Game Starts At Birth

Game is a social dynamic that children as well as horny adults play. Game has roots deep in the human psyche that appear at a very young age, and thus is immune to the cultural conditioning explanation. My one and a half year old nephew and three year old niece provided excellent test cases of game in action.

Examples

Even though there was a mountain of toys under the tree, some still unwrapped, and toys strewn all over the room, when my nephew saw my niece playing one particular toy with great concentration he decided that was the one he wanted, RIGHT NOW. When she wouldn’t share the toy, he cried (i.e. bitched and moaned in child language).

  • Game principle demonstrated: Social Proof. My nephew wanted that toy more than all the others (despite the possibility that the other toys were better) because he saw his sister having fun with it. The toy was preselected by my niece.

When I gave my niece her present, she grabbed it and shredded the wrapping into confetti. Her mom had to remind her to thank me and give me a hug, which she did… absent-mindedly and perfunctorily, like she was fulfilling a tedious social obligation.

  • Game principle demonstrated: Disqualification. By freely giving my niece a gift when she most expected it, with no strings attached, I disqualified myself as a person who intrigues her. Had I qualified her first — “Hey, I don’t know if you’ve been a good girl this year, maybe I’ll give your gift to your brother instead” — she would have worked to earn my gift (i.e. compliment) and showed gratitude in the form of a genuine spontaneous hug.

Later, I was deeply engrossed in playing with the cat. It’s a very fat cat that when it sits on you keeps you warm all over, like a wool blanket. My niece saw that the cat was contented, and I was completely focused on scratching it under the chin. I told her she could come and pet it if she was gentle. She bounded over.

  • Game principle demonstrated: Pawning. The cat comes closest to competing with my niece for everyone’s attention. She knows a competitor when she sees one. By befriending the high value cat and making it a part of my social circle, I was able to pawn it off and lock in my niece’s attention.

I was watching one of the great classics on TV — Cannonball Run. My niece wanted to play “magic wand” with me again. (Previously, I let her turn me into a frog.) I waved her away. She kept coming back and I kept telling her to move away from the TV. She whined and ran right up to my face, bopping me on the head with her wand and begging me to turn into a frog.

  • Game principle demonstrated: Active Disinterest. My three year old niece knows she is the cutest person in the living room. She prances like a princess. In this environment, she is a 10. I gave her an IOD (Indicator of Disinterest) when I showed more attention to the TV than her, and that motivated her to win my approval.

When I finally relented and turned once more into a frog, and made ribbit noises, she squealed with delight. She zapped me with her wand again, and I turned into a monkey. Then a dog. And a bird. Each time I imitated a new animal, she released bursts of joy. But as my list of zoo animals ran out, she began getting bored. When I half-assedly meowed like a dying cat, she said “That animal is boring. I’m bored” and haughtily walked off.

  • Game principle demonstrated: Push-Pull. I spoiled my niece by giving her what she wanted. I was “pulling” her by being her dancing monkey, without pushing her away to keep her wanting more. She became bored with her expectations constantly being fulfilled.

My niece pulled out her stuffed animals and arranged them around a few dishes of my grandmother’s fine china. I asked her what the toys were doing, and she said they were having a tea party. I told her the elephant would not need hands because he would suck up his tea with his trunk. Then I pretended to be each of the animals, acting out the scene in progress. “Woof, Mr. Giraffe, would you please pass the bone?” “Excuse me, Mr. Dog, but Mr. Tiger wants to eat you. He likes delicious dog meat with his tea.” My niece parried my every move with a storyline of her own. The character development was better than most Hollywood blockbusters.

  • Game principle demonstrated: Stimulate her emotions. I threw logic out the window and immersed myself in the stuffed animal tea party world, and my niece’s excitement grew the more I built up the fantasy world. She was happy to discard logic and run wild with the animals’ dialogue, no matter how little sense it made.

I told my brother-in-law that based on the toys my nephew and niece played with (lincoln logs and princess dolls respectively), there was little chance they would grow up homosexual. His lineage was safe.

  • Game principle demonstrated: It’s biomechanics all the way down.




Comments


  1. Sounds like a great cat…

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  2. Even though there was a mountain of toys under the tree, some still unwrapped, and toys strewn all over the room, when my nephew saw my niece playing one particular toy with great concentration he decided that was the one he wanted, RIGHT NOW.

    This shows that men as well as women are vulnerable to valuing something because of social proof. The major exception though is female attractiveness.

    However, even there social proof has a minor function. A woman being with an obviously high quality man can intrigue us, at least for a moment. Ultimately, we men will make up our own mind based on how she looks in our own eyes, so social proof doesn’t have much ability to move the attractiveness meter in itself. But it can make us take a second look.

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  3. “By befriending the high value cat and making it a part of my social circle, I was able to pawn it off and lock in my niece’s attention.”

    This is probably the best sentence of 2008.

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  4. his shows that men as well as women are vulnerable to valuing something because of social proof. The major exception though is female attractiveness.

    I think men are much more immune to social proof in the area of female attractiveness, but they can still be pretty bad. Certain female stars I’m convinced would not be considered as hot to men without the media’s social proofing. Jennifer Love Hewitt for example is okay, but not really a 9 or 10. She’s “hair and makeup” hot in my opinion. Same with Anne Hathaway, I’d hit it and she has a nice rack, but her level of sex symbol status to me is far out of proportion to her actual looks. Jennifer Aniston too. Lots of social proof going on there.

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  5. Jennifer Aniston is beautiful, but by normal female standards. Anne Hathaway is pretty by WASP standards, and oddly, she could fit in at Wellesley. Jennifer Love Hewitt is pretty, but she’s Kohl’s circular beautiful. These women aren’t mega hot, but if they were normal women outside of Hollywood, I’d imagine that most men would be rather satisfied with their physical appearance.

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  6. T.:

    I’m not so sure it is social proof per se that make so-so celebs into sex symbols. The way I like to think about it, there are two major parts to a woman doing well in the sexual marketplace.

    1. Her looks.
    2. Getting noticed.

    For example, girls with an outgoing personality seem to punch well above their weight looks wise. The same with performers: singers, dancers, actresses etc. Women who wear colourful, shiny, or sparkly clothes do a lot better than prettier girls who wear blander stuff. This also helps explain why blondes seem to do better than brunettes.

    Being a female celeb is this phenomenon taken to its ultimate end. It may not mean you are spectacularly good looking, but it sure as hell means that you will get noticed. Never mind that most of the female star makers in the media seem to be gay men and other women. Once you are out there, you are out there.

    I once dated this absolutely adorable little girl who _seriously_ underrated her looks. The reasons: she was really shy and bookish, was into the outdoorsy look, went to a bunch of small churches, worked in an office with a bunch of older women and never went out to bars. She never got hit on.

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  7. T.:

    Jennifer Love Hewitt = 8
    Anne Hathaway = 7

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  8. It violates the principle of parsimony to resort to “social proof” to explain something that could more easily be explained by divergent tastes, T.

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  9. Fame, and its often attendent wealth, always bumps you up a few notches in romantic market value, for both men and women. Christina Onassis was quite ugly, but managed to marry four times, often to handsome men, because she was very wealthy. Jennifer Aniston is seen as a sex symbol, because she has a nice-ish body, and mostly because she is famous.

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  10. on December 26, 2008 at 5:01 pm ironrailsironweights

    One of our many cats is extremely jealous of me. She will spend an hour or more rubbing her face against mine, but will chase off any other cats (except for one, the leader of the cats) who tries to compete for my attention.

    Peter

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  11. My 6 year old cousin had to be reminded to thank me as well. I don’t think that is necessarily a “sex” thing.

    I did notice the differences in the sexes later on that evening, though. I was “roughhousing” with him and knocked his tooth out. The tooth was loose, but not quite ready to come out. It was a rather bloody affair. He thought it was “really cool” that his tooth was dislodged while wrestling. I cannot imagine a little girl would have taken so well to such a bloody scene.

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  12. t:

    Jennifer Aniston too. Lots of social proof going on there.

    wait what?
    there are straight men who actually find jennifer aniston “hot”?

    from what i can tell, she’s the type of woman that women love to say is “hot” – mostly because she’s “sunday church pretty” and doesn’t at all give off a vibe of being able to steal your man.
    i have never once heard a red-blooded straight man describe her as “hot”.

    for guidance on which women are really found “hot” by other women, look to the resentment and catty comments, not to the words of admiration.

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  13. I applaud the Bertrand Russell reference.

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  14. My daughter loves that magic wand game, too.

    One thing I’ve often wondered is how the old standby peekaboo (little girls absolutely love that one) plays into adult game.

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  15. When it comes to attractive women, men aren’t particularly interested in social proof. An attractive woman can go to the bar by herself and not have any problems getting guys to be interested in her.

    Also, pudunk is right. While there do exist certain universal, objective standards of beauty, at a certain point personal preferences take over. For instance, a debate over whether Anne Hathaway is a 7 or a 9 or “Who hotter? Scarlett Johannson or Jessica Alba?” It’s a Coke vs. Pepsi debate.

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  16. Yeah I love playing magic wand too with girls i meet in bars.

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  17. When it comes to attractive women, men aren’t particularly interested in social proof. An attractive woman can go to the bar by herself and not have any problems getting guys to be interested in her.

    Social proof is too broad a term.

    What gets social proofed is the issue. And that is 180 degrees different between the genders:

    Men are slut aversive when it comes to relationships. It is woman’s virtuousness that needs to get social proofed in that case. This is hard to social proof, hence social proof is less important to men. If anything, if her social proof suggests promiscuity, it will work against her in the general dating market.

    Women want proof for alpha status. In a sense high social status is NOTHING BUT SOCIAL PROOF.
    Even the fact that women “love confidence” can be reinterpreted as a man social proofing himself.
    Hence social proof seems to be the number 1 factor for women to chose mates:
    http://11minutes.wordpress.com/2008/12/16/a-man-in-love-is-unlovable-for-the-woman-he-loves/

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  18. A lot of children’s play is learning-based, i.e. play forms a greater part of learning.

    Some of it is bio-mechanics and some of it is not. The kids don’t have much if any hormones running through their bodies.

    But nearly every little girl will play in female ways, as do boys. Give girls toy trucks and there will be Mommy and Baby trucks, give boys Barbies and they will stage Barbie Wars.

    Watching kids interact is probably more useful in broad social settings, how humans interact based on gender differences but without sex hormones.

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  19. wait what?
    there are straight men who actually find jennifer aniston “hot”?

    A lot of it has worn off in the past decade, but in the 90s many a guy did indeed think she was hot.

    for guidance on which women are really found “hot” by other women, look to the resentment and catty comments, not to the words of admiration.

    Agreed. An interesting case to me is Britney Spears. When she was actually young and hot and before she fell off hard, guys loved her and girls hit her with the pettiest, cattiest resentful comments. When she became a white trash stereotype and fell off hard and gained weight, suddenly women were defending her while guys were trashing her.

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  20. “for guidance on which women are really found “hot” by other women, look to the resentment and catty comments, not to the words of admiration.”

    That’s generally true. Most women find women who sweat sex appeal to be threatening. However, often women who are actually rather plain trash themselves up in attempt to score beauty points. The guys here seem pretty sophisticated about feminine beauty, but a lot of guys can’t tell the difference. I knew girls in high school who wore as little as possible to take attention away from their homely faces.

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  21. “Certain female stars I’m convinced would not be considered as hot to men without the media’s social proofing. Jennifer Love Hewitt for example is okay, but not really a 9 or 10. She’s “hair and makeup” hot in my opinion. Same with Anne Hathaway, I’d hit it and she has a nice rack, but her level of sex symbol status to me is far out of proportion to her actual looks. Jennifer Aniston too. Lots of social proof going on there.”

    These are examples of stars that women like and identify with so they aren’t as sexy as, say, Megan Fox. For a star appealing to your own sex is different than appealing to the opposite sex.

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  22. Well, fr my part, I’m down w/the whole Social Proof deal not being that big a deal for the fellas. Having said that, the *only* celeb woman mentioned thus far that I find hot, is Jessica Alba. All the rest don’t do anything for a bruh.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  23. Re Britney,
    I was surprised she didn’t kill herself. Yeah, women hate on sex symbols but the paparazzi surrounding her like sharks combined with what ordinary people were saying about her seemed like kicking her when she was down. Have to give it to her though, people are fascinated by her whatever she does and I hope she can stage a genuine comeback.

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  24. As a philosophy geek I too applaud trotting out the principle of parsimony.

    So we have some sophisticated thinkers around here, when are we going to talk about ethics, seriously people? Please? Pretty, pretty please?? Pickup arts are such rich fodder. Throw a girl a bone please. And no, I don’t mean it that way. Geez.

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  25. OK Groggie, I’ll be your Huckleberry; that’s just my game.;)

    So, you wish to ask the Fellas of the Forum about ethics…& where, or even if, it jibes with Game. Yes?

    So go ahead. Pose your questions. I’ll try my best to answer, and perhaps my Patres will join us.

    *tips Kangol*

    Salaam
    Mu

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  26. When she became a white trash stereotype and fell off hard and gained weight, suddenly women were defending her while guys were trashing her.

    I’m the group outlier, but when she became the broken white trash stereotype, I felt rather sorry for her, and I thought she still looked better than most women out there. She may have gained some weight, but she didn’t become massively obese or chubby, so she still looked rather decent to me, especially when she dropped the blonde hair.

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  27. I was “roughhousing” with him and knocked his tooth out.

    Beating up little kids — you should be ashamed of yourself.

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  28. OK, I’m going to try some HTML tags here, hope they work …

    agnostic

    I was “roughhousing” with him and knocked his tooth out.

    Beating up little kids — you should be ashamed of yourself.

    Me:

    A clear ethics problem right there!

    Mu’Min

    OK Groggie, I’ll be your Huckleberry; that’s just my game.;)

    So, you wish to ask the Fellas of the Forum about ethics…& where, or even if, it jibes with Game. Yes?

    So go ahead. Pose your questions. I’ll try my best to answer, and perhaps my Patres will join us.

    Me:

    Bwahahaha – just made you jump through my hoop! Beta!

    Teasing.

    OK, first question for y’all. Do women, in your view, have souls?

    (I know, it sounds like a weird question, but I think it’s something one worries about as a girl, being seen as a soul & not just a body.)

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  29. To me, Britney Spears is just too “young” for me to take in a seriously sexual way. I always associate her with that Mickey Mouse stuff. Plus, she just doesn’t strike a sexual chord with me, but I don’t knock anyone for whom she does.

    Same deal with Aniston-NEVER thought she was the bomb. In fact, now that I think of it, none of the women featured on that Friends show I thought was all that, at all. Although if I had to choose one, it would have been Cox.

    Leila Rochon on the other hand…she can most definitely get it…

    Salaam
    Mu

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  30. Groggie,
    Oh, c’mon. Are you serious? Of course, Women have Souls! They are Human, are they/you not?

    Next question?

    Salaam
    Mu

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  31. What is it about little girls and tea parties? Any theories here?

    Anne Hathaway is majorly hot, IMHO, though not in the ways the magazine editors often present her.

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  32. Mike B.,
    The tea party thing is easy, man. Its a *social event*, and Females LOVE to socialize.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  33. brilliant! but are the parts of a child’s active mind the same as the parts that make a woman horny? or are these just general social principals?

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  34. “Same deal with Aniston-NEVER thought she was the bomb. In fact, now that I think of it, none of the women featured on that Friends show I thought was all that, at all. Although if I had to choose one, it would have been Cox.”

    “Friends” the show with more deflated asses than the runways of Milan.

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  35. “Friends” the show with more deflated asses than the runways of Milan.

    That’s assuming you like big ol’ bubblebutts.

    All three girls looked good in the early seasons. In later ones, “Phoebe” started looking haggard and “Monica” got all wiry & veiny like a dessicated bodybuilder. Aniston maintained her hot/bitchy princess look throught the show, but her upper arms also suffered from too much weight training.

    She started getting a major horseface after the series ended, though to be fair I see it more in still photos than in her post-Friends movie roles.

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  36. Courtney Cox was cute on “Family Ties” but I once read her say she was horrified by how fat she was then. Jennifer Aniston is Greek and apparently had some junk in the trunk and a more ethnic nose when she started out but she’s a total Hollywood bot now.

    So yeah, not a lot there to tempt a brotha like Mu.

    Can I type “brotha”?

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  37. Interesting, I try to comment and suddenly now it says “your comment is awaiting moderation.”

    Good grief, am I being censored?

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  38. Did you know that the “Janice” actress was originally intended for the Monica role?

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  39. Oh, I get it – I put my e-mail in and then I’m no longer censored.

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  40. “That’s assuming you like big ol’ bubblebutts.”

    A size 2 who is naturally a 2 can look relatively curvy, but a size 2 who’s starving herself looks gaunt. Same thing with butts. I know a 47 year old woman who maintains a size 4 by being just a hair away from anorexia. She looks fine until she turns around her butt appears to be impacted. “Friends” actresses may have looked good on camera but I suspect that in person they were obviously too thin.

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  41. Beauty never lasts. No matter how much beauty industry stuff is pushed.

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  42. Uncle Roissy seems to be quite affectionate toward his nephews. He will be a good dad someday.

    Ive seen kids compete socially also. The pretty kids band together and slightly denigrate the not-so-pretty kid. If you think back to your first “crush”, you’ll probably be thinking back to the first or second grade when you noticed one particular girl or another was “pretty” in your eyes. It certainly starts early whenever it starts. I can actually remember the first “pretty” girl I knew, and it was in kindergarten. I even remember that she had dark brown hair and blue eyes and oft wore a plaid dress. I was all of four. As I said, it starts early.

    Babies have been shown in scientific tests to focus longer on pictures of “pretty” people with “even” features.

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  43. “Uncle Roissy seems to be quite affectionate toward his nephews. He will be a good dad someday.”

    You must be new around here.

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  44. Not discounting the value of game in a place like DC, roissy… but will someone tell me how I didn’t need an ounce of game to bed a beautiful (and busty) Danish blonde (who speaks 5 languages)… and had the most mind-blowing sex I can remember, within 2.5 hours of meeting her in a Starbucks in Germany?

    I didn’t even bother to use game, and she was infinitely more approachable than even the plainest random DC chick. Infinitely better personality, too.

    Is it something about Denmark and the Danes? I heard they were “approachable” but this blew me away.

    Within 30 minutes of meeting, we walked to a Vietnamese restaurant for an early dinner… then a stroll around town groping each other’s asses… then a stroll to the U-bahn station where we were madly French-kissing on the platform… then brief train ride to my hotel and BAM…

    All this, plus compliments like all the time I was watching her, she was watching me… and it was the best experience since she was 16!

    WTF? How come this never happens in the States?

    FUCK the States!!! Fuck American cunt women!!

    NEVER had anything remotely like this in DC… And I pity you guys who never bother to leave US shores.

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  45. The simplest lesson of social proof I have is thinking back to high school and all the girls I’d declined to hook up with because they weren’t cool enough. Years later, I am still haunted by the ghosts of teenage pussy I didn’t bang.

    I cheer up when I am visited by the ghost of Future Pussy. It’s a Scrooge-like catharsis.

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  46. I don’t know if it’s social proof or the fact that women and poufy dudes seem to be the arbiters of celebritarditude, but most Hollyweird females are barely identifiable as human, let alone hot. I suspect many of them start out hot and fade rapidly, but they remain famous for being famous or something. Go check out Ask Men’s Top 99 Most Desirable women and laugh yourself silly at the freakshow on display there. I wrote an abridged edition if you want witty commentary.

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  47. Lupo:

    If you don’t think Adrian Lima is hot I respectfully suggest you take up cocksmoking.

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  48. “but are the parts of a child’s active mind the same as the parts that make a woman horny?
    As Roissy describes, to win and keep a little girl’s interest is not unlike attracting women. Scarcity, intrigue, push-pull are all useful in capturing the attention of children, girls more-so than boys.

    Joe T – pray tell! I’m going to ‘study broads’ in Denmark this upcoming semester. No experience with Danes, but I’ve a similar story – had a great time with a German girl I met, despite poor planning, and it being among my first pickups.

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  49. BasilRansom (btw love your name)… I think the difference between Danish (and European in general) women and American women is that American women are devoid of self-esteem, and therefore continuously front and put up shit tests… Roissy has often cited the role inherent self-esteem plays in the general bitchiness, cuntiness of American women.

    Another thing is that American chicks these days (especially in big cities) are paranoid and freak out if you show any interest, and immediately suspect you of being a serial killer, rapist, etc. because that’s what how our media programs them to view men. They Google your ass six days from Sunday, consult a retinue of their psychotic friends for their opinions, their astrologer, tree rings or whatever. First they want to “vet” you by going out on group dates with a million of their boring friends… to the point where when the vetting process is finally over, you want nothing to do with their ass.

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  50. And Basil – good luck in Denmark. I have a feeling you won’t need much game, you’ll just need to show up, smile a bit, have a pulse, and not have, like cystic acne and a third eye pulsating in the middle of your forehead. If you are halfway good looking, you will probably exceed all expectations!

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  51. Tupac wrote: “If you don’t think Adrian Lima is hot I respectfully suggest you take up cocksmoking.”

    Adrian Lima has a less female waist to hip ratio than I do. While she’s still capable of putting a saucy look on her face, I don’t think any woman with the physique of a sausage belongs in a top 99 list of anything.

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  52. Lupo:

    I hear what you’re saying, and I love curves as much as the next guy, but if this is “sausage”, then pass me the eggs. I’m hungry.

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  53. She looks pretty good (and a lot younger) in that photo, but in this one, she looks like a freaking sausage lady. And that’s the photo they used in the askmen guide I was making fun of.

    Probably, it’s from doing lots of sit ups, which seems to turn many otherwise attractive women into sausages. Apparently, nobody told them site reduction doesn’t work.

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  54. Thursday
    Yeah, sausage:
    http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z250/l0vergur1/adriana-lima.jpg</blockquote?

    They did a decent job, but it’s still obviously photoshopped.

    Look at her lowest left rib. It curves down. This distortion means the waist was pulled in at that point. You can also see that the left hip appears higher than the right. The right side of her waist was pulled in at a lower point. Also, check her bellybutton — it’s off center. Kind of a funny mistake, and probably a result of trying to widen the hips.

    Compare to this image.

    Verdict: sausage

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  55. WTF? How come this never happens in the States?

    Do you live in an area in the US where the obesity epidemic is particularly bad and where there are particularly many alphas?

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  56. Wow, I have officially been censored and expunged, so here is my personal farewell note to Roissy:

    No hard feelings, it’s your blog and you’re perfectly within your rights to make it the way you want it, and also understandable if you’re uncomfortable with any attempt at its being hijacked by a frothy-mouthed ethics dominatrix.

    But: You’re a wonderful writer, very funny, and extremely intelligent. You are wasting yourself on this. I really wish you’d go do something a little more worthwhile like achieving world piece, which, given your ability to influence others for better or worse, should be well within your capabilities.

    Cheers,

    T.

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  57. Oops, I meant world peace! 🙂 No double-entendre intended there.

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  58. on December 27, 2008 at 10:30 am Comment_Observations

    On a positive note, it looks like I’m going to be getting my money back in a month or two at most. Two years of unpleasantness is about to end. However, I was (mostly) like this even before the disaster two years ago!

    Anyway, Roissy is right that ‘natural instincts’ start early…. however, what makes human being human beings is acknowledging why we are doing things and then, even if only subconsciously, changing that initial programming to something we ‘like’ more.

    Since many people refuse to acknowledge/lie to themselves as to why they do things, that initial programming stays in it’s ‘base state’. And yeah, that causes problems.

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  59. Lupo,
    Just checked out your commentary list. Can’t agree with you except for one female: Pinder. And I do it knowing that the likelihood is high that her boobies are fake.

    Salaam
    Mu

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  60. We are establishing new ===Guinness World Record=== Be a PART OF IT here: http://record-guinness.blogspot.com

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  61. Markku – yes, I have always lived in areas in the US where the obesity epidemic is bad and/or where there are many alphas.

    Actually, to tell you the truth, the obesity epidemic is “bad” now all over the States. Sure, statistics always show that obesity rates are worst in the Deep South. But remember, that’s in the context of an entire country that has an exceptionally high (and ever-growing) rate of obesity anyway, regardless of location.

    I don’t think it’s so much the numbers of alphas and obesity though. These things do play a big role, but I think it’s the overall tenor and values of the society which determine people’s attitudes.

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  62. Nice… I think I finally got the “Connect with her emotions” Roissy Maxim.

    In conversations with women, I’ve often noticed bitches like to indulge in retarded little fantasies about some crazy princess inspired bullshit or whatever. I typically brush them off and change the subject or proceed to insta-nod mode. All the while thinking about just how fucking retarded the bitch in front of me really is and whether or not she’s gonna bounce on my cock like a dirty whore. What do you mean you won’t do the froggie? Fuck it, just roll over…

    So yeah, my mental note from now on is to let them have their retarded world of make-believe. Fuck, run with that shit dude. Who the fuck cares? If encouraging her stupid little fantasies is going to get her beef-flaps moist and slick, fuck it, hell yeah you should remodel your kitchen!

    Thank you yet again for helping me weave through the bullshit required to pump-and-dump the lesser half.

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  63. i wouldn’t look twice if I saw Anne Hathaway in the bookstore reading a magazine. Period. Men are the biggest proof of social worth trumping actual sex appeal….

    this is one of the best Roissy posts in awhile. cheers for the coming year of game and observation.

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  64. I think there are three dimensions of female attractiveness:

    1. Cute — an emphasis on babyish features (e.g., Drew Barrymore)
    2. Beautiful — having traditionally attractive features like symmetrical face, big eyes (e.g., Sienna Miller)
    3. Hot — elicits pure carnal lust (e.g., Eva Mendes)

    Also, women can be attractive along one or more dimensions. For example, Adriana Lima scores high along all three dimensions. Britney Spears scores high on the cute scale and once had an equivalent hot score.

    Certain women are objectively beautiful but have zero sex appeal (Anne Hathaway, Jennifer Garner). Other women usually like these types of actresses because they are sexually non-threatening. Jennifer Love Hewitt would fall into this category too except for the fact of her disproportionate rack, which threatens women.

    Random cheap shot: Kirsten Dunst is hideous and I’m not sure how she became the leading lady for the Spidey series.

    Like


  65. I don’t think it’s so much the numbers of alphas and obesity though. These things do play a big role, but I think it’s the overall tenor and values of the society which determine people’s attitudes.

    You wrote that in the US women are total bitches and that in Denmark one barely needs a pulse to score hot chicks. No “overall tenor and values of the society which determine people’s attitudes” explain such a drastic difference in what kind of treatment from hot chicks a given man can expect in two different countries.

    Like


  66. Markku, I was speaking a bit light-heartedly about Denmark, not from actual experience there. I havemt even been to Denmark yet — I met the Danish girl I referred to in Germany.

    If you have questions about what I’m referring to, go back to my post where I cited the lack of self-esteem of American women. For it is the root cause of all our broblems.

    I lay it at the doorstep of American turbo-capitalism, which instills nagging feelings of anomie and material desire in people, and a ridiculous level of competitiveness.

    But that’s all right, because the American model of capitalism is dying right now, and soon, America may no longer be the great hegemon it once was.

    Like


  67. Another lesson — material prizes aren’t worth as much as things that tickle her imagination. I.e., no buying flowers, rings, $100 drinks, etc.

    My nephew would rather play with cardboard boxes, spatulas, and the colander, than the singing colorful toys he just got for Christmas.

    Like


  68. on December 27, 2008 at 6:14 pm ironrailsironweights

    I think there are three dimensions of female attractiveness:
    1. Cute — an emphasis on babyish features (e.g., Drew Barrymore)
    2. Beautiful — having traditionally attractive features like symmetrical face, big eyes (e.g., Sienna Miller)
    3. Hot — elicits pure carnal lust (e.g., Eva Mendes)

    4. Wonderful – has a thick, rich, flavorful GNP.

    Peter

    Like


  69. Sorry, Markku – that should have been “problems” in my last post, not “broblems”.

    I think I’m turning into an Arab.

    Like


  70. I didnt read the rest of the comments (yet) but basically all women are like 3 year olds, me likey

    Like


  71. Uncle Roissy seems to be quite affectionate toward his nephews. He will be a good dad someday.

    If he has daughters… he’s obviously more interested in his nieces. And why not? Boys are made of slugs and snails and puppy-dog tails.

    If you’ve taught or tutored pre-pubescents, you know that the girls get more attention from all the teachers, male and female. They smile, skip, and do cartwheels. What do boys do?

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  72. Groggie
    Wow, I have officially been censored and expunged, so here is my personal farewell note to Roissy:

    😯
    *screams*
    Noooooo don’t let them run you away!
    Joe T Another thing is that American chicks these days (especially in big cities) are paranoid and freak out if you show any interest, and immediately suspect you of being a serial killer, rapist, etc. because that’s what how our media programs them to view men.
    Yes, I’m guilty here^^^
    Jennifer Aniston too. Lots of social proof going on there.
    wait what?
    there are straight men who actually find jennifer aniston “hot”?

    DA Love Hewitt is pretty, but she’s Kohl’s circular beautiful.
    *DEAD
    Goggle Stephanie Seymour, Diahann Carroll, Cindy Crawford, Liya Kabede, and Dorothy Dandridge for pics of very good looking women.

    Like


  73. I have to agree on the whole theme of American chicks having meltdowns if people show them any interest at times; you can always pick out the paranoid and totally batshit ones who will do this.

    Then, if you are like me, you deliberately fuck with them by expressing interest while making sure the combat knife you just happen to have with you is less than perfectly concealed.

    Like


  74. If you’ve taught or tutored pre-pubescents, you know that the girls get more attention from all the teachers, male and female.

    Not true. Boys get the most attention in schools.

    Like


  75. What do boys do?

    My niece is still cute and childish, so I can give her hugs and tickle her, and she enjoys the attention. My nephew in contrast grew out of that and we spend our time playing PlayStation, watching TV, or indulging his curiosity when he asks how something works.

    Interestingly, when I’m in public, my nephew is seen by others as my little brother while my niece is seen as my daughter…

    Like


  76. Dunst is related to someone, I think that’s why she got the role.

    Sienna Miller is of course famous for sleeping with older, married men. Who are rich. Hathaway has deplorable taste in men, one douchebag after another, like the site “Hot Chicks With Douchebags” …

    Aniston might have been hot ten years ago. Now? Not so great.

    David Spade pulls in lots of formerly hot babes, who are now walking advertisements for how poorly Botox and plastic surgery delay aging: Heather Locklear, Teri Hatcher, Nicolette Sheridan, etc. who would have ignored his existence twelve years ago when he was busy getting tazered by his assistant.

    Somehow he doesn’t seem too happy. His serious playmates … tend to be twenty something Playboy Playmates (i.e. the one he had a kid with).

    Hollywood DOES have hot women, but they are mostly on TV, away from the movies casting domination by gay men: Amanda Righetti of “the Mentalist” or Yvonne Strawhowski of “Chuck” or Eliza Dushku or Sarah Michelle Gellar or the very curvy Michelle Trachtenberg. There’s also “Life’s” Sarah Shahi, a former NFL cheerleader, come to think of it.

    Cameron Diaz? Drew Barrymore? Sad Turtle Maggie Gyllenhall? Please. I could find hotter gals at the Mall.

    Like


  77. whiskey – Eliza Dushku has been in a lot of movies. I loved her in “The New Guy” – especially riding the mechanical bull!

    Like


  78. on December 28, 2008 at 12:37 am Lipstick Lesbian

    I told my brother-in-law that based on the toys my nephew and niece played with (lincoln logs and princess dolls respectively), there was little chance they would grow up homosexual.

    Little do you know what little gay girls do with Barbie.

    Like


  79. Lipstick Lesbian –

    And you know what they say about the “Log Cabin Republicans”…

    BTW, I wonder what they were thinking about when they gave themselves that name?

    Like


  80. 1. Lets go over some of the Buffy girls:

    Sarah Michelle Gellar
    Face 6
    Body 9
    Overall 6.5

    Michelle Trachtenberg
    Face 7
    Body 9
    Overall 7

    Allyson Hannigan
    Face 7
    Body 7
    Overall 7

    Elisha Dushku
    Face 7
    Body 8
    .5 Bonus points for edgy sexuality
    Overall 7.5

    Popular more because they are attainable than because they are truly hot. Most men, sadly, are actually afraid of amazingly hot women, even just on screen.

    2. The reason most female movie stars aren’t that hot anymore is that they’re getting old. Lots of former hotties out there that people are investing in because they have built up a brand name. Still, there are the Scarlett Johannsons and the Megan Foxes. Even Kiera Knightley is very pretty when she covers up that anorexic body.

    TV seems OKish, I guess. Less need to rely on bankable brand name stars, I suppose.

    The best place to find hot women though is among Victoria’s Secret models. Mein gott.

    Like


  81. “Little do you know what little gay girls do with Barbie.”

    Tear the heads off and freak out their little sisters, like little boys ?

    Like


  82. Roissy, If you don’t mind, and with the other readers’ consent, could you turn off that snap preview thing on links? It doesn’t help in any way because it’s too tiny, and all it does is jam your browser for those few seconds.

    Like


  83. […] Roissy – Love in the time of game ‘Game starts at birth’ Game Starts At Birth Roissy in DC "Game is a social dynamic that children as well as horny adults play. Game has roots deep in […]

    Like


  84. Heh… that’s really a rather adorable entry, Roissy.

    Like


  85. Seconding Velvetgunther’s request. Snap previews suck.

    Like


  86. Thursday, that list of yours ranking the beauty of female starlets is awfully nerdy. It’s hard to believe that the ravishing (young) Audrey Hepburn would get more than a 5 for “body” on that scale, given her thinness; and I expect some men would find the proportions of her face too unconventional for their tastes – so perhaps a 7? Yet she was a real beauty, haunting and poetic, in a way that I suspect the 1-10 scale simply cannot capture. Or perhaps it could – if you looked at her as a kind of total “package” in which face, figure, grace of movement, personal style, radiant smile, and lovely voice all contributed to the whole, and made her a 10+.

    Like


  87. It’s hard to believe that the ravishing (young) Audrey Hepburn would get more than a 5 for “body” on that scale, given her thinness

    Which underscores how much more important for men a woman’s facial structure is than her body. If you have a 10 face like Hepburn, your body doesn’t much matter.

    Notice that the scores for body in my “nerdy” list didn’t much affect the overall score.

    Only in exceptional circumstances can a body significantly boost someone’s overall score:

    Gisele Bundchen
    Face 9
    Body 10
    Overall 10

    Or perhaps it could – if you looked at her as a kind of total “package” in which face, figure, grace of movement, personal style, radiant smile, and lovely voice all contributed to the whole, and made her a 10+.

    Face. Face. Face.

    Like


  88. ‘Which underscores how much more important for men a woman’s facial structure is than her body. If you have a 10 face like Hepburn, your body doesn’t much matter.’

    absolutely true. facial bone structure is absolutely key and vastly more important than anything else…

    however, you are really quite harsh IMO on your grading of women considering you don’t give Sarah Michelle Gellar, Michelle Trachtenberg, Allyson Hannigan, or Elisha Dushku a ‘face’ grade higher than a ‘7.’ i can’t see how you give gisele a ‘face’ grade of a ‘9’ either. i guess we just have different taste.

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  89. Boys get the most attention in schools.

    Not the kind of attention you show your adorable relatives, the kind of attention I was talking about.

    in a way that I suspect the 1-10 scale simply cannot capture.

    In case that Tupac Chopra guy is reading — that’s how you lure Clio out of hiding. Just throw some numbers on something she holds very dear, and like an overprotective mother she’ll swoop in from the other room to scrub out the spot you’ve left.

    Might I suggest an Ultimate Top 10 List of Saints with the Most Kickass Lives?

    Scrub, scrub!

    Like


  90. But Audrey Hepburn’s facial beauty really wasn’t up to the standars of her time – I mean, her nose is rather large, for example, and her chin would once have been thought too square, her mouth too wide, for beauty. (Tiny dainty features, pointed chins, and “rosebud” mouths were for centuries the main indicators of feminine beauty.) I love her looks, but I really believe that the elements I threw in contribute to the impression of beauty that she makes on viewers. If she had been ungainly in movement and sloppy in her style, her somewhat unusual looks might have been more difficult for the conventional to appreciate. Certainly in her own time there were many people who insisted that she wasn’t beautiful.

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  91. The face is more important than the body for girls judging guys too.

    As a rule-of-thumb, whatever impresses same-sex rivals doesn’t impress the opposite sex to nearly the same extent. Girls are impressed by each others’ fashion, but we don’t care, beyond not looking homeless. Guys are impressed by each others’ gym bodies, but girls choose based more on the face.

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  92. But Audrey Hepburn’s facial beauty really wasn’t up to the standars of her time – I mean, her nose is rather large, for example, and her chin would once have been thought too square, her mouth too wide, for beauty.

    You’re talking like I talk when I try and figure out why some guy is or isn’t good looking.

    I love her looks, but I really believe that the elements I threw in contribute to the impression of beauty that she makes on viewers.

    Female viewers.

    Like


  93. The face is more important than the body for girls judging guys too.

    Perhaps this is true, though I’d like to see some studies. But the fact is that the body is faaaaaar more important for women than men. As I think Clio has mentioned, a reasonably tall, well built guy with a so, so face will almost always do really well with women. Movie stars from Burt Lancaster to Vin Diesel have become sex symbols almost entirely due to their perfect bodies, whereas I can’t think of even one female equivalent.

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  94. Nice post.

    Like


  95. Thursday my duck, I think it’s men rather than women who are more likely to look at the Audrey Hepburns of the world and wonder what all the fuss is about.

    In an age when they preferred doll faces and curvy bodies, ordinary men were not all that keen on Audrey. And no, I’m not in denial about her beauty: I see it, I feel it, I am very conscious of it and always adored her on-screen.

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  96. As I think Clio has mentioned, a reasonably tall, well built guy with a so, so face will almost always do really well with women.

    But that’s due more to rugged masculinity than being found better looking. The importance of sheer looks to women changes over the lifespan, younger ones valuing it more (because of higher testosterone).

    The typical college coed will take a cute skinny boy like Jared Leto over a ripped guy with a so-so face.

    whereas I can’t think of even one female equivalent.

    Nelly Furtado! Very masculine, severe face — but an ass to dream about.

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  97. Thursday my duck, I think it’s men rather than women who are more likely to look at the Audrey Hepburns of the world and wonder what all the fuss is about.

    Audrey Hepburn had a really pretty face, and I think her charisma and charm and ingenue act all enhance her attractiveness and make her seem even more attractive than she really is, but that 13 year old boy body really doesn’t do much for me. She pretty much NEEDS a face that pretty to compensate for that body.

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  98. Nelly Furtado! Very masculine, severe face — but an ass to dream about.

    I disagree, I think she has a really pretty face.

    Like


  99. “BTW, I wonder what they were thinking about when they gave themselves that name?”

    Apparently there’s this belief that Lincoln was gay. The only likely gay president (Buchanan…he was unmarried and spent lots of time with Rufus King) wasn’t much respected (historians say his appeasement of the South helped bring on the Civil War), so it’s unlikely anyone would want to cite him as a model.

    But, um, yes, whose log in whose cabin indeed.

    Like


  100. @Thursday’s beauty scale for Sarah Michelle-Gellar etc.

    These ratings (especially for Buffy and Elisha Dushku), are they relative to other celebrities or the general female population? When talking with friends I’ve always run into this problem. Take Chelsea Handler. I got into an argument with a friend who said she was ugly (face+body). I agree that she may not be that attractive compared to other celebs, but if you saw her on the street she would be in at least the 90th percentile (especially compared to the wildebeests and shut-ins that are often not taken into account in these ratings), and most guys would tag her. I think comparing normal girls and celebs on the same scale is pointless. We need a celeb scale and a normal chick scale.

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  101. Lincoln was definitely not gay, that’s bullshit.

    He was sort of a “beta” with women, though — very moony, gawky, nervous about making the first move, ended up with a somewhat psycho woman. But a leader of men from the beginning, showing the silliness of such distinctions.

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  102. Clio:

    When I look at George Clooney, I can feel his handsomeness too, but am much more likely to talk about chins and noses. As for Audrey, all that is needed is for me to look at this, and I just viscerally _feel_ it. Analysis is lost in the feeling, and in the face of that feeling, talk about how her nose is too large seems utterly ridiculous. No man who feels what I feel would say it.

    I think it’s men rather than women who are more likely to look at the Audrey Hepburns of the world and wonder what all the fuss is about.

    There are a fair number of guys who can respond only to the crudest of sexual signals. They like ’em blond and busty.

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  103. Just to make my point a little clearer, I think there are certain types of female beauty that appeal more to men; others that appeal more to women (we do appreciate our own sex’s beauty, you know); and others still that appeal equally to either sex. Here’s a list to show what I mean (n.b. I’m referring to these women in the prime of their looks and youth):

    For men’s taste:
    Jean Harlow; Marilyn Monroe; Heather Locklear; Scarlett Johansson; Cheryl Tiegs; Betty Grable; Pamela Anderson; Jayne Mansfield; Pia Zadora; Bo Derek; Anna Kournikova. Pinup-girls all, without much style and often without personality but with generous busts and hips.

    For women:
    Audrey Hepburn; Lauren Bacall; Greta Garbo; Grace Kelly; Julie Christie; Linda Evangelista. Not pinup girls; notable for their style and carriage. Many men would find them beautiful but in a non-sexual way.

    For both sexes:
    Elizabeth Taylor; Sophia Loren; Ava Gardner: Hedy Lamarr; Farrah Fawcett; Cindy Crawford; Diana Rigg. Beautiful women with some style and presence who also have strong sex appeal.

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  104. For my money,nothing puts lead in my pencil like Bea Arthur! To think of all the time I spent rubbing one out to her image,sometimes in a diaphonous nightie,sometimes nude,sometimes doing all manner of obscene things-to me,to Betty White,to my old 4th grade nun…so mnay hot shots!

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  105. Nelly Furtado! Very masculine, severe face — but an ass to dream about.

    I’m with T. She’s really pretty.

    Having been a long time reader of you blog, you should realize that you seem to have really divergent tastes from most guys. Nothing wrong with that at all, but it does mean you should be cautious about throwing out these examples.

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  106. How did a post about game starting at birth evolve into people posting about Audrey Hepburn and Betty White?

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  107. Clio:
    Not a bad bunch of lists. Having somewhat more refined, feminine tastes than the average guy, I tend to find a lot of women in the For Women list very sexy, while not being really into most of the girls in the For Men list, Scarlett Johansson being the most notable exception. A lot of the women in your For Women list were very popular with particular directors, like Alfred Hitchcock and Howard Hawks. I guess I’m not the only artsy guy who is into them. (Roissy has similar tastes too, I believe.) Never did understand the Julie Christie thing though.

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  108. Tricia Helfer was really hot in the early seasons of Galactica. Being 34, she’s past her prime now.

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  109. Boys get the most attention in schools.

    if you actually believe that this is true for positive or constructive attention – as in, excluding the “now johnny, rein in your testosterone and act like the girls” type of attention – then you are absolutely beyond hope.
    you probably believe in the existence of “glass ceilings”, “pay gaps”, faeries, and bogeymen, too.

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  110. How did a post about game starting at birth evolve into people posting about Audrey Hepburn and Betty White?

    read blogs much?

    ironically, “opening and maintaining multiple conversational threads” is a fundamental PUA directive.

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  111. “Tricia Helfer was really hot in the early seasons of Galactica. Being 34, she’s past her prime now.”

    if tricia helfer isn’t a 10+/10, i don’t know what is?! granted, she is 34yo now. her husband at least got her when she was 29yo. a little past her prime but still not bad- considering she started out so high.

    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1065454/

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  112. Movie stars from Burt Lancaster to Vin Diesel have become sex symbols almost entirely due to their perfect bodies, whereas I can’t think of even one female equivalent.
    Jennifer Aniston & Gisele Bundchen are the female equivalent.

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  113. Tricia Helfer was a top high fashion model back in her day.

    Jared Leto is a pretty boy in the same vein as Blair Underwood, jessie metcalf, Reggie Williams(kim K’s boyfriend),Clinton Portis & Rob Lowe

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  114. Jennifer Aniston

    Who ever thought she had _that_ great of a body? I don’t remember anyone remarking on her body much at all. She was just cute and funny on the top rated show of the 90s. (The Rachel character, girly and neurotic as she was, was by far the sexiest on the show, while Monica was too much of a housewife and Phoebe too much of an earth mother.)

    Gisele Bundchen

    Granted that her body is what put her into the very top ranks, but her face is still 9+. After all, she’s a model, not an actress or singer. Neither Burt Lancaster nor Vin Diesel have a 9+ face.

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  115. BTW Chic, I think black women tend to place more value on a man’s looks, both body and face.

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  116. Jared Leto is a pretty boy in the same vein as Blair Underwood, jessie metcalf, Reggie Williams(kim K’s boyfriend),Clinton Portis & Rob Lowe

    I’m not really sure how you can refer to Portis, one of the top running backs in the NFL is a pretty boy. And I’m assuming you mean Reggie Bush, not Williams. Unless Kim has a thing for players on offense named Reggie. 😉

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  117. Who ever thought she had _that_ great of a body?

    She wouldn’t really show off on the show, but she was frequently on late night shows wearing very short skirts. She still has fantastic legs, they are always the last to go.

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  118. ‘Granted that her body is what put her into the very top ranks, but her face is still 9+. After all, she’s a model, not an actress or singer. Neither Burt Lancaster nor Vin Diesel have a 9+ face.’

    i respect ur posts and website, but this middle statement makes no sense. in fact, roissy’s done a post on how the fashion industry is really geared to the appeal of gay men and women, and i’d agree. i am not awe inspired by gisele’s face compared to some really hot chick like (a prime) jenna jameson, for example.

    as whiskey and others have said, if you really want to see the type of women american men find attractive, look at who is at the top of the porn listings or on the cover of maxim, fhm… like i said, maybe we just have different tastes.

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  119. i’ve always maintained that gisele bundchen’s face is more masculine than my own.

    i just looked at some pictures, and i’m right.

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  120. I think Aniston was extremely overrated, especially back in the 90s, but even I have to give her props on her body, except for that timeframe when she got too skinny and her arms got too toned sinewy.

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  121. before i get some superfluous comment about this subject- yes, i know that some fashion models are really hot. tricia helfer is a great example of this. my point is simply that fashion is generally less representative of what american guys find attractive than porn or other mediums that are almost solely dependent on guys for financial support.

    please look up what generally means before you write a comment against what i wrote (i’m not talking to you thursday when i type this).

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  122. bloggings seem to run a bit deeper now, nice

    females are built for polygamy; preselction inspired cuckoldry

    proximal pheromones synchronize menstrual cycles

    males are built for polygamy

    all take/want more resources than (superficially) necessary

    biomechanics are not irreducible, though

    Time is.

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  123. Perhaps I should have said Victoria’s Secret model.

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  124. Thursday, Giselle started out as a high fashion model. One does not have to be beautiful to be a high fashion model. Look at Tyra, Stella Tenant,Anouck Lepree,CocoRocka or Lara Stone. Even the editors at Vogue made mention of Giselle masculine face and bumpy nose. It’s her very womanly physique that made her stand out.

    BTW Chic, I think black women tend to place more value on a man’s looks, both body and face
    I think your wrong Thursday. I’ve listened to white women break the looks of Black men down giving ratings to both face and body. All women look at both parts as the physical traits you poses may be passed down to a woman’s children. Face and body are also examined to make a quick judgment on the health of a man.

    Thursday- most Victoria Secret models started out as high fashion models. Google Douzen Kroes. She has the face of a VS model but her body is just awful. She is as str8 as 6’oclock

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  125. Giselle started out as a high fashion model.

    Irrelevant.

    most Victoria Secret models started out as high fashion models.

    Irrelevant.

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  126. Neither Burt Lancaster nor Vin Diesel have a 9+ face.

    Some men have million dollar bodies and food stamp faces. We sometimes like parts just like you men.

    I’m not really sure how you can refer to Portis, one of the top running backs in the NFL is a pretty boy. And I’m assuming you mean Reggie Bush, not Williams. Unless Kim has a thing for players on offense named Reggie
    Thanks Sparks, it’s Reggie Bush. I couldn’t remember his last name.
    Clinton Portis is very much a pretty boy, just look at his face. He is more pretty than masculine handsome.

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  127. Giselle started out as a high fashion model.

    Irrelevant.

    most Victoria Secret models started out as high fashion models.

    Irrelevant.

    How so? You make mention of the fact that they are models and I’m bringing it to your attention that high fashion models are not beautiful( anymore). Most VS models make their way down the pipeline from high fashion for the bigger paycheck that VS guarantees

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  128. The main point lost in all of this is that models, whether VS or high fashion, get publicity almost exclusively for their looks, not how good a comedienne they are or how good they can sing or how otherwise talented they are.

    We sometimes like parts just like you men.

    Men focus on the face almost exclusively. A woman with an ugly face and a hot body wouldn’t become a sex symbol.

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  129. The main point lost in all of this is that models, whether VS or high fashion, get publicity almost exclusively for their looks

    it is a focus on looks- but only so far as those looks appeal to women and gay men. straight men generally don’t buy cosmetics, perfumes or fashion magazines.

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  130. porn stars, on the other hand, have to have the focus on their looks, almost completely irrespective of any other factor, as it appeals to straight men who are the primary financial support for the porn industry.

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  131. The main point lost in all of this is that models, whether VS or high fashion, get publicity almost exclusively for their looks, not how good a comedienne they are or how good they can sing or how otherwise talented they are
    Exactly and sometimes those looks are not conventional beauty but weird beauty like Karen Elson.

    Not Roissy, Thursday. He focuses on body first then face. Actually from my experience, I would say it’s split down the middle. Some men will overlook a hoarse face for a nice body, while others take a size 12-14 body but 10 face.

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  132. I’ve always thought Giselle was pretty overrated compared to her fellow VS models (Lima, Ambrossio, Ebanks). I pretty much see her as a curvier Sarah Jessica Parker.

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  133. Sparks- Ebanks looks better with longer hair. VS Black Brazilian model Emauela de Paula is very gorgeous as well as former VS angel Kiara Kabukuro. Kiara Kabukuro hasn’t aged a day. Oluchi, well I can leave or take her.

    I pretty much see her as a curvier Sarah Jessica Parker.
    Damn if you aren’t right. The very same long hoarse face.

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  134. Lima would be in my top ten all time fav faces. She looks like an angel and she is a virgin.

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  135. Men focus on the face almost exclusively. A woman with an ugly face and a hot body wouldn’t become a sex symbol.

    dude, no.
    it’s both.
    are you seriously claiming that hot face + ugly body has any better chance than the inverse?

    in fact, given the choice, the butterface has a better chance. there are butterface sex symbols (see fergie for a case in point), but i can’t think of any sex symbols with lackluster bodies.

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  136. Not Roissy, Thursday. He focuses on body first then face.

    as usual you pull shit out of your ass, chic. nowhere have i said i focus on the body before the face. rein it in. i don’t give a flying fuck which women you think are hot or which fat craps like bubba clinton make you go woozy. do me a favor and curb your ‘lima is my top ten fave’ verbal vomit.

    all this fashion model talk bores the fuck out of me. audrey hepburn would have been hot in any generation. have any of you hair splitters taken a stroll through walmart lately? yeah, here’s a heads up: if hepburn or gisele bundchen were to show up in aisle 5 you’d do a triple take. they absolutely blow away the average female.

    and clio, for the last time, beauty is objective. science proves it, and if it weren’t objective, we wouldn’t even have a concept of beauty as every random jane would be in the running for alpha male attention. that is not what we have, now is it duck? there is no magical beauty scale that shifts from one decade to the next. those hollywood stars with the pouty lips were still pretty attractive compared to the typical woman of today, and as i’ve gone on ad nauseum with you, makeup standards do not the beauty standard make. it’s all about underlying facial bone structure.

    Some men will overlook a hoarse face for a nice body, while others take a size 12-14 body but 10 face.

    they don’t do this by choice. every man wants a 10 body and 10 face, but they compromise as befits their standing in the sexual marketplace, as do women. of course, if the woman is 40+ pounds overweight, the distinction between her body and face becomes meaningless, as all the fat disfigures whatever natural beauty her face possesses under a layer of blubber. fyi: dont bother answering, chic. odds are you will say something banal and irrelevant.

    one more thing, chic. the fashion models who go onto a VS career are atypical of the fashion industry. those VS girls are specifically chosen for their more womanly figures to model lingerie than the weirdo prepubescent boys that gays like to drape their fruity creations over on catwalks.

    Like


  137. on December 28, 2008 at 8:10 pm ironrailsironweights

    have any of you hair splitters taken a stroll through walmart lately? yeah, here’s a heads up: if hepburn or gisele bundchen were to show up in aisle 5 you’d do a triple take. they absolutely blow away the average female.

    Duuuude, being hotter than the average woman at Wal-Mart is a very modest accomplishment.

    Peter

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  138. Duuuude, being hotter than the average woman at Wal-Mart is a very modest accomplishment.

    walmart is the biggest retail company in america. it’s a fairly representative slice of a large segment of american women. but the same would be true of nordstrom. hepburn and bundchen would be hotter than 80% of nordstrom shoppers.

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  139. the fashion models who go onto a VS career are atypical of the fashion industry. those VS girls are specifically chosen for their more womanly figures to model lingerie than the weirdo prepubescent boys that gays like to drape their fruity creations over on catwalks75% true Roissy

    Like


  140. hepburn and bundchen would be hotter than 80% of nordstrom shoppers.

    Which still leaves 20%. Should Gisele then make seven figures a year modeling when 20% of Nordstrom’s female shoppers are of equal or greater hotness?

    Like


  141. Adrinna Lima is better looking than Gisele but was pushed to do more commerical modeling. Heidi Klum is better looking too and was pushed to the commerical market.

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  142. Exactly and sometimes those looks are not conventional beauty but weird beauty like Karen Elson.

    Irrelevant.

    “The main point lost in all of this is that models, whether VS or high fashion, get publicity almost exclusively for their looks, not how good a comedienne they are or how good they can sing or how otherwise talented they are” . . .

    . . . so when a heterosexual man notices a model and thinks she is sexy, he will have noticed her purely for her looks, not because some other talent brought her to his attention.

    Jennifer Aniston was a genuinely cute 7 who got noticed by men because she was a talented comedienne and got pumped into everyone’s home week after week after week. Adriana Lima was a 10 who got noticed by men because . . . she was a 10. The _only_ reason she is famous is because she looks really good. The women and gay men who discovered her doubtless had their own reasons for pushing her forward, but they are irrelevant to why _heterosexual_ men picked her out from among the Karen Elson’s of the world and made her a superstar, again based solely on her looks. (BTW, don’t even try to tell me that it was her runway personality. When she first started doing VS shows she was _really_ shy.)

    Again, there are two parts to a woman doing well in the sexual marketplace:

    1. Looks
    2. Getting noticed

    Not Roissy, Thursday. He focuses on body first then face.

    You obviously don’t read with any attention. Roissy has repeatedly said that facial features are the major factor in what makes a woman good looking. He just doesn’t like fatties.

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  143. here’s a heads up: if hepburn or gisele bundchen were to show up in aisle 5 you’d do a triple take. they absolutely blow away the average female.

    yeah, it doesn’t take much to blow away the average female, as you yourself have noted in your “dating disparity” posts.

    all men agree on whether a particular woman is above or below a “5”, and most men will agree on any particular woman to within, say, three points on the scale. but that’s really about it.

    believe it or not, roissy, not all men’s sexual tastes are in lockstep with yours.
    in my view, gisele bundchen is a very plain-looking woman with unusually masculine facial features; if i did a triple take, the only precipitant of that triple-take would be her height (i like the challenge of a woman who’s my height or taller). to me she’s _at best_ a seven point five – and that only if she’s made-up and clothed well – and i’m not at all abnormal or anomalous.
    and i don’t think mu’min would even be that generous.

    i feel the same way about heidi klum, elle macpherson, and basically every other supermodel out there. i’d have to pop at least two xo’s before even thinking any of them would be worth looking at for more than two seconds, let alone lifting a finger for. in the main, i’m only attracted to women whose look, walk, and attitude projects sexuality.
    on the other hand, there are apparently lots of straight men to whom these supermodels are 10’s. that’s incomprehensible to me, but vive la différence. i’m glad we aren’t all fighting over the same pussy.

    so, yes, beauty, to an order of magnitude, is objective. but to argue that women can all be placed in a consistent order, which should hold for every normal straight man, is idiocy.

    Like


  144. i can’t think of any sex symbols with lackluster bodies.

    Audrey Hepburn
    Keira Knightley
    Shalom Harlow
    Kate Moss

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  145. Audrey Hepburn

    let’s try to stick to the modern era, please. it’s disingenuous to invoke examples from a time when there were completely different standards of beauty and femininity.
    thx.

    Keira Knightley
    Shalom Harlow
    Kate Moss

    well, yeah, but some people don’t think their bodies are lackluster.
    by “lackluster body” i mean “they would never be invited to pose mostly unclothed for men’s magazines”.

    Like


  146. For the last time, Roissy, I agree with you that beauty is objective. NOTHING I said in my comments in this thread denied or was intended to deny the objectivity of beauty.

    But your own commenters on this post and others do suggest that there are important variations in taste that ensure that one man’s beauty is another man’s hag. (Adriana de Lima is ugly? Not sexy? A sausage? Whaaaaaat?)

    Didn’t say nothin’ ’bout makeup either. I did mention clothes and carriage, but I made the point that these tend to be more important to women. They do have a subliminal effect on men, too, I suspect. To go back to Audrey – if she had presented herself as a Pamela Anderson sex-bomb, would she have appealed to Pam’s audience? Probably not, and what’s more, she probably wouldn’t have appealed nearly as much to the men and women who admire her as she actually was.

    If you insist on bringing this up again, I have said that very small changes in emphasis (regarding lips, skin etc.) brought about by changes like more or less money, health, changing racial consciousness, and so forth, may indeed affect the popularity of a certain kind of looks – and can ensure that a woman who is called a beauty in one generation looks odd (at first) to people of another. If they look long enough, however, they’ll usually realise that the beauty is there, after all.

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  147. Should Gisele then make seven figures a year modeling when 20% of Nordstrom’s female shoppers are of equal or greater hotness?

    at the far right tail of female beauty it’s a crapshoot which hottie gets the million dollar contract and which hottie pulls in six figures as a stripper.

    to me she’s _at best_ a seven point five

    7.5 is 2.5 points better than the average woman.

    believe it or not, roissy, not all men’s sexual tastes are in lockstep with yours.

    i never said it was lockstep. but i did say the vast majority of men’s taste in women is surprisingly uniform. a quick jaunt into a heated mixed gender social environment will establish that fact — nearly every man begins the night jonesing for the same three hot babes. only as the night wears on do the men sort themselves by their market value and begin touting the wonders of the lesser chicks with whom they have a shot at scoring.

    on the other hand, there are apparently lots of straight men to whom these supermodels are 10’s.

    fashion supermodels are not chosen with men’s boners in mind. for a true representation of what men like, you have to look at what they jerk to — playboy, porn, etc. — or buy tickets to — the female leads in movies that are marketed toward men.

    but to argue that women can all be placed in a consistent order, which should hold for every normal straight man, is idiocy.

    within one or two points max, female beauty as ranked by men is fairly consistent. when a bunch of guys start arguing over the relative hottie merits of gisele versus adrianna vs audrey, what you have is the equivalent of nerds arguing over the merits of two high end video cards. you’ve gotta keep perspective, and a big part of that perspective is stacking up your fave babes against the teeming masses of mediocre flabasses going about their daily dreary existences.

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  148. let’s try to stick to the modern era, please. it’s disingenuous to invoke examples from a time when there were completely different standards of beauty and femininity.

    What are you channelling Clio on a really bad day (not at her insightful best). I’ll just let Roissy handle this one.

    “and clio, for the last time, beauty is objective. science proves it, and if it weren’t objective, we wouldn’t even have a concept of beauty as every random jane would be in the running for alpha male attention. that is not what we have, now is it duck? there is no magical beauty scale that shifts from one decade to the next. those hollywood stars with the pouty lips were still pretty attractive compared to the typical woman of today, and as i’ve gone on ad nauseum with you, makeup standards do not the beauty standard make. it’s all about underlying facial bone structure.”

    The stars that were hot then are the stars that are hot today.

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  149. well, yeah, but some people don’t think their bodies are lackluster. by “lackluster body” i mean “they would never be invited to pose mostly unclothed for men’s magazines”.

    Playboy seriously considered a nude pictorial of Roseanne in the late 90s and she then ended up doing Gear. That proves that almost any A-list or B-list female celebrity could get in a men’s magazine if she wanted to.

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  150. There is something to the divergent tastes thing.

    I believe I have argued before here that some men respond only to really crude and obvious sexual signals in women and that this can result in divergent rankings of 2, sometimes in _extreme_ cases 3, points on the 10 point scale. But that is about it.

    Interesting to note that both the black men here, Mu and T., don’t much care for Gisele. I know N=2 isn’t much to go on, but still.

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  151. I think Gisele is definitely above average, and on the street she’d be a winner, but among famous women, I just don’t see her as being so exceptional. I think I can pick any show or telenovela on the Spanish channel and any random chick from the channel will be hotter.

    Like


  152. @sparks 123-check out the pictorial of Carnie Wilson.

    Shalom Harlow excellent runway waif model but the largest jaw ever seen on a real woman. Mitt Romney has nothing on her.

    Interesting to note that both the black men here, Mu and T., don’t much care for Gisele. I know N=2 isn’t much to go on, but still
    You only think she is hot because you see her on TV and the media fawn over her. She has a man’s face Thursday, just behonest with yourself. I bet Agnostic doesn’t find her attractive and he is mostaly white.

    Victoria Secret has much better looking models. goggle Ana Beatriz Barros, Jessica White & Audrey Quock.

    Like


  153. Mu &johhny5- check out goggle Carla Campbell
    <a http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=carla%20campbell%20pictures&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
    She has one of the best bodies in the modeling bussiness. Her chest is too full PA’s taste but I think you will enjoy.

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  154. Nice try little Chic. Always trying to convince men that they are “wrong” in whom they find attractive. BTW, TV etc. has pretty much zero influence on what men find attractive. If the media had its way, men would be falling over themselves for that old horseface, Sarah Jessica Parker.

    I bet Agnostic doesn’t find her attractive and he is mostaly white.

    Who cares? Agnostic thinks everyone except Mya looks like a trannie.

    Victoria Secret has much better looking models.

    My personal favourites are Alessandra Ambrosio, Aurelie Claudel and Morgane Dubled.

    Jessica White

    Please. Affirmative action for lingerie models. Replace with Selita Ebanks.

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  155. Victoria Secret has much better looking models. goggle Ana Beatriz Barros, Jessica White & Audrey Quock.

    There’s a lot of overlap between VS and the SI Swimsuit issue. The SI Swimsuit Issue isn’t as culturally relevant as it was during its 1970s and 1980s peak (blame internet porn), but the increase in model diversity has made it the best exhibition of female beauty that I can think of. Of course, I’m ignoring the gimmicky photo shoots of female athletes and male athletes’ wives.

    Like


  156. It occurs to me that it is possible that some of my White Brothers have deep social concerns about their ideal choice of mates. If my hunch is correct, they are certainly entitled to such a concern. But for me, I couldn’t really care less of what anyone thinks of who I find attractive, hot, sexy, or why.

    W/a few, and I mean few, glaring exceptions, the vast majority of “it” gals out there *do absolutely nothing for me, AT ALL*. Crystal Renn would get it before the long list of “it” names that have been rolled out here. So would Nigella Lawson. Or Serena Williams. Or Jennifer Hudson. Etc.

    So here again I must respectfully disagree with Roissy & Co.-there IS such a thing as diverging tastes in what Men deem beautiful/sexy. In no way do I knock his or anyone else’s shot-hey bruh, do you. But I’m sorry, I need some back, some thighs, a rack on all of that. And to a Brotha, those words take on a much different meaning than they do for the vast majority of the fellas here.

    Viva la difference.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  157. Sarah Jessica Parker is marked to women not men . Besides, she is Gieselle’s sister by another mother.

    Alessandra Ambrosio is cute but has a man’s jaw. Not as bad as Shalom Harlow but she is about two blocks away.

    Jessica White

    Please. Affirmative action for lingerie models. Replace with Selita Ebanks.
    Really, you think Selita Ebanks is better looking? I think they are really close but I hate Jessica’s nose job and she could stand to gain 10 pounds. I personally prefer Emanuela de Paula or Carla Campbell(best body)

    Who cares? Agnostic thinks everyone except Mya looks like a trannie.
    Ha, he and I agree a lot of the masculine look of many women in entertainment. Low body fat can make a pretty woman look manly as she ages. Look at Madonna’s arms and gaunt face for example.

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  158. Sparks- There’s a lot of overlap between VS and the SI Swimsuit issue
    For the most part, VS and SI use the same models.
    @Mu- Nigella Lawson has a small waist. A small waist is something many American women no longer have.

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  159. Chic,
    Yea, that “waspish” waist deal, its almost extinct status, is a true lament.

    Earlier J5 was talking about the differences between “pretty” and serious sex appeal-to me, Lawson clearly falls in the latter catergory. Something about her to me, says SEX. And unlike Madonna, who I’ve never been attracted to at all and is 50 herself, Lawson, nearly 50, is the bomb to me.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  160. Mu:

    I think that black men on average tend to have somewhat different tastes in women than white or asian guys. Not huuuuuge differences, but discernable ones. I suspect these differences in taste are influenced by genetics.

    Like


  161. Besides a preference for a fuller figure, what differences have you noticed Thursday.

    MuYea, that “waspish” waist deal, its almost extinct status, is a true lament
    Thursday, I hear white men complain about the lack of waists or hourglass figures among American women.

    Like


  162. MU
    You should check out her cooking show. The way she licks a spoon & moans as she is tasting her cooking will make you blow a load. Some have called her show food P0Rn. I love her show.

    Like


  163. Mu:

    It occurs to me that it is possible that some of my White Brothers have deep social concerns about their ideal choice of mates. If my hunch is correct, they are certainly entitled to such a concern. But for me, I couldn’t really care less of what anyone thinks of who I find attractive, hot, sexy, or why.

    I don’t think that is quite it.

    I can respect J5 when he says he likes what he likes. Similarly, I have no problem with someone like Agnostic saying that he finds Nelly Furtado’s face too masculine for his own taste. What is silly is when he pipes in the only reason Nelly Furtado is considered sexy is her body, when most men actually seem to like her for her face. That is a factual issue not a matter of individual taste.

    Another thing, some of the comparisons used are a little absurd. If someone were to say that he likes women with more of a defined waste than Adriana Lima, I don’t think that anyone would object. But does she really look anything like a sausage?

    The third thing I don’t like is when some of the women here try to bully the men into adopting their own “correct” views on women’s looks, when what women think of other women’s looks is pretty much irrelevant to what turns men on. When it comes to other women’s looks women are full of a lot of bull, and this kind of pointless mind mush needs to be slapped the hell down from time to time.

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  164. Chic,
    Yea, I’ve seen a few episodes *whew*

    Btw, did I ever mention that I’m something of a fan of cooking shows? Can’t cook alick myself, but I always enjoy watching the pros do it. Another guilty pleasure of mine.

    Salaam
    Mu

    Like


  165. What is silly is when he pipes in the only reason Nelly Furtado is considered sexy is her body, when most men actually seem to like her for her face.

    Furtado started off a folk-pop singer, the kind of genre where a pretty face would be far more important than a slammin’ body. It was during this time that she more seen as “cute” than “hot.”

    Like


  166. Emanuela de Paula

    Daaaaaaaaaamn.

    Most of the black models Chic links to are pretty ho hum, but I am glad to aquaint myself with exceptions like this.

    Like


  167. Everyone should take a look:

    Like


  168. Thursday (wasn’t that the name of one of the kids on the Addams Family??) wrote:

    “Again, there are two parts to a woman doing well in the sexual marketplace:

    1. Looks
    2. Getting noticed”

    The great 800 lb. gorilla of sex appeal that everyone is missing here is a woman’s personality.

    Sure, if you’re talking about masturbating to pictures of a woman on a TV or movie screen, or in a magazine, looks are indeed everything.

    And looks certainly *are* the most important factor to men — I’m hardly denying that. I’m not saying that a great personality, plus mediocre looks, sexual equal sexual attraction or a great relationship.

    What I do want to posit is that, when the rubber hits the road, at the end of the day, it is a woman’s *personality* that makes all the difference in the world in whether a guy feels sexually drawn to her. By “personality” I mean the vibe that she projects.

    If a woman is a 9 or 10 but has a dull, uninteresting, dry, or arrogant personality, that is an automatic attraction killer for me.

    With me, I need to see good looks to draw me in, but a great personality and a modicum of intelligence to close the deal.

    I just had 2 experiences with women, one in Germany with a Danish girl, who I consider about a 7 in looks, but a 10 in personality (including humor)… and the other in Moscow, with a girl who would probably be considered an 8 or 8.5 in looks (considering she’s almost a dead ringer for Angelina Jolie, plus much younger), but with a “3” personality.

    Guess which one I went for?

    Y’all seem to be pretending that looks are everything, and that fallacy will snare men in a trap, because it signals to women that they can attract men with shitty personalities (a la DC chicks), and in most cases, at least, that just ain’t the case.

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  169. Agnostic thinks everyone except Mya looks like a trannie.

    Someone has to uphold standards.

    the only reason Nelly Furtado is considered sexy is her body, when most men actually seem to like her for her face. That is a factual issue not a matter of individual taste.

    Maybe we’re talking about her at different points in her career. Early on, she had a fairly feminine face and didn’t play up her body. Since *Loose*, she’s had a severe face and has been all about flaunting her booty.

    She may have become famous when she looked more feminine, but she became a superstar when she emphasized her bubble butt.

    Anyway, the point was to offer the female counterpart of Vin Diesel, which is what you were wondering about. Vin Diesel doesn’t have a vomit-inducing face, it’s OK, but his body is a lot better. Same with the recent Nelly Furtado — face is all right, but body is way better.

    Like


  170. on December 29, 2008 at 12:56 am Comment_Question

    ****
    ‘Which underscores how much more important for men a woman’s facial structure is than her body. If you have a 10 face like Hepburn, your body doesn’t much matter.’

    absolutely true. facial bone structure is absolutely key and vastly more important than anything else
    ****
    People are aware that a woman’s breasts don’t tell you much about her current emotional state? About her opinion of you? Her personality in general?

    Now, wether because men spend more time watching a woman’s face, or combine the prettiness with the emotional subtext to create a ‘score’ they somehow believe only involves looks…. I don’t know. But to say ‘facial structure’ is the only thing your seeing in a woman’s face…… I mean REALLY.

    But a lot more than ‘facial structure’ is going on there.

    Like


  171. “so, yes, beauty, to an order of magnitude, is objective. but to argue that women can all be placed in a consistent order, which should hold for every normal straight man, is idiocy.”

    true but idiocy is too strong a term

    …as is ‘order of magnitude’

    beauty can be quantified to the extent that it will predict the likelihood of any given man choosing to fuck one chick over another with no other information

    as more variables are accounted for (personal, environmental) this predictive capacity will be enhanced… this scientific progression will continue ad infinitum

    the consistency depends on the strength of the model used for prediction.

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  172. after all

    the goal of science is to predict the future

    isn’t it?

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  173. I’m more of an alt-porn, real-girl, foreign-film-star, personalities-and-situations guy myself. The usual American sex-bomb types (Playboy girls, etc) have never done anything at all for me, though the early days of the SI Swimsuit issue were certainly a revelation.

    But it seems to me that SI and Victoria’s Secret both peaked long ago. Everything they’ve done for years now seems over-manufactured and hard as nails to me.

    Here’s what seems to me to have some of the sweetness, freshness and likableness of early SI and early VS: Wicked Weasel, an Aussie bikini-and-lingerie maker.

    Is anyone else an early Laetitia Casta fan? Lordy.

    Like


  174. Michael, Laetitia Casta was ultra hot in her early twenties. A perfect femininely proportioned curvy and lean body. A beautiful feminine face.

    By the way, a good example of a not-so-hot actress in the female lead role in a romantic role in a pure, unadulterated chick flick was Hilary Swank in P.S. I Love You.

    Hilary Swank does have a hot body but not one that puts her anywhere near the top of the list of female celebrities. Hers is somewhat too athetic for that. Hilary’s face is her major weakness. It surely wasn’t a co-incidence that she was selected to play the main character in Boys Don’t Cry. A skilled actress no doubt, but not one of the hottest female celebrities out there.

    Like


  175. Here’s what seems to me to have some of the sweetness, freshness and likableness of early SI and early VS: Wicked Weasel, an Aussie bikini-and-lingerie maker.

    my first thought after clicking on “models”:
    “wow, now this certainly wouldn’t fly in the states. they’re all white.”

    my second thought:
    “not bad.”

    — MU ALERT —

    truth be told, though, the perfect bodies for me are in the Smooth Girl editions of Smooth magazine.
    y’all know i don’t believe in 10’s. so this gets an 11.
    sweet god.

    Like


  176. — The usual American sex-bomb types (Playboy girls, etc) have never done anything at all for me

    I can relate. For one, I never “got” the Pamela Anderson thing. In fact, the fake boobies are cringe-inducing way deep in the gut for me. The scalpel, the pushing aside of internal lipid tissue, the insertion of two goey foreign objects, and the sewing-up. Then, there is the grotesque look of prosthetic boobs with a stretched, desensitized skin. Then, she removed the fake boobies. Then, I believe she put them back in.

    Unless it’s a loved one who underwent reconstructive surgery after an accident or cancer, synthetically erogeneous zones are gross.

    The Playboy girls: as a horny young lad on womanless overseas Army assignments, I liked the early ’90s Playboys. The girls still had that “innocent” look, some kind of a personality was discernable in thier faces, their boobs were rarely out of proportion with their frame, and their bushes were lovely, rich, nicely trimmed upside-down triangles. No tatoos or wierd piercings back then. As the decade wore on, the Centerfolds started taking on an airbrushed, synthetic quality.

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  177. The Playboy girls: as a horny young lad on womanless overseas Army assignments, I liked the early ’90s Playboys. The girls still had that “innocent” look, some kind of a personality was discernable in thier faces, their boobs were rarely out of proportion with their frame, and their bushes were lovely, rich, nicely trimmed upside-down triangles. No tatoos or wierd piercings back then. As the decade wore on, the Centerfolds started taking on an airbrushed, synthetic quality.

    Well spoken. I remember having seen Playboy mags from the ’80s. The models used to be smoking hot, natural and feminine. Some of the photos were even artistically high level with the lightning and all skillfully emphasizing the natural beauty of the model. And yes, there was often a spark of personality to them.

    Judging by the covers of today’s porn magazines, there is a tendency to make the models look like plastic dolls. I’m puzzled at how print porn can survive at all given the ubiquitous access to soon exabytes of material of similarly low quality online.

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  178. on December 29, 2008 at 10:28 am ironrailsironweights

    The Playboy girls: as a horny young lad on womanless overseas Army assignments, I liked the early ’90s Playboys. The girls still had that “innocent” look, some kind of a personality was discernable in thier faces, their boobs were rarely out of proportion with their frame, and their bushes were lovely, rich, nicely trimmed upside-down triangles.

    If only there were time machines …

    Peter

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  179. Roissy –
    Are you trying to pick up your niece?

    This post is priceless in finally proving that PUA-isms are a bunch of childishness.

    Like


  180. Yes, if you want to get some idea of what that girl you lust after at work or at school or you just seeing walking around really looks like naked, which is what all guys wonder about a girl they find attractive, you are more likely to find that in older Playboy models: early 90’s or before. The earlier the models, the more realistic to actual woman they are. Now they are all so fake looking it is ridiculous. Few females really look like that.

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  181. Clio,

    I find all of the women you mentioned in your post beautiful in a sexual way. I would love to fuck each and every one of them. Of course I would love to fuck you too, Clio, especially given that you are so elusive, and therefore you trigger my hunter instincts big time.

    And the only man who would find a woman beautiful in a non sexual way is the type of man otherwise known as a homosexual. If we find a woman beautiful, we want to have sex with her. It is that simple.

    Like


  182. Richard Feynman pretty much came to the same conclusion after he learned his form of the ‘game psychology’. He wrote about it in his Book, ‘Surely You are Joking Mr. Feynman”. If you are not familiar with him, he was a pretty worldly guy.. from working the Manhattan Project to playing in bands in Brazil, to running game in Vegas.. oh yeah.. that and coming up with the most accurate theory of physics currently available…
    ——————————————————————–
    “OK,” he says. “The whole principle is this: The guy wants to be a gentleman. He doesn’t want to be thought of as impolite, crude, or especially a
    cheapskate. As long as the girl knows the guy’s motives so well, it’s easy to steer him in the direction she wants him to go.
    “Therefore,” he continued, “under no circumstances be a gentleman! You must disrespect the girls. Furthermore, the very first rule is, don’t buy a
    girl anything–not even a package of cigarettes–until you’ve asked her if she’ll sleep with you, and you’re convinced that she will, and that she’s not
    lying.”
    “Uh . . . you mean . . . you don’t . . . uh . . . you just ask them?”
    “OK,” he says, “I know this is your first lesson, and it may be hard for you to be so blunt. So you might buy her one thing–just one little
    something–before you ask. But on the other hand, it will only make it more difficult.”
    Well, someone only has to give me the principle, and I get the idea. All during the next day I built up my psychology differently: I adopted the
    attitude that those bar girls are all bitches, that they aren’t worth anything, and all they’re in there for is to get you to buy them a drink, and they’re not
    going to give you a goddamn thing; I’m not going to be a gentleman to such worthless bitches, and so on. I learned it till it was automatic. ”
    —————————————————————–
    He then later tries this on a ‘normal girl’ and gets the same result… its pretty hilarious if you ask me.
    ——————————————————————
    “So it worked even with an ordinary girl! But no matter how effective the lesson was, I never really used it after that. I didn’t enjoy doing it that ”
    way. But it was interesting to know that things worked much differently from how I was brought up. ”
    ——————————————————————

    Cheers

    Like


  183. Joe T and agnostic

    If I may relate your two posts for a moment:

    Joe’s
    “… lack of self-esteem of American women. For it is the root cause of all our broblems.

    I lay it at the doorstep of American turbo-capitalism, which instills nagging feelings of anomie and material desire in people, and a ridiculous level of competitiveness.

    and agnostic’s

    Another lesson — material prizes aren’t worth as much as things that tickle her imagination. I.e., no buying flowers, rings, $100 drinks, etc.

    My nephew would rather play with cardboard boxes, spatulas, and the colander, than the singing colorful toys he just got for Christmas.

    Self esteem comes form doing the right thing or accomplishments. Women are actively discouraged from taking any personal accountability and doing anything worthwhile (they are often to happy to indulge so not innocent). They read Cosmo and think self esteem comes from convincing yourself to feel a certain way. This is seen in our school where children here feel better than Korean students about their math ability while the actual ability lags far behind the Koreans.

    Agnostic is right that you can’t buy her affection(although many women are just looking for a sugar daddy, he doesn’t hold their interest they just use him). Deep down, the buying of gifts and dinners does not satisfy her need for meaning and a deeper face to face connection with other humans. All this consumerism and trivial entertainment is a distraction from the main event: experiencing life.

    When women watch TV or shop as a hobby or eat cheeto after cheeto without thinking, they are just trying to escape the anomie. The obesity prevalence, the narcissistic personality disorders, the debt most Americans carry(linked largely to women shopping for junk), the plastic surgery attempts to stop the clock are all related to this.

    Just as feminism has left women holding an empty bag of goods, the TV world of buying useless crap and fake relationships has created a void in women’s souls. Men too but not the same extent as most TV and marketing are directed as women since it is easier to appeal to raw emotions to get people to part with money. And once they are out of their early 20s men seem able to resist much better and realize the point of making money was originally to attract a wife and maintain a family.

    I agree on the expensive toys. My kids have more fun playing with a stick in the backyard or chasing each other around. Shiny new toys they had begged for are quickly forgotten once acquired.

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  184. Shiny new toys they had begged for are quickly forgotten once acquired.

    unless they’re electronic.

    Like


  185. If we find a woman beautiful, we want to have sex with her. It is that simple.

    speak for yourself, sir. as a few of us have noted above, it’s quite possible for a woman to be “pretty” or even “beautiful” without eliciting a hint of sexual desire.

    Like


  186. Yes, three year-olds are like that. We have a society to make people to grow the fuck out of it.

    Like


  187. 9746why not get paid 4 free

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  188. ThursdayWhat is silly is when he pipes in the only reason Nelly Furtado is considered sexy is her body, when most men actually seem to like her for her face.

    I have to agree with Agnostic. I think Nelly Furtado is pretty but her face is very masculine looking. Her eyes are deep set for a woman. Her forehead looks like the forehead of a man. Her face is overall very chiseled for a woman’s face.

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  189. AgnosticMaybe we’re talking about her at different points in her career. Early on, she had a fairly feminine face and didn’t play up her body

    Okay, I thought I was the only person to notice this. Somehow her face became much more chiseled between albums 2&3.

    Thursaday- Who is ho hum?

    Like


  190. MB Is anyone else an early Laetitia Casta fan? Lordy

    Me me me. She has held up well. She has what I would call a real woman’s body btw.

    PA
    I can relate. For one, I never “got” the Pamela Anderson thing. In fact, the fake boobies are cringe-inducing way deep in the gut for me

    Pam’s first set were okay. They were somewhat natural looking c-cups.

    @Agnostic- what is it about Mya that gets you going?

    Like


  191. PAI liked the early ’90s Playboys. The girls still had that “innocent” look, some kind of a personality was discernable in thier faces, their boobs were rarely out of proportion with their frame, and their bushes were lovely, rich, nicely trimmed upside-down triangles. No tatoos or wierd piercings back then. As the decade wore on, the Centerfolds started taking on an airbrushed, synthetic quality

    COsign
    I don’t like the fake overly airbrushed look either.

    Like


  192. Epic comment mandy

    When women watch TV or shop as a hobby or eat cheeto after cheeto without thinking, they are just trying to escape the anomie. The obesity prevalence, the narcissistic personality disorders, the debt most Americans carry(linked largely to women shopping for junk), the plastic surgery attempts to stop the clock are all related to this.

    Just as feminism has left women holding an empty bag of goods, the TV world of buying useless crap and fake relationships has created a void in women’s souls. Men too but not the same extent as most TV and marketing are directed as women since it is easier to appeal to raw emotions to get people to part with money. And once they are out of their early 20s men seem able to resist much better and realize the point of making money was originally to attract a wife and maintain a family
    That chunk deserves a second and third look.

    Like


  193. when your consciousness is the size of a golf ball, the whole world appears to be the size of a golf ball.

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