The Difference Between “Open” and “No Fucks Given” Relationships

True open relationships are different in kind from “I don’t give a fuck what you do on your own time” relationships. The former are verbally confirmed agreements to strange and psychologically toxic sexual and romantic arrangements that defy biosocial realities and are often designed to the benefit of weird lesser beta females and their ovulation cycles, and to the detriment of lesser beta males with scarcity mentalities and low T; the latter are emergent conditions of the player lifestyle where quantity of experience is valued higher than quality of experience, and short term trysts are valued higher than long term commitments.

I’ve known more than a few dyed in the wool cads who genuinely did not give two fucks (or pretended very convincingly not to give two fucks) about what their flings were doing out of sight. But these cads weren’t getting on bended knee for their lovers either. If that sort of commitment expectation was on the table, and they were considering it, then you can bet they’d drop their pretense of giving no fucks about the sexual fidelity of their girlfriends, (even if they themselves continued giving no fucks about their own caddish infidelity).





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  1. […] The Difference Between “Open” and “No Fucks Given” Relationships […]

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  2. Great timing of this post, In this no fucks given situation right now, we’ll see how it pans out. Your last sentence could not be more true and actually ran across my mind earlier today.

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    • absolutely right. in order to not give a fuck you really do have to not care. once you care, the fidelity is necessary. alternately, you decide to endure or pretend to enjoy pain of cuckoldry to hang on to what you can’t bear to lose. but those are about the only options.

      good luck to you btw, stay give-a-fuck-free

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      • it’s easy to not give a fuck, just don’t give a fuck. Got lots of hoez where I didn’t care wtf they did, even asked them about it. Totally didn’t give a flying fuck. They weren’t mine, didn’t want them as mine, would bang every now and then when I was inclined to. that is the IDGAF state.

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      • @ trav777

        sure. it’s easy to not give a fuck when you’re only banging hoes.
        game changes a little when you finally grow up and start dealing with higher quality women.

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      • all women are hoez to me until proven otherwise, bud.

        And NOTHING changes. YOU change when you start getting possessive and giving a fuck.

        I have a 21 year old gf in Portugal right now, tall Brazilian girl…gets hit on by everyone everywhere, even attractive women. How many times you think I’ve asked her if she’s fucking anyone while I’m not there? ZERO.

        I ASSUME she isn’t. Because I cannot be topped; it’s that simple. I am the guy who had a wife that Jay Leno rolled up on in the middle of the street. Do you think I sweated Jay? OMG it’s a TV star…hell no. I didn’t even increase my grip on her, just held her there and gave him a bemused response.

        We used to go backstage at shows, every fuckin rockstar had his hands on her at some point…think I got jealous? I smirked…(good luck with that dude). I ASSUMED she was coming with me, and she always did.

        NOTHING changes. If it’s a girl I don’t care about, I never ask nor even concern myself with who she might be fucking. This shit isn’t meaningful. You take what you want when you want it.

        Don’t get desperate no matter how hot she is, that is chick repellant. It hurts to throw chips in when you’re sitting on a busted hand, but sometimes, you HAVE TO CALL the bet. You have to think about being James Bond, who never lost, or even that guy in the Old Spice commercial where he keeps just smirking and the hawks are landing on him and he makes the dude with the Royal Flush fold. In your mind, think about hawks going caw caw on your shoulders, smirk and call that bitch’s raise.

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      • @trav777

        you had a wife who let other men put their hands on her while you were right there to watch. no wonder it’s easy for to not give a fuck. your women are skanks.

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  3. Absolutely true. If you decide a girl is worthy of a relationship or marriage, you have to communicate to her that her fidelity is non-negotiable. Any breach– even gratuitous flirting– can be grounds to end the relationship. And communicating that to her shows your value and convictions as a man.

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    • Careful..some of the crowd would call this “mate guarding.” That went over the heads of some..

      Another poster said it best…leering over your girl in a subway..vs setting firm boundaries of your expectations. Big difference.

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    • @Dagonet Good to have you back commenting. I had this situation with my crazy ex gf. I sensed and asked her who she’d gone out with for her birthday dinner after she’d been distancing herself.

      She mentioned a dude I know who is 1) wealthy 2) has cars and is fat and loserish 3) is seen as a “nice guy” by girls.

      My immediate reaction was to emotionally cut it off. I knew something was up.

      She sensed my anger and pre-emptively broke up.

      Guess what? He starts white knighting her, he’s going out with her etc etc. The true extent of the relationship was not known to me—but even the hint of her associating with this dickhead made me draw a line. I waffled because of one-it is. Then I discovered that during a period of possible reconciliation when she hovered me back into contact she suddenly canceled what would have been our first meet up after 3 months of isolation. She claimed she was having personal problems. I let it go suspecting something but not bringing it up. Then she started chasing me again. It was then I noticed a FB photo from a party held the night after the night she claimed all this drama prevented her from meeting me. It was a photo of her and this guy at a party. Since she was still in touch I told her point blank: fuck off. We’ve been estranged ever since.

      I write all this because now I’m in a situation where I’m banging several girls. Some of them may have bf’s. I don’t care. I have very little emotional investment so the time I spend banging these girls is good enough for me.

      We don’t talk about our personal relationships outside of the time we spend. It’s me being dominant. Fucking is mostly what we do when we meet up. I don’t care otherwise.

      If any of these were to develop into something it would have to be natural and without a “talk”….

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      • you did the RIGHT THING.

        Look, guys, not EVERY girl is going to magically sell herself into your slavery just because you applied “PUA game” BS on her. Cmon. SOME chicks are gonna go off and even cheat on alpha males- ANIMALS do this all the time. It’s part of the evolutionary strategy. You just punish that shit.

        Like the old story about the King whose wife had a lover hiding in the closet. The king had the closet bricked over with the guy in it. Either of the lovers’ acknowledgement of his presence would have resulted in painful death, so everyone pretended nobody was there and the King remodeled the place.

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      • @ trav777

        so let me get this straight

        you say you don’t give a fuck if one of your hoes is banging other guys because they are all just hoes anyway. cool, like i said, when you grow up (i’m talking about maturity here…not age) or…IF…you grow up and start dealing with quality women you would likely see things differently but whatever. if you want hoes, go for it. to each his own and hoes need love to.

        but claiming that giving a fuck is the same thing as weakness, jealousy and possessiveness is ridiculous and you know it.

        you just told walawala that you should punish disloyalty and told a story about a king who did just that. that wasn’t an example of weakness, jealousy, possessiveness or…not giving a fuck. that was an example of someone who DOES give a fuck and handles it like a man.

        so are you a king or a boy? are you someone who gets high quality women and can expect their loyalty? someone who has expectations and limitations and can punish when needed? or are you going to just remain a manchild forever? someone who lets his women get fondled by band members and banged by anyone they want. will you keep being someone who is too afraid to ask questions or lay down the law lest he might have to do something about it? that’s no way to live.

        and come on man, you keep giving all this explanation about how you know they aren’t seeing other men because you are the cat’s meow or whatever. if you didn’t give a fuck, you wouldn’t be adding that information at all. that’s just your way of protecting yourself. that’s normal but it’s also proof that you do in fact…give a fuck. like any sane man should.

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      • walawala, I have gotten the impression that you’re white, but the females you’re pursuing aren’t.

        That’s your problem. Things will get better if you stop.

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  4. Thanks for the clarification. The latter kind of relationship is more desirable.

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  5. Off topic: yesterday I stayed at a girl’s place, someone I had been seeing every now and then earlier this year, but hadn’t seen now for several months. So this was a restart of the booty calling.

    So, while we were sitting in the couch watching Britain’s Got Talent videos on her laptop, and doing some other stuff, she told me “No sex this first time, okay?”
    “Okay,” I said, naturally with no intention of sticking to that. But she got to do her no-slut thing. Then it wasn’t her fault when I went for it in bed later.

    The thing is, I was actually thinking of CH wisdom about how “When a girl says ‘no sex tonight’ on a date, she is thinking of having sex with you.” I would have done the same thing anyway, but it was a reminder that you’re not out in deep water if you’re going for it in that situation.

    For those who say that “this is all theory, you can’t think of it all in real life”, it’s like driving a car: You make the theory part of your own style. You practice and practice until following the theory in practice comes natural and requires little thought.

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    • I sometimes ask: “When was the first time you knew you wanted to fuck me?”

      It’s a great question. The girl always hesitates but it’s a strong way to establish the sexuality of the relationship and incept that she had that idea before meeting up with me at some point.

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      • But are you sure there is even such a point most of the time? Don’t they just gradually feel like doing it?

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      • @Arbiter There is a moment when they decide. Maybe they’re not even aware of it. But regardless of this, it’s a good question to get her hamster spinning. It assumes the sale. It frames the interaction as man and woman. it demonstrates a boldness–not afraid to ask tough questions. Also, it’s not like she can shit test you by saying “I didn’t fuck you”…or “I didn’t want to fuck you” after you’ve just banged her twice.

        Answers I’ve received include: “I hadn’t thought of it…maybe I was thinking after dinner?” Another was “When you kissed me in the bar…”

        Try it.

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      • when they first see you, man. Women decide that quickly…probably scent or something.

        If you talk to them in a date situation and never break eye contact, you will see the realization behind their eyes that they are GONNA fuck you at a certain point. It’s when she seems to unfocus a bit and get her own smirk because she’s distracted by the rush of it.

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  6. Our government is the biggest promoter of open relationships through income redistribution via the EBT market and Section Ape.

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    • Always remember: Destruction of the nuclear family is the U.S. government’s primary goal. After you realize this, everything else makes sense.

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  7. I’m not sure if this is the designated question area or not (if not tell me where this place is) but for now ill assume it is. I was wondering how you would accept compliments from a woman? When a woman says, “you’re cute” or “nice shorts, are those new?” or some other bullshit like that, what should I say back in order for her to have the most desirable image for myself. Ill let you know I have no lack of confidence, I will say what ever comes to my mind, but I was hoping you had something clutch to say (you usually do). Also this is just for casual at school interactions where I’m not trying to pick here up (at this specific time) but I’m definitely trying to form a desirable image for future interactions. Also if convenient you should post some more articles on things to say/do with little amounts of time, because I’m in high school and as you probably know already, you don’t have very much one on one time with the women, or a lot of time at all. So thanks in advance if you respond to this.

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    • “thanks”

      not being glib. that is often the best response to a girl complimenting you. say it without effusive gratitude. a quick smile is perfect.

      that’s how a confident man would respond to being complimented by a woman. he wouldn’t self-efface or doubt the girl’s sincerity, nor would he try to explain how he got to be so compliment-worthy.

      if the context is one in which gaming her is possible, and you want to enrich the convo beyond ‘thanks’, then you could tease her.

      “nice shorts, are those new?”

      “sure. don’t forget to check them out from the back.” [turn around like you’re modeling your butt for her]

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      • > “with little amounts of time” If he’s really a guy, and not just a gothette dyke, then he can stare at her eye-to-eye for a split second, break out in a big shit-eating grin, WINK, and then turn around and walk away. Fake it til you make it!

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      • I won’t be “winking” at any 22 yo hb9s any time soon..

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      • @CH “”if the context is one in which gaming her is possible, and you want to enrich the convo beyond ‘thanks’, then you could tease her.””

        This is a point which could have its own post. I’ve written a lot about “over-gaming”. I’ve found that depending on the context a tease may not always work with a certain type of girl and may just paint you as an obnoxious dick rather than a cocky funny one.

        When I first learned game everything was a quip. Now the “thanks” may be subcommunicated with a wink, a smile or brushing her cheek with your hand or some other kino. Over-gaming is my “blind-spot” which can be seen as overcompensating for nervousness. In a few cases girls have gotten truly annoyed at my push-back. “If you’re just going to make stupid jokes…” and then you have to reel it in without apologizing. it can be a jolt to my own confidence.

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      • > “I won’t be “winking” at any 22 yo hb9s any time soon..”

        ??? 22 yo == Sr in college or 1st yr grad/prof school. He’s in high school == 14 to 17/18 yo. Assuming “he” isn’t a gothette dyke. ???

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      • If brain freezes so badly that can’t even think to say “thanks” much less cleverer “don’t forget to check them out from the back” then just get abstract/metaphorical “kino” of quick EYE-TO-EYE stare and big forced smile/wink. Fake forced wink/smile til you make it genuine 2nd-nature wink/smile.

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      • Then work to push envelope of jerkboy 2nd-nature genuinely obnoxious abstract/metaphorical “kino”: Slow EYE-TO-EYE stare then quick EYE-TO-BOOB glance then back to EYE-TO-EYE contact and finally big shit-eating grin and wink.

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    • “Also if convenient… if you respond to this.” == BETA TALK!

      “in high school… the women…” == FEMINAZI TALK! They’re girls, not women. Are you a goth crew-cutted would-be dyke?

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    • smile and say thank you. It’s like scoring a touchdown, don’t act like it’s your first time there.

      I get told I look like a model now and again, I just smile and say thank you…never underestimate the importance of grace.

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  8. Meh. CH is still oversimplifying.

    Note the “radical honesty” comments from the previous post on the topic.

    Pimps have power over whores because they are the only men that accept the whores for what they are.

    All women have whore-nature. Accept it and you gain a peculiar amount of power over them.

    In my own case the relationship evolved to her being monogamous and me being free to do what I wanted. She simply stopped wanting to do anything with anyone else, but I went on to learn pickup.

    Most women are predominantly inclined to pair bond. Suppressing their whore nature by force doesn’t fully work. Accepting their whore nature makes them amazingly loyal. It makes whores turn over their earnings to a pimp even though they are hundreds of miles away in a legal brothel.

    I don’t completely understand it, and my game is nowhere near what good players can pull off, let alone pimps, but there is definitely something important there that is being glossed over by oversimplifications.

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    • ‘the relationship evolved to you being “free” to do what you wanted’

      What was it beforehand, weren’t you free to do what you wanted…this doesn’t smell right

      Sounds to me like eyes were or have been blinkered, by whom is the ?

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    • Oh yeah, you’re the guy calling yourself “the manliest in the world” because you are a “pimp”, meaning your girlfriend sleeps with other men. Yeah, that’s manly.

      And you’re using Black vocabulary. Are you Black by any chance? Or still too dumb to understand that you are not a “pimp” if you aren’t arranging for your girlfriend to have sex for money, and you then take the money?

      Only dumb Blacks would make “pimp” something to be proud of. For the rest of the world it’s the lowest of the low. If you would have said fifty years ago that Black culture promoted by Murray Rothstein’s MTV would make “pimp” and “gangster” things to aspire to be, you’d be accused of demonizing Blacks. But it’s hard to find something negative to say about Blacks, the rapist race and cannibal race, that doesn’t turn out to be true.

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  9. No fucks given “relationship” seems an oxymoron.
    Seems like the term would just be “associate”.
    Who’s that? Oh, just my associate. We fuck. Sometimes.

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  10. “True open relationships are different in kind from “I don’t give a fuck what you do on your own time” relationships. The former are verbally confirmed agreements to strange and psychologically toxic sexual and romantic arrangements that defy biosocial realities and are often designed to the benefit of weird lesser beta females and their ovulation cycles, and to the detriment of lesser beta males with scarcity mentalities and low T”

    You just admitted to not knowing any “true” open relationships. Your previous article was about the swingers and fetish scene.

    True open relationships are often the kind you would never even detect because couples do go around talking about it all the time, like the fetishists to.

    True open relationships often look just like any other middle class suburban family with kids and respectable careers.

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    • “True open relationships are often the kind you would never even detect because couples do go around talking about it all the time, like the fetishists to.

      True open relationships often look just like any other middle class suburban family with kids and respectable careers.”

      This. The fetishists who make it a loud & proud identity are like the blowhard players who spend the entire predrink to brag about all their conquests and try to convince everyone they’re the man and brag about how much pussy they’re gonna’ get at the bar tonight. The real player is the guy who silently shrugs and doesn’t care what you think of his skills, and just walks out the door with a girl to bone halfway through the night.

      The successful oLTRs, esp the one-sided ones, are invisible. I can pretty much guarantee that you know a few of them and just have no idea. oLTRs are are about discretion and can completely involve love and deep feelings for your Primary and literally just using other women for sex/fun on the side while still actually caring about your girl and planning a future with her.

      The fetishy semi-bisexual “let’s all have a sex swing party in our living room with our kids watching lololz” freakshow aren’t real oLTRs lol I realize this is just a definition thing, but it’s an important distinction to make.

      There’s an area between “no fucks given” and “crazy swingers club freakshow”, and that area is where real oLTRs are hiding.

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    • Middle class suburban couple with kids and careers….That’s also coincidentally the face of the ‘don’t fuck on a regular basis because she’s “tired”‘ household

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      • Well maybe you don’t do it for her sexually. The great thing about open is that she can find someone who does, and so can you, but you can joyfully stay together as a united couple building and raising your family.

        And sometimes outside sexual experience can open new windows of exploration between you two as a couple as well.

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  11. No fucks given is biologically impossible.
    There’s a reason emperors and kings and other powerful men had (and still have) harems and eunuchs.

    But maybe this applies primarily to “big man rulez” societies…
    I got the impression that it’s less so for whites in general.

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    • Interesting thing, harems. Research shows that way back in the Stone Age, only a minority of men would reproduce. Meaning they had harems. The reason monogamy won out was probably that such societies would make more men put in an effort to build for the future. Also, in colder climates the children needed a lot of training and food to survive, which a father who had children with many women couldn’t provide.

      So while we have a strong instinct to sleep with as many women as possible, it battles with another instinct that we developed, the instinct to see monogamy as the right thing to do. Women, of course, always had the instinct to stay with the best man they could find, and that didn’t need to change. Their sex drive is actually simpler. “Women are a mystery” is poetic nonsense meant to compliment women.

      As for harems in later times, note that they appear mostly in non-White societies. In Asia and of course in the cesspool villages in Africa where “it takes a village” because the men didn’t stay with the women they impregnated, and the offspring ran in packs. And still do.

      Chinese rulers having dozens or hundreds of wives. A curious throwback to earlier times. East Asia is always the almost-civilization, the only ones who could almost build something like Whites did. Eating with sticks when we invented the knife-fork combo back in Roman times. Making simple instruments and playing pleasant but forgettable pling-plong music while Germans had Mozart, Beethoven and Bach. Making good bows for archery, while Europeans developed ever more efficient rifles and cannon. Having conservative traditions, that went overboard with foot-binding and a refusal to improve, while Victorians had both traditions and innovation. And so on.

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      • “Eating with sticks when we invented the knife-fork combo… Playing pleasant pling plong music while Germans had Mozart.”

        Oh fuck, I just blew snot I was laughing so hard. I swear, this place has some of the best writing on the Interwebz.

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      • I have thought about this and realized that if the death rate for men was very high, then only a few men would be able to reproduce so in theory it may not have been harems per se. I really can’t speak authoritatively on this topic and wouldn’t want to either, evo psych and prehistoric theorizing are not interesting to me. Additionally, large populations of “bare branches” as in the Nien Rebellion have caused trouble for societies. Having little obligation and no hope for success with women leads one to potentially be more willing to risk your life and be violent. I personally think if we devolve towards harems or similarly, sluts being most of the population, it won’t be good for our era but some people still want their harems.

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      • Arbiter, even before the wildfire of Christianity was lit 2000 years ago, 1-Man/1-Woman was the DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC of Western Man and the White Race. If we lose 1-Man/1-Woman, then we become just another sorry orientalistic race of eunuchs, slaves, and cabana boys.

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      • Like


      • Hah, thanks, Thoroughbred. Chopsticks, seriously – Chinese students insist that they are more practical than a knife and fork. But I can eat perfectly well with chopsticks, and they really are not. If you look at documentaries where Asians eat rice, they hold up the bowl to the mouth to scoop the rice into their mouths with the sticks. Proof that it’s not more practical, but still they insist.

        Can’t even stop to think to use a spoon. But they have spoons, the thought must have occurred to them. They reject spoons for rice because of … tradition? This is the problem with Asians as well as Middle Easterners, and with Africans when they have disciplined societies. Always go overboard with the conservatism because they can’t tell what is needed and what isn’t. Kids beaten severely in school. Foot-binding and blackened teeth in China (because one emperor had rotten teeth and required the court to have teeth that looked the same, and then it became tradition). Religion to fanatic proportions in the Middle East and Africa. Yes, we have had fanaticism in Europe too, but they do it longer. What else? Kids in feudal China being arranged to marry without asking them. We’d arrange marriages in Europe too, but when the children were older, and they had a lot more say in the matter.

        Really, Europeans were the only ones doing conservatism well. Not perfect – no human system has escaped being misinterpreted or done to excess by the commoners – but good enough.

        But wen leftist teachers criticize conservatism, they will mention all the traditional and religious excess in the rest of the world, and use it to attack tradition in the West.

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      • Oh yes, more about China: nice clothes in feudal times – but not comparable to the variety of Western European dress. Consider the flowing French robes, the Victorian style, Prussian uniforms.

        They invented a written language – but it has one character per word and they have to be memorized separately. Not even adults know all the words. And they often have to explain what characters their name consists of when introducing themselves, as it cannot always be deduced. “It is spelled with the signs for maple and spice”.

        They invented courts of law – but with rigid systems where if a judge accused someone of a crime and he couldn’t be convicted, the judge was received the punishment that would have gone to the criminal. A sign of an antagonistic society where it’s family against family and it is assumed that a judge would use his position to attack another clan. This rule was not in use in all of China, but they had plenty of other strange rules elsewhere.

        Good architecture, but it stopped evolving and remained the same for thousands of years. While Europeans would find ways to build ever more advanced building, like the Gothic architecture that allowed for the construction of taller ceilings.

        China had literature, but how many classics are there? There’s Journey to the West, no doubt a good read. Not much else that can be called classic. Japan has The Tale of Genji. In the West there is Robinson Crusoe, The Canterbury Tales, The Song of Roland, Beowulf, Madame Bovary, Faust, the Iliad, the Odyssey, Romeo and Juliet, Hamlet, War and Peace, Candide, and so on and so on.

        East Asia had civilization and was far above barbarian peoples. But it stayed at a certain level and never got anywhere. It couldn’t bring Life forward, only repeat yesterday again tomorrow. And this we are taught in school to look up to as a deep culture, so much wiser than our “shallow and material” West. If you want to see shallow and material, visit any Asian country, or any non-Western country for that matter. They buy cheap things, cheap chairs and bikes that break easily and throw them away without thinking twice about it.

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      • on September 19, 2014 at 6:37 am gunslingergregi

        They buy cheap things, cheap chairs and bikes that break easily and throw them away without thinking twice about it.””””’

        where did you learn that
        in indo I can get anything repaired
        for any reason and they don’t have parts like they use fucking magic
        cell phone tv washer dvd player ac
        motors computers
        anything
        where is that knowledge base in the states
        our kids get out high school and can do what?
        work mcds

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      • > “where is that knowledge base in the states” YKW have mounted relentless scorched-earth all-out warfare against USA engineering and manufacturing and tinkering and building better mousetraps, aided and abetted by Bush/Clinton mercantilistic puppets. Want USA to be orientalistic nation of eunuchs and slaves and cabana boys.

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      • Some of what you say about China is true. However, China has far surpassed the West in technological prowess and level of civilization for most of recorded history. Read up on Chinese history, I think you will be amazed. The West did not begin to effectively compete with China until the 18th Century or so.

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      • Arbiter,

        East Asia as Ground Hog Day? That does make some sense…

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      • gunslingergregi

        where is that knowledge base in the states
        our kids get out high school and can do what?
        ——————————————————————————–

        They can do what you tell them to do.

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      • Asian intelligence is adaptive while European intelligence is creative.

        Nuff said.

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    • poor men couldn’t afford a harem…simple dudes got a wife and no more if they were doin ok

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  12. CH, in case you missed it, this woman posted in the open-relationship thread:

    https://twitter.com/shadalicious

    Poster child for your point, isn’t she? Credit goes to ManOfSteal for pointing out that she linked to her Twitter account.

    “from your skin everything comes back to my mouth, comes back to my heart, comes back to my body, #neruda”

    All the selfish cowards who swallow the anti-Western propaganda their teachers tell them in school turn to communist shits like Pablo Neruda for things to quote. And it’s all retarded crap that only an idiot would think was worth quoting. “The media promote him, so it must be clever! It must be!”

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  13. on September 18, 2014 at 4:28 pm The Living Tribunal

    Bullshit post.
    Who gets ‘hung up’ on a woman? Seriously, any woman?
    As soon as you go down that cul-de-sac, you’re dead.
    I’m 47, single. Never married. Don’t keep any women around longer than a few months,
    My friends/family: “you’re going to end up living and dying alone”

    Bring it on,

    It is what it is.

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    • Bullshit post.
      Who gets ‘hung up’ on a woman? Seriously, any woman?
      As soon as you go down that cul-de-sac, you’re dead.

      As long as people stop marrying, the people is dead.

      That’s how you live, okay. And I am single too. But you should be able to understand that people can be happy together. What it takes for a happy relationship is above all maturity.

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    • “Don’t keep any women around longer than a few months”

      don’t keep or…can’t keep?

      i’m guessing it’s the latter

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    • Dying alone, perhaps in a hospital of natural causes with pain medication, is better than 95% of deaths throughout history.

      Picturing yourself dying alone, and being totally OK with it at your core, is excellent inner game. Many men have put up with sluts, cunts, shrews, and worse for fear of dying alone. Once this fear is controlled and eradicated, you are no longer a slave grabbing for even the flimsiest lifeboats. You can begin to set your own terms and then walk freely if they are not met.

      Like


      • This. My father died in my brother’s home. Alone. He sustained a marriage and raised 3 men, albeit withstanding and educating us about the Fembot message. I talked with him a month before, and he was happy. He was happy to die in the current position he was in. The cancer caused him to hallucinate, and these hallucinations became people(spirits, demons) that he had conversations with. The look of contentment on his face, the overwhelming spirit of his acceptance of Death, and his attitude about the whole situation, caused me to begin to understand that we ALL die alone. Better to accept the cards that Fate deals you, and stop listening to the shrill voices of contemptuous, useless suckers who would tell us otherwise.

        Like


      • “My father died in my brother’s home. Alone. He sustained a marriage and raised 3 men”

        i think you’re taking it too literally. when people talk about dying alone they aren’t saying that they want half a dozen people standing in the room with them when they die. that’s not my interpretation anyway.

        i think most people mean it in a general sense. ie: growing old without ever having the joy of family or close relationships.

        your father may have technically died alone but you said he was in your brother’s home and he sustained a marriage and raised 3 men. that isn’t the same thing as a man who dies alone in a nursing home because he doesn’t have a son to stay with. someone who has no one to miss him or wish he were still around. that’s what dying alone is.

        Like


    • no kids, no race, no species.

      Like


  14. just had a girl from my harem (who is annoyed that i havent asked her to hang out in a few weeks) try to pull a jealousy shit test on me by saying that she is wearing a tight dress out at the weekend and who knows what attention she will get…

    no response, zero fucks given

    by the way im convinced julian from rsd reads your blog, that guys game is getting darker by the day ha

    Like


  15. Since the conversation is continued over here, I’m going to post a few comments from Arbiter from you other blog article about open relationships here and respond to them. This might get long, so pardon me in advance, but I think there are a few key elements missing from a lot of readers understanding of “open”.

    Arbiter

    “Interesting to see Z. and Dirk Johanson both differentiate between swinging and open relationships, but taking opposite positions in their comments.

    To Z., polyamory is “radical honest” while swinging is bacchanalia. He wants a “genuine loving network”, not “focus on sex”. (At this point we don’t need to ask for a picture. )

    Dirk Johanson writes that swinging is cool, while polyamory is “yuck!” because of the weirdness in trying to make a relationship with several people involved.

    If you’d have to choose between the two I would have to agree with Dirk. At least in swinging you leave the place and go home as a couple. In “polyamory” there are some truly dark hidden motives going on, with one partner putting up with it because he/she can’t find anything better, and it’s with you around the clock.

    Therapists could probably give us more information if the media didn’t have an interest in hiding the effects of “alternative lifestyles” and acted like the subcultures’ hired promoters.”

    I am not a player. Never have been. I like being in relationships. I also like being STI free. The swingers scene and the fetish underground are the best places for playboys. Have at it! (However like others have mentioned, I too noticed that a large percentage of people professing such are on the heavier and lesser attractive side, make of that what you will.)

    At the same time why do we (as a people) feel the need to stop ourselves from loving someone else just because we love another person? Why can’t I love my woman and if in the natural course of living I meet another woman who I really vibe with, why can’t I love her too? If we truly love our partners don’t we want to see them happy, loving, big hearted and generous with their affections?

    ” polyamory is “yuck!” because of the weirdness in trying to make a relationship with several people involved.”

    Well you see, when I was in an open relationship it wasn’t like we were “trying” to do anything. We were just flowing with the river of life. We weren’t looking, or on the prowl, but when we met people we really connected with, well, we connected with them. It was the most natural thing in the world.

    Now, I did give two examples of young couples who tried to open their marriages up and it failed and ended in divorce.
    1. they were young immature kids in their 20s
    2. open was an effort to prevent divorce once the women caught their men cheating
    3. the husbands probably originally assumed their wives would not take the bait, that they would allow their husbands to be poly while they remained mono
    4. all in all, their attempts at open were not coming from a place of honesty and joy but deceit and fear

    Of the successful open couples I know, they are older and they are committed to their family unit first and foremost. As Mr. and Mrs. Carl and Kenya Stevens always say, you have to get your monogamy on point before you can successfully navigate poly. That doesn’t mean you have to get married first or you can’t go into a marriage open from the get-go, but the unit has to be established and you must be committed to loving your partner and building a life with him or her.

    I really appreciate the work these two are doing in saving marriages, preventing divorce and keeping families in tact.

    Like


    • At the same time why do we (as a people) feel the need to stop ourselves from loving someone else just because we love another person?

      You can love two women, literature is full of examples of that so it has probably happened many times. But loving them and living a life with both of them are two different things.

      Anyway, whatever your situation, CH’s analysis of this open-relationship thing is no doubt dead right in the vast majority of cases. And I think even in those cases where it feels like there are no problems, down the road there will be.

      It’s just like cheating on a spouse. Even if the two cheaters feel like they have it under control, it can’t go on. They’ll either quit it before the trouble starts, or there will be trouble.

      Like


  16. PS: “Therapists could probably give us more information if the media didn’t have an interest in hiding the effects of “alternative lifestyles” and acted like the subcultures’ hired promoters.”

    Arbiter, I wasn’t away the media was promoting open marriage. I’ve not seen it. If anything I only see every movie and every show portraying monogamy as the ideal (including for homosexuals) and drama around cheating, and of course, divorce when you get cheated on.

    I would love to see an alternative portrayal but I never do.

    Like


    • No, not in TV shows. But newspapers and magazines writing charming little stories about people “living alternative lifestyles”, that’s what I’m getting at. It all fits with the general rule, that “you can do whatever you like as long as you’re not hurting anyone else!”, a rule that hurts indirectly by hurting all of society, as the media well know. And by hurting those involved eventually, as the journalists well know.

      Like


    • There is a common “got her groove back” and juggling multiple men vibe in many movies. Esp Nicholas sparks stuff. That guy loves feeding the dream girls have of 2 guys jockeying over her. Double bonus points if the female role is a single mom

      Hence the notebook is like the end all be all romance movie…the alpha male turns full on pathetic beta under her charms. Girls get off on the “idea” that they too can have this effect on a man, has nothing to do with the romance I don’t think. It’s not his character or anything like who he is as a man..that’s not even the allure of the film for them.

      Almost always the scenario involves 3 people. Never just 2. Rarely is it a guy picking between 2 girls, if so..girl #2 is a “homely” girl next door type with a heart of gold, and girl #1 is hot as hell but she’s a psycho bitch. The feel by the conclusion is the man has “upgraded.” Could be overthinking it but Hollywood Weirds me out nowadays post red pill awareness

      Like


      • To add…believe this is why twilight is huge. Content and writing blows hard…but this boring bleh hb6 has 2 top dog alphas fighting over her and she’s such a cunt that she “can’t decide” for like 5 books/movies. Of course chicks are gonna buy the fugg outta this garbage.

        Who hasn’t sat thru one of these types of films and heard “I wish I could find a love like that”…I’m thinking, that’s the shittiest relationship I’ve ever seen and wouldn’t tolerate it for a second much less put a ring on it

        Like


  17. I don’t want to spam this thread with videos, but she does a pretty good job of explaining how “open relationship” means “radical honesty” where you are sharing everything about yourself with your partner, not hiding anything, not any part of you, even the parts you think your partner can’t handle. She also talks about non-sexual and sexual open relationships. She makes some really good points in this video and its made clear that open relationship is not *just* about sex, and sometimes not at all. Sometimes you want something that your partner is incapable of giving because they have a totally different type of personality. And “communication” may not change that.

    If its *just* sex you want, the swingers clubs are there. But open relationship is really something else, something deeper.

    Like


    • “Sometimes you want something (non-sexual) that your partner is incapable of giving because they have a totally different type of personality.”

      This is called “friends” and “family”.

      Don’t listen to (relationship) ‘wisdom’ from women.

      Like


  18. Zombie Shane, Yareally:

    You both passionately advocate your vision of the good life and you’ve come to be seen as messengers of two conflicting ways of living.

    Can each of you tell us, what do you offer men?

    Like


  19. Question/interesting note:
    I game almost all the girls I work with, not so much out of interest, but to have fun and be prepared if they show interest. One recently went to a manager about something I did, which was pretty innocuous, but maybe overdone. What I found interesting is that she apparently didnt mention the time I lightly pulled her hair, which I would think is more invasive.

    Now the question is, what the hell do I do about this? It sounded like a harassment accusation, but the manager made clear it really wasnt or was on the fence. What do you do when a girl turns sour on you like this? Ignore her? Go cold on her? Act like it never happened, but maybe delete specific actions from the armory due to ineffectiveness? It was awkward as hell, but not as bad as I thought when the manager started to get into it.

    I know I screwed up some shit regarding my wishy-washy confidence and not taking our friendship/relationship outside of work so we could develop it more, but even so. It seems just one specific thing weirded her out, while everything else is fine. Unless it was the straw that broke the camels back.

    Like


    • This is the o;d “dont shit where you eat” maxim. I also game chicks at work, but I keep it VERY light and flirty; you need to keep the heavy artillery in base camp when you are in a professional setting.

      I’ve got hot colleagues to meet me for drinks after work (matter of fact ive got one on Saturday, although shes kinda meh). Try not to do it in a happy hour setting with other co-workers; this basically extends the office environment, and although you have a bit more leeway, conditions still aren’t optimal for an all out assault. You can use this to arrange a future meetup so you can maneuver without interference from Bob from accounting.

      Get them to meet you on the weekend at a setting you are comfortable with without any work strings attached. Then you can fire at will; and they can’t do shit if they decide to go hard and deploy a bitch shield because it was a personal engagement.

      Like


    • Oh and yes I would completely ignore her if you want to keep your job. Act like nothing happened, but just be completely stonefaced around her.

      Like


    • stay the fuck away from her and stop doing what you’re doing.

      Women will eventually gang up on you and use the corporate apparatus to get you fired. They have brain farts, women do, where they want to kill people and in that moment, she’ll decide you’re evil and run your ass out. The other 99.9% of the day she may be fine but it’s that moment that women have that fucks it all up.

      Seriously, they are subject to random transients in their brains or something, like a radio popping from interference. They have no affect regulation, they flip, there’s a demon in there.

      I got shitcanned from a gig by women and I didn’t really even do shit, nothing at all like you’ve described. Young, pretty, educated. They will fuck you in the ass without compunction in that moment.

      These are girls that would go from eye fucking me in the first meeting we were in together, seriously like every time I look over she’s staring at me, to will not acknowledge existence…and I never said a single word to them, much less “game” or anything of the kind.

      There are office rumor mills and office vendettas and if you rub a bitch the wrong way, they will blast you because they CAN. They will NEVER face you like a man would, they will sniper your ass.

      You’re on notice already- if someone else complains, you’re history. You’re there to work, be asexual, don’t shit where you eat. Fuck them if they don’t like it.

      Like


      • Trav,

        “These are girls that would go from eye fucking me in the first meeting we were in together, seriously like every time I look over she’s staring at me, to will not acknowledge existence…and I never said a single word to them, much less “game” or anything of the kind.”

        Exact same shit happened to me. Eye fucking galore, actually open flirting, touching, etc. Got the chick’s number, confirmed a meetup, then flake of course. Now its a weird combo of coldness/indifference, staring in meetings, random IM’s for contrived reasons, like questions she can easily find answers to without my help, extremely nervous body language. I think she is just fishing for attention/validaton. A shame because she is a smokeshow. Fucking broads.

        But yeah in general trying to game coworkers can be death professionally. Sometimes risk outweighs reward but pick your spots.

        Like


      • in my case, I was a contractor, and very close to twice their age. Maybe it was their reaction to their own attraction, no clue. Never bothered to analyze it that deeply. There was one girl who told a guy there who ended up bein buds with me “I DO NOT like Travis.” This is a girl I never said a word to or otherwise had any interaction with. This company was vaguely cult-like and I was a sub, an outsider. That had a lot to do with it.

        But these girls are like the water at 20,000 Leagues ride at Disneyworld…it sure looks nice and refreshing, but touch that shit and it will melt your skin off.

        Hot girls at work are TOXIC. The complaint went through their “channels” and they never gave me so much as an inkling of what it was about nor any opportunity to rebut or defend. Just 2 weeks and out over a fuckin bitch who I never did jack to.

        You have to stay the hell away from them. I am still in the same building on my new gig and the guys I am with now, older guys, say shit like “i wish I worked with a lot of beautiful women.” I tell them no you do not. Those girls will stab you in the back in the blink of an eye.

        Like


      • This. Had same thing happen a few times to me. Girls would show IOIs, Sometimes we’d hang out after work but I didn’t escalate because I know better. Even when I tried to keep it platonic these bitches backstabbed me. One to my boss, the other to a coworker who happened to be a good friend and told me all about it.

        My theory is they want to fuck you and when we hesitate their hampsters go nuts and they want revenge. Girls being pack creatures with no courage and who let other people fight their battles go to other guys, bosses, or HR (ruled by chicks) to bring you down.

        Molon labe.

        Like


      • Pretty much what I expected. This sucks because she was one of my better friends there. I think the most natural feeling I get is to go ice cold on her. But I also feel like that might backfire. Maybe I should just ignore it and not concern myself with her except for work purposes as necessary.

        I understand the dont shit where you eat thing, and sometimes I feel that way. However, I see people do it all the time. It happens all the time. I see couples, I see flings, I hear stories.

        But yall are definitely right about how not being fast enough and hesitating. I did that with another girl who was giving massive amounts of IOIs. We were in the office once, alone, with no superiors in the building (she and I were the superiors), and she started playing around. I had no idea how to deal with here then, being a complete noob, and didnt do anything. Whenever I asked her to hang out, she would rebuff me. Its clear now she wanted to mess around and get serious. I wasnt even trying to take it slow. I knew what I was planning to do when we got together outside of work. But she probably thought it would end up another disappointment. A little bit after she left the job, we had a fight, and stopped talking. Shes been polluting mutual friendships ever since, possibly including the above. Its exactly what Marko said: “My theory is they want to fuck you and when we hesitate their hampsters go nuts and they want revenge.”

        And yet its this very crap about accusations that makes us hesitate. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

        The manager did note that she came to him and didnt go to HR or the store manager. He is the most social and friendly manager. Maybe that was the free pass I get and next time whoever it is will go to an official channel. This is a podunk job that I really shouldnt even be in, so I dont really care what happens as long as its not legal. If I get asked to leave, then oh well. I have been wanting to move away anyway, I just havent had all my ducks in a row yet. But if I had to, I have the ability to get out of Dodge.

        I kind of want to just go cold and focus on work, but I see these couples all the time and either that or casual, I think “why cant I do that too?”

        Like


      • I should also add that this all happened after a sub-beta upstaged me by asking her to hang out. Maybe she thought that I am talking the talk, but not walking the walk, while this complete inept loser is bumbling around and walking the walk.

        This all makes a good argument that workplaces should be segregated or that women shouldnt even be in the working environment. The latter probably wouldnt work too well, and women-only workplaces have proven dismal failures.

        Like


  20. @PA
    “what do you offer men?”

    Like


    • Also, hedonism and nihilism.

      Like


    • YaReally’s pleasures are not a celebration of life … but an escape from it.

      Like


      • “YaReally’s pleasures are not a celebration of life … but an escape from it.”

        sad isn’t it? and his groupies are all here clinging to his every word. even sadder.

        but it makes sense. people who are unable to reach great heights in life will always choose idols who have low standards. it makes them feel okay about their own failures.

        and it’s comforting for people to hear stories of others who are happy beyond belief while living a shallow existence that is devoid of any real substance or quality. it’s a lie of course but a lie that many people are all too willing to believe because it’s…easier.

        Like


      • “sad isn’t it? and his groupies are all here clinging to his every word. even sadder.”

        Jesus what happened to this place while I was gone? Who let all these fucking vaginas take over? Where did the guys who like to swing their dicks at poon go? Am I on fucking Jezebel now?

        Like


      • “Jesus what happened to this place while I was gone? Who let all these fucking vaginas take over? Where did the guys who like to swing their dicks at poon go? Am I on fucking Jezebel now?”

        Site appeals to trad cons and libertines. Not exactly best friends.

        Trad cons have their own special brand of delusion and wish they had the power by the government to simply make girls obey them.

        The problem with that is that it worked but women never really liked the men they with in the past. Their wife simply was more or less stuck with them because of society, they didn’t really want to be there.

        Current society is a curse and a blessing in that you are forced to sink or swim. Much better to know the truth then be a blissful idiot.

        Like


      • Where did the guys who like to swing their dicks at poon go?

        You can do better.

        Like


  21. It would be harder for me to give no fucks if STDs weren’t a possibility. Sluts with potential HSV or HIV really impact my outcome independence.

    Like


    • It’s a scourge. Forcing us to wear condoms, which is like eating food with all the flavor gone. It will take away your hunger but that’s it.

      Though where I live the only ones who have HIV are junkies, Africans and homosexuals, as statistics show. Not many HIV cases in proportion to the population. I date nice college-educated girls who don’t move in the wrong circles, so I don’t worry about STDs, though.

      Would that I could find a nice girl who is on the pill so we could do it rubber free. But it seems that even if they don’t worry about disease, they don’t want to go through the trouble of taking pills, with the possible side effects of that. (Even though the pills today are nothing like the strong pills a couple of decades ago.) It’s more convenient for them to make the guy wear a condom instead. What do they care about the loss of sensation? They know a guy will take it if the alternative is no sex.

      Bring on the VR/sexbots already. Or some wonder drugs that remove all STDs and include a birth-control pill for men.

      Like


      • that’s pretty much the only people with HIV everywhere. If you look at CDC data, assuming they haven’t sanitized it, sleep with Asians and whites at will, but just do the jungle fever check on a white girl and dump her if she turns positive. Avoid blacks.

        Like


    • 22yo Hb9s with HIV? Dude that sounds like an excuse

      Probably more likely to get run over by a runaway subway car

      Like


      • That’s the issue – I rarely go after 22 year old HB 9s. So far it’s been mostly 7ville for me and they tend to sleep around more than the upper echelon babes

        Like


  22. What does love look like?

    For one example, it’s in every frame of THIS VIDEO.

    Like


  23. Tindergirl – we haven’t met up yet. Just been texting back and forth

    Her: Can I ask you a question? No judgement
    Me: ask away
    Her: How many girls do you see in a week?
    Me: Define “see”
    Her: Meet up with? For sex reasons?

    Obviously I want to stay ambiguous while maintaining the air of amused mastry

    I’m thinking
    1) Define “sex”

    or 2) So you think I’m a manwhore

    Like


  24. So is GQ simply Cosmo in drab now, or did they discover their readership is mostly moobs?

    Like


  25. A totally honest alpha-harem style oLTR is like……the ultimate in game. Props to the guys here who have it like that.

    I’ve only gotten to the point of being able to juggle a few FB’s. What I’ve learned this year is that a laissez-faire approach works best for me: attract, sex up, then always be waiting for her to initiate. While you wait, hunt for new poon, but whatever you do —- ball is in her court, always. So, my “trick” to not clinging to any of them or becoming emotionally dependent is just to keep myself focused on whatever pursuit I have going. Right now it’s split between my career and my fitness.

    Unfortunately, I can’t go back. If I wanted to I could easily score a 6 every time I go out. But I mean….once a man tastes the good life, he’s cursed. Especially when he’s a man who isn’t supposed to have the nice things. So until my game gets tight enough to ensure a consistent lock on 8’s every time I go out, I have these external “crutches” to rely on — the focus on other shit.

    Like


    • Scray: “Unfortunately, I can’t go back. If I wanted to I could easily score a 6 every time I go out. But I mean….once a man tastes the good life, he’s cursed.”

      Quite true. What’s the answer? There is no answer.

      Well, more accurately, there is no particularly good answer. Each possibility has major, major downsides.

      Probably, with an emphasis on the word probably, the best choice for most guys is to cash in one’s chips and commit to a really great girl. There are still some out there. But even then, she gets old, and unless you’ve got a really great connection…may well end up as far more trouble than she’s worth. So there are definite downsides to this choice, even if all goes as well as can reasonably be expected. Further, there is the risk of even greater downsides. Calamitous downsides.

      The other main option is to just keep playing the field, but eventually this starts getting harder and harder, at least for the vast majority of even high flying alphas. Just as many women think that they are going to be hot forever – and they are all wrong – you see at least some of the same delusion in alpha males. It’s certainly true that an alpha’s window of opportunity can be far, far greater than the typical chick’s, but the stars have to be really aligned (money, health, fitness, genetics).

      For most middle aged guys, the stars are not so aligned. Most of the men that you see scoring left and right in their twenties aren’t going to be doing that in the decades to follow. At least, they’re not going to be getting the quality that they used to bring in. That’s the “cursed” part you mentioned – they’ll mostly be banging chicks that their 25 year old selves wouldn’t have looked twice at. There will of course be exceptions to this but, well, they are exceptions.

      And, unless you’re a psychopath, how emotionally sustainable is it to spend literally decades chasing and pounding new vag every weekend, while continually avoiding real commitment? How physically sustainable is that, just in terms of health? What seemed awesome at age 25 may seem a little worn at 35, not to mention beyond. Something for a young man to consider. A lot to be said for liquor and whores. This option doesn’t get nearly the good press that it deserves. Of course, the storied downsides of this choice require no further explanation. They are obvious, and the stuff of legend.

      The take away from all of this is that every choice has its cost, and a steep one at that. There is no option without a hefty price tag. None of us are getting out of this thing alive, as the saying goes.

      Whatever you do, choose well. Be honest with yourself about the cost, and the “man up” part is simply a conscious willingness to pay that price, and not to whine and cry about it later.

      If you’re white, I’ll go ahead and encourage the Shane “putting some buns in the oven” approach. Your life will very possibly end up fucked, but even if it does, just think of it as taking one for Team White. Do you really have anything better to do, you special unique snowflake, you?

      And who knows, if you choose wisely, and end up with a genuinely good-hearted white girl, it’s at least possible that you won’t even end up regretting your decision. Stranger things have happened, or so I’m told.

      But again, a lot to be said for liquor and whores. Haven’t made my final choice, but…

      …probably best to find a good-hearted white girl and put some buns in the oven. (Shane, your repetition worked!)

      Like


      • Well I have to disagree with this sentiment:

        “For most middle aged guys, the stars are not so aligned. Most of the men that you see scoring left and right in their twenties aren’t going to be doing that in the decades to follow. At least, they’re not going to be getting the quality that they used to bring in. That’s the “cursed” part you mentioned – they’ll mostly be banging chicks that their 25 year old selves wouldn’t have looked twice at. There will of course be exceptions to this but, well, they are exceptions.

        And, unless you’re a psychopath, how emotionally sustainable is it to spend literally decades chasing and pounding new vag every weekend, while continually avoiding real commitment? How physically sustainable is that, just in terms of health? What seemed awesome at age 25 may seem a little worn at 35, not to mention beyond.”

        As a man your options expand logorythmicly as you age, assuming you can maintain an Alpha frame. That is really it. I am 47. Physically I am in good shape for my age but a shadow of my 21 year old self. My range then was pretty girls 18 to 25. As an interesting, passionate and authentic 47 year old, I have a massive range. Still pretty 22 year olds all the way to pretty 50 year olds… Really it’s just shocking to go out sometimes, there is so much opportunity out there.

        My 21 year old self, while objectively far better looking, could not compete at all with me on the real high value stuff to women, social status, frame, experience, how to handle women etc. Girls are not long haired men, they don’t look at male looks the same we we do at their looks.

        And thinking you have to chase “whores” late at night in bars is just false. Day game, girls are everywhere… you just need to be in a place that they are. That is a killer of game, no targets! This can be engineered in your favor.

        The girls are really, really just looking for a guy with some high value to latch on to. And big fella that is ALL girls and ALL the time (thanks hypergamy). You just need to be that high value guy.

        If anything it gets easier, because there is not a lot for let’s say a 27 year old 8. Most of the men she meets her age will not be able to present beyond a good looking guy and most older guys are going to be low value or in relationships or married, or in a big metro, gay. I hear this all the time from girls, there are no good guys…

        If you want to have kids, I think you need to pick one and commit to her (but not be forced exclusive), for the sake of raising a stellar family… the unit needs stability. If you don’t want to have kids, don’t kid yourselves, your value is only going to go up up up if you keep an alpha frame. Don’t sell short from a scarcity mind set.

        Like


      • Sentient: “As an interesting, passionate and authentic 47 year old, I have a massive range.”

        That’s great, but you are misunderstanding my post. I never said men couldn’t remain alpha into middle age. Some clearly do, it’s just that they are the exception, not the rule.

        Have you seen some of the loser young guys who have cute girls on their arms? Not “alpha” young guys either, just young guys who are middling to good. It takes a particularly high value middle aged man to do that. It takes a very, very high value middle aged man to get what I routinely pulled in my youth, and I was probably a lesser alpha/greater beta in high school and college, moving up to true alpha later. I moved up, but most of the movement I observed was heading in the other direction, as my cohort moved into their 30’s and 40’s.

        Anecdotal evidence, I know, but I went to school (high school, college) with plenty of guys who had quite attractive girlfriends. No way could most of them pull that now, when they are in their 30’s and 40’s. On the other hand, there are a few who can do as well or even better, but it’s not the norm. There is a paradox here: for the middle aged man who is alpha, things are in fact probably easier for him than when he was younger. It’s just that it’s harder to be alpha. It’s a game of musical chairs where eventually the alpha loses his seat.

        Sentient: “The girls are really, really just looking for a guy with some high value to latch on to.”

        Absolutely. Problem is, most middle aged men aren’t capable of being high value. At least, not high value enough to consistently attract hot women that are still in their prime. And even the minority that can will tend to cash in their chips at some point. Most guys aren’t going to find it terribly fulfilling to spend decade after decade alley catting every weekend. Or during the day, whatever (most high value middle aged guys are pretty busy during the day).

        Sentient: “If anything it gets easier, because there is not a lot for let’s say a 27 year old 8.”

        Show me a girl that “there is not a lot for,” and I’ll show you a girl that is fading in beauty, or has already hit the wall. There is always “a lot” for true hotties. Only a small minority of middle aged men can attract such women. A bigger minority of young men can attract them. A young greater beta can probably pull as well or better than a middle aged greater alpha. Certainly a young lesser alpha can.

        Point being, there is a fall off with age. It may be easier on the middle aged alphas, but that’s at least in part because there are fewer and fewer men that qualify as such.

        Why do hotties get so much attention? Because they are a fairly rare commodity. Most women are old and/or unattractive, so the attention is lavished on the hottie minority. Why do middle aged alphas do well? Same thing: because they are rare.

        It’s sort of like when people hear that middle class people a few generations ago often had numerous household servants, and wish that they were in such a situation. But the odds are better that they would not have been the master of the house, but rather one of the servants. Everybody thinks that they are going to end up in the successful minority, but by definition few do.

        In any event, I do agree that the middle aged alpha can do particularly well with late 20’s women. That’s probably his best market niche. Some can score younger, but generally find it more trouble than it’s worth. The vast majority of very young girls (18-23) are as idiotic as they are hot. A true middle aged alpha is not likely to put up with their nonsense.

        In any event, I don’t particularly disagree with your post, Sentient, it’s just that it doesn’t at all refute mine. Can some middle aged guys flourish? Absolutely. Glad to hear that you are one of them.

        My point was simply that every choice has major downsides and serious costs – there is no easy way out. The young guys who are just getting started need to be aware of these costs and understand that, no matter what choice is made, there is a very real bill attached. It is folly to imagine that life is one grand party, and there is nothing but good times ahead, so long as one maintains his frame. Life is a lot more complicated than that. A man is better off going in with full awareness rather than with his eyes wide shut. Whatever cost comes with your choice, be prepared to pay it. And no matter what choice is made, I guarantee the bill is in the post. It’s out there, and it’s on the way.

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      • “I do agree that the middle aged alpha can do particularly well with late 20’s women.”

        i agree with that and here’s my two cents.

        a big age difference like that is fine for the short term but if a guy is looking for longevity with someone ie: marriage and kids, that is pretty unrealistic.

        with a huge age difference like that, he would have to game hard for the rest of his life just to keep her. a guy can do that sure but i think a lot of us don’t see the benefit in doing that when a nice decent girl can make us just as happy without all the stress. that’s why most of us will happily settle for a nice HB7 or an HB8 instead of always aiming for HB10s.

        a much younger girl for a middle aged man is the same as an HB10 for most guys. there is no letting yourself slip or moving into beta mode for awhile. and even if he is the biggest alpha that a middle aged man can possibly be, she’ll still probably cheat or leave him at some point anyway because she’ll be resentful that he’s old and dying while she has so many years ahead of her. you see that more often than not.

        we hear all these stories of older guys with much younger women but they are the exceptions to the rule like you said and even if it does happen, it rarely…if ever, lasts. you might be able to get a much a younger woman for awhile but the odds that you’ll keep her long term are very very slim. even if you knock her up.

        listen to the guys on here. many of them tout their success with much younger women but they aren’t keeping them around or having LTRs with them, are they? they’ll say it’s by their own choice because they don’t want LTRs but most men, if they are honest, will admit that having the love of one good beautiful woman trumps a lifetime of meaningless hook ups any day.

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      • Blart, you make some fair points. I’d just say that there is no doubt that big age gaps can work, but that they are also quite risky. If the girl is at all a “party girl”…good luck. The guy is going to need it, if he marries her. On the other hand, if she is the shy, nester type, maybe it can work.

        There is another point that guys need to understand. I wish I had gotten this advice twenty years ago, though honestly I doubt that I would have acted upon it and done anything differently. After all, cads must be true to their nature, I suppose, and I have been true! But for anyone who might be able to act upon it, here it is, for free:

        No matter how many girls you date/bang, when all is said and done, only a few will matter. Maybe only one. Everyone else is background noise. In time, you’ll literally forget almost all of them, as they are utterly irrelevant to anything you care about in life. But there will be a few Great Ones (yes, I’m stealing that from A Bronx Tale). You never forget them. Those are the ones you miss. Those are the ones that haunt!

        Talk to a guy who’s banged two hundred girls, and ask him which ones were really important to him. He’ll probably give three names. Maybe a couple more, maybe a couple less. I could give five names that matter to me, but two stand out the most. Everything else is mere clutter. What the hell was her name? Who cares!

        And here’s the bad news: chronologically, his top names will probably be mostly concentrated in the first ten percent, maybe twenty percent, of those conquests.

        Something to think about. We often make the most intense connections when we are too immature to appreciate them, and most cavalier at throwing them aside. There is a paradox in there, somewhere, and also, I think, a lesson.

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      • “We often make the most intense connections when we are too immature to appreciate them, and most cavalier at throwing them aside. There is a paradox in there, somewhere, and also, I think, a lesson.”

        agreed.

        and that immaturity isn’t always when we are young. it can be a girl we discard as an adult because the timing seems wrong or she doesn’t fit into our plans.

        i lost a great girl that way and thought i was doing the right thing by letting her go. she came into my life unexpectedly at the worst possible time. i had all these things i wanted to accomplish first and i thought there would always be more time and more girls.

        and it’s true, there may be more girls but despite what people say, they aren’t all the same and those intense connections that you mention are rare. that’s why so many of us have the-one-that-got-away stories.

        the people in this world who are truly happy and joyous in their lives are the ones who are willing to see an opportunity and say, to hell with my plans, i’m taking a risk and running with it.

        a lot of us are good at doing that in our careers and in other aspects of our lives but for most of us it seems irresponsible to handle our relationships that way. but why?

        we all have our own stories or we’ve heard them from others. we hear old people talk about regretting the things they didn’t do more than the things they did and we can see that the people who are the happiest and most passionate in their relationships are the ones who felt intense connections to people and did whatever they could to keep them.

        the rest of us put everything else first thinking we’ll always have more time and more chances to find someone else that’s just as good. but it doesn’t work like that. we don’t have unlimited time and opportunity. not in relationships or in anything else.

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    • @Scray

      You have to get them emotionally hooked to you, otherwise all you will have is fuck buddies who will use you as a dildo until they find a boyfriend.

      This means you have to strike a balance between alpha behavior that captures her sexually and beta behavior that captures her emotionally.

      This blog is an excellent read, especially this post:
      http://hvren.wordpress.com/2010/07/11/to-whatever-self-be-true-part-3-the-formula/

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      • on September 19, 2014 at 10:25 am gunslingergregi

        yea that is a good read
        I like the marriage after death shit myself what could possibly bind them emotionally to you more than that

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      • @kant

        thank for the post. good info

        this is the one i need to remember:

        calibrate the degree of alpha (yang) that your woman requires.
        for high-drama, high-estrogen BPD sexual-dynamo femmes fatales, this number may be as high as +10.

        for soft-spoken, modest, retiring church mice, this number may be as low as +4.

        ex was BPD high-drama, went into my recent LTR expecting the same. there have been a few times when i almost lost her because i was doing so much alpha that she started to shut down and pull away. got to keep paying attention and re-calibrating. none of this stuff is one-size-fits-all.

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    • Zaqan-what do you do? Backturn. This complaint to a manager is nothing more than a woman trying to destroy you and your career because of her feelings. The fact that she didn’t even have a credible reason speaks to intent. Chick is poison, so from now on all conversations are work related. Any non-work questions can be answered with closed responses: yes, no, etc. You can’t backturn and walk away from a fellow employee, but you can withdraw all personal interaction. And that’s safest, because anything non-work related will be used as an excuse to destroy you. So outside of the demands of work and normal civility, she has ceased to exist. Because she is poison, and smart men don’t play with poison.

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    • “What I’ve learned this year is that a laissez-faire approach works best for me: attract, sex up, then always be waiting for her to initiate”

      That’s my game in a nutshell. Best way to remain unattached and avoid game playing and overall flakiness.

      I’ve also trained myself to always expect the worst behavior from women at all times. I’m never disappointed or surprised by their bad behavior and have no problem walking away.

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  26. I think that “no fucks are given” when the girl is lower smv than you.

    When she’s higher smv than there will be slightly a few fucks given at least–biologically inevitable

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  27. FYI

    •Amused means to be entertained, to find something entertaining or pleasurable. Bemused means to be bewildered, distracted, confused or to be surprised.

    • Bemused can also imply a state of bewilderment along with a wry sense of amusement.

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