Natural Game Is Dead

Has there been too much emphasis by the seduction community on teaching “natural game”? Are we headed down a road where everything we’ve learned about women’s motives and desires becomes clouded over by ideological status jockeying, as a retrograde belief among pickup instructors and authors of game books takes hold that the only true game is unthinking, unconscious natural game?

Reader “ProDude” sent me the following email:

Hi, I don’t care if this letter gets put on your site or not, i just had to get something off my chest.

The current state of game is absolutely terrible. As you said in an earlier post, the influx of the “natural” style is ultimately killing the scene in my opinion.

I went to a few of these small monthly PUA get togethers in NYC – you pay about 10 dollars, listen to an instructor or some other presenter talk for 40 minutes, then talk to the other dudes there to hopefully meet new wings (which is all well and good).

The last few times I went there were some fairly well known “Naturals” around the NYC area, one was supposedly a former instructor at a major company. And their speeches amounted to nothing less than the old “just be yourself” speech we are used to hearing.

Now, being that my approach is finely crafted over my time spent gaming to reflect my personality, I am a good person to give this advice to. However, as I looked around the room I saw some very different faces.
Older guys, balding guys, really weak looking guys, and a dude that I had learned got divorced 6 months earlier. At the front of the room sat a dude who was so greasy, that I was pretty sure I can taste and smell him just from looking at him.
And what was the advice [the instructor] was giving to these people? Basically – act like a drunk 25 year old.
Of course it would work for me – I am 25 and very social. Of course it work for him – turns out he is 26 and a pretty good looking dude. But what about the other people there? What about the divorced guy, the old guy, the weak guy and the stinky guy? are they gonna get laid acting like a frat guy? Probably not.
Sure, he made some good points during his 40 minute speech, I’m not gonna fault him for that.

However, an even funnier thing happened later – he invited a bunch of people out that night to sarge with him. I was honestly excited because I wanted to see how a person that games for a LIVING does in the field. We all met up at a hipsterish bar and everyone began working their game. But whats this? Was I outshining him? I absolutely hate to toot my own horn, but here I was getting stronger reactions from women than a guy that charges a thousand dollars to hang with him for a weekend.
Let me repeat, I am not a mack superhero, or one of those super PUAs that only exist in bullshitted field reports. But here I was, doing better than a pro. That’s bullshit, that shouldn’t happen.

So I leave you with the following questions.

What does it take to really be a good PUA? What does it take to teach? Why does every person that has ever gotten laid suddenly an “expert”? Who, in you experience, is the best PUA/instructor/teacher and why? All of this shit is really bothering me, because in my opinion game is here to undo the years of damage that society has done, but I am afraid it might just do the opposite if this weak shit goes unchecked.

This is a problem. As Venusian Arts pickup instructor “Knack” hinted at in this guest post, I suspect the seduction community is abandoning the hard-won lessons that made it successful in the first place. The Game Revolution is drowning under an onslaught of PUA ego self-stroking, marketing razzle dazzle, and simple sloth. Greed and hubris is killing it before it has had a chance to fully mature, accelerated by modern social networks.

Ideological revolutionary movements follow this pattern:

Apostasy

A determined intellectual core of demoralized subjects of the status quo revolt. First, they focus their critical gaze at society; then, they turn it upon themselves. In time, their disgust and anger with the present system coalesces into a call to action.

Rebellion

Like-minded individuals find each other, faster than ever thanks to the global information supersexway. Small groups begin to form, bringing curious onlookers and searchers for answers into their orbit of influence. A rebellious subculture is born, dedicated to acquisition and application of new knowledge and the discard of lies.

Agglomeration

Dissent among the rebels is freely expressed. Trial and error and hypothesis rule the day. Anger, hate, love, admiration flow like a river, as do lay reports. Internet message boards and forums blow up (See: alt.seduction.fast and fastseduction.com, circa 1997 – 2000). Creativity blooms, fueled by a chaotic energy. The best is weeded from the useless and a system for change takes shape. A movement arises, Commandments in hand.

Hierarchization

The ambitious and the clever capitalize on the new paradigm. Businesses and ordered governing bodies emerge to channel the yearning of the rebel masses. Knowledge filters down and brings its blessings to everyone willing to embrace it. There is much treasure to plunder, and a frantic race to cash in. A warning flare shoots up as egos grow too big.

Dissolution

The natural inclination of humans is to believe they have a better way. The tried and tested ideology of a successful movement strains and creaks as it is tugged from various directions by those who want to inch it in the direction of improvement or reform. This tendency is exacerbated by the greed of teachers and writers and self-glorifiers who need something to set their services apart from competing business models. The original movement splinters into petty factions, along the way sloughing off the hard-won knowledge that defined its success.

Infighting

Anger and hate return, but this time not in the service of creativity and revolution, but in the service of fighting over the scraps of followers with a dollar bill left to spend. All energy is wasted on self-promotion; little goes to actual learning. It is now social status uber alles for the instructors and mentors, a bunch who have grown fat and torpid on their success and fame and now find it easier to teach to the lowest common denominator — namely, the game of the “natural”, which is nothing more than the game of good looks, aloofness, and saying “Hi”.

Betrayal

At long last, the movement so devolves that it betrays the central tenets of its foundation. The original mission is lost, replaced by a lackluster adherence to pop psychobabble and a lazy reliance on “inner game” or “natural game”. Everything that makes game tough to learn but generous in reward is jettisoned in favor of feelgood nostrums and vague handwaving. Cynicism among the followers is rampant and the revolution winds down to a caricature of itself.

The state of seduction is at the moment somewhere between dissolution and betrayal. A cyclical process that normally takes decades or even centuries has been compressed into a mere ten years by the rapidity with which the internet permits the stages of revolution to progress.

I have heard now from a number of men who have participated in seminars and workshops that the pickup instructors are essentially relying on their good looks for in-field demonstration. Worse, they are inculcating students with a steady stream of half-baked “inner game” motivational shibboleths that do them absolutely no good when face to face with women. And they are slowly getting away from teaching the routines, tactics, logistics, psychological ploys and body language improvements that are at the heart of seduction.

My advice to the seduction community, and take this advice in the generous spirit it is given, is to get back to the basics. That means returning to the *science* of seduction, and abandoning the nebulous *art* of seduction. Natural game is a fool’s errand destined to fail for all but… well… naturals. There’s a reason I frequently cite Mystery’s original masterpiece “The Mystery Method”. Its routines may be dated, its focus too club-oriented, and its acronyms nerdy, but word for word it is the best compendium and most effective strategy sheet for meeting, seducing, and fucking women hotter than what you are accustomed to fucking. An example from my own life: During a two year stretch when I was using almost TO THE LETTER what I learned from Mystery Method and online forums to seduce women, I banged more babes than I did at any other time of my life.

My advice to potential students of seduction seminars and workshops: Save your money. There is too much chaff to separate from the few precious kernels of wheat. If you must spend exhorbitant fees on a questionable product, do your research first. That means actually talking to students who have taken the classes which interest you. In fact, if any of you have taken workshops and gone in field with pickup instructors I am offering you the opportunity to guest post on my blog with reviews of your experiences. Knowledge is power.

Natural game is dead. Long live artificial game.





Comments


  1. on November 17, 2009 at 1:12 pm Wendy Schwartz

    Just ordered a copy of “The Mystery Method” for my 16 yr old son who BTW lives with his mother from hell..

    *stomach hurts from laughing so hard at the prospect*

    Congratulations. Instead of handing him some Emerson or Jung, you are handing him a tall, faggy, make-up wearing, metro-pussy like “Mystery” as his hero.

    I’m sorry and we wonder what is happening to the world?

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  2. Completely off topic, but damn this is hot.

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  3. as a side note, I’m surprised to see that you have not commented yet on the infamous young feminist porn star Sacha Grey who recently made a movie and is going on tour to talk about how women should be themselves sexually and give in to their desires. she is very smart and quite controversial and is taking the movie critics by storm.

    surprised that you or roosh haven’T commented on her ideas yet

    http://blogs.browardpalmbeach.com/juice/2009/05/sasha_grey_girlfriend_experience_exxxotica.php

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  4. Roissy:

    I don’t have lots of experience with lots of different instructors but I would recommend any of the Venusian Arts instructors as I have heard things from the PUA’s in my local lair concerning various experiences they’ve had, and almost to man, they praise mystery method, some of David DeAngelo, Roosh, and Mode1 techniques. Others, I’m not naming names, have very bad reps among the PUA’s I know. Knack is an excellent instructor, but he is away from the US for a year or two teaching overseas. NLP seems to be effective to a point, but it’s not the end all and be all of pickup technique and parts of it are very morally problematic.

    Just my two cents from the lower end of the PUA totem pole.

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  5. Mehow has some excellent thoughts on this here. He explains more on his blog here. I have to say though that I agree with Tenmagnet that all the stacking isn’t really your game, it’s more like training wheels to help you learn game.

    My own “game” right now is pretty minimal. I don’t worry too much about getting in this or that story or routine or getting in so many negs or teases. It’s much more about being aware of the general principles of attraction and avoiding obvious screw ups.

    On the other hand, I have seen how effective by the numbers Mystery Method can be in a club setting, where you have to overwhelm girls in the midst of a a thousand distractions. I have basically abandoned bars and clubs to focus on the girls I’m actually interested in, but over the past summer I went out with this guy who was a routine spitting machine, and in a club setting it was absolutely devastating.

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  6. Natural game, in my opinion is inevitable once one masters the fundamentals of game. That is, push/pull, qualifying, etc. This all becomes “natural” once you start getting good. Bringing sexual energy, enthusiasm, controlling the frame, etc is all part of being a “natural”. I think the mastery of structured game is important. However, once that is achieved, natural game takes over.

    I’m a big fan of RSD’s foundations, transformations, and the blueprint. Hell, even the Jeffy Show was great. Anyway, all these instructors won’t help you at all if you don’t go out and do approaches.

    Even after you only have a base knowledge of game, the best intructor is the approach.

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  7. This is kind of interesting because I would imagine that R, Roosh, and VK as a wing trio are very different game beasts. Judging from VK’s vegas trip, I wonder if being a zero body fat, shirtless muscleman even counts as game.
    But there you go, three different variations of a theme go forth and do what they can and pass on their different knowledge sets.
    If game is being diluted by naturals, maybe these seminar customers need to look for mentors who look more like Roosh to keep it real.
    Anyway, just be yourself? Isn’t that the problem for most guys in the first place?

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  8. on November 17, 2009 at 1:02 pm personal trainer

    Your a life saver Roissy…

    Just ordered a copy of “The Mystery Method” for my 16 yr old son who BTW lives with his mother from hell..

    Like


  9. Two things:

    1. I don’t think a man’s game should be judged by one night. I’ve had bad nights where I probably couldn’t get laid in a whorehouse, but then other nights where I’m reading from a phonebook and girls are competing for me. Point is there is large variance of what you can see a skilled guy do on any one night. I think watching a guy do 15 approaches over 3 nights is a sounder testament to skill.

    2. I always thought teaching natural game was an oxymoron. It’s not natural if you have to teach it, now is it? The reason natural game is so popular is because it’s easier to sell products where you say “Get laid while being yourself, just update your wardrobe and start vibing!” than “Mmmhmm we’re going to have to make some real serious changes here.”

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  10. I first started in the seduction community around 2001. I barely started scratching the surface when I finally became an item with my oneitis at the time… I dunno, I think I grew on her like a fungus… (Actually, now that I think back, we hooked up after I blew up on her face cuz some guy from out of town was going to go visit her… then we fucked. haha)

    Anyways, when we broke up in 2004 I remembered some of the material and slowly started devouring all the seduction forums, PUA materials, and blogs I could find.

    Like Roissy, I got more results than ever when I followed Mystery’s method to the letter. I got some results from Ross Jeffries and lots of succes from DeAngelo… But Mystery Method was by far the most useful for me, and I’m an extremely conservative person and don’t care for ridiculous peacocking.

    I’ve noticed that most of the other gurus and PUAs that I’ve read since my own personal Golden Age (2005-2008) have been crap and ripoffs, just trying to make a quick buck. In fact, even though DeAngelo provided me a great deal of success, I think he’s one of these opportunistic PUAs that I’d love to punch in the face out of principle. Same goes for that whiny Tyler Durden kid.

    I asked this when Knack wrote that guest post a few weeks ago, and I’ll ask again… does anyone know the chronology of the rise of particular PUAs? Who came before who? As a rule of thumb, anyone that emergend after 2005 or 2006 is probably a poser.

    Just saying.

    Throwing it out there.

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  11. Anybody can call himself a master PUA and game instructor, and there are legions of desperate men who will throw money at them in hopes of a solution.

    As far as artificiality, most human behavior is artificial. If you’re saying anything other than, “Hey, you want to fuck?” you’re being phony. And it’s OK.

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  12. Almost all the new wave PUA guys have the demeanor of used car salesmen and the marketing methods of late night infomercials, along with usual undercurrent of toolishness that they have a hard time ridding themselves despite their vast personal improvement. Off-putting. Good luck on finding the wheat.

    In my own experience, far-from-natural guys have an impossible time of learning and implementing natural game — good body language, vibe, right-tenored teasing, and subtle dominance — which, deployed in full glory, trumps all other methods. It is something innate, or close to it. For a near-natural though, “natural game” material is great stuff to learn because it gives you the confidence and tools to bring your latent natural gifts to the fore, immediately, in all environments.

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  13. This is pretty damn brilliant. I’ve thought of writing a piece called “The return of the outer game” but you nailed it.

    Some questions:

    What possibilities exist to capitalize on this new come full circle towards the roots for the eager capitalist with a plentiful skillset? How should one market this new return of the old school? Maybe there are similar phenomenons where the old school variant of something crowded out the new school (Classic Coke?).

    I’m guessing that, according to the thesis-antithesis-synthesis, model this third wave of pick-up (in my book the zeroth wave or proto-PU was Ross Jeffries, then Mystery/RSD/Style, then the inner game naturals) should be a bit different than old school outer game? What stuff will get absorbed from the various natural schools?

    What do you charge for articles?

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  14. I personally think inner game is a worthwhile pursuit, but PU should be PU. If you want self-help, read a fucking Tony Robbins book. Any theories as to why this inner game stuff became so popular in the community? Was it just Owen Cook discovering Eckhart Tolle and everyone else just tagged along, lol?

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  15. Hanging out with naturals and hoping it will rub off never worked for me, in fact it was a disaster. And people who pick up a skill easily are the worst instructors, because they can’t understand why people who have less natural skill don’t get it.

    I suspect most of the well-known instructors are teaching things that are pretty natural to them personally.

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  16. I agree with omegaman that people who pick up a skill easily are bad teachers… I think that they just “get it” and have trouble explaining it in the same way that whoever discovered the wheel knew it worked, but couldn’t break it down to technical details like constant radius, coefficient of friction, etc…

    But I am a BIG believer in hanging out with naturals… Even if they can’t explain it (and many naturals, in fact, REFUSE to give you pointers), if you pay close enough attention SOMETHING has to rub off on you.

    Sometimes they’re not even “naturals” per se, but lesser alphas that have certain characteristics that help them with chicks and lack the self control to harness them efficiently.

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  17. Another question:

    Let’s say you are one of those guys who natural game will work for. Ie tall, handsome, good build, confident, social, naturally teases and qualifies girls, etc, yet you do not want to rely on that. You want to have “skills that will transfer into another body”. Ie you want to learn Game for the sake of Game, to take yourself to the next level even though you get lots of quality poon by default. What is the optimal strategy for such a rare case? Going out with a bag over your head?

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  18. There’s a very real mischaracterization of what ‘Natural Game’ really is. This misunderstanding is a byproduct of a new and evolving science. Make no mistake, Game is a science in that it’s a methodology that facilitates sex that’s involved (and still involves) a LOT of research. As such we’re required to create terminology for new abstract ideas. “Game” is just one of many terms we use for lack of, or in convenience of better ones. Anyone with a cursory understanding of the new seduction sciences knows what ONEitis is, or LMR, or the dynamics behind a LJBF rejection. But trying to constantly quantify these for people unfamiliar, or to expound upon other areas of the science with these as the foundation is tedious if not impossible.

    At some point Game MUST become internalized; if not then it’s simply a script that’s blathered off like a series of “if then” options under certain circumstances by rote memorization. It needs to become Natural for the Game to evolve. This internalization is necessary for the progress of the science; it must become an innovative, adaptive and improvised for the person applying it, both inside and outside of a relationship. That is Natural Game.

    Game teaching gurus espousing Natural Game are putting the cart before the horse. It’s like handing a white belt beginner his black belt after a month of training and expecting him to kick a true black belt’s ass in his first sparring match. Natural Game is the end-game. It’s the last phase of learning the PUA tools and the reasons behind why they work. Guys going off to seminars or buying DVDs of any self-styled mPUA need to understand the phases of progression first. Most guys want the magic formula that will get them laid the fastest without ever understanding the consequences of not understanding the process. Just so long as the TV turns on, who cares how it works – that’s the mentality.

    And just as a side note, David D’ Angelo has been in the Betrayal stage of that run down for a LONG time now. Beware.

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  19. The thing with implementing characteristics naturals have is that what works for them may not necessarily work for you. However, that is where approaches and testing those characteristics come in.

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  20. Once you’ve mastered the fundamentals, hanging out with naturals or even just observing guys who are dating attractive women can be very beneficial. But if you don’t have a solid basis in theory you won’t know what to look for and thus you won’t be able to benefit from these natural real world demonstrations.

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  21. Wendy Schwartz:

    I have to assume you are playing. You do say you sometimes post just to get reactions.

    I would not critique a book if you haven’t read it. Trust me , the Mystery Method is much better for a 16 year old than Jung who will do nothing but confuse him.

    More to the point, why not both?

    I’ve read Jung, yet I consider Mystery Method a Masterpiece in its own right. I guess I must simply be stupid.

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  22. We should keep in mind that different guys have different problems. For some guys, their lack of inner game really is the main thing that is holding them back and thus the natural game stuff may be all they need.

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  23. Very interesting. This post couldn’t have come in a better moment for me.

    I tell why.

    I’m new to PUA material. Most of my previous sucess was due direct observation, error/practice, and other readings. Its surprising how Soren Kierkegaard’s “In Vino Veritas/The Banket” speech of John The Seducer is in fact actual, acurate, and revealing to someone who never ever read any PUA before.

    My own ways and taste for literature, has made me a player of the sort that prefers clever lines, laconic atitude, and opts for a distinct-yet-perverse posture. Time proved me it doesnt work all the time, with every single woman, but also showed me that the exact public it doesnt appeal to (bimbos and status whores) happen never been much of my interest.

    Then I met PUA writings, and decided to take a look at the state of affairs among my compatriot players. It was disapointing.

    To a vast number of them, “game” consisted solely on going reckless, and the most dumbass type of untought chauvinism. I look at them and wonder how long could they keep that as they would age: most of them were 20 somethings boys, middle/upper class, spoiled kids without a minimum of class.

    No wonder I became a habitual reader of this blog. The very writing style finds echo in my own frame.

    As for these players I mentioned (these kids who claim to be PUA in my local area), there is a perception from my part that many aspects of game that are better off just hinted, in theyr case, are made ostensive. Instead of *being* an asshole who looks decent (and is intruiguing because is confusing), they amp the outside appearance of an asshole, until the point it gets merely obnoxious, fast talking, noisy, and just plain disgusting. Theyr very presence raises bitch shields in chain reaction.

    Given I am in a latin country, extraversion is not a wild card, its just folk ways. Amp this, and all you get is a caricature. On the other hand, a little bit of noblesse oblidge suddently distinguishes you from the majority. A matter of taste and proper tone, spiced with game.

    What comes out of it? Guys who tried to learn “game” from this kids I mentioned, fail miserably, and become Beta Haters. Because, well, they are not 20 somethings meat heads, middle upper class loudmouths, and fail to recognize that theyr position does not allow them to indulge in obnoxious behaviour and get away with it.

    One cannot disregard his position if he aims to improve it.

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  24. By the way, my primary language is not english. Take it in account when reading my words.

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  25. RSD is probably the biggest culprit in this bullshit move to “inner game” One can only become a natural after he’s developed a sound understanding of all the fundamental techniques and theories. Pushing 40 year old balding dudes to “be more positive” and to “not give a fuck what she thinks” is NOT teaching game. All the great PUAs eventually do become Naturals, but I guarantee you every single one of them started off by learning the actual science.

    Liked by 1 person


  26. on November 17, 2009 at 1:48 pm personal trainer

    Confidence can go far. Some days I wake up and can just feel it. I can go out to a club and smile, laugh and stand tall. Its totally natural and I often score 8s when I feel invincible that but you cant survive on natural game alone…

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  27. Mystery and Neil Strauss had a hand in quickening this Life Cycle as well. They popularized it to the extent that there is over-saturation in the market.

    Like the Mafia or MS-13, its time to find new, unplucked markets. Take it rural or to the Midwest. The only systematic Game (MM type with routines) I’ve seen run in Kansas is one Israeli guy running a palm routine on a chick. The market is wide open.

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  28. One of the things that makes me the most angry is pushing guys into sets without giving them something to say. Brutal, and not very productive in the long term.

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  29. “Thursday

    One of the things that makes me the most angry is pushing guys into sets without giving them something to say. Brutal, and not very productive in the long term.”

    Just did a boot camp where I did 50 such approaches…

    This whole thread has been very illuminating.

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  30. Wendy Schwartz

    Congratulations. Instead of handing him some Emerson or Jung, you are handing him a tall, faggy, make-up wearing, metro-pussy like “Mystery” as his hero.

    But your “arm candy”, Eric, is a tall, faggy, ear rings and puka shells wearing metro-pussy.

    And ‘The Mystery Method’ is about techniques, it’s not just about the author.

    And it’s free here:

    Download bittorrent software first.

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  31. News just in:

    The best out there are not teaching others to pick up girls in workshops.

    Most pick up artist teachers are woefully inexperienced. Their careers, a blip on the radar.

    If you started to swoop girls after The Game came out (when did that come out 2005?) then you only have 4 years in the Game. You are still a white belt.

    Even if you started before The Game (BTG), what was your track record in the 90’s?

    This is akin to someone telling you they are a master stock trader when they have only traded stock for a few years during an up market.

    Or someone telling you how to invest in real estate, when they have been in the game from 2003-2006.

    You need to have staying power to get to my status.

    See you at the top.

    – MPM

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  32. It is important for all facets in a mans life to be in order for him to be successful. Just spitting game is not going to help if you are stinky and do not groom properly. Bottom line is work on yourself from outer game to your looks to everything in between. Do not be yourself. Be your best self.

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  33. @Zunder:

    just handed you your beta-boy ass back on the “Tale of Two Loyalties” thread. it’s the last comment as of this posting. feel free to read it and weep!

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  34. The truth

    “Do not be yourself. Be your best self.”

    Well said.

    – MPM

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  35. on November 17, 2009 at 3:26 pm personal trainer

    Wendy Schwartz

    Congratulations. Instead of handing him some Emerson or Jung, you are handing him a tall, faggy, make-up wearing, metro-pussy like “Mystery” as his hero.

    He will be the Hero especially when hes sucking champagne dripping off of tits.

    PS
    Ur still queen douche nugget.

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  36. As an outsider, I’d say that game appears to have several facets.
    1. is the need to sarge and to get used to the experience of talking to girls you used to consider too pretty to talk to (Roosh).
    2. the “science” of creating attraction via Mystery Method (actual technical game).
    3. building internal game to be interesting and alpha (Style or roissy).
    I’d have to agree with others that without step 2, the actual building blocks of creating attraction via the 9 mystery phases, parts 1 and 3 are just generic self improvement garbage. Yet, you can’t apply step 2 without step 1, etc…
    I’ve seen DC puamatuers doing the “let’s just be hyper aggressive sargers” thing and it’s just sloppy. I agree with Thursday, if I were a beta or worse, paying a grand to learn game, being given a pep talk, then thrown into sets for days on end would be brutal too.

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  37. As someone new to game, it’s interesting that “natural game” is even something that people teach. It seems like you’re either a “natural” or you’re not.

    I think it may be good to do a good analysis of where you are and your previous success with women – are you naturally really clever and funny but get caught up with what you think you “should” do? Working on not worrying about the canned lines might be the best route. However, that’s really the only spot I could see it working. And how often are people in that situation? If you’re naturally clever and funny why would you have even got caught up with canned lines and artificial game in the first place?

    I think the issue comes when you have guys who either have deep seated issues or just have so little experience that they haven’t internalized anything to say when they’re around women. It’s easy for someone to say “Just act normal”, but if you’ve never been around women it’s not really intuitive what that is. Also, if you have deeper issues, they aren’t just going to go away – “being yourself” isn’t going to work if you’re a total loser mess. I think some of the inner game stuff has been pretty helpful to me – earlier this year I really dove into it, tore myself down psychologically, and then built myself up again. It needed to happen and i’m glad I spent so much time on it.

    One of the reasons I tend to like Roissy is that he isn’t toolish – I don’t agree with most things he says but he’s at least sincere and that puts him way above Tyler Durden and a lot of the other guys who do the whole infomercial style of marketing, at least in my book. Game (and self-help in general) is full of scammy artists which make it very difficult to draw out what the legitimately good advice is.

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  38. Roissy,
    off topic, but thought you’d appreciate todays news story on drudge:
    Paris just outlawed women wearing pants – have to show the gams (and have ready access to the money maker)!

    Viva la liberte’!

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  39. LR:

    “Congratulations…you are handing him a tall, faggy, make-up wearing, metro-pussy like “Mystery” as his hero.”

    Sounds like your Halloween costume…

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  40. Great read, especially while listening to Cypress Hill’s: Looking Through The Eye Of A Pig

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  41. Great post! I’ve been thinking about the seduction community a lot lately and intermittently working on a post for my own blog on the idea that, when you think about it in terms of long term outcomes, the seduction community, in its current state, poorly serves or simply does not serve the needs of most guys that seek it out. A lot of this has to do with exactly what you’ve pointed out here – all the marketing hype, hype, hype. PUA Training’s current email campaign is a perfect example. I’m sure many readers here have gotten those emails. Click on this link and read through some of their garbage sales pitch:

    http://www.getstealthattraction.com/getstealthattraction.php

    I love the part that says how you’ll be leaving the club with 9s and 10s on your arm. What complete and utter nonsense.

    At this point, it’s clear that most of these so-called gurus just want your money. So guys fall for the hype, because they’re desperate, and they shell out all this money for a bootcamp, or a bunch of products, and a lot of times they’re just left in the cold when it’s all over.

    Like


  42. Zunder’s game: You don’t need to be a natural if the the sheep can’t speak.

    Mandy’s game: Anyone who doesn’t want to sleep with Nobama is a raacist. Go Castro!

    Femnistrix’s game: I’m a lying dyke. Here’s a fake picture of me. Worship me, bitches!

    Like


  43. Clarence–

    Others, I’m not naming names, have very bad reps among the PUA’s I know.

    You should name names. There needs to be more information out there from knowledgeable consumers.

    One guy I’ve run into on the web (well followed links from sites I sometimes read to him) who seems like he might be pretty good is sinnsofattraction. Expensive workshops. Lots of free stuff at his web site though.

    Like


  44. BB should be gang raped. And then shot.

    lol BB.

    Like


  45. I’ll consult with the others tomorrow, Doug.

    Understand that I’m perfectly willing to send this information around via email and it’s nothing major anyway – just three guys that all wasted lots of money and time on a certain PUA program. Also the group’s general impressions of certain “known” pua’s. About the only things I’m certain of is that one or two certain well known web based groups are a waste of time and money, and that a few “gurus” seem to have a bad rep as posuers or users. It’s not child molestation or stuff. I think people would benefit from knowing who tends to rip you off, but there’s an undeclared truce among PUA’s and there’s lots of chance that in retaliation some of the organizations I list might decide to downright lie in return and that could get real ugly. So I’ll have to ask and think about it.

    Like


  46. most of the seduction community’s potential customers are reluctant to attend a workshop or seminar because the pseudo-scientific language of Personality Engineering connotes falsity and tedium. the only way to convince ”marginal customers” that they should fork over money is to somehow subvert their fear that rote learning a pick-up method will turn them into a social robot. in short, it’s no longer about discovering ‘what works’ and imparting wisdom. it’s about taking money from suckers.

    without somehow changing how potential customers make their purchasing decisions and/or what motivates those with the skills or reputations needed to instruct things won’t change.

    there’s nothing more foolish than complaining about how reality works and there’s nothing more pathetic than wasting time and energy trying to change the unchangeable. this post disappoints in more ways than one.

    Like


  47. Game (and self-help in general) is full of scammy artists which make it very difficult to draw out what the legitimately good advice is.

    This is so true.

    That’s why I turn to the timeless classics for legitimate, inner game advice.

    Everyone should do themselves a favor and grab a copy of “Meditations” by Marcus Aurelius. Make sure you get the Gregory Hays translation though.

    Like


  48. AHA:

    Any theories as to why this inner game stuff became so popular in the community? Was it just Owen Cook discovering Eckhart Tolle and everyone else just tagged along, lol?

    The story is that Owen had kind of an epiphany after The Game came out that everyone and their mother would know about MM and other structured game methods, so he decided to model naturals.

    I’m not opposed to RSD. I think what they’re doing makes sense for some guys and less so for others.

    Like


  49. Clarence

    Post under a different name then when you do it, and use a bit of squid ink.

    Like


  50. Rake —

    I’m not opposed to RSD. I think what they’re doing makes sense for some guys and less so for others.

    Who does it make sense for? And who less so?

    Like


  51. 2. I always thought teaching natural game was an oxymoron. It’s not natural if you have to teach it, now is it?

    Same here. A “natural” is a guy who has always gamed women naturally, without knowing how. He never developed that fear of women that most guys do, so he’s able to be confident and playful with them.

    For the rest of us, it’s useful to watch guys like that just to see what’s possible, but I wouldn’t expect them to be able to teach it to us. That’d be like trying to learn a language from someone who grew up speaking it and never learned the actual grammar rules. He’ll know how to put a sentence together most of the time, but he won’t be able to tell you why so you can apply to to other situations.

    When naturals say “be yourself,” I think they’re assuming that every guy has a confident, fun, masculine personality at his core, and it’s been suppressed by society’s influence and overlaid with a beta exterior. So if he just lets that out, he’ll be golden. I’m not sure that’s true though; even if every guy had that at one time, it may be so beaten down that he can’t find it anymore. So “be yourself” may truly mean “be frightened and supplicating” to too many guys. They need to learn how men and women work first, so they can tear down some of the fear, then locate and build up whatever masculine core they forgot they had.

    I learned a lot from DeAngelo’s videos circa 2002 or so, enough to multiply my luck with women at least twenty-fold, even though I didn’t go at it real seriously. I thought his teaching was solid, and came from a scientific attitude of researching and seeing what works. I know what people mean about the hucksterish nature of the way these guys sell things, though; sometimes they come off as the worst of internet marketers.

    Like


  52. I only read the first part, but natural game works best for those not squandering their real goods. I did OK in my 20s attracting women. I looked like one particular brat pack body double. However I had no idea women were falling all over for me. Only when looking back do I get this. I was clueless. I remember this old college friend I had. This women was doing some stretches in his apartment. I just thought she wanted a little exercise. He told me it was for him and they had slept together later than evening. Then I recalled a girl had done the same exact thing for me. She even did my dishes. That’s just being blind. So natural game to me is selling yourself and knowing who is buying. I certainly could have met more people.

    Like


  53. Sorry reverse that. natural game works best for those squandering their real goods.

    Like


  54. “Modeone : let the women know what you re really thinking”

    has been one of the best books on pua that I bought and better than the mystery method. it’s about how to gain confidence and the traits of confident naturals.

    I highly recommend it, it is very real and straightfoward in the same vain as The mack withing by Tariq Nasheed.

    Natural game means learning what women are attracted to naturally. i.e. learning from male archetypes and traits that have always been attractive to women

    the opposite of natural game means lying and deceiving to sleep with a women, i.e. putting up an act, a facade, pretending…which works in the short run but on the long run the guy’s game crumbles because it does not have solid basis. (kind of like waiting a bar line only to come inside and find the place to be empty. it’s not wrong to influence people, we all want to have choice but we can do so without being dishonest or relying heavily on lying)

    So the guys out there teaching others to just be themselves are just stupid and using those people.

    a real natural would teach you how to become one. Roissy’s blog is a great introduction (eg: qualifying, not taking shit from women etc…)

    a natural is a guy who has a tight game (both inner and outer), an “unnatural” is a guy who is faking the funk but deep inside he is an insecure and desperate wussy.

    would you call a guy whose sole method of getting laid is lying? can a pathological liar be a pua? his game will fall flat on his face when all his gimmicks are found out.

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  55. Greed and hubris is killing it before it has had a chance to fully mature, accelerated by modern social networks

    yeah, that greed and hubris stuff . it always explains everything. I think google is gonna hire Mystery and then buy the publishing rights of Roissy´s book

    Like


  56. Who does it make sense for? And who less so?

    There are lots of guys out there who have memorized all sorts of routines and tactics, or who may just naturally know what they are supposed to do, but who just have a lot of trouble loosening up and being in the moment. These can benefit a lot from more natural or inner game type material.

    Like


  57. However I had no idea women were falling all over for me. Only when looking back do I get this.

    Being able to recognize IOIs is, in my opinion, the most important aspect of game. For two reasons:

    1. By repeating the behaviours that get you those IOIs and avoiding behaviours that lose you IOIs, you can slowly figure out what works and what doesn’t on your own, even without community material.
    2. It gives you a license to move the interaction along (physically escalate, get a phone number, ask her out etc.).

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  58. Isnt “Game” just the set of behaviors that seek to mimic the successful mating behaviors of Naturals? by default, then there is no such thing as Natural game except that which actual Naturals exhibit.

    The closest you can come to it is just the general self-improvement, confidence building stuff such as getting in shape, learning social skills and minimizing introversion. If you do maximize/optimize yourself physically and aesthetically and “find yourself” mentally such that people are attracted to you, then yeah sure that transformation can then lead to what I think is being called Natural game in this forum.

    Like


  59. What also helps people loosen up socially: alcohol.

    Other illicit drugs as well, but alcohol can make you a superstar.

    Like


  60. Random:

    I think the issue comes when you have guys who either have deep seated issues or just have so little experience that they haven’t internalized anything to say when they’re around women. It’s easy for someone to say “Just act normal”, but if you’ve never been around women it’s not really intuitive what that is. Also, if you have deeper issues, they aren’t just going to go away – “being yourself” isn’t going to work if you’re a total loser mess. I think some of the inner game stuff has been pretty helpful to me – earlier this year I really dove into it, tore myself down psychologically, and then built myself up again. It needed to happen and i’m glad I spent so much time on it.

    Yes, yes, yes! Very good points here. How can you be natural around women if you don’t have any experience? You don’t just flip a switch and become confident.

    Core self-development is key for many, if not most, guys. To be clear, I do think there are some guys out there that come into this with fairly decent social skills to begin with and for those guys, yeah, the learning curve isn’t that steep. But, for quite a few of us, it just doesn’t work that way. We have to work at it and build our confidence up step by step.

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  61. The thing about inner and outer game is that they feed off of each other. Knowing what to do when is a huge confidence booster and in turn being confident makes it easier to execute the correct move.

    Ultimately though, what builds, self confidence is positive interactions with women. That’s what routines offer, they give an inexperienced guy some bit of value to present to a girl so that she won’t blow him off immediately.

    Like


  62. Doug1 on RSD:

    Who does it make sense for? And who less so?

    It really depends what your sticking points are. For me, I’m leaning towards taking an RSD bootcamp because I’m stuck in my head, I’m pedestallizing (is that a word?) girls too much, not being agressive, and not escalating. For me, where I am, what RSD does seems to make some sense. I don’t think that’s the case for everyone.

    Like


  63. My friend almost made me die laughing. He told me this attractive girl asked for an escort to walk her home to her dorm. He said he started looking around and saying. “Sure, I think someone around here lives near you, and they can walk you home”. Someone in disbelief walked up to him and explained it to him. Dumb and dumber is real.

    Like


  64. Natural game means learning what women are attracted to naturally. i.e. learning from male archetypes and traits that have always been attractive to women

    Not the way I’ve always heard the term used. If we say a guy is a natural at hitting a baseball, that means he just picked up a bat and started hitting the ball well without any training; he seems to have a natural talent at it that he was born with. So a natural with women is a guy who has always done well with them, and it just comes naturally to him. If you have to learn how to do it, you’re not a natural.

    It doesn’t have anything to do with what women are attracted to, because that would mean that all successful game is natural game.

    Like


  65. I agree with Roissy that one must learn the science of seduction, and that the Mystery Method is the best explanation of the technical side. I appreciated reading the above knowledgeable comments. I am only an interested beginner in Game, so discount my thoughts accordingly.

    I dislike the admittedly accurate term “artificial” game for its inner game impact, because it carries a connotation of inauthenticity. I would call it “technical” game instead.

    My ideal situation would be to naturally behave in the technically optimal way – e.g. an authentic ability to neg 10s. I believe I should grow towards that ideal both by artificial forcing of correct behaviors (e.g. grinding approaches) and by inner game tuning.

    I’ve downloaded the pdf notes for Tyler’s Blueprint, and they really impressed me. To me, Mystery Method and the Blueprint notes are the twin pinnacles of Game. This post seems to argue it’s Mystery Method technical style uber alles.

    Due to my conservative morality, I don’t get an inner game boost from “just fucking ten other girls,” and I’m not interested in going completely down the roads of either biomechanical or experiential morality. So maybe I find inner game more useful for circumstantial reasons.

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  66. Let’s name names. Am I right in thinking that a lot of this “natural game” stuff was started by RSD as a counter to the Mystery Method?

    I haven’t taken their bootcamps, but I have hung out on their forums and to be honest I have learnt a fair amount from some of the postings on their boads. But, their bootcamp seems to mainly consist of “Open, open, open” and “Close, close, close”. It is really all about pushing the guys to take action. Now, while this approach might work for the 20 something white guy with decent looks and no game, it is not going to work for those that fall out of that demographich.

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  67. i’ve never taken a bootcamp and am not likely to ever do so. if it’s true that the quality of instruction (and theory imparted) has begun to deteroriate or vary widely, though, there’s a quick and dirty (heh) solution: a customer feedback site, similar to the web reviews on almost any commercial site. someone could throw up a page caleld “pickupreviews.com” or something like that, and give current and former customers a place to post their views. it may not be the best measure of the quality of instruction or theory, but would be the easiest and most reliable one.

    this wouldn’t change the overall arc that game seems to be following based on roissy’s potted history of revolutions gone bad. but it would be a way for people to get a bettter handle on who’s who during the dissolution/infighting phases.

    Like


  68. [blockquote]a customer feedback site, similar to the web reviews on almost any commercial site. someone could throw up a page caleld “pickupreviews.com” or something like that, and give current and former customers a place to post their views. it may not be the best measure of the quality of instruction or theory, but would be the easiest and most reliable one. [/blockquote]

    I don’t think so. It is very, very easy to game user submitted review sites.

    Like


  69. Maurice – that isn’t a bad idea. Right now, there are a lot of reviews out there, but they’re scattered on different forums, some company sponsored and others sponsored by individual Lairs or groups of people. FastSeduction.com actually should serve that purpose, but it’s really lost a lot of relevance in the last few years and the site itself is a mess.

    Like


  70. on November 17, 2009 at 6:15 pm Wendy Schwartz

    OMG. ROF LMAO……

    You ARE aware that “Tyler Durden” is an imaginary character played by Brad Pitt, right?

    [editor: this was not a useful comment. try again.]

    Like


  71. @adrian- true, but smart readers are usually adept at sniffing them out. i can always tell the shills from the real reviewers on amazon.com. i didn’t claim it was a perfect idea, much as all the info out there in the sea of Web 2.0 UGC-land is far from perfect. but it’d probably be worthwhile.

    Like


  72. Due to my conservative morality, I don’t get an inner game boost from “just fucking ten other girls,” and I’m not interested in going completely down the roads of either biomechanical or experiential morality.

    I wasn’t either; I was looking for one great woman. But that’s still a very useful paradigm if you turn it into “Go Meet Ten Other Women.” The point is to train yourself away from the usual pattern of, “Meet pretty girl, fall for pretty girl, lavish affection on her until she flees, cry in beer.” If you force yourself to meet and talk to multiple women, even if it’s just online, it helps you avoid that tunnel vision.

    Also, I found that when I was spending time with more women than just one that I was obsessed with, I was much more likely to notice their flaws, and I started to have a more realistic and healthier view of women in general.

    Like


  73. I think, in rereading Knack’s guest post, that the key would be finding ugly puaers.
    With some of my natural friends, there’s nothing to learn…step one walk in bar. step two be approached. step three disappear.
    I’m not in the market for a seminar but after reading Style’s book, it seems that the market, such as it were, has been flooded and worthless. Style got the full deal, including a makeover and personal observation and coaching. The, “here’s a pickup line and go” lessons offered by Durden sound awful. To make it worse, this natural game thing is a waste of time for less betas and below.

    Like


  74. on November 17, 2009 at 6:50 pm Wendy Schwartz

    UMMM yes that’s what makes it funnier. How can you NOT find it pathetic AND funny that a group of men idolize a guy who PRETENDS to be a character played by Brad Pitt????

    and ANOTHER guy who wears make-up, Pam Anderson’s Hats, is a Criss Angel look alike but without any talent, and is famous for yet another bad reality show (obviously I’m referring to Mystery)……

    Let’s compare that to people who really think they are a character in Lord of the Rings or Dungeons & Dragons…..

    [editor: still not useful…]

    Like


  75. I’ve always struggled with whether I have natural game, some facets of it, or I’ve been just plain lucky. Since the age of 13, I’ve been able to get pussy. Not at a consistent rate, mind you, but at a higher rate than most guys I know.

    At 13 I would have a 14 year old neighbor come to my house basically every day and tease me. We’d play this game of her teasing me and me forcing myself on her ’til she gave in and we fucked. This would happen every time she came over. I guess it was role play for me to basically rape her (cue Biting Beaver).

    Married women are drawn to me and I have no idea why. There isn’t, to my knowledge, anything particular about me that would scream something to married women. I don’t offer anything they can’t get at home (except a different dick and some good oral).

    If I am a natural then any attempt at me learning why I am fucks things up for me. I found mASF around ’99 to learn why things were “clicking” for me. And once I started learning some of the reasons I would crash and burn with girls I’d talk to. Kind of like thinking too much about a jump shot or golf swing to the point where you mess up the mechanics.

    So, Roissy (or others), is it luck for me or some natural game?

    Like


  76. on November 17, 2009 at 6:54 pm Wendy Schwartz

    How do you ask a girl if she wants to smoke weed? What is the correct terminology these days even?? MJ? MaryJane? Pot? Joint? 420??

    First, if you have to ask that question….you probably just shouldn’t ask at all…but…

    That’s an easy fix. Say “Do you smoke?” because ONLY a pothead will answer “Smoke what?”.

    That’s how you know.

    Like


  77. on November 17, 2009 at 6:55 pm Wendy Schwartz

    “Wendy Schwartz is the type of chick you’d fuck and then get grossed out by the fact that she’s naked in your bed.”

    Ugh, don’t worry I wouldn’t hang around that long. I employ the “leave your boots on, bitch” theory.

    [The good news never stops!]

    Like


  78. 1. To some extent Tyler Durden and RSD are responsible for the fetishizing of natural game, but that is largely marketing; them trying to separate themselves from other pick up companies like Venusian Arts and Lovesystems. After all, they still sell Foundations, which is completely MM based.

    2. After Mystery, Tyler Durden is the most important theorist of game. I haven’t read his Blueprint (the DVDs were a bit bloated), but The Tyler Digest is essential reading.

    3. Whatever else you many think about him, Tyler has kept trying new things and has done a lot more to refine the principles of game over the past few years than Mystery. I can understand staying true to the fundamentals, even resting on one’s laurels a bit, but Mystery doesn’t seem to have done any innovating at all since the VAH came out. Sure, the main principals had been discovered, but no one can tell me that there were no refinements to be made to Mystery’s original work.

    4. RSD has the best DVDs out there. Foundations and Transformations are essential. The Jeffy Show and Flawless Natural are excellent, even if the latter does teach quite a few routines. Blueprint is a bit bloated, but still has some excellent bits in it.

    5. Tyler is a bit of a sociopath (I have information from someone who was there that the portrait of him in The Game isn’t far off) and the guys he has surrounded himself with have a rep for being kind of crazy. The Tyler Digest, however great it is, is still the work of someone I’m not sure I want to get to know in person.

    Like


  79. Also, I found that when I was spending time with more women than just one that I was obsessed with, I was much more likely to notice their flaws, and I started to have a more realistic and healthier view of women in general.

    This.

    I can’t agree more with this point. Over the last few years, growing in life and career with the help of solid game, healthy workout and diet routines, and reading as much about anything and everything has turned this very ugly dude into a total player.

    Men need to realize, success breeds confidence. A positive feedback loop often starts under extreme duress.

    Like


  80. on November 17, 2009 at 7:07 pm Wendy Schwartz

    [editor: still not useful…]

    Doesn’t make it any less true, now does it?

    [editor: the sun rising in the east is true, but mentioning it over and over in the comments wouldn’t be useful. back to the drawing board with you.]

    Like


  81. on November 17, 2009 at 6:21 pm gunslingergregi

    ”””””’When naturals say “be yourself,” I think they’re assuming that every guy has a confident, fun, masculine personality at his core, and it’s been suppressed by society’s influence and overlaid with a beta exterior. So if he just lets that out, he’ll be golden. I’m not sure that’s true though; even if every guy had that at one time, it may be so beaten down that he can’t find it anymore. So “be yourself” may truly mean “be frightened and supplicating” to too many guys. They need to learn how men and women work first, so they can tear down some of the fear, then locate and build up whatever masculine core they forgot they had.”””””””””””””””

    Suggestions for rebuilding core. Go shoot something. Get in some fights. Kill a deer.

    Like


  82. You ARE aware that “Tyler Durden” is an imaginary character played by Brad Pitt, right?

    LR is the type of chick you’d fuck and then get grossed out by the fact that she’s naked in your bed.

    Like


  83. on November 17, 2009 at 6:26 pm gunslingergregi

    ””””””””lurker
    What also helps people loosen up socially: alcohol.

    Other illicit drugs as well, but alcohol can make you a superstar.
    ””””””””””

    Drug game hardly ever talked about but always underated.

    Like


  84. @ LR

    There is a well-known figure in the PUA community who adopted Brad Pitt’s character as his pseudonym.

    Arrogance+ignorance=?

    Like


  85. Anybody have any insight into the state of game theory before Mystery. David DeAngelo seems to have come up with cocky funny before Mystery, but the other pre-Mystery stuff seems to me to be almost pure bullshit, e.g. Gunwitch and Ross Jeffries.

    Like


  86. Anybody have any insight into the state of game theory before Mystery. David DeAngelo seems to have come up with cocky funny before Mystery, but the other pre-Mystery stuff seems to me to be almost pure bullshit, e.g. Gunwitch and Ross Jeffries.

    Giacomo Girolamo Casanova de Seingalt?

    Like


  87. gunslingergregi

    “Drug game hardly ever talked about but always underated.”

    I shouldn’t have to tell anyone that I wrote the definitive piece on Drug Game.

    Doing Drugs and Picking Up Girls : http://www.thegmanifesto.com/2009/09/doing-drugs-and-picking-up-girls.html

    – MPM

    Like


  88. on November 17, 2009 at 6:38 pm gunslingergregi

    Yea when 60 percent or more of chicks doing drugs and you don’t have any he he he

    Like


  89. on November 17, 2009 at 6:39 pm gunslingergregi

    Then of course you got to game them so they share.

    Like


  90. I’ve been ‘in the game’ for about 4 years now.

    I used a LOT of Mystery Method and it fucked me up pretty badly.

    I turned into a routine-spitting automaton, cynically mouthing the same words over and over and getting the same predictable reactions. It was very boring and I felt like my soul was slowly withering away with each 90-degree body angle false time constrained opinion opener I delivered.

    I then discovered RSD and have read/watched all their collected works. But I’ve taken it a step further. I meditate an hour every day and am in touch with my ‘shadow’ (if you haven’t done any shadow work… do it. It’s essential for staying in the present moment). I also follow many of the guidelines presented by David Deida in “Way of the Superior Man.”

    When I now walk into a room I can focus very deeply on the sexual aggression inside my body and women flock to me. It’s a subtle thing, but immensely powerful. This is what people mean when they talk about inner game. I’m probably a 6 or a 7 on the looks scale, but I have presence. Presence makes pussies wet without saying a word. And you can too.

    Like


  91. on November 17, 2009 at 6:44 pm gunslingergregi

    Then of course the other overlooked aspect of game is having money. Take 30 dollar stacks of ones and throw them at regular chicks dancing up on a bar in a club. Then walk away sit down and laugh as they pick up every last dollar off of the floor. This also helps with building that inner game.

    Like


  92. on November 17, 2009 at 6:46 pm gunslingergregi

    Guarranteed other people will be laughing with you because you just did some semi original shit and you become an auto cool guy.

    Like


  93. How do you ask a girl if she wants to smoke weed? What is the correct terminology these days even?? MJ? MaryJane? Pot? Joint? 420??

    Like


  94. on November 17, 2009 at 6:49 pm gunslingergregi

    Oh and the boyfriends will be standing there with that is my girl seriously picking ones off the floor look on there faces.

    Like


  95. on November 17, 2009 at 6:51 pm gunslingergregi

    Just spark up why ask.

    Then get you some fucking percocet white chicks eat that shit up.

    Like


  96. on November 17, 2009 at 6:55 pm personal trainer

    Author: Adrian
    Comment:

    How do you ask a girl if she wants to smoke weed? What is the correct terminology these days even?? MJ? MaryJane? Pot? Joint? 420??

    DO U WANT TO SMOKE?

    Like


  97. on November 17, 2009 at 6:58 pm gunslingergregi

    Really the best game I see is getting an alpha female with lots of contacts and all you do is sit in the house while she goes to work and chicks walk up to door and as an excuse to be there ask you for a cigerette. Or another chick will be talking about how she knows you from somewhere or whatever or that she drove somewhere with you 15 years ago.

    Like


  98. on November 17, 2009 at 6:59 pm gunslingergregi

    Congrats on transformation Dat_Truth_Hurts

    Like


  99. on November 17, 2009 at 7:02 pm gunslingergregi

    I am going to build some serious inner game in college boy chase it down style next time I see one on side of road staring at oncoming trafic.

    Like


  100. Roissy, I have a feeling (which may be wrong) that your first taste of seduction material was the Mystery Method, and because this was such a paradigm shift it resulted in MM now holding in your mind an exaggerated sense of its actual value.

    I feel the same about David D’s “Double your Dating”. I think it’s utterly fucking brilliant – skewering its value by how much it copped me on.

    And you call David D a nerd…. Jesus. Mystery is an uber nerd and must have been socially fucking retarded before getting his shit together, because anyone that tall and that good looking who was “lonely” and a virgin in his 20s … for fuck’s sake…no more needs to be said.

    Like


  101. Anybody have any insight into the state of game theory before Mystery. David DeAngelo seems to have come up with cocky funny before Mystery, but the other pre-Mystery stuff seems to me to be almost pure bullshit, e.g. Gunwitch and Ross Jeffries.

    mystery and ross exploded onto the scene at around the same time (~1997 if i recall), and by exploded i mean they were peppering internet newsgroup boards with their eureka moments and grand schemata. ross may have technically been out of the gate first, but mystery wasn’t far behind. VAH (in its original incarnation as mystery method) wasn’t released by mystery until a few years after he had appeared on the net scene.

    those were heady days. i remember reading that stuff and sucking it up like a line of coke off a hooker’s ass. some of their observations confirmed my experiences with women, and some of it was a surprise.

    i didn’t follow gunwitch too closely. i’m suspicious of highly sexual lone wolf direct game. ross’ nlp has a lot of theory behind it, but it always struck me as too abstruse to effectively put into practice, and somewhat cheesy as well. plus i have no idea if nlp has any proven value in the field, other than that the few times i ran the discovery channel routine i did get positive reactions.

    i thought deangelo came well after mystery and ross, but i could be wrong. deangelo’s c&f interview series is some of the best bang for your pickup buck out there. i can’t tell you how many times i’ve used his “hey if you’re gonna flake tell me now” line to great success.

    Like


  102. because anyone that tall and that good looking who was “lonely” and a virgin in his 20s … for fuck’s sake…no more needs to be said.

    good point. i met mystery at a free seminar he gave in VA once. i could tell he was a former nerd. the nerd never fully leaves a nerd; it’s always just under the surface. but he was also sharp, energetic, and knew how to hold eye contact, so his latent nerdiness was sufficiently smothered under layers of alpha.

    nonetheless, DYD and mystery are trailblazers. i’ll read tyler’s stuff for comparision.

    Like


  103. America is amazing. I couldn’t imagine that game is almost a new literary genre.

    What is even more amazing is that any literary genre creates scope for nerds to become nerds by overstudying it. America is now on the verge of creating the pick-up nerd , or PUN

    [editor: heh. giving the nerd just enough flowchart symbols to hang himself.]

    Like


  104. side note, that site, the spearhead, is not a bitter-loser blog, as it is the norm wrt feminism and white nationalism.

    there is a streak of bitter-loserness overthere, but the dominant trait there is the PUN, indeed. a characther that, at least for me, represents PUNism at its best, is that Fifth Horseman

    Like


  105. You for got R Don Steele for the early pioneers of the late 90’s.

    Like


  106. testing 123

    Like


  107. I don’t know the chronology of what went on on the different forums, but this is the chronology of the major pick up books.

    1970 – Eric Weber – How to Pick Up Girls
    1987 – R. Don Steele – How to Date Young Women (1st edition)
    1992 – Ross Jeffries – How to Get the Women You Desire into Bed
    2001 – David DeAngleo – Double Your Dating
    2005 – Neil Strauss – The Game
    2005 – Mystery – The Venusian Arts Handbook ebook (published to capitalize on The Game coming out)
    2005 – Mystery – The Mystery Method regular book

    Like


  108. on November 17, 2009 at 7:42 pm almost 40 year old virgin

    Bah, screw game and indulging these selfimportant bitches by fucking them.
    Behold the Penistron: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Xtcqvm0AHM&feature=player_embedded

    😀

    The eve of true perfect 10 fembots is near.

    Like


  109. R Don Steele? LOL. That guy is a pathetic joke. He is NOT a pua. He styles himself as some sort of guru for older men dating younger women, except he has mostly lame, useless advice.

    He uses his marriage as a shining example of his own advice. Except, his wife while being a couple of decades younger than him is a fat filipina woman. So here is an old white guy, who claims to be an expert on dating younger women, but he had to go to the Phillipines and get himself a mail order bride.

    Yeah, some PUA or dating guru. LOL.

    Like


  110. I think Roissy is really misunderstanding things here – though well intentioned – and Im gonna defend the *natural* approach.

    What does being yourself and being natural really mean?

    I think Roissy and the people who counsel you to be natural have very different understandings of what the term means, and without clearing that up, we cant have a fruitful discussion.

    For Roissy, being yourself or being natural simply means to obey whatever impulse you are feeling at a given moment. However if youre feeling the impulse to act submissively, for instance, then Roissy is quite right that *being yourself* would be disastrous.

    I think thats what Roissy has in mind when he decries acting like yourself – the idea that you should simply act on whatever youre feeling – but because of a confusion of terms it comes off as Roissy telling us we must act in a way thats fake and inauthentic, which many self-respecting men rightly recoil at. There is just something un-masculine about *faking* yourself.

    But *being yourself* doesnt necessarily mean obeying whatever imulse you have at any given moment – you can feel one way and recognize the importance and necessity of acting differently without being fake or inauthentic. For instance, say, in battle, you might feel scared but bring yourself to not run away – are you not *being yourself*? Are you being fake and inauthentic by refusing to run away? Clearly not, and I think its important to realize why.

    The thing is, at any given moment we are assailed by conflicting impulses, and in addition to our impulses we have ideas on what right conduct is.

    Clearly, we have to choose amongst our impulses using our minds and sometimes, we have to override our impulses purely based on what our mind tells us is right.

    But the judgement of our intellect is no less an expression of ourselves that the emotions we feel – so if our minds decide a certain action is right, we are in fact *being ourselves* by acting on it, even if we might not feel it.

    What the advocates of *being yourself* really mean, and what Roissy doest understand, is not that you should simply act out whatever you feel at any given moment, even if you are feeling weak, but that you should refuse to make the pleasure or approval of the woman your primary consideration when choosing how to act. In other words, act in a way that you consider appropriate and right – that YOU *yourself* have decided is correct regardless of how you FEEL – EVEN IF it displeases the woman.

    Of course Roissy is right – and the advocates of *be yourself* agree – that you should NOT wait till you *feel* right before you act in the appropriate way towards women, but that acting according to your principles will over time generate the right emotions.

    This is sound psychology which has its roots in Aristotle, but the term *fake it till you make it* is highly misleading, because you are not faking anything you are simply acting according to your judgement and overriding your emotions, and obnoxious and repellent to many men who believe that being inauthentic is deeply un-masculine and precisely what you dont want to be in relation to women.

    *Being yourself* doesnt mean you should obey every impulse you feel even if its towards submissiveness – it means you should act in your idea of how it is appropriate to behave towards women. Its an example of mind overriding or at least choosing between emotions.

    Now the reason we de-emphasize specific routines and tactics is because most guys dont need them – once a guy accepts that the correct way to approach women is with the mentality that *I am of at least equal or greater value than her and all my actions towards her should reflect my status as at the minimum her equal and probably her superior* then you could simply refer any possible action towards that principle.

    Is this the action of someone who has equal value towards the other person – in this case a woman? Say, would someone *supplicate* to an equal or to an inferior? Clearly not. Would someone *take shit* from someone who is an equal or an inferior? Clearly not.

    All you really have to do in interactions with women is to think *how would someone who has equal or higher value than this woman act towards her*? Memorizing routines and tactics are unncessary and possibly harmful -harmful because they directly undermine the idea that it is NOT your task, as the higher value person, to entertain and please this person. If anything, it is HER task to entertain YOU.

    Magic tricks and similar nonsense directly undermine the mindset you want to cultivate and the image you want to project, and to the extent that they *work* they work because they give you an opportunity to demonstrate personality traits like confidence and high value. But anyone with good social skills can do that in normal conversation without the added risk of coming off as someone trying hard to entertain the woman – and being silly – that doing magic tricks or routines entails.

    Thats why instead of focusing on routines, tricks, and tactics, we focus on the right principle – high self-value – you should refer every possible behavior to. At best, routines and tactics simply give you an opportunity to demonstrate your high value, but a well socialized person doesnt need that. At. worst, they contradict and undermine your ability to project high value

    Its a mistake to think that Game evolved through *trial and error* and completely randomly – Game evolved as an explorations of which behaviors and actions demonstrate value and are appropriate to someone who holds himself in high regard.

    *Naturals* are simply people born with – or educated into from early childhood – a strong sense of their own self-worth vis-a-vis women. All their actions flows from that basic core principle. They dont need routines and tactics. Once you internalize that principle and learn to bring it out in your behvior – by over a LONG period of time refering every possible action of yours around women to the *value principle* until it becomes a mental habit and second nature – you dont need routines and principles either.

    [editor: ok, but how would you get a man to focus on his high self value, or even to believe he has high self value? give a concrete example of how this is done.]

    Like


  111. Gunny is right. Just go kill something. Get used to having real blood on your hands. Get used to gutting an animal that is not quite technically dead.
    And remember the words of Titus Pullo in the HBO series “Rome”.

    [editor: don’t leave us hanging!]

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  112. A Centurian,”What do women really want?”
    T. Pullo,”Bring them the still beating heart of an enemy. It makes them wet as October. They say it doesn’t but it does.”

    [editor: pure poetry… of flesh.]

    Like


  113. Well I see what LadyRaine’s “game” is.

    Come on here and play the villianess by beating up on all the major pua’s , reducing them to their most ridiculous caricatured extremes.

    This is an important thread, and while I suspect LR believes only half of what she’s posted, her derailing shows she needs a good hard spanking and some cornertime.

    Bad LadyRaine, Bad!

    Like


  114. I don’t think Gunwitch is utter bullshit. There may be some weakness in the actual pickup sequence, but there’s a lot of fundamentally sound advice there as far as biological bases of success with women.

    Sociobiology is only barely touched on by Mystery and others similar to him in approach. He obviously covers it in his “S&R” rap, but not so much as far as personal transformation.

    I find I’m a very different person when drenched with endorphins after playing sports for over an hour than not. More relaxed, confident, funny and projecting a better aura.

    Learning the fundamentals of MM is a must, but sending out guys with poor biological bases for success is making things more difficult than has to be.

    In short, men do things that biologically reinforce manhood (something which constant sitting at a PC or typing on a QWERTY cellphone keyboard doesn’t.)

    So basically, yeah, what I see as the core recommendation of Gunwitch’s Method (doing shit which makes you manly) is not to be ignored.

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  115. Roissy,

    When I read the Mystery Method, I thought it so good, that I had a hard time believing that Mystery didn’t get help with it from a psychiatrist or psychologist in writing it. It breaks down the steps from initial attraction throughout the seduction process all the way to last minute resistance and getting her to forget about feeling guilty or slutty for sleeping with a near stranger. It labels each of these steps for you so you can recognize where you are at in the seduction process with her and what psychological paces to put her through to prime her compliance and make her want to be fucked and even to want to seduce you.

    Its a insightful book no matter how someone feels about it ethically or morally. Its socio-sexual-psychology of the modern female.

    I wish some of Game’s detractors would give that book a real read instead of coming in her and making fun of it. A lot of so-called “game” out there probably is bullshit, but the Mystery Method was very impressive to me.

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  116. Who is the “RSD” everyone is referring to?

    [editor: real social dynamics]

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  117. on November 17, 2009 at 9:34 pm theobsidianfiles

    Wendy Schwartz,
    If I may, I would just like to ask-and in all sincerity-

    Exactly what is it that you object to here? Please, I’m NOT talking about personalities here-not CR, not Mystery, not Ross Jeffries, not Tyler Durden-I am asking you, what is it you object to wrt Game/Seduction itself? It occurs to me that for most critics, once you get past the personality issues, that they just seem to have a visceral reaction to the idea of Men learning to get Women to have sex with them. If indeed this is your view, fair enough-but I find it to be awfully one-sided. Please allow me to explain why.

    Women can and have had all manner of things they can do to win the object of their affection over to their side-and in our time, a Woman seeking a fulfilling sexual life is not only seen as a good thing, *it’s seen as sacrosanct*. In other words, it is near blasphemous for anyone, especially any Man, to question a Woman’s sexual decisions-if she chooses to sleep with umpteen Men, that’s her choice! Yet, for a Man to learn the tools he needs to do the same-assuming that is indeed his goal-we have an instincual gut level reaction to that.

    As you might guess, I have my own reasons as to why I think that is. But again, I want to know from you, what exactly do you take issue with here.

    Looking forward to a productive and fruitful discussion with ya.

    Holla back

    The Obsidian

    Like


  118. It is not reasonable to hand a saxophone to an average man, put him on stage, and expect him to improvise a sublime performance.

    One would encounter two problems.

    1) He would suck
    2) He would be nervous

    To solve 1)

    Make the man practise the basic lessons first. Even if it means repeating old melodies over and over till he can play them to perfection.

    This can be monotonous and require committing a high level of cognitive resources to the task.

    Once mastered the man can expect a consistent level of applause, particularly amongst audiences with a naive palate. The man’s sax playing prowess is augmented in the eyes of an audience member who has never heard this masterpiece performed before. On the flip side an audience with a more sophisticated taste may chide the man for playing such an old uninspired tune, and the man always runs the risk of running of songs to play.

    To solve 2)

    Make the man more confident with being himself, more in the moment, and less focused on the outcome of the performance.

    This can be fun, the man learns to perform for his own amusement not that of the audience. He learns not to care about their approval and play what he wants.

    Like a million monkeys, typing away on a million typewriters, the some of the man’s performances will garner some applause perhaps even a standing ovation. Furthermore, assuming he is smarter than a monkey, some improvements in his technique are bound to arise from hours of practise no matter how unfocused it is.

    But nevertheless the applause would be sporadic and inconsistent at best

    Both solutions are both interrelated and important.

    If the man’s goal is getting applause from the audience then the man should definitely focus on solving problem 1.

    If the man’s goal is enjoying himself as he plays the Sax then the man should focus on solving problem 2.

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  119. Long live artificial men.

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  120. 4lpha,

    The only problem with your analogy is that we weren’t born to play the saxophone. But, we were born to have sex. This is part of our core and as such should come naturally.

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  121. On a more down to earth note, I hate the RSD inspired idiots in my city doing asinine ‘stunt’ pickup particularly during the day time.

    (e.g. hitting on women in front of their significant others, taking turns opening the same woman after one gets rejected)

    Seriously this kind of shit isn’t going to get you laid.

    Confidence is necessary not sufficient.

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  122. we weren’t born to play the saxophone. But, we were born to have sex.

    It’s not the having-sex part that’s difficult for novices. It’s the part where you have to convince a girl to want to do it with you.

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  123. Since it’s a pain to sit through the dvds, here’s the link for Tyler’s Blueprint notes:

    http://rapidshare.com/files/308567728/blueprint_notes.rar

    I recommend reading the pdf first, then the text file to flesh out the concepts. Read together they give a pretty complete understanding of Tyler’s mindset.

    For the pdf, some guy on a forum watched the blueprint and posted his notes. each page was a separate pdf. I combined them. The original link is here, with screenshots: http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=162601

    For the text file, I assembled it from a post someone made on usenet in 7 parts. No guarantees on it being in the right order, but it shouldn’t matter much, given the rough nature of the version. http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=139829

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  124. Roissy seems to be misconstruing what “natural” game truly is. Most of these purveyors of it have a completely wrong idea as well, but it can be very powerful.

    In my view, so-called “artificial” game refers to specific techniques. “Natural” game refers more to body language, confidence, and all that good stuff. The crux of natural game is that it’s more important to present yourself in a good way, and not to rely on techniques to game a woman.

    I think both are useful, but simply following what a guy with Brad Pitt looks does to get women isn’t going to work.

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  125. I personally can’t imagine going to a workshop for anything. I can tell you the point where “game” jumped the shark: when Mystery and friends went on TV. Now a days, when I think of gamesters, I think of clowns like this:

    http://www.tube8.com/amateur/both-my-baby-mamas/186989/

    (no this isn’t work safe, or sanity safe, unless you want to watch grotesque shuggoths have sex).

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  126. @ AHA: If you want to learn to use game instead of relying on your natural good looks than start aiming high. Thats what game boils down: Men aiming for pussy higher than they can currently get.

    Every nerdling loser can get laid….but the real question is whether what he fucks can be considered a woman (fat, ugly, maybe a hare-lip etc. But still has tits and pussy. Is it is a woman?)

    Game is for the guy who doesn’t want to fuck what his current looks, charm etc alone can get him. For David Alexander using game to get laid by even a 3 is way above being forcibly celibate.

    For the average guy who can pull 5s, game can help him pull 7 and 8s.

    For a guy like yourself who is naturally good looking and pulls well, 7 and 8s I’m assuming, have you tried hitting 9s and 10s. Unless your looks are allowing you to bang models and movie stars, or at least to consistently take home the hottest girl in the club, then you can benefit from game.

    So your mission is to learn game and use it to pick up the hottest chicks, the ones who are not impressed by your looks because they’re getting nailed by men with Arnold’s build and Connery’s charm every night.

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  127. That’s an easy fix. Say “Do you smoke?” because ONLY a pothead will answer “Smoke what?”.

    That’s how you know.

    Absolutely the right way. On her third try, she proved capable of providing a useful comment.

    [editor:true. good JORB LR. credit where credit is due.]

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  128. theobsidianfiles–

    And if memory serves, I’ve answered this several times to you and you never remember it.

    Everything taught in “seduction techniques” is simply an opinion-laden, watered-down version of actual Psychology, Profiling, Cold Reading, and Behavioral Conditioning.

    All of which are very good, very academic subjects to study (without having to put in all the actors, celebrities, bloggers, and “bitter men’s opinions”).

    I’d rather someone put his head into something like THAT….something that is actually a skill, knowledge, education……

    Not seminars, books, reality shows, celebrities, bloggers, and “imaginary characters” that essentially just turn men into more hateful a-holes eventually.

    The results would be just as effective. Without any of the additives, so to speak. That’s why I don’t like all the time wasting of “learning something” that has been taught by many famous people for a LOOOONG time now.

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  129. Well written Jon

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  130. basically….everything about PUA and learning game is just a “lazy-man’s” way of avoiding learning a REAL Social Science.

    It’s like a Miracle Diet Pill. It causes more problems than it fixes and doesn’t really work to start with….

    but people will sure run to it hopefully to avoid being disciplined, motivated, or anything but lazy…..

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  131. Can’t say I’m a huge Tyler Durden fan.

    I haven’t read any of his stuff.

    But the following video made me cringe and laugh at the same time:

    Don’t be stifled bros!

    Like


  132. Wendy Schwartz:

    Psychology is not yet actually a totally empirical science.
    Profiling -if by that, you mean police profiling – is not a science and even the best at it makes mistakes. Cold reading likewise.
    Behaviorial conditioning is but a sub-field of psychology.
    So you don’t know as much as you think you do.

    Even if I assumed the three things really mentioned :psychology, cold reading, and profiling
    were efficious fields of study for learning to get laid by, or get into long term relationships with women, there is the problem that learning this stuff would take years of time and effort and that only a very small portion of what you learned would be applicable to the questions at hand. In short, rather than having someone approach hundreds or thousands of women, try different approaches and write down what seems to work repeatedly and what doesn’t : A simple yet effective form of experimentation, we should instead assume that a simple form of behaviorialism and the opinions of two guys who worked with dreams (Freud and Jung) and had a penchant for writing long obscure treatises filled with obscure dream and cultural icons will be more efficious to our goal in the long run.

    Why should we assume this?

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  133. i’ve no idea why so many people keep responding to or getting incensed by “Wendy Schwartz” or any other female commentators. anything they could possibly say is totally meaningless — none of it could ever escape the constraints that being a) a woman and moreover b) a woman in the first world places on their yappy mouths. they’re marshmallow words ceaselessly broiling over the top of a crusted, sordid-looking pan. they’ll talk and talk and talk and it’s all completely trivial.

    there are some questions women are innately wired to answer ‘dishonestly’ (if at all) and some topics they just cannot offer even the slightest quartz shard of insight over; what drives them sexually and “game” respectively. roissy’s approach is fine — humor them, but understand that anything useful they say is incidental or (more likely) unintentional. it’s his blog, after all. but the rest of you have no excuse.

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  134. There is a difference between neurology and psychology that is more important than merely their titles, there is a difference in intellectual and evidential rigor which is even more pronounced when one brings in things like sociology or political science.

    LOL of course Neurology and Psychology aren’t even comparable, really. Neurology is deals with the actual function of the human brain as an organ, Psychology deals with things that will always be “theories” and things that cannot be seen or measured and subsequently will never be “proven fact”.

    Either way it doesn’t change the fact that those ARE “Social Sciences” and clearly worth learning since those things are exactly what every Federal and State Law Enforcement Agency and even the Military use every single day.

    It also doesn’t change the fact that everything about game IS based on human psychology at its most base level and also basic cold-reading, behavior-conditioning (Jung), and obviously reverse-psychology.

    Until the day the FBI and Military are using “Game Theory”, I think it’s clear why I feel that way and made that statement.

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  135. on November 17, 2009 at 11:43 pm attention whore

    All I want is a stalk-worthy life.

    Like


  136. By the way:

    When you said a “real” social science, I nearly broke up laughing. None of them are real in the sense of the typical scientific field of study. There is a difference between neurology and psychology that is more important than merely their titles, there is a difference in intellectual and evidential rigor which is even more pronounced when one brings in things like sociology or political science. That’s not to say that nothing in the social sciences is ever useful or correct, that IS to say that its pretty much impossible to prove any of it, which inevitably means that many lies exist i n the social science because we have a lack of knowledge about how to absolutely decide some of the questions they deal with one way or the other.

    As an example, Psychology to me, will have arrived, when a basic “psychohistorical” theory can be built and pass when its predictions of the future are testible.

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  137. “[Mystery] wasn’t necessarily attractive, but he was charismatic—tall and thin, with long chestnut hair, high cheekbones, and a bloodless pallor. He looked like a computer geek who’d been bitten by a vampire and was midway through his transformation.”

    – The Game, page 17

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  138. on November 17, 2009 at 11:54 pm attention whore

    kheledale

    none of it could ever escape the constraints that being a) a woman and moreover b) a woman in the first world places on their yappy mouths. they’re marshmallow words ceaselessly broiling over the top of a crusted, sordid-looking pan.

    Them’s fightin’ words big boy.

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  139. it’s simply a fact. women cannot be honest about their sexual preferences — the nature of their id or their superego, or more pertinently, what turns them on. the only time a girl -might- be honest is after you’ve already seduced her. even then, if you’re of high value and the emotional connection is weak, she’ll just tell you what you want to hear.

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  140. there are some questions women are innately wired to answer ‘dishonestly’ (if at all) and some topics they just cannot offer even the slightest quartz shard of insight over; what drives them sexually and “game” respectively. roissy’s approach is fine — humor them, but understand that anything useful they say is incidental or (more likely) unintentional. it’s his blog, after all. but the rest of you have no excuse.

    true dat.

    Like


  141. Bit late on the drug game tip, but it brings me back to the G’s “Greatest Pick-Up Line of All Time.” You could ask, or you could just tell her you’re going for a smoke. And she should come. Granted, this can be hard to pull off in a populated area, but jays are like sex – public risk makes it hot for them.

    That, and there’s two kinds of pick-up lines; the kind you spit, and the kind you snort.

    Gunslinger, I’m selling thirty dollars worth of something to try that out. If it’s anywhere as funny as it sounds, making it rain could turn out to be an expensive habit.

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  142. Some excellent trolling, LR.

    But I must admit it saddens me that it makes you look stupid. I’ve known enough women and heard enough stories from them both r/l and on the internet to know that it’s not always an “instantaneous” thing, so I’m afraid deary, that seduction is possible.

    However you’ve worked very hard today to make sure that no man on this forum would want to ‘seduce’ you. Your persona on here today has been stupid and cunty..which is not something I normally expect from you. Perhaps something IS wrong.

    Like


  143. To Roissy :

    [1] You’ve quipped that you’ve slept with a huge amount of black women. My question is, on average, how “suburban” [Lisa from ‘Saved by the Bell’] or “ghetto” [Lil’ Kim] were these girls? I’m seeing a significant increase in white male/black female couples in my area and have a theory I’d like to verify…

    [editor: if i quipped that i meant it jokingly. no i haven’t slept with a huge amount of black women.]

    (Many white men would like to date black women who are culturally and personally similar to themselves, but don’t mostly due to misconceptions and [stereotypically] seeing it as a challenge with diminishing returns.)

    [2] Did you initially SEEK to date a black woman or have the opportunities just presented themselves naturally?

    [presented naturally.]

    [3] Are there any differences in “Game” techniques and effectiveness you’ve noticed when drawing off young black talent?

    [black chicks require more aggressive displays of intention.]

    [4] Unrelated to the last three questions… You’ve described yourself as a Hedonistic Nihilist. How extensively do you subscribe to the Nihilistic philosophy? I.E. — Would you say that you actually love the women you are involved with in longterm relationships or you see them as a desirable and pleasurable temporary respite from horror vacui?

    [i love some of the women i’m with, but every woman i’ve known occupies a cherished place in my memory.]

    Much obliged.

    Like


  144. Speaking of NLP, I came across this interesting tidbit from a public release Air Force Research Labs special report

    In
    addition, the U.S. Army began the JEDI Project in 1983, which sought to increase human potential using
    teachable models of behavioral/physical excellent by unconventional means (Alexander et al., 1990). The
    JEDI Project was essentially a human-performance modeling experiment based on neuro-linguistic
    programming (NLP) skills, whereby advanced influence technologies to model excellence in human
    performance was used. The program ran under the auspices of the Army INSCOM and the
    Organizational Effectiveness School, and was sponsored by a U.S. government interagency task force.
    Finally, it should be pointed out that the program had successfully trained several hundred people,
    including members of Congress (such as Al Gore, Jr. and Tom Downey), before being terminated.

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  145. Ruby: “I’m seeing a significant increase in white male/black female couples in my area and have a theory I’d like to verify…”

    I’ve seen it and experienced it as well. It’s the one thing I can thank Barack Obama for. On the other hand, I used to like chasing jungle fever because it was a challenge (I’m …. really white), and it is much less so now, so I’ll blame the prick for taking the fun out of the chase.

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  146. Thursday,

    If you like Leighton Meester, google Tori Black. A DEAD RINGER, and does a lot more ‘fun’ things.

    Like


  147. Kheledale’s marshmallow imagery is hilarious. It always amuses me how eagerly women turn to the academic appeals to authority, and with what gullible enthusiasm they embed themselves in the fascist academic process, as a way to avoid both accountability for real-world results and responsibility for ordering their daily existence.

    Having just completed a broad survey on Amazon of books likely to improve human performance, I can confidently contradict Wendy Schwartz’s assertion: the works of academic psychology had 1-2 orders of magnitudes fewer reviews, and of those reviewed few readers reported any practical usefulness.

    CR has already pointed out the barriers to applying the scientific method to seduction. Allow me to deploy CR Maxim #77 for a non-peer-reviewed parsimonious explanation of Wendy’s behavior: “Women will screech louder the closer your words get to damaging or exposing vulnerabilities in their sexual market value.”

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  148. Ideological revolutionary movements follow this pattern:

    Apostasy
    Rebellion
    Agglomeration
    Hierarchization
    Dissolution
    Infighting
    Betrayal

    this is useful to me… source?

    [editor: the source is me.]

    Like


  149. Breeze, I like your thinking! If you want to get together and do some brainstorming on this subject, send me a message at allhailarnold at gmail dot com. I run a self-help magazine so I’m always interested in these kinds of fresh angles on PU.

    Haha, the build of Arnold and the charm of Connery is exactly what I’m aiming for!

    Like


  150. That, and there’s two kinds of pick-up lines; the kind you spit, and the kind you snort.

    Never tried coke but that’s pretty funny.

    Granted, this can be hard to pull off in a populated area, but jays are like sex – public risk makes it hot for them.

    Surprisingly easy if you do a bit of looking around first. Just find a storm drain nearby and smoke right near it. If a cop or security comes, you pretend you don’t hear them, casually throw it down the drain, and go back to your discussion.

    Like


  151. “Wendy Schwartz:

    There is no such thing as “seducing a woman” kheledale.

    A woman knows whether or not she’s going to fuck you the moment she meets you. Any woman who says otherwise is a liar.

    Not much you say or do after that point will change that (which is exactly how Betas become Betas in the first place).”

    :Facepalm:

    Like


  152. For Roissy, being yourself or being natural simply means to obey whatever impulse you are feeling at a given moment.

    A “natural PUA” is a guy whose natural impulses just work to pick up women. In other words, he doesn’t have to remind himself to be cocky and funny; he doesn’t have to kick himself into approaching; he doesn’t have to think about which girl to talk to or when it’s the right time to touch her or kiss her. It all comes naturally to him. He didn’t learn it. That’s what “he’s a natural” means in any context.

    The theory to “natural game” seems to be that you should just go out there and act like a natural, and as you have some success, it will gradually become less of an act and more of a natural way of being. There’s probably some truth to that. If you’ve always feared women and been supplicating and they’ve ignored you, so over several weekends you force yourself (or get drunk enough) to approach tons of them and act like your jerk buddy who’s always getting laid, using the same lines and moves he does, and you wake up one morning next to a 6 when your previous lays have all been 4s, that’s going to make it easier for you to continue improving. You won’t necessarily understand why what you’re doing is working, or be able to expand it beyond the specific moves you copied from naturals, but you’ll become more confident and successful with women.

    Of course, that assumes that they don’t see through you and realize you’re a beta acting like an alpha, in which case they’ll scorn you in a hurry. (Which is why it helps if they’re drunk too, to dull their perceptions.) If you don’t get lucky pretty soon, it may just confirm for you that some guys have it and you don’t.

    The other school, like DYD, says you need to learn how men and women work and why the bad boys get the chicks, and then apply that to yourself, building confidence and manliness from the inside, and letting that change your external outlook and attitude. This takes longer, and you have to be careful not to get so caught up in the learning that you never get out there and put it into practice. But it has the potential to give you a real command of the subject that you can apply to any situation at all, not just ones you’ve seen and can copy.

    Say you don’t know anything about fishing, but you know a guy who’s a great fisherman, who seems to always catch the most fish. If you follow him around and fish in the spots he just left using the same bait he used, you’ll probably catch more fish than if you just flounder (ha!) around by yourself, and you may start to feel like a great fisherman. But the day he retires from fishing, will you know how to find those spots yourself? Will you recognize that he went to spot A in the mornings when the breeze was from the north, and never at other times? Maybe you’ll pick up a few of those things from observation, but mostly you won’t. On the other hand, if you start with the basics and learn why fish go where they go and why they feed when and where they do, you won’t need to follow anyone around from the start.

    Personally, I think a mix of the two is probably best when it comes to this subject. I think most guys, having been badly trained by feminism and the entertainment industry’s twisted notion of romance, need to start with something like DYD that breaks some bad thinking habits and introduces some new paradigms. But they also need to man up and approach some women (even if it’s just online), to reinforce what they’re learning—to learn that women are approachable, that rejection isn’t the end of the world, and that dealing with women can be the good kind of adventure. You need to learn how and why to present your bait in the time, place, and manner that will catch you the most fish; but you also need to catch one once in a while to keep your interest high and boost your confidence.

    Like


  153. In Response to Lupo :

    My only personal issue with these white male/black male couples is that the white males by and large seem to be SWPL or Hipster Liberals… all seemingly hitting upon these relationships by luck or nervous tenacity rather than skill and “Game” as real men do.

    I am a black male, but the majority of my friends tend to be highly intelligent white males who I think represent a generous sample of the wider population. While they are fast on their way to becoming the “Leaders of Tomorrow”, many are apparently ‘Paper Alphas’ due to their inability to compete aggressively and effectively in the Sexual Market and against other [lesser] men in street society.

    The university city I live in is highly multicultural, with various ethnic communities juxtaposed next to and even through each other. It is safe to say there is a lot of ethnic tension and gated communities where I live.

    The latter phenomenon — gated communities — mostly populated by whites and Asians, are a fair and logical response to the negative ways these tensions sometimes manifest themselves within my city… But these same communities tend to perpetuate a tragic weakness within the same children they aim to protect:

    These children are rarely prepared for the extensive harshness of the “real” world.

    Whether this harshness be the perceived aggressiveness or boldness of other types of people, the Machiavellian Sexual, Career, Social or Financial Markets or the entirety of our nation itself.

    This brings me to my next point — The old addage “Familiarity breeds contempt” loses something here. I’ve noticed that a lot of these same highly intelligent white guys who are products of these gated communities or self-sufficient suburbs tend to harbor extreme disdain for others not like them once they actually are exposed to the real world.

    I’d argue that these attitudes [presented [, not fully without justification but somewhat tragically,] online through such blogging communities as “Men’s Rights” and “Human Bio-Diversity”] are a result of three factors:

    * The realization by these groups via slow exposure that they way they were raised by well-intending Liberal or Quasi-Conservative parents ISN’T conducive to a desirable and effective life.

    * That this same way of life and hard work to maintain it no longer guarantees that these men are guaranteed means to entering the higher echelons of society.

    * A sort of existential “Fight or Flight” response sort of takes over these young men who have been exposed to the real world, shuffling them into the pitiful lifestyle that we see contributing to the ruination of our civilization today… SWPL half-men.

    In these cases, UNFAMILIARITY with the real world ends up woefully preparing these young men for their truest trials and tribulations, then causing a deep resentment for those who are [incorrectly] perceived to have usurped their natural position.

    There is a solution to all this. The short answer is to make universal Conservative values and practices desirable, effective and empowering again for youth and society.

    But the logistics of this project require a discussion in themselves. I’ll write on this later.

    Like


  154. on November 18, 2009 at 11:03 am gunslingergregi

    Ruby did ya really mean men on men?

    lol

    But yea the swpl lifestyle is what actually protects those kids from having police records.

    They become rule followers which is what you need to be to make it unscathed through the system and land that great job. Societies laws now direct you to be that pussy that gets punched in the face and then runs and tells the teacher without even defending yourself.

    ”””’all seemingly hitting upon these relationships by luck or nervous tenacity rather than skill and “Game” as real men do.””””””””’

    I’ll say it again because it is true.
    It doesn’t take skill for a white man to pick up some black chick it just takes being white. Just like it takes no skill for a black guy to pick up certain white chicks they just have to be black. I go into a black club and I have a choice of some black chicks it is what it is.

    I happened to get born at the exact right time for me so when I got in fights in the past it was no big deal. Now the police are automatically called and paper trail must be started.

    It is def geared towards the perfect rule follower now and no matter how bad the state is fucking you your supposed to just take it like a good girl

    Like


  155. All the information put out there for us to take in was essentially the “red pill.” It helped some of us see aspects of social dynamics for what they really are. A natural alpha knows how to lead an interaction, however he can still mess things up. IMO, the term “be a natural” is to realize your beta tendancies, remove them, and become that better natural alpha.

    Have you guys ever seen a guy, who hasn’t studied game, do ridiculous things to get attention? Many of them are naturals, but jumping up on tables screaming “look at me look at me” is just ridiculous. Don’t be that guy.

    Like


  156. Ruby, that’s some extremely interesting stuff right there. What do you mean though when you say SWPL is existential “fight or flight”? I always thought SWPL was just being stuck in social conditioning and low self-esteem.

    Like


  157. LR says:

    There is no such thing as “seducing a woman” kheledale.

    A woman knows whether or not she’s going to fuck you the moment she meets you. Any woman who says otherwise is a liar.

    Not much you say or do after that point will change that (which is exactly how Betas become Betas in the first place).

    my opinion on LR varies. mostly i just find her to be an annoying troll, but sometimes i think having her here is interesting because she represents two very important obstacles to men in this country developing game: overentitled skanks who still want to be doted on like pristine princesses, and a complete disbeelief that game can do what it claims to do.

    so LR, i’m glad that you so adamanantly deny the existence of game. you are the living and breathing embodiment of everything we need to change in this decadent society.

    here’s a serious question: what do you say to guys who have successfully implemented game? what do you make of a guy who says, “i used to be a chump. girls would like me, find me funny, want to spend time around me, but were never attracted to me. once i developed some game, that changed. now, women who never were, are all of a sudden sexually attracted to me.”

    are these men liars? is it a coincidence? what say you?

    Like


  158. AHA

    Ruby, that’s some extremely interesting stuff right there. What do you mean though when you say SWPL is existential “fight or flight”? I always thought SWPL was just being stuck in social conditioning and low self-esteem.

    i think i have an idea of what ruby is saying, but i’m not sure so i will wait and hear his response.

    i do, however, have a different take on the self-esteem issue. a lost of SWPL types, especially the women, have tremendous self-esteem. this is mostly because they grew up in environments of constant positive reinforcement and because they have never really been tested. the way that upper-middle class kids are raised today leads to the very odd mix of a lot of intelligence, but very little wisdom; a lot of knowledge of the outside world, but very little sense of who they are on the inside.

    young people tend to be more radical anyway, they have less to lose; so, add that to what i’ve mentioned above and it becomes quite clear how the obama generation happens. just think about the slogan, “yes we can.” it’s self-affirming, but at the same time requires very little knowledge of self. in fact, the individual self is something to be transcended in the name of some larger social project. “yes we can…” we can what? the what doesn’t matter. it’s beside the point.

    this all stems from the fact that these kids are a generation or more removed from the experiences that granted them they’re priviliged lives in the first place. they have no idea what it took to build those suburbs, or to maintain those good schools, or to keep the streets safe. to them, all those things are essentially natural resources that just happen to be in the hands of one group instead of another. if people really want to do their kids, and society as a whole, a favor, they should stop handing them everything on a silver platter.

    Like


  159. Wendy Schwartz

    OMG. ROF LMAO……

    You ARE aware that “Tyler Durden” is an imaginary character played by Brad Pitt, right?

    [editor: this was not a useful comment. try again.]*

    *ed, it’s apparent it’s time for a Wnedy Hall Of Fame thread. A depository of all her greatest.

    I insist upon full credit for the idea

    [editor: the chateau crack team is on it. stay tuned this weekend. but unfortunately you will have to share credit. though i can’t prove it, i do have a “best of wendy” post saved in my drafts from a couple months ago.]

    Like


  160. I have to agree from what i have read here and personally witnessed….the majority of PUA types out there are former nerds who are overcompensating.

    I was at 18th st. lounge in DC last summer with a mixed group of friends both male and female. The outdoor bar was packed with people. My group was circled up near the bar and over the course of about an hour several dudes approached our circle and introduced themselves to the group. They seemed overly friendly and trying too hard. Eventually they each ran out of things to say and faded out. I noticed that the same dudes kind of huddled together in the corner… all of them were pretty much tool bags. One of the guys was dressed in a suit (no tie), though he was short and had shoulder length douchebag looking hair. It appeared he was explaining something to these guys and it was clear to me that this was a PUA class that was practicing. I laughed to myself when the instructor came up to me and started chatting. My group had several good looking women in it so I guess he was trying to win my favor and enter the group. I’m the tallest and best looking guy in the group so maybe he perceived me as the alpha. At 6’3′ 200 I was about twice his size. Maybe the approach was to immediately address and win the favor of the men in the group and hope to get noticed by the females. Not a single girl even noticed him.

    I indulged his conversation asked him who he was here with and he said just some buddies.

    I asked, pointing to the group of guys huddled in the corner, “you mean those guys over there?”

    “Yeah.”

    “Are you teaching them how to pick up women?” He was taken aback by my question, as if he couldnt believe it was possible for someone to deduce this.

    “Um yeah how did you know?”

    “It’s pretty obvious”

    He became uncomfortable that I knew what they were doing and he started acting like a bitch and sucking up to me and asking me all kinds of questions to prolong the conversation. If this is how he approaches women I feel bad for his class. After about 6 or 7 minutes I said “said good talking to ya buddy” and excused myself turning back to my friends. He handed me a cheesy looking business card that had the name of his PUA group. I wish I remembered what it was at this point.

    Anyway – the moral of the story is that this dude wasnt cool at all. He wasnt shy, but he just came off like he was trying way too hard based on his demeanor and his appearance. I cant imagine he actually pulls women of any significant quality. My guess is that he is a dork who has read all the canned PUA material and memorized like a nerd who memorizes the Klingon language.

    Like


  161. on November 18, 2009 at 1:46 pm personal trainer

    LR was the little girl who wanted to tag along with the little boys until she touched their little cocks then ran all the way home to tell her parents.

    BTW

    Ur still queen douche nugget.

    Like


  162. Roissy,

    “The original movement splinters into petty factions, along the way sloughing off the hard-won knowledge that defined its success.”

    I don’t see much evidence that this second part is happening to a significant degree. Both that previous post from a VA instructor (warning more about fly-by-night ripoff artists than a major trend) and this post are notably devoid of examples and stats.

    Mystery split with his former business partner, resulting in two competing companies — Love Systems and Venusian Arts. Both teach the same basic routine-based, structure-based game. And they represent two of the most influential teaching organizations in pickup.

    I suppose Mehow represents another major “faction” — and he also teaches structure-based and routine-based game.

    BradP is a major rising star, but he mainly teaches field-based game (approach approach approach!) and openly doesn’t care where you learn your theory (so long as that’s not all you do). His own game is very routine-based and he has contributed to an LS routines manual.

    I think Juggler’s method is much closer to “natural game” – but he’s a veteran, too. His POV has been part of the industry from the start. And is he even around anymore?

    Sure, there are new companies (often led by very handsome players who can do looks-based game) falsely promising the world by “just being yourself,” but I don’t believe they represent a trend that is actually dominating or threatening to dominate the industry. Is there a single “natural game” company with the stature of Love Systems, Venusian Arts or Mehow?

    Is there any other significant evidence that “the seduction community is abandoning the hard-won lessons that made it successful in the first place”?

    Like


  163. “A woman knows whether or not she’s going to fuck you the moment she meets you. Any woman who says otherwise is a liar.”

    Not true. There are plenty of guys who are very physically attractive who I would never fuck because of their personality. There are guys who I haven’t immediately found sexy but who became so when I got to know them. It’s true though that most men are an instant ‘no’ from the moment I lay eyes on them. But I reserve judgment for the cuter ones. I have been very careful not to get involved with assholes, no matter how beautiful (have only been involved with two men).

    Like


  164. Ruby: “My only personal issue with these white male/black male couples is that the white males by and large seem to be SWPL or Hipster Liberals…”

    Well, speaking only for myself, I’m not into porking black guys: just their women. I’m about the farthest thing in the world from a SWPL: I’m a redneck with a brain, as Jim Goad put it. I’m not sure how your long tirade on SWPL’s (which I agree with, BTW) relates to this: I’m just saying, it’s way easier to bonk colored girls than it used to be. This is no small thing, as they traditionally loathe rednecks.

    Like


  165. T. Pullo,”Bring them the still beating heart of an enemy. It makes them wet as October. They say it doesn’t but it does.”

    [editor: pure poetry… of flesh.]

    I’m oddly flattered. Probably shouldn’t be.

    Like


  166. How to ask a girl if she smokes pot:

    “do you smoke?” that simple. Don’t name it in any way or if you must say you are going outside to a car to smoke a “j”.

    Nothing beats out a natural, we all know this. Game emulates what naturals already do. For real success, strip a “nerd” down to the bare bones and re-build him. Do the job his parents never did and he couldn’t seem to do for himself.

    You can also wait it out for a few years as a “nerd” because “alphas” are becoming so cruel, unforgiving and carrying such bloated egos that they will eventually drive all females into the arms of nice/nerdy/beta guys anyhow. They will no longer be the settle, they will be what women will be seeking.

    Like


  167. Not the way I’ve always heard the term used. If we say a guy is a natural at hitting a baseball, that means he just picked up a bat and started hitting the ball well without any training; he seems to have a natural talent at it that he was born with. So a natural with women is a guy who has always done well with them, and it just comes naturally to him. If you have to learn how to do it, you’re not a natural.

    It doesn’t have anything to do with what women are attracted to, because that would mean that all successful game is natural game.

    The poster you are rebutting is correct, and ‘natural’ clearly has more than one meaning. Owen Cook’s ‘method’ is basically all about being ballsy as fuck. Grab a girl by the wrist, pull her in, say whatever shit to her that will amuse you, offer no validation, talk about sex early and openly.

    RSD’s “Natural Game” is about what Cook terms in Blueprint ‘Masculine Polarity’. Being what women want. They don’t disavow routines entirely, but that they aren’t strictly necessary. Routines are a DHV. Ultimately you are supposed to develop your own routines, your own stories that are true. That is, the ultimate goal is to be interesting, and be expressive. At that point they aren’t ‘routines’ at all, and thinking of them as such is probably counter productive.

    MM has its rules, and they are mostly very good, but what should be rule 1, is just a footnote in MM.

    Rule 1 is fuck the rules. Any rule, any method is there to help you. What Mystery calls ‘Calibration’ is so nebulous and ill defined to make MM worthless to the practitioner doesn’t ‘get’ the concept because he is socially inept. Some people just cannot think on their feet, and they latch onto the nuts and bolts of MM.

    That guy is going to become a ‘social robot’. He will probably get over a lot of his social anxieties running those routines, still strike out way too much, say ‘fuck this, I’m just going to be myself’ and then start getting even better results.

    Even though he’s still socially inept, he’s not shy any more, and he’s not as timid about getting what he wants. Being ‘Natural’ is a better method for this guy.

    Like


  168. In Response to GunslingerGregI :

    *”White Male/Black FEmale couples…” Thank you.

    Also, I have to agree — The circumstances that these young men are bred to follow do allow them to SURVIVE within our current system; Unfortunately though, they do not equip these same young men with the tools and the right state of mind to go forth into the unknown, conquer, thrive and MOST IMPORTANTLY — start over again if they first fail.

    Lastly, it would seem that being a decent looking middle class Western white male is en-vogue in the Global Sexual Market. Ask most military personnel who have travelled — I’ve been regaled with tales of white soldiers/sailors/marines/airmen who dress reasonably well (business casual) and mix with foreign native populaces with minimal skills, then successfully drawing from the pretty young talent of those areas as if they are true Players. Asians, Hispanics and Black soldiers/sailors/marines/airmen usually have to invest exponentially more effort in DHV and rapport when attempting the same. Though, each ethnicity has their areas of strength. (Curiously, black male military personnel tend to do extremely well in Germany, Taiwan and the Phillipines.)

    In Response to AHA :

    The existential “Fight or Flight” refers to the anxiety these usually young white and Asian males feel when first immersed into the “Real World” fresh out of highschool and/or college.

    This is a personal, communal and cultural phenomenon where the “Fight” option refers to conscious and empowered decision that these young men made historically to join and participate one of the career or social echelons (Industry, Service, Education, Military, Media, Religion, Finance, Etc.) that drive Western Civilization. The “Flight” option refers to the mass disenfranchisement young men of all ethnicities and cultures now feel in the West that drives them away from competing in the ‘Systemic Shuffle’ and towards SWPL, Hipster, Liberal, Neo-Conservative and Man-Child [or tragically, in the case of many young black men, “Baby Boy” nihilism] type lifestyles.

    In Response to J R :

    You condensed what I was saying all within 1 MOA. I really can’t add anything else to it.

    In Response to Lupo :

    Hah, noted. I’m at least glad to see that some of my fairer skinned southern brethren are playing “the Game” with universal success.

    [Cont’d.]

    Like


  169. on November 19, 2009 at 3:19 am msexceptiontotherule

    “Wendy Schwartz
    Just ordered a copy of “The Mystery Method” for my 16 yr old son who BTW lives with his mother from hell..
    *stomach hurts from laughing so hard at the prospect*
    Congratulations. Instead of handing him some Emerson or Jung, you are handing him a tall, faggy, make-up wearing, metro-pussy like “Mystery” as his hero.
    I’m sorry and we wonder what is happening to the world?”

    Last I checked, not many adults are capable of truly understanding Emerson or Jung, nor are either of them easily interpreted for use in social situations and dating; particularly during adolescence, since that period of time in life is already burdened enough with academic pressures and establishing oneself a place in the general hierarchy. While “Mystery” (from my standpoint) seems to be one of those guys who had a lot of “fat gothic chicks” as his friends, and probably got beat up a lot in high school; he’s at least entertaining in an amusing way, and could very well have a lot more material that a 16 year old would find useful, unlike Jung or Emerson.

    “Wendy Schwartz
    OMG. ROF LMAO……
    You ARE aware that “Tyler Durden” is an imaginary character played by Brad Pitt, right?”

    I’m pretty sure everyone uses assumed-identities, that’s sort of how anonymous is supposed to work, and if someone feels like making up a name for themselves and then goes out to a bar and uses it there too, so what? It’s not as if they’re expecting to start a LTR and only use their “nickname” – it’s merely to go out and anonymously fuck women.

    “Wendy Schwartz

    [editor: still not useful…] Let me see if I can try my hand at this

    “Doesn’t make it any less true, now does it?
    [editor: the sun rising in the east is true, but mentioning it over and over in the comments wouldn’t be useful. back to the drawing board with you.]”

    “Wendy Schwartz basically….everything about PUA and learning game is just a “lazy-man’s” way of avoiding learning a REAL Social Science.
    It’s like a Miracle Diet Pill. It causes more problems than it fixes and doesn’t really work to start with….
    but people will sure run to it hopefully to avoid being disciplined, motivated, or anything but lazy…..”

    Kind of like stripping because it’s easy money and doesn’t require much effort and zero intelligence. Men may be lazy and tend to focus on just one thing where women are concerned, but in general, they tend to be honest about what intentions they have at any given time. How much discipline does it require to take off clothing on stage in a room full of strangers, and what motivation does it provide to those who work in such occupations, other than a significant hatred for men in general, the obsession with money, and to avoid any real planning for employment after they become too old to strip? It’s an exercise in folly to continue throwing out random comments without any basis in logic – though at this point I doubt any of the guys here are bothering to look for any and are simply going right to insults when they see a comment with your fake name on it.

    “Wendy Schwartz
    There is no such thing as “seducing a woman” kheledale.
    A woman knows whether or not she’s going to fuck you the moment she meets you. Any woman who says otherwise is a liar.
    Not much you say or do after that point will change that (which is exactly how Betas become Betas in the first place).
    [editor: raine, you’re losing it. step away from the computer.]” (you’ll need to have more authority behind your statements to get your point across Roissy, but hell, if the past record shows anything, you’ll have more than enough opportunities in the future)

    That’s funny wendy, since I met my husband in passing all the way back in my senior year of high school, and over the years before we actually dated, we encountered each other numerous times. Yet, because both of us were in relationships just about every one of those times in the past, we didn’t hook up – I can’t speak for him, but I didn’t know I was going to date him much less fuck him or marry him when I first saw him or even over a number of years afterwards. When we went on our first official date, I was attracted to him, but wasn’t sure that he was “my type”. Turns out, being willing to keep an open mind led to quite possibly the best relationship that I will ever have had in my lifetime.

    Like


  170. on November 19, 2009 at 2:48 am msexceptiontotherule

    “gunslingergregi

    ”””””’When naturals say “be yourself,” I think they’re assuming that every guy has a confident, fun, masculine personality at his core, and it’s been suppressed by society’s influence and overlaid with a beta exterior. So if he just lets that out, he’ll be golden. I’m not sure that’s true though; even if every guy had that at one time, it may be so beaten down that he can’t find it anymore. So “be yourself” may truly mean “be frightened and supplicating” to too many guys…”

    People are much more resilient than they imagine. Anyone who has encountered a situation that calls for self-preservation and the tactics for core-personality defense has simply buried that part of themselves for the time when it is safe to emerge from their internal bomb shelter. The fact that it is a defense tactic which was chosen is why and how it merely requires a person to decide it’s safe for them to return to the natural state of being: capable, confident, and socially at-ease.

    “They need to learn how men and women work first, so they can tear down some of the fear, then locate and build up whatever masculine core they forgot they had.””””””””””””””””

    (resuming with response for gunz in 5….4…..3….2….)
    “Suggestions for rebuilding core. Go shoot something. Get in some fights. Kill a deer.”

    Hey, you shouldn’t be giving advice intended to permanently eliminate competition. At least throw in a good tip like “never ride a motorcycle anywhere with a significant deer population known to be the cause of frequent traffic accidents.”

    Like


  171. I luv all u guys:

    “Step right up! Impress the ladies with Natural SP – with new and improved ‘Negizer 2000’ as reviewed in the New York Times.”

    “It slices – it dices – it removes unsightly stains!”

    “Gitcha 100% gay-run-teed PUA right here as presented by that celebrated international man of mystery – for only $19.99!”

    You crack me up

    Like


  172. on November 19, 2009 at 2:25 pm gunslingergregi

    ””””””’Hey, you shouldn’t be giving advice intended to permanently eliminate competition. At least throw in a good tip like “never ride a motorcycle anywhere with a significant deer population known to be the cause of frequent traffic accidents.”””””””””’

    There is no competition when they are the right ones for me.

    Like


  173. ToAnon six comments above:

    well said and well broken down.

    Like


  174. on November 19, 2009 at 7:00 pm Wendy Schwartz

    msexception–

    I never said that stripping required any skill or intellect. Why would anyone make such a claim? And I completely agree that “career stripping” is the most retarded move a person could make. Dancers find themselves 40 years old with no employment history, no 401K, and no REAL life skills.

    I don’t know if you were just ranting about stripping or attempting to insult me, personally but considering I only danced for 8 MONTHS in my entire life, I don’t really see how that even applies to me.

    It’s excellent supplemental, tax free income that far outpays getting a second job pretty much anywhere on earth.

    Again, I never claimed dancing required being anything but being completely comfortable being nude around strangers, so your insults are kind of wasted on me.

    Like


  175. on November 19, 2009 at 7:03 pm Wendy Schwartz

    OH! Also, msexception…..I hardly think Jung OR Emerson is something that “most adults can’t even read” because they teach BOTH in like the 10th grade in high school.

    That is a ridiculous statement to make unless you are referring to a 16 year old that lives in a ghetto somewhere.

    Like


  176. on November 19, 2009 at 7:13 pm Wendy Schwartz

    JR–

    I’m sorry, I didn’t see you directly asked me a question.

    You keep saying that I “deny game exists or works”. I deny no such thing. I’m sure it DOES work, but I don’t see how you are “winning” by being able to randomly stick your dick in more holes. Indulging your ID and even speakingly disdainfully of when you used to be considered “a good man, a marrying man”.

    Basically I’m sure it DOES help men to achieve fucking more drunk, slutty girls, or maybe even fucking more attractive women in general…..but how is that an “achievement” or a “success”???? That’s like going back to just grunting instead of talking and being “proud & excited” about your achievement.

    All game has done is teach men to focus even MORE on their basic urges and LESS on building any actual character. It’s made men actually BECOME exactly what there stereotype has always been….sex-obsessed drooling idiots that can’t make a decision that ISN’T based around their dicks.

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  177. I can review a PU instructor. It will be a very good review though. Bootcamp with him, and the current long-term training has changed my life.

    Although I did my research before signing up with him. And I completely agree with the points you make in the article. Fundamentals are king.

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  178. Has anyone read DavidX’s “Be Relentless?” It’s rings pretty true to how the best naturals I’ve seen in the real world act. He keeps saying that you should tell a woman what you really think. That’s probably something like what most naturals mean when tell their befuddled friends to “just be yourself.” “What you really think” meaning letting the girl know you have a sexual agenda and being very comfortable with that and calling her on all bullshit.

    There are two kinds of guys who are good with women but who have never studied game: guys who learned game on their own, and guys who always had it. The first group use mystery method like tactics such as negging, making her validate herself, etc. in the context of funny, teasing type of conversation. The other kind, who tend to be hyper masculine, are very aggressive and blunt and sometimes even act like they are intimidating girls into sex.

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  179. on November 20, 2009 at 5:41 am Venusian Arts Knack

    You want to know good instructors?

    Ask them who they taught that has skill with women. For fucks sake why would you care if your instructor is good with women (other than to know hes at least knowledgeable)?? What is important is can he HELP YOU???

    If they pull out a bunch of good looking kids under 30… as they guys that are their greatest success stories than they are probably leading you down the wrong path.

    When I was young and 20ish and fit, I could get laid anytime I wanted. Its not fucking hard. Game isnt even king when you are young as long as you actually do SOME kind of approach you will get laid semi-regularly.

    After I was divorced, old, fat, and bald, I had to work my ass off to learn to get SKILL with women. When you have little to work with on the outside physically (I have height on my side but honestly that is very often as much an advantage as a disadvantage), you know what works and what doesnt work.

    I have had amazing successes with students (who I will not give their actual names):

    Cuisine: A short jewish balding guy with a little pot belly near 40 who is probabably the best daygamer I know. Regularly dates cute young girls

    Adept: Ok, I admit the guy is young and very good looking, but that proves a point. If you can teach older guys with little outward appearance you can teach the good looking kids too

    Salacious Bond: A very short guy in his late 30s who is currently seeing a stunningly beautiful doctor in her 20s for a year

    (name withheld): a very old man in his late 60’s early 70’s from the midwest, who is regularly scoring hot babes in thier 20’s. Due to the nature of his business I wont say his name, but you will see him in the news

    Celtic: Probably had the worse voice tonality Ive ever heard (he used to sound like a Cylon from the original Battlestar Galactica {fuck Im getting old}) and the second worse body language Ive ever seen (his walk was more robotic than C3P0). Dating a Bikini model.

    Seriously dudes… ask for references. Hell ask if the references wouldnt mind going into set.

    When I ran bootcamps I had students demand Cuisine and I open over and over again because they couldnt believe guys that looked like us could get the reactions we get based on what we looked like. Its nice but the real proof is what an instructor does for their pupils. That is the mark of a TEACHER.

    Like


  180. To the guy who claimed a man was a loser because he had a “mail order bride”…there is no such thing. If he got a fat, stupid woman who happened to be foreign, that is one thing, but getting a highly educated non-feminist 8,9 or 10 from another country is often a winning move.

    Remember the IMBRA law now takes your right to meet foreign women away…courtesy of jealous feminists. They woulldn’t be trying so hard to stop men from dating foreign women if they hadn’t noticed a lot of the best alphas ignoring them.

    Regarding natural game…I think a number of guys have noted that it is really about getting the layers of beta propaganda removed and, I will add the obvious, about reading the Men’s Rights blogs and knowing how feminists want you to behave so you do the opposite (what should have come naturally if you weren’t raised under feminism).

    I look back at the opportunities I missed when I was young because I was taught the wrong things:

    1) I was taught a woman would discuss sex openly and say she wants it if she wants it. Therefore, I had coeds in college literally lying in my lap and I didn’t figure they wanted anything because they weren’t *saying so*.

    2) I heard the “never take advantage of a drunk woman” 10,000 times and it was bad advice. A half dozen 10s were available only while they were drunk and rudely rejected me when they were sober on the phone.

    3) The idea that women don’t like being approached on the street or at the beach…I luckily learned early not to think like this. The idea that a man can pre-screen himself as not being good enough for a 9 half his age? A good teacher will make sure a man stops thinking this way.

    You teach natural game by tellling men to ignore the BS put forth by feminists and social cons.

    Incidentally, the 1970 book “How to Pick Up Girls” was the most important book I ever read.

    The main thing I got from that book was to constantly approach gorgeous women in public as if it was natural as a reflex.

    Like


  181. Pre-meditating things to say and do is no different than how a pedophile premiditates things to say and do. Pua’s are weird and creepy. You don’t get it and never will.

    Like


  182. on January 9, 2010 at 3:59 pm gunslingergregi

    So then that is the same as people who go to a job interview and pre-meditate what you are going to do or say. Also the same as premeditating what you will say or do on a test that you take. Which is no diferent than training for any occupation where you will training so that you can premeditate what you will say or do. Wow nicholas pretty enlightening shit there. How do you know so much about pedophiles?

    Like


  183. Part of the issue is that there are at least three meanings for the terms “natural” or “natural game” floating around out there.

    Meaning 1. Somebody who is good at picking up chicks without any training.

    A natural is that one in 100,000 guy who is good at picking up chicks without PUA training. They are being themselves because who they are just happens to be what women want.

    Meaning 2: Bringing out some (undefined) real you to the surface even if you aren’t good at picking up women. This somehow makes you a natural even if you aren’t one. Sounds like BS…

    Meaning 3: Vibing, being intuitive, going without preparation, being in the flow, having no method, etc. Ok, we can see where this will get AFCs

    People are out there trying to teach ‘Natural game’ to guys who are not the one in 100,000 aren’t being honest about their marketing.

    Like


  184. Fitting your approach to the type of chick.
    Rush talks about RJ chicks (relationship) -vs- Mr. Smooth (fuck) chicks!

    From [email protected] Fri Apr 7 04:55:59 2000
    From: [email protected] (Rush274)
    Newsgroups: alt.seduction.fast
    Subject: A letter to Maniac High

    This is a letter I wrote to Maniac High a couple of weeks agothat he asked me
    to post here. It’s in its entirity.

    Hi Maniac,
    I love your website; it has given me quite a few great pointers, but there’s
    one thing I want to elaborate on. Basically, I’ve found that where you usually
    get into trouble is when you pick up a girl Mr. Smooth style, and then switch
    to a lovey-dovey romantic style on the date itself. I’ve found that there are
    two kinds of chicks, the Mr. Smooth type, and the Ross Jeffries seduction type.
    I’m not saying they don’t cross over in many places, but whenever you pick up
    a girl with that aggressive, “my shit don’t stink”, Mr. Smooth method, it’s a
    good idea to stick in that mode on the date.
    For example, watch Raging Bull and notice how Robert DeNiro gets Cathy
    Moriarty to fuck him. It looks unreal on film, but it works like that in real
    life. What this means is that on the date, Speed Seduction goes out the
    window. The hardcore Alpha male does not talk about passions in life, what
    their first kiss was like, while looking deep into the girl’s eyes, and holding
    her hand or giving her a massage. Granted, the SS method works on most chicks,
    but usually not the kind you meet in Clubs. Remember when you were in high
    school or college; there was that guy who was always banging come fine-ass
    chick; he was usually a football player, or other aggressive type. He had no
    idea about Ross Jeffries, but he could score like the best SS’er. There is no
    blueprint map like SS for this, so it takes a lot of practice to get it down.
    Basically, you need to be very blunt, say some really wild and crazy shit, put
    her in a few awkward positions, and I garauntee she will get wrapped up in the
    game. The most important this is that you give off that ultra-confident
    attitude, and she will follow you anywhere. You don’t have to ask for
    anything, nor word anything in one of those funny, setting up
    challenges/structuring oppurtunities sort of way. You just tell her bluntly
    what to do.
    Think about all those times you’ve tried to get a girl’s number subtley, and
    then just brought out your pen and paper and said “give me your number”. I’m
    not saying you should do this with all girls, most won’t go for it, but the
    super-fine, outgoing, and uninhibited types of girls you meet at clubs will.
    This kind of girl really wants a guy that she will respect, and follow. Trust
    me, she has already been out the hundreds of guys, and has already met guys
    that pull off SS, whether or not they knew what they were doing.
    So, it’s better to have two approaches in your repetoir: SS style, and an
    ultra-confident style. You will have far more success when you master both,
    and learn when and where to use them.
    Oh yeah, one more thing. I just wanted to comment on Ms. Sparkles. You did
    many of the right things…I mean, laying on the SS like that usually will get
    the chick, despite the fact that you did make a few minor mistakes that have
    already been pointed out. Just remember that when a girl is truly in love with
    her boyfriend, and he provides her with everything she wants in a guy, there
    is absolutely nothing you can say or do that will change her mind about him.
    That is, of course, if she’s not just telling herself that, but really has that
    truly deep feeling for him that totally captures her imagination.

    -Rush274

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  185. I am just wondering if anyone ever read Tony or Maniac High? I used to read him back in the day (like 12 years ago). The material is still online. A great compilation of stuff.

    Like


  186. There’s actually quite some truth to the first parts of the revolution process you described, except that you describe it with a negative tone.

    Artificial game is dead, long live to authenticity and integrity 😛

    Like


  187. Part of the issue is that there are at least three meanings for the terms “natural” or “natural game” floating around out there.

    Meaning 1. Somebody who is good at picking up chicks without any training.

    A natural is that one in 100,000 guy who is good at picking up chicks without PUA training. They are being themselves because who they are just happens to be what women want.

    Meaning 2: Bringing out some (undefined) real you to the surface even if you aren’t good at picking up women. This somehow makes you a natural even if you aren’t one. Sounds like BS…

    Meaning 3: Vibing, being intuitive, going without preparation, being in the flow, having no method, etc. Ok, we can see where this will get AFCs

    People are out there trying to teach ‘Natural game’ to guys who are not the one in 100,000 aren’t being honest about their marketing.
    http://ixrealsocialdynamicsxi.blogspot.com/
    real social dynamics blueprint
    rsd blueprint
    real social dynamic
    real social dynamics blueprint decoded

    Like