Should Struggling Seducers Practice On Hot Babes Or Plain Janes?

It’s a perennial question among aspiring skirt-chasers:

Should the novice seducer cut his teeth on hot babes or ease into the womanizer’s ways on less intimidating plain janes? It’s the “stepping stone” theory versus the “immersion therapy” theory, and there are equal numbers of advocates for each model.

CH take: On paper, the Hot Babe Immersion Theory is more sound than the Plain Jane Stepping Stone Theory, but in practice I think it has some limitations which I will discuss below.

Reader themanofmystery2 gives the best argument in favor of Hot Babe Immersion,

CH, what do you think about this approach for newbies? I’m teaching my late-teens cousins this tactic.

Find the hottest women in every situation, and ONLY APPROACH THEM. they are likely to produce the most anxiety, but there is no substitute for logging the time and experience. Every minute spend chatting up a 10 makes you more skilled at chatting up a 10. The conversation itself should be the goal, just to log the hours. Get on the fucking bike and fall off a few times. Skip past the training wheels.


1. If you score, it’s a fucking home run and confidence builder
2. If you get rejected, there’s no shame in getting rejected by a 10. Happens to the best of us.
3. 9s and 10s, for various reasons espoused here and elsewhere in the manosphere, tend to have sweeter dispositions and are approached less than 6s, 7s, and 8s. This results in less Bitch Backturns.

The logic appears airtight. “If you want to get better at seducing hot babes, you’ve gotta talk to hot babes.”

And all three benefits themanofmystery2 describes are valid: successfully seducing a hot babe is a confidence boost on par with closing a multi-million dollar deal, the rejection won’t sting as much, and HB8s, 9s, and 10s are less antagonistic than 6s and 7s, the latter’s shitty attitudes effected in no small part by the greater number of low value men hitting on them (because they think they have a chance).

No argument there. HOWEVER… based on what I’ve sometimes seen happen in the field with my struggling friends who skip past the dross and head straight to the frothy top-cream, there are some drawbacks to following the Hot Babe Immersion Therapy protocol that aren’t immediately apparent to classroom analysis.

Some negative feedback loops in the Hot Bab Immersion Therapy model:

  • a very inexperience man will find it exceedingly difficult to maintain state control in the interactive presence of a very beautiful woman.

You can lead a beta to a beauty, but you can’t force the beta to talk to her without loading his pants. Shock and awe may be a lethal military strategy, but in the sexual market it’s usually the beta male standing there shocked and awed into stupefaction by a dazzling beauty. For a beta like this, it’s simply a better strategy to overcome tingle-killing social awkwardness with practice on girls who don’t fry his brain, and then move on to hotter women as his state control skill improves.

  • hitting on the hottest babes is sometimes used by goofy betas as a cheat code for avoiding putting real effort into the seduction.

There’s a temptation among some of the more extroverted betas to unseriously hit on hot babes, and then take their blue ball home and claim victory. If this beta had instead hit on a less outrageously alien prospect like a plain jane, it would be harder for him to rationalize potential rejection as a “waddaya expect?” ego assuaging ploy. Unlike the afterglow of a happy post-HB9 perp walk that he would enjoy, he won’t be able to walk away empty-handed from an HB6 without feeling a little bit like a failure. And that’s what will spur him to make the necessary changes.

  • there’s a risk that the beta confuses friendly but asexual politeness from a hot babe for seduction progress.

This paradox was noted above. The hot babe will often be a more pleasant prospect to talk to at first because she won’t have as many bitch shields deployed as will the lesser women who must bat away the entreaties of all sorts of loser men. The very UNAPPROACHABLE HOTNESS of the hot babe protects her from unwanted beta and omega male solicitations. This is great for padawan betas who want practice chit chatting with hot babes, but there’s an insidious undertow: that hot babe’s affability is also likely to be misconstrued by novice casanovas lacking the acumen to distinguish sexually intrigued IOIs from polite friendliness. The risk of this happening with plain janes is obviously lower, because any attention from these mediocre girls that falls short of massaging your crotch bulge isn’t likely to stimulate overeager appraisals of reciprocated romantic interest.

  • hot babes are often nice babes, and that’s not necessarily a good thing for the novice seducer.

A hot babe hasn’t cultivated an air of nastiness or defensiveness like her more attainable sisters, so she’ll have a harder time turning up the volume on turning down a no-game-having, insistent beta male. The hot babe’s false acceptance of the socially clumsy beta can lead him to commit all sorts of cringing faux pas as he begins to believe he really has a shot with her. When she does snap and lower the boom, it will hit him like a ton of bricks, because he wasn’t expecting it. In the meantime, he will have learned nothing and his seduction skill will not have made any improvement. In contrast, the beta male can expect more shit tests, teasing, aggressiveness, qualifying, and token resistance from plain janes. Surmounting these common female obstacles will do more to hone his pickup skill than polite head-nodding from super nice hot babes.

  • hot babes almost ALWAYS have men in their lives. Plain janes often don’t. The rookie rogerer has, all else equal, a better crack at unclaimed crack.

The goal is sex, and sometimes even love. You can practice on hot babes and watch their faces glow with curiosity, but if they are taken that’s just one extra hurdle (a tall one) that you’ll have to jump if a bedroom finishing move is more than just an abstraction in your head. Getting ACTUAL NOTCHES under your belt will go a long way to boosting your confidence major, and as long as you don’t dip below some female attractiveness threshold that matters to you, then a sweaty night with an HB7 will pay more psychological dividends than a sexless night chatting up an HB9 for an hour. Now, this doesn’t mean you have to stay at that middling level; it means only that it helps to get to SOME level if you want to advance to higher levels.


Despite everything I’ve just written about the benefits to remedial lotharios of practicing on plain janes, I say there is room on the practice pitch for spectacular, high risk shots on goal. My advice is to mix it up. Hit on the plain janes and the hot babes. The honest feedback from the former will rapidly improve your game, while the effort spent on the latter will slowly inure you to their intoxicating beauty. Until, one day, the exquisite beauties become your daily bread.

And, in the meantime, a bonus: when the plainer girls see you flirting with the hot babes, they’ll be a LOT more receptive to your company when you decide to give them a chance. There’s nothing better than a fully lubed seduction.


  1. Why cant the answer be Talk to ALL girls that pass the boner test. If you are at a bar it is not like you are only allowed to talk to one girl before you are asked to leave.

    The point of emphasis should be on smoothly escalating and within 15 minutes you will know whether or not the girl will be saying Well, it was nice to meet you.

    Also, it might be wise to stress the different kind of hot babes; a barbie with a lot of makeup and showing massive cleavage who is surrounded by 4 barbie clones is more likely to automatically reject the Fake-it-til-you-make-it men

    [CH: i’ve seen no evidence for this. (in fact, just the opposite.)]

    who are reading this compared to a cute girl reading a book by herself.


    • @ch What are your thoughts on dropping the I have a gf line early in a conversation?

      i.e. Yea my girlfriend likes those gay girly drinks too.


    • on September 22, 2015 at 3:43 pm Captain Obvious

      The big problem nowadays is going to involve Rumsfeld’s “known unknowns” – you don’t know beforehand how you should have opened, you only learn it afterwards. The degree of jerkitude and @ssh0eishness required to successfully open and escalate varies directly as does the degree to which The Darkness has permeated her heart. If you’re too nice to a thoroughly Dark chick, then the Hamster immediately writes you off as Beta, whereas if you’re too cruel to e.g. an Amish chick or a homeschooled girl, then her Dad might come after you with a shotgun.


      • Yes but amish chicks do not usually wear low cut t-shirts or go to ladies night and slutty girls usually dont roll out to a bar with no makeup while wearing a sweater


      • on September 22, 2015 at 3:52 pm Captain Obvious

        You simply have to learn the telltale signs of the Darkness from afar, before you open. Part of that is theory, with which we can help one another, but part of it is necessarily going to be empirical [on an individual basis] and learned through your own experience. Theoretically: Tats, any metal in her face other than traditional earrings in her earlobes [even just ear piercings in the wrong part of her ear], attention wh0ring in public, obvious self-absorption, complete iPhag addiction, professional certification and a sense of Nurse Ratched about her – any one of those means: GO NEGATIVE EARLY AND HARD. But part of it will be personal experience with these c*nts, and judging when to turn up the heat on the negativity, and when to back off.


      • >> to e.g. an Amish chick

        they get fairly dolled up at specified moments. PS: Gulf Arab young chicks do as well. VERY VERY dolled up, and figure-disclosing. Not skin-revealing, but figure-revealing. Good amounts of skin at the cleavage. Arabs like full-figured women. PPS: actual entirely-parent-arranged marriages are quite rare nowadays in the middle classes of the Gulf . What is arranged, is: the category of guys that the girl is allowed to mingle with. Lower economic classes may guide a girl into selecting one of the male cousins: keeps the family wealth in the family.

        >> or a homeschooled girl

        not a guarantee of parents’ “conservative” outlook. Not at all.


      • on September 22, 2015 at 7:33 pm Captain Obvious

        tb2, we got our wires crossed there in the stack, but we’re saying the same thing: Learn the meta-social clues of how she presents herself within her milieu – which will probably take tons of investigative elbow grease on your part – to the point that you can process [consciously or subconsciously] upwards of ten different clues which will give you a strong probability of choosing the correct degree of Negativity for your opening remarks. But always be prepared to improvise, turn on a dime, recalibrate [all within a few tenths of a second] and go even harder Negative if necessary.


    • lzozolzlozlzozolzozozlzozozo



    • Why cant the answer be Talk to ALL girls that pass the boner test.

      True. If she has a cute face and a nice body, I’m in. (In fact, I have a bias toward bodies over faces, whereas betas with oneitis seem to be face men.) This strategy also helps keep oneitis away. Going after all girls of 7 or above is definitely better than just 9s and 10s, because of this oneitis factor.

      Plus, to overcome the fear of rejection, you have to be rejected a few times. Remember, that in the woman’s mind, rejection is for men and orbiting her is for boys.


      • Yeah I think focusing more on the face is a bit of a subconscious romantic beta habit. Nowadays, I’m much more concerned with a nice body than a cute face. In the past, I found myself mostly noticing / talking to / hooking up with girls who were chubby but had cute faces… so I did some introspection on it. I think it’s partly an unconscious desire for a long lasting romance, because the girl could always get fitter and her face is already cute, so you think “physically there’s LTR potential here.” Whereas for the girl with the nice body but a busted or plain face, she is kind of ruled out physically as LTR potential, because her face won’t be improving. With the butterface or plain faced girl you know this will be a short-term thing focused on sex, not romance.


  2. Start by gaming every woman you meet. Make her day. There’s a socially acceptable way to game any woman, from 14 to 84.


    • “life’s just a cocktail party on the street” – Rolling Stones, Shattered

      Learn to live in STATE as much as possible…


    • on September 22, 2015 at 3:57 pm Captain Obvious

      > “a socially acceptable way to game” ——— Whew, if so, it’s disappearing fast. The Darkness is everywhere now. And it does NOT respond to “socially acceptable” – if It even notices “socially acceptable”, then it would be so as to dismiss it as “creepy”.


  3. Mistral Sez: Swing for the Gawddam Fences!

    Pro Tip: Very often, due to beta lack of confidence, hotties do not get approached as much and can be more receptive as a result.* I make my living off of that.


    *Offer does not apply to grody neckbeards.


    • Hotties get approached a lot if not more especially in big urban areas – visit say NYC, LA, Chicago, Boston, London or Miami and you will see hotties getting hit on all the time

      [CH: i can’t be bothered atm, but if you search the archives there’s a post about a study which found that hotties do NOT get cold approached as much as plainer girls.]


      • and not all urban areas are equal in male balls. I’m in NYC, I dated one girl fresh from San Fran who says she was never once street-approached there in 3 years, but in NYC it happens at least twice a week. I got her right when she moved here, she said I was the first guy to approach her in years, one can only assume that added to my appeal.


      • Note that I said “Very often” and not “always”. Oh, and I have lived in NYC, Boston & London, so I already know, thanks…as it turns out, not everyone lives there. Just sayin’.


      • Yep, CH. I’m of the opinion that 6’s get hit on the most. And are most likely to launch nuclear rejections to poor young saps. I was on the receiving end of some back in the day.

        True story – about 30 years ago, my ex had a good friend who was unbelievably stunning; she was once a model for a Black Velvet vodka billboard; blonde, wide-set blue eyes, remarkable smile. A smart, educated girl, her day job was as a chemist in flyover country, likely working with mostly beta and omega-ish nerds. She had a naturally cold, unapproachable look about her. She once confided to my wife that she had recently gone a full twelve months without being asked out for a date.

        [CH: i have stories like this as well. really hot babes simply don’t get approached as often as betas (who never approach them) imagine they do.
        yes, hot babes get way more head swivels and leers than plainer girls, but also way fewer cold approaches. as i explained in the earlier post discussing this topic, girls don’t register leers from men with the same impact as cold approaches. and that’s why plainer girls who get actively hit on more often have bigger bitch shields than boner fried hotties.]


  4. What about John Nash “Game Theory Game?” Hit on the second best looking girl in the place.


  5. on September 22, 2015 at 1:32 pm Kevin The Troll

    9’s and 10’s always have a man in their life unless they have something wrong with them or just choose not too. In addition it is a totals myth that they are hit on less. Total myth.

    I have worked with a lot of these women in the advertising industry for years and personalky never had any success in gaming them but I did approach them and tried. I would go out with these women to bars, work parties, ect and the were hit on left and right. Some used to dress down so they were not “targets.” Most were very picky. They know they are and use their beauty to get what they want. If one does not have money or looks for these women- no amount of “game” will work.

    [CH: game is charisma. chicks dig charismatic men. so yes game will work on the hottest babes.
    we’ve been through all this before. you’re an obvious troll. don’t think for a minute i’m gonna allow you to shit on this board with the same old same old loser talk.]


    • “If one does not have money or looks for these women- no amount of “game” will work.”

      Bullshit. Don’t buy it.


    • I agree, I have seen an actual 10 before and what it does to people in her vicinity. The first myth is that there are many 9s and 10s when in fact there are not and the second myth is that they don’t get hit on. I have seen a 10 whip a room into a frenzy, all the eyes were on her, men were tripping over themselves to take a chance on her, people were coming up with any excuse they could to talk to her. She was given a bunch of free drinks in a very short period of time. The terrible odds don’t mean they have a bad attitude though as was rightly pointed out.


    • Sure, they get hit on a lot, but betas will DQ themselves with the hotties extremely quickly, which cuts out a lot of the competition. And they DQ themselves in many large and small ways, including subtle and subconscious ones, that you wouldn’t even realize. Even many of the alphas come off as too aggressive or try-hard and get blown out.

      What they want are men who can talk to them perfectly normally, yet subtly and sexually flirt with them in a manner that suggests they aren’t even trying.


  6. The other question is why would a hot chick want to hook up with a guy like this who has very little experience or even a lot of experience and does not have what I call the big three – money, looks (height is part of this) and or status?

    [CH: women are not attracted directly to money. the money is a proxy for an alpha personality. and that can be learned, improved upon, and called upon when needed. in fact, i’d put social status and charisma above money and looks as male characteristics which are attractive to women.]

    What would she gain out of some guy just “gaming” her?

    [a feelgood time.]

    Because he’s funny?

    [chicks dig the funny.]

    Because he is smart?

    [smarts can be leveraged into wit and social acumen.]

    When was the last time you really saw a hot woman want to date a guy because he is just smart without looks and money? I have never seen it

    [sounds like you don’t get out much. i’ve seen plenty of hot babes want to be with men who weren’t handsome or wealthy because those men have something that you don’t: a POWERFUL, SELF CONFIDENT, ZERO FUCKS GIVEN attitude.]


    • we need to talk about Kevin…


    • Because he turns her on, I suppose. YaReally will probably tell you a lot about it.


    • The general game answer to your question would be something like “because he makes her feel good”. But if she’s on the top shelf, it seems in practice her upside is articles like this one:

      Hey, is that guy YaReally?


    • There are a lot of chics who like to slum. There are chics who want to have fun. There is overlap. Don’t succumb to your defeatist ‘big three’ theory. Get more experience. Having one or all of your ‘big three’ doesn’t hurt though. Cheers


      • on September 22, 2015 at 4:02 pm Captain Obvious

        > “very little experience” ||||| > “chics who like to slum” ||||| You can always try flying under their radar and going with shy vulnerable innocent “40 Year Old Virgin” Game. Act like a complete rube, fresh off the bus from Hicksville out in the middle of nowhere. Just don’t be Beta about it.


      • Are you still in your 20s Shane?


    • Of course extraordinary women will want extraordinary men. That goes without saying. The key is to find something about yourself that is extraordinary and exploit it.


    • on September 22, 2015 at 4:24 pm The Other Anonymous

      I’m smarter than you, I’m richer than you, I’m better looking and funnier – but while you’re asking yourself these demotavating questions – I’ve already approached her – and that, more than anything, is why my odds are better.

      [CH: COTW contenda.]


    • CH is definitely right about money. I’ve always had my most success with women when I was unemployed (or nearly so) and broke as shit. The result is, that essentially, they pay you to hang around; meals and clothing, usually shirts, in my experience. I’m assuming that’s because shirts are easier off-the-rack.


      • Dated a 22 year-old former model turned drug rep back when I was unemployed – they have access to all kinds of nice prizes if they hit certain benchmarks. In addition to the aforementioned clothes and meals, I also got a $500 keyboard and a trip to Cabo out of it.


      • I love the line about the keyboard. Does it type for you?


      • I also wasn’t suggesting that you only get those two things. I’ve gotten video games and movies and all sorts of stuff. But shirts seem to be a recurring theme.


  7. Classic CH! Going back to his roots, if only for a day…….


  8. Gaming Plain Janes has another drawback: betas are lazy.

    Therefore, they will eventually find success with a PJ and never move above their comfort level. They will then live their lives with a PJ wishing forever that they had a hot wife.


    • that’s gonna leave a mark for a lot of people, even if it’s a couple years, you can’t get ’em back


    • on September 22, 2015 at 2:44 pm Flashing Lights

      This right here. When I was in college and first exposed to this site, I decided to try my new game knowledge on some plain Janes, planning to move up to the hotter girls on the edge of my social circle.

      Welp, turns out I kinda fell for a plain Jane (who become my first real girlfriend) and took me two years to work through before breaking up (good LTR game practice though). Never made it up to the girls I preferred deep down.

      Now I only go after the hottest girl in the room, the hottest friend, hottest acquaintance, etc. If we don’t hit it off, no regrets. If we DO hit it off, still no regrets.


  9. every girl, everywhere, even if the only time you have is to disagree with her a second or demand something extra of her. demystify them. i know, not easy for a lot of us

    plain janes do have the advantage of being in abundance, and i think the more interactions the better. if you see the hot babes, you do need to work on them and get them off their pedestal in your mind


  10. You asked me if the Irish/Greek woman I fucked is fat. No she is not. She’s 22, slim, B tits, and an okay ass. I’m not crazy about blue eyes, but she has that too.

    I find it fascinating that white men don’t take part in racist roleplay. All that schoolgirl/teacher/preist/nun/doctor/nurse roleplay is not as fun because it is not real. But racist roleplay is real in a sense because her dad would kill me if he knew what I was doing to his daughter. It’s a massive turn on knowing that 50 years ago I could be hanged for put my dick in her. Having her call me “nigger” just amplifies my arousal. But like I said, she wouldn’t.

    Funny things is, before she hits the wall she will marry a boring Beta white guy that she will cheat on. Maybe when she has kids it will be her husband’s kids, maybe it won’t. Either he will have to pay child support if he leaves. Why do you white MEN fight so hard to produce white children in a country that hates you and will hate your white sons? Before I’m 30, I plan on leaving the United States. There is no “going back” in this country. Plenty of other countries out there.


  11. I think most guys who are thinking HB 9+ are tougher to game. Are thinking like it’s still High School.

    A big pretty fish in a small pool can think shes awesome until she’s moved to the ocean of real life. All of the pretty girls I knew back in the day complained about how much attention they lost by graduating HS.

    Plenty of girls can be gamed all across the attractiveness spectrum. If you think of it like this…. You can be ANYONE to a girl you casually meet. All she sees is how you act and how you look.

    Life is too short to date ugly girls.


    • Yeah I can see the HS element but for many of these women they still are as tough or tougher to date. Hot women know they are hot and use that currency of beauty for as long as they can ride it. HS continues in life….


    • Protip: in HS, you have only young chicks. Out of it, they get to “compete” with middle aged women. If anything, it should be easier in the real world.


    • Lots of chics reach peak attractiveness in HS.


      • on September 22, 2015 at 4:06 pm Captain Obvious

        You should see them at the reunions. It’s shocking how quickly an HB8+ can balloon up to Warpig status after graduation. I knew an HB9.95 in junior high school, whom I crossed paths with in a local bar, either late in college or early in grad school, who was suddenly all over me like white on rice, only she weighed twice as much as she had in junior high, and she was now an HB6 and fading fast.


  12. Open sets on any chick who is at least moderately attractive.


  13. If you get rejected, there’s no shame in getting rejected by a 10. Happens to the best of us.

    This is a good point. When I was in my late teens, before I had even scored for the first time, I got a bad case of oneitis for a 5. I was friends-zoned and strung along by this bitch for a couple of years and all I can say is “ouch.” It fucked me up in the head and gave me self esteem problems to this very day. Her being only a 5 led me to believe I was totally worthless. I mean, if I can’t even land a 5 then what hope is there? But if she was a knockout, it would have hurt much less than it did.


  14. Nothing to say here except thanks for answering my question with such a useful analysis. I’ll recalibrate and attenuate my gung-ho “fuck it” pedagoguery with the cousins.


  15. Ballroom/Salsa dance lessons are great practice to maintain state control.


  16. Here’s my vaguely recent perspective:
    that of a guy who had good game back in the day, then got married and faithful for a long time, then broke up and wanted to get back into it.
    By 10’s CH means hot women in the 18-24 range. When you hit on them, among other hurdles you are very likely to encounter LMR.
    On the other hand, if you start off with women who are still much younger than you, but not that much younger, then you can fairly rapidly get your dick wet and gain some confidence by having one or two babes in your stable. LMR is much less of a problem with women in their 30’s.
    Once you know where your next lay is coming from, you can go younger. And should, especially if you aren’t looking to get remarried, because the young hot ones are definitely attainable and will definitely give you a charge, and they won’t have much interest in marriage.


  17. There’s another issue, which is that it’s harder to get your reps in with 9s and 10s, simply because there aren’t as many of them around. Unless you travel in unusual social circles, most venues won’t have lots of girls at that level, whereas there are likely to be plenty of 6s and 7s nearly anywhere that draws from a 20s/30s demographic. During the day, the 9s and 10s you encounter will likely be more open to conversation, but again unless you’re in an unusual location such hotties are few and far between.


    • Social circle game. Are there free-range 10s out there or are they always in a pack? Some would say that’s why we build frats and other structures to farms these gazelles, September pledge rush parties notwithstanding. GLL had a post on this, if you live in LA, forget it…if you wear khakis to work, you’re never getting it in.


  18. You can go to a site like thechiveDotcom where they have posts with, say, 50 hot chicks in their best dress giving F-me eyes to the camera. Even at work, under your breath, you can do virtual approaches in your mind with each photo as you scroll down the page. Fun practice that gets me in state and pumped up to see hot chicks on Friday’s before happy hour. So, when I do get to the bar, I’ve already said hi and thought of a neg and/or funny thing to say to 50 hot girls before I went out, so it’s easier. Each photo has a hit chick with a different look and personality too, so I try to match how I’d open to each personality, “Hey” vs “hello there,” vs “what’s up” vs. “Sup girl.” etc. It’s called GAME after all.


    • on September 22, 2015 at 7:38 pm Captain Obvious

      And Practice makes Perfect.


      • on September 26, 2015 at 6:07 am Experienced Father

        “And Practice makes Perfect.”

        No, Practice does not make _Perfect_.

        Practice makes PERMANENT.

        You have to practice the right things, the right way.

        This is why it is so hard for a Beta personality to become an Alpha one.

        Beta’s have practiced the wrong behaviors with women all their lives so that they have to unmake their old selves to become that charismatic Alpha of their dreams.

        Overcoming that requires practice..YES.

        But you have to practice game — or anything else — with the idea of attaining small goals on a path to the larger goal of changing yourself.


  19. Has it ever been discussed on here about initially playing hot and cold with a girl? I probably shouldn’t say this but that drives girls nuts and makes them wonder “hmm why isn’t he interested anymore?” Girls work off emotions, as you know, and gives them a bit of a rise even if they’re not always pleasant. You’re making them feel.


    • I do this at work. Some days I’ll chat up the girl, other days, I won’t even say hi. Not a job I care much for anyways, but I figured something was up along what you wrote so I decided to test it out.


    • on September 22, 2015 at 4:13 pm Captain Obvious

      Vicky, you’re talking Day Game, when there’s time to get to know a chick in real life. These guys are mostly talking about Night Game, when you have 5 seconds to grab her attention, 30 seconds to get your tentacles in, and five to fifteen minutes before you need to be achieving tongue action in the back alley. The closest anyone has gotten to “Hot/Cold” would be YaReally’s misdirectionalism [where’s he’s constantly layering “Look, Squirrel!” feints at the bee-yotch in heat, layer upon layer upon layer].


      • Captain, lol that made me laugh. Thanks. Yeah sorry, I should stick to the political posts on here. You guys got this.


      • Day game definitely has a place. I’m constantly amused at my day game because I go out to remote locations (different ones) every day to fix issues. I get chatted up by all sorts of women at these locations because I lead off with my name, employer and reason for presence. And then ignore them entirely. There’s just something about a woman losing a man’s undivided attention that drives them nuts.

        This past Friday, I was onsite for an hour doing my thing. And the cashier working next to me was looking me over; soon as I got finished and got ready to leave, she started trying to chat me up. Asking about the job and stuff. She was pushing 40 and walling and wanted validation. But I’m a jerk… and not into older women.


      • on September 23, 2015 at 9:00 pm Obviously Cap'n

        JironGhrad – BUY THIS DVD – it reminds me of what you’re doing every day:


  20. on September 22, 2015 at 3:31 pm The Spirit Within

    Just tell the newb to look for IOIs. That will yield better results than spraying negs like grapeshot, and it’ll build his confidence post-lay provided he doesn’t fuck up the seduction process.

    Later, the newb can make hisown decisions about hotties. You’ve got to have impeccably fluid state control to pass muster with an HB9, and that mostly comes with experience.

    Positive feedback loop for the win.


  21. I love watching Vitaly. Some of his stuff is really hysterical and matches my glibness when I am dialed up to 11… Was at a charity fund raiser recently at a street fair, manning a refreshment booth with a 28 YO 6 and 3 older guys (50+). Things are slow so I put some Vitaly “Hand of God” to use… Like this..

    I start pointing to women 10 – 70 feet away and motioning them to come to the table. It was pretty hysterical. First – 95% of them came over and zero percent of them – listen up Kevin – gave any unpleasant response at all. The vast majority smiled, laughed and came all the way over.

    No matter if they were with a guy or not… The few that didn’t just smiled or waved and shook there head no and kept walking.

    I would just point to them, nod and gesture, could be a come hither with the finger, or a full palm over, and then I got creative as well – nodding and pulling hand over hand like on a rope or pulling back and reeling in like on a fishing pole… Giggles, curious sly smiles, “what me’s”… but 95% of them, maybe 50 women of all ages (I targeted the 6’s and up) step foot in front of foot all the way up to the booth… on command. with husbands, boyfriends etc in tow if they had any, with their girls around them… all caught in the power of a simple direct non verbal gesture.

    Was really eye opening.

    Now when they got up to the booth, I couldn’t run real game on them because I was surrounded by people who know me and wife, but damn, there was great banter, frivolity, teasing and a few of these girls went off completely crestfallen after I dismissed them to tend to the line. and lot’s of sales were made LOL.

    Now the 28 YO with me (she had a 7 face but a little hippy) as I expected, responds well to this display. I start also commanding her to do little things for me, count the money, refill inventory, walk around and drum up business – all in a teasing but direct way. She is lapping it up though. In the small space, kino is incidental and becomes more frequent – arm, lower back, waist as we are moving around the booth… Hit her with some laser eye, close proximity and direct questions on what she got up to last night. Good stuff.

    The older dudes – well they are a bunch of WK beta guys – but no doubt I am a legend to them “crazy”… they got to leer and mumble quietly “did you see that one!!!!” and occasionally stammer something out – picking up on my teasing but ham handed, cringe worthy stuff.

    And I really understood why women don’t like beta K’s – because they are disingenuous liars… all of them WANTED to fuck these women, none of them wanted to acknowledge it and you could see the women… whereas I was fairly sexual – even in an indirect way – and they were responsive to different degrees…


    • There exists a porn of this ‘vitaly’ in the back of a minivan and a chic working on him. Maybe he had stage fright, but it wasn’t working out for him. I thought everyone here knew about the vid. Cheers


      • John – maybe so, who cares… if you have been around a lot of girls, it’s happened for one reason or another… Oh well right? The guy still cracks me up anyway.

        The point about the Vitaly stuff though – or anything else PUA – is observe, learn, test yourself, take what works, understand why it worked, build upon it…

        Like here is Vitaly doing quick make out stuff… is it staged? I don’t think so, compiled yeah (he no doubt was shot down on attempts), but if you have been able to make out with girls with in 10 minutes of meeting them, why NOT 1 minute? Look at his posture, body language, frame and laser eye, look how he reads her reactions and then ACTS… all look very good. This I can say from experience is very real.

        The three questions also conform to game experience:

        Do you have a boyfriend? – self selecting, avoids ASD, subliminally reminds her she is single.

        Do you find me attractive? – sexualizes the conversation… this is where he is reading her eyes, lips and subcomms while projecting his own sexualized vibe and subcomms back to her. Her answer of basically yes – anchor affirmation in her mind – he is attractive to her.

        What would be your excuse not to kiss me? – again sexualizes, convoluted nature of question freezes her fore brain logic (what little there is) and comes off as a command despite the “not” – her hind brain hears “kiss me” and her hind brain feels his sexual subcomm attraction triggers…

        and then he doesn’t wait for an answer but acts. As you know, once a girl is kissing you it’s pretty hard for her to stop. Like she may not do it again a second time but they all seem to kiss for a little while that first time. Just biology.

        so in any event these are good references to keep in mind when you are out and get one on one.

        Now here is Sasha, who was skeptical of this same Vitaly video. so he goes out and tries it on like 8 girls… and guess what he ends up making out with one. despite the fact his body language, subcomms, tonality are much worse (IMO) AND he is mostly hitting on girls with their friends next to them (higher ASD)…

        So Sasha saw something, TRIED IT and found it did work. We can all do the same is the point. You WILL be surprised by what works, then that success informs and reinforces your future efforts. This is the path towards mastery.

        Have fun!


      • Mods? Are you there?


      • Sentient that’s fascinating. I’d seen the Vitalyzd kissing video of course, but not Sasha’s recreation. It’s amazing how much difference that body language/voice/laser eyes and intent makes to the result. Sasha’s not as good looking as Vitaly, but he’s definitely above average too

        (To be fair though – we know how many times Sasha tried it and how much success – but we don’t know how many times Vitaly had to fail to get that many successes on video)


      • @Sentient
        I didn’t say it didn’t work, nor did I just imply the car vid was fake. I don’t care either way. I was merely pointing out that this guy does other things that are documented attempts at a type of extroversion. He’s not just a guy who suddenly decided to rent an exotic car and try this shit. I mentioned his downfall in the back of the minivan to show another side. I’m not going to make any public sex videos, nor do I believe most men here would, but attempting the exotic car thing could be a fun experiment. Also, I’m not interested in chics that do porn. Fine to watch, but not my type. Cheers


    • Sentient dude – how did you get that post past mod?

      I’ve done the gesturing thing a bit in clubs (back in the day), but it’s definitely something to practice more. Only (esp in clubs) it looks really awkward if you get ignored and you lose value (not so much if they respond and laugh but don’t come over – more when you get totally blanked).


  22. use deangelo


  23. CH, it seems like the biggest crux to the “you might not notice IOI’s or signs of rejection from a refined girl” argument for not approaching babes is fixed by training. You and many others have had some good material on IOI’s and signs of rejection (which are far more hardwired and predictable than Special Snowflakes ™) want to admit.

    I think a refresher course on IOI’s or a compendium of good material for cads in training would be a good near-future piece with frequent refreshers.

    I have found that the biggest mistake I make is not being careful to look for IOI’s – real IOI’s – and taking my cues from them. I need a constant refresher on it like a fighter pilot needs seat time.

    I think a discussion of beginner game needs to focus on two different categories of approaches. The first is where she’s already into you by giving you an IOI across the room. Nearly every dude north of Joe Biden has SOME girls that will find him at least somewhat interesting…..look for who is interested in you and start with her (or them). The simple stare and hold is the easiest. Two in a row and you’re in the pocket, go and approach knowing she’s already interested. Let it simmer too long and she’ll get bored. Move on. You won’t negotiate it back. Once you’ve opened the already-interested girl, its game on and just keep meeting IOI for IOI.

    I think that’s a radically easier and simpler game than “how do I get a girl interested who is not interested?” That’s your more advanced game.

    I read a fantastic book a while back about IOI’s written by a woman, but the title is escaping me. I might have run across it here at the Chateau….the theory was a bit BP, but the advice on how women betray interest was rock solid.


    • I think a refresher course on IOI’s or a compendium of good material for cads in training would be a good near-future piece with frequent refreshers.

      The best IOIs are, of course, the automatic, subconscious ones:
      1) Lighting up like a lamp when she looks at you, with sparkly eyes and an involuntary smile,
      2) Exposing her figure to your view,
      3) Getting rather downcast, irritated, and distressed when you leave (most likely to happen when there’s no guarantee she’ll see you again).

      The big indicators of disinterest, of course, are a complete lack of these IOIs despite her knowing who you are and that you’re there.


      • on September 22, 2015 at 8:23 pm Diversity Is Good

        The best IOIs are, of course, the automatic, subconscious ones:

        1, 2, & 3 all good, 4: Twirling her hair, if it’s long enough. Hair twirling can be a very reliable IOI.


  24. Regarding the “Bonus”: What about the 10s that see you gaming 6s and 7s? Doesn’t that lower your status?

    [CH: good question. there’s a lower bound of female attractiveness that will actually work against a man’s perceived value (through the preselection mechanism). so, if a 10 sees you successfully flirting with a chubby 4, the 10 will think less of you than she would if you were alone. but i think the difference has to be stark. preselection operates even when the women being used as pivots are less attractive than your main target. a 10 will still be more intrigued by you whether the other women in your company are also 10s or they are cute 7s.]


    • It’s not as big a difference 7 vs 10 in a 10’s eyes because her solipsism is telling her SHE should be commanding all the attention, activate competition protocol! She will figure out what to do with you later. Job 1 is beating the other bitches to seed.


  25. First of all, you gotta know where your SMV stands. Not the CH-test version, since a good half of that test doesn’t come across until after attraction is built, I’m talking about your looks, your style, your body language, preselection, and out-the-gates wit and charm.

    If you’re visibly a high-value dude, negging a plain girl too hard or acting too much like a dick will kill the seduction where it will make a prettier girl’s labia open like a flower.

    When I laid 8’s and 9’s my game was firing on all cylinders; remembering them is like rewatching a fight tape where you knocked the other guy out without taking a punch. It makes your chest swell just thinking about it.

    When I brought that same game at 6’s and 7’s we would end up in a hostile interaction, or I would get used no further than a makeout (sex for her ego), since she was afraid she’d get pumped and dumped by a cooler dude looking for an easy lay (and she was right).

    For a long time I didn’t realize that and thought I was losing my mojo whenever I came on to these bitches.

    Now I treat every girl 7 or below like a little sister. Being affectionate, playful, and dominant gets you farther with girls under your SMV, while being an aloof jerkboy (and still dominant) is crack for hotter chicks.

    A male 5, say the average beta learning game, has to be a bit of an aloof dick to get 6’s. SMV-tailored game isn’t absolute, it’s relative to you, which requires honest introspection and self-evaluation.


    • Good post. The 7 is the hard one. She could be a sweet nice girl or a raging spoiled cunt. Usually now start nicer and can flip harder as scene unfolds, easier to calibrate going nice to hard than vice versa.


  26. 2014 was my peak year for game. I’d just broken up with the HB8 and was at loose ends. I hit OKC and was out meeting anyone who was a 6 or above. The results were positive. I was finally targeting girls under 30 (ex is 37) and with each successive bang, my targets moved up to an average of 7 or above.

    By this year, my confidence had improved, the girls were all under 30 apart from one 32 who is still HB7. I was also meeting girls in real life, hitting them up at parties, gaming them number closing and then escalating in a Day 2.

    I also started practicing game everywhere and on every female. I’d be opening the coffee shop girl, the flight attendant, the duty free shop girl etc. Usually those were openers and negs, teases, holding eye contact. These hired help interactions were perfect because I could practice openings or negs and then know I had to move on because the interaction was temporary and because the hired help no matter how hot was always responsive and nice.

    Set modest goals, start opening, measure progress, continue.


    • Great final line. I need to be more consistent. Some days I’m on, other days I don’t even want to bother. Gotta work on those days.


      • I usually need a break after 2-3 days of approaching to recharge. So long as you’re consistent, taking a breath isn’t a big deal.


      • on September 22, 2015 at 5:33 pm Captain Obvious

        MT, all that art-history-major billionaire-trust-fund-baby p00ntang at The Huntington is just waiting for you…


      • on September 22, 2015 at 5:37 pm Captain Obvious

        Press Release – Charles Bukowski’s Literary Archive Comes to The Huntington


      • Cappy, just now, I chilling out in the patio at our work complex and saw a young plain jane who took a seat within viewing distance. I saw that she had a I love Hillary pol sticker on her laptop and given CH’s latest advice about hitting these kinds of chicks up, if she wasn’t so plain, I might have.

        Even still, I was thinking of just giving her shit about the sticker, but I’ve been having such a good day.


      • on September 23, 2015 at 8:51 pm Obviously Cap'n

        C’mon, man, just walk up to her and say: “So whaddya think the FBI is gonna find on Hillary’s email server? … blah blah blah … Listen, whaddya think about these rumors that Hillary and that Huma Abedin chick are doing the nasty together? … blah blah blah … You ever messed around with another chick yourself? … blah blah blah …”


  27. on September 22, 2015 at 5:11 pm The Straw That Stirs the Drink

    CO – you will like this… great mind game “dog whistle” politics stuff… from TRUMP’s latest campaign update, the final pick

    Who is the other guy? Could it be the fella who is throwing people out and whacking them>>>???


    • on September 22, 2015 at 6:18 pm The Straw That Stirs the Drink

      Gotta love the TRUMP plainspeak

      “I am not surprised the dishonest, irrelevant and totally failing Club for Growth has resorted to attacking the definitive front runner, especially after I refused to contribute to their pathetic group,” Trump said in a statement. “We will be releasing my current tax proposal, which is a major decrease in taxes, in the next week and will continue to expose the two faced hypocrisy of the Club for Growth and the problems groups like this perpetuate within a broken Washington, D.C.”

      [CH: my love for trump grows like a flower in the sun. *swoon*.
      ps no homo.]


    • The other guy is Mike Glassner, Trump’s campaign manager. From Iowa. I actually know him and have worked with him. Years ago.


  28. Works the other way, too. My sis-in-law had a cute friend (well, cute until she continued to add significant pounds every time I saw her) and she walked up a “gorgeous” guy in a restaurant and told him he was sexy. She acted like she’d accomplished something.

    But she never had a chance with him and all she did was make him feel awkward.

    Women are shameless and will use reflected glory to make themselves feel better,like a loser at Hooters.


  29. […] Source: Should Struggling Seducers Practice On Hot Babes Or Plain Janes? | Chateau Heartiste […]


  30. Go for the best looking woman who is going to be faithful, keep the house in order, and give you nice white babies. Forget the rest.


    • on September 22, 2015 at 7:36 pm Captain Obvious

      That’s a man after my own heart right there.


    • “Forget the rest”

      I started looking at male promiscuity completely differently after giving some thought to the emergent science of cellular contamination of your future children via prior intercourse with non-virgin women.

      There is indeed a reason why K-selected cultures also counsel male premarital chastity.


  31. When I was just a young sprout, new to the game and blinking my eyes to adjust to the Darkness — I followed my instincts.
    Approach them all, all day, every day.


  32. If you’re trying to get him to over come his approach anxiety – I would suggest that he approach the hottest women, but just to chat with them, nothing more. Just learn that they don’t bite, they won’t scream at him, they are like everyone else. Once he overcomes his approach anxiety, he can start to worry about getting more from them, but everything flows from being able to talk to them naturally without any stress or worries. That only comes with practice and it’s not something he can learn, unless he does it.


  33. Few of my observations, going exactly through that process, starting from absolute zero.

    * Boner test is the only thing which works for me. I’m just incapable of faking interest in a chick I don’t want to bang. And they feel it.
    * It’s strange, but most of the time my problem is the usual “What am I supposed to say?”, not depending on the looks of the girl. Just act like she’s your youger sister or a student — you don’t take them seriously.
    * Practice body language, walk with your chest and head up, learn how to stand still when girls are talking, keep laser EC when you’re the one talking. I practiced on strangers for two months and now I can keep the EC forever. Suddenly I started noticing all these looks I get on the street.
    * Confusing pleasant conversation with seduction happens. But some girls actually like the balls the guy shows approaching during the day and you can build something from a plain, friendly conversation. And a nice convo with a hottie boosts your attitude, go and talk to some HB7s straight after, you’re gonna slay it like a champ.


  34. Better looking than you are. By how much probably depends on your upbringing. Such as learning to swim.

    Were you allowed to wear armbands and swim widths?

    Or did you have a stern father to throw you in at the deep end from an early age only to be repeatedly rescued by lifeguards? Being made to confront death as a child(I know you were trying to kill me Dad)helps you out as a man.


  35. I’ve learned the hard way CH’s lesson. Just gaming 8,9, and 10s is a surefire way of being the clown. Sadly the only woman attracted to me are the creepy, older black kind (both male and female…shudder). Needless to say, I’ve stopped trying…


  36. Lately I’ve been finding that no women pass the boner test. All the women over about 25 are either fat or haggard and leathery; all the ones under 25 are phone-obsessed or have the blank, mindless gaze of a cow in a field.

    Any suggestions on how to make myself want them more?


    • Don’t give up on women mate. If the regular ones don’t cut it you’ve got shemales, Thai brides, prostitutes – all of god’s rich tapestry.

      Or how about a wank strike? Try not knocking one out for a month.


    • on September 23, 2015 at 10:04 am Captain Obvious

      > “all the ones under 25 are phone-obsessed or have the blank, mindless gaze of a cow in a field” ——— Setting aside the Eskimo Question, and to the extent that Shkotzim [rather than Eskimos] like Steve Jobs are largely responsible for what you’re talking about, what you’re talking about is the great epic “Game”-changing Black Swan Event of our lifetimes. Phone obsessed and blank mindless stare – IT’S EVERYWHERE NOW!!!!!


  37. I’ve found that approaching plain-janes and hot women is an entirely different ball game. Plain janes, on average, know they’re mediocre at best in the looks department and get far more insecure when you use the game you would use on a hot woman. This is especially true for the not quite 9-10 tier women too, the over-gaming you’ll use for a hot woman will faulter on a woman in the 6 – 8 range; sometimes. Keep in mind, this is subject to change, if the 8 perceives herself as a 9-10 through social validation, then your game for hot women will work, eventually once you game enough women you can usually tell instinctively which women view themselves this way, and etc.

    I only bring up this point because in my early days all the game techniques I learned were under-calibrated, and so I had trouble figuring out which women I could and should overgame and etc.

    I think for starters, the best route is just to speak to every type of woman until your instincts kick in towards which women believe their shit doesn’t stink.


  38. Plain Janes get hit on in a much cruder way which may explain why they have less patience with men.

    Yet it surely depends on the context whether men shy away from hot babes or not. I don’t see working class whites or non-whites avoiding hotties. It’s a mistake to project the traits of a spergy middle class environment onto men and women in general.


    • Or maybe even beyond middle class(upper middle class to Americans). I’ve only seen this extreme concentration of hipster and aspergers – which this blog is a reaction against – amongst the Jewish middle class. The rest of society is not this nerdy.


  39. Another excellent post from the almighty CH! This was/is especially helpful for a semi-newb like me (15 months RP) who finds themselves climbing the hot babe ladder. From 5’s & 6’s to now 7’s & 8’s. Aint had a 9 in yrs but the tools & advice CH & Rollo give provide much hope and inspiration. Many indebted thanks! Go Trump!


    • on September 23, 2015 at 9:14 pm Obviously Cap'n

      WTF is wrong with 7s & 8s? Sheesh. Like “Lex Corvus” is saying way above here, there just aren’t all that many 9s [Sports Illustrated Swimsuit caliber] chicks in the entire world, and there is no such thing as an absolutely Perfect 10 [on account of shiznat like pointy elbows and whatnot]. In many smaller towns – heck, in many smaller COUNTIES – an HB8 will be the hottest chick living there.


      • Indeed – 6 is a cute girl, 7s are the actual “OMG that girl is sooo hot” that you see at your local hangouts, 8’s are “Hollywood pretty” amazing faces and great bodies but tend to be off just a smidge, usually on the shorter side compared to 9s, 9’s and above IRL are nearly all the time making a living solely off of their looks.

        [CH: i would shift your scale up one point for accuracy. 7s are not OMG HOT level. that would be 8s and 9s. 7s are CUTE. sometimes PRETTY. but never OMG HOT, or they’d be 8s. and plenty of 9s are not in the looks business. (unless you count sales, HR, and event planning as looks businesses)]


      • On the 7 – meant that at the average place, the girl guys are looking at and is likely the hottest girl out is in reality a 7. Just inflated by the 2,3,4,5 crowds. Again – average place, local bar etc. In other words – most PUA FR’s are about 9’s…. yeah sure they are!

        [CH: there’s prolly some field report HB inflation going on, but not by more than a point or two. anyhow, HB8s do exist, and they aren’t that rare. in the right parts of town HB9s are even a fairly common sight.]


  40. My mom taught me how to shoot when I was 8, and bought me my first 22 when I was 12.

    How did she teach me? She bought me a bbgun that was so powerful it could kill a squirrel. She sent me outside to shoot squirrels. That is what she wanted…squirrel for dinner. Once I learned not to shoot myself, or lamp posts, she got me a 22.

    She wanted me to have the 22 because it was moree effective…at shooting squirrels.

    When I got to basic training, I scored 1 shy of perfect, and that failure was due to ammo failure. Other than sighting our rifles in, which we shot at bullseye targets, we shot at silhouettes of people. We shot at silhouettes because it was as close as we could economically get to the real thing.

    But, I shot well because of all those years of squirrel hunting.

    My point in all that was, shoot at what you want to get. Do you want 5-7? No. You want 8-10. Don’t go for 5-7, except to make sure your gun is in working order. Don’t waste good ammo on what you don’t want hung on your trophy wall, or you mom doesn’t want in the frying pan.