The Self-Made Beta

Leaning against a pole as the train lurched forward, I noticed an older man, late 40s and clearly marked with the curse of the herb, standing with his young daughter by his side. He was talking with a curvaceous, big bosomed woman in her early 20s who looked like pre-meltdown Britney Spears. She was quite stimulating to the eyes and crotch. The man and Britney were having an energetic and friendly conversation which, when my ears were tuned to the words coming out of her mouth, was about the man’s daughter’s soccer team. Britney’s wide, C-shaped smile indicated she was enjoying this harmless herb’s company, while the herb’s studiously affected flat facial expression and stiff nodding movements suggested a swell of discomfort with his arousal that was threatening to lumber awkwardly through the polite veneer of their phony interaction.

I observed them for a few minutes, until the train reached my stop. A wave of bilious disgust curled my lips. I thought to myself that I never want to be that man who is so inoffensive — that man who has relinquished the last faint hope of his masculinity — that hot co-eds feel perfectly at ease shoving their bountiful breasts and plump, juicy flesh in my face to prattle on about the daily trifles of their lives or to chatter cloyingly about my kid’s soccer practice, taunting by their estrogenic proximity the ape-shaped contours of my cockcentric desire as the beast rattles the bars of its ganglial imprisonment, begging for release.

Only men know men. Women have no conception of the mind of man and what it is thinking at any given time. I know what was going through that family herb’s head. He was hearing her words but inside he was pawing her ass cheeks, his tongue flicking up the length of her vulnerable neck, his pudgy sausage fingers squeezing her tits then prying apart her legs to stroke the folds of her labia, his cock dribbling the pre-cum of urgency as it poised itself before the entrance to her womb. Straining against the silent symphony of his horniness and the feelings of uselessness and shame for the void with which the young women around him now perceived his once dangerously virile sack, he would shuffle home, shoulders sunk, to masturbate despondently in the bathroom. I imagined the wife he would go home to is the typical American fat, nagging sow. No doubt this brief platonic conversation with the cute young woman standing before him was the sad highlight of the last fifteen years of his life.

Did Britney know this was on his mind? Such a capacity for self-delusion women possess!

Here is my call to arms. I believe it is every man’s duty to impolitely flirt and pass sexual judgement on each attractive woman who crosses his path. I believe it is every man’s right, no matter what his age, to refuse to apologize for his natural desires, to make no excuses for his deviant wants, and to grab any opportunity to hit on women in his field of view. I believe it is every man’s mission statement at birth to disturb a woman’s banal self-satisfied sanctuary — her cultivated immunity from unsettling intrusions of the psychologically erectile form — whenever she cavalierly insults his primal urges with naive overtures toward tepid, desexualized friendliness. I believe in all this because a man is happiest when he is demonstrating by his actions a proper respect for his masculine prerogative. I want there to be no mental safe haven for sexually enticing women in public places where men are present. I want them forced to confront what men are truly feeling and visualizing underneath their threadbare civility, and to understand there is no walling off the ever-encroaching predatory chaos of the jungle. I want them to be psychologically groped, everywhere there are men like me at ease with our voracious sexuality.

If I were that herbly father figure, as soon as she attempted to box me in with bland, asexual chit chat I would have negged her.

“Hey you look like Britney Spears. Later years Britney.”

This would have made her go quiet, if it did not shake her into a tremor of attraction, and by the lascivious smirk on my face she would grow suddenly uncomfortable with the realization that I was seeing her as a sexual creature to be plundered. She would then gaze downward at the ugly carpeting, and scurry through the sliding doors when her stop arrived, reminded as she was of the crude fuckworthy animal object she ultimately is to this one man at least.

And I would walk out proudly, head held high, dignity intact. A victory for my balls. A defeat for polite society.





Comments


  1. imagine the self made beta reads this and does what you suggest

    next thing to happen would be Britney screaming: Police!!!!

    Like


  2. You should have taken a picture of the herb…such images reinforce my desire to be anything but a fat, balding, asexual remainder of what used to be a man.

    Like


  3. he should fuck her good

    Like


  4. So you suggest that plain jane white guys suddenly start acting like black guys (or Italian men). I guess it could happen. But if you think the bitch shields are high now…

    Like


  5. basically the U.S. needs to become more like Spain, Italy, and Greece then.

    Like


  6. Here, here. As all of the Men in my family were the type of Men you described, chances are I’ll be doing just what you suggested once I’m past the 50 year mark. And like my ancestors, I fully intend to keep right on busting the maximum amount of nuts in and on as many Strobelight Honies till the day I die, which, God willing, won’t be for a very, very long time yet.

    Amin.

    O

    Like


  7. Better yet, Kenya.

    Like


  8. on June 16, 2009 at 3:16 pm Cliff Arroyo

    Perhaps if she were wearing a burqa, she wouldn’t have provoked you so.

    Like


  9. Perhaps if she were wearing a burqa, she wouldn’t have provoked you so

    true, but not cool

    Like


  10. on June 16, 2009 at 3:21 pm Epoxytocin No. 87

    Yeah, this would make bitch shields skyrocket, like Dutch tulips in 1636.

    Of course, that’s not such a bad thing. Bitch shields just make calibration that much easier.

    “At birth” seems ilke an awfully high bar to set. At least this mission could start at puberty.

    Like


  11. Perhaps if she were wearing a burqa, she wouldn’t have provoked you so.

    burqas are ugly. i prefer beauty.

    Like


  12. @ Anonymous

    the example she gave was one that involved negging with a sexual undertone . the stereotypical view of the type of ‘black men’ and ‘Italians’ you’re suggesting don’t neg ever , they cat call

    Like


  13. “At birth” seems ilke an awfully high bar to set.

    i was born with a boner.

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  14. on June 16, 2009 at 3:23 pm Cliff Arroyo

    “burqas are ugly. i prefer beauty.”

    Then behave yourself.

    Like


  15. Then behave yourself.

    make me.

    Like


  16. on June 16, 2009 at 3:24 pm Epoxytocin No. 87

    i was born with a boner

    Actually, now that I think about it, most guys are much better at negging, takeaways, etc. in second grade than as adults. So maybe you’re onto something.

    Like


  17. Perhaps if she were wearing a burqa, she wouldn’t have provoked you so.

    You can see some of the same reasoning, even if it is trite and a little… whiny?

    But is that what he would want for his young, soccer-playing daughter?

    Like


  18. Why didn’t you intrude upon their conversation with said comment? What do you think their reactions would have been?

    Like


  19. on June 16, 2009 at 3:30 pm Cliff Arroyo

    “make me.”

    As enjoyable as that would be (for both of us) I’ll decline.

    Instead, I’ll point out (again) that if men followed your advice wholesale, a quick result would be modest, figure concealing clothes (along with skyrocketing cases of guys explaining their creepy sex comments to the police).

    All beauty has a price. The price of young women displaying their beauty openly is for men to not hassle them too openly or creepily. If you don’t pay, away goes the beauty.

    Like


  20. on June 16, 2009 at 3:31 pm Epoxytocin No. 87

    A defeat for polite society.

    Among the biggest motivators behind the politeness of our once-polite society – think chaperones, dueñas, old-school marriage, gallantry, etc. – was precisely this recognition of the animal nature of both genders.

    A large-scale recognition of this animal fuck-essence would go a long way toward reinstating the standards of morality that kept it in check for so long before the middle of the twentieth century.
    Maybe.

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  21. ‘I believe it is every man’s duty to impolitely flirt and pass sexual judgement on each attractive woman who crosses his path.”

    I completely agree with this for my self personally, as I always try to swoop on every fly girl I meet.

    This is dangerous advice to “regular guy”.

    For me, who is sharply dressed, dashing, and has futuristic levels of Game that most guys won’t even be spitting in 5 to 10 years, it works.

    Regular guy is going to piss a lot of people off.

    But really, who cares?

    Regular guy always loses.

    – MPM

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  22. on June 16, 2009 at 3:31 pm snatch magnet

    Excelsior! Long live the ‘dirty ol’man’.

    Like


  23. Tazzy Bee,
    Just off the top of my head, I’d have to agree w/your assessment of Black Men insofar as lack of Negs are concerned. I can’t recall them being used, at least not in the way that they’re spoken of here and throughout the PUA community. Much of “Black Game” involves full on machismo, a direct, full frontal assault of the Target’s defenses, a battering ram, a bulldozer, a juggernaut that won’t take no for an answer. You’d be surprised by the number of Women who like a Man who just takes them in such a manner. Which explains, at least in the case of a lot of Black Men, why it so often works.

    O

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  24. Epoxytocin No. 87

    “Actually, now that I think about it, most guys are much better at negging, takeaways, etc. in second grade than as adults”

    This is absolutely true.

    Most guys actually had Game when they were little pups.

    Society sucked it out of most of them (so to speak).

    That is why people that swoop mad girls (like myself) are always accused of “never growing up”.

    I would rather stay young forever.

    – MPM

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  25. on June 16, 2009 at 3:34 pm snatch magnet

    I just wonder how long it will take for the thread to denegrate into meaningless drivel about German syncophants and bad Julia Roberts movies?

    Like


  26. Chuck

    “basically the U.S. needs to become more like Spain, Italy, and Greece then.”

    Yes.

    In more ways than just this.

    – MPM

    Like


  27. on June 16, 2009 at 3:35 pm Epoxytocin No. 87

    Cliff Arroyo

    As enjoyable as that would be (for both of us) I’ll decline.

    Instead, I’ll point out (again) that if men followed your advice wholesale, a quick result would be modest, figure concealing clothes (along with skyrocketing cases of guys explaining their creepy sex comments to the police).

    All beauty has a price. The price of young women displaying their beauty openly is for men to not hassle them too openly or creepily. If you don’t pay, away goes the beauty.

    Cliff, YOU think “modest, figure concealing clothes” and “displaying … beauty openly” are mutually exclusive? YOU, of all people?

    What the fuck?

    A beautiful woman is a beautiful woman is a beautiful woman. Clothes are just as incapable of concealing this kind of beauty as they are of concealing the blubbery degeneration of a “bbw”.

    Seriously.

    Like


  28. That is why people that swoop mad girls (like myself) are always accused of “never growing up”.

    So true.

    Like


  29. on June 16, 2009 at 3:40 pm Epoxytocin No. 87

    Oh, and, Cliff,

    The price of young women displaying their beauty openly is for men to not hassle them too openly or creepily.

    Insert “beta” before “men”.

    You just don’t get it, do you.

    Same story with “sexual harassment” legislation, which is really just “sexual harassment by betas” legislation.
    Guys who get it can still do whatever they want. In fact, they can become even bolder, because beta creepers are now legally enjoined from following their lead.

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  30. One of the most important realizations you can come to is that you have a right to approach women, even a right to creep women out. So long as you are making an honest attempt to learn how to how to do things correctly and aren’t totally disregarding of their feelings, any mild discomfort you might cause women is totally irrelevant.

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  31. Same story with “sexual harassment” legislation, which is really just “sexual harassment by betas” legislation.

    Which is why the poor fool in this story would get punished if he tried to act on his inmost thoughts. Beta who tries to act alpha will get slapped down hard.

    Like


  32. on June 16, 2009 at 3:51 pm Cliff Arroyo

    Self-proclaimed ‘alphas’ and PUAs are either cheerful sociopaths (like our good host) or degenerate damaged goods (like Rooshv).
    They’re also free riders in that they require ‘polite society’ to thrive but have nothing to contribute to it.

    In terms of society, PUA culture is like Gypsy or Ghetto culture that on their own decay into absolute poverty and/or savagery. Both are parasitical and need host societies to survive or thrive. He is a little like a tick that despises the dog whose blood he’s sucking.

    As the man once said, we all have thoughts that would shame hell. I make no apology for mine. On the other hand, I don’t mistake them for some kind of higher virtue either.

    Like


  33. Beta who tries to act alpha will get slapped down hard

    It’s mind-forged manacles keep betas from acting like alphas.

    A beta who acts like an alpha becomes an alpha.

    Liked by 1 person


  34. on June 16, 2009 at 3:53 pm Epoxytocin No. 87

    Thursday

    any mild discomfort you might cause women is totally irrelevant.

    Depends on where you are.
    And who the woman is.

    The FIRST skill that any aspiring PUA should learn is that of smoking out “bitches who will make a scene” and avoiding them like the plague. There aren’t actually that many of these, but one bad apple really spoils the bunch, if you smell what I mean.

    For a newbie who will make lots and lots of blunders, this skill is absolutely crucial.

    It becomes obsolete, of course, after you get good enough.

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  35. on June 16, 2009 at 3:54 pm Loon_Jobbie

    You should take a gander at this article on how pathetic many men in Japan are these days:

    http://www.slate.com/id/2220535/
    “The Herbivore’s Dilemma”

    I’d slip it in the “beta of the month” category, but can an entire subculture of people win that stigma?
    Some of us here think that Western men are “checking out,” and this article illustrates that this process is not just limited to us. Apparently these Jap’s just want to shop endlessly, hide away from people, eat vegetables, play video games, and “aren’t interested in sex.”
    The feminist analysis is laugh worthy. Not interested in sex? Yeah right. The article seems to say that this is the males “preference” and implies that society is “freaking out” over their noble demeanor. I think they are just too browbeaten to properly tell women what they want, or are waiting for permission to move every step of the way.
    Why do western women seem to promote as “good” anything that makes men more Beta? The women who went on dates with these types don’t sound too happy…

    Loon_Jobbie

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  36. Yeah, Epo said it first, consider the Tom Brady rule of sex harassment. It’s only illegal, harassment, bad, etc., if the guy is not attractive…or has bad game.

    His take on the upcoming matriarchy mentioned that women want to (or tend to) punish men who make unwelcome advances because…well..they aren’t people to them.

    The object then, is to either become Tom Brady good looking or to get game.

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  37. Self-proclaimed ‘alphas’ and PUAs are either cheerful sociopaths (like our good host) or degenerate damaged goods (like Rooshv).

    On the other hand, in an overly-beta society, women fly at whateer few alphas are around, often confusing retarded neanderthal thugs for alphas, causing a decay into absolute poverty and/or savagery.

    PUA blogs are an epic corrective to an unbalanced situation.

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  38. on June 16, 2009 at 3:55 pm Epoxytocin No. 87

    Cliff Arroyo

    They’re also free riders in that they require ‘polite society’ to thrive but have nothing to contribute to it.

    As are the VAST majority of spoiled, “empowered” Western women.

    PUA culture is only a leveling of the field in this respect.

    You’re a woman, right, “Cliff”?
    Please?

    Like


  39. So, if you are an older, chubby bald guy, you can’t do Tom Brady. I am curious, is my greater beta/lower alpha side showing its ugliness when I consider that the hypothetical neg (looking like an older Brittany) was too sexual for a neg? Going to creepy, rather than to forcing the girl to DHV?

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  40. on June 16, 2009 at 4:02 pm Epoxytocin No. 87

    I consider that the hypothetical neg (looking like an older Brittany) was too sexual for a neg?

    Really? Really?

    Something like “You’re the kind of girl I could wake up to every day for a whole weekend” might be too sexual.
    Even that can work, if you’ve got the looks, the vibe, or, especially, both.

    That you find his example “too sexual” stamps you as a solid beta. Sorry.

    One oft overlooked bit of wisdom is that really good-looking men MUST be fairly direct and sexual during a pickup.

    If a guy who looks like Tom Brady, or LILGRL bf, starts running Neil Strauss-type indirect “opinion opener” game, the girl is just going to start wondering where his sack is.

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  41. oh, the creep out thing. I’ve observed guys who creep out the girl because their faces light up with wide eyes and a silly, teeth showing smile, that turns their flirtations into a pretty graphic suggestion that the speaker is really, really too interested in seeing the girl nekkid. On the other hand, guys who manage to sexually taunt girls successfully don’t do the “I’m a pervert” face while flirting with girls.

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  42. A beta who acts like an alpha becomes an alpha.

    Can a fat, balding, middle aged schlub with a no-prestige provider job, a shrill wife and a brood of whiny children transform himself into an alpha through sheer force of will? Perhaps it’s an interesting thought experiment, but that’s not the way to bet.

    Maybe when Roosh gets older he can run workshops for aging betas who want to learn game and become alphas (or at least “more alpha”)!

    Like


  43. on June 16, 2009 at 4:06 pm Epoxytocin No. 87

    Can a fat, balding, middle aged schlub with a no-prestige provider job, a shrill wife and a brood of whiny children transform himself into an alpha through sheer force of will?

    It can happen.

    By that point, it usually requires an ugly divorce, a flagrant episode of cheating, or some other earthquake that shakes the man’s soul to the quick.
    For men who aren’t quite that far gone, only the threat of such things is enough. See: the transformation of Dave from Hawaii.

    A phoenix can only rise from ashes.
    The older the phoenix, the more ashes you need, but it can be done.

    Like


  44. on June 16, 2009 at 4:08 pm Epoxytocin No. 87

    I’ve observed guys who creep out the girl because their faces light up with wide eyes and a silly, teeth showing smile, that turns their flirtations into a pretty graphic suggestion that the speaker is really, really too interested in seeing the girl nekkid.

    Wrong.

    The “I-wanna-fuck-you smirk” / evil grin usually gets the job done, unless something else has been botched.

    You may be confusing this with the decidedly NON-sexual “hee hee! omg, a hot woman is talking to me! how delightful!” cheshire cat grin. THAT is what kills the vibe and replaces it with creep-o-matic.

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  45. i see the point, despite the impolitic language. men should revamp the public sphere- make women more aware how men think, and reduce or reverse the strong social tendency toward androgyny. even if beta dudes do this in an ineffectual way, it will still have an effect. in this example, britney might have been disgusted or surprised by flirting or a come-on, but she couldn’t ignore it – she’d view him as a man and not a sexless chump. i don’t see how this would make her wear a burqa or baggy clothes – women are sexually empowered, and will not give up that or related freedoms. a lot of them would welcome this kind of thing, even if their confused psychologies can’t allow them to say it out loud. think of the contempt women hold for betas, and think of the reactions of those same women if a beta-looking guy started hitting on her, quite effectively, in the subway. game changer?

    PA and epoxy are right – with a little practice, confidence and attutude, even betas can move up the ladder to higher betas or lesser alphas if they just shake their programming and get in touch with their better selves.

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  46. Are children a help or hindrance to game? They demonstrate preselection and protector of loved ones… but I dunno

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  47. on June 16, 2009 at 4:22 pm Cliff Arroyo

    “women fly at whateer few alphas are around, often confusing retarded neanderthal thugs for alphas, causing a decay into absolute poverty and/or savagery”

    Well human sexual attractions evolved in face-to-face societies, anonymous society (as in large cities) is a relatively recent phenomenon.

    Women are attracted to a kind of social dominance that is tempered and socialized to work for the good of the group in traditional societies (if the socializing doesn’t work they left, were thrown out or simply killed). In a modern urban environment that personality is most likely been molded into a sociopath or thug. (men have their own, different failings)

    The great disaster of modern US culture is not socializing young men or women to make good choices in terms of partners (or in much of anything else).

    I think initiation rites for men and women where their same-sex elders knock their heads together and lay down the law in no uncertain terms would do almost any western culture a world of good.

    Like


  48. A beta who acts like an alpha becomes an alpha

    Act as if thou had faith, and faith thou shall be given

    PA, your reasoning is not without basis, only misused. St John Chrysostom said it before you. I only question, as other have done before, if it is reasonable to think that it will work with women.

    Like


  49. on June 16, 2009 at 4:33 pm Howard Roark

    As we’ve said, there are two species of alpha: the provider alpha and the predator alpha. The trick married and otherwise whipped guys have to pull is portray themselves as provider alphas, by being the coolest dad, and lure in the girls by making them feel comfortable. Never be creepy, never be weird, but always be the cool guy, the understanding guy. Eventually the shoulder to cry on, maybe. Because merely being unavailable makes them more attractive than they deserve. Because as pathetic as this exchange was, you have to think that Britney would never, ever have even spoken to the 40 year old herb if he didn’t have his daughter with him. So in that sense he’s got an advantage. But one that’s tough to exploit.

    So what would I have said to Britney?

    “She’s a great kid. But sometimes her Mom wants us to go out, have a romantic night alone, you know (wink)… and you wouldn’t believe how hard it is to find a good babysitter around here.”

    Throw her a bone. Watch her jump for it. It’s important to throw it out there, but not as directly. Because Mom will probably take one look at her perky little tits and find something major – unrelated to her looks – to dislike about her. What town she’s from, what school she goes to, what her parents do. Anything.

    It’s not perfect, but he’s right, you have to try to convert those chances. You might get lucky and get the American beauty. Always be closing. Its a man’s natural, fundamental right to eye every female up and down, and take a swing, no matter how mediocre and doomed the attempt is from the start. You can’t hit on a chick openly in front of your daughter. But the married man’s got to have an angle, and the deep, deep inextinguishable flame of hope that somehow, some way, some day, the stars will align so that just one more time he gets to tap some young, tight, frisky female ass – before he dies with his mortgage, his fat wife and his depleted 401k.

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  50. A-Bax said

    women’s tastes are hypergamous, which means that they will always suss out SOME sort of status marker. Women are, to a degree, attracted to a man *with regard to his relationship to* the larger society in which they both find themselves, modified, of course, by more direct things like physical features and behavioral traits.

    Well said.

    Like


  51. on June 16, 2009 at 4:40 pm Dave Is Certainly Knowing

    Jeez, the discussions about the herbivore article on the Slate are annoying.

    Like


  52. on June 16, 2009 at 4:41 pm Dave Is Certainly Knowing

    That is to say, the ones taking place on the Slate website.

    Like


  53. Lovely, so now instead of knowing that most of those male eyes fixated not on my face are contemplating something I’d rather not have them do, I can instead experience in verbal or physical form? Ooh, so exciting!

    Guys who get it can still do whatever they want. In fact, they can become even bolder, because beta creepers are now legally enjoined from following their lead.
    One of the most important realizations you can come to is that you have a right to approach women, even a right to creep women out. So long as you are making an honest attempt to learn how to how to do things correctly and aren’t totally disregarding of their feelings, any mild discomfort you might cause women is totally irrelevant.
    No. There is BIG difference between mild discomfort and being creeped out. A woman who is creeped out regularly is going to become a little mouse hiding her beauty, or a bitch on wheels, or uncomfortable with her sexuality, etc., something that doesn’t seem to be what you all want in your question to notch to infinity. I get the hubris involved and all, but watch the line.

    Like


  54. Macho latin men give latina women lots of attention – wanted or not. And Latinas don’t seem to have stated wearing moomoos or becoming unfem mouses or bitches.

    Like


  55. Why do western women seem to promote as “good” anything that makes men more Beta? The women who went on dates with these types don’t sound too happy…

    It’s like climate change. People see that it’s a problem, but nobody wants to take the big steps and sacrifices needed to curb carbon production. Thus, women will advocate that they want beta males to love, but nobody is willing to put up with one in the long-term in any sexual sense.

    It’s mind-forged manacles keep betas from acting like alphas.

    I believe the beta penalty brake is not man made, but inherent in every beta.

    DA? Is that you?

    If one discounts the lack of desire to travelling overseas, I have quite a bit of the “herbivore” tendencies.

    Like


  56. Lovely, so now instead of knowing that most of those male eyes fixated not on my face are contemplating something I’d rather not have them do, I can instead experience in verbal or physical form? Ooh, so exciting!

    Cut your dicks off and act beta, damn you! Why aren’t you ashamed of your natural desires in accordance with the demands of feminist dogma?

    Liked by 1 person


  57. Second Dr Grz on G Manifesto, I love his strange sentence constructions, positively Nabokovian!

    Like


  58. There is BIG difference between mild discomfort and being creeped out.

    Get over yourself, no, there isn’t. Girls just aren’t going to be permanently damaged by a misfired approach. Mild discomfort, at worst. Girls throw the word creepy around to cover any approach they don’t like. It’s like ketchup; it goes with everything.

    Seriously, it’s creeping time.

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  59. “Macho latin men give latina women lots of attention – wanted or not. And Latinas don’t seem to have stated wearing moomoos or becoming unfem mouses or bitches.”

    All people and all groups of people are the same. Very liberal of you.

    Like


  60. Girls throw the word creepy around to cover any approach they don’t like.

    Yes, instead they give dirty looks to ensure that you get the message that you’re not wanted.

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  61. Tarl

    “Can a fat, balding, middle aged schlub with a no-prestige provider job, a shrill wife and a brood of whiny children transform himself into an alpha through sheer force of will? Perhaps it’s an interesting thought experiment, but that’s not the way to bet.”

    Yes.

    But he has to skip this part: “a no-prestige provider job, a shrill wife and a brood of whiny children”

    See Flavio Briatore (Super older Alpha G)

    http://www.pitlanepr.com/inpitlane2.nsf/displaynews/7A6A93C94D6F2939CA2573470054C61C?opendocument

    – MPM

    Like


  62. Oh, FFS, reading women’s signals isn’t THAT hard, and (pace feminists) you can make an approach without it being street harassment. The problem is in the case of an ambiguous refusal like “We’re waiting for a friend.” (Which can be met with “Well I’m sure you have time to make a new one.”) One of the major problems is dealing with an indirect non-refusal, and a good pick-up artist will answer with his own creative ambiguities.

    Like


  63. on June 16, 2009 at 5:18 pm Cannon's Canon

    “strange sentence constructions, positively Nabokovian!”

    sounds like Kool Keith to me

    Like


  64. Cut your dicks off and act beta, damn you! Why aren’t you ashamed of your natural desires in accordance with the demands of feminist dogma?

    Be alpha! Grab and grope any hot lady! Tell them in explicit terms on the morning commute how exactly you’d bend her over those lovely orange seats!

    Girls just aren’t going to be permanently damaged by a misfired approach.

    Obviously it depends on the approach and the persistence.

    Oh, FFS, reading women’s signals isn’t THAT hard, and (pace feminists) you can make an approach without it being street harassment.

    Totally, and if you’re learning, try to stay off the creepy side. (to me, at least, creepy implies threat, and feeling especially unsafe is different than mild discomfort.)

    Like


  65. on June 16, 2009 at 5:30 pm Epoxytocin No. 87

    Tell them in explicit terms on the morning commute how exactly you’d bend her over those lovely orange seats!

    Oh, this can definitely work.

    Especially if your fellow morning commuter is of the “driven type-A professional woman” persuasion.

    You have no idea.

    Like


  66. Be alpha! Grab and grope any hot lady! Tell them in explicit terms on the morning commute how exactly you’d bend her over those lovely orange seats!

    If that’s what you think game is, the most flattering interpretation is you haven’t been reading this blog for very long.

    Like


  67. Someone asked for an Italian/Latino neg. I’ll give one that is pretty much non-sexual (therefore suited for an aging man).

    Brittney aproaches, and smiles. Smile back, giving her the open space to start the sexless convo.

    She says “Hi”.

    Herb raises one brow and reply:

    “Dont you think you’re too young to flirt me?”

    Only loud enough to sound like a reprimand. Face upwards in faux indignation.

    You are not assaulting her sexually. You are insinuating that SHE is assaulting you. Plain cynically. Jack Nicholson smirk.

    A nice reminder that you are a sexual being. Playful. Still, full of Old Man Authority.

    Dirty Old Man is the Evil Dad. It doesnt hurt to make her think of a hair brush spanking for a second.

    ***

    No guarantee you will nail her but still its fun.

    Life *can* be theatrical.

    ***

    Based on life experience of a friend at his 50’s.

    Liked by 1 person


  68. Two points.

    Unless I miss my guess, wasn’t the area notorious for cat-calling Hispanic and Black Men? I don’t know what, if anything, was done about this. I believe he has written about this; as I recall, his take on the situation was that such events were one of the unintended consequences of the posti-feminist world.

    And then there was the spate of aggressive groping and the like of Women in NYC trains and buses. I believe things got so bad that there was a website devoted to the matter, which played a role in the police getting involved.

    Both instances brings something clearly to the forefront of my mind…

    I don’t think any Woman here can deny the simple fact that the preferred Male can pretty much get away w/saying anything, no matter how trite or forward; the issue, are the remainder of Men who for whatever reason, simply do not measure up.

    Might these “aggressive cat-calling/groping” incidents have anything to do with the aforementioned facts?

    Comments?

    O

    Like


  69. yeah, maurice, I don’t think I’ve read of creepy day game.

    Like


  70. Re: “creepy”: this goes along with my hypothesis that women are much more terrified of social ostricization and social awkwardness than men.

    For women, who value social climbing, being thought of as rude or awkward or as an outcast is the worst form of torture. Hence rendering a man “creepy” is effective at making him undatable, as it marks him as one who will drive people away.

    Also why women enjoy fashion—its about fitting in with the crowd and also besting that same crowd at their own game.

    Also why women prefer social proof, i.e. your having friends. Hence wingmen.

    Convincing a woman you think she’s a dork is or that you’re more socially “with it” than her would, in my hypothetical thought process, much more effective than negging looks. I think when he makes fun of dress, he hits closer to home than, say, weight. A fat girl might know she has a few pounds, but she’s most proud of her selected outfit.

    Any thoughts?

    Like


  71. Oh, FFS, reading women’s signals isn’t THAT hard, and (pace feminists) you can make an approach without it being street harassment.

    You can learn to approach without it being annoying. But when you’re starting out, you are going to creep a lot of girls out. Hell, if you have a bad day, or even a bad moment, you can creep girls out. If a guy is overly about creeping girls out, he shouldn’t approach at all. And, no one wants that, not even girls.

    creepy implies threat

    Girls are oversensitive to what constitutes a “threat.” This is understandable from an evolutionary perspective. Better to be safe than sorry. So, I don’t blame girls for getting creeped out so easily. I understand. I really do.

    But, given this oversensitivity, and assuming a man’s motives are good, he shouldn’t be all that concerned about accidently setting off a girl’s threat sensors.

    Of course, you’re ultimate goal is to not creep girls out, but you can only learn calibration by getting experience and getting experience means fucking it up over and over and over again.

    Like


  72. on June 16, 2009 at 6:01 pm Willard Libby

    David Alexander – Girls throw the word creepy around to cover any approach they don’t like.

    Yes, instead they give dirty looks to ensure that you get the message that you’re not wanted.

    Nothing illustrates this dynamic better than this Tom Brady SNL Sexual Harassment PSA.

    Here’s another funny clip with Fred Armisen.

    Like


  73. I’ll go with what you say as long as it’s not a dark alley, and the man doesn’t linger after it’s clear the game isn’t working, etc. That whole line thing. Perhaps the line is further towards your male expression of wanting to get it on than it currently is, but some of that 5th paragraph up there is a bit strong.

    Like


  74. The 3 second rule is not because of the women’s reaction.

    It is because *your* reaction: the goal is to avoid “analysis paralysis”.

    Which is what happens if you over-rationalize about the subject.

    Devil-may-care, boys.

    Like


  75. Cliff Arroyo

    (along with skyrocketing cases of guys explaining their creepy sex comments to the police).

    That’s wrong. It might be right during the early parts of a transition in that direction, but that’s it. The police would be utterly swamped if such became usual white American behavior.

    Besides what she’s advocating would generally not even be actionable in an office (well most offices, some have absurd internal polices where complain if repeated is proof), much less in a public space.

    Besides, living in such fear is the way of the beta, herb or otherwise, not the alpha.

    Like


  76. What pictures of women show a C shape and U shape smile?

    Like


  77. Again, Thursday, I am totally in agreement with you: “‘creepy'” just means “unappealing but interested”, although more honest women will use it to mean “unappealing and persistent in a way that hints at danger.” Most of that stems from the abundance/disposability/superfluousness of the average man for the average woman, an approach from a man she’d rather not be bothered by is automatically “‘creepy'”, and it’s impossible to counter total lack of interest by calibration. The fact is that a man will be attracted to many, many women, the vast majority of whom will be totally indifferent to him, and more likely than not unattracted. One of the more useful exercises is just to BE SOCIAL, to prevent yourself from getting mired in a “being social =hot chicks around” mindset.

    Like


  78. Well, to think about the situation, a dad was talking to a tart..she is obviously hit on by guys when she goes out, gets drunk, etc. (she looks like Brittaney Spears (BS) ….she’s trying to look that way).

    Herb dad wasn’t showing disinterest in a way to prevent being a puppy dog or in being alpha, he was doing it to choke back any chance at an embarrassing rejection. So, it’s not an instance of talking to a girl, but ignoring their beauty. Instead, he was letting BS control the conversation, so no game there. That’s the sad thing, he felt forced to turn off his masculinity.

    Lesson, even if married or taken, one should flirt anyway, not be ashamed of finding girls attractive. Therefore, don’t become a sexless schlub. Grizzled, old-fart Jack Nicholson would have still put his junk out there.

    Creepy is just a manifestation of doing it in a desperate manner. eh?

    Like


  79. PA–

    On the other hand, in an overly-beta society, women fly at whateer few alphas are around, often confusing retarded neanderthal thugs for alphas, causing a decay into absolute poverty and/or savagery.

    PUA blogs are an epic corrective to an unbalanced situation.

    Excellent points.

    As I repeatedly say, the vast majority of alpha males are 1) naturals and 2) not thugs.

    Instead their leaders. They’re rich and powerful. They’re at the top or headed their of their exciting professions, or in a side of those professions or occupations that is or can be exciting, at least some good part of the time (or made to look like it). They’re creative and inspiring. They’re leaders but maybe not at such august levels as the forgoing. They’re leading rebels in some interesting cause. They’re good solid men in ordinary jobs but good enough or in fact good looking, and also physically dynamic and exciting – everyday studs. They’re funny guys that hold small groups at parties or bars. They’re good at telling stories to girls and playing with their emotions. They’re cocky assholes some of the time, but also responsible or fair responsible job holders doing well at work. And so on.

    Game and PUA’s take the easiest of these traits and ways of being alpha and teach it as game. Some of it is the confidence and ways of acting that most natural alphas have, and some of it is a more specialized kind of easier for the non big leader or achiever to emulate side of alphadom, typically assholery and such things as negging girls. Tom Brady may not intentionally neg girls much. He might but he might not. He’s got plenty of other alpha stuff going. GAme teaches the things that non super winners can use to be winners with girls.

    There is a cheating element to the PUA arts. It’s only part of the reason it works, but it is part.

    So what? In this feminist world, men should go nuclear; whatever works.

    Like


  80. Instead they’re leaders. (That’s all I’m gonna fix.)

    Like


  81. making women squirm themselves into primal sexual attraction is an iffy proposition.

    The offensive early 30’s weekend jogger is perceived by women differently than the 40-ish dad-herb recounted above.

    If it need be the one scrap saved for a male’s sexual dignity, then fine – leer away.

    Otherwise, many women’s teeny, atrophied brains are perfectly happy with a supplicant, provider beta.

    Many women are satisfied in the proverbial Gilded Cage

    Like


  82. Chuck

    basically the U.S. needs to become more like Spain, Italy, and Greece then.

    In the way men act towards women, suave and intelligent versions of macho rather than anglo chivalrous (usually), and in the more traditional sex roles they encourage, yes, ABSOLUTELY.

    Not necessarily in most other things about the national cultures. That would take a case by case breakdown.

    This teasing apart is entirely possible by the way,though I’m not saying taking a more latin gender roles approach won’t have some other consequences.

    Like


  83. The Gus McCrae character as portrayed by Robert Duvall in Lonesome Dove is a good example of a man who maintains his manhood throughout his life, never apologizing for his desire for beautiful women and living life to the fullest. Of course it is all fictional, but I am curious to see if anyone knows of any real life figures who are similar to this, whether historical or not.

    Like


  84. Same story with “sexual harassment” legislation, which is really just “sexual harassment by betas” legislation.
    Guys who get it can still do whatever they want. In fact, they can become even bolder, because beta creepers are now legally enjoined from following their lead.

    @ Epoxytocin No. 87 –

    This is simply not true. I’m in Washington state, which is one of the more leftist states in the country. I recently had to endure a “training” about sexual harassment as a part of my job, and I brought up this very point during the question session. The trainer was a true militant feminist bulldog, so I thought she’d parrot your viewpoint. To my shock and delight, she said this is definitely not the case. Did you hear that, betas? If you’re not her supervisor, asking a woman out at work does not constitute sexual harassment, at least in the State of Washington. In order to be an infraction, the trainer said the law requires that the offense be of an inappropriate sexual nature AND a reasonable person would have to find it offensive. She said she’s dealt with especially sensitive women who’ve complained about men asking them out, but the situation was resolved in-house with no penalties in any case. I approached her after class to make sure I understood, and she reassured me that such a situation “would never leave the building, much less go to a court”, in her words. So guys, we haven’t been neutered completely just yet. All the reluctance of guys to ask women out at work is either based on misinformation, or it’s the opinion of sniveling betas who need an excuse as to why they don’t have the balls to ask that hot piece of ass on a date.

    Like


  85. on June 16, 2009 at 6:44 pm Virginia Gentleman

    anon-c:

    That picture is cringeworthy. Once I realized why that picture was posted, I immediately closed it. Who in their right mind would ever do such a thing?

    (I’m waiting for the day when she’s no longer an It Girl; something annoys me about her.)

    Like


  86. Fabian –

    You’re putting a lot of faith in arbitrators or in-house legal council. A lot.

    Like


  87. “All the reluctance of guys to ask women out at work is either based on misinformation, or it’s the opinion of sniveling betas who need an excuse as to why they don’t have the balls to ask that hot piece of ass on a date.”

    Thanks for the perspective.

    I was starting to think that America got indeed draconian toward sexual harassment like some commenters make it seem.

    Like


  88. on June 16, 2009 at 6:52 pm schoolboy00

    anon-c:

    Megans tits look so nice. I’ll neg the hell out of her webbed fingers, and clubbed thumb.

    Like


  89. Some companies forbid any one who works there from daing anyone else to avoid any appearance of impropiety.

    However, for most companies, it is acceptable for peers to date each other, and ask each other out. With that said, if you ask someone out, and get turned down, you can’t repeatedly keep asking the person out, try to sabotage the other person’s career because of it, or get other people to punish the person because of the rejection. That would be actionable. But in America, a goodly number of people met and fall in love at work.

    The rules are completely different for supervisors, because they actual authority over the other person, and therefore their actions have to be taken in a different light. Not that it stops many people from dating their supervisor. Michelle Obama was Barack’s mentor at his first law firm job, after all.

    Like


  90. Yeah, Fabian. You are forgetting that the pool of “reasonable people” they draw on is full of feminist lawyers, the same judges who oversee slanted divorce proceedings, and arbitrators schooled in contempt for all things manly.

    Basically all the bulldyke told you was that as long as what you did didn’t offend her, it wouldn’t be considered offensive. Good luck with that.

    Like


  91. Thanks for the correction, G-Man.

    I think it will be very interesting to see how the surplus of never married Beta Males will play itself out over the course of the next few decades. My guess is that it won’t be pleasant for a great number of Women, but maybe I could be wrong.

    O

    Like


  92. Fabian:

    To my shock and delight, she said this is definitely not the case. Did you hear that, betas? If you’re not her supervisor, asking a woman out at work does not constitute sexual harassment, at least in the State of Washington.

    You shouldn’t be delighted just because “sexual harassment” is less extreme in your jurisdiction than you thought. Men should reject the entire concept of sexual harassment wholesale and be openly hostile to it until there are no more sexual harassment policies or legislation anywhere and the sexual harassment industry like the training you attended is shut down.

    Being prevented from hitting on a woman because you are her supervisor or whatever means preventing men from enjoying the fruits of their labor, and of course we should never accept that.

    Like


  93. ….and civilization just left the room…….

    Like


  94. “I believe in all this because a man is happiest when he is demonstrating by his actions a proper respect for his masculine prerogative.”

    Very nice.

    A call to a more Mediterranean-style culture. Women can feel like truly desired women, men can be themselves without fear…

    Like


  95. “Yeah, Fabian. You are forgetting that the pool of “reasonable people” they draw on is full of feminist lawyers, the same judges who oversee slanted divorce proceedings, and arbitrators schooled in contempt for all things manly.

    Basically all the bulldyke told you was that as long as what you did didn’t offend her, it wouldn’t be considered offensive. Good luck with that.”

    I call bullshit on what that feminazi told him. Think about it as a sting operation. If men really knew “the rules” of sexual harassment, most of these attorneys would be out of business. They try to calm your fears but if a woman comes to them with a claim, no matter how petty or unjustifiable, they’ll fight tooth and nail to ruin you and take your employer for everything they can. The credible threat of a resource-draining lawsuit, even if it has no merit, is enough to terminate any nonessential employee. You can countersue or appeal, but it probably wouldn’t even be worth it.

    The notion of “hostile work environment” has created a work environment that is hostile to men. This doesn’t have to shut you down, but don’t lull yourself into a false sense of security.

    Like


  96. askjoe-

    Herb dad wasn’t showing disinterest in a way to prevent being a puppy dog or in being alpha, he was doing it to choke back any chance at an embarrassing rejection. So, it’s not an instance of talking to a girl, but ignoring their beauty. Instead, he was letting BS control the conversation, so no game there. That’s the sad thing, he felt forced to turn off his masculinity.

    Yeah you’re absolutely right, but you’re touching on something else that’s interesting here.

    This herb can’t very well go to full bore flirting mode from a standing start and no practice with a hot pre meltdown Brittany Spears looking 22 yo who’s coaching his daughter or anyway interested in her sports activities without in fact getting rejection or hostility etc. That shouldn’t kill him but it also won’t do him any good.

    He’s got do start a bit slower and build some skills, around the light joking idea probably, then with a bit of practice moving that into light teasing, and also improve his masculine appearance during this same older herb transition period.

    A good starting approach for someone his age trying to transition up from acting beta in his daily interactions with clearly too young or at least far age reach girls, after improving his clothes and so on to alphaish and hitting the gym (though even before that’s sculpted his body much), is to take a sort of ironic approach. One where he tacitly acknowledges she’s too young for him in his mind, but that she’s the type he used to play with not so very long ago.

    The “I’m not really hitting on you I’m just having a spot of fun with you” approach can work very well as the starting point between older guys and too young girls. Makes them feel it’s harmless and in that respect similar to when he was acting herb; but also very different, because it IS flirty fun that lets him be masculine, just ultimately with supposed barriers that keep her from worrying “how it looks”.

    With that as back story in his mind, faking it till he makes it if necessary, he may be able to interact in a WAY different way than he will if he simply thinks of her as way too young / hot for him these days (or in this herb’s case, ever). Or since this herb presumably has no game, not just burried game, he’s going to have to now study up on game lesson 2, and so on.

    Like


  97. maurice:

    Saudi Arabia is the opposite of what you said – men are *completely* isolated from women in the public sphere, to exclude even looking at them. no speaking, no flirting, separate spaces for movies, etc. the reason is the tendency of men to do, well, exactly what he advocated above.

    Yes, the sexes need to be completely separated because there are so many sexually frustrated young men in Islamic countries. For reasons of polygamy and lots of men not being able to marry until they are older at best. Women can’t have casual “friendly” conversations with men in a polygamous society because the men are only thinking about one thing and it just isn’t pleasant or safe for women to mix.

    I think the same thing will happen in the West with our serial monogamy and lots of beta men finding no outlet. Here the women think they they can continue to dress provocatively and tease us and still be safe and even avoid “creepy” behavior and “sexual harassment” as they are rejecting more and more men. It doesn’t work that way. When Western men get sexually frustrated, we can be just as creepy and dangerous as Muslims. Either you have to segregate the sexes, or most men, not just alphas, need to have access to sex. Or women will have it coming.

    Like


  98. — I was starting to think that America got indeed draconian toward sexual harassment like some commenters make it seem.

    As far as I know America has no sexual harrasment laws. You can be as “creepy” or forward as you like, assuming no touching is involved (ie, she can’t say you groped her).

    Tere are civil (not criminal) laws that govern workplace sexual harassment, and those can cause ridiculous damages against the employer for a “hostile environment” or can allow for a dismissal of the accused party.

    I’m not a lawyer, but I’m certain that you can talk to any (adult) chick outside of work/school, any way you want to, and not get into any kind of trouble.

    — A call to a more Mediterranean-style culture. Women can feel like truly desired women, men can be themselves without fear…

    This, in turn, would bring on a new set of elaborate codes of honor between men with regards to gaming someone’s wife or girlfriend, and also how taken women present themselves in public.

    Like


  99. Sexual harassment is usualy quid pro quo (on your knees or lose your job subordinate) or a hostile environment a la repeated, offensive-in-a-bar conduct. Divorce cases are not usually under a reasonable person standard. Apples to oranges. Thinking quid pro quo is ok is just ridiculous.

    Negging a girl on her social abilities instead of her bum size seems far more succesful to me; one makes you uncomfy nakey and the other is hard to disprove … And we all remember junior high and that first boy laughing at us.

    Like


  100. on June 16, 2009 at 8:06 pm Tupac Chopra

    To my mind, the best encapsulation of the proper attitude for women with respect to the romantic overtures they face from the average man is to be found in this clip from one of my favorite movies, “Once Upon A Time In The West”, starring Jason Robards and the inestimable Claudia Cardinale:

    (I’ve tagged the link so it starts at 5:40)

    Claudia Cardinale…they don’t make ’em like that anymore.

    Like


  101. on June 16, 2009 at 8:13 pm Tupac Chopra

    lol @ “herbophobia”

    Like


  102. PA:

    As far as I know America has no sexual harrasment laws.

    Yes, it does. It all goes back to Title IX of the Educational Amendments Act of 1972. That is what got you into this mess, soon entered the workplace, and now the slightest sexual reference or attention that a woman dislikes is sexual harassment. All because women are “discriminated against” as they can’t cope with sexuality in education or the workplace like men can, so the workplace must be sanitized to cater to women.

    Like


  103. Arpagus, right, but I was saying that as far as I know there are no criminal laws on sexual harassment. This was in response to someone who thought you might get into trouble for hitting on some chick on the street.

    But yeah, civil laws are fucked up at work and so on.

    Like


  104. Mr. M – If you can find one case – ONE – where a guy was convicted for asking a girl out once, I’ll say I’m wrong. But I bet you can’t.

    __________________________________________________

    The thing that bothers me about this blog is the degree to which he and his dittoheads do exactly what many women do with regard to blame: they don’t ever accept any. Allow me to blow your minds by suggesting the sacrilegious idea that never gets mentioned here…guys can be irresponsible, status seeking, untrustworthy, led-around-by-their-crotch dickheads too. I can already hear the retorts: “Bu-bu-but Fabian! You silly beta! You just don’t understand evolution!!!!! It’s my genes! I can’t help it!” Meanwhile, said critics spend all their time on this blog bitching about how women should try harder to control THEIR genetically induced urges…while men totally cave into theirs. Evolutionary Psychology? Even if certain tendencies and urges can be explained by genes, it’s still nothing but a pathetic excuse – a crutch – used by weak men masquerading as tough guys. How “alpha”!

    Let’s be clear: it’s true that women are naturally affected by, and vulnerable to, Game. But some children are naturally affected by, and vulnerable to, the advances of pedophiles. Some people are naturally susceptible to nicotine addiction. Is exploiting a natural human tendency automatically “right” just because it’s a natural human tendency? It’s also true, as demonstrated by even a cursory view of history, that people can overcome their urges for the benefit of themselves and society when they want to. Again, when they want to. So do we take the higher road and actually start a debate about the status of male-female relations? Do we try and change some laws by contacting our representatives? Do we vote with our pocketbooks, by not going to movies/watching TV programs that depict men in a negative light? Do we make girlfriends out of the fives and sixes who may not be the best looking women but are totally cool, or do we spend all our time chasing the hottest tail? Or spend our time lazily sitting around, talking and writing about how the Titanic Ship of State is sinking, so we should get as much tail as possible before the inevitable? Do we allow ourselves to be led around by our dicks, or do we start doing the hard work to make things better? I can’t guarantee we’ll succeed if we try. But making the effort…

    That’s what Jefferson, Hamilton, Madison, Adams and Washington did when they made a new society. That’s what real men do. That’s Alpha.

    Like


  105. France is a better example than Italy. Italian men’s come-ons always struck me as over the top and crude. Cat-calling, hooting and howling at women is prole behavior. Sophistication and finesse are better tools.

    Like


  106. al:

    Thinking quid pro quo is ok is just ridiculous.

    No, it is not. It is any man’s prerogative to enjoy the fruits of his labor. If I owned a business or were in a position of power, then of course I would make hiring or firing decisions on the basis of whether women would sleep with me. Any man who thinks this is wrong has been brainwashed by the feminists and is a moron.

    or a hostile environment a la repeated, offensive-in-a-bar conduct

    No, the slightest sexual joke overheard from men or even pictures on the wall can be enough. Women just can’t cope with sexual references in their environment, according to feminists, so the environment must be changed to suit them. Of course the real reason is the power it gives them over men.

    Like


  107. The thing that bothers me about this blog is the degree to which he and his dittoheads do exactly what many women do with regard to blame: they don’t ever accept any. Allow me to blow your minds by suggesting the sacrilegious idea that never gets mentioned here…guys can be irresponsible, status seeking, untrustworthy, led-around-by-their-crotch dickheads too. I can already hear the retorts: “Bu-bu-but Fabian! You silly beta! You just don’t understand evolution!!!!! It’s my genes! I can’t help it!” Meanwhile, said critics spend all their time on this blog bitching about how women should try harder to control THEIR genetically induced urges…while men totally cave into theirs. Evolutionary Psychology? Even if certain tendencies and urges can be explained by genes, it’s still nothing but a pathetic excuse – a crutch – used by weak men masquerading as tough guys. How “alpha”!
    Let’s be clear: it’s true that women are naturally affected by, and vulnerable to, Game. But some children are naturally affected by, and vulnerable to, the advances of pedophiles. Some people are naturally susceptible to nicotine addiction. Is exploiting a natural human tendency automatically “right” just because it’s a natural human tendency? It’s also true, as demonstrated by even a cursory view of history, that people can overcome their urges for the benefit of themselves and society when they want to. Again, when they want to. So do we take the higher road and actually start a debate about the status of male-female relations? Do we try and change some laws by contacting our representatives? Do we vote with our pocketbooks, by not going to movies/watching TV programs that depict men in a negative light? Do we make girlfriends out of the fives and sixes who may not be the best looking women but are totally cool, or do we spend all our time chasing the hottest tail? Or spend our time lazily sitting around, talking and writing about how the Titanic Ship of State is sinking, so we should get as much tail as possible before the inevitable? Do we allow ourselves to be led around by our dicks, or do we start doing the hard work to make things better? I can’t guarantee we’ll succeed if we try. But making the effort…

    That’s what Jefferson, Hamilton, Madison, Adams and Washington did when they made a new society. That’s what real men do. That’s Alpha.

    Like


  108. PUA question:

    My formerly – o m e g a friend Mike (Ace’s buddy) has graduated to beta-with-serious-momentum. He’s the guy who joined my gym a year ago, got into awesome shape, blinged out, and unnerded himself out of his burly-man techie nerdishess.

    Anyhow, a chick bumped into him, and from what he tells me, she showed major indicators of interests, threw a shit test that he passed nicely, and then he had to leave. He also asked her name, and she told him.

    He’s expecting to bump into her in a day or two (their routines cross paths). And he just told me on the phone as he was relating the encounter — remember, he is a fledgeling former o m e g a — that he’ll ask her “sorry, what’s your name again?”

    I told him that’s a risky move, I wouldn’t do it. He thinks it shows aloofness and DHV.

    What do y’all think?

    Like


  109. Arpagus, right, but I was saying that as far as I know there are no criminal laws on sexual harassment. This was in response to someone who thought you might get into trouble for hitting on some chick on the street.

    I knew a guy who got two years probation for asking some lesbians for a threesome. He asked twice and that was all it took, and i don’t think it was work-related. That was in Tennessee. I’m pretty sure there are criminal sexual harassment laws, but admit I don’t know so much about it either.

    Like


  110. May the demons of LA Laker riots visit upon your mothers, sisters, and all you keyboard jockey PUAs incapable of distinguishing between masculinity and drooling douchebag manchild. Go forth and hit on all the hots with unpracticed lines and routines culled from hours of surfing the net at home so that the collective bitch shields of western women may swell to girths never seen by Satan or Sudanese gang rapists. As you heed the call, just remember to refrain from whining like entitled pussies at western decay or the inapproachability of the average looking girl.

    Putridly,

    Ogdru Jahad

    Like


  111. I think it depends on the situation. I never flirt with women in my suburban town. For example, my family had a hot latina maid for a while and a hot blond babysitter for a while. I always acted completely asexual towards them. I’ts just not worth the aggravation which will take place if something comes back to my wife.

    I suppose a real man would unashamedly seduce the babysitter; the maid; and his wife’s adopted daughter a la Woody Allen. And leave nude pics of his conquest around for his wife to find.

    Like


  112. on June 16, 2009 at 8:49 pm Tupac Chopra

    He’s expecting to bump into her in a day or two (their routines cross paths). And he just told me on the phone as he was relating the encounter — remember, he is a fledgeling former o m e g a — that he’ll ask her “sorry, what’s your name again?”

    I told him that’s a risky move, I wouldn’t do it. He thinks it shows aloofness and DHV.

    What do y’all think?

    I’d say it depends on whether he gave her IOI’s himself in the inital encounter.

    If he flirted with her and let it be known that he had some sort of sexual attraction for her, he shouldn’t play dumb. He should go with the original momentum. But he needs to be prepared to escalate things on some level.

    On the other hand, if the dynamic of the inital encounter was of her giving him IOI’s, and he played the cool, aloof role, then he could very well play the dumb card and use it to plant seeds of doubt in the girl’s mind as to her value.

    Hope that made sense.

    Like


  113. What about the daughter that was present. I mean I’m down for the plan and all but you know if I had a daughter there it would through a monkey wrench in the whole program. I’m pretty sure if my daughter saw my boner it would put her in therapy for at least 20 years

    Like


  114. Tupac that sounds like really good advice, makes sense to me.

    Like


  115. And don’t argue over the definition of trolling, either.

    Like


  116. I’m single and at an internship with many chicks 8 or so years younger. Many have boyfriends. The goal is to get some ass eventually this summer, but without being too blatant (it is work, and too forward can bring out the “Creepy” accusations, as we all know). I’m trying to be kind of aloof and cocky, though I am not sure how it’s working so far. Maybe someone can let me know what to avoid?

    Like


  117. Arpagus wrote…
    “Being prevented from hitting on a woman because you are her supervisor or whatever means preventing men from enjoying the fruits of their labor, and of course we should never accept that.”

    This is the crux of the issue. The goal of feminism is not to protect or advance women, the goal is to neuter men. All the sexual harrasment laws are meant to mute and deny the alpha advantage. It used to be that the dominant males were the successful ones. Now after 50 years of feminism just look at our so-called business “leaders”. They are a bunch of fucking cowardly betas clamoring for Obama socialism (if not facism) faster than you can say “the French are bunch of pussies”.

    Of course, a true alpha is not going to bust his tail for 20 years to rise to the top of the corporate ladder to then be told by Linda Wildebeast in HR that he can’t hit on the hottie in finance. So the alphas divert and do things that interest them like take pictures of the herbs at M’s and eavesdrop conversations on the metro and post it to a blog making fun of the whole damn spectacle as Western Civ circles the drain. Alphas don’t need the pussy from finance but society needs CEOs that can run global business. Can you?

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  118. THE David –

    So the alphas divert and do things that interest them like take pictures of the herbs at M’s and eavesdrop conversations on the metro and post it to a blog making fun of the whole damn spectacle as Western Civ circles the drain.

    Nice.

    Like


  119. Arpagus,

    new here?

    Like


  120. PA:
    He’s expecting to bump into her in a day or two (their routines cross paths). And he just told me on the phone as he was relating the encounter — remember, he is a fledgeling former o m e g a — that he’ll ask her “sorry, what’s your name again?”

    I told him that’s a risky move, I wouldn’t do it. He thinks it shows aloofness and DHV.

    What do y’all think?

    unnecessary overgaming. but if he wants to go that route there is a better way of phrasing it:
    “i have a confession to make… i forgot your name.”

    Like


  121. vk:
    What about the daughter that was present. I mean I’m down for the plan and all but you know if I had a daughter there it would through a monkey wrench in the whole program. I’m pretty sure if my daughter saw my boner it would put her in therapy for at least 20 years

    i’d tell her “earmuffs!” then steal her glasses.

    you gotta train these kids early.

    Like


  122. on June 16, 2009 at 10:33 pm Marcus Tullius Cicero

    exsisto quietis vacuus meretricis

    Like


  123. > so the workplace must be sanitized to cater to women.

    Perhaps, but every single place I’ve ever worked or ran has had ample skirt chasing and flirting going on. The women were equally guilty.

    Like


  124. Arpagus,

    No, it is not. It is any man’s prerogative to enjoy the fruits of his labor. If I owned a business or were in a position of power, then of course I would make hiring or firing decisions on the basis of whether women would sleep with me. Any man who thinks this is wrong has been brainwashed by the feminists and is a moron.

    You say if. If you were in a position of power. Maybe a man smart enough to get himself to a position of power knows not to shit where he eats?
    Also, it makes little economic sense to hire staff based on if they’ll bang you. Save the wages for whores / game / whatever and hire someone who’ll make your business more money.

    Also, and I write this from a neutral position, but there’s a saying, ” a man becomes a feminist when he has a daughter”

    If said soccer daughter isn’t too young then perhaps chatting up Britney and accepting his primal urges and “masculine prerogative” could lead to some awkward thoughts? If he’s doing this, just what will they do to his baby girl in a few years?
    Essentially, the man is lying to himself about the nature of men, to protect his daughter.
    Or maybe he’s not and he’ll just lock her up in a few years.

    Is there a father out there who can give an opinion?

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  125. It’s hard to hit on chicks in front of your own kids and in front of theirs. But I’ve done it – usually spontaneously just cause I thought she looked hot and had perky titties that day. I’m 2/3 for followups when doing it. Chicks have done it to me too.

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  126. Especially since the men having the most graphic, aggressive sexual thoughts about them are the least attractive men. Alpha males are more at ease since they get so many women.

    the alpha males i’ve known harbor more deviant and perverted sexual thoughts than anything i’ve heard from anybody else. critical difference between alphas and betas? the alphas can act on their perversions.

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  127. > I think lots of women would be creeped out if they could read men’s minds.

    When I’m horny I’m always thinking of doing chicks. There was a time when there was a mediocre chick in a hajab in the grocery line in front of me and I couldn’t stop thinking about pulling on her hair while doing her doggy.

    But when my balls have been properly drained, I’m indifferent. A hot chick in a miniskirt will flip her hair and I just won’t care.

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  128. bs on that Tennessee story. Asking women for a threesome is criminalized nowhere in the States.

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  129. Why do you keep making fun of betas? You guys are MEAN.

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  130. arpagus

    Least attractive guys… Phillip Seymore Hoffman in Happiness. You mean that kind of thing?

    Like


  131. I was going to say that I really hope not ALL men are thinking extremely erotic/pornographic things constantly.

    Any man who is interacting with a woman who is even remotely attractive – and in this case, the woman is extremely attractive – who has no erotic / porno type thoughts is a eunuch, or might as well be. Heck, most of the time just looking at her is enough to get me going.

    I would die if a man talked about me the way some of these guys talk about women.

    Based on those myspace pics, you’d better choose your method of death, because I guarantee you have been talked about “that way”. You think the loser who knocked you up didn’t talk about you graphically to his buddies?

    Like


  132. Maybe a man smart enough to get himself to a position of power knows not to shit where he eats?
    Also, it makes little economic sense to hire staff based on if they’ll bang you.

    It depends on what will ultimately get you the most bang. Sometimes the best decision will be to hire someone who won’t bang you so you can make more money and bang someone else, sure, but often the two can be reasonably combined.

    The decision should be individual. Certainly, a law saying you can’t hit on your subordinates does not benefit men who aspire to be leaders, making it much less worthwile to put in the effort.

    And if the leaders are so smart, then there would be no need for such a law in the first place, so why are you complaining about me wanting to repeal it?

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  133. Perhaps, but every single place I’ve ever worked or ran has had ample skirt chasing and flirting going on. The women were equally guilty.

    Hell, yeah. What is more revolting though is when you have a lot of younger women who are totally manipulating the senior guys. The girls know the older married herb manager probably isn’t going to do anything, so there is no risk in playing on their pathetic unrequited lust to get plum assignments, promotions, and perqs, or to break into tears in order to get out of an undesirable or onerous task.

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  134. From my observation of working in several companies at a variety of levels from employee/mgr/exec/ownder:

    A man shitting where he eats is as likely to get her fired is it as to get him fired. I honestly know of only one occasion where it got an exec “fired” and even that case was mostly due to him hurling ethnic epithets at one of the other execs during a company wide meeting. Don’t worry about him – he made so much off of stock options that year that he was going to quit anyway.

    Not that I’m recommending it…

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  135. Certainly, a law saying you can’t hit on your subordinates does not benefit men who aspire to be leaders, making it much less worthwile to put in the effort.

    Fortunately for your leaders we don’t have such a law.

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  136. But when my balls have been properly drained, I’m indifferent. A hot chick in a miniskirt will flip her hair and I just won’t care.

    When you masturbate to porn every night, no woman’s evil tricks can turn you into her beta slave. Of course, the only exception are for freshly baked brownies and hugs…

    who has no erotic / porno type thoughts is a eunuch, or might as well be

    Or they have a porn addiction, and finds the erotic thoughts of most women to be laughable.

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  137. DA,

    Jerking off doesn’t properly drain balls. It’s more than an emotional effect; even the content of the semen is different. It’s like eating a garden burger instead of sirloin steak.

    Like


  138. arpagus

    It wasn’t a complaint, it was a question. I was going to ask how PUA it is to compel someone to have sex with you, or face job loss. But having read yr blog I assume that’s not something you are concerned with?
    But at the same time you say are pro-rape so that more men are not left without options or sex. But these are non-alphas. The successful business owner is an alpha. So he should have less need to force his employees into something? Or as an alpha he should be able to do what he wants?

    Like


  139. Fortunately for your leaders we don’t have such a law.

    I meant to say a law against hiring, promoting, or firing women based on sexual compliance. It is called quid pro quo sexual harassment, there is very much such a law and I totally oppose it. There are also all kinds of policies against hitting on subordinates. Try that in the military, for example.

    Like


  140. >If I owned a business or were in a position of power,
    > then of course I would make hiring or firing decisions
    > on the basis of whether women would sleep with me.

    I have 2 hot chicks working for me right now. And I’d be lying if I said there wasn’t a sexually charged undertone to ordering them around. Most of you guys here are younger and don’t know how hot it is to have multiple attractive women on hand during the workday eager to do shit work for you. The attraction works both ways – the first week or so they showed up dressed to kill (including spike heels) and they flirted a lot.

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  141. for all of the utopia talk, you know as well as anyone that it will never happen. because for every guy that gives “britney” a lust-filled staredown, there will be another guy that agrees with britney’s comment that that “guy is soooo creepy”.

    he’ll nod his head like a beta bobble-head. as long as men are villified for behaving that way, there will be huge barriers and large amounts of dick-deflating shame.

    i work with a large group of bulgarian women. they are flabergasted by the differences in flirtation in America compared to back home. Back home, if a man is attracted to a woman, he lets her know.

    Here, he is too scared of being creepy or being made to feel out-of-line. Women in Bulgaria, and most parts of Europe, will simply tell the man that she isn’t interested. The man usually moves on his way. But there is no social shaming of the man involved.

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  142. Arpagus is in pretty much the same place I am, except that I’m a slightly-more-competent PUA, and he’s willing to advocate coercion. I’m very scared and depressed, since I’ve always been an extrovert, and now my life has kept me cooped up in a routine. When I do get out, I’m try-hard. That is not good.

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  143. Chuck,

    I think there’s a difference in giving chicks a lust-filled staredown and and assertively letting them know that you think their worth spending an evening date with with romantic (ha!) intent. Do guys in Bulgaria really just check a chicks tits out or are they more slick than that?

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  144. JerrDogg:

    i’ve never really thought about it, but you’re right about the jerking off.

    the balls feel more drained, and there’s an empty, aching feeling in the stomach after sex compared to stroking it.

    oftentimes i’ll rub one out before work or before going to the gym no problemo. but after sex i’m walking around like a zombie for an hour or so.

    i’ve even been sick after a long fuck session (no alcohol involved), but i’ve never felt that way after masterbation.

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  145. Jerr:

    lust-filled staredown or asking for a date, women’s definition of creepy is wide-ranging, unfortunately.

    the bulgarian *guys* i know here in the states aren’t that smooth, but i don’t know how they are back in bulgaria. the ones here mainly talk dirty, and they are often unable to rift the cultural and language barrier to be successful with American women. the bulgarian guys i do know either date bulgarian chicks or remain single and celibate.

    its a small sample so i can’t claim any great revelation from it, but a lot of their lack of success has to do with working with mostly young, finicky, american girls.

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  146. Mp.:

    I was going to ask how PUA it is to compel someone to have sex with you, or face job loss.

    We can’t all be PUAs. A man should of course have the right to use any legitimate leverage he has to get sex, and that certainly includes whom he will fire or hire in his own business! As to rape, you quote me out of context. It is only when the cards are so stacked against men that legitimate means to get sex are banned and women forcibly take whatever they want from men through affirmative action that I am pro-rape.

    The successful business owner is an alpha. So he should have less need to force his employees into something?

    Perhaps, but no one has the right to say he can’t do it if he sees fit through legitimate actions like who should get to work for him.

    Like


  147. More like the bitch-made beta

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  148. It is called quid pro quo sexual harassment, there is very much such a law and I totally oppose it.

    Such laws not only benefit women, they also benefit men because it helps to even the playing field. I’d imagine many men here would be upset if they lost their promotion to a woman who only received the job because she was willing to trade for sexual favours.

    i work with a large group of bulgarian women. they are flabergasted by the differences in flirtation in America compared to back home.

    I suspect the direct nature of the men allows the women to feel comfortable in determining his motives, and the direct nature of the women allows the men to feel secure in asking without fear of LJBF or social shaming in the form of “creep” or “loser”.

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  149. A man should of course have the right to use any legitimate leverage he has to get sex

    Sounds like the words of a sub-human male.

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  150. arpagus

    who should get to, or who should cease to?

    “I will hire you, but sleep with me first”

    “If you don’t sleep with me, you will lose your job”

    Morally, they’re different shades of grey. Do you endorse both?

    In another of yr posts you mentioned something about feminist definitions of rape. What do you define as rape, and what do you believe is not rape?

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  151. I read some interesting stats. Basically middle aged cat ladies are killing themselves in ever increasing numbers and the supposed health boost married men received is declining. Here is the link:

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-urban-scientist/200811/are-women-dying-in-the-war-love

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  152. mp.

    i’m going to jump in here…

    this is difficult terrain….

    first off, “if you don’t sleep with me, you will lose your job” should not be tolerated. if sleeping with the boss was not part of the original “job description” or contract, then it can’t be added to the list of duties afterward.

    otoh, if it is explicitly stated up-front that getting the job is contingent upon sleeping with the boss, then i don’t think this should be considered any kind of punishable offense. while it may not be pleasant, the ball is in the prospective employee’s court.

    now, if the boss is merely some sort of mid-level manager, the company would be wise to squash his contingency b/c it probably will hurt the profitability of the company in the long run. so, unless the boss is the guy at the very top of a privately owned company (therefore he’s the only one held accountable for stupid decisions) then this type of behavior should be and will be weeded out of the job-hiring process.

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  153. Chuck

    You could back it up with some sort of catchy slogan

    Keep the casting couch for the corporates!

    Replace all those tired kittens clinging to tree branches with this (“Hang in there!”) A warning and incentivizing at the same time. The money saved on lawsuits could be spent on whores for a middle management knees up. That’s how they do it an Asia.
    From what I gather it boosts morale and engenders team building.

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  154. Arpagus said:
    > right to use any leverage he has to get sex,

    You shouldn’t need to use _leverage_. That’s not what a chick wants (in fact that’s the last thing they want)- it’s just that they are naturally attracted to men with more power and status and you just happen to be that guy that is both good looking, fun, and has the status that her pussy craves. If you have to say “sleep with me for favors” you’ve lost.

    In order to bang a subordinate, you have to be different with your game… you have to follow her lead in the flirting while at work and you have to work doubly hard to make it clear that it’s all about fun, secrecy, and NO COMMITMENT .

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  155. banging subordinates involves the least amount of game. it is the weakest form of fornication other than prostitution.

    as jerrdog said, chicks will drool over any man that is their boss, doesn’t really matter what he looks like….they just love the power that he wields….

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  156. Banging a subordinate is about as smart as banging an underage girl. It might feel good at the time but how do you stop banging them (unless its her idea) without becoming vulnerable to the vengeance of a “woman scorned”? In both cases, they can cry to the right people and you will bleed.

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  157. on June 17, 2009 at 1:01 am Epoxytocin No. 87

    Banging a subordinate is about as smart as banging an underage girl. It might feel good at the time but how do you stop banging them (unless its her idea) without becoming vulnerable to the vengeance of a “woman scorned”?

    Yeah. Don’t play with fire in a situation where you’re doused with gasoline every day.
    Seriously.

    If you must use hot subordinates for something, use them as wingwomen. If you’re the boss, they should be more than willing to DHV you up.

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  158. mp.:

    “I will hire you, but sleep with me first”

    “If you don’t sleep with me, you will lose your job”

    The first is perfectly fine. The second case might be a little morally problematic, but should not be criminalized.

    In another of yr posts you mentioned something about feminist definitions of rape. What do you define as rape, and what do you believe is not rape?

    Rape is sexual intercourse with a woman not your wife against her will and that she resists to the best of her ability unless she or someone she commonly protects will probably be killed or severely injured. It is also intentional and the man understands that he is conquering her by force. Anything else is not rape.

    Feminists see it very differently. In Norway if you, say, threaten to start a rumor about a woman, and she has sex to prevent it, then the man is a rapist. Any kind of threat or threatening demeanor will do. Even perfectly legitimate threats, such as a husband threatening divorce if his wife won’t have sex or a man threatening to report a woman for an actual crime unless he gets sex, is sufficient. Men have lost any leverage whatsoever to get sex, and furthermore rape is whatever sex a woman later regrets if she was too intoxicated to resist, which is very easy to claim. Mens rea for rape was abolished as a requirement in 2000, so now Norwegian men can be rapists without knowing it. There has already been lots of convictions for negligent rape, where the man simply “ought to” have known that the woman actually did not want it. The concept bears no resemblance to what is traditionally meant by rape. The woman shall not even be bothered to make her refusal known to the man, much less resist to the best of her ability, and the damage the woman yields to prevent does not even have to be a crime. We are all rapists now, so being a rapist is not a big deal and women who cry rape do not deserve any sympathy.

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  159. on June 17, 2009 at 1:04 am Epoxytocin No. 87

    Arpagus:

    A man should of course have the right to use any legitimate leverage he has to get sex, and that certainly includes whom he will fire or hire in his own business!

    If you believe this, then a fortiori you must also believe that married women should not work (or should all be self employed).

    Do you believe that, too?

    If not, then you’re effectively saying that even married women must fuck their bosses upon request or be fired. And if that’s what you’re saying, God help you if you ever run a business.

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  160. @ Apargus

    “The second case might be a little morally problematic, but should not be criminalized.”

    SRSLY?

    So, you just don’t think women in any sort of committed relationship should have a job?

    You shouldn’t need “leverage” to obtain sex.

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  161. JerrDogg:

    You shouldn’t need to use _leverage_. That’s not what a chick wants

    I agree, it is far from ideal, and perhaps seldom necessary because gaming subordinates is relatively easy. All I am arguing for is your _right_ to use legitimate leverage, which is decisions you would have the right to make anyway because you are the boss. As a last resort I would use it.

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  162. mp.

    Even perfectly legitimate threats, such as a husband threatening divorce if his wife won’t have sex or a man threatening to report a woman for an actual crime unless he gets sex, is sufficient.

    A crime she actually committed? Come on, the latter is not legitimate. It is coercion, not forceful rape. But it is not legitimate.
    And it would have been frowned upon even in pre-feminist days.

    And ‘resist to the best of her ability’? Fight tooth and nail? A grand strategy but humans and animals alike, when in terror and feeling overwhelmingly threatened, will shut down. Scare a rabbit enough and it’ll go limp.
    It’s a tricky area to prove, that one.

    Forgive me for pursuing the topic, but I find yr answers interesting. So let’s have some examples

    Drink spiked in bar (let’s ignore bar = slutty girl and say she’s having a drink with friends)

    Attacked outside parents’ house late one night. Beaten, strangled, etc.

    Husband requests sex and is rebuffed (headache, period, early start) for the night. The follow up, see sections of above.

    Are these again differing shades of grey?

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  163. on June 17, 2009 at 1:24 am Epoxytocin No. 87

    The second case might be a little morally problematic, but should not be criminalized.

    Besides, it’s not “criminalized” anyway.

    Since you’re still here, I will pose my question again: Do you think that married women, or even women who are committed to their boyfriends, should not work?

    Like


  164. arpagus

    does your idea of legitimate leverage extend to female and homosexual bosses?

    Like


  165. Epoxytocin, LILGRL–

    I think what Chuck said earlier was reasonable. A boss can’t change the contract later and fire women for not sleeping with him if it was never in the job description. However, it should not be considered “sexual harassment,” either; not some special crime meriting ridiculous compensation. It should be treated as the same as firing her for no reason. If he has the right to fire her for no reason, then firing her for not having sex is also legitimate. Otherwise, whatever contract is in effect should apply.

    Women in committed relationships should make sure their contract states that sex with the boss is not part of the job.

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  166. arpagus:

    “Women in committed relationships should make sure their contract states that sex with the boss is not part of the job.”

    you have it *completely* backward. while i think outlandish settlements for sexual harrassment are ridiculous, the burden should not be on the employee.

    since 99.9% of jobs don’t have sex in the job description, it would be unreasonable for a contract to state that sex isn’t involved. rather, if sex *is* sought by the boss, he can put it in the contract. if the employee agrees, then its on her. the problem is that he probably won’t be able to employ very many women, and he’ll likely not be very profitable.

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  167. I sometimes want to take a shit in the train right there in front of everyone, but I don’t. If you want to let women know every single thought you are having, then do that. In the meantime, maybe you should stop being creepily obsessed with what other people are doing all the time.

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  168. Arpagus

    re yr missive to Epoxytocin and LILGRL.
    He’d have less incentive to hire partnered up women, which is taking us back to pre-fem 1950s, which means yr ideas naturally perpetuate yr anti-fem standpoint.
    Pat on the back Arpagus.
    But how’s this going to affect dating longerterm? Women need jobs, unless they have wealthy parents or marry at 18 to men who can support them.
    If there is always a risk (and there isn’t really always a risk because plenty of companies are run by women, gays, married men and men not interested in subjugating the subordinates, plus staffed by hotter women than our standard-issue ‘Hypothetical Gal’) of the boss tapping her for a shag then isn’t it going to make any man more wary of “investing resources”, as you PUAs put it, in her? And if she quits work that’s immediately a more serious relationship for them (“look what I gave up!”) and more responsibility for him.
    Or she can ask the boss to add a “no sex” clause into her contract.
    Even though the whole concept is a little outlandish in any more than one man’s hopeful general principal, things complicate quickly.

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  169. yes Chuck, we’ve had it arseways. Your idea is the better

    But at least following things along to just one of many seemingly logical conclusions is kinda interesting, right?

    Then again, how would contractual negotiations work out? For a fair workplace agreement you’d need to specify number of times, duration, performance expected. One can’t just say “sex”.

    Like


  170. To: G Manifesto and Obsidian

    I used to frequent Adams Morgan a year ago, and now I am starting to go again ’till UMCP starts again.

    From what I’ve seen there isn’t much grabbing-girls, and even less cat-calling. Nothing out of the ordinary, just the occasional guys who pull on a girls arm to get their attention.

    It is not a major thing as I saw in Iguana Cantina back in 2006 in Baltimore (the 1st and last time I went there). There every girl that was decent looking was getting pulled on. The result was an extreme hostility towards any guy who approached the girls. (the 1st and only time I was elbowed by women when I approached them)

    ————–
    As for cat-calling hispanics thats a culture thing. Is kinda of like a direct way of letting a women know you are interested in her. But thats it.

    Anglo-Saxon women tend to see cat-calls as “threatening” because they are not used to them nor understand them.

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  171. mp.:

    does your idea of legitimate leverage extend to female and homosexual bosses?

    Sure. The homosexual boss I would just not work for, and sex with a female is a good thing.

    A crime she actually committed? Come on, the latter is not legitimate. It is coercion, not forceful rape. But it is not legitimate.
    And it would have been frowned upon even in pre-feminist days.

    Yes, actually committed. I know that kind of non-forceful sexual coercion has been illegal for a while, but in 2000 it was lumped into the rape law and is henceforth known as rape. While I certainly never agreed with legitimate sexual coercion being against the law, it used to be a very minor offense, punishable by up to one year. Now it is called rape and the punishment is up to 21 years. That is how feminist rape reform works. They are forever expanding the definition and hoping men will be demonized as much for it as we formerly were for real rape. I hope this will only increase contempt for women, which is certainly the effect it has on me, while real victims of rape will be taken less seriously because most of the “rape” we hear about is so absurd. Actual rapists will profit from this.

    Sex with very intoxicated or unconscious women was also a lesser offense not called rape until 2000, when that too was redefined as “rape” and punishable by up to 21 years, from one formerly. I don’t accept it.

    And ‘resist to the best of her ability’? Fight tooth and nail?

    Yes, unless she is getting killed. Or else there was no rape. Anyone can say they were too afraid to resist, and that is what they legally can now. This is totally unacceptable to men. We can’t have women getting away with getting us convicted for rape with no evidence.

    Drink spiked in bar (let’s ignore bar = slutty girl and say she’s having a drink with friends)

    Could lead to the lesser offense of sex with an unconscious woman, which I agree is a crime if her drink was spiked against her will, but not rape, unless she fought tooth and nail of course.

    Attacked outside parents’ house late one night. Beaten, strangled, etc.

    Could easily be rape.

    Husband requests sex and is rebuffed (headache, period, early start) for the night. The follow up, see sections of above.

    My definition of rape includes “a woman not your wife,”
    so there can be no rape.

    Are these again differing shades of grey?

    Yes. It is feminists who believe everything is rape and there are no shades of grey.

    Like


  172. @ Chuck

    “since 99.9% of jobs don’t have sex in the job description, it would be unreasonable for a contract to state that sex isn’t involved”

    SRSLY.

    Like


  173. arpagus

    They all seem anathema to game. And sordid.
    Surely one can aim higher than blackmail and drink spiking?
    Really, why not stick to hookers if you’re advancing these as legitimate (supposing that they did not carry these new sentences) ways to get laid. A financial transaction seems less messy than even a potential one year sentence. Contrast even a month of posh blow jobs with Bollinger champagne and all to a year of lost earnings.

    Another hypothetical: Sex is subsidised by the state, which given yr in Scandinavia almost sounds plausible. Does this impact the legitimacy of said coercions?

    In a wider context: a larger number of raped or coerced women will equal a larger number of damaged, distrustful, possibly men-hating women.

    How does that affect men long term?

    Like


  174. And, lastly, why is this coercion ‘legitimate’? Why may a man blackmail a woman into sex?

    Like


  175. What should we call it if a woman says to her boss, “If you don’t fuck me I will say that you raped me”???

    Like


  176. Rum

    Round the twist. And he should call the police.

    Like


  177. mp

    If the guy has a tape recording of what she said, she might go to jail. If he does not, he will certainly go to jail if the police get involved.

    Like


  178. Cross examination, DNA, witnesses…
    how often are people locked up on such specious grounds, any stats?

    Like


  179. A financial transaction seems less messy than even a potential one year sentence.

    Buying sex (but not selling! women are always innocent) was just criminalized on January 1st this year, and carries a sentence up to one year. This law also applies to Norwegian men abroad, in the whole world, even where prostitution is legal.

    I can assure you sex subsidized by the state is not happening anytime soon in Scandinavia. Men are the enemy and we are getting nothing but ever-increasing sentences for sex. There is no way I can have sex without being a criminal, even in theory, so frankly I don’t care if I am a john or a rapist.

    The man-hate can’t get any worse, so I am not worried about damaging women and have no respect for them.

    Like


  180. When Beta has a go, duh, it’s potential sexual harassment. A woman’s not going to complain when an Alpha has a go because some of them would feel privileged that they attracted an Alpha if only for coversation. A greater Beta might get away with it if they play their cards right but lesser Betas should go the way of the Omega – your chances of her not finding you creepy are slim. After all, if you’re a mediocre (if not outright bad) player would you find it bad if a sexy woman came up to you, talked in a sexual manner and even start to touch you in various places? On the other hand, would you sit by and have the uglest woman imaginable do the same thing? Pig’s arse, you would! Just as men wouldn’t find a beautiful woman harassing nor will a woman complain if a handsome man did that which would land ordinary guys in jail.

    The Slate herb article – piffle. The problem – Japan has a disproportion amount of Omega males. Either that or they care about how are Omega males because of a nose-diving birth-rate. But then since when do women want Omegas? Alphas are for fun and Betas are for marrying. Besides Omegas are at the bottom of the social order and the economic order. Gee, why again does he not date nor spend money? The plot thinnens!! Omegas don’t bother to hit on women because women are repulsed by them and Omegas don’t earn the money where a woman will fake interest in him for an hour. XBoxes and Playstations cost a helluva lot less than dating and prostitutes and a fictitious female isn’t repulsed by his presence. After all, “if it’s hard to do, it’s not worth trying”.

    Like


  181. arpagus

    My question was actually a hypothetical. Silly as your law may be, I’m not concerned with it. I’m concerned with the ‘if’ right now.

    Though on the … realer side of things, how can you not have sex without being a criminal? Is it just that yr crap at picking up?

    Ok readers, john or rapist, which is it?

    Like


  182. And, lastly, why is this coercion ‘legitimate’? Why may a man blackmail a woman into sex?

    Because then the sex wasn’t worse than whatever the man threatened her with, since she after all had a choice, and the crime is no worse than that. If he threatens with something perfectly legal and legitimate, then there was no crime at all.

    Like


  183. which crimes are excluded from this, if any?

    Like


  184. mp

    Only fools and lunatics trust the courts & judicial process.

    Like


  185. @ Arpagus

    (Sorry, I misspelled your name earlier)

    Two things:

    1) It seems kind of preposterous that if it’s not stipulated in your contract, your boss would be able to legally coerce you into having sex with him/her. Even if we go gender-neutral, there are actually a lot of people out there who don’t want to be forced to have sex. Men and women.

    2) It seems like it wouldn’t make for a very productive office, if everyone was getting hired/fired on the basis of sex. Or even having lots of sex with each other. That’s all. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that there’s probably a reason most people choose to keep work separate from their personal lives.

    Like


  186. I assume you mean America?
    but the question you posited, how likely is that situation to occur?

    Like


  187. Only threatening with death or serious injury makes it rape in the real, non-feminist sense.

    Though on the … realer side of things, how can you not have sex without being a criminal? Is it just that yr crap at picking up?

    Yes.

    Like


  188. How old are you? You look pretty young in yr pics.

    Like


  189. >most people choose to keep work separate
    >from their personal lives.

    How many marriages result from work or collegial acquaintances? I don’t know maybe 35% or more? Few people (esp men) are good looking and studly enough to run solid game in bars. Even if you can you’re just getting bar hotties which isn’t an effective personality screen.

    Most work affairs do NOT blow up into a big deal and are discrete. One only seems to remember the rare disasters.

    Like


  190. mp.,

    I’m 31.

    Like


  191. so you have plenty of time to improve? or get that foreign bride you suggested?

    Like


  192. @ JerrDogg

    Ok, I agree with that. A lot of work-relationships turn out very well. What I meant was, most people are not having crazy sex with all of their colleagues. I guess, most people keep casual sex and work separate.

    Like


  193. Arpagus,

    Your descriptions of extreme interpretations of rape law in Norway bring up an important and neglected element of any free and just society: JUROR NULIFICATION. If the law or judges instructions are so ridiculous or unduly broad so as to define normal patterns of male/female sexual behavior as “felonious rape” that convicts more than a percent or two of men, it is your duty as a juror to nullify the law.

    Like


  194. so you have plenty of time to improve? or get that foreign bride you suggested?

    Yes, all hope is not lost yet.

    Getting a foreign bride is in fact what 10% of all men here who get married currently do. Will take me a while to get there financially though.

    Like


  195. [email protected]
    “…sounds like a pretty good description of Saudi Arabia and other stagnant, autocratic, awful Muslim countries..”

    1.A question or two . Have you ever traveled to Saudi Arabia?

    2. Is autocracy a negative thing by necessity, essentially, in every circumstance?

    Like


  196. on June 17, 2009 at 3:49 am Epoxytocin No. 87

    One only seems to remember the rare disasters.

    Disasters that are rare are still, well, disastrous.

    The risk of fucking a chick who works for you** is just too great. If you’re desperate enough and/or have shitty enough game that this option is even on your table, go get an escort and a glass of ‘gnac. Bonus: You can even pick the hair color and body type you want!

    Few people (esp men) are good looking and studly enough to run solid game in bars.

    Not true. I smell keyboard jockey.

    Looks aren’t terribly important to the success of a pickup, as long as you’re not Brian Peppers or the elephant man.
    Different looks demand different styles of pickup, as I said here, but looks don’t correlate directly with chances of success.
    IE Given your personality, your looks could be an asset or a liability. A “male 10” who comes on in a non-sexual, “opinion opener” sort of way is not going to do very well.

    And “studly” is entirely under your control, although it takes practice.

    Few men these days have the stones to accept rejection, so they don’t bother trying. THAT is the problem.

    You’re talking as though pickup requires virtuoso levels of skill to produce ROI, which is simply not the case. Not at all.

    Like


  197. Asparagus, by your logic someone who was mugged cannot claim a crime was committed. If a mugger says “give me your money or you get stabbed” and the victim chooses to hand over money then he did ‘voluntarily’ because there was ‘choice’ and no violence was used merely the threat of violence.

    Like


  198. Holy sh!t. No mens rea AND judicial extraterritoriality for the prohibition of soliciting? And you’re in the EU, so you can be prosecuted for “sex tourism” in the UK, Germany, and the Netherlands, where it is LEGAL under certain conditions. What do you care, indeed? “No humans involved”, as we used to say in certain places in certain cities in America.

    I never thought I’d be grateful for the English Common Law origins of American law, and yet I am.

    Like


  199. on June 17, 2009 at 3:53 am Epoxytocin No. 87

    from above:
    ** = Assuming you’re some sort of middle manager. Like gravity, the risk decreases the farther up you go, and is negligible at stratospheric levels.

    Like


  200. JerrDogg–

    That is what is happening: Juries often refuse to convict based on the feminist definition of rape. The feminists are making considerable noise about that and a movement is afoot to abolish the jury so they can get more convictions.

    Like


  201. The foreign bride thing might work well for men with poor game or who are dorky but otherwise good guys. In fact it might be good even for men with good domestic prospects as well. The foreign bride thing is not a sign of desperation. I just don’t think I’d trust the “mail-order” crap and would instead just camp out in a country as an expat for several months. There are a lot of scams. But broadly many women are from small towns and are looking for love and soulmates with a man who isn’t an alcoholic putz like most of the men in their hometown and are intrigued with the idea of living abroad where perhaps some professional aspirations can be better met as well. Foreign chicks will not be able to tell that you are dorky because they aren’t aware of all that stuff.

    Like


  202. Gil:

    Asparagus, by your logic someone who was mugged cannot claim a crime was committed. If a mugger says “give me your money or you get stabbed” and the victim chooses to hand over money then he did ‘voluntarily’ because there was ‘choice’ and no violence was used merely the threat of violence.

    That would be enough even for rape by my definition. Read it again. Stabbing is serious injury, possibly fatal.

    Now if the mugger said “give me your money or I start a rumor that you are gay” or something like that, there would be no crime. That is the level of threat which passes for rape. In fact the rumor example is taken straight from the official propaganda of Norwegian legislators where they explain the current legal concept of rape since the latest expansion in 2000.

    Like


  203. on June 17, 2009 at 4:07 am Epoxytocin No. 87

    The foreign bride thing might work well for men with poor game or who are dorky but otherwise good guys.

    If you’re going to bring one back to the States, you’re still going to need game.
    Her “training” will certainly help, but, life over here will sneak its pernicious little tentacles into her psyche to some extent, whether you like it or not. Unless she’s exceptionally headstrong.

    Also, I think you’re severely underestimating the mercenary mentality required of a woman who’s willing to leave her traditional culture to marry (and move transoceanically with) a man with whom she shares essentially NO cultural connections.

    99% of women who are willing to do this are gonna want lots of green stuff. Green card, greenbacks, green lights.

    Like


  204. Agreed Epoxy. Maybe this comment will go through, my switching of computers and browsers seem to give WordPress fits sigh.

    Like


  205. Hey it works. Add — forget “coercion” wrt sex in the workplace. Think massive BigLaw Lawsuit against a target Fortune 500 firm (think deep pockets) for discrimination … against Men … because of toleration of women using sex/promise of sex to get ahead. You’ld have to conduct a “mass P.I. investigation,” but that’s why BigLaw has the Pinkertons on speed dial. Suss out say the 200 attractive women in the division, get on tape/camera sex or promise of same with supervisors etc and compare preferential treatment with that of Joe Schmoe. Go to court and collect millions.

    Ladies — this is why men resent you in the workforce. We don’t look good in heels.

    Like


  206. FWIW, I’m using Opera. Firefox/Camino were no-go. Opera seems to work. It’s pretty fast too. If your posts get eaten, try Opera browser. Working for me now.

    Like


  207. Here in Sweden there are large amounts of importing going on. Having lived here for a few years I can see why -Swedish women are a nightmare (I was actually married to one – started off as the sweetest girl I’d ever met but once we had a kid she started getting a bit arsey and then once she got the wedding ring she turned into a bitch). The only good thing about “progessive” Sweden is that there’s no such thing as alimony and as we have joint custody of our daughter no child support either.

    Feels good to be my own man again.

    I was at a party at the weekend and was chatting to a workmate when this woman (over 30 but still pretty hot) came up to us and interrupted our conversation and told us we should now change the subject because a “girl” was present. She then went on about how she’s looking for a man and listed all the things she expected of him – earning money, taking care of the house and car, cooking, cleaning – pretty much everything. I used my “anti femininazi” game (works well here) and had her begging for it. She really didn’t understand that over 30 she should start lowering her standards a bit. She looked downcast later on when she realised that I was actually going to bang one of the 20-something students instead.

    The sense of entitlement that Swedish women have is astounding.

    Like


  208. About using one’s position to get sexual favors from subordinates.

    Again, it depends on the man. Bill Clinton never lost the support of his wife or the feminists despite his behavior in public office.

    How many people condemn Ray Charles for insisting that any woman who worked in his band had to sleep with him?

    No, it is just the betas who need to follow the rules. Which is about the best reason I can think of to not be a beta.

    Like


  209. the alpha males i’ve known harbor more deviant and perverted sexual thoughts than anything i’ve heard from anybody else. critical difference between alphas and betas? the alphas can act on their perversions.

    Many betas try to suppress their more deviant desires. They buy into the lie that they need to live to seek female approval.

    Alphas are constantly thinking and talking about pussy and what they want to do to it.

    Like


  210. Here, he is too scared of being creepy or being made to feel out-of-line. Women in Bulgaria, and most parts of Europe, will simply tell the man that she isn’t interested. The man usually moves on his way. But there is no social shaming of the man involved.

    That’s because in America we’ve raised a generation of delicate little drama queens who were taught to believe that the Constitution gives them the right to never be annoyed or bothered. Maybe if we raised our daughters to be mature women, and to accept interest as a compliment, and to respectfully decline when they’re not interested, we would have less sexual harassment BS, and fewer men turning into ”creepy” betas/omegas because of their difficulty in dealing with the sting of rejection. Rejection from a considerate woman is easy to accept and move on from. But there aren’t many of those left in America.

    I understand the bitch shield theory, but to have a bitch shield you must first have a bitch. A woman can reject most of the unwanted advances she receives with a smile and a simple ”thank you, but I have a boyfriend” or ”thank you, but I’m not interested.” Granted she will have to step it up a notch for some guys, but since when did it become impossible for American women to actually be nice?

    Like


  211. on June 17, 2009 at 6:41 am Epoxytocin No. 87

    the alpha males i’ve known harbor more deviant and perverted sexual thoughts than anything i’ve heard from anybody else.

    Really?

    Clearly you’ve never been privy to the sordid depths of women’s sexual fantasies. That’s some shit right there, I tell ya.

    We men fantasize, in the main, about stuff that we actively want to do to/with women.

    Women, on the other hand, fantasize regularly about shit that goes way way WAY beyond what they’d actually want to do in real life.

    I’ve heard fantasies from the sweetest young things that would make most decent guys turn white with horror and/or revulsion.
    Especially in terms of shit they wanted to see me do to other women.
    Oh man.

    Like


  212. on June 17, 2009 at 6:42 am Epoxytocin No. 87

    I don’t know why there are backslashes in front of all my apostrophes in the above post.

    Like


  213. Take a good look at Arpagus. This will be the end result of extreme feminism: men who have so little respect for women that they become extreme in their opinions of and actions towards women, when they could have made good lovers or fathers in a different society.

    Modern women need to wake up to a very sobering thought: they are not safe in this world unless men choose to protect them. In any real, physical ”battle of the sexes” they don’t stand a chance.

    They enjoy the safety of government now. But in a world full of angry betas who have given up, or worse, have chosen to become criminals, women are prey. Just look at what happens to women in any broken, dysfunctional culture or society. Or in any nation that is invaded during war. It’s never, ever pretty.

    If feminists actually had brains they would realize that for women to be safe, productive, and happy men must be invested in society. Ideally male sexual desire must be channeled into monogamy and the creation of a family, with reasonable assurances for each man that his family is his and will not be taken away by a court on behalf of a cheating wife.

    Cock blocking the average male with sexual harassment laws, no fault divorces, biased family courts which rape men, extreme laws which turn all men into creeps and rapists…all this is going to do is produce a nation of men who don’t give a shit and won’t lift a finger to support society or protect women. The darling little feminists can’t see past this to the hell that will result when society starts to crumble.

    Norway, huh? I wonder how many years that civilization has left. Anyone want to place bets? I’ll have to look up the Muslim immigration rate before placing mine.

    Like


  214. Why am I getting before my quotes? Smart quotes from the text editor I used maybe?

    Like


  215. Epoxytocin –

    This reminds me of an earlier post I made, under a different topic, about the common themes on Lifetime, Oxygen, and the popularity of ”creepy violence” type films with women. It got brushed off as women seeking cheap thrills, like men watching war or slasher movies, but I don’t buy it. I’ve heard a few sickening fantasies from women. It was quite clear they would never really want to do it, but why do they become obsessed with things that are so violent/sick/revolting? Why fantasize about something you never want to do? And I don’t mean ”don’t want to do it because of risk to reputation or health.” I mean ”don’t want to do it because it is sickening and violent.”

    I’ve never understood this aspect of women.

    Like


  216. on June 17, 2009 at 7:06 am Epoxytocin No. 87

    It was quite clear they would never really want to do it

    Here`s the fuller version.

    They would never want to do these things themselves.

    However, a great many of these women – who come across, externally, as good-girl-next-door types – would, I`ve concluded, be more than glad to have me bring these deep, dark fantasies to fruition.
    I`ve no doubt.

    Women routinely use men as weapons, so this is nothing new.

    Like


  217. “the alpha males i’ve known harbor more deviant and perverted sexual thoughts than anything i’ve heard from anybody else. critical difference between alphas and betas? the alphas can act on their perversions.”

    I’m sure D. Alexander sexual thoughts would match, if not outdo, most people’s for deviance and perversion. Actually Alphas are probably over all less perverted as they know what’s works in real life and what’s only would work in fantasy.

    Like


  218. on June 17, 2009 at 8:21 am Epoxytocin No. 87

    Actually Alphas are probably over all less perverted as they know what’s works in real life

    “Knowing what works in real life” has made me more perverted, not less.

    Your making this statement shows that, ironically, you have no idea what works in real life. You probably wouldn’t believe me if I told you.

    The Roman statesman Tertullian once stated that woman is a temple built atop a sewer.
    The man knew that of which he spoke.

    Like


  219. I think Tertullian was talking about god and his town planning, putting a sewer so close to a playground and all that.

    Like


  220. on June 17, 2009 at 8:28 am Epoxytocin No. 87

    I think Tertullian was talking about god and his town planning, putting a sewer so close to a playground and all that.

    Fine.

    Then the great Epoxytocin No. 87 said that.
    He knows that of which he speaks.

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  221. I’d be more inclined to believe you if we got some concrete examples, not amorphous allusions to them wanting you to do … things to them or others.

    Like


  222. @Epoxytocin No. 87

    “They would never want to do these things themselves.”

    Ya, what HE said! He does know that of which he speaks.

    Like


  223. on June 17, 2009 at 8:38 am Epoxytocin No. 87

    I’d be more inclined to believe you if we got some concrete examples, not amorphous allusions to them wanting you to do … things to them or others.

    Heh. Use your imagination, sir. Better yet, ask some women in the throes of passion, should you ever have the chance to avail yourself of women in the throes of passion.

    You’re onto something with the “concrete”, though, as concrete has played a starring role in a few of these fantasies.

    Like


  224. on June 17, 2009 at 8:40 am Epoxytocin No. 87

    Aoefe

    Ya, what HE said! He does know that of which he speaks.

    As do you.

    You are a refreshing bit of gold in a sea of pyrite, Aoefe, from what I’ve seen.

    Don’t fuck it up.

    Like


  225. I mean “standard fare amongst westerners”….yikes.

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  226. Having read this blog for a little while now I’ve noticed more than one Dune reader among the commenters, and I believe our author has paraphrased some maxims along the way.
    What would the good Reverend Mother make of this? Would he, and some others, pass the Human test?

    Like


  227. “And I would walk out proudly, head held high, dignity intact. A victory for my balls. A defeat for polite society.”

    your delusions of grandeur are one of the many reasons I return to this blog time and time again…keep it up Narcissus!

    (I make this statement with absolutely no sarcasm…)

    Like


  228. on June 17, 2009 at 10:38 am Days of Broken Arrows

    Epoxytocin No. 87:
    They would never want to do these things themselves.

    However, a great many of these women – who come across, externally, as good-girl-next-door types – would, I`ve concluded, be more than glad to have me bring these deep, dark fantasies to fruition.
    I`ve no doubt.

    I would watch out for this. I used to engange in phone fantasies of this sort for years with a longtime female friend (I’d talk dark, dirty things while she used a vibrator).

    One night we were together and we decided to live out one particularly violent fantasy. The next day she called and said she never wanted to speak to me again because of “what I did.”

    End of friendship. Have not spoken to her in six years and this was a friendship (with occasional sex) than went on since we were both 18.

    Some fantasies should remain fantasies.

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  229. Days of Broken Arrows said:

    One night we were together and we decided to live out one particularly violent fantasy. The next day she called and said she never wanted to speak to me again because of “what I did.”

    dooood – don’t leave the audience hangin’

    end the suspense

    it literally begs the question – wtf did you do exactly

    crucifix buttplay?
    shocker with hangnails?
    ATM
    goatse?
    goatrape?

    Like


  230. What is more narcissistic than the feminist demand that THEY should never, ever be bothered by even the slightest awareness that men have desires?

    Like


  231. Tarl

    It likely depends on the feminist but wouldn’t many be more interested in the expression of those desires than said desires themselves? Then again, I’m working from a position of ignorance having never been to America.
    ).

    Like


  232. Why should women care if random men have desires and fantasies? I’m sure that they are aware of the fact that men fantasize, but why should men constantly bother a girl by making her aware of it all the time? Imagine how bored you would be if you had random, unattractrive to you people coming up and expressing their desire for you all the time? Wouldn’t you get annoyed, especially if you were very attractive, and thus had tons of people coming on to you all the time?

    I know for, in their minds it must be great to have a women throwing themselves at you, because in their minds the women would be gorgeous and nubile. But just imagine if you had a bunch of gay guys coming on to you all the time. Not even handsome gay guys most of the time, but the old, and the dumpy, and hulking nasty ones who won’t take no for an answer. How much fun would that be for most guys? I imagine not so much, as most guys go crazy when someone gay hits on them, and they aren’t gay themselves. Though it can’t be any more annoying or threatening than when a guy hits on a woman, and she is really not that into them.

    Basically this post is bemoaning the fact that even more women aren’t walking around in fear for their safety and well-being. I don’t think that is something to lament, rather a great feature of living in a civilized society.

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  233. Arpagus,
    1. You need to grasp the difference between criminal and civil liability.
    2. You are as extreme as the people who argue that women and men can never have consensual sex because the society is so permeated with paternalism and sexism that no woman can truly consent; coercion is always present. Get a grip.

    Ladies — this is why men resent you in the workforce. We don’t look good in heels.
    But you look way better in suits than we do, and yours are way more comfortable. Also, I’m convinced major bonding somehow occurs near the urinals and that’s why the bosses love the (straight) males so … (and that it seriously behooves a woman to dress circumspectly at work, which kind of screws you for happy hour. )

    Like


  234. Maybe not in the US, but some countries certainly have criminalized sexual harassment, particularly quid pro quo:

    http://www.stopvaw.org/Criminal_Law2.html

    France and the Philippines are examples of countries with criminal laws against quid pro quo sexual harassment. The French Penal Code specifies that the “harassment of another person for the purpose of obtaining favours of a sexual nature is punished by one year’s imprisonment and a fine of € 15,000.” French Penal Code, Article 222-33. The Philippines has criminalized this form of sexual harassment in its Republic Act No. 7877, Act Declaring Sexual Harassment Unlawful in the Employment, Education or Training Environment, and for Other Purposes (1995). The act provides that sexual harassment is committed in a work-related or employment environment when, among other instances:

    The sexual favor is made as a condition in the hiring or in the employment, re-employment or continued employment of said individual, or in granting said individual favorable compensation, terms, conditions, promotions, or privileges; or the refusal to grant the sexual favor results in limiting, segregating or classifying the employee which in a way would discriminate, deprive or diminish employment opportunities or otherwise adversely affect said employee.

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  235. Anonymous is the perfect example of the massively entitled female perspective. She insists that only attractive males (alphas) should be allowed to express any normal male desire, while beta males should basically shut up and go away. She can’t even begin to appreciate that “imagine if you were female and all sort of icky betas came on to you” is not an argument that most men would find interesting or convincing.

    “Why should men constantly bother a girl by making her aware of it all the time?” — the answer is, in the great majority of cases it shouldn’t bother her at all that men are “bothering” her.

    Like


  236. on June 17, 2009 at 12:24 pm Comment_Whatever

    Many women enjoy playing Second-Degree Rapo in America, and I’ll admit it does get tiring.

    The bouncing young woman was probably playing Second-Degree Rapo. As White, she dresses sexily, bounces all over the place, then when Black indicates interest she says ‘buzz off’.

    http://www.ericberne.com/games/games_people_play_rapo.htm

    Now, First-Degree can be fun for both sides, IF White is a good sport about it. However, most women in America don’t seem able to do that anymore. First-Degree Rapo is indeed a good way for men to lose approach anxiety, provided that the woman is a good sport about it.

    If White is a very hard player, then after successfully abusing males(boys in the article) till they pretend to be asexual, White will begin hallucinating sexual context to keep ‘the game’ going:

    http://buzz.yahoo.com/buzzlog/92681?fp=1

    In short, second-degree Rapo is wrong, and all to common. There is nothing wrong with first-degree, provided the rejection is done appropriately.

    Like


  237. @al – suits are comfortable..? wha…? women have *way* more leeway in professional dress, up to and over the line of non-professional dress, without repercussion. t-shirts, short skirts, jeans, and.. yes, i’ve seen it .. flip flops in the office? so you are right to suggest a little more self-awareness in this area. women can get away with a lot more variety. sure it makes it easier to decide what to put on in the morning, and yes we do look better in suits that you do, but they’re not comfortable. as for bonding at the urinal? uh, no. not that i’ve ever experienced. chit chat maybe, professional advantage – no.

    @anonymous – you make some sense, and he did frame the issue in uncompromising terms, as is his way. the point was desexualization of the public space, the subtraction of romance, flirting, and attraction from everyday life, and the expectation that males in particular never display or convey any of these things. since sexual initiative is a male prerogative, this expectation tilts the social balance against men.

    all people are both sex subjects and sex objects. to make a possibly useful grammar analogy, it’s those transitive verbs you have to worry about. like, admire, lust for, desire, dislike, hate, love, etc. all that’s in the game of human emotional and sexual interaction, without which life would be pale and uninteresting.

    flipping the script around is clever, but ultimately not useful, because the sex roles are different and not equivalent. i’ve been hit on by gay guys before – it is an odd and ultimately useful experience for a guy, to understand how women experience things. but it really isn’t so hard to say thanks but no thanks, and it’s not unpleasant to realize that someone thinks you’re attractive enough to hit on you. back to the straight world, like helen gurley brown said, if a woman is not a sex object she’s in trouble. why do women doll/tart themselves up when they go out? makeup, short skirts, fuck-me pumps, etc. if it’s not to attract exactly that kind of attention? do you think Britney above is unaware of the effect she has on men, of every age?

    in the transitive verb idea above, men have to take that first action to express the intent of the verb, and women ought to be used to receiving it. if they’re not, they should be. if a guy goes over that line into being a stalker or an obsessive, then sure, he needs to be able to read the signals and pull back, go away. i don’t think he was advocating for unlimited rights for the creeps and stalkers of the world. the point was that a man should not self-censor himself to the extent that he can never express positive sexual emotions, thoughts or intentions, for the sake of a neutered public square.

    i think this post rambles a bit, but i’m going to click “submit” anyway. maybe others can improve my thoughts.

    Like


  238. on June 17, 2009 at 12:26 pm Comment_Whatever

    Removing the http: and back-slashes seems to defeat the moderation bot, so here goes:

    Many women enjoy playing Second-Degree Rapo in America, and I’ll admit it does get tiring.

    The bouncing young woman was probably playing Second-Degree Rapo. As White, she dresses sexily, bounces all over the place, then when Black indicates interest she says ‘buzz off’.

    http://www.ericberne.com/games/games_people_play_rapo.htm

    Now, First-Degree can be fun for both sides, IF White is a good sport about it. However, most women in America don’t seem able to do that anymore. First-Degree Rapo is indeed a good way for men to lose approach anxiety, provided that the woman is a good sport about it.

    If White is a very hard player, then after successfully abusing males(boys in the article) till they pretend to be asexual, White will begin hallucinating sexual context to keep ‘the game’ going:

    buzz.yahoo.com/buzzlog/92681?fp=1

    In short, second-degree Rapo is wrong, and all to common. There is nothing wrong with first-degree, provided the rejection is done appropriately.

    Like


  239. @ DT

    A woman can reject most of the unwanted advances she receives with a smile and a simple ”thank you, but I have a boyfriend” or ”thank you, but I’m not interested.” Granted she will have to step it up a notch for some guys, but since when did it become impossible for American women to actually be nice?

    THANK YOU! I was listening to some younger college girls on the bus the other day as they were bragged about the various ways they had rejected and humiliated men who approached them at the club the previous night. It just made me sad. I don’t think most men start out as a “creepy” staring betas; I think many of them are decent guys who’ve experienced cruel rejection so many times that although the lust for women still remains, there is now a palpable undercurrent of hostility and disrespect that makes women uneasy (Exhibit A: Arpagus.) I don’t recall ever experiencing sexual rejection but I was turned down for a job I wanted and even that affected my confidence levels for months. As a woman I can barely imagine the deleterious effects of repeated bitchy rejections on the male psyche. It’s like they’re being punished for being male and being attracted to women. If a man I have no interest in approaches me, I’m usually quite flattered and respond with a smile. It doesn’t mean I’m going to take him home and fuck him, but I don’t want to damage him for the next woman either. The “bitch shield” only goes up with extremely rude or aggressive men, and even then I try not to personally attack them. It’s just a basic level of compassion and decency that seems to be missing in many American women, and men are following suit. Sometimes I wonder if we’re all turning into monsters.

    And, not all women would be surprised at the weird sexual thoughts men are having all day. We have them too, we just cop to them less often because nice girls aren’t supposed to think about strangers that way.

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  240. flipping the script around is clever, but ultimately not useful, because the sex roles are different and not equivalent. i’ve been hit on by gay guys before – it is an odd and ultimately useful experience for a guy, to understand how women experience things. but it really isn’t so hard to say thanks but no thanks, and it’s not unpleasant to realize that someone thinks you’re attractive enough to hit on you. back to the straight world, like helen gurley brown said, if a woman is not a sex object she’s in trouble. why do women doll/tart themselves up when they go out? makeup, short skirts, fuck-me pumps, etc. if it’s not to attract exactly that kind of attention? do you think Britney above is unaware of the effect she has on men, of every age?

    I think it is very useful for a guy to get hit on by someone who he not only considers sexually unattractive, but who can also be a physical threat to him, if that person so chooses. Then just imagine that as soon as you stepped outside, big muscular gay guys went out of their way to leer at you, try to cop a feel when they thought you weren’t noticing, flirted with you, insisted on walking you to your car when you didn’t want them to, and talk in graphic terms about exactly what they wanted to do to you, and there was very little that you could do about it. Then I think that men get a better idea of what women go through everyday out in the public square. How friendly would you get, how polite would you continue to be if this happened constantly? Especially if some gay guys took your polite rejection as signal that they should continue hitting on you, and just try harder?

    But of course, women are attracted to men. Not every woman is attracted to all men (nor every man to every woman), but they do want to look as good as possible so that the men that they are attracted to, are also attracted to them. However, if you are very attractive, you will by definition get a lot more people who are attracted to you than you are to them. So yes, if you cast a wide net, you will net a lot of fish that you weren’t neccesarily wanting to get. Doesn’t exactly mean that you were angling for those fish though. The problem is that pretty much all fish are attracted to the same type of bait, even the ones which should be thrown back.

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  241. in the great majority of cases it shouldn’t bother her at all that men are “bothering” her.
    Why?

    maurice, I was sort of joking; I’ll work on refraining

    Like


  242. Games People Play was an eye-opener for me when I was in college.

    Rapo and “Sickbed” were the common ones I detected frequently.

    guy was an underrated genius

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  243. al explained:

    maurice, I was sort of joking; I’ll work on refraining

    humor doesn’t work on maury – not even ‘humour’ does

    his sense of humor is like LILGRL – slightly to the right of Stalin. In her case – Chairman Mao

    he won’t be able to detect even if this post is a jest.

    bet ya

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  244. @anonymous – first, noone is advocating for physical threats, violence or groping. if a guy is doing that he’s not an alpha but a bully or a creep. hope that was clear. second, your second para gets right at the attitudes of women towards beta men, the fish you say should be “thrown back”. they should have the right to talk to you, to express interest, to interact in a positive way. you can politely say thanks but no thanks if you’re not attracted. that was really his point- that even beta guys should be doing this all the time. in the same way that women habitually dress to make themselves as attractive as possible. that’s the other side of the same script, the complementary gender role. would you like it if someone decreed that only attrative women could dress nicely, show sex appeal, whereas ugly girls were told not to or strongly discouraged from doing so? under threat of actual prosecution in some cases, based on some ill-defined legal standard? (geez, talk abour your fashion police…) how fair would that be? but that’s the equivalent of what you’re saying, in some sense. undesirable people, however understood, should simply go away or never express their sexual natures.

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  245. on June 17, 2009 at 1:03 pm Days of Broken Arrows

    This discussion has grown beyond idiotic. It has now entered the realm of the mentally challenged. And Anonymous is the most challenged of all.

    The fact is: women go to insane lengths to seek male attention. The make-up industry, the plastic surgery industry and the shoe industry rake in BILLIONS OF DOLLARS so women can make themselves more attractive to men.

    Now, Anonymous is saying women don’t really want all that much attention. I say she’s either stupid or lying. Any woman who puts on makeup and a pair of heels wants some attention. I do know some women (mostly in the sciences) that stick to no makeup, tennis shoes and sweats and I will consent that these women generally don’t give a damn what men think.

    But in modern American society, women are screaming for attention. So don’t lie and claim they’re not.

    And by the way, I’ve been hit on by gay guys many many times. BFD. I said “no thanks!” and took it as a compliment someone found me attractive. The guys basically said “OK, bye!” At least gay guys are honest about what they want.

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  246. Maurice – exactly right.

    Like


  247. @al, firepower – ok, i was a little dense – apologies. i actually think i have a great sense of humor but it doesn’t come out at all in my writing style – which gravitates toward formal language, because of the way i write professionally every day. so no stick up my ass, believe it or not …! also, LILGRL is way lighter and funnier than me in her posts — so yeah, i got the joke there FP. 🙂

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  248. Some fucking idiot things have been said here.

    If I walking down the street and I say “hi” to a random adult female- am I a rapist?
    What If I tell her she is “cute and I would like to take her phone number down”- does that make me a rapist?

    When did it become illegal or immoral or impolite to talk to a complete stranger on the street?
    What is a chick going to run to a cop and tell them that I just complemented them and asked for a phone number- is the cop going to take me to jail for this?

    GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE!
    CHECK YOURSELF BEFORE YOU Wreck YOURELF!

    What the fuck- truly what the fuck!
    Some real garbage is being spewed here!

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  249. @DOBA – they want attention from the men they want but not any others. doesn’t work that way – beauty, the “bait” that attracts the “fish”, is a very undiscriminating attractor. so, they should just be polite in their rejections, just as men should always polite (if persistent) in their attentions. nothing new here, no mystery. he was just saying that’s it’s wrong for men to censor themselves.

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  250. I’ve always said this.

    It isn’t what was said- but who said it.

    Two different men use the same exact pick up line, and body language with the one women- with the handsome guy the girl considers it flirting, with the beta its considered harassment and creepy.

    Fuck that shit!
    Check yourself before you wreak yourself.

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  251. @ Anonymous –

    Sorry, but I call shenanigans. How does a man know if he’s a “fish that should be thrown back” (how insulting, by the way) unless he approaches a woman to find out? There’s a huge difference, which you apparently can’t distinguish, between simple male attention and sexual harassment. You’re offended by someone offering to walk you to your car? How is that equal to being groped or attacked? It’s basic chivalry, and most women don’t consider that remotely insulting.

    Here’s an experiment: go out in a greasy ponytail and no makeup with a baseball cap pulled low and big dark sunglasses on, a baggy stained sweater, sweatpants and flip flops – and you will be relatively FREE of unwanted male attention. Problem solved. This is a tactic celebrities use to avoid paparazzi, so surely it will work for your dazzlingly attractive self. Otherwise, don’t complain if the bait you’re chumming with actually draws some fish.

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  252. @kalliope- what u said. u go grrl. 🙂

    Like


  253. Oh, and another idea: just wait 10-20 years (depending on your age, you sound quite young) and all the horrible unwanted male attention will taper off and eventually dry up altogether. Problem solved.

    You may even miss it a little bit.

    Like


  254. The fact is: women go to insane lengths to seek male attention. The make-up industry, the plastic surgery industry and the shoe industry rake in BILLIONS OF DOLLARS so women can make themselves more attractive to men.

    Now, Anonymous is saying women don’t really want all that much attention. I say she’s either stupid or lying. Any woman who puts on makeup and a pair of heels wants some attention.

    Women want attention from certain men, but not every man. I think if American guys were better at the subtle flirtation, women might respond more in kind. But so many guys are just clueless about social cues, and try to push things beyond a women’s comfort or safety level that many women now just shut it down before it ever even gets started, if it is clear that aren’t interested anyway. Blame your fellow guys for that, accusing women of leading them on just because the woman agreed to talk with them, begging, literally begging a woman for relationship/sexual attention if she actually is nice to them, and stalking/harassing women. Many women would rather avoid the possibility of extremely uncomfortable interaction later but making it very clear that they don’t want to be bothered currently.

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  255. on June 17, 2009 at 1:53 pm Charles U. Farley

    Forgive me for interjecting, but:

    I think Tertullian was talking about god and his town planning, putting a sewer so close to a playground and all that.

    It was one of Tertullian’s contemporaries, Marcion of Sinope (85-160 AD)–heretic, excommunicant, and Gnostic. I believe the quote comes from “The Gospel of Marcion, but it’s been a while since my studies in college.

    “Can a fat, balding, middle aged schlub with a no-prestige provider job, a shrill wife and a brood of whiny children transform himself into an alpha through sheer force of will? Perhaps it’s an interesting thought experiment, but that’s not the way to bet.”

    Christ, I hope so.

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  256. Anony, just above:

    No wonder you are anonymous. That is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever seen posted here. And on here that is saying alot. By the way, all I’ve ever heard is that stalking rates are about the same for the sexes.

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  257. Sorry, but I call shenanigans. How does a man know if he’s a “fish that should be thrown back” (how insulting, by the way) unless he approaches a woman to find out? There’s a huge difference, which you apparently can’t distinguish, between simple male attention and sexual harassment. You’re offended by someone offering to walk you to your car? How is that equal to being groped or attacked? It’s basic chivalry, and most women don’t consider that remotely insulting.

    Like I said, many American guys are clueles about social cues. I have been on the Metro, wearing sunglasses, headphones, reading a book, and some guy still tries to approach me. If a woman is smiling at you, looking in your general direction, and has a open countenance, you can probably approach her, and while she may reject you, she will probably do so politely. However, if she is already giving off cues before you even approach, like closed off body language, accessories which make it hard to for her to interact with someone, and is not making eye contact with anyone, your reception is quite likely to be more than a bit frostier, as you are already ignoring her “DO NOT APPROACH” signals, and in a way, being quite rude yourself. This should be PUA 101, yet somehow is completely glossed over. But like I said, this does require a reading of facial cues and body language, a skill which many American guys woefully lack.

    There is nothing wrong with with offering to walk a woman to her car. There is something wrong with insisting on walking a woman to her car, when she has made it clear that she doesn’t want you to. One is polite, the other makes every woman’s danger instincts rise.

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  258. on June 17, 2009 at 2:19 pm David Alexander

    men who have so little respect for women that they become extreme in their opinions of and actions towards women, when they could have made good lovers or fathers in a different society.

    If you hold such extreme views, you were never going to become a good lover or father as you allow your judgement to be clouded by your emotions.

    in ways so deep it would probably frighten the hell out of you

    You’re right. The entire concept of such a woman being submissive eats away at the few brain cells left at this late hour of the night. I guess one could argue that it wraps around the notion of being submissive as inferior to being dominant, or the notion of submissive as meek, unreactive, and like a doormat. In contrast, an aggressive woman is a woman who goes out and enjoys sex, and wants sex unlike a submissive who just waits to be used.

    And yes, I hate girls who throw back the whole “what do you want to do” question back to me. In contrast, I loved how Wellesey Queen was the only one who knew what she wanted, and she always went for it.

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  259. on June 17, 2009 at 2:19 pm David Alexander

    The notion of a LTR being a friendship between two completely equal people is quite recent in history, and frankly to many, most probably, people emotionally unsatisfying.

    As an ideal, it seems great because it like having a lifelong friend that can satisfy your needs. The Dominant/Submission relationship doesn’t seem satisfying because you feel “responsible” for the submissive.

    This is mundane and mediocre, it places value on a person by what she could earn whereas there are much deeper and more valid measures of value.

    Earnings is a perfect valid choice for determining one’s value in our society given the power that high wealth and income have.

    Like


  260. @anonymous

    I am with you. I am a great believer in the ying/yang stuff. If women are bitchy, it is not because of the curse of Eve, but probably because men are beta. The arrow of causality goes in both directions. I personally prefer the largest number of beta men possible.

    But men self-select themselves a lot, much more than you think. It is quite common for guys to avoid the hottest women in the room, and game sub-par girls, by pure fear of rejection.

    then the subpar girls will be dumped aftersex, growing resentful of men, and the guys will get frustrated by not scoring anything truly hot.

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  261. would you like it if someone decreed that only attrative women could dress nicely, show sex appeal, whereas ugly girls were told not to or strongly discouraged from doing so?

    I fail to see the problem here since it pulls the ugly girls off the market…

    Honestly, I suspect that for women, continually dealing with beta males becomes bothersome, and after a while you develop a bitch shield because losers continually keep annoying you. Plus, I suspect that for many women, attraction by beta males with no attraction from alpha males can depress their self-esteem.

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  262. Dave Alex never ceases to bore me. Here we have a man (note the difference in spelling) who finds any reason or excuse to justify his failures accross the board in life. He knows NOTHING of love, yet he attempts to speak about it within the context of so-called gold diggers; he looks on D/s relationships w/disdain and pines away for his so-called “queen” who knew what she wanted-which, as it turns out, wasn’t him, even as a so-called “nondate” friend.

    Hmm.

    Dave, why do you persist here? You have gained no friends, you definitely haven’t gained any converts to your “cause”. What gives?

    O

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  263. Anonymous
    This is bullshit!

    Even if you are reading a book, with your ipod on, and sunglasses- and a dude that looks like brad pitt, G Clooney, or j depp- taps you on the shoulder and states- “hey i just read that book and it was great” are you going to tell him to fuck off?

    Get the fuck out of here!

    If a single handsome man sees a handsome woman in public that is his exact type (with no wedding ring) that catches his eye- it is his mission, his prerogative- his duty to flirt with her and to try and get her digits.

    It isn’t immoral or abnormal to talk to a stranger- no matter the context.

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  264. Even if you are reading a book, with your ipod on, and sunglasses- and a dude that looks like brad pitt, G Clooney, or j depp- taps you on the shoulder and states- “hey i just read that book and it was great” are you going to tell him to fuck off?

    Most dudes aren’t Brad Pitt or George Clooney, so calibrate accordingly.

    I don’t think it is immoral to talk to strangers, but it is rude if they are giving off signals that they don’t want to be talked to.

    How annoying is it when you are on a plane, and you are sitting next to the person who. won’t. shut. up? They try to talk to you while you are eating, reading that novel you were trying to tackle, when you are trying to zone out or take a nap. Imagine if that happened all day, every day when you are out and about trying to mind your own business. While I’m sure sometimes you would try to be polite about trying to get back to your own thoughts, and in other cases you might even find what a given person has to say very interesting and delightful, in other cases you would be quite short and impatient, especially if the other person was not picking up on your signals that you weren’t in the mood for talking.

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  265. Many women taking the crowded train in Tokyo opt for women-only carriages during the rush hour to avoid gropers.

    Men-only train cars sought in groping fears
    http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSTRE55G4VP20090617?feedType=RSS&feedName=oddlyEnoughNews

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  266. How annoying is it when you are on a plane, and you are sitting next to the person who. won’t. shut. up?

    So you have a right not to be annoyed, ever, and the entire world should be ordered so that you are never annoyed? Talk about narcissism…

    Like


  267. Some people here seem to be confused about the legal concepts of extortion and blackmail. They vary a lot between different jurisdictions, of course, but the following is generally true. If you request money or favors from someone under the threat of illegal violence, it’s extortion, whereas if you threaten to do something that’s otherwise perfectly legal (for example, revealing damaging but true information), it’s blackmail — and it’s still generally illegal, even though acting on the threats wouldn’t involve anything illegal in itself.

    This is sometimes called the “blackmail paradox,” and it’s a convoluted and controversial issue in law. See for example here for some interesting discussion. But in any case, there is ample traditional legal precedent for criminalizing attempts at obtaining money or services by threatening otherwise perfectly legal actions. That this principle is sometimes applied selectively at the urging of powerful ideological groups is another matter, of course.

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  268. So you have a right not to be annoyed, ever, and the entire world should be ordered so that you are never annoyed? Talk about narcissism…

    You don’t have the right not to be annoyed. But why should you forced to hide it if you are? Especially if the person isn’t picking up on your more subtle “leave me alone” signals? How is annoying someone honing your PUA skills?

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  269. It has already been said here many times that it your basic premise is false, and that it shouldn’t be “annoying” to you if men approach you and express romantic interest – even if you’re “not in the mood for it” at the moment.

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  270. I practice my “impolite flirt” with the Britneys of the world for several reasons.

    1) To teach the Art Of Game to my sons by example
    2) To keep my wife slightly off center (the rewards are predictable and immediate)
    3) To contribute to the universal balance of the Ying/Yang of Man/Woman
    4) The satisfaction of seeing surprise in the eyes of a young thing when she realizes she’s aroused by an interaction with someone she normally would consider invisible.
    5) I’m still breathing

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  271. You’re supposed to “act interested”

    Bzzzzzt, false assumption. I didn’t say there was any requirement to act “interested”, just that there is no reason to find the sales pitch “annoying”. Give the guy the brush-off and move on with your life as if nothing happened – because, in fact, nothing happened.

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  272. Bzzzzzt, false assumption. I didn’t say there was any requirement to act “interested”, just that there is no reason to find the sales pitch “annoying”. Give the guy the brush-off and move on with your life as if nothing happened – because, in fact, nothing happened.

    And if the salesman didn’t want to take no for an answer, and trailed after you still trying to entice you with sales pitches? If you had to constantly, every day run through a gauntlet of salesmen? If people were trying to sell you things while you were on the Metro, walking your dog, grabbing something to eat, not just when you were out shopping for a new vacuum? You wouldn’t find it the least bit annoying?

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  273. Some people here seem to be confused about the legal concepts of extortion and blackmail.

    Thanks for clearing that up, Vladimir. I don’t agree that blackmail should be a crime. And if even if you accept that obtaining sex through blackmail should be illegal, it would still just be blackmail, not rape, and far from deserving exactly the same sentencing as rape, which is the Norwegian legal reality. In any case sex is worth some years in prison for a man, so i knowing I will be convicted for rape will hardly deter me from using whatever resources I can to compel a woman to sleep with me.

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  274. @anonymous – point taken, people who can’t read basic social cues can be annoying. but that’s across every area of life and not limited to flirting. most people aren’t socially adept all the time. “PUA 101” as you called it teaches social skills as basic. reading body language, interest, eye signals, etc. is crucially important, and also how to get through IODs in a context-dependent way. not every guy who comes up to you on the subway is george clooney, but if a man knows how to pick up on your social cues and signals, even if you think they are 100% negative, you’d be receptive if he did it right.

    note as well the context of the original post: he wasn’t saying, hit on every girl reading a book on the subway with her head down, dammit, whether she likes it or not. he was saying the beta herb dude talking to Britney – *already in a conversation* – should have gamed her and not been afraid to display sexual interest. even if he has no intention of following through, even if he’s married, even – especially- if he likes her. see slim’s #5 above. if he knew how to do it right, in context, it would be fun and happy, not creepy.

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  275. Anonymous girl who apparently gets propositioned everywhere you go, do you approach the men you are interested in? If your answer is yes, then maybe you’d have a point. But assuming you don’t, what you really want is a man who ignores your bullshit and approaches you anyway. You’re just trying to screen out the men who don’t realize that women don’t know what they want and will react positively in most cases to a real man who shows them what they want.

    Also, Miss Anonymous, I doubt you are as accurate as you think in realizing the social cues you are giving off. I’ve been with some very beautiful women, and they are usually approached less than other girls I have known who were not that good looking but were constantly flirting with men. Very, very few women are constantly approached unless they are doing something to encourage it.

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  276. Anonymous girl who apparently gets propositioned everywhere you go, do you approach the men you are interested in?

    I do the “girl approach”, which is to look over at him, catch his gaze, hold it, and then look away. I repeat it once. If he is interested/free, he will come over at that point, or soon thereafter. If it is a guy I already know, then that usually isn’t necessary, but the ire is reserved for the “cold-call” type guys who can’t take an IOD at face value.

    note as well the context of the original post: he wasn’t saying, hit on every girl reading a book on the subway with her head down, dammit, whether she likes it or not. he was saying the beta herb dude talking to Britney – *already in a conversation* – should have gamed her and not been afraid to display sexual interest.

    I don’t see anything wrong with light banter/flirtation, which can be enjoyable for both parties, if done right. But it didn’t seem like that was what he was advocating, since at the end of the scenario, instead of a happy glow for both parties, the normal result of flirtation done right, you at the end have the girl fearful and afraid to engage the next guy she might casually know in conversation. What is the point of that? Sometimes flirtation is fun, and at other times you just want to order your fries, you know?

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  277. So, it’s nice to be approached “when done right” and “sometimes”. Mind reading, anyone?

    But see it from the bright side: perhaps the girl hesitating to engage the next guy is a good thing. Her attentions could be unwelcome, after all. You never know.

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  278. Anonymous,

    I was not referring to the original post. Several commentors had called you out by pointing out that men have the right to try to talk to anyone they desire and that you have the right to turn them down, but that there is no reason to do this impolitely unless he repeatedly takes no for an answer in a confined area where you cannot simply just walk away. You have repeatedly said how annoying it is that guys you aren’t attracted to cannot read your mind.

    Women are usually the most turned on by the approaches that they least expect. Many women say I hate to be approached in a certain situation, but if they are surprised by that, it will often turn them on. Finally, it upsets the men on here that you have no empathy for them yet you expect them to have empathy for you. You apparently have no problem getting the men you want, so take it for granted. You have no idea what it is like to have women expect you to take them seriously but rarely act consistently with what comes out of their mouths. I have learned to see through a women’s BS and distinguish it from her sincerety, but most men have no clue, and have no easy way to learn, since mainstream society ignores the reality that women are irrational when it comes to their dealings with men.

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  279. I was not referring to the original post. Several commentors had called you out by pointing out that men have the right to try to talk to anyone they desire and that you have the right to turn them down, but that there is no reason to do this impolitely unless he repeatedly takes no for an answer in a confined area where you cannot simply just walk away.

    Men have the right to talk to anyone they want. But coming from a woman’s perspective, I think most women in the beginning, while young, try to be polite. And are shocked when a guy doesn’t take no for an answer, or sees her politeness as a sign of encouragement to keep engaging, or turns around and blames her for wasting his time, or leading him on, when all she was doing was trying to be polite.

    So then a girl will then retreat, and recalibrate herself. Often by being a lot more firm, brusque, and cold, so there is absolutely no question about what is going on. Then a guy gets his feelings hurt, and while he may in fact be perfectly harmless, a girl has no way of knowing which rejected guy is going to be nice about things, and which aren’t. So better to treat them, for the most part, the same way.

    I don’t think insulting someone is ever the way to go, guy or girl. But coolness/coldness, and making things very clear from the beginning often is the best way to keep these interactions from going on too long, and wasting both of our time. That way the girl can go about her business, and the guy can try to approach some girl who is receptive to his overtures. The “nice girl” at work is usually swamped with guys she doesn’t want, because she never learned to turn a guy down firmly, and many guys want to see any, absolutely any gesture of politeness from a decent looking girl as an IOI.

    Like


  280. on June 17, 2009 at 7:46 pm Willard Libby

    I don’t know where to put this video link so I’ll put it here.

    Listen to these two guys commiserating.

    I think it might be whiskey and David Alexander, not sure.

    Like


  281. Part of the problem is that all girls do not act like you and have the same expectations you do. Some girls do lead men on and then claim they don’t, just as some men claim girls lead them on when they are not. At some point in your life Miss Anonymous, you won’t get attention from any men, let alone desirable ones, and you will wish you were “annoyed” like back in the old days. Further more, I’ve been around many attractive women in my life, my sister in addition to many girlfriends. They are very rarely approached in public. Maybe men are just intimidated by me, but that can’t be the entire reason because I don’t stay right next to them at all times while in public. On the other hand, I’ve known women who I and most men would objectively classify as last attractive be hit on constantly because she was always putting out signs of being available.

    Like


  282. In all likelihood, the biggest problem the guy had was that he was with his daughter.

    My daughter, although not even three, would do her best to sabotage anything but the most casual of conversations I might have with a woman. I can imagine her making noise, whining to be picked up, clutching my leg, or even sinking her teeth into the calf of a voluptuous young woman who had stolen my attention if nothing else worked. Who knows what she might do when older?

    My four-year-old son, on the other hand, would probably flirt with her.

    Funny how these gender roles show up so early.

    Like


  283. No, a creepy man is one who feels free to hit on you when you’re clearly out to just get some things done and don’t want to be bothered.

    As opposed to the non-creepy guys who drive drunk, slap you around, and leave you with a baby to raise all by yourself?

    I see why whiskey loves you.

    News flash: you are not entitled to have the sea of people on this Earth part around you whenever you want to be left alone. Get it? It’s America. A man has the right to approach you, say hi, flirt, ask for your number, etc. If you’re not interested, POLITELY say so. If they push past that or are exceptionally crude out of the gate, then you can let out the inner bitch we all know and love to hate on this board. But a man politely showing interest in you is not creepy, and does not deserve your scorn no matter who lied to you and told you that you’re a special princess. You’re not.

    Try reading kalliope’s post at 12:27 pm to see how a decent woman perceives the world.

    Like


  284. As a woman I can barely imagine the deleterious effects of repeated bitchy rejections on the male psyche. It’s like they’re being punished for being male and being attracted to women. If a man I have no interest in approaches me, I’m usually quite flattered and respond with a smile. It doesn’t mean I’m going to take him home and fuck him, but I don’t want to damage him for the next woman either.

    On behalf of men every where kalliope, thank you. I wish more women were like you.

    Rejection doesn’t bother me nearly as much now that I’ve spent some time studying game. But I can recall rejections that really hurt. They never came from nice, considerate women. Even at my most beta I could handle a smile and a “thank you, but I’m not interested” with ease.

    One of the most useful things game taught me was that the man should actively test and qualify the woman. If I approach a girl and get a bitchy rejection that was intended to hurt me, then she has just proven to me that she wasn’t worth the time it took to approach her. She has disqualified herself, shown herself to be a bitch, and I don’t want that. Why, then, should her rejection bother me? I’m grateful that she showed her colors early and saved me any further investment.

    But a man has to learn that. The average guy can be easily and painfully hurt by a harsh rejection. Too many modern girls turn this into a game. Then they wonder why they get creepy stares from betas who want to approach them but are afraid of being hurt.

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  285. But like I said, this does require a reading of facial cues and body language, a skill which many American guys woefully lack.

    While there’s plenty to argue with in the posts by Anonymous, I can see her point in this particular post. Women aren’t as direct and verbal as men. They give off subtle body language cues which one can read to gauge level of openness or interest. Learning those cues is a tremendous benefit for both sexes. Mystery does discuss indicators of interest and disinterest in his book, and he does give some weight to reading them properly and taking appropriate action (calibration).

    Something to remember…

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  286. Not to mention 9 of the 10 vacuums are the brand she’d never buy anyhow.

    Not every vacuum comes with deluxe DUI and an owner pushing motor.

    Imagine a woman’s day if she were to actually engage all the men who should interest on the street in “polite conversation”. Holy shit.

    The horror. Why, you might lose 2 whole minutes a month out of your busy schedule.

    Like


  287. Willard – haven’t you been told that white knighting will NOT get you laid?

    Especially on an Internet board…

    Like


  288. on June 18, 2009 at 10:36 am Conscientious observer

    25% of South African Men Admit to Rape

    “Of those surveyed, 28% said they had raped a woman or girl, and 3% said they had raped a man or boy. Almost half who said they had carried out a rape admitted they had done so more than once, with 73% saying they had carried out their first assault before the age of 20.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/17/south-africa-rape-survey

    Like


  289. Yes, Willard, keep your eyes rigidly fixed on her face while talking about inane platitudes like a good little beta douche.

    Like


  290. Willard,

    Disconnection is NOT the way to go, cultivating a safe (and hopefully non-bitter) openness to connection IS. Self-isolation of the kind you advocate yields a downward spiral that creates the Ted Bundys of this world. My hypothetical sister is a hell of a lot safer being approached by a well-adjusted man who can take “No” for an answer because he approaches tons of women and gets an occasional “Yes” rather than “It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again.”

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  291. Conscientious observer revealed:

    25% of South African Men Admit to Rape

    goddamn, then they should play for the NFL !

    Like


  292. on June 18, 2009 at 1:19 pm Willard Libby

    DT – Willard – haven’t you been told that white knighting will NOT get you laid?

    Especially on an Internet board…

    I’m not white knighting in the least. I say what I say because I think it is the truth or the preferable option.

    Tarl – Yes, Willard, keep your eyes rigidly fixed on her face while talking about inane platitudes like a good little beta douche.

    I never recommended that.

    Eurosabra – Willard, Disconnection is NOT the way to go, cultivating a safe (and hopefully non-bitter) openness to connection IS. Self-isolation of the kind you advocate yields a downward spiral that creates the Ted Bundys of this world.

    I don’t advocate self isolation leading to Ted Bundy. I’m saying I don’t favor Game if it is an extension of the beta males desperate need for female approval and acceptance.

    I don’t recommend unmanly men learn better techniques to achieve their unmanly, beta goals.

    The problem is the male need for female acceptance and approval regardless of the technique used to achieve that goal. The herbs, and PC beta/SWPL wimps have their technique, the more obnoxious guys have theirs.

    I have contempt for that need.

    Obsidian – Willard, Of course the problem with your comments, is that you give no actual constructive suggestions, or advice, as to *what* the socalled Betas actually *do*.

    I gave my suggestion very clearly – “Let them go. Be cold, distant, fatalistic and aloof. ”

    I’m not recommending social isolation. I’m recommending they stop running around like little boys hunting for a sexual mommy to comfort them…

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  293. The problem with “not chasing approval” that isn’t forthcoming is that it fades into a depressing anomie of alienated, late 20th-century capitalism. Speaking to men who already put forth maximal effort for minimal return, and who are seeking to improve their results, and telling them to abandon the quest is futile when confronting such extremely powerful drives.

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  294. OK Willard, let’s try this again…

    I think they both have made some good points about the stress on women from unwanted male attention and the fear of possible aggression.

    If the poor little princesses can’t handle the “stress” of being out in the world were some big bad stranger might dare smile and say “hi”, then they need psychological help. And until they get it, stay out of the work force and off the streets. Stay home watching Oprah. Seriously.

    It’s entitlement princess drama like this that causes one of my female friends, a manager, to respond with “I HATE working with women” whenever I ask her how her day at work went.

    Many men on here feel frustrated and bitter about the lack of female interest in them and the perceived lack of female diplomacy about it.

    So a woman is never a bitch, she’s just stressed and fearful? And a man is never stressed or hurt, he’s just a bitter loser?

    And you still believe that girls are made of sugar and spice and everything nice, right? (And Santa, did he visit you this last Christmas?)

    The girls on the bus in kalliope’s post who thought it was funny to be bitchy, were they laughing out of stress or fear?

    I suppose if a girl approached a man and he shot her down in the most painful way possible, then laughed about it with his buddies the next day, you would jump to her defense, wouldn’t you, you high heel licking beta bitch slave?

    I wouldn’t want to be a woman for a whole host of reasons

    And yet you’ve had your nuts cut off?

    not the least of which is that they have to deal with relentless, unwanted sexual attention from men and in worst case scenarios actual sexual assault.

    Flirting = sexual assault is one of the feminist lies which has poisoned relations between the sexes and made American women so difficult to tolerate. But it’s nice to see you got an A+ in your workplace sexual harassment / ball cutting course.

    And it’s not just beautiful or younger women. Unattractive women are also a target because they can be seen by some men as desperate and easy.

    Do you realize how sexist your comments are towards your own sex?

    It’s beta to subordinate yourself to a woman, no doubt.

    You’re beyond mere subordination. You’re bent over, holding your ass cheeks open, begging a line of feminists to gang rape you with strap ons.

    But it’s also beta to be bitter about the fact that women want to live their own self interested lives without having to be on constant guard against the sexual attention and possible aggression from men toward whom they have no interest.

    Makeup, short skirts, tight shirts, heels, push up bras, boob jobs…how dare men display normal male sexual attention! What are they thinking?!

    BTW, treating men as “aggressors” and “creeps” for their normal sexual feelings and behavior is violence towards men and should itself be classified as a form of actionable sexual harassment. As someone pointed out earlier, what if we were to pass strict laws on how women can dress and present themselves? What if heels and a knee length skirt were deemed sexual harassment against men in the workplace? Could you imagine the tears that would flow if you started calling women who dressed to appear attractive and pretty “aggressive creeps” for “targeting men” with their “unwanted sexual attention”?

    This is a valid analogy. Male sexual attraction is strongly visual. Women know this and spend their lives dressing to it. It’s the female equivalent of the male approach. The polar opposite of America is Saudi Arabia where a woman dressed attractively is considered the aggressor who is molesting men. Maybe we need a little Saudi Arabia in America to wake the sisterhood up and balance things out a bit for men.

    And remember that if these women were your sisters you wouldn’t want most guys bugging them either.

    As someone else said, I would rather have a well adjusted, sweet sister who could handle an approach from a man and turn him down gently than a sister who is a caustic bitch, contributing her small part to some loser-turned-psycho in this world.

    Curious: did your parents ever have a son?

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  295. Willard, there is a perfect description of you in his latest post: lickspittle SWPL beta enablers

    Like


  296. on June 18, 2009 at 3:43 pm Willard Libby

    DT, you’re a funny guy but your response to me didn’t accurately represent who I am or what I said.

    Curious: did your parents ever have a son?

    They didn’t just “have” a son. They were given one as a gift.

    Willard, there is a perfect description of you in his latest post: lickspittle SWPL beta enablers.

    I’m a right wing, nature loving, people despising loner.

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  297. I’m a right wing, nature loving, people despising loner

    Hitler?

    Seriously, Willard. How many jokes/sports blogs do you read? On a friday night, how many different guys can you call to go out?

    Like


  298. on June 18, 2009 at 6:12 pm Willard Libby

    gig – Seriously, Willard. How many jokes/sports blogs do you read?

    The only sports site I go to is eastsideboxing for it’s message board.

    On a friday night, how many different guys can you call to go out?,/i>

    I’ve never gone out with any guys on a Friday night or any night. I don’t hang out with guys. I don’t drink. I’m not into male bonding at all.

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  299. on June 18, 2009 at 6:12 pm Willard Libby

    gig – Seriously, Willard. How many jokes/sports blogs do you read?

    The only sports site I go to is eastsideboxing for it’s message board.

    On a friday night, how many different guys can you call to go out?

    I’ve never gone out with any guys on a Friday night or any night. I don’t hang out with guys. I don’t drink. I’m not into male bonding at all..

    Like


  300. Willard, growing up did you have trouble fitting in anywhere, getting a sense of belonging in any clique of social value?

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  301. Willard, there is a perfect description of you in his latest post: lickspittle SWPL beta enablers

    some of you guys here just call anything you don’t agree with reflexively SWPL. have you seen the politically incorrect things willard says about black people? nothing swpl about him. lots of right-wingers “white knight” women too. devlin talks about that at length.

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  302. Reading this, I am trying to figure out why so many women are against prostitution. Those pesky betas can just go buy sex, and save everybody some bother.

    We have to conclude that women want beta males to approach them, or want the option to approach a beta, when the female wants something from the beta. Women use their attractiveness to men to gain favors from men is many situations, not just to pick up men for sex.

    After a beta has some experience with a pro, the allures of an average attractive women might seem a lot less valuable. I went to “amateur night” at a local gentlemens club recently. Some of the dancers were just stunningly gorgeous. After seeing those gals, the average girl needn’t worry about me bothering her. They can also give up hope of using their allures to get me to do something for them. They no longer register as any special at all, based upon their physical attractiveness. This is where personality comes in.

    When you see the situation in this light, the flaunting behavior of women, coupled with their harsh rejections, is really very poor form.

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  303. Joel, you answered your own question. Women wouldn’t be able to price themselves so highly and get so many favors if men had easy access to cheap substitutes like prostitution. So women oppose this substitute and often succeed in getting it banned.

    I guess all this unwanted attention is worth it for them so they can command a higher price on their sexuality and get favors. That is the conclusion we have to draw, because, as Baumeister has shown, it is women who are responsible for cultural suppression of female sexuality. I don’t feel sorry for women getting harassed and assaulted as long as they deny us an alternative outlet such as prostitution.

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  304. After a beta has some experience with a pro, the allures of an average attractive women might seem a lot less valuable.

    The problem is that you’re presuming that beta males would be able to afford the best looking prostitutes. For all intents and purposes, outside of trafficked women, most betas will end up with women who are no better looking or somewhat less attractive than what they’d secure in real life. The good looking prostitutes will always remain a province of the rich.

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  305. on June 18, 2009 at 8:39 pm Marcus Aureliette

    arpagus:
    I wish these horny aggressive fat chicks existed, but sadly they don’t.

    Every office I’ve ever worked in has been abundantly stocked with them. It’s not unreasonable to assume that the bars in any reasonably-sized US city are, as well.

    Maybe they’re avoiding you because they can sense how much you loathe and resent them?

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  306. Marcus Aureliette:

    Maybe they’re avoiding you because they can sense how much you loathe and resent them?

    I don’t loathe or resent fat chicks or any chicks except feminists and even feminists I want to fuck. I love BBW.

    There is no such thing as unwanted female sexual attention. Sometimes we pretend there is, and that must be what you have observed — it is called “stealing her frame” or “flipping the script” and is entirely a cynical ploy to trick the girl into bed, not serious. You should know that by now but I guess it just shows that women really don’t understand game even when it is laid out in front of them.

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  307. The problem is that you’re presuming that beta males would be able to afford the best looking prostitutes.

    It is becoming clear to me that Obsidian and others are right that you are truly a hopeless case, David Alexander. Even if you could get just about anyone, they would never be good enough. That is not normal. It is normal for girls to think like that, but not for men. I guess you are proof that porn can really be destructive in some extreme cases.

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  308. Even if you could get just about anyone, they would never be good enough. That is not normal. It is normal for girls to think like that, but not for men.

    Given the amount of money one is spending, it doesn’t make much sense to spend a sizable chunk of one’s paycheck on sex with a woman who doesn’t meet one’s sexual needs. While I must admit to having little incentive to have sex with a prostitute since she really isn’t attracted to me and is only having sex with me for my money, if I’m going to spend $200/hrs on sex, she better look better than the girls I can get in real life. Otherwise, it’s pointless, and it makes learning game a bit more sensible for the average male.

    And maybe men should hold out for better. Exercise your dignity instead of being weak and frail and by having sex with a woman just because she said yes.

    I guess you are proof that porn can really be destructive in some extreme cases.

    This coming from a pro-rapist, pro-wife beating, pro-sexual harassment cro-magnon who has no game. I’d much rather have my porn with highly physically sexualized women, than a woman who is incapable of arousing me, and I’d defend my female friends, cousins, and nieces from bitter spiteful men like you. Trust me, just because you can’t laid doesn’t give you an excuse to be a prick.

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  309. if I’m going to spend $200/hrs on sex, she better look better than the girls I can get in real life

    If you can get girls like that in real life, then you must be doing very well with with women indeed. Why are you even here? Evidently impotence is your problem or you are gay or asexual.

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  310. on June 19, 2009 at 1:54 am Marcus Aureliette

    I don’t loathe or resent fat chicks or any chicks except feminists and even feminists I want to fuck. I love BBW.

    No, I meant that you come across as deeply loathing and resenting women in general. If you convey even a fraction of that IRL, it’s bound to be alienating. Loving to fuck them doesn’t mean you don’t hate them.

    There is no such thing as unwanted female sexual attention.

    Speaking as a female who does the asking out as often than not and been LJBFed a LOT, I’m afraid the data does not back you up on that one.

    Even if you could get just about anyone, they would never be good enough. That is not normal. It is normal for girls to think like that, but not for men.

    Wow, do you even know any men?!

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  311. If you convey even a fraction of that [loathing and resentment] IRL, it’s bound to be alienating.

    You confuse chicken and egg here. I was rejected first and then I started loathing. If the mythical female sexual desire you claim ever existed, I wouldn’t be here.

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  312. If you can get girls like that in real life, then you must be doing very well with with women indeed. Why are you even here? Evidently impotence is your problem or you are gay or asexual.

    I assure you, the girls who are in the affordable range ($100-$200 per hour) are basically average looking girls who directly offer sex for money. You could get somebody who is a 7 or 8, but at that point, you’d be spending at minimum, $500 an hour which is out of the range for regular use for the average male. I’d much rather direct that money toward my hobbies or my friends and family, and relieve myself sexually via masturbation aided with porn.

    Now, if you feel like paying $150 an hour to have sex with an ugly girl because you’re desperate, be my guest…

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  313. David Alexander lectured us to:

    …Exercise your dignity instead of being weak and frail and by having sex with a woman just because she said yes.

    Of course we could say the same about porn. Exercise your dignity instead of being weak and frail and avoid porn. Porn is the ultimate “yes” woman. She always says “yes” and never says “no.”

    A man that is addicted to porn has no more dignity than the man who bangs a chick just because she is available.

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  314. Marcus Aureliette said:

    Speaking as a female who does the asking out as often than not and been LJBFed a LOT, I’m afraid the data does not back you up on that one.

    Really?

    Are you reasonably attractive? Non-crazy?

    Are you direct or indirect?

    Maybe we can dissect your game.

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  315. @Default

    Default said to Marcus “Are you reasonably attractive? Non-crazy?

    Are you direct or indirect?

    Maybe we can dissect your game.”

    Aoefe waves her arm in the air and excitedly shouts “pick me , pick me!!” She asks “Can I try?” (she imagines he says yes).

    Reasonably attractive? – check

    Non-crazy? – check = totally crazy in a good way

    Direct or Indirect? – check my attempt out:

    *aoefe looks directly at Mr D. Faul Tee, bats her green eyes a couple of times before looking down shyly

    “uuuuhmm” she starts
    “want to…” she stammers
    “@#$$ me?” she rushes then she looks up at him expectantly waiting for his answer.

    “So wanna??” *cute grin

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  316. aoefe runs some shy girl game:

    Default turns, smiles, and begins to speak.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    [cut to ad break]

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  317. [back from break]
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Default turns, smiles, and begins to speak.

    Default: “Yes, I would like that.”

    aoefe: “…get me some copy paper. This machine has run out”

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  318. @Default

    “…get me some copy paper. This machine has run out”

    Yes Sir! heh

    Like


  319. aoefe Marcus Aureliette

    Any woman making a direct approach to a man gets points for moxie. He may be a bit surprised but will likely be intrigued.

    Like


  320. @aeofe, default – you need another e-room! although the e-voyeurism is definitely fun.

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  321. aoefe

    In the “script” you were asking me to get the copy paper. In other words it was kind of a bait-and-switch, the classic crossed-connection of comedy farces.

    So it seems my humor and game are failing. But I am glad to see you are willing to obey. 😉

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  322. on June 19, 2009 at 11:21 am Marcus Aureliette

    arpagus:
    You confuse chicken and egg here. I was rejected first and then I started loathing. If the mythical female sexual desire you claim ever existed, I wouldn’t be here.

    I don’t care how it started. You can loathe the woman who rejected you, but you can’t punish-in-advance the rest of womankind for what she did and expect to get anywhere with that approach. I said only that if you’re transmitting that loathing, it’s very likely being picked up on, which is never in a million years going to work to your benefit.

    You really think that compares to the unwanted sexal attention from the opposite sex that women get?

    If it’s offered and declined, it’s unwanted, regardless of who’s doing the offering. And the notion that all women are constantly being inundated with offers is a complete myth, no matter how many times it’s repeated.

    default:
    Are you reasonably attractive? Non-crazy?

    I am definitely non-crazy, and not so much ugly as plain, or nondescript.

    Are you direct or indirect?

    In the past I’ve erred on the too-indirect side. I won’t be making that mistake again.

    Maybe we can dissect your game.

    That’s OK, you needn’t! I was not complaining, only trying to point out that Women, as a group, do not get the free ride posters like arpagus seem to think they do, and that being a good, if independent, girl is no guarantee that a guy won’t still take you for granted and decide the risk of shooting out of his league is more important than “settling” for a relationship with a nice-&-sane-but-not-hot girl.

    Sometimes people are just jerks, and not everything is down to sex. Neither gender has the corner on the jerk market. If you tangle with a bad one then you just have to suck it up and move on, not punish all men or all women because of one bad apple.

    I have never been one of those women constantly badgered by men, but the trade-off is that I have rather a lot of genuine friends and an almost entirely drama-free life. I definitely feel I have the better side of the bargain, although I’m sure there are many women who wouldn’t be of that opinion. I am solitary by nature, which I realise is somewhat unusual.

    Understand that I’m not talking about picking men up for casual sex, which I don’t engage in. For all that guys here hold up The Good Old Days as an ideal, most are not even remotely interested in the delaying of gratification that actually involves.

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  323. @Marcus

    “For all that guys here hold up The Good Old Days as an ideal, most are not even remotely interested in the delaying of gratification that actually involves.”

    Very, very true. Even if they want an LTR, they are not really interested in holding off – so it’s a tricky catch 22/22. You’re damned if you do (sleep with them) and damned if you don’t.

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  324. @aeofe, marcus – first of all, it’s not like a switch went off in 1967 and people started having pre-marital sex for the first time. there was a lot of fooling around going on previously. see the excerpt from the book on sexual mores during WWII that Ovid posted here a few weeks ago. Very, very illuminating.

    second, your point is correct – if a woman gives it up too soon, a guy loses respect, but if she waits too long, he loses interest. the trick is to find the right balance, and it’s very dependent on context and the chemistry between the pair. it’s OK to wait, of course, but not OK to be toyed with or played head games with (ex. The Rules – tool of the devil.). If you see the difference.

    also – catch 22/22? isn’t that redundant? there’s only supposed to be one 22 😉

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  325. on June 19, 2009 at 2:38 pm Marcus Aureliette

    pompadus:

    also – catch 22/22? isn’t that redundant? there’s only supposed to be one 22

    Isn’t that when your ability to see the conundrum is better than average? ;D

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  326. either that, or you’ve got double vision and need glasses. who ever heard of a catch-44?

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  327. Marcus Aureliette

    “and not so much ugly as plain, or nondescript.”
    That probably describes the majority of men (both in terms of looks and confidence/alphaness).

    On dissecting your game you said:
    “That’s OK, you needn’t!”

    While there was an element of humor to my suggestion it could be interesting. For instance:
    Did you get approach anxiety (nerves)?
    Did you plan it (have lines prepared etc.)?
    Did you use humor?
    etc., etc.

    On the direct approach:
    I have just the thing for you

    Good luck and look forward to the field report. 🙂

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  328. Of course we could say the same about porn.

    Porn is merely a sexual aid that one uses to relieve stress and sexual tension. It’s great for removing those annoying urges to have sex with somebody, and it’s much cheaper and safer than using prostitutes.

    Use of porn is still less degrading than having sex with third rate women, especially since with proper technique, one can achieve superior orgasms from masturbation. Hell, your erection may be sustained for the entire length of your masturbatory session, while one has to force himself and dream of better looking women while having sex with the ugly girl…

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  329. Notice that Elliot Spitzer was driven out of office for using a prostitute but Bill Clinton stayed President even though he was a flagrant sexual predator, just like Spitzer’s replacement.

    Women are OK with alpha males abusing their power, but woe to the beta male who pays for sex like a gentleman. Now, he is a threat. The Clintons of the world are an opportunity.

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  330. @maurice

    “also – catch 22/22? isn’t that redundant? there’s only supposed to be one 22 ”

    Crap! I must have been thinking of 20/20…brain fart. Or it was a brilliant double talk. heh

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  331. Diminutive female Marcus Aurelius wrote:

    If it’s offered and declined, it’s unwanted, regardless of who’s doing the offering.

    Sex is a female resource. If women do the offering, which they usually don’t, then it doesn’t matter if it is unwanted because the attention is inherently valuable and the man is just lucky. You should have enough gender-realism in you after hanging out here not to kid yourself and you certainly won’t fool anyone else.

    You your allegedly not so attractive self admit you don’t pick up men for casual sex and it would be exceedingly difficult for any man to sleep with you. So where are these sexually aggressive unwanted females, eh? Nowhere.

    David Alexander:

    I’d much rather direct that money toward my hobbies or my friends and family, and relieve myself sexually via masturbation aided with porn.

    You are the best and perhaps only evidence why porn should be banned or at least have a warning. Surgeon general’s warning: Viewing porn may ruin your love life and jeopardize your genetic future. Throw a picture of David Alexander on there and the porn industry would go out of business because nobody wants to be like him.

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  332. You are the best and perhaps only evidence why porn should be banned or at least have a warning.

    Somebody’s jealous that he’s too stupid to figure out how to secure his own orgasm without a woman or going gay.

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  333. Thinking sex and love is about “securing orgasms” is infantile. I can and do have an orgasm anytime I want but what I really need is the intimacy only a real woman can provide. Your being satisfied with just the orgasm is what makes you so bizarre, combined with your lack of desire for any woman you can actually have.

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  334. on June 20, 2009 at 12:38 am Willard Libby

    joel – Notice that Elliot Spitzer was driven out of office for using a prostitute but Bill Clinton stayed President even though he was a flagrant sexual predator, just like Spitzer’s replacement.

    Spitzer repeatedly engaged in criminal activity. Including interstate criminality. He could have had an adulterous relationship with any number of women.

    He chose to engage in criminal not merely unethical activity.

    Women are OK with alpha males abusing their power, but woe to the beta male who pays for sex like a gentleman.

    If he was a gentleman he wouldn’t have paid some young woman for sex. He would be ashamed of himself and disappointed that this young woman chose to involve herself in prostitution. He is old enough to be her father.

    And if he were more of a man he wouldn’t debase himself by paying to have sex with some piece of trash. Which is what all prostitutes are without exception.

    Now, he is a threat. The Clintons of the world are an opportunity.

    Both are dirtbags.

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  335. intimacy

    That’s merely a concept full of bunk created by beta men to explain away their interest in their ugly women. Alpha males have no need for such a silly concept since they’re aware that sex is merely a form of exercise with an enjoyable orgasm at the end, and having access to beautiful women provides for superior orgasms as stated by our blog host in an earlier post…

    combined with your lack of desire for any woman you can actually have

    Most of the women that desire me lack the sexualized physical appearance that is capable of arousing me. If you don’t look and dress like a porn star, you’re not sexual to me…

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  336. If that is what you want to believe, then so be it, but I really don’t think it is a recipe for a happy life.

    I would suggest throwing away your porn and using some chemical enhancer to start getting into your “ugly” women. You will probably come to realize that they are not as ugly as you think. The post was PUA hyperbole. Normal men are reasonably happy with the women they can get and only if literally no women are available would we resort to your defeatist lifestyle.

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  337. I would suggest throwing away your porn and using some chemical enhancer to start getting into your “ugly” women.

    Yes, as I want to be associated with women who may embarass me in public.

    Normal men are reasonably happy with the women they can get

    That’s delusional shit beta males tell themselves so they can sleep at night next to their unsatisfying wives. I fail to see how one can’t be jealous of the alphas, the hot women that can get, and the superior sex that they’re having. Sadly, too many men are incapable of preserving their dignity, and they choose to have sex with women who are subpar, publicly embarrassing, and sexually unattractive all due to their inability to control their need to dumb sperm in a vagina. Either get a hot girl or channel your desires into porn. Having sex with a non-hot girl is just a reminder of your failures in life and your lack of alpha status.

    And yes, I have male friends who make fun of their other friends choices in girlfriends and sex partners.

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  338. on June 20, 2009 at 2:15 am Marcus Aureliette

    Sex is a female resource. If women do the offering, which they usually don’t, then it doesn’t matter if it is unwanted because the attention is inherently valuable and the man is just lucky.

    Excepting, of course, when the man doesn’t want it, because he thinks he can do better. And sex is not something that women carry around with them. We don’t have it secreted away somewhere on our persons, you know.

    And now you’re changing the goalposts yet again. You said women never offer. But sometimes they do. Then women’s overtures are never unwanted. But sometimes they are. If a woman makes the offer and is rejected, that is unwanted, and she ends up just as alone as you are. And yet you think that your feelings of rejection or loneliness are somehow more valid than hers?

    You should have enough gender-realism in you after hanging out here not to kid yourself and you certainly won’t fool anyone else.

    I have enough first-hand experience of the matter to know that your brand of gender-realism is a guideline, at best, and never, ever the bible you seem to want to make it.

    You your allegedly not so attractive self admit you don’t pick up men for casual sex and it would be exceedingly difficult for any man to sleep with you. So where are these sexually aggressive unwanted females, eh? Nowhere.

    What, because I don’t sleep around, that means there are no sexually aggressive unwanted females on the planet? Dude, have you even read any of the war stories on here? You might want to trawl any well-populated bar at last call; according to many posts that’s when the desperate women come out of the woodwork. Maybe some of them are game for a hate-fuck.

    You saying they’re not there doesn’t will them out of existence, it just gives you an excuse to go on loathing them from a distance without having to make any effort.

    You have a lot of nerve giving DA a hard time. Not that he’s not boxed in by his own set of self-made delusions, but at least he’s usually fairly gracious about it.

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  339. [email protected]

    “intimacy

    That’s merely a concept full of bunk created by beta men to explain away their interest in their ugly women. Alpha males have no need for such a silly concept since they’re aware that sex is merely a form of exercise..

    I call the Bullshit flag.

    And it’s reductionist as well.

    Sex is about a lot more than pleasurable exercise and a physical release. There is such a thing as emotional and physical intimacy, most sex is far better with it, though there is something to be said for the old fashioned “grudge fuck”.

    That said, nothing beats sex with emotional intimacy, as rare as it may be at times.

    It’s basically something you have to experience, if you haven’t then perhaps you can be forgiven in denying its existence, but it exists. The physical reaction to stimulus is one thing, the emotional reaction is another. Reducing sex to simply physical exercise is a defense mechanism to protect hearts from being exposed to the risk of emotional loss.

    It’s a loosing proposition. But to each his own.

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  340. *Takes off Kangol to Kamal*

    Excellently put. Well said, sir. Dave Alex wouldn’t know intimacy if it slapped the shit outta him at High Noon.

    Intimacy is the fucking BOMB. It makes the difference between mere “exercise” and something special.

    O

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  341. on June 21, 2009 at 1:13 am Willard Libby

    Marcus Aureliette – You said women never offer. But sometimes they do. Then women’s overtures are never unwanted. But sometimes they are. If a woman makes the offer and is rejected, that is unwanted, and she ends up just as alone as you are. And yet you think that your feelings of rejection or loneliness are somehow more valid than hers?

    I tried to explain that before to some of the guys on here who act like women are the only gatekeepers to sex and relationships.

    Women are rejected for short term and long term relationships all the time. It doesn’t have to be overt rejection. It can simply be the rejection in the form of lack of any attention and lack of pursuit by the man.

    Goes on all the time. Women don’t have all the power.

    Only wimpy male losers think that.

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  342. on June 23, 2009 at 9:17 pm Neon Meat Dream of a Octafish

    Heavy Women Have Lower Quality Relationships, But Same Is Not True For Men, Study Finds
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090623091125.htm

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  343. Hey, another one of the “Hundreds of Attempts” Squad! Same here, and I *do* like heavy women anyway. My latest operation is to “clear” my energy and become happier, which should raise my percentage some. I don’t really have the “unwanted attention” problem either, although I have had some quasi-invitations (conventionally-unattractive women lingering near me in stores, etc.) I still have to initiate EVERYTHING, though.

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  344. We’re talking “heavy” not “curvy”. I’ll basically date anyone who’ll engage with me in that type of interaction, and I tend to value abstractions like friendliness, amiability, etc. It’s true that if I were more impressive, more conventional women would be nice to me “in that way”, but I *don’t* have a problem with 5’0″-5’3″ 180lbs, which is nowhere NEAR Toccara. I’ve dated thin women who were unhappy, depressed wrecks, and fat women who were well-adjusted, bright, and giving, and the only common denominator was that none of them were hot-hot-hot, although my first two GFs (the submissive condomless ones) were 7s who didn’t know it and never dressed or made up enough to show it.

    I have, as previously noted, a visible disability, and I’ve dated slightly disabled women, who were both fat and had difficulty walking at a normal pace, but no one really disabled. I suppose I absolutely couldn’t handle someone with active communicable disease, or who wasn’t born a woman, but I think as a survivor of multiple terror attacks I could handle dating someone with a lot of scarring, including facial scarring, or missing limbs, maybe even a colostomy. Bodies are vulnerable things, for all the beauty of some of them.

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  345. Damn, that’s some orgasmically mellifluous writing, you eloquent motherfucker.

    I jizzed my pants.

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  346. Why this advice is right on…for the 1% of males smart enough to find it, read it and follow it:

    About 6 months ago a 19 year old decided that we were “best friends” and would want to go for walks or to the theater. She had a boyfriend, which made me accept that it was all platonic. She and a friend would ask to stay in my guest bedroom some nights when their dorm was closed and they’d been at a disco. I didn’t mind because I quickly had my own 24 year old girlfriend who was better looking, smarter, etc. But she did have great legs.

    I had the impression that she wanted to have me as a wise mentor she could talk with when needing advice, etc.

    But ten days ago she sent a text “I can’t keep using you for the guest bedroom when I know I’d never come over earlier than 2AM to cook for you or watch TV because I just don’t see you that way”. Apparently she meant we could still otherwise be friends but I told her quickly this would not be the case. This meant that there never really was a platonic friendship and I could have actually turned her off by being OK with that in the first place. Either way, I had wasted my time entirely. Having known her was a minus. Middle aged guys don’t need to flatter themselves that they have coed friends who aren’t doing them.

    Another time, back in the USA, I was telling a young Republican woman in San Francisco, online next to me at Jamba Juice, that dating in SF was rough for a Republican man. She chimed in “Tell me about it…I’m also having the same problem, albeit with men in my own age range”. She clearly wanted me to accept that vicious comment and happily keep talking about how we were “fellow Republicans” who thought alike.

    Instead, I made it immediately clear that I completely disagreed with her general attitude toward life and upbringing…saying, after we bought our products and still talked, that “if California Republicans are more against age difference dating than Democrats, I will switch my politics”. It wasn’t friendly in the end and her shield probably went up high as a result – but she won’t be insulting older single guys anymore with such casual remarks that clearly state “you are an an ugly old guy” coated in politically correct sugar.

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  347. “but I *don’t* have a problem with 5′0″-5′3″ 180lbs, which is nowhere NEAR Toccara. ”

    Toccara is 5’9 and between 180 and 166 pounds.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toccara_Jones

    That would make her BMI between 26.6 24.5

    A girl who is 5’3″ and 180 lbs would have a BMI of 31.9… much more for a 5’1 woman.

    Like I said before, men have little idea of the weights of women.

    Toccara at her heaviest just looks like an everyday girl with large, natural, sagging boobs. http://plussizediscountclothing.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/model-toccara-jones.jpg

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  348. […] Die sexual harassment Gesetze in den USA gelten vermutlich nur für Beta-Männer. Also die feministische Gesellschaft ist gegen Beta-Männer. Alpha-Männer werden vom Feminismus […]

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  349. […] a Comment Tags: Liv Lindeland 1. Schweden ist ziemlich feministisch. Aber es hat auch gute Seiten: “The only good thing about “progessive” Sweden is that there’s no such thing as […]

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  350. Yeah I gotta say I don’t agree with this post. It’s because 9s and 10s are hit on by every single shmuck out there that they have perpetual bitch shields up. If I want one to pass me the half and half at starbucks, she thinks I want to get into her pants. Um maybe next time honey, right now I just want my fucking coffee.

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