Hints Your Relationship Is Doomed

If you observe your girlfriend doing any of these things you had better be formulating contingency plans.

  • She compares you to her girlfriends’ boyfriends.

If you start hearing things from her like “Oh, Sara told me Heath — btw, don’t you think Heath is such a dreamy name for a man? — recently got back from an overseas trip where he played golf with the Dalai Lama. Isn’t that amazing?!” you are in trouble. A woman in love hardly notices your flaws, let alone the exploits or accomplishments of her girlfriends’ men. When a woman is stacking you up, you’ve already come up short.

Solution: Make fun of her. (Really, making fun of a girl is a great solution for just about any occasion). “The Dalai Lama? Wow, Sara must be horrible in bed if she pushed him to become a monk.” Or: “Hey, for our next vacation, I think I’m just gonna lay on the couch all week eating Cheetos. You in?” Whatever you say, don’t make fun of the other man. This is always, however unjustifiably, interpreted by the woman as jealousy.

  • She got a boob job.

Sure, those new melons under a sweater turn you on, but you’ve gotta be aware of the subtext (subbreast?). A girlfriend or wife who randomly decides to take the extreme measure of altering her body parts ostensibly to appeal to you is actually trying to appeal to every man BUT you. The boob job girl is at heart a coldly rational chick who understands well the workings of the sexual market, even if she can’t or won’t articulate the instincts that drive her. She is a visceral status whore who trades in the currency of boobs for bruisers. Caveat: If she gets her synthetic boobs early in the relationship but after she’s fallen in love with you, you may be home free. She’s afraid of losing you to the competition. Worst case scenario: Her boobs were bought by her previous boyfriend. Think about what kind of girl dates guys who would pay to have their girlfriends augmented. I’ll tell you what kind — a girl who views relationships mechanistically, a simple tit for tat. She is a low self-esteem victimologist who doesn’t trust her inner beauty has the power to enthrall a man, and will stop at nothing, including invasive surgery, to maximize her chances of landing and keeping the highest status man possible.

Solution: Don’t be a supportive quisling beta. If her boob job was out of the blue and not at your request, tell her they look nice, but maybe they’re too big for her upper body. Call her “weeble wobble, but they don’t fall down”.

  • She undertakes beautification projects.

Similar to the above, but less the province of the blatantly rational status whore, and harder to recognize the warning signs, a girl who suddenly begins an exercise program or wearing carefully applied makeup or buying new sexy cocktail dresses is prepping herself for a return to the market. You may think she found it in her heart to please you, but you would be deluding yourself. Her biological imperative is manipulating her at the reptilian level to do these things because her womb pulses anew with the desire to be filled by another man’s seed. If she starts saying stuff like “Ugh, don’t kiss me, I just put on lipstick” you’re about to be downsized. A girl who loves you will be happy to receive your kisses whenever you want to give them, and happy to reapply her lipstick without complaint. Caveat: If she begins her beautification project at your insistence, or in reaction to your subtle criticisms or your overt flirtations with better looking women, and you have no doubt she loves you, then encourage her. She will feel desired — she will in fact feel more womanly — that you demand excellence from her.

Solution: This is dangerous territory. The enemy has already breached your frontline defense. You’ll need a two-pronged counteroffensive. One, launch a campaign of subtle, but constant negging. You’ve gotta keep her knocked off balance. Two, commence flirting egregiously with other women. A woman’s battle plan for fresh cock, once  initiated, can only be thwarted by disrupting troop morale. Your job is to remind her, through the actions above, that there is no glory to be found except under rule of your kingship. Take her to your castle balcony and show her the hordes of women streaming from the hinterlands to get through your fortress gate.

  • She bitches at you for minor offenses.

Anytime you notice her aggravation threshold for your antics getting lower, you can bet your bronzed boner that your antics are not the problem — she is annoyed that she no longer feels turned on by you. Women resent men who stop making them horny, in much the same way men resent their wives for getting fat and ruining their sexual experience. Of coures, women are constitutionally incapable of expressing the real reasons for their shriveling libido in your company, so it manifests as a vague annoyance with your tics and quirks that once charmed her pants off.

Solution: Think of everything negative coming out of her mouth as a shit test, and respond as the trained master of muff you are. She’s that little brat you don’t take seriously. Under no circumstance should you attempt to change your quirky habits to placate her; this will only result in more annoyance and more demands for compliance with her ever-growing list of complaints.

  • You’ve caught her in flagrante delicto

Major red flag.

Solution: Laugh at them. It works!





Comments


  1. > You’ve caught her in flagrante delicto
    You’ve caught her flagrante delicto

    Like


  2. ALWAYS laugh her off…It’s the best medicine for her wandering eye.

    Like


  3. on December 10, 2008 at 12:50 pm ironrailsironweights

    She shaves … who cares if it’s a warning sign, dump her immediately!

    Peter

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  4. on December 10, 2008 at 12:58 pm atheist_messiah

    someone please define “flagrante delicto” for me, kthxbye

    Like


  5. “caught in the act”. you’re welcome.

    Like


  6. on December 10, 2008 at 1:01 pm ironrailsironweights

    someone please define “flagrante delicto” for me, kthxbye

    It’s when you catch your girlfriend hiding the salami with some other guy.

    Peter

    Like


  7. This post isn’t very insightful. It all really boils down to being awake and noticing what’s going on around you.

    Looking for quick, easy ways to identify when your relationship is in danger means one thing: your relationship is in danger.

    Like


  8. well said, Lyndon…

    Like


  9. In flagrante delicto literally translated from Latin as “in the blazing offence” but it means “caught in the act.”

    Like


  10. This is all pretty genius.

    These are some of the reasons why I like very short term or long distance relationships with many different girls VS a long term relationship with one girl.

    That way you don’t have to deal with this stuff.

    The true solution to any of these issues is: Find another girl who is younger and more fly.

    Side note:

    On the boob job thing. I knew this one “New Millenium Pimp” of sorts who used to get boob jobs for other guys girls.

    He even got a discount rate from Dr. Ruedner AKA Dr. Boobner, plastic surgeon to the stars.

    – MPM

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  11. This post isn’t very insightful.

    This post makes two useful metapoints:

    1) Always sleep with one eye open.
    2) When seeing red flags, do the opposite of what your first impulse may be, which would be to placate her.

    Like


  12. Most relationship problems are solved with the regular application of flirting with other girls. It has accomplished two things for me. A) provide exit opportunities and B) reminds the girl she is replaceable/you have options. That’s been my default setting for years.

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  13. Don’t be a supportive quisling beta.

    MQ wept.

    Hey MQ, when a girl starts mentioning her friends’ boyfriends to you, talks about getting a boobjob, pushes your kisses away on account of her lipstick, and criticizes your blunders, is it insecurity and resentment on your part to be suspicious of her?

    Tell me: when you eventually walk in on your GF slobbing some other guy’s schlong, do you shrug and tell yourself that it was probably something you did and that it was your insecurity that must have driven her into the arms of another man?

    Just axin’

    Like


  14. flirting with other girls is one aspect, but it doesn’t accomplish all that much if you’re not remaining attractive in other ways as well. i don’t know which roissy maxim it is, but keeping your woman well-serviced has to be about the most important thing. you can successfully flirt with everything in a skirt. if all you’re giving her is a ten minutes of uninspired sex once a week, any woman worth a damn isn’t going to put up with anything she finds remotely bothersome.

    it’s like aretha said:

    if you want a do-right-all-day woman
    you’ve got to be a do-right-all-night man

    Like


  15. As a quick tip, don’t go overboard with the whole “flirting with other women” to show you have options. I’m going to assume that Roissy means this in moderation, but if the man I’m with ALWAYS eyes some other hot woman in the room, my first assumption is, he’s cheating/about to cheat/already cheated, not that he has options. Who dates someone who has no other options available in the first place?
    -Grace.

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  16. I’m married, and I want to congratulate you for identifying this behavior,
    * She bitches at you for minor offenses.

    Anytime you notice her aggravation threshold for your antics getting lower, you can bet your bronzed boner that your antics are not the problem — she is annoyed that she no longer feels turned on by you. Women……… women are constitutionally incapable of expressing the real reasons for their shriveling libido in your company, so it manifests as a vague annoyance with your tics and quirks that once charmed her pants off.

    However, your solution is wrong.

    I went through this with my husband, but could not describe, even to myself, what I was frustrated about. I could identify one large issue, but the rest was agonizingly elusive to me. I just couldn’t say to myself, “He’s not attractive to me.” because I could never admit that I’m that shallow. It was a huge relief to finally understand and admit it to myself. In the 7-8 year interim, I was nitpicking him with, “your voice is aging”, “you sound like your father”, “your posture makes you look like an 80 year old”. He’d be angry, so I’d stop. I couldn’t state, “you’ve adopted a buffoon personae at work”, “Your social skills are retarded: You kill off our social life.” Most off limits, I couldn’t dare to admit, “You’re too fat to enjoy sex with.”

    Solution If you find yourself the target of nitpicking, take it as a red flag that she’s losing respect and desire for you, but can’t admit it to herself. Remember: she’s not that shallow.

    Like


  17. on December 10, 2008 at 3:08 pm Cannon's Canon

    Whenever I’m caught flagrante delicto, I blame it on force majeure.

    Like


  18. anony:

    I went through this with my husband, but could not describe, even to myself, what I was frustrated about. I could identify one large issue, but the rest was agonizingly elusive to me. I just couldn’t say to myself, “He’s not attractive to me.” because I could never admit that I’m that shallow.

    And yet 99% of all the limp-wristed therapists and marriage “experts” will tell the guy his relationship problems are a “””communication””” issue.

    I $uppo$e $uch an approach work$ to their benefit…

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  19. what does it mean for your relationship when the ink on the marriage license isn’t even dry and you’re wife is already an emasculating shrew?

    http://www.observer.com/2008/o2/washingtonienne-gets-wed-wait-what

    Like


  20. Tupac saidTell me: when you eventually walk in on your GF slobbing some other guy’s schlong

    Only the trashiest of women would do that Tupac. If you can avoid the types of girls you would find on Cheaters and Maury, you can avoid the dumpster girl.

    Like


  21. on December 10, 2008 at 3:38 pm Canon's Canon's Angry Lover

    Cannono delenda est!!

    Like


  22. Solution If you find yourself the target of nitpicking, take it as a red flag that she’s losing respect and desire for you, but can’t admit it to herself. Remember: she’s not that shallow
    I agree

    In the 7-8 year interim, I was nitpicking him with, “your voice is aging”, “you sound like your father”, “your posture makes you look like an 80 year old”.
    You are a very brave woman anony.

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  23. chic:

    If you can avoid the types of girls you would find in Cheaters and Maury, you can avoid the dumpster girl.

    Wow, so affairs only occur in the trailer parks and ghettos of the world? Thanks for clearing that up for me.

    Seriously though, your irrational phallophobia makes you singularly unqualified to comment on the…appetites…of your less fearful sisters.

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  24. “A woman in love hardly notices your flaws”…if this is the test, then there must not be many married women who are in love. In any public place, watch the interaction of couples. In at least 50-75% of cases, it consists of the wife treating the husband with anything from mild criticism to barely concealed contempt to not at all concealed anger.

    There are cases where it runs the other way (husband continuously criticizes wife) but these are usually couples over 65 or so.

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  25. There is a survey out of Britain (a women’s magazine, but still) that shows 50% of women in their early twenties cheat. But 99% would dump a male partner who cheated.

    Market power. That’s a function of a many guys chasing a few women (they set the terms and conditions favorable to themselves).

    IF this is indeed the case across the Western World, we are looking at a fairly swift movement to West African styles (or British Underclass, what ever you prefer, same difference) in the way men and women interact.

    Men: lounge around, don’t support any offspring, which is likely not theirs as theirs, have many women who of course have many men.

    Women: kids, from different fathers, who grow up wild.

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  26. I suspect Roissy has read David Deida’s “Way of the Superior Man,” but he’s never mentioned it. Best book about being a man and how to handle women I’ve read.

    Solid post.

    anony,
    If he had corrected the small issues you brought up, eg, posture, you’d still have disrespected him. The small issues are external signs of weakness inside.

    Like


  27. *Mu Co-Signs w/Chic*

    Anony,
    Powerful comments, thank you. You’re in the trenches and on the other side of the aisle; you are to be highly commended for coming forward and giving your testimony.

    You have confirmed what Roissy spoke to above and what I have always felt, that Women are indeed incapable of dealing with “shallow” truths in a brutally blunt way. Most of them anyway. And it’s for this reason that we Men must forever be Vigilant. You got to be on your A-Game ALL THE TIME.

    Interestingly enough, we were just having a conversation on this very topic at the Shop. The question, inspired by the Michael Baisden Show, was what are the Signs that your Woman is creepin’ on you?

    We went around the team, and each Man gave his view. Then they all turned to Mu.

    I simply noted the Prime Importance of a Man being very, *very* observant of his Woman. Its a lot like Hunting, which sadly, most Men don’t do anymore (I’m a Bowhunter); the idea is to look for unnatural movements in the brush.

    Noticing the surrounding situation/scene around your Woman is key, I have learned. What they do and especially, DON’T do. Say and DON’T, say. Subtle changes in body language. And so on.

    I like to play Possum. But in truth, I’m like a CIA Listening Post.

    And the deal is, far too many Guys aren’t observant enough. Not. At. All.

    And, again I tip my Kangol to Ms. Anony: all those “shallow” things MATTER. I’ve found that a Man Making A Strong Effort will satiate most Ladies. Thank God for getting an “A” for Effort.

    *UPDATE*

    Though I have yet to fully Field Test The Mystery Method in-field (big X-Mas Party Dec 27), I *have* given “mini-test runs” since the past weekend, particularly with a hoity-toity chick from the UK. I not only spanked her Bum good for her numerous logical fallacies, but I also then proceeded to emply the Neg Strategy, completely ignoring her, in another Internet forum. I even went into discussions where she was “holding court”, obliquely discredited her without mentioning her name (thus Negging her once-removed, so to speak) and demonstrated my higher cred, thus turning the attention and focus on me.

    This went on since Sat evening or so.

    Then, today at 3.03PM, I receive a private email from UK Chick, apologizing to me and how she’d “re-thought” her views (I called her on her subtle Racism twice and told her that she was in violation of Community Guidelines; one of my homies runs the forum, Social Proof 101). She wants to be Mu’s Friend now.

    Conclusion: The Neg WORKS.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  28. jeff:

    “A woman in love hardly notices your flaws”…if this is the test, then there must not be many married women who are in love.

    Pretty much. Most women at some point or another give up on their heart’s desire of taming one of the upper 10% Alpha Gods. Instead, they eventually settle for a lesser man who can at least fulfill their dreams of picket fences and granite countertops.

    This compromise necessitates a fairly extensive psychological repression in order to maintain the delusion that Mr. Good Enough is actually Mr. Right. Unfortunately, that wascally Id monster usually manages to break out just long enough to take a few swipes at Hubby before retreating back into the cage of Wifey’s barely concealed contempt.

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  29. @ PA

    People should really know those two points on their own. Insight isn’t just based on validity.

    Like


  30. Even when she gets one of the “10% alpha gods,” she may soon stop considering him alpha. After all, he will introduce her to his social circle, which will certainly contain a few guys who are even richer***higher status***better looking than she is….and she will wonder why she “settled” and get resentful.

    This doesn’t happen all the time***there seem to be about 20-30% of women who DO like their husbands and treat them decently***but guys really do need to beware.

    Like


  31. grace:
    Who dates someone who has no other options available in the first place?

    see here:
    http://roissy.wordpress.com/2008/11/25/visualizing-omega/

    anony:
    However, your solution is wrong.

    my experience, and the experience of millions of men who know a thing or two about how women operate, tells me otherwise.

    Solution If you find yourself the target of nitpicking, take it as a red flag that she’s losing respect and desire for you, but can’t admit it to herself. Remember: she’s not that shallow.

    this is not a solution. you’re just restating the problem, less stylishly than me. the solution is what i wrote — treat her like you would treat any woman giving you a shit test, and don’t try to make things right with her by taking her bitching at face value.

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  32. so wait, a woman shouldn’t try to better herself or remake her look through clothing, makeup, fitness unless a man specifically tells her she has to? but you want her to be fit and look good, right? But she cannot be personally responsible for said good looks? What a conundrum!

    Seriously?? hahahahahahahaaaa

    Like


  33. wonka wanked his willy:
    People should really know those two points on their own.

    and yet, so many don’t.

    Insight isn’t just based on validity.

    it’s a necessary precondition.

    Like


  34. “it’s a necessary precondition.”

    True. That proves nothing, however.

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  35. Tupac Chopra
    chic:

    If you can avoid the types of girls you would find in Cheaters and Maury, you can avoid the dumpster girl.

    Wow, so affairs only occur in the trailer parks and ghettos of the world? Thanks for clearing that up for me

    Not quite Tupac. The freaky stuff should done with one’s boyfriend or husband only.

    This could be a cultural difference.

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  36. Wonka, I beg to differ. I concur w/R: so often, the Profoundities of Life get by us because we’ve got our head full of Socialistic Gunk that DOESN’T WORK. Yet people cling to this crap. With all due respect.

    The best place to hide anything, or anyone, is in Plain Sight-right under one’s nose. We as a Society eschew, no, we hate, Occam’s Razor. I on the other hand, rejoice in its use, and I give a hearty slap on the back of anyone else who feels the same way.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  37. so wait, a woman shouldn’t try to better herself or remake her look through clothing, makeup, fitness unless a man specifically tells her she has to?

    if she undertakes a beautification project without any prodding from her partner and seemingly unprompted by any external stimulus, as would be the case if she was getting out of shape, and if the magnitude and intensity of her efforts are at odds with the efforts she made in the past to keep herself in shape, then the odds are good that there is a deep animalistic motivating force pushing her to revitalize her looks. she is likely preparing for another round of ultimate fucking.

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  38. willy:
    That proves nothing, however.

    the proof is self-evident.

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  39. Whiskey, men in West Africa take care of their children. It’s not often that you meet unwed mothers from countries like Ghana, Senegal, Burkina Faso or Nigeria. One of the reasons they hesitate to date American men is because of the high divorce rate in America and the number of men who become * house husbands* . Most West African men do not practice polygamy anymore, it something that remains for the wealthy. In order to have more than one wife a man must be wealthy. How else can a man afford to take care of two or more women in addition to feeding and clothing any children he may sire with them. As a group, West African women don’t have children by a handful of different men.

    Furthermore, in many African countries, the husband retains custody of the children when a couple divorce. Please don’t group all of West Africa with the problems happening in Sierra Leone and Liberia. The equivalent would be to group Mexico with the United States and Canada.
    Whiskey if you need a good example of how Polygamy destroys marriage for younger less wealthy and less alpha men, I would advise you to look at some of those Mormon* cults found in Utah. I’m sure you can find videos on YouTube of young boys who complain of being pushed out of the “group” for the smallest offense so the older men can marry all of the young women.

    *not all Mormons belong to cults

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  40. You know the need for both sexes to play games or use game on each other is utterly depressing as well as emotionally exhausting. I am really starting to get DA’s view of dating and marriage. Maybe a long-term booty call is best option for those who grow from the more cynical branch of the human tree.

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  41. if she undertakes a beautification project without any prodding from her partner and seemingly unprompted by any external stimulus , as would be the case if she was getting out of shape, and if the magnitude and intensity of her efforts are at odds with the efforts she made in the past to keep herself in shape, then the odds are good that there is a deep animalistic motivating force pushing her to revitalize her looks. she is likely preparing for another round of ultimate fucking.

    interesting. A magazine article, salon visit, special occasion or stylish girlfriend are all external stimuli that influence many women to make sometimes dramatic changes… it’s not for nothing that there are industries built around this easily encouraged tendency.

    You’re surely not wrong all the time, but living in such a state of self-centered distrust must be difficult. Can you ever just relax and be in love?

    Like


  42. In the 7-8 year interim, I was nitpicking him with, “your voice is aging”, “you sound like your father”, “your posture makes you look like an 80 year old”.

    The way you write this implies that you consider them interchangeable. Wow, I’m glad I’m not married to you.

    Did it ever occur to you that he can’t do anything about the first two, but he might be able to do something about the third… and he might be able to do something about “you’re too fat to enjoy sex with” as well??

    Constructive criticism. It’s how people make the most of life when they’ve grown beyond Game/Rules-style monotone emotional manipulation. Learn it.

    (Yes, this is tangential to Roissy’s point, but it’s highly relevant to actually having a successful marriage.)

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  43. Roissy, for whatever reason, we women like to change the way we look from time to time. In most instances, it seems like you would be reading too much into any physical changes your woman makes.

    Women even the placement of the furniture in their house or apartment from time to time.

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  44. *swoons at seeing chris above me*

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  45. Chic, clearly you arent getting taken care of. You need a D.

    And yeah Roissy I think you have a good point about the woman all of a sudden caring more about her appearance – but as you say it has to be incongruous with her former efforts, say, when you were first dating.

    BUT, theres a difference between that and, for example, drastic changes in hairstyle/color that many women do on a fairly regular basis. Though I guess one could argue that girls in healthy, satisfied relationships dont really do that because they are content as is.

    No girls, you wouldnt magically be hotter as a blonde.

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  46. A magazine article, salon visit, special occasion or stylish girlfriend are all external stimuli that influence many women to make sometimes dramatic changes…

    like i wrote, it depends also on the magnitude and intensity of her makeover, and the deviation in substance from past makeovers. any *major* female infrastructure development plan that is not needed and is in peculiar contradiction to her typical historical behavior pattern should raise an eyebrow.
    naturally, if tied in with the other red flags i listed in my post, you’ve got more reason to suspect ominous portents.

    it’s not for nothing that there are industries built around this easily encouraged tendency.

    the industries simply reflect the want. if her tendencies are easily encouraged that is only because her nature is inherently immutable.

    You’re surely not wrong all the time, but living in such a state of self-centered distrust must be difficult.

    cross out “self-centered” and change “distrust” to awareness and “difficult” to liberating and you may have a point.

    Can you ever just relax and be in love?

    relaxing in a blissful state of love is not incompatible with accepting reality.
    in fact, they are often mutually reinforcing.

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  47. interesting. A magazine article, salon visit, special occasion or stylish girlfriend are all external stimuli that influence many women to make sometimes dramatic changes… it’s not for nothing that there are industries built around this easily encouraged tendency.

    Such ephemeral stimuli are very unlikely to drive a truly determined effort to change. Wanting a better guy, even subconsciously, is a far more powerful motivator.

    Meanwhile, if you’re a careful guy, it is possible to advantage of this phenomenon if your gf has gained significant weight; I’ve managed this even though I’m pretty much as beta as they come. It’s safe to demand excellence from her when the same excellence will be demanded by other guys anyway — just stay in good shape yourself to avoid the hypocrisy charge.

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  48. RickBUT, theres a difference between that and, for example, drastic changes in hairstyle/color that many women do on a fairly regular basis. Though I guess one could argue that girls in healthy, satisfied relationships dont really do that because they are content as is
    Rick you had it but you let it go.

    Women who are not in relationships sometimes change their appearance in ways that most men don’t find attractive. Sometimes we just like change. Google a pic of Selita E. Banks before and after her recent haircut.

    Roissy’s bit on nagging was dead on thought for the most part. If your woman nags you about the smallest stuff, she is ready to leave. If you don’t have children with her, pack your stuff and get to moving. Why waste time with someone who doesn’t want to be with you. Being single is not the end of the world.

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  49. Roissy saidany *major* female infrastructure development plan that is not needed and is in peculiar contradiction to her typical historical behavior pattern should raise an eyebrow.

    Ha
    I love those parts of your counter argument. You are starting to sound like the Einstein of game.

    OH, I forgot to mention. Sometimes women cut their hair when they are angry with the SO. In addition, some women will want to make drastic physical changes even if the most alpha of men assure her that she is very desirable without any adjustments

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  50. Women even the placement of the furniture in their house or apartment from time to time.

    hey, that’s cool. more parts of the house to christen with our lovemaking.

    I love those parts of your counter argument.

    i bet you do.

    You are starting to sound like the Einstein of game.

    he blinded me with science.
    doo doo doo

    btw, i prefer to think of myself as the feynman of love.

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  51. Feynman was something else. An alpha physicist, in some ways, or at least he had the ability to be when he wanted to. I still have a book he autographed for me. The world is poorer for him no longer being around.

    Second, I have to agree with Roissy on most of these points, especially the one about marriage. I consistently give the “don’t take that shit and make fun of her for it” advice to my married friends (a fate I hope to forever avoid), and they almost never take it.

    The result is precisely what was predicted – more complaints at higher frequency and volume if placating is attempted, not less. If you give an inch, they will take a mile.

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  52. like i wrote, it depends also on the magnitude and intensity of her makeover, and the deviation in substance from past makeovers.

    I find the “magnitude and intensity” recommendation charming b/c it requires men to pay close attention to a woman’s grooming and beauty rituals over the length of a relationship–I hear my lover laughing as I type this–but, the search for ominous portents aside, this is cute and potentially endearing.

    the industries simply reflect the want.

    no. The want is there for many, but advertising and and the industries it supports are, generally speaking, much more manipulative and coercive than a simple reflection. It’s naive to think otherwise. Look at the history of the ad industry and it’s clear that the intent from the jump was to fck with people’s heads.

    relaxing in a blissful state of love is not incompatible with accepting reality.
    in fact, they are often mutually reinforcing.

    agree, now try it lol

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  53. btw, i prefer to think of myself as the feynman of love.

    an atheist like yourself.

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  54. ugh
    The want is there for many, but advertising and and the industries it supports are, generally speaking, much more manipulative and coercive than a simple reflection. It’s naive to think otherwise. Look at the history of the ad industry and it’s clear that the intent from the jump was to fck with people’s heads

    cosign

    It’s the reason companies are willing to post ads anywhere. The ads allover the ballparks, commercials for cereals overloaded with sugar(think captain crunch) &plastic junk aka toys during kids cartoons .

    Now they even want to post ads on the buttocks of strippers.

    SMH the day I see an ad for AT&T on the schlong of a Chippendale, is the day I stop handing out dollars bills to men with sixpacks and thongs.

    Like


  55. Women resent men who stop making them horny

    Absolutely. We also resent men who who pass out on us every Friday & Saturday night.

    And I agree 100% with the lipstick comment, roissy.

    Like


  56. “This post isn’t very insightful. It all really boils down to being awake and noticing what’s going on around you. ”

    If people were awake and noticing what goes on around them, almost everything Roissy writes would be self evident. Most people are delusional and get their ideas about life from television advertisements.

    Like


  57. ugh on love:
    I find the “magnitude and intensity” recommendation charming b/c it requires men to pay close attention to a woman’s grooming and beauty rituals over the length of a relationship

    not at all. a sudden and drastic change in clothing, hair, or weight is pretty fucking obvious to all but the dullest sports watching doofus. for instance, men notice right quick when their women wear different lingerie, or when she’s stopped wearing any at all, so it’s not at all inconceivable that with very little effort they’ll notice other things about her that affect her sexiness.

    I hear my lover laughing as I type this

    he found your granny panties?

    but, the search for ominous portents aside, this is cute and potentially endearing.

    the cuteness helps me slide under the radar.

    no.

    yes.

    The want is there for many, but advertising and and the industries it supports are, generally speaking, much more manipulative and coercive than a simple reflection.

    advertising would not work if it didn’t first and foremost cater to human desire. cf: the paucity of advertising aimed at men featuring fat women.
    the advertising industry will exploit those innate desires, but it cannot create them out of wholecloth.

    It’s naive to think otherwise.

    it’s naive to think advertisers don’t have to work within the boundaries of human want.

    Look at the history of the ad industry and it’s clear that the intent from the jump was to f[u]ck with people’s heads.

    more accurately, to fuck with their wallets.
    their heads were only middlemen.

    agree, now try it

    i already am.
    just not with you.

    lol

    not quite.

    chiclet:
    cosign

    you always cosign dumb shit that reaffirms your lame discredited conventional worldview.
    try thinking outside the box, mmkay?

    Like


  58. lupo Most people are delusional and get their ideas about life from television advertisements

    sad but true

    you always cosign dumb shit that reaffirms your lame discredited conventional worldview.
    try thinking outside the box, mmkay?

    does that include the few times I’ve cosigned with you?

    conventional worldview
    I think I’m far from conventional.

    the paucity of advertising aimed at men featuring fat women
    Ah
    The abundance of advertising and tv shows featuring fat men. Women prefer/like fat men???

    Like


  59. does that include the few times I’ve cosigned with you?

    i don’t recall you cosigning me. but if you have, congrats. you managed to be on the winning team a few times.

    The abundance of advertising and tv shows featuring fat men. Women prefer/like fat men???

    those shows aren’t selling products that require marketing to women’s sexual desires to generate sales. for an example of what i’m talking about, see the cover of pulp romance novels. the men on those are never fat.

    Like


  60. on December 10, 2008 at 7:33 pm Comment_Wall_E

    People whine about how it’s ‘just obvious’.

    Well, let’s look at one very poor movie that is programming a lot of poor 6-10 year old boys with total nonsense.

    Wall_E, about a good robot who lets the female robot chase him around trying to shoot him with a laser. He puts up with it till she stops. Then he wins her heart by giving her the last plant left alive on Earth..

    I pity the poor children having such nonsense poured into their minds. Failing every shit test will make women stop giving you shit tests. And don’t forget to buy her!

    Like


  61. “the proof is self-evident.”

    Yes, it’s evident that you have no point. I’m impressed that your best assertion is that your post has some but not all of the qualitites required to make it insightful.

    Like


  62. “The abundance of advertising and tv shows featuring fat men. Women prefer/like fat men???”

    Fat men are usually the butt of TV jokes in my opinion, especially in commercials. In reverse sexism, fat women almost never feature in commercials targeting men,

    Like


  63. Isn’t this the red flag that you should definitely bust out the camcorder before your window of opportunity is diminished?
    But seriously, I imagine that you are correct that, this just is a trigger that you should pre-emptively strike so that she cannot complete the monkey swinging from tree maneuver. I like to call this scenario… running with scissors…

    Like


  64. @Mu’Min. High Five. It is kind of disappointing the first time you run this sort of game and it actually works… isn’t it.. =)
    It really ruined my Victorian Era sensibilities and I’m thankful for that experience. =)

    Like


  65. “She bitches at you for minor offenses.

    Anytime you notice her aggravation threshold for your antics getting lower, you can bet your bronzed boner that your antics are not the problem — she is annoyed that she no longer feels turned on by you. Women……… women are constitutionally incapable of expressing the real reasons for their shriveling libido in your company, so it manifests as a vague annoyance with your tics and quirks that once charmed her pants off.”

    It hurts because it’s true

    Like


  66. a sudden and drastic change in clothing, hair, or weight is pretty fucking obvious to all but the dullest sports watching doofus

    exactly. it’s the norm, not some penetrating insight that requires a cavalcade of counter-strike mind games. lmao.

    the cuteness helps me slide under the radar.

    Cuz every girl deep down really really wants her lover to be like a gay best friend

    advertising would not work if it didn’t first and foremost cater to human desire.

    amazing restatement of the obvious that we’ve both already acknowledged

    it’s naive to think advertisers don’t have to work within the boundaries of human want.

    one more time for good measure?

    more accurately, to fuck with their wallets.
    their heads were only middlemen.

    that’s true, except present tense. And of course you’ve anthropomorphized a wallet to deflect a point that still has to do with the head, but whatever.

    i already am.
    just not with you.

    yet another restatement of the obvious; I think I’ve overestimated you. thanks for the attention. Back to lurking I go……..

    Like


  67. I was going to comment on Roissy’s latest contribution to humanity, but can hardly muster an opinion. So….boring…..

    Like


  68. on December 10, 2008 at 8:24 pm Voice of Reason

    Cuz every girl deep down really really wants her lover to be like a gay best friend

    Yes, as every girl wants her gay best friend to be like David Alexander.

    Like


  69. Roissy saidthose shows aren’t selling products that require marketing to women’s sexual desires to generate sales. for an example of what i’m talking about, see the cover of pulp romance novels. the men on those are never fat
    good point.

    Like


  70. ugh begged for roissy redemption, hard and long:
    exactly.

    own goal.

    it’s the norm, not some penetrating insight that requires a cavalcade of counter-strike mind games.

    this is what you originally wrote:

    I find the “magnitude and intensity” recommendation charming b/c it requires men to pay close attention to a woman’s grooming and beauty rituals over the length of a relationship-I hear my lover laughing as I type this–but, the search for ominous portents aside, this is cute and potentially endearing.

    it’s pretty fucking obvious you were not arguing that men paying close attention to their women’s beauty rituals is the norm, else you would not have snidely attempted to belittle such behavior, and by extension, my argument.

    lmao.

    i doubt it.

    Cuz every girl deep down really really wants her lover to be like a gay best friend

    you have me confused for your boyfriend.

    amazing restatement of the obvious that we’ve both already acknowledged

    except you never acknowledged the obvious, until i had you backed into a corner with it (heh). instead, you ignored the obvious in favor of your humanities department pet platitudes:

    The want is there for many, but advertising and and the industries it supports are, generally speaking, much more manipulative and coercive than a simple reflection.

    in fact, looks to me like you asserted just the opposite of what i said. you believe that advertising does not foremost cater to (i.e. reflect) human want.

    one more time for good measure?

    the best advertising in the world will not manipulate the typical straight man into buying porn featuring ugly fat old women.

    And of course you’ve anthropomorphized a wallet

    poetic license.

    to deflect a point that still has to do with the head, but whatever.

    or deflect away from mushy thinking.

    yet another restatement of the obvious

    then why did you originally claim i was not relaxing in a blissful state of love if it was so obvious i was? hmmm?

    I think I’ve overestimated you.

    i think i’ve hurt you.

    thanks for the attention.

    squealed the pig before the slaughter.

    Like


  71. on December 10, 2008 at 8:41 pm David Alexander

    How did you guess?!?!?! My secret is out; I’M A FAGGOT!!!!!

    Like


  72. My secret is out; I’M A FAGGOT!!!!!

    well, those pics you once posted of your favorite porn stars… the ones with the lantern jaws who looked liked trannies… do suggest a poofter predilection.

    Like


  73. Roissy

    squealed the pig before the slaughter.

    So pompous.

    Like


  74. on December 10, 2008 at 10:02 pm Voice of Reason

    While the David Alexander who posted there was an obvious fake, I suspect the real DA is a closted homosexual. As you pointed out Roissy, his taste in females leans towards dudes with blonde hair and make up, and the way he writes about attempts with courting women and his various Queens is indicative of a female mood.

    Let’s pitch in to buy him a tranny hooker for Christmas.

    Like


  75. Roissy, I think you’re introducing unnecessary fears into the hearts of poor old betas. In reading this post (and thinking back over some others) I find myself wondering whether a good deal of the kind of female cheating you describe is taking place among women married to “alphas” rather than “betas”. Perhaps they are married to alphas who are losing their money, or sex appeal, or whatever else a particular woman might find appealing – but still, probably alphas.

    A woman who chooses a beta is likely to know that her husband/partner isn’t the chest-thumping type. As long as he isn’t an actual pushover, she will probably retain her respect for him. If a true alpha came along and tried to steal her away, it’s possible she might be interested – but it’s not inevitable. Many attractive women have learned to prefer men who don’t put them through an emotional wringer the way alphas often do; unattractive women don’t stand a chance with an alpha anyway.

    But a woman who chooses what she thinks is an alpha strong man, and then finds that he’s slipping, or that he isn’t as strong as he looked on the surface, or that he’s not very intelligent (I’ve seen this one happen often; men who have Game are wily but not necessarily brainy) – she’s the one who’ll become discontented and start to belittle her mate, and try to justify leaving him.

    Like


  76. Fat guy, hot wife sitcoms? For the female audience (80% of sitcom viewers are women), to laugh at the fat guy.

    Stuff aimed at men always has an idealized (fit, low body fat) lead actor.

    Like


  77. Clio “Many attractive women have learned to prefer men who don’t put them through an emotional wringer the way alphas often do”
    === Yes, one example being girls who got their hearts broken at a tender age by an alpha (or at least a guy that they perceived as one) and made it a determined point to never get involved with one again. Who hasn’t seen examples of very attractive (and non-bossy) ladies married to guys who are clearly non-alpha? I can think of two such cases off the top of my head who gave a very clear vibe of “I don’t give a shite if you’re charming and attractive, now piss off.” Their rage against the boy who ripped out their heart is eternal.

    Of course such cases are exceptions, and even these women are rebelling against the very real lower-brain level of attraction toward alphas that Roissy is always talking about.

    Like


  78. Roissy,

    Have u thought about a book deal?

    Like


  79. I have a story for all of you.

    Recently, a few of you guys have been asking for a girl to do a blog that’s essentially a female roissy. i thought of all of you when this happened to me…

    there’s a restaurant i go to regularly (about once a week) that’s walking distance from my house. i always eat at the bar, and i usually go on mondays or wednesdays. i watch football/basketball, chat with the bartender and the regulars, eat a steak salad and drink some wine, then walk home.

    last week i went on a thursday night, with a different bartender. a few of his female friends stopped in to say hello, and we chatted about random girl stuff. then randomly they started talking about how hot the sunday-wednesday bartender is. it INSTANTLY changed my perception of my regular bartender. i’d always thought he was cute, but their compliments suddenly made me irresistibly attracted to him! it was crazy. and the whole time [GOD i’m sick for this] i was thinking of stupid roissy and this blog and the fact that i’m reacting instinctually/biologically to the fact that these gals have now ‘added value’ to the cute bartender.

    i seriously, without any rational explanation, experienced my brain contriving plans to go back when he was there to somehow seduce him. i started fantasizing about him. mind you, i had NO intentions of this before hearing these girls, and in light of this blog i am accutely aware that my intentions were only a factor of my fucked up brain responding to female interest in this guy.

    holy shit, women are fucked up. myself included.

    all the requests for women to do a female ‘roissy’ blog are in vain – we can see our faulty reasoning for what it is, but we can’t justify it with reason, can’t back it with logic, and sure as hell can’t analogize it to any published theories.

    good luck trying to figure us out.

    Like


  80. “a few of his female friends stopped in to say hello, and we chatted about random girl stuff. then randomly they started talking about how hot the sunday-wednesday bartender is. it INSTANTLY changed my perception of my regular bartender. i’d always thought he was cute, but their compliments suddenly made me irresistibly attracted to him!”

    Lol women.
    http://www.theabsolute.net/misogyny/lvmanual.html

    “Because a woman doesn’t think for herself she will only find you of value if she thinks other women find you to be of value. “

    Like


  81. Epiclolz:
    Thanks. As something of an admirer of the Victorian Age, I can dig where you’re coming from, and, as I have now finished, cover to cover, Style/Strauss’ The Game, your comments are indeed poignant.

    Which makes for a good excuse for me to give this UPDATE:

    As noted above, I have now finished reading The Game cover to cover. I consider the book to serve multiple purposes: a DAMN GOOD READ in its own right, an expose of the PUA/Seduction Community, and most importantly for me, one part of a two-part Manual of, in the main, the Mystery Method, although there’s some other nice tidbits tossed in there too, if you’re sharp enough to catch them.

    When I received my book order last Sat, I dove right into the Mystery Method. But it seemed kinda “clunky” to me. Don’t know any other way to explain it than that.

    So, I put it down and picked up The Game, and I’m so very glad that I did.

    In my humble view, one should not read MM alone and call it a day. Not if you really want to understand the ins and outs, pardon the pun, of Game and its creation in our time, its history, and the Road Ahead. The Game and the Mystery Method work in tandem like the skeleton and flesh of the body work in tandem. The Game fleshes out the Myster Method skeleton.

    Style/Strauss should get a Medal, man. And I mean that. I read a lot of books, four or five a month, and hands down, this is some of thee best writing I’ve seen in a long time. Its that good.

    So is his brutal honesty, about himself, about Mystery, about other PUAs and about The Game itself. He doesn’t shy away from talking about both the up and downsides of it all. And don’t get it twisted, there *is* a downside. Keeping this in the forefront of my head keeps me from abusing this Power.

    And make no mistake about it, Gentlemen, The Game gives you Power, and with Power comes Responsibility. After reading this, I think I need a refresher on The Federalist Papers. I just need that restraints of Madison to keep things in perspective.

    If I may, I had one heck of a discussion with some folk last night, and this goes to something Mike Blowhard asked me recently-he had assumed that Black guys didn’t need Game. He is wrong.

    Simply put, not only do most Men don’t have a clue how to seduce Women, they don’t know anything about courting one either-and for the most part, most don’t care. This is VERY EVIDENT in the Black community. It was always in my face; The Game/Mystery Method put a spotlight on it.

    I had a theory, pre-Game: that one reason why so many Sistas were so angry, was because they weren’t getting any. I’ve amended this theory, post-Game: not only are they pissed that they ain’t getting any and/or what they getting ain’t shit, but they ain’t being seduced/romanced AT ALL.

    And that’s why I think Game, as Roissy mentioned, does indeed do a Marriage Good.

    Because, for all the protestations of Strauss’ book from the Ladies (and remember y’all, if anyone whoops and hollers that much about something-like the Neg-might that be a sign, that it works, and its true?), and this again goes to Roissy’s point made earlier, WOMEN WANT IT. Granted, you can’t be heavyhanded with it. You gotta learn finesse. An easy touch. But nevertheless, they do, want it. Bad.

    Most Brothas-most-don’t know how to talk to Sistas at all, man. And I’ve learned something really important: all those outer signals a guy sends out, give clues to a Woman as to just how good you are in bed, don’t get it twisted. Now it may be a “false read”-being a kind of Papa figure can definitely produce that effect-but if you’re like Style, you work to develop a fully rounded Game, inner and outer, as well as working on other aspects of your life.

    And I think that’s the biggest lesson I got from the book(s): Style, unlike so many of these guys, actually had a life before Game; he was curious about the world around him. Game gave him the tools to put all of that to good use. In the Black community, and this hurts me to say this, but the Brothas are living in the Stone Age.

    They don’t read. They don’t watch the news. They don’t care what’s going on in the world. And many are out and out hostile to education in any form.

    No wonder Sistas are so angry.

    Being a good conversationalist demands that you be the opposite of what I just said above. Most Brothas suck at being good conversationalists. And Women are verbal. *Mu shakes head*

    I said that I wanted to study Game, among other reasons, to really understand what I was doing via “auto-pilot”. I was lost, but now I’m found. Yes, its a Biblical reference, and I like how The Game looks, like a Bible, because to me, what it talks about are as old as the Bible itself. I have som theological revelations/observations to give concerning Game, but I’ll save that for another post.

    More later. Oh, and on order: The Art of Seduction, The Story Of O, & Pimp.

    Holla back…

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  82. *Mu tips Kangol to Dirty Blonde*

    You a bad sister.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  83. Many women are emotional retards like small children and are best treated as such.

    Like


  84. Roissy, you are officially my fucking hero.

    My ex-wife did the last one – the last few weeks before she told me that she was “no longer in love with me” were filled with signs of her minor annoyances. Unfortunately, having spent the previous two years on 3-4 hours sleep a night because of our baby daughter I was so fucking tired and totally oblivious to the meaning of these signs. Added to the fact that we had only been married 3 months (at her insistance) and I was under the delusion that she would never just throw away our relationship it all came as a bit of a shock.

    The problem was that, although I had not studied Game I was naturally doing things that kept her in check up until the point where we had a child and I (gullible fool that I was) thought that it was no longer necessary because she was totally committed to me. I took my eye off the ball and got fucking crushed.

    One of my biggest mistakes came in the last week (before she dropped the bomb). We were talking about one of my collegues – a twenty something hottie who’d only recently joined the team. I remarked on how almost all the guys in the office were falling over themselves to flirt with her. When the wife asked whether I flirted with her I said that I didn’t want to. Schoolboy error.

    As others have remarked, Game doesn’t end when you’ve bagged the babe, it just changes subtly. Game is 100% necessary with most women.

    The upside to all this is that since we divorced I have realised how fucking hideous she now looks and I’m dating twenty year olds instead.

    Like


  85. The upside to all this is that since we divorced I have realised how fucking hideous she now looks and I’m dating twenty year olds instead.

    Do you get to meet your daughter regularly?

    Like


  86. dirty blonde – that is too funny and has happened to me before, too. I actually went on a date last week where the guy went through all the steps of escalating kino and I knew that is what he was doing but I COULD.NOT.STOP.myself from responding to him in just the ways that are described. Ugh. I had to cut it short…at least some of us can recognize that we are f*cked in the head.

    And Mu – as for your comment above re: creeping – I play possum, too. In fact, I give the person all the rope they can handle and let them hang themselves.

    Like


  87. nice, Dirty Blonde and QT have straight up admitted their stupid cunts. Bravo!!!

    You make me sick… i’d love nothing more than to mushroom-stamp both of your foreheads just prior to gluing your eyes shut.

    Like


  88. *they’re no their

    gah… wtf is the edit button?

    Like


  89. Hey QT,
    Well, thank you for your testimony. I think that it can be said, that you and Dirty Blonde, along w/my own “by the book” tests, have validated Evolutionary Psychology, yes?

    More later, and thanks on the “Possum” piece.;)

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  90. James O., it’s true some women have their hearts broken by an alpha bf, and learn to avoid them afterwards. But some women’s mistrust of alphas isn’t quite that simple.

    Point one: some women have unfaithful fathers and learn to fear compulsive charmers/ladies’ men through them.

    Point two: not all alphas, in Roissy’s sense, are strong men. Some use Game and success with women to make up for their lack of other masculine strengths. A woman who has dated an alpha who can’t hold a job, or who isn’t very bright (as I mentioned before), or who is emotionally unstable, may well learn to prefer betas, without any “heartbreak” involved.

    Point three (related): I’ve known many women who dumped alpha boyfriends because the men had revealed serious faults of this kind. They usually went on to marry what Roissy I suppose would call upper Betas or lesser alphas, men who might know a little Game, esp. the “inner” kind, but didn’t make bedding women their raison d’etre. Such men used charm or humour rather than bullying or infidelity to keep their women interested.

    Like


  91. ethical systems can be categorized as deontological or consequentialist. the former is an ethics based on intentions, and the former on outcomes. this difference is perfectly highlited in dirty and QTs comments. it’s curious to me that women so often outwardly favor the deonotological perspective, but at the same time their actions tend to be consistant with consequentialism.

    how do you guys deal with all the contradictions going on in your heads?

    Like


  92. and is anyone else sick and tired of the whole ‘advertisers made me do it mentality’?

    companies try to sell goods and services. they market by trying to intuit and appeal to desires that already exist. sometimes the product or the marketing is so powerful that temporary trends or fads are created, but no company or industry can continue to ‘manipulate’ human behavior in the way that out contemporary victim mentality makes it seem. if it could, why did consumers reject new coke? if it could, why are the big three facing bankruptcy? marketing can be a powerful tool, but only to the degree that it matches up with pre-existing human wants.

    and there are so many fat dude-cute woman couples on TV and in commercials because it appeals to those women who imagine themselves as a beautiful, desirable, intelligent creatures who happens to be saddled with an average, clueless, and hapless man. our society’s hostility towards fat women has much less to do with men. most men feel no particular animosity for fat women, we simply ignore them. the real ill-will towards fat women come from other women.

    Like


  93. on December 11, 2008 at 11:35 am Overpriced Hadron Collider

    Still, the season is upon us and it’s nice to be in love

    Like


  94. Mu – Sample size might be an issue, but for the most part, yes. And I also agree with most of the posters here about negs. They do work, I think when you see the exchange in a written format it is easy for women to say “That would not ever work on me”, but when they are inserted as a part of established & ongoing banter, they absolutely have the desired effect.

    Lance – I don’t know that I fall completely into the deontological camp….one of the reasons I started reading this blog (other than I find a lot of roissy’s writing humorous) is that I wanted to understand why “game” works for some guys and not for others. I don’t take issue with it being used like some women do. Actually, I like it because I think it gives a guy I might otherwise overlook the confidence to approach me.

    Sure, sometimes I feel like an idiot when I realize I am being led around by the nose, but I have nothing to lose by being honest in this forum.

    Like


  95. Roissy,
    I had been dating (petting) with this girl (36 yr/old recent divorcee) for a couple of weeks. We would make out in the parking lot of my complex, but she would never come up to finish what we started. Cut to Halloween, I get in an accident that requires some minor plastic surgery (rebuild my nose and eye socket floor). The surgeons said they couldn’t tell the extent of the damage w/o looking the x-rays (superficially, i’m the same)

    This chick talks to me still (txts at least twice a day), but now never wants to see me. I don’t know what to do. I want to bang it out cause it’s like I ran a race and never finished. I guess she thinks I look horrible, but she can see that i haven’t changed except for the temporary eye patch on my FB page. OR I missed my chance prior to halloween and I need to just forget about it. We haven’t talked in 5 days and my boy says I need to keep quiet. . .that she’ll be begging for me in a couple of months. Feels weird not to say anything before x-mas or new years.

    I was thinking, “In case I don’t see you. Have a MC and Happy NY”

    What do you think,

    Like


  96. Bigdd, let me pretend to be Roissy for a minute, because I think he and I might say the same thing about this one: DON’T DO IT. Do not contact this woman. She’s either really not interested (or she would have gone to see you when you had your accident), or she needs a touch of Game to remind her of her manners. Ignore her. Stop answering her calls or be too busy to talk if you inadverently pick one up. If she is somewhat interested, that may bring her around. If not, you’re well rid of her.

    Like


  97. UPDATE:
    …And the Walls came Tumbling Down…

    At 11.45AM I checked my email to see that Ms. Hoity Toity had poured her Soul out to me. I can’t reveal this one y’all, but suffice it to say, that the Almighty Neg, Social Proof, & Demonstrating Value (I’m an astrologer w/more than 15 years exp and taught it at an American Uni) DOES MOST DEFINITELY WORK-

    EVEN ON THE INTERNET.

    One more small detail.

    She was born on the African continent. Which goes to show, that Mystery’s Method does indeed work in the Motherland.

    Word.

    Now, I have to go and sit down…

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  98. Bigdd -stop postively reinforcing negative behavior. Do not txt or call her until she txts or calls you at LEAST 4-5 times, and even then…she seems like a waste of time if all you want to do is get laid.

    Keep in mind I am a chick, tho, so supposedly you should ignore whatever I say…..

    Like


  99. biddumbdumb:

    This chick talks to me still (txts at least twice a day), but now never wants to see me.

    Attention junkie. Your window for escalation has passed. Now the only workaround is to make her come to you. Do not escalate again with this girl until you have isolated her in a place where you can bang.

    Like


  100. QT,
    In the Hood among the Playas, there’s what is known as The Rule Of Ten Percent: only about 10% of what a Woman says at any given time is of any productive use to a Man, *especially,* when it comes to matters uch as these. Of course, the trick is in determining which 10%, LOL. That only comes with lots of patience, practice, and LISTENING.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  101. Some advice to Kick a Bitch: when a chick goes against type and actually gives some honest feedback about what works on her or gets her moist, NEVER, EVER, respond judgmentally unless she’s a chick you’re banging. Even as a joke or a neg. Just nod and listen. Judgmental talk is a surefire way to make sure that woman thinks twice before ever giving honest feedback again.

    Like


  102. T.:

    when a chick goes against type and actually gives some honest feedback about what works on her or gets her moist, NEVER, EVER, respond judgmentally unless she’s a chick you’re banging.

    I’d have thought it’s the other way around. When it’s a chick you are personal with, never verbalize the Matrix, even if she brings it up first. I’ve found it’s best to pretend to buy into the pretty lies while at the same time inwardly evaluating her actions and yours with ruthless precision.

    Internet personalities are fair game.

    Judgmental talk is a surefire way to make sure that woman thinks twice before ever giving honest feedback again.

    I have a hunch that QT and dirty li’l slut won’t be holding themselves back on account of Kick A Bitch.

    Like


  103. T-Raw has just given a Prima Facie exposition of the proper application of the Ten Percent Rule. My compliments to you, my good sir!

    KAB, are we learning yet?;)

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  104. BigDumbDumb,
    With all due respect sir, I think you blew it well before your Halloween mishap; that was just the Coup de Grace.

    An old, wise man once told Mu that a Woman knows, within about 2 minutes of meeting a Man, whether she wants him inside her or not; the Man’s mission was not to “undersell”, or, “oversell”-in other words, have weak rap, or talk himself outta the Mount of Venus.

    Mu was dumbstruck; this could not possibly be true, he thought to himself. But the Old Wise Man had insisted that this was so, based on the decades of his in field experience. He then invited Mu to see for himself. Which is exactly what Mu did.

    Through a combination of interviews with many different Women, as well as a few adventures of his own, Mu has come to completely, wholeheartedly, 100% concur with what that Old Wise Man had said lo those many Moons ago.

    And, since I’ve been studying the Mystery Method, what the OWM said comports with Mystery’s Three Second Rule. I don’t even have to field test that one. I know its true.

    No disrespect BDD, but your Game was not strong enough to “pull” her along.

    Please get The Game. And read it.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  105. Mu – on the 10% rule, heard and understood. I have many, many male friends (more than women) so I get to hear the stories of some of the incredibly shitty things women do and say to men. Having guy friends has taught me to be WAY more compassionate towards “the approach”, and also to be a lot more straightforward with men I date.

    The kino success stood out to me because I am very conscious of being touched by men (maybe this is a cultural thing?) and I am usually told I am too “icy”. I was very aware of what he was doing but I didn’t feel the need to stop him or make any adjustments to get out of his reach, etc. until he tried to kiss me – then I had to bounce.

    And the 2 minute rule is true, but from my perspective it usually follows that the more adversarial those first 2 minutes are, the greater the chances are that I will end up liking that guy…..Logical? No. The truth? Absolutely.

    Like


  106. I’d have thought it’s the other way around. When it’s a chick you are personal with, never verbalize the Matrix, even if she brings it up first. I’ve found it’s best to pretend to buy into the pretty lies while at the same time inwardly evaluating her actions and yours with ruthless precision.

    Personally I’m not really for openly passing moral judgments on ANY chick unless she’s wifey material.

    I have a hunch that QT and dirty li’l slut won’t be holding themselves back on account of Kick A Bitch.

    agreed, but still a bad habit. makes you miss out on the REALLY good female revelations.

    Like


  107. Mu, has your embrace of The Game changed Zam’s view on it at all?

    Like


  108. Personally I’m not really for openly passing moral judgments on ANY chick unless she’s wifey material.

    I don’t consider it to be passing moral judgement when one calls a spade a spade, although I understand many women feel differently. Anyway, I was focused more on your distinction between whom you should discuss the matrix with.

    agreed, but still a bad habit. makes you miss out on the REALLY good female revelations.

    Personally, I’ve pretty much heard them all at this point. Yawn.

    Like


  109. QT,
    Ah. The Plot Thickens, LOL.

    The “adversarial” tone of the First Two Minutes you talked about is what I would consider one of the “Shit Tests” that Women often put accross; one is to see what you’re made of, if you’ll back down or if you’ll fold. And that’s a Lizard Brain thing for Women, too, so don’t even try to apply Logic or Reason to it. I done tossed both out the window a very long time ago when it coms to these matters.

    Ms. Hoity Toity is an excellent example of this, only in Internet form and it was extended over the course of at least two threads no less that 6 pages long (yes, I know, Mu can be longwinded, LOL; classic Sagittarian trait). She had a lot of Sound & Fury, but I held my ground and calmly picked her apart, calling Balls & Strikes efficiently. I could tell that one, she has serious issues with Daddy, and that two, she hadn’t a Man who could bring her under Subjection.

    But I had to be patient and wait for the proof. Which came today.

    I aint even gonna front. I am still floored by this thing. To paraphrase the words of the great philosopher Rick James, That Game is a Powerful Drug!

    😉

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  110. T-Raw,
    Excellent question sir! LOL! Because I’ve been sharing my revelations on the matter with Zam of late, and no, we have not yet been able to bring him to the light. But that’s OK, because Zam is a Natural. In fact, I would say he put the “N” in “Natural”. As I’ve said before, the guy doesn’t use a cell phone to hold his phone numbers or a little black book-he uses Excel spreadsheets. I’ve seen them. Off the freakin’ hook.

    And I just don’t get it, man. He doesn’t do the vast majority of things Strauss/Mystery, etc et al talk about. Like for example when we met up last Sat to give me my books, we stopped at a few Men’s clothing stores. Now, I think I might have been born with the Peacocking Gene, LOL, because I’ve always loved to look nice. But Zam? Never, in over ten years of knowing him seen him wear a suit-wait, hold up, he wore a suit to my Mom’s funeral. Once. In over a decade.

    Never saw him wear a leather jacket. Never saw him wear dress slacks or a dress shirt-he wears either jeans or khakis, and polo shirts! The guy lives in Wal-Mart, and yet has told me that he stopped counting the number of Women he’s bedded when he hit 500. I mean, he’s on some other ish for real. And to top it all off? For nearly the past year, he’s had a HOTTIE, who’s also Bi, DRIVE HIM BACK AND FORTH TO WORK, and she WAITS FOR HIM TO GET OFF. He’s tried to pay her numerous times, she won’t take the money, and this was when gas was like, damn near $5/gal. Graduated top of her class from one of the local unis. Hot to Death. Even Zam had to recognize, and he’s been with some serious Hotties, I can persnally vouch for the man, I done see many of em.

    *Mu throws up hands shaking head*

    And he’s not the only Natural I know like that, T. In fact, I know another one very well, Dave P., from Haiti, where another Dave we all know is from. In fact, Dave P is like Superman and Dave Alex is like Bizarro. They come from the same place and like Night and Day.

    Dave P is a Pretty Boy, so much so that he could be online at the supermarket, wolfin’ and wearing Dickies having just come from work, and he’ll STILL Cap-Up a Choice Cutie, on the Humbug. WTF?!?

    And last night we were talking about The Game (the book; when I showed him he was floored; he had no idea that such a thing existed), he told me about a recent visit he made to FL, where he and his buddy Jay went to a spot called Shrimpy’s, a bar.

    They go inside and Dave P sees a two set; he goes up and starts spittin’. I gave him an analytical breakdown of what he did and what his “wingman” Jay did, or I should say in the latter’s case, didn’t do.

    Now, check this out…

    Jay’s asking the gals yes/no questions, to which they give yes/no answers and things grind to a halt.

    Dave P comes right behind him and says THE SAME THING, and they give him mad confab. Why? Well, being pretty helps. But that’s not really it, I tell him.

    Its because he’s having a conversation, which is what Women are accustomed to; NOT being Interrogated. Interrogation leads to Intimidation, which breaks down Rapport, which breaks down Trust and which of course, breaks down Comfort.

    No Rapport, no Trust and no Comfort, of course, can only mean, no Fever, and definitely, no Nookie.

    When Men talk we do the Dectective Friday thing, just the facts. Women don’t do that.

    But yea, at any rate, I told Dave P that he’s running on Auto-Pilot, much like me. The difference between him and me, I said, is that now I know WHY I do what I do, and WHY they(the Ladies) respond the way they do. As my man The Merovingian from The Matrix said so very well, knowing Why is the only real sene of power any of us can have; it is what seperates us from them, you from me. Without Why, you are powerless.

    God, I love that scene.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  111. BDD, eyepatches are teh sex because pirates > ninjas. Besides, a woman who doesn’t want to see you and take care of you when you’re ill or injured isn’t worth continuing anything at all with.

    So my advice is similar to others in that you shouldn’t contact her…but I think you shouldn’t speak to her ever again unless you want a dead lay who wouldn’t piss on you to put you out if you were on fire.

    About the changing looks thing, imagine what it would mean to a partner if I suddenly straightened and dyed my hair blonde, and started getting liposuctions. It would mean something totally different than if I say, cut off the locs and got a hair weave, and started directing my fitness program more towards weight loss without concern for muscle mass.

    The latter could be to have a more “professional” image, but the fomer is about altering myself to try to improve my SMV, not just my image to the masses at large.

    …and about a guy’s value raising by female friends being attracted to him, I can’t really identify with it. Looking back on my history, I tend towards guys other women are sexually afraid of.

    One case in particular was the most beautiful man in Haifa until I told him how to average his look so he wouldn’t be so frightening. He’s an Arab actor who used to have this halo of lush, jet-black hair, and eyes like a vampire in a good way. We were pals with a bit of romantic sentiment, but he was addicted to a harpy who treated him like crap.

    He always sat alone, and it was weird that women did not speak to him or of him. He would have seemed invisible except that men acted like jealous bitches around him. They’d hold their girlfriends a little tighter, and start being macho in startling ways. He was likable though, and guys were polite to him despite seething with envy. Only one of my male friends had anything bad to say about him, and that wasn’t really bad. They just guessed that he was too beautiful to be straight, and I took that bet. Heheheh…

    Since I did, I suppose it means more to me what other men think of a man than what women do. I’m not sure what that means about me psychologically, but it has never failed to be the wiser option in real life practice.

    Men know men better than women do. This guy turned out to be a wonderful person to be around, and a real friend, but his girlfriend was just awful. I hope wherever he is now, he at least got a decent woman.

    Like


  112. Nicole,
    The saying in the PUA community goes, “Win the Men, and you win the Women”.

    Seems your sentiments are in line with that line of reason…

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  113. bigdumbdumb wrote:
    Roissy,
    I had been dating (petting) with this girl (36 yr/old recent divorcee) for a couple of weeks. We would make out in the parking lot of my complex, but she would never come up to finish what we started.

    there’s your first mistake. you let her lead you around by the nose. you gave her free makeouts in the parking lot and she got to go home delighted with the attention and proud that she didn’t have to give it up to string you along. plus, anytime a woman hesitates to close the deal with you, it usually means you are not leading her properly. you need to keep running game until penis is in vagina. general rule of thumb: don’t have extended makeouts with chicks until you have her back at your place, where it’s a short trip to the bedroom.

    look man, she’s a 36 year old divorcee. this type of woman should not be a difficult muff to crack. you need to pinch yourself every time you start thinking her status is higher than it really is.

    Cut to Halloween, I get in an accident that requires some minor plastic surgery (rebuild my nose and eye socket floor). The surgeons said they couldn’t tell the extent of the damage w/o looking the x-rays (superficially, i’m the same)

    This chick talks to me still (txts at least twice a day), but now never wants to see me.

    if you weren’t hideously deformed by the accident, then that’s not the issue. chicks dig scars. the most likely explanation is that you never quite shed the stink of beta when you were seeing her, and in the time apart she reevaluated you and decided you came up short. a woman’s attraction window doesn’t stay open for long, and it can be quickly slammed shut.

    ignore her texting. that’s just her extracting the last penny of beta tribute from you in the form of asexual attention. and you are letting her castrate you. she is probably at this moment banging a jerk deep in her ass while you ineffectually text her emoticons with a sad yearning in your heart.
    i say it again: 36 years old and a divorcee! if i could slap you across the face from here, i would.

    I don’t know what to do. I want to bang it out cause it’s like I ran a race and never finished.

    she knows that. and that is why she will never let you.

    I guess she thinks I look horrible, but she can see that i haven’t changed except for the temporary eye patch on my FB page.

    i repeat: it’s not the eye patch. stop looking for feeble excuses to exculpate your beta behavior. do you want me to award you the david alexander stamp of disapproval?

    OR I missed my chance prior to halloween and I need to just forget about it.

    this is what your gut tells you. listen to it. it’s almost always right.

    We haven’t talked in 5 days and my boy says I need to keep quiet. . .that she’ll be begging for me in a couple of months.

    there’s no guarantee of that, but cutting off contact with her would be a step in the right direction.

    Feels weird not to say anything before x-mas or new years.

    the fuck? is she your GF? no. then why the fuck do you care about sending happy holiday cheer her way?

    I was thinking, “In case I don’t see you. Have a MC and Happy NY”

    oh jesus oh christ oh sweet fancy poopsmith. for the love of all that is testicular, don’t do this. just… don’t. all you would be doing is confirming her belief that you are a tepid little squirmy beta bitchboy with tiny balls. you don’t want her to think that, do you? no? then do as i say.

    the hole is too deep. any more action on your part is going to dig it deeper. your only hope, if there is to ever be a chance in the future, is to make her feel some pain by withdrawing your attentions post haste and going out to find another woman.

    really, truly, i speak from the heart. i’m here to help. however cruelly.

    Like


  114. Men know men better than women do.

    In a funny way, that’s actually true.

    Women in their twenties tend to know one kind of man only. The type of guy they’re attracted to enough to let them pump and dump them.

    Men, on the other hand know their buddies – and they’re usually not the type of guys that gets anal at hello.

    Hence the hilarity when women and men casually converse about the other sex.

    Women will bitch about a small minority of men, thinking that’s what “all men are like”.

    Men will shake their heads in disbelief, and wonder how all these women can “miss” the fact that there are so many guys who actually do all the sweet, kind stuff they claim they want to have.

    Once women get past age 26 and start losing their attractiveness by the hour, things tend to change.

    By that time they’ve gagged themselves on miles of alpha cock and their need for stability starts dominating their feelings. That’s the moment they discover the benefits of Joe Average.

    They finally get all the attention, gifts and affection that the alphas she ran after for so many years refused to give them.

    Takes about six months until the full effect sets in and all that bribing for sex dries their pussies up completely. Now they’ll bitch about her partner. Devoid of any good reason (it;s the bad sex after all), they’ll use anything that comes to mind (he’s too lazy, too unappreciative, whatever).

    Another six months and that urge for EARNED cock will be big enough for them to text (“innocently”) one of her former alphas, hoping he will ram their ass while pulling their hair and calling names. Anything but missionary with eye contact and kisses! He’ll do. And then cease to be interested in her again.

    And that’s when the complaining about men being hound dogs will set in again.

    By taking age and type/level of bitching about men into account you can tell exactly where a woman is at in that cycle.

    Like


  115. QT,
    Just wanted to holla back on your pulling back from dude’s kiss attempt: he did it wrong. Probably got scared.

    Desmond Morris says that there are about a dozen steps to this thing; Mystery distilled it into a powerful, GI Joe w/The Kung-Fu Grip type punch. But the trick is not to miss steps. Otherwise, girlfriend ain’t gonna feel right, and do like you did-put the brakes on. And when they’re on, dude’s out.

    Am I right or wrong?

    So yea, he messed up, but hopefully he’ll learn from it and take the L as one to grow on. Happens to the best of us.

    Going to your other point about you knowing what was happening and you couldn’t either stop yourself, and/or was comfortable about “being led by our nose”…

    Its my contention that Women WANT THIS. Now I could be wrong, but I try to deal with the World as it actually is, not as I would like it to be. I try very hard to seperate what people say, and what they do. And in that regard no one’s got Womenfolk beat. You wanna go stark raving mad?-try making the leap between a Woman’s actions and her statements.

    I could go all into the deepness of it but I’ll hold here. Besides, there’s some other things I wanted to get to, and I’m still gathering my thoughts in the back of my brain for later.

    Thanks again for the honesty, QT.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  116. Speaking of wanting cosmetic surgery when a woman is thinking of getting out of a relationship, I am acquainted with a young women who fits this mold exactly.

    A younger women (22) married to an “older” man (30) who madly loves her, she is starting to get bored with the situation about 1 year after their first child is born. He is a middle manager and works very long hours, and is tired a lot. She is thinking about separating from him. She is being actively pursued by a man with a very wealthy father. She is beautiful, and although she has had a child, she has returned to a perfect figure. However, she is still very flat chested.

    She is dropping hints to me about needing breast augmentation.

    My attitude is that if her husband truly loves her, forget breast augmentation and work on the relationship. It is sad but true that aside from your parents, many people will find that they can go through life without finding one, not even one person, who really loves them. If you find even one such person, think long and hard before you dump them, IMHO.

    My definition of love is simple. A person in love will kill or be killed, without question or hesitation, to save the one they love.

    So, thanks to my family orientation, and to Roissy’s insightful comments on this subject, I will resist the temptation to help this lady, of whom I am quite fond, to get her surgery, and will urge her to mend her relationship with her husband.

    BTW, no need to imagine anything prurient here. This lady could be my daughter. Or, my mistress. Or whatever.

    Like


  117. Joel, I have a strong belief that like goes to like. It doesn’t really matter whether or not you help her in some way that you feel is helpful. She either appreciates love and loves her husband, or she doesn’t.

    If she doesn’t then she is a perfect match for a guy who would be pursuing her while she’s in a marriage with a (presumably) monogamous guy who isn’t mistreating her. They belong together. The guy with a heart needs to be set free to find a woman with a heart.

    …but then again, perhaps the reason her husband got into that situation is because he was selecting for looks and not character. If in that case he gets his heart broken, it is only because he was fool enough to give it to someone who doesn’t really care about him.

    I see men in these cases the same as I see women who chase bad boys expecting them to change. There is a distinct difference between a loving touch and a phony one that if it wasn’t clear by the first kiss, is blatantly obvious by the first shag. The only people who can say they were truly thrown off is those who were actually in loving relationships wherein the partner became ill, depressed, or had some other real reason to sabotage.

    Someone who will happily bang someone who doesn’t give a flying fart about them can’t very well complain when she proves it some other way. Apparently there was something in it for him that no matter what he says, was the reason he could tolerate such a cold fish.

    So letting her go do whatever she has to do is best all around partly so she can upgrade, and partly because trophies are easily replaceable. If the husband just wanted someone pretty, and doesn’t really care if she’s strong, he can just kick this one to the curb, and go by another cheap hoe.

    Like


  118. Great reply, Nic. I especially liked this bit:

    “…but then again, perhaps the reason her husband got into that situation is because he was selecting for looks and not character.”

    Both sexes attribute positive moral qualities to the beautiful but men are far worse than women at this. They seem shocked, embittered and betrayed when they discover that beautiful women are no more giving, kind or compassionate than plain janes. Women learn this lesson early in life but many men get shocked by it well into old age.

    Like


  119. Mu, thinking back on the incident in question, if I had to describe the way I felt, I would say – exposed. We were leaving a restaurant where we had met for drinks. The place was practically empty and I said I needed to go. We walked out to the street, and that is where the attempt was made, “in transition”, if you will. I pulled away and he actually said “That wasn’t a very good kiss…maybe you should try again.” like straight out of the book. He had his hands on my waist at this point, and all I remember is that alarm bells were going off in my head to get away from him. I shook my head and he said “why not?” and I said “when I’m ready to kiss you, you’ll know” I gave him a hug, said thank you, and walked to my car by myself.

    And I have to agree in part with Nicole & hello – my male friends automatically attribute all these great qualities to the attractive women that they meet, only to be let down later.

    I think men learn too late that outer beauty does not equal inner beauty. If you find a good balance, male or female….I say “keeper”.

    Like


  120. Well, I think in this case the husband got a personable, lively, intelligent and fertile young wife. She gave him a son and I am sure much high quality companionship. And, he isn’t rich. She certainly was not marrying for money.

    So, he may have overlooked that things weren’t perfect in light of the other benefits of the marriage. That would not be unreasonable. The expectation would be, on his part, that she would come to appreciate, and perhaps love, him more as their marriage matured and as they raised a family together. Weaving together a successful family, which would include inlaws, nieces, nephews, brothers, etc, would strengthen the marriage. Marriage is not just between two people, but intertwines two or more families.

    Many men think that if they treat a woman well, she will love them more. That may have been her expectation, too.

    Roissy of course would beg to differ.

    I suspect Roissy is correct on this.

    Maybe her husband needs to get game. He cried when she told him she was thinking of separation. That’s what love will do to a man, which is why men like Roissy avoid love like the plague.

    Men like me, who never seem to learn, fall in love from time to time. We accept that the sensation of love, even if just an illusion, is ample compensation for the bitter disappointment that will likely come. Perhaps the happiest memory of my life was a short dream in which I was blissfully reunited briefly with an ex-love. The dream was so wonderful that I found myself saying to myself, in this dream, “This can’t be true. Life is never this good.” at which point I woke up. Damn my prefrontal lobe.

    IMHO, if you have never completely loved anyone, believe me, you do not know what true joy is. So, I have plenty of sympathy for the husband. And, I worry about the wife. She is a bit young to understand such things.

    But, like the logo says, Pretty lies die here, or some such.

    Like


  121. “Men like me, who never seem to learn, fall in love from time to time. We accept that the sensation of love, even if just an illusion, is ample compensation for the bitter disappointment that will likely come. ”

    Joel, maybe you’ve just been unlucky in love. That happens to women too.

    Like


  122. Joel says, “Well, I think in this case the husband got a personable, lively, intelligent and fertile young wife.”

    I’m sure he did. What he didn’t get however, is a partner who loves him enough not to allow more than light flattery from other men.

    I’m not a hard core monogamist, but if I understand this is important to my partner, I take it equally seriously if not more, because I understand the logical reasons behind it, not just the administrative. So I’m not trying to be overly judgemental. If someone is so flippant about their promises, their livliness doesn’t make up for their whorishness.

    “She gave him a son and I am sure much high quality companionship.”

    All whores on retirement make a baby and/or become financially dependent in order to entrap their target.

    “And, he isn’t rich. She certainly was not marrying for money.”

    No, she married for stability.

    See…the mistake that most guys who fall into that trap make, is that they assume that a hoe is always going for guys who they consider higher status/income than they (the guy) are. The hoe is actually going for someone more financially secure than she is.

    The expiration age for hoes is between 23-25…younger in places (like Japan and Thailand) where there are many available between the ages of 13-19. So a hoe starts looking to retire when she’s first starting to age or noticing the financial rewards of marriage as opposed to being a receptionist dinner dater.

    What your friend is to her is the ladder who allows her to keep a stable situation while flirting with wealthier men. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the husband introduced him.

    If he were honest with himself about her being a hoe, he would pimp her as his ladder, but he’s probably going to be heartbroken and sabotage the whole thing.

    See, I don’t think there’s anything morally wrong about being a hoe or falling for one, but blame games annoy me.

    “So, he may have overlooked that things weren’t perfect in light of the other benefits of the marriage.”

    Yeah, benefits like cute kids, having other guys his age look at him with jealousy because they want to shag his wife…Lots of good reasons to marry a hoe, but it’s a bad idea to deny her nature.

    Such a waste of fine punani. Once you realize the importance fools place on looks, they’re easy to exploit. It’s a weakness most men have, bless nature and porn.

    “That would not be unreasonable. The expectation would be, on his part, that she would come to appreciate, and perhaps love, him more as their marriage matured and as they raised a family together.”

    That’s a silly thing to expect. Someone loves you or doesn’t. They take you seriously or they don’t. If someone doesn’t love you enough before they live with you, they’re not going to love you more after they’ve heard you poot, smelled your morning breath, and watched you age right before their very eyes.

    “Weaving together a successful family, which would include inlaws, nieces, nephews, brothers, etc, would strengthen the marriage. Marriage is not just between two people, but intertwines two or more families.”

    Are they from Pakistan or something?

    “Many men think that if they treat a woman well, she will love them more. That may have been her expectation, too.

    Roissy of course would beg to differ. ”

    On this, one of few points Roissy and I agree on, so do I. You cannot turn a hoe type into a wife type, or vise versa. You have to work with what there is.

    …and if you treat a hoe like a wife, you’re not really respecting her. You’re kind of wasting her talent and your emotions.

    “I suspect Roissy is correct on this.”

    Tattoo it on whichever hand you wank with for training purposes.

    “Maybe her husband needs to get game. He cried when she told him she was thinking of separation. That’s what love will do to a man, which is why men like Roissy avoid love like the plague.”

    No, Roissy avoids love because he can.

    Someone who has loved knows it can’t really be avoided…only coped with.

    “Men like me, who never seem to learn, fall in love from time to time. We accept that the sensation of love, even if just an illusion, is ample compensation for the bitter disappointment that will likely come.”

    If you expect nothing, it is impossible to be disappointed.

    Love is more than a sensation. Even at its base biological level, without any poetry or philosophy to make it prettier, it is the fact of bonding. It’s the reason our babies aren’t born walking and eating solid food. We love them even though they’ve done nothing to deserve it.

    So in love, it’s best to separate the fact of it from the expression of it. Loving someone needs to not mean that they will be in your life.

    …and if you find out the person isn’t who you thought they were you’ll have to understand the person you loved wasn’t real. It’s like a fantasy character you make up in your mind with their assistance. It’s easier to let go of a scam artist when you call it what it is, and not small things one overlooked.

    Someone who will dump someone for any reason other than abuse or infidelity or to protect them from harm, never loved them at all.

    “Perhaps the happiest memory of my life was a short dream in which I was blissfully reunited briefly with an ex-love. The dream was so wonderful that I found myself saying to myself, in this dream, “This can’t be true. Life is never this good.” at which point I woke up. Damn my prefrontal lobe.”

    I consider any dreams about my exes to be nightmares and try to wake up immediately.

    “IMHO, if you have never completely loved anyone, believe me, you do not know what true joy is. So, I have plenty of sympathy for the husband. And, I worry about the wife. She is a bit young to understand such things.

    But, like the logo says, Pretty lies die here, or some such.”

    Well…from my perspective, it doesn’t look like either of them loved each other. She was his dream that doesn’t exist, and he was her retirement plan until she got a better offer.

    Like


  123. Hey MQ, when a girl starts mentioning her friends’ boyfriends to you, talks about getting a boobjob, pushes your kisses away on account of her lipstick, and criticizes your blunders, is it insecurity and resentment on your part to be suspicious of her?

    Where did this come from? Weird. Do you have big problems with this kind of behavior from your women?

    Tell me: when you eventually walk in on your GF slobbing some other guy’s schlong, do you shrug and tell yourself that it was probably something you did and that it was your insecurity that must have driven her into the arms of another man?

    I did have a girlfriend cheat on me once. We had to break up. She tried to get back together with me like six months later, but I didn’t have any of it. She eventually got married and has a kid now.

    Like


  124. “Many men think that if they treat a woman well, she will love them more. That may have been her expectation, too.”

    Many women think that giving their man everything they want and making their lives subservient to their men’s will earn love. Most often the men get bored or lose respect for said women and leave. Sacrificing to earn elusive love is a personality type, not a gender difference. And Nicole is right it’s a load of crap. The fact that he threw himself into working so tirelessly for her suggests to me that he knew she didn’t really love him.

    “You cannot turn a hoe type into a wife type, or vise versa.”

    Turning a sexy alpha into a monogamous husband/father is also a bit trying.

    Like


  125. Well Ladies, Mu has the following to contribute to your already splendid comments…

    Training oneself to resist Feminine Beauty is HARD, but well worth the effort. It’ll save a Man a lot of trouble and heartache.

    I find that often, guys aren’t clear on exactly what they want out of a woman. You gotta get crystal clear, ruthlessly. If you want a nice piece, get it. If you want a repeat customer, get it. If you want a Wifey, get it. Whatever you’re after fellas, get it.

    Just be real clear on exactly WHAT you want, before anything jumps off.

    Then, the next thing you gotta do, is you gotta put it on the scales and weigh the pros and cons. And see if one is way too heavier than the other, and if you’re willing to handle it.

    A really pretty babe is gonna require superior Jedi skills in order to keep her in check. If you ain’t built like that, if you ain’t strong enough, you’d best stay back.
    And Roissy’s right, Women can and often do some ill ish. You bedda recognize. Thinking she all that in the looks department don’t make her immune from NONE OF THAT. Indeed, if anything, she’s more likely to get outta pocket, not less. See above.

    If you in the market for a Wifey, in Mu’s view, you gotta sitdown and make some tradeoffs.

    In this day and age, looking good, especially for Women, ain’t hard at all. So that’s not a big deal. We done all seen those “makeover” shows. They do wonders.

    Same deal with the sexual department; the old adage about Ho’s and Housewives is something I only *half* believe; its true that turning a Ho into Wifey is like getting a leopard to change its spots.

    But when it comes to the other end, or other side of things, my view is that every Woman’s got a Ho deep inside her, fighting to get out-and its Man’s Mission on this Earth to tap that. If you’re in the Market for a Wifey, the last thing you need to be thinking about is the Sex-if you got a tight connection with the Force, you’ll be able to draw her Inner Ho out in due course of time. She can be trained. Trust me.

    Loyalty, devotion to family, thrift w/finances, strong skills of Cookery, loves children & family, etc. These are the things you need to be thinking FIRST & FOREMOST. Many a Plain Jane are only too willing to do all that I have said here and above. If you’re handling your business and executing on cue, believe me, she’ll only be too eager to please. Women are like that.

    Remember Fellas, you are the Sun, you shine your Light throughout the Universe; your Woman is the Moon, she reflects you. Her behavior is a direct reflection of you. Good or bad. An excellent case in point is the current brohaha out in Chitown that R just wrote about. Look at Wifey in that situation-she DON’T reflect dude?

    So, in closing fellas, if you want Wifey, you gots to take a strong, long look in the Mirror. Get clear, get focused, and don’t get it twisted.

    On the other hand, if you want a Hot Babe for a night or three, get your Timing Right-dont be that dude who tried to land one on the kisser w/QT “in transition”-Ouch!

    *Mu shakes head*

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  126. It is truly an amazing thing how cruel and ruthless a female can become once she has lost interest in a man.
    It must be a hard wired behavior so that she can move on to the next alpha without wasting any precious time. BDD don’t mistake that woman for anything else that the way she has behaved, like a cold, calculating robot =) Usually you assume that she is not special, and until she proves to you that she is special (actually she can’t prove that she is special, she can only prove that she is nothing special by being flakey) anything that is less than impressive should get her FIRED.

    Like


  127. QT,
    Been thinking about the set you described. Dude was alllllllllll outta pocket. Doomed from da giddyup.

    Why do I say that?

    Because Women are Heard Animals; they don’t like to stand out. This is why its very rare to see a Woman go to a club/bar/etc alone, they almost always have someone, and very often, several “someones”, with them. Women are much more socially inclined than are Men on average-which explains why Men who work on their social skills will invariably do better with Women than Men who don’t. Social Intelligence is a highly regarded thing among Women.

    OK, the place was damn near empty. No good. This places all the focus on you and dude. And its at night.

    I never do stuff like that-isolating a Woman that early on. All of my meetings/dates/etc, *especially early on* was ALWAYS in the Daytime, in fact as close to High Noon as I could swing it.

    And they were always bustling with People. Women like that. It makes them feel safe. You ain’t trying to jump their bones. Yet, heh heh. But seriously, yea, safety is a big deal with Women, rightly so.

    So I always did the cafe thing, there’s umpteen million of em here in Philly. And we get a chance to chit chat, or as we call in the Hood, “Bust it Up”. Low pressure, bright and sunny (I never do dates/meetings when its raining, snowing, etc; always when its Sunny out, or at the least nice and clear out), lots of people (read, other Women) milling around and so on. All Women desire Security. Give em that and you’re off to a good start.

    So, on the basis of you’ve said, QT, dude was outta pocket from the get go. Then he missed/skipped steps. Then he had bad timing(!!!). No wonder you gave him such a parting shot.

    For me, I don’t feel comfortable making overt signs of affection out in public, beyond holding hands and light pecks on the cheek, stuff like that. Serious lip lockin and groping is a serious turnoff for me. You can convey caring and affection in public without going into all that.

    This conveys that you got what we call “hometrainin'” and for real, its in short supply among fellas these days. So that gives you a higher value to the Female. It also does the other things I mentioned above. Some of thee best lays I ever had were when I acted right, gave the lady security and respect, built rapport, trust and comfort and so on.

    I see dude’s got a lot yet to learn.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  128. come an impossibly long way; years are my months

    know that.

    goal = mastery.

    Time = ally.

    Like


  129. — oh sweet fancy poopsmith. for the love of all that is testicular, don’t do this.

    A fine example of cursing in the English language. From me that’s a compliment, given that the Slavic language family is, and always will be, an undisputed champion of virtuoso vituperation.

    — A younger women (22) married to an “older” man (30) who madly loves her

    The word “madly” suggests that that he lacks the virtue of self-control. Love should be strong, but not sloppy.

    It is for a man to yield to feelings of emotional dependence on a woman, get gooey-eyed, and so on. We’re human too and probably still have some buried memories of sucking on that loving, milk-giving tit.

    … but yielding your feelings to “loving madly” — that’s self-indulgence that loses you the girl. She’s your lover and wife, not your blankie. You’re her rock, not her adoring puppy.

    — However, she is still very flat chested.

    That’s a good thing!

    — She is dropping hints to me about needing breast augmentation.

    For your own sake, I hope you said ‘no!’ The eighth circle — the second innermost — of the Inferno is for givers of false council.

    — I will resist the temptation to help this lady, of whom I am quite fond, to get her surgery,

    Whew, you did say ‘no.’

    — Loyalty, devotion to family, thrift w/finances, strong skills of Cookery, loves children & family, etc.

    Clio recently made a point that struck me as a good one: young guys overlook pretty girls who would make great LTR partners in favor of hot and exciting biches who would otherwise be disastrous as mates.

    — I find that often, guys aren’t clear on exactly what they want out of a woman. You gotta get crystal clear, ruthlessly.

    This makes tons of sense to us guys over 30, who either knew this stuff from early on, or figured it out eventually.

    The thing that interests me is how do you pass on this intel to a kid who is young/dum/& full of c*m and thinks he knows best.

    — perhaps the reason her husband got into that situation is because he was selecting for looks and not character.

    For LTRs, always select a girl who is just over your attractiveness threshold, and with the best personality possible.

    — So letting her go do whatever she has to do is best all around partly so she can upgrade, and partly because trophies are easily replaceable.

    There is a kid in the equation, which complicates things.

    — Maybe her husband needs to get game.

    Game does a marriage good, as Roissy had put it. I don’t know if that marriage is salvageable in terms of the wife ever loving her husband. But now that they have a child, there is somethign to be said for adults doing the right thing, which sometimes isn’t a fun thing.

    Plus with game, there may still be something to save in that marriage. She did, after all, marry him and have presumably his child.

    — Men like me, who never seem to learn, fall in love from time to time.

    To invert that old U.S. Navy recruiting slogan, love is not just an adventure, it’s a job.

    To get 60+ years of mileage out of love, the fluffy feelings need to be supported by a foundation that is not fluffy.

    — She tried to get back together with me like six months later, but I didn’t have any of it.

    When it’s over, it’s over. Sometimes that’s easier said than done, but that’s reality speaking.

    All of my meetings/dates/etc, *especially early on* was ALWAYS in the Daytime, in fact as close to High Noon as I could swing it.

    That’s been my practice too. Not only do you avoid making her feeling pressured, but you also build mystery, since she wonders what it is you do on Friday and Saturday nights.

    Like


  130. Above: “It is easy for a man to yield to feelings of emotional dependence on a woman,”

    Like


  131. PA shares a lot of wisdom.

    One sentence from his comment that strikes me too: “young guys overlook pretty girls who would make great LTR partners in favor of hot and exciting biches who would otherwise be disastrous as mates.”

    Now, here’s why it strikes me. There’s of course always been a general tendency for young men to let their dicks lead them around and cloud their judgment. But something seems to have changed in recent years. In the past you either outgrew it, or you learned better. In any case, it generally just happened that a young guy got over the delusion that the hot chick was always and everywhere a worthwhile thing to pursue.

    These days, at least judging by some commenters around here, many young guys seem (at least those interested in one day settling down with a woman) to have real trouble reconciling themselves to the fact that no woman is perfect. Some young guys seem really, really miffed about the fact that there is no woman out there who is part callgirl, part great cook, part friend, part intellectual partner, etc. They talk about “settling,” they’re enraged, they feel like life has lied to them, or is keeping the goodies from them, or something.

    How to explain this? I’m just guessing but: Society has spoiled and catered to youngsters generally in recent decades in ways that makes Boomers look like ascetics? Thus creating a previously-unseen degree of entitlement? Porn — at least viewed in huge quantities and at very young ages — really does have a way of shaping young men’s tastes and expectations? Thus creating young men who are really enraged to discover that porn is a fantasy and real women bear only some resemblance to the gals in porn?

    Any further hunches from anyone?

    Like


  132. @Michael above,
    I absolutely agree with your suspicion that porn (available in unlimited quantities now) generates an unrealistic entitlement attitude in younger men. They feel entitled to their fantasies.

    One additional factor. Juvenilization is allowed and accepted far too long in our culture. “Settling” is a process of maturity. Mature adults settle as they realize that a complex flawed partner is more realistic, challenging, and exciting than their fantasies.

    Like


  133. LOL one word… Neoteny…..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny its just an extension of what allowed us to get out of the trees… and into the concrete jungle…..

    Like


  134. High quantities of pr0n are probably a factor but I question the promise that young guys are feel all that entitled. What we’re seeing in young guys is not so much entitlement as frustration.

    This frustration comes from the fact tons of young guys are elbowed out of the market. That’s always been the case to some extent, since there is always a bit of soft polygamy going on, and because guys in ther 20s-40s chase women in their 20s.

    But today, the obesity epidemic has compounded the problem by removing even more women out of the pool of eligible girlfriends. And this is how a critical mass of young guys got shafted.

    Guys don’t have unrealistic expectations. It’s just that reasonable-looking women are in a short supply than normal, due to the obesity epidemic.

    Like


  135. Is the obesity epidemic limited to, or significantly more prevalent in, women?

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  136. @Gordon,
    men prefer to think that their own obesity is less relevant than women’s

    I used the word “juvenilization” above. A better term would have been “slacker immaturity”. Our culture excuses and accepts slacker immaturity far into the twenties. This is at odds with “settling”, which is a process of maturity.

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  137. Women will overlook a man’s obesity (to a point) if he has other compensating virtues. Women regard Tony Soprano and the singer Meat Loaf when he was younger as sex symbols. It doesn’t work in the other direction.

    In my observation, yes, obesity is more prevalent among women than men. I rarely see men who had lost all pretense to posessing human-like contours. Women: everyday.

    I don’t disagree with what you’re saying about immaturity but the original subject was men’s supposedly unrealistic expectations, not immaturity.

    Like


  138. Gentlemen,
    Excellent comments, all. I’d like to respond quickly (for now), if I may:

    Mike B: as always, you’re on point. However, I’d have to agree with PA to the extent that I don’t think Porn, alone, is the culprit of what we see. Afterall, Porn’s been around and a lot more prevalent, as long as there have been Males, and a lot more than we’d like to admit in polite company.

    I think the answer lies in the Entitlement Society-entitlement, I should say, without the requisite hard work. The same guys who hold such a view you wouldn’t find dead working in a factory during their Summers off from school.

    Gordon: yup, Obesity definitely is a Female problem in the USA. Roissy has talked about this recently in the Visualizing Omega thread. Check it out. And I do think it factors in here.

    But we can’t set aside the familar factors either: Urban living, the Pill, Abortions and No Fault Divorce, all of which heavil favor Women, and indirectly benefit Men, otherwise there’d be no Game, or none to speak of. So we’re in a bit of a pickle here.

    PA: excellent remarks. Glad to see we’re on the same page. Experience is the only antidote to youngbucks I’m afraid.

    But Hope springs Eternal, that one of my youngbucks will take heed. I was just telling one of them, Sammy, about the importance of not even thinking about getting married until at least 35. For a Man, getting married to soon isn’t any good. For the obvious and not so obvious reasons.

    And I love the Navy quote! You were in? I never served but come from three generations of Marines…so I guess you could say that I have the “Marine Gene” LOL.

    Great stuff, Men. By all means, continue…

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  139. And I love the Navy quote! You were in?

    I was in the Army during my early-mid 20s.

    Like


  140. anony:
    men prefer to think that their own obesity is less relevant than women’s

    that’s because it is.
    ya doofus.

    I used the word “juvenilization” above. A better term would have been “slacker immaturity”. Our culture excuses and accepts slacker immaturity far into the twenties. This is at odds with “settling”, which is a process of maturity.

    slackers are simply men reacting in a very rational way to the reality that marriage as currently constituted and overseen by the legal system is a raw deal for them.
    hope this helps.

    Like


  141. PA,
    OK, that’s what’s up. Oh yea, biggups on your point about Women needng mystery. When I first heard that years ago, I thought it was ridiculous.

    Then I had an Experience moment. Things changed after that.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  142. @roissy
    A definition:

    Obesity is a set of habits….and genetic propensity. What ego-intact woman would choose for her desired children to be influenced by, and model after a prospective father with the habits of obesity?

    I understand what men prefer to believe, but I don’t see it in reality.

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  143. “But today, the obesity epidemic has compounded the problem by removing even more women out of the pool of eligible girlfriends. And this is how a critical mass of young guys got shafted.”

    Compared to us the Japanese obesity problem is non-existent yet there are enough frustrated guys there to make a market for sexbots.

    What about European countries where people are far less obese? Men who periodically post here from those countries do not rhapsodize about how happy they are with slender yet otherwise unremarkable women.

    Like


  144. what ego-intact woman would choose for her desired children to be influenced by, and model after a prospective father with the habits of obesity?

    your first mistake is assuming women choose what men to sleep with based on his potential as a role model for their hypothetical future children together.
    your second mistake is believing a man’s fatness is a negative hit to his ability to be a good fatherly role model. hint: it is not, when compared to far more important criteria like his financial acumen, alpha behavior, and self-confident swagger.
    your third mistake is being you. too bad you’re stuck with that one.

    I understand what men prefer to believe, but I don’t see it in reality.

    silly anony. that’s because you don’t want to see it.

    Compared to us the Japanese obesity problem is non-existent yet there are enough frustrated guys there to make a market for sexbots.

    female obesity is but one factor contributing to beta male frustration.
    female economic parity is another.

    What about European countries where people are far less obese?

    far less? last i checked, the obesity rates in several euro countries were going up (and out). the UK has a higher rate than the US.

    Men who periodically post here from those countries do not rhapsodize about how happy they are with slender yet otherwise unremarkable women.

    multifactorial causation.
    and selection effect.

    Like


  145. Mu, I would advise caution in trying to bring out a wife type’s inner hoe.

    I repeat: Whores do not like sex.

    Whores, when they do have sex, have calculated sex. This is done just to please their partner and get something (other than sex) that they want.

    I forget the name of the movie, but there’s a film about two thugs in the UK in which the mafia guy they have to kidnap, tells them what it’s like to shag a gangster’s wife. She will do anything and everything…except enjoy herself.

    This, you do not want to bring out of a woman who is a wife type. Though she may do as you ask, this will break something that you won’t be able to fix.

    If a woman views sex with you as a sharing, bonding experience, you don’t want to reduce yourself in her eyes to being a client. Whatever small part of her may be a hoe, thinks of clients as suckers, and you don’t want to be that. She’ll be looking for or at least thinking about someone who she classes as a stronger man.

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  146. Anony and Roissy, when you’re ready to stop being tools, you can open your eyes to the fact that obesity doesn’t prevent someone from contributing to humanity. Self pity however, can cause a person to be quite useless.

    In my own pursuit of better physical condition, I try to keep in mind that all of it is worthless if I don’t continue to learn and grow in other ways…and it is important to remember that we are all mortal.

    Be careful who you look down on. The fat kid you pity today might be the orderly who’s strong enough to lift your old carcass from the bed to the toilet tomorrow.

    …or the nerd who figures out a way to get rid of your cancer while allowing you to keep your prostate or your breast.

    Like


  147. Anony and Roissy, when you’re ready to stop being tools, you can open your eyes to the fact that obesity doesn’t prevent someone from contributing to humanity.

    i’ve let your deliberate stupidity slide once too often.
    not anymore.
    here’s a clue: no one ever claimed fat asses can’t contribute to humanity. what i write on the subject is quite clear — fat fucks suffer a negative hit to their sexual attractiveness. this is especially true for fat women, for whom their visual appearance counts almost entirely toward their final score.
    i will say this. fat shits can’t contribute as effectively to humanity as they could if they were in shape.

    Be careful who you look down on. The fat kid you pity today might be the orderly who’s strong enough to lift your old carcass from the bed to the toilet tomorrow.

    and someday instant karma’s gonna get us.
    tell it to chairman mao.

    Like


  148. @ T. AKA Ricky Raw

    yeah… i feel you. i could tone down the trolling a bit but dude, they’re WOMEN. all i need to know is that copious amounts of estrogen are flowing through their bodies. nuff said…

    the boot goes thump!

    Like


  149. I could tone down the trolling a bit but

    Wait WHAT?! Dude, never say that again. Your trolling is awesome.

    Like


  150. @ Michael Blowhard

    These days, at least judging by some commenters around here, many young guys seem (at least those interested in one day settling down with a woman) to have real trouble reconciling themselves to the fact that no woman is perfect. Some young guys seem really, really miffed about the fact that there is no woman out there who is part callgirl, part great cook, part friend, part intellectual partner, etc. They talk about “settling,” they’re enraged, they feel like life has lied to them, or is keeping the goodies from them, or something.

    When I stumbled into game in my mid-late twenties, I went from zero success… to enormous success and the possibility of unlimited success. Given the seeming possibility of running up an infinite escalator, in retrospect I can say that I had unrealistic expectations.

    I eventually learned better decided that I wanted a high-quality “Wifey” (hilarious term Mu!) and PA’s strategy. I wanted other things in life, and didn’t feel like engaging in some endlessly quixotic search. Mortality meant that if I wanted to finish school and get on with building the glorious empire and a dynasty that I had planned from childhood, I had to take care of other things in the sooner rather than the distant later. I would otherwise dissipate my talents and not accomplish Great Things.

    I’m on my way in all counts… but I didn’t get ‘perfection’ in my woman. Only very, very, very good.

    I’m guessing that many readers of this blog are in a similar situation. They’ve started from nothing and are now in the candy store. The dazzling spectacle is overwhelming… but in having their nostrils flare with the heady rush of plenty, they don’t yet realize that there isn’t something that is “perfect” for all times and all places.

    To many guys here, I think that’s where they’re coming from when they think of “settling”. It’s not necessarily a lifetime of entitlement — indeed the opposite is true. What is is merely the understandable need to drink to bursting after a near-endless drought…. and the subsequent realization that time is fleeting in this mortal coil.

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  151. ugh:

    You’re surely not wrong all the time, but living in such a state of self-centered distrust must be difficult. Can you ever just relax and be in love?

    Yes — but only when the gonads stop pumping out that cherished T and the Big Fade commences…

    Like


  152. Rick:

    Chic, clearly you arent getting taken care of. You need a D.

    Cosign

    No girls, you wouldnt magically be hotter as a blonde.

    Marilyn

    Monroe

    Like


  153. “i’ve let your deliberate stupidity slide once too often.”

    Oooo….

    “not anymore.”

    OOooOOooo….

    “here’s a clue: no one ever claimed fat asses can’t contribute to humanity.”

    Not in those exact words…

    “what i write on the subject is quite clear — fat fucks suffer a negative hit to their sexual attractiveness.”

    …to you.

    “this is especially true for fat women, for whom their visual appearance counts almost entirely toward their final score.”

    …with you.

    “i will say this. fat shits can’t contribute as effectively to humanity as they could if they were in shape.”

    :: just shaking my head ::

    “and someday instant karma’s gonna get us.
    tell it to chairman mao.”

    Well, karma’s been very good to me, and I have no regrets.

    As I’ve said before, with the self pitying, it’s never enough that people you consider inferior accept the reality of your opinion. They have to kiss your ass, or you’re not satisfied.

    If the comments here are all about kissing your ass then I might have made a mistake in returning.

    Like


  154. Michael Blowhard:

    These days, at least judging by some commenters around here, many young guys seem (at least those interested in one day settling down with a woman) to have real trouble reconciling themselves to the fact that no woman is perfect. […] How to explain this?

    I’d say the answer is very simple, and fundamentally similar for both sexes. One of the Big Lies of our age is that everyone should expect to find a soulmate with whom it’s possible to form a permanent monogamous commitment based purely on honest love and attraction, which both partners will consider as more enjoyable than any imaginable alternative. In reality, this attitude is as unreal as if everyone expected to have a job that’s so enjoyable that they would keep doing it for fun even if they won the lottery. Yes, some people are lucky enough to have it, but it’s not something a typical person could reasonably expect.

    Traditionally, marriage was based on economic necessity and rigid social customs and legal constraints; even if many marriages started full of romantic love and sexual attraction, this is not what kept them stable in the long run. Furthermore, people had realistic ideas of what to expect, and in the harsh, poverty-stricken world of yesterday, good family background and personal qualities such as robust health, work ethic, practical household skills, etc. mattered much more than beauty and charm for both sexes. People had their natural urges, of course, but they were controlled by powerful social and legal mechanisms, such as shaming of whores and sluts, discrimination against illegitimate children, and condoning of physical violence against womanizers on part of fathers, brothers, and husbands. (Nowadays, it sounds odd that only a few decades ago, “wrongful seduction” was still a tort under common law!)

    Nowadays, however, we live spoiled lives of plenty and luxury, in conditions of sexual laissez-faire constrained only by weak relics of old customs and social norms. People thus expect that their relationships with the opposite sex should provide, first of all, fun and enjoyment on top of other pleasures in their luxurious lives. However, the ugly truth is that many women, and even more men, just aren’t attractive enough to provide a fun and enjoyable romantic and sexual experience. Most men are what’s usually described on this blog as “loser betas”, and most women are plain or downright ugly — and no amount of fantasies about “inner beauty” and “special ones” will change that. It’s easy to see how this leads to endless unrealistic expectations on part of both men and women. Permanent monogamous relationships and stable families don’t result from human natural instincts and passions — on the contrary, from most people they require the effort to subdue their natural passions and be guided by reason and custom instead.

    Of course, most people still want to eventually form and sustain traditional families, and many of them still succeed despite belonging to the unattractive categories, but only because they manage to reject or somehow rationalize away the popular lies and unrealistic expectations. As for the others, I can hardly blame them when the popular wisdom of the day is that you’re supposed to marry a special someone that you’re head over heels in love with and whose attractiveness eclipses everyone else in the world, not someone who is merely the best available rational choice for a prospectively good parent and spouse in practical matters.

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  155. My Immortal Beloved:

    A woman who chooses a beta is likely to know that her husband/partner isn’t the chest-thumping type. As long as he isn’t an actual pushover, she will probably retain her respect for him. If a true alpha came along and tried to steal her away, it’s possible she might be interested – but it’s not inevitable. Many attractive women have learned to prefer men who don’t put them through an emotional wringer the way alphas often do

    Higher order thought control wages an epic but ultimately losing battle against the Id monster. While a woman might restrain her actions in public, the cooze moistening effects she experiences around an alpha tend to infiltrate the daydreams which exist in the shadows of her mind.

    But a woman who chooses what she thinks is an alpha strong man, and then finds that he’s slipping, or that he isn’t as strong as he looked on the surface, or that he’s not very intelligent (I’ve seen this one happen often; men who have Game are wily but not necessarily brainy) – she’s the one who’ll become discontented and start to belittle her mate, and try to justify leaving him.

    Correction: she will belittle her alpha in a naive attempt to betaize him. But she does want him — badly. This is different from the Lilliputian pinpricks of spite a woman directs towards her beta chump provider.

    Like


  156. dirty li’l slut:

    holy shit, women are fucked up. myself included.

    all the requests for women to do a female ‘roissy’ blog are in vain – we can see our faulty reasoning for what it is, but we can’t justify it with reason, can’t back it with logic, and sure as hell can’t analogize it to any published theories.

    Dear, I fear we’re facing a problem
    you love me no longer, I know
    and maybe there is nothing
    that I can do to make you do
    Mama tells me I shouldn’t bother
    that I ought to stick to another man
    a man that surely deserves me
    but I think you do!

    So I cry, and I pray and I beg

    Love me love me
    say that you love me
    fool me fool me
    go on and fool me
    love me love me
    pretend that you love me
    leave me leave me
    just say that you need me

    So I cried, and I begged for you to
    Love me love me
    say that you love me
    leave me leave me
    just say that you need me
    I can’t care about anything but you

    Lately I have desperately pondered,
    spent my nights awake and I wonder
    what I could do have done in another way
    to make you stay
    Reason will not lead to solution
    I will end up lost in confusion
    I don’t care if you really care
    as long as you don’t go

    So I cry, I pray and I beg

    Love me love me
    say that you love me
    fool me fool me
    go on and fool me
    love me love me
    pretend that you love me
    leave me leave me
    just say that you need me

    So I cried, and I begged for you to
    Love me love me
    say that you love me
    leave me leave me
    just say that you need me
    I can’t care about anything but you

    Love me love me
    say that you love me
    fool me fool me
    go on and fool me
    Love me love me
    I know that you need me
    I can’t care about anything but you

    — The Cardigans

    Like


  157. Mamacita:

    Sure, sometimes I feel like an idiot when I realize I am being led around by the nose

    Don’t. Think of it as the suspension of disbelief required to enjoy a great movie.

    Like


  158. Nicole:

    Joel, I have a strong belief that like goes to like. It doesn’t really matter whether or not you help her in some way that you feel is helpful. She either appreciates love and loves her husband, or she doesn’t.

    If she doesn’t then she is a perfect match for a guy who would be pursuing her while she’s in a marriage with a (presumably) monogamous guy who isn’t mistreating her. They belong together. The guy with a heart needs to be set free to find a woman with a heart.

    Why do I get the feeling the “woman with a heart” is not hot?

    …but then again, perhaps the reason her husband got into that situation is because he was selecting for looks and not character.

    A woman with the most unassailable character can still have expectations.

    If in that case he gets his heart broken, it is only because he was fool enough to give it to someone who doesn’t really care about him.

    The only unconditional love in this world is from one’s mother.

    Someone who will happily bang someone who doesn’t give a flying fart about them can’t very well complain when she proves it some other way. Apparently there was something in it for him that no matter what he says, was the reason he could tolerate such a cold fish.

    Even the most warm hearted woman has standards and will have the self-esteem to walk when they are not met. Why do you think Clio is still single?

    Like


  159. wackjob loser:
    Oooo….

    you’re starting to sweat.

    OOooOOooo….

    got nervous?

    Not in those exact words…

    spoken like an evasive lying shit.

    …to you.

    i see you’ve chosen the former. you wish me to continue administering the pain. so i shall. with glee.
    first order of business: universal human sexual preferences are the rule, not the exception. anyone who thinks otherwise is telling themselves lies or is impossibly ignorant.

    “i will say this. fat shits can’t contribute as effectively to humanity as they could if they were in shape.”

    :: just shaking my head ::

    keep shaking and maybe some seeds will pop out of that melon and grows sprouts of stupid in the soil.
    obesity linked to reduced productivity at work:

    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/93402.php

    Well, karma’s been very good to me, and I have no regrets.

    that’s because you can’t ask for much, what with your unfortunate condition and all.

    As I’ve said before, with the self pitying, it’s never enough that people you consider inferior accept the reality of your opinion. They have to kiss your ass, or you’re not satisfied.

    “the reality of your opinion”
    true weasel words of the loser who can’t live with the soulkilling truth.

    If the comments here are all about kissing your ass then I might have made a mistake in returning.

    last thing i want is your piglike lips kissing anything on me. but i do enjoy watching you squeal with pain. feel free to stick around for more of the ol’ ultraasshole fun!

    ps: chic, don’t think my diverted attention means you’re off the hook.

    Like


  160. Correction: she will belittle her alpha in a naive attempt to betaize him. But she does want him — badly. This is different from the Lilliputian pinpricks of spite a woman directs towards her beta chump provider.

    Absolutely NOT, Tupac. This is one of the few times when I’ve sensed, in disagreeing with you, that we not only disagree but that you don’t really know what I’m talking about – or what you’re talking about either.

    I recall an acquaintance of mine who was about as sexually successful as a man could be – a bartender who made lots of money and was extremely handsome and athletic. He oozed Game, too. But he was stupid. Really stupid, in ways that embarrassed his girlfriends, even if they were none too bright themselves. He was, in fact, a true “himbo”. As a result, his relationships all died after a few months, or with his least brainy girls in a year or two.

    Many alphas are also unstable. I’ve said this before here, and you suggested a reason why it might happen – that they may be the sons of player alphas who impregnate women and then disappear, leaving their sons to flounder around for role models.

    Alpha males who keep losing jobs because they can’t accept another man’s authority are common. Such men tend to lose their sex appeal fast, not just because of that female tendency to place practicality above sex appeal, but because it’s hard to admire a man in that sexy alpha way when he collapses into drunken despair after losing another job, or when a friend turns on him, or all the other things that can get to this type of man.

    Another scenario – archetypal and not based on anyone I know, but well-known to connaisseurs of popular culture. The cheerleader marries her captain of the football team. Only instead of going on to great success, he becomes an insurance salesman and stays in middle management. His cheerleader is disappointed to find that she’s not living the life she expected. If a higher-ranking alpha comes along and shows an interest in her, she may well dump her husband for him.

    In short: a woman who lands an alpha who eventually shows that he is not also a strong and competent and successful man may very well lose interest in him, beyond a point where he can ever win her back. In fact, as I already suggested, he’s the kind of man who most needs to watch out for his wife, since she may be the kind of woman who needs a successful man to validate her.

    Like


  161. Roissy, you think way too highly of yourself if you expect to bring any pain to someone who’s been on the internet since the days when you had to telnet to chat on a BBS.

    Tupac, of course a hot woman can have a heart. Please don’t confuse Roissy’s windmill with me.

    What I’m saying is that looks are just looks…like the beauty of a rose or the cuteness of a cat. It doesn’t mean anything except at the most physical suitability. A serious relationship requires more than this, so character is more important.

    It may happen that someone gets lucky enough to find someone who meets all of their requirements, and if one wants to improve their chances, they won’t waste time with someone who doesn’t. A guy looking for a wife should probably hold out for someone who would be a good one instead of pouncing on a chick who pays him any attention, just because she’s hot.

    Like


  162. MQ:

    Hey MQ, when a girl starts mentioning her friends’ boyfriends to you, talks about getting a boobjob, pushes your kisses away on account of her lipstick, and criticizes your blunders, is it insecurity and resentment on your part to be suspicious of her?

    Where did this come from? Weird. Do you have big problems with this kind of behavior from your women?

    Not for a long, long while. But when it did happen to me it was during the time I had bought into the Stuart Smalley pablum of folks like you who made me question my instincts by insisting that

    — any raised eyebrows about a GF’s sudden self-improvement plan were an indication of insecurity on my part
    — any attempts to confront the issue were a paranoid manifestation of Islamic-style overcontrolling of my woman’s freedom
    — any questioning of a GF’s social and flirtatious nature was evidence of resentment on my part

    Tell me: when you eventually walk in on your GF slobbing some other guy’s schlong, do you shrug and tell yourself that it was probably something you did and that it was your insecurity that must have driven her into the arms of another man?

    I did have a girlfriend cheat on me once. We had to break up. She tried to get back together with me like six months later, but I didn’t have any of it.

    [MQ]

    Why not? What were you so afraid of? Insecure? Do you need to control everything your woman feels? Can’t you accept a woman’s sexuality and realize that you are not the only man in the world? If you really loved her you would have accepted her humanity and took her back. What, are you so egotistical that you need to be her God or something? It’s obvious your “love” for her was nothing other than your ego and if you weren’t so insecure and paranoid you could have taken her back and lived happily ever after.

    [/MQ]

    Like


  163. Clio, EXCELLENT point, sis. This is why I stress to my Brothers the utmost and urgent importance of having a strong Work Ethic and Team Work. Nothing of consequence in this World has been built without these things. A Man who can’t be depended on steady, ain’t worth the trouble of having around. As so many Sistas say, “I can do bad by myself”.

    Thanks.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  164. hello pussy:

    The fact that he threw himself into working so tirelessly for her suggests to me that he knew she didn’t really love him.

    Or maybe he was busting his ass to provide for his family.

    Like


  165. Clio – In short: a woman who lands an alpha who eventually shows that he is not also a strong and competent and successful man may very well lose interest in him

    So you’re saying if a woman find out her “alpha” wasn’t really the kind of man that deserves respect, but a dumb, weak and incompetent bartender who doesn’t provide a common future she’ll leave him?

    In fact, as I already suggested, he’s the kind of man who most needs to watch out for his wife, since she may be the kind of woman who needs a successful man to validate her.

    And you believe that women fuck alphas for a while and then marry the type of guy who is better able to pay for her brats? Quite a bit of insight you draw from your little anecdote there.

    Was he a good lay at least?

    Like


  166. Tupac, thing is, he shouldn’t be the only one busting their ass. A grown person with bills to pay doesn’t just live off someone else’s sweat.

    Though I do realize that may be a cultural difference thing, I just couldn’t see letting my husband bear that burden by himself if I’m capable of working. If one is a stay at home parent who doesn’t bring in an income though, part of helping out is being resourceful and helping stay within your means.

    Like


  167. PA:

    High quantities of pr0n are probably a factor but I question the promise that young guys are feel all that entitled. What we’re seeing in young guys is not so much entitlement as frustration.

    This frustration comes from the fact tons of young guys are elbowed out of the market. That’s always been the case to some extent, since there is always a bit of soft polygamy going on, and because guys in ther 20s-40s chase women in their 20s.

    I think you’re falling for the same fallacy as Whiskey. It’s true that many guys would be elbowed out of the market because of women’s hypergamous behavior and shorter windows of fertility and attractiveness if all guys were willing to take full advantage of what they can get. However, in reality, girls from the lower part of the distribution are invisible or repulsive for nearly every man, even for many extremely unattractive guys. Thus, many of these frustrated guys do feel unrealistic entitlement, since there are women who would want them if they lowered their standards.

    Admittedly, many girls nowadays ruin themselves to the point where they are wholly unsuitable for any serious relationship. But any guy who lowers his standards of beauty below a certain limit will be able to find a girl even if he maintains very high standards of decency. Finding a 7+ with a decent personality, of course, is much harder (though far from impossible either).

    But today, the obesity epidemic has compounded the problem by removing even more women out of the pool of eligible girlfriends. And this is how a critical mass of young guys got shafted.

    Guys don’t have unrealistic expectations. It’s just that reasonable-looking women are in a short supply than normal, due to the obesity epidemic.

    I’ve lived in places where obesity is almost nonexistent, and I can report first-hand that the above-described dynamic still holds there. What is a “reasonable-looking” woman, after all? Even if all women took the best possible care of their looks, and if every woman somehow got magically paired with her exact equivalent on the looks scale, how many guys would get a “reasonable-looking” woman by your criteria?

    The problem is not so much in unnaturally high standards induced by the media, porn, etc., as in the very fact that many people of both sexes consider physical attractiveness as a condition sine qua non for entering a serious relationship with anyone. (As opposed to economic, character, personal and family background, and other factors that will matter practically in difficult conditions in the long run.) Of course, many people will claim that remaining alone is better than being with an unattractive partner (yes, David, we’ve already heard the entire rant), but in any case, it’s incorrect to complain that it’s only the other side having unrealistic standards.

    hello:

    What about European countries where people are far less obese? Men who periodically post here from those countries do not rhapsodize about how happy they are with slender yet otherwise unremarkable women.

    You’re right on spot with this observation.

    Like


  168. Mu – A Man who can’t be depended on steady, ain’t worth the trouble of having around.

    What’s better – working your ass of to “keep” a single pussy in your life?

    Or being the kind of guy she won’t see husband potential in, but will happily suck of in the men’s room minutes after hello?

    Women (and betas who depend on it) want long term relationships.

    For men with options an exclusive long term relationship means giving up one of the biggest and purest joys in life – women.

    Given all that – why would a man work on making a relationship work? I’d leave that up to the women. It’s their ultimate goal and they are pretty good at it.

    Like


  169. anony:
    I absolutely agree with your suspicion that porn (available in unlimited quantities now) generates an unrealistic entitlement attitude in younger men. They feel entitled to their fantasies.

    This is only half-correct. It is a fantasy for some men, a reality for others. I am quite close to some men whose lives mirror what you see in pornos day in and day out. So the entitlement is not a case of men wanting something that does not exist, but rather something that does not exist for them. It is a human quality to think “If them why not me?”

    Like


  170. hello pussy:

    What about European countries where people are far less obese? Men who periodically post here from those countries do not rhapsodize about how happy they are with slender yet otherwise unremarkable women.

    Probably because they don’t feel the need, what with merrily fucking them and what not.

    P.S. one of these days I’m going to catch that kitty of yours and give her Shakira ass the right good buggering it deserves.

    Like


  171. Nicole:

    I forget the name of the movie, but there’s a film about two thugs in the UK in which the mafia guy they have to kidnap, tells them what it’s like to shag a gangster’s wife.

    Redirect to PA.

    Like


  172. unrealistic entitlement attitude in younger men

    Tupac is on the money here. And since women do not limit themselves to the “hot” guys, but decide by social status alone, most of these ugly guys feel that they could get what they want if they had game. Rightly so.

    Not so for women.

    Given how hard guys try to make become worthy providers or learn game, it is amazing how little the majority of women in the US cares about their ONLY capital on the mating market: their hotness.

    The average female body size in this country is moved so far towards obesity compared to other parts of the world that it lowers the social pressure enough for them not to feel ashamed about themselves showing up in belly-free tank tops (!) at the bars. Disgusting.

    Like


  173. “One of the Big Lies of our age is that everyone should expect to find a soulmate with whom it’s possible to form a permanent monogamous commitment based purely on honest love and attraction, which both partners will consider as more enjoyable than any imaginable alternative.”

    It is indeed largely a myth, but much of people’s superficiality is based on things like money and status. There’s a certain type of trophy beauty that some men pursue even if they don’t personally prefer it to show that they’re wealthy/high status. The soulmate ideal, to my mind, has a lot to do with the quality of emotional connection even though beauty and wealth are also nice.

    “Traditionally, marriage was based on economic necessity and rigid social customs and legal constraints; even if many marriages started full of romantic love and sexual attraction, this is not what kept them stable in the long run.”

    Cosign

    “Furthermore, people had realistic ideas of what to expect, and in the harsh, poverty-stricken world of yesterday.”

    I sincerely believe that physical comfort is what makes some peop

    “People had their natural urges, of course, but they were controlled by powerful social and legal mechanisms, such as shaming of whores and sluts, discrimination against illegitimate children, and condoning of physical violence against womanizers on part of fathers, brothers, and husbands.”

    “(Nowadays, it sounds odd that only a few decades ago, “wrongful seduction” was still a tort under common law!)”

    That’s definitely one feminist reform that no one on this blog will denounce!

    “However, the ugly truth is that many women, and even more men, just aren’t attractive enough to provide a fun and enjoyable romantic and sexual experience. Most men are what’s usually described on this blog as “loser betas”, and most women are plain or downright ugly — and no amount of fantasies about “inner beauty” and “special ones” will change that.”

    Brutal but true. I suspect that marriage rates will go way down in my generation because lots of average and even more below average people will refuse to settle for the mates they can realistically get.

    “…many of them still succeed [in forming families] despite belonging to the unattractive categories, but only because they manage to reject or somehow rationalize away the popular lies and unrealistic expectations.”

    I know unattractive people who seem happy with their similarly unattractive partners.

    I would add one other obstacle: that of self-acceptance. A great deal of perfectionism in dating involves mate selection’s reflect on our own desirability. For a woman pairing up with a skinny nerd shows that she isn’t beautiful enough to get a rich hunk. For a man being seen with a plain or fat woman is announcing to the world that he isn’t rich or studly enough to get a hot chick. I think that if average and below average people simply accept themselves for their strengths and weaknesses, and realize that sexual attractiveness isn’t the sole measure of humanity they will warm up to the partners they can realistically attract.

    The all pervading status obsession makes people feel as though average people, even themselves, are losers to be scorned and only the particularly beautiful and successful are worthwhile. The self-esteem movement taught for years that telling people they were only average would scar their psyches. But people manage quite nicely with their limitations once they accept them and stop beating themselves up over them. The hatred and contempt pouring off of this site (and to be fair in real life) against loser betas and plain or ugly women is really just fighting against human failings that our grandparents would have shrugged off.

    Like


  174. What about European countries where people are far less obese? Men who periodically post here from those countries do not rhapsodize about how happy they are with slender yet otherwise unremarkable women.

    Just because they don’t rhapsodize about it doesn’t mean it’s meaningless to them. You need to be able to conceptualize the lack of something to really appreciate its presence. Basically, take my parents who came from the third world. They often say “thanks” to God for the food on the table and the roof over their heads. I join in at times, but I don’t really empathize because unlike them I can’t conceptualize a life without available food or shelter, I’ve been spoiled by comparison. I would never on my own say “Thank goodness for the food and housing” because I take their presence for granted. But try to take away my food and housing and I’ll fight you tooth and nail.

    Same with those foreign men. They may not rhapsodize about skinny women, but that’s because they just take it for granted that that’s how women should be. The opposite isn’t even an option, just an anomaly at best, so they don’t even think of being consciously grateful for it. It would be like praising the women in your country for having all 10 fingers and 10 toes.

    American men have so much exposure to the reality of overweight women that we tend to appreciate skinny women more when we do come across them.

    Like


  175. T, true. Unless you’re into Eastern European girls (as so often praised on here). Not the ones who come here fetching a provider. The fat ones at home:

    (Amazing how women outdo men in this graph)

    Like


  176. Clio:

    Absolutely NOT, Tupac. This is one of the few times when I’ve sensed, in disagreeing with you, that we not only disagree but that you don’t really know what I’m talking about – or what you’re talking about either.

    We’re talking past each other. You have in mind women who get into relationships with macho meatheads who then feel the social pressure to upgrade to someone more sophisticated. I’m talking about women who are with sophisticated men but who yearn for more socially dominant men.

    I recall an acquaintance of mine who was about as sexually successful as a man could be – a bartender who made lots of money and was extremely handsome and athletic. He oozed Game, too. But he was stupid. Really stupid, in ways that embarrassed his girlfriends, even if they were none too bright themselves. He was, in fact, a true “himbo”. As a result, his relationships all died after a few months, or with his least brainy girls in a year or two.

    I am very close to several men like this. I know EXACTLY what you’re talking about. Funning thing though — as soon as one girl leaves, there are 10 others waiting in line.

    I also know some civilized, sophisticated men. When *their* girls leave, all that can be heard is the sound of the wind and the tumbleweeds.

    What do you conclude from this.

    Alpha males who keep losing jobs because they can’t accept another man’s authority are common. Such men tend to lose their sex appeal fast, not just because of that female tendency to place practicality above sex appeal

    lol

    but because it’s hard to admire a man in that sexy alpha way when he collapses into drunken despair after losing another job, or when a friend turns on him, or all the other things that can get to this type of man.

    I roll with my Super Alpha friends and while I would not deign to place myself in their league, I have had the opportunity to be the figurative (and sometimes literal) fly on the wall to their exploits. What I’ve observed would make most of the men’s hair here turn WHITE.

    It is NOT true that women place practicality above sex appeal.

    Well, not until they hit 30, anyway. Heh.

    Another scenario – archetypal and not based on anyone I know, but well-known to connaisseurs of popular culture. The cheerleader marries her captain of the football team. Only instead of going on to great success, he becomes an insurance salesman and stays in middle management. His cheerleader is disappointed to find that she’s not living the life she expected. If a higher-ranking alpha comes along and shows an interest in her, she may well dump her husband for him.

    This doesn’t support your point. There is nothing inherenly negative about being a masculine middle manager. If a woman leaves him because he’s not the CEO that only underscores the fact that women value dominance over other men more than anything else.

    In short: a woman who lands an alpha who eventually shows that he is not also a strong and competent and successful man may very well lose interest in him, beyond a point where he can ever win her back. In fact, as I already suggested, he’s the kind of man who most needs to watch out for his wife, since she may be the kind of woman who needs a successful man to validate her.

    Romantic Love, R.I.P.

    P.S. In closing, I would like to add that your crisply written prose always makes me want to touch myself. Could you submit a 1000 word essay on why this might be?

    Like


  177. Nicole:

    Tupac, thing is, he shouldn’t be the only one busting their ass. A grown person with bills to pay doesn’t just live off someone else’s sweat.

    A mother should be there for her kids.

    Though I do realize that may be a cultural difference thing

    It’s a biology thing.

    Like


  178. hello pussy:

    I would add one other obstacle: that of self-acceptance. A great deal of perfectionism in dating involves mate selection’s reflect on our own desirability. For a woman pairing up with a skinny nerd shows that she isn’t beautiful enough to get a rich hunk. For a man being seen with a plain or fat woman is announcing to the world that he isn’t rich or studly enough to get a hot chick. I think that if average and below average people simply accept themselves for their strengths and weaknesses, and realize that sexual attractiveness isn’t the sole measure of humanity they will warm up to the partners they can realistically attract.

    As an old friend of mine puts it:

    “There is a method available to low SMV people which can improve their chances of finding a partner. All they have to do is lower their standards so as to tap into the pool of equally undesirable people.

    This is known as settling.

    By so doing the odds of any one of these people finding them acceptable increase since they are under the same pressure to lower thier standards as their unfortunate pursuer. By settling a low SMV person also lowers the
    odds of their potential partner being in an existing relationship.
    But that point may seem to contradict the logic of settling – why, if this method is available, are the chances of finding a single person among the undesirables better than in the conventionally mediocre population? Assuming that low SMV is equally distributed between men and women shouldn’t there be partners available for anyone who wants one and thus no greater cause to remain single than in any other cohort?
    Well yes – but only if all low SMV people were willing to settle for each other.

    But…

    most unattractive people find their fellow ugly people just as repulsive as the rest of us do.

    It’s like a modified game of musical chairs where there are enough chairs for everyone but the seats are covered with various quantities of hot steamy shit.
    The result being that at any given time for a certain number of low SMV people their ugliness means total lockout.

    Unless they settle in the shit.”

    Like


  179. Vladimir:

    I think you’re falling for the same fallacy as Whiskey.

    I don’t share Whiskey’s apocalyptic visions that the skewed sex market will supposedly beget. He seems to fall for the “single-trend” fallacy, an assumption that a trend will never change or be reversed by counter-trends.

    I do think that the obesity epidemic makes a difference in degree between North America and other parts of the West in terms of Beta male frustration.

    Like


  180. Tupac, what about working precludes someone being there for their kids?

    I work at home.

    Like


  181. T:
    My Europe comment was based on this assertion by PA:

    “This frustration comes from the fact tons of young guys are elbowed out of the market. That’s always been the case to some extent, since there is always a bit of soft polygamy going on, and because guys in ther 20s-40s chase women in their 20s.

    But today, the obesity epidemic has compounded the problem by removing even more women out of the pool of eligible girlfriends. And this is how a critical mass of young guys got shafted.”

    If the only thing that keeps men from accepting run of the mill women were obesity most people in European countries where women are slimmer would be happily paired up. But that’s not the case. There’s a Finnish commentator here who complains that Finnish women are all fat, but the obesity rate in Finland is 19% compared to America’s 32%. The perfectionism is worldwide and applies to both sexes equally.

    Like


  182. Tupac says, “most unattractive people find their fellow ugly people just as repulsive as the rest of us do.”

    I agree, but when one is competing with Hollywood and porn, I think the deck is stacked against even attractive people who simply don’t conform to the standard…not that this is an excuse, but this is how people seem to operate.

    I mean…we spent a few posts on how something a simple as a particular hairstyle can turn guys off, if they’re socialized to find it unattractive. If folks are so picky that it prevents them from dating and ultimately breeding, perhaps they don’t deserve to.

    I kind of get tired of “the media made me do it” too. Even though I recognize the power of trends, there’s a point when a person has to deprogram or fail.

    Like


  183. vlad:
    However, in reality, girls from the lower part of the distribution are invisible or repulsive for nearly every man, even for many extremely unattractive guys. Thus, many of these frustrated guys do feel unrealistic entitlement, since there are women who would want them if they lowered their standards.

    actually, the reality is that women date up across the spectrum. eggs = expensive, sperm = cheap. a woman who is a 2 will have better odds of finding someone than a man who is a 2. because of this dating up phenomenon, it logically follows that women feel greater entitledness than do men. and men’s experience from the field verifies this. it’s not for nothing women possess a longer bullet point checklist for judging men than men have for judging women.

    this is not to say men don’t feel unrealistic entitlement, just that men feel it less often and less intensely than women, because men, in accordance with the parameters of the mating market, settle more than women.

    also note that the modern obesity plague is creating a larger class of low quality girls, and this will have an effect on how the sexes pair off. it won’t mean women will stop dating up (their nature is immutable in this respect); instead it will mean more men will settle for dumping fucks in fat cows without offering commitment or going home alone to stroke one off. men will continue to strive for landing slender girls, as that is hardwired in their nature. some will call this “entitlement”, but it’s not. it’s just a desire for the types of regular girls men want in a normally functioning sexual market that isn’t skewed by massive numbers of fat chicks.

    Like


  184. T. AKA Ricky Raw:

    What about European countries where people are far less obese? Men who periodically post here from those countries do not rhapsodize about how happy they are with slender yet otherwise unremarkable women.

    Just because they don’t rhapsodize about it doesn’t mean it’s meaningless to them. You need to be able to conceptualize the lack of something to really appreciate its presence.

    True, but that was not the relevant point. The problem is that while the obesity epidemic undoubtedly shifts the average female beauty downwards, thus making the competition for the remaining attractive girls even more extreme, the situation wouldn’t be that much better even without it. In other words, even in societies where most women are slender, a large percentage of girls still fall into the plain and ugly categories. Therefore, even in Europe, a huge percentage of men will have to settle for unattractive girls or remain alone. The U.S. obesity epidemic increases the percentage of such men only moderately.

    11minutes:

    T, true. Unless you’re into Eastern European girls (as so often praised on here). Not the ones who come here fetching a provider. The fat ones at home:
    http://www.admc.hct.ac.ae/hd1/english/graphs/obesity_bar.gif

    I’d bet that the criteria used to define “obesity” in these countries are very different. There’s no way 25% of Czech women are obese by U.S. standards, unless something has drastically changed in a few years since last time I was there.

    Also, these charts don’t tell you anything about the age distribution of obesity. The figure in the chart might be high even if young women are overwhelmingly slender if many old women tend to get fat.

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  185. Roissy,
    Some fat women do marry. As far as a “normal fucking market”, are you referring to a state of nature? In that case everyone would be getting pregnant and they’d stop screwing around.

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  186. Tupac says, “most unattractive people find their fellow ugly people just as repulsive as the rest of us do.”

    Sometimes emotional connection can make you find people irresistible even if they aren’t objectively that hot.

    But I suppose you’ll have to take my word for it.

    Like


  187. hello mello:
    If the only thing that keeps men from accepting run of the mill women were obesity most people in European countries where women are slimmer would be happily paired up.

    as i wrote above, obesity rates are rising in europe. the UK is right up there with the US. greeks are getting fatter now that they eat western food. this would account for some of the recent bitching about the availability of quality euro women.

    and as i also wrote, female obesity is not the only factor contributing to male disenchantment with the available pussy (although it is a BIG FAT one). in europe, as in the US, female financial independence, misandrist divorce laws, and de facto polygamy create a growing class of betas frustrated with the direction the mating market has taken. don’t for a minute think the modern twist of Game rose out of a vacuum.

    But that’s not the case. There’s a Finnish commentator here who complains that Finnish women are all fat, but the obesity rate in Finland is 19% compared to America’s 32%.

    19% fat chicks is nothing to sneeze at. such a rate would negatively impact the sexual market. and if that finn were to move to the US where there are more fat women than in finland, he would simply become twice as frustrated with our women.

    The perfectionism is worldwide and applies to both sexes equally.

    desiring a waist-hip proportionate slender woman is not a sign of perfectionism; it’s a sign of level-headed normalcy.
    only in a world where the standard for normal weight was expanded (heh) to spare the feelings of the growing (double heh) class of fat chicks would natural male desire for thin girls be considered a psychologically imbalanced quest for perfection.
    hth.

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  188. hello:

    Sometimes emotional connection can make you find people irresistible even if they aren’t objectively that hot.

    Clio, is any of this getting through to you?

    – call me –

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  189. “desiring a waist-hip proportionate slender woman is not a sign of perfectionism; it’s a sign of level-headed normalcy.”

    Roissy, I don’t deny any of the evo-bio arguments you make, I simply state that a person who can’t or won’t compromise in the face of reality has some growing up to do.

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  190. A man desiring a woman who isn’t fat is like a woman desiring a man who is not a jobless alcoholic.

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  191. Roissy, I don’t deny any of the evo-bio arguments you make, I simply state that a person who can’t or won’t compromise in the face of reality has some growing up to do.

    American men DO compromise in the face of reality. That’s a big reason why the weight gain keeps getting worse here. That’s the whole problem. That Finnish weight-nazi you mention? A big reason why the obesity is so low down there is precisely because of the fact the men ARE such weight nazis. Telling guys to lower their physical standards even more will just lead to even more widespread weight gain, which will then lead to more disgust from guys, which will then lead to people telling them to “grow up” and lower their standards even more, which will then lead to the women getting even fatter again…it’s a vicious cycle, a reinforcing loop.

    Telling guys to lower their standards wouldn’t be so bad if they could lower their standards while the female average weight would remain unchanged, but in reality it wouldn’t work that way.

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  192. A man desiring a woman who isn’t fat is like a woman desiring a man who is not a jobless alcoholic.

    Exactly. If one kept telling attractive woman to be more tolerant of jobless alcoholic men, it’s safe to say the rate of jobless alcoholic men would skyrocket.

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  193. Oops. Fixed:

    A man desiring a woman who isn’t fat is like a woman desiring a man who is not a jobless alcoholic.

    Exactly. If one kept telling attractive woman to be more tolerant of jobless alcoholic men, it’s safe to say the rate of jobless alcoholic men would skyrocket.

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  194. T:
    If a guy wants to appeal to better looking women by all means he should learn Game and improve himself, but if after his best efforts he doesn’t like the women he attracts his options are mainly to mimic David Alexander or get a mail order bride and hope she doesn’t fleece him.

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  195. “Nerd = fat chick” is far more accurate. Fat women can do most things thin women do except be sexy (to most men) and tolerate extreme physical exertion. Not to say there aren’t disadvantages in heart disease, diabetes, and decreased fertility but by virtue of being overweight fat women don’t beat their spouses and kids.

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  196. Healthy but non-athletic people can do most things except tolerate extreme physical exertion. Fat women are walking and talking medical expense sinkholes. You can’t even take a walk in the park with a fattie, unless you shuffle your feet like a 90-year-old man.

    Fat women have diabetes, bad knees and ankles, bad skin, bad smell, and extremely difficult pregnancies, which usually come to term only thenks to modern medical care.

    Fatness is mostly a self-inflicted affliction, which is why I don’t feel bad about mocking it.

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  197. hello bellowed:
    Roissy, I don’t deny any of the evo-bio arguments you make, I simply state that a person who can’t or won’t compromise in the face of reality has some growing up to do.

    hello, you’ve got it completely backwards. the fault lies not with men who are only following their innate deeply wired sexual preferences, but with those women who have made the choice to bloat up like sea cows. the admonition to grow up is reserved for those who make voluntary choices not to face reality, and fat chicks fall in that category. when these fatasses can’t get any male attention, they will either grow up and push away from the table, or they will refuse to compromise their desire to shovel food down their gullets with their desire for love. you can’t have it both ways.

    naturally, there will be those weak entitled women who argue in the ways of the egalitarian priesthood that we should embrace the new definition of sexy to include all those freshly minted fat fucks, and thus put the onus on men to conform their preferences to the updated standards of beauty, but that faces the critical problem of how to get around the untidy little fact that men do not choose what types of women they find attractive; it’s instinctual, like the urge to take a dump.

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  198. “when these fatasses can’t get any male attention, they will either grow up and push away from the table, or they will refuse to compromise their desire to shovel food down their gullets with their desire for love. you can’t have it both ways.”

    Oh, absolutely. Fat women who want better men should lose weight. But if they lose weight and still can’t attract the dream men they want they should similarly think long and hard about what’s important to them. You think that ugly looks or weak game cancel out anything else a person has to offer. Although I as well prefer the charming and beautiful I disagree. And I have a feeling if you look through your family albums you’ll see aunts and uncles who were clearly not Brad and Angelina but who still built happy lives together. Tell me, Roissy, was the grandmother you mentioned a few threads ago a raving beauty in her youth?

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  199. There is a saying in Polish about fatties that should also have an equivalent in English:

    “Łatwiej przeskoczyc nad niż przejść wokół”

    “She’s easier to jump over than walk around.”

    OK, enough fattie-hating.

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  200. Oh, one more:

    Jest tak tłusta, że mniejsze tłuste baby wokół niej krążą

    “She’s so fat, minature fat women orbit around her.”

    OK, I made that one up.

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  201. “Fat women have diabetes, bad knees and ankles, bad skin, bad smell, and extremely difficult pregnancies, which usually come to term only thenks to modern medical care.”

    You mean morbid obesity, which is a serious health problem. Such people are often food addicts, so I’d say don’t marry them until they straighten themselves out as well as lose weight. But my point isn’t to defend fat women but to note that a man who categorically rejects the women who like him, for whatever reason, is has very little recourse.

    Also for some men a size 12 is too fat. I once read an online forum where a guy said that Britney, in 2003, was too chubby for him. Now I’m not knocking anyone’s taste but a guy who only wants the thinnest of the thin and is repulsed by women who like him even though their weights are in the healthy range is shooting himself in the cock.

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  202. Hello says, “Fat women who want better men should lose weight.”

    If only it were that simple.

    Yet the guys who want to cheat with me all have skinny wives. All but one of them is blonde. The one who isn’t is a former bargirl from Thailand. I don’t think they’re getting the better men.

    I think having trendier looks just increases one’s pool of candidates. One still has to choose a good man to get one.

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  203. That Finnish weight-nazi

    Hey, people are talking about me! I love it when people are talking about me.

    I do have to protest something, though. I’ve never meant to single out Finnish women. Finnish men are just as disgustingly fat.

    And of course to me it all looks even worse, since 15 minutes away there’s Estonia with just about the lowest overweight rate in any country that isn’t a neighbour of Ethiopia.

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  204. You mean morbid obesity, which is a serious health problem.

    Hello, yes, I do mean morbid obesity. It used to be rare, normally associated with people who had endocrne problems. Today, it’s everywhere. Eye-pollution of the worst kind.

    My friend’s wife, who is grossly obese, just delivered a healthy baby (thank God) but what they went through during that pregnancy, all due to her fatness, isn’t something humans are meant to go through.

    Men’s prefernces vary, from waifish to zaftig, but what we’re talking about — which is epidemic today — goes beyond any semblance of decency. I’m not sure what Size 12 is but it sounds too large, for my tastes anyway.

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  205. Nic,
    Oh I agree I was speaking in terms of meat market lust i.e. the terms Roissy understands. Madame Mao was quite thin, so being thin is no guarantee of a good man.

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  206. Oh, YOU’RE the weight nazi jaakkeli? Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

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  207. T, you see many other guys around here complaining that Finns are fat???

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  208. Fat women can do most things thin women do except be sexy (to most men) and tolerate extreme physical exertion.

    And is everyone on the same page as far as what “fat” even means? I mean, there are people — possibly commenters here — who think a size 12 is disgusting and repulsive, but that’s not morbidly obese, or even necessarily medically overweight. So while a woman that size may not appeal to a guy physically, it’s bullshit to act as though she’s a wheezing, self-indulgent dugong with myriad health issues.

    Men are entitled to like what they like, of course; what’s dismaying is the extreme contempt and hostility exhibited here for those who fall outside The Attractiveness Range.

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  209. To set the obesity question aside for a minute …

    Look, something has changed in the last decade or two, and it isn’t abortion, birth control, or women making money. All three of those were around in plenty in the ’70s and ’80s, my own single-and-dating days. Yet people paired off and had a good time.

    The world y’all describe is light-years different than that. I’m ‘way outside it myself, but I certainly see evidence of what you’re talking about. Dynamic, high-fiving, get-outta-my-way midtown alpha girls … Sheepish guys with bedhead feeling like the world has been made for girls … The guys seem to have been neutered, yet they also seem to be addicted to jerking off to Maxim and the internet. The girls are often in splendid shape but couldn’t be more unappealing as people — there isn’t a shred of sweetness or poetry to be found in most of them, as far as I can tell. They’re hard, self-centered, over-entitled, and can’t let go of their smartphones.

    So, my question goes like this: Between the ’70s and ’80s and now, what has changed? It wasn’t abortion, it wasn’t birth control, and it wasn’t women earning salaries. So what can it have been?

    Maybe obesity’s a factor. Makes sense. Maybe porn and popular culture — that makes sense to me too. Today’s urban dynamo young women often look like women in magazine ads. And god knows that music videos and guys’ magazines are relentless assaults on guys’ weak spots. When I leaf thru a Maxim or watch a music video, I often marvel that today’s young dudez ever manage to stop masturbating. They’re being worked-on (and by experts) constantly and relentlessly. This can leave guys in a state of stupefaction, impotence, and exhaustion. It can also leave them addicted to having their buttons pushed.

    Another candidate: upbringings and educations. Y’all have been sold an incredible bunch of lies. (My generation was too, but it didn’t have to do with sex roles.) Waking up from the delusions seems to hit y’all really hard. Which is a good thing, btw.

    Another candidate: material entitlement. To play old fart for a sec, y’all grew up with literally twice the wealth that Boomers (notoriously spoiled) grew up with. And too many of you had parents who over-deferred to their kids.

    I suspect all that only covers a few of the bases. But seriously, the abortion/birth-control/women-making-a-living thing … It’s not new, y’know?

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  210. When she said “commentator” instead of commentator, for some reason I thought she meant some real-life commentator from a newspaper or TV show or something.

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  211. I meant to say “when she said ‘commentator’ instead of ‘commenter’ “

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  212. “The girls are often in splendid shape but couldn’t be more unappealing as people — there isn’t a shred of sweetness or poetry to be found in most of them, as far as I can tell.”

    Oh no, MB, not you too!!!

    *sobbing*

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  213. what the hell is wrong with my avatar?

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  214. “They’re being worked-on (and by experts) constantly and relentlessly. This can leave guys in a state of stupefaction, impotence, and exhaustion. It can also leave them addicted to having their buttons pushed.”

    Advertiser are gaming the male populace.

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  215. hello

    Sometimes emotional connection can make you find people irresistible even if they aren’t objectively that hot.

    Congratulations! You’ve just noticed the key difference between men and women that allows game to be successful.

    Women can be magnetically drawn to a guy even if he’s not objectively hot if they’re emotionally drawn to him. Through study a bunch of guys found out exactly how to push those buttons that women have that make them think that they’re drawn to a guy or feel a special connection with a guy. Women being women and so not terribly reflective just kinda go with what they feel at the time because they’re designed to do that. It would be dangerous to the genes to make women who are persuaded by logical argument because guys, with their larger brains, are simply better at logical argument.

    Women try to test and battle men on ground where they are stronger than men: emotions and subtle status games (men play more obvious status games). Hence the shit test as a prominent feature of mating.

    On the men not liking women who are a bit fat thing; more beta guys are programmed to look at women for long term potential. A woman who is sorta fat when she is looking for a long term partner is a really really bad bet for the long term. Women aren’t really known for improving their looks after getting a commitment. Personally, I know that the women I prefer are a bit bigger than the ones I’d pick for a long term relationship simply because the the bigger women look better now but will probably balloon out of control if they got a man.

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  216. “What’s better – working your ass of to “keep” a single pussy in your life?

    Or being the kind of guy she won’t see husband potential in, but will happily suck of in the men’s room minutes after hello?”

    Leave me out of this.

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  217. Michael, you bring up some very valid points about what has changed. One of my brothers is in his 30’s and single. My other is 20 and engaged.

    Both are handsome, young, talented Black men, and neither complains about the availability of women in general. The problem seems to be the rarity of quality women, and neither of them is overly worried about weight.

    They’re just not finding many women of *any* size suitable for long term relationships. The few they do find, sometimes it goes well, and sometimes not. They know however, that if they drop one, they’ve got to go through the mill of many more frogs to get to the next princess.

    They seem to have adjusted well to the reality, but I know they get annoyed every time they encounter woman who haven’t similarly adjusted. It’s not the fat arses that’s putting my brothers off. It’s the fat heads.

    What has changed, from my point of view, is that we’re entering the third generation of daughters who are out of touch with reality, not the first. This is a tired old tune of overblown senses of entitlement that is dragging on into teenagers between 13 and 19 who have never boiled an egg.

    The few of us who are holding out and believe in taking care of ourselves and our men are finding ourselves dinosaurs teaching our mini-raptors how to bake bread from scratch, for a generation of Pillsbury doughboys raised in a pop-n-fresh can.

    Ultimately, though men have a necessary supportive role unless they take over main nurturing duties, in western society, it is the women’s job to be strong and raise strong kids, some of whom will hopefully have us some strong grandchildren. Somehow, even while being working mothers who didn’t have the luxury to be otherwise, past generations managed to do so until the 70’s.

    What has changed is that the secular sector of our population has now been almost completely stripped of politically incorrect social Darwinism, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, just because in the past it was badly applied.

    In the end though, me and my mini raptors, if we don’t find what we need in the U.S. there are plenty of eastern European guys who aren’t as obsessed with weight as they are with having a hot meal and a warm smile when they come home.

    I’m encouraging my brother to set aside his “stay black” thing or at least include the Black Sea in that.

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  218. Nicole,
    OK, I’m hoping that the slugfest between you and Roissy has cooled off, even though its still a very powerful Full Moon out this weekend, LOL. Just wanted to note a few things.

    First off, wrt your points about the potential Pitfalls of the Inner Ho: Noted.

    Second-my position on the Question of Feminine Beauty has been made clear but what the heck, I’ll do it again. While I do agree that Obesity on the part of Women is a legitimate concern for Men, the issue for me is one of where’s the line, so to speak. As a Black Man, that line is vastly different from my White Brothers, which I have absolutely no problem with. They have as much to define Beauty for them as I do.

    Personally, I’m sorry, Keira Knightly ain’t doin’ NOTHING for me. In no way am I hatin’ on thin gals. Many are beautiful personalities. But in a sexual sense, nada.

    Now, since we all at the very least, acknowledge that Evolution has a strong hand to play in things Amorous, I just want to note something: from a purely Evo POV, its the Zaftig Gal who was sought after when it came to making sure you were gonna be around down the road a piece, NOT the Keira Knightlys of the world. That ideal of Beauty is very, very recent in the Annals of Human History. We’ve all seen the statues, paintings and carvings from present day Iran to Enlightenment era Europe. And they all are “healthy” as Oldheads used to say back in the day.

    That’s just my shot.

    And I think that’s why your brothers, Nicole, don’t go on and on about the weight thing (again, it IS legitimate), because simply put, Black Men DO have a differing standard of Feminine Beauty than do White Men. Which probably explains why White Women who starve themselves to be rail thin like Asian Women often find a Friend in a Brotha.

    One of my favorite reads is called My Secret Life, the Sexual Diary of a Victorian Gentleman named Walter. Read his lavish descriptions of the many, many women he’s bedded in his memoirs. With all due respect to Roissy and Co., they don’t sound anything like what he digs on. Indeed, if anything, it comes a lot closer to what Mu likes. Viva la Difference.

    So, for me, the issue isn’t weight per se, but shape/figure. I can’t dig a gal with a gut, quite frankly. I like full, hourglass figures on a Women, the more defined and lush, the better. She can be my weight or more, provided she’s got the height to go along with it-for example, I’ve dated quite a few Women who were 5’10” and taller, and weighed 200lbs. BUT, they were built very, very well. Not protuding guts, etc. Just very solid. Yet, soft, because I don’t do dig that Janet Jackson hard body stuff. I want curves and softness. Oh, and a rack! Flat-chested chicks do nothing for me. Not. At. All.

    Hmm. Now that I think about it, I’m pretty sure that’s why my resume’ is thin when it comes to Asain gals, because of the fact that very few are built the way I like em. The only one I dealt with was half-Black and she was handlin’, whew!

    So yea, the concern for me on the weight tip is that girlfriend keeps her figure and her weight within a nice parameter, but I don’t go as far as my White Brothers. Though, again, I got no beef with their shot. They’re entitled to that.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  219. On black dudes:
    I was once friends with a black security guard in my retail days. He was married and one day complained to me about the ridiculous choosiness of his male friends and relatives. He told me about one pal whose girlfriend was cute, sweet and had a perfect ass. However, his friend wanted to dump her to look for a woman that both great breasts and a great ass.

    This is just one observation but I think this sort of perfectionism affects every group in the modern world.

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  220. Spinning off of what Hello has said …

    I think another element that’s contributed to the current predicament is … Well, I wouldn’t call it “perfectionism” quite, but almost. It’s the whole “have it your way” / “grab it now” ethos that prosperity and computers (and probably much else) have promoted over the last few decades. Where once much of life was about going out into the world and exploring there, life has in recent decades become much more about getting the world to service your inborn needs and preferences.

    This is a huuuuuuge change. Old model: you extend yourself, you adapt, you learn in the course of doing, you open your personality up … New model: you shop, you bring things to yourself, you massage what’s inborn … You don’t explore and adapt (and learn and open), you just seem to focus ever more obsessively on getting your buttons pushed.

    Old model: sex in the traditional sense (interacting with others, occasionally finding an amazing groove) … New model: masturbation, of what’s apparently a very addictive kind — not just “a functional substitute for real sex,” but “what sex oughta be.” Well, maybe Hello is right, and “perfectionism” is a good word for it.

    So it makes sense that new-model people would grow ever more obsessive, ever more picky, ever more discontented … Because, y’know, sex really *is* meant to be about extending yourself, opening up to other people, etc. Dwelling excessively on the self traps people in unhappiness, and in patterns that reinforce the unhappiness.

    So I blame it all on the iPod.

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  221. Hello, Mike B,
    You both make some excellent points. As I always say, you gotta be to compromise and make tradeoffs.

    We all have our ideals, and then we all must deal with the realworld. The trick is to try to get a happy medium between the two.

    Oh no doubt Hello, Brothas can do their fair share of dumb stuff and dumb thinking. No doubt about it. And Mike Blowhard, I think you’re right, the iPod will be all our ruin. Documented studies have shown that hearing loss among the young are directly linked to Jobs’ little technological wonder.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  222. Mu, it’ll cool off as soon as he understands that he is out of his league.

    Or as a common saying here goes, “Don’t threaten an old whore with a big dick.”

    The kind of look people like is relative, so I don’t knock anybody’s preferences. It’s just that when you’ve seen the things I’ve seen, it gets drilled into your head through plain old exposure that the only thing universal about attraction is the erection.

    So it rings kind of hollow when guys consistently harp on the same thing as being wrong simply because it’s unattractive to them. They don’t even see that while they’re doing it, what they’re trying to make something true by repeating it, instead of looking at it objectively.

    Throughout history and across cultures, there is an amazing variety of preference trends. Some are or have been actually harmful to a woman’s health, making her look unhealthy or deformed, but they were still considered very sexy in their time and place.

    Now, having said that, a rise in weight and height has happened in the U.S. but it’s hardly an obesity epidemic. We’re talking 3 BMI points.

    All this panic and paranoia isn’t warranted. Guys who equate beauty with thinness *think* that the problem is that they’re looking around and seeing mostly fat chicks, but the reality is that they’re just seeing ugly chicks who don’t take good care of themselves.

    It’s clear that in the U.S. there is an ugliness epidemic, but it’s not due to fat. Being pretty or ugly isn’t going to be radically altered by 2 or 3 BMI points either way.

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  223. Hmm, good comments, Nicole.

    In light of that, Question:

    To what, do you attribute the “ugliness” epidemic? Because I think you make a good point-for me, its just not a question of weight gain, although again, I do concede that its legit. But rather, a lot of Women don’t seem interested in looking good accross the board. And I’m not talking about spending all day at the beauty shop either.

    Holla back

    Salaam
    Mu

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  224. Mu, in my opinion, women would be alot prettier if they focused on enhancing their beauty rather than co-opting someone else’s. I’m not a radical hippy when it comes to beauty. I have a website dedicated to makeup and beauty for darker skinned women. I’m just a firm believer in that beauty comes from within…physical beauty comes first and foremost from a comination of physical and mental health.

    Chronic negativity shapes the face badly and twists the body over time, and it starts to show as early as the 20’s. If someone isn’t getting enough activity, isn’t drinking enough water, and scowls too often, it’s uglifying.

    Neglecting one’s teeth, bad posture, and a host of other negative habits will in time, make someone look quite repellant regardless of their weight. On a woman who already looks unhealthy and broke down, added weight will just be icing on the cake.

    Why women aren’t taking care of themselves is probably because they got it in their heads that they are ugly, and it’s a self fulfilling prophecy. They may overcompensate with psychobabble and inappropriate clothing, but it’s obvious that they don’t care enough about the things that are really important to a woman’s look.

    Their moms were uncaring about their looks, and their dads weren’t around or weren’t honest enough to tell them the truth like mine did…”You’re a beautiful, smart young lady, and the only thing wrong with you is your attitude.”

    Good dads train their daughters on how to attract and maintain relationships with good men. If a girl doesn’t have a good man in her life, she’s missing crucial input about her appearance and her approach.

    If the dad is addicted to porn though, and doesn’t know what to tell the girl except to lose some weight, he’s not going to be helpful. Dads have to take their job of nurturing logic in their kids, especially daughters, much more seriously…though that’s kind of hard to do if you’re being told that doing so will damage them.

    I guess it all comes down to not believing the hype. Tell your daughters the truth. Even if they rebel a bit, reality will kick in when they start wanting to attract guys who will stick around.

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  225. Mu, I don’t know about where you live but I’m seeing a real ugliness epidemic with stuff like dreadlocks, piercings, tattoos and so on. Young people (it’s both men and women) now seem to think that developing style is about sticking as much random “unique” crap with “personality” on you as you can.

    It’s entirely different just over the border in Estonia or Russia where the women still understand that while a dozen piercings on your face will make you look unique, unique is not hot to guys. There’s definitely a combined fat element to it: lots of overweight chicks are trying to compensate with “style” or “personality”.

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  226. “dreadlocks”

    Very few people can pull off multiple piercings and even fewer white people can pull off dreads. However I think that the ones who can are very sexy. Few people really know themselves when they embrace these trends and end up laughing at their photos years later. The same for tattoos. However a lot of people, particularly girls have hidden tattoos. I think tattoos are sexy.

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  227. Jaakeli, if you could wear something that would automatically repel the attention of anyone outside of your preferred social/sexual range, wouldn’t you do it?

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  228. Nicole, Jakkeli,
    Thanks for the comments. I agree wholeheartedly.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  229. Michael Blowhard:

    Look, something has changed in the last decade or two, and it isn’t abortion, birth control, or women making money. All three of those were around in plenty in the ’70s and ’80s, my own single-and-dating days. Yet people paired off and had a good time.

    The world y’all describe is light-years different than that.

    But again, are you really so sure that your experience in the ’70s and ’80s was representative of the general population? Forgive me, but I just can’t believe your descriptions of those days as a great fun time for everyone. I would bet good money that the sexual market was equally brutal and merciless in your younger days, except that you were fairly successful in it, and you generalized your experience to the rest of the population. After all, unlike regular capitalist markets, competing for the attention of the opposite sex is a fixed-sum game, so under laissez-faire, it can be expected to lead to an even worse cutthroat competition, and the losers will lose really badly.

    Your attitude doesn’t surprise me, because back in those days, many more young people believed the message of the prophets of the sexual revolution that “free love” would lead to happiness for everyone except a few evil deviant elements who are guilty for their own predicament, and that anyone opposing sexual laissez-faire must be either an evil fascist reactionary or a frustrated psychotic idiot. Thus, the losers in the sexual market, however numerous, suffered in silence and didn’t dare to speak out. In fact, they had no clue what exactly their problem was anyway. At the same time, the destructive social effects of the sexual revolution were either denied or written off as trivial collateral damage of the new ideal of freedom and hedonistic opportunities for everyone — the latter being a Big Lie, of course.

    Now, fast forward a generation later, and unsurprisingly, you see that many people have learned some lessons and adapted to the situation as best as they could. They might still pay some lip service to the idea of sexual freedom, which has now become an established PC cultural meme — a part of the ideological hegemony, to co-opt a term from Gramsci — but at least increasingly many people are learning how to avoid some of its dangers and destructive consequences, how to realistically estimate what they can expect given their sexual market value, and how to increase that market value by whatever means available. Of course, people still suffer from confusion, misdiagnosis of problems, delusions by pretty lies, etc., but the popular wisdom has definitely moved in a more realistic direction — and in a brutally competitive market, a realistic attitude isn’t one of spontaneous, relaxed fun. (Unfortunately, some aspects of this rational reaction have been hijacked by feminists and turned into man-hating propaganda tools, like e.g. the date-rape hysteria.)

    I might be wrong, but this definitely seems like the most plausible explanation to me, even if it is a bit simplified, caricatured, and ignoring some other significant factors. Basically, what you’re observing is people adapting themselves to the cruel reality of the sexual free market that was sugar-coated with pretty lies back in your day.

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  230. Vlad — I’m happy to dwell on the downsides of the ’70s and ’80s, but in this case I think I’m right. Don’t mean to paint it as a utopia of anything, by the way, just contrasting it with the picture I pick up of today.

    And no, there really wasn’t this every-man-for-himself, mutually-untrusting hostility between the sexes back then, there really wasn’t. I only rarely saw the kind of bitterness and antagonism that’s on display here, and it was mostly in super-socially-ambitious groups — gals at a country club competing for the top dog, that kind of thing.

    People from the normal range of life were generally cheerfully adventurous and warm towards each other. Romance was a dance … Nearly everyone took part … Hearts got broken and dreams fulfilled, etc … Eventually (often after five or ten years of relationships and affairs), 95% of people who wanted long-term pairings-up found them … But no one saw the opposite sex as this enemy-like monolith that needed to be campaigned against (or if you did, it was kind of a funny routine you were working.)

    Things have become much colder and harsher since, even if I reduce what the evidence here suggests by 90%.

    A few more examples: No one ranked women on a scale of 1-10 — it was assumed that there were a handful of unreally gorgeous girls, and a handful of really unfortunate girls, but in between was a big stretch of attractive-to-pretty girls, and a lot depended on your tastes, whether you got along, time of day, etc. People had a much looser and more open attitude towards female attractiveness.

    And guys weren’t divided up into Alphas and Betas and Omegas, they really weren’t. There were a handful of winners and a handful of sadsacks, but everyone else was understood to be making his own way somehow, striking out sometimes and getting on base sometimes.

    And we were all living with birth control, abortion, women earning paychecks, etc. It was a sexually crazy time in many ways, but many of the basics of male-female interaction hadn’t yet been completely abandoned, and for most people the general assumption was that, whatever the misunderstandings, gals ‘n’ guyz were finally on the same team.

    So something has changed since. Might be as simple as: the ’70s and ’80s crowd grew up before feminism, so they were anchored in trad sex roles no matter what, while the 2000s crowd grew up with no roots in trad sex roles at all. Might have to do with educations and brainwashings. Might have to do with many other factors too.

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  231. Regarding what Michael asked: why are men acting like neutered 12-yr-olds while their female counterparts are feminine-looking but manic and aggressive…

    Possible factors:
    1) Chemically altered endocrine systems. The sheer volume of pharmaceuticals being dumped/urinated/shat into our sewer systems is like nothing the world has ever seen. How well are those compounds being filtered out before it used for irrigation or our tap water? Similarly plastics ingredients, like phthalates, apparently cause permanent damage to male reproductive systems. And many chemicals in modern cosmetics can affect breast milk and sometimes lead to extremely early puberty.
    At one time we had heavy metals like lead causing brain damage, now it’s exotic pharma-byproducts causing shriveled gonads.
    2) The electronica lifestyle — people are more inclined to stay up late at night, not at a club or in a back seat but in front of the computer monitor. (Guilty.) Proven to increase adult risk for all kinds of degenerative disease, and likely has developmental effects on kids.
    3) Altered diets. I don’t recall exactly when, but around the time of the aerobics craze a lot of people switched from beef, whole milk, eggs and bacon –> skinless chicken breasts, skim milk, whole grain bread/cereal and Baco-Bits (and other nasty soy products). Latest dietary research is revealing that cholesterol and certain saturated fats are not only acceptable, but necessary and even health promoting. Notably there was an explosion in obesity once the FDA started promoting the Food Pyramid based on grains. And food researchers have noted that certain elements in soy-based foods and some pesticides act as estrogen imitators in the human body.

    Interesting twist on this last factor — more poorly informed or more traditional families were less likely to change their eating habits based on the recommendations of the government. Which ironically may have worked in their favor, especially since grain products (e.g. biscuits, graham crackers) were the primary source of dietary trans fat up until a few years ago.

    It’s impossible to untether these and other factors to determine how important each is, I’m afraid.

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  232. Michael Blowhard:

    People from the normal range of life were generally cheerfully adventurous and warm towards each other. Romance was a dance … Nearly everyone took part … Hearts got broken and dreams fulfilled, etc … Eventually (often after five or ten years of relationships and affairs), 95% of people who wanted long-term pairings-up found them … But no one saw the opposite sex as this enemy-like monolith that needed to be campaigned against (or if you did, it was kind of a funny routine you were working.)

    Things have become much colder and harsher since, even if I reduce what the evidence here suggests by 90%.

    I think I know exactly what you’re talking about. When I compare the modern life in North America with the situation back home in Eastern Europe, and also with what I’ve heard about the ’70s and ’80s from older folks, I definitely agree that the life of North American youth has become much less warm, cheerful, and adventurous. Opportunities for relaxed, unpretentious, low-budget, but still great fun have been severely diminished, and instead, young people’s idea of “fun” nowadays mainly consists of depressingly regimented forms of “entertainment” and ridiculous status posturing. Some of the aspects of game that strike you as cold and harsh are probably just intelligent adaptations to this new environment.

    However, I still think you’re underestimating the extent of inherent pathologies of the sexual free market that must have existed even 20 or 30 years ago. In the society where I grew up (various parts of former Yugoslavia), the general atmosphere is still similar to the way you describe your younger years; I have a feeling that post-Cold War Eastern Europe has been roughly two decades behind North America in the developments relevant for this discussion. We didn’t experience the second-wave feminism and the subsequent suppression and disappearance of traditional masculinity (although the PC ethos coming from the West is getting increasingly influential).

    So, yes, back home we had lots of spontaneous, anarchic fun, and there was no general spirit of enmity between the sexes. It is pretty much like that even nowadays. But yet, the relations between the sexes still follow the same general pattern that you observe today: a small number of men getting tons of action with hot girls and a much greater number of losers getting only scraps, if even that. The only difference is that this situation is generally not recognized. The losers still won’t admit their problem even to themselves, much less develop and learn effective strategies to fix it; the winners don’t seem to realize that they are only a lucky minority. Everyone except a handful of conservatives are ardent believers in the virtuousness and desirability of sexual laissez-faire. However, once our era of sexual liberalism matures to the same point as present-day America, I can easily see the general spirit becoming much harsher and more cynical.

    So, I would bet my money that the present American situation is simply a natural consequence of sexual laissez-faire in the long run.

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  233. And of course to me it all looks even worse, since 15 minutes away there’s Estonia with just about the lowest overweight rate in any country that isn’t a neighbour of Ethiopia.

    Your wallet has a high BMI? That’s 15 minutes by helicopter. The fastest ferry takes an hour and a half from Helsinki to Tallinn.

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  234. KAB: “nice, Dirty Blonde and QT have straight up admitted they’re stupid cunts. Bravo!!!”

    kick a bitch, i’m totally with T – love your trollling and sometimes your comments are so hardcore they turn me on, but seriously???

    this is what cracks me up about this blog. the guys posting [roissy] and commenting all think we’re like robots, where once you learn the source code (aka game) you can mess with the program governing our brains to your heart’s desire.

    but, when faced with the fact that this may indeed be reality (and i’m ashamed to admit it, but hey it’s human nature), you call us stupid cunts?! what the fuck?! we’re trying to help you get laid by telling you these theories work. don’t shoot (or mushroom stamp) the messenger.

    oh, and thanks QT for backing me up on the effects of well-played game (even if that guy did screw up in the end)! 😉

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  235. @Michael Blowhard:
    What changed, was the princess factor. I know busted chicks, who think that they’re entitled to money-makers because… well, I’m still trying to figure that out.

    The princess/me!Me!MEEEE! is what changed the game. The woman who tries to not pay her share of the tab that she’s sharing with friends, b/c she’s special. The woman doesn’t think she should have to pay rent “this” month. The woman who’s parents are paying cell-phone bills and car insurance, when she makes 60k+. People in my age range (20’s, I’m mid-20’s) are not growing up or taking responsibility for any of their actions, and in the dating scene, it is playing out in an ugly game of king of the mountain at recess time. That men also turned into princesses and over-entitled princes is also a problem.

    I heard that some of my younger relatives got trophies JUST for playing in a little league team. We got popsicles, pizza, and a “Well, try again next year”, after losing. When those first rejections come at them, it will be rough.
    -Grace.

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