Dating Market Value For Men

Dating market value test for women is here

Here is a system for determining your dating market value if you are a man.  Dating market value is a measurement of how you stack up against other men in the competition for attracting female interest.  Be honest with yourself taking this survey.  It will give you a fairly accurate assessment of the quality and number of women you are capable of attracting for a sexual relationship.  Girls, you may take this quiz for your boyfriends to see if you are slumming it or about to be cheated on.

1.  How old are you?

under 25 years old:  0 points
26-34 years old:  +1 point
35-45 years old:  0 points
45+ years old:  -1 point

2.  How tall are you?

under 5’9″:  -1 point
5’9″ to 5’11”:  0 points
6′ to 6’4″:  +1 point
over 6’4″:  0 points

3.  What is your BMI?

(Go here to calculate your BMI.  I know BMI doesn’t account for very muscular physiques, but since most men are not Lee Haney, it is adequate for this survey’s purposes.)

under 20.0:  -1 point
20.0 to 24.0:  +1 point
24.1 to 27.0:  0 points
over 27.0:  -1 point

4.  How much do you bench press?

60% or less of your body weight:  -1 point
61% to 80% of your body weight:  0 points
81% to 170% of your body weight:  +1 point
over 170% of your body weight:  0 points

5.  What does your hairline look like?

Full head of hair if you are over 35:  +1 point
Full head of hair if you are under 35:  0 points
Receding hairline if you are over 35:  0 points
Receding hairline if you are under 35:  -1 point
Bald (age irrelevant):  -1 point
Bald but you are dark-skinned:  0 points

6.  How much money do you make?

under $40K and you are out of college:  -1 point
$40K to $70K out of college and under 40 years old:  0 points
over $70K out of college and under 40 years old:  +1 point
under $40K and you are college age or younger:  0 points
$40K to $55K and over 40 years old:  -1 point
$55K to $90K and over 40 years old:  0 points
over $90K and 40 to 55 years old:  +1 point
over $200K (age irrelevant):  +1 point

7.  Do you have a car?

No (under 21yo):  0 points
No (over 21yo):  -1 point
Yes (under 21yo):  +1 point
Yes (over 21yo):  0 points
No, but you have a motorcycle (age irrelevant):  +1 point

8.  Are you good-looking?

(Self-assessment is somewhat unreliable, so if you are uncertain of your looks post your pic on hotornot and wait a week for your score.  Or get opinions from unbiased and blunt friends.  Hashing out the biometric details of what makes a male face attractive would require another lengthy post, so for now these two methods are acceptable substitutes.)

On a 1 – 10 scale:

0 – 4:  -1 point
5 – 7:  0 points
8 – 10:  +1 point

9.  Have you ever played a leading role in a team sport?

No:  0 points
Yes:  +1 point

10.  What is your occupation?

(Since I won’t list every single high status job in the Department of Labor’s Occupational Handbook, you’ll have to make a judgment call on your own job.  It’s a safe assumption that most people know a high status job when they see it.)

High status (doctor, lawyer, stockbroker, executive, professor, business owner, successful artist or musician or writer, professional athlete, etc.):  +1 point
Neutral status (engineer, programmer, accountant, salesman, mid level manager, scientist, military officer, well-paid tradesman, etc.):  0 points
Low status (low paid blue collar, admin, construction, janitor, struggling web designer, help desk, etc.):  -1 point

11.  How many friends do you have?

0 to 3:  -1 point
4 to 20:  0 points
over 20:  +1 point

12.  How many friends have you met through the internet that you have never seen in person?

0 to 2:  0 points
over 2:  -1 point

13.  When was the last time you went to a house party?

Within the past month:  +1 point
Between one month and one year ago:  0 points
Over one year ago:  -1 point

14.  Have people besides your family called you funny?

None:  -1 point
A few have:  0 points
Nearly everyone who knows me:  +1 point

15.  What is your IQ?

Under 85:  -1 point
85 to 110:  0 points
110 to 130:  +1 point
130 to 145:  0 points
over 145:  -1 point

16.  At a party, which happens first – you approach someone or someone approaches you?

I approach someone first almost every time:  +1 point
I occasionally approach first:  0 points
Someone normally approaches me first:  -1 point

17.  Have you ever been in a serious fight where real punches were thrown and you felt like you wanted to kill your opponent(s)?

No:  0 points
Yes:  +1 point
Yes, with a girl:  -1 point

18.  Have you ever been arrested?

No:  0 points
Yes:  +1 point
Yes, for child pornography or public exposure:  -1 point

****

It’s best to answer the following four questions based on your past experience with similar scenarios.  Who we really are is not what we wish we were but what we have always been.

19.  You are on a second date with a girl.  You go to kiss her.  She turns her cheek to you and says “Slow down, I’m not that kind of girl.”  You reply:

(A) “Sorry.”
(B) “Yeah, well, no prob.”
(C) “This could be trouble ’cause I’m that kind of guy.” *smirk*

If you answered (A), subtract a point.
If (B), no points.
If (C), add a point.

20.  You’re chatting up a pretty girl you just met in a bar.  After a few minutes she asks you to buy her a drink.  You reply:

(A) “Sure.”
(B) “I’m not an ATM.”
(C) “No, but you can buy me one.”

If you answered (A), subtract a point.
If (B), no points.
If (C), add a point.

21.  You’ve just met a cute girl in a club and have been talking with her for five minutes when she abruptly changes the topic to a raunchy conversation about her multiorgasmic ability.  You respond with:

(A) a huge grin and an eager “Damn! That is HOT!”
(B) a look of mild disdain.
(C) a raised eyebrow while saying “Hey, thanks for the medical report.”

If you answered (A), subtract a point.
If (B), no points.
If (C), add a point.

22.  The pickup has been going well.  Later in the night she leans in and begins making out with you passionately.  You feel like a king and your jeans suddenly feel much tighter.  Do you:

(A) immediately grope her boob in return.
(B) continue making out with her for as long as she wishes.
(C) kiss for a little bit then push her gently away and look distracted for a second.

If you answered (A), subtract a point.
If (B), no points.
If (C), add a point.

And finally, the critical thinking portion of the quiz.  The following questions are based on the progression of a single pickup attempt.

23.  You go to a bar.  Twenty feet away are a pretty girl, a fat girl, and an average guy talking amongst themselves.  The pretty girl briefly eye flirts with you.  In reponse, you:

(A) eye flirt back and forth a few times before approaching 20 minutes later.
(B) immediately approach in a direct fashion maintaining strong eye contact with your target.
(C) immediately approach but from an indirect angle, looking around the room distractedly on the way over to your target as if you might see an even prettier girl somewhere else, and finally delivering your opener from over your shoulder.

(A):  -1 point
(B):  0 points
(C):  +1 point

24.  Who do you address first?

(A) the pretty girl.
(B) the fat girl.
(C) everyone.

(A):  -1 point
(B):  0 points
(C):  +1 point 

25.  After getting the whole group engaged in conversation and having a good time, your target blurts out “Hey nice pink shirt! Are you gay?”  You:

(A) say “No, I’m not gay!”
(B) ignore her.
(C) say “OK, who brought their little sister to the bar!”

(A):  -1 point
(B):  0 points
(C):  +1 point

26.  In the middle of the conversation you have to pee.  You say:

(A) “I have to go to the bathroom. I’ll be right back.”
(B) “Excuse me.”
(C) nothing.  Just go.

(A):  -1 point
(B):  0 points
(C):  +1 point 

27.  You’ve managed to get her outside your front door.  There is obvious sexual tension.  You want to close this deal.  You say:

(A) “So, um, ah, see you around.”
(B) “Why don’t you come inside?”
(C) “I’m thirsty.  Are you thirsty?  Let’s go inside and taste DC’s finest tap water.  But you can only stay for a minute, I have to get up early.”

(A):  -1 point
(B):  0 points
(C):  +1 point

****

SCORES

There are 26 points to earn or lose based on the questions asked.  The scoring breaks down as follows:

-26:  Why are you still alive?
-25 to -20:  You’re an omega.  Celibacy has its charms.
-19 to -15:  You actively repulse girls.  Your kind will usher forth the sexbot revolution.
-14 to -10:  You’re always getted foisted onto the warpigs.
-9 to 0:  Lesser beta.  You don’t immediately disgust girls; they just don’t notice you.  With much painful effort you can redeem yourself.
1 to 9:  Classic beta.  You catch some girls’ eyes, usually the ones you don’t want.  Try not to make fatty fucking a lifestyle.
10 to 14:  A few attractive girls in the bar will be intrigued by your presence.  But you need game to close the deal.
15 to 19:  Congrats, you have crossed the alpha Rubicon.  A lot of cute girls will be pleased when you hit on them.  But you can still fuck up by being yourself.
20 to 25:  You’re a natural.  Many hot girls check you out and forgive your occasional pickup blunders.  You always have a look of sexual satisfaction on your face.
26:  Super Alpha.  Booty sticks to you like bird shit on car roofs.

Next:  The Dating Market Value test for the ladies!





Comments


  1. […] Check it out! While looking through the blogosphere we stumbled on an interesting post today.Here’s a quick excerptHere is a system for determining your dating market value if you are a man. Dating market value is a measurement of how you stack up against other men in the competition for attracting female interest. Be honest with yourself taking … […]

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  2. 4. How much do you bench press?

    81% to 170% of your body weight: +1 point

    ????
    That makes little sense, as it’s a huge range.

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  3. Why zero points for standing over 6’4″?

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  4. peter – 170% of a typical 175 lb guy is about a 300 bench press. anything more than that and some girls will be turned off by the vanity on display in an overmuscled roid appearance. that is why it shifts to 0 points beyond a certain threshold of muscle gain.

    steve – studies have shown that extremely tall men have fewer sexual partners than their slightly less taller competition. it has to do with going too far to the extremes in a world where most women are under 6 feet tall. the women seem to find extreme tallness goofy and/or intimidating. you want to hit the sweet spot.

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  5. I’m a natural according to this, but my newness to the area and lack of a group of friends is killing me. A pre-existing social circle should be weighted more heavily.

    Off topic, you should do a Q and A post. I have several Qs.

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  6. I need to start coming to these happy hours.

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  7. What about guys that completely shave their heads? Is that as bad as being bald?

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  8. What about guys that completely shave their heads? Is that as bad as being bald?

    According to an academic study of online personals ads, recounted in the book Freakonomics, partial baldness reduces a man’s appeal but a completely shaven head does not.

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  9. on October 19, 2007 at 7:18 pm instantExcitement

    Good stuff…But I personally find it more important in game to have a lot of people know you rather than be friends with a lot of them. While I only consider 10-15 of the people I know as friends, meaning I completely trust them, and can count on them at any circumstance, I have 50+ people I hang out with/drink with/party with/play sports with. And even if you have no friends, you can still have a lot of game, but I do agree that having people around you raises your AMOG standing.

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  10. damnit
    im working my way out of betaness
    its hard work though.

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  11. yeah, spaceman…it’s a long, hard road out of hell.

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  12. on October 19, 2007 at 8:58 pm mr. pilkington

    What is very interesting in reading the comments is that it looks like guys are reading the survey and conducting self assessments and realizing where they come up short. Hopefully to begin the next step to logically create a course of action to address their deficiencies. I fear this won’t be the case when Roissy presents the market value test for the ladies. Looking forward to the litany of posts spouting either their exceptionalism or challenging the veracity of Roissy’s survey.

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  13. Well said, Pilkington.

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  14. This test is too complex.

    A simple version would give points based on:

    Height
    BMI
    Attractiveness
    Intelligence
    Income
    Race

    http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/13/single-female-seeking-same-race-male/

    Confidence and “alpha” behavior is oftentimes a function of the 6 factors mentioned above.

    For women, the same factors would apply but with different weight given to them (e.g., less emphasis on height and more on BMI). Also, income would be replaced by “sex appeal”. A lot of 5s can become 7s just by giving off the impression that they enjoy sex.

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  15. In fact, I would accord the following weight to these factors:

    Height (.50)
    BMI (.10)
    Attractiveness (.20)
    Intelligence/Personality/Humor (.10)
    Income (.05)
    Race (.05)

    For each factor, you would rate a person on a score of 1 to 10 and then multiply it by the relative weight. When you add up the scores for each factor, you’ll get a final score, with the highest being 10.

    For women, it’d be:

    BMI (.50)
    Attractiveness (.20)
    Height (.05)
    Intelligence/Personality/Humor (.10)
    Race (.05)
    Sex appeal (.10)

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  16. Taking this test can really depress you. So as someone who scores just under zero, what to do? And what is this “painful” process you talk about? Come on, us betas are scratching and clawing here, I could get to be an upper “classic beta” with a little work. We need tips.

    But I have a couple issues with the test. Why is high IQ a detriment? You need an IQ over 130 or even 140 to do many of the high status jobs you list. Hell, many NFL quarterbacks have IQ’s at 130 or so. I do understand that some guys with very high IQ’s are introverted and geeky, but these negatives would come out elsewhere in the test. And getting arrested is a plus? Not for dating educated girls, I would think. (And I say this actually having been arrested before – 3 times.) Some of these things, like height, need to be given more weight than they are. Oh, and who has more than 20 friends??

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  17. DA : -12? Enjoy the warpigs. Seriously though you have some hope now. I have to work on boosting my -3 over zero now.

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  18. 12

    Screw your IQ thing. At least it’s not scaled, otherwise I’d really be in trouble. I often find myself thinking how wonderful it would be to be stupid.

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  19. For the shits and giggles factor, wtf is a “warpig”?

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  20. BTW, seriously, I really don’t repulse girls as judged by the fact that at work and school, they feel comfortable enough to approach and speak with me. I’m just too boring and nerdy and uninteresting and unaccomplished and underemployed and boring to attract a woman. I mean, I could work on becoming like an “alpha” like Roissy, but it’s just not me, I wouldn’t feel comfortable doing it, and it’s just much easier to use porn as the alternative.

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  21. Seriously though, if you’re a beta scoring near zero on this test, not repulsive but far from alpha, should you

    (A) Spend your early 30’s working your ass off to get more money and status, but without that much time to party

    or

    (B) Concentrate more on finding a decent but low-stress job, with more time to party, run game on bitches and work out

    or

    (C) Give up and be satisfied with whistling at hot college chicks you have no shot with

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  22. This test biases value upwards because every single reader automatically knows the “correct” answers to all the scenario questions. (if anything because you’ve marked them with the scoring) But how people would actually react in those situations is a mystery even to them.

    Further Tyler Cowen has already dealt with why a ‘hard to get’ strategy is, at the very least, hard to pull off correctly from an economic standpoint, and probably flawed entirely:

    http://www.timharford.com/writing/2007/03/dating-advice-for-tyler-cowen.html

    (working only when attraction has already been suitably generated – the entire problem that needs to be solved to begin with)

    I don’t think multiple choice captures reality either. Almost all game is in the details, involving tone, clarity, facial expression, body posture, fluidity and cleverness of response, and tons of other subtle and not really identified social skills.

    Anybody simply reading from a script isn’t going to make “OK, who brought their little sister to the bar!” sound one bit more charismatic than “No, I’m not gay!”

    Most of the success of the seduction community isn’t really in the details of the advice, (if at all) but in motivating men to practice for themselves and play the numbers. It’s only through actual practice “in the field” that people improve their game through natural social learning processes.

    Facial expression, vocal tone, and all those skills that are vital to game, simply can’t be learned from a book, but can be improved somewhat by simply interacting with the opposite sex in the ancient courtship ritual more often.

    Though most success and “improvement”, I believe, simply comes from playing the numbers. Sadly a smelly bum who stands on the corner all day and just asks every woman who passes by if she wants fuck, will probably end up with more and better looking total sex partners than a shy and fairly handsome man who always just waited for women to come to him.

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  23. I mean, I could work on becoming like an “alpha” like Roissy, but it’s just not me, I wouldn’t feel comfortable doing it, and it’s just much easier to use porn as the alternative.

    I honestly don’t think you are lazy. I think you are afraid of rejection. The first step to get a girl is to have the courage to talk to her, to make advances, to ask her out. Most of the times you will be rejected, but you will get lucky sooner or later. You have the charms to be a ladiesman, Spungeon loves you for instance.

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  24. I think you are afraid of rejection. The first step to get a girl is to have the courage to talk to her, to make advances, to ask her out. Most of the times you will be rejected, but you will get lucky sooner or later.

    Yes, I am afraid of rejection, and well quite frankly, I know myself better than anyone else, and given my track record with friends, I think it’s very easy to hypothesize that my potential with women that I find attractive to be non-existant. As I like to say, even the ugly loser girls can do better.

    Plus, it’s just easier to use porn than to deal with ugly girls or real life girls who just can not compete with the beauty and sexual vigour that porn girls provide. There’s no way I can get a real life girl with tattoos , tongue piercing, long acrylic nails, lots of make up, long hair, big lips, DD cup tits, and a nice 40 inch ass, and high heels. Real life only gives me girls with A cups, short hair, no nails, ugly hipster sneakers, no make up, and a girl with no ass. I just really, really doesn’t compete for me, and it’s not an incentive to go out and “hunt” for women.

    Besides, even if I magically asked a girl out, and by some act of god, she says yes, I’d have no idea of what to do with her on a “date”. I’m quite boring, and my idea of fun isn’t mainstream, nor do I have the money to take her to a nice restaurant. Taking her to TGI Fridays or Cheesecake Factory or the local diner is what I did with Wellesley Queen. I don’t like clubs, and I stay away from bars because drunk white people are scary (and have a tendency beat the shit out of black men, especially if they show interest in white women).

    You have the charms to be a ladiesman, Spungeon loves you for instance.

    I’ve actually been told by many female friends that I lack charisma and charm. They’ve agreed with my assessment that I am a boring beta male, and they’ve declined to send me out on dates with their friends since they know it wouldn’t work out.

    BTW, Spungen doesn’t love me, she has an husband to take care of that. She’s just very similar to my female friends, so we get along very well. I think it’s a mistake to confuse our cameraderie for her being attracted to me.

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  25. DA, you are just bound and determined not to be romantically successful with women. You will succeed in your ambition, as most people succeed in realizing desires they pursue with passion and energy.

    BTW, despite the “best friend” trap having a lot of women who like to hang out and talk with you is the first step toward being a player.

    20 has it right. Body language and non-verbal confidence is all, and its developed by practice, including some long months getting rejected. I don’t have the energy for that, especially now that I’m almost 40 and a bit old to hang in clubs. But I’ll stick with my 2-4 women a year until I find one hot enough to settle down with.

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  26. whoops, I meant comment 23 has it right.

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  27. DA, you are just bound and determined not to be romantically successful with women. You will succeed in your ambition, as most people succeed in realizing desires they pursue with passion and energy.

    I’ve seen so many boring and uninteresting men like myself do very poorly with women and waste time and money chasing a dream that will never come true. There’s a certain class of males who are never going to have a female, and quite frankly, I am in that class of males. Even the most optimistic version of me would be unsuccessful at “scoring” with women.

    I have a fraction of the female friends that I used to have. One fled because her boyfriend became jealous of me. Two others left me because I was a liar and a pathetic loser and shell of a man, so they didn’t want to have anything to do with me. And I didn’t mind the friend trap. It was great since I didn’t have any responsibilities with them. Got to hang out with them and I didn’t have to pay for dates or do any of the heavy lifting crap for them since they had boyfriends to do that for them. 🙂

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  28. Nice test, but it puts too much value on game. As many people said before, you don’t need game if you project a natural alpha image. Game is mostly for betas trying to grow their rank.

    Also, you had another post on defining an alpha, from which I copy:

    Alpha 8,9 Concurrent multiple 100-500 lifetime partners;
    long term relationships; 10-20 affairs;
    love at first sight; 2 threesomes
    videotapes homemade porn;
    girlfriend scared to
    pressure him into marriage

    So by that definition I would be an alpha – but on the above test I only scored 9.

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  29. On the IQ section, you’ve got to give something like negative 20 points for IQs below 70 or 75 (the area where you start getting into borderline mental retardation). There is no way that those guys are going to attract any female interest at all, regardless of where they are on the other qualities. Also, under 85 (which is the bottom 16% or so of the population) has got to be worth more than 1 negative point.

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  30. on October 20, 2007 at 8:06 am planetary watson

    A thought which is perhaps somewhat off topic, but might be worthy of a thread. It’s obvious (as in this poll) that a huge portion of game revolves around keeping your head and remaining aloof when in the presence of hot women. And it’s equally obvious that being able to do so requires self control and — most importantly — the belief that you *will be able to get another one* if you let this one go. That requires some track record of past success along with the subsequent desensitization.

    Towards that end, I have a bit of a story/observation. It actually kind of jibes with a recent essay by Naomi Wolf (who is usually otherwise a purveyor of useless platitudes).

    I have to go autobiographical here. I did pretty well for myself in college and my early 20’s, but then got fat by 24. I got back in shape and totally ripped, and from age 25 to 26 ran Mystery Method with a vengeance, with excellent results. But it took a huge amount of time and was taking away from levelling up at work. I continued working out but scaled back on MM stuff to focus on work.

    Then, just out of curiosity, I started getting into the Redbook/Eros Guide scene. I was (and am) very focused on remaining safe and not getting caught by the police. Probably the thing that most appealed to me about it was that it was sex on tap. It was cheaper and less time consuming, the girls were hotter, and it was available on demand whenever you wanted it without any obligations afterwards. Plus you could have your pick of literally hundreds (brunettes, Asians, blondes, whatever) at $200 to $400 a pop. I probably drop in the ballpark of $5-10k a year on the hobby, but I don’t even feel it because I’m making good money.

    Here’s the thing. I have now become a fucking animal when it comes to game. I’m on another level. I have slept with so many women that I don’t have to fake disinterest. I really *am* disinterested. On the occasions that I run game at coffee houses or bookstores or whatever, I just truly do not care. It’s like a video game which I play it out of habit once in a while. I mean, I still get rejected every so often (though with increasingly good target selection this is a rarity). But the thing is that I really just do not care when that happens. I know that if I have a really high libido at that point, I don’t have to sacrifice my pride. I just hit speed dial and get whomever I want.

    Phone game and all the shit that used to mess me up…I just don’t care anymore. No nervousness. Girl wants to play games? Ok, whatever, NEXT. Girl is unduly emotional and incapable of having a discussion? NEXT. Girl is fine and all but just taking up your spare bandwidth when you really need to just focus to kill this project? NEXT.

    NEXT, NEXT, NEXT.

    I’ve thought about it and the widespread availability of porn/prostitution has really totally broken whatever pair bonding drive I have. It’s like making yourself into a synthetic uber-alpha. It’s supply and demand when the supply just completely explodes.

    I can completely understand now why civilizations have evolved taboos against porn/prostitution. It really does change the entire game. How many titans of industry or artists or musicians or whatever sacrificed so much to build it for the girl of their dreams? And now you let the rat off the wheel. It no longer cares about the cheese, there’s blocks of it lying all around the place. It’s like the Futurama episode with Lucy Liu.

    Anyway. Just some thoughts. I suppose it’s possible that as I get older, I’ll want to have kids and that will compel me to settle down. But right now…it’s kind of interesting to have some IDDQD up in this bitch, so to speak.

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  31. Excellent and ineresting post, Planetary Watson 31. But you truncate on a couple of details and confuse me. What is Redbook/Eros Guide scene or the whole Naomi Wolf thing?

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  32. Naomi Wolf wrote an article in New York magazine about how the availability of porn was making young men uninterested in sex with real women, and how women were increasingly forced to compete with commercial “sex object” women in porn and in strip clubs. I cited it, with a link, on my blog.

    But I have no idea what the other references are.

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  33. A strip club can be a positive thing, like training wheels, to a shy beta. If he treats lap dances and the strippers’ solicitous attitude as a demistification of the intimidating female, and an opportunity to practice his charm, it can do him good. As long as his ultimate goal is to then seek the company of normal women.

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  34. If period-pieces and Victorian-era cliches are true, then there probably was a similar logic to an upper class father’s arranging for a prostitute to give his teenage son a first sexual experience.

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  35. Plus you could have your pick of literally hundreds (brunettes, Asians, blondes, whatever) at $200 to $400 a pop.

    Dear God, I can’t even afford a prostitute at those rates. I make that much every two weeks!

    A strip club can be a positive thing, like training wheels, to a shy beta.

    I’ve never been to a strip club, and I’ve been tempted to go a few times, but the whole experience seems like a sham. The girls there aren’t really “real life girls”, they don’t give a shit about you except for your money, and it makes no sense for her to dance around me like that without the ability to complete the act with her or another woman at the club (legally). If anything, it just creates more sexual dysfunction, which you attempt to solve again by going back to the club and creating an expensive, unfufilling cycle.

    As long as his ultimate goal is to then seek the company of normal women.

    No, the purpose is to replace “normal” women. Strip clubs are substitute goods that you use to replace the sexual functions of the sexless, normal looking women in your life. Nobody goes to a strip club then rushes home to have sex with their wife. In most cases, doing so only leads to a shriveled up broken penis at home. Without the option to bang the strippers at the club, you might at well stay at home and masturbate to your porn collection which you can download for free if you’re smart enough.

    If period-pieces and Victorian-era cliches are true, then there probably was a similar logic to an upper class father’s arranging for a prostitute to give his teenage son a first sexual experience.

    A prostitute is a bit of a clumsy way of doing that, but then MILFs weren’t available in that period. I lost my virginity to an older woman who was very good, adventurous, and well skilled, and didn’t mind “training” me on her likes and dislikes, and I think it was a much better way than learning about sex via prostitute which can leave the tendency to be a bad sex partner with future partners.

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  36. David, the key word in my strip club note was “training wheels.” You personally may indeed seek to replace real women but most other men do in fact want to meet a real woman and pair-bond.

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  37. DA u give me hope. i think i am quite funny and lots to offer just too giddy to offer it. and once i am talking to ladies they are having fun (well maybe nogt all) and they find me already attractive. my friedn said i do alpha stuff but i wouldnt realize it. i know my problem is thinking too much about what to say and hence build anxiety about having nutin too say and sometimes there are too many people around and withing earshot. i dont want to fall flat in front of them. often times its like why should she care but in truth why shouldnt she. i dont see nobody else talking to her and besides that enough should be reason she should appreciate it. lately i have tried and for some reason i leave without n]knowing their names. its like i am stuck in the conversation which usually goes better when i am not thinking hence i often wound up not closing. hopefully when i see them again i would have left them with enought cheers to reember me. hey we all have our game. this is mine.

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  38. PA, I need two women, one to keep me emotionally satisfied, and another to keep me sexually aroused and satisfied. You cannot get that from the same woman, hence my female friends & strip club/porn/prostitute references.

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  39. 31… It’s obvious (as in this poll) that a huge portion of game revolves around keeping your head and remaining aloof when in the presence of hot women. And it’s equally obvious that being able to do so requires self control and — most importantly — the belief that you *will be able to get another one* if you let this one go.

    apparently what i needed to hear. still difficult as in not worrying what to say but… from reading here, i know one thing, i see the buying signals from girls, that should be enough. especially after shaving my head (i am bald) the frsh cut seems to generate interest in ladies. hmmm, maybe everytime i shave my head i should prepare to talk to a lady

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  40. Last post, I just find it disconcerting that my worth should be based on how many girls i have slept with. whatever hapoened to my hard work in other areas and the million other things i have accomplished?

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  41. I need two women, one to keep me emotionally satisfied, and another to keep me sexually aroused and satisfied. You cannot get that from the same woman, hence my female friends & strip club/porn/prostitute references.

    I can see why you think so, given your age and lack of practical experience with women. In reality, what you’ll find, if you’re lucky, is a woman who will give you both (sexual and emotional satisfaction), though not to the high standard you imagine at this point. And yet, living with a real woman will stimulate and change you in ways that you haven’t even conceived of earleir.

    It’s like the difference between being fat and potato-chip glutted while fantasizing youself throwing an NFL touchdown pass vs. kicking ass in a mere muddy tackle football game with your pals.

    Here is another analogy: a smart seven year old “knows” that he’ll be an astronaut when he grows and he’ll settle for nothing less. But if he’s lucky, he’ll grow up to be a mere engineer of skilled technician – but won’t think of this as a compromise.

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  42. I just find it disconcerting that my worth should be based on how many girls i have slept with. whatever hapoened to my hard work in other areas and the million other things i have accomplished?

    It’s a subculture thing.

    If you frequented runners’ blogs you’d feel down on yourself for never having broken a 2:30 maraton time, all your other accomplishments notwithstanding.

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  43. DA, you also overvalue the emotional value of your female friends. Will any of your female friends work more hours if you lose your job? Will any of your friends sit by you in a hospital 24/7 when you’re sick? will any of your friends make you a sandwhich and wash the plate when you’re exhausted? will any of you female friends give a fuck if something good or bad happens to you?

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  44. Am I the only one here who’s into athletic girl-next-door types who played field hockey/soccer and don’t wear a lot of makeup or have fake tits?

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  45. Fake tits are grotesque.

    I like the petite natural beauty with long dark hair.

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  46. Am I the only one here who’s into athletic girl-next-door types who played field hockey/soccer and don’t wear a lot of makeup or have fake tits?

    No, you’re not.

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  47. By the way D.A. , I think it’s much easier to get a chubby, voluptuous girls nowadays than a skinny one, modern trends favour you.

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  48. In fact, I would accord the following weight to these factors:
    Height (.50)
    BMI (.10)
    Attractiveness (.20)
    Intelligence/Personality/Humor (.10)
    Income (.05)
    Race (.05)

    I never quite understand why height is accorded such importance, whether it has to do with dating or professional advancement or overall popularity. Maybe it’s because I’m right at the American male median height of 5’10”, but all throughout my adult life I probably think of my height less often than I think of my eye color. It’s a nearly irrelevant factor. Nor do I much notice other peoples’ heights unless they’re particularly tall or short.

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  49. This test was probably somewhat accurate in most cases. Roissy seems to be a very smart guy, but I think it is basically simpler than that. I would say for men, job status and height are the most important, followed by body type and sense of humor. For women, body type is most important, followed by face looks. For a short term relationship, sexual adventure comes next, and for long term, kindness/personality comes next.

    I think short guys (under 5’8 or so) probably suffer a much bigger penalty than tall guys gain a benefit. 6′ to 6’2 is probably the best height for a guy. Most guys don’t care about a woman’s height as long as she isn’t one of the extremes.

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  50. I like my women tall. It probably comes from my mom criticizing any girl that I liked that was under 5’9″.

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  51. In reality, what you’ll find, if you’re lucky, is a woman who will give you both (sexual and emotional satisfaction), though not to the high standard you imagine at this point. And yet, living with a real woman will stimulate and change you in ways that you haven’t even conceived of earleir.

    That’s the problem, I want that high standard met, otherwise, the female isn’t sexually attractive to me. I don’t want to be one of those guys who has to cheat on his wife to have a good sex life. I need the total slutty appearance to feel sexually aroused. Most women just can’t offer that, and I don’t want to force that upon them.

    Sometimes, I see these men with their ho-hum or ugly girlfriends, and I wonder why do they associate with women that reinforce their loserhood. I almost imagine that these men are masturbating to porn, going to strip clubs, using prostitutes, and cheating on their significant others with hotter women. These women aren’t sexually attractive, and there has to be something wrong with these men to find them attractive enough to stay in a long term relationship. In fact, there must be something wrong to find such women sexually attractive in the first place irregardless of their personality. These men are either broken or have so little self-respect for themselves. It’s disheartening. It would have been so much better for these men to have just stayed alone and single and retain their pride. That’s what I’ve done. No hug, cuddle, or kiss is worth staying involved with an ugly woman regardless of race.

    DA, you also overvalue the emotional value of your female friends.

    I’m well aware that I’m second fiddle in their lives just as they’re second fiddle in mine. Yes, they’d be happy if something good happened to me and sad if something bad, but quite frankly, if I lose my job, become sick, or even something as the sandwich when I’m tired is my responsibility. At this point in my life, I’m aware that I’m going to have to save up quite a bit of money to substitute for that, but with the money saved from not going on pointless dates invested properly in the market in a health savings account, IRA, and various other accounts, I think I’ll do better than the rest of you. It’s obviously nice to have somebody do those things for you, but for some of us, it’s just not going to happen, and it’s best to be prepared.

    Am I the only one here who’s into athletic girl-next-door types who played field hockey/soccer and don’t wear a lot of makeup or have fake tits?

    If I wanted that, then I’d go gay and date a gay guy, or I’d hang out with her as a friend. I just don’t see that body type as a sexual turn on.

    By the way D.A. , I think it’s much easier to get a chubby, voluptuous girls nowadays than a skinny one, modern trends favour you.

    They’re still not sexual, and these girls won’t date black men either for fear of dropping lower on the social scale, especially one of my low status. Plus, most are lacking in the total slut look, and like most women, their sex drive is simply incompatible with men.

    It’s almost as if the ideal state would have alpha males mating with women, women involved in lesbian affairs, and the rest of the non-alpha male population having sex with sex robots. The economic vitality such a system would unleash would bring global prosperity… 🙂

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  52. DA I find it difficult hyou look this down upon yourself for someone who speaks so well. And with much knowledge, articulate too. Maybe you hjust need to look inward like they say in psych school. I dunno, or maybe someone needs to beat you into shape until you see what you are doing. Either way, common man, enjoy yourself a little. True you need a job and some money, I am nogt convinced that all the sex in the world will validate me or make a man of me, but some girls really would work with you. You never know, they may show you the way out of your rut. Self esteem doesnt seem to be your problem except the animosity of the internet id a boost to your morale.

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  53. DA I find it difficult hyou look this down upon yourself for someone who speaks so well. And with much knowledge, articulate too.

    Trust me, I don’t speak well, I’m not articulate, and I’m a blathering idiot in real life. Anybody with a good spell check can come across as intelligent on the Internet.

    Maybe you hjust need to look inward like they say in psych school.

    I did that already, I already know there’s a pathetic shell of a man with low IQ and nothing worth any value.

    but some girls really would work with you. You never know, they may show you the way out of your rut.

    No attractive woman would deal with me. No woman with any self-worth would deal with me. Only broken ugly loser women would deal with me, and I have too much self-respect to deal with such women.

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  54. There’s something pretty wrong with the scoring. I wasn’t keeping exact score, but it was about -2. However, when I read the descriptions at the end, I should’ve scored 10-14 with girls my own age, and 15-19 with college-age girls. This is based on experience of how girls treat me.

    The problem with these goof measures is that they’re mostly meant to provide humorous commentary on the dating scene, not to accurately measure something. Which is OK, as long as no one takes it seriously. It’s probably the desperate who are fretting over their score.

    But for the record, basically what’s wrong is that all women face a trade-off when selecting a mate — unless it’s an online dating service, or unless they’re flipping through a catalogue of sperm donors, they will never find, let alone obtain, the guy who has it all.

    So, if you excel in a few desirable areas, but don’t do well at all in others, most pretty girls aren’t going to care. The measure here assumes that someone in the top 5% or 1% of something exciting is swamped to loserdom by being in the bottom 50% or 5% in other things. Not true.

    A related problem is that all of the scoring is linear: the difference between bottom and middle is 1 point, and so is the diff between middle and top. But that’s not true either. Consider looks. If you’re out to get casual sex, girls do treat a 5 better than a 1, and a 10 better than a 5 — but they treat the 10 much, much better than the 5, compared to the 5-to-1 difference. A 1 and a 5 are both ugly, so why bother distinguishing shades of ugliness? But as you increase above 5, your score steadily increases.

    It might go something like:
    0-5: no points
    6-7: 1 point
    8: 4 points
    9-10: 9 points

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  55. I want that high standard met, otherwise, the female isn’t sexually attractive to me.

    I should have said “cartoonish standards,” not “high standards” in the note that you’re replying to. Besides, if your stimulation is 100% visual (as in porn) then yes, you’ll have very exacting standards.

    But with a real woman, you are stimulated visually, and in terms of smell, touch, emotion, and so on.

    Plus the element of the unexpected when being with a real person: you know what the girl in the porn wil say next; but you don’t know what your girlfriend will say. It’s like the difference between scratching your own back vs. someone else scratching it.

    See again my analogy about a little boy who knew that he’d grow up to be an astronaut.

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  56. on October 21, 2007 at 2:17 pm Days of Broken Arrows

    Planetary Watson’s observations should be explored further on this blog. Interesting stuff that some of us have experienced but usually not to his degree.

    Another alternative is to find women who don’t mind having a loose financial arrangement — you can hit it and give them shoes or $100. This, ultimately, is probably the best thing all around.

    Also, Alias Cleo, you didn’t offer a link to you blog.

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  57. All right, DOBA, my blog’s URL should now be linked to my user name – just click. If you want to find the post on Naomi Wolf, just enter her name in the search box on my blog.

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  58. How big is your cock? Kind of forgot that one dude.

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  59. I should have said “cartoonish standards,” not “high standards” in the note that you’re replying to. Besides, if your stimulation is 100% visual (as in porn) then yes, you’ll have very exacting standards.

    But with a real woman, you are stimulated visually, and in terms of smell, touch, emotion, and so on.

    I don’t really think that they’re cartoonish standards. It’s just that I have a high threshold for my sexual stimulance. I’ll contend that smell and touch do have a role to play, but emotion is a secondary concern in sex, and can sometimes get in the way. Yes, it is possible to love somebody too much to shoot your load of semen onto their face or fuck them in the ass.

    Plus the element of the unexpected when being with a real person: you know what the girl in the porn wil say next; but you don’t know what your girlfriend will say.

    I don’t think that’s a bad thing. With porn, you’re assured of getting the same high quality experience over and over again. In contrast, with your s/o, the experience will be bad by default, and how bad it will be will depend on her mood, her willingness, and what she thinks of me. So instead of relying on such fickle indicators to provide low quality sexual satisfaction, I can use porn to bypass that entire mess to get something that’s guaranteed. Porn gives me the kind of woman that I want. Real life just simply can not deliver because most women will not turn themselves into purely sexual objects of desire, and those who do only do it for money, not for sexual excitement.

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  60. on October 21, 2007 at 5:35 pm Days of Broken Arrows

    Alias Clio,

    Thanks for the link, but it’s hard to take anyone seriously who takes Dawn Eden seriously. Self-hating, name-chaing Jews like Dawn Goldstein (her real name) who use the Catholic religion to hawk crappy books deserve the scorn of folks of all religions — plus atheists like myself. Eden also proves why women cannot be taken seriously as journalists – because they fuck their story subjects.

    While I’m ranting, I think that the all-encompassing influence of porn are a good payback for men having to deal with the effects of feminism. Women for years said they wanted to be liberated from the 1950s mode of repression and they needed men like fish need bicycles. Thanks to porn, who are the bicycles now? I find it ironic that in her artilce Wolf longs for a return to the repressive-for-female culture she helped destroy!

    DOBA

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  61. DA – the jpegs you posted give the lie to your incessant clattering about there being very few hot slutty chicks in real life for you to consider sleeping with in lieu of porn. if this is what you like in porn, you clearly don’t get out of the house. one short jaunt down 18th st here in my hood and i pass by at least 50 girls cute enough to turn me on and who would shame those trannies you’ve set up in your jpeg porn selection as exemplars of sexually intoxicating women. it’s time for your absurdist shtick to retire.

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  62. Re: the dating market value quiz.
    questions 19 through 27 are game-related questions that serve to tease out your inherent level of dominance and cool aloofness when dealing with woman, and as such have been included as a way to avoid having to deal with weighting the more objectively-measurable traits like job status and height.

    iow, if you have solid game and a dominating personality you can offset a poor score in the other more traditional factors.

    if there were no game questions included then, yes, i would agree that height, for instance, would need to be weighted more heavily than looks or BMI.
    but not more heavily than personality. do NOT underestimate the value of a dominant personality for scoring pussy, regardless of how much money you make or what car you drive.

    agnostic – point taken. i considered adding a sliding scale for some of the factors but instead decided to substitute with Game questions. a 6 in looks with Game will do much better in the field than a 9 in looks with no game.

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  63. I agree that the value of a dominant personality should not be discounted when considering scoring pussy. HOWEVER, let’s also not overestimate its value. I don’t care what kind of game you have, if you’re 5’5″, balding, etc., you’re not getting much pussy.

    It’s like the hot girl with the nice tits telling the chubby girl, “Hey, do NOT underestimate the value of a good personality or having sex appeal”.

    Have you heard of white privilege, where the argument is that white folks are oblivious to the privileges they have by being white? Well, one could make the same argument for the idea of height privilege. You can’t understand how much of an advantage one has by being tall.

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  64. Is balding really that much of a disadvantage? I’ve seen bald guys, who shave their heads, with very hot women.

    I don’t even really understand what a “dominant” personality is. Order the girls around? Talk in a deep, serious voice? Start fights? Maybe this is the reason I score a -3.

    In online dating, women are very shallow. I have no problem with guys who put on fake or very old pics, cancel at the last minute, and otherwise fuck over the women. They deserve what they get if a pic is their only criteria.

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  65. Dawn Eden isn’t a self-hating Jew, unless you think by some mysterious process that it’s less self-hating for a Jew to be an atheist, which I believe is what she was brought up as, than to become a Christian. Incidentally, I think that Eden was her mother’s maiden name, and her mother was Jewish too. People sometimes adopt a religion out of conviction, you know, not for increased social acceptance. Anyway, it’s likely that she received as much criticism as she did accolades for converting.

    Not all female journalists have sexual relationships with their story subjects. Nor is it clear to me that Dawn Eden ever did so, although it’s certainly possible. She did get involved with musicians, but I don’t know that any of them were also interview subjects. As I said, it’s perfectly possible; I just don’t know. BTW, do male journalists never have sex with their interviewees?

    I think her book is a good one, and has been very popular because it addresses a need among people who find the present morass of sexual relationships, and its motto – use or be used – impossible to cope with. Certainly if I ever felt tempted to enter the dating world again, Roissy’s blog would be enough to remind me why I left it behind!

    Feminist “culture” was already pretty far advanced when Naomi Wolf entered the fray. I don’t think you can hold her responsible for destroying the old sexual system, or even doing much to help it along; she wasn’t that influential. For that matter, I don’t think you can hold feminism solely responsible either. Oral contraceptives and the 1960s sexual revolution, which had very little to do with feminism (ever read some of the things Abby Hoffman and his ilk had to say about women in “the Movement”?) had far more to do with altering sexual mores than feminism did.

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  66. if this is what you like in porn, you clearly don’t get out of the house. one short jaunt down 18th st here in my hood and i pass by at least 50 girls cute enough to turn me on and who would shame those trannies you’ve set up in your jpeg porn selection as exemplars of sexually intoxicating women. it’s time for your absurdist shtick to retire.

    I do get out of the house, and most of the women in real life simply do not compare. The women I pointed out are walking sex goddesses as far as I’m concerned, and most women in real life are frumpy & asexual with useless A, B, and C cups. That’s good enough to hang out with, but certainly not enough for fucking. I haven’t been turned on by a normal girl in nearly two or three years.

    Roissy, I dare you to post some photos of women who look hot to you, we’ll see what the commenters here think of our choices.

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  67. David:
    Have you ever considered that your tastes in women may be the result of conditioning, and that you might be able to change them with more conditioning? Try replacing all your mainstream porn with girl-next-door stuff for a couple of months, and see what happens.

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  68. Am I the only one who is tired of David Alexander’s tendency to put himself down and shift the focus of the thread to him in the process? Dude, write your own blog, I’m tired of your pitiful, shoegazing.

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  69. Shouldn’t there be a whole field of endeavor (which I will dub “meta-game”) which seeks to put a guy in situations where none of this stuff matters?

    I mean, what a GYNOCENTRIC list, Roissy. One would think you inhabit a world where females ran everything… or secretly wish to!

    For instance, on many of these criteria, I would score a negative 1. I am 5’8″; I have never played team sports; I have never been in a fistfight after 4th grade (I’m a pacifist, like Dennis Kucinich, my hero); I’m skinny and look like I never work out. (OK, on other criteria, I score high — I am always the first to initiate contact, usually very loudly, at parties… etc.)

    Anyway, in my view, “meta-game” is the only game that really counts, and seeks to render all of these gynocentric criteria moot. For instance, I date women from countries where women are not socially inculcated with an entitlement complex, as US women are. I use my own financial means to project myself only into those social situations — i.e., the ones where I am in control and can be the “selector”, rather than the “selectee”.

    Your approach, Roissy, seems more passive and fatalistic. Yes, just wait for those picky, entitled women to come and select me, as if I were a piece of slave meat on the auction block.

    Is this really what we guys should stand for?

    I think not. To do anything less, is to be guilty of not using all our brain cells.

    Why doesn’t every guy in the DC area with a modicum of financial means simply boycott the spoiled, demanding women who run everything in the DC area, and go elsewhere? There’s a whole world out there with desirable women who are as different from the typical American chick as a chocolate layer cake is different from a pile of dog shit.

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  70. on October 22, 2007 at 1:05 am Days of Broken Arrows

    Joe T said:

    “For instance, I date women from countries where women are not socially inculcated with an entitlement complex, as US women are.”

    I agree with your entire post. I want to add that in addition to dating foreign women, the criteria changes dramatically for men when dealing with women from US subcultures. For example, brawn will not get you far with most Jewish women — nerdiness often will. And Hispanic women tend to favor shorter men. I don’t want to get started on Asian women, because lots of people will have lots to say, but let’s just say unlike white women, they don’t seem to take to the bad boy thing.

    If you lack Brad Pitt’s height or looks, hit the subcultures, peeps!

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  71. Joe T,

    i agree with your point of gynocentrism very strongly.

    i’ve been reading roissy’s log for a while and find it pretty fucking funny and with plenty of insight.

    he does have a completely female centric view of the world though. how many women in his environment give up the pussy = his value.

    he even defines an alpha male as simply how much pussy you get, nothing more and nothing less.

    now, i’m not saying he is miles from reality because in the first world today women have more and more power, and in big american cities his POV is shockingly accurate.

    i’m not sure what the alternative is, you can try to be one of the 10% of guys who fucks 90% of the girls, or you can try to get lucky sometimes, or you can just give up (go elsewhere, hookers, whatever).

    the biggest detail to for the guys like mystery and so on is they’ve tailored every fucking thing they do to picking up women – but they select very particular women in very particular places. having routines and little outfits and so on is really narrowing the focus; instead of worrying about “the game” i think selecting what women to go after is the first thing.

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  72. Have you ever considered that your tastes in women may be the result of conditioning, and that you might be able to change them with more conditioning? Try replacing all your mainstream porn with girl-next-door stuff for a couple of months, and see what happens.

    I’m much too wedded to the porn right now to really give it up. I moved from the girl next door stuff to porn because the former was so boring and uninteresting. It wasn’t until I found mainstream porn that I finally was able to become sexually aroused. To be honest, what’s so bad about being attracted to mainstream porn girls over girl-next-door types? I’m probably happier than the losers who date those girls and then act happy that they had athletic activity that resembled sex. Watching porn opened my eyes to a world of enjoyable sex that regular people just don’t have and are sadly missing out on.

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  73. che che, if you notice, people like “mystery” and other American purveyors of so-called “game” tactics, are really putting American males in the traditional female role. I mean, I’ve never read that mystery shit, but OUTFITS?! Come now.

    So is this how far we American males have sunk, that now we are putting together special, coordinated outfits to attract women when we go out?

    Oh god, if this is true, send me to Kazakhstan for the rest of my life…

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  74. Some of you guys are totally missing the appeal of porn. It’s NOT that the women in porn are perfect goddesses. It’s that they are the hot chicks you see EVERYWHERE, only they’re doing every filthy thing your imagination can come up with.

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  75. Joe T., give us more details. Are you trying to tell us you’re into the mail order bride scene, or what?

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  76. DA:
    Roissy, I dare you to post some photos of women who look hot to you,

    a dare implies some level of difficulty in meeting its demands.
    two words:
    melissa theuriau
    i believe a downgrade from dare to request is in order.

    The women I pointed out are walking sex goddesses as far as I’m concerned,

    they are gotesque tranny-like creatures. and the ones that look remotely like women are no better than modestly fuckable.
    it’s hard to take you seriously when you insist otherwise. it leads one to suspect your whole there-but-for-the-grace-of-porn-go-i routine is a grand put-on to sieze the retarded internet stage so beloved of attention starved malcontents.

    and most women in real life are frumpy & asexual with useless A, B, and C cups.

    you write like a virgin.

    That’s good enough to hang out with, but certainly not enough for fucking.

    scratch that.
    you write like a eunuch.

    I haven’t been turned on by a normal girl in nearly two or three years.

    have you considered getting bloodwork done to check your testosterone levels?
    not rhetorical.

    joe t.:
    Your approach, Roissy, seems more passive and fatalistic.

    not at all.
    the smooth execution of game, of which so much success with women depends, is an active approach.
    so is making a lot of money and staying fit.

    che che:
    he does have a completely female centric view of the world though.

    i prefer to think of it as a reality-centric view.

    joey:
    It’s NOT that the women in porn are perfect goddesses. It’s that they are the hot chicks you see EVERYWHERE,

    if by hot chicks you mean ugly men in drag with hilariously overinflated inhuman fake beachball tits and steakchomping mandibles as illustrated in david alexander’s jpegs, then you live in a town unrepresentative of the average female population.
    it’s funny because DA could’ve easily posted jpegs of truly hot porn chicks as the quality of the women in the porn business has progressively improved since the loosening of cultural taboos against the industry. there are simply a lot more cute girls willing to do a stint in porn today thanks to its elevation from a seedy subculture to mainstream entertainment.
    c.f.: retro raw.

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  77. melissa theuriau

    She’s pretty, but she’s too thin, flatchested and statuesque to be sexual.

    you write like a virgin.

    I haven’t been a virgin for almost 4 years.

    have you considered getting bloodwork done to check your testosterone levels?
    not rhetorical.

    Last time I checked about a year ago, my testosterone levels were average. I may have overexaggerated, but most normal looking women don’t turn me on. It’s the slutted up versions that work for me.

    they are gotesque tranny-like creatures. and the ones that look remotely like women are no better than modestly fuckable.

    Maybe it’s due to years of watching porn and reading stories about women turned from normal women into sluts, but for me, that type of woman is attractive to me. One female friend once suggested that I give up on waiting for a normal woman and that I should turn to tranvestites. Of course, the problem with that is that I’m not gay…

    I guess I like hyper-sexuallized exaggerated females as sex partners. Wouldn’t you like a girl who’s “built” for sex with large tits, large round ass, lots of make up, and clothing designed to emphasize her features? Most women in real life don’t look anything like that, and B cups are rather tomboyish to me. I really don’t see what other guys find attractive in their girlfriends and such.

    BTW, the whole “women are sexless” thing may be exaggerated, but seriously, if women wanted sex in the same way that men do, women would go out and find sex instead of having sex come to them. In other words, I would have had more than one woman offer to have sex with me, and that’s irregardless of looks.

    there are simply a lot more cute girls willing to do a stint in porn today thanks to its elevation from a seedy subculture to mainstream entertainment.

    Those girls do shitty, boring “couples porn” and contract porn. They don’t do porn designed for perverted enthusiasts like myself who have replaced women with porn.

    Like


  78. I have found the perfect solution for DA. A lot of porn actresses are also prostitutes, so just go to a nice escort service.

    Like


  79. mq – there’s a stigma attached to meeting members of the opposite sex on the internet. Whenever an American guy looks specifically for foreign women on the internet, lots of Americans (who are either jealous guys, or arch-feminist women who hate the fact that this option exists for American guys to execute), deride it and slap on the blanket label “mail order brides”, which is very far from reality.

    The truth of the matter is that the vast majority of these women are just looking for guys they really can fall in love with. Believe it or not, the sexual power dynamic that exists in the US (especially big eastern cities), heavily weighted in favor of women, is the mirror-opposite in most of Eastern Europe, Russia, and the former soviet countries. Many Americans have such a hard time even imagining this, so they just dismiss it as inconceivable, and call it “mail order brides”.

    A very small subsegment of the market is really “mail order brides”, and that includes a lot of S.E. Asian women (Philippines, Indonesia, etc.) as well as Latin America, but I’m not into that.

    Like


  80. if by hot chicks you mean ugly men in drag with hilariously overinflated inhuman fake beachball tits and steakchomping mandibles as illustrated in david alexander’s jpegs, then you live in a town unrepresentative of the average female population.

    And they’re probably all shaved :(((((

    Like


  81. The “meet an Eastern Europena woman” meme is out there, but it’s no panacea. For a bit of reality-check for guys who withdraw form their native dating market with consoling thoughts of overidealized exotic women, here are some points off the top of my head:

    For one, these women are half a world away. Ya got the time and money to fly there a couple of times and do the paperwork for a fiancee visa?

    Two, not many young women are willing to leave everythign behind for some guy they met on the internet. They have parents and friends, and their own lives where they live.

    Three, they’ll get homesick.

    Four, with the exception of some rural areas in the east, we’re not talking about abject poverty; most young women there do attend colleges, have jobs, or state welfare of some sort.

    Five, there are the cultural differences. They have their own music, style of humor, boyfriends, religion, etc. If you pull her away from her environment, you better have something impressive to compensate her with.

    Six, Eastern Europe is not a “girl store.” There aren’t many doe-eyed Natashas in trash-strewn commie high-rises pining for a nice American beta to rescue them. And wishful thinking to the contrary, EE men aren’t all boorish unemployed drunks anymore than low-to-middle-income Americans are. In fact, EE women’s expectations from men includes an air of macho confidence (can a dateless American guy muster up any sort of confidence?); self-reliance (making money, fixing things); and, depending on the girl’s class expectations, an element of sophistication.

    Seven, if you do meet an EE woman, don’t you think that she’ll acclimatize to US norms, and be as likely to find you wanting once she does size up your competition here?

    I am not saying that inter-cultural marriages can’t work; many do splendidly. But the odds are heavily against them. The American men I know who are married to EE women, and keep them happy, are the same men who rank high on the US dating market.

    Like


  82. on October 22, 2007 at 2:14 pm Days of Broken Arrows

    While you all debate the merits of Eastern European women, remember that the US has already made it illegal to contact these woman via dating sites.

    Thanks to feminist Senator Maria Cantwell, there is something called the “International Marriage Broker Act (IMBRA)”, a law that makes it a crime for American citizens to communicate with foreigners on dating sites.

    Please think about this: It is now ILLEGAL to contact foreigners, making the US like Germany and the Soviet Union back in their heyday.

    This law is unconstitutional and proof of what happens when you elect women to office. They care more about the alleged problems of foreign women than American men (there is little evidence that points to abuse of foreign born women married to US men).

    Here is a link: A feminist group just got a $1 million grant from congress to help enrofce this law
    http://www.prweb.com/releases/2007/10/prweb559970.htm

    This is what happens to US men when they let women hold office. Women are biologically geared towards caring about kids, not men, so you have to expect the worst.

    Like


  83. PA, you sound like you don’t know a thing about Eastern Europe. Just about everything you’ve said is either dead wrong, or, where you’re accurate (like about the generally high level of education of EE women), actually a good thing.

    I’ve already spent a considerable amount of time in EE and the FSU, and yes, I do have the finances to carry it off.

    I don’t want to debate you on Roissy’s site, but if you want a bit of enlightenment, I’d be glad to discuss it via email. My address is lasvegan2007 – at – inbox.com.

    Like


  84. I have found the perfect solution for DA. A lot of porn actresses are also prostitutes, so just go to a nice escort service.

    That route is a bit too expensive now. The going rate for a porn star escort is roughly four times my weekly salary.

    Like


  85. I’m sorry, I don’t normally post this type of stuff but is this David Alexander a real person? This has to be an online character or at least an extreme caricature. The porn stuff, the racial self-hatred shit, it all just clogs up the comments section like the turds Roosh talked about on his blog today.

    No real point here b/c I know my words will only inspire more DA posts, but I was compelled.

    Roissy, keep up the great work. Look forward to the female market value system.

    Like


  86. you sound like you don’t know a thing about Eastern Europe

    Joe, just for the record: I was born and raised in Eastern Europe (came to the US as a teenager), I speak two Slavic languages and my native one fluently, I’ve been visitng Eastern Europe about once a year since 1997, my wife is Easter European as have been about half of the girls I’ve dated when I was single, most of my wife’s girlfriends in the US, some of whom are married to American men, are Eastern European, I read EE media and watch EE movies, and I’ve spent time in Czech Rep., Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Ukraine, and Russia.

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  87. dba:
    Thanks to feminist Senator Maria Cantwell, there is something called the “International Marriage Broker Act (IMBRA)”, a law that makes it a crime for American citizens to communicate with foreigners on dating sites.

    dba, that law is truly fucking tyrannical. despicable. i had no idea about this.
    i am wishing with all my heart that this bitch cantwell gets cancer of the womb and her ovaries explode leading to her very painful slow death.

    joe t:
    PA, you sound like you don’t know a thing about Eastern Europe.

    joe t, i’d be interested in hearing your take on EE and its women.

    Like


  88. Broken Arrows is right about IMBRA and Sen. Maria Cantwell. It should be noted that Cantwell herself is 49 and never married.

    As I’ve pointed out on this board many times, the goals of feminism are very similar to those of Orwell’s Junior Anti-Sex League in “Nineteen Eighty-Four”. They don’t believe in sex (well, hetero sex anyway) and they think men shouldn’t either. IMBRA became necessary for them as a way of keeping American men from obtaining pussy elsewhere since they no longer could get it at home.

    Like


  89. on October 22, 2007 at 4:18 pm Days of Broken Arrows

    Roissy,

    If the Cantwell law upsets you, you should check out the blog of men’s advocate Glenn Sacks (www.glennsacks.com). Sacks chronicles the myriad of laws that have been put into place to make virtually everything about being a boy, man or father hazardous.

    While men are at work accomplishing things, women’s studies graduates are finding new ways to make their very existence a crime.

    Like


  90. on October 22, 2007 at 4:26 pm startingtoday

    I’m waiting for the female version of this test. I’m curious!

    And though I doubt you remember me, it was nice to meet you at the HH on Friday night!

    Like


  91. on October 22, 2007 at 5:38 pm instantExcitement

    DA…..Go to LA. There are lots of fake looking women, who are trying to get into acting, and even porn! You can meet these chicks and try to hook up with them.

    I mean no dig on LA, but seriously, there have to be more porn stars/ unattractive fake looking women in LA than anywhere else I’ve traveled.

    I spent a great deal of time fighting people who advised me to learn about the game, suggesting that it was simply numbers, or good looks, or getting lucky. The sooner you try the simple rules that the seduction community suggests the better off you will be. But if you don’t want to and want to insist you’re correct, please continue down that path, it makes things easier for the rest of us.

    BTW Seduction/Game does not mean repeating a line you found on a website, but rather the way you mentally and physically deal with women.

    Like


  92. I thought I’d post something I found interesting on Reuters today:

    “For unattractiveness, Philadelphia just beat out Washington DC and Dallas/Fort Worth for the bottom spot. Miami and San Diego are home to the most attractive people, the poll found.”

    http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyid=2007-10-22T150149Z_01_SAT253687_RTRUKOC_0_US-PHILADELPHIA-UNATTRACTIVE-1.xml

    For all those who live in D.C., be glad you aren’t in Philly=)

    Like


  93. PA – k. I still think your assessment in your original post is a bit off. Maybe there’s a degree of difference, though, between EE and Russia/Ukraine. For the record, I dated a Hungarian for a long time, and a Croatian for almost as long have spent a huge amount of time in both Hungary and Croatia, also traveled extensively in Ukraine and Russia (as well as Slovakia, Slovenia, Romania, and the Baltics.) It’s funny you would use the name “Natasha” as a stereotype for an EE woman, though, b/c outside of a few variations in the Czech Rep., that name isn’t common anywhere in Eastern Europe. It’s basically only a Russian name.

    Like


  94. No Truth you are not the only one! Everything DA touches turns inane, including usually-interesting people’s replies to him and it turns into a big skimfest.

    Like


  95. If what we’re talking about is meeting EE women for marriage, then, as I noted, there is no panacea in Eastern Europe for American guys who are otherwise unsuccessful in their own country. (I’m not talking about dating/picking up a girl who already is in the US, like a student or an au Pair — that’s a whole different topic.)

    For what it’s worth, one of the keys to making an American’s marriage to an EE woman work is for the guy to make at least enough money to make it possible for her to visit her family once a year and have her sister or mom get a visa and visit.

    Too many U.S. betas think EE women are dolls in a store and are disappointed when pretty girls 18-25 appraise them no differently than their American counterparts do. Believe me, I’ve tried fixing up some of my single American acquaintances with EE girls.

    Like


  96. a little disconcerting that so many men are outraged over IMBRA (aka the ban on the mail-order bride act). is this your only option for a lay/girlfriend/wife? maybe you should read up on the act before jumping on the bandwagon. if guys are so hard up for woman, go to any miami or vegas strip club and take your pick…

    i am wishing with all my heart that this bitch cantwell gets cancer of the womb

    nice…

    Like


  97. insert ‘eastern european’ in hard up for woman

    Like


  98. on October 23, 2007 at 1:04 pm Days of Broken Arrows

    “It’s a little disconcerting that so many men are outraged over IMBRA (aka the ban on the mail-order bride act). is this your only option for a lay/girlfriend/wife?”

    This isn’t the point. The point is that it’s a restiction on men’s freedoms. The argument against this act is not the act itself it’s against the unconstitutional restriction of freedom. I have the same problem wit hthe Patriot Act.

    Your argument is a typical feminist argument — disparige the man as a “loser” (“is this your only option?”) which supposedly shames the man into giving away his rights (or freedom or money). Another feminist way of arguing is calling the guy “gay” or a “woman hater”.

    Men have now developed a game called “fembot bingo” where they list all the idiotic feminist ideas when arguing with a feminst (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070904152026AAPuO5r). When the woman in question hits all the cliched points, you shout “bingo!”

    I will restate my original point: Senator Maria Cantwell has restricted US men from contacting foreign women. This is no different that when the Soviet gov’t or German gov’t banned their citizens from the same thing. This used to TERRIFY Us citizens. Now you think it’s great. This cannot be justified under the laws of a free country. Liberties have been taken away, the constitution is in tatters, and all you can come up with is “are you guys that hard up?”

    We need to all remember that it was men who pioneered basic concepts such as freedom of speech and personal liberties. It’s telling that women didn’t come up with these.

    Like


  99. One hundred!

    OK, when is the follow-up post for the laydeez coming? Get cracking, the internet is a harsh master.

    Like


  100. I must say that I think this IMBRA business (which I’d never heard of before – but then, I’m Canadian) sounds like an unreasonable restriction on American men’s right to free association. I think brides in these situations do need some protection, but from what I’ve been able to discover in checking this out on line, there are already many protections in place for them, once the relationship gets serious enough for them to contemplate marriage and emigration.

    It might be worth while, though, to consider ways of protecting the American husbands in this kind of set up. They too can get taken for a ride by unscrupulous foreign women and their families. My cousin’s relationship with his Colombian wife was perfectly legitimate, but it took him over a year after they were married to bring her to Canada, thanks to hassles from Canadian consular (immigration) officials in Colombia, who were convinced, from past experience it seemed, that Colombian girls were all evil harlots out to bilk unsuspecting innocent Canadian men.

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  101. PA – I totally agree with your comments about EE and Russian girls needing to see their families, interact with old friends, and visit their home countries regularly. They are human beings, not dolls. Totally agree.

    That said, I’ve never seen them as anything less than human beings. Any woman who would marry a guy in the US, and be totally uninterested in her family, not want to make regular visits to her homeland, and drop all interest in her culture, is no girl I’d ever be interested in meeting. That would be totally creepy and I’d suspect ulterior motives.

    I think you’re right when you point out that lots of American guys have these unrealistic expectations of a “doll” — but I’ve never been in that category. Not by a long shot. I’d be creeped out by that kind of girl.

    A friend of mine who worked in the same office with me on the Hill was our office SysAdmin. He was a self-proclaimed “uberdork” and couldn’t get a date with a decent American chick to save his life. He was your typical computer geek — Star Trek fan, horrible dresser, not good-looking (about a 5-6), intellectual to a fault, extremely awkward in social situations, etc. But also very talented with languages and has 2 master’s degrees.

    Anyway, after our boss left Congress, he got a gig working in Moscow. Within 3 months of working there, he met a model-beautiful 19 year-old girl in a big nightclub, walked up to her, introduced himself. They had 2 marriage ceremonies, one in Moscow and one in upstate NY. She comes from a fairly well-off and well-connected Moscow family (actually remotely connected to Russian royalty), and had cousins living in San Francisco even before she met my friend. They attended both weddings. This couple have been married now since 1999.

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  102. Joe, I don’t think we disagree a whole lot. I know of one case that’s very similar to your SysAdmin friend. The guys in this case are decent and productive; certainly not losers, if not exactly exciting enough for many American girls. Still — they happened to be living in EE countires and met their wives in person, naturally, not through some internet service or such. Good for them.

    Like


  103. I’m Anonymous above – forgot to sign.

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  104. Days of Broken Arrows, the US has not made contacting foreign women illegal through dating sites. IMBRA simply puts additional conditions on making contact, like signing the equivalent of an affidavit (or certifying) that you’ve never been arrested or convicted for violent or sexual crimes. If you do that, it then becomes very easy to make contact. The problem many men find with IMBRA is that it puts a blanket label of “marriage brokers” on practically all dating sites that specialize in introducing foreign women to American men. However, the restrictions aren’t insurmountable, and now many of these websites make it fairly simple to comply with the IMBRA rules.

    Like


  105. on October 23, 2007 at 2:36 pm instantExcitement

    Joe T…I think the key point in your story is that your friend/co worker walked up and introduced himself to the girl. He made an approach! The first rule to meeting women in any country, I’ve met women in Western Europe and Asia, is you need to talk to them. It doesn’t seem so complicated, but hit some bars in DC, and you’ll see the guys staring and pointing at women instead of approaching them and starting a conversation. Even if you have the worst game in the world, if you approach a number of women, you are bound to find one that will at least converse with you. The SysAdmin, despite being uber geeky, a 5-6 had more game than 75% of the men I see in DC. A 5-6 will get laid more often than an 8-9 if he approaches, because for whatever reason it seems to be taboo for women to approach in the US.

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  106. […] The lower the number, the more likely you will find yourself surrounded by cats.  Unlike the male version of this test, here I have added a sliding scale to some of the questions because this better […]

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  107. The danger of the IMBRA law doesn’t necessarily show the danger of electing women, because many men seem to be sponsoring it too. The danger is electing Feminists and feminist-sympathizers. It is MEN who have bent over for the feminist demands of the last 40 years. All else being equal, the Republicans are less vile than the Democrats, but even they usually can’t fight.

    Any man who votes for Hillary loses all manhood status.

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  108. Jack, I am a liberal Democrat who worked 2 solid years at DNC headquarters, and even *I* get queasy at the thought of Hillary as president!

    Like


  109. “(C) kiss for a little bit then push her gently away and look distracted for a second.”

    Please, this is so much macho bullshit. I scored a five on this test and I do exceptionally well when it comes to the ladies.

    I can’t stand all this ‘Close the deal’ nonsense.

    Like


  110. I don’t like these quizzes of yours because they don’t take into consideration a LOT of factors.

    For example:
    11. How many friends do you have?
    0 to 3: -1 point
    4 to 20: 0 points
    over 20: +1 point

    I’d MUCH rather have a guy who has between 4-20 instead of over 20 because he’d have NO time for me if he had that many friends, also it says bad things about his personality that he has 20 friends. More friends usually means aquaintances and no close friends, I’d MUCH rather have a guy who has 5 close friends. Also, you’re way off on the IQ thing, smart = incredibly sexy.

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  111. I think IMBRA and similar laws aren’t just by feminists but also by conservative Christian men worried about exploitation.

    Jo:
    Yeah, but TOO smart is bad because your social skills go down. As Roissy points out, optimal is 110-130: smarter than average but not too smart. Trust me, my IQ cost me a point on his test, and I’m a total loser. 😉

    Also, looking at your blog, we see that, um, how to put this delicately:

    Your favorite movies include the Hitchiker’s Guide, Team America, and Shawn of the Dead? A movie about zombies? Really. Oh, and how else to put this, ‘I read lots of never ending SciFi Fantasy series?’
    Jo, this is pathetically clear. There is only one question I have left:

    Will you marry me?

    Like


  112. jo – i used a fairly liberal definition of friend. yeah, you’d be right to worry about a guy who had more than 20 *close* friends. but a guy who can call on 20+ people for a small favor is demonstrating alpha social skills.

    as for IQ, it’s been my experience dealing with all sorts of people that once a certain threshold is passed the benefits of added smarts are outweighed by the negatives of being too far out from the human norm. genius-level guys tend to have crippling social retardation.

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  113. Makes me wonder if it’s really a matter of bad genes or if it has to do with being too far from normal. IE, is an IQ of 120 just as damaging in, say, a backwoods area as an IQ of 150 is in Cambridge, MA.

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  114. Men, men. ….Men!!

    Stop yourselves. This survey was designed, not to determine your alpha status, but to determine your jerk factor.

    Seriously; a 25 year old barfly might fall for these tactics, but what about beautiful, kind, and intelligent women? That’s why we always say ‘all the good ones are married or gay’ (because the ones remaining are acting like this and admiring the higher jerk factor of brethren).

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  115. but to determine your jerk factor.

    there is some overlap between alpha and jerk in certain attraction-relevant character traits.

    but what about beautiful, kind, and intelligent women?

    there are beautiful, kind, and intelligent barflies you know.
    anyhow, it’s been my experience that the intelligent women “fall for” game the hardest.

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  116. Not so; intelligent women do not fall for that particular game. Let me give you an example. I’ve known “Steve” for 19 years. We date a few times a year, and some years have not dated at all. We’ve never had sex because he exhibits those very behaviours listed above and it’s too much of a turn-off. In fact, I caught a cab home in the middle of our last date after he used some of those tactics.

    Not holding grudges, I give him chances to redeem himself, but am only reminded of why I don’t pick up his calls for months on end after giving in and seeing him again.

    For the record, he’s quite dashing, great job, financially secure (but then, so am I). You could take the direction of query down the road toward my experiences, but they’re quite normal, and that would not include exposing myself to STDs with strangers. I don’t know any women who engage in those actions.

    I really believe you’ve limited your sample to barflies, nice and maybe more on the raunchy side of the behavioral spectrum.

    Maybe you could experiment in a different venue, something that presents more of a challenge where no alcohol is consumed and intellect is valued. Now THAT would be interesting.

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  117. Another question: I would prefer to marry a man with a flat stomach and cute face who earned 40K than a fat man with a face like the back of a bus who earned 200K. Personality being equal. How unusual does that make me?

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  118. […] the MV: height, age, attractiveness and career success are all boosts. Want to see your DMV? Click here for a quiz I found online. Posted in Dating, […]

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  119. You maintain a blog = -10 points

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  120. on August 14, 2008 at 6:41 pm Patrick Bateman

    Barely scraped by with a 15. Considering my career path so far, I will hit the $200k mark shortly after grad school in a high status job and my genetics tell me I’ll have thick hair into old age. I lost a point for being too smart. I can’t argue with this; It makes it much harder to communicate with the average dumb bitch. My girl majored in a hard science and is much smarter than most girls and even she annoys me sometimes with her stupid questions.

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  121. on August 14, 2008 at 6:56 pm Patrick Bateman

    jo
    Also, you’re way off on the IQ thing, smart = incredibly sexy.

    Maybe you’re on to something. Having a very high IQ tends to hurt the man’s ability to pick-up girls, but not his attractiveness when all other attributes are controlled for. I’ve had a few girls (including my first MILF) come on to me based primarily on intelligence.

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  122. Good test Roissy. It puts one in ones place. I’m a 13 and I’m banging a 22. I learned that my last girlfriend was a 36, which is lower than I expected. Also, I now know that:

    1. Becoming a business owner, having more friends and money will make me alpha, which seems right.

    2. The easiest way to improve will be through game behaviour. I guess I could easily add 5 points to those, putting me another tier higher.

    One problem: I will never play team sports or ride a motorcycle… So I’m out of heaven for ever? Could I not substitute with my hotornot 9.6 score, really hot body, and true mysticality? Is there only one kind of perfect alpha?

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