Ba1anced-A Beta with Alpha Tendencies

    KAB Said:

    “So this dumb bitch completely took a date with you JUST so she could “reject” you afterwords?”

    This is common amongsts people. It is ego-warfare. It goes like this: someone pissed you off or dissapoints you, especially when it comes to issues of the heart. You make momentum out of the dissapointment and improve what you thought caused the person to dissapoint you. Then you wait for fate to reveal an opportunity , or you try to create an opportunity to enact your retribution. Ever heard of ” The Ugly Duckling”. This is the premise of that story. The moral is “You should have seen the beauty before it was blatantly apparrent, now , it’s too late for you, suffer from your stupid choice. ” It’ is a small ego victory that in the sum of all things means nothing but to the one that enacted it. You can hear this in pop culture songs.

    “Back then they didn’t want me, but now I’m hot…they all on me”

    -Mike jones

    “If you liked it then you shoulda put a ring on it”

    -Beyonce

    “They caught the VAPORS”

    -Biz Markee and Snoop Dog’s Version

    Many people want retribution for their rejection. It feels good but it’s pointless ultimately.

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  38. As I was losing weight (60 lbs), a guy who worked in a pizza shop I walked by every day stopped me one day on my way home from work: “Wow, Jane. You look a lot less homely these days.” It was the nicest compliment I had ever received. We went on the worst date of my life. He grabbed my boob and threw his hand up in triumph. “YES!!!” he wailed. I learned at that moment that being less ugly means I can afford to have *some* standards.

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  39. She gamed you, dude. She won, you lost. She gained status at the expense of yours, chimpy.

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  40. on November 7, 2008 at 10:27 pm Ba1anced-A Beta with Alpha Tendencies

    Keith said:

    “She gamed you, dude. She won, you lost. She gained status at the expense of yours, chimpy.”

    It’s only a full victory IF the other person cares and reacts to your rejection of retribution.

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  41. Married But Cool:

    While what you say may have some merit, its still an absolute that men can usually tell who is going to be fat in advance of marriage and all of those things you mentioned.

    But if you intend to get married and stay together for life, that likely means spending 50+ years together with the same woman. Even if you marry young and she never gets fat, she will by biological necessity lose her good looks after about a third of that time, possibly even sooner (remember that at 25, it’s 15 years to 40 and 55 years to 80). Thus, if you marriage critically depends on her not becoming ugly, you are doomed either way.

    The formula for disaster that I mentioned in my above post is when a pretty girl develops a sense of entitlement because she’s used to guys around her willing to dance at her command (and don’t forget that attractive people have significant advantages even when dealing with members of the same sex). At the same time, she may end up with a guy who is permanently running his best game on her, rather than playing it straight. For a man, this takes away much of the enjoyment from the actual relationship, but many guys will still game a girl who would naturally be out of their league, rather than play it straight with a plain looking one, for the benefit of hotter sex and showing off. Mind you, it doesn’t have to be elaborate, complex, consciously learned game of the sort used by the likes of Roissy; an intelligent and open-minded man will eventually learn the basic tricks by himself if he just keeps trying long enough. It’s pretty obvious why such a situation is a recipe for disaster once the woman’s looks start fading.

    Like


  42. 11minutes saidIt’s a myth that hotter chicks cheat more.

    It’s even a myth that they have more sex. Ugly chicks will take whatever they can get – and might keep that mindset for a lifetime

    I back this fully.

    Like


  43. if I ever get married, it will likely be the sweetest available 7-7.5.

    Because the alphas monopolize more than their share of female attention, a male 7 (overall attractiveness based on game, looks, intelligence etc.) will not end up with a female 7 (overall attractiveness based largely on looks). He will end up scrambling for a 6. Blech.

    And, of course, once you start to improve your game to get a 7, you start to realize that with just a little more work you can end up with an 8 or 9.

    Like


  44. @ 36 Chic Noir

    One of my fat friends has stated that fat women in the United States have no excuse to look hideous when there’s Lane Bryant and Torrid. I suspect that most women just dress in a frumpy manner out of habit and simplicity and low cost. When you’re running around after little kids, it’s easier to wear crummy clothes. As for the men, while many of them may bitch about their fat wives, I suspect some of them don’t mind since they’re fearful of their wives becoming pretty and “fleeing” for the seduction of players, and I suspect it’s easier for the men to deal with. Just look at the stereotype of television dads complaining about the length of time taken to get ready to go out, or the shopping habits of the wife.

    DA for you^^^

    Not really, Chic. 😦

    Like


  45. 11minutes:

    It’s a myth that hotter chicks cheat more. It’s even a myth that they have more sex. Ugly chicks will take whatever they can get – and might keep that mindset for a lifetime: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Fat-women-have-more-sex-than–normal–counterparts/379778 Pretty girls might have more opportunity, but they have also learned to refrain and turn guys down.

    I don’t think there is any significant correlation between looks and promiscuity for women. Studies that try to measure promiscuity are notoriously unreliable because it’s impossible to find representative samples and elicit honest answers, even if they are totally anonymous. (In social sciences, it has been proven countless times that people lie to make themselves look better even in conditions of absolute anonymity.)

    Even if some correlation between looks and promiscuity exists, it’s dwarfed by the influence of the values instilled in the woman by her family and social circles, as well as various other experiences in life that both pretty and ugly girls encounter. The only difference is that hot slutty women end up shagging charming high-end players while still rejecting 99% of the swarms of guys that hit on them wherever they go, whereas ugly ones have to satisfy themselves with dumpster-diving losers.

    Like


  46. It’s a myth that hotter chicks cheat more.

    Agreed.

    It’s even a myth that they have more sex. Ugly chicks will take whatever they can get – and might keep that mindset for a lifetime.

    Not true. More attractive people of both sexes have more and earlier sex.

    In my experience, it is the 6s, 7s, and 8s who are most careful about limiting their number of sexual partners. As noted, 5s and below will take what they can get, while 9s and 10s can pretty much do whatever they want without much diminishing either the quantity or the quality of male attention they get.

    Like


  47. I enjoy hearing how beautiful my German women are! Someday I will be back!

    Like


  48. Thursday:

    Because the alphas monopolize more than their share of female attention, a male 7 (overall attractiveness based on game, looks, intelligence etc.) will not end up with a female 7 (overall attractiveness based largely on looks). He will end up scrambling for a 6. Blech. And, of course, once you start to improve your game to get a 7, you start to realize that with just a little more work you can end up with an 8 or 9.

    What you say is true when it comes to pick-up artistry. However, girls decent enough that I would consider them as marriage material are few in number nowadays, and those that are 8+ in looks (and still not taken at ages that I might be feasibly targeting) are vanishingly rare among them, so each step up on the looks scale is much more difficult than among those that would be suitable only for flings. Admittedly, I’m talking about very high standards of decency here.

    Furthermore, you’ll probably agree that the difficulty of establishing a really enjoyable relationship in which the girl truly and honestly adores you, so that you can actually lower your guard and relax a bit instead of making the constant effort to run your best game, rises exponentially with the quality of her looks. This is true even for very decent girls whose perspective hasn’t been skewed by years of chasing after alpha players. Thus, it seems to me that the additional effort to go up a point from 7-7.5 wouldn’t be worthy, especially considering that once you actually marry the girl, her good looks will vanish relatively soon anyway.

    Like


  49. DA is tragic soul ;-).

    Like


  50. on November 7, 2008 at 11:25 pm Dave from Hawaii

    Vladimir,

    At the same time, she may end up with a guy who is permanently running his best game on her, rather than playing it straight.

    The married or long term relationship man that does this is least likely to suffer her “getting bored” or “falling out of love” with him, ending in divorce because she began cheating on him and deciding to cash out and chain him into servitude via the alimony/child-support enslavement institution that is U.S. family law — while she jumps into bed with the next bad-boy thug that get’s her hot and bothered like he used to when they first began dating.

    I got married young, and simply did not understand anything about game, or the benefits of assertive masculinity. I put my wife on a pedestal and spent 7 years or so of a very contentious, walking on egg-shell type of relationship that teetered towards divorce more than a few times.

    I discovered PUA/Game sites like this one a few years ago, and after a bit of reading on shit tests, and the subconscious mating desires of females, I began to “run game” on my wife.

    The transformation of our relationship is astounding.

    Yes, she put on a good 40 lbs. a couple of years after we got married.

    Once I learned to game her subconscious, competitive instincts and began to plant suggestions in her mind that I was desirable to other women…she’s gotten motivated and lost the weight, and her affection towards me reverted back to the way she was before got married.

    Once I started recognizing her shit tests and began to not just “pass them” but literally blow them up, the passive-aggressive emotionally driven conflict that had been the hallmark of our relationship has all but disappeared.

    We don’t fight anymore.

    My wife, who used to grumble and complain and tell all her closest friends and family that we had a “difficult relationship with lots of problems that needs working on” now tells everyone she’s happily married without blinking an eye.

    And she has no idea that the real reason why…that I basically educated myself on the realities of the male-female relational dynamic in terms of mating strategies as broken down by Pick-Up Artists such as roissy et al, and realized that my previous actions and behavior were based on the feminist zeitgeist that programs most of us who are raised in Western culture to put Women on pedestals and try and be the “nice guy” beta as the key to a happy and fulfilling relationship.

    Many pickup artists will often say that their advice is simply for men wanting to have the alpha “sex-with-as-many-hot-women-as-possible-without-getting-trapped-into-commitment” lifestyle.

    However, the insight you can glean from the PUA on the principles dealing with females biological imperatives and their base motivations is quite instructive on learning to maintain a steady, monogamous relationship as well.

    Like


  51. — The problem is that in modern society, even sevens tend to have grossly overinflated egos and entitlement complexes

    Yes, all too often. When I dated the most (late 20s thru early 30s) I had little problem getting 7.5s – 8s, but I always relied on a little skill in finding them.

    A list of my former girlfriends (all 7.5 and up) includes: a cute new admin at the company, a shy girl form North Carolina, a girl from a small New Hampshire town, and some girl I started talking to at a bookstore.

    I’d certainly never have picked up their equivalents in a club or in college. But you’re right; in an urban, or college environment, even below-average American girls can be a pain in the ass.

    — Porn stars only exist on film, not the real world, so some of us are doomed.

    Is David the most likeable character on the internet, or what? Well, in any case, he has his moments 🙂

    — It’s a myth that hotter chicks cheat more.

    My point is that you want to marry a girl with the best personality possible, as long as she’s over your attractiveness threshold.

    Besides, and this is just my gut feeling talking – a hot girl is more trouble than she’s worth. By hot, I mean gorgeus face, perfect body.

    What’s better for LTRs is a girl who has all of the little particular things you like, rather than being an all-around knock-out. Whaever it is you like. Delicate hands, long silky black hair, and petite figure were always my things. I’d take a girl with those who is a 7.5, over a 9 who doesn’t.

    Like


  52. Dave from Hawaii:

    The married or long term relationship man that does this [keeps permanently running his best game] is least likely to suffer her “getting bored” or “falling out of love” with him, ending in divorce […] I got married young, and simply did not understand anything about game, or the benefits of assertive masculinity. I put my wife on a pedestal and spent 7 years or so of a very contentious, walking on egg-shell type of relationship that teetered towards divorce more than a few times. I discovered PUA/Game sites like this one a few years ago, and after a bit of reading on shit tests, and the subconscious mating desires of females, I began to “run game” on my wife. The transformation of our relationship is astounding.

    I believe your story, and I think you are correct. I’ll try to explain why I think we actually don’t contradict each other.

    Each man has a certain level of “natural” game that he plays fully unconsciously without even trying; this game is nothing but his natural behavior when he’s fully relaxed, laid back, and just enjoying himself without thinking. A few men have an excellent level of this natural game (either born “naturals” or those who have internalized their learned game exceptionally well), but for the vast majority of men, it is poor or mediocre. Furthermore, on top of the natural game, there is “conscious” game, where you make the mental effort to analyze and plan things and endeavor to act contrary to your misleading instincts. (I’m talking about knowledgeable conscious game here — when clueless guys “make the effort” to impress a girl, it usually makes them look only worse.)

    So, for example, if your natural game is good enough to attract and keep a 7 effortlessly, it may well be that with some extra effort to run conscious game, you could attract and keep an 8. Of course, natural game can be improved, but it takes time and effort, and once you reach the age when you want to settle down, it’s unlikely to change much during your marriage, unless it’s so bad that you’d greatly benefit even from internalizing some very basic insights. Thus, it will be a trade-off: will you settle for a less pretty girl that will adore you even if you’re honest, relaxed, and being yourself all the time? And if you aim as high as you can by running your conscious game at maximum, will you get tired of it eventually? Also, when running conscious game, it’s hard to escape a certain level of cynicism that can be very bad in the long run.

    In your case, I would guess that when you started your marriage, your level of natural game was just barely enough to attract your wife, and you had no knowledge of how to run conscious game. Thus, once you started practicing even a basic level of conscious game, she became far more attracted to you, since your total level of game went up from just barely enough to keep her around to a comfortably higher level. With your newly found self-confidence and satisfaction, your natural game has probably also improved somewhat. (From your description of the previous state of your marriage, I would guess that you were suffering from at least some harmful insecurity that has now thankfully disappeared.)

    In any case, I was glad to read your story. Such triumph of rational insight always makes me happy, especially since it’s a rare phenomenon outside of hard sciences.

    Like


  53. “What’s better for LTRs is a girl who has all of the little particular things you like, rather than being an all-around knock-out. Whaever it is you like. Delicate hands, long silky black hair, and petite figure were always my things. I’d take a girl with those who is a 7.5, over a 9 who doesn’t.”

    PA, I suspect that there are many men who do this, even those who claim “high standards”. They take, for example (depending on personal tastes), the slightly plump woman with the beautiful bosom and great smile, rather than the flighty perfect beauty they might have had a chance with. Or they choose a woman with a beautiful face but only an average figure.

    Choosing women in this way – with some thought given to compatibility too – appears to work well for many men, even some “players” I’ve known. When I say “work well” I mean that it leads them to happy marriages rather than miserable ones. Marriage or cohabitation between an ambitious PUA chosen only for his game and a beauty chosen entirely for her looks was well portrayed in the movie Scarface, allowing some license for being a film and for the drug milieu.

    Clio

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  54. on November 8, 2008 at 12:27 am Dave from Hawaii

    In your case, I would guess that when you started your marriage, your level of natural game was just barely enough to attract your wife, and you had no knowledge of how to run conscious game. Thus, once you started practicing even a basic level of conscious game, she became far more attracted to you, since your total level of game went up from just barely enough to keep her around to a comfortably higher level.

    In retrospect, I think you’ve nailed it.

    Like


  55. Clio 54 – well put. For some reason, I also pictue the stereotype of a hotshot Wall Street type who marries a stunner, only to have her leave him when things go bad.

    Like


  56. What’s better for LTRs is a girl who has all of the little particular things you like, rather than being an all-around knock-out.

    So you mean, the okay looking non-chubby white girl with an okay ass, C cups, and some nails is better than holding out for a non-existent porn star? Nah, that’s downright silly and crazy.

    Like


  57. I thought you like chubby girls.

    Like


  58. I thought you like chubby girls.

    Yeah, I still do, but I have a soft spot for petite thin girls.

    Like


  59. 54 – Clio, 56 – PA

    Remember that great Craigslist post??

    http://inrareform.wordpress.com/2007/10/10/craigslist-gold-digger/

    Like


  60. The non-date girlfriend is a good example. She’s 5’3 versus my 5’8 height, and she’s thin with tolerable ass and tits. She’s still not the chubby white girl with matching big tits and ass, and it feels weird when I hug her. So with a petite thin girl, I can tower over her and feel masculine, the downside is that the chubby girl will become fat and unmaintained.

    Now, any girl with A or B cups and no ass is simply useless for me, regardless of her race, beauty, or nails.

    Like


  61. A or B cups…. they drive me f’king crazy. Especially dancing around tauntingly, braless, under a sundress.

    Big ‘uns? Nah…. stretched skin, pancake nipples, veins, sagging…

    Like


  62. on November 8, 2008 at 2:40 am ironrailsironweights

    For some reason, I also pictue the stereotype of a hotshot Wall Street type who marries a stunner, only to have her leave him when things go bad.

    It looks there’ll be a lot of newly single stunners on the market.

    Peter

    Like


  63. Girl with A cups = not feminine
    Girl with D cups = very feminine 🙂

    Like


  64. May giant-orbed wenches visit you in your dream, then, DA.

    But if you keep talking all that pro-immigation nonsense, I’ll change that to flat-chested pixies; so watch it!

    Like


  65. But if you keep talking all that pro-immigation nonsense, I’ll change that to flat-chested pixies; so watch it!

    Chubby big-titted women regardless of race will be guaranteed entry into our great nation. They’ll replace the lazy, flat-chested native women.

    Like


  66. huh, that’s fucked up… i thought the vapors referred to having gas.

    who’d of thunk it?

    Like


  67. @40: “It’s only a full victory IF the other person cares and reacts to your rejection of retribution.”

    Well Roissy sobbed about it on his blog and all his sorority sisters here are holding his hand, so she blew him up.

    Like


  68. Alright, back on topic! See we’re still all here, man!

    And yes, women you ARE being judged *first* on your looks, *then* your personality. The damn near mythical hot chick who’s fun to hang with is the female “alpha”.

    Like


  69. Speaking of politics. The infighting in the McCain campagin begins in earnest:

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/07/mccain.palin/index.html

    roissy: Do you have a take on how to deal with a dumb chick like Palin? I’m sure we’ve all been in McCain’s shoe’s a time or two. Do you think McCain handled her correctly? Or did he go too beta?

    Like


  70. 2 “In every woman who is available, I see the same flaw and the same primitive selectivity that Roissy talks about. It practically erodes my real attachment to them.”
    === Careful not to get *too* negative, Tiger. This guy ended up killing himself after writing his famous book which is available free online if you dare…
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Weininger

    8 no namey “When out to dinner with my husband, I want him to restrain his glances to my intentionally exposed decolletage.”
    === I would have expected you to resent his glances at *other* womens’ goods…I’m puzzled as to why you wouldn’t want him showing open appreciation, especially a husband, who has seen more than what’s showing in the restaurant. See “window displays” below.

    10 “Always best to avoid formerly fat girls. Their neuroses are legend.”
    === As is their tendency to regain. Google Linda Ronstadt. She was a fat high school girl, a slim pop star, and now…

    18 Tim Price “women who intentionally expose their boys”
    === “Boys” is slang for testicles. Slang for breasts includes boobs, tits, hooters, knockers, ta-tas, love pillows, mamangas, milkjugs, Ta-Tas, bouncers, dual air bags, recliners, balongas, bazongas, bazookas, bazooms, cabbobbas, cajungas, guzzongas, zambonies, bongos, flotation devices, conversation pieces, crowd pleasers, ear warmers, joy buzzers, headlights, incentives, distraction devices, party favors, window displays, magic mountains, entertainment, chickies, mosquito bites, B1 and B2, booblets, boobies, pacifiers, lactation stations, lunch trays, breakfast-dinner-and-everything-in-between, Lefty & Righty, the twins, and dueling banjos.

    22 “Ever wonder why many extremely beautiful women lack in the intelligence dept? They never really had to develop a cognitive mind and there was always someone to think for them.”
    === Bleh. Estrogen is not a nootropic. There are many hot cosmetologists, but there are no hot cosmologists.

    32 Eleven Minutes “It’s a myth that hotter chicks cheat more.”
    === Cheating or not, it’s the attitude of entitlement that’s the problem, caused by all the extra attention such girls get from around age 3 onward.

    49 Vladimir “Furthermore, you’ll probably agree that the difficulty of establishing a really enjoyable relationship in which the girl truly and honestly adores you, so that you can actually lower your guard and relax a bit instead of making the constant effort to run your best game, rises exponentially with the quality of her looks.”
    === This is where Gannon used to hop in with a reference to the importance of getting them while they’re still very young. What happened to Gannon, anyway?

    50 Balanced “DA is tragic soul”
    === DA is annoying. I’ll bet I’m not the only long-time reader who skips over his entries.

    52 PA “Delicate hands, long silky black hair, and petite figure were always my things.”
    === You speaka my language. Google Yuko Ogura and Magibon.

    Like


  71. on November 8, 2008 at 6:27 am Steve Johnson

    “50 Balanced “DA is tragic soul”
    === DA is annoying. I’ll bet I’m not the only long-time reader who skips over his entries.”

    Yep, I skip them on two blogs. He’s just dull.

    Like


  72. James O —

    There are indeed examples of beautiful women who are intelligent and accomplished.

    Noted Beauty Hedy Lamarr co-invented frequency hopping (for use in radio guided torpedoes in WWII) which is the basis for cellphones today. She got the idea from playing chord changes on the piano.

    Danica McKellar wrote a math book for girls, and co-solved a math problem in her senior thesis (she majored in Math).

    Danica Patrick has finished: 12th, 12th, 7th, 7th, and 6th in IRL. Not too shabby — the race doesn’t care how hot you are.

    Unlike Anna Kournilova, Maria Sharapova has won Wimbledon. And a few other Major tournaments besides. Venus Williams is proof (along with Serena) that being pretty is no prerequisite to winning — you have to be good.

    It IS easy for beautiful women to coast, but a few refuse to do so. Generally, they are driven by goals outside men, and relationships.

    Like


  73. Beautiful people are actually more intelligent. This link shows multiple studies proving this. They also show that beautiful people are perceived to be smarter than plain ones, and that even children think that pretty teachers are smarter than ugly ones. The authors don’t mention this, but I think that better health and nutrition account in part for children of smart middle class parents growing up to be better looking than those of poorer working class parents.

    http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:cdHSNzxvfmkJ:www.lse.ac.uk/collections/MES/pdf/I2004.pdf+study+beautiful+people+are+more+intelligent&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

    Like


  74. Friedberg, 2006. I’m not saying all Germans are fat, there were plenty of thin women. I’m calling BS on the waxing rhapsodic over the supposed ultra-hotness of foreign women. Comparing midwestern wives with younger single women in big cities isn’t exactly enlightening. The European trend is to be more like the US. They have some catching up to do, but the trend is fatter.

    It’s irrelevant to me, I’m very happily married. Ironically, to a foreign woman who turned out to be the one for me. I’m just trying to head off some unicorn hunt. There isn’t a 10 out there waiting for you in some foreign land where all the women are at least 7s with matching personalities.

    The older you get, the more important personality becomes. Which is what I was told when I was younger and I ignored it . You will too – I’m convinced we’re biologically programmed to seek out fertile mates and well, mate. If you’re going to stick around, find somebody you like.

    Dave from Hawaii, excellent advice on applying game to keep your lady interested. That’s one reason I read this site. The other is because the comments are addicting. You have insecurity, lust, posturing, advice on manipulation, gamesmanship , despair and jealousy mixed with some very astute observations. Intellectual porn.

    Like


  75. on November 8, 2008 at 4:05 pm ironrailsironweights

    Slang for breasts includes … the twins

    Interesting, I’ve always understood the twins to mean the ass cheeks, as in the expression “take it in the twins.”

    Peter

    Like


  76. @30

    Vladimir – I didn’t want to, just had to answer your little rant this morning.

    You’ve “been to Germany”. OK, bro, I’ve clocked thousands of hours traveling around Germany on the DeutscheBahn. I think that’s the best way to really see the German people, as in Germany just about EVERYONE travels on the DB at some point… business executives, high school students, college hipster types, young couples, elderly couples, backpackers.

    Seriously, dude, how much *time* have you spent in Germany, or are you just judging Germans by a few Germans whom you happen to meet outside Germany, and by a few brief trips there?

    I’ll grant that maybe I was a little bit biased in saying that German women are “absolutely beautiful”. That was glittering generality, a blanket statement. German women definitely, overall, have a distinct “look”, and I am partial to the German look.

    Look, we’re *all* the products of our upbringing. All of our opinions and tastes are molded by the culture and social environment in which we grew up. Our views of other cultures are colored by the culture in which we grew up, got educated, and live. For disclosure, I was born in Italy, grew up mostly in the USA and for a while in Switzerland, and have lived also on the island of Puerto Rico (a US territory).

    Can I ask where you were born, in what culture you grew up

    Judging by your moniker here, you may hail from Russia or Ukraine. (On the other hand maybe your nickname has nothing to do with your ethnic background.)

    The points you make about German social life are valid, with a *big* caveat. Like when you said:

    “Either your whole post is sarcastic or we’re living in parallel universes. If you’re looking for places where the traditional values you describe are dead and buried, Germany will be near the top of the list. Just look at some basic statistics about German marriage and fertility rates; they’re all rock bottom. Google “Zeugungsstreik” if you can read German.”

    Indeed, very true. But I wasn’t talking about fertility rates.
    It’s well-known that Germany isn’t the only country in Western Europe, or in the world, with low fertility rates. Italy and Spain have notoriously low fertility rates, lower than Germany’s. Greece’s fertility rate has plummeted. Bulgaria’s is one of the lowest in the world. As is Japan’s. Russia’s and Ukraine’s are quite low. Even Mexico’s has declined quite a bit recently.

    I was referring not to *fertility rates* then, but to the way German women see themselves, particularly if they get married and *maybe* decide to have children in the process!

    After all, people in Germany still do get married, and Germans (I’m not talking about Turkish or Algerian or Pakistani immigrants, I mean Germans of the original breed) still actually have children. On any Saturday morning in Frankfurt on Kaiserstrasse, you can still see blue-eyed German women pushing baby-strollers around. There are still actually shops that sell baby bottles and baby clothes! *Gasp!!!*

    Please, for a second, try to separate the notions of “fertility” and “gender roles” in your mind. The two are very much related, but one doesn’t necessarily drive the other 100%. It is possible for fertility rates to go down, while traditional gender roles (outside of motherhood) remain largely intact.

    Take Susan Stern’s book, “These Strange German Ways”, copyright 2000 by Atlantik-Brucke. I bought this book a few years ago at Hugendubel in an attempt to better understand Germany.

    She quotes Gordon Craig, in his book “The Germans”:

    “The subordination of women has ancient roots in Germany and was sanctified by custom, religion and law . . . (In the 19th century) what was unique to Germany was that he subordination of women was more stubborn and more protracted than in the advanced Western countries.”

    Remember the old concept of “Kinder, Kuche and Kirche”?

    Stern goes on to say that the women of Germany have it very good “on paper”, since equal rights are enshrined in the “Basic Law”, and in all other laws of the country. German women are “not persecuted or downtrodden”.

    But day-to-day attitudes are quite another thing. Here is a telling quote from Stern:

    “Germany means well with its women, but the gut feeling (on the part of both sexes) that whatever her legal rights, a woman’s top priority *should* be her family, still prevails. … women in Germany are remarkably accepting of their fate and indeed, tacitly support practices and policies which keep them firmly in their place — at home. For example: most German schools have no fixed hours, no midday meals and no classes in the afternoon. Children can be sent home for whatever reason , hot weather, for example, and at any time if classes are cancelled because the teacher is sick, on a school outing, at a meeting or otherwise indisposed … And yet, few mothers are willing to go to the barricades to change this situation.”

    Then she asks “the all-important question”: “Do German women really want to be equal in those domains traditionally considered male, i.e., the money-making world? The answer seems to be ‘not really’. Women with children tend to opt for the so-called Three-Phase-Model: They drop out of the workforce when they have their first child, spend the next ten years or so bringing up their offspring, and then return to h ejob market on a part-time basis.”

    She goes on for page after page, chapter after chapter, discussing German gender roles, especially in the workforce, and how the world of business in Germany is male-dominated to an extent that would actually be considered “extreme” in the US, especially by US feminists.

    All of these phenomena are *very* palpable for me when I’m in Germany and doing business there, and in fact, while the book is not only about gender issues (it’s about modern German culture generally) I bought this book specifically because I wanted to understand this particular aspect of German culture, which for me — having grown up mostly in the USA — was fascinating.

    Now, I don’t know where you grew up, Vladimir. Again, by your name, perhaps you grew up in Russia or Ukraine, or somewhere in the former USSR? (I don’t want to make any snap judgments, but that’s as good a guess as any). Perhaps we see Germans differently because we are viewing the country and the culture from different prisms? I from the so-called “progressive” USA, with its extreme feminism that inculcates women — from their time in diapers – with the notion that not only can you do anything a man can do, you must, and in fact you are *just like a man* in every way, save the fact that you have a vagina and a uterus!

    If you grew up in Eastern Europe or Russia, or one of the former Soviet republics, I think you will have a cultural viewpoint skewed the *other* way, i.e., viewed from an extremely traditional, patriarchal society, in which Germany actually looks like the model of cutting-edge feminism, with its universal contraception, sex education, Beate Uhse “sex shops” in every major downtown, etc.

    Have you ever heard of the Indian story of “The Elephant and the Blind Men”? Maybe we are two “blind men” (i.e., non-Germans) examining Germany by touching different parts of the big elephant, and coming up with two completely different conclusions about the place.

    But I’ve spent enough time there to have ferreted out many of the fundamental cultural differences between Germany and the USA, and if you scratch beneath surface superficialities, like Starbucks and iPods, then you’ll see they are there, they persist, and they are considerable.

    Like


  77. @74: I looked at the link. Interesting paper. Note that the paper is just a logical proof based on 4 assumptions.

    The most interesting assumption in the paper: Intelligent “provider betas” are the ones who more often actually impregnate beautiful women, which creates smarter, better-looking kids. This is a crucial assumption in the paper.

    Like


  78. @69: “And yes, women you ARE being judged *first* on your looks, *then* your personality. The damn near mythical hot chick who’s fun to hang with is the female “alpha”.”

    And here’s the ironic part: The woman who is good looking and is fun to hang with has spent more time developing her personality.

    That means she values personality more, and is not going to want the men like Roissy (and you) with “looks first” preferences.

    And by your own admission, as a female alpha, she can afford to eliminate the guys with those preferences.

    The formerly bigger chick who made Roissy her bitch developed a meta-preference function over men, where she chooses men based on their preferences. And Roissy, like most men, and especially most men here, failed to make the cut. He just ain’t good enough for her, and she demonstrated her higher value and his lower value. QED.

    Like


  79. To put it in terms you all can understand: For girls with a great personality to go along with hotness, Roissy’s just a fat chick.

    Like


  80. Addendum: And strictly speaking, we should talk about “birth rates” not “fertility rates”. Birth rate is the correct nomenclature, I think, particularly in light of contraception.

    “Fertility rate” implies something to do with women’s physiological ability to conceive and give birth. When one is high, the other is usually high, but a population’s low fertility rate will cause a low birth rate, whereas birth rate cannot affect fertility rate.

    Like


  81. @77

    I am really loving all this talk about Germany, especially the natural role of her subordinate women. Eva would be proud!

    Cmon, the rest of the male world would like nothing better than an endless supply of blond haired blue eyed women. Lets make it happen people!!!

    Das gefallt mir!!!

    Deustchland uber alles!!! (The third time is the charm you know…).

    Like


  82. “you are *just like a man* in every way, save the fact that you have a vagina and a uterus!”

    A lot of guys would love a woman like that, e.g. the episode of Seinfeld where George dates a woman who looks like Jerry and realizes that he wants a sexualized version of his best bud.

    Like


  83. Gannon is still alive and well. I’m working full time now, so I don’t have much time. Joe T is right; German women are generaly attractive and much more content with being Hausfrauen than their US counterparts: there is a reason why Hitler opposed vehemently using women in the Wehrmacht, unlike the Soviets, even when he was beginning to lose the war. And German people are thinner than their British and American counterparts, even if caricature suggets otherwise. Finally, Gannon loves teen girls. I would much rather make love to a plumb chubby 16 year old woman than to a 30 year old thin has been.

    Like


  84. @8 anony

    wow. do you yourself and what you just wrote seriously? I can’t tell if this is tongue in cheek or serious. knowing females, I gather to think you’re being serious.

    Like


  85. 32 11minutes:

    It’s a myth that hotter chicks cheat more.

    It’s even a myth that they have more sex.

    Regarding your second point, I believe El Guapo has something to say about that.

    Paging El Guapo…

    Like


  86. 48 Der Fuehrer:

    I enjoy hearing how beautiful my German women are! Someday I will be back!

    LOL

    Der Fuehrer > Large Hadron Collider

    Like


  87. 52 PA:

    Delicate hands, long silky black hair, and petite figure were always my things.

    Again, great minds think alike.

    Like


  88. I’ve clocked thousands of hours traveling around Germany on the DeutscheBahn

    I wish I could do that. 🙂

    Like


  89. 53 Vladamir:

    Thus, it will be a trade-off: will you settle for a less pretty girl that will adore you even if you’re honest, relaxed, and being yourself all the time? And if you aim as high as you can by running your conscious game at maximum, will you get tired of it eventually? Also, when running conscious game, it’s hard to escape a certain level of cynicism that can be very bad in the long run.

    A.K.A. Tupac’s Wager

    😦

    Like


  90. 59 David Alexander:

    I thought you like chubby girls.

    Yeah, I still do, but I have a soft spot for petite thin girls.

    Focus on the petite girls as you are a small man yourself. That way, you maintain the sexual dimorphism nature requires.

    You will lose interest in the chubby girls once you man up, as they are most likely a mother-substitute for you.

    Like


  91. 62 PA:

    A or B cups…. they drive me f’king crazy. Especially dancing around tauntingly, braless, under a sundress.

    Goddamit PA! You better not be sarging where I sarge. 😡

    Now…ASS on the other hand…

    Like


  92. 73 whiskey:

    Noted Beauty Hedy Lamarr co-invented frequency hopping (for use in radio guided torpedoes in WWII)

    Hedy Lamar can guide my torpedo ANY day…

    Like


  93. You will lose interest in the chubby girls once you man up, as they are most likely a mother-substitute for you.

    chubby white girl = white girl with ass and tits
    thin white girl = fail

    That way, you maintain the sexual dimorphism nature requires.

    Explain?

    Like


  94. 83 hello:

    “you are *just like a man* in every way, save the fact that you have a vagina and a uterus!”

    A lot of guys would love a woman like that, e.g. the episode of Seinfeld where George dates a woman who looks like Jerry and realizes that he wants a sexualized version of his best bud.

    Only guys with latent homosexual tendencies.

    I like my women to be women.

    More trainable that way.

    Like


  95. Hey DA, is there a reason you’re not interested in black women? I have an Asian friend who’s not into Asian women and he claims it’s because all the girls he grew up around were white and that most guys end up forming their tastes by the girls they grew up around. I knew a black man who didn’t like black women because of past experiences with strident black women but he stll still found black women physically attractive.

    Like


  96. Joe T.,

    Seriously, dude, how much *time* have you spent in Germany, or are you just judging Germans by a few Germans whom you happen to meet outside Germany, and by a few brief trips there?

    Actually, I spent quite a bit of time in Germany in the 1990s. All my stays there would probably add up to 4-5 months. Additionally, I’ve met quite a few Germans in various other countries. Admittedly, I haven’t traveled much around Germany; I mostly stayed in a small town in Wuerttemberg where my relatives lived. Also, I was still a teenager back then, so obviously, I wasn’t in a position to gain a mature insight into German society. Still, when it comes to German women, I’ve definitely seen a large and representative sample of what they look like.

    German women definitely, overall, have a distinct “look”, and I am partial to the German look.

    Well, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree about this. I agree that there are some German women with a strikingly beautiful and recognizably German look, but honestly, I’ve seen very few of them in real life.

    Can I ask where you were born, in what culture you grew up Judging by your moniker here, you may hail from Russia or Ukraine. (On the other hand maybe your nickname has nothing to do with your ethnic background.)

    Actually, the name is common in all Slavic-speaking countries (with minor local variations in spelling and pronunciation). I’m from former Yugoslavia, currently living in Canada.

    I was referring not to *fertility rates* then, but to the way German women see themselves, particularly if they get married and *maybe* decide to have children in the process! […]

    Perhaps we see Germans differently because we are viewing the country and the culture from different prisms? I from the so-called “progressive” USA, with its extreme feminism that inculcates women — from their time in diapers – with the notion that not only can you do anything a man can do, you must, and in fact you are *just like a man* in every way, save the fact that you have a vagina and a uterus!

    Thanks for the long and detailed post. I now understand much better what you mean, and I agree with a lot of what you write. Still, I think one important fact should be added: German society is far more uniform than American culturally and ideologically. I’d say that even the East/West cultural divide in Germany doesn’t run nearly as deep as the current cultural and ideological one in the U.S. (often called “red/blue”, even though it’s more complex than that). You’ll probably agree that contrasts between, say, New York City and Boise are far greater than between any two German cities. Thus, what you write is probably true if we compare Germany with the more “progressive” areas and social groups in the U.S. But on the other hand, there is still a significant part of the U.S. population that sticks to traditional family/gender roles in every respect far more than Germans.

    Furthermore, I’m puzzled by the way you dismissed the relevance of the modern European hedonistic, sexually liberal culture (what you described as “universal contraception, sex education, Beate Uhse ‘sex shops’ in every major downtown”). It seems pretty obvious to me that such an environment, being much more prevalent in Europe than in North America, leads many more European (including German) women to opt out of their, as you call it, “natural role to care for the husband and raise the family”. To borrow another phrase of yours, whatever their skills, abilities, and talents in this regard might be, they’ll pass on any opportunity to deploy them.

    Otherwise, I definitely agree that feminism and other PC/”progressive” values are pushed in a far more extremist, aggressive, and intolerant way in North America than in Europe. Feminists of the hateful, hysterical, all-men-are-rapists sort are far less numerous in Europe (in fact, radical feminism is mostly an American export outside the U.S.), and your characterization is true even when it comes to mainstream feminism in Europe and America. I have my theories on why this is so, but it’s a very complex topic, about which a whole book could be written.

    Like


  97. @98

    Vladimir – OK, now I can see where you’re coming from better.

    I think the difference between gender roles in Germany compared with the USA (or Canada, for that matter) can be boiled down to this:

    In North America, when a young woman gets married and announces she will be starting a family, it is now *assumed* that she will continue working, and perhaps take a *minimal* amount of time off for caring for the newborn infant, maybe a few months.

    Every action, every decision, every academic step, and every career move taken by the average young, white woman in the US, before getting married, is predicated on the idea that she will pursue a career as aggressively as any male her age, and that, if she should marry and start a family, that career will only be interrupted by child care in the mildest ways possible.

    This is the *default* mindset for the women of the USA.

    In Germany (and to varying degrees, most of continental Europe, except perhaps for Scandinavia), the default mindset is a bit different.

    In Germany, a woman may make many of the same types of academic and career choices before marriage, but it is *assumed* (both by the woman and by the larger society) that once she gets married, the gender role divide between the woman and her husband will be quite clear.

    The *default* assumption in Germany is that the woman will stay home and raise her children, interrupting any career she may have, or dramatically curtailing it.

    True, many young German women do not do this, and take the daycare route, continuing their careers unabated after giving birth.

    But the societal *assumption* is still that a young mother will stay home and care for her young children.

    Whereas in the USA, to tell a young woman with a career of any kind, that her first priority as a new mother should be staying home and taking care of her children, would be considered a gross affront, both to the woman, and to all women. Feminists would go ballistic at such an suggestion, even if made in the most oblique and theoretical way.

    The same is generally true in the UK, Canada, and just about any Anglo-Saxon country, which is why I always point to the divide between Anglo-Saxon capitalism and continental European capitalism on this blog, and assert that in every way, Eurocapitalism is far superior.

    (I’m leaving out the “ultra-PC” socialist cultures of Scandinavia in the “Eurocapitalist” rubric, because they have a completely different system and mindset, which basically tells the entire population, “You have no absolute duty to work. Work is optional for both men and women, and the state will always be there for social needs if you decide to opt out of the workforce for practically any reason.” Perhaps a bit of an exaggeration, but not really a huge one. In those societies, the point of who stays home to take care of the children — father or mother or both or neither — becomes kind of moot.)

    I’ve said it before here, that I think that Anglo-Saxon “turbo-capitalism” has played a far greater role in creating ultracompetitive, man-hating, career-obsessed women, than the PC/liberal/feminism axis. The latter is vastly overrated in terms of its actual power and impact on society.

    What has really driven the upending and demolition of gender roles in work and family in North America is not a bunch of powerless PC women’s studies professors writing diatribes about the evils of patriarchy from their ivory tower redoubts.

    What has propelled this gender-role revolution in the US since the 70s, is actually the Republican investor class, the laissez-faire capitalists, the CEOs, extreme free-market economics, and Wall Street economic libertarianism, which realized that female labor is cheaper and more docile than male labor, and has systematically promoted the hiring of women into larger and larger swaths of the workforce.

    They’ve only used radical feminists as the scapegoats for these changes, and have actually encouraged and financed the radical feminist agenda underhandedly.

    If you look at the countries where radical feminism doesn’t have the foothold it does in the US and other anglophone countries, it coincides well with the list of industrial countries where there’s a bigger state role in the economy, where governments pay a lot more attention to fostering and maintaining social safety nets, and where societies are more cohesive and communitarian. Gender roles — including the role of women as family caregivers — are still respected and held as sacrosanct, even despite low birth rates.

    Like


  98. Joe T,
    You’re so right. The stuff that’s attributed to feminism could only be plausible to people who’ve never read any feminist literature. I’m not a feminist, btw, just someone with intolerance for sophistry

    Like


  99. ….It’s even a myth that they have more sex.

    Regarding your second point, I believe El Guapo has something to say about that.

    Paging El Guapo…

    Only that my experience doesn’t jive with the literature.

    IMHO the literature single-digit lover stuff is just pure BS.

    I got so flamed the last time for that stance, I took a vacation from the blog and just enjoyed the fucking reality out there. [As an aside guys, anyone reading this blog not getting laid — for pete sake — invest a couple thousand bucks and LEARN how-to get some game.] As a general rule, when I get the beautiful woman to admit the real number of lovers, it’s typically in double digits easy.

    Allowing for age, it means that many beautiful women are as wonderfully promiscuous as us males, and that the only thing preventing even higher intercourse rates is that they do go home alone more often than not because most men don’t qualify. E.g. We need more men with game in the game.

    So we have the paradox of the oft-fantasized male desired sluttiness level but insufficient number of competent males to execute.

    Well, time to go play with the Latin gattinas…. au revoir~

    Like


  100. on November 9, 2008 at 1:58 am ironrailsironweights

    I like my women to be women.

    With thick, rich, luxuriant bushes, overflowing with magnificent aromas and flavors. Yum!

    Peter

    Like


  101. I will only say this on all the so deemed “fat chick” situations I’ve ever known.

    1) There is a definite look to once-fat chicks whether one is cognizant of their prior fattiness or not. It is similar to that “look” of longtime street walkers and porn actresses that, trades long past, somehow still lingers in their faces and swagger. Whether that deters from actual present day attractiveness or not is, I suppose, a personal matter. As for me, If I spot that (those) looks – I’m not impressed. Cruel a point as it is, the only way for a woman to lose weight is to not to gain it in the first place.

    2) Lots of lost fat means bizarre excess skin conditions which is unattractive if not outright repulsive. Once again, an entire conversation on fat chicks that somehow skips over this elephant in the room. Weird.

    3) I do believe fat chicks have more sex than good or average looking women. Every fat chick I have known has been ultra-responsive to male attention to the point of fabricating entire relationship-level analysis to even minor interactions with guys. With no sense of the real bar, they fall in bed with men much more easily and do, in my opinion, suffer emotionally and sometimes even physically for it.

    4) Related to the above, fat chicks can have as much sex as they want. I never knew a fat chick that couldn’t find sexual relief from a man if she wanted it any day of the week. Quite naturally of course they devalue that since “real” sex for a woman, fat or not, is a “relationship”. And come morning, the only relationship a guy who just spent the night with a fat chick wants, is one with the nearest exit door.

    5) Marrying a women who becomes fat while in the marriage is okay in my opinion since marriage is supposed to be about other things that suffice as relationship glue and after X years together I doubt I’d even notice. Still, even in my pathetic omega or lesser beta state of today, I still have a hard time even considering settling down with one who is fat to begin with. With all the crap a woman potentially brings to one’s life, I’ve always needed her to be cute/pretty/sexy enough to deal with that.

    My two cents.

    Like


  102. If anyone’s curious, I collected a bunch of passages from the loony days of ’70s feminism. Have a look. Here are some more memories of the era. It really did get as bad as people say it did.

    Like


  103. 73 Whiskey
    === Straw man, dude. I didn’t say intelligent women are never attractive. I said estrogen is not a nootropic; the more girly a girl is, the less she can excel at engineering-type stuff, due to the wiring of a brain that has been exposed to a lot of estrogen. That there are a lot of hot cosmetologists is self-evident. But show me a link to even one cosmologist or nuclear physicist who is a cutie with big eyes, small nose, and small chin (or who is deep black, to open a stinking old can of worms). Ain’t any. The amount of estrogen in the womb required to produce big eyes and a small chin and small nose also wires the brain to be too emotional/intuitive for hard-core abstract reasoning.

    92 Tupac Chopra “Focus on the petite girls as you are a small man yourself. That way, you maintain the sexual dimorphism nature requires.”
    === Of course there are a lot of smaller men who *want* little ladies for precisely the reason you state, but I think it’s misguided to *advise* small men to seek out such women, because hot little ladies seldom accept small men. Hot little ladies are desired by most men, so those girls have options, and they opt for sexy (big, or at least non-small) men. If anyone thinks I’m mistaken, please link to couples (not including Asians) consisting of a small woman with a small man. Unless the girl is a 5 or less, it’s rare.

    When small men are able to hook up at all, it’s almost always to women who weigh as much or more than they do (again, excepting Asians).

    Like


  104. on November 9, 2008 at 5:22 pm ironrailsironweights

    Steve Sailer has a short but interesting post on how excessive debt may be hurting some women’s chances at marriage: Bachelorettes in debt.

    Peter

    Like


  105. Joe T.,

    Yes, your basic observations about cultural attitudes are true, but I still think the case you’re making is somewhat stretched and one-sided. I agree that American and other Anglosphere women are far more aggressively career-minded and that you’ll provoke a much more harsh hostility in America than in Europe if you suggest that a woman should perhaps downscale her career in favor of raising children. However, you’re forgetting about two important facts:

    (1) Despite all the protestations to the contrary, American women still downscale their careers in practice at least somewhat when they decide to have kids. Yes, everyone says (or dares not dispute) that this shouldn’t happen in theory, but it still happens, and there is still a silent assumption that it will happen. I mean, it wouldn’t be physically possible for anyone to have kids if it weren’t so. Thus, you have to take into account that people in practice don’t live up to what the social standards require from them.

    Furthermore, in North America, there are still significant parts of society where full-blown stay at home motherhood is socially accepted. In fact, in the last couple of years, there has been a lot of mainstream media attention about highly educated American women who opt out of the labor force (see e.g. here or here). So, there are large exceptions to the general American trends you mention.

    (2) Even more importantly, a far greater percentage of people in Europe, and especially Germany, don’t want to have a family at all.

    In North America, perpetual bachelorhood/spinsterhood or principled refusal to have any kids once married still carries some social stigma. On the contrary, in Germany it’s become a fully acceptable and widely practiced lifestyle choice. According to this study, 21% of childless German women of fertile ages categorically state that they don’t want any kids ever, period. Only 52% of them state that they would definitely want them at some point in the future. For men, these figures are even more depressing – 24% vs. 34%. When asked about reasons, they’re basically saying that it’s too much hassle and there’s more fun stuff to do in life.

    Even those Germans who want kids want one or perhaps two; nowadays it’s actually large — even moderately large — families that provoke social stigma there. When I first came to Canada — I had seen only Europe before that — one of the biggest surprises was seeing plenty of respectable middle- and upper middle-class people with 3-4 children, as well as meeting classy, well-educated, Canadian-born girls who sincerely want to have 3-4 kids. I’m not saying this is prevalent or typical, but the point is that unlike in Europe, such people actually exist and aren’t considered weirdos.

    So, of what use are the advantages of German culture and social system you’re talking about, when this same system has spawned a generation of people with such attitudes towards family and children?

    As for your more general remarks about Anglo-Saxon vs. European social model, I’d rather not get into this discussion, since we’ll just end up in an endless political debate for which this blog is definitely a wrong place.

    Like


  106. No man wants to be made to feel guilty for his masculine desire.

    You felt guilty? That’s awful. Maybe you should see someone about that.

    Like


  107. @107

    Vladimir – I think in North America, we are all marketed to death by the consumer-industrial complex, which dictates to women that it is desirable to “have it all” — i.e., you *must* aspire to *both* the career *and* the family.

    In no other country are people marketed to more pervasively than in America. This has made the US (and probably Canada) much more status-obsessed than Europe, and this is so deeply-ingrained in our culture that we sometimes forget it’s impact.

    The whole American “Supermom” myth was created by the marketing industry so they could sell more stuff to women. Career fashions for the office, PLUS the $50,000 wedding (much more than that among DC-area yuppies these days, I imagine), PLUS maternity clothes, PLUS all the baby paraphenalia.

    So, it’s not either-or in the US, the way it largely is in Europe. Ask the average young career-obsessed 20-something girl in a city like DC, and she’ll still tell you she’s certain she wants the marriage and the kids. She just doesn’t know when, and she’ll give you a deadly look if you suggest she should begin the process anytime soon.

    Germany is by no means the only country in Europe where a lot of young people affirmatively opt out of the marriage and family thing.

    While the typical young single American woman will almost never say she doesn’t want a family, she’ll still pursue the career full throttle, while dating around for years and being ultra-choosy about finding Mr. Right. Still, she’ll never openly abandon the idea of marriage and kids, and indeed, that is what she really wants, deep down.

    In Europe, people are more honest with themselves, and if they opt out of marriage and family, they’ll tell you straight up that’s what they’re doing, and give you credible reasons for it. Plus, underlying these decisions is usually a complicated set of economic rationales, having to do with the way European social benefits and the job market is structured.

    For the average young, single person in most western European countries, the standard of living is VERY high. I would venture that you could easily say that the *average* young, white European has it much, much better than the *average* young, white American, both in terms of material abundance, lifestyle, health care and social services, debt-free academic opportunities, and leisure opportunities.

    Before you goddam flag-waving American jingoists out there get all up in my face that I’m dissing America, I will put a big caveat on this. The job market in the USA is better for young people, *simply* because it is more of a real, open, meritocratic “job market”, rather than a closed, somewhat shadowy network of patronage and family or political hook-ups, which traditionally characterizes the European job market.

    But apart from that, *if* you happen to have a decent job in Western Europe and are single and in your 20s or 30s, you are generally much better off than your American counterpart. First off, your job is much more stable — and I won’t get into all the reasons for that. Second, you probably have from 3-6 weeks (depending on the country) of *guaranteed* paid vacation every year. NOT some kind of slick, bait-and-switch American-style BS that yeah, you can take off when you want, and *maybe* your job will still be there when you get back. NOT some kind of flex-time or other crap invented in the US. Real, paid vacation time, guaranteed by the country’s national laws.

    (N.B.: The US is the *only* country in the industrialized West that does not have a national law guaranteeing paid vacation time. In the US, *zero* hours of paid vacation time are guaranteed, thanks to living in the country with the most powerful business lobbies on the planet.)

    Only problem is that in Europe, once you marry up and start having babies, that glorious free, leisure-filled lifestyle can go into the shitter. Most European young people have gotten so spoiled and so accustomed to living so well, that they fear that a family will saddle them with additional, unwanted responsibilities and that ideal lifestyle may drop off a cliff.

    Again, this is somewhat of a generalization, but it’s based on basic truths.

    Another thing is that if you strip away all the minorities in the US, especially the Hispanics and 1st or 2nd generation immigrants of every stripe, and the African-American population and other longstanding minorities, plus the rural white population, the birth rates of the urban, educated white population is as low as whites all over Europe.

    What Western Europe doesn’t have is deep pockets of rural, uneducated, religious white people like the US does. And, until recently, W. Europe still didn’t have enough immigrants to really skew the birth rate numbers.

    Like


  108. “One of my fat friends has stated that fat women in the United States have no excuse to look hideous when there’s Lane Bryant and Torrid”

    Clothes for women who should be in the gym and not stuffing themselves. No excuse indeed…

    Like


  109. James O.:

    I didn’t say intelligent women are never attractive. I said estrogen is not a nootropic; the more girly a girl is, the less she can excel at engineering-type stuff, due to the wiring of a brain that has been exposed to a lot of estrogen.

    Do you actually have some references to back up that claim?

    That there are a lot of hot cosmetologists is self-evident. But show me a link to even one cosmologist or nuclear physicist who is a cutie with big eyes, small nose, and small chin (or who is deep black, to open a stinking old can of worms). Ain’t any. The amount of estrogen in the womb required to produce big eyes and a small chin and small nose also wires the brain to be too emotional/intuitive for hard-core abstract reasoning.

    I’m definitely not the one to always insist on PC theories and explanations, but I think you’re drawing some invalid conclusions here. There aren’t that many cuties with big eyes and small noses among women in the first place, so obviously, there’s going to be only a minuscule number of them among the few women who choose careers in engineering and hard sciences. I’ve met some examples of this type of women who are scientists and engineers, especially in math, which requires more hard-core abstract reasoning than anything. In fact, it’s enough to google for some pictures of female mathematicians to disprove your claim (at least in the sweeping general form in which you put it).

    Of course, for all I know, there might be some validity to what you’re claiming. However, it would certainly require more proof than your vague remarks and empirically unsupportable generalizations. You don’t have to be politically correct to notice that Occam’s razor requires you to first consider alternative theories about the possible social incentives that might be drawing cute girls away from hard sciences.

    As a side note, my own personal observations suggest that biological differences in abstract reasoning abilities among humans are usually way overrated. Obviously, you can’t make a Newton, von Neumann, or Kasparov out of anyone, but with proper training, almost anyone could become a typical Ph.D.-level hard scientist or chess grandmaster. It’s only a matter of having enough time and incentives for the necessary hard work. Stereotypical nerdy guys end up manning science and engineering not because they are biologically more talented, but because their opportunity cost for the necessary hard work is low, and thus have more time and incentives to do it.

    Like


  110. In North America, perpetual bachelorhood/spinsterhood or principled refusal to have any kids once married still carries some social stigma. On the contrary, in Germany it’s become a fully acceptable and widely practiced lifestyle choice.

    US surveys tend to have a stronger bias towards rural areas. When the same surveys are limited to urban areas, opinion polls often are very close to European results.

    Like


  111. BTW, Vladimir, you said a young couple in W. Europe with 3-4 kids would be “considered weirdos”.

    All I know is that my 20- and 30-something married friends in W. Europe are actually *more* fertile than the white, professional friends of corresponding age I had for all the years I lived in the DC area.

    While living in NoVA and working on Capitol Hill, I had a huge group of friends around the entire Capital area, and very few of them were on the verge of marriage, much less actually married and planning families. In fact, I had lots of white male friends in their late 20s and early-mid 30s who couldn’t even get a decent date with a girl who might be considered a remotely acceptable prospect for marriage, much less actually be in the marriage market or married.

    What I notice when I compare Milan to DC, is that it seems to be the exact opposite there. You want to get married, you hang around long enough and there are more opportunities than you can shake a stick at. You want to be a player until well into your 40s, that opportunity is there, too.

    In DC, there was such a status-obsession thing going on that if you weren’t part of a couple, you were somehow a loser, but few people I was friends with were actually part of a real couple, and fewer were anywhere near getting married or starting families.

    Like


  112. To Vladimir and James O. who are fighting about whether there are any “hot cosmologists”….

    I’m not into cosmology or quantum physics by any means, but I *do* know there is at least one professional Ph.D cosmologist who is both a hot woman, and also an author who’s written some kind of popular nonfiction book (a la Hawking) about her work.

    An friend of mine showed me her book in a bar about a year ago, and yes, she was definitely hot (and blonde, and pretty young). I believe her name is Susan or Suzanne something-or-other.

    He was reading the book just because he was dazzled by the fact that she was a legitimately hot cosmologist.

    Like


  113. I don’t know about cosmologists, but among software and hardware engineers, women (regardless of hotness) are quite rare and are generally Asian. It’s extraordinarily rare to see a hot white girl. (I personally don’t like Asian girls, so for me, you could amend that statement by striking the word “white.”)

    I do not exaggerate when I speak of a 99% male workplace among the engineers. You’ll have women in program management, marketing, HR, finance, etc., but almost never the engineers.

    Like


  114. Joe t- The birth rate is low amongst middle and upper class African-Americans as well. Who wants to be saddled with children when you can enjoy life in a way that most people could not 100 years ago.

    Like


  115. Joe T.,

    I mostly agree with you wrote in your last comment. In particular:

    For the average young, single person in most western European countries, the standard of living is VERY high. I would venture that you could easily say that the *average* young, white European has it much, much better than the *average* young, white American, both in terms of material abundance, lifestyle, health care and social services, debt-free academic opportunities, and leisure opportunities. Before you goddam flag-waving American jingoists out there get all up in my face that I’m dissing America, I will put a big caveat on this. […]

    In fact, I’d say that your caveats are largely unnecessary, because this factor is largely independent of wealth. The really important thing here are simply the opportunities of young people to live a fun and laid back lifestyle, and as soon as a country advances beyond the level where people must toil to barely survive and have children to get free labor and old-age security, these opportunities don’t depend much on the average wealth and income. To have fun when you’re young, you need only: (1) the time and inclination to do so, and (2) the company of other people who have the same. As soon as these conditions exist, your disposable income doesn’t really matter. With the right crowd, a no-budget bring-your-own-booze party will be more fun than going out to an exclusive nightclub, and a sleeping bag vacation will be more memorable than staying in a five-star hotel.

    This is indeed a fundamental difference between North America and Europe (including Eastern Europe). On average, young Europeans have much more fun than young Americans, and this is not because their disposable income is larger — it’s not, especially in Eastern Europe — but because Europeans feel far less pressure to start working hard early, they have much more free time, and they mostly live in urban environments that are socially liberal and far more conductive to informal socializing than North American suburbia (and also the sorry excuse for “urban” environments of the sort that is prevalent in the U.S., with a handful of exceptions like NYC). Even when they get some hard-deserved free time, Americans and Canadians tend to blow their money on ridiculous status posturing instead of relaxing and enjoying some actual fun that could be had for far cheaper. (Are those people paying $500 bills for bottle service in nightclubs having more fun than I did in my favorite dive bars back in the day? I highly doubt it.)

    So yes, in Europe, the opportunity cost of starting a family is much higher. This is especially true for Eastern European countries, which are much poorer than either Western Europe or North America, and where it’s much more difficult to make ends meet once you start a family. (Thus, unsurprisingly, these countries are even worse demographic basket cases than Western Europe.)

    And this is where our initial disagreement actually sprang from. People have to be pressured or incentivized in some way to start a family and have children, and in modern society, the old economic incentives to do so (free labor, old age security) have disappeared. What remains is only the social pressure and personal satisfaction, but these incentives are countered by the fact that having children means forsaking many more years of fun. What I wanted to emphasize is that on average, American society maintains more powerful mechanisms to incentivize people to start families — the social pressure is somewhat stronger, and the opportunity cost is far smaller (because of much less opportunity to have fun instead). In this regard, North America is more similar to older traditional societies than Europe.

    Another thing is that if you strip away all the minorities in the US, especially the Hispanics and 1st or 2nd generation immigrants of every stripe, and the African-American population and other longstanding minorities, plus the rural white population, the birth rates of the urban, educated white population is as low as whites all over Europe.

    This is what I had in mind when I wrote that the U.S. society is far less uniform than Europe in these matters. Also, I’d say that even the educated urban white population is by itself more heterogeneous in North America — it still contains far stronger pockets of very conservative values than Europe, both among WASPs and those who stem from historically more recent immigration waves from Europe.

    Like


  116. Joe T.,

    BTW, Vladimir, you said a young couple in W. Europe with 3-4 kids would be “considered weirdos”.

    OK, this time there was a bit of hyperbole on my part. 🙂 But I definitely can’t escape the impression that having three, let alone more kids is considered as a much less exotic and extreme choice in North America than in Europe these days.

    All I know is that my 20- and 30-something married friends in W. Europe are actually *more* fertile than the white, professional friends of corresponding age I had for all the years I lived in the DC area. While living in NoVA and working on Capitol Hill, I had a huge group of friends around the entire Capital area, and very few of them were on the verge of marriage, much less actually married and planning families.

    I can believe that, but remember that DC is the utmost lowest extreme in the U.S. when it comes to birth statistics for whites. I don’t have the time to look up the exact numbers now, but I remember seeing the table of U.S. birth rates for each state and race, and the white birth rates for DC were by far the lowest, strikingly lower than even the next lowest state. You can’t possibly take DC as representative of the U.S. in anything, even if you include the surrounding metro area.

    Like


  117. “One of my fat friends has stated that fat women in the United States have no excuse to look hideous when there’s Lane Bryant and Torrid”

    Clothing for fat women is a joke, as epitomized precisely by Lane Bryant and Torrid. Basically in order to try to cover up the fact that you don’t like the way you look you have to choose a persona and you end up wearing what amounts to a costume. You can be the punk girl, or the Bettie Page wannabe, or the buttoned-down polyester corporate. On one hand I think it’s terrible that there are not better, and better made, options. On the other hand losing weight is not so terrible 😀 and you get to wear real clothes.

    Roissy, I wasn’t there but I’ll try to explain what goes through a girl’s head, of course I only have my own experience to draw on. You’ve said yourself that the lower a woman is on the attractiveness totem pole the more important it is that her man be “hot” or a trophy in some way. Remember about the scoliosis girl and how she was so happy? It is a difficult mental process when you lose a lot of weight, or I’d guess when you make any drastic change for the better: Why do people treat me differently now, I’m the same person! – Or am I? The fact is we are not the same, and one of the great things that can happen when you do the work and look better is that your priorities shift. You don’t necessarily jump on any attention thrown your way by a good looking or charismatic man anymore. Kindness and loyalty start to become much more important than looks, among other things. And I say who in this world is better at seeing through bullshit and recognizing people’s true character than a person who has gone most of their life as an unseen observer. Don’t project a dick persona and then get pissed when someone has the audacity to recognize it and reject it. That’s her right and I think she’s earned it. Who says she didn’t have a good time with you and she still thinks well of you but she just didn’t see it going anywhere (which it wasn’t right?). Boo fucking hoo.

    I wish that girl well.

    Like


  118. One of my fat friends has stated that fat women in the United States have no excuse to look hideous when there’s Lane Bryant and Torrid.

    fat women don’t look hideous because they wear the wrong clothes. they look hideous because they’re fat.
    hth.

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  119. One of my fat friends has stated that fat women in the United States have no excuse to look hideous when there’s Lane Bryant and Torrid. .

    There’s no excuse for them to look hideous when there are vegetables, gym memberships and the choice of a simply outdoor jog a few days a week.

    Like


  120. keith hissed like a bitter old spinster:
    And here’s the ironic part: The woman who is good looking and is fun to hang with has spent more time developing her personality.

    That means she values personality more, and is not going to want the men like Roissy (and you) with “looks first” preferences.

    every man has “looks first” preferences. so if she confines her search to men who value her for her personality above all else, she will wind up very alone.

    And by your own admission, as a female alpha, she can afford to eliminate the guys with those preferences.

    1. she wasn’t a female alpha. not hot enough for that.
    2. the only guys she will be “eliminating” are those guys who cannot effectively conceal their true intentions.

    The formerly bigger chick who made Roissy her bitch

    you are conveniently forgetting two things. one, i had already fucked her. two, i was dating two other women at the time, both of them hotter. thus, her retribution, if that is what it was, had no effect on me except as an interesting glimpse into female psychology that i could later use as morality tale blog fodder.

    developed a meta-preference function over men, where she chooses men based on their preferences.

    you’re letting your bitter feminist nerdo soul run away with you.
    women choose men based on how wet they get their pussies.
    meta-wet has got nothing to do with it.

    And Roissy, like most men, and especially most men here, failed to make the cut.

    reading comprehension is not your friend.
    i already made the cut. i was just going back for a freebie.

    He just ain’t good enough for her, and she demonstrated her higher value and his lower value. QED.

    and if you click your heels together three times you’ll be back in real man land, where your testicles haven’t ascended into your womb!

    Like


  121. “i already made the cut. i was just going back for a freebie.”

    You made the cut with the fat her, not the thin her. She lost weight so she could do better than you. You lose.

    “women choose men based on how wet they get their pussies. meta-wet has got nothing to do with it.”

    And lots of things get them wet. In her new thin case, it wasn’t you.

    And now you’re bitter because I didn’t hold your hand like one of your little sorority sisters here. You’ve gone omega, dude.

    Like


  122. Interesting post. Roissy nails it again.

    LOL @ DA 64! Don’t get it twisted PA, America is the Land of the Big Boobs. We do more Boob Jobs per year than anywhere else in the world. Men and women both love em to death. Mu wouldn’t have it any other way, don’t even know what it is to date a gal who was a B-cup. I think the smallest I’ve done, was, let me think now….single “D”?

    I’m wondering what the Forum has to say about R’s comments wrt men occasionally beating their women. Very provocative insights.

    Comments?

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  123. dizzy in drag:
    You made the cut with the fat her, not the thin her.

    can you read no higher than a 3rd grade level? she was about 15 pounds overweight, not “fat” by the standard most men apply the word.

    She lost weight so she could do better than you.

    she lost weight because she understood what men value above all else in women.
    hint: it ain’t a woman’s personality.
    in that respect she is smarter than you.

    You lose.

    the girl i met the next day didn’t think so.

    And lots of things get them wet.

    funny how nearly all women get wet by the same types of men displaying the same kinds of attributes.

    In her new thin case, it wasn’t you.

    spiteful anti-male resentment != dry pussy.
    i don’t expect you to understand this.

    And now you’re bitter because I didn’t hold your hand like one of your little sorority sisters here.

    envy is 100% bad boxoffice, champ.

    You’ve gone omega, dude.

    you sound tense. relax and you’ll be able to pull the buttplug, dizzy.

    Like


  124. We do more Boob Jobs per year than anywhere else in the world.

    So sad. Me no like.

    don’t even know what it is to date a gal who was a B-cup

    It’s a delight beyond description. An A-cup: rapture.

    Like


  125. “and if you click your heels together three times you’ll be back in real man land, where your testicles haven’t ascended into your womb!”

    You’re the one who looks like a pre-op transsexual.

    “the girl i met the next day didn’t think so.”

    There you go trying to validate yourself to me, acting like some skank being gamed.

    Like


  126. Joe T.’s comment 99 is really sharp. If you look at the problems with U.S. male/female relations today, they’re more rooted in the selfishness that results from individualism and “turbocapitalism” than in “radical feminism”, which most women today don’t buy anyway. The kind of truly popular “you go girl!” feminism you see in pop culture is obviously just the set of attitudes you need if you’re going to be a ballbusting, me-first career person — which is exactly the attitude American capitalism encourages *everyone* to adopt. In a culture where greed and selfishness is good, who is going to take the risk of dedicating themself to family?

    Like


  127. An A-cup: rapture.

    I guess everyone has his tastes. Some guys like it shaved, some guys like A-cups and some guys like 12 year old Chinese boys.

    Like


  128. one of my spurned exes cried in agony:
    There you go trying to validate yourself to me, acting like some skank being gamed.

    jes keepin it real, sparky.

    btw, i notice your ip address looks suspiciously like the ip address of one of my exes i unceremoniously dumped. this would explain your pussified hectoring.

    Like


  129. i notice your ip address looks suspiciously like the ip address

    You’re probably right, but I just thought it was a funny phrase. How does one IP look “suspiciously” like another IP? Do they have the same eye color, but it looks like maybe it dyed its hair?

    Like


  130. How does one IP look “suspiciously” like another IP?

    they have the same pained expression in their ASCII.

    Like


  131. @ 132 – How do your exes find out about your blog anyway? When you meet people do you say, hey I’m Pete, but you can call me Roissy?

    Like


  132. “she was about 15 pounds overweight, not “fat” by the standard most men apply the word.”

    I think that being 15 pounds overweight can have the same psychological impact on a person as being 100 pounds overweight. You know the power of playing on people’s insecurities enough to know it doesn’t take much.

    Keith said: “You made the cut with the fat her, not the thin her. She lost weight so she could do better than you. You lose.”

    It is possible that she didn’t start out to do better, but, as I said, discovering that there is something “better” is a natural side effect due to a shift in priorities. Plus the fact that she’d already had the Roissy experience back in her overweight days. Your interest was reignited because she’d changed. But you hadn’t changed except for the fact that you acted more interested. Hello, no wonder she went the other way. It’s basic psychology.

    Thumbs up, Keith.

    Like


  133. “btw, i notice your ip address looks suspiciously like the ip address of one of my exes i unceremoniously dumped. this would explain your pussified hectoring.”

    If it had been the same IP address, you would have victoriously crowed about it.

    And you admit that it’s a different IP address. And seeking alpha is already calling you on it.

    So now you’re down to deception, because that’s all you got now, because I so obviously dominated your frames and gave you a well-deserved bitch slapping.

    QED

    Once again you lose.

    Like


  134. Is Lisa’s fractal pattern like a default for a certain class of IPs or is there a commenter that plays both sides of the gender line?

    Like


  135. Lisa,

    If Roissy was such a brilliant lover, ya think weight loss chick would have overlooked his personality faults and jumped all over him just for the fun of it…

    Like


  136. my scorned ex:
    If it had been the same IP address, you would have victoriously crowed about it.

    never heard of proxies?

    And you admit that it’s a different IP address.

    more reading comprehension problems.
    i said your ip address looked similar. i will do some further investigating later to see if you are indeed one of my exes i hurt terribly.
    if it turns out you are actually a man… then, god help you. you and your 28 cats are an embarassment to your gender.

    And seeking alpha is already calling you on it.

    squealing for allies is so beta.

    So now you’re down to deception, because that’s all you got now, because I so obviously dominated your frames and gave you a well-deserved bitch slapping.

    did you pop an inverted boner when you wrote that?

    Once again you lose.

    saying it over and over doesn’t make it true. but whatever helps you through the pain.

    If Roissy was such a brilliant lover, ya think weight loss chick would have overlooked his personality faults and jumped all over him just for the fun of it…

    false premise. both of them.

    Like


  137. And you admit that it’s a different IP address. And seeking alpha is already calling you on it.

    I didn’t call him on it, I said he was probably right. I just thought it was a funny turn of phrase. Besides, no one would be this bitter and not know him personally.

    Like


  138. Keith
    Lisa,

    If Roissy was such a brilliant lover, ya think weight loss chick would have overlooked his personality faults and jumped all over him just for the fun of it
    When it’s good most women try to hold on for as long as possible. It’s how some men find themselves in long term booty call type relationships with women.

    Like


  139. “false premise. both of them.”

    Hey, she also lost weight to be able to choose more well-endowed guys.

    She should get my number. Too bad for her she already polluted herself.

    Like


  140. lisa:
    I think that being 15 pounds overweight can have the same psychological impact on a person as being 100 pounds overweight. You know the power of playing on people’s insecurities enough to know it doesn’t take much.

    judged by her later actions, she was clearly insecure about her weight. but she was not near the basement levels low self esteem of women who are properly called “fat”. she still had a semblance of sanity.

    It is possible that she didn’t start out to do better, but, as I said, discovering that there is something “better” is a natural side effect due to a shift in priorities.

    you’re misreading the story, like keith the vagina impersonator above.
    she retained strong feelings for me. i could tell by her behavior, by the shine in her eyes, by her heartbeat, by the way she kissed me when we met at that house party. those feelings that drew her to me the first time around were still there, primarily because women never truly lose their attraction for men who have dumped them.
    but when we met for that reunion date, her desire for revenge, for some justification of the efforts she made to lose those 15 pounds and for her lingering resentment of my past dismissal of her and the humiliation she felt by her own stalkerish behavior, led her to ignore the burning in her loins in favor of playing out the psychodrama in her head.
    the screaming of the fat lambs have haunted her all these years and she thought she could silence them with an act of vengeful spite. unfortunately for her, the lambs can never be silenced. but her heart can. unless she comes to terms with reality, the next man in her life will have to deal with the detritus of her ego.

    Plus the fact that she’d already had the Roissy experience back in her overweight days.

    we never forget our first loves.
    and i am every woman’s first love.

    Your interest was reignited because she’d changed.

    more precisely, because she was there. the fact that she was thinner was a nice bonus. a *very* nice bonus.

    But you hadn’t changed except for the fact that you acted more interested.

    i’m much too astute for that. i kept my interest in check and gamed her like i normally game exes, knowing that the circumstances required a bit of diplomatic repositioning on my part.

    Hello, no wonder she went the other way.

    she sacrificed her heart for ego assuaging. a tactical maneuver that will lose her the war if she can’t let go of her distrust of male desire.

    Like


  141. bitter vagina posting as a man:
    Hey, she also lost weight to be able to choose more well-endowed guys.

    do your mantits sway when you run around the house sticking pins in your roissy voodoo doll?

    She should get my number.

    sorry she’s not into blubbering bitter women posing as men.

    Too bad for her she already polluted herself.

    you write like a pillow biting felcher.

    i found $2 change in the couch. give me your crack ho mom’s number.

    Like


  142. Well she’s better than me then. I wouldn’t accept a date from I guy from my past if I wasn’t planning to hit. I mean I thought one of the big perks of being attractive is getting to do whatever the hell you want.

    Fishy as it sounds, with mucho reservations I’ll have to concede to the guy who was actually there. But still if there was no sex then I have to say sommmmbody didn’t reach for the vagina.

    “the screaming of the fat lambs have haunted her all these years and she thought she could silence them with an act of vengeful spite.”

    I have a new theory. I’m thinking maybe the best way to silence the lambs is to give some nice, though not my ideal at first glance, guys a chance.

    Like


  143. Keith,
    I would have jumped on it in that situation but that’s just me. Part of feeling good about yourself involves taking people at face value when it serves your self interest to do so.

    Like


  144. This vignette doesn’t ring true as presented. I suspect he omitted a comment or two resulting in her feeling disrespected.

    Like


  145. [i]OO[/i]

    Like


  146. “italics”

    Like


  147. “she sacrificed her heart for ego assuaging. a tactical maneuver that will lose her the war if she can’t let go of her distrust of male desire”

    sounds like she just couldn’t let go of her distrust of you.

    Like


  148. “we never forget our first loves.
    and i am every woman’s first love”

    Clever. But I’d rather someone’s last love.

    Like


  149. I just wanted to cosign Joe T 11’s comments. I’ve yet to go to Germany or anywhere else in the EU for that matter, but I do know, well, what he’s talking about wrt this country.

    All it takes is for one to go to any Walmart (Target to a lesser extant, perhaps Class plays a role?), shopping mall, etc, and its there alright-seriously overweight women w/the Butch hairstyles and gear that looks more like something Joe Friday would wear, not women.

    And, keep in mind: my aesthetic values are considerably different from Roissy’s and most other guys here. As some of you know, Mu is a Friend to the Zaftig (NOT Zeppelin) Female, and he’s never had a problem w/a gal who likes the Pageboy haircut.

    But damn, even I see it. And it is rough on the eyes.

    While some place the blame on Feminism and the like, I put the blame where it belongs-on us Men. Roissy’s right on two counts, Beauty (however a man defines that) is of utmost importance to Men, and, that Men should uphold standards, first for himself, then for his Woman. Simply put it is unacceptable to Mu to countenance such a Woman as Joe T described. Period.

    And until Men learn to stand up an demand better of their Women, this ugly trend will continue.

    T’s right-it don’t take much to lose a bit of weight. 25 pounds is very do-able, its a start. Nor is wearing some makeup, doing one’s hair/nails, and wearing clothes that actual Women, wear-like dresses and skirts. God, if I see one more Woman in those damned sweatpants, Mu will lose it.

    And biggups to Chic Noir for being the Woman that she is on this issue.:)

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  150. PA:

    We do more Boob Jobs per year than anywhere else in the world.

    So sad. Me no like.

    Indeed. I find fake boobs, or any other sort of plastic surgery implants, hideously repulsive. The very idea of a foreign object being surgically implanted into someone’s body in a manner that it actually sticks out visible from the outside creeps the hell out of me.

    Like


  151. Vladimir,
    Let me join you and PA on the Boob job thing. I was merely making the point about their popularity, not my advocacy for them per se. I’m an Au Natural man.:)

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  152. I’m an Au Natural man.

    Welcome, dear Sir, back to my high esteem.

    Like


  153. Roissy, I slapped you around the room like a sorry little bitch, leaving you crying and shitting yourself in the corner like the syphilitic little cunt you are.

    Like


  154. @ 128 – You’re right about the comment validity. Actually, Elizabeth brought that up on the 600+ thread a while back.

    -Grace.

    Like