Girls Who Lie

flowchart loveI was listening to a morning talk show and the subject was about local area bars cheating customers by using false pint glasses with thicker bottoms that only hold 14 ounces of beer, and leaving too much head on top. Since this is a major breach of bar patron trust many irate callers offered opinions on what to do, which basically boiled down to stiffing the bartenders on tips, informing the manager of your displeasure, or choosing a new bar. Stiffing a bartender is not usually a good idea since it’s the bar manager who sets policy, and most bartenders are on your side.

When you catch a girl you are dating in a lie that matters you are presented with a few alternative ways to respond. Although it’s fun to think of a girl as “tapping a keg”, she isn’t a bar and doesn’t have a manager you could complain to, so that option is not available. You don’t want to call her out on her lie because that will accomplish nothing; if she’s comfortable lying in the first place calling her out isn’t going to reform her character. You’re not the first man she lied to, and you won’t be the last.

In my experience, you have two acceptable courses of action:

  • Ignore the lie, but know who you’re dealing with.

Knowledge is the key to managing a woman. If you catch her in a serious lie you will feel like she isn’t treating you with the respect you deserve and you will want to dump all over her, but before you do remember that you’ve gained some very crucial leverage over her — you know her character. Now you can handle her appropriately. Have some fun, enjoy her company (read: sex), but move her to your second or third tier of women. You owe her nothing. Maintaining a code of silence on your discovery of her lie is a form of power that will allow you to hold her at arm’s length and remove all her tools of manipulation.

Identifying a bad seed is important so you don’t waste too much time and energy trying to find her nonexistent inner beauty.

  • Leave her.

Character is destiny. A woman who lies about serious shit will not make a good long term girlfriend, wife or mother for anyone, so if you are a man looking for that you may want to streamline your dating efficiency and drop her like you would drop a bar serving pints in 14 ounce glasses. But don’t tell her exactly why you are leaving. As I wrote above:

Maxim #13: Calling a girl out on her lie accomplishes nothing.

Instead, cut through the ego bullshit and tell her the *deeper* truth — she is free to do whatever she wants with her life but you expect loyalty from the women you date. Say no more. Just stop calling.

***

Do men or women lie more? I finally have the answer to that player’s pickup question.

Men occasionally lie about the big things. Women lie about everything all the time. Like gossip, it’s just another tactic for them to manufacture the drama they so desperately crave in their lives. Your goal should be to find that quality woman who lies about the big stuff less than the average woman.

I don’t advocate lying to get into a girl’s pants, not for ethical reasons but because it isn’t necessary. Good game will get you there without the lies, and you’re less likely to get busted in the future. I do lie by omission sometimes, like not telling a girl my oversized member might hurt her, or that I’m dating around, unless she asks. I might even lie if she asks, because if I’ve just started dating another girl on the side I don’t consider that “dating another girl”. In my moral calculus, “dating” means more than five dates and you’ve banged her more than once. Anything less is “sampling”. This system has worked for me so far.

If you cross paths with a weak woman given to lying, don’t try to save her from herself. And don’t use her natural weakness as an excuse to get in the mud with her. Instead, look out for number one and do what’s in your best interest. Adopt a 1 to 10 sliding moral scale and place the women you date along that scale based on how you judge their characters.

All else equal, the closer she gets to 10 the more you will want to invest in her. She is worth it.

The closer she is to 1, the less you will want to invest in her. She is a succubus and will own your soul if you let her. Devalue her and let the good times roll. Your sperm will likely be mixing with another man’s sperm in her vagina.





Comments


  1. What is TOTALLY unforgiveable is if she lies about having a Glorious Natural Pelt.

    Like


  2. on June 23, 2008 at 5:32 pm Maeby Funke

    I might even lie if she asks, because if I’ve just started dating another girl on the side I don’t consider that “dating another girl”.

    Wow.

    Like


  3. If a woman lies to you, that gives you carte blanche to lie to her. She knows that she’s lying to you, so you shouldn’t feel any guilt whatsoever about giving her the same treatment. True, you can’t build a relationship on a lie, but if she lies to you first that ought to be a sign that any relationship with her would be pointless. As Roissy stated “[c]haracter is destiny. A woman who lies about serious shit will not make a good long term girlfriend, wife or mother for anyone, . . .”

    Like


  4. Men occasionally lie about the big things. Women lie about everything all the time.

    You’re doing the inverse of the Chris Rock routine, except that you’re serious and it isn’t really funny.

    Like


  5. So what bar was it? I’m going to go sleep with its younger, hotter sister.

    Like


  6. Yes, women who lie about important things will destroy your world if you invest too much in them.

    But avoiding them takes experience, and many younger men are in over their heads when it comes to these matters.

    Perhaps part of the problem now is that lying often rewards women, especially during marriage and divorce. Even if the lies are exposed, they usually have little or no bearing on custody or child support, which are the biggest rewards women get out of divorce.

    Like


  7. Wow. You still sound a little paranoid about those mean womens, but this is the first post I can remember where you did not assume that other people decide how you act toward them. It’s also the first time I can remember you admitting that women have qualities other than appearance which could affect their ability to be good partners. The dissembling about “dating another girl” vs. “dating another girl more than five times” isn’t a particularly impressive example of a player’s character. But overall, nice-ish post.

    Like


  8. “Your sperm will likely be mixing with another man’s sperm in her vagina.”

    Dude, I think I saw this movie on youporn

    ewwwwwwww

    Like


  9. The dissembling about “dating another girl” vs. “dating another girl more than five times” isn’t a particularly impressive example of a player’s character.

    before a bunch of commenters chime in about this part of the post with how evil i am, i’m going to preempt all the bitching and mention that it was semi-tongue in cheek. if you’ve been in a relationship with a girl you like for a while then you would tell her the truth if she asks if you’re dating other women. because after a certain amount of time has passed, exclusivity is just assumed. but during the first month or two together it’s OK to deny that you’re “dating another girl” if all you did was go on a date or two with different women.

    although, as jay gatsby said, if a girl is lying to you then you have carte blanche to do the same back to her.

    Like


  10. You know Dizzy, I eventually started to tell men who asked me out that I was only interested in men who were seeking marriage and (when I was younger) a family. That gets rid of a great many “player” types right there, who flee in horror at the mere whisper of those words.

    I’d follow that up with, “I can’t know if I could be serious about you, or vice versa, until we know each other better. That means you’re free to date as many women as you like until then. Of couse, I would expect the same freedom.” That seems to do away with that too-common male suspicion that a woman seeking marriage is “desperate” or needy or whatever it is they think.

    In my case, it also meant that I wouldn’t be sleeping with him any time soon – but it would probably work even for women who don’t share my particular views on that issue.

    This approach also short-circuits any attempt by the man to lie his way into your good graces, since he has no reason to do so. If he does lie, however, and pretend that he’s interested in a serious relationship when he isn’t, he’ll at least find it hard to claim that it’s all your fault for not making your intentions known. It can’t save you from heartbreak – but it can help to protect you from the humiliation of being lied to or manipulated.

    Clio

    Like


  11. #10 …
    That game is a good way to select for Betas and a host of abnormal male psychologies.
    But you’re right, if they stick around past all that, you’ll have the upper hand -for a while.

    Like


  12. If she is given to lying (rather than telling the occasional white lie), she is low in Agreeableness and maybe Conscientiousness too. The cunning bad girl is definitely not the type to invest in over the long term, but she has just the personality to make an excellent pivot, if hot. Hell, she’d probably get a rush from contributing to your conquest of a more innocent girl.

    Like


  13. Roissy, great post. This is an aphorism by the Buddha – Trying to bend a stick to your will is force. Maybe if you work out a lot you will eventually be able to bend or even break the stick. But why would you waste your time bending everything when you could emulate air? The air is unaffected by the stick no matter how many times, or how forcefully, it is swung through it. That is power.

    If I am hurt by a chick, I do not waste my time trying to change the girl by calling her out etc etc. You are spot on, calling it a futile exercise of the ego. I do pretty much the same as you with the addition of lightly communicating at the beginning of a relationship that I cut people out of my life if they cross a certain rubicon. That way she knows, if I do, why I am doing it. I’ve been thinking about this topic for a while. I don’t care so much bending a girl, but I do believe in leaving them better off than when I found them. Whether that means making it easier for the next guy to sleep with them or becoming a nicer person, I don’t really care =P. Any thoughts on how to do that?

    Like


  14. Um, Anonymous, I’m not really worried about chasing off all the non-serious guys who only want one thing. I know who they are. That’s not the problem.

    I’m worried about how mean they are. In person, they are like this blog can be. Semi-violent, angry, over-generalizing and entitled. I get approached a lot (my neighborhood is player central – a lot of women do) and it’s NOT fun.

    Read some of the posts where Roissy “humorously” takes down women who didn’t let him hit on them, or otherwise denied him what he wanted (even though it was well within their rights and any grown up should know that). Then think about being on the receiving end of one of his rants, in person, and in public. He’s bragged about trying to humiliate women, and that’s all kinds of messed up. The lying is a smaller symptom of that larger problem, the idea that, “I can decide, based on my own convenience, whether or not you have rights in our mutual dealings.”

    Like


  15. Oh, and the caveat of “No need to tell everything during the first two months,” sounds fair enough. Although I’m pretty sure only a girl who’s not seeing other people would ask.

    Like


  16. Dizzy, I wasn’t trying to offer you advice – I was trying to describe how a woman – any woman – can try to avoid the worst of the players and users. And wondering how male commenters here would react to my suggestions, too.

    Clio

    Like


  17. on June 23, 2008 at 11:15 pm Resentful Beta

    Clio,

    The kind of directness you suggest in #10 is refreshingly mature.

    Even if I had no interest in marriage, hearing that from a women would at least make me respect her more.

    Like


  18. To quote Clint Eastwood’s character in the movie Two Mules for Sister Sarah, “I have never met a woman who wasn’t natural born liar”. All too true. But if you understand this natural instinct in most women–perhaps you might call it a woman’s natural instinct to work a situation to her own advantage–your relationships with all women will go a lot easier. The worst mistake men make is to idealize women into vessels of moral purity and then when they act like the flawed creatures we all are men can become disillusioned.

    I am enjoying the incipient cat fight between Clio and Dizzy.

    Dizzy seems in a better mood today. Perhaps she got laid this weekend? And Clio, where have you been?

    Like


  19. A kinder, gentler Roissy is appearing. At least by comparison with the old one. I predict a substantial decline in readership as a result.

    Like


  20. The worst mistake men make is to idealize women into vessels of moral purity and then when they act like the flawed creatures we all are men can become disillusioned.

    -Racer X

    Exactly. That’s what I’m talking about.

    As men, we should have known better than to create the ideal woman on a pedestal. It was a huge mistake, because they can never be the divine creatures we’ve dreamed up in our most self-indulgent fantasies.

    Like


  21. “Roissy Maxim #13: Calling a girl out on her lie accomplishes nothing.

    Instead, cut through the ego bullshit and tell her the *deeper* truth — …”

    how is that not calling her out??

    Like


  22. “What is TOTALLY unforgiveable is if she lies about having a Glorious Natural Pelt.”

    I’m probably not the only person who is curious to learn how the subject of her personal hair situation would ever come up in conversation…perhaps something like “Hi, I’m Peter. Nice skates. You don’t shave where it doesn’t show, do you?”

    Like


  23. Re: Not Peter

    She’s Japanese, so she probably has one of those huge unshaven muffs that pop out like a gigantic afro…
    (unless she’s been living in America for a while)

    Like


  24. Wrong-o, anon. A ‘fro, by definition, is curly; Asian girls have straight hair (cuff’s same as the collar, y’ know).

    And Yuko shaves.

    The phrase “huge unshaven muff that pops out like a gigantic afro” must be mighty stimulating to Peter, though.

    Like


  25. Come to think of it, “unshaven muff” is redundant, no?

    Like


  26. I wouldn’t recommend lying to even out being lied to by a girl but all in all, Roissy’s options and reasoning for responding to a lie are pretty spot on. However, the whole not telling girls you’re dating on the side and whatnot sound kind of like lying to yourself. It’s probably acceptable in the beginning of a relationship when things are kind of up in the air though.

    If you are leaving the woman who lied to you, I don’t see the harm in telling her you know she lied. Communicating disappointment/ anger in a healthy way is fine; the woman will be aware you didn’t just let her off the hook.

    Like


  27. This post should have been titled “The lies women tell”. ALL women lie.

    All in all, I found this post VERY insightful. I mean no doubt, you catch a bitch lying to you, it is ON. I have caught bitches lying to me in the past and damn if I didn’t call them out on it like I was some sort of honesty-cop.

    Fuck that! Next time that shit happens, it’s open-season on that pussy in terms of me lying to get in it.

    Yeah baby, no need to worry, I’m TOTALLY sterile.

    Kick a bitch…

    Like


  28. Dizzy, I wasn’t trying to offer you advice – I was trying to describe how a woman – any woman – can try to avoid the worst of the players and users. And wondering how male commenters here would react to my suggestions, too.

    Somewhere within the dark, dark void there is the kernel of knowledge that tells you exactly how they would react. I can only ponder at your reasons for eliciting aforementioned reactions, although I’ll hold off on the accusation of reverse psychology validation, as I tend to not want to believe that.

    Saying “I’m only interested in guys who are interested in marriage and family” is titanically idiotic. And before you start twisting things sideways, let me put this one up there: you framed the statement as one to chase off what you don’t want instead of what you do. So don’t give me some goober garbage about being authentic because that’s not what it sounded like.

    If a man IS open to marriage and children some time in the future, the statement sends a klaxon into a tizzy in his brain all the same as the player. It says “I will try to pressure and manipulate you because I am ready for this to happen before you are.”. A relationship with you means that you are going to be dropping hints and being annoying about marriage before the man has indicated he’s ready. No smart man wants that, although a lesser man would. Your paranoia about players throws out the baby with the bathwater.

    But the most telling bit? It can’t save you from heartbreak – but it can help to protect you from the humiliation of being lied to or manipulated. You let fear of a possible emotional outcome drive your decision. I’ve been humiliated, lied to and manipulated by a woman. But I didn’t try to ‘protect myself’, because anyone who plays the dating game is vulnerable. Playing emotional dodgeball like that is just avoiding throwing your ego on the floor and coughing up the answer: “I have had bad choice in men”. (Caveat: This presupposes that the woman doing the ego throwing is self-conscious enough to truly have choice as the maxim ‘attraction is not a choice’ supersedes for normal women; in which case you’re just in need of admitting slavery to estrogenic ramblings) To think this ‘trick’ weeds out players is as naive as newbie pick up artists who think a few canned lines from their guru will melt panties. I developed a thicker skin, sought to understand the reasons why and got a notion of not letting other’s failures run my life. Run to the pain, not away from it.

    Like


  29. “ALL women lie.”

    No, not all of them.

    Like


  30. Animus, there’s no dark, dark void in me.

    The whole point of the approach I outlined is that it prevents either party from investing too much in the other person in the early phases of dating. Thus, there’s no need, in that early period, for dropping anxious hints about the future of the relationship.

    I’m not sure why the idea offends you so much. One of the reasons I adopted this attitude is that I got sick of the way men would always announce after a couple of dates that they didn’t want to “get serious” – but then continue to contact me very frequently and with every appearance of intense emotional investment.

    THAT kind of behaviour is manipulative, if you like. I began to suspect that it was a way of trying to let themselves off the hook, so that if they suddenly lost interest later on, they could plead that they never said they wanted anything more than a light fling.

    My approach was basically to say “If you’re not serious, don’t throw yourself at me as if you were. And if you think you could be, go slow – give us some breathing room.” In fact, that was often enough what I did say – the actual words I used depended on how the initial encounters with the man went.

    Clio

    Like


  31. What you posted is that you would mention kids and marriage and now that you got your criticism, you back pedal saying that’s not what you typically said? Mentioning marriage and family like that too early will scare off men and that includes men who want a marriage and family too. If that’s not what you often said…then why did you say it?

    Like


  32. Animus – it was what I often said. I also said other things, depending on the circumstances in which I met the man and the way he seemed to be pushing the relationship forward. The first approach, the more direct and blatant one, was one that I used if approached by a man in some context – like at a bar or a party – where I needed to get rid of the one-night stand seekers. The second approach – which is different in tone but not in meaning – was one that I used if the man was already a friend or acquaintance when he first asked me for a date.

    Why should a man be “scared off” if I mention marriage and children, if I also tell him that I don’t know him well enough to know if I could be interested in him, and that he’s free to see anyone else that he likes while we date? Did you miss that part, or do you think I didn’t really mean it?

    Clio

    Like


  33. Because, your rationalization of seeing others, etc. doesn’t offset it. You’re saying you have Goal X. You are presupposing that any relationship worth having must include marriage and children at some point. First off, that doesn’t coincide with alot of men’s viewpoints, even those that are open to both and will likely have both. Secondly, the 9 times out of 10 case is that a woman who mentions thus is more interested in the man as a means to an end (mommy fantasy, fulfilling her genes, whatever), and is going to push for these things. Your ‘second half’ to the statement is transparently coy. As for equating the first version and the second version? They don’t appear the same to me (and very likely other men), and in this realm, perception is reality; ergo your supposition is wrong.

    Like


  34. “You are presupposing that any relationship worth having must include marriage and children at some point.”

    If that’s how she actually feels about it, what’s wrong with that? She’s not saying that has to be the case for everyone, but if she knows it’s the case for her, well, what’s it to you?

    “First off, that doesn’t coincide with alot of men’s viewpoints, even those that are open to both and will likely have both.”

    Well then, mission accomplished, yes? If the goal is to not waste time with guys who don’t want the same things she does, then maybe this works for her? (I don’t know, I’m asking.)

    If it also runs off guys who could possibly be ready somewhere down the line, then it’s still mission accomplished, isn’t it? I mean, if a guy can’t even refrain from freaking out about the subject long enough to hold a conversation about it, then he’s probably not going to get stable about it in a matter of months, and why should she gamble on such a risky prospect?

    If her time-frame is short and his isn’t (not saying either one is right or wrong, only that they’re not in sync,) isn’t it better to find that out upfront, before anybody invests anything?

    Like


  35. First – there’s something you’ve misunderstood about me. I did/do believe that any relationship worth having includes marriage (and children – but that’s moot now) at some point. I didn’t and don’t want to waste time, as I see it, in casual relationships. My dating “philosophy” differs fundamentally from yours, it’s clear. But that’s why I started using that approach – to try to discourage would-be suitors who saw several years spent in ambling, “let’s just have fun for now” relationships as worthwhile.

    Clio

    Like


  36. I think Clio’s approach is good. In fact, I recommend it to my female friends.

    I don’t know why it didn’t work for her; if a woman is reasonably physically attractive, starts young, and doesn’t have impossible standards that approach should get you married. If (and it’s a big if) you’re willing to have sex before marriage once satisfied that the guy is also serious about the potential for marriage. I think the virgin-till-marriage thing is outdated for the general public and can only work in religious subcultures now.

    Like


  37. I think: If you want to get married, say you want to get married. If you don’t, maybe mention that too (when appropriate). And if someone says what he or she wants, and it makes you want to run screaming, then most likely, the problem is with you.

    Like


  38. By the way, you guys are always telling women to avoid sex and marry young. But now on this thread you’re all saying don’t tell the men that’s what you’re up to, because that’s “scary?”

    So I’m supposed to be available to all these guys who approach because that’s “nice” (day brightening was the phrase used, actually). But I can’t sleep around because only boys can do that? And I should want to get married because that’s what good girls do and all my eggs will die and I will never have babies if I don’t get a man to want me more than he wants variety? (Even though that’s some biological determinitive that he can’t control and I should understand). And I can’t tell anyone that’s all I want because that’s freaky?

    Sheesh. Couldn’t I maybe just cure cancer instead? It sounds easier and more fun.

    Like


  39. Dizzy, you’ve put the problem in a nutshell.

    clio

    Like


  40. First – there’s something you’ve misunderstood about me. I did/do believe that any relationship worth having includes marriage (and children – but that’s moot now) at some point.Johnny Depp (as a convenient, high profile example) is not married. He has had children with a woman and been in a relationship with her for a long time. Is his relationship ambling? Is it not worth having? In a world where people are deciding to have children later or not at all, and where people are less religiously inclined, your viewpoint is in the minority. Lots of people have very fulfilling relationships without those things. Slavery to dogma is not admirable. Perhaps when you were ‘on the scene’ your sentiment was more widely shared, but what you speak of now is approaching obsolescence in the world of Upper Class Urban Dating. Last but not least, things have a time and a context to be mentioned in. I’m mostly saying I think yours is inappropriate. We can disagree on that point but I’m very certain any sort of empirical test would come to my favor.

    Like


  41. 1. Re Johnny Depp:
    Yes, it’s ambling. No, it’s not worth having. Why not ask me about what I think of the bad example celebrities (with lots of money and support) set, with their casual couplings that few others can afford to emulate without suffering rather more in consequence?

    2. You tel me that my viewpoint is in the minority and then reproach me for being a slave to dogma. Perhaps I could point out that you’re a slave to contemporary convention?

    3. The customs of my “scene” weren’t that different from those of today, though some trends have become more pronounced since then. I do not think that the obsolescence of older dating customs is a good thing; in fact, I don’t think Roissy does either. If you read his first-ever post, you’ll observe that he says that the present dating system is hard on all but the most beautiful women and the most aggressive men, or something of that sort.

    4. Speaking of which, I’ve been commenting at this site for a good deal longer than you have (unless you’ve appeared before under a different pseudonym), and our host has never objected to my comments for their lack of appropriateness, though we’ve certainly argued over specific points. Exactly who has made you the master here? If it’s Roissy, then I bow to your superior authority and beg pardon for my faux pas.

    Clio

    Like


  42. Animus – 0
    Clio – 1

    Like


  43. on June 26, 2008 at 3:55 am SovereignAmericanMale

    Props to Clio RE: (41)

    returning to the topic of: “Liars of the female variety”

    I don’t share what measure of life remaining to me, with lies or those who purvey them. I search for wisdom, significance, and wisdom. Lies and Lying are trite and common. I am a Superior Man (study I-ching or Confucius to understand my context for that)

    I value my sperm, almost as much as my remaining days.
    A known liar will never be honored with my genes.

    My standard is that Truth wherever found is beautiful. This taken into practice in application shows her (the liar) to be internally hideous, and grotesque.

    Roissy said: “In my experience, you have two acceptable courses of action: (1)Ignore the lie, but know who you’re dealing with. (2)Leave her.”

    As for my house, there is only one acceptable course of action. “Leave her, and give her a sealed envelope.”

    Contained within: My advice to her about Choice and Consequence & My word to her, on what must change if she desires a lasting future with someone like myself.

    My power is made manifest not by yelling, or calling someone out, its quite effectual in a whisper or as ink on a page.

    ————————————
    Re 10 Clio
    “I eventually started to tell men who asked me out that I was only interested in men who were seeking marriage and (when I was younger) a family.”

    Too bad there are so few of you, It would save me a lot of work and time. I am searching for my “The One” (a twin sun, to form a binary sol system) and I will never rest until she is found.

    Like


  44. #1 Yes, it’s ambling. No, it’s not worth having.

    Why? Why is it that two people who love each other and have been living together for years have something that is *not* worth having, but the act of marriage makes it worthwhile? How much of your pleasure is tied up in the ritual and the expectations along with it?

    #2 We’re talking about the contemporary. Functioning in society necessitates toleration of it’s conventions. That’s not slavery. Saying that love is somehow diminished by not having a ceremony or a piece of paper from the government? That’s dogmatic.

    #3 We’re in agreement. The way things are now are not good. They ARE brutal. That’s why people are drawn to discussions like this. I’m just talking about the way things are: not praising them.

    #4 Was someone saying your comments were inappropriate? And I never claimed to be master (although I do claim to be an arrogant prick). As for posting tenure, I see zero relevance on the validity or non-validity of statements made. You asked for comments. I gave them. What you said about marriage/family I think is dumb and doesn’t work on the modern dating scene. (The milder version you gave that excludes those references is fine.) If you can’t stand the heat…

    Like


  45. #44: Was someone saying your comments were inappropriate?

    Yes. You were. Here’s the relevant citation:

    Last but not least, things have a time and a context to be mentioned in. I’m mostly saying I think yours is inappropriate. We can disagree on that point but I’m very certain any sort of empirical test would come to my favor. [emphasis mine]

    This comment was not only rather presumptuous, but it gave me the impression that you thought I was some kind of troll. I assure you I’m not. The main reason I discovered this site and began to post comments here was that its host put me on his blogroll (“The Other World”), and its readers began turning up at my blog, much to my mystification when I saw whence they had come.

    Your question about marriage is too large for me to deal with here. For the moment, I’ll just say that cohabitation is much more unstable even than marriage, partly because it often begins with little planning, discussion, or thought for the future, almost by accident, as it were. Some people may value this aspect of it but it is usually very painful for the party who is more committed to the relationship.

    Would you place much faith in a business partner who refused to sign a contract stating the terms of your association?

    Clio

    Like


  46. Would you place much faith in a business partner who refused to sign a contract stating the terms of your association?

    Homerun.

    Like


  47. Love is not business. Sigh. Yes, I thought you might say that. But it’s neither a wise nor a discerning remark.

    The fact is that a long-term sexual relationship, especially one that involves shared living quarters and sexual relations between two people of breeding age, nevertheless entangles one in the business and life of one’s partner. Without a set of accepted societal rules to govern that partnership’s relations with the external world (not its internal functioning, which should be the business of no one but the two parties), these entanglements can lead to endless problems if the two parties should wish to change the status of their relationship – or if it is forcibly changed for them by death.

    You think that the existing rules of marriage are unfair to men. Very well. But that is something that is subject to change. Not so long ago, they were very unfair to women.

    Meanwhile, cohabitation without marriage does not necessarily result in a more equitable settlement of property and childcare arrangements. In fact, my impression is that such settlements are often rather worse than those that emerge from a collapsed marriage. For example, it is harder for a man who has not married the mother of his children to convince a court that he ought to have custody of them. And are child-support payments really less onerous for the non-custodial parent, if the two parents were never married?

    Finally, marriage implies a widely understood set of mutual obligations, like monogamy, care for children, and support in times of sickness. You may find these onerous or you may argue that many married people choose to ignore them. But in the establishment of anything so serious as a lifetime partnership with one man, I would much prefer to work from a set of conventions that I understood.

    It is possible for cohabiting partners to spell out their wishes and the precise degree of their obligation to each other when they move in together, but the vast majority do not do so. It’s my understanding that men, in particular, are considerably less likely to be faithful to a cohabiting girlfriend than a wife. I have seen many sets of statistics to confirm this but as I am out of time, I hope you will check this out for yourself.

    clio

    Like


  48. Love may not be business but it is a transaction. If the terms aren’t favorable or the deal gets sour, I will walk away.

    And as with any other transaction, all means are ok aside of outright screwing over the other side.

    Like


  49. Lying’s unrelated to gender. You seem to spend a lot of time rationalizing that chip on your shoulder.

    Seek therapy. Or become a rapper.

    Like


  50. on June 27, 2008 at 5:56 pm An intervener

    Option 3? Talk to her. Imagine a world in which you don’t take everything at face value, and in which people act on the basis of things you probably don’t know about. This world is called reality. It might be time to take a trip, unless you are satisfied with sustenance through anonymous sex, terror while waiting for test results, and obsessively checking blog comments?

    Like


  51. You think that the existing rules of marriage are unfair to men. Very well. But that is something that is subject to change. Not so long ago, they were very unfair to women.Two wrongs don’t make a right. I’ve had friends go through the proverbial rape of divorce. And I don’t use that word lightly. It’s gotten way too ugly. Personally, I’m against cohabitation. The weight of marriage is just so considerable these days and the bias so bedeviling that it requires a good nature that the vast majority of women lack.

    Like