Exclusive CH Election Eve Post

Undecided voters are stupid.

These “deliberative” voters will choose our next President. Sweet.

Voting is a useless exercise. Your one vote will not change the result of a national election. Get over yourself.

If you wear an “I voted” sticker tomorrow, you are a status whore. And you can be bought cheap.

I support limiting the right to vote to net taxpayers and taking it away from net tax-recipients.

Obama’s grandmother died today. The bus Obama threw her under when he implied she was as hateful as the good Reverend Goddamn America will now be driving her to the special hell reserved for a politically convenient closet racist betrayed by the biracial child she spent her life raising. That’s the funny thing about kids — they’re ingrates!

Marxism still doesn’t work.

The Great Society failed. The Great Society 2 will also fail.

Some people will always be losers in life. Learn to be at peace with this reality.

If McCain loses, Palin did not cost him the election. The tanking stock market did.

Re: the stock market meltdown. There is a difference between deregulation and bad regulation. The current financial problems are a result of the latter.

The most insightful book on Obama you will never hear about.

Nearly every mainstream media organ fully and utterly discredited itself in this election by moving from simple bias to becoming a functional propaganda arm of the Democrat candidate. This was not an easy thing to do. The days of an objective press are over. Long live the blogs! For now…

An Obama Presidency will be more entertaining than a McCain Presidency. “May you live in interesting times…”

If Obama wins, Europe will love us again. This matters to people for whom Europe’s love is important. We call these people betas.

I would rather have a glass of pinot noir with Obama than with McCain.

2010 will be a repeat of 1994.

We are in the midst of the End Days of America. There will be no Savior. There will be no President who can change our course. The killing blow was unleashed decades ago and the fist is only now beginning to strike.

I am not voting. Why does that bother you so much?





Comments


  1. It’s a felony, but if you do it discreetly there’s no possible way you could ever get caught – you should sell your vote. Which option looks better:

    -$20 and no say in how the government is run.
    -No say in how the government is run.

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  2. First!!

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  3. on mainstream media: they’ve progressed from writing expository, to persuasive, to cathartic only. Much of it serves only to blowoff the authors’ emotions.

    on voting in abstentia for Europeans: I once thought it wise to, at least, consider the preferences of Europeans. Learning how mis-informed they are (their press is as bad as our domestics) I no longer consider that angle.

    I’ll take the beer with Palin.

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  4. No, no, no! 2010 will most definitely NOT be a repeat of 1994. The demographic glacier is moving inexorably toward the unanimity of the “enlightened” opinion of Adams-Morgan, Manhattan, Berkeley, and other such similar places with the addition to the electorate of huge numbers of intellectual idiots with degrees in things like “critical queer studies”.

    Eventually the GOP will crumble (probably sooner rather than later), but if I were a Democrat I wouldn’t be gloating, because the same will come to them very shortly after, once the common raison d’etre of hatred of Republicans and Chimpy Bushitler McHalliburton is no longer around.

    Once these wounds are rubbed raw, the mutual hatred of the three principal Dem constituent groups, blacks, Hispanics, and radical feminists, will come to the fore. Should be interesting.

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  5. Pff. Europeans will love Obama as long as he’s running against a greater evil and then for a bit of victory euphoria. Our media has built an image of this finally moral American who believes in European superiority and who’ll ask Paris for permission before bombing people. That bubble will burst pretty quickly once Obama actually starts doing stuff and then it’s riot-time when Obama-Hitler comes to visit.

    The best part will be watching the confusion at Daily Kos once they finally realize that being black gives him no immunity from anti-Americanism.

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  6. If Obama wins, Europe will love us again. This matters to people for whom Europe’s love is important. We call these people betas.

    Europe will love us for all of 20 minutes, then it will be right back to business as usual once they realize there’s no longer any evil Republican boogeyman to contrast him against and Obama becomes the new face of American power.

    I was a believer that McCain would pull out an upset thanks to faulty polling, but now that Obama’s grandma died, I don’t think so. The media will be running smaltzy, sappy tributes to her all over I bet, plus I expect a riveting speech from him sometime between tonight and tomorrow. I also predict that once he starts turning America into the newest 3rd world country, Mexicans will start sneaking across the border to RE-enter Mexico for opportunities. Also, if he proves inept, which I believe he will, the media and the limousine liberals will be the first to turn on him and throw him under the bus to salvage their own reputations, which will in turn put them at odds with the blacks in the party who will support him no matter what. He will fracture the Democratic party something fierce.

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  7. I just realized jaakkeli already made the European point.

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  8. I’m voting because Obama will be an epic failure and I want to have the moral high ground in the future. Chuck Baldwin ’08!

    Also, can anyone explain this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s

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  9. Roissy said:

    “If Obama wins, Europe will love us again. This matters to people for whom Europe’s love is important. We call these people betas.”

    Okay…

    Then he said:

    We are in the midst of the End Days of America. There will be no Savior. There will be no President who can change our course.

    If we are in the midst of the end days of America — which I do believe — then why would you NOT care what Europe thinks of us, or what, China, India, Sarkozy or Putin or Chavez or Ahmadinejad thinks of us, for that matter?

    I would think that the citizens of a wobbly overstretched empire that is inevitably destined to be swallowed up by the bark chipper of history would be VERY interested in what other countries think… maybe we could learn something… not about how to run a country successfully, but about where we veered irreparably off course and ceded the future to other societies.

    In other words, I would think a little *humility* would be called for, not more chest-beating jingoism and faux-alpha “Country Firstism”.

    Roissy has presented us with yet another a fundamental contradiction in his thinking.

    I am voting for Obama not because I think he will be successful in saving America — the chances of that are very, very slim.

    I am voting for Obama because even on a sinking liferaft, I am for sharing the dwindling resources of that raft so that everyone, even the weak and the despised, have an equal share.

    Not because I think it’s gonna get us anywhere, but because it is always the right thing to do.

    And Sarah Palin? For being a know-nothing exemplar of the aggressive whitebread ignorance and bigotry that sealed America’s fate, may gargoyles in the pits of hell tear off her rotting limbs with their beaks, again and again, for all eternity.

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  10. on November 4, 2008 at 1:17 am Tired of Smoke Rings

    “I am not voting. Why does that bother you so much?”

    Not bothered in the least. In fact what took you so long? Anyone that doesn’t understand that the current electoral farce is a key element in pacifying the masses probably deserves to be in chains. Voting implies consent to be governed by the dopes foisted on you by both parties and the string pullers they work for. Consent, not choice,is the goal of modern elections.

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  11. on November 4, 2008 at 1:20 am Tired of Smoke Rings

    “I am voting for Obama because even on a sinking liferaft, I am for sharing the dwindling resources of that raft so that everyone, even the weak and the despised, have an equal share.”

    Dibbs on Joe T.’s stuff.

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  12. on November 4, 2008 at 1:29 am Patrick Bateman

    You should see the look people give me when I tell them I wrote in “None of the above”.

    I’ll be spending tomorrow night at a house party with a bunch of lefties. Surely, I will be the only real man there.

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  13. D.C. will be going 90%+ Democrat straight up anyway. So it doesn’t really matter…

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  14. I loathe McCain but I’ll be voting for him. Ever since judges started making up laws, we’ve become steadily less free. Obama will accelerate that trend. Give him 2-3 Supreme Court judges and you’re done.

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  15. The media did not vet Obama, instead anointed him, and as the result, scandals are just now coming to light:

    *Jack Cashill Reports that various (four IIRC) analysis done by “Fiction Fixer” software shows that Obama’s first book “Dreams From My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance” was ghost-written by William Ayers. [The text from Dreams and “Fugitive Days” was compared and it came out with the same metrics for almost everything.]

    *Obama’s “alleged” Edwards-style mistress, i.e. young, attractive campaign worker, known to have spent time alone with him overnight in a hotel, exiled to Bermuda and suddenly working, for a considerable sum, as an investment manager (despite no experience in the matter) for Mayor Daley’s Building Inspector, who seems to have a lot of money.

    *The Rashid Khalidi tape where America-Israel bashing was celebrated by Obama, reputedly with very divisive and politically dangerous things said by Obama and wife Michelle, re: Jews, and Whites. [The LAT is dying, won’t release the tape on it’s website and establish itself — the contents are if anything even WORSE than what has been rumored.]

    *The Coal and Electricity Scandals.

    *Chuck Schumer’s desire to ram through Open Borders and Amnesty immediately upon Obama taking office … in a recession.

    *The question of illegality, aided and abetted and COVERED UP by Obama’s campaign staff, and that of Deval Patrick’s staffers and State workers, with respect to Obama’s illegal alien aunt, illegally residing in the US, illegally getting welfare, illegally getting public housing assistance, illegally donating, and illegally donating beyond the legal limit, likely for someone else given her impoverished nature.

    *WHAT did Obama know about his Aunt, and when did he Know It?

    IF Obama wins, these scandals will all merge into one giant distrustful mess, with a sense of betrayal, shoddy goods fostered on the public, and fury. Impeachment is quite likely, not the least of which is Obama’s lack of skill in finding the center. A hard left agenda out of the gate, foreign disasters as Iran and Pakistan and the Taliban and AQ all test him, economic disaster as Open Borders + Recession drive people into Obama-villes, are likely to provoke a radicalized populist response.

    Indeed, Obama’s aunt is emblematic of Obama’s problems. Public spending goes to illegal aliens and minorities, only, crowding out the White middle/working class. Obama’s model has a Chavez-like patronage system, but it leaves out the vast majority of the White working/middle class. Who, not getting the goodies, finding a reduced standard of living immediately, will resort predictably to Identity politics AND populism. If Obama had the skills, background, team, and willingness to throw minorities and aliens off the patronage gravy train, and ruthlessly court the middle, he would have a chance at a successful term, even under his Chavez model. Chavez, not being stupid, has courted the vast underclass and made sure it is dependent. However, America is still mostly middle/working class and courting minorities plus elites is a recipe for disaster.

    The disasters of his scandals JUST NOW percolating will surface. Just imagine the video of a President Obama and Wife giving “Hate Whitey” and “Hate Jews” sound-bites, played over and over and over again. No wonder the Neo Nazis love Obama, and see him as a fellow racist.

    Obama’s problem is that he is still undefined, and what is known about him is negative. That hurt Bill Clinton, too. Drip-drip-drip revelations, combined with various economic and security crises, and a tone-deaf inability to court the middle will kill Obama’s Presidency. I see impeachment and conviction as a real possibility if he wins.

    Pretty much every coal dependent group will be out for him, same with the auto makers, and same with mining, blue collar workers (who are mostly White Men), and pushing (as Chuck Schumer is now gloating about) for immediate Amnesty in a recession is pure impeachment and recall (for Congresscritters) bait. Nixon could not take “yes” for an Answer and I suspect neither can Obama, who resembles Nixon in being profoundly uncomfortable in his skin.

    I’d rather have a shot of whiskey with McCain, than wine with Obama. McCain has actually done something — Obama just talks, typical Affirmative Action entitled snob. He didn’t even write his own book — Ayers did.

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  16. I don’t see that Obama’s granny, who he threw under the bus, dying would have anything to do with anything.

    More telling is the bit about making electricity rates “skyrocket” (it’s clear few here pay household electricity costs, which can be brutal in the SoCal heat in the Summer) ten-fold, and shutting down coal.

    EVERY blue collar coal worker (about 140-200K) in PA, OH, and Colorado alone, will vote against Obama. Their employers will let them know about this, for sure.

    EVERY person who has a middle/working class budget and pays out their electricity bills will see the already big rate increases and vote against Obama — it’s a pure pocketbook play.

    Unforced error too — bad indicator for the guy’s ability to actually govern without making huge enemies of most of the country.

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  17. For me, this will be the greatest night since last week. Either way I’ll see lefties beaten. If McCain pulls the biggest surprise ever, I get a damn good laugh. If Obama wins, I win my huuuuuge bet with a dumb leftie who thought America was far too racist to elect a black man.

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  18. Damn, whiskey’s in the house!

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  19. Whiskey, try to let some of the steam from those made-up “scandals” escape from your ears before your head explodes.

    Obama will win tomorrow, bank it. There have been 160 polls taken in the last six weeks, and he has led in every single one. Face it, GW Bush destroyed your party. Hmmm, how many of you were gleefully worshipping him just a few short years ago…

    Don’t worry, though, it’s a two party system. When people get pissed at the world’s fucked-upness they will have no choice but to return to your party.

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  20. For me, this will be the greatest night since last week. Either way I’ll see lefties beaten. If McCain pulls the biggest surprise ever, I get a damn good laugh. If Obama wins, I win my huuuuuge bet with a dumb leftie who thought America was far too racist to elect a black man.

    Even if Obama loses, that dumb leftie HAS to admit that America is not as racist as he wants to believe for the sheer fact that the guy has so little experience and almost made it to top office of the country. If he was white I doubt he’d even be taken seriously as a candidate given his experience.

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  21. @19

    MQ – Amen.

    Joe T.’s Maxim No. 137b:

    “If you allow the greedy to grab more and more of what they haven’t earned and don’t deserve, eventually the whole thing will collapse on your heads, and you will whine like girls and try to blame other people.”

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  22. “If you allow the greedy to grab more and more of what they haven’t earned and don’t deserve, eventually the whole thing will collapse on your heads, and you will whine like girls and try to blame other people.”

    Problem is, the poor people looking for redistribution of wealth they didn’t earn can easily fit into your definition of “greedy people” just as well as rich fat cats can. And when it collapses on the Obama-cults heads, they will whine like girls/Democrats (really no difference) and try to blame other people too…beauty of it all is that with a Dem president and a overwhelming majority…who WILL they be able to blame this time? Bush still?

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  23. “If Obama wins, Europe will love us again. This matters to people for whom Europe’s love is important. We call these people betas.”

    Some people don’t understand the benefits of soft power. We call these people idiots. Sometimes it’s necessary to do the unpopular, but that doesn’t mean it’s wise to ignore world perceptions.

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  24. on November 4, 2008 at 2:49 am Maxwell Demon

    @Ricky Raw–even if McCain wins, I think it will be fair to blame the nation’s woes on Bush for at least two years. G-Dub is a fecal Midas with an almost unprecedented ability to fuck situations up.

    The Republicans shot themselves in the collective foot regarding all the best criticisms against Obama. Executive experience is important? Don’t nominate another senator to run against him. Experience in general is key? Palin is not such a great example of that. Socialism is bad? Alaska taxes corporations and hands out the proceeds to every man, woman and illegitimate child (your man Bush handed out checks a few months ago, too).

    The Red party may be looking at a big change, but the Blue one might too. Logically there should be a separate party for the far right, center-right, center-left, and far left. And the centrists could eventually merge.

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  25. WAIT WAIT WAIT! WTF are you people talking about… “election eve”. Nobody else got that letter letting them know election day has been moved to November 5th? They did it so there would be shorter lines, God, I’m glad I told you people so we can laugh at all the idiots waiting in line on the 4th….

    wait a minute is anyone else on this comment thread black… oh shit… those bastards

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  26. I voted for a third party candidate. I realize they have no chance to win, but Im not going to let the establishment make me absolutely voiceless. I guess Im just too damned mean.

    I went Baldwin. Barr was my second choice and Nadar my third.

    Roissy pretty much hit the nail on the head about where we are headed as a nation. We are in deep debt, we are trying to police the world, our military is exhausted, we are shipping in another underlcass one more generation from now (a good third of the children of the amnesty will have the entitlement mentality—just you watch), we are shipping out our productive capacity, we are losing our scientific/engineering edge, we are ageing, our women still aren’t having enough babies, the right people who can really generate great amounts of wealth are not having enough babies, our universities are becoming indoctrinaire jokes that dont arm their students with the tools they will need to really participate in the 21st century economy, we are making lousy energy decisions (we need nuclear first, we need to get all the oil we can out of this continent and waters that surround it, we need to mandate hybrids, we need to stick solar dishes and windmills on every piece of infrastructure that will hold them and will just hold still long enough to weld the fuckers on, and we need to get off our ass and do it fast). There is so much that needs to be done, but our pretzel-twisted contrarian political situation whereby partisan politicians try and please their biggest donors has us at cross-purposes with our own selves. A house divided for real.

    Im worried that if our situation continues to slowly decline that in 20 more years, some of our better young minds might start preparing to live abroad instead of here a the universities and technical learning institutions. We will be finished when we lose the big brains that keep us ahead to other nations.

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  27. Someone sounds like a sore (but trying very hard to hide it) loser. 🙂

    No need to get so down in the dumps get all sour grapey yet. The election hasn’t finished happening yet! I for one, won’t believe the polls until the final ballot is cast and counted.

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  28. @24

    Maxwell Demon said:

    “Palin is not such a great example of that. Socialism is bad? Alaska taxes corporations and hands out the proceeds to every man, woman and illegitimate child (your man Bush handed out checks a few months ago, too).”

    The reason Palin got away with it in Alaska is that the people of Alaska are overwhelmingly white, with a few Eskimos and Indians thrown in.

    If there was a sizable African-American or Hispanic community in Alaska, or this happened instead, in, say, DC or South Carolina, Palin would indeed quickly be branded a socialist, *unless* there were some provision in the law to give more money to whites.

    Let’s face it, the dirty not-so-little secret of America is that it has a vile, racist, and hypocritical soul and deserves getting the economic and political shit kicked out of it by other, smarter countries in the world every now and then. America needs to be more humble and stop bamboozling people, both inside and outside the US.

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  29. 24 – What Palin does in Alaska with the oil is not socialism but Georgism:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_dividend

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  30. “I am voting for Obama because even on a sinking liferaft, I am for sharing the dwindling resources of that raft so that everyone, even the weak and the despised, have an equal share.”

    And you want to know where America went wrong? Why we are in the end days of our Republic?

    Look in the mirror pal…

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  31. BTW, I could take Europe not loving us, but we’ve got retards running this country, getting us into dumb wars, and hiring 3rd rate Bible college graduates into positions of power. THAT is what needs to stop. THAT is what needs to…(i hate to say it) “change”.

    And McCain with his Palin pick just showed he’d be doing more of the same.

    I hate the “change” cliche, but…we need change! You are delusional (or brainwashed to the point you lack independent thought) if you think more of the same crap a good thing. Will Obama cure cancer? No. But he won’t look down the business end of a shot gun and pull the trigger either.

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  32. Let’s face it, the dirty not-so-little secret of America is that it has a vile, racist, and hypocritical soul and deserves getting the economic and political shit kicked out of it by other, smarter countries in the world every now and then. America needs to be more humble and stop bamboozling people, both inside and outside the US.

    Please, enlighten us. Can you tell us of a country out there anywhere NEAR as multicultural as we are that is LESS racist than we are in America?

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  33. Will Obama cure cancer? No. But he won’t look down the business end of a shot gun and pull the trigger either.

    What in his political experience convinces you of that?

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  34. @30. you’ve been brainwashed to think that McCain is Bush.

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  35. David’s voting for the guy who will ensure funding for mass transit and thus, job openings in mass transit planning…

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  36. @31

    Ricky – Brazil is as multi-cultural as us, if not more so (because they still have a sizable indigenous population in the north, whereas we butchered ours), YET the fabric of Brazilian society, and the people there, are, on the whole, much less racist than the US.

    I attribute this to the fact that the US was settled primarily by Northern European whites (notably the Germans in the Midwest and Scots-Irish in Appalachia and the South), and Brazil was settled primarily by the considerably less racist Portuguese.

    And no, I’m not saying that ALL Germans and Scots-Irish are racist, by any means. What I am saying is that the ones who settled in the US developed a virulently racist cultural template that has endured in large part to this day.

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  37. I predict a very close race, not the blowout the media & voter polls have been hinting at.

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  38. “What in his political experience convinces you of that?

    Unlike George Bush, Obama is a self-made success and has been his entire life. McCain, with his Palin pick, basically promised us more of the same incompetence we’ve had running this country for 8 years. People are tired of that crap…and want change.

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  39. “The reason Palin got away with it in Alaska is that the people of Alaska are overwhelmingly white, with a few Eskimos and Indians thrown in.”

    No…the reason Palin “got away with it” is because the oil is pumped from public land leased to the oil companies. The Alaskan taxpayer owns that land. The checks they get are the rental price for the oil companies using the land.

    That’s hardly socialism.

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  40. Ricky – Brazil is as multi-cultural as us, if not more so (because they still have a sizable indigenous population in the north, whereas we butchered ours), YET the fabric of Brazilian society, and the people there, are, on the whole, much less racist than the US.

    Have you heard this from a dark-skinned Brazilian person? Because Brazil is NOTORIOUS for having racism between the lighter Brazilians vs. the darker Brazilians.

    Second, no way Brazil matches us for cultural diversity.

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  41. No…the reason Palin “got away with it” is because the oil is pumped from public land leased to the oil companies. The Alaskan taxpayer owns that land. The checks they get are the rental price for the oil companies using the land.

    That’s hardly socialism.

    Exactly, it’s called Georgism. Anyone curious as to the difference between Georgism and Socialism can look up each on Wikipedia.

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  42. “No. But he won’t look down the business end of a shot gun and pull the trigger either.”

    Um…that’s Obama’s national energy plan in a nutshell.

    Only we ALL get to look down the barrel with him.

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  43. “Unlike George Bush, Obama is a self-made success and has been his entire life. ”

    What has Obama succeeded at, other than promoting himself into ever higher positions of political power?

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  44. @39

    Ricky Raw – sure there’s racism in Brazil, as there is in any country with more than one race.

    And why is it that whenever someone brings up a cogent point about racial diversity and racism in different countries, the counter-argument is that lighter-skinned people of Group A are bigoted against darker-skinned people of Group A, within that country? This argument is *always* trotted out.

    Certainly there’s truth in that. But that doesn’t negate the glaring fact that the US white population is, in the mean, far more racist in its deeply-embedded cultural attitudes than the Brazilian white population.

    In Brazil, there was a lot more interracial mixing through the years, and that’s made it kind of hard for many “whites” to be virulently racist against darker people, because they know what their roots are.

    Same is true — even more so — in Puerto Rico, where I lived for 2 years. The average Puerto Rican is a cafe-au-lait blend of European, African, and Indian and so racism on that island is the province, and the luxury, of only a tiny sliver of the population.

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  45. Yes, the U.S. and by extension the world is rapidly spiralling down to…something.

    BTW, you forgot to mention Peak Oil.

    “I got a fever and the only prescription is a Blade Runner-like society”

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  46. “Um…that’s Obama’s national energy plan in a nutshell.

    Only we ALL get to look down the barrel with him.”

    What’s interesting about Obama’s energy plan is that we get to be both the ones looking down the barrel and the ones being shot at. It will all be very transcendental.

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  47. Same is true — even more so — in Puerto Rico, where I lived for 2 years. The average Puerto Rican is a cafe-au-lait blend of European, African, and Indian and so racism on that island is the province, and the luxury, of only a tiny sliver of the population.

    How does a “cafe-au-lait” blend equal a country as multicultural and diverse as America? You are talking about a country predominately of one race, just in different color variations. Of course there is less racism there, as there are significantly less races.

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  48. 36 Joe T.:

    Ricky – Brazil is as multi-cultural as us, if not more so (because they still have a sizable indigenous population in the north, whereas we butchered ours), YET the fabric of Brazilian society, and the people there, are, on the whole, much less racist than the US.

    What Rick said.

    Most whites have no understanding of the OVERT racism in latin culture towards their underclass.

    p.s. why the self-hate Joe?

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  49. Z said:There is so much that needs to be done, but our pretzel-twisted contrarian political situation whereby partisan politicians try and please their biggest donors has us at cross-purposes with our own selves. A house divided for real.

    Something^^^ that is hardly ever mentioned by anyone in the media. Nightline did a short but sweet exposé on big donors and lobbyists and the conventions.

    Joe t said: Let’s face it, the dirty not-so-little secret of America is that it has a vile, racist, and hypocritical soul and deserves getting the economic and political shit kicked out of it by other, smarter countries in the world every now and then. America needs to be more humble and stop bamboozling people, both inside and outside the US

    In many ways American race relations have improved but there is still a long way to go

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  50. And why is it that whenever someone brings up a cogent point about racial diversity and racism in different countries, the counter-argument is that lighter-skinned people of Group A are bigoted against darker-skinned people of Group A, within that country? This argument is *always* trotted out.

    Dark-skinned people from Brazil I know CONSTANTLY tell me about it, so I figure it must be trotted out because they perceive it to be true to some degree.

    The fact remains though that of all majority-white countries, America is the best for blacks in terms of racism. If this country is so damn racist, how is it even possible that a black man with Obama’s flimsy resume and young age is even this close to the Presidency? And if polls are to be trusts, Barack Obama is poised to have the biggest white voter turnout for a Democrat since 1964:

    http://blogs.wsj.com/politicalperceptions/2008/11/02/a-black-candidate-ends-democrats%E2%80%99-white-problem/

    What majority white country has more opportunity for black people than America?

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  51. What has Obama succeeded at, other than promoting himself into ever higher positions of political power?

    hate to tell you, but this is the secret of life in an organized society. The careers of CEOs can also be described as “getting yourself promoted into ever higher positions of political power” — it’s not like most CEOs actually start their companies or invent something.

    A difference between Bush and Obama is that Bush got promoted *only because* of his family connections.

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  52. @47

    Ricky – okay, I meant Brazil when I said they’re as multicultural as the US.

    In Brazil you have:

    1) An indigenous population of “Indians” composed of many culturally distinct tribes, some of which remain relatively untouched by white civilization.

    2) Portuguese settlers gave the country its language and much of its culture.

    3) The biggest Lebanese community outside Beirut, in Sao Paolo.

    4) One of the biggest communities of Italian emigrants anywhere in the world, by far.

    5) The biggest community of Japanese emigrants anywhere in the world outside of Japan.

    6) Communities of Germans, Irish, Welsh, Syrians, Greeks, Armenians, Persians, Chinese, etc. in all the major urban areas.

    7) A huge Afro-Brazilian population that is in many ways analogous to our African-American population, only they speak Portuguese.

    How is that less diverse than the US?

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  53. …although in fairness, Obama has not held an executive leadership position — except for this campaign, a several hundred million dollar operation he ran extremely well.

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  54. Joe T.,

    You must not know any Italians. Black soccer players in Italy are routinely subjected to monkey chants, not to mention overtly Fascist sections of fan bases. Paolo di Canio is a very popular fascist soccer player for Lazio in Rome (http://cultureofsoccer.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/di_canio_salute.jpg). There are probably similar sentiments in other European countries, I just have first hand experience with Italy.

    Could you imagine this happening in any sport, at any level in America?

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  55. @30. you’ve been brainwashed to think that McCain is Bush.

    In selecting Palin as his running mate, McCain asked for it. His only real chance of winning lay in a platform of accountability and responsibility contrasting strongly with GWB’s lack of the same. He failed to offer this, so few are truly enthusiastic about him; really, his only compelling selling point is that he isn’t Obama.

    That’s not enough to win, and it shouldn’t be.

    I’m afraid of some of the things Obama might do, and I feel there’s a real danger things will start going downhill fast enough to justify my learning Mandarin properly and then immigrating to the Far East. But he’s shown more ability to learn on the fly than most of the other candidates (though not Romney). He might end up more like Clinton than Carter. And, as T noted on his blog, if he’s like Carter that’ll be the best thing that could possibly happen to the Republicans.

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  56. This is from the same political genius that declared Obama would drop Biden for Clinton after the GOP convention.

    Please ban this VK idiot.

    Like


  57. @48

    TC – it’s not self-hate, because deep down I don’t really believe something such as the “white race”, at least not what it represents in the popular imagination of Americans, really exists as such. I believe one can single out for greater blame certain white *groups* for originally embedding racism in our society, although not necessarily for perpetuating it.

    I don’t happen to come from any of the white groups which I see as having generated the initial fires of racism in this country, ergo I do not blame myself.

    However, even if I did come from one of those groups, I believe that if I were a conscious, self-aware individual, I would still have to blame these white groups for generating the racial divide and racial animus.

    Self-awareness, and blaming oneself, is the very first step to improving oneself.

    As a beta (in the dating context), I am the first to admit that I am one, and the first to critically examine myself and the behaviors which negatively impact my success.

    Why shouldn’t it be the same with *every* aspect of one’s personality and self-assessment?

    That’s why, as a “white”, I am also 100% in favor of affirmative action. I believe whites who whine about affirmative action are weak people, sniveling losers (essentially racial betas), because deep down, they fear that they cannot compete with minorities if minorities are given a leg-up. Since they can’t admit they’re afraid they can’t compete, they cast blame hither and thither, further emphasizing their weakness and inadequacy.

    (Note: whether the affirmative action is justified or not, fair or not, or useful or not, is beside the point. The very *fact* that many whites whine about affirmative action marks them as weak, inadequate losers who fear they cannot compete intellectually with other *whites* — not to mention the minorities who benefit from it. Since what they really fear is they can’t compete with the academic cream of the white and Asian communities, they transpose their anger onto the underrepresented minorities who are the intended benefits of affirmative action. But in my book, this only shows that these whites are *losers* and they know it. Conservatives are by far the biggest white group that whine about affirmative action, ergo conservatives on the whole have secret inferiority complexes, probably largely justified.)

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  58. @54

    puma – I am Italian-American with very close ties to my family in Italy. I travel to Italy like 6 times a year.

    what you point out about the soccer situation is sad, but anyone who knows Italy will know that it is ludicrous to view the country by foul deeds of a handful of soccer hooligans. Have you been to Italy and spent a good amount of time among real Italians?

    Then you’ll know that overall, it’s very far from being a racist country.

    There are racist in EVERY country. Just because a few Italian soccer hooligans got a bunch of press coverage is no reason to view the whole country and its people as racist.

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  59. Any country that chooses a guy like Obama richly deserves what it gets.

    In this case, does any Obama voter know what Obama is going to do on anything?

    We we can surely count on higher taxes. But, what Democrat ever saw a tax he didn’t like?

    People like me who work 5 months a year, 6 days per week, to pay their taxes have a problem with that.

    Like


  60. Joe T.,

    So Italy is far from being a racist country despite some convincing evidence, and America “has a vile, racist, and hypocritical soul” despite being on the verge of electing a black president in record numbers. Non capisco.

    Like


  61. @60

    puma – Italy has a tiny minority of African immigrants mostly restricted to a few cities.

    As an example of Italian tolerance, when a British college student was stabbed to death in Perugia last year and two African immigrants (along with a white American girl and her Italian boyfriend) were all investigated for the murder, neither the Italian newsmedia, nor none of the Italians I know, screamed for the heads of the black guys.

    When one of the black suspects was cleared before early on, there was no public outcry that the guy pulled some kind of “OJ”. With a few very anecdotal exeptions, the attitude pervading the media coverage, public reactions, and my friends’ reactions was “let the truth come out and let’s not prejudge anyone.”

    If anything, most of my Italian friends and relatives thought the 2 Africans played peripheral roles in the slaying, and that the white American girl and her playboyish Italian boyfriend were the real murderers. And my personal friends and relatives in Italy include a lot of media types — TV, radio, and newspaper reporters and editors.

    I just did not see the racism surrounding that incident or an uproar for black ass to be fried, nor do I see any problem with pervasive racism in Italian society.

    What the soccer hooligans are doing there is shit that soccer hooligans do almost everywhere, and most of it is for attention.

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  62. on November 4, 2008 at 4:28 am ironrailsironweights

    I have it on very good authority that Obama has great appreciation for the Glorious Natural Pelt. McCain, in contrast, is a strong advocate of the Bald Eagle. For that reason, I must support Obama.

    Peter

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  63. 60 puma:

    So Italy is far from being a racist country despite some convincing evidence, and America “has a vile, racist, and hypocritical soul” despite being on the verge of electing a black president in record numbers.

    Joe, that’s the crux right there. America might have more racial *issues* than other countries but that’s because it’s so frickin HUGE and diverse as T. pointed out.

    But to say its *soul* is more inherently racist strikes me as more projection than anything else.

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  64. Joe T, how are you MEASURING racism with your claims? Or are these just your FEELINGS? And if they are, why are YOUR feelings more right than anyone else’s?

    Africa certainly has worse ethnic violence than America. They have shit like Darfur. The Baltics have gone through their share of conflicts. And while certainly blacks were mistreated as hell in 1944, at least we weren’t throwing them into furnaces explicitly or tacitly like our European brethren were with various groups they termed lesser. Seems the Japanese did something pretty bad to those Koreans. Despite serious problems, we seem to be doing a hell of a lot better than most of the world.

    And as for white racism, are you white? If so, I encourage you to take a trip to DC’s Southeast and the Anacostia. It’ll quickly absolve you of the idea that racism is one sided problem.

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  65. I’ll be voting for Bob Barr tomorrow. He’ll get less than one percent, but I want to show that there are at least some people want a serious reduction in the size of government.

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  66. I just did not see the racism surrounding that incident or an uproar for black ass to be fried, nor do I see any problem with pervasive racism in Italian society.

    Oh geez, when do you see this in America? When has anyone recently cried for “black ass to fry?” Do you realize how much journalists try to supppress news of black crime for fear of being politically incorrect? And you’re looking at all these little things to prove that America is the most racist place on earth, meanwhile you’re downplaying the fact that A BLACK MAN WITH ALMOST NO EXPERIENCE IS ON THE VERGE OF BEING ELECTED PRESIDENT WITH THE LARGEST WHITE VOTE IN OVER 40 YEARS.

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  67. In Brazil you have:

    1) An indigenous population of “Indians” composed of many culturally distinct tribes, some of which remain relatively untouched by white civilization.

    2) Portuguese settlers gave the country its language and much of its culture.

    3) The biggest Lebanese community outside Beirut, in Sao Paolo.

    4) One of the biggest communities of Italian emigrants anywhere in the world, by far.

    5) The biggest community of Japanese emigrants anywhere in the world outside of Japan.

    6) Communities of Germans, Irish, Welsh, Syrians, Greeks, Armenians, Persians, Chinese, etc. in all the major urban areas.

    7) A huge Afro-Brazilian population that is in many ways analogous to our African-American population, only they speak Portuguese.

    How is that less diverse than the US?

    Because in America, you can find all those races plus SEVERAL DOZEN MORE, all peacefully coexisting.

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  68. 66 Slick Rick:

    Oh geez, when do you see this in America? When has anyone recently cried for “black ass to fry?”

    *guiltily raises hand*

    That’s what I yell at my computer monitor whenever I read one of DA’s comments.

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  69. That’s what I yell at my computer monitor whenever I read one of DA’s comments.

    Damn. Good point. In that case I’m a racist too. 😦

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  70. The fact remains though that of all majority-white countries, America is the best for blacks in terms of racism.

    Somehow, Canada still has a fond place in my heart as a magical “racist-free” land. In practice, it remains to be seen if Canada is truly such a place or if it’s no better than the United States.

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  71. I hate these stupid political posts. Roissy really just does the standard conservative whining, he doesn’t add much in this area. Can we get back to outrageous statements about women, please?

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  72. @61 Joe T.,

    I doubt your friends are a very representative sample of the Italian population based on your own liberal sentiments. Here are some recent events that may illustrate my point:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7423165.stm
    http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/13/europe/13italy.php

    I don’t mean to single out Italy, it’s just one foreign country where I’ve witnessed racism first-hand. I’m not claiming it’s an Italian phenomenon – it’s universal. I’m just trying to point out that you are creating a fantasy world in which the United States is vile and racist and the rest of the world is tolerant.

    Just try imagining this happening in America: “In mid-May Italian police were forced to intervene to protect Roma Gypsies who came under attack from local residents in Naples, who set their camps alight.”

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  73. Joe T: Then you’ll know that overall, it’s very far from being a racist country.

    Yeah right. Let’s see McCain winning with election posters like this and I’ll believe that Italy is “far from a racist country” while America is a hive of villainy.

    That’s according to what *you* would consider “racist”, naturally. Like most Europeans, I have no problem with that.

    The one Brazilian I’ve ever met couldn’t stop babbling about how Finland is so full of beautiful blue-eyed people and how she was a princess at home but feels hopelessly ugly here (she was light for Brazil but dark for northern Europe). They didn’t have the anglo taboos on intermarriages but it doesn’t mean that they don’t idolize whiteness.

    But we all know white AmeriKKKa, even though it doesn’t exist, is uniquely evil and must pay, pay, pay.

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  74. @56 Higgs

    “This is from the same political genius that declared Obama would drop Biden for Clinton after the GOP convention.”

    Good point.

    Like


  75. Another example of racism in Italy:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1038747/The-world-shocked-Italian-sunbathers-ignoring-dead-gipsy-girls–But-Italy-showing-chilling-Roma-children.html

    And there are plenty of insensitive comments (by American liberal standards) from people all around Europe and the rest of the world in the comments section.

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  76. Oh yeah and like most Europeans, I despise the attempts to fight “football racism”. Sports would be nothing without taunting and unlike Americans, most of us see no particular reason to be especially touchy about racial insults. All’s fair. If you have a problem with racial insults, or insults of any other type, there are always careers in hairdressing.

    Man I don’t like those immigrants coming here to ruin our hatings.

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  77. jaaKKKeli – oh! sorry, jaakkeli – 😉 couldn’t resist. My bad.

    very funny with that poster! thanks for your comments and I do appreciate them… I believe that poster was banned. The Populist Party in Switzerland had a much more widely publicized poster with a black sheep being pushed off of a red/white Swiss cross.

    Just so you know, I am smitten by the typical blonde, blue-eyed look of N. European women… I don’t idolize whiteness, except for the look of Nordic women!

    Does that make me a doubly self-hating white reverse racist, or one a’ them-there confused Southern European horny dudes?

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  78. Racism again? Come on people. Let’s talk about our retarded President. Let’s talk about the retarded war in Iraq and LACK of war in Taliban’s home country. Let’s talk about his retarded cabinat nominations like Harriet Meyers. Let’s talk about his lack of spine and the fact his VP has more power than him. Let’s talk about a fiscal “conservative’s” utter inability to hold onto the biggest surplus in U.S. history. Let’s talk about those things.

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  79. Roma (gypsy) people have a horrible reputation for a good reason. A guy at my hostel in Rome told me that gypsy kids threw a baby at him, and when he reached out to catch it the kids stole his wallet. The situations in that article are dreadful, but gypsies typically refuse to send their children to school and go on welfare or scam non-gypsies via fortune-telling or shoplifting. Read an ethnography about roma/gypsies and you’ll see what I mean.

    Illegal immigration is a huge problem in Italy because it has so many ports and is viewed as a gateway to Europe.
    Berlusconi is cracking down too hard, but that mob attacking the gypsy camp was no worse than the Rodney King riots. Have you never heard a story about gypsies stealing babies?

    The classical black/white one drop divide is unique to America even if other countries (e.g. India) are strongly prejudiced against dark complexions. As far is Italy goes I have observed time and time again that Italian men (both here and in Italy) love black women.

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  80. And Italian women (both here and in Italy) love black men.

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  81. hello –

    “Italian men (both here and in Italy) love black women.”

    Italian men love booty in general. It’s generally the shape of the woman that counts, not the skin tone.

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  82. Tangentially, I was looking at Sailer’s new book and I wonder how seriously people outside his established niche will take it. “Halfblood Prince” is a cute title but it doesn’t sound serious and as full of conjecture as the book is he needs all the serious points it can get. That theory about Obama’s mom teaching him black racialism and absent Daddy worship to spite her workadaddy Asian husband in favor of her sexy African husband because black men are more attractive on the marriage market etc. Granted it makes more sense than 90% of the stuff written about Obama but Steve has definitely become eccentric over the years.

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  83. “If Obama wins, Europe will love us again. This matters to people for whom Europe’s love is important. We call these people betas.”

    Wrong. We call these people G’s who like to swoop fly European girls with ease. And girls all across the bubble for that matter.

    Other countries don’t like when we are run by a bunch of unsophisticatedm un-worldly hicks who love Wal-Mart, country music and Meth.

    – MPM

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  84. The classical black/white one drop divide is unique to America even if other countries (e.g. India) are strongly prejudiced against dark complexions.

    Of course a country like India wouldn’t have a one drop rule. Why would India have a history of a one drop rule when the country is traditionally racially homogenous? America has unique rules like the one drop rule because our history of racial heterogeneity is long, unique and deep. Rampant multicultural diversity and widespread integration issues is a relatively new problem in most other countries in comparison to America so of course they don’t have such rules. But they ARE finding that it’s a lot easier to be holier than thou with America about racial tolerance when they had no other races to tolerate. Now that diversity is increasing at an alarming rate they are not as immune to racist sentiment as they once believed.

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  85. Anyone who has traveled in the 90’s and this decade would understand that.

    – MPM

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  86. I’ve known many Italian-American women, and more than a few Italian women and they’ve all been obsessed with dieting so rigorously that their butts shrink away. Am I just hanging out with weirdos or is making themselves unattractive to Italian men an overt desire? Or is it may the omnipresent fashion industry?

    Quick question: Who’s stunned to hear that Donatella Versace’s daughter is anorexic?

    http://www.monstersandcritics.com/people/news/article_1283931.php

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  87. Other countries don’t like when we are run by a bunch of unsophisticatedm un-worldly hicks who love Wal-Mart, country music and Meth./blockquote>

    Well then fuck ’em. The military has always been heavily made up of hicks, and I’m sure those Europeans had no problem with them when that hick-filled military lent them a hand in WWII then helped Europe reconstruct afterwards with the Marshall Plan. And if the shit ever hits the fan with radical Islam and terrorism and it becomes a full-fledged war, what are the big-city liberals and jet-setters they love so much now going to do for them, throw a latte at the bad guys and deter suicide bombers by popping bottles? No, they’ll be begging the hicks in our military for help.

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  88. “hello
    And Italian women (both here and in Italy) love black men.”

    any proof of that?

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  89. on November 4, 2008 at 6:43 am Maxwell Demon

    @ Ricky Raw–some Europeans had a big problem when our military intervened in WWII. Specifically, the Germans and Italians. Also the Brits and the Russians fought their balls off. Plus, stop taking credit for your grandfather’s achievements. You sound like a Bush or a McCain.

    P.S. I was in the military and I’m not a hick, nor were the blacks, hispanics, filipinos, etc. who I served with. There were some hicks, but plenty of big city folk as well. You better ask somebody.

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  90. “Let’s talk about a fiscal “conservative’s” utter inability to hold onto the biggest surplus in U.S. history.”

    I am so sick of this stupid myth…

    The ONLY reason there was any surplus during the Clinton administration was because Clinton and the Republican House of Representatives fought like cats and dogs, even to the point of shutting down the government. This temporarily slowed Federal spending during an economic boom which was not caused by either side despite their desires to take credit for it. It was never going to last. Once either party tipped the balance in their favor, run away Federal spending was bound to resume. And resume it did!

    And the surpluses which did occur were NOT the “biggest in U.S. history.” Liberals seem to have a serious problem understanding the concept of inflation. And an even more serious problem converting budget numbers from different years to a constant base dollar for an accurate comparison. Example: Obama, a man running for the highest office in the U.S., actually claimed in one debate that Bush doubled the national debt from $5 to $10 trillion. That’s only true if you completely ignore inflation and fail to compare the numbers in a common base currency. If you have a brain and a basic understanding of economics, a quick calculation reveals that it went up, but did not double in any real sense. But why should I expect a man running for president to understand anything about economics? Why should I expect liberals to take the time to understand the numbers they quote?

    “Let’s talk about those things.”

    Let’s talk about the fact that multiple sources have projected Obama’s budget deficits, if he actually follows through on his promises, at $1 trillion PER YEAR. That’s a long way from “Clinton’s” surpluses Mr. Skeptic.

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  91. #88 r:

    What do you want, a Harvard study? The Italian and Italian American women I’ve known have been likelier on average to date black men than the WASPs I’ve known.

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  92. “Well then fuck ‘em.”

    Bad play. Not the best way to get respect from foreign countries. Or foreign girls.

    “The military has always been heavily made up of hicks, and I’m sure those Europeans had no problem with them when that hick-filled military lent them a hand in WWII”

    The old WWII stand by. That was a long time ago. News Just in…there were a lot of Big City Liberals fighting too. Probably more. I would like to see some stats on that.

    We are not as tough as we used to be. I doubt our military could beat a 12 year old Russian girl packing a No.2 pencil these days.

    Bullies always got thumped on my playground.

    “what are the big-city liberals and jet-setters they love so much now going to do for them, throw a latte at the bad guys”

    I drink double espresso. I actually threw one in a guys face one time.

    I got the unanimous decision.

    – MPM

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  93. Dan: You give liberals too much credit on their economic ignorance. An inflation adjustment on the debt would be a start, but most government tax and spending statistics should also be divided by population to be meaningful. As far as deficits and debts go, looking at them as a percentage of GDP would be better still. We could also look at the % of GDP spent on debt service: if interest rates go up or down, the cost of carrying that debt goes up or down also.

    multiple sources have projected Obama’s budget deficits, if he actually follows through on his promises, at $1 trillion PER YEAR.

    Both Obama’s and McCain’s economic plans don’t even come close to adding up. Let’s be real. Income tax revenues, after growing nicely the previous few years, are now rapidly tanking. On the spending side, in addition to all the bailout money the government is shelling out, we’re going to have extra outlays as unemployment increases, etc. So even if we don’t pass any new laws, deficits are going to go way up.

    If you add new spending programs and new tax cuts on top of that, it’s going to get real ugly real fast. For example, there’s talk of a second “stimulus package”… being pushed mostly by Democrats, of course. The last one added $150B to the debt. How much more will the next one add?

    Democrats like to pretend that they’ll pay for everything by repealing the Bush tax cuts for the rich. Never mind that this repeal is already in the budget baseline numbers, because the tax cuts are set to expire… so in reality this won’t pay for anything at all. Even ignoring that, they say they only want to take away tax cuts for people earning $250K. At that point we’re not talking about a whole lot of total dollars of extra tax revenue. If you really wanted to raise a lot of extra tax revenue, you’d repeal the exact opposite parts of the tax cuts: the 10% bracket, the doubled child tax credit, and the marriage penalty reduction. Now *that* would bring in a lot of extra cash to the Treasury.

    After the election, it’s just a matter of time until the talk goes from “new spending and new tax cuts” to “how much are we going to raise taxes by, and on whom.”

    Unfortunately the tax hikes we get will probably be designed in the worst possible way. Instead of removing unjustified deductions and credits (e.g. the federal deduction for state and local taxes) from the tax code while keeping rates low, we’ll probably get rate increases and new loopholes.

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  94. In Brazil there is more interracial mixing than in America, but social mobility is much worse for blacks in Brazil relative to whites than in America. The economic and social plight of blacks in Brazil is much worse, both absolutely and relatively compared with whites. It’s rarer for blacks to enter the middle and upper classes, and the hegemony at the top is more white. (This isn’t out of my ass, there have been plenty of sociology papers with hard data on this in the last 20 years)

    Furthermore, until recently it was taboo for anybody to challenge the myth of “racial democracy” in Brazil. So pointing out racial inequality at all was treated as a form of racism or extremism. So unlike American blacks, Brazilian blacks weren’t even socially permitted to politically organize or discuss or criticize their social position.

    Recently, in the last 15 years or so, this has changed a lot though and we’ve seen the rise of racial quotas and affirmative action and black politics in Brazil.

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  95. David,

    “Somehow, Canada still has a fond place in my heart as a magical “racist-free” land.”

    Canada has all the same “mysterious” social and economic inequalities as any other country with blacks. But Canada also has a better immigration system than America, permitting only highly skilled immigrants. It’s one of the few developed countries where the net test scores of immigrants are higher than the native test scores. So the blacks that are ALLOWED into Canada are higher IQ blacks like you and your family. The children of these immigrants regress to a lower mean, but they still have higher IQs than American blacks.

    “Racism” is what inequalities between blacks and whites are called. But it’s very simple to eliminate “racism”. Start a new country with a white majority with an IQ of 100 and a carefully selected black minority with a mean IQ of 105. And, viola, “racism” disappears and suddenly blacks are outperforming whites.

    In other words, any country with “non-racist” immigration policies, like America, which permits the entry of millions of low skilled nonwhites, will ultimately be known as the “racist” country in the long run, because it will have massive racial inequality, and the only socially permitted interpretation of such inequalities is white racism.

    On the other hand any country with a “racist’ immigration policy, that permits only high IQ immigrants.. and thus high numbers of whites and Asians.. will ultimately be known as the “non-racist” country in the long run, because it will have fewer racial inequalities.

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  96. Roissy, Good post. Five stars.

    To bad the country’s doomed.

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  97. ” But that doesn’t negate the glaring fact that the US white population is, in the mean, far more racist in its deeply-embedded cultural attitudes than the Brazilian white population.

    In Brazil, there was a lot more interracial mixing through the years”

    This is not a “fact”. See above. Data does not support you.

    Has “I fuck black chicks” EVER helped anyone escape an accusation of racism? I don’t recall liberals ever finding this excuse persuasive in America, but when the cause is right.. like trying to argue what a non-racist utopia a communist shit-hole like Cuba is.. jungle fever is suddenly proof positive of racial enlightenment.

    Slavery in Latin America was much more harsh than in North America, and part of that was that LA slave owners were much more likely to rape slaves and use them for sex than Christian Anglo slave owners. So the Latin American population is much more mixed, and this is evidence of a worse racial history, not a better one.

    As I said, IQ is a much more persuasive explanation for racial inequality than “racism”, but to the extent that a population is mixed, it is just as capable of institutional and interpersonal racial discrimination as an unmixed population. It doesn’t need to conform to some unrealistic idea about what “logical” racist behavior should look like. A mulatto population can easily oppress a black population, and a mestizo population can easily oppress an Indian population. And there are many examples of both.

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  98. Steve Sailer has written about Mexico, where high-IQ mestizos marry with white girls thus having children that are both lighter-skinned and more inteligent than their low-IQ brothers.

    The same applies in Brazil, with blacks in the underclass. NO matter what you do in Brazil or Mexico, any black/indian with means (which, besides sport/music industries means high IQ) will marry a white girl.

    You can put a dozen blacks in the brazilian senate, they will all marry whte girls, and so will their children, so in two or three generations you have only whites in the upperclass.

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  99. P.S. I was in the military and I’m not a hick, nor were the blacks, hispanics, filipinos, etc. who I served with. There were some hicks, but plenty of big city folk as well. You better ask somebody.

    I didn’t say it was unanimously hick, but the military is disproportionately made up of hicks and poor blacks, especially at the lower levels.

    Bad play. Not the best way to get respect from foreign countries. Or foreign girls.

    If someone is showing me respect, then I’ll worry about respecting them too. If someone is disrespecting my country, then who cares if I get their respect? I repeat, fuck ’em. Why are we so obsessed with whether they respect us or not? You can stand up for your country and still get foreign women if you truly have game. You can be conservative and still get liberal women if you have game.

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  100. We are in the midst of the End Days of America. There will be no Savior. There will be no President who can change our course. The killing blow was unleashed decades ago and the fist is only now beginning to strike.

    I believe it. I heard a 3rd grader tell me this yesterday. He also said something about China and World Domination. What is it with the human desire to predict the unexpected and the unlikely?

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  101. Roissy proclaimeth:

    “Re: the stock market meltdown. There is a difference between deregulation and bad regulation. The current financial problems are a result of the latter.”

    Ha! First of all, it’s not just a “stock market meltdown”. That is wishful thinking.

    This is the final collapse of the Anglo-Saxon model of laissez-faire capitalism, which the US has tried to foist onto the world for well over 100 years.

    With regard to your point on deregulation, I think you’re splitting hairs. What you said is the emerging party line of the GOP and the financial industry lobby.

    If you want to be academically anal about it, there was some deregulation and some new bad regulation (like aspects of Sarbanes-Oxley). The real problem that did the financial markets in, though, was LAX REGULATION.

    Deregulation = eliminating old regulations, regardless of the outcome. (This always needs to be done with extreme caution.)

    Bad regulation = sloppily adding new regulations which have unintended deleterious consequences.

    LAX REGULATION = failure of the regulatory apparatus to keep up with emerging trends. In this case, the derivatives markets, CDOs, credit-default swaps, hedge funds, etc.

    Lax regulation is ideologically joined at the hip to the “deregulation” mindset, in that those who are deregulationists also advocate lax regulation, because they are fundamentally anti-regulation.

    So there is really no practical difference between those who advocate deregulation and those who advocated the lax regulation which caused the global financial collapse. They are birds of an ideological feather. It is the siren’s song of all laissez-faire conservatives and economic libertarians.

    No, this isn’t just a stock market meltdown, my friend. What we are seeing is the waning of the US-dominated world and the Anglo-Saxon model of capitalism. We are seeing that this will not be a mere gradual demise, but one punctuated by discrete catastrophic events, such as the current crisis.

    It’s the opening shot in the rise of the age of China, Asia and a Eurasian system of much more regulated capitalism, and a qualitatively different way of organizing society. Mark my words on this.

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  102. Here’s my two cents as a (socially-white) Brazilian lurker in this site.

    RainAnd (#94) got it right when he said that

    “In Brazil there is more interracial mixing than in America, but social mobility is much worse for blacks in Brazil relative to whites than in America. The economic and social plight of blacks in Brazil is much worse, both absolutely and relatively compared with whites. It’s rarer for blacks to enter the middle and upper classes, and the hegemony at the top is more white”

    The point is, in Brazil social mobility FOR ANYONE has been all but nonexistent with just a few regional and chronological exceptions. Few people born in a poor family, of whatever race, will get rich, no matter their talents. (Of course it can happen over generations, as it did in my family, but most of Brazil hasn’t ever been a “land of opportunity” as America has). This has obvious effects on race relations since Brazilian blacks belong overwhelmingly to the underclass (but the contrary is not true: the Brazilian underclass is almost evenly divided between black and white – or “white” for you Americans). The slave trade in Brazil continued until 1850, slavery until 1888, and large-scale industrialization (to give jobs and therefore opportunity to the underclass) would only begin after the 1930s.

    Discrimination did and does exist, but it has always been of the informal or “institutional” kind. No Jim Crow laws here, and interracial marriages have always been legal – and have happened – even in colonial times, under slavery and all. (Note I said “marriages”, not only liaisons).

    You Americans must know how difficult it is to find and fight this institutional discrimination, and it only gets harder when the whole society is poorer than the United States. And it is hard to disentangle just how much of the sufferings of the black poor are due to race and to social class.

    RainAnd (#94) continues:

    “Furthermore, until recently it was taboo for anybody to challenge the myth of “racial democracy” in Brazil. So pointing out racial inequality at all was treated as a form of racism or extremism. So unlike American blacks, Brazilian blacks weren’t even socially permitted to politically organize or discuss or criticize their social position” .

    This is not true. Since the 1960s, it has been taboo to **support** the myth of racial democracy, since only “conservatives” would do that, and all good elite Brazilians know these people shouldn’t exist. And Brazilian blacks have been organizing since the 1930s – after a false start in the late nineteenth century (freed slaves organized a Black Guard to safeguard the monarchy which had delivered them in expectation of further gains, and were left on the street when the monarchy was toppled in 1889). What is true is that these black organizations have had minimal influence until the 1970s, simply because black Brazilians did not – and many still do not – identify as “black” in a black-white dichotomy which is very recent in Brazil.

    What changed in the 1970s? Brazilian blacks saw the success of the civil rights movement in the US. This opened many more eyes to the realities of discrimination as it did and does exist in Brazil, although it also led, IMHO, to an understandable exaggeration of this discrimination. Intellectuals like to exaggerate their victimhood, especially if they are well-off members of an impoverished group. Join this with a uniformly leftist intelligentsia and you get political mobilization of black Brazilians as such for the first time.

    Today, Brazil has a Ministry of Racial Equality and is busy implementing affirmative action policies. If this is complicated even in America, imagine its application in a country where well over half the population is neither black nor white. Where to draw the boundaries? In a recent case, two biracial identical twin brothers applied for affirmative action vacancies in a university which screened applicants to guarantee the vacancies went to “real blacks” (This is Nazi-style for me, but there is no alternative but ditch the whole program. Even I, who am socially white for all purposes, can claim and prove black ancestors). Well, each of the brothers went there in different days, and one of them was judged black and therefore worthy, and the other not-black and therefore unworthy, by the same people. I may be wrong, but I don’t think this happens in America.

    In any case, I’m an optimist. I think this whole process has made Brazilians face some unwelcome realities, and that affirmative action and other such policies, despite their economic cost for a country that is still poor, and occasional inequities, will increase social solidarity. As for the class divide, well… let’s change the subject.

    Enough already…

    Like


  103. The classical black/white one drop divide is unique to America even if other countries (e.g. India) are strongly prejudiced against dark complexions.

    The only other country that has any even rough equivalent to America’s one-drop rule is, of all places, New Zealand. Citizens of New Zealand who can demonstrate that they have even the slightest amount of Maori ancestry can choose to vote for certain election lists. They get no other tangible benefits, such as affirmative action, so the one-drop rule is far less advantageous than it is in America.

    Peter

    Like


  104. In a recent case [in Brazil], two biracial identical twin brothers applied for affirmative action vacancies in a university which screened applicants to guarantee the vacancies went to “real blacks” (This is Nazi-style for me, but there is no alternative but ditch the whole program. Even I, who am socially white for all purposes, can claim and prove black ancestors). Well, each of the brothers went there in different days, and one of them was judged black and therefore worthy, and the other not-black and therefore unworthy, by the same people. I may be wrong, but I don’t think this happens in America.

    You are correct, that would not happen in America. All racial and ethnic classification relies solely on self-identification. In other words, if you identify yourself as being of a particular racial or ethnic group, your word will be accepted without question and without any regard to what you actually look like. The mere suggestion of any kind of screening program would get universal condemnation.

    With regard to the specific case you mentioned, both of the brothers would qualify for affirmative action in America given their biracial status (as you would, too). A person who is of 100% black African ancestry is treated the same as a person who appears completely Caucasian but has a black great-great-great-great grandparent.

    Peter

    Like


  105. on November 4, 2008 at 2:54 pm Seeking_Alpha

    Ha! First of all, it’s not just a “stock market meltdown”. That is wishful thinking.

    This is the final collapse of the Anglo-Saxon model of laissez-faire capitalism, which the US has tried to foist onto the world for well over 100 years.

    Actually it’s this supposed “collapse” that is – masochistically – wishful thinking. If we get a serious recession, we’ll probably see growth drop by 2 to 5% in 2009 and a return to growth in 2010. There is no question that five years from now our economy will be larger and our per capita wealth and income will be higher than it is today. The Anglo-Saxon model of laissez-faire capitalism has turned poor societies into rich ones for the past 100 years. Witness South Korea’s growth, India’s growth, Japan’s growth, China’s growth, Hong Kong’s growth, UKs growth after Thatcher, USs growth after Reagan, etc., etc.

    Although none of those countries (with the exception of Hong Kong) have embraced our policies fully (as well they shouldn’t… abrupt change leads to Russia in the 90s, i.e. a disaster), the trend is always the same… more laissez-faire, faster rise in living standards.

    Meanwhile, continental Europe has lagged behind America and the UK in both living standards and economic growth. I wonder how smart guys like Roosh are feeling who bragged about converting their savings to Euros when it was 1.60. I wonder how it feels to lose 20% of your cash in 3 months. That’s about the same as if you had invested in the S&P.

    Like


  106. Joe,

    The problem is not lax regulation, but bad regulation. The Community Reinvestment Act forced the banks to lend money to the non-credit-worthy, which led to the mortgage crisis. Those out-of-control, dangerous, unregulated hedge funds did better than the banks, because nobody was coming along to bail out their losses.

    I’ll bet you’re wrong on the waning of capitalism. It’s the only economic system that works.

    Like


  107. on November 4, 2008 at 2:57 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @ Myself – we’ll probably see growth drop by 2 to 5% in 2009 and a return to growth in 2010.

    Let me state that clearer:

    We’ll probably see the economy contract by 2 to 5% in 2009 and a return to growth in 2010.

    Like


  108. It’s the opening shot in the rise of the age of China, Asia and a Eurasian system of much more regulated capitalism, and a qualitatively different way of organizing society. Mark my words on this.

    Considering that you’ve been massively refuted on everything else you’ve said in this thread, we’ll be holding our breath, thanks.

    Like


  109. @105

    Seeking Alpha said:

    “The Anglo-Saxon model of laissez-faire capitalism has turned poor societies into rich ones for the past 100 years. Witness South Korea’s growth, India’s growth, Japan’s growth, China’s growth, Hong Kong’s growth, UKs growth after Thatcher, USs growth after Reagan, etc., etc.”

    I think you’re confusing the Anglo-Saxon model of capitalism with the broader notion of capitalism. Yes, most of Asia has adopted capitalism, but by and large, not the Anglo-Saxon model, except perhaps in Hong Kong.

    South Korea – where do chaebol exist in the anglophone world today? South Korea has a much more tightly structured form of capitalism.

    India – much more regulated and really a mixed economy, with lots of what we’d call “socialism”.

    Japan – where has there ever been a federal agency like MITI in the US? The entire Japanese model is almost the antithesis of the Anglo-Saxon way. When major industries get into trouble, the state steps in to stop mass layoffs, etc. The social safety net is regarded as sacrosanct, not something to be wantonly slashed so that the corporate sector can enjoy a bigger free ride.

    UK under Thatcher and USA under Reagan – of course they were the epitome of AS capitalism… exactly my point.

    Like


  110. on November 4, 2008 at 3:07 pm Married But Cool

    I’m sorry, but I don’t buy this “End Days of America” bullshit. I personally do fear an Obama presidency, and as usual, Roissy is money on most of this post. But people, lets get real about predicting the end of this country. We simply will not let that happen.

    Like


  111. Could you imagine this happening in any sport, at any level in America?

    Very true the “hate crimes” and racism in America are made up by blacks themselves. No monkey chants needed. See Professor Constantine, Duke fake rape case for more…

    Like


  112. on November 4, 2008 at 3:10 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @ Joe T – With South Korea and Japan, you’re right. They are less AS capitalist then us. They also grow slower than us. India, as a trend, is very capitalist, but they have a huge legacy bureaucracy that is slowing their growth (which is why their more regulated economy is growing slower than China’s). Their SEZs, where Laissez-Faire is in place, are growing much quicker.

    As for UK and US… your point is wrong then. Is your point that America is worse off now then we were before Thatcher and Reagan took office? Both of our countries were suffering from low growth and high inflation. Now it’s the opposite.

    No country is one system or another. But if you rank each country along a spectrum of more or less AS capitalism, you’ll see that those closest to the AS side are the fastest growing and have the highest living standards, and those that are closest to the European side are the slowest growing and have stagnating or declining living standards.

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  113. And China’s growth – definitely NOT an example of Anglo-Saxon capitalism. State-owned or state-guided industries, strong national industrial policy, etc. Very dirigiste. Also the stated policy is to improve worker rights and benefits and improve the overall standard of living of the people. China passed a sweeping new labor law this year which dramatically increased labor rights in real ways, which have actually hurt foreign (ie, US) companies doing business there to the point where many American companies have pulled out, or are planning to.

    China knows they can do this, because their economy is now about 60-70% decoupled from the US. The current financial crisis and recession/depression will be hard on China, but as whatever doesn’t kill them will make them stronger, and this will definitely not kill them. They’ll emerge from this effectively 80-90% decoupled from the US. Even with the global downturn/collapse, their annual growth rates have slowed from what? 10 percent down to 5 percent?

    Like


  114. on November 4, 2008 at 3:21 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @ Joe T China knows they can do this, because their economy is now about 60-70% decoupled from the US. The current financial crisis and recession/depression will be hard on China, but as whatever doesn’t kill them will make them stronger, and this will definitely not kill them. They’ll emerge from this effectively 80-90% decoupled from the US.

    These statistics compiled by the MakeItUp Foundation.

    China’s growth isn’t in the state-owned or state-guided industries. The majority of their growth has occured in the coastal regions and specifically the SEZs where the rules are more lax than the rest of the country.

    As to their implementation of new worker rules… they’re not doing it because they think it will help their growth, they’re doing it because they’re an authoritarian state whose legitimacy rests on balancing economic growth with social harmony and they’re afraid of widening wealth gaps between the interior and the coast.

    Furthermore, I noticed you dodged the question of whether America or the UK was better off in 1978 or 2008. It’s smart to dodge because there is no contest.

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  115. “We are in the midst of the End Days of America. There will be no Savior. There will be no President who can change our course. The killing blow was unleashed decades ago and the fist is only now beginning to strike.”

    🙂

    God bless Canada!

    And may I point out that our beaver is much better then your beaver!

    Like


  116. @Seeking Alpha:

    ‘Furthermore, I noticed you dodged the question of whether America or the UK was better off in 1978 or 2008. It’s smart to dodge because there is no contest.”

    OK, the answer is that the long-term fundamentals of our economy were actually still much better in 1978 than they are now. Now we’re clinging to a few rocks on the edge of a cliff.

    We’ve decimated our manufacturing base and fucked ourselves over in so many ways I’m not even gonna begin to enumerate them now.

    Besides, it’s 7:30 am here and I have to go out and rally for an Obama victory!

    Like


  117. on November 4, 2008 at 3:36 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @ 116 OK, the answer is that the long-term fundamentals of our economy were actually still much better in 1978 than they are now. Now we’re clinging to a few rocks on the edge of a cliff.

    A very scary metaphor. Maybe scary enough to distract me from your complete lack of facts? The fundamentals of our economy are much stronger today than they were 30 years ago. That is an economic fact.

    Like


  118. Besides, it’s 7:30 am here and I have to go out and rally for an Obama victory!

    So you’re unemployed then. Why am I not surprised…

    Like


  119. @118

    No, I’m self-employed in the sense that I can take a day off whenever the hell I like.

    Like


  120. 115 Above&Under

    I like Canada very much. It is really going to suck for you guys as you will be living next to a country that is on the way to massive civil disorder, economic dislocation, increasing and increasingly ineffective attempts at maintaining “order” and inevitable civil conflict involving combat. This will spill over into Canada (and much of the rest of the world) in an very unpleasant way. Think the former Yugoslavia, but bigger angrier and crazier. I spent some time over there during their troubles and was terrified most of the time, but also learned a thing or two.
    Roissy is correct in that we are living at the end of an era. It is going to be very unpleasant and some of us posting here won’t survive. I recommend that everybody start preparing for the inevitable insanity instead of just being at the mercy of events.

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  121. @101 — Not correct by a longshot. I give you the excellent analysis by George Reisman – http://www.georgereisman.com/blog/ =:

    [Begin Quote]

    The utter absurdity of statements claiming that the present political-economic environment of the United States in some sense represents laissez-faire capitalism becomes as glaringly obvious as anything can be when one keeps in mind the extremely limited role of government under laissez-faire and then considers the following facts about the present-day United States.

    1) Government spending in the United States currently equals more than forty percent of national income, i.e., the sum of all wages and salaries and profits and interest earned in the country. This is without counting any of the massive off-budget spending such as that on account of the government enterprises Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Nor does it count any of the recent spending on assorted “bailouts.” What this means is that substantially more than forty dollars of every one hundred dollars of output are appropriated by the government against the will of the individual citizens who produce that output. The money and the goods involved are turned over to the government only because the individual citizens wish to stay out of jail. Their freedom to dispose of their own incomes and output is thus violated on a colossal scale. In contrast, under laissez-faire capitalism, government spending would be on such a modest scale that a mere revenue tariff might be sufficient to support it. The corporate and individual income taxes, inheritance and capital gains taxes, and social security and Medicare taxes would not exist.

    2) There are presently fifteen federal cabinet departments, nine of which exist for the very purpose of respectively interfering with housing, transportation, healthcare, education, energy, mining, agriculture, labor, and commerce, and virtually all of which nowadays routinely ride roughshod over one or more important aspects of the economic freedom of the individual. Under laissez faire capitalism, eleven of the fifteen cabinet departments would cease to exist and only the departments of justice, defense, state, and treasury would remain. Within those departments, moreover, further reductions would be made, such as the abolition of the IRS in the Treasury Department and the Antitrust Division in the Department of Justice.

    3) The economic interference of today’s cabinet departments is reinforced and amplified by more than one hundred federal agencies and commissions, the most well-known of which include, besides the IRS, the FRB and FDIC, the FBI and CIA, the EPA, FDA, SEC, CFTC, NLRB, FTC, FCC, FERC, FEMA, FAA, CAA, INS, OHSA, CPSC, NHTSA, EEOC, BATF, DEA, NIH, and NASA. Under laissez-faire capitalism, all such agencies and commissions would be done away with, with the exception of the FBI, which would be reduced to the legitimate functions of counterespionage and combating crimes against person or property that take place across state lines.

    4) To complete this catalog of government interference and its trampling of any vestige of laissez faire, as of the end of 2007, the last full year for which data are available, the Federal Register contained fully seventy-three thousand pages of detailed government regulations. This is an increase of more than ten thousand pages since 1978, the very years during which our system, according to one of The New York Times articles quoted above, has been “tilted in favor of business deregulation and against new rules.” Under laissez-faire capitalism, there would be no Federal Register. The activities of the remaining government departments and their subdivisions would be controlled exclusively by duly enacted legislation, not the rule-making of unelected government officials.

    5) And, of course, to all of this must be added the further massive apparatus of laws, departments, agencies, and regulations at the state and local level. Under laissez-faire capitalism, these too for the most part would be completely abolished and what remained would reflect the same kind of radical reductions in the size and scope of government activity as those carried out on the federal level.

    What this brief account has shown is that the politico-economic system of the United States today is so far removed from laissez-faire capitalism that it is closer to the system of a police state than to laissez-faire capitalism. The ability of the media to ignore all of the massive government interference that exists today and to characterize our present economic system as one of laissez-faire and economic freedom marks it as, if not profoundly dishonest, then as nothing less than delusional.

    Government Intervention Actually Responsible for the Crisis

    Beyond all this is the further fact that the actual responsibility for our financial crisis lies precisely with massive government intervention, above all the intervention of the Federal Reserve System in attempting to create capital out of thin air, in the belief that the mere creation of money and its being made available in the loan market is a substitute for capital created by producing and saving. This is a policy it has pursued since its founding, but with exceptional vigor since 2001, in its efforts to overcome the collapse of the stock market bubble whose creation it had previously inspired.

    [End Quote]

    Like


  122. Cthulu/Roissy ’08 !

    Eat the betas first !

    Like


  123. on November 4, 2008 at 3:58 pm Sgt. Joe Friday

    Obama is going to turn out to be Hugo Chavez, only dressed nicer and with better manners.

    One thing that no one has remarked on is that we will once again have a first family with children in the WH. Past first families have insisted that the press leave their children alone, “so that they can have something close to a ‘normal’ childhood.” Bull. Politicians want their kids to be left alone, because kids have an annoying habit of repeating what they hear mom and dad say. I am just praying for one of Obama’s girls to blurt out “my mommy says that so-and-so is a cracker” or something like that.

    Like


  124. on November 4, 2008 at 4:10 pm Married But Cool

    “I am voting for Obama because even on a sinking liferaft, I am for sharing the dwindling resources of that raft so that everyone, even the weak and the despised, have an equal share.”

    Get a damned job, and get your own fucking resources. Keep your paws off my shit.

    Like


  125. on November 4, 2008 at 4:11 pm secret asian man

    Joe: And China’s growth – definitely NOT an example of Anglo-Saxon capitalism. State-owned or state-guided industries, strong national industrial policy, etc. Very dirigiste. Also the stated policy is to improve worker rights and benefits and improve the overall standard of living of the people. China passed a sweeping new labor law this year which dramatically increased labor rights in real ways, which have actually hurt foreign (ie, US) companies doing business there to the point where many American companies have pulled out, or are planning to.

    Further proof that yes, liberals do love despot Communist regimes.

    Like


  126. on November 4, 2008 at 4:13 pm Married But Cool

    “”*Obama’s “alleged” Edwards-style mistress, i.e. young, attractive campaign worker, known to have spent time alone with him overnight in a hotel, exiled to Bermuda and suddenly working, for a considerable sum, as an investment manager (despite no experience in the matter) for Mayor Daley’s Building Inspector, who seems to have a lot of money.””

    Are you serious? Where did you hear of this?

    Like


  127. @ 126, her name is Vera Baker and she has been rumored to be Obama’s mistress. From what I’ve seen, she’s a marginal improvement lookswise over Michelle, but definitely an improvement, at least a strong 6 to Michelle’s 5. Suprisingly (sarcasm) no one in the media mentions it much.

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  128. “Also the stated policy is to improve worker rights and benefits and improve the overall standard of living of the people.”

    That was a real howler.

    Like


  129. “she’s a marginal improvement lookswise over Michelle” – that’s really not saying much – one of the funnier things I’ve heard over the last week is how the role of Michelle Obama in any made-for-TV movie of the campaign should be given to Patrick Ewing.

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  130. I was thinking a clean shaven Chris Rock, but Pat Ewing works too.

    Here is a pic of the rumored mistress. I take it back, she is not especially hot, but she is definitely a big improvement compared to Michelle:
    http://www.blackfivemedia.net/archives/92

    Like


  131. BTW if you want some idea on how biased the European media has been, they did a poll here on who we’d vote for. The results would be Obama 58.7 % and McCain… 7.4 %!

    It’s impossible to escape hearing the media on Obama daily even when you don’t have a TV and make no attempt to follow the election… but a *lot* of people still have never even heard of John McCain.

    Like


  132. Chris Rock has too much charisma. Ewing can just sit there in a wig grunting and flapping those long, stringy-bicep arms. It’ll be hard to tell the difference.

    Like


  133. jaakkeli, i still say in touch with europeans i met on vacation, and they have been bombarding me with more obama propaganda than the libs i know here! sadly, though, the libs here know as little about obama’s policies and beliefs as the europeans do.

    Like


  134. “…sadly, though, the libs here know as little about obama’s policies and beliefs as the europeans do.”

    They don’t want to know. Europeans maybe have an excuse, liberals in the US don’t.

    Like


  135. on November 4, 2008 at 5:17 pm Married But Cool

    Patrick Ewing! God that is so funny. I never saw this, but it has been there right in front of my face. Hysterical.

    The media took out John Edwards on this issue because he was an outlier….inconsequential. No way this would come out with Obama if true.

    Like


  136. on November 4, 2008 at 5:26 pm Large Hadron Collider

    Wrapping my vote around my LHC penis makes for an enticing treat for all you .. Republican Senators!

    Suck it Republican Senators!

    Like


  137. @ 135 Married but Cool – the media sat on it for John Edwards as long as they could until it was undeniable. If it ever reached the point of being undeniable for Obama too then and only then it would have been discussed.

    Like


  138. Well, as much as I hate to admit this (since I consider both of them quite loathesome) I dissent from the prevailing opinion here about Michelle. I’d rate her a 7.5 at least–possiblly up to 8.2.

    Like


  139. on November 4, 2008 at 5:36 pm Seeking_Alpha

    That’s a man. 7.5 is the hot girl in your Spanish class.

    Like


  140. I’d rate her a 7.5 at least–possiblly up to 8.2.

    Out of 15?

    Like


  141. Out of 100…

    Like


  142. http://scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=364
    Voting can be cost-effective charity: high impact, low probability.

    Like


  143. on November 4, 2008 at 5:58 pm Comment_To_The_Moron

    This is directed at the moron who claimed Brazil isn’t racist.

    Brazil has more inequality than even America.

    http://www.brazzil.com/articles/194-july-2008/10080-so-rich-brazil-so-many-poor-brazilians.html
    8 million of Brazil’s 127 million voters are illiterate, they can not read or write AT ALL.
    73 million of Brazil’s 127 million voters didn’t complete 4th grade.

    So to the monkey’s that claim the “Brazilian Tiger” will ‘erupt’, the choosen method of ensuring the Proper Outcome in Brazil is to deny the poor and ‘darkies’ any education at all. This has the effect of keeping Brazil a worthless mess, because 73 million of 127 million working voting adults HAVE NOT FINISHED FOURTH GRADE.

    This problem isn’t going to be fixed by singing happy songs.

    So, to the smug idiot raving about egalitarian Brazil.

    You are a total moron.

    Like


  144. “We are in the midst of the End Days of America… .The killing blow was unleashed decades ago and the fist is only now beginning to strike.”

    Correct. What we are seeing is the result of actions unleashed decades ago.

    A more important question: what do white heterosexual European-derived men who are wearing a target on their chests in this slow downfall do to protect themselves and their future?

    The Democrats, the feminists, the radicals, the gays, the minorities are all out to basically destroy the one demographic group that subsdizes everyone.

    The one group that has basically built civilization.

    The important question in my mind. Letting America go by the wayside because you are outnumbered is one thing.

    Letting YOURSELF be destroyed as a European-derived heterosexual man (and your way of life, your rights as a man, patriarchy) is quite a different story, my friends…

    Like


  145. hey anonymous @144:

    did you drop in to this blog to drop a quick note while you were googling local klan meetings? is it possible that you’re so daft as to not see the absolutely contradictory and ridiculous nature of your argument?

    what civilization did YOU build? you accuse everybody else, but white men of somehow piggybacking on european greatness, while at the same time doing the same thing. nobody is owed anything in this world just for being born and drawing breath. nobody is owed any special regard just because they happen to be born with a certain color skin or a certain organ between their legs. that goes both ways… as i’m sure my friend anonymous does.

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  146. 105 Seeking Alpha:

    The Anglo-Saxon model of laissez-faire capitalism has turned poor societies into rich ones for the past 100 years.

    One leetle fact you are leaving out of this narrative is that the success you speak of was equally due to the vast availability of incredibly cheap energy in the form of oil. No other resource has an EROI like that of oil. The promise of a *seemingly* endless supply of energy is what allowed for many of the “wealth” creating instruments in the finance/banking sector. When debt can’t be serviced by future energy growth, as happens with Peak Oil, it will be a whole different ballgame.

    Future generations will see the massive growth of the 20th century as a curious blip on the otherwise long and brutish road that preceded and followed it.

    Like


  147. 120 BUNKERED

    Then I guess we will have to ask for help from the Mohawks again. Trust me, you don’t want to mess with a Mohawk while you are trying to cross our border through the woods.

    But I do agree, the shit is gonna hit the fan.

    Prepare yourself, hit the gym boys, learn how to survive and be ready to run.

    But lets be honest everybody, it will be beautiful.

    Humanity at its best.

    Good luck.

    Like


  148. on November 4, 2008 at 6:45 pm Married But Cool

    “The Democrats, the feminists, the radicals, the gays, the minorities are all out to basically destroy the one demographic group that subsdizes everyone.”

    Direct hit.

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  149. @ Married but Still a Douche

    “Direct hit.”

    so, that anonymous turd is right on, huh? every registered democrat, every gay person, every member of a minority group is out to “destroy” the endangered white male?

    you guys remind me of the woman in roissy’s post from today. you think everyone is after you; that your whiteness is such a prize. get over yourselves… really. and stop being such bitches.

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  150. on November 4, 2008 at 6:59 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @ 146

    One leetle fact
    Does your argument seem stronger if you use mocking language in your rebuttal? Seems weaker to me.

    As for peak oil, I’m a true believer. There is no doubt there will be short-term economic dislocations. However there is, in fact, another, much better source of energy: the sun. Obviously it’s not there yet, but it’s not particularly far. There’s no question it will be cost-competitive with current electricity rates in ten years.

    Also, one leetle problem with your argument is that cheap oil has been available to everyone and yet only some countries have prospered while others have stagnated or declined.

    Did cheap oil help China under Mao? Venezuela under Chavez? India under… well whoever was in charge up until the economic reforms of ’91? US and UK had the same cheap oil that Europe had under their social-market economy, yet they’ve fallen behind.

    America hit peak oil in the early 70s (71?). Oil has cost more every year since (except ’98) and yet we’ve seen massive economic growth since then.

    Like


  151. BITCHES!

    Like


  152. “I would rather have a glass of pinot noir with Obama than with McCain.”

    It is always better to drink with fighter/attack pilots than with lawyers. ALWAYS.

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  153. UKs growth after Thatcher

    The weird part about the UK is that despite having Margaret Thatcher, the UK isn’t that much richer in terms of GDP when compared to dirigiste France ($2,137,421 Million for UK versus $2,046,899, all PPP per the IMF) and outside of the Southeast of England, some northern urban cores have similarities to the Midwest in terms of a hulled out manufacturing sector. I’ve always wondered if the North Sea oil and gas reserves is the source of the UK’s higher GDP.

    Interestingly, if you look at GDP per capita, the UK sits at $35,634 while France is much lower at $33,509. OTOH, evil socialist Sweden ranks at $36,578, flexcurity based Denmark at $37,265, and Canada at $38,614.

    For shits and giggles, the United States GDP per capita is $45,725.

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  154. on November 4, 2008 at 7:17 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @153 – It’s a fair point, although the problem is the UK, and even the US, is so far from a free market even after 28 years of free market policies that it’s tough to judge any of this objectively.

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  155. Seeking Alpha:

    My intention was not to disparage the free market. You’re preaching to the choir here. I was just pointing out the splendor that free-marketers often point to is just as much a consequence of a unique geophysical fact, and that things will be different moving forward.

    And btw, your reference to solar energy possibly making up the shortfalls — even in 5 or 10 years — is laughable.

    Now please tuck your leetle penis back in its pants. Mine will always be bigger.

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  156. on November 4, 2008 at 7:26 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @155 – Why can’t it make up the shortfall in the long run? I never said it could in the short run. There are production and scaling issues in the technology itself, not to mention the re-design of an economy geared towards a certain energy source mix. I said that it’s close to being price competitive, which I would know, given that I’ve covered the sector in the past. Do you have facts to back up your bravado, or are you all swagger and usually a disappointment… like your leetle penis.

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  157. “As for peak oil, I’m a true believer. There is no doubt there will be short-term economic dislocations.”

    I believe in the model with the caveat that the globe, including the U.S., is no where near the peak. The U.S. only appears to have peaked because we refuse to access our massive shale and offshore resources in the name of the religion of environmentalism (Gaia worship). I have little doubt that the world has large liquid resources remaining as well, particularly in the oceans and Antarctica.

    “However there is, in fact, another, much better source of energy: the sun. Obviously it’s not there yet, but it’s not particularly far. There’s no question it will be cost-competitive with current electricity rates in ten years.”

    I’m not so sure it will be price compeitive in 10 years, though at some point this century it will be.

    If we could maintain the separation of church and state when it comes to Gaia worship, we have an even better source of energy than solar collection: nuclear fission.

    “America hit peak oil in the early 70s (71?). Oil has cost more every year since (except ‘98) and yet we’ve seen massive economic growth since then.”

    Oil hasn’t cost more every year since the 1970’s. http://inflationdata.com/inflation/inflation_Rate/Historical_Oil_Prices_Table.asp

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  158. on November 4, 2008 at 7:36 pm Seeking_Alpha

    I disagree about peak oil and solar, but it’s a complex issue so that’s fine. I promise though that I do this stuff for a living, so I have some familiarity with it.

    As for the 70s comment, I see what you thought I meant. I meant that since 1970 it hasn’t been cheaper than it was in 1970. I didn’t mean that every year was pricier than the last.

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  159. At #143

    To whom is this rant directed? The only claim I’ve seen here is that Brazil is less racist than the U.S., not that it isn’t racist. And the only one saying Brazil is egalitarian is you…

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  160. To others who might be interested: #143 gets the facts right but does not understand them correctly. It is true that “73 million of Brazil’s 127 million voters didn’t complete 4th grade”; this translates to “Brazil is a poor underdeveloped country”, which I’m sure will be no news to anyone here.

    If Brazil is a hellhole for the poor, it is very close to an equal-opportunity hellhole; as I said before, few people born in the underclass with get rich NO MATTER THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN in Brazil. It’s been only a few decades since Brazil reached 50% literacy in the population! (And fifty years of life expectancy as well). Before that, the great majority of the population, black AND white, were illiterates and died early. Sure there are racial disparities – but, again as I said before, it is very difficult to disentangle the “racial” from the “social class” angle here.

    The situation has been improving, though: since the late 1990s, practically all (97-98%) of school-age children are enrolled in schools (government schools, obviously, since very few can pay private schools. I had the luck of studying in a “good” government school – meaning, one that has exams for enrollment and, therefore, higher standards). The great majority of the illiterates we still have are older people who will not now be bothered to learn to read and write in old age, despite the existence of several government programs targeted at them. Illiteracy will level off as they die.

    Now, since we have succeeded into putting children at school and keeping them there, the problem has become the dismal quality of the education these children receive. It’s going to be a bit more difficult solving this…

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  161. @ 149 Lance – one of the biggest problems with all these rants lately is that while there is truth to the claim that white straight men are declining in power and status in population, there is a “blame everyone else” aspect to these rants that is just as bad as the whining one hears from any PC liberal out there. Yes feminists and multiculturalists are winning the culture war right now, and that presents a host of problems, but white men need to cop to the fact that many of these problems are self-created. You can break down most of these problems to several consistent traits in white men:

    – the idea that they can intellectually engineer societies perfectly (socialism and welfare states and hiring quotas and eugenics are examples of this mindset). these always lead to unforseen consequences that are invariably worse than just leaving things be. and his intellectual vanity persists such that his usual solution to fallout from bad policy is to follow it up with more inevitably bad policy rather than just let people and markets and societies correct themselves through human nature. (for example following up bad subprime mortgage regulations with bailouts and new regulations)

    – the love of cheap labor. One can easily see in hindsight how importing another race en masse to be slaves, heavily populating your country with them, denying them education and indoctrinating them into a harsh structure that introduces a lot of social pathologies into the race was pretty shortsighted, then systematically oppress them once they were set free, then out of guilt create a welfare state that rewards them for underachieving in school and having single parent households, thereby creating even MORE social pathologies…all these problems stemmed from that love of cheap labor. Much of the current support for unfettered Mexican immigration to this very day focuses on the cheap labor rationale, showing that whites still haven’t learned their lesson. Ask a white person who opposes illegal reform to this day why he doesn’t mind unfettered Mexican immigration and he’ll blink blankly and say “Who’s going to mow my lawn for cheap?” Whether it’s white business interests on the right who want cheap illegals or it’s white lefties too lazy to clean their own house and mow their own lawns on the left, the white man’s historical love of cheap labor is at the root of many of the problems he currently bitches about.

    – former love of unfettered empire building. this is too in-depth to get into in a comment, but read the works of historian Eric Hobsbawm to see how many of Europe’s current problems are fallout from building empires than losing them. Look at many of these immigrant groups currently “invading” European countries and often there was once a colonial relationship at play. (Although out of all the Europeans, England seems to have been the best at historically colonizing smartly and assimilating foreign cultures better. While still no picnic, their post-colonial backlash doesn;t seem as extreme as, say, France’s.)

    – Kowtowing to radical feminism, then exporting it to other cultures. For anyone who reads this blog, self-explanatory.

    Most race realists only want to be “realistic” when it comes to quibbling over IQ point differentials by race and admonishing other races to be realistic about themselves, but from what I’ve increasingly seen on various sites they are becoming as guilty of blaming everyone but themselves as any liberal group out there.

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  162. on November 4, 2008 at 7:54 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @ T – I think the big problem with your argument re: immigration is that slaves were forced labor. They were dragged over here, emasculated, controlled, and oppressed. The culture of slavery is also a culture of… well laziness is the wrong word, but dependency would be accurate.

    The reason why it isn’t the case with Mexican immigrants (as it wasn’t the case with German, Scotish, Irish, or Asian immigrants earlier who also served as cheap labor) is that they chose to come here. The decision wasn’t made for them… they had to endure an expensive, difficult and dangerous journey to get here. It is the people with the most drive and initiative that come to America. With slavery, that wasn’t the case.

    There’s no doubt that slavery was a dumb idea, no only for the moral reasons, but for the socio-economic reasons you pointed out. I just don’t think that logic applies to Hispanic immigration.

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  163. There’s no doubt that slavery was a dumb idea, no only for the moral reasons, but for the socio-economic reasons you pointed out. I just don’t think that logic applies to Hispanic immigration.

    It does apply to Hispanic immigration because the love of cheap labor is what keeps our immigration enforcement lax. It’s like an open dirty secret. Do you think if this country didn’t really want to, it couldn’t put a serious hurting on the flow of illegal immigrants? Just look at the difference the Minutemen did. Imagine if the national guard was used to reinforce the border. People lobby for lax immigration policies because it benefits them. Big corporations love the cheap labor as do small businesses as do individual middle-class social striver families who don’t want to clean their own homes, cook meals or mow lawns. Look at the arguments of the advocacy groups that oppose hard immigration enforcement or the arguments of satires that oppose immigration enforcement like “A Day Without A Mexican”. It all boils down to “We NEED these Mexicans to do the jobs American won’t do.” Translation of Orwellspeak: “We need Mexicans to do these jobs CHEAPLY that Americans won’t do for peanuts.”

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  164. on November 4, 2008 at 8:14 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @T – So you’re against immigration in general? I’m only against illegal immigration insofar as it’s illegal. We used to have unlimited immigration in this country and I think that’d be beneficial. Our biggest long-term advantage over Japan and Europe is demographics, and the only reason our demographic situation is less bleak than theirs is because of immigration.

    If you’re against immigration in general because you want higher-paying jobs for Americans, that’s no different than wanting high tariffs to keep Americans buying American goods. It doesn’t work. Lower wages also equal lowers costs and the package of the two is always beneficial to Americans as a whole.

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  165. on November 4, 2008 at 8:17 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @T – More to the point, your primary concern with the enslavement and subsequent oppression of African Americans was the social pathologies it created and the socio-economic results of those pathologies. My point was that those pathologies are solely a function of slavery and not cheap labor; a reasonable argument given the history of immigrants to this country who began as cheap labor and later became successfully integrated (Italians, Irish, Germans, Scots, and Chinese).

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  166. I’m not against immigration in general, I’m against illegal immigration in particular. But the advocates who are against harsher immigration enforcement are often against it because of the cheap labor possibilities. Businesses want cheap labors and so does the middle class. Problem is, illegal immigrants are always going to be much cheaper option than legal immigrants, because they aren’t protected by minimum wage laws, meaning you can pay them less and they have no recourse, and also because they don’t get taxes deducted, meaning they are willing to accept lower gross pay since there will be no deductions to their paycheck. This is appealing to the person paying the checks too.

    See the rationale explained in the movie trailer below:

    Now if you need illegal immigration to occur to reap the maximum benefit from cheap labor, you need lax border security. Problem with lax border security though is that you end up letting in the bad with the good, hence the rampant amount of criminals and gangbangers that also cross with the good Mexicans who are just coming over to work. But once again, we have white people letting their desire for cheap labor suck them into a shortsighted solution that will lead to a long-term headache.

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  167. Skeptic
    Let’s talk about our retarded President. Let’s talk about the retarded war in Iraq and LACK of war in Taliban’s home country. Let’s talk about his retarded cabinat nominations like Harriet Meyers. Let’s talk about his lack of spine and the fact his VP has more power than him Let’s talk about a fiscal “conservative’s” utter inability to hold onto the biggest surplus in U.S. history. Let’s talk about those things.

    I agree

    Will someone define the terms conservative and liberal please? Next link presidents Clinton & Bush( I and II) to the appropriate term according to the definition .

    thanks
    .

    thanks:)

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  168. So many paleocon crybabies in this thread. Whining about ‘affirmative action’ because they feel they are owed jobs just because they’re white, whining about ‘feminism’ because they’re too socially inept to get a woman… such an ‘alpha’ attitude we have here. Whiskey and his (rather entertaining) doomsday prophecies and conspiracy theories being the icing on the cake…. yeah, keep telling yourself that Ayers penned Obama’s memoir.

    I don’t have a problem with small government, fiscally conservative Republicanism, just the nutty bible-thumpers who have taken control of their party to further their means. The ones who believe that Jebus and dinosaurs walked the earth together, that the world is less than 6000 years old, that creationism not evolution occurred.

    Mark my words – nothing will happen in 2010 to shift the balance of power over to the Republicans. The party needs a serious realignment of what they actually stand for (is it small government and fiscal conservatism? is it bible-thumping and anti-abortion and ignorance to science? is it neoconservative “secure America’s place in the world” type politics?).

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  169. Whining about ‘affirmative action’ because they feel they are owed jobs just because they’re white

    Aren’t the people who RECEIVE affirmative action actually the ones who believe they are owed jobs just because of their skin color?

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  170. Ricky raw saidOf course a country like India wouldn’t have a one drop rule. Why would India have a history of a one drop rule when the country is traditionally racially homogenous?

    Racially yes
    ethnicity-no

    Well then fuck ‘em. The military has always been heavily made up of hicks, and I’m sure those Europeans had no problem with them when that hick-filled military lent them a hand in WWII then helped Europe reconstruct afterwards with the Marshall Plan. And if the shit ever hits the fan with radical Islam and terrorism and it becomes a full-fledged war, what are the big-city liberals and jet-setters they love so much now going to do for them, throw a latte at the bad guys and deter suicide bombers by popping bottles? No, they’ll be begging the hicks in our military for help.

    I don’t think we rejected France’s help in throwing England off our back either.

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  171. I don’t think we rejected France’s help in throwing England off our back either.

    The difference is, we’re not constantly putting them down either, unless it’s in response to their anti-Americanism.

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  172. rain and:Slavery in Latin America was much more harsh than in North America, and part of that was that LA slave owners were much more likely to rape slaves and use them for sex than Christian Anglo slave owners. So the Latin American population is much more mixed, and this is evidence of a worse racial history, not a better one.
    OH REALLY???
    Free Pus*y is every man’s dream. Only the “half way decent” didn’t take advantage of what they could clearly get away with. The slave-owners in both continents did an equal amount of damage to the bodies of blk women. There are too many blk women who have stories of being sexually abused at the hands of wht slave-owners. The end of slavery did not stop wht men from raping blk women. Many blk women worked as domestic servants and plenty of them have Storm Thurmond stories to tell as well.

    FYI, the laws governing slavery varied throughout different countries in South America. In some countries, a slave could take his/her master to court for mistreatment.

    “Racism” is what inequalities between blacks and whites are called. But it’s very simple to eliminate “racism”. Start a new country with a white majority with an IQ of 100 and a carefully selected black minority with a mean IQ of 105. And, viola, “racism” disappears and suddenly blacks are outperforming whites.
    How does Nazi Germany fit in with your theory?

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  173. “…just the nutty bible-thumpers who have taken control of their party to further their means.”

    Another howler, absolutely hysterical. All the control the religious nutty bible-thumpers have over the Republicans has resulted in what? I’m serious, what have they gotten banned/implemented, etc…over the last 8 years? Is abortion is banned? Being gay is illegal? What has the nutty religious right accomplished? Nothing, absolutely nothing because they have no power, none.

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  174. T saidThe difference is, we’re not constantly putting them down either, unless it’s in response to their anti-Americanism

    Don’t you think this is largely because many Americans are ignorant about the rest of the world beyond sound bits from the world news? I understand that everyone can’t/won’t travel abroad but for an American to have no idea of what’s going on outside of US borders is very sad.

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  175. @173
    The religious-right was able to delay FDA approval of Plan B for many years.

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  176. Whining about ‘affirmative action’ because they feel they are owed jobs just because they’re white

    Aren’t the people who RECEIVE affirmative action actually the ones who believe they are owed jobs just because of their skin color?

    T, I was under the impression that affirmative action was to guarantee the blk kid with a 2100 SAT score & A average wasn’t passed over for the wht kid with a 1900 SAT & b average.

    FYI, Affirmative action is being used at some colleges to make room for more male students. Do you have a problem with that type of affirmative action also?

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  177. chicnoir,
    first we have less vacation time than europeans, so of course we travel much less. an average of two weeks a year is not much travel time at all. second, it makes sense for europeans to be more knowledgeable about other countries considering they are surrounded by dozens of them on a single landmass.

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  178. “Don’t you think this is largely because many Americans are ignorant about the rest of the world beyond sound bits from the world news? I understand that everyone can’t/won’t travel abroad but for an American to have no idea of what’s going on outside of US borders is very sad.”

    So anti-Americanism is the fault of Americans? Of course it is! Put some thought into this, please.

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  179. anony
    @173
    The religious-right was able to delay FDA approval of Plan B for many years.

    Some pharmacists refuse to dispense plan b(& BC) because of their religion.

    I want female pharmacists to refuse to dispense Viagra to unmarried men because fornication is wrong according to their religion.

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  180. Stick to something you know, roissy. Your opinions are shallow and meaningless on greater topics. Trifles make the sum of roissy.

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  181. “Don’t you think this is largely because many Americans are ignorant about the rest of the world beyond sound bits from the world news? I understand that everyone can’t/won’t travel abroad but for an American to have no idea of what’s going on outside of US borders is very sad.”

    Why if only we were more aware, like your average European! I spend lots of time in Europe for work and it simply isn’t true that Europeans are more informed than Americans. This is a myth. But a myth American “sophisticates” love because they can run down their hick countrymen to look cool.

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  182. @ 176 – chic, the point is, anyone who mocks anti-affirmative action people as whiners who expect special treatment based on their race didn’t think out his argument very well at all. Or just likes irony.

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  183. 176 chicnoir

    T, I was under the impression that affirmative action was to guarantee the blk kid with a 2100 SAT score & A average wasn’t passed over for the wht kid with a 1900 SAT & b average.

    Um.

    No way.

    The number of blacks with very good SAT scores is, sadly, microscopic, and there is extreme competition among universities for them. While there may have been a place for affirmative action for them in the past to benefit them (so we could get to the point where we are now), it is certainly no longer needed.

    All affirmative action does now is pass over the white or East Asian kid with the 2100 SAT for the NAM with the 1900 SAT.

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  184. CS
    So anti-Americanism is the fault of Americans? Of course it is! Put some thought into this, please

    Did I say that? No one has attacked me for being an American when I’ve traveled abroad. I think the Fox news people blow the anti-American sentiment found around the rest of the world out of proportion. There are 6 billion people on this planet; not every one of us will agree on every issue, does that surprise anyone?

    CS,why do you think the rest of the world hate Americans?

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  185. “The religious-right was able to delay FDA approval of Plan B for many years.”

    That’s it? They delayed a fucking pill in the FDA bureaucracy? Can you get Plan B now? Of course you can. Were people unable to go to another pharmacy if their druggist refused to sell it when it became available? Was it national policy that druggists not dispense Plan B? Of course not. The fact that Plan B is being cited as some kind of success of the religious right only further demonstrates how feeble they are.

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  186. Chris isn’t the number of 2100+ scoring East Asian students higher than the number of white students. I read a study that said Asian students are losing spots to less qualified whites. The study also mentioned that the Ivy’s could fill all of their seats with highly qualified Asian applicants before needing to look at the packets of white students.

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  187. @173
    The religious-right was able to delay FDA approval of Plan B for many years.

    you know what’s scary about the anti-religion progressives in the US? this is all they can come up with when describing how right-wing christians have oppressed them and ruined their lives, yet they still are more concerned with them over, say, radical Islamic terrorists that want to literally kill them.

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  188. chic, the point is, anyone who mocks anti-affirmative action people as whiners who expect special treatment based on their race didn’t think out his argument very well at all. Or just likes irony

    @T- Let’s be honest, some of those people are whiners.

    John 3:16- The religious right are the reason McCain lost the nomination to Bush a few years ago. Don’t doubt the ability of those people to organize when they want to. They are the reason the Republican Party can’t get a good candidate out of the box so to speak. The Republican Party droped the ball when they let Giuliani get away.

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  189. T saidradical Islamic terrorists that want to literally kill them

    We have been waiting on round two of the radical terrorists for how many years now.

    Peter can speak more on this.

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  190. @T- Let’s be honest, some of those people are whiners.

    it’s not the “whiners” part, it’s the part of AAA’s comment where he/she claims white anti-AA people expect special benefits based on their race. This is a stupid insult to lob because the very essence of affirmative action advocates is special treatment based on race. It’s the pot calling the kettle black.

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  191. Hahahaha. You are a right-wing jackass! Obama!

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  192. chiclet:
    FYI, Affirmative action is being used at some colleges to make room for more male students. Do you have a problem with that type of affirmative action also?

    speaking for myself, yes.
    no AA at all. if that results in more women at colleges, then so be it.
    of course, it would help the gender balance if girls weren’t encouraged by the larger feminist culture at the expense of boys to pursue educational goals.

    No one has attacked me for being an American when I’ve traveled abroad.

    you’re black. they probably assumed you were something other than american. or, it didn’t matter, because euros have a love affair with black americans.

    CS,why do you think the rest of the world hate Americans?

    who gives a shit?
    the better question to ask: what can europe do to earn our love?
    remember: it’s beta to seek approval, alpha to qualify.
    it’s time to put a set of twin ones back in the american sack.

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  193. Interestingly, if you look at GDP per capita, the UK sits at $35,634 while France is much lower at $33,509. OTOH, evil socialist Sweden ranks at $36,578, flexcurity based Denmark at $37,265, and Canada at $38,614. For shits and giggles, the United States GDP per capita is $45,725.

    One thing a lot of folks may not understand is that, for the last 20 years, the rest of the world hasn’t been sitting still. There was once a time when stereotypes about “socialist Europe” vs. “capitalist America” were largely true. These stereotypes are not so clear-cut today.

    Supposedly socialist European countries have done such things as enact school vouchers; cut corporate income tax rates to well below American levels; privatize their postal systems; etc. And did you know that many countries don’t even *have* a capital gains tax or estate tax?

    Sweden just recently even abolished its “wealth tax.”

    In the meantime, in the US we now have Sarbanes-Oxley and a new Medicare entitlement. We’re falling behind. The rest of the world is moving towards capitalism, having learned their lesson that socialism was a bad idea… we, on the other hand, are ignoring the last century’s lessons and moving towards socialism.

    Left-leaning governments overseas often now go out of their way to make it clear how business-friendly they want to be: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122576045510195491.html

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  194. We have been waiting on round two of the radical terrorists for how many years now.

    So you think the reason its been years since the islamic terrorists last attacked is because they’ve stopped trying? Please don’t tell me you believe that currently we have more to fear from right-wing christians than islamic terrorists.

    also, isn’t it possible that the lack of attacks since 9/11 is proof that the war on terror is actually working?

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  195. Yeah, those horrible American Bible-thumpers. I tell you what. If Palin ever becomes prez, I’ll hide you in my attic. Just remember that there’s a state church, blasphemy is illegal (although jail sentences are now rare), the Christians often dictate when you can work or shop, abortion is nowhere near as easy as it is in the US, creationism is taught at public schools… I’m so happy to have European secularism instead of theocratic fascism like you have in America.

    chic: How does Nazi Germany fit in with your theory?

    The central hatred was German envy of Jewish brains.

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  196. zorgon, that’s the funny thing, as the US is moving to the left, Europe is moving to the right (at least on economics).

    The local far-lefties are getting eager about welfare reform; a negative income tax seems to be getting most of their discussion. When the socialists here are channeling Milton Friedman and the Americans are voting for socialism, the end times cannot be far.

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  197. T said If someone is showing me respect, then I’ll worry about respecting them too. If someone is disrespecting my country, then who cares if I get their respect? I repeat, fuck ‘em. Why are we so obsessed with whether they respect us or not? You can stand up for your country and still get foreign women if you truly have game. You can be conservative and still get liberal women if you have game.

    If WWIII comes into being we will need help. The last thing this country needs is to seen as a bully. People don’t help bullies when they are being beat down, they like to stand around and cheer, maybe throw a punch or two of their own for good measure.

    peter saidYou are correct, that would not happen in America.All racial and ethnic classification relies solely on self-identification. In other words, if you identify yourself as being of a particular racial or ethnic group, your word will be accepted without question and without any regard to what you actually look like.

    DA, did you read that? We can choose to be white 🙂 The police will no longer pull us over.

    Columbia
    Could you imagine this happening in any sport, at any level in America?

    Very true the “hate crimes” and racism in America are made up by blacks themselves. No monkey chants needed. See Professor Constantine, Duke fake rape case for more don’t forget Susan Smith and the McCain girl .

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  198. “OH REALLY???”

    You don’t really challenge the claim with anything concrete. Yes, slave mortality was much higher in Latin America than North America due to far more inhumane treatment. And more mixed race babies were produced because slave rape was more common.

    “How does Nazi Germany fit in with your theory?”

    Nazi Germany is another example of what happens when a high-performing ethnic minority lives among a low-performing ethnic majority: they are often ripe targets for populist violence and dispossession. It happens all over the world. See Amy Chua’s World On Fire.

    America, thankfully is mostly immune to this for a number of reasons. It has a middle class majority and so isn’t inflamed by successful ethnic minorities, which is why Asians and Jews are not victims of any real racism either.

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  199. access our massive shale and offshore resources in the name of the religion of environmentalism (Gaia worship)

    If you’re a New York City resident, I suggest one pay attention to issue of drilling for shale in Upstate New York as some of the proposed drilling sites are in areas that host reservoirs for New York City’s drinking water. In some cases, residual water from the drilling has been found to contain toxic chemicals that make water unsafe for drinking purposes.

    Personally, I’d rather keep the shale and offshore stuff as the ultimate last source for oil for military purposes, and instead focus on coal liquefaction. Shift electrical production to wind, solar, hydro, geothermal, and nuclear, and push coal towards liquefaction for conversion in to diesel fuel. At minimum, if we’re going to drill offshore, I would prefer to see a state owned company to engage in such drilling in order to provide the maximum return to the taxpayer with the profits going to specialized funds for infrastructure, a sovereign wealth fund, or debt serving with no ability for swaps with T-bills à la the Social Security Trust Fund.

    “Brazil is a poor underdeveloped country”

    Calling Brazil a poor underdeveloped country is an insult to Brazil. I’d argue that Brazil is a middle income nation that has some industrialization, decent life expectancy, and minimal public services. Compared to the United States or Western Europe, Brazil is poor, but when compared to Africa, it’s a paradise.

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  200. Damn, how old are you guys that you’re talking about 2100 vs. 1900. I’m 22 and our scores were capped at 1600.

    Chic, your stuff on AA doesn’t really make sense. AA is about increasing minority representation at schools at the expense of academic standards. Why would they turn away a minority who has better grades? I’m not making a statement about AA one way or another… just pointing out that your theory doesn’t make any sense.

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  201. If WWIII comes into being we will need help.

    Well Europe has been relying on us for their military protection for the last 60 years, so I don’t think the help we need will be coming from them.

    Who we ally with would depend on who the enemy is. If it were a war against China, we’d probably want to recruit the Japanese, the Indians and maybe the Australians. It damn sure wouldn’t be the Europeans.

    Like


  202. chic: How does Nazi Germany fit in with your theory?

    The central hatred was German envy of Jewish brains.

    Exactly so that proves Rain’s theory to be false. There is always some level of hate for the other. I hate^^^ this part of human nature the most.

    T saidSo you think the reason its been years since the islamic terrorists last attacked is because they’ve stopped trying?-NO Please don’t tell me you believe that currently we have more to fear from right-wing christians than islamic terrorists-HELL NO

    also, isn’t it possible that the lack of attacks since 9/11 is proof that the war on terror is actually working– Not really. The New Orleans levies could of very easily been blown apart by one of bin Laden’s boys.

    It only takes a couple of nuts to kill hundreds of people. Think about an individual who sides with bin laden but isn’t apart of a terrorist network. How hard would it be for him/her to pull a Chow at your local mall or college?

    Married But Cool
    I’m sorry, but I don’t buy this “End Days of America” bullshit. I personally do fear an Obama presidency, and as usual, Roissy is money on most of this post. But people, lets get real about predicting the end of this country. We simply will not let that happen.

    I agree I think we are down but not out. I get sick of hearing that shit too.

    Like


  203. seeking alpha saidIt damn sure wouldn’t be the Europeans

    Don’t be surprised if the Portuguese tried to help. The Portuguese are not happy with China.

    Seeking_Alpha- From my understanding AA wasn’t brought about to give preference underachieving blks over other groups but to insure that qualified blk were not passed over or shut out in favor of equally and less qualified whites

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  204. yet they still are more concerned with them over, say, radical Islamic terrorists that want to literally kill them

    Radical Islamists are sometimes seen in the prism of “minorities”, and in other cases, I would argue that the Islamists are seen as an abstract threat while the Christians are seen as the more important enemy due to their perceived size by the media. As a secularist, one should be aware of the activities and missions of both groups if one seeks to promote laicité in society.

    I’m not against immigration in general, I’m against illegal immigration in particular.

    While I sympathize with the Mexican labour who comes to the US, and I have no desire to treat them poorly due to basic human decency, I am against illegal immigration primarily because it’s an insult to legal immigrants who came to the United States and engaged in the process legally.

    Problem with lax border security though is that you end up letting in the bad with the good

    I’ve jokingly said that illegal immigrants who overstay their visa should be allowed to stay in the United States since they met the basic requirements of paying for airfare and passing the security clearances needed to get a visa in the first place. In contrast, there is no screening at all with those who “hop the fence” into the United States.

    Aren’t the people who RECEIVE affirmative action actually the ones who believe they are owed jobs just because of their skin color?

    Well, this is the interesting quirk with Affirmative Action. Is it more important to simply have the best students in our top elite institutions or is it more important to have a “diverse” student body that reflects the racial makeup of the nation to ensure equal access to these schools. In turn, should we prop up and create a black middle class via Affirmative Action or should we simply be content with a small black upper and middle class and a larger prole/high prole class black population? Some would argue that the first should be the goal, while others would say that the second is much fairer, but suffers from the “racism” problem which some people would argue is “wrong”.

    first we have less vacation time than europeans, so of course we travel much less. an average of two weeks a year is not much travel time at all.

    Add to list of reasons why David wants to work for government and not private sector.

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  205. @ Chic – The Portuguese wouldn’t be particularly helpful.

    From Wiki: “This is commonly achieved through targeted recruitment programs aimed at applicants from socio-politically disadvantaged groups. In some cases affirmative action involves giving preferential treatment to these underrepresented groups.”

    The problem wasn’t qualified blacks getting rejected. The problem was that if they did it purely on academic qualifications, there would be too few blacks.

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  206. And more mixed race babies were produced because slave rape was more common

    Who kept stats on slave rape? There was no DNA testing in those days. We know of slave rape from the mouths of slave women and their descendants. George Washington was known to sleep around with his female slaves but his family refuses to have his remains used for DNA testing to prove the link.

    “How does Nazi Germany fit in with your theory?”

    Nazi Germany is another example of what happens when a high-performing ethnic minority lives among a low-performing ethnic majority: they are often ripe targets for populist violence and dispossession. It happens all over the world. See Amy Chua’s World On Fire.

    America, thankfully is mostly immune to this for a number of reasons. It has a middle class majority and so isn’t inflamed by successful ethnic minorities, which is why Asians and Jews are not victims of any real racism either.

    Your two paragraphs cancel one another and render your theory void. We will have to agree to disagree.

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  207. Seeking_Alpha
    @ Chic – The Portuguese wouldn’t be particularly helpful
    That was a partial joke. Portugal is a very small country and I don’t know much about their military. I am aware that they are not fans of the Chinese who are living and working in their country

    Like


  208. I’d like to have a beer with Palin, then take her home and fuck her brains out.

    Like


  209. @ john 3:16

    the religious right took over the party and got them VOTES. thats the key. so it made elections that were really about larger issues (was iraq the best idea? is george W braindead?) into a referendum on things that weren’t important, like gay marriage, etc.

    @ roissy

    “it’s time to put a set of twin ones back in the american sack.”

    what exactly about george W’s foreign policy didnt embody this “macho” outlook on the world? doesnt really seem to have worked too well.

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  210. Roissy, I’m happy your not voting. You have a distorted view of the world. You take unpleasantness as evidence. The truth may be awful but awfulness is not evidence of veracity. A slight increase in the marginal tax rate is not something to get alarmed about. The financial crisis was not caused by deregulation or bad regulation. Your pretending that you understand it is childish. It’s 2008 which is probably past your bed time.

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  211. Yeah, it is the end of America, the end of the world, the end of the universe, the end of everything now that Obama is about to be elected. I suppose these are his messianic powers at work, only in reverse. We will never survive! Civil wars loom! Plagues and locusts and famines and wars and massive, uncontrolled farting will destroy all of us. I predict we are all going to suffocate in a massive brown, noxious cloud of flatulent gas. It will be slow, painful, and smelly death. And it is all because of Obama.

    Well before we all die I plan on hooking up with Palin and fucking her from behind. I bet she is a screamer too. I plan on finding out if she does anal too. Yum.

    Like


  212. The NOLA levees done by bin Laden? Where in the depths of your logic-free fantasy land did that one come from?

    Like


  213. DA:
    Is it more important to simply have the best students in our top elite institutions or is it more important to have a “diverse” student body that reflects the racial makeup of the nation to ensure equal access to these schools.

    there is no evidence that “diversity” has any bearing on educational attainment or, for that matter, the life well lived. it’s just an empty slogan ringing in the ears of the multicult koreshes.

    In turn, should we prop up and create a black middle class via Affirmative Action or should we simply be content with a small black upper and middle class and a larger prole/high prole class black population?

    if by “prop up”, you mean ensuring a society composed of underqualified professionals who might, for instance, be more likely to leave a medical intrument in a patient after heart surgery, then no, we should not prop up AA.
    if by “prop up”, you mean we should essentially placate with redistributive payoffs ethnic minorities who happen to not compete in a cognitively-based economy as well as the majority, then you are on more solid ground, though i’d still say the answer is “no”. law and order placates just as well without the downside of lowering standards or stealing money robin hood-style.

    of course, the cognitive stratification we are currently experiencing in overdrive wouldn’t be quite so bad if we weren’t busily importing an entire country’s worth of low skill labor to bust the wages of blue collar jobs that the left side of the american bell curve typically relies on for survival.

    Some would argue that the first should be the goal, while others would say that the second is much fairer, but suffers from the “racism” problem which some people would argue is “wrong”.

    AA and quotas have the seed of destruction embedded within them.

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  214. In turn, should we prop up and create a black middle class via Affirmative Action or should we simply be content with a small black upper and middle class and a larger prole/high prole class black population?

    Here’s a radical idea: why not hold blacks to the same standards as other races and have faith that they will eventually be able to make those accomplishments based on their own academic merits and hard work? By believing that our only options as blacks is either affirmative action or eternal prole existence, you are basically no different than a racist that claims that blacks are inherently inferior and can’t compete without help from whites.

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  215. Calling Brazil a poor underdeveloped country is an insult to Brazil. I’d argue that Brazil is a middle income nation that has some industrialization, decent life expectancy, and minimal public services. Compared to the United States or Western Europe, Brazil is poor, but when compared to Africa, it’s a paradise

    You’re entirely right. I was comparing Brazil to the United States.

    Like


  216. two steps forward one steps back.

    we have gone a few steps back away from europe, time to go one step forward.

    also the republican moderates are the ones losing seats. the republican party will become more extreme in their southern fried moralism. this is why they are going to continue to lose.

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  217. there is no evidence that “diversity” has any bearing on educational attainment or, for that matter, the life well lived.

    The issue isn’t about diversity making Harvard a better place. The issue is if it’s better to hand out some Harvard and other Ivy League degrees to non-Asian whites in order to buy their acceptance into our society.

    In other words, will black people be upset if the Ivy League has fewer black people in it? And does that anger lead to discontentment among the influential and intelligent sectors of the black community who may feel that they deserve to go to Harvard and be powerful and be middle class?

    if by “prop up”

    “Prop up” in general refers to the second case, but some would argue that the second case creates the first case.

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  218. we have gone a few steps back away from europe, time to go one step forward.

    You liberals and your Europe fetish. Instead of trying to turn America into Europe, why not just move to Europe. Enjoy it while you can though, because I predict a rightward shift there and soon.

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  219. why not hold blacks to the same standards as other races and have faith that they will eventually be able to make those accomplishments based on their own academic merits and hard work?

    Well, that’s the problem. If one follows the genetic IQ theory, black people will never be able to succeed as well as their white and Asian counterparts without massive state-led interventions. They’ll never be able to make those accomplishments.

    Like


  220. chiclet:
    “America, thankfully is mostly immune to this for a number of reasons. It has a middle class majority and so isn’t inflamed by successful ethnic minorities, which is why Asians and Jews are not victims of any real racism either.”

    Your two paragraphs cancel one another and render your theory void. We will have to agree to disagree.

    chiclet, you’ve misunderstood his point (surprise). leaving aside other historical factors that helped give rise to nazi germany, jews in germany were an *overperforming* ethnic minority within the german culture which chua has described in her book “world on fire” as one of the major factors contributing to ethnic tension and violence. she calls them a “market dominant minority”. in the US, there is no market dominant minority but there is (for now) a market dominant majority, which is why the ethnicities in america have lived for the most part in relative peace — the market dominant majority hasn’t felt the pain of paying off the underperforming market minorities with tax redistributive social engineering because they have retained a good standard of living. nor, for the same reason, have they felt that threatened by the overperforming ethnic minorities like jews and asians. iow, they could afford the loss of payoffs and of ethnic pride to keep the peace. this is all about to change, thanks to kennedy’s absurd 1965 immigration act and bush’s religiously fervent open borders ideology…
    (said ideology which wouldn’t be so bad if it were switzerland to our south instead of mexico. but them’s the breaks!)

    rick:
    what exactly about george W’s foreign policy didnt embody this “macho” outlook on the world?

    there’s a difference between strength and stupidity. bush was right to invade afghanistan but he fucked up choosing to go into iraq.
    but that’s irrelevant to my point anyhow. it is a sign of weakness, especially exhibited by lefties, to yearn deeply for the love and approval of other nations, particularly when this love is won by repudiating your very americaness, which in the case of europe it certainly is.
    this attitude is beta. what you should be asking instead is what europe can do to win america’s love. what has europe done for us lately? start from that premise, then work your way toward a balanced view that incorporates incremental levels of concern for other nations’ views. but be sure to judge these nations for worthiness of our concern before taking their considerations seriously.
    for instance, it would be the height of betatude to seek north korea’s approval. that’s like buying drinks for a fat chick hoping to get laid.

    Like


  221. Bunkered
    115 Above&Under
    I like Canada very much. It is really going to suck for you guys as you will be living next to a country that is on the way to massive civil disorder, economic dislocation, increasing and increasingly ineffective attempts at maintaining “order” and inevitable civil conflict involving combat. This will spill over into Canada (and much of the rest of the world) in an very unpleasant way. Think the former Yugoslavia, but bigger angrier and crazier. I spent some time over there during their troubles and was terrified most of the time, but also learned a thing or two.
    Roissy is correct in that we are living at the end of an era. It is going to be very unpleasant and some of us posting here won’t survive. I recommend that everybody start preparing for the inevitable insanity instead of just being at the mercy of events.
    Whiskey is that you?

    Roissy saidyou’re black. they probably assumed you were something other than american. or, it didn’t matter, because euros have a love affair with black americans
    No shit sherlock. j/k

    Actually some people thought I was AA or a blk Brit before I opened my mouth. Other people thought I was from Ethiopia, Haiti, Brazil, Jamaica etc… until they heard my accent. BTW, I had a few Euros direct questions to me about America in the same manner that they did any white Americans in the vicinity. It also became apparent to me that without a doubt, I am an American to the rest of the world.

    Sgt Joe Friday said I am just praying for one of Obama’s girls to blurt out “my mommy says that so-and-so is a cracker” or something like that.
    Projection much

    Married But Cool
    “I am voting for Obama because even on a sinking liferaft, I am for sharing the dwindling resources of that raft so that everyone, even the weak and the despised, have an equal share.”
    Get a damned job, and get your own fucking resources. Keep your paws off my shit

    I don’t mind sharing but you better have my back when I am down and out too.
    Lance said nobody is owed anything in this world just for being born and drawing breath. nobody is owed any special regard just because they happen to be born with a certain color skin or a certain organ between their legs. that goes both ways… as i’m sure my friend anonymous does.
    *bows to honor greatness*
    Epic comment. T, this is what I was trying to say to you the other day when you made the comment about the special rights of white men*.
    T said the idea that they can intellectually engineer societies perfectly (socialism and welfare states and hiring quotas and eugenics are examples of this mindset)
    the love of cheap labor. One can easily see in hindsight how importing another race en masse to be slaves, heavily populating your country with them, denying them education and indoctrinating them into a harsh structure that introduces a lot of social pathologies into the race was pretty shortsighted, then systematically oppress them once they were set free, then out of guilt create a welfare state that rewards them for underachieving in school and having single parent households, thereby creating even MORE social pathologies…all these problems stemmed from that love of cheap labor
    This was right on but to be fare only a small number of white men really have any say so when major decisions were/are being made to import cheap labor.
    T said Problem with lax border security though is that you end up letting in the bad with the good, hence the rampant amount of criminals and gangbangers that also cross with the good Mexicans who are just coming over to work
    T , the worst of all Latino gangbangers are M-13. M-13 members are mostly from El Salvador. M-13 are notorious in LA and other Latino gangs are very frightened of them. They are beyond ruthless and love to kill just because. El Salvador had a horrible particularly brutal civil war. Many of those gang bangers grew up seeing people “get got” on the streets 24/7. The worst of the hood has nothing on them.
    I read that Senator Jessie Helms(?) is largely responsible for importing them ^^^into this country*.

    Seeking alpha 162- good points

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  222. Joe T- Do you have any links to those new China labor laws. I would like to read about them.

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  223. Animus
    The NOLA levees done by bin Laden? Where in the depths of your logic-free fantasy land did that one come from?

    I don’t think bin Laden destroyed the NOLA levees. I think his follwers could of destroyed the NOLA levees for their act II in the same way that his follwers destroyed the twin towers.

    Like


  224. Roissy, in reference to comment 220, Rain seems to think that overachieving minorities will never have issues here because of their high IQs. I beg to differ, if things go bad, Asians and Jews will get hell in this country as any other group who are deemed the other.

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  225. jews in germany were an *overperforming* ethnic minority within the german culture

    Aren’t Jews in American an overperforming ethnic minority within American culture?

    thanks to kennedy’s absurd 1965 immigration act

    I owe my existence to Ted Kennedy. 🙂

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  226. DA saidthanks to kennedy’s absurd 1965 immigration act

    I owe my existence to Ted Kennedy

    A lot of people do:)

    Many wht people in this country forget that their great-grandparents made their way through Ellis Island. I bet my last dollar there were no happy Native Americans their to welcome them over either;)

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  227. — DA, did you read that? We can choose to be white The police will no longer pull us over.

    If you devote your life to crusading for a more low-abiding way of life among underclass black people, and succeed, then racial profiling will no longer be part of competent police work.

    You might succeed at this, Chic — you’re smart, charming, and a foxy young thing. Whatddaya say?

    — @161 T. AKA Ricky Raw

    Ricky, you seem to be casting a wide net here, and ascribing SWPL / elite white peoples’ behavior onto all white people, when you paint us all as responsible for intellectual vanity, empire building, or love of cheap labor.

    By your logic, all black people love selling themselves into bondage because lots of African chiefs once sold their fellow black people to transatlantic slave traders.

    [Joe T’s and others’ talk about anti-immigration party posters in Italy and Switzerland]

    Are those posters appropriate, tasteful, funny, or effective? Those are all things to consider when criticizing a political poster. One thing that bothers me, though, about the criticism of anti-immigration parties is the Agar Fallacy.

    Agar Fallacy is the premise, and unstated but implicit one in such arguments, that the value of a historic white nation (say, Finland or Switzerland, to keep aside colonial or slavery issues that complicate the picture) is measured by how hospitable they are to others.

    Like patri dish agar, which has no value of its own other than in how hospitable it is — how it provides food and habitat to foreign cultures.

    Judging white countries on how “racist” or accepting they are to alien peoples is a fallacy because it ignores the self-evident fact that white people are human beings, with human rights, who are also entitled to have societies composed of people like themselves, and which reflect their values, traditions, appearance, and temperaments.

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  228. chiclet:
    Roissy said: “you’re black. they probably assumed you were something other than american. or, it didn’t matter, because euros have a love affair with black americans”

    No shit sherlock. j/k

    well then, you just totally put the lie to your original claim.

    if you need reminding, here is what you wrote:

    “No one has attacked me for being an American when I’ve traveled abroad.”

    i then pointed out that the euros probably didn’t know you were american, or they were enthralled with your blackness. you then agreed — “no shit sherlock” — with me, so your original claim used in support of the implied contention that euros don’t attack americans for being american is not proven by your pointless anecdote.

    i ask myself why i bother with you. you’re clinically incapable of following a logical chain of thought and you hardly keep track of what you write two sentences previous.

    Epic comment.

    of course.
    anything written here that cheerleads your mistaken beliefs and makes you feel good is an epic comment.

    T, this is what I was trying to say to you the other day when you made the comment about the special rights of white men*.

    would you like to hazard a guess which groups in the US have “special rights” in the year 2008?

    Many of those gang bangers grew up seeing people “get got” on the streets 24/7. The worst of the hood has nothing on them.

    you evidence for this is…?
    cause as you well know, the hood is pretty fucking bad.

    I beg to differ, if things go bad, Asians and Jews will get hell in this country as any other group who are deemed the other.

    who is deeming whom the other?

    Like


  229. “I am voting for Obama because even on a sinking liferaft, I am for sharing the dwindling resources of that raft so that everyone, even the weak and the despised, have an equal share.”

    After a generation, some will have squandered their equal share, while others will have turned it into something more.

    Joe T, at that point, do you redistribute again?

    Like


  230. Ricky, you seem to be casting a wide net here, and ascribing SWPL / elite white peoples’ behavior onto all white people, when you paint us all as responsible for intellectual vanity, empire building, or love of cheap labor.

    By your logic, all black people love selling themselves into bondage because lots of African chiefs once sold their fellow black people to transatlantic slave traders.

    The cheap labor thing is a recurring problem among white Europeans. The black chieftains selling their war prisoners into slavery were a certain group of people in West Africa at a certain period of time. The white people of European descent constantly looking for cheap labor is a recurring theme throughout happens throughout history and across the world.

    Yes it was primarily the domain of elite whites rather than the vast majority of whites that were poor and oppressed, but if today’s race realists want to piggyback on the accomplishments of elite European and American nationbuilders and forefathers of the past when talking about the preservation of their culture from nonwhite invasion, then they can’t turn around and distance themselves and say “Oh no, those were the ELITE whites” when someone points out how those same forefathers created these problems for themselves.

    And the whites today looking for cheap labor are not just SWPL and elite whites. Conservative and liberal small business owners (Joe the Plumber types rather than elites), free market economists and middle class suburban families on both the right and the left are guilty of letting their concern for cheap labor trump the long term goals of preserving borders, language and culture. Unlike things like Affirmative Action, lax immigration policies are bigger than just the SWPL crowd.

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  231. @chicnoir
    I don’t think bin Laden destroyed the NOLA levees. I think his follwers could of destroyed the NOLA levees for their act II in the same way that his follwers destroyed the twin towers.

    Could have? Do you have ANY evidence, anything at all to back up such an idea? Because this sounds like something you just pulled out of your ass that has no basis in reality. Except this time I doubt you even have the anecdotal thing on your side. Maybe you didn’t hear about all of those Army Corp of Engineer reports that warned the levees wouldn’t survive a Category 4 hurricane. Simply google “army corps of engineers new orleans” for the plethora of reports.

    Like


  232. on November 5, 2008 at 12:28 am Comment_Class_Warfares_Cost

    *****
    At #143

    To whom is this rant directed? The only claim I’ve seen here is that Brazil is less racist than the U.S., not that it isn’t racist. And the only one saying Brazil is egalitarian is you…
    *****
    You are angry that I pointed out that the rich deliberately keep the population stupid in Brazil so they can control them. You then use your super-smart sneakiness to play pointless word-games about things you don’t even care about.

    Well, I’m ever so glad were are super-splitting the verbal hairs here.

    You admit that most blacks are treated and actively held down WORSE in Brazil than America, but make the bold point that they are held down and discriminated against because of their CLASS and not because of their RACE.

    Does discrimination of blacks because of their class, and not because of their race, somehow better? But I’ll say my sentence EXACTLY so you can be happy.

    “Brazil has more discrimination against almost all blacks, and it is of a more extreme and pervasive nature, than America. Because of that, the person claiming Brazil is “less racist” than America is either an idiot, or playing word games.””

    ******
    To others who might be interested: #143 gets the facts right but does not understand them correctly. It is true that “73 million of Brazil’s 127 million voters didn’t complete 4th grade”; this translates to “Brazil is a poor underdeveloped country”, which I’m sure will be no news to anyone here.
    ******
    I’m curious as to how “being poor” caused the 50% illiteracy you refer to later in your post? In the real world, basic education isn’t that expensive… and pays itself back really, really rapidly.

    Of course, if the rich are deliberately keeping the under-classes stupid so they are easier to control, then I guess that would explain it better than your use of the “qwardock” trick. Just say some broad, general term, and act like it explains everything. “Poor and undeveloped” as if somehow they didn’t have access to books and building in which to hold classes. Not that you need the buildings, actually. Show me the sky-high cost of fifth grade education, and then I’ll be convinced that Brazil “couldn’t afford it”.

    It’s great that the rich have finally realized mindlessly destructive selfishness doesn’t always work so they’ve begun to minimally educate their slaves. I really admire them for that.

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  233. My point was that those pathologies are solely a function of slavery and not cheap labor; a reasonable argument given the history of immigrants to this country who began as cheap labor and later became successfully integrated (Italians, Irish, Germans, Scots, and Chinese).

    Read the early immigrant tales of those groups, especially the Irish, Italians and Chinese. The slums of Five Points. The Italian tenements and ghettoes, the Chinese poor neighborhoods with their Triads and opium dens and prostitution rings. The gangs of NY, the crowded tenements built on landfills, the draft riots, it was by no means a smooth transition or easily assimilation. Tons of cheap labor was imported and it was by no means an easy assimilation. Workers were exploited, crime was rampant, conditions were filthy, and wars with nativists and each other ran rampant. More immigrants than job opportunities were the results of this unlimited immigration policy, , leading to many resorting to taking a part in crooked machine politics or organized crime. It’s no coincidence that three of these groups you mention, Irish, Italians and Chinese, have an entrenched organized crime culture in this country to this day. This unlimited immigration policy also led to many people who were criminals or undesirables in their home countries coming over to America and doing crime here, much like the lax Mexican immigration today leads to many undesirables and gangsters from Mexico entering with the good immigrants. i don’t want to get into too much detail because the comment will get too long, but the drive for cheap labor and lax immigration was much more problematic than you make it out to be with Chinese, Scots, irish and Italians. Two good books about this are Redneck Manifesto by Jim Goad and
    Working Toward Whiteness: How America’s Immigrants Became White: The Strange Journey from Ellis Island to the Suburbs by David Roediger.

    Like


  234. PA saidIf you devote your life to crusading for a more low-abiding way of life among underclass black people, and succeed, then racial profiling will no longer be part of competent police work
    I was joking with DA. BTW I don’t think it’s my job to police other blk people any more than it is your job to police the poor whites of this country.

    You might succeed at this, Chic — you’re smart, charming, and a foxy young thing. Whatddaya say?

    Aw, don’t make me blush. Black chics can blush too 🙂

    Roissy said:“well then, you just totally put the lie to your original claim.

    No, I’ve had disscusions with Europeans about America. I was not attacked for being an American or for American policies.
    “no shit sherlock” was my reply to you saying that I’m blk Roissy. Notice how I highlighted your comment about my being black.

    Roissy saidthere’s a difference between strength and stupidity. bush was right to invade afghanistan but he fucked up choosing to go into iraq

    We agree.
    Animus
    *sigh*
    I only mentioned Nola as an example. I did not linking him to the destruction of the NOLA levies. Bin laden’s target could of easily been Mount Rushmore, The San Francisco bridge or the Statue of Liberty.

    Like


  235. “Who kept stats on slave rape? There was no DNA testing in those days.”

    This is just something historians will agree with. The context of white freedom and black slavery didn’t leave too much room for “consensual” sex. If the mixed race population was expanding, it was because of “rape” as it is understood.

    “Your two paragraphs cancel one another and render your theory void. We will have to agree to disagree.”

    I don’t see how they “cancel eachother out”. Maybe you should read the book I recommended, which explains these issues in detail.

    “Roissy, in reference to comment 220, Rain seems to think that overachieving minorities will never have issues here because of their high IQs. I beg to differ, if things go bad, Asians and Jews will get hell in this country as any other group who are deemed the other.”

    No, what I said is that overachieving minorities are safe because Americans in general are overachieving. It’s harder to feel resentful of successful minorities when most people are able to live economically fulfilling lives.

    Could this change one day? Could Jews and Asians one day be the target of angry pogroms here in America? Perhaps after a massive collapse of the economy (such as was experienced by Germany in 1923, setting the stage for WWII).

    Maybe, but that’s a very good argument for nativism and ethnic homogeneity. Perhaps Jews and Asians should never have been permitted in a country where their lives hang in such a fragile state, if the majority white population really is so atavistically racist.

    Wouldn’t it be irresponsible for a “reformed” pedophile to allow young orphans to live in his house?

    If this is your viewpoint you should be in favor of ethnic separatism.

    Personally this is not my viewpoint and I don’t favor this, but I apparently have more faith in the economic, moral, and cultural strengths of American whites.

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  236. DA:
    Aren’t Jews in American an overperforming ethnic minority within American culture?

    yes, but they aren’t a market dominant overperforming ethnic minority.
    (in germany pre-ww2, the market majority of ethnic germans were still suffering the fallout of the post ww1 economic realignment. this contributed to the ethnic tension).

    I owe my existence to Ted Kennedy.

    count yourself lucky.
    of course, your stroke of luck has no bearing on the wisdom of the immigration policy change enacted by kennedy.
    nor does it have any bearing on my moral considerations.

    chiclet:
    Many wht people in this country forget that their great-grandparents made their way through Ellis Island.

    i was wondering how long it would take for ellis island to poke its fuzzy wuzzy widdle head up in this thread.
    ps: the word is “white”. if you’re gonna spell out every other word you may as well get that easy one right.
    pps: being thankful that your ancestors were able to immigrate here does not necessitate advocacy for further immigration.

    I bet my last dollar there were no happy Native Americans their to welcome them over either;)

    they were gone by then. and a good thing too, in hindsight. their culture wasn’t that great.
    or would you prefer to live in relative squalor?

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  237. Chic: Animus
    *sigh*
    I only mentioned Nola as an example. I did not linking him to the destruction of the NOLA levies. Bin laden’s target could of easily been Mount Rushmore, The San Francisco bridge or the Statue of Liberty.

    You really are incoherent, aren’t you? Nothing has happened to ANY of those things! You were responding to someone talking about the “lack of attacks” in post 202. None of those are attacks, so how the HELL are they examples of how there have been attacks? How could non-events be acceptable examples?

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  238. roissy,
    I’m white, but no one gave me any attitude in Europe. I said please, thank you, sir and ma’am and everyone was polite to me. Americans are less formal in their manners than Europeans which strikes them as rudeness.

    Re slavery rape: Light complected slave women were, in general, most sought after as concubines and over time this produced a slave subpopulation that was legally “black” but looked entirely white. Some slaveholders were reluctant to buy white slaves for fear that they’d be harder to catch if they ran away, but they were favored as house servants and white slave women were very expensive and bought exclusively for sex.

    Most of Thomas Jefferson’s children with Sally Hemmings left Monticello and lived as white people. After the civil war it would have been very easy for such freed slaves to leave the South and “pass” as white, so you can’t tell the level of slave rape by the admixture percentages of people who currently phenotypically black.

    http://multiracial.com/site/content/view/460/27/

    Here’s a photo of half-white Victoria Rowell and her 3/4 white daughter

    http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.hollywoodnewswire.net/photos/events/2005ChildrenUnitingNationsAwards/sml/022705_25Childr0237.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.hollywoodnewswire.net/pubPages/events/specific.php%3Fid%3D677&h=120&w=80&sz=20&hl=en&start=10&um=1&usg=__AE3MGs9fm1yJzw66i9RpQsFbQEU=&tbnid=KQVR8MyTfCHJRM:&tbnh=88&tbnw=59&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dvictoria%2Browell%2Bdaughter%2Bmaya%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1C1GGLS_en-USUS291%26sa%3DN

    On that note I want to add that not all white male/black female relations were rape even among masters and slaves. Even if a slave couldn’t legally refuse her master she might well have been attracted to him since he was the literal alpha male. Even if she weren’t attracted to him personally she might want protections and comforts he could provide and believe that he might set her free. Overseers could provide a similar dynamic, and for free black women a common law marriage with a white man, however poor, meant a husband that was more employable in the racist south than an economically comparable black one. Openly living with a black woman may have been considered extremely base, but poor whites have interacted more freely with blacks, depending on the county and town. The Lovings of Loving vs. Virginia had no family opposition to their match, for example.

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  239. — I owe my existence to Ted Kennedy.

    And I owe my existance to Adolph Hitler.

    Because my one set of grandparents met while in anti-Nazi resistance. And my other grandfather was in a German POW camp after the 1939 campaign and was then resettled to where he met my grandmother.

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  240. Animus, after the attack on the world trade center, there were a number of analysts who made predictions about the terrorists next possible target(s). I mentioned Nola because it was mentioned as a possible target. BTW I get that you’re pulling my string.

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  241. being thankful that your ancestors were able to immigrate here does not necessitate advocacy for further immigration.

    IMHO, it’s hypocritical for me to demand that the door be closed to legal immigration by non-whites of questionable IQ when my parents were in that group as immigrants.

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  242. The opposing argument is that immigrants owe their loyalty to the society that took them in and not to foreigners who want to come in.

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  243. The opposing argument is that immigrants owe their loyalty to the society that took them in and not to foreigners who want to come in.

    The problem is that if the society is no longer accepting of new immigrants, then one must raise the possibility that the society is may be no longer accepting of its current immigrants and their native born-descendants.

    Regardless, it’s still hard for me to say “fuck you” to potential immigrants who remind me of my friends and family.

    Fun Question: I have two college educated cousins in Haiti. One is a civil engineer, another is a teacher. Should they stay in Haiti or should they immigrate.

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  244. @199 DA “I suggest one pay attention to issue of drilling for shale in Upstate New York as some of the proposed drilling sites are in areas that host reservoirs for New York City’s drinking water.”

    I agree, but New Yorkers deciding not to drill for natural gas (these shale plays are for gas, not oil btw) in their own backyard should come with the caveat that they not use nat. gas from the parts of the country that have decided to utilize their natural resources. Then maybe when Manhattanites freeze their asses off this winter they will rediscover the joys of gas and coal.

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  245. roissy,
    why is my comment still awaiting moderation? and what does roissy mean?

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  246. should come with the caveat that they not use nat. gas from the parts of the country that have decided to utilize their natural resources.

    The problem is that the drilling for gas releases toxins that can leak into the local watershed. Unless one can come up with an alternative to drilling in which the toxins aren’t released, it makes no sense to drill when the water supply for 8 million residents is at risk unless you plan on paying trillions of dollars on finding a new water source with appropriate infrastructure for the city.

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  247. You are angry that I pointed out that the rich deliberately keep the population stupid in Brazil so they can control them.

    You POINTED OUT??? To speak like this makes it seem this opinion of yours is a founded historical thesis. Sorry, man, but I don’t take for conspiracy theories involving millions of people over centuries seriously.

    You admit that most blacks are treated and actively held down WORSE in Brazil than America, but make the bold point that they are held down and discriminated against because of their CLASS and not because of their RACE.

    No, I didn’t admit anything. If you reread my posts, you’ll see I said nothing about whether blacks had it worse in the U.S. or Brazil, simply because I’m not qualified to judge: I’m not black in Brazil, and I’ve never been to the States. How will I know?

    If you do want my prejudice – for it isn’t really an established opinion – I think they had it worse in the U.S., since there were racist laws which Brazil never had. While getting rich was and is much more difficult in Brazil, rich “blacks” (i.e., including dark biracials) would have been accepted into the ruling elite even in the benighted past, while this is not true of the U.S. Some were noblemen of the Brazilian Empire (1822-1889), including, in a neat historical irony, the last diehard defender of slavery, the Baron of Cotegipe, who was the son of a freedwoman (if I remember correctly), and occupied several posts in the administration, including that of Prime Minister.***

    Does discrimination of blacks because of their class, and not because of their race, somehow better?

    Certainly not, nor have I claimed otherwise. What I did say is that a huge disability is imposed on all poor Brazilians, making it hard to disentagle the effects of race and class. I’ll readily grant that poor blacks have it worse than poor whites, for even if one were to suppose the effects of discrimination to be small, they certainly aren’t zero. The question is, how great is this effect? NO ONE REALLY KNOWS. And poor whites certainly don’t have it easy either.

    “Brazil has more discrimination against almost all blacks, and it is of a more extreme and pervasive nature, than America”

    That’s your opinion. As I said, I find it unlikely, but I can’t prove you wrong in what is a matter of judgment.

    I’m curious as to how “being poor” caused the 50% illiteracy you refer to later in your post?

    I didn’t say one thing caused the other. I said they are equivalent expressions. Poor countries have high illiteracy, and illiterate countries are poor. And I mentioned the 50% illiteracy as a major achievement (it was): go further back in the past and the literate part of the population shrinks rapidly.

    In the real world, basic education isn’t that expensive… and pays itself back really, really rapidly.

    No shit! No need telling me; those who needed hearing this are those who set policies 150-100 years ago, when this idea wasn’t really fashionable.

    Of course, if the rich are deliberately keeping the under-classes stupid so they are easier to control

    Sure, that must explain why Brazilian and Latin American politics have been defined since the 1930s by a phenomenon called “populism”, and why Brazil has a former manual laborer of dirt-poor origins as President. Oh, all the populists and President Lula must have been coopted by the evil ruling elite! The bastards!

    Show me the sky-high cost of fifth grade education, and then I’ll be convinced that Brazil “couldn’t afford it”

    As I mentioned in one of my postings, Brazil has universal schooling today. It didn’t have it in the past. Most about everyone born more than 30 years ago (or even more recently depending on the region of the country) got shortchanged on education. (To add one more data point, the first **universities** in Brazil date from the venerable age of the late 1930s).

    The reason was not a conspiracy of the elites, but the fact that education was not considered one of the government’s prerogatives before the Great Depression. (And I bet many of those who post here are against all government education tout court). When classical liberal positions went to the defensive in that decade, Brazil began (slowly) to change. Today all children are at school. But that doesn’t help those who were children decades ago, of whatever race.

    BTW, I do think that the single most important failure of Brazilian developmentalist thought and programme – which did deliver much, Brazil loses only to Japan in GDP growth per capita from c. 1880 to 1980 in the world – is that it did not emphasize educating the masses (and only belatedly noticed that technical and scientific education had to be available even if for the elites only!). This has been redressed too late, but better late than never.

    Finally, a comment on RainAnd’s argument that slave rape was more prevalent in Latin America. I’m not saying it is impossible – although I’d be surprised if there is any data which would enable us to form an informed opinion – but the simple existence of huge biracial populations is no proof of it. In Brazil (again), there were more free blacks than slaves since the late eighteenth century. At independence (1822), there were roughly one million “whites”, one million free “blacks”, and one million slaves. Though obviously rape had much to do with it, consensual relations must have had a major share of influence in the formation of the current population.

    *** I can’t resist telling an anecdote. Shortly after signing the Law Abolishing Slavery amid enormous popular rejoincing, the Princess Imperial Isabel, then regent of the Empire because the Emperor was abroad, found Cotegipe in the corridors of the palace, and taunted him: “Baron, didn’t I tell you abolition would be accomplished with feasts and flowers? Did I win or didn’t I?”. Cotegipe answered: “Your Highness won, but you’ve lost your throne”. The monarchy would be toppled one year and a half later.

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  248. Bush is the very face of beta. He’s been his VPs bitch. Time to get an alpha in office.

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  249. Also, McCain is very beta too. He depends on his female VP to take potshots at his opponent ( with the Ayers charge), while he himself shrinks away like a frightened kitten when given the chance to level the charges himself on public television in the debates.

    Obama, on the otherhand, repeatedly said *when* I’m President. Extremely alpha move.

    Is the real problem that the Republican leadership is too beta?

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  250. Bush is the very face of beta. He’s been his VPs bitch. Time to get an alpha in office.

    Who? OBAMA? The man who’s his wife’s bitch? He’s the biggest beta of all!

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  251. @245 DA “The problem is that the drilling for gas releases toxins that can leak into the local watershed.”

    That’s simply untrue. Drilling mud can be made to be non-toxic. I’m unfamiliar with drilling in upstate NY , but in the Marcellus Shale in WV (the same formation as in NY) uses nitrogen gas as a drilling “mud” – emphatically non-toxic. Once the well is drilled to below the lowest fresh water-bearing formation surface casing is cemented in the well, preventing drilling fluids from contaminating drinking water. This is a universal practice and relatively simple process and protects countless freshwater aquifers across the world.

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  252. Skeptic
    Also, McCain is very beta too
    I didn’t vote for the man but McCain is an alpha if his life story is true. He got himself a sugar moma.

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  253. I could disagree with t.u.c on some matters, instead I’ll just say I appreciate his invaluable insider perspective and thank him for his polite tone. (same for jaakkeli.. fuck yeah for people who can communicate perfectly across two different cultures)

    And eventually, when I make my way down to Brazil, maybe.. just maybe.. he’ll show me around the local scene! 🙂

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  254. I forgot this part:

    . . . things you don’t even care about.

    Sure, why would I care about problems which will define the country I will live my old age in, and the country my children will inherit?

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  255. chicnoir –

    He used to be alpha, but he’s very beta now. Sending out women to challenge his opponents, rather than challenging them himself. Changing his fundamental beliefs to make others happy. The guy reeks beta these days.

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  256. Thanks, Rain And. You’ll be welcome down here! (:

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  257. Rain And: (same for jaakkeli.. fuck yeah for people who can communicate perfectly across two different cultures)

    Two? You haven’t seen anything yet!

    David: I have two college educated cousins in Haiti. One is a civil engineer, another is a teacher. Should they stay in Haiti or should they immigrate.

    Well, you could tell them to move to Europe. There’ll be some nice social services lady to welcome them and explain how much we all love diversity and how their skills are appreciated. Then they’ll meet the frustrated natives whose opinion on immigration has never actually been asked – uh. Then they’ll meet the employers who are not impressed at all by foreign degrees. Once they manage to make it janitor they’ll get to serve the happily unemployed refugees who are given everything for free…

    I got to stop thinking about immigration politics. It’s too depressing.

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  258. on November 5, 2008 at 4:55 am Levi Johnston

    The most powerful white man in the world is Putin. That’s some depressing shit.

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  259. The most powerful white man in the world is Putin. That’s some depressing shit.

    Putin will fucking eat Obama’s beta ass for breakfast. He has a better chance sending in his high-T Patrick Ewing wife in against Putin.

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  260. Yeah. Now the most powerful man in the world is a black woman.

    A small step for women, a giant leap for African-Americans… and a huge fucking embarrassment for mankind.

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  261. 113 Joe T.
    And China’s growth – definitely NOT an example of Anglo-Saxon capitalism. State-owned or state-guided industries, strong national industrial policy, etc. Very dirigiste. Also the stated policy is to improve worker rights and benefits and improve the overall standard of living of the people. China passed a sweeping new labor law this year which dramatically increased labor rights in real ways, which have actually hurt foreign (ie, US) companies doing business there to the point where many American companies have pulled out, or are planning to.

    China knows they can do this, because their economy is now about 60-70% decoupled from the US. The current financial crisis and recession/depression will be hard on China, but as whatever doesn’t kill them will make them stronger, and this will definitely not kill them. They’ll emerge from this effectively 80-90% decoupled from the US. Even with the global downturn/collapse, their annual growth rates have slowed from what? 10 percent down to 5 percent?

    Hehe.

    You know, Walmart accounts for over 1% of China’s economy last I checked. Doesn’t sound like a lot, but China has 1.3 billion people. Think about it: 100X Walmart=China. The Walmart Co. is worth 13 million Chinese. Ouch.

    China’s bought into the US economic plan hook line and sinker. I don’t know why people think China’s going to come out of this as some giant astride the world. Does Joe T have a clue as to how effective labor laws are in China? I do.

    Let me tell you guys about China: it’s screwed. Always has been. You think we have it bad here? You don’t even know… When 2-300 million migrant laborers are out of work we’ll see what good China’s “sweeping new labor law” does.

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  262. [i]260 jaakeli[/i]

    comment of the year

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  263. I’m curious, Joe T. All my adult life. and liberty has been my primary political value. Obviously not the case with you. I had my road-to-Damascus moment when, at the 1964 GOP convention, in his famous speech, Ronald Reagan posed the question, “What is it that we will tell our grandchildren we valued more than freedom?” Apparently you had some road-to-Damascus moment where you looked at liberty and thought, “Eh, not so much.” I’m curious: at what point did you decide there were higher political values than liberty? Also, at what point did you decide that you, and people like you, had the right to use the power of the State to compel other people into submission to your vision of the just society?

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  264. “Yeah. Now the most powerful man in the world is a black woman.

    A small step for women, a giant leap for African-Americans… and a huge fucking embarrassment for mankind.”

    Whatever. I don’t see it as much of a leap for AA; they will undoubtedly get some deserved pride from it, but the AA race is on the decline as we speak because the lower half of the race in this country is full of criminal and anti-social behavior, which will not change overnight because of a black man been given power – criminals do not think in that fashion. In fact, criminals tend to think the opposite.

    The key here is demographics – AAs are at replacement level, shockingly close to Whites, and I expect a further decline. The only way blacks remain at replacement levels will be if there is enough African immigration.

    The *hispanics* will take over. When they get their own candidates, even nationally, within the next two decades, the upcoming black politicians will find the going tough. The democratic primaries should provide the example.

    But it still is a well-earned victory for Obama and the AA community.

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  265. Problem is, Obama is not African-American. African-American means that you are culturally of black American slave descent. For example I am black and a native-born American, but I am not African-American because my parents are Haitian. I have no roots to the south or to american slavery. Obama piggybacked onto African-American culture to generate a win, but African-American culture is not really his culture, even though he is black. He is only half black, and that black half originates from Ghana. I think that’s a big reason why Michelle Obama was so important for him to get black voters.

    First she was angry and sassy, which appeals to a lot of black women who can identify. (Sorry but it’s true, even if its not PC. How often have you seen black women equate being angry and bitchy with being “a strong black woman”) Second, she is African-American, so it strengthens his weak ties to the African-American culture. Third, she’s dark skinned. Many black women take it as a blow to their self-esteem when successful black men date outside their race or even when they choose light-skinned black women. The fact that Obama chose a dark-skinned black woman gives them validation (of course he could have gotten a dark-skinned woman who was also a 9 like Kenya Moore rather than a clean-shaven high-T Chris Rock/Pat Ewing hybrid, but I digress). This article and the comments following show the black female mindset I’m talking about:
    http://www.theroot.com/id/44409

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  266. Let me tell you guys about China: it’s screwed. Always has been. You think we have it bad here? You don’t even know… When 2-300 million migrant laborers are out of work we’ll see what good China’s “sweeping new labor law” does

    They’ll have a “revolution” on their hands if things get bad and the authorities can’t keep a lid on things. The elites that run China know this better than anyone. That is why dissent in the PRC is ruthlessly and quickly crushed. Those guys don’t play around. Look what they did to the Tibetans(and their own in Tianamen). I remember reading in some PRC press release that all those arrested by PRC authorities in Tibet confessed. I fucking bet they did. If things start looking bad for the PRC, expect them to have a war.

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  267. on November 5, 2008 at 4:55 am258 Levi Johnston

    “The most powerful white man in the world is Putin. That’s some depressing shit.”

    Why, because he is mean and doesn’t mind getting his hands dirty? That guy is a hardened individual who takes no shit from anybody. He doesn’t fuck around or mince words and certainly is no whining pussy crying about how depressing some shit is. Pull yourself together for fuck’s sake!

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  268. T puts up some sensational posts, like 233 and 265 (actually a reasoned, correct analysis of Michelle Obama). But Michelle drives him so insane that he can’t judge Obama clearly — this “Obama is beta” stuff is nonsense. If Obama is beta then the word has no meaning. Hell, same thing for McCain, who got his entire political career due to his skill in seducing wealthy, beautiful women. You may as well say that all politicians are beta because the job involves compromise and pleasing others.

    I also feel visceral repulsion at the thought of being married to Michelle Obama, but I can see the sources of their attraction. Not just that Barack had always idealized community-rooted black Americans from afar, but also because I think one of his greatest fears was becoming a self-destructive, promiscuous, undisciplined tomcatter like his father. Just because that is the version of “alpha” promoted around here doesn’t mean that it’s actually a good thing to do. He wanted to channel his energies and be a good family man, and marrying someone like Michelle is a way of, ummm, committing to that.

    Speaking of the election, last night was the GREATEST PICKUP NIGHT IN DC HISTORY. Somehow I don’t think Roissy took advantage, though.

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  269. T @ 214-

    Where is the evidence that the Negroid race is capable of the same level of civilizational achievement as the Caucasoid race? All scientific and historical evidence suggests otherwise. Not a value judgement, just a fact. Hasn’t anyone here read Carleton Putnam’s Race and Reason or it’s sequel, Race and Reality: A Search for Solutions ?

    We will never be able to close the IQ gap, the education gap, the wealth gap nor any other gap between the races. The races are different and only liberalism says otherwise. I thought this site was where pretty lies perished. Blacks need not be afraid of this since both races are made in God’s image and share the same human dignity.

    Black America–not to mention white America–was much better off (illegitimacy rates, crime, etc.) when the standards were the same for both whites and blacks, notwithstanding the vastly different levels of material and intellectual achievement that maintained.

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  270. 269 ae

    We will never be able to close the IQ gap, the education gap, the wealth gap nor any other gap between the races.

    Er. This assumes genetic engineering, among other things, will never be possible. Which is rather presumptuous given that we already genetically engineer some of our food, and there’s now a lot of effort going into decoding the human genome.

    Maybe you don’t think we should let that technology close the IQ gap, but not everyone will agree with you there.

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  271. MQ:
    Just because that is the version of “alpha” promoted around here

    you haven’t been reading closely enough.

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  272. 270 Chris

    While what you say may be true in the limited sense of identifying the genes responsible for g, the genetic component of intelligence, IQ does have smaller secondary influences that are not genetically determined and so absolute parity would still be difficult. Further, the attainment of education and wealth are dependent upon other biological factors not having to do with IQ, such as emotional temperaments and a host of other things. For example, it may prove impossible to determine exactly the genetic components of “character”.

    Besides all this, your larger point is correct. You’re painting a radical picture of a society in which we are able to engineer humans any which way we want. I’m doubtful we’ll someday have command over all human attributes since I am not a genetic reductionist, but there are ethical questions to be discussed.

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  273. As a follow up to my post 272:

    Even if you are a genetic reductionist, the left is not pinning its hopes for racial equality on some not-too-distant future where we’re able to engineer blacks and whites to be equal. The left says they are equal now, and any inequalities are the result of overt or latent or the history of–or whatever–white racism.

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  274. T: can you imagine the fury if Obama were caught with a light-skinned mistress? Forget Kenneth Starr, he’d have to survive Oprah!

    MQ: Speaking of the election, last night was the GREATEST PICKUP NIGHT IN DC HISTORY.

    Judging from this blog, I’d assume that means it was almost as good as 7 am on a monday morning in Estonia. Hung over. After having woken up in the gutter.

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  275. jaakkeli,
    I have to say I agree. No matter what your political stripes, it was good to see people in DC happy for a change. I just wonder how long it will last. Was this a singular event of euphoria? Or will an amiable government lighten spirits on a more permanent basis? If the Obama presidency means Bush-haters put out more, then it’ll be hard to dissuade me come 2012.

    And chic, I ain’t pulling your strings. It’s about your complete inability to hold a coherent thread of discussion, at least online. I hope that you merely have a difficult time with the format rather than possessed of such disjointed faculties.

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  276. T @ 214-

    Where is the evidence that the Negroid race is capable of the same level of civilizational achievement as the Caucasoid race? All scientific and historical evidence suggests otherwise. Not a value judgement, just a fact. Hasn’t anyone here read Carleton Putnam’s Race and Reason or it’s sequel, Race and Reality: A Search for Solutions ?

    We will never be able to close the IQ gap, the education gap, the wealth gap nor any other gap between the races.

    Studies show that blacks have evolved to have lower IQs on average than blacks. Plenty of scientific reasons to explain this. None of that is evidence that the IQ gap can’t be closed in the future. I’ve discussed this in detail over at my blog, won’t hijack this comments section with it.

    Second, even if the IQ gap won’t be closed, who the fuck cares? Like I always say, high IQ is overrated anyway, usually by middle class and lower class people with high IQ. It is very important for them to believe that high IQ is the ultimate factor in success, because it feeds into their belief that they deserve power and the right to rule. They fetishize IQ as the ultimate judge of a person’s ability to lead or a person’s worth, and then point to inherent failure in the system or infrastructure to explain why they are not as powerful as they should be. The upper class is to blame for the lack of existence of an IQ aristocracy. The lower class is to blame. Affirmative action is to blame. Blah blah blah. It’s right out of Trotsky’s playbook, or any intellectual that proposed an oligarchy based on rule by high-IQ people.

    And you know what? Oligarchies run by high IQ people and think tanks SUCK. Look at every centrally-planned socialist and communist country for proof. Because high IQ people overestimate their ability to socially engineer society whether it’s through nanny states, eugenics programs, etcetera, and always end up with fucked up long-term ramifications from it, because high-IQ people tend to live in a world of grand theories, stats, ivory towers and utopian fantasies, all of which tend to be divorced from human nature.

    And our country is becoming a statist oligarchy run by high-IQ people rather than through the free-market and competition, and how is that turning out? How many of our current disasters have been engineered by high IQ people getting together, from the Supreme Court ruling fiascos, the current subprime mess, the complex financial instruments like derivatives and credit derivative swaps that will be the next financial crisis, the left-leaning academic think tanks that keep following up bad policy with more policy suggestions.

    The best leaders of the 21st century were not high IQ people, they were just charismatic and clever people who hired some high IQ lackeys to work for them and only listened to them whenever they felt like it. Stop fetishizing IQ as the be-all and end-all of people’s worth.

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  277. 276: excellent post. One can add to this that the so-called “scientific” case that for a mostly genetic IQ is riddled with flaws and pretty doubtful. So I wouldn’t even give too much ground on the evolution stuff. Although no doubt, like everything else in human personality, one’s propensity toward abstract thinking and doing well on tests is in some way tangled up with genetics — but it’s very hard to separate human genetic expression from environment and culture.

    I imagine Greeks and Romans in 300 AD talking about how the barbarian northern Germans and Britons were genetically inferior, hadn’t even invented indoor plumbing, and were fit only to be slaves.

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  278. T. AKA Ricky Raw
    Problem is, Obama is not African-American. African-American means that you are culturally of black American slave descent
    Neither are you but so what*.

    First she was angry and sassy, which appeals to a lot of black women who can identify
    WOW T just Wow
    When have you seen Michelle angry and sassy. Don’t compare her to your female relatives or past girlfriends.

    Plenty of light-skinned blk men date & marry medium and dark complected blk women. Obama’s marriage to Michelle is not a weird occurrence.

    MQ saidYou may as well say that all politicians are beta because the job involves compromise and pleasing others
    Exactly

    Like


  279. T – 276

    Your post is impressive and it’s clear to anyone that you have a strong grasp on this subject. I agree that IQ does not determine a person’s worth, I never said it did. I said that each human being possesses equal human dignity regardless of IQ, height, weight, skin color, facial structure, etc. Contra MQ in 277, the science is pretty much settled on the question of IQ and the consensus is that there is a significant (two-thirds to three-quarters) genetic component that can’t be altered by any known means.

    But my post wasn’t primarily about IQ so I’m not going to address the rest of what you wrote. I was responding to your earlier post-214-where you argued for society to hold blacks and whites to the same standards and that there could then be reasonable expectations that over time blacks and whites would perform at the same level in society. I then asked what evidence existed that the Negroid and Caucasoid races had the same civilizational capabilities. This question extends far beyond the discussion of IQ. For example, has there ever been a black African city the equal of Rome or Paris or London? Has there ever been a black African university the equal of Oxford or MIT?

    If the expectation is equality of outcome, how long do think that single set of standards–which both you and I want–will last when that equality never arrives?

    Like


  280. on November 5, 2008 at 11:21 pm Comment_Yes_Quite

    ******
    You POINTED OUT??? To speak like this makes it seem this opinion of yours is a founded historical thesis. Sorry, man, but I don’t take for conspiracy theories involving millions of people over centuries seriously.
    ******
    Yes, because everyone in the entire country of a Brazil has a say in how education was set up. You guys do love pumping that blame out and then pointing to the ‘ridiciliousness’ of it.

    I deny that the slaves(literally) of 19th century Brazil had a say in how their education was set up. I also reject the absurd proposition that even a majority of the population had a say.

    Did you know that in one country a small cabal decided to steal all of a large, mighty countries gold and give it to thier friends? I know, I know, Conspiracy. Impossible.

    FDR outlawed gold ownership in 1933. This is a historical fact.

    Ah, but he was sneaky about it! Yes, quite. I’m sure the cabal of rich people that kept the darkies dumb in Brazil were also sneaky. Does it matter? Both happened. We can see the results of both. The fact that ‘sneakiness’ was involved hardly change the fact of the occurence. I see the results and don’t particularly care about the little dance they did to fool the simple-minded.

    Conspiracy! Bugga Bugga! Whatever.

    I wrote:
    *****
    You admit that most blacks are treated and actively held down WORSE in Brazil than America, but make the bold point that they are held down and discriminated against because of their CLASS and not because of their RACE.
    ******

    You responded:
    *****
    No, I didn’t admit anything. If you reread my posts, you’ll see I said nothing about whether blacks had it worse in the U.S. or Brazil, simply because I’m not qualified to judge: I’m not black in Brazil, and I’ve never been to the States. How will I know?
    *****

    In Post 102 you wrote:
    ****
    The point is, in Brazil social mobility FOR ANYONE has been all but nonexistent with just a few regional and chronological exceptions. Few people born in a poor family, of whatever race, will get rich, no matter their talents. (Of course it can happen over generations, as it did in my family, but most of Brazil hasn’t ever been a “land of opportunity” as America has).
    ****

    And no, you don’t care about your word games where you claimed that I was wrong that Brazil is more racist because Brazil’s discrimination against blacks is CLASS discrimation not RACE.

    You are mad about two things.
    1.My correct statement that massive deliberate mis-education won’t be easily fixed.
    2.My correct statement that the power-elite of Brazil did it intentionaly.

    I’m sure your concerned about the first point most of all. Too bad. I’ve lost sympathy for people who are ‘sad’ at the consequences of letting evil-stupid-crazy(the dread triad of absolute destruction) people run around at full speed wrecking things. You wanna be their friend?

    HOW FUN IS IT NOW MR. SMARTY SMARTY?

    Like


  281. Rain and said could disagree with t.u.c on some matters, instead I’ll just say I appreciate his invaluable insider perspective and thank him for his polite tone. (same for jaakkeli.. fuck yeah for people who can communicate perfectly across two different cultures)

    Rain if I was an ass yesterday, I apologize. I take rape and child molesting very seriously. Of all the topics covered here, rape is the one which makes me a bit emotional.

    Rosh wrote a post about a mermaid where he or a commenter mentioned raping the mermaid( jokingly)*. I was very disturbed that he( or a commenter) would treat rape as something so trivial esp when he has both a sister and mother whom he professes to love dearly.

    BTW, I am equally disturbed by false rape charges because they destroy lives and reputations, sometimes forever.

    Like


  282. […] Exclusive Roissy Election Eve Post Undecided voters are stupid. These “deliberative” voters will choose our next President. Sweet. Voting is […] […]

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  283. You guys do love pumping that blame out and then pointing to the ‘ridiciliousness’ of it.

    I blamed no one for our woes but ourselves. I’m still a true believer in that the old quip about Brazil being “the country of the future” forever will be proved wrong. We did much shit but we also did many things right, and Brazil is getting better.

    I deny that the slaves(literally) of 19th century Brazil had a say in how their education was set up.

    Good grief, now I said slaves had a say in their education??? And how much better was their situation in the U.S.? (Tip: read any biography of Frederick Douglass).

    I also reject the absurd proposition that even a majority of the population had a say

    Brazil has been a democracy for most of its history (our dictatorships were in the years 1889-1891, 1930-1934, 1937-1945, and 1964-1985 – and this last one qualifies only partly as Congress, local and state governments were still chosen in free elections). So yes, the population at large usually had a say, stronger or weaker depending on the period.

    An uneducated population will not demand to be educated (it seems this is your blind spot). It will return politicians who promise bread-and-circuses, not gradual advancement. [This is largely true even in advanced nations…]. Brazilian electors have repeatedly elected politicians who ran under the slogan – I swear I’m not making this up – “I’ll steal, but I’ll help you” (“Rouba mas faz” in Portuguese).

    An uneducated population will need to have education forced down its throat by an enlightened elite not answerable to the people. Such enlightened elites are a rare find anywhere and at all times. It’s sad to recognize that the most rapid advancement of Brazilian education happened under the last two dictatorships, precisely because the national government could do pretty much as it pleased. Before recent times (post-1985), once Brazil was a democracy, stalemate at the national level and the lack of reward for reform-minded politicians at the local level made it hard to promote advances.

    The exception for the post-1985 democracy is that now Brazil has a middle class sufficiently large to reward good government – i.e., not exclusively patron-client relations – at the local level. This is a long-term result of the policies of the previous governments, including the damned dictatorships. It takes time to improve a screwed-up situation; one can look at the half-full glass and both complain about still need to be done, and be happy about what has been accomplished. Reasonable people will keep an eye on both parts of the picture.

    You are mad about two things.
    1. My correct statement that massive deliberate mis-education won’t be easily fixed.
    2. My correct statement that the power-elite of Brazil did it intentionaly. (/i>

    Don’t worry, it takes far more than ignorant arrogance to get me mad. This is just the Internet, after all. As I said, if you believe in massive conspiracies involving millions of people and spanning several centuries, be my guest. I do agree with you on one point: deliberate mis-education isn’t easily fixable, but one must have always hope.

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  284. Contra MQ in 277, the science is pretty much settled on the question of IQ and the consensus is that there is a significant (two-thirds to three-quarters) genetic component that can’t be altered by any known means.

    wrong. Internet IQ cultists do not in general have any real understanding of the variance decomposition models used in twin studies or their numerous flaws. The “heritability” estimate of IQ drawn using these methods don’t tell you much about the real genetic basis of IQ or its potential flexibility with environment. (This is easier to see when you remember that these studies never observe or measure anything about any genetic basis for IQ — they just do a lot of numerical manipulation of the observation that monozygotic twins raised apart in U.S. adoptive families have had more similar IQs than dizygotic twins raised apart in U.S. adoptive families).

    Those models were developed for use in agricultural and animal experiments where environment and the gene/environment interaction could be perfectly controlled. In human twin studies this is simply not true — one does not control environmental variance, and the gene/environment interaction alone can drive many of the findings attributed by assumption to genetics alone. (E.g. if monozygotic twins have more similar environments than dizygotic twins this immediately means that heritability estimates are off as measurements of pure genetic influences on IQ, even if one ignores all other problems with the heredity model).

    There are much deeper problems associated with taking the heredity concept seriously as a prediction of the malleability of IQ in different environments. The Jensen conclusions on IQ are simply based on saying that because IQs of white twins raised apart don’t differ by nearly as much blacks and whites, then the “raised in a black family” environment can’t possibly be damaging enough to IQ development to account for black/white IQ score differences. This is a statement of faith, not science, which is why the kind of twin study stuff championed by Jensen has never attained real hard science credibility.

    There is a realistic set of statements to be made about large differences between measured black and white IQ and the persistence of those differences across a certain limited variety of environments. But that is a very long way from demonstrating that IQ is not malleable to environment or mostly determined by unchangeable genetics.

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  285. I agree that IQ does not determine a person’s worth, I never said it did.

    not only does IQ not determine a person’s spiritual worth, it determines only a fairly small fraction — less than 10% — of the variance in adult earnings. That’s a lot less abstract than spiritual worth, and it makes T’s point about the relatively small impact of IQ alone.

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  286. MQ 284, 285

    My intention here was not to get into a discussion about the genetic determinants of IQ. Charles Murray has covered the science of this extensively and anyone who’s interested can go there to start.

    None of this has to do with my larger point addressing the relative civilizational capabilities of the two races (or any two races, not just black and white), which involves much more than merely IQ. I repeat, has there ever been a black African city the equal of Rome, Paris or London? Is black African culture, its political philosophies, economic philosophies, religions, arts, sciences on par with that of its Western counterparts? The answers to these questions should be obvious. I refer again to Putnam’s books Race and Reason and the sequel Race and Reality as excellent sources for the scientific and historical data.

    The point of all this is that if we’re ever to restore true freedom in this country, to restore our tradition of individual rights as opposed to group rights, we have to discard the false expecations of equality of outcomes between the races. We have to discard the lie racial egalitarianism.

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  287. ae said I repeat, has there ever been a black African city the equal of Rome, Paris or London?
    Try accient Songhay and Mali.

    Is black African culture, its political philosophies, economic philosophies, religions, arts, sciences on par with that of its Western counterparts?
    What do you know what African religions? fun fact: Ethiopia has had Christianity much longer than Europe. Where is the arc of the covenant located? The economic philosophies worked for the people, how do you think they survived for so long. Arts- Almost the entire world enjoys African music or some derivative of it ex. Afro-Celtic music. For political philosophies look to the Yoruba kingdom, you will see an example of African democracy.

    Summery: Africa like Europe has had its’ ups and downs. Had colonialization(tp) and the trans Saharan and Atlantic slave trade not robbed Africa of 300 years who knows what it would be today.

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  288. chicnoir 287,

    Respectfully, I suggest that you are straining mightily here to make your argument. Yes, there is much to enjoy in African and African inspired music. I enjoy the early American Rock n’ Roll pioneers like Chuck Berry as well as Motown myself. But is that the same thing as saying that black African music is on par with the classical masters of Mozart, Schubert, Handel, Bach and Beethoven?

    Democracy is not an African invention (nor was Christianity), it was invented in the Greek city states around 2500 years ago. Further, the history of African civilization does not immediately generate images of democratic, consensual government. Your other examples such as economics seem to rely on the use of subjective rather than objective value. If I want to engage someone who denies objectivity I could go find a liberal, they’re all over the place.

    Your last point is very disappointing. It seemed to me this site might have been one of the few places where conservative ideas could be discussed without encountering the usual liberal “what if” platitudes. I guess I was wrong.

    Like


  289. ae –

    I was starting to respond to you, but i’m coming to realize you’re argument is too circular and outcome-based to ever grasp the points mq and i are trying to make, you simply keep missing the point and restating the same poorly reasoned conclusions. i would just suggest you read guns, germs and steel though. i know a lot of race realists dislike the book and cal it leftist because its not as ego boosting to them as they would like, but it explains a lot.

    Like


  290. on November 7, 2008 at 1:45 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @ 289 – Definitely a good book to read if you want to understand the factors behind European dominance of the world.

    It’s all basically geography. Jungles are not conducive to agriculture, which in turn is not conducive to civilization. The flood plains of India and China are good for agriculture, but they require overpopulation. The river and forest geography of Europe with year-round rain was the perfect mix.

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  291. It’s all basically geography.

    What then explains the fact that Israelis can make productive farms out of deserts and the Arabs can’t (or won’t) and under colonial or whtie rule African countries were prosperous and now they aren’t?

    I’m not one of the IQ-is-all types. In fact, I rue the fact that the whole subject of IQ has been highjacked by dull-witted nerds (see Half Sigma)

    Saying that “It’s all basically geography” is as dogmatic as anything an extreme race realist would say. IQ is part of it, as is culture and other factors.

    Like


  292. AE — I think you wildly underestimate the achievement of African and African-American-derived music (as well as dance, style, etc). As far as I’m concerned, it’s one of the two or three biggest cultural events of the 20th century. The only cultural story that equals it is the triumph of the movies. And yes it definitely deserves to be put in a class with Austro-German music of 18th and 19th centuries, at least IMHO. Count Basie? Duke Ellington? Louis Armstrong? Motown? I mean seriously, that’s an awesome lineup. Who and what equals that? Not only does it live on, black music and black style is now a worldwide thing. Everybody loves it and emulates it. You like it or you don’t, but I really don’t see how you can argue that it isn’t a staggering cultural achievement. Type “Jackie Wilson” into the YouTube Search box and be humbled.

    I’m with T./Ricky on the IQ thing, btw, except on one point. T. argues that he can’t see the point of the IQ facts/arguments going public. I see what he’s getting at, but as far as I can tell the cat’s already out of the bag. We’re talking about it here, books are being published on it … Too late for suppression. So for me the question becomes how to look at it in a positive light.

    As far as I’m concerned, the best thing to come of it is that people are (after 40 years of being officially prevented from doing so) beginning to talk about differences between ethnic/racial groups. In my view, that’s cool and fun. I wouldn’t want all ethnic/racial groups to be alike, would you? Where’s the fun in that? I have no problem saying they’re all of equal human worth, yet at the same time vary, and there are tons of individual exceptions to whatever valid generalizations might get made.

    Anyway … I think people have wildly overdone the “it’s all gonna lead to Naziism” dangers of acknowledging racial/ethnic differences. I think the suppression of those discussions has turned into its own kind of Naziism. So as far as I’m concerned, any open acknowledgement of difference that has any validity is kind of fun, and a relief, as long as it manages to get spun in a positive way. I do understand that the IQ thing may well piss off black people or hurt them. But 1) black people have nothing to apologize about culturally, and 2) cat’s already out of the bag. Let’s grab the topic (racial/ethnic diffs) and make it a positive.

    If anyone’s got a better strategy let me know about it.

    Like


  293. on November 7, 2008 at 2:47 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @ PA – Technology changes things. Once you have technology, geography matters a lot less. But who got technology first is where geography comes in. That’s why Europeans don’t dominate the world anymore; the technology spread to everyone. But the reason they were the first to dominate is geography.

    Like


  294. T 289-

    I have read Diamond’s book. If you want to argue that impersonal environmental forces have steered the evolutionary paths of the respective races, then I agree completely. I’ve never maintained that any one race is somehow inherently “better” in a metaphysical sense than any other, they are just on vastly different levels of the evolutionary scale. This is not just borne out by looking at history, it is evidenced in human anatomy (relative brain size, brain weight), histology, physical anthropology, kinesthetics, electrophysiology, genetics and physcology as well. See here:

    http://www.jrbooksonline.com/HTML-docs/race_and_reality_03.htm

    However, if you want to argue that Europeans were naturally exploratory because of the shape of the European continent, in that it was jagged and rough, making it difficult for the various peoples from bumping into each other, creating conflict and causing them to look outward for relief, then we have a problem. The only “just so” story I can immediately think of that trumps this one is neo-Darwinian evolution (random mutation plus natural selection as the causal mechanism for the origin of new life forms) or perhaps man-made global warming. Tell me, what are the crucial micro-climates that prevail in southern California that explain the differences between San Diego and Tijuana? Even Victor Hanson, the liberal neocon (far from race realist), has little use for Diamond’s thesis.

    MQ brought up a point a short while ago contrasting the Romans with the northern barbarians as proof that my argument is unfounded. What he’s (she?) missing is that once the barbarians were exposed to the remnants of classical civilization and the Christian religion through the missionary work of the Catholic Church, they took them and developed the most advanced civilization (the West) in history. For you to be correct, among many other things you would have to be able to explain why the African peoples of (former) Rhodesia and South Africa have thus far utterly failed to maintain the First World status of those countries following the end of white rule.

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  295. I’m with T./Ricky on the IQ thing, btw, except on one point. T. argues that he can’t see the point of the IQ facts/arguments going public. I see what he’s getting at, but as far as I can tell the cat’s already out of the bag. We’re talking about it here, books are being published on it … Too late for suppression. So for me the question becomes how to look at it in a positive light.

    I don’t have a problem with the information going public. What I don’t get is the obsessive dwelling on it. What practical realistic policy application can you get out of the info even if you got every person to acknowledge this fact. All average IQ of a race tells you is how forgiving a race’s history has traditionally been to the existence of stupid people. It’s harder for stupid people to survive in a harsh ice-covered, war-torn, densely populated enviornment so they get weeded out. Easier for not so smart people to survive in a tropical environment so they don’t get weeded out and drive the average IQ down. When you point out one race has a lower average IQ than another race, all you’ve pointed out is that the lower IQ race had a history that was forgiving to stupid people and the smarter race had a history that was less forgiving to stupid people.

    So now say you’ve established that one’s race has a lower IQ on average than another. Say you get EVERY single person to accept this. Fine. Now what? All you’ve proven is that one race evolved in a harsher environment than another. What practical policy initiiatives will you now enact?

    Liberals who support affirmative action will just use it to back up their views. They’ll say “See? This is why non-Asian minorities really need our help. I’m more committed to affirmative action than ever. They are genetically cursed to be lower IQ, so I propose a never ending affirmative action for them!” Anti-Affirmative action people will just say “See, they are doomed to failure and can’t compete because of lower IQ anyway. So let’s stop propping them up. Now more than ever we need to end affirmative action.” NO CLEAR CUT PATH OF ACTION COMES FROM FOCUSING ON THIS ISSUE, PLUS IT BOILS DOWN TO NOTHING BUT EVIDENCE OF A RACE’S HISTORICAL CONDITIONS ANYWAY. It’s a waste, there are millions of better, less incendiary ways to attack affirmative action.

    I’ve never seen a race realist ever give me a practical policy path they plan to pursue once they got the world to accept IQ differentials. Honestly, I don’t think they put much thoughts into it. I can find tons of books and blogs aimed at IQ differentials but little discussing how acknowledgment of these differentials will practically improve public policy and people’s lives in any way. Acknowledgment of IQ differentials to me doesn’t seem to be the mean to a better end in their minds, to me it’s simply the end in and of itself, yet thye don’t want to admit it and dress it up in noble, altruistic motives.

    Pickup artists were smart former “nice guys” that were feel lied to once they found out they weren’t entitled to pussy for being nice and smart like society told them. They become bitter from this disillusionment. Race realists in my experience are people who grew up believing that high IQ made them entitled to highest status. After all, this was how education worked growing up. Smartest guy gets highest grades and most honors. Smartest guy gets to address the rest of the graduates as valedictorian, implying that high IQ makes him the leader of the rest. If their socially awkward, society tells them high IQ is the highest trait, so they don’t need to worry about the cool kids and the bullies, because in the end thanks to their high IQs they’d all be Bill Gates and everyone else would work in gas stations and they’d get the last laugh.

    Just like the beta virgin gets disillusioned by not picking up girls the way they thought they would as adults and becomes an obsessed pickup artist, the high IQ fetishist hits some type of wall in their career or life, gets disillusioned and becomes an obsessed race realist. Like the pickup artists blames feminism and other betas, the race realist blames nonasian minorites and liberal elites. This is why this pickup artist/race realist overlap we’re seeing on this blog makes perfect sense.

    The difference between the pickup artist and the race realist, however, is that while both are revealing necessary truths, the race realist is much more myopic and impractical. The mature pickup artist can at least admit that they have historically had a role in contributing to the very problem they rail against. The race realist has a LOT of trouble acknowledging that the Northern European’s shortsighted pursuit of the fast buck, status, social engineering experiments, colonial empire and most importantly CHEAP LABOR AT ANY COST has been the biggest contribution to the current problems they rail against.

    The pickup artist at least can point to some practical applications that can come from their pursuit: boys will be raised to understand women better, women can get men that understand what they like, feminists may eventually see the error of their ways, western women can find a lifestyle more in tune with their intrinsic gender values rather than pursue a career man’s life, virgins can get laid, beta males can get more pussy. Race realism, and their IQ obsession, I simply see no practical use to. As I pointed out, even if everyone on earth accepted the IQ findings and the race realists in their conclusions, AA-advocates and anti-AA-advocates would just both use the info to become further entrenched in their values and fight their positions harder.

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  296. on November 7, 2008 at 4:33 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @ 295 – A little long, but I agree with the point: no practical policy prescriptions can come from it, so what’s the point in discussing it so much.

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  297. MQ –

    I have read Diamond’s book. If you want to argue that impersonal environmental forces have steered the evolutionary paths of the respective races, then I agree completely. I’ve never maintained that any one race is somehow inherently “better” in a metaphysical sense than any other, they are just on vastly different levels of the evolutionary scale. This is not just borne out by looking at history, it is evidenced in human anatomy (relative brain size, brain weight), histology, physical anthropology, kinesthetics, electrophysiology, genetics and physcology as well. See here:

    You answer your own question in this paragraph. Low IQ people and high IQ people have different types of brains. If you can agree that impersonal environmental forces have steered the evolutionary paths of the respective races, leading to different IQs, then OF COURSE THERE WILL BE AN ANATOMICAL DIFFERENCE TO THE BRAINS OF BOTH RACES. A certain type of brain anatomy accompanies certain types of IQs. The fact that these societies have different brain size, brain weight, genetics and physiology is more likely to support Diamond’s theory than refute it, because it just shows differences in history of natural genetic selection for each race, which could easily have been caused by the factors Diamond suggests.

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  298. 298, Seeking Alpha – Sorry for the length but I get so tired of every good article about game or politics boiling down to this race realism obsession I just wanted to address everything at once.

    Like


  299. What then explains the fact that Israelis can make productive farms out of deserts and the Arabs can’t (or won’t) and under colonial or whtie rule African countries were prosperous and now they aren’t?

    Because by that point the IQ differentials and differences in societies Jared Diamond explains were well-established and entrenched. Those examples don’t disprove Diamond’s theories, they are the natural, expected result of those theories.

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  300. @ TA & SA

    right on to you guys. all this race realist bullshit is just aimed at making bitter white guys feel better about themselves. it’s the exact same as women who cling to radical feminism to make them feel better about their diminishing prospects to find a mate they ‘deserve’; or blacks who cling to some radical vision of black nationalism wherein blacks are the perpetual victims of white conspiracies. stand up on your own two feet and stop hiding behind your sex, or your color, or your ethnicity.

    all of these ideologies have some germ of truth; but it’s not the ‘truth’ of the theory, it’s what you do with it. i will forever speak out against the welfare state, against quotas and set-asides for any group, and against the idea that western civilization needs to apologize to and placate the rest of the world. and you know what? i don’t need crackpot racist theories to do it.

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  301. on November 7, 2008 at 4:50 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @ T – No problem for me. I’m reading about ‘The Rearden’. Good stuff. You write like I write… way too many words. But it’s a blog, not a business memo, so who gives a shit, right?

    Like


  302. @ PA & AE

    you guys need put the IQ stuff down and pick up a history book. where do you get this idea that european colonies were all well-run and prosperous? granted, a lot of these post-colonial states are shit-shows now, and that’s in large part because they were de-colonized too quickly. zimbabwe is a perfect example.

    the problem is the assertion that there places were in good shape under colonialism. that’s akin to the arguments from slaveholders in the american south who argued that their slaves were better off here in america being put to ‘productive’ work than back in the jungles of africa. there were two types of colonies: places like the americas, australia, parts of india, and southern africa where europeans actually migrated. those places might fit with your argument. there where, however, other places, like most of sub-saharan africa, where the whole infrastructure of colonialism was set up to extract natural resource wealth. those places were only productive to the home countries.

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  303. T 295 –

    This is an excellent post. What is the point of demonstrating the intractable biological differences (far more than just IQ) between the races? That is the question isn’t it. I think most true conservatives view the radical racial restructuring of American society during the 50’s and 60’s as having massive and enduring negative consequences on our way of life.

    Brown v. Board of Education was decided based on the false assumption of inherent biological equality between blacks and whites and led to forced integration and busing. The Civil Rights Act was the result of the same false assumption and led to institutionalized racial quotas throughout every level of our society. Same with the Great Society, a many trillions of dollars money pit of wealth transfers from whites to non-whites. The 1965 Immigration Act was borne of the same lie as well and as a result, the United States is a few decades away from sinking irretrievably into a balkanized, Brazilianized hellhole.

    There were many other things that went wrong as well during the liberal revolution, feminism and rabid secularism for example. But I think it’s very difficult to overstate the damage that’s been wrought by the ideology of racial egalitarianism. It must be fully discredited if we’re to return to the Republic envisioned by the Founders.

    Further, I blame white people for this. White America abdicated its rightful leadership role in American society and allowed itself and American history and traditions to become delegitimized. Now everyone is paying the price as our country moves so far to the left as to elect a cultural Marxist to the presidency. The parts of Jim Crow that needed to end could have ended without swinging the pendulum to the other extreme.

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  304. T 297 –

    Well, you know where I stand on Diamond’s theory. But it doesn’t matter, Diamond’s right, Diamond’s wrong, the evolution has already taken place over many thousands of years. What we’re left with (in the case of black and white) are two races separated by lots of space on the evolutionary scale.

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  305. Black music is meaningless.

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  306. on November 7, 2008 at 6:06 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @ AE – Well you won’t get much out of T, Lance or me continuing on that tract. I don’t think any of us are fans of bringing race into public policy in any way, in either a positive or a negative way.

    But I think T made a good point…

    Liberals who support affirmative action will just use it to back up their views. They’ll say “See? This is why non-Asian minorities really need our help. I’m more committed to affirmative action than ever. They are genetically cursed to be lower IQ, so I propose a never ending affirmative action for them!” Anti-Affirmative action people will just say “See, they are doomed to failure and can’t compete because of lower IQ anyway. So let’s stop propping them up. Now more than ever we need to end affirmative action.”

    The fact can drive policy in either direction.

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  307. Seeking_Alpha 306 –

    That’s helpful to know, thanks. I’ll just say that race is a huge part of public policy already as I tried to demonstrate in my last post, 303. And the list could have been much longer. The problem is that the assumptions about race are all wrong. I guess I believe that truth cannot hurt, but only help. That is the nature of truth.

    What’s the saying, “You may not be interested in race, but race is interested in you.”

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  308. on November 7, 2008 at 6:23 pm Seeking_Alpha

    @ AE – How exactly can it help? Let’s hear some specifics.

    Like


  309. As a follow up to 307:

    Race is not everything (Nazism), it is not nothing either (Communism). It makes up a part of who we are as humans and I don’t think it’s realistic to expect that it can be completely expunged from the public sphere. There is a responsible and moral middle ground that exists.

    I think this is as far as I can take the thread. Signing off.

    Like


  310. In my view, that’s cool and fun. I wouldn’t want all ethnic/racial groups to be alike, would you? Where’s the fun in that?

    Maybe it would be better, since with no differences, everybody is equal. No more fretting over differences of IQ between races.

    I have no problem saying they’re all of equal human worth

    Is human worth based on simply being born, or is it what one can offer in terms of productivity to the world? Certain classes of people with their IQ rhetoric seem to imply that the latter is more important.

    Let’s grab the topic (racial/ethnic diffs) and make it a positive.

    I don’t think it’s possible to look at ethnic differences and make it a positive. I don’t see how pointing out low IQ is going to magically make white people less racist, nor do I comprehend how saying black people made jazz will paper over that fact.

    I don’t have a problem with the information going public.

    The problem is that people stereotype all black people as stupid. Given that we’re already labeled as lazy and criminally inclined, why should we add stupid to the mix? As somebody who’d like to maintain his white friends and finds white women to be attractive, I’d prefer this information to “go away” lest my access be closed off. No white person would date (and marry) a black person for a long-term relationship, and I’d contend that people wouldn’t befriend black people either.

    If one can be bold, one this information becomes public, when combined with the end of affirmative action, one could argue that the black middle class will simply shrivel up and die. Nobody’s going to ever take a risk on a black employee due to stereotyping of low intelligence.

    but little discussing how acknowledgment of these differentials will practically improve public policy and people’s lives in any way

    From what I’ve seen, most of the race realists couldn’t be bothered with that aspect. Most of the solutions have either been focused on deporting the low IQ or restricting their ability to have children. Then there are the few who believe that gene manipulation can work, and most of those people think the ability is coming in the short-term.

    Like


  311. Mark in Ark
    Black music is meaningless.

    Yet you watch Beyonce videos over and over again while greasy hand plays with your neither regions.

    chicnoir 287,

    Respectfully, I suggest that you are straining mightily here to make your argument. Yes, there is much to enjoy in African and African inspired music. I enjoy the early American Rock n’ Roll pioneers like Chuck Berry as well as Motown myself. But is that the same thing as saying that black African music is on par with the classical masters of Mozart, Schubert, Handel, Bach and Beethoven This is debatable. I prefer African music but classical music isn’t bad. Music is for the people to decide not some socially asckward beta scientist to dictate to the people what type of music is best .

    Democracy is not an African invention (nor was Christianity), it was invented in the Greek city states around 2500 years ago. Further, the history of African civilization does not immediately generate images of democratic, consensual government
    Ah, there is a reason African civilizations do not generate images of such. It’s because you have been fed the opposite from the six o’clock news. As I mentioned earlier, read up on the ancient Yoruba kingdom, you will find a very precise version of African democracy

    Your other examples such as economics seem to rely on the use of subjective rather than objective value. If I want to engage someone who denies objectivity I could go find a liberal, they’re all over the place.
    AE, I see where you are driving at. I also notice you failed to mention where(geographically) Christianity developed. How about looking at the land of modern day Iran and Iraq for an idea-Caucasian yes, white not so much*. FYI Jesus most likely looked a lot like Roosh. The countries in the horn of Africa along played an important role in the establishment of Islam and Christianity. I mentioned Ethiopia because the country was Christian long before Europe.
    Your last point is very disappointing. It seemed to me this site might have been one of the few places where conservative ideas could be discussed without encountering the usual liberal “what if” platitudes. I guess I was wrong
    there are plenty of what if platitudes to be found here. Check the election comments for plenty of them.

    BTW, I am well aware that speaking/writing about your whiteness to put others down makes you feel great. Just remember that you are not Bill Gates, Steve Jobs or Queen Elizabeth anymore than I am Barack Obama or Condaleeza Rice. Stand on your own merit sir.

    P.S.
    The Greeks who you claim as your fellow whites are just “barely” white. However, I understand your need to hold on to their accomplishments because without them, the bases of claiming that European societies are superior begin to look shaky at best

    I’m done with this race sh*t.

    Like


  312. The Greeks who you claim as your fellow whites are just “barely” white.

    you’re wrong. whatta surprise.
    gene studies have proved that southern euros, including greeks, are white, with just a small amount of *north* african and levantine admixture, and very little to no sub-saharan black admixture at all.

    do you just like to spew shit with zero recourse to logic or facts?

    Like


  313. Roissy, I didn’t not write that the Greeks are part blk. I was writing about their coloring.

    Like


  314. Long after antiquity, the Greeks also were occupied for a couple of centuries by the Ottoman Empire, Turks.

    Like


  315. and they use a phonecian alphabet.

    I came across a study years ago that mentioned the cycle cell gene can be found in some Southern Europeans.

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  316. I was writing about their coloring.

    nice backpedal.

    you wrote: “The Greeks who you claim as your fellow whites are just “barely” white.”

    greeks are on average light olive skinned. like italians. many are pale. aside from skin tone, greeks have caucasian facial features. they are far from “barely white”, whether by the measure of skin color or by genetic affinity. they are, indeed, MUCH closer to white skinned than to black skinned. you knew what you were insinuating when you wrote your nonsense above.

    know this, chic. i am going to call you out on your bullshit whenever i see it. you are in my freefire zone, a designated target, and my guns are fully operational. you will get no free passes from me, so you’d best hope i don’t stumble across your slippery lies too often in these comment sections.

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  317. I was writing about their coloring.

    nice backpedal.

    you wrote: “The Greeks who you claim as your fellow whites are just “barely” white.”

    yes roissy dark hair which is sometimes curly and dark eyes. Are you Greek? Um not all, I’ve come across Greek women who were only a shade or two lighter than myself.
    greeks have caucasian facial features
    nope, broad nose for a caucasian and lips as thick and larger than my own.

    know this, chic. i am going to call you out on your bullshit whenever i see it

    you can
    who am I to stop you 🙂

    you are in my freefire zone, a designated target

    i gussed as much.
    I think you really are turned on by my juicy booty but your game wont work here.

    Like


  318. yes roissy dark hair which is sometimes curly and dark eyes.

    right. it’s completely unheard of for other european ethnics to have dark or curly hair or dark eyes.
    keep lying, liar. it’s my pleasure to shit all over you.

    Are you Greek?

    irrelevant.

    I’ve come across Greek women who were only a shade or two lighter than myself.

    hey, that’s wonderful. but “coming across” is not the same as “on average”.
    ya dumbass.

    nope

    yep.

    broad nose for a caucasian and lips as thick and larger than my own.

    so you’ve measured every greek nose and lip in greece?
    other caucasians like poles or germans don’t have people with broad noses and thick lips?
    you know what i think? i think you are 100% dumbass liar.
    here’s a fact you can wrap your lying bullshitting noggin around: greeks are genotypically and phenotypically caucasian. they belong to the subethnic group of southern europeans, but they are nowhere near “brown” or “black”. they look caucasian, in skin tone and in facial morphology. and that directly refutes your original contention to the contrary that greeks are “barely white”.

    you can

    i will.

    I think you really are turned on by my juicy booty but your game wont work here.

    this defensive maneuver will not work with me.

    Like


  319. keep giving me attention, i love it roissy

    😉

    Like


  320. keep giving me attention, i love it roissy

    i know. you’re a sucker for a badboy.
    but my heart belongs to another.

    Like


  321. 295 T

    I’ve never seen a race realist ever give me a practical policy path they plan to pursue once they got the world to accept IQ differentials. Honestly, I don’t think they put much thoughts into it.

    Well, I can’t speak for other race realists, but this is definitely something I have thought about.

    To start:

    – FUCK THIS NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND BULLSHIT. In a world where IQ differentials were accepted, such lunacy would be all but impossible. The number of capable students of all races being dragged back by the legislated need to teach to the worst and most disruptive in the class is staggering. (Above-average blacks may be the group hurt most by this phenomenon, actually.) Instead, performance could be compared to REALISTIC expectations, and good, rather than cheating, teachers could be rewarded. Granted, there is some wishful thinking involved here — the lack of accountability in our public K-12 school system is a very deep problem that can’t be solved by race realism alone. But as long as even measuring teacher performance accurately is anathema, there’s no way in hell we’ll fix it.

    – Rational immigration policy. There is no good reason for us to tolerate immigration from those whose descendants will not assimilate — and while race realism is not absolutely required to understand why the majority of Mexican illegal immigrants aren’t going to assimilate unless we radically change our attitude toward them, it sure helps. So many people want to become American citizens that we can (i) afford to pick and choose who to give the privilege to, and (ii) we actually have to do so, if we’re interested in remaining a superpower.

    Right now, America is still broadly being “beta” and letting these illegals and the selfish employers who exploit them walk all over the interest of the rest of the citizenry. It’s time for us to assert what American residence and citizenship are really worth, and demand that these guys accept our norms if they want to stay here (and kick the rest out).

    – A rational approach to Africa. Most charity is a waste of money. But targeting IQ-increasing environmental improvements, and having realistic expectations so, again, the teachers and others who exceed them can be identified and promoted, instead of the cheaters who are the only ones that can exceed unrealistic expectations, will go a very long way to raising African performance to somewhere near US black levels. Then the stage will be set for them to adopt the genetic and/or pharmaceutical enhancements necessary for them to close any non-environmental components of the IQ gap, if that’s economically necessary (and, barring a Singularity, it probably will be).

    (Similar comments apply to India’s treatment of its own lower castes. A billion people here, a billion people there, soon you’re talking about making a real difference.)

    This is just off the top of my head. I’m sure I can come up with several other important policy changes that probably won’t happen without race realism.

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  322. Chris, IQ Race Differentials are unnecessary for ANY of that. Not a bit of it:

    To start:

    – FUCK THIS NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND BULLSHIT. In a world where IQ differentials were accepted, such lunacy would be all but impossible. The number of capable students of all races being dragged back by the legislated need to teach to the worst and most disruptive in the class is staggering. (Above-average blacks may be the group hurt most by this phenomenon, actually.) Instead, performance could be compared to REALISTIC expectations, and good, rather than cheating, teachers could be rewarded. Granted, there is some wishful thinking involved here — the lack of accountability in our public K-12 school system is a very deep problem that can’t be solved by race realism alone. But as long as even measuring teacher performance accurately is anathema, there’s no way in hell we’ll fix it.

    You can form realistic expectations simply based on past performance. If a kid is consistently bad on tests or consistently bad in behavior, take him out of the class and let the good kids learn. Give every kid aptitude tests to figure out where they belong in the school system. If he’s too bad in behavior to reform or too unwilling to learn, expel him. This is how we did it when I was growing up. Why do we need broadly-based race and IQ findings for this? And any suggestion you come up with from race and IQ stats, a lib can think of an opposite suggestion from same findings, like saying that we should keep all the kids in school together because the diversity helps all the kids, but just give the lower scoring students grade inflation on a curve to compensate for their lower aptitude or create some government funded tutoring program to give them extra help and eventually they’ll learn to catch up. Pointing out race and IQ stats will not magically make the No Child Left Behind people see the error of their ways, it will just make them come up with new rationales and adjustments to their existing program. And in the meantime you will stir up so much unnecessary and volatile polarization, good luck getting anything tangible done amidst all the spinning, demonization and political opportunism by leftists. It’s pretty much the most politically unsavvy way of getting your goal that I can think of.

    – Rational immigration policy. There is no good reason for us to tolerate immigration from those whose descendants will not assimilate — and while race realism is not absolutely required to understand why the majority of Mexican illegal immigrants aren’t going to assimilate unless we radically change our attitude toward them, it sure helps. So many people want to become American citizens that we can (i) afford to pick and choose who to give the privilege to, and (ii) we actually have to do so, if we’re interested in remaining a superpower.

    IQ is irrelevant to this. All you have to do is focus on skills. Skew the immigration numbers by admitting less unskilled workers and focusing more on increasing the numbers of skilled workers. A lot of the elite professions lobby to keep caps on skilled immigrants extra low as a form of protectionism for professionals, this is where you’d be better off attacking than wasting time with race and IQ arguments. You want to encourage assimilation, create incentives for assimilation. Show statistics and conduct studies that show that assimilated immigrants by and large succeed at a much higher rate and make much more money than immigrants that don’t. Use these studies to then sell the public policy that making immigrants assimilate is actually helping them not hurting them. Institute changes in INS like not allowing translators during permanent resident and citizenship interviews, if the immigrant can’t get through the interview process on their own knowledge of English, they fail. Create strict language test requirements for immigration. Create incentive programs for assimilation, for example if you can pass a battery of tests designed to test for assimilation, your immigration process can get fasttracked. I can sit here and think of a ton of incentive and punishment strategies and immigration reforms that can be implements without having to once touch the IQ topic, which is a political third rail, something that will stall any discussion the moment it comes up.

    Right now, America is still broadly being “beta” and letting these illegals and the selfish employers who exploit them walk all over the interest of the rest of the citizenry. It’s time for us to assert what American residence and citizenship are really worth, and demand that these guys accept our norms if they want to stay here (and kick the rest out).

    Yes, but seriously imagine trying to sell that to Congress and a President. There are so many minorities in this country, no politician would want to sign off on anything dedicated to spotlighting race and IQ differences, because when reelection comes around his political opponent would DEMOLISH him with it by spinning it. “John Smith voted on a bill saying that African-Americans are too stupid to ever amount to anything, that Hispanics are too dumb to allow inside America. Vote Jim Williams on Nov. 5 and show John Smith that hate and stereotypes are not what America is about.”

    – A rational approach to Africa. Most charity is a waste of money. But targeting IQ-increasing environmental improvements, and having realistic expectations so, again, the teachers and others who exceed them can be identified and promoted, instead of the cheaters who are the only ones that can exceed unrealistic expectations, will go a very long way to raising African performance to somewhere near US black levels. Then the stage will be set for them to adopt the genetic and/or pharmaceutical enhancements necessary for them to close any non-environmental components of the IQ gap, if that’s economically necessary (and, barring a Singularity, it probably will be).

    No need for IQ for this. It’s an entitlement program, a form of socialism, money and benefits given for nothing in return. THIS STRATEGY FAILS EVERYWHERE, EVEN HIGH IQ COUNTRIES. Collectivization failed in high-IQ China. High-IQ India tried socialism and went into the shitter. High IQ whites in East Germany and West Germany are the same people with the same genetic background, but socialism ruined one country so badly that they are having reintegration troubles to this day. A good conservative economist like Sowell could craft a convincing argument against foreign aid to 3rd world countries much better without having to touch IQ arguments.

    Introduce an IQ argument, and this is what will happen, because I understand the lefty mind. The race realists like you will say this is proof conclusive we shouldn’t give aid. Lefties will say this proves more than ever they need our help, and they need it indefinitely. Both sides become more entrenched. IQ arguments will simply make bleeding hearts bleed more. And in the meantime, all the IQ arguments will turn off a lot of people.

    Even many conservatives who may be for your suggested education reforms, immigration policies and foreign aid ideas will back away from the fray once that IQ third rail is introduced. Meanwhile, opponents will take that IQ information and just incorporate it into their lefty positions. We’ll see federal dollars funneled into things like “Bridge the Gap” or some nonsense like that. And let’s not even get into all the protests by angry offended minorities you’ll see on the news all the time.

    I guarantee you even if you got everyone to accept race and IQ findings, both sides on the right and left would each just use the findings to further justify the positions they already have.

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  323. This is just off the top of my head. I’m sure I can come up with several other important policy changes that probably won’t happen without race realism.

    Hit “submit” early.

    Not only can all those policy changes happen without race realism, they are MORE LIKELY to happen without it. Any good conservative economist from Friedman to Sowell can shred any of those programs using past history, discussions of human nature, behavioral economics, discussion of introducing proper incentives, test scores and a ton of other less inflammatory paths. This self-serving myth by race realists that notifying the world of their superior IQ is the only way to save it is ridiculous. It would just complicate the discussions, not clarify them. Just the amount of time dedicated to experts on each side debating IQ findings would be exhausting.

    Like


  324. T./Ricky writes: I don’t have a problem with the information going public. What I don’t get is the obsessive dwelling on it.

    Agreed.

    Now what? All you’ve proven is that one race evolved in a harsher environment than another. What practical policy initiatives will you now enact?

    But you’re judging the validity or worth of a fact according to whether “practical policy initiatives” can be drawn from it. Facts are one thing. Reactions — let alone “what we make of ’em” — are another. An example is the statement “Poor people exist.” It’s an interesting fact by itself. But what practical policy initiatives get drawn from it — if any — is very much up for debate. In other words, the fact has validity and interest on its own. What might or might not be done about it is another discussion, no?

    But I suspect that what you’re arguing against isn’t the fact — I mean, there the fact is, or seems to be. It’s instead the way some people dwell on it, and circle back to it over and over, as though doing so is going to yield something important or worthwhile. And I think you’re arguing that dragging IQ questions into public debate isn’t necessary and will likely to be counterproductive. I’m with you on all that. The obsessiveness is weird, isn’t it? I like your analysis of who obsesses about it and why they do so. And the social cluelessness of the people who think IQ ought to be the basis for social policy is just bizarre. Given that any politician who’d dare to raise the topic would be slaughtered by the media and the influence groups in a nanosecond, it just ain’t gonna happen.

    Nonetheless, there the fact is, the obsessives aren’t letting go of it, and the existence of the web means that the genie is out of the bottle and isn’t going back in. Public-policy debates are one thing.

    But how about public discourse more generally? Suppression isn’t going to work as a way of responding any longer. You can say “We aren’t going there” until the cows come home, but it isn’t going to work. Those days are past. Besides, on an informal level everyone knows that the Germans and the Italians are different in some general ways, as are the Vietnamese and the Irish. And the more open people become about these things, the more of a gap develops between official discourse and informal discourse. That creates tensions. I wonder how those tensions will play out. Any ideas?

    DA writes: Is human worth based on simply being born, or is it what one can offer in terms of productivity to the world? Certain classes of people with their IQ rhetoric seem to imply that the latter is more important.

    Then fuck ’em. It’s better – as well as more productive — to assert the equal value of all humans than it is to let yourself get caught up in the arguments of people who just aren’t going to let their one obsessive point go, isn’t it? Say, in a disbelieving, laughing tone, “You mean you’re saying that you judge the value of a person’s worth by his/her IQ? What a dweeb!” And then laugh uproariously. And, if you’re up to it, steal his wife.

    I don’t think it’s possible to look at ethnic differences and make it a positive.

    Really? Why not? Population groups vary in all kinds of different ways. Why isn’t it possible to see and experience that a cool thing? Look, you walk into the vegetable section of a store. Each item there is of equal worth as a vegetable. But that doesn’t mean each item is the same identical head of cabbage. It also doesn’t mean that you’d want each item to be the same identical head of cabbage. Instead, there are peppers, celery, kale, potatoes, onions … It isn’t a sea of monotonous similarity, it’s an appetizing and appealing cornucopia of tastes, colors, textures. Why not enjoy?

    I’d prefer this information to “go away”…

    Understood. Still, it isn’t going to go away. It just isn’t. And more and more information about biochemical diffs between population groups is going to be emerging as genomes continue getting cracked. Seems more sensible to spin the whole “population groups have some differences” thing into a positive than to try to deny it, since the latter battle is lost already, and is only going to be vanquished yet further.

    Here’s one way of spinning it: All population groups are bundles of (relative) talents and (relative) deficits. The Bushmen have certain qualities, the Scotch-Irish another (overlapping) set of talents and deficits, Peruvian Indians yet another … As people they’re all of equal worth. As population groups they have somewhat different flavors and textures. Overfocusing on IQ is ludicrous, because even if it’s real it’s one small arrow in a large quiver of attributes, all of which demand and deserve attention and acknowledgment.

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  325. 322 T

    You can form realistic expectations simply based on past performance. If a kid is consistently bad on tests or consistently bad in behavior, take him out of the class and let the good kids learn. Give every kid aptitude tests to figure out where they belong in the school system. If he’s too bad in behavior to reform or too unwilling to learn, expel him. This is how we did it when I was growing up. Why do we need broadly-based race and IQ findings for this?

    Because without them, the great and the good will continue to insist that unequal racial results are due to discrimination and mistreatment, and continue to legislate garbage program after garbage program to try to eliminate the gap. How the hell do you think something as dumb as NCLB passed anyway? It only makes sense if you assume huge numbers of badly performing kids actually have the necessary aptitude and just haven’t exhibited it because teachers haven’t given them a chance. The same idea is behind the subprime mortgage component of our financial crisis.

    The same principle applies to my other points — you can argue for the same policies without explicit reference to race and IQ, but you cannot accurately PREDICT AND FAIRLY MEASURE OUTCOMES if you are compelled to assume all races have roughly the same aptitude distributions.

    The race realists like you will say this is proof conclusive we shouldn’t give aid.

    …except that that isn’t what I said! I explicitly said we SHOULD give aid, with a significant portion targeted at raising African IQ (and much of the rest targeted at establishing culture and institutions that are stable in the face of the distribution of African personalities). Without race realism, it is all but impossible to design an aid program that actually works.

    Now, you argue that foreign aid cannot work, period. But my very existence proves you wrong. My parents were born in Taiwan, a… uh, political entity… that would not have flourished (or even been able to defend itself from Communist China) without a lot of help from the US in the ’50’s and ’60’s. Yes, Taiwan weaned itself off US money as quickly as it was able to. But American advice was indispensable in crafting a development plan that actually worked, after the same group of leaders proved incapable of doing it on their own back when they were in control of China. And Hong Kong and Singapore, far from being turned into hellholes by colonialism, are among the most prosperous and economically free places on the planet because the British set up much better systems in both places than the Chinese could design on their own at the time.

    Not only can all those policy changes happen without race realism, they are MORE LIKELY to happen without it.

    Again, you underestimate the importance of the prediction and measurement problem. These changes cannot happen as long as political correctness forces bureaucrats to assume all races have essentially identical aptitude distributions.

    This self-serving myth by race realists that notifying the world of their superior IQ is the only way to save it is ridiculous. It would just complicate the discussions, not clarify them. Just the amount of time dedicated to experts on each side debating IQ findings would be exhausting.

    You asked what I would advocate “after we got the world to accept IQ differentials,” and I took your hypothetical at face value. I do not actually think “notifying the world of [our] superior IQ” is the right approach. I just want to see the Blank Slate racket destroyed so adults can take over again.

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  326. Because without them, the great and the good will continue to insist that unequal racial results are due to discrimination and mistreatment, and continue to legislate garbage program after garbage program to try to eliminate the gap. How the hell do you think something as dumb as NCLB passed anyway? It only makes sense if you assume huge numbers of badly performing kids actually have the necessary aptitude and just haven’t exhibited it because teachers haven’t given them a chance. The same idea is behind the subprime mortgage component of our financial crisis.

    Did you read my answer to this point in my last comment. WITH race and IQ figures, I guarantee you lefties will just still force diversity but just make a grading curve. Keep the kids with less aptitude in the class, just give the lower IQ kids a grade boost and the high IQ kids get points shaven off. They will just say that diversity is too valuable to a childs formative years to sacrifice, so despite the IQ and race argument, we should keep all the kids of different races and IQ together but just practice a form of grade socialism. That’s my point about how race and IQ won’t work when introduced in arguments because it won’t change a Marxist’s mind, the evidence will just increase the severity of their proposed Marxism. If you tell them the differences are deep and permanent, they’ll just suggest a deeper and permanent Marxism to match it. But it would take years to even get got to the point of policy change because there would be months to years of debates fighting the IQ findings tooth and nail.

    And Chris, using education for example, what is the outcome IQ and race studies can give you that are so impossible to get without IQ and race arguments? Say you got IQ and race differentials as accepted dogma. Where would you go from there? Put all the black kids on a slow track for education based on lowered expectations? Good luck selling that to black parents. And what about smart black kids like me that could totally hang with the high IQ white kids? Would you put people like me in the slow track with the lower IQ curriculum because of my race? What about the low IQ white kids, are you going to assume all white kids to be capable of higher curriculums because of THEIR race? And if you did keep the lower IQ kids in the slow track, leftists would argue that you are creating a reinforcing loop, by keeping dumber kids in dumber classes, you are guaranteeing they stay dumb. Race and IQ arguments won’t magically make them see the errors of their methods, they can use the information to justify their views the same way you can use it to justify yours.

    So back to using high IQ black kids and low IQ white kids as examples: lots of black kids with high IQ potential get stuck in the slow track, lots of low IQ white kids get stuck on the fast track, so segregating by IQ expectations based on race won’t work. A better step to make sure it is fair would be to do indiviual IQ testing then. At that point, if you’re doing individual IQ and aptitude testing, is there any need to incorporate average racial IQ testing arguments? You can justify it on individual IQ findings, even if a majority of the low-IQ individuals turn out to be nonAsian minorities.

    Besides, do you realize the lengthy and expensive Supreme Court battles that would ensue on Equal Protection grounds if you explicitly took that segregation by racial IQ route?

    Here’s an example that I guarantee you would work better than the political headache of race and IQ and any Brave New World IQ segregation solutions. Find out what dumb kids like and make it an incentive. NY is toying with an idea of creating monetary rewards tied to performance. The kids have performance and attendance benchmarks to hit, and based on these benchmarks they receive a sliding scale of financial rewards.

    Here’s a persuasive argument by Sowell about improving black student performance that doesn;t touch race and IQ correlations:

    http://www.tsowell.com/speducat.html

    My challenge to you is this, if you want to illustrate what I;m talking about: read this to a diverse group of friends of yours who are not race realists, then read it to another group of diverse friends of different races and backgrounds except this time pepper it with racial IQ arguments throughout. See which methods turns up the most stumbling blocks.

    Now, you argue that foreign aid cannot work, period. But my very existence proves you wrong. My parents were born in Taiwan, a… uh, political entity… that would not have flourished (or even been able to defend itself from Communist China) without a lot of help from the US in the ’50’s and ’60’s. Yes, Taiwan weaned itself off US money as quickly as it was able to. But American advice was indispensable in crafting a development plan that actually worked, after the same group of leaders proved incapable of doing it on their own back when they were in control of China. And Hong Kong and Singapore, far from being turned into hellholes by colonialism, are among the most prosperous and economically free places on the planet because the British set up much better systems in both places than the Chinese could design on their own at the time.

    My argument is that purely SOCIALISTIC forms of foreign aid can’t work. Any aid has to be tied to reciprocal obligations on the recipient’s end. I’ll use American welfare as an example. Pre-Clinton, American welfare was just throwing money at problems, but requiring nothing in return. A welfare mother could keep getting welfare for each kid she had without limit, no obligations to look for work or get a job, no efforts to cure social pathologies, no requirements to get job training or anything. Money just thrown at her to use as she saw fit. Post-Clinton reforms, welfare began making requirements of the recipients and aimed at fixing their pathologies: after a certain amount of kids, you stopped getting welfare. You had a time table to get a job, You had to attend job training courses and provide proof you were looking for work and going on interviews. Welfare rolls dropped in half simply by using incentives, requiring reciprocal behavior and understanding human nature. Resounding success. Do you think that legislation would ever have made it into reality that year if the people pushing it were using the lower average IQ of blacks as a basis?

    Foreign aid to Africa is the same way, it is thrown into countries with corrupt governments and no good infrastructure with no reciprocal requirements expected, no change in governmental structure, nothing. Funds get misappropriated or “lost,” pure inefficiency. Purely socialistic. Taiwan’s foreign aid were much less socialistic and was not just a money toss, it had specific benchmarks, , it was money given in expectation of certain reciprocal measures by the Taiwanese, such as sweeping land reform and opposition to communism and had constant monitoring of progress by the United States. Aid was specifically allocated toward Infrastructure, Human Resources, Development, Agriculture and Industry.

    It’s not fair to solely blame IQ differentials for why aid worked in Taiwan and not Africa, as the forms of aid were structured totally differenly. Even in countries populated by high IQ races, just throwing money at problems without accountability historically just leads to inefficiency, corruption, waste and poverty.

    You doon’t need to use IQ arguments to explain the failures in African aid or to argue for changes in it. There is nothing in the failures of African aid versus other types of aid that can’t be explained in a free-market economics textbooks.

    Again, you underestimate the importance of the prediction and measurement problem. These changes cannot happen as long as political correctness forces bureaucrats to assume all races have essentially identical aptitude distributions.

    And you underestimate the dedication of socialists to redistributive solutions. Force bureaucrats to accept that different races lead to different aptitudes and they will just stick to their Marxist strategies except now they’ll just make their redistributions permanent and deeper with no end in sight because now the inequality will be judged to be one that may never be corrected.

    I feel like the social ineptness many high IQ people face in interpersonal social relationships on a micro level is mirrored on a macro level with the political unsavviness of their race and IQ arguments and their beliefs that they are politically viable and capable of producing productive discourse. Ask Sailer how influential his race realism arguments are at entering public discourse and influencing anti-PC policies in comparison to Thomas Sowell’s economic based arguments favoring similar policy solutions. The race realist IQ-obsessed approach won’t get you seriously considered past a core group of high IQ, frustrated, angry middle class white and asian males.

    Anyway, you can have the last word. I think I’ve made my points and I don’t want to dedicate any more time in my life to race realism arguments. I do think race realism does raise some good points and is good at bringing some non-PC truths to light, but I do think it’s delusional to believe it can remotely be a pragmatic starting point for any real political change.

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  327. But I suspect that what you’re arguing against isn’t the fact — I mean, there the fact is, or seems to be. It’s instead the way some people dwell on it, and circle back to it over and over, as though doing so is going to yield something important or worthwhile. And I think you’re arguing that dragging IQ questions into public debate isn’t necessary and will likely to be counterproductive. I’m with you on all that.

    You’re right, I’m not arguing to suppress the fact. I’m not like DA in believing that this ugly truth should be avoided at all costs. If people want to discuss it civilly, and the reasons for it, that’s great. It’s this often bitter obsessiveness with it, and the need to drag it into every conversation and pretend that its being done because its the only way to fight political correctness and save America that is starting to annoy me. No matter what the topic here lately someone can steer it to this same tired topic over and over. I feel like much the way many blacks feel bitter and think the world owes them something for being black and having suffered through slavery and won’t let it go, these guys feel bitter and think the world owes them for having an IQ and having to suffer through affirmative action.

    Anyway, apologies to Roissy for putting such long comments in this section and contributing to the hijacking of this comments section. I’m going to stop responding to the race realist arguments for a while after this comment because it just helps to fuel them. I think I’ve pretty much covered everything I need to say.

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  328. T, we’re talking past each other. At the end of my previous comment, I said that I don’t think forcing the world to fully accept IQ differentials is the right approach. We’re in agreement there. Instead, it is something we should constantly be aware of when crafting policy, but (at least in the current political climate) we don’t fully disclose our reasoning when selling it. (I entirely agree with you with using Sowell-style arguments instead, and I think I’d also agree with most of the policies you’d propose! I want to see something as close to a meritocracy as possible, without racial preferences one way or the other.)

    The problem today is that any rational policy crafted and sold in this manner runs into illogical but nevertheless successful objections from those who insist racial outcomes must converge. Since no remotely efficient policy can achieve this convergence today, we’re stuck with ridiculously inefficient, and often destructive, policies instead. If the US wants to remain a superpower, it needs to stop entertaining such objections.

    By the way, there IS a limit to Marxism. It’s imposed by competition from other countries. Any country which goes too far in redistributing from the capable to the incapable forfeits huge amounts of power to those which don’t. Then a guy like Reagan comes along and uses this power to bring the smackdown on the Marxists. If the US goes insane, I suspect it’ll only be a matter of time before a foreign Reagan figure appears (perhaps Chinese).

    Finally, while Taiwan’s success by itself does not say too much because of its unique circumstances, the fact that all other East Asian countries except North Korea have also made major progress (and we know exactly what North Korea’s problem is), and NOT A SINGLE AFRICAN COUNTRY has even started on the same path, is a lot more telling. (For what it’s worth, I think this has a lot to do with personality traits, not just IQ. I remember reading that the population of East Asians in the US has an average IQ of just 103 or so, not really distinguishable from whites… but their educational achievement is as if their average IQ was 121.) This may be the only point on which we genuinely disagree — I don’t think the policies that helped Taiwan and the other East Asian “tigers” develop are enough to get the job done in any African country, though they are a good starting point.

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  329. 324 Michael Blowhard

    Here’s one way of spinning it: All population groups are bundles of (relative) talents and (relative) deficits. The Bushmen have certain qualities, the Scotch-Irish another (overlapping) set of talents and deficits, Peruvian Indians yet another … As people they’re all of equal worth. As population groups they have somewhat different flavors and textures. Overfocusing on IQ is ludicrous, because even if it’s real it’s one small arrow in a large quiver of attributes, all of which demand and deserve attention and acknowledgment.

    The problem is that, in today’s high-tech world, population IQ is so much more relevant to economic and military power than all the other attributes you mention. Low IQ groups have much less ultimate control of their destinies than high IQ groups.

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  330. Chris — It’s you who’s choosing to put a certain set of values (“in today’s high-tech world …” etc) above all others. That’s what leads you to rank IQ as a more important factor than all others. (incidentally, even in a cognitive-horsepower-based economy, attributes like “diligence,” “patience,” ambition,” “humor,” etc, are important. As many have pointed out, high IQ on its own can just mean “effective and clever crook.”) What if I don’t really care about the value-set implied by “today’s high-tech world” as much as you do? IQ suddenly falls ‘way down the list.

    Incidentally, I can come up with plenty of reasons to object to current immigration policies where Mexico is concerned without falling back on IQ arguments. Too many damn people … Taking a crazy risk upsetting ethnic balance … It’s more than enough for me.

    Hey, one reason to object to current policies is that it’s an insult to the U.S.’s historical black population.

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  331. Too many damn people … Taking a crazy risk upsetting ethnic balance

    I’m 100% with Michael here.

    I’ll add that while IQ is an important factor, obsessing too much over it is a mark of nerdhood.

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  332. Some great comments by Michael Blowhard here.

    MQ brought up a point a short while ago contrasting the Romans with the northern barbarians as proof that my argument is unfounded. What he’s (she?) missing is that once the barbarians were exposed to the remnants of classical civilization and the Christian religion through the missionary work of the Catholic Church, they took them and developed the most advanced civilization (the West) in history.

    Right. Northern European barbarians began to be exposed to classical culture around the first century BC. The Roman Empire crumbled and the various “barbarian” tribes took over the remnants during the 5th century AD. Historians generally date the full emergence from the dark ages and the beginning of the rise of real high European civilization to the 12th century AD (e.g. this is when the first Gothic cathedrals are constructed in France). So — SEVEN HUNDRED YEARS after Northern Europeans took over Europe and ONE THOUSAND YEARS after their first exposure to classical civilization they finally moved into the forefront of world civilization. I think most people would agree that They really didn’t surpass classical achievements until the 15th century AD.

    Now, sub-Saharan Africans were first really exposed to European civilization in the 17th century, and were first freed from oppression and given control over their own destinies in the 20th century. You may notice that it has been a lot less than 700 years since the 20th century.

    Thomas Sowell has pointed out that cultural differences are very long-lasting and historically have taken longer to overcome than genetic ones. Genetics can be overcome through culture or technology and is all the time, but culture must change from within.

    And actually, as M. Blowhard points out above, the cultural achievements of people of sub-Saharan African descent have actually been very impressive for a group emerging so recently from cultural isolation and oppression. They’ve already revolutionized a major art form (music), completely altering previous musical forms and creating a great, sophisticated new tradition. They’ve produced individual great artists in a number of fields, and a couple of great world leaders and achievers.

    For you to be correct, among many other things you would have to be able to explain why the African peoples of (former) Rhodesia and South Africa have thus far utterly failed to maintain the First World status of those countries following the end of white rule.

    Here I imagine a Roman in, say, 530 AD, 50 years after the abdication of the last Western Roman emperor, going on about how the Franks and the Visigoths have utterly failed to maintain the beautiful Roman villas and roads.

    Differences between cultures and groups are very real, racism is a vicious form of stupidity. Learn to tell the difference.

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  333. racism is a vicious form of stupidity

    Define “racism.”
    Explain why it’s “vicious” or a “form of stupidity.”

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  334. I will repeat what I wrote over at Michael Blowhard’s blog a while ago:

    [I]ntelligence is so economically valuable and is correlated with so many undeniably good outcomes that I can see why many groups don’t want to be seen as having less of it. Deprecating such a valuable trait fools no one. Furthermore, praising, say, black folks for being sociable, charismatic and musically talented (which they are) is rightly perceived as rather condescending. It elides over the fact that, say, the mostly white U.S. is a reasonably functioning society and the mostly black Zimbabwe is a hell hole. You are right to emphasize caution in ranking civilizations, but beyond a certain point the advantages of one culture just become too obvious to deny. We can talk about valuing different things all we want, but not many people would choose to actually live in Zimbabwe. Don’t get me wrong, intelligence is far from everything, and its lack should never be allowed to deny someone their full humanity, but its high degree of desirability is hard to deny.

    The rest of the thread is here:
    http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2007/11/watson_populati.html
    The comments of Godless Capitalist (gc) are particularly worth reading

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  335. BTW higher IQ is associated with more than just generating economic value. It is also associated with higher levels of co-operation and altruism.

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  336. 330 Michael Blowhard

    Chris — It’s you who’s choosing to put a certain set of values (”in today’s high-tech world …” etc) above all others. That’s what leads you to rank IQ as a more important factor than all others. (incidentally, even in a cognitive-horsepower-based economy, attributes like “diligence,” “patience,” ambition,” “humor,” etc, are important. As many have pointed out, high IQ on its own can just mean “effective and clever crook.”) What if I don’t really care about the value-set implied by “today’s high-tech world” as much as you do? IQ suddenly falls ‘way down the list.

    As Trotsky supposedly said, “You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.” Countries that do not care about the “value-set implied by today’s high-tech world” are incapable of defending themselves. China is now invading a significant fraction of Africa. While it is a mostly “peaceful” invasion, with no tanks involved (though victims of the harsher regimes being propped up by China may disagree), the lack of true sovereignty of these countries is plain for all to see. They can do whatever they want… as long as they ship most of their natural resources to China. If one ruler tries to end the arrangement, well, I wouldn’t bet on that guy remaining ruler for very long. The countries China cannot control in this fashion are only that way because other powers established a presence there first.

    (The really sad thing is that this treatment actually isn’t so bad compared with what other powers have done in Africa.)

    The other attributes you mention cannot extricate Africans from this. IQ (plus conscientiousness and perhaps a few other critical personality traits) is absolutely necessary, if they are to stand up for themselves instead of relying on us to intervene.

    332 MQ

    Now, sub-Saharan Africans were first really exposed to European civilization in the 17th century, and were first freed from oppression and given control over their own destinies in the 20th century. You may notice that it has been a lot less than 700 years since the 20th century.

    Brad DeLong has pointed out that 700-1500 years is enough for the relevant genetic differences to disappear, given historic levels of selection and admixture. (I’m not a big fan of referencing arrogant pricks who regularly delete blog comments stating arguments they don’t like, but I still give credit where it is due.) But can we wait even half that long? China is invading now.

    Thomas Sowell has pointed out that cultural differences are very long-lasting and historically have taken longer to overcome than genetic ones. Genetics can be overcome through culture or technology and is all the time, but culture must change from within.

    There is an interplay between culture and genetics. Historically, culture influences genetics over the long term by changing what traits are selected for, while genetics makes certain types of culture more likely than others. Even though I was born and raised entirely in the US, and my parents made a point of not saddling me with much Chinese culture, I would be far more at home in authoritarian but rational Singapore than most Americans, because I can easily see that its leaders think much like I do (though they’re a bit naive at times, heh).

    The good news is, once genetics is addressed, culture should fairly quickly shift on its own. (Though we still need to influence what it shifts to — I don’t have any more use for “effective and clever crooks” than Michael Blowhard does.) Whereas the other way around takes many centuries.

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  337. MQ 232 –

    It seems the thread has taken on new life. Obviously, I disagree with you here. But what is it you’re suggesting? That we continue on the same trajectory and wait around for another couple hundred years for the equality you believe in to materialize? Besides, in my post 294 I referenced other, scientific, evidence for vast, intractable race differences in civilizational capabilities. Evidence not just from history but anatomy, histology, physical anthropology, kinesthetics, electrophysiology, genetics and physcology. Do some reading.

    I also find all the criticisms of wanting to discuss this subject, or treat it as important, annoying. As I said in my first post here, every gap, every difference in outcome between whites and non-whites, (IQ, education, wealth and income, prison population, mortgage defaults, home ownership, and on and on and on) is blamed on some form of white racism. The left is obssessed with racism because it explains the whole world to them since the world is filled with inequality. And it’s the left that’s ruled Western society for 40 years, they have the power. Those who want to talk about race differences are not picking an unnecessary fight, they are fighting back.

    Race is not going anywhere, it is part of humanity. We might as well be truthful about it.

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  338. Hey, Chris and Mu’Min are blogging, check it out, good to see.

    Chris, I don’t disagree with a lot of your facts, and don’t know how I could. That said, I don’t know how you imagine all this could be explicitly addressed in the political sphere. Two reasons.

    One is that any politician who started to bring these things up would have his career ended immediately — thus, end of that attempted discussion.

    Second, the political process is a constant, ongoing, ever-morphing thing. You may assert that IQ is objectively, absolutely important … But meanwhile I’ll be doing my best to steer the conversation back to (I dunno) conserving rare species of animals. You can carry on all you want about IQ, but I get to carry on all I can about the crucial, objective, absolute importance of beetles and dugongs. It’s all negotiation, spin, arm-twisting, and deal-making. How you expect to keep things focused on a topic that most people are uneasy even talking about (let alone debating, let alone passing laws explicitly based on) except in private mystifies me, especially when many of these issues can be usefully talked about and addressed in ways that people are less queasy about. Agreed that there are critical issues that need addressing — so why torpedo your chances in advance of prevailing by dragging in topics and angles no one wants to face, at least publicly?

    Highlight of my day: learning that MQ has read (and respects) Thomas Sowell!

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  339. 338 Michael Blowhard

    That said, I don’t know how you imagine all this could be explicitly addressed in the political sphere.

    As I mentioned in post #328, I believe in privately paying full attention to race realism when crafting policy (since otherwise you are more likely to get policies that can’t work), but publicly emphasizing other things to sell said policies.

    I also have a pipe dream of doing my part to persuade China itself to “uplift” Africans in the far future. This may actually be more likely than the US leading such an effort, because I’m pretty sure that racial differences, far from being an anathema topic, are actually taken for granted there (probably too much so, but nevertheless I’m sure their perception is more accurate than ours right now). But I don’t want to place all my bets on China. Heck, they’re still letting North Korea be a hellhole, so they have a very, very long way to go before they might consider a larger-than-Marshall-Plan scale benevolent intervention in Africa.

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  340. A great line of reasoning that could be used to support every solution Chris talks about without touching the issue of averae IQ by race once. Also, it goes against the belief that race’s and their average IQ makes high scholastic results from them an unrealistic expection:

    http://www.tsowell.com/speducat.html

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  341. 334 Thursday:

    The comments of Godless Capitalist (gc) are particularly worth reading

    Wow. I must say, that Godless Capitalist guy is one bad motherfucker.

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  342. GC rocks, and rocks hard.

    That’s a great Thomas Sowell link, T., thanks.

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  343. 296 Seeking Alpha:

    @ 295 – A little long, but I agree with the point: no practical policy prescriptions can come from it, so what’s the point in discussing it so much.

    Will Wilkinson, is that you??

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  344. 324 Peter:

    it’s an appetizing and appealing cornucopia of tastes, colors, textures. Why not enjoy?

    Oh wait, that was Micheal Blowhard. My bad.

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  345. I’m not like DA in believing that this ugly truth should be avoided at all costs.

    I’m not inclined to trust the kindness of strangers, so I’m absolutely paranoid about race realism becoming public and turning the public into a fertile recruiting base for white nationalism. As an native-born citizen, I would prefer to stay in my country, and not leave because I was chased out by hatred.

    Too many damn people … Taking a crazy risk upsetting ethnic balance

    I’m 100% with Michael here.

    Fun Question: what’s the proper ethnic balance for the United States?

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  346. Can anyone supply me with links to this Godless Capitalist guy? Who is he?

    And TC, what’s the Will Wilkinson comment about? I don’t get it.

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  347. T,
    i agree with thursday about iq being a necessary (but not sufficient) factor for most well governed societies, high GDP societies (potential exceptions only thus far occurring in places like saudi arabia and botswana due to natural resources or small countries like trinidad due to tourism).

    however, i think you are right about race realists discussing iq way too much and the cultural factors that can often trump iq for many important areas of civilized life. the main benefit i saw to discussing iq differences before was for certain social policy implications. however, i think i get your point that there are better ways of accomplishing the same goals (sowell vs sailer line of thinking). the only other reason to discuss this stuff would be for genetic engineering implications, but i think vim makes an excellent point that the potential intra- racial iq genetic differences can probably be studied in lieu of any potential inter-racial differences. this will also likely be less contentious and more politically expedient. besides, i also agree with greg cochrane on gnxp that even obama can’t stop genetic research at this point.

    i 100% disagree with your statements about voluntary eugenics not being a worthy solution to a lot of our problems and would invite you to expound on this extremely important matter if and when you have the time to do a post on it. as i’ve stated, it’s going to be a lot easier to ameliorate the human condition via voluntary genetic engineering than to modulate culture to the degree that you or i would like to see it affected.

    i nominate your comment at 161 for comment of the year on this blog. you are 100% right about what white people do wrong.

    gc was/is a baddass debater and is now in semi- retirement on the net. his favorite method was to data flood the opposition but that belies his polemic mastery. it’s a lot harder for me to get access to his old writings on gnxp b/c they’ve changed servers over the years and made data retrieval more difficult. this is a great example of a gc type post that is still available:
    http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:ukJNjQk0oDMJ:www.gnxp.com/oldblog/nopub/85379116+gene+expression+poverty+and+crime&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

    does anyone know a good way to search gnxp nowadays to get access to gc’s old posts? btw, jason malloy has outstanding posts on gnxp, but he was not as prolific as godless.

    finally, i think gc came to the same conclusion as you did about the online discussion about hbd being less relevant and that was likely part of the reason he semi-retired.

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  348. 340 T

    Yes, I remember reading that Sowell article before. While it may be unrealistic to replicate the success of that school everywhere (it seems like a disproportionate fraction of the best black teachers were concentrated there), that case does demonstrate that truly good teaching DOES have an impact, and we should try to have more of it.

    346 T

    Can anyone supply me with links to this Godless Capitalist guy? Who is he?

    He was one of the original bloggers at Gene Expression. He’s more articulate than I am and has also spent a helluva lot more time thinking about and discussing this subject with others, so feel free to listen to him instead of me. 🙂

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  349. another thing:
    godless capitalist is an american of hindu indian descent. he scored a perfect 1600 on the pre-centered sat. he used to post a lot on various issues on gnxp, but was extremely interested in human biodiversity. he started as a blog child of steve sailer, like razib, before combining to start gnxp. he is a scientific researcher by trade.

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  350. Fittingly enough, Sowell weighed in on the very topic of high IQ today:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/11/intellectuals.html

    My favorite part:

    <blockquoteHistory fully vindicates the late William F. Buckley’s view that he would rather be ruled by people represented by the first 100 names in the Boston phone book than by the faculty of Harvard.

    How have intellectuals managed to be so wrong, so often? By thinking that because they are knowledgeable– or even expert– within some narrow band out of the vast spectrum of human concerns, that makes them wise guides to the masses and to the rulers of the nation.

    But the ignorance of Ph.D.s is still ignorance and high-IQ groupthink is still groupthink, which is the antithesis of real thinking.

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  351. Fittingly enough, Sowell weighed in on the very topic of high IQ today:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/11/intellectuals.html

    My favorite part:

    History fully vindicates the late William F. Buckley’s view that he would rather be ruled by people represented by the first 100 names in the Boston phone book than by the faculty of Harvard.

    How have intellectuals managed to be so wrong, so often? By thinking that because they are knowledgeable– or even expert– within some narrow band out of the vast spectrum of human concerns, that makes them wise guides to the masses and to the rulers of the nation.

    But the ignorance of Ph.D.s is still ignorance and high-IQ groupthink is still groupthink, which is the antithesis of real thinking.

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  352. I’ve loved Sowell for years, however much his Iraq stance annoyed me. John Derbyshire believes that only people of average intelligence should vote because if only high IQ people voted in the 30s we’d be Soviet States of America.

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  353. Yea but Sowell is talking about ‘intellectuals’, not high IQ. I’d define an intellectual not just by their IQ but by their profession. Academics spend their life opining often but risking nothing. There are plenty of other professions with high IQ people whose practitioners would be fit to vote or rule like doctors, financiers, lawyers or businessmen.

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  354. @ 354: Well, he explicitly mentions high-IQ people too, but I do see your overall point.

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  355. Oh, by the way SA, I think lawyers are HORRIBLE for rule, and that a major source of our political problems today stem from the fact that we have too many lawyers in politics. Two big reasons (although there are more): first, law is a profession steeped in principles of wealth redistribution engineered by a handful of people. The very profession is all about a handful of people, including a judge, a jury, and two opposing lawyers, trying to figure out how to make people whole by taking something from one person and giving it to another. Now some lawyers have management experience or owned practices or were partners or are well steeped in economics, so these type of lawyers may understand market forces, running businesses and simple economics, but for most lawyers a bulk of their real-world experience has to do with taking from Tom to make Dick and Harry whole. That is why law is such an overwhelmingly liberal field.

    Second, lawyers are worse than liars, they’re bullshitters. To knowingly lie, you have to know the truth. You can’t intentionally tell something untrue without knowing what’s true to begin with. So in many ways, a habitual liar has some intellectual curiosity since he has to learn the truth in order to lie about it. Someone who lies on highly complex topics must have a dedication to learning about these highly complex topics. This is why I have a certain amount of intellectual respect even for liars. Lawyers on the other hand are bullshitters, and bullshitters don’t care about the truth or falsity of a statement, just about whether or not they can make it sound plausible. They start with a premise, like “X is not guilty of murder,” then try to manipulate existing knowledge to fit that premise by any means legally and ethically acceptable in order to make the premise sound plausible. Whether X is truly guilty of murder or not is irrelevant, the point is to make the premise sounds plausible, not prove it to objectively true or false. If his job became to prove X was guilty, he would take the exact same facts and start looking at a way to manipulate them into saying the opposite now.

    This is the essence of a bullshitter, to sound knowledgable about things he may or may not have much experience in or knowledge about and plausibly sell arguments regardless of whether or not he knows the truth behind those statements. Being rules by people who have little experience with market forces, whose jobs revolve around gaining justice primarily through redistribution and who routinely argue things as fact without knowing or even caring about the truth of their statements is a horrible tradition, and perfect proof of the idea that high IQ does not necessarily mean fit to rule.

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  356. “2010 will be a repeat of 1994.”

    Nostroissydamus.

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  357. […] years ago, on the eve of the 2008 election of Obama, I predicted this: 2010 will be a repeat of […]

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