Thought Experiment

Which male in the following list is more likely to be an absolute failure with women?:

  • a felon
  • a drug dealer
  • a dumb meathead
  • an unemployed DJ
  • a jerk
  • a computer programmer nerd

Don’t think too hard about this.  Go with your gut reaction, not the socially sanctioned, peer reviewed answer you want to be true.

What does your answer say to you?

*Update

Too easy.  Let’s raise the ante with a tougher comparison:

  • convicted serial killers who have killed, dismembered, and refrigerated body parts and sexually violated the corpses
  • a computer programming nerd who makes enough money to comfortably provide for a family of four in a leafy suburb

maybe they’d find love if they weren’t such social misfits…





Comments


  1. Anything with “nerd” as a description goes to the top of the list as mostly likely to fail.

    Funny. I was picking up cologne at sephora this weekend when a really hot girl was hovering nearby on the phone complaining about her boyfriend. She described him as, “an ass, smokes too much weed, stupid, lazy, and unemployed.” She wanted to break up with him but in her words, “he was so hot.” Coincidence? I think not.

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  2. on August 2, 2007 at 1:41 pm de tocqueville

    Easily the nerd.

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  3. Women of a certain age (say high school through a couple of years past graduating college, namely, 16-24 years old) don’t want stability in their lives. They want excitement, which they find with the first five types of guys listed by Roissy. It is only when they’re ready to settle down that they would even consider the computer programmer nerd, and only then because he can provide a steady income that would allow her to have kids/not work.

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  4. yeah, then after they settle down they can get some on the side while their husband is at work sifting through code.

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  5. Well, your admonition against socially sanctioned answers guides our responses to the nerd. Also, we already know from reading you that the world is invariably cruel to the weak and awkward. I hope this is a trick question with a surprise answer.

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  6. Nerd, until the woman is 30 and needs to settle down after spending her 20’s being pumped and dumped (or pumping and dumping herself on the path to cougardom).

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  7. drug dealer for the win

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  8. i actually know several drug dealing computer programmer nerds.
    bottom line: being socially retarded makes it hard to get laid.

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  9. I’m not so quick to say nerd. I think there’s a good number of white women who wouldn’t touch a felon, especially, if it is for a “harder” crime. In contrast, in a minority or poor white neighbourhood, the felon has much greater buying power.

    It is only when they’re ready to settle down that they would even consider the computer programmer nerd, and only then because he can provide a steady income that would allow her to have kids/not work.

    Thanks to changes in social mores, upper middle class white women with money can have kids via the sperm bank, thus giving birth to the alpha’s children by filtering for “good” sperm, and she no longer needs the beta to since she earns enough to pay for nannies and other affiliated caretakers. Those types of women can afford to hold out for the alpha.

    Nerd, until the woman is 30 and needs to settle down after spending her 20’s being pumped and dumped (or pumping and dumping herself on the path to cougardom).

    The meathead with cash is probably much more tolerable, especially if he has a union job or works as uniformed civil servant. As long as there’s no wife beating, she’ll put up with him since he’ll probably make more than the nerd will in some cases.

    Besides, we need more cougars so we can have more easy sex. 🙂

    bottom line: being socially retarded makes it hard to get laid.

    That’s the best assessment that I’ve seen here in the post so far.

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  10. on August 2, 2007 at 3:43 pm Steve Lurkel

    I’m with Irina on this one.

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  11. David Alexander:
    You’re lame. And a little too caught up in the alpha/beta ranking. I’m a black woman, I’m really good looking, and went to a top 20 school. So did most of my friends. And we don’t date thugs, or felons. We’re not fat, and weren’t raised in the projects. So, just chill out with the whole, “Black women” rant. There are tons of us out there, and statistically, we’ll make more money than you will.

    Ironically, most of us (myself included) date white, latino, and asian men. Black men in certain social and economic circles REALLY don’t date black women. So we date whoever asks us out. Mainly b/c they’re around, and don’t have an issue with dating black women. And they’re hot. Male model hot. And employed (my last boyfriend was an i-banker). In fact, in terms of “quality”, it is much easier to get a decent guy in a lot of other ethnicities, than to try to find black men who date black women. The people who have had the strongest reaction to my relationships? My black male friends, who usually dated white women. While they always said I was gorgeous, they maintained the viewpoint that they didn’t date black women period. I was fine with that, until I dated one of their white male friends, and then it was a problem. Suddenly, one even asked why I couldn’t find a “brother” (his girlfriend’s name was Caitlan, and she was white). It was like I instantly became a woman, instead of just their friend. I had to be “pre-approved” by a white man for me to pass some sort of clearance test as a datable black woman. I still hang out with them sometimes (we go way back), but the experience totally changed my opinon on black men “preferring” white women, vs. needing a status clearance.

    If you can’t find a decent black woman, then you’re probably not all that good of a catch. There are way more black women than men in all of those high school A.P. classes, college econ courses, and jobs. Trust me, I was/am there.

    I just started reading this blog though, so maybe David’s opinion is the status quo here.

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  12. Grace,

    you sound SO hot, my name is VK, and I’m all about it because it’s all pink on the inside. We should talk.

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  13. No, David’s the self-hating loser – the “woman-hating beta”, if you will.

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  14. mm – heh. although ted bundy seems to have done especially well for himself with the ladies. what a ladykiller! *groan*

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  15. scott petersen is currently cleaning house with dumpy, midwestern death-row groupies.

    sociopaths are, by nature, emotionally unavailable, which tends to awaken a woman’s inner carrie bradshaw.
    or, i dunno, women with daddy issues who will settle for any form of attention, even if it involves a carpet knife.

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  16. the nerd.

    Oh yeah, and Grace…respect.

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  17. LOL @ Virgle Kent.

    David’s not a woman hating beta, he sounds like he’s on the omega level, because some of the stuff he says is hilarious.

    He could also be an undercover Neil Strauss type collecting gems for a NYT best-selling book.

    He seems a little too perfect an example to be real.

    To be honest, I prefer white women not because of any inherent qualities they’re thought to have better, but just because they have lighter skin. I’ve felt the social stigma of having dark skin in the US and I’m not dark at all. Even with a deep tan from riding my bike into work everyday I’m more light reddish brown (native american, scandivian, russian, scotch, irish, ftw?) than anything else. Plus white girls, seem more of a challenge, because given a white guy and darker skinned guy, all things being equal who do you think is going to get chosen?

    It says I’m so good, I can date across class/racial/lines, so I must really be something.

    On the other hand for white males it would seem like a good idea to date dark skinned females. Expands the gene pool and mixed females seems to be considered more attractive than average everything else taken into consideration.

    Something I have noticed dating white girls is that they all have weird genetic “disorders.” Not down syndrome type, but all sorts of weird recessive things popping up like being allergic to non-skinned fruit (xxxx-berries), but not skinned (bananas, oranges). Higher rates of cystic fibrosis and all these other weird things. They’re always getting sick and overall seem to have a lot more health issues than mixed or black people.

    This is especially seen in the rise of autism among whites (although I did not seen any mention comparing relative rates in populations broken down demographically).

    I can’t remember the last time I got sick from an infection or virus, even when I drank the water from my water bottle that I left on my bike too long without cleaning which had black shit growing all in it.

    At school I lived in suite with 6 people. Everyone would get sick and be dying and vomiting and I’d just be chilling. I didn’t ever get sick a single time in college, even after the scoring a try in rugby and having to chug the boot.

    This is of course anecdotal and most of the white girls I’ve dated are originally from the south, and have a family history of genetic bad things happening.

    I don’t think the sickness thing has a lot to do with race as economic factors. If you’re well-off getting sick isn’t that bad. If you’re one of those 42 million uninsured people getting sick can mean death. People well off economically als live much more sanitized lives in their youths as reported by the media, but I’m too lazy too look up the articles on super bugs and anti-biotic abuse and what not.

    My mom refused to give me anything but the required vaccinations and I never ever got a flu vaccine

    I’m going to with serial killer for an answer.

    It’s not the computer programmer part that ruins it. It’s the nerd part. Anything with nerd or geek automatically loses it, because it limits who you can attract. An i-banker will make more money than you and most likely be an ex-football player alpha male (ex.s george & mitt romney). The effects of that will be limited by that fact that once you’re talking about those sort of income levels, marriages are much more “arranged” than someone at the 100K level. This essentially means you will be limited to attractive women not in the social register. Those will probably end up with the equivalent guys as they attempt to climb up the social ladder.

    What does the geek end up with? A 4-7 girl, who figures it’s time to settle down and it’s too risky waiting much longer.

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  18. You’re lame.

    Thank you. You’re much too kind.

    And a little too caught up in the alpha/beta ranking.

    Yes, I’m much too fixated on it, mind you, the this blog’s owner has posts categorized into Alpha and Beta, so I’m not the only one. I’ve spent nearly all of my life being the outsider, and the dynamics of the male elite to its non-elite and outsider counterparts has always been interesting to me.

    I’m a black woman, I’m really good looking, and went to a top 20 school. So did most of my friends. And we don’t date thugs, or felons. We’re not fat, and weren’t raised in the projects. So, just chill out with the whole, “Black women” rant. There are tons of us out there, and statistically, we’ll make more money than you will.

    Congratulations to you on your efforts in succeeding. 🙂

    I grew up in a mostly black working and middle class neighbourhood, and I went to schools that had sizeable, but not majority black student bodies. From my experiences, there were some beautiful black women from both the US and Caribbean, but most of the black women that I have met have been unattractive to me. There have been a few black women who I’ve found attractive, but most other black women have been either beautiful, but too ghetto for my tastes, or nice, but just not physically attractive.

    I probably have over hyped the issue at hand, and yes, all black women do not date thugs and felons, nor do all black people grow up in the projects. I should know first hand since I grew up in a house and a backyard in the outskirts of Queens, and I went to Catholic school for almost twenty years with similar students from that same demographic. Admittedly, poorer black women are more likely to date thugs and felons because in poorer environments, that’s the type of man that’s available. Middle and upper middle class black women like yourself do not necessarily date any black man that magically appears, but since I’ve read that there are many black women who are uninterested in dating outside of the race, there are plenty of lonely, single black women due to the disparities in achievement between black men and women.

    Just from my own anecdotal evidence of my three closest female cousins, all three are working, and two of them have college degrees, yet all three of them have been unable to find a boyfriend at their social milieus, and they’ve refused to date outside of their race.

    I’m also well aware of the fact that black women earn considerably more on average than their male counterparts, and it’s one of the tragedies of black society in the United States. It’s quite sad.

    Ironically, most of us (myself included) date white, latino, and asian men.

    That’s rather interesting since I’ve met plenty of white males who don’t find black women attractive, regardless of the features. Others who seem interested have also said that they find black women just seemed unreceptive to their advances.

    If you can’t find a decent black woman, then you’re probably not all that good of a catch. There are way more black women than men in all of those high school A.P. classes, college econ courses, and jobs. Trust me, I was/am there.

    I’m well aware of the fact that I’m certainly not a good catch, and that most women can AND will do better than me. I’m a washed up 23 year old male, it’s not that hard to do better than me. The women who can’t do better than me, I don’t want them.

    You are correct on the fact that there are more black women then men in school and work, and even in my low income workplace, black women outnumber black men easily. At my community college, in nearly every class that I took, the black females outnumbered the male, with the possibly exception of my macro class where the numbers were at parity. Like I stated earlier, of the women that I’ve met, only one or two of them were really attractive to me, one who was dark skinned. petite, and chubby, and the other who was slightly light skinned, average height and weight. The rest fell under the two other categories that I mentioned above.

    As for the men who discovered your value after they saw you with a white man,

    I just started reading this blog though, so maybe David’s opinion is the status quo here.

    I am the biggest outlier of the group here, and my opinions are not the mainstream voice here.

    No, David’s the self-hating loser – the “woman-hating beta”, if you will.

    Yes, I am the ultimate self-hating loser and playa hater, but I am a woman-hating beta. I just want my legalized prostitution, and maybe I’ll be content with some aspect of my life.

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  19. The convicted serial killer is most likely to attract women who have been abused and have other mental issues. The nerd will attract women looking for a fast track to the suburbs and babies.

    Between those two, I’d say the serial killer is more likely to be a failure. He’s just too broken, dangerous, and poor to attract more women than the guy who can subsidize SAHM lifestyle which is very appealing to some women. Of course, this presumes that the serial killer has been convicted and out on parole.

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  20. This probably sounds a bit harsh, but DA, you make me feel a lot better about myself.

    Most of my problems are arising from the fact that the college Bohemian lifestyle (and girlfriends) ends when you’ve finally got your Master’s degree in something useless, no real job prospects, progressive platitudes now grow tiresome and you begin to push 30. At least I’m not bitter and got a few huzzahs in.

    I just wish I got more sex while it lasted… damn youthful idealism. Now I feel somewhat like those skeezy guys who hang around college bars and troll for naive undergrads with hackneyed intellectualism.

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  21. David Alexander, you’re really good at one thing as far as I can tell — self flagellation.

    I call nom de guerre on David Alexander. Although, the safety of the internet can make anyone seem brave, I doubt anybody like David Alexander would go post on blog like this just to reinforce his already low self-esteem.

    1) Look at his use of punctuation and grammar. Does that look like the writing of a 23-year old community college washout?

    2) Look at the way he formulates his arguments. There’s a distinctive style that smacks of college writing courses. His paragraphs and writing have an overall structure as well.

    3) He used the word milieu.

    4) He starts his sentences with adverbs.

    5) He spells neighborhood, “neighbourhood”. I’m sorry that’s only a pretentious mac user would do that (only half kidding).

    6) He refers to his job as a “low income workplace”. I’m sorry, poor and likely uneducated people don’t refer to their jobs like that.

    7) He makes one typo in the entire post. He hits a period, instead of a comma, when between petite and chubby.

    I call high school student or college student in a technical degrees, with a deficient social life, and too much time to be blogging.

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  22. Now come on, Roissy. I’ve never claimed I make enough for a family of four to live in a leafy suburb.

    Nullp0inter, while I appreciate your witchhunting of sock puppets, don’t underestimate the primacy of college dropouts just because they use words with extra vowels. It’s quite possible he takes genuine pride in the word usements he structures to engage in a hearty spell-check. Note also that a knack for self-flagellation apparently earns you the right to sit in a special chair around these parts. Instead mock him for his thorough fisking of an inane comment, whining for maximal pathetic effect. on a website that primarily revolves around gay sex in or around the houses of our nation’s founders.

    For fuck’s sake.

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  23. By definition, I’m a nerd. Whatever. Winning women is not a problem. The problem is, I’m too smart to fall for a woman and have far too many strategies to win anyone I want. This week I’ll go out and date the most wanted girl outside my circle of community whom I know just because I can.

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  24. I call high school student or college student in a technical degrees, with a deficient social life, and too much time to be blogging.

    I don’t serve as a sockpuppet for any of the posters here, nor am I making up any of self-deprecating references. For some reason, expressing my self in terms of my failings seems more comforting than expressing any of my positive attributes. I am a pessimistic community college washup who once in a past life was an honour student at a Catholic High school that managed to be ranked by US News and World Report. Basically, I bounced around primarily because I was no longer forced into doing the work and going to class, and my lies would cover up anything since nobody was reporting to mother and father. In effect, I’m failed former engineering student, and failing political science/urban studies major stuck at a community college that I’ve slowly starting to despise despite the school being overloaded with hot women. After roughly 7 years, I only have 62 credits to show as achievement because I took so many classes over, failed or received Ws for many classes where I simply didn’t show up, or I simply didn’t do the work. In effect, I’m a failed nerd or a loser.

    Self flagellation is rather soothing, and it’s the alternative to blaming others for my troubles. After a while, it feels soothing to describe myself in the negative. It’s easier much easier to blame myself and point to my own faults and failings to explain my own inferiority. Due to my low income and low educational attainment, I’ve chosen to avoid competing for women, and avoid making friends to replace the new ones since I don’t have much to offer and nobody would want to be my friend. Anybody who choses to be my friend at this point in my life obviously has some issues, and I’d rather be alone than be reminded of my inferiority. Once I finish school and make $45K, then maybe I can consider having friends again.

    As for my income level, if I worked full time, my salary would be equivalent to $22K gross pay. In the New York Metro area, that’s certainly low income work, and most of my co-workers in my department earn around the same amount. I work there because I like the environment, and because it’s better than working retail which is harder and for much less money.

    If you’re wondering why phone-based customer service is awful, it’s because the pay is around the $9-$11/hr range which attracts bored college students or those who unqualified for better work.

    The last line about having a deficient social life and having too much time for blogging is correct.

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  25. david alexander (AKA shell entity):
    The convicted serial killer is most likely to attract women who have been abused and have other mental issues.

    the male archetypes i listed all have one thing in common which the nerd does not have.
    dominance.
    and that is why they get laid and the nerd doesn’t.

    Between those two, I’d say the serial killer is more likely to be a failure.

    if you examined the sexual histories of 20 random serial killers and 20 random computer programmers odds are good the serial killers would have slept with many more women than the programmers.
    way more.

    nullpointer:
    I call nom de guerre on David Alexander.

    seconded.
    my bullshit detector is telling me DA is a put-on.
    either he’s a social science performance artist, or he’s a headcase who gets off on the attention.

    jewcano, giving me shit:
    on a website that primarily revolves around gay sex in or around the houses of our nation’s founders.

    it was a reenactment!

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  26. Oddly, I was attempting to think in terms of who’d be able to get married, not in terms of who’d be able score the most women. It was quite foolish on my part.

    The men that you’ve listed aren’t high status men, nor do they seem dominant unless you’re discounting most other men, and like others have said, the big advantage that most of them have is that they’re all more likely to be sociable men. Then men that you’ve listed are lacking in the income factor, and their only hook with women is the fact that they’re sociable and in some cases, exciting.

    my bullshit detector is telling me DA is a put-on.
    either he’s a social science performance artist, or he’s a headcase who gets off on the attention.

    As I’ve said before, I’m not a sockpuppet, and I will admit that I certainly do enjoy the attention that I get from ranting.

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  27. Nullp0inter:

    The sickliness and allergy-proneness of whtie girls you describe is unlikely to be symptom of any kind of inbreeding or recessive genes.

    It’s much morel likely a result of a particlular style of middle class childraising, which emphasizes sterile levels of house cleanliness, no breastfeeding, etc.

    This contributes to the frailties you describe.

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  28. The problem with your analogy is that the computer nerd wouldn’t go out with the kind of woman who would write to a convicted felon. The computer nerd can’t get the woman he wants, or what he thinks he “deserves.” The felon will take anything. It’s not like all women are sleeping with you or not, and there is no difference between them. (Well, not for most men, after high school, anyway).

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  29. nullp0inter

    “It says I’m so good, I can date across class/racial/lines, so I must really be something. [re: dating white women]”

    Who in the world do you think you’d be impressing? What third-party do you think would put you in high regards because your woman is white? In my experience, only losers offer propers for that, i.e. fucked-in-the-head minorities. Who cares about them?

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  30. Just want to be clear that “who cares about them?” refers to specifically fucked-in-the-head minorities, not just minorities in general (since I am one). If you’re a minority and you willingly participate in the overvaluing of white people, then you’re the epitome of pathetic.

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  31. DA:
    The men that you’ve listed aren’t high status men,

    status in relative. the drug dealer might not do as well as a i-banker in the lobby of goldman sachs, but within his environment he cleans up.
    remember that the i-banker and the drug dealer share a very important trait – a masculine dominating personality.
    that is what draws in the pussy.

    dizzy:
    The problem with your analogy is that the computer nerd wouldn’t go out with the kind of woman who would write to a convicted felon.

    so certain are you?
    some of those GFs of the serial killers were pretty hot.

    The felon will take anything.

    actually, the felons are quite discerning.
    drive around a bad ‘hood at 1 in the afternoon and notice the hot babes in the arms of the unemployed badasses hanging out on porches and street corners.
    they aren’t doing too bad for themselves.

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  32. This is not all that challenging. Serial killers will be more successful with women. Reason being that their crimes are motivated by power and sex, caused by early childhood abuse of one form or another. They are charming and pleasant in public as a means of misleading those around them from their true nature and intentions. In other words, they are the archetypical alphas…wait, what?

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  33. “…remember that the i-banker and the drug dealer share a very important trait – a masculine dominating personality.
    that is what draws in the pussy.”

    True but I would have swapped trader with i-banker. Some of the most successful players I know are traders, an occupation that requires a dominating personality, charisma, and boat loads of confidence [or arrogance]. i-Bankers suffer from an inferiority complex and work such long hours they don’t develop social skills to the extent that people might think. Traders don’t work nearly as long and at the end of the day, make more bank.

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  34. Dude, what is up with people leaving whole novellas in your comments? Just be succinct, folks;

    Q: Who ain’t gettin’ laid?
    A: The people leaving 2000 word op ed columns.

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  35. df – good point. i was just thinking of some i-bankers i know and they are emotional basketcases.

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  36. actually, the felons are quite discerning.
    drive around a bad ‘hood at 1 in the afternoon and notice the hot babes in the arms of the unemployed badasses hanging out on porches and street corners.
    they aren’t doing too bad for themselves.

    That’s because in the ‘hood, in many cases, those felons are the only males available, especially since in many poor neighbourhoods, male unemployment rates are low and criminality rates are high due to poor educational attainment. The nerds have either moved out, or if they’re still in those neighbourhoods, they are uninterested in the type of woman who dates felons.

    remember that the i-banker and the drug dealer share a very important trait – a masculine dominating personality.
    that is what draws in the pussy.

    To be an i-banker or drug dealer requires a type of alpha male personality that’s not afraid of taking risks, and that in turn leads to their ability to charm and attract women. Also, both jobs also usually attract men who are very flashy about their incomes…

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  37. That should be male unemployment rates are “high”…

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  38. The problem with your analogy is that the computer nerd wouldn’t go out with the kind of woman who would write to a convicted felon. The computer nerd can’t get the woman he wants, or what he thinks he “deserves.”

    The problem is that among women who meet at least a minimal sense of decency, which would eliminate those who would write to a convicted felon, there may be none at all who would consider dating the nerd. It is not unreasonable for the nerd to have some standards. Unfortuantely, his “Dating Market Value” may be so low on account of nerdiness that even very modest standards (e.g. no drug addicts, lunatics, etc) may be too high.

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  39. The dilemma that Peter brings up is why we need legalized prostitution. I’d suspect that many of the nerds would be able to afford prostitutes on a continual basis, and that nerds would flock to prostitutes instead of complaining on the internet about how women don’t like them. $100 with a safe and legal prostitute would be much better and easier than failing miserably in the marketplace of sex.

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  40. *That should have been $100/hr to $200/hr with a safe and legal prostitute…

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  41. Going back to serial killers, my sense is that most aren’t the dominating types. Charming Alphas like Ted Bundy or Tom Cruize’s character in “American Psycho” seem the outliers. More typically, they are usually described as creepy loners, as quiet guys who pay thier rent on time. Most seem to fit the profile of an ultra-nerd.

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  42. Tom Cruize in “American Psycho”? LOL

    You do mean the greatest actor of all time, Christian Bale don’t you?

    The best part about that movie is that there is no catharsis. The book is even better.

    I have to admit, I learned alot from that movie. The importance of a business card, what sort of male beauty products to use, how to shave without it burning so hard.

    Real good stuff to know.

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  43. Yeah, I know it’s Cruise not Cruize.

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  44. on August 8, 2007 at 9:45 pm antimatter762

    I would phrase the question like this: who has more poon pulling power, the above average male, or the infamous serial killer ? Answer: the infamous serial killer, due to his infamy.

    All women are groupies to varying degrees.

    Women view the world according to social terms. They view men as social objects/characters and are attracted to those that are more famous/infamous/powerful within the world she inhabits. The man’s psychological and physical traits (ie who he really is) are largely incidental to what women are really attracted to.

    This is why the infamous serial killer, despite possessing an extreme set of supposed woman repelling qualities (ugly, nerdy, crazy, perverted, anti-social, not charming or good with women, misogynistic, usually kills/hurts/rapes women) can attract many attractive, normal women competing to spread their legs for him. Because he is a popular/infamous/known/powerful “character” on our cultural “stage”. Women are hungry for this social power and want to be close to it, feel it, manipulate it, harness it for her own ends.

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